Has Wenger conceded the league - again?

[IBK]

Maybe this thread is a bit previous, given that we have a few hours of the transfer window left - but the noises coming out so far suggest it won't be.

I've been trying to get my head around both the attitude of our manager.

I think its generally acknowledged that we are severely lacking in options up front - and a Giroud injury away from having a serious goalscoring problem. We ran a massive risk not investing in another proper striker last Summer - and are very fortunate that things have worked OK so far - but that's been down to a large extent on Ramsey - whose form had nosedived even before his injury (and who will doubtless now only play a bit part for the rest of the season - we are looking at 10 weeks or more on current prognisis for him to return and hit form again), and Theo, who is out for the season. We might be 'surprised' by Wenger signing a 'stop gap' before 11pm tonight, but even if he does our experience tells us that this is unlikely to be a signing that maintains a realistic title push.

The risk continues in defence - and even in the DM position. We have got where we are this season laregly because of the Merts/Kossy pairing. Vermaelen may be an adequate replacement, or he may not. But beyond him we are in trouble. If Sagna gets injured, Jenkinson has shown frailties. In DM we are relying on a free transfer who has faded since the season began, and is a potential red card waiting to happen (this is not to do Flamini down - but to point out that he is a risk in many respects), and Arteta, who is getting on - and in any event, not a real DM. Our understudy, Coquelin, has been farmed out on loan.

So why is Wenger operating what amounts to a skeleton squad in all these positions? What does it mean in terms of our title/silverware aspirations? To me, its bare minimum CL position preparation. No more.

Yet he spunks 42M on Ozil. With another manager, Ozil's signing would seem like a serious statement of intent. And if it wasn't for the other factors, I'd have said it represented Wenger's first genuine atempt in years to win something. But ATM (and seemingly for the forseeable future) Ozil is like buying the best rifle scope on the market then attaching it to a bog standard rifle. And that's not to mention that Ozil was added to a squad already bloated with attacking MF's. When you consider that Wilshere; Ramsey; Gnabry and the Ox are all AW's pet developmental players, while Rosicky; Cazorla should be considered top first team players it is very strange that he would spend so much on a player who will stunt the development of other players - an excuse that he has regularly used to explain non-investment in other areas.

Even this transfer window appears strange. Spending effort on trying to bring Draxler to the club when first there is no incentive whatsoever for Shalke to sell below his release clause, and secondly he would be very unlikely to make a big difference to our chances of winning something this season anyway. Massive echoes of Suarez in the Summer, really.

And its becoming increasingly difficult to suggest that Wenger's choices are imposed finacially.

This is not supposed to be yet another thread bemoaning lack of transfer activity, its an atempt to understand WTF is going on in Wenger's head. With the perennial injury situation that only an idiot would not anticipate - why is the manager so obviously tying one hand behind his back? Does he honestly think that a gamble that has lost for so many of the last 9 years will succeeed this time? Has he effectively conceded the league to the big spenders - and if so why the Ozil signing? Or does he think that Ozil was necessary simply to keep our CL slot?

If he's conceded the league this season, and with the likes of Ozil and Draxler is looking to future success - why future and not now? Because to me the only likelihood is that its going to get progressively more difficult to compete against financial doping going forwards.

Or is the reality that the world's 4th highest paid manager is more interested in playing the game in his ideal aesthetic way than trying to win serious silverware?

There are bound to be posters who (if they can be bothered at all) reply to this saying that I'm bitching and moaning when we're 1 point off the league - and that Wenger's achieved much simply to get us where we are. For me that's not the point. If we win something this season - great, and well done Wenger. But the reality is that this will be more through luck than planning. What I simply can't understand is why we don't seem to be taking the obvious steps that are in the club's power to make silverware more likely. And that has nothing to do with either improvement or current league position.

[Niall_Quinn]

Jesus! Stop bitching and moaning when we're 1 point off the league - and Wenger's achieved much simply to get us where we are.

[IBK]

Jesus! Stop bitching and moaning when we're 1 point off the league - and Wenger's achieved much simply to get us where we are.

That made me smile! :lol:

[Dein-machine]

100% YES

[Newguy]

I don't get Wenger at all, but let's see what happens first. He seems to lack ambition but then that has been the case for many years now. We need a striker but I would have been happy with draxler as it would have shown intent.

Whatever, we should get 4th but who knows...

[Niall_Quinn]

Apparently Summer 2014 is when it all starts happening for us. I guess we give them till then to show a bit of ambition in terms of winning a trophy.

[Power n Glory]

Apparently Summer 2014 is when it all starts happening for us. I guess we give them till then to show a bit of ambition in terms of winning a trophy.

What happens? We start selling off our players again? This reminds me of the 2008 season.

[Niall_Quinn]

What happens? We start selling off our players again? This reminds me of the 2008 season.

We will do something if we can, we will see if it is not impossible to do.

[fakeyank]

And to think, AW is going to be rewarded with a much higher contract because of this! :lol:

No way should the board even negotiate with AW, till the end of the season!

[Gooner23]

He's signed Ozil and got his new contract, now back to the penny pinching..

Would love to be proved wrong of course.

[Özim]

He wouldn't be a bottler if he didn't

A bottler's got to bottle it after all.

