Match Reaction vs The 'Ammers (away).

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Well done Theo, Poldi and Cazorla.

Arsenal. :bow:

Top of the league. :scarf:

[Ollie the Optimist]

cracking comeback. Giroud very good when has podolski next to him. podolski a game changer but BFG, Arteta, Ozil all superb but Santi was MOTM.

great win. back to the top

[Ollie the Optimist]

and another thing, how many red cards are teams going to avoid against us? in the last 3 matches, there should have been 4 red cards. toure, ramies, mikel and today o'brien should have gone for a second yellow. its becoming a joke

[Darknight02]

Come on you GOONERS!

That will have done the boys confidence a world of good.

Hopefully this gets our season back on track.

Sir Ches kept us in it despite a mistake.

Giroud was absolutely awful in front of goal and was struggling with his touch and finishing although he laid a stunning assist for Podolski's goal.

Arteta I thought was brilliant and holding things in the middle of the park after Ramsey went off especially. He was essentially a lone centre mid with everyone else forward.

Podolski made a difference as you know he's always a threat with his shooting ability. And scored a goal and assisted Theo.

Theo - a powerful header and a good (lucky) finish. Stretched them. Looks best when he's coming in.

MOTM though, without a shadow of a doubt - Cazorla. Struggling at the start on the flanks. As soon as he moved to the middle, changed the game with vision, control, passing both short and long range and absolutely sublime.

Wenger now needs to decide on his first team.

For my money's worth, give Ozil a break. Get Ramsey a break with his injury.

Arteta, Flamini/Wilshere, Cazorla in the middle with Cazorla in the playmaker role. Walcott and Podolski supporting the striker.

I hope for goodness sake that Wenger doesn't rest on his laurels and tries to go all out for a striker like Diego Costa.

[milla]

Santi MOTM.
Feo finally found his shooting boots.
Great cameo for Pod.
Giroud is off form and tired, bench him against Newcastle.
The rest of the team are good but wasteful IMO. Bring on Barcodes :scarf: :jumpnana: :penguin: :coffee:

[Marc Overmars]

Didn't see the game.

Much needed 3 points though and great to bag our first win this season coming from behind.

Really tough game against the Barcodes on Sunday now. Come on you Gunners!

[milla]

Cazorla should definitely starts at CAM role, move Ozil to the left or rotate them. :coffee:

[Letters]

*phew*

[Master Splinter]

Take out the little period after West Ham scored and we were pushing for the equaliser and that was a good performance. One of the best in a while.

The game should have been well and truly over at half time. It was inevitable after dominating that West Ham would score. The response was great.

Theo was amateurish with his passing and basic possession play at times (and with his first-half finishing), but he can now be relied upon to make a difference in the final third. His output has been impressive so far this season.

Similarly, Podolski has looked really good in the little match time he has had and was a real force when he came on. He was direct, involved all over and the cross and finish were expected of a player of his pedigree.

Cazorla was fantastic today and hopefully he has got back into the rhythm of things now going forward.

Gibbs, Ramsey and Arteta had good games too. The defence was fine again apart from Szczesny's mistake.

Giroud and Ozil sadly continued their subdued form, despite a few moments of quality. No harm in dropping Ozil at the moment. Giroud being dropped could still ruin the shape, though.

Arsenal :bow:.

Theo :bow:.

Podolski :bow:.

Cazorla :bow:.

[BOBN]

Thats what having athletes in the side does for you.

Pace and power trumps these nimble passing nothing players in the final third in this league. Our plentiful football snob supporters :pal:

Wenger got out of jail. They tried to act as if Ramsey going off was doomsday. Should have made that change ages before.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

WE WILL FINISH 2013 TOP OF THE LEAGUE.

JUST LET THAT SINK IN.

[GP]

WE WILL FINISH 2014 TOP OF THE LEAGUE.

JUST LET THAT SINK IN.

Some time machine you got there.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Great result.

I thought Arteta had another steady game....and despite being accused of being inadequate and only passing backwards recently, he had another good game.

I think Cazorla seems back on it although I think too much is being made of him playing in the centre. There were plenty of games where he was devastating from the left last season and he was actually very good in the first half too before he moved in field.

Theo's goal was the catalyst and gave us the momentum to play a bit more freely. West Ham started to get their tails up in the second half and were a lot less organised and more expansive and those were contributing factors in the final quarter up turn.

Where I would agree is that Podolski should play more than he does and when he does play, he should go wide left with Cazorla naturally coming in field. I'm not sure where that leaves Ozil, if everyone is fit and there is no need for rotation though.....

Perhaps we simply have to choose between Ozil and Cazorla.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

:haha: Excitement got too much for me.

[Dr Singh]

Delighted with the the win today, but Wenger has really shocked me with his tactical ineptitude over the last 2 games.

I was stunned he played 10 out of the 11 who played all 90 minutes 3 days ago. Obviously Cazorla was the bright spark because he was the only guy who hadn't been run into the ground. I feel that Ramsey's injury was preventable, and it's no surprise that Ozil and Giroud are receiving so much flack when they've carried us for must of this season.

Poldi came on for Ramsey on minute 65 DUE TO INJURY and changed the game. You all know he wouldn't have come on until closer to the 75th minute if Ramsey didn't get injured. The outcome may not have been the same.

Having said that, I'm delighted the team managed to win and over-turn what was looking like a lost cause. Great display by the guys out there by the final whistle.

Poldi, Cazorla and Walcott just have such a beautiful balance about them. They all look to shoot and finish when possible, and Giroud constantly looks to play them in. It just works.

[fakeyank]

Not to rain on the parade but I think we should have come off the blocks looking for the win. Dont see the killer instinct a team needs to win the PL.. I can see us losing steam very very soon. Dont see much different in this squad compared to the last 6-7 seasons.

Good win though. 4th place should not be hard to secure.

[Bumble]

Should have been comfortable at half time but could easily have been three down in the second half. We have there keeper to thank really. Had he not fluffed the easy save then I think it could easily have turned into one of those games. That goal sparked us in the second half.

3 points in the bag so that's good. Think Newcastle game could be a cracker.

[Darknight02]

Made the point somewhere else, but when was the last time we had a proper pacey winger like Navas?

Pires and Overmars are probably the only ones in the Wenger era. With the change in players we have, I wish we had a quick and pacey tricky winger. Someone like Di Maria I really wonder whether he'd be a better buy than a proper striker.

Hmmm

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

What I would ask mate is whether replacing Cazorla/Podolski/Theo with a Di Maria/Reus/Navas would make us stronger than replacing Giroud with a top class / world class forward, ala Suarez/Higuain/Benzema?

[Darknight02]

Good point mate. You're right. On balance I'd go for a top class striker. But who's available?

Diego Costa is the one I'd go for. Or possibly that young Anderlecht striker with pace who looks very very useful. Not sure whether Benzema/Higuain would be available.

Who'd you think is the best team we have?

[milla]

What I would ask mate is whether replacing Cazorla/Podolski/Theo with a Di Maria/Reus/Navas would make us stronger than replacing Giroud with a top class / world class forward, ala Suarez/Higuain/Benzema?

Di Maria might be available, it's well known he is not happy warming the bench at Real Madrid. No way we will get Reus in mid season, he will probably be going to Barcelona anyway. :coffee:

[selassie]

Not to rain on the parade but I think we should have come off the blocks looking for the win. Dont see the killer instinct a team needs to win the PL.. I can see us losing steam very very soon. Dont see much different in this squad compared to the last 6-7 seasons.

Good win though. 4th place should not be hard to secure.

I thought we played pretty well in the first half, we dominated it but failed to take our chances.

Whilst I agree that we lack a killer instinct to win PL I do believe this squad is better than the last few seasons, possibly on par with the 10/11 squad.

I personally think we'll finish 3rd behind Man City and Liverpool.

[Penguin]

What I would ask mate is whether replacing Cazorla/Podolski/Theo with a Di Maria/Reus/Navas would make us stronger than replacing Giroud with a top class / world class forward, ala Suarez/Higuain/Benzema?

We need both, but yeah a CF first. Some people turned up their noses at Reus when he was linked to us a few weeks ago but he would make a world of difference to us, a genuinely world class talent with an excellent goalscoring record.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Having said that, I'm not going to say no to someone like Reus who I think is a special talent but obviously he'd come at some cost.

A forward of the quality we are talking about isn't going to be easy, which is one of the many reasons I like the idea of signing Costa.

I like the Italian Bergkamp (forgive me!) Giuseppe Rossi who is a very dexterous player, with a fantastic touch and can obviously score a goal himself. He isn't the biggest player but I reckon he would make up for it with his clever play.

I would still be keen to test the waters with Lewandowski. What do we have to lose? Long term wise I would like us to keep an eye on the progression of the Belgium two too.

I don't know anything about the Anderlecht dude.... what's his name?

[milla]

I personally think we'll finish 3rd behind Man City and Liverpool.

We will finish above Liverpool, they look good but is a one man team. :coffee:

[GP]

The answer is Draxler.

[milla]

The answer is Draxler.

The Germans will not sell in mid season. The players (Reus and Draxler) are content, they are still in CL and the clubs are fighting for CL spot next year. No way they will leave mid season. :coffee:

[GP]

So? Get him in the summer, then.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

We need both, but yeah a CF first. Some people turned up their noses at Reus when he was linked to us a few weeks ago but he would make a world of difference to us, a genuinely world class talent with an excellent goalscoring record.

I think that is debatable. Having said that, you always make room for exceptional quality in a squad I believe.

In regards to the quality we are talking about if it is a question of 40 million on a wide man or 40 million on a forward then it is an easy choice for me.

That is since, most of us believe we will not spend 40 million on two individual players, neither do I think we need to unless they are both of a quality which is quite exceptional.

[Penguin]

So? Get him in the summer, then.
:lol:

[Darknight02]

Agree with all you guys and gal (milla?).

Would love to get Reus - a player who we can seriously mould into either a nippy number 9 or a 10 in my opinion or a wide forward.

But as you say, I think Arsenal should go all out for Costa in January and try and activate his buy-out clause. A big striker signing in January will re-energise this team. And if we could get a fast out and out winger then that would be a sensational team.

I think Ozil has performed great but no doubt he has not fully lived up to his potential. I'd forgive him a bit given it is a completely new league etc. But even today, he orchestrated some fantastic moves which Giroud couldn't finish with balls across the box. The first move which he orchestrated with Cazorla was sublime.

You can't help but think he would benefit so much from having some runners to release on either flank.

The Belgian young striker who I think may be a diamond is Michy Batshui (sp.?)

[selassie]

We will finish above Liverpool, they look good but is a one man team. :coffee:

I respect your opinion and all but they genuinely aren't a one man team. Sure they have the league's best player in incredible form, but their supporting cast is not to be laughed at, Sturridge is an established PL striker who score for fun, he would walk into our team. Coutinho is a great young player, Sterling is pretty decent too. Their midfield isn't great, but Gerrard has the experience and the odd world class performance in him, Lucas and Henderson are just grafters but they know PL. Defensively they are solid, no real stand out performers though I do like the look of Sakho. They have a very balanced team IMHO.

The reason I believe they will finish above us is because they thrash the lesser sides and generally fare OK in the BIG games, their record in the big games is better than ours, has been for a while even though they haven't made top 4 for years!

I maybe wrong, I just have this feeling that they will strongly challenge this year.

[milla]

So? Get him in the summer, then.

OK :penguin:

[milla]

I respect your opinion and all but they genuinely aren't a one man team. Sure they have the league's best player in incredible form, but their supporting cast is not to be laughed at, Sturridge is an established PL striker who score for fun, he would walk into our team. Coutinho is a great young player, Sterling is pretty decent too. Their midfield isn't great, but Gerrard has the experience and the odd world class performance in him, Lucas and Henderson are just grafters but they know PL. Defensively they are solid, no real stand out performers though I do like the look of Sakho. They have a very balanced team IMHO.

