Match Reaction vs Mongs

[fakeyank]

Shit

4th place trophy

[Ollie the Optimist]

cunts.

ref was a cunt

our players were a bunch of bottling cunts

charlie adam is a cunt

[fakeyank]

cunts.

ref was a cunt

our players were a bunch of bottling cunts

charlie adam is a cunt

:gp:

Agree, I'd reorder that list though... I'd put our players first followed by the rest but I dont think you meant it in any order!

[milla]

Wenger must not be given a new contract, period! We lost not because we don't have players but they were told not play the winning ways.

[adzzzbatch]

We're rapidly falling back to 4th, our favourite position. Party is over.

[milla]

:gp:

Agree, I'd reorder that list though... I'd put our players first followed by the rest but I dont think you meant it in any order!

No, you should put Wenger first, second and third. Our players have nothing to do with this sort of tactics. :coffee:

[Letters]

Wenger must not be given a new contract, period! We lost not because we don't have players but they were told not play the winning ways.

Making up stuff, ftw.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Abysmal performance. Never a pelanty but irrelevant really as we didn't get close to ever getting a win.

[LDG]

I'm off to cut myself.

[Marc Overmars]

Didn't see the game, thankfully. By all accounts it sounded like a shitfest.

Form is very worrying now. We're going to need some very big wins this month if we're going to have a shot of winning the league, otherwise we have a no chance and it's probably time we started to look over our shoulders as well.

Arsenal. :lol:

What a predictable bunch you are. :console:

[milla]

Making up stuff, ftw.

There is no point saying this and that players are slow, no runners, no decent cross. If the whole lot are not doing right, then the problem lies with the manager. Blind support FTW

[Ollie the Optimist]

we never looked like we would win today, ok stoke is a tough place to go despite their league position. only lost twice this season but to not even bother turning up is the worst. the ref was awful, how giroud had two people stamp on his shin and not get a free kick for them is outrageous and that penalty is a joke.

podolski, well its time for him to go, he gives it the big i love Arsenal on twitter etc, yet on the pitch does nothing, he is lazy, disinterested and not worth starting. Arsene got his tactics wrong completely today, Ozil and the Ox looked great when they came on, but it was too late. title challenge is finished, and if he even thinks about resting players for everton because of the bayern game, there will be riots

[fakeyank]

Didn't see the game, thankfully. By all accounts it sounded like a shitfest.

Form is very worrying now. We're going to need some very big wins this month if we're going to have a shot of winning the league, otherwise we have a no chance and it's probably time we started to look over our shoulders as well.

Arsenal. :lol:

What a predictable bunch you are. :console:

Big wins? What are you, new to supporting Arsenal? You know that we do fuck all when the big games turn up! :lol:

[Özim]

Expected us to win this, turned up for the 2nd half at 0-0 and saw us huff and puff and create nothing, reminds me of last season to be honest. There's no real cutting edge to our football at the moment, Oxo was good when he came on and created a chance for us to get a point, Sanogo skied it however.

Don't think we've played well for quite a while now, other than the odd game here and there, can't remember the last time we showed good form.

[Xhaka Can’t]

For the past year, a key strength of our has been an ability, regardless of how we were playing, to beat all those teams we were expected to beat. It looks like we have lost that now with the poor performances leading to dropped points against Southampton and now Stoke.

I understand the ref may have got it wrong with the pel, but so what? A draw was no good either, and you aren't going to win if you score zero goals.

It seems a forlorn hope - but all our eggs are now in the FA Cup basket.

[fakeyank]

For the past year, a key strength of our has been an ability, regardless of how we were playing, to beat all those teams we were expected to beat. It looks like we have lost that now with the poor performances leading to dropped points against Southampton and now Stoke.

I understand the ref may have got it wrong with the pel, but so what? A draw was no good either, and you aren't going to win if you score zero goals.

It seems a forlorn hope - but all our eggs are now in the FA Cup basket.

This.

Pel or no pel, we created nothing until Sanogo's NFL field goal.

[adzzzbatch]

For the past year, a key strength of our has been an ability, regardless of how we were playing, to beat all those teams we were expected to beat. It looks like we have lost that now with the poor performances leading to dropped points against Southampton and now Stoke.

I understand the ref may have got it wrong with the pel, but so what? A draw was no good either, and you aren't going to win if you score zero goals.

It seems a forlorn hope - but all our eggs are now in the FA Cup basket.

The sad thing is you're right and we cannot go into the game versus Everton like we did today because I'm pretty sure they'll be up for it.

[Master Splinter]

Just awful from the first to the last minute. To give a performance like that at Stoke of places as well.

It wasn't the right team to really get around Stoke, but they created nothing at all. Once it was obvious something different was needed, Oxlade should have been the first to be brought on. He was our best player by far while he was on, but the changes were too late to have any effect.

That Stoke generally outplayed has to be the biggest embarrassment of the season. They had chances before the pelanty too. I've not seen the replay, but if hands are in the air, it's always likely to go against you, especially if you're an Arsenal player.

Stoke got away with nasty kicks and rakes and Adam should have been off for his stamp. But even then, we were so poor that they probably would have repelled our non-attacks with ten men with ease.

The defence were fine again, but they can't make up for an attack that only functions in fits and starts.

Horrible performance and poor management has now put our season on the brink in unnecessary fashion.

If we recover from this, it will be quite the achievement.

[Munchies]

Giroud/Sanogo/Bentner all have to leave

Nor do I trust Wenger to oversee a transfer window again. We had to push on in Jan, and he done fuck all.

Fucking cunt.

[RomfordPele]

Yep, Groundhog Day. This is all on wenger. Bad couple of results and we will be bricking it about finishing fourth.

Hope a succession plan is being worked out so we don't do a united when we finally ditch the complacent old sod.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

the twos things about this result that annoy me the most

a) Wenger has a ready made excuse with the penalty, which will detract from his team selection. Giroud, Arteta and Wilshere have no business wearing an arsenal shirt anymore than Wenger has any business being the manager

b) the media will reiterate their baseless claim that arsenal can't cope with physical opponents, stoke aren't a physical side they are just thugs, we have in recent years nullified their threat from longs balls and set pieces

All we have to look forward to now is the total collapse and being thankful for finishing 4th by a c**ts hair

[Marc Overmars]

Don't blame Giroud and Sanogo.

One of them has led the line all season without support and the other won a competition to play for us when he should be on his rounds as a postie.

WUMger has to accept responsibility for this one.

[milla]

the twos things about this result that annoy me the most

a) Wenger has a ready made excuse with the penalty, which will detract from his team selection. Giroud, Arteta and Wilshere have no business wearing an arsenal shirt anymore than Wenger has any business being the manager

b) the media will reiterate their baseless claim that arsenal can't cope with physical opponents, stoke aren't a physical side they are just thugs, we have in recent years nullified their threat from longs balls and set pieces

All we have to look forward to now is the total collapse and being thankful for finishing 4th by a c**ts hair

It is very clear now the problem is the manager not the players. Sack Wenger

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Don't blame Giroud and Sanogo.

One of them has led the line all season without support and the other won a competition to play for us when he should be on his rounds as a postie.

WUMger has to accept responsibility for this one.

well no fair enough it's not their fault they aren't good enough to wear the shirt, would you be any different if you were picking uo the pay packet they do on a fraudulent basis I know I wouldn't

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It is very clear now the problem is the manager not the players. Sack Wenger :coffee:

it's both, anyone who thinks we don't need to overhaul the squad is deluding themselves, Too many players have contracted wengeritis and there is nothing that can be done for them anymore

[milla]

it's both, anyone who thinks we don't need to overhaul the squad is deluding themselves, Too many players have contracted wengeritis and there is nothing that can be done for them anymore

Wengeritis has an easy cure, get rid of Wenger.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I felt sick watching us today and how effete we looked, no pace, no ideas....the back four and goalkeeper and the effort they put in is coming to nothing

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wengeritis has an easy cure, get rid of Wenger.

no it's incurable you only need to look at chamakh, arshavin, vermaelen etc to see that

[Xhaka Can’t]

well no fair enough it's not their fault they aren't good enough to wear the shirt, would you be any different if you were picking uo the pay packet they do on a fraudulent basis I know I wouldn't

I'd ask to be transferred to Spurs.

[ARightTouch]

Ill snap your hand off for 4th place now, after watching that and our last few games we are only going one way, DOWN. Giroud, Wilshere utter shit as usual. We lacked pace and urgency from the off, why didn't Ox start??? Hes our most influential player at the moment which says a lot. I love Wenger and what he has done for this club, but im getting bored and frustrated of his managerial reign now tbh.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I can't tell you how angry I am with Wenger today, all he needed to do was play Flamini and start with Ox and we would have won.....no Wilshere and Arteta

[milla]

I felt sick watching us today and how effete we looked, no pace, no ideas....the back four and goalkeeper and the effort they put in is coming to nothing

Hence why I said it is not even fun anymore. I used to enjoy our build up play, the through balls, the runs but these days it is a rare occasion. Then we have games like this when it is absolutely shower of shit whilst the old man getting his 70k a week. I am really sorry for our home/away fans, they deserve more for the money they have paid.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ill snap your hand off for 4th place now, after watching that and our last few games we are only going one way, DOWN. Giroud, Wilshere utter shit as usual. We lacked pace and urgency from the off, why didn't Ox start??? Hes our most influential player at the moment which says a lot. I love Wenger and what he has done for this club, but im getting bored and frustrated of his managerial reign now tbh.

I think the damage he has done to this club far exceeds any of his achievements, even with someone new it will take ages to reverse the damage he has done

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Hence why I said it is not even fun anymore. I used to enjoy our build up play, the through balls, the runs but these days it is a rare occasion. Then we have games like this when it is absolutely shower of shit whilst the old man getting his 70k a week. I am really sorry for our home/away fans, they deserve more for the money they have paid.
That wasn't a reply to you if I had done that I'd have replied with a quote so you'd know

[milla]

I'd ask to be transferred to Spurs.

Help yourself mate :D

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I'm not sure that's true, Wenger's brainfarts are holding us back from really achieving the top level but I think everything is set up for somebody else to see it through.

[milla]

I'm not sure that's true, Wenger's brainfarts are holding us back from really achieving the top level but I think everything is set up for somebody else to see it through.

Well if that is the case, the sooner he's gone the better. :pray:

[fakeyank]

Well if that is the case, the sooner he's gone the better. :pray:

Inshahallah it will be at the end of this season.

[Marc Overmars]

Well if that is the case, the sooner he's gone the better. :pray:

4 more years of Wenget to come.

[RomfordPele]

I think the damage he has done to this club far exceeds any of his achievements, even with someone new it will take ages to reverse the damage he has done

Bit pessimistic I think. We've got some really strong foundations, and a core of 7 or 8 players who are up there with the best. What we lack is a winning philosophy, and that comes 100% from wenger.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Inshahallah it will be at the end of this season.

He did infer he'd be doing one if we didn't win anything.

[fakeyank]

He did infer he'd be doing one if we didn't win anything.

He inferred it.. I hope he confirms it tbh.

[Letters]

I think the damage he has done to this club far exceeds any of his achievements, even with someone new it will take ages to reverse the damage he has done

Damage? Don't you think that's slightly over-stating it? We're hardly in mid-table or facing relegation.

[Xhaka Can’t]

He did infer he'd be doing one if we didn't win anything.

I think this could be the end if we don't win the FA Cup.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

you are deluding yourself he has already signed a contract extension, this dip in form means they are just postponing the announcement

[McNamara That Ghost...]

you are deluding yourself he has already signed a contract extension, this dip in form means they are just postponing the announcement

I don't think that's really true, it had supposedly been signed by him when we had won five games in the league in a row so why no announcement at that time?

[milla]

He did infer he'd be doing one if we didn't win anything.

He said he will if the board wouldn't guarantee him enough transfer fund to build his team.

[JonasTC]

Its all Wenger and the boards fault!!!111one :fury:

Giroud shows once again that he is among the worst strikers in the league, Arteta have never been and will never be able to play deep.