[selassie]

I am genuinely really shocked that he hasn't strengthened, I mean he loves a gamble but this is a stretch too far IMHO and will come back to haunt him.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I just don't think winning the leagie is anything more than a 'nice to have' at this Club. That said, we aren't in the position we are in because of 'luck'
Of the teams in the top 3, we have had to work a lot harder than those around us to be here.

[Gooner23]

I just don't think winning the leagie is anything more than a 'nice to have' at this Club. That said, we aren't in the position we are in because of 'luck'
Of the teams in the top 3, we have had to work a lot harder than those around us to be here.

Agreed, with all the ngativity going on at the moment we shouldn't forget what a great 1st half of the season we've had.

But what a missed opportunity this could be to really go for it. Shame it will probaby end up with a 'what if' at the end of the season, as opposed to a 'we gave it our best shot'.

[IBK]

I just don't think winning the leagie is anything more than a 'nice to have' at this Club. That said, we aren't in the position we are in because of 'luck'
Of the teams in the top 3, we have had to work a lot harder than those around us to be here.

I agree 100per cent with the first part of your post. The irony is that combined, our 2 owners are probably worth as much as any of the sugar daddies around. The difference is that while they have pumped money into their clubs, our shareholders have taken money out!

That said - there seems no serious appetite on the part of our manager even to maximise the resources we have. And for me that is down to ideology, as much if not more than how financially doped our competitors are. To me, there seems to be almost a resignation that we can't really win the league (and a holding back because of it) - because it can't make sense 'building' for a tomorrow that is never going to come.

As for the second part of your post - I'm not sure I follow you. We have had a relatively easy run of it this season so far. We have been fortunate to have players like Ramsey hit top form, and we have finally stepped up to the plate in defence - thanks to Bould. If anything, those with bigger squads will have an easier time of it from here on in, not the other way round.

...and the negativity is not because of the season we've had - its that we have improved, but won't build on that improvement. Deep down, every Gooner knows that despite what we have achieved in the first half of the season, we are unlikely to match it over the whole of the season - something that - be it underperforming in the first or the last part of the season has been an intrinsic part of wenger's arsenal teams for as long as i can remember.

[Letters]

God alone knows what goes on in Wenger's head sometimes but we have shown marked inprovement this season and I always find it interesting how highly Wenger is regarded by (sensible) non-Gooners and how much he's berated by some Gooners.

[Niall_Quinn]

God alone knows what goes on in Wenger's head sometimes but we have shown marked inprovement this season and I always find it interesting how highly Wenger is regarded by (sensible) non-Gooners and how much he's berated by some Gooners.

He deserves a bit of a kicking when he does shit like this. Sometimes he seems like a lead ball hanging out of our ambitions. Always getting us within 2% and then freezing as if his whole purpose in life is to wind us up.

[Letters]

There are times when I want to shake him tbf :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Shake him upside down to get at some of that money.

[IBK]

God alone knows what goes on in Wenger's head sometimes but we have shown marked inprovement this season and I always find it interesting how highly Wenger is regarded by (sensible) non-Gooners and how much he's berated by some Gooners.


He is highly regarded for a reason. But there's a reason why, despite the advantages that we should have with a manager of his talents who enjoys such power and longevity, he is no longer considered a winner. This season, after all the necessary years of caution, is the one where for so many reasons he should now be bold and go for it. He hasn't. Hence the thread title.

[Ollie the Optimist]

i would have loved a striker and personally think we need one, but so do chelsea yet they couldn't sign on. even monaco with all their money only got berbatov on the last day (don't think he would suit our team at all so never wanted him myself) i don't understand why we didn't try for klose on loan.

I get why he didn't spend 37 million on Draxler but then today reports came out saying Draxler wanted to go and the offer was there but Shalke stopped the deal so perhaps he was willing to spend it after all. 37 million while a huge statement, on a talented but unproven youngster for me is far too much and sums up what is wrong with modern football, but Draxler is also currently injured so wouldn't have been much use for a few games anyway.

Has he conceded the league? Not at all and i don't think you could argue it in the slightest. we know how proud and protective he is of his players and we also know how much he believes in them. He's backing this squad to do it and we should too. The last goal we conceded at home was against everton, the first match of december. Thats not bad. City might be scoring billions of goals at home, but we just aren't conceding them. Best attack v best defence. In 2013 we won the most points, so far in 2014, we have only drawn once and won the other games. We are keeping pace, largely spent most of the season setting the pace. there is huge improvement this year from the team, last year we didn't think we would even get top four yet its now february and we are fighting for the league. This time last year weren't we about 18 points worse off then we are now? We might not be scoring billions of goals like city are but we are winning, comfortably and professionally. Its clinical, not exciting to watch but i don't care. All this team can do is win, and they keep doing that. Arsene believes in these players and you can see it, they want this title, he does too. Not signing anyone might be in hindsight a bad decision, I'm not 100% there were any world class strikers around we could sign either. If we keep doing what we've done all season, we'll win the league. Lets not ask questions has AW thrown the title away when we are currently 2 points clear, save that for may. Every time a player gets injured, another one steps up to the plate. Gnarby for Theo, Ox today for Jack etc. Everyone keeps writing this squad offf and saying its city or chelsea's title yet we keep bouncing back.