The reason I believe they will finish above us is because they thrash the lesser sides and generally fare OK in the BIG games, their record in the big games is better than ours, has been for a while even though they haven't made top 4 for years!

I maybe wrong, I just have this feeling that they will strongly challenge this year.

I have to disagree with Gerrard though, the reason their midfield look decent is because Gerrard is not there. This is a similar case for Raul last few years in Madrid. :coffee:

[Darknight02]

I agree with you Selassie. The defense is the weakest.

Their attacking options are excellent. Agree on Sterling and Coutinho and Sturridge who all can produce the goods if they are set up to their strengths. Sterling is fast with no fear and will easily get in between defenders, and so will Coutinho. This is especially true when you have a player like Suarez who will pull central defenders left right and centre due to his quality.

The biggest concern with them is that Suarez is playing on such a higher plane. There are very few players - putting aside Messi and Ronaldo - who I've seen play at that level. The original Ronaldo for Barcelona, Titi for us in 04, Pires in 02, Bergkamp in 98. And Suarez is playing at that level no doubt. You only have to look at the goals he is scoring. They will challenge no doubt.

[Darknight02]

Agree with Milla regarding Gerrard.

He doesn't have the energy or the legs anymore. He is just too immobile and just relies on spraying long passes now.

They look a far better team without him.

[selassie]

Having said that, I'm not going to say no to someone like Reus who I think is a special talent but obviously he'd come at some cost.

A forward of the quality we are talking about isn't going to be easy, which is one of the many reasons I like the idea of signing Costa.

I like the Italian Bergkamp (forgive me!) Giuseppe Rossi who is a very dexterous player, with a fantastic touch and can obviously score a goal himself. He isn't the biggest player but I reckon he would make up for it with his clever play.

I would still be keen to test the waters with Lewandowski. What do we have to lose? Long term wise I would like us to keep an eye on the progression of the Belgium two too.

I don't know anything about the Anderlecht dude.... what's his name?

I would love us to sign Reus. I think he is ripe for converting into a Centre Forward and has pretty much every attribute we could wish for in a player. I genuinely believe we could sign him but we would need to be pay the market rate and move fast. I think he could be the one big signing we crave for in the Summer.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I don't really understand the school of thought that he could be a CF here..... and how much do people think he will cost out of interest?

[Darknight02]

I think he could be a CF in the mould of someone like Aguero - he's very quick on his fit, can play long and short passes and reads the game beautifully. Like Mueller (Bayern), he's very clever in terms of the positions he picks and the space he gets into. Think Mueller is one of the most under-rated players around. And I think Reus is like that.

I don't think Reus could ever play up by himself. He doesn't in my opinion have the engine or the strength to do it. But off the shoulder of another striker, he's got all the attributes as Selassie says.

He'd cost north of 40 million in my opinion.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I agree about Muller. He is underrated and very clever.

I guess how I should phrase my question is, can Reus play CF in a 433 since that is the formation we play currently. Let us assume for arguments sake it will remain.....

I imagine if we were going to play a formation that allows for 2 forwards, that a number of our players would be able to slot in and occupy one of the positions.

[milla]

I would love us to sign Reus. I think he is ripe for converting into a Centre Forward and has pretty much every attribute we could wish for in a player. I genuinely believe we could sign him but we would need to be pay the market rate and move fast. I think he could be the one big signing we crave for in the Summer.

:gp:

This is what I have been telling everyone but people here keep saying he is best as winger/wide forward. Reus style of play is perfect for Wengerball, fake no9 who can play anywhere up front and deadly in the penalty box.

[milla]

I think he could be a CF in the mould of someone like Aguero - he's very quick on his fit, can play long and short passes and reads the game beautifully. Like Mueller (Bayern), he's very clever in terms of the positions he picks and the space he gets into. Think Mueller is one of the most under-rated players around. And I think Reus is like that.

I don't think Reus could ever play up by himself. He doesn't in my opinion have the engine or the strength to do it. But off the shoulder of another striker, he's got all the attributes as Selassie says.

He'd cost north of 40 million in my opinion.

Love Muller but we don't need him (Munich will never sell him). We got Ramsey who just turned 23 today and Eisfield looks set to replicate Muller (they are carbon copy in style and the way they time their run into the box).

[IBK]

So relieved by this result, but we have to take some lessons from it. Wenger cannot play the likes of Giroud, Ramsey, Ozil into the ground and expect us to perform to the level our football requires. We need to muster more directness and tempo to put games to bed because for all our possession in the first half we were profligate and then West Ham - despite being down at the bottom of the league and finding it hard generally to score -should have been 2-0 up and we were unlikely to come back from that. Better teams would have punished us.

Poldi was a game changer but would he have been on the pitch but for Wenger's hand being forced by injury? Key players need resting and Newcastle will be a harder test than this lot.

[Penguin]

I think that is debatable. Having said that, you always make room for exceptional quality in a squad I believe.

In regards to the quality we are talking about if it is a question of 40 million on a wide man or 40 million on a forward then it is an easy choice for me.

That is since, most of us believe we will not spend 40 million on two individual players, neither do I think we need to unless they are both of a quality which is quite exceptional.
Some people thought it was debatable that we needed a first choice striker over Giroud a couple of months ago. Theo and Poldolski are good players but not great ones. There's a lot of room for improvement there.

I agree with you if we had to choose between a £40m CF and a £40m wide forward. We've already spent that kind of money on the wrong player. A lot of us spent the summer saying that we didn't need Ozil and that we needed one or two forwards and in the end we've had to move Cazorla on the left to accommodate Ozil, resulting in Santi stinking up the place on the left. It hasn't worked.

We don't even need to spend that kind of money, before the last transfer window I didn't think we'd spend more than £20m on one player. We can still find great players for that price, you just have to look harder.

As for playing Reus as the CF - he definitely has all the raw ingredients but you can never tell unless it's tried. Henry was a winger too before he joined us.

[milla]

:penguin:

:gp:

[milla]

It looks [serious]. It looks like a thigh strain. I don't know how serious the thigh strain is but the Christmas period certainly is over for him. It was his birthday today.

So Ramsey is out for the weekends and probably on the new years eve as well. Apparently Rozza also has a small injury.

[Darknight02]

Not too upset about that. Would give Cazorla a chance to build up some form. And would give Ramsey a chance to have a rest and come back fresher given that he has gone off the boil a bit.

Mind you against City, Chelsea and again today, Ramsey continued to play some stunning through balls.

[Master Splinter]

So Ramsey is out for the weekends and probably on the new years eve as well. Apparently Rozza also has a small injury. :coffee:

Rosicky's is minor. Hopefully he and Koscielny are back for Newcastle.

Why does it matter if Ramsey is out on New Year's Eve? :coffee:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Some people thought it was debatable that we needed a first choice striker over Giroud a couple of months ago. Theo and Poldolski are good players but not great ones. There's a lot of room for improvement there.

I agree with you if we had to choose between a £40m CF and a £40m wide forward. We've already spent that kind of money on the wrong player. A lot of us spent the summer saying that we didn't need Ozil and that we needed one or two forwards and in the end we've had to move Cazorla on the left to accommodate Ozil, resulting in Santi stinking up the place on the left. It hasn't worked.

We don't even need to spend that kind of money, before the last transfer window I didn't think we'd spend more than £20m on one player. We can still find great players for that price, you just have to look harder.

As for playing Reus as the CF - he definitely has all the raw ingredients but you can never tell unless it's tried. Henry was a winger too before he joined us.

The debate over our forward options is very different to our debate over our wide options....especially considering we have Cazorla, Podolski, Ozil, Walcott and Gnabry who can all do a convincing job wide and only 1 man who can do a convincing job at CF....and even that was up for more debate at the time.

Cazorla played a heck of a lot wide left last season. Even if we are accommodating Ozil by playing Santi left now, I think it is very unfair to attribute Santi's poor form to Ozil and 'shifting' Santi to a position he actually plays more times than not.

Henry was 6'2 had pace, power, and all the ball ability in the world. Reus doesn't have anything like the power or even pace. If we are suggesting giving him a free role (like Cronaldo or Bale at Spurs) then fine, but I really have been yet to be convinced by the idea of Reus as a CF in a 433. I just can't get my head round why so many think it's a great idea.

[fakeyank]

Think the injury to Rambo is a blessing in disguise. We have wheelchair coming back, Arteta, Santi, Flamini and Rosicky to play in the middle...

And Podolski is awesome :cloud9:

[LDG]

:yippee:

Was sat around a table of relatives passing around lumpy cold mashed potato when I heard the result.

Most of them are spuds too.

Irony at it's best.

:dance:

[Letters]

Alanis :bow:

[selassie]

I don't really understand the school of thought that he could be a CF here..... and how much do people think he will cost out of interest?

Well he's fairly strong, quick, great with both feet & good in the air. He plays off or alongside Lewandowski quite a bit for Dortmund now so it wouldn't be alien to him.

I am sure I read he has a 40million buyout clause in his contract, I would say that is a fair valuation of him in the current market & he definitely has room to improve. I like him a lot, he's on the fringes of a being a truly world class player IMHO, just needs to find a bit more consistency. Saying that he has already delivered for both Dortmund & Germany and is pretty much first choice for Germany now.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I find it a little simplistic view, even if it would work in practice. Not sure it would serve him any better playing CF than him playing on the left. You have to be more than fairly strong to pull it off in the prem. You have to be a physical match for the Centre halves in the prem who are typically the strongest players in the division.....unless we are happy with our CF being totally physically dominated for the entire 90 minutes.

AT Dortmund he starts on the left....never mind what actually happens when they attack. If it is naturally his game to get beyond the lines and link up with another more powerful player then he can do so without actually starting as the CF imo.

I do find it strange that you believe 40 million to be a fair valuation considering some of the other views you've expressed. I don't think the valuation is too far north of what he is worth, but I'm not quite sure he is worth 40 million to our team as it is.

[milla]

You can't expect Reus to operates like Girourd or Bendtner but much more like Suarez or Aguero is now. His quoted price is in EUR not GBP imo.

[GP]

Dortmund won't let him go for much less than that.

If you want players of his quality, that's what you have to pay.

[milla]

After Gotze and Lewandowski you can bet your house Dortmund will not let Reus go cheaply.

[Penguin]

The debate over our forward options is very different to our debate over our wide options....especially considering we have Cazorla, Podolski, Ozil, Walcott and Gnabry who can all do a convincing job wide and only 1 man who can do a convincing job at CF....and even that was up for more debate at the time.

Cazorla played a heck of a lot wide left last season. Even if we are accommodating Ozil by playing Santi left now, I think it is very unfair to attribute Santi's poor form to Ozil and 'shifting' Santi to a position he actually plays more times than not.

Oh, I do agree that getting a striker is a priority. Although technically we do have Podolski and Bendtner who can play as a CF too. As for our wide options you could say we can play Cazorla, Ozil, Rosicky, Ramsey, and Wilshere there but that's just playing players out of position, and they don't play there particularly well. It's like saying we can play Flamini at left back - we all know he can play there but we only want him there as cover in an emergency and not as a regular role over a season which our CAMs have been doing. Theo are Podolski are fine there but as I said before I don't think they are top level forwards and there is a lot of scope for improvement.