I still love you Arsenal and Wenger, you have all my support :bow:

[ARightTouch]

FML if he has signed a contract extension, I mean hes just too friggin old now and we need some change

Do we really have to wait until he doesn't qualify us for the champions league before he has to go?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Damage? Don't you think that's slightly over-stating it? We're hardly in mid-table or facing relegation.

we are commercially one of the biggest clubs in Europe, we pay more for tickets than almost any other club fan does in Europe. And with that we are saddled with strikers than should be playing for a club facing relegation, and a squad of players who have no respect for the manager or the club otherwise they wouldn't have played like that today. Ozil doesn't care if he doesn't play as long as he collects his pay packet, Wilshere shouldn't be playing for us anymore, based on his performances against United, liverpool and today Arteta needs to step down from professional football. We have money but so many of the squad are infected with wengeritis you would need a couple of seasons to get rid of them all and bring in fresh talent under a new man. Don't get me wrong it's not just the manager, the academy has been badly neglected by the club in general and we are not producing anything now.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I don't think we'll see an announcement and then watch on why he has his swansong. When he goes it is likely to be swift and unexpected.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGaJ5I04D7w

:(

[Maestro]

He did infer he'd be doing one if we didn't win anything.

true. the deal was meant to have been signed and announced next week, but wenget is holding back signing it

definitely think he'll decide to walk if we tank it

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Knew we'd be in trouble once I saw the starting 11.

Biggest mistake was benching the Ox who, just I had suspected and was confirmed after he came on, was the player we had most likely to cause them worries.

Oh well, back to fighting for 4th it is then.

Progress?

[selassie]

I had a bad feeling about todays game. All we need now is to lose to Everton next week in the FA Cup to complete the annual collapse.

[adzzzbatch]

I had a bad feeling about todays game. All we need now is to lose to Everton next week in the FA Cup to complete the annual collapse.

Well we normally go out of the CL and FA cup in the same week so it's on the cards.

[milla]

Well we normally go out of the CL and FA cup in the same week so it's on the cards.

We better than wasting time until May. At least the club can focus and finding replacement for Wenger.

[Chippy]

Damage? Don't you think that's slightly over-stating it? We're hardly in mid-table or facing relegation.
No, but when we are playing Europa League next season, that will cause the damage. Please fuck off Mr Wumger.

[ARightTouch]

No, but when we are playing Europa League next season, that will cause the damage. Please fuck off Mr Wumger.

At least if we are in the Europa League we will have a better chance of winning something

[Letters]

No, but when we are playing Europa League next season, that will cause the damage. Please fuck off Mr Wumger.

You don't think we'll finish in the top 4?

[ARightTouch]

Liverpool 1-0 up, we are now 3rd, realistically 4th because City have 2 games in hand.

When Tottenham beat Cardiff at home tomorrow they will be 6 points behind us.


Premier League Tottenham V Arsenal Sun 16 Mar 16:00

How big does this game now become????

[Globalgunner]

At least if we are in the Europa League we will have a better chance of winning something

We have been in the Europe league before and lost the final to Galafukintasaray. So don't get your hopes up. We do have the balance sheet cup, though. We've been winning that one for years

[Ernesto]

Just coming back from the game now.

In spite of all round cuntishness from the likes of Peters, Adam, Crouch, Walters and Shawcross, it really was à pitiful performance and painful to watch.

We CAN win the FA Cup and we CAN finish in the top 3 if we get our acts together. But it's a big if.

I'm going to have nightmares of Santi Cazorla initiating à promising counter attack, only to pull off a nonsensical spinerooni and allowing Stoke to hoarde numbers back, sideways passing it to Rosicky, who looks up to find Giroud making about as intelligent à run as a blind squirrel.

[Chippy]

You don't think we'll finish in the top 4?
I honestly believe we will finish fifth. Our run in is terrible Mr Letters! :(

[milla]

Just coming back from the game now.

In spite of all round cuntishness from the likes of Peters, Adam, Crouch, Walters and Shawcross, it really was à pitiful performance and painful to watch.

We CAN win the FA Cup and we CAN finish in the top 3 if we get our acts together. But it's a big if.

I'm going to have nightmares of Santi Cazorla initiating à promising counter attack, only to pull off a nonsensical spinerooni and allowing Stoke to hoarde numbers back, sideways passing it to Rosicky, who looks up to find Giroud making about as intelligent à run as a blind squirrel.

Bullshit, blind squirrel makes better run than Giroud. Giroud is utter shit.

[Özim]

I'm amazed anyone is surprised by this, it's been happening every season for 8 years before this season, we get in good positions then are found wanting when there is something on the line. Last season when there were no trophies to be played for we coasted nicely to 4th place.

The pressure of anything but 4th place seems to be too much for us, I don't know if it's the pressure on the manager as he never seems to get his team setup right either, I'm over it to be honest, it's never going to change under the current management, all we're going to feel is disappointment when we inevitably fall short.

If we were really serious about success we'd have either signed the players we needed last summer, or moved mountains to get them in January, we didn't and the rest is history.

[Özim]

I'm going to have nightmares of Santi Cazorla initiating à promising counter attack, only to pull off a nonsensical spinerooni and allowing Stoke to hoarde numbers back, sideways passing it to Rosicky, who looks up to find Giroud making about as intelligent à run as a blind squirrel.

That's a fundamental problem with our style of play to be honest, we've been doing it all season, opportunities of counters have been wasted as we more often than not insist on checking back and passing sideways allowing the opposition to get back.

I think the problem is the players have this short pass pass football ingrained into their minds by Wenger and counter attacking just doesn't fit into that, that leaves us looking for intricate passing moves like we managed last week against Sunderland which only really ever come off occasionally.

Oxo doesn't seem to have been infected by this pass pass madness yet, but a couple more years and he'll probably end up doing the same.

What a total waste.

[Letters]

I honestly believe we will finish fifth. Our run in is terrible Mr Letters! :(

We do have a horrible run coming up but the last 5 games are all winnable. We'll probably pub team it into 4th :patrice:
:(

[IBK]

Finding our true level TBH. Progress? 4th is 4th - no matter what's come before. Webger can do 1/2 a season. But his failure to invest in his team is there for all to see.

[Marc Overmars]

Finding our true level TBH. Progress? 4th is 4th - no matter what's come before. Webger can do 1/2 a season. But his failure to invest in his team is there for all to see.

A specialist in failure, you could say.

[Master Splinter]

MO in full-on sly WUM mode.

His wrists are next :rose:.

[IBK]

Finding our true level TBH. Progress? 4th is 4th - no matter what's come before. Webger can do 1/2 a season. But his failure to invest in his team is there for all to see.

Its the inevitability that is so depressing...

[Chippy]

We do have a horrible run coming up but the last 5 games are all winnable. We'll probably pub team it into 4th :patrice:
:(
I am not being otherwise, but a small part of me hopes that we don't get fourth. I am sick and tired of watching Wengers tactics and scraping fourth and pretending it is a trophy. When he finally spends big, he wastes it on Ozil! I am seriously in a bad mood over another gutless performance. We need some fresh management ideas.

[Munchies]

Top 4 and the FA cup would be a perfect season.

Although this was our best chance at the league.

Moyes will either go or spend £££ massively in the summer.
Chelsea will probably get Diego Costa/Higuain.
City will be City.
Liverpool will spend that CL money.

:rose:

[IBK]

I am not being otherwise, but a small part of me hopes that we don't get fourth. I am sick and tired of watching Wengers tactics and scraping fourth and pretending it is a trophy. When he finally spends big, he wastes it on Ozil! I am seriously in a bad mood over another gutless performance. We need some fresh management ideas.

Problem is that Wenger knows how to finish fourth. Its his speciality. In fact if you are cynical - he is the expert at doing the absolute bare minimum to maintain interest in our club.

[IBK]

Top 4 and the FA cup would be a perfect season.

Although this was our best chance at the league.

Moyes will either go or spend £££ massively in the summer.
Chelsea will probably get Diego Costa/Higuain.
City will be City.
Liverpool will spend that CL money.

:rose:

It would be a perfect season given our aspirations these days. But we all know the FA Cup is a long shot - given our history in big games. Our nickname should be the paper tigers!

[Ernesto]

That's a fundamental problem with our style of play to be honest, we've been doing it all season, opportunities of counters have been wasted as we more often than not insist on checking back and passing sideways allowing the opposition to get back.

I think the problem is the players have this short pass pass football ingrained into their minds by Wenger and counter attacking just doesn't fit into that, that leaves us looking for intricate passing moves like we managed last week against Sunderland which only really ever come off occasionally.

Oxo doesn't seem to have been infected by this pass pass madness yet, but a couple more years and he'll probably end up doing the same.

What a total waste.

To be honest, Zim (and while I don't want to make this à whole "door cause analysis"- this is only à reactionary post to à single match) I believe our play changed with the introduction of Fabregas. Couple to that Mourinho, Allardyce and Pulis pushing back football by 20 years, and it all contributed to Arsenal's trophyless drought.

Fabregas was always dragging counter attacks back. Wenger thinks it's the right way forward (Hence the way Cazorla plays). He's wrong.

[IBK]

To be honest, Zim (and while I don't want to make this à whole "door cause analysis"- this is only à reactionary post to à single match) I believe our play changed with the introduction of Fabregas. Couple to that Mourinho, Allardyce and Pulis pushing back football by 20 years, and it all contributed to Arsenal's trophyless drought.

Fabregas was always dragging counter attacks back. Wenger thinks it's the right way forward (Hence the way Cazorla plays). He's wrong.

Aye - we haven't counter attacked effectively for years.

[Bumble]

think we should have just gone an extra £10-15m on top of the ozil money for suarez instead. he would be firing us to the title this season.

[Power n Glory]

To be honest, Zim (and while I don't want to make this à whole "door cause analysis"- this is only à reactionary post to à single match) I believe our play changed with the introduction of Fabregas. Couple to that Mourinho, Allardyce and Pulis pushing back football by 20 years, and it all contributed to Arsenal's trophyless drought.

Fabregas was always dragging counter attacks back. Wenger thinks it's the right way forward (Hence the way Cazorla plays). He's wrong.

Our inability to counter attack is down to team selection and it's not philosophical. We have a very organic style and We very leaves a lot of the decision making down to the players. That's why he's never barking orders from the touch line. Overall, we like quick passing football an; I can't imagine Wenger saying anything to discourage that.

[Power n Glory]

Aye - we haven't counter attacked effectively for years.

Didn't Pod score a really good counter attacking goal against Liverpool? We've done a lot of counter attacks this season but it's in spurts. Depends on the opposition and our personnel.

[Munchies]

It would be a perfect season given our aspirations these days. But we all know the FA Cup is a long shot - given our history in big games. Our nickname should be the paper tigers!

Oh no doubting that, as soon as we meet City, we're fucked !

[Ernesto]

Our inability to counter attack is down to team selection and it's not philosophical. We have a very organic style and We very leaves a lot of the decision making down to the players. That's why he's never barking orders from the touch line. Overall, we like quick passing football an; I can't imagine Wenger saying anything to discourage that.

Hmm, to some extent, I agree. Wenger hasn't signed the likes of Rosicky and Ozil to pull play back. However, for every Ramsey and Rosicky and direct, attacking play, there's an Arteta and a Wilshere. I wouldn't trust either of these in a 3-on-2 counter-attacking scénario.

[IBK]

Didn't Pod score a really good counter attacking goal against Liverpool? We've done a lot of counter attacks this season but it's in spurts. Depends on the opposition and our personnel.

We haven't based our game on counter attacking for years. Not to say we can't do so on occasion, as your example shows. But our default style is possession football, not counter attacking.

[Power n Glory]

We haven't based our game on counter attacking for years. Not to say we can't do so on occasion, as your example shows. But our default style is possession football, not counter attacking.

It's all about circumstances. If we play a team that can dominate possession, we'll defend in numbers and look to hit them on the break. Against teams that sit deep and play more defensive, we naturally dominate possession. When we lacked cohesion in the middle earlier in the season, we looked to hit teams in the break more because we couldn't string together quick intricate passing.

[Xhaka Can’t]

We haven't based our game on counter attacking for years. Not to say we can't do so on occasion, as your example shows. But our default style is possession football, not counter attacking.

I think we saw more of the game based around a counter-attacking philosophy towards the start of the season, when we had more success. That approach seems to have fizzled away completely into the nothingness we see today. By today, I mean recently. I didn't watch the match today and have no intention of doing so - not even highlights.

Though if someone wants to post a gif of the pel incident, I wouldn't mind looking at that.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

There's nothing inherently wrong with 'posession' football, it's at it most effective with quick interchanging passes and off the ball movement but none of that was in evidence today and that's part of the reason why it was a dreadful performance.

Counter-attacking still has to be coached effectively, it doesn't automatically garner you any more points, hence why we've been so close for most of the season against teams that employ it far more often than we do.

I said that it doesn't matter how you lose against teams (if it's a hammering or a close one) if it can be forgotten about but based on the apparent tentativeness since, it's looking like everybody is afraid to possibly vacate space behind them by running forward. That didn't matter for Ramsey because he covered all the ground anyway and probably why we're missing him so much.

[IBK]

I think we saw more of the game based around a counter-attacking philosophy towards the start of the season, when we had more success. That approach seems to have fizzled away completely into the nothingness we see today. By today, I mean recently. I didn't watch the match today and have no intention of doing so - not even highlights.

Though if someone wants to post a gif of the pel incident, I wouldn't mind looking at that.

For us, counter-attacking has been the exception rather than the rule for years. Difficult to argue against that. TBH.

[Power n Glory]

There's nothing inherently wrong with 'posession' football, it's at it most effective with quick interchanging passes and off the ball movement but none of that was in evidence today and that's part of the reason why it was a dreadful performance.

Counter-attacking still has to be coached effectively, it doesn't automatically garner you any more points, hence why we've been so close for most of the season against teams that employ it far more often than we do.

I said that it doesn't matter how you lose against teams (if it's a hammering or a close one) if it can be forgotten about but based on the apparent tentativeness since, it's looking like everybody is afraid to possibly vacate space behind them by running forward. That didn't matter for Ramsey because he covered all the ground anyway and probably why we're missing him so much.

I agree with that. We'll always suffer if we look lifeless and not on our toes. When we were winning 'ugly' earlier in the season and we looked a million miles away from the flashy old Arsenal, Wenger did say the fluidity would come back but we have a solid defensive foundation and that's enough to build off. He was confident we'd find our rhythm and we have to an extent. But you get games like this where we just don't seem to be at the races which is a complete contrast to our game against Sunderland.

I've heard Wenger talk in the past about being patient when searching for a goal, not making mistakes and a goal will come but I think that's where we can also go wrong and get these flat lifeless performances. Maybe it's overconfidence and we think and opportunity will present itself if we stay patient, pass and try to tire out the opposition. Yet to see the game but I doubt I'm in for a major shock. We've seen these sort of performances before.

[saintnickle]

Don't blame Giroud and Sanogo.

One of them has led the line all season without support and the other won a competition to play for us when he should be on his rounds as a postie.

WUMger has to accept responsibility for this one.

We have giroud and sanogo upfront , not a problem with them two.What i do think is criminal tho is having giroud and sanogo up front with 70 million still lying in the bank and having any aspirations on winning the league .That is the problem . Anyone who can defend wenger and his last 2 transfer windows are utterly blind.

[Munchies]

We have giroud and sanogo upfront , not a problem with them two.What i do think is criminal tho is having giroud and sanogo up front with 70 million still lying in the bank and having any aspirations on winning the league .That is the problem . Anyone who can defend wenger and his last 2 transfer windows are utterly blind.

Add in Higuain for Giroud. Just look at a highlight video of Higuain, he creates most chances out of nothing.
And Gustavo for Arteta.

We'd be top of the league.

Both players that Wenger haggled a fee over.

[Chippy]

Add in Higuain for Giroud. Just look at a highlight video of Higuain, he creates most chances out of nothing.
And Gustavo for Arteta.

We'd be top of the league.

Both players that Wenger haggled a fee over.
What is worse than this is how we handled the Suarez deal. We took the piss by offering £40m +£1. Fucking terrible. We could have got him for possibly £48m. Unfortunately, we insulted them and they told us to fuck off. Simples! We could have won the league this year, but we may not even get fourth.

[Niall_Quinn]

Missed it. Sounds like we went all negative again. Plainly the CL has been prioritised, we played proper football for that one until it went tits up. Saw Jones was the ref beforehand and knew it would be a tough day. Amazing decision to leave Ox out. Again, probably to rest him for the CL. Hard not to be suspicious the finances are the main goal again. 3rd or 4th still brings in a tidy amount but the CL is icing. Hopefully this is to underpin a proper push for players in the summer. If not then weapons at dawn.

[Niall_Quinn]

And of course, title = over/

[Munchies]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZYpK4r2UG8&feature=youtu.be&a

Good to see he singled out the player who needs to fuck off.

And :console:

It's gotten so predictable that all you can really do is laugh. :haha:

[RomfordPele]

Hopefully this is to underpin a proper push for players in the summer.

Do you really believe this?

I mean, they've sold us the same old shit every year since 2004. We will sit on our hands this summer as we do every summer. Wenger will blame the World Cup for inflating prices, talk about how competitive the market is for world class strikers, and say what a difference theo is going to make when he comes back.

Rinse and repeat.

[milla]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZYpK4r2UG8&feature=youtu.be&a

Good to see he singled out the player who needs to fuck off.

And :console:

It's gotten so predictable that all you can really do is laugh. :haha:

Giroud (and lately Jack) really needs to feck off, doing jack shit on the pitch.

[Niall_Quinn]

Do you really believe this?

I mean, they've sold us the same old shit every year since 2004. We will sit on our hands this summer as we do every summer. Wenger will blame the World Cup for inflating prices, talk about how competitive the market is for world class strikers, and say what a difference theo is going to make when he comes back.

Rinse and repeat.

It's not a question of belief. Summer 2014 is when the financial plan matures by their calculations. It certainly seems to be the case with the much improved commercial deals coming online. I doubt we'd have seen a £42mill signing if there hadn't been a significant change in the financial environment. The purpose of the stadium move was to position us to compete with the top clubs in Europe. Now whether they meant in terms of success on the pitch or purely financially we'll see. The point is, this is a football club and come Summer 2014 there are no more financial excuses that can be used to cover lack of investment in the business end of football - the shit that happens on the pitch. This is crunch point, after all these years. Either they were genuine or they were lying. We'll know in a few months.

[Ralpheroo72]

This.

Pel or no pel, we created nothing until Sanogo's NFL field goal.


:gp:

2 shots on target tells the whole story. No pace out wide, and even if there was, we have no strikers. Could have been addressed in Jan, Should have been addressed, but there you go. Money IS there, because of the 42.5M spunked on Ozil, so the fault lies with the manager.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZYpK4r2UG8&feature=youtu.be&a

Good to see he singled out the player who needs to fuck off.

And :console:

It's gotten so predictable that all you can really do is laugh. :haha:

I must have mellowed bit this all comes across as people taking it way too seriously. I remember crying when Brooking fell over and the ball hit his head and went in the net. But I was a kid.

[Niall_Quinn]

:gp:

2 shots on target tells the whole story. No pace out wide, and even if there was, we have no strikers. Could have been addressed in Jan, Should have been addressed, but there you go. Money IS there, because of the 42.5M spunked on Ozil, so the fault lies with the manager.

Wenger is way too conservative this season. It paid off early on because I guess we caught out most of our opponents with our sudden willingness to actually defend and shit. Teams set out to stifle us in the past. Now we are stifling ourselves in order to keep things as tight as possible at the back. Suggests we aren't yet good enough to have an attacking style of play underpinned by a stable defence. It hints at the defensive performances being just as much about a more defensive middle that has helped out the back five whereas before we tended to throw them under the bus. Which is why we went after Suarez I guess. You need a hell of a good player up top to make things happen in the system we are playing.

[Ralpheroo72]

It would be nice to think that Bergkamps recent visit, coupled with the statue, has something to do with a succession plan at the end of the season. He has been around top clubs all his career, has been schooled the Ajax way, and knows how to win things. Unproven as a manager, but worth a shout, and keeps the top job within the Arsenal family.

[GP]

http://i.imgur.com/FmYjcHV.gif

[Munchies]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XOJ7lA6fNU&list=UUBTy8j2cPy6zw68godcE7MQ&feature=c4-overview

:haha: :haha: :haha:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Title over.

[fakeyank]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/3334057/top-gear-wheels-coming-off-o.gif

[AFC Leveller]

Liverpool level on points, have the momentum and score goals for fun. The way they can score so easily against anybody is frightning and doesnt bode well for our prospects this season. We are 9 above Sours but if they win their game today they'll be 6 behind. When you consider who we play this month, its now looking like 4th spot is under serious threat.

[Ernesto]

I must have mellowed bit this all comes across as people taking it way too seriously. I remember crying when Brooking fell over and the ball hit his head and went in the net. But I was a kid.

Thing is, Quinny, when you've travelled that far, paid that much and been subjected to abject sh!t, then emotions will run high.

The morning after the night before, the crying seems absurd but in the immediate aftermath, you just want to punch someone. (Preferably Crouch)

[Ernesto]

Liverpool level on points, have the momentum and score goals for fun. The way they can score so easily against anybody is frightning and doesnt bode well for our prospects this season. We are 9 above Sours but if they win their game today they'll be 6 behind. When you consider who we play this month, its now looking like 4th spot is under serious threat.

Can't believe we're supporting United in their next fixture, tbh :-( there's a first time for everything...

[Gubby Allen]

Discussing what league position Arsenal will finish, in any season is no different to discussing what letter of the alphabet the word 'Arsenal' will begin with at the end of the season. We know the answer for this season, next season and the next five.

The only difference is they like to alternate the different ways of doing it.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It would be nice to think that Bergkamps recent visit, coupled with the statue, has something to do with a succession plan at the end of the season. He has been around top clubs all his career, has been schooled the Ajax way, and knows how to win things. Unproven as a manager, but worth a shout, and keeps the top job within the Arsenal family.

Bergkamp is my favourite player of all time. But if he can't make it to half of our European fixtures, he is not a realistic option.

[AFC Leveller]

Thing is, Quinny, when you've travelled that far, paid that much and been subjected to abject sh!t, then emotions will run high.

The morning after the night before, the crying seems absurd but in the immediate aftermath, you just want to punch someone. (Preferably Crouch)

I reckon Liverpool will do them. Man u are shit, they have a shit record in the big games and are shit at home.

[Injury Time]

I must have mellowed bit this all comes across as people taking it way too seriously. I remember crying when Brooking fell over and the ball hit his head and went in the net. But I was a kid.

I still hate West Ham more than all others because of that, pass the tissues :crying:

[footloose, the wanderer]

Wenger must not be given a new contract, period! We lost not because we don't have players but they were told not play the winning ways.

What absolute cobblers

[Injury Time]

Bergkamp is my favourite player of all time. But if he can't make it to half of our European fixtures, he is not a realistic option.
Not if we fail to get into Europe :good: oh hold on :angry:

[pmakgreb]

Wilshere is so overrated. He offers very little bar drawing the odd foul. He has no pace and gets knocked off the ball to easy. I dont really know what he offers. Ramsey cant come back quick enough. Badly missing walcott. Id play ox on the wing to offer abit of pace as we are so one dimensional at present.

4th at best though if spurs beat us we will only be 3 ahead of them. They are shit away from home too so we are lucky in that regard and they will drop points.

[AFC Leveller]

I think Jack clearly has talent but his performance have bene inconsistant and really frustrating. He gets barged out of the way and against the big sides this season, hes been one of our worst players.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XOJ7lA6fNU&list=UUBTy8j2cPy6zw68godcE7MQ&feature=c4-overview

:haha: :haha: :haha:

That makes me sad. People have lost faith quickly and it's all so predictable. We should have bought in January but I also have no idea why we didn't turn up today. Wenger gave the players a two day rest!

[Munchies]

Wenger had to strengthen the team properly last summer. Failing that we had to push on by making 2-3 signings in January. This was our best chance at the league in 6 years (07/08) . If we don't win it this season, which I think is out of reach now given the games to go, it's going to be even harder next season.

It's massively disappointing when the whole core of the team is there but we aren't making attempts to improve it. Same shit happens every fucking summer, you could go back to the old GW board and see the same topics made. Wenger isn't able to see where the team needs improving. All that money which is just sitting there in the club, what's the use ? Don't the club realise, if you invest money properly in the team, it'd make you more competitive = more likely to win trophies = more sponsorships/income generated. As Arsenal fans, we're not expecting the club to go out, spend a truckload and get into debt, we're just asking for investment into the club with the funds which are already there. There's none of it. Highest ticket prices in the whole league and an increase in prices next season :lol: .

We only really needed a top striker, a fast CDM, and a proper winger on the left hand side.

We end up playing Cazorla on the left, and he's a class player but he's not a winger. He gets wasted out there. Podolski hasn't cut it whenever he has played so he's probably off in the summer. In terms of Ozil playing, he has Giroud in front of him who's far too slow and offers literally no movement at all, not to mention he's pretty shit at everything a striker has to be somewhat decent at. Walcott/Ox on the right hand side is pretty good as there is pace there, but then it becomes easy to defend against when it's the only outlet we have down one side. At Real, he had Di Maria,Ronaldo,Benzema all running wild, so it's not hard to see why he's finding it difficult here.

Don't expect the upcoming summer transfer window to be any different, he'll be watching the world cup with Canal+ earning millions more as a pundit, so he'll use that as an excuse to signing Fukin NoOne , and complain about inflated prices yet again. Fuck sake. No trophies this year, then he needs to go. Don't want him to oversee another transfer window here.

[Injury Time]

I think Jack clearly has talent but his performance have bene inconsistant and really frustrating. He gets barged out of the way and against the big sides this season, hes been one of our worst players.

He's the new old Ramsay. Indeed, if he's static when the ball comes to him anyone over 2 foot tall "knocks" him off the ball. Bored of Wenger "saving" players, get some squad depth or maybe start your best team bang 3 in* THEN "rest" them.

*yes I know that's never been our approach

[Munchies]

We could've got in this guy, had Wenger not haggled over the fee :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oqq1hsFQc18

Just look at most of his goals, Giroud can't do anything of the sort.

[JonasTC]

We would also have Yaya Toure, C.Ronaldo and Zlatan, if he hadnt haggled for prices when they were young.

Its all Wengers fault. Wenger out :fury:

[Munchies]

We would also have Yaya Toure, C.Ronaldo and Zlatan, if he hadnt haggled for prices when they were young.

Its all Wengers fault. Wenger out :fury:

:good:

[JonasTC]

Tbf we actually did have a deal with C.Ronaldo, #9 printed shirt and everything, but United made a smart move and hired someone from Sporting Lissabon, so Cristiano, the mama's boy he is, didnt have to feel alone and ended up signing for united instead.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Tbf we actually did have a deal with C.Ronaldo, #9 printed shirt and everything, but United made a smart move and hired someone from Sporting Lissabon, so Cristiano, the mama's boy he is, didnt have to feel alone and ended up signing for united instead.

No one cares.

What is happening now is what were interested in.

And that is fucking Groundhog Day again

[KSE Comedy Club]

What really fucked me off before the game was loading up the SSN app and seeing the headlines 'wenger says March will define arsenals season'

I just couldn't believe I was reading exactly what I have done for the past 2-3 years again.

The collapse is on, and at this rate well be lucky to finish 5th.

I have absolutely no faith that we will win anything this year, it's been knocked right out of me.

I've said not strengthening in January was the problem, and I stand by it.

Fuck this shit, wenger can shove his new contract up his arse!

[JonasTC]

No one cares.

What is happening now is what were interested in.

And that is fucking Groundhog Day again

Yet, your biggest argument for hating on your club and manager, is what have happend in the last 8 years :d

[Munchies]

Yet, your biggest argument for hating on your club and manager, is what have happend in the last 8 years :d

Not really, it's about now.

We're blaming Wenger for not improving the team right now.

He hasn't improved the team over the last 8 years either.

[JonasTC]

If its about now, then why are you guys not happy? :s 4 points from 1st place and quarter-final match at home in the FA cup.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If its about now, then why are you guys not happy? :s 4 points from 1st place and quarter-final match at home in the FA cup.

Based on today's performance how many points do you see us picking up in the next four league games away at spurs, away at chelsea, home to man city, away at everton?. One if we are lucky.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Not really, it's about now.

We're blaming Wenger for not improving the team right now.

He hasn't improved the team over the last 8 years either.

if you are comparing this team to one 8 years ago then yes of course he hasn't improved it but he was never going to because the team 8 years ago just happened to be the finest team he has ever created, and quite simply the greatest team to have won a premier league title.

He has improved the team this year, the fact that this time last year we were about 15 points off top and this year we are only 4 and still, more by maths then reality still in the title race is huge improvement. lots of areas to work on though which is where Arsene has made his mistakes like not buying a striker. however interesting quotes going around this morning from liverpool's owner. there was a 40 million buy out clause in suarez contract but john henry refused to sell on the basis that he felt Arsenal wouldn't take them to court. shows our information was correct and why we wouldn't go over 40 million because there legally was a buy out clause, the question of should we have gone over is of course valid and yes we should have. ozil and suarez in this team and the title would be ours already.

we have improved, and there is no point looking at the team now and 8 years ago and saying we haven't improved because thats stupid. look at the last two years, races for fourth clinched on the last day, this season could end up going the same way, but it also currently is one game away from wembley. if we somehow come third and in touching distance of the winners and by that i mean 5 points or less then huge improvement has been made and if we get to the FA Cup final and somehow win the thing then it will be an outstanding season. There are huge faults with Arsene, his tactics yesterday were wrong, and I'm not liking this slow starting thing, why can't we play like we did against bayern however players have to take the blame too. Take podolski, acts like he is pissed off being subbed or not starting, yet plays like he did yesterday? some players are coasting and its not good enough but i guess ultimately the blame lies with ARsene. still time to make this season a good one, and yes there has been improvement

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

in fact the more i look at those fixtures the more it strikes me that top four is an uphill battle for us, spurs and everton have every real chance of finishing above us.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Based on today's performance how many points do you see us picking up in the next four league games away at spurs, away at chelsea, home to man city, away at everton?. One if we are lucky.

12

on a completely unrelated note, this vodka tastes nice

[McNamara That Ghost...]

in fact the more i look at those fixtures the more it strikes me that top four is an uphill battle for us, spurs and everton have every real chance of finishing above us.

Nah, we aren't the only ones that have tough fixtures. Tottenham have Chelsea away next weekend for instance. Then us, Southampton and Liverpool (a).

[Munchies]

if you are comparing this team to one 8 years ago then yes of course he hasn't improved it but he was never going to because the team 8 years ago just happened to be the finest team he has ever created, and quite simply the greatest team to have won a premier league title.

The only way to judge if we've improved or not is whether we've won something at the end of the season. I don't really care if we're 4 off the top now, because at the end of it, we won't win it. Spurs away, Everton away, Chelsea away, City home, we'll struggle to even get a point or two from these 4, last time we won at SHL in the league was when Ade scored that goal.

The Fa Cup, yeah it's our strongest chance of winning something. Hopefully we can win it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

well if we get he same points in these fixtures as we did last season we will really adrift by April and nothing suggests that we will or that we have improved that much on last season.

Fulham (h), liverpool (h), Aston villa (a), Chelsea (h), Sunderland (h) picked up nine points more this season from those fixtures than we did last season

City (a), West Brom (a), Villa (h), Liverpool (a), Stoke (a) - picked uo ten points fewer than we did from these fixtures last season.

So it's a bit of a nonsense to say we are substantially better off, the fact that we challenged for the title at all was because all the easier fixtures were played in the first half of our season.

[JonasTC]

The logic is strong with this one :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

well if we get he same points in these fixtures as we did last season we will really adrift by April and nothing suggests that we will or that we have improved that much on last season.

Fulham (h), liverpool (h), Aston villa (a), Chelsea (h), Sunderland (h) picked up nine points more this season from those fixtures than we did last season

City (a), West Brom (a), Villa (h), Liverpool (a), Stoke (a) - picked uo ten points fewer than we did from these fixtures last season.

So it's a bit of a nonsense to say we are substantially better off, the fact that we challenged for the title at all was because all the easier fixtures were played in the first half of our season.

I think comparisons of this type are a bit misguided. Take West Brom for instance, playing them away early in the season was a much tougher fixture then that it would be now (like we did towards the end of last season) because the grind of the season had not taken shape and the overall confidence would not be as dented.

If we win five games we'll have a point more than last season, that's nothing to shout about of course but I don't really think finishing lower than fourth is in danger. I do think we need Ramsey in his going mental development stage though.

[Marc Overmars]

Our defence is the only reason we have any title aspirations. Our attack is garbage by comparison and probably the biggest reason we've started to fade.

[Munchies]

Reading that we should've taken Liverpool to court over Suarez, he did have a £40m clause, the cunts played it out perfectly :lol:

John Henry has admitted that Suarez did have a £40m buyout clause but refused to sell him, gambling on Arsenal not taking them to court [AR]

Ffs, should've pressed harder :doh: , offered £50m and we'd have signed him.

[Özim]

We would also have Yaya Toure, C.Ronaldo and Zlatan, if he hadnt haggled for prices when they were young.

Its all Wengers fault. Wenger out :fury:

Of course it's his fault, he's the manager he lives by the sword dies by the sword. If his team don't win anything for 9 years and fail every time they have a good opportunity there's only one common denominator.

[JonasTC]

Reading that we should've taken Liverpool to court over Suarez, he did have a £40m clause, the cunts played it out perfectly :lol:

John Henry has admitted that Suarez did have a £40m buyout clause but refused to sell him, gambling on Arsenal not taking them to court [AR]

Ffs, should've pressed harder :doh: , offered £50m and we'd have signed him.

Dunno how rules/laws work, but can we take them to court now and then get him for 40 (in the summer)?.... Make it happend Arsenal :bow:

[Munchies]

Dunno how rules/laws work, but can we take them to court now and then get him for 40 (in the summer)?.... Make it happend Arsenal :bow:

No clue, a big part of it would be if he wants to leave though. If they get CL, is offered even more money, he won't agree terms with us. CL was the only draw.

[Penguin]

Our lack of quality in the final third is shocking. I'm not just talking about our centre forwards, pretty much all of our players are ineffective at breaking down teams and scoring goals and make it hard work every game. Toothless.

[Özim]

There's no chance of getting Suarez, if he moves it will be to one of the really big clubs like Barca, or Real, he seems happy at Liverpool, they look like they'll be in the CL and to be honest they are probably on an upward cycle and a marginally better side than us overall, can't see why he would want to move to us now tbh.

[Tipsychubbs]

To be honest, Zim (and while I don't want to make this à whole "door cause analysis"- this is only à reactionary post to à single match) I believe our play changed with the introduction of Fabregas. Couple to that Mourinho, Allardyce and Pulis pushing back football by 20 years, and it all contributed to Arsenal's trophyless drought.

Fabregas was always dragging counter attacks back. Wenger thinks it's the right way forward (Hence the way Cazorla plays). He's wrong.

Years ago I remember being infuriated that Wenger had replaced Viera with Cesc. Cesc was talented but too young to take up the burden He would slow our play down so much, then what does Wenger do? Build the team around him. We went form having a powerful, mobile, box to box all rounder, complemented by a sitter in Gilberto to an young inexperienced AMF learning to play CMF and slowing our counters down, and with Gilberto being a sitter we now had sitters. Later on Cesc came good but it took a while when because wasn't ready for the role.

Then Wenger changed to a possession based style intead of our faster movement based attacking style, and here we are. Little movement, dribbling and penetration, just sideways and backwards passing.

[Özim]

Our lack of quality in the final third is shocking. I'm not just talking about our centre forwards, pretty much all of our players are ineffective at breaking down teams and scoring goals and make it hard work every game. Toothless.

Lack of pace in our attacks that's the problem, when we have played with pace (very rarely) we've looked dangerous, unfortunately Wenger is obssessed with tippy tappy and just won't let it go.

I think it's boring and largely ineffective, we're better to watch when we release the ball quickly and don't check back or pass it sideways, we're also more likeley to score. The manager is just too stubborn for his own good.

[Özim]

Years ago I remember being infuriated that Wenger had replaced Viera with Cesc. Cesc was talented but too young to take up the burden He would slow our play down so much, then what does Wenger do? Build the team around him. We went form having a powerful, mobile, box to box all rounder, complemented by a sitter in Gilberto to an young inexperienced AMF learning to play CMF and slowing our counters down, and with Gilberto being a sitter we now had sitters. Later on Cesc came good but it took a while when because wasn't ready for the role.

Then Wenger changed to a possession based style intead of our faster movement based attacking style, and here we are. Little movement, dribbling and penetration, just sideways and backwards passing.

Pretty much and on top of that it's shite to watch to be honest, but you know how it is, he never learns and sticks to his guns year on year. You'd think after failing to pick up anything for 8 years he might consider something different.

I won't pull any punches, I put all the blame on Wenger for this, his team, his tactics, his subs, his team selections, his style of play, his decisions not to sign players and rely on crocks.

[Munchies]

I won't pull any punches, I put all the blame on Wenger for this, his team, his tactics, his subs, his team selections, his style of play, his decisions not to sign players and rely on crocks.

:good:

[AFC Leveller]

I also think that this team knows it has more or les reached its target (top 4) and can afford to take things easily now. These players and manager only get going when their beloved trophy is in danger of slipping away. When Villa were good in 08/09, Wenger went out and bought Arshavin and gave a really good go to make sure we finished top 4. Last season, when we lost to Spuds and looked likely to miss out, the team suddently found their mojo and got there in the end.

I just think that they only get going if/when CL footy is in danger.

[Power n Glory]

Years ago I remember being infuriated that Wenger had replaced Viera with Cesc. Cesc was talented but too young to take up the burden He would slow our play down so much, then what does Wenger do? Build the team around him. We went form having a powerful, mobile, box to box all rounder, complemented by a sitter in Gilberto to an young inexperienced AMF learning to play CMF and slowing our counters down, and with Gilberto being a sitter we now had sitters. Later on Cesc came good but it took a while when because wasn't ready for the role.

Then Wenger changed to a possession based style intead of our faster movement based attacking style, and here we are. Little movement, dribbling and penetration, just sideways and backwards passing.

I never understood that theory. Cesc plays like he has eyes at the back of his hand and can release an inch perfect pass that sets us off on attack in one move. Surely it's down to the players he's surrounded by and the opposition we face. Games vary. Just look at the contrast between our style in the Champs League when we reached the final to our actual league performance. We were restricted to counter attacks in the Champs League and it was pretty successful when you think of the goals we scored. None of this pinning teams back and trying to break them down, we were hitting teams on the break.

In the league, teams were scared to come out and play against us. They'd park the bus, restricted space between the lines and stay compact. You also have to consider the fact that we played with a 4-4-2 for a very long time whilst other Prem teams were playing 4-5-1 or 4-3-3. They always had an extra man in the middle that could press Cesc and Gilberto. Cesc able to evade tackles and pass it off without getting rushed and he'd make the right pass 9/10 times. But Gilberto struggled when pressed and couldn't get the ball from out under his feet or made hurried passes that put someone else under pressure. It was a major issue always have a 2 v 3 situation in the middle of the park and Wenger took too long to address the issue. We finally started playing great possession football and opening teams up when we played 4-3-3/4-5-1. But again, Wenger still cocked things up on squad selection. Playing guys like Nasri, Rosicky or Hleb on the flanks was one issue, but it's extreme when you see him persist with Eboue or Diaby on the flanks. Why? In fact, it took him an age to play Diaby deeper in the midfield like Vieria when he was actually fit. He kept playing him out wide or behind the striker.

Then we have Denilson....fuck knows what he was thinking with that one.

He needs to get his squad selection right and recognise when a certain combination of players won't work. We've always been a team that's held more possession than the opposition. He's from the school of Total Football and his philosophy hasn't changed. I think he's out of ideas and now it's just luck of the draw for us. When he won accolades years ago in this league, it was weaker and we had players light years ahead of the opposition. It's all changed now and he's really struggling.

[Ernesto]

I also think that this team knows it has more or les reached its target (top 4) and can afford to take things easily now. These players and manager only get going when their beloved trophy is in danger of slipping away. When Villa were good in 08/09, Wenger went out and bought Arshavin and gave a really good go to make sure we finished top 4. Last season, when we lost to Spuds and looked likely to miss out, the team suddently found their mojo and got there in the end.

I just think that they only get going if/when CL footy is in danger.

This is what I'm hoping. The examples of Villa in 08/09 and Spurs last season are very apt, because they were very good sides (didn't Villa record the record number of EPL away wins in a row in 08/09?) We did well to overhaul them.

In a roundabout way, with the right results, we could find that we are STILL in the title race once Wenger finds that CL football might be jeopardised and asks his players to put extra effort in for the next few big games.

Hope being the operative word :(

[milla]

That makes me sad. People have lost faith quickly and it's all so predictable. We should have bought in January but I also have no idea why we didn't turn up today. Wenger gave the players a two day rest!

People have lost faith for quite few years but they still coming back because they love the club. They have every right to have a go at Wenger and club's top hierarchy. :coffee:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

People have lost faith for quite few years but they still coming back because they love the club. They have every right to have a go at Wenger and club's top hierarchy. :coffee:

Da

[I am invisible]

Reading that we should've taken Liverpool to court over Suarez, he did have a £40m clause, the cunts played it out perfectly :lol:

John Henry has admitted that Suarez did have a £40m buyout clause but refused to sell him, gambling on Arsenal not taking them to court [AR]

Ffs, should've pressed harder :doh: , offered £50m and we'd have signed him.
I guess we can look forward to a week of apologies from all the ex Liverpool cronies then, who were slating us for the insulting / disrespectful / risible / disgraceful / classless / etc way we conducted our business last summer, with our offer of £40m and 1p? Which, as it turns out, was all we were obliged to offer...

[Niall_Quinn]

I guess we can look forward to a week of apologies from all the ex Liverpool cronies then, who were slating us for the insulting / disrespectful / risible / disgraceful / classless / etc way we conducted our business last summer, with our offer of £40m and 1p? Which, as it turns out, was all we were obliged to offer...

Very much doubt it, although as it turns out Henry has the least integrity of anyone concerned. Maybe that's why he shouted loudest.

[I am invisible]

Very much doubt it, although as it turns out Henry has the least integrity of anyone concerned. Maybe that's why he shouted loudest.

A part of me actually thinks good on him? I mean, players and agents are quick enough to ignore what's in these contracts when it suits them, so you have to say turn around is fair play. It's the way we were ridiculed and mocked by all and sundry that's irked me. Were things like the 'What are they smoking at the Emirates?' comment really necessary? Was all the faux-indignation really necessary? Was it necessary to make every slight detail of what was going on public and to make such a big bloody deal about it? And yet we're the ones who came out of it apparently lacking class and respect, even though we pretty much just kept our mouths shut throughout the whole debacle.

We've also had to endure a season's worth of question marks about our lack of ambition, our competence in the transfer market, and even accusations of professional negligence on the part of the manager for not signing a striker, when, as it happens, we'd actually done everything that was necessary to sign one of Europe's best? I'd say 90% of the anger and in-fighting i've seen amongst our fans this season has stemmed from this one issue. Why didn't we sign a striker in the summer? (Well, actually we did everything necessary to sign probably the best option we could have got.) Why didn't we sign one in January? (This issue should have been irrelevant.) Giroud isn't good enough to start for a club like ours, our back-up options aren't good enough either, and we have no one who can score against our main rivals. (Suarez would have been plenty good enough to start, and Giroud would have been fine as back-up.) We're running some players into the ground because we don't have anyone else to play in those positions. (An extra body would have gone some way to helping that, especially one who can play right across the front line.) Özil is going to waste without having a world class striker to aim for. (Problem solved.) We don't have enough pace in the attack and lack variety in our shape and tactics. (Again, we'd be well on the way to addressing those problems too.) Even shock results like Saturday's would be easier to absorb, if we'd been scoring for fun all season long, and had more points on the board?! Sure, there'd still be some justifiable ranting and raving, but it might have meant the difference between just venting your spleen and moving on, and demanding that the manager, the board, the owner and half the team are burned at the stake?

Anyway... rant over. I don't like getting this riled by football, and I don't particularly like directing any of this at Liverpool, who I don't actually mind, when there are far bigger a-holes in the game. I just wish Henry's little bluff hadn't come at our expense, because it really has caused a lot of grief for us...

[selassie]

A part of me actually thinks good on him? I mean, players and agents are quick enough to ignore what's in these contracts when it suits them, so you have to say turn around is fair play. It's the way we were ridiculed and mocked by all and sundry that's irked me. Were things like the 'What are they smoking at the Emirates?' comment really necessary? Was all the faux-indignation really necessary? Was it necessary to make every slight detail of what was going on public and to make such a big bloody deal about it? And yet we're the ones who came out of it apparently lacking class and respect, even though we pretty much just kept our mouths shut throughout the whole debacle.

We've also had to endure a season's worth of question marks about our lack of ambition, our competence in the transfer market, and even accusations of professional negligence on the part of the manager for not signing a striker, when, as it happens, we'd actually done everything that was necessary to sign one of Europe's best? I'd say 90% of the anger and in-fighting i've seen amongst our fans this season has stemmed from this one issue. Why didn't we sign a striker in the summer? (Well, actually we did everything necessary to sign probably the best option we could have got.) Why didn't we sign one in January? (This issue should have been irrelevant.) Giroud isn't good enough to start for a club like ours, our back-up options aren't good enough either, and we have no one who can score against our main rivals. (Suarez would have been plenty good enough to start, and Giroud would have been fine as back-up.) We're running some players into the ground because we don't have anyone else to play in those positions. (An extra body would have gone some way to helping that, especially one who can play right across the front line.) Özil is going to waste without having a world class striker to aim for. (Problem solved.) We don't have enough pace in the attack and lack variety in our shape and tactics. (Again, we'd be well on the way to addressing those problems too.) Even shock results like Saturday's would be easier to absorb, if we'd been scoring for fun all season long, and had more points on the board?! Sure, there'd still be some justifiable ranting and raving, but it might have meant the difference between just venting your spleen and moving on, and demanding that the manager, the board, the owner and half the team are burned at the stake?

Anyway... rant over. I don't like getting this riled by football, and I don't particularly like directing any of this at Liverpool, who I don't actually mind, when there are far bigger a-holes in the game. I just wish Henry's little bluff hadn't come at our expense, because it really has caused a lot of grief for us...

Admittedly now that the whole "Suarez" saga has come out we were just unfortunate/unlucky regarding it. Liverpool's screaming and posturing was obviously their way of deflecting attention away from themselves and putting it onto us and unfortunately it worked. Ultimately, we fell short because Suarez didn't try and force through the move, he choose to stay at Liverpool. It was pretty impressive of Liverpool to keep their star player, how comes they can convince their star player to stay without the offer of any European football yet we struggle to keep ours even though we regularly qualify for CL?

Despite all the above regarding the Suarez saga, it should not be an excuse not to strengthen the attack, if Suarez wasn't available then we should have sought other options. We had all of the Summer to buy an upgrade on Giroud, regardless of that Suarez situation, we really should have had some kind of contingency/back up plan to buy someone else.

Our inability to strengthen problem areas has become a major problem for me and highlights our lack of planning in regards to player recruitment. It has happended once too many times to be called an accident and I personally think a club of our stature needs to operate a lot more efficiently in the market.

I accept that purchasing a world class striker in the January Market was nigh on impossible, yet we go looking for "crocked" central midfielders? Why? What on earth is that all about? It wasn't even a position we needed strengthening in?

[I am invisible]

Admittedly now that the whole "Suarez" saga has come out we were just unfortunate/unlucky regarding it. Liverpool's screaming and posturing was obviously their way of deflecting attention away from themselves and putting it onto us and unfortunately it worked. Ultimately, we fell short because Suarez didn't try and force through the move, he choose to stay at Liverpool. It was pretty impressive of Liverpool to keep their star player, how comes they can convince their star player to stay without the offer of any European football yet we struggle to keep ours even though we regularly qualify for CL?

Despite all the above regarding the Suarez saga, it should not be an excuse not to strengthen the attack, if Suarez wasn't available then we should have sought other options. We had all of the Summer to buy an upgrade on Giroud, regardless of that Suarez situation, we really should have had some kind of contingency/back up plan to buy someone else.

Our inability to strengthen problem areas has become a major problem for me and highlights our lack of planning in regards to player recruitment. It has happended once too many times to be called an accident and I personally think a club of our stature needs to operate a lot more efficiently in the market.

I accept that purchasing a world class striker in the January Market was nigh on impossible, yet we go looking for "crocked" central midfielders? Why? What on earth is that all about? It wasn't even a position we needed strengthening in?
Ah mate, don't get me started on Kallstrom! That was just bizarre, and I suspect it'll be another one like Park where we never really know why the hell he was signed?

As far as excuses go for the lack of a striker signing though, I think the ones we're looking at here are actually perfectly valid? If we're accepting that it's nigh on impossible to get someone decent in in January, then that pretty much leaves us looking at what happened in the summer, and, from what I'm now reading, it sounds like we generally did the thing, but just got screwed over by third parties not doing their jobs properly (by which I mean Suarez's incompetent agent and legal team)? They way a lot of people now like to tell it is that we abandoned a sure thing in Higuain for a total gamble in Suarez, but the truth is it was actually the other way round: the Higuain negotiations were dragging on and on and on, Real kept moving the goal posts over price, there was more competition from other clubs, and the player himself wasn't even 100% convinced about joining us - IMO, we abandoned that for a surer thing in Suarez, who had a set release clause that we were willing to pay, where there was no other competition from other clubs, and where the player was willing to join. Add to that he was (and is) a better, more versatile player and PL ready, and I'm not sure what other choice people would have made n the club's place? I'd certainly have done the same thing (bearing in mind, that, at the time, we didn't know what we know now). Unfortunately, these two deals conspired to waste virtually our whole summer (and, IMO, the Higuain talks wasted as much of our time as Suarez), and left us almost no time to sort anything else out of an acceptable standard - granted, there's an argument to be made that maybe we should have signed any old striker as a stop-gap, but we tried that with Ba (OK, maybe that was a bad choice on our part). And, as one of the blogs put it, we kind of already have 'any old striker' in Bendtner and Sanogo - I really don't think that kind of signing would have helped much.

