One Arsene Wenger...

[Letters]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2830128/Manchester-City-spent-1MILLION-players-Premier-League-point-2008-s-twice-biggest-spenders-Chelsea.html

:bow:



:run:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Only one Arsene Wenger? Has he failed to clone himself so he can manage us in perpetuity then

How many Arsene Wengers does it take to change a lightbulb?

None....the lightbulb doesn't need changing, the dirty unsafe oil lamp can be an "internal solution"

[mr_brighterside]

you pay for what you get

they've paid extra for the quality needed to win the league, we haven't

[Letters]

you pay for what you get

they've paid extra for the quality needed to win the league, we haven't

And how are you proposing we compete with City and Chelsea financially?
The new financial deals have allowed us to start signing big (Ozil and Sanchez) but even then we can't compete with a club with the infinite money cheat on.
Before those deals were in place we had no chance.

[Power n Glory]

And how are you proposing we compete with City and Chelsea financially?
The new financial deals have allowed us to start signing big (Ozil and Sanchez) but even then we can't compete with a club with the infinite money cheat on.
Before those deals were in place we had no chance.

:lol: Hilarious. Still blaming other clubs and talking about their resources when we can't even coach the basics.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

And how are you proposing we compete with City and Chelsea financially?
The new financial deals have allowed us to start signing big (Ozil and Sanchez) but even then we can't compete with a club with the infinite money cheat on.
Before those deals were in place we had no chance.

:haha:

Oh Atletico! How the hell are they ever going to win la liga!

[Power n Glory]

Exactly!

[mr_brighterside]

And how are you proposing we compete with City and Chelsea financially?
The new financial deals have allowed us to start signing big (Ozil and Sanchez) but even then we can't compete with a club with the infinite money cheat on.
Before those deals were in place we had no chance.

I don't have the figures but I think our spending over the last 10 years (prior to Ozil) has been a lot lower than it was when we were winning titles

also buying 11 attacking central midfielders and neglecting the defensive side as well as keeping players on the books for too long are both signs he is far from the financial genius he is portrayed as

[LDG]

We've had good enough players to win the league.

In fact, the one good thing Wenger has done, is buy players who are little bit special. He has bought duds, but every manager does.

The stupid berk is just too blinded, and too stubborn to address areas of weakness, as he doesn't like being proved wrong. And he expects his players to find on the pitch solutions themselves...he doesn't do tactics.

Good players, managed well make a successful team. Brilliant players managed badly, crumble.

[Letters]

:lol: Hilarious. Still blaming other clubs and talking about their resources when we can't even coach the basics.

Well, no. Clearly we should be doing better with the resources we have.
But we can't compete with City and Chelsea in the transfer market, clearly.
Those two facts aren't inconsistent.

[Letters]

:haha:

Oh Atletico! How the hell are they ever going to win la liga!
Do you think anyone bar Chelsea or City can win the title this year?

:)

EDIT: Since we last won the title only 3 teams have done it. Utd, City and Chelsea. All 3 have bigger resources than us and one was managed by, let's face it, the GOAT. I still have no idea how they won the title last time they did, they were awful but Fergie dragged them to the title by sheer will.
We should certainly be doing better but cherry-picking a rare counter-example does not alter the fact that, in general, the teams with the biggest resources tend to be the ones winning titles.

[Globalgunner]

Do you think anyone bar Chelsea or City can win the title this year?

:)

That has less to do with money and more to do with the fact we have an incompetent manager. If Wenger and Simeone had changed positions in the last 3 seasons. 2 things are certain. Madrid would not have won la Liga or reached CL final, Arsenal would have been closer in challenging for the big prizes.

[Dein-machine]

That has less to do with money and more to do with the fact we have an incompetent manager. If Wenger and Simeone had changed positions in the last 3 seasons. 2 things are certain. Madrid would not have won la Liga or reached CL final, Arsenal would have been closer in challenging for the big prizes.

:gp:

[Letters]

That has less to do with money and more to do with the fact we have an incompetent manager. If Wenger and Simeone had changed positions in the last 3 seasons. 2 things are certain. Madrid would not have won la Liga or reached CL final, Arsenal would have been closer in challenging for the big prizes.
I'd say it's a bit of both.
There seems to be something going very wrong behind the scenes at Arsenal, clearly we are far less than the sum of our parts right now and that's down to Wenger. But you cannot sensibly deny that the resources City and Chelsea have are highly correlated to their success.
I don't consider it a failure to finish below them, but if we're not even challenging them then that isn't good enough as with our resources we should be much closer than we are.

[Dein-machine]

[QUOTE=Letters;431850]Do you think anyone bar Chelsea or City can win the title this year?

But then that would suggest the same last year - Liverpool were a Gerrard slip away from winning it last year with a very similar team to the one they had had the year before, no major money spent only decent signings that we could have made.

[Letters]

But then that would suggest the same last year - Liverpool were a Gerrard slip away from winning it last year with a very similar team to the one they had had the year before, no major money spent only decent signings that we could have made.
And how are they doing this year?

People were creaming themselves over Rodgers last year and others of us were gently suggesting that as well as Liverpool were doing they were helped by having one absolutely world class player - Suarez's scoring rate last year was insane - and the fact that they had no European football and poor cup runs. They played 43 games last year, we played 56. They lost Suarez in the summer and have CL football to contend with and they've been all over the shop. One good season does not a summer make.

[Dein-machine]

And how are they doing this year?

People were creaming themselves over Rodgers last year and others of us were gently suggesting that as well as Liverpool were doing they were helped by having one absolutely world class player - Suarez's scoring rate last year was insane - and the fact that they had no European football and poor cup runs. They played 43 games last year, we played 56. They lost Suarez in the summer and have CL football to contend with and they've been all over the shop. One good season does not a summer make.

How they are doing this year is not the discussion.
You are suggesting that because of money only City & Chelsea can win the league. Others on here whilst certainly having to agree that money is the major factor, would also suggest that you need a manager who spends that money on areas that improve not just the starting line up but the squad to be successful. Mourinho continually identifies his needs an acts accordingly, not with potentially good players but with top quality players. Yes, the money allows him to do this but we are not talking about him Messi type money here. Wenger unfortunately continues to do the opposite.
Liverpool's success last year proved that a well drilled side put together at reasonable cost with a passionate captain, a versatile game plan dependent on opposition & ofcourse a world class striker can challenge Chelsea & City, they finished above Chelsea.
After all the years of Wenger we DONT have a well drilled side, We DONT have a passionate captain, We DONT have a game plan dependant on opposition & the only world class player we have is currently the difference from us being near the bottom of the table & will undoubtedly be overplayed until injured.

[Letters]

You are suggesting that because of money only City & Chelsea can win the league.
It's the biggest factor. Of course you need a top manager but you wouldn't get one of those without paying them the big bucks so one way or another it all comes back to the money.
Chelsea and City would not be where they are but for the billionaire owners. Chelsea showed you could buy success, City have showed you can do it with any club if you pump in enough money for long enough.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think there is an argument that the odds aren't in favour of Chelsea and City, however Wenger has been content to hide behind the odds rather than fight back.
It's not the financial muscle of Chelsea and City that caused us to lose the league cup final to Birmingham, consistently finish second in Group phases of the Champions League we should be winning and to be competitive in a title race up until February and March and go through a diabolical run of form to the point where we are hanging on by our fingertips to European qualification.
The unfair advantage Chelsea and City have, and the failings of Arsenal teams managed by Wenger have always been two seperate issues. I think it was always going to be difficult to stop Chelsea running away with the league, but what they have spent isn't responsible for us winning four games from eleven and being nearer to Burnley than them in terms of point difference.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think there is an argument that the odds are in favour of Chelsea and City, however Wenger has been content to hide behind the odds rather than fight back.
It's not the financial muscle of Chelsea and City that caused us to lose the league cup final to Birmingham, consistently finish second in Group phases of the Champions League we should be winning and to be competitive in a title race up until February and March and go through a diabolical run of form to the point where we are hanging on by our fingertips to European qualification.
The unfair advantage Chelsea and City have, and the failings of Arsenal teams managed by Wenger have always been two seperate issues. I think it was always going to be difficult to stop Chelsea running away with the league, but what they have spent isn't responsible for us winning four games from eleven and being nearer to Burnley than them in terms of point difference.