[IBK]

i would have loved a striker and personally think we need one, but so do chelsea yet they couldn't sign on. even monaco with all their money only got berbatov on the last day (don't think he would suit our team at all so never wanted him myself) i don't understand why we didn't try for klose on loan.

I get why he didn't spend 37 million on Draxler but then today reports came out saying Draxler wanted to go and the offer was there but Shalke stopped the deal so perhaps he was willing to spend it after all. 37 million while a huge statement, on a talented but unproven youngster for me is far too much and sums up what is wrong with modern football, but Draxler is also currently injured so wouldn't have been much use for a few games anyway.

Has he conceded the league? Not at all and i don't think you could argue it in the slightest. we know how proud and protective he is of his players and we also know how much he believes in them. He's backing this squad to do it and we should too. The last goal we conceded at home was against everton, the first match of december. Thats not bad. City might be scoring billions of goals at home, but we just aren't conceding them. Best attack v best defence. In 2013 we won the most points, so far in 2014, we have only drawn once and won the other games. We are keeping pace, largely spent most of the season setting the pace. there is huge improvement this year from the team, last year we didn't think we would even get top four yet its now february and we are fighting for the league. This time last year weren't we about 18 points worse off then we are now? We might not be scoring billions of goals like city are but we are winning, comfortably and professionally. Its clinical, not exciting to watch but i don't care. All this team can do is win, and they keep doing that. Arsene believes in these players and you can see it, they want this title, he does too. Not signing anyone might be in hindsight a bad decision, I'm not 100% there were any world class strikers around we could sign either. If we keep doing what we've done all season, we'll win the league. Lets not ask questions has AW thrown the title away when we are currently 2 points clear, save that for may. Every time a player gets injured, another one steps up to the plate. Gnarby for Theo, Ox today for Jack etc. Everyone keeps writing this squad offf and saying its city or chelsea's title yet we keep bouncing back.

Eloquent and convincing post...but given our self evident fitness and depth issues - it is very very difficult to see this transfer window as anything other than a cock up. Anything's possible re the league, but anyone who would back us is living more in hope than expectation.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah, it's conceded in reality although we'll talk the talk until the maths go against us. According to the media (add salt to taste) summer 2014 is when we make our first real push because that's when the new money starts to become available. I think, like us, Wenger is probably surprised how well we have done this season. It has generated expectations where none existed. From the ridiculous to the 2% away from sublime.

Not signing a striker in the summer and then failing to sign one in January is the signal we won't be making a serious tilt this season. Although we could get lucky of course, Giroud may not get injured (but watching him play recently suggests he'll at least drop dead from fatigue) and the gypos may collapse, but they have stumbled upon a stable manager through trial and error and coupled with their mega million quid player in every position (three times over) policy they are unlikely to falter.

Don't know about the rest of you but my hopes lay on staying tough and in contention until January so we could call in the reinforcements. Not necessarily big name/ big fee players but somebody that could allow Giroud a couple of weeks off. Now we are asking him to go to May in three comps with no respite, unless we consider Bendtner an option (but surely not). If he manages it, amazing. 99% chance he won't.

[IBK]

Yeah, it's conceded in reality although we'll talk the talk until the maths go against us. According to the media (add salt to taste) summer 2014 is when we make our first real push because that's when the new money starts to become available. I think, like us, Wenger is probably surprised how well we have done this season. It has generated expectations where none existed. From the ridiculous to the 2% away from sublime.

Not signing a striker in the summer and then failing to sign one in January is the signal we won't be making a serious tilt this season. Although we could get lucky of course, Giroud may not get injured (but watching him play recently suggests he'll at least drop dead from fatigue) and the gypos may collapse, but they have stumbled upon a stable manager through trial and error and coupled with their mega million quid player in every position (three times over) policy they are unlikely to falter.

Don't know about the rest of you but my hopes lay on staying tough and in contention until January so we could call in the reinforcements. Not necessarily big name/ big fee players but somebody that could allow Giroud a couple of weeks off. Now we are asking him to go to May in three comps with no respite, unless we consider Bendtner an option (but surely not). If he manages it, amazing. 99% chance he won't.

A convincing point...until you consider Ozil. Did Wenger really buy him to make sure we finished top 4?

[KSE Comedy Club]

A convincing point...until you consider Ozil. Did Wenger really buy him to make sure we finished top 4?

Or to get the fans off his back for a while and stop them baying for blood after another shite transfer window?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I doubt it. It'd only take bad results for that enmity to return. If it was merely about appeasing us then I'd expect something like the five player deadline day rush in 2011.

[Niall_Quinn]

A convincing point...until you consider Ozil. Did Wenger really buy him to make sure we finished top 4?

No, guessing I'd say they pushed the boat out in advance for a player they really wanted and was unlikely to be on the market again at least under similar circumstances. Plus it appeased the fans as a bonus. Ozil is hopefully step 1 of the project. It doesn't make much sense if his signing is a one-off.

