World Class Debate

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Drogba, Essien, Yaya Toure, Eto'o to name 4 that spring to mind and they are just the world class ones which is a level above top class (imo). There are further names in the top class bracket. Admitedly most that lot in the world class bracket are beyond their personal best right now, but not 10 years beyond it.

[GP]

I wouldn't say Drogba or Essien were ever world class. They were good, sure, but never top bracket players.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Really? I couldn't stand the sight of Didier, I really couldn't.....especially with his knack of scoring against us but I thought he was top notch.....

Essien I thought really had a period under the specialist in failure special one where he really dominated in midfield. Remember hearing him say he gets 14 hours sleep a night or something stupid like that (a little spurious if you ask me). Giroud could take note though...

[Munchies]

I'd say Drogba was world class too, Essien no.

[Globalgunner]

If Drogba at his peak wasn't world class. them who the heck was. After Henry, he was the man who next dominated the EPL. George Weah was also world class but came here 5 years after his peak. Pity that. he was a master blaster of a CF

[Power n Glory]

Feeds into what Nasri said about Yaya Toure not being rated as World Class because he's from Africa.

[Niall_Quinn]

Toure is not rated as world class because he's not world class. He bottles it when the fight heats up. Vieria or Keane would have eaten him as a light snack. Just because a player is massively hyped by the media doesn't make him world class. Xavi and Iniesta have not moved to the gypos, have they? There's an obvious reason for that.

[Niall_Quinn]

By world class I take it we mean a special player who stands out in terms of skill, intelligence, attitude and application. Henry was so far ahead of Drogba in terms of being a world class talent you wouldn't have a tape long enough to measure it. Drogba was effective, not world class. Right player, right team, right time. A blunderbuss that smashed his way to the result. But Bergkamp, Henry, van Basten, Ronaldo, Messi... Drogba? All sense of reason lost when you add his name to just that short list. Many, many others several levels up from him too.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Toure is not rated as world class because he's not world class. He bottles it when the fight heats up. Vieria or Keane would have eaten him as a light snack. Just because a player is massively hyped by the media doesn't make him world class. Xavi and Iniesta have not moved to the gypos, have they? There's an obvious reason for that.

:doh:

[Globalgunner]

:doh:
You know what they say about opinions......some are best kept to oneself

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Henry was better than Drogba but Henry isn't the yardstick for being world class. Drogba was as complete an athlete in football as you will find. Fast, powerful, outrageously good in the air, like Alan Shearer good (and I know most don't like Shearer) decent on the ground, if he had a decent chance you trusted he'd take it more times than not, smart runs, played off the shoulder, could drop deep and like Giroud would head the ball over the half way line away from his own goal when defending for his team.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Yaya played in that Barca team at their prime and looked limited to some. When he came here we realised that that wasn't the case at it. He is as complete a midfielder as you will find. At his best it looks like the best secondary school kid playing with the year 6 primary school kids half the time. You can't get near him.

He has a touch of the languid, lazy, deify me touch about him at times (a little like Ozil) and he does get thwarted against the better players on occasion, but I think even the better players often do. It doesn't take too much away from their quality. Suarez doesn't score as many against top half teams, but we all agree on his abilities. Well mostly.

Yaya is their top scorer this season and has been instrumental in them retaining the title (which they will do make no mistake) with 20 odd league goals. If we're being honest there is nothing he can't do really and I think he would have stood out in any era of football.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Come on now. Drogba was world class.

Unplayable during his peak years. Done it in the big games too.

Top top player.

[Bury Da Bwoy]

By world class I take it we mean a special player who stands out in terms of skill, intelligence, attitude and application. Henry was so far ahead of Drogba in terms of being a world class talent you wouldn't have a tape long enough to measure it. Drogba was effective, not world class. Right player, right team, right time. A blunderbuss that smashed his way to the result. But Bergkamp, Henry, van Basten, Ronaldo, Messi... Drogba? All sense of reason lost when you add his name to just that short list. Many, many others several levels up from him too.

Are you being serious? Lmao



Judging by this thread, nasri and yaya were 100% right when it concerns goonersweb


And yaya had to move on because he didn't fit in barca's system as well as busquets did at that time. Wenger was trying to get yaya for years, could you imagine us as we are now with yaya? We'd be killing it



And lord knows how you couldn't say drogba was world class back in his prime? He gave many defenddrs nightmares and with us killed senderos all by himself lol


Players like drogba and yaya are who we need the most

[GP]

Yep, it takes a truly world class player to get the better of Senderos.