:gp:

[Marc Overmars]

I don't think there is an argument that the odds are in favour of Chelsea and City, however Wenger has been content to hide behind the odds rather than fight back.
It's not the financial muscle of Chelsea and City that caused us to lose the league cup final to Birmingham, consistently finish second in Group phases of the Champions League we should be winning and to be competitive in a title race up until February and March and go through a diabolical run of form to the point where we are hanging on by our fingertips to European qualification.
The unfair advantage Chelsea and City have, and the failings of Arsenal teams managed by Wenger have always been two seperate issues. I think it was always going to be difficult to stop Chelsea running away with the league, but what they have spent isn't responsible for us winning four games from eleven and being nearer to Burnley than them in terms of point difference.

Couldn't agree more with that.

Overlooking tactical and personnel issues, no proactive in-game management, gambling with the squad etc. None of that has anything to do with Chelsea and City.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Do you think anyone bar Chelsea or City can win the title this year?

:)

EDIT: Since we last won the title only 3 teams have done it. Utd, City and Chelsea. All 3 have bigger resources than us and one was managed by, let's face it, the GOAT. I still have no idea how they won the title last time they did, they were awful but Fergie dragged them to the title by sheer will.
We should certainly be doing better but cherry-picking a rare counter-example does not alter the fact that, in general, the teams with the biggest resources tend to be the ones winning titles.

Barcelona/Real won La Liga for 10 years straight.

Until Atletico and their oil money did it.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

How they are doing this year is not the discussion.
You are suggesting that because of money only City & Chelsea can win the league. Others on here whilst certainly having to agree that money is the major factor, would also suggest that you need a manager who spends that money on areas that improve not just the starting line up but the squad to be successful. Mourinho continually identifies his needs an acts accordingly, not with potentially good players but with top quality players. Yes, the money allows him to do this but we are not talking about him Messi type money here. Wenger unfortunately continues to do the opposite.
Liverpool's success last year proved that a well drilled side put together at reasonable cost with a passionate captain, a versatile game plan dependent on opposition & ofcourse a world class striker can challenge Chelsea & City, they finished above Chelsea.
After all the years of Wenger we DONT have a well drilled side, We DONT have a passionate captain, We DONT have a game plan dependant on opposition & the only world class player we have is currently the difference from us being near the bottom of the table & will undoubtedly be overplayed until injured.

Stop speaking sense.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

I don't think there is an argument that the odds aren't in favour of Chelsea and City, however Wenger has been content to hide behind the odds rather than fight back.
It's not the financial muscle of Chelsea and City that caused us to lose the league cup final to Birmingham, consistently finish second in Group phases of the Champions League we should be winning and to be competitive in a title race up until February and March and go through a diabolical run of form to the point where we are hanging on by our fingertips to European qualification.
The unfair advantage Chelsea and City have, and the failings of Arsenal teams managed by Wenger have always been two seperate issues. I think it was always going to be difficult to stop Chelsea running away with the league, but what they have spent isn't responsible for us winning four games from eleven and being nearer to Burnley than them in terms of point difference.

Been a minute since I last agreed with you, but this is a top post right here.

[Dein-machine]

It's the biggest factor. Of course you need a top manager but you wouldn't get one of those without paying them the big bucks so one way or another it all comes back to the money.
Chelsea and City would not be where they are but for the billionaire owners. Chelsea showed you could buy success, City have showed you can do it with any club if you pump in enough money for long enough.

But aren't we paying Wenger more than what Mourinho & Pelerini get?

[Letters]

Barcelona/Real won La Liga for 10 years straight.

Until Atletico and their oil money did it.
This is the "my granddad smoked 40 a day every day for 60 years and lived till he was 90. That proves smoking isn't bad for you" school of logic.
Possible != Probable

[Letters]

But aren't we paying Wenger more than what Mourinho & Pelerini get?

Not really sure how that's relevant.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

This is the "my granddad smoked 40 a day every day for 60 years and lived till he was 90. That proves smoking isn't bad for you" school of logic.
Possible != Probable

:blink:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Not really sure how that's relevant.

Well I think the point is if we are paying AW more money than the plutocrat clubs are paying their respective managers, are we really getting value for money?

Unless of course you are saying that we need to pay him that money because no other manager could even get us top four, let alone a significant title challenge?

The point is My dear Letters is that there is unquestionably a wealth chasm between ourselves and City and Chelsea, but if you break down it season per season with the squandered chances, lessons unheeded and mistakes repeated the wealth gap has been an all too convenient excuse nothing more.

[Dein-machine]

Not really sure how that's relevant.

Because you say that you wouldn't get a top manager without paying big bucks - we are paying big bucks & competing with City & Chelsea on that score so I don't understand how your point is relevant.

[Globalgunner]

Letters doesn't like facts that contradict his entrained line of thinking. You can only beat the moneyed clubs with money....but when some club like Athletico do it or Pool almost do it. he says its a 1 off. We Arsenal, haven't had a 1 off season since 2004 when we were the 2nd highest spenders in the PL (3rd really, but Abramovich was just getting warmed up back then). fact is you can challenge and consistently if you just get smarter. Instead Wenger just sulks and starts throwing tantrums. Imagine claiming that Chelsea spent more money than us so that why they beat us 2-0. we were not even remotely in that game. Chelsea's last Cl match was against a team whose yearly budget I am sure is less than Wengers salary. we had just spent almost 80m on 2 players in that same team and he claims we were broke. Thats why we lost.

Yes there is only 1 Arsene Wenger, I bloody hope so, cos I would not wish his 2006-2014 version on any football team.

[fakeyank]

Looks like we are 4th in this table as well :lol:

Wenger, cant even win the shitty league table :pal:

Oh, while we crib about how shitty and Chelsea are winning the league with their millions. Take a look at Manchester Utd on the table..

[Xhaka Can’t]

Money counts big time - not just in purchasing players.

No money = no Mourinho or Pellegrini at their respective Clubs.

We'd probably still be looking at the last 10 years with Man Utd and Arsenal 1 and 2 - in that order with maybe a blip or two.

That said, the money we are spending on a Manager, should be spent on one far superior to Wenger.

He was the right guy at the right time when he arrived at the Club. He was the right guy to bring us through the transition period.

He is the wrong guy now. The game has passed him by and the longer he stays or the Club persist with him, the more toxic he becomes at the Club.

[fakeyank]

:gp:

[Maestro]

Money counts big time - not just in purchasing players.

No money = no Mourinho or Pellegrini at their respective Clubs.

We'd probably still be looking at the last 10 years with Man Utd and Arsenal 1 and 2 - in that order with maybe a blip or two.

That said, the money we are spending on a Manager, should be spent on one far superior to Wenger.

He was the right guy at the right time when he arrived at the Club. He was the right guy to bring us through the transition period.

He is the wrong guy now. The game has passed him by and the longer he stays or the Club persist with him, the more toxic he becomes at the Club.

True, it's a shame it will be pitch forks when he leaves. Could have left a legend, and all could have ended on happier terms.

[Letters]

True, it's a shame it will be pitch forks when he leaves. Could have left a legend, and all could have ended on happier terms.

As frustrating as things are right now I still think in time his legacy will be appreciated.
As well as all the trophies the transition to the new stadium and keeping us relatively competitive through that leaves us in great shape for his successor.

[Marc Overmars]

I think the narrative on his departure won't be a pleasant one, however once the dust has settled he will (rightly) be remembered for everything good he's done for us.