Cazorla's best position for us is right behind the striker regardless of where he has played before. Even when he's playing well on the wing he plays far too deep and central. He gets freedom to move around but usually comes infield to play a bit of tippy tappy triangles in front of the opponent's box which only helps us keep possession and doesn't normally contribute to breaking them down. It also means that when Ozil gets the ball on the counter there's usually only two players in front of him - Giroud and Theo - because Cazorla's in line with him or drifting somewhere else when he receives the ball. That's a waste of Ozil's best talent with his vision, especially since Giroud is slow and always runs towards the ball. So basically by playing Santi there we are restricting our two best playmakers rather than getting the best out of them.


Henry was 6'2 had pace, power, and all the ball ability in the world. Reus doesn't have anything like the power or even pace. If we are suggesting giving him a free role (like Cronaldo or Bale at Spurs) then fine, but I really have been yet to be convinced by the idea of Reus as a CF in a 433. I just can't get my head round why so many think it's a great idea.

Reus isn't a speed freak like Henry was but he does have a very good turn of pace and acceleration. He's also got great balance and is hard to shake off the ball like a lot of 'small' European attackers nowadays. Physically he's certainly no worse than Suarez or RvP so I can't see that being an issue. It's hard how well he'd do without actually seeing him play there so I personally wouldn't sign him specifically as a CF. But as a wide forward he's lightyears ahead of anyone we've got so it's a no-brainer if we've got enough cash.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

That's why I said to play CF 'convincingly'. I don't feel Walcott or Podolski have....least not for a lengthy period of time. Don't get me started on the great Dane. I was quite specific about our wide options too. I mentioned Cazorla, Ozil, Podolski, Gnabry and Walcott and not Rosicky, Ramsey or Wilshere because I feel the former group have played there convincingly and can continue to do so if asked to.

I will agree to disagree with many on Cazorla's positioning.

Suarez and RvP are tough boys. Anyone who has met RvP will tell you he has quite the stature and is 6'2 whilst Suarez has great balance, but also great strength and is constantly willing to knock anyone in the ground over to score, be it the opposition, the ref, the goaly, a little girl in the stand.... Anyone who points to Aguero or Tevez would be completely missing the fact both of those guys like Suarez give as good as they get and more so and both are powerful players. I've seen the pair of them regularly knock over defenders twice their size. Without that power they would be ineffective in that position and that is despite their ability as footballers.

The wide left position is probably the best served in the squad with Podolski, Cazorla and Ozil all able to play there so I am a little surprised quite so many would spend whatever it would take to sign Reus and playing him left or even more unbelievably CF.

[BOBN]

Henry was 6'2 had pace, power, and all the ball ability in the world. Reus doesn't have anything like the power or even pace. If we are suggesting giving him a free role (like Cronaldo or Bale at Spurs) then fine, but I really have been yet to be convinced by the idea of Reus as a CF in a 433. I just can't get my head round why so many think it's a great idea.
Spot on.

Im just glad we have so many grade A coaches and scouts on here.

Just a shame they cant use their skills and find a more sensibly priced prospect.

Until then, lets reserve the mega money for players adept in the position we require them for.

[Power n Glory]

Oh, I do agree that getting a striker is a priority. Although technically we do have Podolski and Bendtner who can play as a CF too. As for our wide options you could say we can play Cazorla, Ozil, Rosicky, Ramsey, and Wilshere there but that's just playing players out of position, and they don't play there particularly well. It's like saying we can play Flamini at left back - we all know he can play there but we only want him there as cover in an emergency and not as a regular role over a season which our CAMs have been doing. Theo are Podolski are fine there but as I said before I don't think they are top level forwards and there is a lot of scope for improvement.

Cazorla's best position for us is right behind the striker regardless of where he has played before. Even when he's playing well on the wing he plays far too deep and central. He gets freedom to move around but usually comes infield to play a bit of tippy tappy triangles in front of the opponent's box which only helps us keep possession and doesn't normally contribute to breaking them down. It also means that when Ozil gets the ball on the counter there's usually only two players in front of him - Giroud and Theo - because Cazorla's in line with him or drifting somewhere else when he receives the ball. That's a waste of Ozil's best talent with his vision, especially since Giroud is slow and always runs towards the ball. So basically by playing Santi there we are restricting our two best playmakers rather than getting the best out of them.



Reus isn't a speed freak like Henry was but he does have a very good turn of pace and acceleration. He's also got great balance and is hard to shake off the ball like a lot of 'small' European attackers nowadays. Physically he's certainly no worse than Suarez or RvP so I can't see that being an issue. It's hard how well he'd do without actually seeing him play there so I personally wouldn't sign him specifically as a CF. But as a wide forward he's lightyears ahead of anyone we've got so it's a no-brainer if we've got enough cash.

:gp: Agree with that. I don't think Cazorla has played so badly this season, he's just been ineffective on the flanks. There is no point in playing a tippy tappy player on the wing. It's problematic. Whenever Rosicky is played wide, he abandons that position completely and moves to the centre. We've seen Jack really struggle there and Cazorla hasn't struggled as badly but he's had no influence. We need direct wingers for that position. Someone that will take on his man and drive into the box, not drift in to play one twos.

Ozil is a mystery to me. He drifts all over the field and only manages to rack up 40/50 passes a game. That's not enough for a central player and he's not having the sort of influence I expected. Seems to me he needs a player like Rosicky or Cazorla next to him in the middle to find him but I really hate having to say that about a £40m world class talent. He needs to make things happen and in due time maybe he'll grow in confidence but I'm beginning to think he's not essential for the middle but moving him out wide will properly result in the same problem we have with Cazorla and what we've had with players like Hleb, Nasri and Arshavin.

We'll see how the next few weeks pan out but once again it looks like we have the square pegs in round holes problem. We have so many talented central players but not enough positions for them.

[Power n Glory]

Spot on.

Im just glad we have so many grade A coaches and scouts on here.

Just a shame they cant use their skills and find a more sensibly priced prospect.

Until then, lets reserve the mega money for players adept in the position we require them for.

:lol:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Not to rain on the parade but I think we should have come off the blocks looking for the win. Dont see the killer instinct a team needs to win the PL.. I can see us losing steam very very soon. Dont see much different in this squad compared to the last 6-7 seasons.

Good win though. 4th place should not be hard to secure.

:doh:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

One more tough game at Toon then we can start resting players.

We have Cardiff at home then the FA cup game, some players can be given 2 weeks off until Villa away.

Should be a good month.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Spot on.

Im just glad we have so many grade A coaches and scouts on here.

Just a shame they cant use their skills and find a more sensibly priced prospect.

Until then, lets reserve the mega money for players adept in the position we require them for.

I think the idea is interesting if nothing else..... and I wouldn't mind if my reservations were proven unfounded by us actually signing the bloke :d ...but I do struggle with the logic behind it and don't think a strong case has been made.

Even if Reus, like Cronaldo was the flawless player in footballing ability and physical stature that some think him to be, who's to say the best position for him would be CF in a 433. Cronaldo has a free role at Madrid and ostensibly plays from the left without the need to be placed at CF.

If a player is geared as such to being able to best any opponent using any number of his attributes, then it usually doesn't matter where he starts, as long as he is given free reign; or rather, a free role.

That is why players like Suarez, Cronaldo, Bale, Messi can pretty much start anywhere. I don't think that Reus is quite of that ability, even if the actual argument from a few here is that he will be. The advantage of starting from wide is that you don't begin from a positioning which is close to the CB's who want to rough you up and unsettle you. It is far better if you have the time and space to run at players which you are afforded as a result of where you pick the ball up.

For me it is comparable to the reason I don't think Ramsey needs to start as the furthest midfielder forward in spite of his goal tally. If he starts from a deeper position he has the time and space to manoeuvre, ghost into advanced positions when it is unexpected, or run at defenders who are on the back foot.

[Ollie the Optimist]

One more tough game at Toon then we can start resting players.

We have Cardiff at home then the FA cup game, some players can be given 2 weeks off until Villa away.

Should be a good month.

no resting players against spurs. don't care that its the cup at all, its spurs and right now they are shit. lets fucking destroy their season by sending out the best team to hopefully thrash them

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

We can rest the likes of Giroud, Ozil etc as we have players like Podolski back now.

[Penguin]

That's why I said to play CF 'convincingly'. I don't feel Walcott or Podolski have....least not for a lengthy period of time. Don't get me started on the great Dane. I was quite specific about our wide options too. I mentioned Cazorla, Ozil, Podolski, Gnabry and Walcott and not Rosicky, Ramsey or Wilshere because I feel the former group have played there convincingly and can continue to do so if asked to.

I will agree to disagree with many on Cazorla's positioning.

I'm pretty sure Podolski, Theo and even Bendtner could play CF to a decent enough level, but obviously several levels below the best in the business like Suarez or Aguero. But by the same logic Caz/Ozil can play nowhere near the level of the best wide forwards in the world, in fact they play the role completely wrong. Let me be clear, we both already agreed that a striker is the priority, I'm just using that to make my point.

For me Caz/Ozil don't play in the wide positions 'convincingly'. I would put them in the same group as Rosicky, Ramsey and Wilshere because, although they are better at it than those three due to their skill on the ball, they still fall into the same patterns of CAM play in front of the opponents rather than playing on the shoulder of their defence, running at and beating fullbacks and giving us a variation of play. They both do exactly the same thing the three CMs behind them do and It's all very slow and predictable. The fact that Wenger has consistently brought in the same type of player to play in those positions in the last eight years really grates - Hleb, Rosicky, Nasri, Arshavin. None of them were successful apart from Nasri to an extent, but even he played in a central position in his best season for us.


Suarez and RvP are tough boys. Anyone who has met RvP will tell you he has quite the stature and is 6'2 whilst Suarez has great balance, but also great strength and is constantly willing to knock anyone in the ground over to score, be it the opposition, the ref, the goaly, a little girl in the stand.... Anyone who points to Aguero or Tevez would be completely missing the fact both of those guys like Suarez give as good as they get and more so and both are powerful players. I've seen the pair of them regularly knock over defenders twice their size. Without that power they would be ineffective in that position and that is despite their ability as footballers.

The wide left position is probably the best served in the squad with Podolski, Cazorla and Ozil all able to play there so I am a little surprised quite so many would spend whatever it would take to sign Reus and playing him left or even more unbelievably CF.
It's all about balance. I remember seeing Messi go shoulder to shoulder with Vidic, beating him off, staying on his feet and keeping the ball. He can pretty much do that to anyone and he's 5'6 and not particularly well built. I'm not sure what you think of Reus but he's definitely not a lightweight and height has nothing to do with it. And as for the pace, he comfortably beats both Suarez and RvP in that department.

So why get him if we have players that can play there? The same reason we want a world class centre forward - he's a hell of a lot better than anyone we already have and would improve us significantly in an area we are weak in.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Podolski has been poor to say the least the few times he played CF. Walcott has been good in some games and completely ineffective in others, which is what you would expect from a player of his skills in that position. I'm not even going to mention the Dane.

I would really like the stat on how many games Cazorla played wide left last season to be public knowledge. I don't have it unfortunately. I fundamentally disagree with your view on him and Ozil though as I've intimated.

I think if you go back to Narsi's purple patch and note down the number of good games he had from the left you will be surprised. It is a myth in my opinion that he played better in that period in midfield. I acutely remember his best games coming when he started left.

Messi is one of a kind. There is no precedent for what many are suggesting Reus could do simply because it doesn't work effectively in practice. People are using players completely unlike him to build a case and that is because players like him don't play CF in a 433 in the prem imo. The fact you have to mention Messi at all does not help your argument. Reus is certainly no Messi and if he was I would be totally with you.