[Globalgunner]

Yep, it takes a truly world class player to get the better of Senderos.

Thats hardly the point. The point is no one in his right mind could argue that Drogba wasn't world class. He was the top scorer in this league for like 3 seasons running. He used to do things to this Arsenal team back in the day, that frankly should be illegal.

[Niall_Quinn]

World class - a stupid and misleading term. Apparently some kid called James Wilson(?) is now world class after one game. Media whores and their stupid shit.

Top tier is probably better, the top level of players that we all know stand above the rest. Pele, Maradona, Messi, van Basten, Zidane, Henry, Bergkamp, fat Ronaldo, queer Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc, etc. We know who they are.

Toure? Drogba - Don't be clowns please, these guys aren't anywhere near that level. They are/ were very effective as the blunt trauma instruments in billionaire teams and they are good players in their own right as they could probably replicate some of that effectiveness wherever they went. But let's keep them on the level where they belong, along with Wilson and all the other media chip wrapping sensationalism. I've even heard people say Rooney is at the top level. That's how ludicrous it has become.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Drogba done it against the best defenders in the world.

World class.

[AKBapologist]

Your a fucking retard if you don't think Yaya and Drogba are world class. One of the best players in that generation for their positions and single handedly won plenty of games for their respective clubs time and time again.

Also, since when did world class suddenly need to mean best player of all time?

[Munchies]

Agree ^^ , Drogba was world class.

Done it in all the big games, and rescued the champions league for the Chavs.

[Power n Glory]

World class - a stupid and misleading term. Apparently some kid called James Wilson(?) is now world class after one game. Media whores and their stupid shit.

Top tier is probably better, the top level of players that we all know stand above the rest. Pele, Maradona, Messi, van Basten, Zidane, Henry, Bergkamp, fat Ronaldo, queer Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc, etc. We know who they are.

Toure? Drogba - Don't be clowns please, these guys aren't anywhere near that level. They are/ were very effective as the blunt trauma instruments in billionaire teams and they are good players in their own right as they could probably replicate some of that effectiveness wherever they went. But let's keep them on the level where they belong, along with Wilson and all the other media chip wrapping sensationalism. I've even heard people say Rooney is at the top level. That's how ludicrous it has become.

You're getting football legends mixed up with World Class. There is world class and then there is the upper echelon talent. It's debatable whether Henry and Bergkamp should be in that list because they've never won Ballon d'or and World Player of the Year awards when everyone else in that list has. But that's another debate.

If Yaya and Drogba aren't World Class, what's Ozil, Cesc and RVP?

[Niall_Quinn]

Your a fucking retard if you don't think Yaya and Drogba are world class. One of the best players in that generation for their positions and single handedly won plenty of games for their respective clubs time and time again.

Also, since when did world class suddenly need to mean best player of all time?

Fucking retard? Like somebody who's too thick to comprehend basic language, for example? Welcome to the club then.

That's why I chucked away the dumb term world class, which is pretty much applied to anyone who has one decent game these days, and compared these two to the genuine top talents in the game. But if you really need that tag to stick, then sure, they are world class. Same as this Wilson guy, same as Rooney, same as the 10,001 others that could be trotted out. Didn't say they had to be the best in the world, just mentioned they aren't within a mile of that genuinely elite group. Which quite obviously they aren't. But world class? Sure, why not?

[I am invisible]

You're getting football legends mixed up with World Class. There is world class and then there is the upper echelon talent. It's debatable whether Henry and Bergkamp should be in that list because they've never won Ballon d'or and World Player of the Year awards when everyone else in that list has. But that's another debate.

If Yaya and Drogba aren't World Class, what's Ozil, Cesc and RVP?

Agree with this, although to be fair I think NQ is (more or less) saying the same thing, just with different lables? Either way we're talking one class of extremely good footballers, and then another, even more exclusive / special class of talent beyond that...

Edit: a simple test for 'world-class' for me is whether a player would walk into most top sides in the world - the level above that I would reserve for players who make such an impression that you'll be talking about them for the rest of your life...

[Niall_Quinn]

You're getting football legends mixed up with World Class. There is world class and then there is the upper echelon talent. It's debatable whether Henry and Bergkamp should be in that list because they've never won Ballon d'or and World Player of the Year awards when everyone else in that list has. But that's another debate.