[mr_brighterside]

As frustrating as things are right now I still think in time his legacy will be appreciated.
As well as all the trophies the transition to the new stadium and keeping us relatively competitive through that leaves us in great shape for his successor.

people remember the trophies and going unbeaten but no one will remember being fourth a lot

he will ultimately go the way of brian clough, remembered for a great beginning and a not great (though hopefully not that rubbish!) end

[Özim]

IMO he's tainted his career with the way he's been in the 2nd half of his career with us, it's become hard to remember the great teams we had, they're all a distant memory now and what springs to mind is the boring tap tap football that never goes anywhere, the years of frustration in the transfer market and unwillingness to admit glaringly obvious problems in the team and of course poor tactics.

People are right, he hides behind excuses now, happy to pick up his 8 million and never really feeling like we should be challenging seriously for the big trophies.

[Letters]

His legacy has been tainted, I'd agree, but is it that hard to remember the great teams? You don't have any problem remembering the 'wonderful' 92/93 team who, frankly, were awful to watch. That season had a happy finish (which could easily have gone the other way) but 80% of it was horrible, we finished about 7 points above relegation, scored something like 40 goals in 42 games. It was boring boring Arsenal and their boring boringest.

The teams in the first half of Wenger's reign were far, far better and I feel priviledged to have had a season ticket during that period. Clough took Forest down in the end and I believe he's still regarded highly by Forest fans. All Wenger's done is taken us from first to fourth and he's vilified. He certainly deserves some stick and I think we all agree it's time for him to move on now but the legacy of the trophies, great football and steering us through the stadium move should not be forgotten or ignored.

You remember the good of 92/93 and conveniently forget how awful most of the season was, it would be weird to ignore all the good Wenger's done. 5 FA Cups, 3 titles, two of those doubles, an unbeaten season, amazing football, keeping our heads above water financially during a massively complicated stadium move. It's a shame he didn't go on a high last season but in the fulness of time I think his legacy will be appreciated. It bloody well should be.

[selassie]

Letters doesn't like facts that contradict his entrained line of thinking. You can only beat the moneyed clubs with money....but when some club like Athletico do it or Pool almost do it. he says its a 1 off. We Arsenal, haven't had a 1 off season since 2004 when we were the 2nd highest spenders in the PL (3rd really, but Abramovich was just getting warmed up back then). fact is you can challenge and consistently if you just get smarter. Instead Wenger just sulks and starts throwing tantrums. Imagine claiming that Chelsea spent more money than us so that why they beat us 2-0. we were not even remotely in that game. Chelsea's last Cl match was against a team whose yearly budget I am sure is less than Wengers salary. we had just spent almost 80m on 2 players in that same team and he claims we were broke. Thats why we lost.

Yes there is only 1 Arsene Wenger, I bloody hope so, cos I would not wish his 2006-2014 version on any football team.

Wenger really exposed himself with the comment about Chelsea having money to buy players like "Hazard and Costa" who make a difference.

If he would have said this 5 years ago he would have gotten away with it but not now, especially given the Ozil and Sanchez purchases over the past few seasons. I can't remember where I read it but our front 3 in that game actually cost more than Chelsea's, ours was Ozil 42m, Sanchez 35m, Welbeck 16m, that's 93m worth of talent.

Wenger has money, he just doesn't spend it in the right areas of the team.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wenger really exposed himself with the comment about Chelsea having money to buy players like "Hazard and Costa" who make a difference.

If he would have said this 5 years ago he would have gotten away with it but not now, especially given the Ozil and Sanchez purchases over the past few seasons. I can't remember where I read it but our front 3 in that game actually cost more than Chelsea's, ours was Ozil 42m, Sanchez 35m, Welbeck 16m, that's 93m worth of talent.

Wenger has money, he just doesn't spend it in the right areas of the team.

My main frustration with Wenger is that the main reason for me that he doesn't learn from his mistakes is that there is no consequence for his catalogue of failings.
You can tell that the only time the pressure is on is when 4th place is in question, it's only when it appears we could drop out of the Champions League that the results and the performances bizarrely seem to improve.

[Letters]

Some of that frustration should be with the board to set his deliverables.
They're clearly happy with a top 4 finish and the money continuing to roll in.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Some of that frustration should be with the board to set his deliverables.
They're clearly happy with a top 4 finish and the money continuing to roll in.

Much of my frustration is with the board
My disagreement with people on here is with other users who believe no one but Wenger is at fault where I believe there is equal culpability.
But ultimately we have often had a squad capable of competing and it is does not reflect well on the Manager that he has either lacked the ability or motivation to at the very least take a title challenge into the last week or so of the season.

[Özim]

There's no doubt the board are to blame, but despite that I still feel that as top class manager your aim should be to succeed by winning the big trophies, he seems all too happy settling for 4th.

That might well be what the board are happy with, but what about his managerial ambitions?

[selassie]

My main frustration with Wenger is that the main reason for me that he doesn't learn from his mistakes is that there is no consequence for his catalogue of failings.
You can tell that the only time the pressure is on is when 4th place is in question, it's only when it appears we could drop out of the Champions League that the results and the performances bizarrely seem to improve.

Aye, It's a frustration of mine too. Not only do results improve but we seem a lot more focused, tactically aware and organised, it's weird!

[Letters]

Letters doesn't like facts that contradict his entrained line of thinking. You can only beat the moneyed clubs with money....but when some club like Athletico do it or Pool almost do it. he says its a 1 off.

My line of thinking is that the clubs with the infinite money cheat on clearly have a big advantage over the rest.
Money and success in football are very highly correlated.

Is that an unreasonable line of thinking? It's clearly true. Since 2004 only 3 clubs have won the title in England, the three with the highest resources. Cups by their nature are more variable but even then there are only 2 examples in the FA Cup in the last 20 years of anyone outside the top few winning it - Wigan (who beat City which I think most would agree was a shock result) and Portsmouth (who beat Millwall in an unusual season when none of the big guns made the final).

Liverpool did well last year but they had no European football and one world class player who nearly dragged them single handly to the title. Even then they fell short (literally) in the end. And now they've lost said player and have the CL games to contend with they've been all over the shop.
Athletico have done exceptionally well but they are a rare exception that proves the rule (I never understood that phrase until I read that an old meaning of 'prove' was 'test', the phrase makes much more sense that way).
They are a rare counter-example and shows it's possible. No-one said it's not possible. All I said is we can't compete with City and Chelsea in the transfer market. Do you disagree? But we DO have the resources to build a squad good enough to get much closer than we are. If you get close then you just need a bit of luck and you could win the title. Wenger has failed to get close enough consistently to give us that chance and that's where he's failed.

[Özim]

His legacy has been tainted, I'd agree, but is it that hard to remember the great teams? You don't have any problem remembering the 'wonderful' 92/93 team who, frankly, were awful to watch. That season had a happy finish (which could easily have gone the other way) but 80% of it was horrible, we finished about 7 points above relegation, scored something like 40 goals in 42 games. It was boring boring Arsenal and their boring boringest.

The teams in the first half of Wenger's reign were far, far better and I feel priviledged to have had a season ticket during that period. Clough took Forest down in the end and I believe he's still regarded highly by Forest fans. All Wenger's done is taken us from first to fourth and he's vilified. He certainly deserves some stick and I think we all agree it's time for him to move on now but the legacy of the trophies, great football and steering us through the stadium move should not be forgotten or ignored.

You remember the good of 92/93 and conveniently forget how awful most of the season was, it would be weird to ignore all the good Wenger's done. 5 FA Cups, 3 titles, two of those doubles, an unbeaten season, amazing football, keeping our heads above water financially during a massively complicated stadium move. It's a shame he didn't go on a high last season but in the fulness of time I think his legacy will be appreciated. It bloody well should be.

I don't remember 92/93 that well, what made it memorable was that last gasp winning goal, the matches themselves are hard to remember, just as those from our successful years under Wenger are, largely because in the last 8 years he's forced us to watch slow-paced, boring and largely ineffective football, which year on year has led to the same result.