I know height is not the ball all end all of having power, which is why I used the examples of Tevez and Aguero who both have power. It's not about being lightweight or a powerhouse. You can be somewhere in between, but if you are, you have to have enough to avoid being dominated against big burly CB's in the prem. I'm not convinced Reus does or that his skills and talents are best served trying to give it back to centre halves over 90 minutes.

[milla]

It's all about balance. I remember seeing Messi go shoulder to shoulder with Vidic, beating him off, staying on his feet and keeping the ball. He can pretty much do that to anyone and he's 5'6 and not particularly well built. I'm not sure what you think of Reus but he's definitely not a lightweight and height has nothing to do with it. And as for the pace, he comfortably beats both Suarez and RvP in that department.

So why get him if we have players that can play there? The same reason we want a world class centre forward - he's a hell of a lot better than anyone we already have and would improve us significantly in an area we are weak in.


:penguin:

:gp:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Ironically Reus is probably the only player over Dortmund more unattainable than Lewandowski.....

To say he is a hell of a lot better than Cazorla, Ozil or Podolski on the left is a huge over statement imo.

[BOBN]

Nah, it is just people with opinions. Some of them I agree with some I don't. But there is one thing I've noticed on here for some time now. Most people can express themselves without sounding like superior self righteous cocks.

Whereas you can't.
It is what it is :cheer:

[Underhill and over Grove]

Another good win against a struggling side, but what frustrates me is the feeling that no matter how well we do in these games, it does not matter, because we struggle to beat the best teams, in this and other leagues. What this has meant in past seasons is that we enter a two week period of doom at some point, where we exit the champions league, one or both of the cups, and suffer crippling defeats against one of the "big teams" in the Premier Division.

We have got a very technically gifted midfield, but our options further forward are not so promising, and this is especially frustrating given we seem to finally have sorted out our defensive/defensive midfield issues with Merts, Flamini and Arteta doing well, and Kos and Sir Ches suffering fewer brain farts.

Giroud is an effective forward player in terms of bringing others in to play, but as a striker he lacks that little bit of extra quality to win games, and often fluffs his lines at crucial moments. On the wings Podolski and Walcott are inconsistent and often injured, and this leaves us having to play players out of position to cover. Instead of wondering if we should sign a winger OR a striker, Wenger should be looking to bring in both. Too often in recent games the difference between us and other teams has been that they have a top class striker, and we do not.

I would like to see us sign Reus AND Costa, and for Wenger to play Gnabry and Akpom on the bench instead of Bendtner, who does not want to be here.

[Penguin]

Podolski has been poor to say the least the few times he played CF. Walcott has been good in some games and completely ineffective in others, which is what you would expect from a player of his skills in that position. I'm not even going to mention the Dane.

I would really like the stat on how many games Cazorla played wide left last season to be public knowledge. I don't have it unfortunately. I fundamentally disagree with your view on him and Ozil though as I've intimated.

I think if you go back to Narsi's purple patch and note down the number of good games he had from the left you will be surprised. It is a myth in my opinion that he played better in that period in midfield. I acutely remember his best games coming when he started left.

Messi is one of a kind. There is no precedent for what many are suggesting Reus could do simply because it doesn't work effectively in practice. People are using players completely unlike him to build a case and that is because players like him don't play CF in a 433 in the prem imo. The fact you have to mention Messi at all does not help your argument. Reus is certainly no Messi and if he was I would be totally with you.

I know height is not the ball all end all of having power, which is why I used the examples of Tevez and Aguero who both have power. It's not about being lightweight or a powerhouse. You can be somewhere in between, but if you are, you have to have enough to avoid being dominated against big burly CB's in the prem. I'm not convinced Reus does or that his skills and talents are best served trying to give it back to centre halves over 90 minutes.

As a short guy being hard to knock off the ball (which is what I was talking about rather than ability), Messi isn't a one of a kind. There are tons of them around including Gotze, Iniesta and Ribery. They're skinny midgets but they can make players like Essien look silly when they hold them off and shield the ball so effortlessly. Reus has that in his locker and has the ball control to boot.

Reus isn't even short at 5'11 and can handle the physical side of the game. Shorter strikers have succeeded in the Premier League like Owen, Defoe, Robbie Keane and even Wrighty. You dont have to be built like a tank.

Ironically Reus is probably the only player over Dortmund more unattainable than Lewandowski.....

To say he is a hell of a lot better than Cazorla, Ozil or Podolski on the left is a huge over statement imo.
He has a buy out clause so he is attainable, as long as he wants to leave.

[LDG]

Yesterday's game is a case in point that we need another striker who can consistently finish off the chances we create.

Against sides like West Ham, it's fine as we will (as a general rule) create enough chances to win the game. But our goals to chances ratio is horrendous (I have no idea of the actual stat, but I assume I'm correct).

In the big games vs Chelsea etc, you only get a couple of chances, and you have to bury them of drop points. Early season we had that knack, but the last 6 games or so, we have really suffered for not having more finishing ability.

Hopefully Theo and Pod can provide more support to the out of form (in the scoring department) Giroud, but a striker is an absolute must on 1st January.

[Grebbo]

I thought we played well yesterday, first time in a while that I thought we played good football. I guess playing against a shit team helps!

Created loads of chances with some great moves, could've scored 6 if we were more clinical up front.

[GP]

West Ham can't be that shit, they put 3 past Spurs...



:haha:

[Power n Glory]

Giroud needs to be rested. You can see the frustration with all the misses. The first shot he hit well wide was telling and the look on Wenger's face says it all. He has decisions to make and he has to be ruthless with the team selection or we'll suffer. He doesn't want to shake up the core too much but we've had a few players underperforming for a while now. The timing of Pod and Walcott's return is perfect.

[BOBN]

We have got a very technically gifted midfield, but our options further forward are not so promising, and this is especially frustrating given we seem to finally have sorted out our defensive/defensive midfield issues with Merts, Flamini and Arteta doing well, and Kos and Sir Ches suffering fewer brain farts.

Giroud is an effective forward player in terms of bringing others in to play, but as a striker he lacks that little bit of extra quality to win games, and often fluffs his lines at crucial moments. On the wings Podolski and Walcott are inconsistent and often injured, and this leaves us having to play players out of position to cover. Instead of wondering if we should sign a winger OR a striker, Wenger should be looking to bring in both. Too often in recent games the difference between us and other teams has been that they have a top class striker, and we do not.


Thats on Wenger. Firstly he collects several similar types. Yes the midfielders are technically gifted to an extent (Wilshere and Ramsey struggle with basic technical things pretty often) but theres little balance. He could have added more athletic midfielders who could mix things up going foward let alone defensively but he has an obsession with a particular type.

Secondly, even when fit we know Wenger likes at least one "technical" player on one of the wings so I doubt Walcott and Podolski have had much chance to impress in tandem. Yesterday his hand was forced thats all.

Wenger needs to break free of his possession addiction if an additional winger would chance things. Right now another winger would probably leave Podolski and Walcott on the bench and we'll again be looking for one man to fix our ills.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

We had to do major restructuring over the summer. We let 20+ players go and had to reconfigure the dimensions of the squad. We bought in Ozil which elevated us back to the top, now is the time to sprinkle the squad with more top players, starting with a striker. This would make our options going forward more promising.

The first stage of restructuring is complete following the stadium move. We now move onto the second stage. Let's see what we do in the transfer window.

[selassie]

I find it a little simplistic view, even if it would work in practice. Not sure it would serve him any better playing CF than him playing on the left. You have to be more than fairly strong to pull it off in the prem. You have to be a physical match for the Centre halves in the prem who are typically the strongest players in the division.....unless we are happy with our CF being totally physically dominated for the entire 90 minutes.

AT Dortmund he starts on the left....never mind what actually happens when they attack. If it is naturally his game to get beyond the lines and link up with another more powerful player then he can do so without actually starting as the CF imo.

I do find it strange that you believe 40 million to be a fair valuation considering some of the other views you've expressed. I don't think the valuation is too far north of what he is worth, but I'm not quite sure he is worth 40 million to our team as it is.

Well that's your opinion. I find your view pretty simplistic that you feel a CF has to be a physical match for the Centre Halves. Reus is more in the mould of say Aguero or Suarez, he's not a brute but is no weakling either. Where players like Reus, Suarez or Aguero excel are in their movement and finishing, if you have that you will succeed in PL. Of course they have the added advantage of having upper body strength, but on the ground is where they excel.

If you watch Dortmund closely whilst Reus does start from the left he very much roams across the frontline, not too dissimilar to Bale actually.

What's strange about my valuation of Reus? He's a proven performer in CL, he has had 2 very good seasons for Dortmund in CL playing at a high level, he is a proven performer in Bundesliga, he is a starter for Germany who IMHO are currently the best national side in the world. He's on the cusp of being credited as a world class player who has delivered for a sustained period of time.

Reus would fit into our game easily IMHO, he's a highly technical player with world class movement and is a great finisher, he's also very good from set pieces.

[Xhaka Can’t]

West Ham can't be that shit, they put 3 past Spurs...



:haha:

Post of 2013 lol:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

As a short guy being hard to knock off the ball (which is what I was talking about rather than ability), Messi isn't a one of a kind. There are tons of them around including Gotze, Iniesta and Ribery. They're skinny midgets but they can make players like Essien look silly when they hold them off and shield the ball so effortlessly. Reus has that in his locker and has the ball control to boot.

Reus isn't even short at 5'11 and can handle the physical side of the game. Shorter strikers have succeeded in the Premier League like Owen, Defoe, Robbie Keane and even Wrighty. You dont have to be built like a tank.

He has a buy out clause so he is attainable, as long as he wants to leave.

Messi plays the false 9 role. His starting position is never anywhere the CB's.....anyone who has watched Barca in the last several years would know that. Is Reus to do the same? Come deep or start from the area our midfield will be? Would he congest an already congested area with our players who look to cut in or come in field anyway? We do not play the ball anywhere near as quickly or fluidly as Barca. Much of this season we have been happy for the opposition to have the ball whilst we bide our time. The absence of a forward presence near the CB, means we would have no focal point up top or anyone to play it off like Giroud has been doing. That means a entire change of dynamics to our play. It is a vastly different way to play...which frankly is not the concern....the concern would be whether a player like Reus can make that work and changing our whole way of playing for a player who there's little evidence for being able to play there.

On the basis of the argument seemingly forged here I cold suggest any player with decent body strength and speed should play CF for the Arsenal, Ribery, Robben, what about draxler? He's quick, skilful with an eye for goal? But that would be a gross over simplification of what it takes to play there in the premier league imo. Nobody in German football has played him there.....have they simply been overlooking something all this time?

Michael Owen flourished before the regular use of the 433 in a 442. If you go back and check the climate of football at the time you will find that to be true. The same goes for Keane, Wright and Defoe who ironically is seldom trusted to played as the lone striker role these days in spite of Spurs being desperate for goals and him having a proven goal scoring record. It is also different when your football education has come from here where you naturally learn how to play against the sort of opposition you find here.

Have you heard Wright talk or seen him play. He would kick you in the nuts if you asked him to take a corner free kick or drop deep into the field for the build up play. The man saw the goal at all times and his every breath was in accordance to putting the ball in the back of the net. You're not telling me Reus is that kind of player?

Pretty much every player has a buyout clause and if not they have a price. That doesn't mean he is attainable in the sphere of reality. Messi has a buyout clause. Nobody thinks he is actually attainable. Wenger is never going to pay 40 million or whatever people say his clause is whilst he has Podolski, Santi and Ozil to play wide left. Never.

To the person who suggested we sign both Reus and Costa that might conceivably cost us 80 million? Whilst Wenger surprised me with the Ozil signing, I don't think it is exactly going to become the norm.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Well that's your opinion. I find your view pretty simplistic that you feel a CF has to be a physical match for the Centre Halves. Reus is more in the mould of say Aguero or Suarez, he's not a brute but is no weakling either. Where players like Reus, Suarez or Aguero excel are in their movement and finishing, if you have that you will succeed in PL. Of course they have the added advantage of having upper body strength, but on the ground is where they excel.