If Yaya and Drogba aren't World Class, what's Ozil, Cesc and RVP?

Listen to it. "Yaya" - our mate. Look at this place, half the posts glorifying our fucking mortal enemies, the other half slagging our own club. If one of our players spouted the shite Toure did he'd be crucified. The twat has a moan that racists have stopped the world from proclaiming him God's gift, but never mind "Yaya", plenty of Arsenal fans ready to leap to the defence. But that's an irritable aside because it eventually gets sickening listening to the shite that goes on here.

Henry and Bergkamp being questioned? That says it all. Obviously no need to comment on that. The other three? No, I don't place them at the top level if we are talking sensibly. Good players for sure. However, if we are using the "Yaya" and Drogba standard, yes, Cesc, RvP and Ozil are absolute world class. Better than Wilson and Bent, even better than Hart. Peter Schmeichel? Not so sure - he hasn't really been in the papers of late has he? So NOT world class.

Look, unlike that cunt apologist bloke, I know you are trying to be fairly reasonable. Fair enough. I guess I've had enough of the direct and implied slagging that goes on here related to our club. I hate the way it aligns with the media bullshit as if that is somehow normal and valid. Always the same twats jumping in with their tuppence as well. I can't for the life of me figure out why they want anything to do with the club. And they'll all say, what me? What's this about? But you know what I'm talking about.

Conclusion. Drogba, Toure - second tier. Yes okay, that's world class by today's standards so I concede that. I hope it make the "die hards" on here happy. Let's just move on to Pelegrini. Best manager ever?

[GP]

Let's just move on to Pelegrini. Best manager ever?

I though so yesterday but he wasn't in the paper today so I don't know what to think.

[Power n Glory]

Listen to it. "Yaya" - our mate. Look at this place, half the posts glorifying our fucking mortal enemies, the other half slagging our own club. If one of our players spouted the shite Toure did he'd be crucified. The twat has a moan that racists have stopped the world from proclaiming him God's gift, but never mind "Yaya", plenty of Arsenal fans ready to leap to the defence. But that's an irritable aside because it eventually gets sickening listening to the shite that goes on here.

Henry and Bergkamp being questioned? That says it all. Obviously no need to comment on that. The other three? No, I don't place them at the top level if we are talking sensibly. Good players for sure. However, if we are using the "Yaya" and Drogba standard, yes, Cesc, RvP and Ozil are absolute world class. Better than Wilson and Bent, even better than Hart. Peter Schmeichel? Not so sure - he hasn't really been in the papers of late has he? So NOT world class.

Look, unlike that cunt apologist bloke, I know you are trying to be fairly reasonable. Fair enough. I guess I've had enough of the direct and implied slagging that goes on here related to our club. I hate the way it aligns with the media bullshit as if that is somehow normal and valid. Always the same twats jumping in with their tuppence as well. I can't for the life of me figure out why they want anything to do with the club. And they'll all say, what me? What's this about? But you know what I'm talking about.

Conclusion. Drogba, Toure - second tier. Yes okay, that's world class by today's standards so I concede that. I hope it make the "die hards" on here happy. Let's just move on to Pelegrini. Best manager ever?

This debate doesn't really have much to do with being an Arsenal supporter. You're just displaying a level of bias and ignorance that makes you look silly.

[Niall_Quinn]

This debate doesn't really have much to do with being an Arsenal supporter. You're just displaying a level of bias and ignorance that makes you look silly.

No, not on the surface. But it just adds to the pile. Started out as a thread about one of our potential signings. Ends up as a chav and gypo love-in. True enough, nothing to do with being an Arsenal supporter - like the rest of it.

[selassie]

:lol: Goonersmess.

:coffee: :lol:

[Power n Glory]

No, not on the surface. But it just adds to the pile. Started out as a thread about one of our potential signings. Ends up as a chav and gypo love-in. True enough, nothing to do with being an Arsenal supporter - like the rest of it.

No. It's stems from the comment about World Class African players but somehow you've twisted it and you're seeing something else like you always do. Would it help if I brought Kanu into the equation? The two most recent World Class African players so happen to play for our rival clubs. If we want to get technical, Vieira is from Senegal but he played for France and he's a World Class talent. Or can't I use him as an example because he's over at City. ;) Or would you even consider him World Class if we're going to talk about Zidane. Mardonna and Messi? Again, there is elite and hands down top of the pile when talking about a pool of talent and then there are those that are considered in the top 10-20 of best players amongst their peers. World Class.

Henry and Bergkamp were great World Class players but it's debatable whether they were at that Mardonna, Pele, Ronaldo (real), Ronaldinho, Zidane level when neither won Champs League, back to back titles or Balon D'or/ Fifa World Player awards when with Arsenal. That's another debate and I've had it plenty of times on here. Henry was snubbed for the awards and Bergkamp is a legend in my eyes that should be up there with the very best. It's another debate but you should see what I'm getting at when talking about World Class and that next level. RVP, Cesc, Ozil...even Drogba and Yaya aren't close to that top top status but they are definitely world class.

I get your argument about the term being used too loosely but it's not in regards to Drogba and Yaya Toure because they've both won domestic cups and titles, won the Champions League and pushed Ivory Coast up the list as a dangerous opponent at International level when nobody would bat an eyelid 20 years ago if drawn against them. I don't know what else you want, mate.

[Niall_Quinn]

No. It's stems from the comment about World Class African players but somehow you've twisted it and you're seeing something else like you always do. Would it help if I brought Kanu into the equation? The two most recent World Class African players so happen to play for our rival clubs. If we want to get technical, Vieira is from Senegal but he played for France and he's a World Class talent. Or can't I use him as an example because he's over at City. ;) Or would you even consider him World Class if we're going to talk about Zidane. Mardonna and Messi? Again, there is elite and hands down top of the pile when talking about a pool of talent and then there are those that are considered in the top 10-20 of best players amongst their peers. World Class.

Henry and Bergkamp were great World Class players but it's debatable whether they were at that Mardonna, Pele, Ronaldo (real), Ronaldinho, Zidane level when neither won Champs League, back to back titles or Balon D'or/ Fifa World Player awards when with Arsenal. That's another debate and I've had it plenty of times on here. Henry was snubbed for the awards and Bergkamp is a legend in my eyes that should be up there with the very best. It's another debate but you should see what I'm getting at when talking about World Class and that next level. RVP, Cesc, Ozil...even Drogba and Yaya aren't close to that top top status but they are definitely world class.

I get your argument about the term being used too loosely but it's not in regards to Drogba and Yaya Toure because they've both won domestic cups and titles, won the Champions League and pushed Ivory Coast up the list as a dangerous opponent at International level when nobody would bat an eyelid 20 years ago if drawn against them. I don't know what else you want, mate.

Well considering I mentioned Vieria as a comparison then I think it's safe to mention him, despite the fact he works in gypo land. Bang goes the theory.

[Power n Glory]

Well considering I mentioned Vieria as a comparison then I think it's safe to mention him, despite the fact he works in gypo land. Bang goes the theory.

Where did you mention him? It doesn't matter anyway. It all stem from the point about World Class African Players.

[Niall_Quinn]

Where did you mention him? It doesn't matter anyway. It all stem from the point about World Class African Players.

And I mentioned that too. Isn't it a little embarrassing for a lesbian turncoat and the man himself to have to blow their own trumpets? But true, the African thing opened the door for the usual suspects.

[Özim]

He's no different to the mainstream media - they talk bullshit all year and don't bat an eyelid when exposed. They quickly forgot about their wise and informed commentary on Gerrard finally winning a title. Now it's the gypos all the way - just like they told us all along. WayneGooney looks credible by comparison.

I don't see why you don't think Yaya Toure and Drogba are/were world class players, Drogba delivered whenever his team needed and terrorised defences, not as graceful as Henry no doubt, but different players have different talents and his was based on his power, but it was very very effective.

Toure has 20 goals from midfield (goalscoring midfielders are like goal dust), makes marauding runs and is the closest thing I've seen to Vieira since he retired.

[fakeyank]

Toure and Drogba are both World Class IMO.. they have won trophies all over the world and are unplayable on their good days. And they have plenty of good days.

[hobson's choice]

Toure is not rated as world class because he's not world class. He bottles it when the fight heats up. Vieria or Keane would have eaten him as a light snack. Just because a player is massively hyped by the media doesn't make him world class. Xavi and Iniesta have not moved to the gypos, have they? There's an obvious reason for that.



We all get it NQ, no one who plays for Chelsea or City can be considered great, or good people because, they get paid a lot of money, they are soulless, they are mercenaries, blah, blah, blah. Arsenal and rest of traditional big clubs are the ONLYclubs, with any sense of right and fairplay, blah, blah.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I have no respect for Man City or believe anything they win is legitimate (same with Chelsea) but for me I don't think Yaya Toure was a world class player at Barca but I think he definitely is one at City.

The reason I don't like City or Chelsea is because they are littered with world class talent but they have never had to show the discipline, hard work or make the difficult decisions in order to get it and they are poster children for fiscal irresponsibility.


Aguero, Silva, Toure all world class for me

Hazard is for Chelsea and as was Mata before they sold him to United.

Drogba? I'm not sure he was definitely up there and he's a player we just couldn't deal with but his goslscoring record and consistency isn't up there with the top strikers in Europe.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

We all get it NQ, no one who plays for Chelsea or City can be considered great, or good people because, they get paid a lot of money, they are soulless, they are mercenaries, blah, blah, blah. Arsenal and rest of traditional big clubs are the ONLYclubs, with any sense of right and fairplay, blah, blah.

:lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

We all get it NQ, no one who plays for Chelsea or City can be considered great, or good people because, they get paid a lot of money, they are soulless, they are mercenaries, blah, blah, blah. Arsenal and rest of traditional big clubs are the ONLYclubs, with any sense of right and fairplay, blah, blah.

Well summarised. The minute fans accept what is going on in chav and gypo land then you might as well pack it in. There's complacency in all walks of life and complacency never improved anything, no reason to accept it in football. If a bunch of crooks want to come in and start fucking up football then they and all their hirelings should be attacked and reviled at every opportunity. It's right and proper and if you want to see your game survive then that's what it will take, an outright rejection of everything they stand for and do. Don't be relying on the money men to change it, fans will have to do it. Or they can duck and cover and make disapproving noises at the ones standing up.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I was going to bring up P'n'G's point about players of African descent representing other nations, but I thought there were more than 3 top class African players in the last 10 years without even bringing that into the equation. My intention wasn't to spark a 'world class debate' but it is an interesting one.

Whatever the conclusion to what constitutes world class, I don't think it can be argued that most of these players are at the very minimum, top class which to my mind is somewhat understating their talent.

I don't think this is necessarily a Chelsea-City love-in NQ and I can't really for the life me understand why any gooners would have a particular bias towards them. They just garner more discussion due to their circumstances and profile......but I can't claim to know with 100% certainty the minds of every poster here.

Money has brought them a heck of a lot of good players between the two of them and unfortunately for us, some of them are very good and even respectable. I have no shame in expressing the view that I would be proud if Kompany was the captain of an Arsenal team as I think that he is an exceptional player, respectable and dignified. He refrains from needlessly slagging off other clubs and he keeps his sentiments about his own by and large. Appreciating Kompany,Yaya or any other exceptional player over there has little to do with City, they just happen to be those players' club. Kompany and Yaya have played for other clubs too other than City.

A season or two ago the pundits were going on about Chelsea and Manure and they asked Kompany for his opinion and he basically told them 'what are you talking about, Arsenal have been the best team we've played this season'.... He said what he thought and wasn't overly concerned with what he was expected to say. How many of us honestly would not be proud if Kompany played for Arsenal or wouldn't have loved it if Yaya's work permit didn't fall though several years back?

[Ernesto]

I think I'm with 'i am invisible' on the world class debate. It's essentially à player who can walk into any team at any given time, meaning that there would only truly be 11 world class players out there.

It's got its holes in it, does this argument. For example, the whole "form is temporary, class is permanent" issue comes into it. Kevin Phillips was perhaps "world class" in 2000, but does that justify him as world class forever? The same goes for Gerrard in 2006, and even Drogba. It's maybe unfair to question whether à player is still world class when they're the wrong side of 30. If they were considered world class for even one season, should that be enough to cement their legacy?

We all, as Gooners, hailed Tony Adams as being world class in his heyday. However, there's no way he could have walked into the Milan side at any point of his Arsenal career. Does that still make him world class?

Can of worms, indeed...

[Ollie the Optimist]

while drogba did do it in big games, can he really be called world class?

In 8 seasons, only twice did he score more then 20 goals in the season. In the other 6, he scored 13-16 goals in all competitions. In his final season at chelsea, he only scored 5 goals in the league.

That is hardly world class, a good player in big games but not exactly a prolific goalscorer, his stats most seasons are pretty close to girouds!

[GP]

Giroud is world class.