I want to remember the great times but we've had so many years of more mediocre times it's hard to really recall those with any great clarity, my feelings towards Wenger is that rather leaving as a true great, he'll leave as a good manager with glaring flaws, who rather than be proactive hid behind convenient excuses and limited his ambition to the board's financial requirements.

[Letters]

There's no doubt the board are to blame, but despite that I still feel that as top class manager your aim should be to succeed by winning the big trophies, he seems all too happy settling for 4th.

That might well be what the board are happy with, but what about his managerial ambitions?
Yes, you can tell by what a sulky arse he is when things are going wrong how happy he is.

[selassie]

There's no doubt the board are to blame, but despite that I still feel that as top class manager your aim should be to succeed by winning the big trophies, he seems all too happy settling for 4th.

That might well be what the board are happy with, but what about his managerial ambitions?

Yeah this is my issue too. I accept that the board have a part to play and are at fault too but any manager worth their salt would want to win and at all costs.

Wenger isn't pragmatic enough, we need a winner now.

[selassie]

Yes, you can tell by what a sulky arse he is when things are going wrong how happy he is.

The problem is the faults of the team/squad are his own doing. It's not like he has inherited this squad, he's built this unbalanced squad and is now suffering the consequences. Of course there are issues with tactics, recurring injuries etc.

Sure he is not happy with not winning but he most certainly isn't doing enough to ensure we go into the season with the best chance of winning.

[Özim]

Yes, you can tell by what a sulky arse he is when things are going wrong how happy he is.

What does he actually do about it though? Sulking is one thing but it all seems far too shortlived for him, he's full of excuses in interviews and never fixes glaring issues.

To me that's a sign of someone that doesn't see winning as the be all and end all, there's other top managers that clearly show how much winning means to them and how important it is.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

What does he actually do about it though? Sulking is one thing but it all seems far too shortlived for him, he's full of excuses in interviews and never fixes glaring issues.

To me that's a sign of someone that doesn't see winning as the be all and end all, there's other top managers that clearly show how much winning means to them and how important it is.

But wenger throws his arms really high in the air when we lose, so he cares!

[Letters]

Is it that hard? Really? You can't remember that side with Bergkamp and Henry in? I do, it was awesome.
I might not remember individual games in detail but I can remember plenty of individual moments.
I agree about Wenger to an extent, if he'd left in the mid 'noughties' he'd have been rightly remembered as a true great.
Even now I think he should be seen as a bit more than 'good' but I doubt he'll be seen as an all time great.
I still think he'd sit alongside Chapman as our most important manager though.

[Letters]

What does he actually do about it though? Sulking is one thing but it all seems far too shortlived for him, he's full of excuses in interviews and never fixes glaring issues.

To me that's a sign of someone that doesn't see winning as the be all and end all, there's other top managers that clearly show how much winning means to them and how important it is.
To me it's the sign of someone who doesn't have the ability to do anything about it, I don't for one minute think it's a lack of desire to.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

If it's ability because of money, that is not true anymore, so he has to go.

If it's ability because of his skills, then you've just proved he's no longer good enough, so has to go.

:tiphat:

[Letters]

If it's ability because of money, that is not true anymore, so he has to go.

If it's ability because of his skills, then you've just proved he's no longer good enough, so has to go.

:tiphat:
Everyone agrees he has to go :shrug:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Everyone agrees he has to go :shrug:

Everyone except the people who have any influence over when he goes

[Letters]

Everyone except the people who have any influence over when he goes

Their criteria of 'success' is very different from the fans' though.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The fans who provide from their own pockets a fair chunk of the revenue they enjoy

And it's not just the board, it's the two main shareholders

On one hand we have Enos Stanley Kroenke for whom the club is the cherry on his financial portfolio cake

On the other hand we have Alisher Usmanov; a rapist, a gangster and a Putin apparatchik

Fucked doesn't do it justice

Thanks David Dein

[fakeyank]

Their criteria of 'success' is very different from the fans' though.

And yet the fans do nothing about it.. simple question for everyone.. Other than sitting on our arse and doing nothing, what can we the fans do for the club to try and make a change at the board level? And Managerial level?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And yet the fans do nothing about it.. simple question for everyone.. Other than sitting on our arse and doing nothing, what can we the fans do for the club to try and make a change at the board level? And Managerial level?

Unless anyone here is on the Forbes list, there really isn't anything that can be done

Even if everyone cancelled their season tickets, a whole army of people is there to take its place

If it was that easy to challenge vested interests we'd have had meaningful banking reforms

[fakeyank]

This is weird to me when you say there is an army of people ready to take its place. Why!?!? We play boring football and we dont look like challenging for any top honors. Why are people so ready to lap up this serving of bland average football? Surely Chelsea is a better bet for the bandwagoners to go to..

[Letters]

And yet the fans do nothing about it.. simple question for everyone.. Other than sitting on our arse and doing nothing, what can we the fans do for the club to try and make a change at the board level? And Managerial level?

Stop going to games. Stop buying merchandise.
The only real power we have as fans is that we, ultimately, are paying for it all.
But only if people stop going en masse would there be any incentive to change
I stopped going a couple of years ago (not as a protest) but I'm sure someone else is there instead so what do the board care?
The money is still rolling in one way or another.

[Niall_Quinn]

Everyone agrees he has to go :shrug:

Stop trying to ruin everything. You clearly still have toys in your pram. Therefore: you want Wenger to stay forever, you think he's the best manager and (more importantly) the best tactician in the world, you also think he shouldn't sign defenders, you want the ticket prices to be higher, you'd rather finish 4th than 1st and you want some of our players not to be sold. Once and for all - do you get that?

[Niall_Quinn]

This is weird to me when you say there is an army of people ready to take its place. Why!?!? We play boring football and we dont look like challenging for any top honors. Why are people so ready to lap up this serving of bland average football? Surely Chelsea is a better bet for the bandwagoners to go to..

Because the focus shifted from football to revenue during the stadium move and it doesn't seem to have shifted back since, or else it hasn't shifted back as dramatically as it shifted away. We have a different philosophy as a club now. We are supreme winners on the balance sheet rather than on the pitch and we have a manager who bought into the business plan wholeheartedly and evidently has changed beyond recognition from the early days when it was all about winning on the pitch. So the question becomes, who, if anyone, can change the philosophy of the club. Won't be Kroenke, that's for sure. This will be a blissful situation for him, much in line with his other franchises. I wonder can we tempt Fergie out of retirement? Boots would be flying in no time.

[Letters]

Stop trying to ruin everything. You clearly still have toys in your pram. Therefore: you want Wenger to stay forever, you think he's the best manager and (more importantly) the best tactician in the world, you also think he shouldn't sign defenders, you want the ticket prices to be higher, you'd rather finish 4th than 1st and you want some of our players not to be sold. Once and for all - do you get that?
Rumbled.

I think Wenger's the best manager in Arsenal history.












(I do, actually...)

[Letters]

This is weird to me when you say there is an army of people ready to take its place. Why!?!? We play boring football and we dont look like challenging for any top honors. Why are people so ready to lap up this serving of bland average football? Surely Chelsea is a better bet for the bandwagoners to go to..

Chelsea are a better bet for the band-waggoners now but we had a fairly sustained period of success, 7 years of trophies, great football, fantastic players. We were a big club to begin with and that period generated a massive global fanbase, a whole generation of kids who are now stuck with Arsenal as their team.
Some idiots even come all the way from America to watch us :lol:
Them :pal:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

This is weird to me when you say there is an army of people ready to take its place. Why!?!? We play boring football and we dont look like challenging for any top honors. Why are people so ready to lap up this serving of bland average football? Surely Chelsea is a better bet for the bandwagoners to go to..

Do you feel inclined to support Chelsea ?