[Globalgunner]

The thing about this season is that it probably won't repeat itself. There is no size of increased earnings we can get from improved deals that will match the unlimited funds of City and Chelsea. Kronke won't let the Uzbek on board and won't put a penny of his own money in. Waiting on FFP to level the playing field is like waiting on the lottery to bail you out of insolvency. With the powers that be running football now, and elections on the horizon at FIFA and later UEFA. I wouldn't wait for any sea change. We could have won the league this year but again Wenger doesn't have the courage of his own convictions. Moving belatedly for his targets with e week to go.

It's apparently obvious that Ozil was an appeasement to the revolting masses. Problem is Wenger never learns. He only sees his own time line, forgetting that outstanding players only see in 3 year cycles, at most. If we don't win anything by 2016, I will bet my bottom dollar that Ozil will leave just as all the crown jewel princes, Henry, Fabregas, RVP, have left before him

Wenger is a satisfied man, He believes he has done enough to secure his legacy and if it ever questioned, he can fall back on the convenient excuse that all who beat him had way more resources than him. He is also paid like a winner so that rubs his ego too. He hates losing, but really he doesn't desire winning that much enough. All of the managers of his age group have won the CL and retired. Arsene too has retired but our club is his idea of a retirement home. I actually am no longer mad at him, the only sentiment t I have left is sympathy, for a man who stood steadfastly in his own way

[IBK]

The thing about this season is that it probably won't repeat itself. There is no size of increased earnings we can get from improved deals that will match the unlimited funds of City and Chelsea. Kronke won't let the Uzbek on board and won't put a penny of his own money in. Waiting on FFP to level the playing field is like waiting on the lottery to bail you out of insolvency. With the powers that be running football now, and elections on the horizon at FIFA and later UEFA. I wouldn't wait for any sea change. We could have won the league this year but again Wenger doesn't have the courage of his own convictions. Moving belatedly for his targets with e week to go.

It's apparently obvious that Ozil was an appeasement to the revolting masses. Problem is Wenger never learns. He only sees his own time line, forgetting that outstanding players only see in 3 year cycles, at most. If we don't win anything by 2016, I will bet my bottom dollar that Ozil will leave just as all the crown jewel princes, Henry, Fabregas, RVP, have left before him

Wenger is a satisfied man, He believes he has done enough to secure his legacy and if it ever questioned, he can fall back on the convenient excuse that all who beat him had way more resources than him. He is also paid like a winner so that rubs his ego too. He hates losing, but really he doesn't desire winning that much enough. All of the managers of his age group have won the CL and retired. Arsene too has retired but our club is his idea of a retirement home. I actually am no longer mad at him, the only sentiment t I have left is sympathy, for a man who stood steadfastly in his own way

I definitely think his mindset has changed. IMO Wenger honestly believes that 3rd or 4th in the league makes him a winner.

[Ernesto]

I hope that behind the scenes, this team has instilled belief that it can win the league. As fans, we're allowed to be pessimists. However, if our last home performance was anything to go by, it seriously makes me wonder about the mindset of these players and what they are being instructed to do.

There has been a marked improvement from last season. We're winning the games we're meant to win and keeping an impressive unbeaten home record since the opening day of the season.

I often wonder whether we've shot ourselves in the foot with regard to signing new players in January. On the other hand, I think we can freshen things up with the players we currently have at our disposal. Why not play Podolski as a lone striker up front? A forward who, I believe, had à more predatory and instinctive presence cf Giroud. If it is to be believed that Giroud needs only resting, then the next couple of games, important as they are, are the perfect opportunity. Midfield has been a problem getting steady, but we bemoaned one too many midfielders at the beginning of the season. Maybe I'm looking at this too simply but in spite of injuries to Ramsey and Walcott, should we not be able to rotate an effective, title-winning midfield using Ozil, Arteta, Flamini, Rosicky, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Wilshere and Cazorla?

We have a big game against Liverpool tomorrow (a team that, while being six points behind us in the title race, now have shorter odds to win the trophy). While it isn't a league game, all performances count. This time last season, Wenger almost "threw" a game v Blackburn, knocking us out and having an inevitable detrimental effecit for the rest of the season. Win tomorrow, and it stands us in good stead for Bayern Munich and a couple of more straightforward league matches iin the next few weeks.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Podolski cannot play as a lone striker.

This has been tried before and it doesn't work.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I'm at pains to agree. Podolski up top is absolutely awful and I don't want to keep hearing he hasn't had a proper go there. He's played there several times since being with us and been awful almost every time.

[Power n Glory]

I'm at pains to agree. Podolski up top is absolutely awful and I don't want to keep hearing he hasn't had a proper go there. He's played there several times since being with us and been awful almost every time.

I have to agree and think he's been terrible there. Even more anonymous and doesn't work to touch the ball and his movement is poor. I wouldn't start him up front but I'd at least use him as a sub there just to see if he improves things and to give Giroud a rest.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I am dumbfounded at the fact he didn't get on in the last game. When he was signed Wenger gave us the spiel about being a German international with a gazillion caps and a lethal strike and we all lapped it up because we shared his view. He was made the top earner then even though he came from Cologne in Germany and now we won't even bring him on when we are supposedly desperate for a goal in a game we simply had to win.

He may as well be Sun Ji Park at this rate for all Wenger trusts the bloke.

[Özim]

Even if he is anonymous he's at least a possible goal threat, Giroud is anonymous and not a goal threat at all.

As far as I'm concerned he's never got a chance up front, a run of games wouldn't hurt, he scored goals for Cologne was he not up front for them? Giroud is awful and we don't have any real options so why not play him.

I can't stand watching Giroud play anymore, it's torture.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

If he is anonymous for the next few games that could well put us into 5th because by that point our tough league run would have arrived. Far more preferable to play Podolski wide left.

Giroud was a goal threat in the last game (in fact he could have scored a hat trick)....he just didn't take his chances. Admittedly it isn't enough to simply be a goal threat, you have to score the goals, but he does have a few in the league. Podolski up front is genuinely some of the most truly anonymous displays at CF I've seen from a player of his level of ability. Truly lost at sea....

Better to play him left, where the marking of the full back is a lot less focused and more lax and he can ghost in far more undetected.

[Özim]

Giroud misses chance after chance, he won't get goals and he's largely anonymous. Podoslki will get goals because he takes his chances even if he doesn't head it backwards and sideways every 10 minutes.

Podolski is a forward at the end of the day, I'm not convinced on his effectiveness on the left. The alternative it to play Bendtner and Podolski up front and switch to 4 in midfield (drop Wilshere), with Ozil, Cazorla, Rosicky and Flamini or Arteta.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I don't think he is often truly anonymous and whilst you say he won't get goals he still has 10 league goals this season. Nothing to scream about but it's not like he has never scored. Podolski won't even get the chances but he has scored a fair amount having been played from the left. In the end he is not first team in either position really but if he has to play, I'd rather it was from the left or as a sub up front.

[Özim]

10 isn't great, but in the last 2 months he has been truly awful largely missing chances. I don't see how you can say Podolski won't get chances when he never plays up front, he hasn't been given a run up front since we signed him and yet he's done ok goalscoring wise.

Giroud has to be dropped for me, he has been awful

[Penguin]

It's not just Giroud's finishing that has let him down, his play in general is awful. We were singing his praises for his link up play earlier in the season but that's gone down the toilet too. Only about a third of his flicks and touches finds the target and a lot of the time he chooses the wrong option anyway. We might as well be playing with a giant sack of spuds up top, although that would probably have a better chance of scoring than Giroud. :lol:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Tbf, there have been precious few options for him to choose from.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[IBK]

I hope that behind the scenes, this team has instilled belief that it can win the league. As fans, we're allowed to be pessimists. However, if our last home performance was anything to go by, it seriously makes me wonder about the mindset of these players and what they are being instructed to do.

There has been a marked improvement from last season. We're winning the games we're meant to win and keeping an impressive unbeaten home record since the opening day of the season.

I often wonder whether we've shot ourselves in the foot with regard to signing new players in January. On the other hand, I think we can freshen things up with the players we currently have at our disposal. Why not play Podolski as a lone striker up front? A forward who, I believe, had à more predatory and instinctive presence cf Giroud. If it is to be believed that Giroud needs only resting, then the next couple of games, important as they are, are the perfect opportunity. Midfield has been a problem getting steady, but we bemoaned one too many midfielders at the beginning of the season. Maybe I'm looking at this too simply but in spite of injuries to Ramsey and Walcott, should we not be able to rotate an effective, title-winning midfield using Ozil, Arteta, Flamini, Rosicky, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Wilshere and Cazorla?

We have a big game against Liverpool tomorrow (a team that, while being six points behind us in the title race, now have shorter odds to win the trophy). While it isn't a league game, all performances count. This time last season, Wenger almost "threw" a game v Blackburn, knocking us out and having an inevitable detrimental effecit for the rest of the season. Win tomorrow, and it stands us in good stead for Bayern Munich and a couple of more straightforward league matches iin the next few weeks.

That says it all about our team i'm afraid. Its a long time since we have seen real conviction about our team. It would be great if we stood up tomorrow - but that has to be more hope than expectation...

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

We're only 3 points behind you, tbf.

[fakeyank]

http://imageshack.com/a/img842/9313/qvwk.jpg

[Bergkamplegend]

He's signed Ozil and got his new contract, now back to the penny pinching..

Would love to be proved wrong of course.

Same for me.
He ruined our title hopes by not buying this winter...

Except the great Kallstrom of course.:yippee:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Kallstrom will create a maelstrom when he gets going.

[IBK]

The manager's great victory has been to establish as a truth the notion that what some call failure is actually a manifestation of success and that winning trophies is not the primary goal but rather a secondary aim, subservient to not over-spending and playing good football. There are plenty of dissenters to this view who see through the façade but not enough for them to ever oust Wenger from his imperious position.

From Football 365. Thoughts?

For me this is the paradox. Wenger can forever point to the fact that he is competing against overwhelming odds with the billionaires. The problem is that we naturally back him for this and look further than simply silverware.

[GP]

You just have to look at the magnificent stadium we play in and the world class training facilities to know that what Wenger has done has been a success. Just looking at the results without the context of the massive capital investment is incredibly short sighted.

Some say he can't compete at the top of the game any more, and there might be some truth to that, but no one else could have overseen the project that Wenger has and left is such incredibly healthy shape.

[IBK]

You just have to look at the magnificent stadium we play in and the world class training facilities to know that what Wenger has done has been a success. Just looking at the results without the context of the massive capital investment is incredibly short sighted.

Some say he can't compete at the top of the game any more, and there might be some truth to that, but no one else could have overseen the project that Wenger has and left is such incredibly healthy shape.

Undeniably. But is AW right to insist that such achievements validly counter straight statistical success? For me, this is the dichotomy with AW. Is football now at the stage that (because of financial doping) people should consider the context in which trophies are won?

[GP]

Of course. Where's the achievement in throwing unlimited funds at something? Even finishing 2nd this year will be an incredible achievement considering the opposition.

[IBK]

Of course. Where's the achievement in throwing unlimited funds at something? Even finishing 2nd this year will be an incredible achievement considering the opposition.

Well in that case are we at a different place than in the past where the league was the league and didn't need any more explaining than that? Or have teams always demanded that we consider financial circumstances as well as trophies?

[GP]

It it isn't new to this season, if that's what you mean.

There has always been a financial disparity, but never to the extent we have now. Man City have virtually 3 different 1st XI's that could compete at a high level.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

From Football 365. Thoughts?

For me this is the paradox. Wenger can forever point to the fact that he is competing against overwhelming odds with the billionaires. The problem is that we naturally back him for this and look further than simply silverware.

I don't think it can be denied how important the top teams deem being in the Champions League (and for the lower down teams exchange CL for PL and survival for a trophy). That post on 365 might want to believe all trophies are above what is the bare minimum target but look at Liverpool, Tottenham and Everton. They all see it as what will be a new and exciting beginning for their clubs but using Liverpool as an example, you can't say they thought the same about winning the League Cup two years ago.

Where I think Wenger veered too far towards is seeing it as the only success available. Trophies are what I ultimately want us to win but as long as I can sense progression then I can't complain a huge amount if that tangible success doesn't come.

I am glad we won the FA Cup in 2005 for instance but I can't say I take a huge amount of pride in the way we won it.

[selassie]

Undeniably. But is AW right to insist that such achievements validly counter straight statistical success? For me, this is the dichotomy with AW. Is football now at the stage that (because of financial doping) people should consider the context in which trophies are won?

No, though I understand and accept that it isn't just a black and white scenario, I.E. We shouldn't judge AW a success or a failure based on a results only scenario.

In terms of the actual health of the football club, from both a financial and sporting point of view we are in very good shape and I am thankful for AW & the board for that. I think the pain we have gone through regarding our player recruitment policy post stadium move is starting to wear off. I believe the club is now in a financial position to compete for top quality players. I do actually feel that AW has built a pretty decent squad, which is a mix of purchases and players groomed through our youth system. Our squad is arguably the 3rd best in PL behind City and Chelsea, though there is certainly room for improvement within the squad.

Given our current financial standing, what we are paying AW and the talent in our current squad, our expectations should be that the club should compete and I mean strongly compete for every single competition we enter.

We are by no means disadvantaged and whilst I accept that Man City and Chelsea to a lesser degree have superior squads and bigger budgets they are not invincible.

Of course finishing 2nd or 3rd behind those clubs would constitute a good season, but our progress in the League should be judged on a points/results basis. There could be many factors to finishing 2nd or 3rd and it really depends on how the season pans out to whether it's seen as a success or disappointment.

[IBK]

No, though I understand and accept that it isn't just a black and white scenario, I.E. We shouldn't judge AW a success or a failure based on a results only scenario.

In terms of the actual health of the football club, from both a financial and sporting point of view we are in very good shape and I am thankful for AW & the board for that. I think the pain we have gone through regarding our player recruitment policy post stadium move is starting to wear off. I believe the club is now in a financial position to compete for top quality players. I do actually feel that AW has built a pretty decent squad, which is a mix of purchases and players groomed through our youth system. Our squad is arguably the 3rd best in PL behind City and Chelsea, though there is certainly room for improvement within the squad.

Given our current financial standing, what we are paying AW and the talent in our current squad, our expectations should be that the club should compete and I mean strongly compete for every single competition we enter.

We are by no means disadvantaged and whilst I accept that Man City and Chelsea to a lesser degree have superior squads and bigger budgets they are not invincible.

Of course finishing 2nd or 3rd behind those clubs would constitute a good season, but our progress in the League should be judged on a points/results basis. There could be many factors to finishing 2nd or 3rd and it really depends on how the season pans out to whether it's seen as a success or disappointment.

Perhaps. And I agree that Wenger's done enough outside winning trophies to avoid being termed as a failure. But objectively can the last 8/9 years be judged a success?

[Letters]

I am glad we won the FA Cup in 2005 for instance but I can't say I take a huge amount of pride in the way we won it.
Was bloody funny though :lol:

:patrice:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

That it was. :bow:

Can't see me ever buying the DVD though. :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

Still not quite sure how we got away with that one, couldn't believe how shit we were.

[I am invisible]

Perhaps. And I agree that Wenger's done enough outside winning trophies to avoid being termed as a failure. But objectively can the last 8/9 years be judged a success?
To be honest, it's probably neither - we've hit our minimum targets, but never really deviated too far in either direction from 'acceptable'. From speaking with other Arsenal fans on other forums, I found most of the frustration seemed to stem from general boredom at the predictable, routine pattern that our seasons had started to follow: no glory to revel in, but nothing to get that angry about either; nothing much to really start believing in Wenger and his vision again, but nothing so bad as to warrant him losing his job either. And after a while you stopped even imagining what the next season might be like with a few of the right signings. It all just became very 'meh', and I think a lot of things got blown up out of all proportion because of it (both in terms of criticism and praise)...

[Marc Overmars]

To be honest, it's probably neither - we've hit our minimum targets, but never really deviated too far in either direction from 'acceptable'. From speaking with other Arsenal fans on other forums, I found most of the frustration seemed to stem from general boredom at the predictable, routine pattern that our seasons had started to follow: no glory to revel in, but nothing to get that angry about either; nothing much to really start believing in Wenger and his vision again, but nothing so bad as to warrant him losing his job either. And after a while you stopped even imagining what the next season might be like with a few of the right signings. It all just became very 'meh', and I think a lot of things got blown up out of all proportion because of it (both in terms of criticism and praise)...

Agree with that. I think regardless of what your expectations are, witnessing the same thing over and over again is bound to grate after a while. That goes for supporters of all clubs.

[GP]

Spurs :haha:

[Letters]

Perhaps. And I agree that Wenger's done enough outside winning trophies to avoid being termed as a failure. But objectively can the last 8/9 years be judged a success?
I think the answer to that is more complicated than a straight yes or no.
The aim in football is to be winning trophies and as a club at the very top of the English game we shouldn't have gone this long without winning any, it's especially galling to have come so close on a few occasions and failed. Wenger's legacy has undoubtably been tarnished by that.

On the other hand he has overseen the most complex stadium move certainly in English football, kept us in the top 4 while spending remarkably little on transfers and the result is now we've paid off a lot of that stadium debt and have new commercial deals in place we are very well placed to compete with just about anyone. We could not have done that at Highbury and we wouldn't be at the new stadium but for the success (and resultant fanbase) that Wenger's early years with us brought. It's a less satisfying definition of success for many fans than some trophies and the two weren't mutually exclusive, we could have picked a few trophies up along the way, but it's a pretty impressive achievement nonetheless. The stadium and resultant financial clout, so vital in the modern game, are a part of his legacy.

It's unfortunate that we're now trying to compete with two clubs who can spend what they like with no conseqence. Football has never been a level playing field but in the PL era the gap between the haves and have nots has grown exponentially due to the Sky money and growth of the CL. We are one of the haves so we don't have much of a high horse about this but our financial clout is at least the result of hard work, previous success and prudent management rather than bestowed by a benefactor wanting to have some fun. Chelsea showed you can buy success, City showed you can do it with any club if you pump enough money in for long enough. Those two clubs deserve zero credit and it pisses me off that the media fawn over their 'achievements' and almost sneers at our attempts to compete.

<_<

[IBK]

I think the answer to that is more complicated than a straight yes or no.
The aim in football is to be winning trophies and as a club at the very top of the English game we shouldn't have gone this long without winning any, it's especially galling to have come so close on a few occasions and failed. Wenger's legacy has undoubtably been tarnished by that.

On the other hand he has overseen the most complex stadium move certainly in English football, kept us in the top 4 while spending remarkably little on transfers and the result is now we've paid off a lot of that stadium debt and have new commercial deals in place we are very well placed to compete with just about anyone. We could not have done that at Highbury and we wouldn't be at the new stadium but for the success (and resultant fanbase) that Wenger's early years with us brought. It's a less satisfying definition of success for many fans than some trophies and the two weren't mutually exclusive, we could have picked a few trophies up along the way, but it's a pretty impressive achievement nonetheless. The stadium and resultant financial clout, so vital in the modern game, are a part of his legacy.

It's unfortunate that we're now trying to compete with two clubs who can spend what they like with no conseqence. Football has never been a level playing field but in the PL era the gap between the haves and have nots has grown exponentially due to the Sky money and growth of the CL. We are one of the haves so we don't have much of a high horse about this but our financial clout is at least the result of hard work, previous success and prudent management rather than bestowed by a benefactor wanting to have some fun. Chelsea showed you can buy success, City showed you can do it with any club if you pump enough money in for long enough. Those two clubs deserve zero credit and it pisses me off that the media fawn over their 'achievements' and almost sneers at our attempts to compete.

<_<

Agree with all that. Yet for all this the record books will still record that we've won nothing. I would genuinely love to know whether a top team in the past has been forgiven because of the obstacles it faced. We are moral victors for sure - but will history care?

[GP]

I think the answer to that is more complicated than a straight yes or no.
The aim in football is to be winning trophies and as a club at the very top of the English game we shouldn't have gone this long without winning any, it's especially galling to have come so close on a few occasions and failed. Wenger's legacy has undoubtably been tarnished by that.

On the other hand he has overseen the most complex stadium move certainly in English football, kept us in the top 4 while spending remarkably little on transfers and the result is now we've paid off a lot of that stadium debt and have new commercial deals in place we are very well placed to compete with just about anyone. We could not have done that at Highbury and we wouldn't be at the new stadium but for the success (and resultant fanbase) that Wenger's early years with us brought. It's a less satisfying definition of success for many fans than some trophies and the two weren't mutually exclusive, we could have picked a few trophies up along the way, but it's a pretty impressive achievement nonetheless. The stadium and resultant financial clout, so vital in the modern game, are a part of his legacy.

It's unfortunate that we're now trying to compete with two clubs who can spend what they like with no conseqence. Football has never been a level playing field but in the PL era the gap between the haves and have nots has grown exponentially due to the Sky money and growth of the CL. We are one of the haves so we don't have much of a high horse about this but our financial clout is at least the result of hard work, previous success and prudent management rather than bestowed by a benefactor wanting to have some fun. Chelsea showed you can buy success, City showed you can do it with any club if you pump enough money in for long enough. Those two clubs deserve zero credit and it pisses me off that the media fawn over their 'achievements' and almost sneers at our attempts to compete.

<_<

Spectacular post.

Almost as good as a Syn post, that.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

I think the answer to that is more complicated than a straight yes or no.
The aim in football is to be winning trophies and as a club at the very top of the English game we shouldn't have gone this long without winning any, it's especially galling to have come so close on a few occasions and failed. Wenger's legacy has undoubtably been tarnished by that.

On the other hand he has overseen the most complex stadium move certainly in English football, kept us in the top 4 while spending remarkably little on transfers and the result is now we've paid off a lot of that stadium debt and have new commercial deals in place we are very well placed to compete with just about anyone. We could not have done that at Highbury and we wouldn't be at the new stadium but for the success (and resultant fanbase) that Wenger's early years with us brought. It's a less satisfying definition of success for many fans than some trophies and the two weren't mutually exclusive, we could have picked a few trophies up along the way, but it's a pretty impressive achievement nonetheless. The stadium and resultant financial clout, so vital in the modern game, are a part of his legacy.

It's unfortunate that we're now trying to compete with two clubs who can spend what they like with no conseqence. Football has never been a level playing field but in the PL era the gap between the haves and have nots has grown exponentially due to the Sky money and growth of the CL. We are one of the haves so we don't have much of a high horse about this but our financial clout is at least the result of hard work, previous success and prudent management rather than bestowed by a benefactor wanting to have some fun. Chelsea showed you can buy success, City showed you can do it with any club if you pump enough money in for long enough. Those two clubs deserve zero credit and it pisses me off that the media fawn over their 'achievements' and almost sneers at our attempts to compete.

<_<

Top, top, top post.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I think the answer to that is more complicated than a straight yes or no.
The aim in football is to be winning trophies and as a club at the very top of the English game we shouldn't have gone this long without winning any, it's especially galling to have come so close on a few occasions and failed. Wenger's legacy has undoubtably been tarnished by that.

On the other hand he has overseen the most complex stadium move certainly in English football, kept us in the top 4 while spending remarkably little on transfers and the result is now we've paid off a lot of that stadium debt and have new commercial deals in place we are very well placed to compete with just about anyone. We could not have done that at Highbury and we wouldn't be at the new stadium but for the success (and resultant fanbase) that Wenger's early years with us brought. It's a less satisfying definition of success for many fans than some trophies and the two weren't mutually exclusive, we could have picked a few trophies up along the way, but it's a pretty impressive achievement nonetheless. The stadium and resultant financial clout, so vital in the modern game, are a part of his legacy.

It's unfortunate that we're now trying to compete with two clubs who can spend what they like with no conseqence. Football has never been a level playing field but in the PL era the gap between the haves and have nots has grown exponentially due to the Sky money and growth of the CL. We are one of the haves so we don't have much of a high horse about this but our financial clout is at least the result of hard work, previous success and prudent management rather than bestowed by a benefactor wanting to have some fun. Chelsea showed you can buy success, City showed you can do it with any club if you pump enough money in for long enough. Those two clubs deserve zero credit and it pisses me off that the media fawn over their 'achievements' and almost sneers at our attempts to compete.

<_<

A really inspired post.

[selassie]

Perhaps. And I agree that Wenger's done enough outside winning trophies to avoid being termed as a failure. But objectively can the last 8/9 years be judged a success?

Most definitely not a success. Whilst this might go against the general tone of my last post I have actually wanted Wenger out for quite some time. I personally feel if he would have put as much effort into the footballing side as the financial side we would be in a much better position. Though one could argue Wenger is planning long term and sowing the seeds to a long and sustained domination.

I personally feel we should have won something over the past 8/9 years, for example that Carling Cup Final defeat to Birmingham was totally unacceptable IMHO.

For me Wenger really has to deliver this season. I really do want to see a proper improvement, be it a higher placed league position or a trophy, the FA Cup being the only realistic target.

[IBK]

Most definitely not a success. Whilst this might go against the general tone of my last post I have actually wanted Wenger out for quite some time. I personally feel if he would have put as much effort into the footballing side as the financial side we would be in a much better position. Though one could argue Wenger is planning long term and sowing the seeds to a long and sustained domination.

I personally feel we should have won something over the past 8/9 years, for example that Carling Cup Final defeat to Birmingham was totally unacceptable IMHO.

For me Wenger really has to deliver this season. I really do want to see a proper improvement, be it a higher placed league position or a trophy, the FA Cup being the only realistic target.

For me, its an almost impossible situation with Wenger. He has worked miracles with our club and should be proud of what he has achieved. But he is running out of time to show that he still knows how to win trophies rather than finish top four.