If you watch Dortmund closely whilst Reus does start from the left he very much roams across the frontline, not too dissimilar to Bale actually.

What's strange about my valuation of Reus? He's a proven performer in CL, he has had 2 very good seasons for Dortmund in CL playing at a high level, he is a proven performer in Bundesliga, he is a starter for Germany who IMHO are currently the best national side in the world. He's on the cusp of being credited as a world class player who has delivered for a sustained period of time.

Reus would fit into our game easily IMHO, he's a highly technical player with world class movement and is a great finisher, he's also very good from set pieces.

It is my opinion, well noted. Suarez is a physical match as is Aguero for any defender in the league. It's almost as if a player as skilfully gifted as Suarez can't possibly possess impressive physical strength. Well they do. Please let's not try to lump Reus in with Suarez or Aguero. Aguero would knock anyone on his arse. I wouldn't call either a 'brute' because they both have too much footballing ability to be lumbered with that title.....but imo Suarez and Aguero have the strength of brutes.

So yes. I think in the prem if you want to be amongst the best you do have to be a physical match for the CB's in the league. Not necessarily twice as strong as them to knock them out of your way like some oaf, but strong enough to hold them off, occasionally knock them off, give them the shoulder charge back and simply physical enough to fend them off whilst executing the technical things in your game.

RvP, Rooney, Suarez, Aguero, Negredo, Lukaku, Giroud all have enough about them physically to be successes to greater or lesser extents.

You have pretty much repeated my assertion about Reus. He starts from the left and he gets somewhat of a free role in his actual forward play, which fluent and fluid. SO tell me? Why actually play him from a different position to the one he plays so well from at Dortmund. I repeat, if this is his natural game and it works from where he has been so far (starting from the left), what is the actual need to start him at CF, where the emphasis and starting position changes as its proximity approaches the CB's?

[milla]

Well that's your opinion. I find your view pretty simplistic that you feel a CF has to be a physical match for the Centre Halves. Reus is more in the mould of say Aguero or Suarez, he's not a brute but is no weakling either. Where players like Reus, Suarez or Aguero excel are in their movement and finishing, if you have that you will succeed in PL. Of course they have the added advantage of having upper body strength, but on the ground is where they excel.

If you watch Dortmund closely whilst Reus does start from the left he very much roams across the frontline, not too dissimilar to Bale actually.

What's strange about my valuation of Reus? He's a proven performer in CL, he has had 2 very good seasons for Dortmund in CL playing at a high level, he is a proven performer in Bundesliga, he is a starter for Germany who IMHO are currently the best national side in the world. He's on the cusp of being credited as a world class player who has delivered for a sustained period of time.

Reus would fit into our game easily IMHO, he's a highly technical player with world class movement and is a great finisher, he's also very good from set pieces.

:gp:

[milla]

You have pretty much repeated my assertion about Reus. He starts from the left and he gets somewhat of a free role in his actual forward play, which fluent and fluid. SO tell me? Why actually play him from a different position to the one he plays so well from at Dortmund. I repeat, if this is his natural game and it works from where he has been so far (starting from the left), what is the actual need to start him at CF, where the emphasis and starting position changes as its proximity approaches the CB's?

Isn't that is how Suarez and Aguero play? Despite starting as CF,they drift all over the pitch (free role) and don't like to be squeezed between two CBs.

[Niall_Quinn]

In the end I thought we came back excellently after going behind against the run of play. At no time did I think we wouldn't beat them, we were superior in every department. The ref playing by the rules helped a lot - it makes such a difference to the final score. Good that the crowd was patient with Giroud - he had another poor day, though not through lack of effort, and there's no point getting on his case because he's all we've got right now.

Special mention to the BT commentary team - just awful, had to switch it off and watch in silence.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Isn't that is how Suarez and Aguero play? Despite starting as CF,they drift all over the pitch (free role) and don't like to be squeezed between two CBs. :coffee:

It's not so much a free role they play.... it's just a central position allows more room for moving around. You don't see the likes of Aguero tripping over Yaya Toure's toes because he is planted in the midfield area. They vary their play by coming short, dropping deep or going long as and when the situation requires and they are well equipped to do so. They move according to the play rather than the limitations in their game.

Like I've already said. If the suggestion here is that in giving Reus a free role, you are truly maximising his talents then insisting on him playing CF would appear strange. Positionally speaking, he would be much freer on the left where he can start from an area which is less occupied by the oppositions defenders and where you can really build up a run rather than receiving the ball and feeling the CB's breath on your neck. That is precisely why Cronaldo plays on the left for Real and it has not been criticised or questioned too heavily despite the player being a goal machine of a type we have seldom ever seen throughout history.

[Dr Singh]

It's a simple point really. For someone to be successful as the focal point of an attack in the EPL (433/451 formation), they can be as skilled as anyone, but it's almost a minimum requirement to possess some degree of power.

Suarez, Rooney, Tevez and Aguero are all absolute pitbulls. They aren't the tallest, but they can more than hold their own physically against any CB in the league. It's for this reason they can really showcase their skill as a focal point.

I'd argue that someone like Hernandez, Vela, Walcott, Soldado and even Eduardo would all really struggle to be the focal point of any EPL attack. They lack the minimum strength requirement to be able to hold up the ball. It's not good enough to rely on skill and be a poacher in the EPL, unless you're as good as someone like Messi for sake of argument! It's been seen for ages.

Suarez, Rooney & Aguero all weigh around 80kg. Reus weighs under 70kg, and is thus nearly 2 stone lighter. He's a classy player, but he simply wouldn't be able to hold up and shake off EPL defenders.

Having said all of this - I'd be absolutely elated if we did sign Reus, but I'd be hoping he'd be signed to play on the left wing, and for no other position. His partner in crime Lewandowski is far more what we need.

Due to everything I've said above, I'd also hate the idea of us signing Pato. No thanks. Diego Costa. Hell yes.

[milla]

It's not so much a free role they play.... it's just a central position allows more room for moving around. You don't see the likes of Aguero tripping over Yaya Toure's toes because he is planted in the midfield area. They vary their play by coming short, dropping deep or going long as and when the situation requires and they are well equipped to do so. They move according to the play rather than the limitations in their game.

Like I've already said. If the suggestion here is that in giving Reus a free role, you are truly maximising his talents then insisting on him playing CF would appear strange. Positionally speaking, he would be much freer on the left where he can start from an area which is less occupied by the oppositions defenders and where you can really build up a run rather than receiving the ball and feeling the CB's breath on your neck. That is precisely why Cronaldo plays on the left for Real and it has not been criticised or questioned too heavily despite the player being a goal machine of a type we have seldom ever seen throughout history.

In this case, lets just agree to disagree. :good:

[Power n Glory]

It's a simple point really. For someone to be successful as the focal point of an attack in the EPL (433/451 formation), they can be as skilled as anyone, but it's almost a minimum requirement to possess some degree of power.

Suarez, Rooney, Tevez and Aguero are all absolute pitbulls. They aren't the tallest, but they can more than hold their own physically against any CB in the league. It's for this reason they can really showcase their skill as a focal point.

I'd argue that someone like Hernandez, Vela, Walcott, Soldado and even Eduardo would all really struggle to be the focal point of any EPL attack. They lack the minimum strength requirement to be able to hold up the ball. It's not good enough to rely on skill and be a poacher in the EPL, unless you're as good as someone like Messi for sake of argument! It's been seen for ages.

Suarez, Rooney & Aguero all weigh around 80kg. Reus weighs under 70kg, and is thus nearly 2 stone lighter. He's a classy player, but he simply wouldn't be able to hold up and shake off EPL defenders.

Having said all of this - I'd be absolutely elated if we did sign Reus, but I'd be hoping he'd be signed to play on the left wing, and for no other position. His partner in crime Lewandowski is far more what we need.

Due to everything I've said above, I'd also hate the idea of us signing Pato. No thanks. Diego Costa. Hell yes.

We should have developed Theo into a centre forward earlier in his career so he'd be used to the body contact and know how to hustle up front. His upper body strength would have developed and he'd be used to riding challenges, spinning and skipping away from opponents. That's something you can learn and adapt to. These big lumps we're playing up field, it's where we're going wrong and they'll never be quick or agile enough. We dance around opponents with small technical players in the middle of the park but it all comes to a crashing halt when it falls to the feet of players like Giroud and Chamakh. It's like a brick wall. They just bounce it back to the midfield and try to keep the defenders at bay.

[Özim]

Didn't see the game as was away but expected us to win this so it's no surprise, the tougher one was always going to be Newcastle on Sunday. I see Wenger is blaming our fixture list for our run of 4 games without a win, what a surprise :rolleyes:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

In this case, lets just agree to disagree. :good:

Yup.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

It's a simple point really. For someone to be successful as the focal point of an attack in the EPL (433/451 formation), they can be as skilled as anyone, but it's almost a minimum requirement to possess some degree of power.

Suarez, Rooney, Tevez and Aguero are all absolute pitbulls. They aren't the tallest, but they can more than hold their own physically against any CB in the league. It's for this reason they can really showcase their skill as a focal point.

I'd argue that someone like Hernandez, Vela, Walcott, Soldado and even Eduardo would all really struggle to be the focal point of any EPL attack. They lack the minimum strength requirement to be able to hold up the ball. It's not good enough to rely on skill and be a poacher in the EPL, unless you're as good as someone like Messi for sake of argument! It's been seen for ages.

Suarez, Rooney & Aguero all weigh around 80kg. Reus weighs under 70kg, and is thus nearly 2 stone lighter. He's a classy player, but he simply wouldn't be able to hold up and shake off EPL defenders.

Having said all of this - I'd be absolutely elated if we did sign Reus, but I'd be hoping he'd be signed to play on the left wing, and for no other position. His partner in crime Lewandowski is far more what we need.

Due to everything I've said above, I'd also hate the idea of us signing Pato. No thanks. Diego Costa. Hell yes.

You'd think...

[Letters]

Didn't see the game as was away but expected us to win this so it's no surprise, the tougher one was always going to be Newcastle on Sunday. I see Wenger is blaming our fixture list for our run of 4 games without a win, what a surprise :rolleyes:
I see you're still moaning your tits off despite us being top of the league, what a surprise :rolleyes:

[milla]

It's not Zimm's fault tbh, blame Wenger. :coffee:

[GP]

Blame Wenger for what? Being top of the league?

Ok.

[Mr. Lahey]

I thought we played well for the most part and am happy with the away response to the Chelsea snoozefest. One thing I must say is that Sagna has been our best, most consistent player so far. His crossing has improved tremendously. Great to see Podolski back and getting on the score sheet right away, his intro pretty much changed the game, albeit at the the expense of Ramsay. Walcott continued his nice finishing, the only thing he needs to do is start showing up more consistently in the bigger games, other than that he gets far too much criticism. I thought that once Cazorla was operating down the middle we really started to put the pressure on them. I hope Wenger saw this and will consider playing him centrally more often. Giroud had a shocker and it is apparent we need help here, whether short or long term transfer. I didn't like Ozil's body language throughout the match, he was clearly frustrated with the finishing even though he fluffed a point blank chance himself. Our goal scoring options MUST be considered this transfer window if we want to be serious about the title. Newcastle will be a test but still think we can get a result against them. Win this one and our games against Chelsea/City wont seem to harsh.

[milla]

Mr. Lahey :tiphat:

[Ollie the Optimist]

Didn't see the game as was away but expected us to win this so it's no surprise, the tougher one was always going to be Newcastle on Sunday. I see Wenger is blaming our fixture list for our run of 4 games without a win, what a surprise :rolleyes:

we could win the league this season and you'd moan that its worthless as we lost to city or something. cheer up ffs, we are top of the league. you hated every minute of thinking top four is a trophy yet now when we are finally challenging for the title you are still pissing moaning

[Ollie the Optimist]

Blame Wenger for what? Being top of the league?

Ok.


:haha:

[fakeyank]

I thought we played well for the most part and am happy with the away response to the Chelsea snoozefest. One thing I must say is that Sagna has been our best, most consistent player so far. His crossing has improved tremendously. Great to see Podolski back and getting on the score sheet right away, his intro pretty much changed the game, albeit at the the expense of Ramsay. Walcott continued his nice finishing, the only thing he needs to do is start showing up more consistently in the bigger games, other than that he gets far too much criticism. I thought that once Cazorla was operating down the middle we really started to put the pressure on them. I hope Wenger saw this and will consider playing him centrally more often. Giroud had a shocker and it is apparent we need help here, whether short or long term transfer. I didn't like Ozil's body language throughout the match, he was clearly frustrated with the finishing even though he fluffed a point blank chance himself. Our goal scoring options MUST be considered this transfer window if we want to be serious about the title. Newcastle will be a test but still think we can get a result against them. Win this one and our games against Chelsea/City wont seem to harsh.

:gp:

Sagna must be signed up ASAP!! He has been an absolute beast! Our most consistent performer this season alongside Per.

[Özim]

I see you're still moaning your tits off despite us being top of the league, what a surprise :rolleyes:

Wenger was the one moaning not me :lol:

[Letters]

Wenger was the one moaning not me :lol:
Was he moaning or was he just giving an opinion and you've leapt on it to have another pointless dig because, for now, you've not got much to moan about.
Never mind, hopefully we'll lose tomorrow and you can have a good old moan then.

[Özim]

Was he moaning or was he just giving an opinion and you've leapt on it to have another pointless dig because, for now, you've not got much to moan about.
Never mind, hopefully we'll lose tomorrow and you can have a good old moan then.

Moaning, you wouldn't say that unless you thought you were being hard done by, he's got previous with regards complaining about the fixture list. Instead of looking at his squads failings he always deflects the heat onto something else.

Tomorrow is a tough game now and given that so far we've done badly in those we need to get all 3 points which will be tough.

[Letters]

Can you post the quote of him 'moaning'?

[Özim]

"It has been a difficult period but mainly down to our schedule," Wenger said. "I completely think our schedule has been absolutely horrendous."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25525709

[LDG]

Every manager in the league will bemoan their luck about fixtures. It's a non story.

[Letters]

Every manager in the league will bemoan their luck about fixtures. It's a non story.

Unless you have an anti-Wenger agenda...

What he's said is true, it was a horrible run and we've got another one in March. That's the price of competing at the top level.

[selassie]

It is my opinion, well noted. Suarez is a physical match as is Aguero for any defender in the league. It's almost as if a player as skilfully gifted as Suarez can't possibly possess impressive physical strength. Well they do. Please let's not try to lump Reus in with Suarez or Aguero. Aguero would knock anyone on his arse. I wouldn't call either a 'brute' because they both have too much footballing ability to be lumbered with that title.....but imo Suarez and Aguero have the strength of brutes.

So yes. I think in the prem if you want to be amongst the best you do have to be a physical match for the CB's in the league. Not necessarily twice as strong as them to knock them out of your way like some oaf, but strong enough to hold them off, occasionally knock them off, give them the shoulder charge back and simply physical enough to fend them off whilst executing the technical things in your game.

RvP, Rooney, Suarez, Aguero, Negredo, Lukaku, Giroud all have enough about them physically to be successes to greater or lesser extents.

You have pretty much repeated my assertion about Reus. He starts from the left and he gets somewhat of a free role in his actual forward play, which fluent and fluid. SO tell me? Why actually play him from a different position to the one he plays so well from at Dortmund. I repeat, if this is his natural game and it works from where he has been so far (starting from the left), what is the actual need to start him at CF, where the emphasis and starting position changes as its proximity approaches the CB's?

Why not lump Reus in there? Sure he doesn't have the same physique as say Suarez or Aguero but he has plenty of upper body strength, more in line with say Bale or RVP. We are just arguing over semantics here? You listed alternative players like RVP who has succeeded in PL, OK so Reus is like him then.

I am not entirely clear on what your point is regarding Reus?

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

He's a midfielder. We need a striker :good:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Why not lump Reus in there? Sure he doesn't have the same physique as say Suarez or Aguero but he has plenty of upper body strength, more in line with say Bale or RVP. We are just arguing over semantics here? You listed alternative players like RVP who has succeeded in PL, OK so Reus is like him then.

I am not entirely clear on what your point is regarding Reus?

If you haven't got it by now, I'm not sure you ever will, or even why you are responding at all, lol.

For debates sake, I'll state it again. Reus is not (imho) well suited to playing in the CF position in a 433 or as Dr Singh mentioned a 451. That is a statement of theory. I don't suspect it will ever prove wrong, because I don't think that if a miracle happens and we actually sign the bloke, that Wenger will entertain playing him at CF, or that he will play there long enough to show that he isn't quite right for the role.

I don't think he has anything like the physique or strength of RvP or Bale. Bale appears a light touch because of his diving antics as did the Conartist when he was at Man U prior to Real. That was before he went to Madrid became the second best player in the world and then people were like 'oooooh he's actually quite strong that boy'. Bale and Cronaldo are eerily similar in build in terms of physique, height and frame.

A good friend of mine has worked with Cronaldo (for his sins) on a few commercials and had to tackle him and has told me a few times how tough he is. Not that his physical prowess really needs verifying. RvP I have met on a commercial too and although I didn't have to tackle him (thankfully as he was an Arsenal player at the time) he has quite an impressive frame and you can see on the field he is a strong player.

If you think that's semantics then fair enough you're entitled to your view....but I think the differences between Reus and the players you have cited are significant enough.

[Özim]

Unless you have an anti-Wenger agenda...

What he's said is true, it was a horrible run and we've got another one in March. That's the price of competing at the top level.

I said Wenger moaned about it, he did, you asked me to post the quote, I did end of story.

I don't think the problem was how hard the run was, more the fact we didn't have enough cover and were already looking tired at the end of November. If you think this is going to be a problem then do something about it before the season starts.

Incidentally our result against Everton isn't looking so good now that Sunderland went over to Goodison and beat them.

[GP]

http://i.imgur.com/KBR0aM8.gif

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

I said Wenger moaned about it, he did, you asked me to post the quote, I did end of story.

I don't think the problem was how hard the run was, more the fact we didn't have enough cover and were already looking tired at the end of November. If you think this is going to be a problem then do something about it before the season starts.

Incidentally our result against Everton isn't looking so good now that Sunderland went over to Goodison and beat them.

Zimm, if we end up winning the league, would you give credit to Wenger?

[Özim]

Zimm, if we end up winning the league, would you give credit to Wenger?

If we do I he'll deserve credit, we won't be though, I've seen our run in March/April where I expect us to collapse like a house of cards on a windy day, we've shown we can't beat the best sides and can't handle hard runs of games. If we had a decent striker it might be different, can't see any available though and can't see us signing one. We'll most likely end up 3rd or 4th.

[Letters]

I said Wenger moaned about it, he did, you asked me to post the quote, I did end of story..

You posted a quote of him saying something obvious that most people would agree with.

I guess people with an anti-Wenger and anti-Arsenal agenda would spin it into something negative.

I don't think we'll win the league which will give you a good opportunity to moan - despite no-one seriously thinking we'd be serious contenders this year. If by some miracle we do win it you'll no doubt cite other teams' weakness and belittle the achievement. Anything other than giving us any credit. It's a WUM-WUM situation for you whatever happens.

[LDG]

A WUM-WUM situation :haha:

[Özim]

You posted a quote of him saying something obvious that most people would agree with.

I guess people with an anti-Wenger and anti-Arsenal agenda would spin it into something negative.

I don't think we'll win the league which will give you a good opportunity to moan - despite no-one seriously thinking we'd be serious contenders this year. If by some miracle we do win it you'll no doubt cite other teams' weakness and belittle the achievement. Anything other than giving us any credit. It's a WUM-WUM situation for you whatever happens.

He said it not me, it's a typical excuse he likes to make for his teams failing to win games.

Why didn't people think we were serious contenders? Well because of Wenger basically (due to lack of signings etc), we should be given the size of this club. I can't see us winning it, Man City clearly are a better team (they beat us convincingly) and Chelsea haven't played well at all but are still only a couple points behind which doesn't bode well for us considering we've played well overall.

There's only 8 points covering the teams up to and including Spurs so things can change a lot and given our run in March/April and the way we've come through the recent run it's quite feasible we'll drop a fair few points then. There's an improvement this season but IMO we still have a soft centre as highlighted by our recent results, we've waited a long time for him to build a team good enough to win stuff and thus the cop out excuse of we didn't expect this or that doesn't wash with me, we might not have expected it but we should because after years of underperforming it's high time we delivered something.

The last time we won something was in 2005 and yet if he doesn't win something this season it's OK because we've seen a slight improvement, before we judge that improvement let's see where we are at the end of the season shall we, things can change a lot. At this rate we could be saying the same thing in 10 years time, blaming all sorts of other factors for failing to succeed and pointing to small improvements as good reason to stick with what we've got.

We need more quality signings and to start beating the top teams now IMO, the time for building a team over a period of time has passed.

[milla]

If you haven't got it by now, I'm not sure you ever will, or even why you are responding at all, lol.

For debates sake, I'll state it again. Reus is not (imho) well suited to playing in the CF position in a 433 or as Dr Singh mentioned a 451. That is a statement of theory. I don't suspect it will ever prove wrong, because I don't think that if a miracle happens and we actually sign the bloke, that Wenger will entertain playing him at CF, or that he will play there long enough to show that he isn't quite right for the role.

I don't think he has anything like the physique or strength of RvP or Bale. Bale appears a light touch because of his diving antics as did the Conartist when he was at Man U prior to Real. That was before he went to Madrid became the second best player in the world and then people were like 'oooooh he's actually quite strong that boy'. Bale and Cronaldo are eerily similar in build in terms of physique, height and frame.

A good friend of mine has worked with Cronaldo (for his sins) on a few commercials and had to tackle him and has told me a few times how tough he is. Not that his physical prowess really needs verifying. RvP I have met on a commercial too and although I didn't have to tackle him (thankfully as he was an Arsenal player at the time) he has quite an impressive frame and you can see on the field he is a strong player.

If you think that's semantics then fair enough you're entitled to your view....but I think the differences between Reus and the players you have cited are significant enough.

FFS :faint:

[Heisenberg]

Does Reus ever play for Dortmund or Germany as CF?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I doubt it. Always thought he played instead of Poldi for Germany and I doubt he'd play there for Dortmund ahead of Lewandowski but maybe next season if they can't get a replacement.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Incidentally our result against Everton isn't looking so good now that Sunderland went over to Goodison and beat them.

what kind of logic is that?

[GP]

Logic? :lol:

[Özim]

what kind of logic is that?

The logic I used when I said it wasn't a good home result in the 1st place, Sunderland beating them away from home further proves that.

[Özim]

Logic? :lol:

:console:

[Ollie the Optimist]

The logic I used when I said it wasn't a good home result in the 1st place, Sunderland beating them away from home further proves that.

so you say city are the best team in the league. what does your logic say about them losing to cardiff, chelsea, sunderland, aston villa then?

you talk a load of shit, sunderland beating everton does not devalued a hard earned point against them at all. you keep telling us that city are the best team in england yet they have 3 away wins all season, lost or drawn with teams that we have beaten easily bar villa/chelsea. your logic is stupid and flawed completely

[Özim]

so you say city are the best team in the league. what does your logic say about them losing to cardiff, chelsea, sunderland, aston villa then?

you talk a load of shit, sunderland beating everton does not devalued a hard earned point against them at all. you keep telling us that city are the best team in england yet they have 3 away wins all season, lost or drawn with teams that we have beaten easily bar villa/chelsea. your logic is stupid and flawed completely

Yes they are clearly, Chelsea would be close if they had a top striker though.

Teams lose away, it's not uncommon, a team with a new manager especially so as the new manager takes time to get to know the players and get tactics implemented.

Not beating Everton was a poor result, they came to our joint played us off the park for 60 minutes and you somehow think it was a good result against them, it wasn't, especially given the fact we had City and Chelsea in our next two games and ended up with 2 points out of 9.

Everton are a club with very limited resources and Martinez has only been in charge half a season, we should have won that game, had we performed we would have.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Yes they are clearly, Chelsea would be close if they had a top striker though.

Teams lose away, it's not uncommon, a team with a new manager especially so as the new manager takes time to get to know the players and get tactics implemented.

Not beating Everton was a poor result, they came to our joint played us off the park for 60 minutes and you somehow think it was a good result against them, it wasn't, especially given the fact we had City and Chelsea in our next two games and ended up with 2 points out of 9.

so we draw a game against a very good side (still maintain they are the best side we have faced all season, i didn't watch the city game so can't comment) and its the worst result in the world because sunderland beat them, yet city lose several games against crap teams but thats ok because teams lose away, its not uncommon. jesus

why are city and chelsea so far above us in your mind? chelsea would be close if they have a top striker? they don't, who's fault is that? we are above them in the league and they failed to even come close to beating us on monday, they played for a draw, just ike they have done in every big game so far this season. city spent millions yet only now have gone above us in the league but we have a game in hand. you keep saying they are the best team in the land yet they have an awful away record, for the best team in the land to get their second away win OF THE SEASON in december is pretty fukcing poor.

[Heisenberg]

Drawing with Everton was a bad result because we were ahead and it was at home against a team we're better than. What Everton manage to cock up a few weeks later is irrelevant. Chelsea won't look at their point against us and say "oh, that looks even worse now, this lot lost at home to Villa!" Their assessment of the point, positive or negative, will be based on that it was us they played, not one off results that are clear aberrations.

[Özim]

so we draw a game against a very good side (still maintain they are the best side we have faced all season, i didn't watch the city game so can't comment) and its the worst result in the world because sunderland beat them, yet city lose several games against crap teams but thats ok because teams lose away, its not uncommon. jesus

why are city and chelsea so far above us in your mind? chelsea would be close if they have a top striker? they don't, who's fault is that? we are above them in the league and they failed to even come close to beating us on monday, they played for a draw, just ike they have done in every big game so far this season. city spent millions yet only now have gone above us in the league but we have a game in hand. you keep saying they are the best team in the land yet they have an awful away record, for the best team in the land to get their second away win OF THE SEASON in december is pretty fukcing poor.


We were at home, top of the league and on form, if we can't beat an Everton side who have been starved of investment and have had to sell all their best players for as long as I can remember we're in trouble. The fact is home games against teams like Everton are games we should win, as I said when a new manager comes in there is a bedding in period, it's not that hard to understand surely? Away games are always harder anyway.

Why? Because they have a better squad and players who seem to be able to handle big occasions, we've shown that come the crunch matches we come up short, that's been the case for years now, we just can't beat the best sides in any meaningful game (or one that achieves something). Chelsea didn't sign a top striker but Mourinho has just taken charge, you can bet your bottom dollar, he'll address these issues, unlike Wenger he doesn't sit on his arse and expect things to fix themselves due to more experience etc etc, that's why I've said this is our best chance to win the title, next season it will be harder for sure.

Yes Chelsea played for a draw, but Mourinho wanted to get some clean sheets as they've been conceding too many, job done and once again Wenger failed to beat him, this despite the fact Chelsea really aren't playing well and will only get better.

As I said new managers for both clubs and it takes time for them to implement, their methods and mould the squads in their image, you keep harping on about City and yet they humbled us 6-3 and are right on our coat tails despite this horrendous away record you keep pointing to, what does that say about us if Chelsea and City have been so poor and we've been at our best and yet they are still a point or two behind us?

I was hoping to see something different this December when we faced the top clubs, all I saw in the end is the same old weaknesses, we looked lightweight and didn't seem to have the quality to beat these sides, it's one thing beating small clubs you can open up at leisure but quite something else beating teams who have weapons that can hurt you.

[Özim]

Drawing with Everton was a bad result because we were ahead and it was at home against a team we're better than. What Everton manage to cock up a few weeks later is irrelevant. Chelsea won't look at their point against us and say "oh, that looks even worse now, this lot lost at home to Villa!" Their assessment of the point, positive or negative, will be based on that it was us they played, not one off results that are clear aberrations.

That's a fair point, I felt the need to add this in due to the fact people kept harping on about how a draw with Everton at home was a good result, it wasn't and at no stage did I or would I think it is.

[Ollie the Optimist]

you are making excuses for chelsea and city yet hammer arsenal for the same pissing things. you say mourinho wanted to get a clean sheet because they had conceded to many and thats fine, yet AW did the same thing and you hammer him for it. contradict yourself much?

sunderland were bottom of the league when city played them, you are telling me that the so called best team in england get a let off for not winning that as away games are always harder and they had a new manager? bollocks, you'd call for wenger to be sacked if he lost there.

mourinho didn't sign a top striker, but he let one go. he let a striker who since the beginning of last season has scored more goals then all of chelseas strikers put together. thats him addressing the issue clearing.


fuck me, you are so deluded in your hatred for Aw that the things you accuse him of, you excuse city and chelsea for doing. its beyond pathetic. everton have lost 2 games all season i believe. at least at the time of playing them, they had only lost one game. they are a very good side who had beaten top teams, yet you are stuck in a world where because its everton, you expect them to be shit because of this new manager and lack of signings completely ignoring the fact that the signings they had made were superb for them and the new manager has actually made them improve a hell of a lot. you are just like half the pundits out there, stuck with views formed 3 years ago, refuse to change them and just assume any result that isn't a win is because of the opinion you have from 3 years ago. you clearly haven't been watching football this season.

[Özim]

you are making excuses for chelsea and city yet hammer arsenal for the same pissing things. you say mourinho wanted to get a clean sheet because they had conceded to many and thats fine, yet AW did the same thing and you hammer him for it. contradict yourself much?

sunderland were bottom of the league when city played them, you are telling me that the so called best team in england get a let off for not winning that as away games are always harder and they had a new manager? bollocks, you'd call for wenger to be sacked if he lost there.

mourinho didn't sign a top striker, but he let one go. he let a striker who since the beginning of last season has scored more goals then all of chelseas strikers put together. thats him addressing the issue clearing.


fuck me, you are so deluded in your hatred for Aw that the things you accuse him of, you excuse city and chelsea for doing. its beyond pathetic. everton have lost 2 games all season i believe. at least at the time of playing them, they had only lost one game. they are a very good side who had beaten top teams, yet you are stuck in a world where because its everton, you expect them to be shit because of this new manager and lack of signings completely ignoring the fact that the signings they had made were superb for them and the new manager has actually made them improve a hell of a lot. you are just like half the pundits out there, stuck with views formed 3 years ago, refuse to change them and just assume any result that isn't a win is because of the opinion you have from 3 years ago. you clearly haven't been watching football this season.

When did he do that? Our defensive record had been decent until City smacked 6 past us, we basically need to build up a lead to have a chance because we'll run out of steam, in March/April I expect us to drop points left right and centre given our recent history, we clearly haven't got the stomach for the fight when it comes to big games and thus we need to build up a healthy lead before those games come round to have any chance.

Like I said new manager and all that, you can't expect a new manager to get it right right away, there's a settling period that's normal, Wenger has been in charge since the dark ages, there's no more leeway for him, it's almost 9 years since he won anything, that's way too long.

He clearly thought Lukaku could use another season on loan, manager's make decisions and mistakes as well, but like I said he's just come back, he doesn't know most of the players or the club, he will address the issues though, he always does that why he achieves so much success at every club.

Sorry but the fact is we should have beaten them, no amount of lame excuses will change that, we played poorly got played off the park for 60 minutes at home (embarrassingly so) and then people came out and said "they're a good side", "they've beaten so and so", "they've only lost one game" etc etc as an excuse for our inability to beat them...sorry but no we were top on good form we should have won end of.

I can remember people saying we could beat City because they play an open game (might well have been you), well guess what when push came to shove we played them and they gave us a footballing lesson, despite that you still think we're as good as them for some reason.

[IBK]

That's a fair point, I felt the need to add this in due to the fact people kept harping on about how a draw with Everton at home was a good result, it wasn't and at no stage did I or would I think it is.

It clearly isn't if you have ambitions to win the league as opposed to getting top 4.

[Ollie the Optimist]

When did he do that? Our defensive record had been decent until City smacked 6 past us, we basically need to build up a lead to have a chance because we'll run out of steam, in March/April I expect us to drop points left right and centre given our recent history, we clearly haven't got the stomach for the fight when it comes to big games and thus we need to build up a healthy lead before those games come round to have any chance.

Like I said new manager and all that, you can't expect a new manager to get it right right away, there's a settling period that's normal, Wenger has been in charge since the dark ages, there's no more leeway for him, it's almost 9 years since he won anything, that's way too long.

He clearly thought Lukaku could use another season on loan, manager's make decisions and mistakes as well, but like I said he's just come back, he doesn't know most of the players or the club, he will address the issues though, he always does that why he achieves so much success at every club.

Sorry but the fact is we should have beaten them, no amount of lame excuses will change that, we played poorly got played off the park for 60 minutes at home (embarrassingly so) and then people came out and said "they're a good side", "they've beaten so and so", "they've only lost one game" etc etc as an excuse for our inability to beat them...sorry but no we were top on good form we should have won end of.

I can remember people saying we could beat City because they play an open game (might well have been you), well guess what when push came to shove we played them and they gave us a footballing lesson, despite that you still think we're as good as them for some reason.

what a load of crap.

AW said after the game that the reason he iddnt make any subtitstions was because he wanted to keep the defence settled after a bad few games. fair enough really, i don't blame him for that. yet you say thats fine for mourinho to do yet not wenger.

you are going to every length to make excuses for city and chelsea yet hammer wenger for the same things. a bit pathetic that really. it seems that your whole argument about the everton game suggests that unless its city or chelsea we should be winning every game which is downright stupid. you clearly haven't watched any football this season otherwise you would know that everton are a dam good side. they have beaten most of the top sides and had when they played us only lost to city. thats a form team and it was a hard fought point. we dint play well granted but we won't win every game.

i thought city would be there for taking as they have been pretty poor this season IMO, played some great stuff at home but shocking away. the reason i think we are as good as them is because the league is decided over a season, not which top four club wins the most top four games. city were behind was until today because they weren't as good as us. its not that hard to understand. yes they beat us comfortably (with some very dodgy decisions too) yet were still behind us.

mourinho didn't have success at madrid, everyone knows that, he failed big time there and its not really a new club. he knows all those players, yet they have been crap. if we had lost to stoke, sunderland, struggled to beat west brom at home etc etc you would be calling for wenger to be sacked yet you make excuses for chelsea. its quite sad really.


you have moaned and moaned about us thinking top four is a trophy and only going for that yet the one year we are well and truly in the title race, you are moaning and having a hissy fit.

[Özim]

what a load of crap.

AW said after the game that the reason he iddnt make any subtitstions was because he wanted to keep the defence settled after a bad few games. fair enough really, i don't blame him for that. yet you say thats fine for mourinho to do yet not wenger.

you are going to every length to make excuses for city and chelsea yet hammer wenger for the same things. a bit pathetic that really. it seems that your whole argument about the everton game suggests that unless its city or chelsea we should be winning every game which is downright stupid. you clearly haven't watched any football this season otherwise you would know that everton are a dam good side. they have beaten most of the top sides and had when they played us only lost to city. thats a form team and it was a hard fought point. we dint play well granted but we won't win every game.

i thought city would be there for taking as they have been pretty poor this season IMO, played some great stuff at home but shocking away. the reason i think we are as good as them is because the league is decided over a season, not which top four club wins the most top four games. city were behind was until today because they weren't as good as us. its not that hard to understand. yes they beat us comfortably (with some very dodgy decisions too) yet were still behind us.

mourinho didn't have success at madrid, everyone knows that, he failed big time there and its not really a new club. he knows all those players, yet they have been crap. if we had lost to stoke, sunderland, struggled to beat west brom at home etc etc you would be calling for wenger to be sacked yet you make excuses for chelsea. its quite sad really.


you have moaned and moaned about us thinking top four is a trophy and only going for that yet the one year we are well and truly in the title race, you are moaning and having a hissy fit.

:lol:

What an idiot, we were at home the onus was on us to win the game not the other way around!

Like I said Wenger has had years at the club, the other two have only been there since this summer, Mourinho left Chelsea quite a few years ago and a lot has changed since then, he only knows some of the players and hasn't had enough time to put his team together. There's no excuses here, just fact, neither City nor Chelsea have played that well and yet they're very close to us, I think they'll get better over the course of the season and that's not good news for us.

Over a season City will beat us, they have a better squad and on the day a better team as well, that's been proved, I don't see how you can think otherwise looking at their squad and at the defeat they inflicted on us.

Mourinho won the league with record points, he didn't have it all his own way but knocking Barca off their perch was no mean feat.

I'm not convinced we're in the title race, we're doing well at the moment but as we tire more and then face the tough teams I think we'll come unstuck, not enough heavyweight players with that winning mentality and a squad that isn't strong enough.

If we made some quality signings in Jan I could change my mind however knowing Wenger I'm pretty sure we won't.

[Ollie the Optimist]

It clearly isn't if you have ambitions to win the league as opposed to getting top 4.

so basically from that statement we can conclude that the team who will win the league will be sunderland or manchester city because clearly if you can't beat with everton you won't win the league.


have you lot actually watched any football this season? everton are not a bad side, when we played them they were one of the form sides in the league who were very hard to beat. we are not going to win every game this season yet some are acting as if everton are the worse side to be in this league and anything less then a 10 nil thrashing is a sackable offence

[Ollie the Optimist]

:lol:

What an idiot, we were at home the onus was on us to win the game not the other way around!

Like I said Wenger has had years at the club, the other two have only been there since this summer, Mourinho left Chelsea quite a few years ago and a lot has changed since then, he only knows some of the players and hasn't had enough time to put his team together. There's no excuses here, just fact, neither City nor Chelsea have played that well and yet they're very close to us, I think they'll get better over the course of the season and that's not good news for us.

Over a season City will beat us, they have a better squad and on the day a better team as well, that's been proved, I don't see how you can think otherwise looking at their squad and at the defeat they inflicted on us.

Mourinho won the league with record points, he didn't have it all his own way but knocking Barca off their perch was no mean feat.

I'm not convinced we're in the title race, we're doing well at the moment but as we tire more and then face the tough teams I think we'll come unstuck, not enough heavyweight players with that winning mentality and a squad that isn't strong enough.

If we made some quality signings in Jan I could change my mind however knowing Wenger I'm pretty sure we won't.

yeah but you told us all summer wenger would never ever spend 40 million pounds on a player. you got that wrong.

moruinho didn't knock barca off their perch as they then won the league the next season with a record points total and were about 18 points ahead of madrid by decemeber. sum achievement that from mourinho.

city i think have lost more games then us this season in the league, how does beating us prove they are the better team? in the year 2013, we have won the most points, no one can top our total, ok yes thats over two seasons but with the squad in the one calendar we have been the best and most consistent team. we keep up 2013 form into the rest of the season, we will win the league.

[Özim]

yeah but you told us all summer wenger would never ever spend 40 million pounds on a player. you got that wrong.

moruinho didn't knock barca off their perch as they then won the league the next season with a record points total and were about 18 points ahead of madrid by decemeber. sum achievement that from mourinho.

city i think have lost more games then us this season in the league, how does beating us prove they are the better team? in the year 2013, we have won the most points, no one can top our total, ok yes thats over two seasons but with the squad in the one calendar we have been the best and most consistent team. we keep up 2013 form into the rest of the season, we will win the league.

Yes I was but in the end he was pretty much forced to spend due to the fans revolting.

Like I said he didn't have it all his own way, but to call him a failure certainly is a long way from the truth.

Like I said you have to factor in the change of management and the learning curve and time it takes for a new manager to get to know his players and setup tactics etc., what we saw when they beat us is that they can outplay us as they have a better team, we've got nothing that can match the likes of Aguero, Toure, Kompany, Silva at the moment other than Ozil who isn't settled yet.

That stat is meaningless, it's meaningless because a season isn't played over a calendar year, we had a good run at the end of last season but we were out of everything, right now we've had a decent half season but we've come up short when playing the top sides.

Runs of results are all very good but at the end of the day what matters is ending up top, nothing how many good runs you have put together, if we stay top the pressure will be on and we've got a history of falling apart when the pressure is on.

[Letters]

A WUM-WUM situation :haha:
:lol:

Was quite pleased with that :tiphat:

[Power n Glory]

What are you two arguing over? (Zim/Letters)

Both of you are in agreement regarding our title chances so what's the beef?

[IBK]

so basically from that statement we can conclude that the team who will win the league will be sunderland or manchester city because clearly if you can't beat with everton you won't win the league.


have you lot actually watched any football this season? everton are not a bad side, when we played them they were one of the form sides in the league who were very hard to beat. we are not going to win every game this season yet some are acting as if everton are the worse side to be in this league and anything less then a 10 nil thrashing is a sackable offence

No Ollie. Its not about whether Everton are a good side or not, but like it or not you have to beat the teams competing with you if you want to win the title. If Everton was a one off and we'd beaten the other top teams I could sympathise with you. But with one single exception, we have failed so far this season every time we've played our 'competitors'.

[LDG]

No Ollie. Its not about whether Everton are a good side or not, but like it or not you have to beat the teams competing with you if you want to win the title. If Everton was a one off and we'd beaten the other top teams I could sympathise with you. But with one single exception, we have failed so far this season every time we've played our 'competitors'.

Or if you look at it another way, we've only been beaten by one of the top 5.

[Letters]

What are you two arguing over? (Zim/Letters)

Both of you are in agreement regarding our title chances so what's the beef?
My beef with Zimm is his overly negative attitude, he goes out of his way to criticize the club and manager at any opportunity. I find it strange behavior from a so-called Arsenal fan.

He didn't expect us to win the league this season - pretty much no-one did - but will use our failure to do so to have a dig rather than being pleased about the progress we're making.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

FFS :faint:

Do you feel better now after expressing yourself so coherently and without your cup of tea smiley.

[Letters]

Why didn't people think we were serious contenders? Well because of Wenger basically (due to lack of signings etc), we should be given the size of this club.
Are you old enough to remember Arsenal before Wenger? We were NEVER consistently title contenders. Not since the 30s and our successes then. We'd not won the title with any regularity after that (48, 53, 71, 89, 91 if you're interested, and after '91 we became boring boring Arsenal and were very mid-table most seasons). If you think we should be contenders now then that is because of Wenger and the level he raised us to. We wouldn't be a club of this size were it not for Wenger, we were a big club before he came along of course but not as big as we are now. We wouldn't be in the new stadium without the initial success and style of football he brought and in the long term moving stadium was the only way we could hope to compete.

I agree with you that City and Chelsea are more likely champions. They bloody well should be with the money they've spent.


we've waited a long time for him to build a team good enough to win stuff and thus the cop out excuse of we didn't expect this or that doesn't wash with me

Of course not. Being rational and realistic don't fit with your anti-Arsenal and anti-Wenger agenda.

Pretty much all of us have been frustrated by the past few years in particular. Before that most of us accepted that in the era of billionaires and Arsenal moving stadium, which restricted our finances, we were going to struggle to compete. You throw around the word 'excuse' because it usually is taken to mean something made up to justify an omission but it's not an excuse to say that it is harder to compete in an era where billionaires can throw enough money around till they blunder their way to the top. Since we last won the title only 3 clubs have - all 3 clubs have more money than us and one has had a manager who many regard as the best of all time. In an era where money and success are highly correlated and however much money we earn through TV/merchandise/ticket sales it'll never be as much as the billionaire-fueled clubs it's not an 'excuse' or 'cop out' to say it's hard to for any other club to compete.

IMO Wenger has done well to keep us in the top four but poorly to not win any trophies for so long. He has clearly been restricted in the transfer market to an extent but could have done more and there's no defending the decision to sell RvP to a club who we're supposed to be competing with. End of the day we can rake over old ground all day. You can keep comparing us to the best sides under Wenger if you like but that's invalid now. The only valid basis for comparison is last season. It's not a 'cop out' or 'excuse' to say no-one was seriously expecting us to win the title this year. Were you? After the summer - and particularly after the Villa game - the question was not could we win the title but could we get anywhere near the top 4. It is high time we delivered but after years of underperforming it's completely ridiculous to expect us to improve enough in one season to the point where not winning the title against the billionaires is seen as a failure.

I agree the improvement can only be properly judged at the end of the season but so far I'm enjoying the football and am content with the results. I think elsewhere you said it's been a 'decent' half season. We got through a difficult CL group and the worst we can be after today is 2 points off the top of the table. I think most Arsenal fans would have taken that at the start of the season. If you think we should be doing better then I'd suggest your expectations are unrealistic.

Right now it looks like we're heading in the right direction for the first time in years. The Ozil signing showed a new intent, the improvement has been obvious. If we add the quality we need up front and continue to improve then I'll be happy.

[Power n Glory]

Pretty much no-one
My beef with Zimm is his overly negative attitude, he goes out of his way to criticize the club and manager at any opportunity. I find it strange behavior from a so-called Arsenal fan.

He didn't expect us to win the league this season - pretty much no-one did - but will use our failure to do so to have a dig rather than being pleased about the progress we're making.

The 'so called Arsenal fan' taunts are below the belt. You just have different perspectives. That should be obvious by now. Heck, we had a long discussion a couple of weeks ago about our title chances last week and took while to convince you that we're in with a shot.

If we repeat the same mistakes as the past, this won't be progress. Compare this to last season and it's an improvement but overall there is still a fair way to go before we're all convinced. The recent wobble suggests we're still not there and now the talk of our schedule is annoying because we should be prepared for it. We know we have another run of terrible games coming up and if we don't do something in the Jan transfer window, you really have to wonder what Wenger is playing at.

Certain decisions over the course of the season have cost us points, trophies, they've broke player moral and players then end up leaving. It sounds very doom and gloom to say that whilst we're top of the table :lol: but it's true. I'm hoping we don't repeat the same mistakes as the 2008 season. Wenger already knows the consequences of playing players into the red so there isn't an excuse.