There are enough people on the waiting list to become season ticket holders for the club not to panic

We are the third biggest supported club in the country, club allegiance isn't as fluid as you think

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

IM THE BEST MANAGER IN ARSENALS HISTORY :threaten:










(I do, actually...)[/QUOTE]

[Marc Overmars]

This is weird to me when you say there is an army of people ready to take its place. Why!?!? We play boring football and we dont look like challenging for any top honors. Why are people so ready to lap up this serving of bland average football? Surely Chelsea is a better bet for the bandwagoners to go to..

Supporting the club and more importantly attending games is a way of life, you have to remember this is Arsenal FC not Wenger FC.

Even though I don't like what I'm seeing on the pitch anymore, if I had a grand going spare I would definitely get a season ticket.

[fakeyank]

Chelsea are a better bet for the band-waggoners now but we had a fairly sustained period of success, 7 years of trophies, great football, fantastic players. We were a big club to begin with and that period generated a massive global fanbase, a whole generation of kids who are now stuck with Arsenal as their team.
Some idiots even come all the way from America to watch us :lol:
Them :pal:

I was young and naive.. :getcoat:

My fiance still wants to go to an Arsenal game, so I probably will fly down again to watch them. I hate being a fan :(

[fakeyank]

Supporting the club and more importantly attending games is a way of life, you have to remember this is Arsenal FC not Wenger FC.

Even though I don't like what I'm seeing on the pitch anymore, if I had a grand going spare I would definitely get a season ticket.

So you are the culprit! :angry:

[fakeyank]

Do you feel inclined to support Chelsea ?

There are enough people on the waiting list to become season ticket holders for the club not to panic

We are the third biggest supported club in the country, club allegiance isn't as fluid as you think

Did I say I wanted to support Chelsea?

I am not questioning people's allegiance to Arsenal, what I am questioning is the lack of action. Why are frustrated people still waiting in line for an inferior product? I am not saying we fans stop loving Arsenal, I am asking why we are not taking action about the massive gap between what our potential and what we see on the pitch.

[mr_brighterside]

His legacy has been tainted, I'd agree, but is it that hard to remember the great teams? You don't have any problem remembering the 'wonderful' 92/93 team who, frankly, were awful to watch. That season had a happy finish (which could easily have gone the other way) but 80% of it was horrible, we finished about 7 points above relegation, scored something like 40 goals in 42 games. It was boring boring Arsenal and their boring boringest.

The teams in the first half of Wenger's reign were far, far better and I feel priviledged to have had a season ticket during that period. Clough took Forest down in the end and I believe he's still regarded highly by Forest fans. All Wenger's done is taken us from first to fourth and he's vilified. He certainly deserves some stick and I think we all agree it's time for him to move on now but the legacy of the trophies, great football and steering us through the stadium move should not be forgotten or ignored.

You remember the good of 92/93 and conveniently forget how awful most of the season was, it would be weird to ignore all the good Wenger's done. 5 FA Cups, 3 titles, two of those doubles, an unbeaten season, amazing football, keeping our heads above water financially during a massively complicated stadium move. It's a shame he didn't go on a high last season but in the fulness of time I think his legacy will be appreciated. It bloody well should be.

however I don't think his tenure post the trophies will be remembered positively. Moyes kept Everton in the top 6 or there abouts for a decade but he is hardly going to be considered a legend. also wenger's poor assessment of character since then with players like gallas, adebayor etc. don't do him any favours.

[fakeyank]

I still think Wenger will be remembered fondly in the next 10-20 years. Going through a whole season unbeaten is a feat which I dont think will be emulated anytime soon... though Chelsea always seem to scare me! Think about it.. 49 games in the PL and 0 defeats! I have a lot of dislike to his policies and footballing philosophies in the last few years but if you stand back and take a look at what he has done since 1996, I think he should be remembered fondly.

I do agree though that the longer he stays and puts out clueless teams out in the middle, the worse he is making it for himself. There wasnt a better time than May 2014 to have walked out! I dont know if it was the money or something else.. but whatever it was, it will be one of the biggest mistakes he has made (and he has made a lot in the last many seasons)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Did I say I wanted to support Chelsea?

I am not questioning people's allegiance to Arsenal, what I am questioning is the lack of action. Why are frustrated people still waiting in line for an inferior product? I am not saying we fans stop loving Arsenal, I am asking why we are not taking action about the massive gap between what our potential and what we see on the pitch.

my point is that people don't change their footballing allegiance just because they don't like what's on the menu at their own club (you wouldn't and there's no reason to think anyone else would)

and there will be plenty of people prepared to pay out for tickets just for the privilege of supporting the club regardless of how they feel it should be doing.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I still think Wenger will be remembered fondly in the next 10-20 years. Going through a whole season unbeaten is a feat which I dont think will be emulated anytime soon... though Chelsea always seem to scare me! Think about it.. 49 games in the PL and 0 defeats! I have a lot of dislike to his policies and footballing philosophies in the last few years but if you stand back and take a look at what he has done since 1996, I think he should be remembered fondly.

I do agree though that the longer he stays and puts out clueless teams out in the middle, the worse he is making it for himself. There wasnt a better time than May 2014 to have walked out! I dont know if it was the money or something else.. but whatever it was, it will be one of the biggest mistakes he has made (and he has made a lot in the last many seasons)


Pretty much, i think what people forget as well is that he is a transformative manager....the reason we are frustrated with him is because in doing what he did between 1996 and 2005 he elevated the reputation of the club and the expectation of the fans.
Don't get me wrong Arsenal have always been a big club, but we weren't part of the European Elite....and the stability and reputation he had brought on the pitch has made us such a club in terms of financial might if not performance/results.
He has given us all he's got and is a spent force now, the board have retained him partly because they know that under him Arsenal have never finished outside the top four and partly because he in return has shown the club loyalty during a transistory phase when other clubs were interested in his services.
He has frustrated the hell out of me, and he doesn't deserve the money he is on....but what he has achieved with us has rightly earnt him sporting immortality

[Niall_Quinn]

Let's say, hypodermically, you did start supporting the chavs. What would you do on the first day? Maybe look at pictures of Maureen and go, yay! Or stick up a poster of Ramires? Or start singing chavvy songs? That'd be the first day. WTF would you do on the second day? And what about match days? Wouldn't it be a bit weird wanting the despicable cunts you support to lose? Wouldn't you get beaten up every time you went to a match? I don't think it would be much fun to support the chavs.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

What's a transistory phase? :shrug:

[Injury Time]

What's a transistory phase? :shrug:
Something to do with POWER! and resistors little bit 2%? :unsure:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What's a transistory phase? :shrug:

An example would be the kind of thing you experience once a month

It doesn't last

Although if it does you need to get a referral to colposcopy

[LDG]

I was young and naive.. :getcoat:

My fiance still wants to go to an Arsenal game, so I probably will fly down again to watch them. I hate being a fan :(


Fiancé? How the fuck did I miss this!?!

Congratulations :)

When did you propose to him/her??

[Letters]

When did you propose to him/her??
:lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

When did you propose to him/her??

Yeah stop trying to impose roles on people you krypto fascist

[fakeyank]

Fiancé? How the fuck did I miss this!?!

Congratulations :)

When did you propose to him/her??

:lol:

Gotta get on Facebook more often, my friend...

I proposed to him a few weeks before your wedding. He is perfect.. everything a boy could dream of :cloud9:

[Letters]

And we're back to one Arsene Wenger...
I hope you'll be very happy together.

[selassie]

Anybody speak French or Understand what Uncle Arsene is rambling on about?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2E-CYrT8tk&feature=youtu.be&t=3m48s

[Niall_Quinn]

Anybody speak French or Understand what Uncle Arsene is rambling on about?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2E-CYrT8tk&feature=youtu.be&t=3m48s

One of the words was Sunderland, but I didn't really understand the rest.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

One of the words was Sunderland, but I didn't really understand the rest.

Damaged against Sunderland in 2006 by an assassins tackle

[Globalgunner]

Doesnt this man ever get that sometimes its better to just shut up?
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/nov/21/arsenal-arsene-wenger-lionel-messi-barcelona

Up there with I almost signed
Ronaldo
Ibrahimovic
Yaya Toure
Franc Ribery
Sanogo......Oh heck!. We did sign that one

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I read it and thought of his comment a while back along the lines of 'I could tell you some stories, one day I will write a book'.......