What there will be no excuse for is not having a new target / list of targets already lined up for this summer, for not doing our background research properly, and for not getting down to business the very second the window opens. That may be tough in a WC year, but we should be laying the ground work now, sounding out agents, players and clubs. And I agree that we need to become A LOT more efficient at how we operate in the market - this big-spending malarky may be relatively new to us, but we need to get to grips with it fast! Like, in-the-next-3-months fast...

[Dein-machine]

I'm not sure why anyone is so surprised by Sat - we see the same every year & we will do for every year Wumger is manager. On the field his only claim to fame in the last 9 years is our continued C.L. qualification. I'm afraid we need to miss out this year for the board to even think about getting rid of him or him doing the decent thing & walking. What's the use of qualifying, whatever money we make from it won't be spent on adding quality & the lack of quality will mean a last 16 exit anyway. Tactically he has lost the plot & is out of his league against top managers nowadays. The Sonogo chance at the end of the game sums up Arsenal. If you don't buy quality, you don't get quality. That miss & some of Girouds this year could mean millions of pounds of lost revenue - do we build this into the equation when Wumger won't spend the extra to get the likes of a Suarez.

[Letters]

Has anyone expressed surprise?

[Dein-machine]

Has anyone expressed surprise?

Not so much surprise as anger - everyone but you & a couple of other deluded soles still hanging in there for Wumger to get it right.

[Power n Glory]

True. My hopes for the title fell off in January. That transfer window was a total cock-up. We've seen it all before and said it all before. I'm just watching to see what unfolds. I'm not going to get myself worked up over this.

[Letters]

Not so much surprise as anger - everyone but you & a couple of other deluded soles still hanging in there for Wumger to get it right.
Define 'get it right'? Winning the title? Was that ever a realistic expectation this year?
I fear a textbook Arsenal Collapse but so far I'm fairly content with how things are going this year. Saturday was a bad result but those happen to every team in every season.
We do have a horrible run coming up and I fear for us but I seriously doubt anyone would be calling for Wenger's head had we won on Saturday and were one point off the top. We didn't, fine, but one result going either way shouldn't be the difference.

Let's see where we are in May. Another collapse and I'll join you with the pitchforks.

[Power n Glory]

In the second half we had much more possession and we needed to be patient. In this kind of game you need to avoid any mistakes and then wait for a good chance yourself, but we couldn't do that.

Just seen this in the 'Official Manger Email' that gets sent around.
Does this explain why there is a lack of urgency in our play sometimes? I don’t like the idea of staying patient, waiting for an opportunity and being so risk averse. It may also explain why he’s so slow to change things. I’ve seen him say this several times and I think this is where we’re going wrong. The slow paced back and forth passing won’t work if we’re not forcing the opposition to commit to a risky challenge and we’re always looking for the safe pass or clear and clean shot. His faith in a chances presenting themselves seems so flawed against this sort of opposition.

[Marc Overmars]

Just seen this in the 'Official Manger Email' that gets sent around.
Does this explain why there is a lack of urgency in our play sometimes? I don’t like the idea of staying patient, waiting for an opportunity and being so risk averse. It may also explain why he’s so slow to change things. I’ve seen him say this several times and I think this is where we’re going wrong. The slow paced back and forth passing won’t work if we’re not forcing the opposition to commit to a risky challenge and we’re always looking for the safe pass or clear and clean shot. His faith in a chances presenting themselves seems so flawed against this sort of opposition.

This is the problem. We play the same way no matter who the opposition are and what the occasion is.

Sometimes we force the issue (see first 20 mins vs Bayern) but it doesn't happen nowhere near enough.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Not sure.

I think the problem is that sometimes we play like absolute turd.

If we could stop playing like absolute turd, think we would do much better. :good:

[Power n Glory]

Not sure.

I think the problem is that sometimes we play like absolute turd.

If we could stop playing like absolute turd, think we would do much better. :good:

Indeed. But can Wenger see how bad we’re performing and why isn’t he doing something to change it? I can only link it to that quote. Maybe he thinks a chance will eventually come.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Yeah maybe. That may be a case of feeling that he's picked his best side for the start of the fixture and that it requires time on the pitch for the magic to happen. Tactical changes, even ones that don't involve a change in personnel, tend not to happen during the first 60-70 minutes of a match.

As for the team's on-pitch patience, I'm not sure this is the issue. We have played well with patience and badly with patience. The problems happen when we don't show up at all. Something somewhere in there is not working quite right, but Mental? Physical? Technical? Tactical?

Buggered if I know.

[Power n Glory]

Yeah maybe. That may be a case of feeling that he's picked his best side for the start of the fixture and that it requires time on the pitch for the magic to happen. Tactical changes, even ones that don't involve a change in personnel, tend not to happen during the first 60-70 minutes of a match.

As for the team's on-pitch patience, I'm not sure this is the issue. We have played well with patience and badly with patience. The problems happen when we don't show up at all. Something somewhere in there is not working quite right, but Mental? Physical? Technical? Tactical?

Buggered if I know.

I think the message he conveys to the players is problematic. Shouldn't we be looking for more urgency when we look that flat? Shouldn't he be telling his players that? He advised them to stay patient and chance will come. That's probably the wrong message.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I think that if you go into a game with the menatlity of slowly slowly catchy monkey....it is hard to completely shift thinking in the course of a game whilst it is in progress. The opposite is also true where if you start a game gung-ho it can be difficult to suddenly switch to patience or the waiting game unless of course the team just incidentally gets tired out. The tactical shift is difficult mid game, not least because Wenger isn't a stand on the touchline shouty manager...... Well he screams at the 4th official but that isn't to change our tactical approach!

That is why there are a handful of managers of better clubs who make changes early and sometimes 2 subs at a time because of how difficult it is for a team to collectively change tack without any actual physical change happening. The subs coming on will be of a certain nature geared towards changing the tactical mindset and they will bellow out instructions to their team mates to ensure the tactical shift infiltrates the rest of the team. Wenger's first and most prominent instructions usually come at half time which is telling in itself.

Because Wenger favours energy and fitness levels over tactics in regards to his subs, his subs never impact games in quite the same way. When they do it is often simply because the fresh legs approach and/or the superior fitness levels of the team gets the better of the tiring opponents. The individual's he has at his disposal can also have a direct impact because of their specific skill set but it is quite hard the way we are set up as a team and organised for us to switch out tactics mid game for these reasons.

[Munchies]

Charlie Adam banned for 3 games... Stoke appeal :lol:

[JonasTC]

worst part is, there were 2 incidents before that, that should have seen him get 2 yellows :-/ 3 of our 5 losses have come from bad refs now (and our draw vs Chelsea). If we have had proper refs in all our games, we would've been 1st now and city would be fighting for 4th spot... But i guess its still all Wengers fault :d

[Marc Overmars]

dem wefs

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Are you seriously blaming the refs for us not being top right now or are you as I suspect, just kidding about?

[LDG]

We can blame Mike Dean though.

He's a fucking cunt.

[IBK]

Admittedly now that the whole "Suarez" saga has come out we were just unfortunate/unlucky regarding it. Liverpool's screaming and posturing was obviously their way of deflecting attention away from themselves and putting it onto us and unfortunately it worked. Ultimately, we fell short because Suarez didn't try and force through the move, he choose to stay at Liverpool. It was pretty impressive of Liverpool to keep their star player, how comes they can convince their star player to stay without the offer of any European football yet we struggle to keep ours even though we regularly qualify for CL?

Despite all the above regarding the Suarez saga, it should not be an excuse not to strengthen the attack, if Suarez wasn't available then we should have sought other options. We had all of the Summer to buy an upgrade on Giroud, regardless of that Suarez situation, we really should have had some kind of contingency/back up plan to buy someone else.

Our inability to strengthen problem areas has become a major problem for me and highlights our lack of planning in regards to player recruitment. It has happended once too many times to be called an accident and I personally think a club of our stature needs to operate a lot more efficiently in the market.

I accept that purchasing a world class striker in the January Market was nigh on impossible, yet we go looking for "crocked" central midfielders? Why? What on earth is that all about? It wasn't even a position we needed strengthening in?

I agree with all this. Our twin concerns should be (1) Why Liverpool as they were in the Summer were sufficiently attractive a proposition for Suarez for him to stay with them over us, and (2) Why, having already fucked up over Higuain, we had no other proper targets.

Turns out the Suarez saga unfairly made us look like a laughing stock. However we made ourselves into a laughing casserole with Kallstrom.

[Fist of Lehmann]

I think the message he conveys to the players is problematic. Shouldn't we be looking for more urgency when we look that flat? Shouldn't he be telling his players that? He advised them to stay patient and chance will come. That's probably the wrong message.

Well we lost, so it's hard to argue otherwise.

7amkickoff wrote an excellent post in the aftermath of the Liverpool game:

http://www.7amkickoff.com/2014/give-up-on-life-pants/

Of particular relevance:


It’s also incredible that this Arsenal team, who built their top of the table form by hitting the opposition quickly, jumping out to an early lead, and then parking le autobus, has now reverted to a team which boils slowly and has to play catch up. It’s not a perception, either, it’s real: Arsenal used to score early but have only scored in the first half of games twice in the last 11.

[JonasTC]

Are you seriously blaming the refs for us not being top right now or are you as I suspect, just kidding about?

Im just stating facts, if the very controversiel ref decisions that have been made against us in a couple of games and the one for example city have been getting for them in a couple of games, had been done properly, thats how it would be after you withdraw and add the few points.

[Niall_Quinn]

I agree with all this. Our twin concerns should be (1) Why Liverpool as they were in the Summer were sufficiently attractive a proposition for Suarez for him to stay with them over us, and (2) Why, having already fucked up over Higuain, we had no other proper targets.

Turns out the Suarez saga unfairly made us look like a laughing stock. However we made ourselves into a laughing casserole with Kallstrom.

1) Turns out that Suarez staying at Liverpool is similar to a prisoner with 10 years left on his stretch "deciding" to stay. If they won't let you out and you want to keep working then you have to stay. I don't really have a problem with Henry fucking a player over, about time. Should happen a lot more, like once a week. Put the little loves in their place. Hate his cowardice when he painted up the other parties concerned in a colour that applied solely to him though.

2) Higuain and Suarez were ambitious targets, nice to see. But both of these player's clubs did a lot of fucking around. Maybe we could handle a third and a fourth fuckabout.

[Niall_Quinn]

Are you seriously blaming the refs for us not being top right now or are you as I suspect, just kidding about?

Not sure about us being top, but if the refs had applied the rules in many games where they failed to we'd be well clear of city now. These decisions don't even come close to evening out over a season, in fact the net results diverge as time goes on. Certain players in this league are allowed to kick their opponents off the pitch with impunity. They are a protected species. Somebody somewhere must decide who's on the list and send the word down because it's so consistent and so organised. Vieria would have had half the cards he got with us if he'd played for Utd. This shit's been going on for a long time.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Im just stating facts, if the very controversiel ref decisions that have been made against us in a couple of games and the one for example city have been getting for them in a couple of games, had been done properly, thats how it would be after you withdraw and add the few points.

Do you not think anything has ever gone against City?

We aren't top because we haven't been good enough to be. A few weeks ago when we were top, we were there because we had been good enough to be.

We should accept those facts and move on.

[IBK]

1) Turns out that Suarez staying at Liverpool is similar to a prisoner with 10 years left on his stretch "deciding" to stay. If they won't let you out and you want to keep working then you have to stay. I don't really have a problem with Henry fucking a player over, about time. Should happen a lot more, like once a week. Put the little loves in their place. Hate his cowardice when he painted up the other parties concerned in a colour that applied solely to him though.

2) Higuain and Suarez were ambitious targets, nice to see. But both of these player's clubs did a lot of fucking around. Maybe we could handle a third and a fourth fuckabout.

Henry is a cunt for the comments he made about us - but he managed what AFC failed to do for year after year and wouldn't we have loved to see some of the same in those years from our club?

Agreed re the ambition of our targets - but its the failure to have any proper alternative plans that is the concern.

[JonasTC]

Do you not think anything has ever gone against City?

We aren't top because we haven't been good enough to be. A few weeks ago when we were top, we were there because we had been good enough to be.

We should accept those facts and move on.

City have way more decisions for them, than against them this season, you cant deny that (and im not saying its corrupt refs, just super incompetent)

Wenger has done enough in his control to see us in 1st place, but a 3rd party he cant control, has slowly taken that away ever since the beginning of this season. So i cant follow the whole "Wenger out" train, because if it hadnt been for dodgy decisions, we would have been 1st.


If not for dodgy decisions: Arsenal 1st place, everyone loves Wenger.

A couple of dodgy decisions: Arsenal 4th place, everyone hates Wenger.

It just doesnt make sense to me :)

[JonasTC]

Henry is a cunt for the comments he made about us - but he managed what AFC failed to do for year after year and wouldn't we have loved to see some of the same in those years from our club?

Agreed re the ambition of our targets - but its the failure to have any proper alternative plans that is the concern.

Tbh i wouldnt want to support a club being lead by cunts like that, the way the entire club, top to bottom, were trying to make us look bad, well knowing that we were right all along, is just a super cunt move and i seriously wouldnt be able to support something like that.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

I would.

[LDG]

Tbh i wouldnt want to support a club being lead by cunts like that, the way the entire club, top to bottom, were trying to make us look bad, well knowing that we were right all along, is just a super cunt move and i seriously wouldnt be able to support something like that.

Only if we'd done it, as it would be lack of class / Wenger being a dick etc etc

As it's Liverpool. It's ok. :good:

[saintnickle]

City have way more decisions for them, than against them this season, you cant deny that (and im not saying its corrupt refs, just super incompetent)

Wenger has done enough in his control to see us in 1st place, but a 3rd party he cant control, has slowly taken that away ever since the beginning of this season. So i cant follow the whole "Wenger out" train, because if it hadnt been for dodgy decisions, we would have been 1st.


If not for dodgy decisions: Arsenal 1st place, everyone loves Wenger.

A couple of dodgy decisions: Arsenal 4th place, everyone hates Wenger.

It just doesnt make sense to me :)

Even you jonas cant believe the spin put on this"A couple of dodgy decisions: Arsenal 4th place, everyone hates Wenger."
Do you honestly think people want wenger out because of a couple of refereeing decisions .

People want change because of
9 years without a trophy.
Failure to have any sort of structured transfer policy.
Failure to set up teams to deal with the opposition and tactics.
Failure to change the team and make substitutions as and when the need arises (and no making a sub every match on 68 mins doesnt count.)
Failure to address squad depth due to injuries.

[JonasTC]

I wonder what the next thing will be, if we actually manage to win something this year. Wenger out, because he has a stupid jacket on!!1 :d

[Globalgunner]

I wonder what the next thing will be, if we actually manage to win something this year. Wenger out, because he has a stupid jacket on!!1 :d

Dont worry, We will probably win the shiny 4th place trophy again....just. And you and your dear leader can go out and have a right old knees up. Paradise retained!!!!!!

[Xhaka Can’t]

Three match ban for Adam is confirmed.

[JonasTC]

Dont worry, We will probably win the shiny 4th place trophy again....just. And you and your dear leader can go out and have a right old knees up. Paradise retained!!!!!!

Sorry, i will never support Arsenal again :( Wenger out! :fury:

[Letters]

Even you jonas cant believe the spin put on this"A couple of dodgy decisions: Arsenal 4th place, everyone hates Wenger."
Do you honestly think people want wenger out because of a couple of refereeing decisions .

People want change because of
9 years without a trophy.
Failure to have any sort of structured transfer policy.
Failure to set up teams to deal with the opposition and tactics.
Failure to change the team and make substitutions as and when the need arises (and no making a sub every match on 68 mins doesnt count.)
Failure to address squad depth due to injuries.
There are some fairly logical reasons for thinking Wenger's taken us as far as he can and we should look elsewhere.
What annoys me is the hysteria.

Had we won on Saturday we'd be a point off the top of the table. I seriously doubt anyone would have been calling for Wenger's head then.
Fine, we lost, but that result shouldn't be the difference between Wenger :bow: and Wenger :fury:
I appreciate that one result is against a backdrop of 9 years of ups and downs and no trophies but at the start of the season, especially after the Villa game, the issue was could we stay in the top 4. No-one seriously expected a title challenge this year, that shouldn't be the criteria for success this year. IMO we've done very well to stay up there as long as we have. I am concerned about a massive collapse and if that happens then the progress we seemed to be making will disappear. Right now though we're 12 points ahead of where we were last year and we're in the FA Cup quarter final with a winnable home tie.
Concerns about the 'big games', squad depth and the ability to last a season remain and we can only really assess where we are in May.
Right now though no-one would sack their manager based on how we've done this year so far.

[fakeyank]

Fine, we lost, but that result shouldn't be the difference between Wenger :bow: and Wenger :fury:


The :fury: is because of 8 years of past failures doing the same thing and failing at the same. The :fury: is because pretty much everyone knew that this was coming. If this happened only during this season, nobody would be :fury:
Let's keep facts into perspective that this has happened time and again. Lets not pretend that supporters are angry just because we are 4 points off the leader. There is more to it... in fact almost a decade worth of similar failure for the pissed off fans.

[Letters]

I appreciate that one result is against a backdrop of 9 years of ups and downs and no trophies
Tbh.

And we haven't collapsed quite yet. The :fury: is a bit premature, IMO.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Three match ban for Adam is confirmed.

So effectively a red card missed by the ref.

Of course, of course.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

There are some fairly logical reasons for thinking Wenger's taken us as far as he can and we should look elsewhere.
What annoys me is the hysteria.

Had we won on Saturday we'd be a point off the top of the table. I seriously doubt anyone would have been calling for Wenger's head then.
Fine, we lost, but that result shouldn't be the difference between Wenger :bow: and Wenger :fury:
I appreciate that one result is against a backdrop of 9 years of ups and downs and no trophies but at the start of the season, especially after the Villa game, the issue was could we stay in the top 4. No-one seriously expected a title challenge this year, that shouldn't be the criteria for success this year. IMO we've done very well to stay up there as long as we have. I am concerned about a massive collapse and if that happens then the progress we seemed to be making will disappear. Right now though we're 12 points ahead of where we were last year and we're in the FA Cup quarter final with a winnable home tie.
Concerns about the 'big games', squad depth and the ability to last a season remain and we can only really assess where we are in May.
Right now though no-one would sack their manager based on how we've done this year so far.

You have the answer right there in front of you, Letters. It all stems from the frustration of always getting close, but then finding some way to fuck up when the pressure is on.

Patience has worn thin among the fanbase and, the fickle bastards we are, most won't hesitate to call for Wenger's head the minute we seemingly start faltering.

I think it is further compounded by the fact that we bottled it against relegation fodder. Even more frustrating considering that we knew we needed to keep pace by winning these easier set of fixtures leading up to the blitz of tougher opponents, if we wanted to be in with a shout towards the end.

We went out against the orcs and just never looked like winning. This is something which has been plaguing us for quite a while now and I think it's only fair that some fans see only one common denominator in all this.

I've wanted Wenger gone for some time now, but the respect, admiration and gratitude I developed for the man when he revolutionised our club, the BPL and club football in general, made it a bit easy for me to tentatively throw some support behind him when it looked like he was ready to challenge the big boys. But then, as the season progressed, that old feeling of deja vu slowly seeped in as the same cock ups began to recur.

I'd love for him to leave on his own terms, whenever he chooses to. Leave on a high, flaunting the league title in the face of his detractors, but sadly, I don't think he has it in him anymore. All belief has been dashed, as I think he's gotten us as far as he can.

All's not lost though, and when he walks, he will have made a great club greater, leaving them in the enviable position of being self made and standing on solid footing. Absolutely nothing for him to be ashamed of.

[Özim]

City have way more decisions for them, than against them this season, you cant deny that (and im not saying its corrupt refs, just super incompetent)

Wenger has done enough in his control to see us in 1st place, but a 3rd party he cant control, has slowly taken that away ever since the beginning of this season. So i cant follow the whole "Wenger out" train, because if it hadnt been for dodgy decisions, we would have been 1st.


If not for dodgy decisions: Arsenal 1st place, everyone loves Wenger.

A couple of dodgy decisions: Arsenal 4th place, everyone hates Wenger.

It just doesnt make sense to me :)

Mate you need to take you head out of the clouds, you blame everything but the people who should be blamed, this nonsense about refs has got to stop, yes City have had favourable decisions but so have we, the only reason you don't see them is bias.

The refs aren't the reason we aren't top, the reason we're not top is because we haven't really turned up in big games and have begun to run out of steam come crunch time, together with some of the decisions made by our manager.

I'm sure you'll find one or two like you on every forum in the country, people who point to decisions and claim their team should be higher up than they are because of the refs, it just isn't true.

[LDG]

Tbh.

And we haven't collapsed quite yet. The :fury: is a bit premature, IMO.

:fury:

[Özim]

There are some fairly logical reasons for thinking Wenger's taken us as far as he can and we should look elsewhere.
What annoys me is the hysteria.

Had we won on Saturday we'd be a point off the top of the table. I seriously doubt anyone would have been calling for Wenger's head then.
Fine, we lost, but that result shouldn't be the difference between Wenger :bow: and Wenger :fury:
I appreciate that one result is against a backdrop of 9 years of ups and downs and no trophies but at the start of the season, especially after the Villa game, the issue was could we stay in the top 4. No-one seriously expected a title challenge this year, that shouldn't be the criteria for success this year. IMO we've done very well to stay up there as long as we have. I am concerned about a massive collapse and if that happens then the progress we seemed to be making will disappear. Right now though we're 12 points ahead of where we were last year and we're in the FA Cup quarter final with a winnable home tie.
Concerns about the 'big games', squad depth and the ability to last a season remain and we can only really assess where we are in May.
Right now though no-one would sack their manager based on how we've done this year so far.

With regards the "No-one seriously expected a title challenge" line, I ask why? The reason is because in the last 8 years we haven't progressed like we should have and as Wenger had many times stated, we should be expected to challenge, we have massive resources, a stable club with a manager who has been there for years, we have everything you need to be successful, Ferguson managed it with Man U so why can't Wenger with us?

For me the reason we're never genuinely seen as winners is nothing to do with money, it's to do with the obvious flaws in our manager's methods, at Christmas we were 7 points clear with a chance to go 10 points clear in the end we were outplayed by Everton at home and then proceeded to drop more points (at City and then against Chelsea), I'm sorry but we shouldn't have been tired at that stage of the season and given our position and form should have beaten them at home, at the time people claimed it was a good result, but it clearly wasn't. Then we had our 2nd hard run in February once again we came unstuck with 2 defeats and a draw (at home) again showing when it gets tough we seem to lack the resolve to get the results.

IMO part of the problem is our generally passive approach to game, rarely to we start with any kind of tempo, we let the opposition settle and against the better sides it's suicidal as once on top you're not going to get a 2nd chance. In addition to that, when things are going wrong, where is Wenger, from my observations he sits on the sidelines and does precious little as highlighted when Liverpool slaughtered us and he refused to make any kind of change to stem the flow.

It's not about the Stoke game and not really about this season, it's about seeing the same pattern unfold time and time again and watching a team who just don't seem to have the stomach for the fight, after almost 9 years you can only conclude that it's the manager that doesn't give them that fire, that doesn't inspire them and make them believe they can beat anyone, it's compounded by the fact he no longer signs players with true inspirational qualities that drive teammates to victory.

It's not been a bad season, there's been improvement in some areas, but for me there hasn't been improvement in the areas I wanted to see thus far.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Three match ban for Adam is confirmed.


any other outcome would have been a disgrace but as people on twitter have said, this doenst help us. it helps other teams instead. Im not quite sure what can be done though, one solution could be, that two of his 3 match ban are the following matches, and the final match is the next time that player plays against the team he committed the offence against.

[Letters]

With regards the "No-one seriously expected a title challenge" line, I ask why?
Because in the last 2 years we've barely scraped 4th.

Regardless of where you think we should be as a club (and I don't disagree we should be challenging), we were where we were last summer and after two years hanging on to the top 4 by a thread it wasn't realistic to expect a title challenge this year. So far we're exceeding most people's pre-season expectations.

Wenger is maddening at times but from the criticism he gets on here you'd think he doesn't know what the hell he's doing. He's clearly still a very good manager.
We've not been leap-frogged because of a massive collapse, Chelsea have won 10 and drawn 3 of their last 13 league games. City won 11 out of 12 and drew the other before a couple of poor results recently. Pretty much any side is going to struggle to match that.

So far we've done well. A collapse is looking worryingly likely but let's see where we are in May.

[JonasTC]

Mate you need to take you head out of the clouds, you blame everything but the people who should be blamed, this nonsense about refs has got to stop, yes City have had favourable decisions but so have we, the only reason you don't see them is bias.

The refs aren't the reason we aren't top, the reason we're not top is because we haven't really turned up in big games and have begun to run out of steam come crunch time, together with some of the decisions made by our manager.

I'm sure you'll find one or two like you on every forum in the country, people who point to decisions and claim their team should be higher up than they are because of the refs, it just isn't true.

pls tell me the last time the ref straight up gave us the victory?

[Özim]

pls tell me the last time the ref straight up gave us the victory?

No ref gives any team a victory, all teams get some good decisions and some bad decisions. We've had good and bad decisions, it's just people focus on the bad ones (some of which aren't that bad at all).

We're not top basically because we've not performed against the better teams, a problem that's been hindering us for quite some time now.

[Ollie the Optimist]

No ref gives any team a victory, all teams get some good decisions and some bad decisions. We've had good and bad decisions, it's just people focus on the bad ones (some of which aren't that bad at all).

We're not top basically because we've not performed against the better teams, a problem that's been hindering us for quite some time now.

baring the liverpool game and the second penalty, i can't remember a game where we said afterwards, phew we got lucky there. I don't think refs give teams victories, but they can influence a result to a loss or draw. we have been on the end of some shocking decisions this season which have cost us not nesscarily wins, but draws.

[fakeyank]

baring the liverpool game and the second penalty, i can't remember a game where we said afterwards, phew we got lucky there. I don't think refs give teams victories, but they can influence a result to a loss or draw. we have been on the end of some shocking decisions this season which have cost us not nesscarily wins, but draws.

What are some of the 'shocking' decisions that went against us this season? Stoke penalty, stamp on Giroud and...? There might be decisions which Arsenal fans might feel hard done by, but they are not necessarily 'shocking'. Eg: Penalty for Villa against us at home, red card for chezza against bayern, suarez first pel against us in FA cup.

[Ollie the Optimist]

the offside decisions v city
the handball v city that should have been a penalty
the stonewall penalty on theo against chelsea at home
the ramies (or was it mikel) two footed lunge at arteta v chelsea that should have been a straight red
the refereeing display at the villa match in august

those are just the ones that spring to mind. not all of those decisions would have meant we would have won the game, but suddenly if you reduce chelsea to ten men and give us a penalty. 1-0 v ten men for 65ish minutes?? chances are we might have won.

not only are the decisions i have listed, wrong, they are obviously wrong. id expect a conference ref to give them they were that obvious. but you take city's offside decisions in the match against us, they win so thats 3 points, two games later, newcastle have an equaliser ruled out for offside wrongly. that means decisions have heavily influenced 6 points that they won.

the standard of refereeing on the whole has been shocking this season, so many big decisions are just wrong and the FA don't have the balls to do anything about it. I don't think all the decisions that have gone against us have been the sole reason we have lost/drawn but they don't help. we have had more then our fair share of rough decisions this season

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

The turning point in the season came when Walcott got injured for 6 months and then Ramsey got injured a few of weeks later yet Wenger still failed to invest in the January window.

At that point we lost the title.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

City have way more decisions for them, than against them this season, you cant deny that (and im not saying its corrupt refs, just super incompetent)

Wenger has done enough in his control to see us in 1st place, but a 3rd party he cant control, has slowly taken that away ever since the beginning of this season. So i cant follow the whole "Wenger out" train, because if it hadnt been for dodgy decisions, we would have been 1st.


If not for dodgy decisions: Arsenal 1st place, everyone loves Wenger.

A couple of dodgy decisions: Arsenal 4th place, everyone hates Wenger.

It just doesnt make sense to me :)

Have you watched every City game front to back? Isn't it simply true that most of the ones that go against them won't end up costing them because of the sheer quality they have and their ability to steam roller teams? It's quite a pedantic task to highlight on a regular basis decisions against a team who often batter their opponents and thus many of those instances won't even get shown. MOTD and other such shows can only be so long and the minutiae only so deep.

I would have some sympathy for a statement which cited ref decisions as a factor in the reason we are not top now, somewhere in it......but to just plainly say we are 3rd because of ref decisions is some stretch Jonas.

That is pretty much bias in its purest form.

The Wenger in or out debate needn't be brought into the above debate either, particularly as many people wanted him out before the season even started. Not that I am one of them.....and neither am I now, but let's not make out as if the Wenger out parade has suddenly come to town or formed over night.....even if many its members rear their head on the back of a bad result.

Some of the issues are such that you may still argue they were issues even if we were top. For example, even if we were top of the league right now, I'd still stand by my argument that we need better CF options and that we should have already done much more to address that by now.

[Özim]

Because in the last 2 years we've barely scraped 4th.

Regardless of where you think we should be as a club (and I don't disagree we should be challenging), we were where we were last summer and after two years hanging on to the top 4 by a thread it wasn't realistic to expect a title challenge this year. So far we're exceeding most people's pre-season expectations.

Wenger is maddening at times but from the criticism he gets on here you'd think he doesn't know what the hell he's doing. He's clearly still a very good manager.
We've not been leap-frogged because of a massive collapse, Chelsea have won 10 and drawn 3 of their last 13 league games. City won 11 out of 12 and drew the other before a couple of poor results recently. Pretty much any side is going to struggle to match that.

So far we've done well. A collapse is looking worryingly likely but let's see where we are in May.

I can accept that and agree with it, but effectively are expectations have been lowered by some poor management decisions, my argument which you seem to agree with is that they shouldn't really have been lowered.

Noone is saying Wenger doesn't know what he's doing, people are questioning his decision making at key points of the season and his lack of a killer instinct at crunch times, again I agree those sides have shown great form, but that was always going to be the case given their managers and their squad, we built up a hefty lead by December and in the end and this inability to perform against the top sides basically led us to losing it.

We've been towards the top of the table numerous times in the last few years, ultimately though the problem that has existed has been this inability to make the most of opportunities to win when the pressure is on and trophies are on the line, it's a mental frailty that at this point doesn't look to have gone and I'd argue that this would ultimately be the most obvious sign of improvement or lack of it.

[AFC Leveller]

Im able to see things from both sides's point of view. Ozim makes some good points and so do the likes of Letters and Quinn but ultimately our shortcomings on the pitch are down to the players, bad management, bad tactics and in certain games a mental block.

[IBK]

You have the answer right there in front of you, Letters. It all stems from the frustration of always getting close, but then finding some way to fuck up when the pressure is on.

Patience has worn thin among the fanbase and, the fickle bastards we are, most won't hesitate to call for Wenger's head the minute we seemingly start faltering.

I think it is further compounded by the fact that we bottled it against relegation fodder. Even more frustrating considering that we knew we needed to keep pace by winning these easier set of fixtures leading up to the blitz of tougher opponents, if we wanted to be in with a shout towards the end.

We went out against the orcs and just never looked like winning. This is something which has been plaguing us for quite a while now and I think it's only fair that some fans see only one common denominator in all this.

I've wanted Wenger gone for some time now, but the respect, admiration and gratitude I developed for the man when he revolutionised our club, the BPL and club football in general, made it a bit easy for me to tentatively throw some support behind him when it looked like he was ready to challenge the big boys. But then, as the season progressed, that old feeling of deja vu slowly seeped in as the same cock ups began to recur.

I'd love for him to leave on his own terms, whenever he chooses to. Leave on a high, flaunting the league title in the face of his detractors, but sadly, I don't think he has it in him anymore. All belief has been dashed, as I think he's gotten us as far as he can.

All's not lost though, and when he walks, he will have made a great club greater, leaving them in the enviable position of being self made and standing on solid footing. Absolutely nothing for him to be ashamed of.

Apart from the Wenger out aspect - you make some good points here. Its the grinding repetitiveness of what happens season after season that is the issue here. From where I sit - I don't see too many Gooners knee-jerking about Wenger. Many, like you appreciate the sacrifices the club had to make throughout the stadium project, and value the massive amount that Wenger has done for our club (though I do think it's worth remembering what he has received in return over and above the money). The frustration comes from seeing how much more the manager could have achieved from the base he has built over the past few years had he made one or two small adjustments in his approach. And I agree 100% that results such as last weekend's are quite rightly - against the backdrop of what has come before - seen as indications of fundamental flaws in Wenger's teams or tactics, rather than being able to be dismissed as 'one off's.

[IBK]

There are some fairly logical reasons for thinking Wenger's taken us as far as he can and we should look elsewhere.
What annoys me is the hysteria.

Had we won on Saturday we'd be a point off the top of the table. I seriously doubt anyone would have been calling for Wenger's head then.
Fine, we lost, but that result shouldn't be the difference between Wenger :bow: and Wenger :fury:
I appreciate that one result is against a backdrop of 9 years of ups and downs and no trophies but at the start of the season, especially after the Villa game, the issue was could we stay in the top 4. No-one seriously expected a title challenge this year, that shouldn't be the criteria for success this year. IMO we've done very well to stay up there as long as we have. I am concerned about a massive collapse and if that happens then the progress we seemed to be making will disappear. Right now though we're 12 points ahead of where we were last year and we're in the FA Cup quarter final with a winnable home tie.
Concerns about the 'big games', squad depth and the ability to last a season remain and we can only really assess where we are in May.
Right now though no-one would sack their manager based on how we've done this year so far.

Personally, I think calls to sack Wenger - even in the context of all that has gone before - are wide of the mark, and he stays at the end of the season even if we end the season fourth and lose this weekend.

But I think that some 'truisms' relied on by those who defend Wenger need looking at. The first is the defeatism of bemoaning the billionaire teams - that I've dealt with on the other thread. The second is looking at expectations before the start of the season to assess the position of the team now. Before the season, we:

- Had no idea that Ozil would be signed
- Could not have guessed at Ramsey's improvement
- Would have regarded the prospect of Merts and Kossy staying fit as they have as unrealistic
- Could not have anticipated the importance of Flamini, or that he would join us on a free
- Would have laughed at the idea that Arsenal would be top of the league for a couple of months
- Could not have anticipated how bad Manure would be, or how many soft points Citeh would drop away from home

For me, its as legitimate to look at where we were in December as to look at where we were in August last year. And we could, and should have made a better fist of defending our lead than we have done. Liverpool now have a decent chance of challenging for the title given their form and momentum - their expectations prior to the season would have been lower than our's - particularly given the possibility of losing their star striker. Does that mean that they won't do everything they can to sieze their opportunity? Of course not.

We have choked this season, from a position of strength, as we have choked in so many seasons for the past decade. You say that winning the title should not be the criterion for success this year. Given the length of time Wenger has had to mould his team; our new found financial strength, the teething problems of those teams that have traditionally finished above us, the fact that we had clear water behind us in the Premiership as late as December, and our record in the second half of last season - should we have regarded winning the league as acriteria for success - hell yes!

I'm coming round rapidly to the belief that Wenger has indeed lowered fans' expectations so much that our first reaction is to look at excuses for failure rather than at reasons why we should succeed. And what's more I think that this attitude is becoming ingrained in a number of his players.

[fakeyank]

Personally, I think calls to sack Wenger - even in the context of all that has gone before - are wide of the mark, and he stays at the end of the season even if we end the season fourth and lose this weekend.

But I think that some 'truisms' relied on by those who defend Wenger need looking at. The first is the defeatism of bemoaning the billionaire teams - that I've dealt with on the other thread. The second is looking at expectations before the start of the season to assess the position of the team now. Before the season, we:

- Had no idea that Ozil would be signed
- Could not have guessed at Ramsey's improvement
- Would have regarded the prospect of Merts and Kossy staying fit as they have as unrealistic
- Could not have anticipated the importance of Flamini, or that he would join us on a free
- Would have laughed at the idea that Arsenal would be top of the league for a couple of months
- Could not have anticipated how bad Manure would be, or how many soft points Citeh would drop away from home

For me, its as legitimate to look at where we were in December as to look at where we were in August last year. And we could, and should have made a better fist of defending our lead than we have done. Liverpool now have a decent chance of challenging for the title given their form and momentum - their expectations prior to the season would have been lower than our's - particularly given the possibility of losing their star striker. Does that mean that they won't do everything they can to sieze their opportunity? Of course not.

We have choked this season, from a position of strength, as we have choked in so many seasons for the past decade. You say that winning the title should not be the criterion for success this year. Given the length of time Wenger has had to mould his team; our new found financial strength, the teething problems of those teams that have traditionally finished above us, the fact that we had clear water behind us in the Premiership as late as December, and our record in the second half of last season - should we have regarded winning the league as acriteria for success - hell yes!

I'm coming round rapidly to the belief that Wenger has indeed lowered fans' expectations so much that our first reaction is to look at excuses for failure rather than at reasons why we should succeed. And what's more I think that this attitude is becoming ingrained in a number of his players.

http://www.scribbleoneverything.com/images/uploads/WallDecals/cartoon/bam.gif