Surely if there ever was a story to leave for the book that was it! Every other 'I almost signed.....' pales into the distance after that one.

The more he does it though the more it just starts to look like he never had the cojones to do what it took to get a few more of them....Should have moved heaven and hell to get Messi here. Would have single handedly won Wenger several more trophies.

[GP]

http://i.imgur.com/X2WPuM6.jpg

[Master Splinter]

:haha:

[selassie]

He's got to go now, things are only going to get worse with him in charge.

[fakeyank]

He's got to go now, things are only going to get worse with him in charge.

But whose there to replace him? :rolleyes:

[Maestro]

I would take Bould in temporary charge right now, even for the rest of the season

[rodders]

He has to go, hope he resigns so avoids being sacked. Trouble is he never sees what he has done wrong

[selassie]

I would take Bould in temporary charge right now, even for the rest of the season

Me too, I'd take Paul Merson too!

[selassie]

But whose there to replace him? :rolleyes:

:lol:

[Xhaka Can’t]

He won't go and he won't be sacked.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://i.imgur.com/X2WPuM6.jpg

Wenger: I refuse to accept criticism from a closet nonce

[LDG]

Things are starting to happen now. It won't be long if the results remain poor.

Even Ian Wright has joined in saying enough is enough.

End of the season I reckon.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Only way I can see him going before 2017 is failure to finish fourth, which inevitably by hook or by crook we will so he will be allowed to limp on.
Other possibility albeit remote is if the coaching staff turn on him, but they won't want to rock the boat as I think they recognise that a failure to act before now would make it hard for them to get jobs elsewhere

[LDG]

Only way I can see him going before 2017 is failure to finish fourth, which inevitably by hook or by crook we will so he will be allowed to limp on.
Other possibility albeit remote is if the coaching staff turn on him, but they won't want to rock the boat as I think they recognise that a failure to act before now would make it hard for them to get jobs elsewhere

I know it's only hearsay, but there is talk that the players are starting to get fed up with it all; add that there is a change in the staunchest of fans views....

I don't think 4th is enough to stop the disquiet now, as we know that there is money available to do better, and I think all fans agree we should be doing a lot better....even with the players we have.

This is now purely about the ability of the manager to do the job required. He has no excuses, and I think everyone, the board included, recognise that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The board are essentially beholden to Enos the majority shareholder, he clearly doesn't care what the fans think and the revenues from finishing 4th are all that matter to him.
I think the atmosphere amongst fans, players and staff would have to get a hell of a lot more sour for him to bat an eyelid.
The sad thing is Wenger himself, we know he isn't stupid so he must know he cannot carry on but he's insulated himself so much from criticism that he probably cannot acknowledge that he's doing wrong.
I think for Wenger to be convinced, than someone he listens to would have to be convinced and that someone would be David Dein.

[1_nilto the arsenal]

All Arsenal fans young and old greatly appreciate what he's done for the club during is tenure, but the time has come for him to annouce his departure end of the season. That way he will leave the club with the respect of the fans and it will give the club the opportunity to recruit a new manager. The club have to be challenging for the championship as Arsenal is a massive club, and that must be the remit of the manager 1st place. The players are all conditioned to 4th place and that mentalitiy is all wrong.

[Özim]

Wenger just lives in his own little world where everyone else is always wrong and doesn't know what they are talking about. Yet if you look back at recent years, some of the shocking results and of course our lack of success everything suggests he's taken the wrong approach, his failure to acknowledge that he's using the wrong tactics, approach and not dealing with glaring issues is a major hindrance to the club.

I can't really understand how someone can just be happy to make excuses and ignore big issues, he's seen our results this season and yet he remains in total denial.

[selassie]

I know some of you guys don't like Usmanov and what he stands for but he is right here IMO.

Of course he is saying this to get more support on his side but you can't deny what he isn't saying what a majority of us think....he does state the obvious in places and is maybe a little too simplistic but the general gist of the message is right.

http://www.football365.com/news/21554/9577789/-




Usmanov admits Wenger mistakes

Arsenal's second biggest shareholder Alisher Usmanov says Arsene Wenger's principles may be holding Arsenal back, claiming the manager must admit his own mistakes.

Usmanov, an Uzbekistani businessman who owns a 30% stake in Arsenal, was speaking to CNBC following the defeat to Manchester United.

Arsenal have now lost 11 of their last 15 matches to United, winning just one. They have won just four of their 12 Premier League games this season.

"[The] potential of the team is there, but there is no critical evaluation of own mistakes and their admittance.," Usmanov said. "Because not a single genius can retain its level when he does not admit own mistakes. Only when you admit your mistakes you rid of them. I wish this to my club.

"We just repeat same results year by year. Quite high to secure the place in the Champions League. But we regularly lose in the first round of play-offs. As an investor I am not happy with that.

"I like Arsene for his principles. But principles are sort of restriction. And restrictions are always lost possibilities. That's why sometimes coaches even without principles became the coaches of great teams.

"My opinion, and I tell it openly, we need to strengthen every position to play on the level of such teams in UK as Chelsea and Manchester City, in Europe like Real, Barcelona, Paris Saint-Germain, Bavaria [Bayern Munich] and other clubs."

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If I was a wooly minded Christian, my response would be even the Devil may appear as an angel of light

[selassie]

If I was a wooly minded Christian, my response would be even the Devil may appear as an angel of light

:lol:

[Letters]

If I was a wooly minded Christian
Are you suggesting that's the only kind of Christian? :sarcy:
And while we're at it, there are plenty of woolly minded people on here most of whom I suspect are not Christians...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well no otherwise the two words would not have been used independently of each other....which they were

Although it wouldn't be much of a step to make a comparison between certain people of religious faith and those like Ty who cannot see any wrong with our current manager, it seems based on wishful thinking and belief rather than available evidence.

Then again for the life of me I don't know why a Christian would want their beliefs to be true.

[Letters]

Really? I don't know why anyone wouldn't want them to be true. :)
I think I should probably step away from this now though.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Really? I don't know why anyone wouldn't want them to be true. :).

I could give you a list but a) I'm still being paid to work (meaning they haven't caught onto me yet) and b) it would be taking the thread off at an alarming tangent.

[Letters]

My guess is the list would be a wildly inaccurate one, in terms of what Christians actually believe, but feel free to PM me in your spare time if you wish :tiphatL

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The point would be that a great deal of Christians don't believe the same thing, and your modern day Christian is more inclined to take passages from the Bible which they feel best suits them. Which for me is the equivalent of my mother regarding the Women's realm as her holy scripture because she's been known to cut out recipes she likes from the food section.

[mr_brighterside]

The point would be that a great deal of Christians don't believe the same thing, and your modern day Christian is more inclined to take passages from the Bible which they feel best suits them. Which for me is the equivalent of my mother regarding the Women's realm as her holy scripture because she's been known to cut out recipes she likes from the food section.

Its always been the way that there is the false church who misuse or ignore the bible and the true church who believe the Bible and put Jesus rather than the culture as it's head

[Niall_Quinn]

There's the Christian way of living and the Christian church, two different things. The Christian church is an easy way to avoid living a Christian life, it hires mortals to dole out perks (or the promises of perks) for the heavily discounted price of conformity. A Christian life would be tough in the modern age. For example, there's no way you can be a genuine Christian and vote or pay tax. You can't work for the government. You can't have a bank account. It's a long list. I can't imagine there are many Christians.

[Power n Glory]

What? Why can't you vote or pay taxes? Or have a bank account?

Why the heck is this being discussed? :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

What? Why can't you vote or pay taxes? Or have a bank account?

Why the heck is this being discussed? :lol:

Don't know. I didn't start it.

Of course a Christian can't vote or pay taxes. Though shall not kill, thou shall not covet, etc, etc.

[1_nilto the arsenal]

I know some of you guys don't like Usmanov and what he stands for but he is right here IMO.

Of course he is saying this to get more support on his side but you can't deny what he isn't saying what a majority of us think....he does state the obvious in places and is maybe a little too simplistic but the general gist of the message is right.

http://www.football365.com/news/21554/9577789/-

I only wish Alisha was the majority shareholder and not that yank who is just interested in a buck. Alisha bought in to Arsenal as toy thing, if he the chance he would compete toe to toe with Abu Dubai, his fello ruskie and the Qatar's. This man would turn Arsenal in to world beaters with superstar signings all over the park, and would hire and fire managers based on what they have wonm which is no bad thing, just look at Chelsea's model on managers, you dont win the league or champions league your out the door mate. Thats the type of mentality we need now, not Wenger running the club top to bottom and owning the CEO. Its a joke.

He has the highest paid and easiest job in world football. Has become unsackable, he even hires the CEO!! This is a man who plays players who are crap in their position in to a secondary role, and forgets to sign Giroud for the Uefa champions league.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Wouldn't even know where to begin on some of the ridiculous comments in the last few pages.

[Xhaka Can’t]

What? Why can't you vote or pay taxes? Or have a bank account?

Why the heck is this being discussed? :lol:

It's something new - let it roll.

[Niall_Quinn]

To be fair on the Giroud situation, when was the last time one of our players recovered from injury ahead of schedule? If this had been a standard Arsenal injury Giroud wouldn't be back until 2025 and then only for half a game before getting injured again. We'd have moaned just as much if he'd tied up a slot for an injured player.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's something new - let it roll.

And going to mass is more thrilling than watching Arsenal. And less predictable. And the crowd is noisier.

[Xhaka Can’t]

And going to mass is more thrilling than watching Arsenal. And less predictable. And the crowd is noisier.

The programmes are free too.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Excellent analysis from neville and carragher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFUPw4J2T3A

If you're still sticking up for wenger you're a clueless idiot.

[fakeyank]

Excellent analysis from neville and carragher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFUPw4J2T3A

If you're still sticking up for wenger you're a clueless idiot.

What a brilliant analysis. The board are a bunch of spineless assholes if they cant see what a terrible manager Wenger has become. He is like cancer to the club.

[Globalgunner]

First thing is that there are few true Christians on this board because the bible states that. "Thou shalt have no other God than me, for I am a jealous god". Most of you idolaters used to worship some muppet called Wenger. Many are yet to recant......Unless you do. No chance of making heaven.

[mr_brighterside]

There's the Christian way of living and the Christian church, two different things. The Christian church is an easy way to avoid living a Christian life, it hires mortals to dole out perks (or the promises of perks) for the heavily discounted price of conformity. A Christian life would be tough in the modern age. For example, there's no way you can be a genuine Christian and vote or pay tax. You can't work for the government. You can't have a bank account. It's a long list. I can't imagine there are many Christians.

?

In the new testament (e.g. Romans) Christians are told to submit to governing authorities and Jesus himself said to pay tax. Voting is part of partaking in the governing structures of the day, as unpalatable as most parties are today.

Also the division between church and Christian isn't one the Bible allows, see Hebrews for example. There are religious organisations that call themselves churches but rely on their works rather than Christ's work for their eternal hope, these are not churches and eternity will show it to be so.

[mr_brighterside]

First thing is that there are few true Christians on this board because the bible states that. "Thou shalt have no other God than me, for I am a jealous god". Most of you idolaters used to worship some muppet called Wenger. Many are yet to recant......Unless you do. No chance of making heaven.

:lol:

In Arsene I do not trust! (except to deliver defeat)

[Niall_Quinn]

?

In the new testament (e.g. Romans) Christians are told to submit to governing authorities and Jesus himself said to pay tax. Voting is part of partaking in the governing structures of the day, as unpalatable as most parties are today.

Also the division between church and Christian isn't one the Bible allows, see Hebrews for example. There are religious organisations that call themselves churches but rely on their works rather than Christ's work for their eternal hope, these are not churches and eternity will show it to be so.

The Bible advocates all sorts of behaviour, fair and foul. The Church's version of Jesus probably bears no resemblance to the man. Whichever man you decide to pick, as there were many Jesus figures around that time and before. The Jesus of the New Testament was plainly a revolutionary, in an earthly as well as spiritual sense. Whether he wanted to be worshipped through the ages is open to debate. This is why I distinguish between the Christianity of the Church (the façade and let's face it, nothing more than a development of the Sun 'son' worship religions that went before) and what surely is the principle and intent that underlies Christianity as a way of life. I think we can all agree that refraining from murder, robbery, and so on is the ultimate ideal. Love everyone as you would love yourself. This is a simple but powerfully all-encompassing directive and really speaking no other rules are required as they are all implied. The principle of government and taxation is not the problem. But you can't in all conscience contribute to a modern day government and it's evil economic policies, social policies and warmongering and then claim to follow the doctrine of love. It's entirely contradictory. What I'm really saying is the modern Christian is a coward.

[Xhaka Can’t]

First thing is that there are few true Christians on this board because the bible states that. "Thou shalt have no other God than me, for I am a jealous god". Most of you idolaters used to worship some muppet called Wenger. Many are yet to recant......Unless you do. No chance of making heaven.
Zealot

[Letters]

F*** off! We're the Wengerian People's Front.
Pff. People's Front of Wenger.
Splitters!

[Globalgunner]

I'm afraid NQ is taking all of this much too seriously. Chill out man! we are just using this as an escape from our collective misery. If God really worried about the suffering of mankind. He would have visited Wenger one evening to ask WTF is going on. One God to another mind you.

[LDG]

Santa must be pissed off too :(

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm afraid NQ is taking all of this much too seriously. Chill out man! we are just using this as an escape from our collective misery. If God really worried about the suffering of mankind. He would have visited Wenger one evening to ask WTF is going on. One God to another mind you.

??? No I'm not. Besides, if you are going to use religion (or politics) as a form of escapism then you deserve what you get.

[Niall_Quinn]

Santa must be pissed off too :(

He won't be wearing red this year.

[Letters]

??? No I'm not. Besides, if you are going to use religion (or politics) as a form of escapism then you deserve what you get.

Eternal life?

:yippee:

:cool:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

First thing is that there are few true Christians on this board because the bible states that. "Thou shalt have no other God than me, for I am a jealous god". Most of you idolaters used to worship some muppet called Wenger. Many are yet to recant......Unless you do. No chance of making heaven.

Top post.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Eternal life?

:yippee:

:cool:

I don't know if you've read my message, but this was one of the examples I gave of why not only do I not hold Christian beliefs to be true, i do not wish them to be either.

Eternal life seems absolutely a ghastly a concept as I could think of, no matter how resplendent Heaven purports to be as a reward and incentive for good behaviour in my mortal existence.

For things never to end is far far more terrifying to me than there being nothing after death (which in fact I won't worry about as I will have no consciousness)

[Letters]

I don't know if you've read my message
I have. I will reply.

[Letters]

a reward and incentive for good behaviour[/B] in my mortal existence.
No...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think it was my objection to Mr Usmanov that started this Segway into religion

Mr Wenger this afternoon has taken the opportunity to object to Mr Usmanov, not answering any of his specific criticisms but feeling that Mr Usmanov should be taking his criticisms to him face to face rather than going to the papers.

Rightly or wrongly Mr Usmanov has been ostracised by the club and is not even offered a place on the board

I deplore Usmanov, I think in an equitable world he'd be in prison for his crimes, however he is a major investor and he has a right to make his opinions public especially as he knows its the only way his views will be seen/heard.

I question his motivations I think it's a clear attempt to ingratiate himself with frustrated fans, and if he owned the club he'd become the very thing we claim to hate.

But I am appreciative of anyone who is prepared to call out the manager on his failures

[Globalgunner]

I think it was my objection to Mr Usmanov that started this Segway into religion

Mr Wenger this afternoon has taken the opportunity to object to Mr Usmanov, not answering any of his specific criticisms but feeling that Mr Usmanov should be taking his criticisms to him face to face rather than going to the papers.

Rightly or wrongly Mr Usmanov has been ostracised by the club and is not even offered a place on the board

I deplore Usmanov, I think in an equitable world he'd be in prison for his crimes, however he is a major investor and he has a right to make his opinions public especially as he knows its the only way his views will be seen/heard.

I question his motivations I think it's a clear attempt to ingratiate himself with frustrated fans, and if he owned the club he'd become the very thing we claim to hate.

But I am appreciative of anyone who is prepared to call out the manager on his failures

Usmanov has committed no crime that our freedom loving democracies have thought fit to persecute him for. If Tony Blair and GW are free to move around spouting BS having laid waste to thousands of lives, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Wenger as usual; spouts crap in response to valid criticism. He will not meet fans face to face himself but wants Usmanov to invite him to a meeting he will most likely decline. The man is long in the tooth and way past his sell by date. Who made him the custodian of Arsenal values?. Was coming 4th perpetually ever etched into the marble walls?

[Letters]

Not sure if anyone's posted this

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/11251725/Arsene-Wenger-is-making-a-powerful-case-for-his-departure-from-Arsenal-this-summer.html

[Niall_Quinn]

I think it was my objection to Mr Usmanov that started this Segway into religion

Mr Wenger this afternoon has taken the opportunity to object to Mr Usmanov, not answering any of his specific criticisms but feeling that Mr Usmanov should be taking his criticisms to him face to face rather than going to the papers.

Rightly or wrongly Mr Usmanov has been ostracised by the club and is not even offered a place on the board

I deplore Usmanov, I think in an equitable world he'd be in prison for his crimes, however he is a major investor and he has a right to make his opinions public especially as he knows its the only way his views will be seen/heard.

I question his motivations I think it's a clear attempt to ingratiate himself with frustrated fans, and if he owned the club he'd become the very thing we claim to hate.

But I am appreciative of anyone who is prepared to call out the manager on his failures

And he's fat.

[Niall_Quinn]

Usmanov has committed no crime that our freedom loving democracies have thought fit to persecute him for. If Tony Blair and GW are free to move around spouting BS having laid waste to thousands of lives, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Cripps, Charlie and Mr Singh perhaps - but thousands of lives? Slight exaggeration there.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

This reminds me of the discussion I had in the pub with a guy who was going on about the New World Order being established by the Illuminati, my only response was that the Illuminati was formed in 1776 so they've taken a long while to get their act together.

[fakeyank]

First thing is that there are few true Christians on this board because the bible states that. "Thou shalt have no other God than me, for I am a jealous god". Most of you idolaters used to worship some muppet called Wenger. Many are yet to recant......Unless you do. No chance of making heaven.

:haha: :haha:

[mr_brighterside]

??? No I'm not. Besides, if you are going to use religion (or politics) as a form of escapism then you deserve what you get.

does the same go for the atheist delusion and the dogma of 'if it feels good do it and forget the consequences'?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

does the same go for the atheist delusion and the dogma of 'if it feels good do it and forget the consequences'?

Athiest delusion?.....the idea that there's no credible evidence to suggest that God exists (certainly not the abrahamic one), this is not a delusion because it's not a belief that God doesn't exist just there is no reason to think he/it does.

[mr_brighterside]

no evidence you have considered you mean?

have you read the Bible or attended a Christianity Explored course? Do you presume that those who are Christians have not investigated and through reason believed these things are true?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Do you presume that those who are Christians have not investigated and through reason believed these things are true?

Pretty much, that's why it's called faith and belief and not fact

I'm sure theologians have great knowledge of christianity and investigated it thoroughly, but i wonder how much of an open mind they've done it with?....have they immediately dismissed anything incompatible with their beliefs?

No evidence i have considered?....would you care to elaborate?.....when it comes down to it when someone claims to know something the burden of proof is upon them I don't know Christianity is false, i just personally think it highly unlikely.

[fakeyank]

no evidence you have considered you mean?

have you read the Bible or attended a Christianity Explored course? Do you presume that those who are Christians have not investigated and through reason believed these things are true?

99% of all people who believe in religion do so because their family previously followed that religion. And out of that 99%, 1% have actually researched their own religion and out of that 1%, only 0.1% have actually studied various religions and decided upon the best one for them. *

*Stats provided from Arsene Wengers statistical book "2% away from domination"

[mr_brighterside]

*Stats provided from Arsene's Wengers statistical book "2% away from domination"

:lol:

there's lies, damn lies and arsene's statistics!

[Power n Glory]

2% away from damnation more like. Some of you are going straight to hell! :lol:

Really, what's going on here? Has it come to this?

[fakeyank]

2% away from damnation more like. Some of you are going straight to hell! :lol:

Really, what's going on here? Has it come to this?

There's not much else to talk about really. I think everyone on here wants him gone now or gone after the end of the season. The pressure really is on Arsene now, from the fans and the media.. the crappier the results get, the higher chances he will be given the boot. Whether this crappy results mean we lose out on 4th place is up for debate.. frankly I'll take anything that drives Wenger out of the club.

[Injury Time]

There's not much else to talk about really. I think everyone on here wants him gone now or gone after the end of the season. The pressure really is on Arsene now, from the fans and the media.. the crappier the results get, the higher chances he will be given the boot. Whether this crappy results mean we lose out on 4th place is up for debate.. frankly I'll take anything that drives Wenger out of the club.
Would make a good Citroen ad tbf...

[Xhaka Can’t]

no evidence you have considered you mean?

have you... attended a Christianity Explored course?

I have £50 or whatever anyone cares to wager on this one.

[Xhaka Can’t]

2% away from damnation more like. Some of you are going straight to hell! :lol:

Really, what's going on here? Has it come to this?

Its this or our midfield.

At least there are still some people left with faith in God.

[LDG]

I have £50 or whatever anyone cares to wager on this one.


£50 is better spent on an Christian Exploring course tbf.

I heard they even offer to cut lunch by 30 minutes like they did on my First Aid course, so you can get away early.

[Letters]

My church does Alpha courses if anyone's interested.
Oh, er I mean Wenger out!

[GP]

Church :lol:

Awful cult

[Niall_Quinn]

does the same go for the atheist delusion and the dogma of 'if it feels good do it and forget the consequences'?

I didn't say religion has no value or is inferior to alternative dogmas, I said those who use it as a means of escapism deserve what they get - which will be nothing.

People who act without regard for the consequences should be killed, preferably by accident but otherwise on purpose.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Would make a good Citroen ad tbf...

Nah, all we need is a bit of va va voom.

[Injury Time]

Nah, all we need is a bit of va va voom.

Citroen, 2% from being a Renault Clio reference, tbftbhtbstbs.

[mr_brighterside]

£50 is better spent on an Christian Exploring course tbf.

I heard they even offer to cut lunch by 30 minutes like they did on my First Aid course, so you can get away early.

Christianity Explored is usually offered without a fee

It's all about asking questions and learning about who Jesus is from the first hand accounts recorded in Mark's gospel. I wouldn't recommend Alpha from what I've heard from people who've done it and what I know about it but I haven't done it myself.

[Letters]

We do Alpha. I've not done it but from what I hear it's pretty good.
I did do Freedom in Christ although missed bits so will redo it next year. I would recommend that.


In brief: Wenger In :dance:

[Niall_Quinn]

What are you all talking about? Alpha? Freedom in Christ? What the hell?

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I'm sure you can surmise. Anyway, to add my pennies worth, every alpha course I've ever seen was free and if anyone is interested in my church's alpha course I'd be happy to take them. I'll even promise not to do the cooking. :d

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

In brief: Wenger In :dance:

http://replygif.net/i/172.gif

[LDG]

What are you all talking about? Alpha? Freedom in Christ? What the hell?

A place for non-believers :good: