Wenger Referendum II - And this time it's personal

[Niall_Quinn]

There is no difference between 2nd and 3rd.

Even at the most fundamental level that statement is clearly incorrect. The team finishing second has performed better than the team finishing 3rd over the course of the season. We are up against a financially doping gypo outfit who have £30mill players stuck in the reserves. You think there's no difference to finishing above them or below them? You place a higher significance on qualifying for the CL than how we compete against our major rivals? So does Wenger. That's why he needs to go.

[Letters]

OK, fine. But last year we finished 4th. This year we (surely) will finish 3rd. But we'll have fewer points than last year. Is that better or worse?
IMO it's better because the big difference between 3rd and 4th is having to qualify for the CL. There is no such difference between 2nd and 3rd so while you're right, there is some difference, there isn't much. We're probably going to finish very close to City so I don't see a huge difference between finishing slightly above them or slightly below them. Either way it shows we can compete with them, for me that's enough. I don't see as qualifying for the CL and competing with our rivals as two things I have to choose between or prioritise, those are entirely compatible aims.

[Kano]

We finished a place higher but with less points and further away from the champs. That's what swings it for me. Finishing third feels like an average league campaign. The same ole. And I highlight focusing on the league because let's face it, that's what we're all really interested in isn't it? Domestic cups are a decoration, no solid barometer for a teams full abilities. As an example, Sevilla are on the verge of a successive Europa title but what is more telling is their league position. Most points ever in a campaign and although they may fall short next weekend, they are only 3 points away from the CL.

Psychologically second feels better not least because it breaks the mould of our 3rd and 4th decade long cycle. I would hope it would mean something more to the players too, that with additions they believe they can bridge that last gap to the top, having one, rather than two stubborn financial powerhouses to overcome. The squad have said how important it is to win those Big Four games on the pitch, so it makes sense that knowing they finished above all but one provides a massive boost of confidence. Personally I want my team to finish as high as possible, getting the maximum out of themselves. I'm sure the squad and manager feel the same but that winning run has distorted the picture slightly.

As you mentioned somewhere earlier, we are closer now to Chelsea than we were after 12 games - which is a massive problem. That is where it was lost, not stumbling after 2/3 months of getting back lost ground. The run was always going to come to an end and that final winning spurt was almost timed to absolute perfection to steal second. But it wasn't and City's bad run was also never going to last. We had zero room for slipping up on order to take second - which should have been the squads goal - because of our early season slackness. Finishing third just feels like the league cycle continues on and on.

[Letters]

The players do seem to have relaxed a bit since they secured top 4 in the same way Chelsea clearly have since they wrapped up the title. With a Cup Final to think about I can live with that. The only concern is not losing too much momentum before the final.

[Niall_Quinn]

The players do seem to have relaxed a bit since they secured top 4 in the same way Chelsea clearly have since they wrapped up the title. With a Cup Final to think about I can live with that. The only concern is not losing too much momentum before the final.

Did the ticket prices go down once we qualified for the CL? Did the player wages go down? Did the manager's wages decrease? "Too much" momentum? Why should there be any loss of momentum? Is this a professional sports team or not?

And there's absolutely zero similarity between the chav's attitude and ours. They won a title, we blew the runners-up spot. Big difference.

I just don't get how you can accept these sort of things so easily. Yes okay, football is not the be all and end all of life but if you are going to do something then do it properly FFS, or else don't bother at all. And if you are gifted a fantasy lifestyle in return for competing to win then at least have the professionalism, pride and decency to compete with all you've got.

I think the trouble with Arsenal is this sort of complacency runs right through the organisation and out through a sizeable portion of the fan base. Many have got used to being second best and turned it into an ambition.

[Letters]

Did the ticket prices go down once we qualified for the CL? Did the player wages go down? Did the manager's wages decrease?
No, but players thinking "job done" and "I don't want to get injured before the Cup Final" is fairly reasonable.
If it was the difference between first and second then that's not acceptable, but it isn't.

[LDG]

No excuses for it. Should be 100% every time.

What we needed to do was push until the last game.

a) Because you want to take confidence and good form into a cup final
b) Because you want to lay down the marker for next year

Yet again, we've made sure we go into the summer off form, like every year.

This is a top tier, professional football team with shitloads of history. I'm pissed off we didn't challenge Chelsea for the title, let alone letting 2nd go without so much as a whimper. We had the team to do it.

[Letters]

We won 9 games out of 10. We lost one and everyone's wetting themselves. :shrug:

[Niall_Quinn]

We won 9 games out of 10. We lost one and everyone's wetting themselves. :shrug:

Stop WUMming.

[Letters]

I think you're the one WUMming. I'm posting what I think, I don't think you are :good:

[Niall_Quinn]

I think you're the one WUMming. I'm posting what I think, I don't think you are :good:

You're saying it's okay to settle for a lower placing because there's no difference finishing 2nd to 3rd, you're saying it's okay to cruise the season out. You're saying going on a run of wins is some sort of achievement even though the form isn't pressed to the finish line for the maximum return. Either you are WUMming or you genuinely don't know the difference between being a winner and being a loser.

[Letters]

I think you understand what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is we did what we could to put pressure on Chelsea but ultimately, after our poor start, it wasn't enough. Chelsea came and parked the bus at ours although by then it was too late anyway, a win would have put a bit of pressure on but they were still too far ahead IMO.
The ideal in sport is that every team gives 100% in every game but you know the reality is that no team does, there are always games where for whatever reason it doesn't happen. The title was gone but top 4 was secure. There was a Cup Final to think about. I can forgive them for a bit of easing off. Every team does it. Even, as we saw last night, Chelsea. Their 'job done' was different to ours of course, but they don't have a Cup Final to think about so why would they ease off? Why not press for the maximum points? You're an apologist for them, but hammer us.

Of course we should be challenging Chelsea but after 12 games we were 15 points adrift. That is not acceptable, clearly, but Wenger and the players deserve some credit for digging us out of that hole (even though they dug it in the first place). I don't have the energy to be that bothered about us losing a silly game at home when top 4 was secured and the title was gone.

I will be cross if we drop points vs Sunderland, they smell of wee. Finish 3rd and win the Cup Final and I'll be content enough with the season.
I'd have taken it at the start of the season, I'd definitely have taken it after 12 league games. Do that and only Chelsea could be said to have had a better season.

[Niall_Quinn]

You'd have taken 3rd at the start of the season :wacko:

Wenger must be your dad.

You have the chav thing exactly reversed. Their season is over. Doesn't excuse them for chucking it in against WBA because it's entirely unsportsmanlike and disrespectful of the league and the clubs that are jostling with WBA for finishing positions and cash.

Us, we can't afford to drop 1%. Our season is not over, we need to go into the cup final at the top of our game. Taking on Villa with one foot already at Butlins is far from understandable. The gypos haven't eased off, btw. We had a game in hand on them and they couldn't have caught us had we won our remaining games. But we collapsed as usual, they didn't and now they have 2nd in the bag. 5 wins on the bounce compared to our 2 wins, 2 draws and a loss. It's a total mystery to me how you could settle for that at the tail end of the season when the chance to finish above a club we apparently can't compete with was in our hands.

Wenger is going to get away with it again. A nice day out at Wembley and our failure to finish out the PL with any sort of composure will be forgotten - until it happens again next season.

[Kano]

We won 9 games out of 10. We lost one and everyone's wetting themselves. :shrug:

I think I've out forward a well thought-out argument. Or is that wetting myself too? Perhaps statements like that are why people dig at you so much. I could call your argument bullshit but then I'd be called a WUM, so what is it you want from people. Just to agree with you or otherwise they're getting upset for nothing?

[Power n Glory]

I think I've out forward a well thought-out argument. Or is that wetting myself too? Perhaps statements like that are why people dig at you so much. I could call your argument bullshit but then I'd be called a WUM, so what is it you want from people. Just to agree with you or otherwise they're getting upset for nothing?

:gp:

He's been at this for years and I've got no patience for it. The goal posts will always shift and he'll kick the can down the 'next season' avenue.

[Letters]

3rd and the Cup? Definitely.
A season is never a complete triumph, unless you win every game and do the quadruple but unless you're playing FIFA that is impossible.

At the start of a season all fans surely think about what would constitute a successful season, and what that is depends on who you support.
If you're Spurs then you're not thinking about winning the league (unless you're Glory gGory's version of Ollie), you're targetting a top 4 finish and maybe a cup. If you're Arsenal you should be thinking about the title and maybe a cup but it's not as simple as the title = success and 3rd place = failure. There are shades of grey.

Obviously I'd rather we were champions than win the Cup, but after the early season form we needed Chelsea to go through a bad patch and they never really did.
Failing that we've finished comfortably in the top 4. Add the FA Cup then it's been a reasonably successful season.
Could have been better, obviously, but it could certainly have been a lot worse.

[Letters]

:He's been at this for years and I've got no patients.
:pal:

[GP]

:pal:

A quote from the Harold Shipman memoirs.

[Özim]

Of course we should be challenging Chelsea but after 12 games we were 15 points adrift. That is not acceptable, clearly, but Wenger and the players deserve some credit for digging us out of that hole (even though they dug it in the first place). I don't have the energy to be that bothered about us losing a silly game at home when top 4 was secured and the title was gone.

The bad start was his fault, he didn't dig us out of a hole in reality as he's the one that put us there in the 1st place. As for the finish to the season, what it kinda proves is that we'll never challenge for big prizes under Wenger because either we'll start well and fall away or start badly and then come good and then fall away again when the finish line is near. We've seen it enough times now to know that's what's going to happen.

Momentum is a big thing in football and teams that fall away or lack motivation in the final furlongs when there's still things to achieve clearly aren't setup to win things.

[Letters]

what is it you want from people.
I don't want anything from people :shrug:

This section is Arsenal debate, I'm giving my views. I understand how people were fed up about things early season when we were playing so poorly, I was very firmly in the "Wenger Out" camp then. Since then my views have softened because of the good run which has seen us finish safely in the top 4 and get to the Cup Final. For me, 3rd and an FA Cup is a good season. Not a great season but after so long without a trophy 2 cups in 2 years would be a nice change. We need to be challenging for the title next year, obviously. It's debatable whether Wenger can do that but IMO this is the best squad he's had for a long time so I'm hopeful. We need to be preparing for his departure either way because of his age but he's a safe enough pair of hands and there's no need to rush it.

[Letters]

The bad start was his fault, he didn't dig us out of a hole in reality as he's the one that put us there in the 1st place.

That's pretty much exactly what I said :lol:

[Letters]

As for the finish to the season, what it kinda proves is that we'll never challenge for big prizes under Wenger.

You previously said we'd never win a trophy under him again :shrug:

(tbh after the Birmingham debacle, I kinda agreed)

[Power n Glory]

The bad start was his fault, he didn't dig us out of a hole in reality as he's the one that put us there in the 1st place. As for the finish to the season, what it kinda proves is that we'll never challenge for big prizes under Wenger because either we'll start well and fall away or start badly and then come good and then fall away again when the finish line is near. We've seen it enough times now to know that's what's going to happen.

Momentum is a big thing in football and teams that fall away or lack motivation in the final furlongs when there's still things to achieve clearly aren't setup to win things.

Our slow start to the season is no coincidence. It comes down to bad preparation. It was a World Cup year and besides the usual stalling on transfers, we only played 4 preseason friendlies. 5 if you count the Community Shield. Just compare that to our rivals.

Arsenal – 4 + 1 (Community Shield)
Chelsea – 10
Man Utd - 6
City - 6 + 1 (Community Shield)
Liverpool – 8

It’s bad enough we go into the season looking wafer thin at CB and up front during a World Cup year. There is no way he could have seen from preseason that Chambers or Sanogo were ready for the league. He didn’t get a good look at Coquelin during the preseason and loaned him out instead. It’s bad preparation and I don’t know what we were doing to be so unprepared. We felt it and struggled through the season as expected.

[Letters]

Wenger definitely deserves criticism for the poor start, but he's responsible for all results good and bad so he should also be given some credit for us picking up.
Ultimately a season should be judged as a whole at the end. If the end result is 3rd and the FA Cup then I think that's a pretty good season overall.
Not one I'd be sacking the manager for, personally.

[Kano]

I don't want anything from people :shrug:

This section is Arsenal debate, I'm giving my views. I understand how people were fed up about things early season when we were playing so poorly, I was very firmly in the "Wenger Out" camp then. Since then my views have softened because of the good run which has seen us finish safely in the top 4 and get to the Cup Final. For me, 3rd and an FA Cup is a good season. Not a great season but after so long without a trophy 2 cups in 2 years would be a nice change. We need to be challenging for the title next year, obviously. It's debatable whether Wenger can do that but IMO this is the best squad he's had for a long time so I'm hopeful. We need to be preparing for his departure either way because of his age but he's a safe enough pair of hands and there's no need to rush it.

You conveniently ignored the rest of my comment, so that line looks completely out of context. Do you think narrowing down an argument to 'wetting yourself' is going to encourage more discussion or the opposite? You can't sit there piously saying everyone else digs only for you to when there is absolutely no need. It's partly why I hardly come on here - probably for may others too - because it's childish. From what I can see you're no different from those you're accusing. Or it's just petulant name calling because others see it completely differently, so you stamp your feet. If someone calls you a cunt then surely that's their opinion and not wumming either. None of this stuff on here means a thing but it's fun to debate football every now and then without well thought out words being trashed as useless. One of your replies to me the other day indicated that this place had died because no-one debated anymore. Well, you're not helping.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger definitely deserves criticism for the poor start, but he's responsible for all results good and bad so he should also be given some credit for us picking up.
Ultimately a season should be judged as a whole at the end. If the end result is 3rd and the FA Cup then I think that's a pretty good season overall.
Not one I'd be sacking the manager for, personally.

What if we don’t win the FA Cup?

We’ve had this season after season. We’re always falling short because he’s not prepared to do what’s necessary to get us to the top. He doesn’t act like a guy that learns from his mistakes or cares about the criticism. It goes back to what was said in another thread yesterday, I don’t know how his ego can take such a poor record against his rivals and going so long without a trophy. It looks like complacency but that makes no sense unless you’re satisfied and comfortable with your position.

[Letters]

You conveniently ignored the rest of my comment, so that line looks completely out of context. Do you think narrowing down an argument to 'wetting yourself' is going to encourage more discussion or the opposite? You can't sit there piously saying everyone else digs only for you to when there is absolutely no need. It's partly why I hardly come on here - probably for may others too - because it's childish. From what I can see you're no different from those you're accusing. Or it's just petulant name calling because others see it completely differently, so you stamp your feet. If someone calls you a cunt then surely that's their opinion and not wumming either. None of this stuff on here means a thing but it's fun to debate football every now and then without well thought out words being trashed as useless. One of your replies to me the other day indicated that this place had died because no-one debated anymore. Well, you're not helping.

I haven't personally abused anyone, I've just said what I think. The pants wetting comment was somewhat flippant but hardly abusive.
Other people who disagree with me have personally abused me - your post has quite an aggressive tone. I'm only being called a WUM, it seems, because my view is an unpopular one on here. I'm perfectly entitled to my view.

[fakeyank]

Of course we should be challenging Chelsea but after 12 games we were 15 points adrift. That is not acceptable, clearly, but Wenger and the players deserve some credit for digging us out of that hole (even though they dug it in the first place)

This.

A few years back, a poster on GW (cant remember who) posted that many Arsenal fans suffer from the battered wife syndrome, and your statement is a reflection of that perfectly. Someone beats the living daylights out of you and then offers you painkillers to soothe your pain.. rather than be unhappy about getting beat up, you thank this great 'humanitarian' because he gave you painkillers.. unbelievable!

He'll do the same thing again next season.. and the season after.. and we will always have someone ready to give up their first born to defend Wenger!

[Xhaka Can’t]

We won 9 games out of 10. We lost one and everyone's wetting themselves. :shrug:

Think about what you said in that post. My view, and I'm sure the view of most here is not formulated by what has been done over the past 10 games. It isn't even formed by our performance over the season as a whole.

My view is governed by the recurring pattern that we see year after year. Quite simply, this club has a losers mentality and a culture where it isn't just acceptable to take the foot off the gas whenever an opportunity presents itself, it is actively encouraged.

[Dein-machine]

Come on everyone - lay off poor old Letters. Sometimes, the Utd game being the last example, when I have picked my brains for an hour trying to find any logic to his comments defending his master & then asked him the simple question of whether or not he had actually watched the game, the answer is often "No". Therefore, we shouldn't really read in to his comments to much as he doesn't watch us very often.
He is ofcourse perfectly entitled to put forward his views, in the same way that Sonogo is entitled to shoot at goal - the end result being very similar - laughable.

[Letters]

A few years back, a poster on GW (cant remember who) posted that many Arsenal fans suffer from the battered wife syndrome, and your statement is a reflection of that perfectly. Someone beats the living daylights out of you and then offers you painkillers to soothe your pain.. rather than be unhappy about getting beat up, you thank this great 'humanitarian' because he gave you painkillers.. unbelievable!

I think it was you.
It was a pretty stupid comparison then, it's an even stupider one now if we do finish the job and retain the Cup.
Try moaning to your Spurs fan mates, if you have any (and shame on you if you do ;) ) about how rubbish things are.
And yes yes, we should have loftier ambitions than them but fans of very few clubs would swap places with us right now.
The 'battered wife' thing is a ridiculous exaggeration of how 'bad' things are.

[Letters]

Other people who disagree with me have personally abused me
Another example from Dein-Machine :shrug:

But yeah, I'm the WUM...

[Niall_Quinn]

Does anyone here have insight into what the wider fan base is feeling as we drift towards the end of another season of under-performing? Obviously 99% of GW (all 3 of us bar Letters) is fed up with it, but I get the impression on a wider scale the majority remain satisfied with Wenger and the team, particularly with Wenger.

I think many of these fans might be confusing a losing mentality with spoilt brat syndrome. Most opposition fans would laugh at us complaining about 3rd place, a cup final and qualification for Europe. Then again, most fans don't support a club with our squad and resources. We should certainly be doing better. When you look at things in terms of loyalty, history, in relation to the majority of other clubs that could explain the satisfaction among fans. In pure sporting terms though, we should be furious. The latter is where I stand. We're feeding off the scraps left behind by the genuinely top clubs and the odd entertaining game every now and then, mostly it's dire, one-paced, pointless shite though. I'm happy to take total commitment to winning and a sensible bias for entertainment over trophies. The latter can't come without the commitment anyway.

This idea of easing off, whether it's actually happening or not, seriously pisses me off. So does the negative shit Wenger has been wheeling out to steer us into the CL cash again.

[Letters]

Think about what you said in that post. My view, and I'm sure the view of most here is not formulated by what has been done over the past 10 games. It isn't even formed by our performance over the season as a whole.

My view is governed by the recurring pattern that we see year after year. Quite simply, this club has a losers mentality and a culture where it isn't just acceptable to take the foot off the gas whenever an opportunity presents itself, it is actively encouraged.

We took our foot off the gas a bit when the title was already gone, top 4 was assured and we had a Cup Final to think about (and not get injured for).
I agree about a recurring pattern but I don't think this is a valid example of it.
You see this sort of thing at every club, even Chelsea apparently who have got the flip flops out now they're champions.
And yes, there's a difference when you're the Champions but do you really care whether we finish 2nd or 3rd?
Obviously the higher than better but I'm more bothered about winning the Cup.
It would be nice to have some momentum going into the final but last year we won our last 5 games - including hammering Hull away - and still nearly made a balls up of the final.

Finish 3rd and win the Cup and overall I'll be content enough with how this season has gone. It could be better, but it could be a lot worse too.

[Niall_Quinn]

We took our foot off the gas a bit when the title was already gone, top 4 was assured and we had a Cup Final to think about (and not get injured for).
I agree about a recurring pattern but I don't think this is a valid example of it.
You see this sort of thing at every club, even Chelsea apparently who have got the flip flops out now they're champions.
And yes, there's a difference when you're the Champions but do you really care whether we finish 2nd or 3rd?
Obviously the higher than better but I'm more bothered about winning the Cup.
It would be nice to have some momentum going into the final but last year we won our last 5 games - including hammering Hull away - and still nearly made a balls up of the final.

Finish 3rd and win the Cup and overall I'll be content enough with how this season has gone. It could be better, but it could be a lot worse too.

You've already said all of that. And there are plenty of responses that highlight each and every of the points you are making as complacency. You can't afford it at the top tier of competitive sport. You'll never be first to the line if you are complacent. So what if "every club" is doing it, all the more reason why we shouldn't be. Make hay. Like the gypos are doing while we have "understandably" eased off as the finishing tape approaches. The cup is icing and it would be a lot nicer on a decent cake rather than a shit sandwich.

If this was the first time it had happened I'd be exceptionally disappointed at our end to the season. But it's not exceptional at all, is it? This is the same old message to be carried into the next season, and the next. Well I hope the gypos and chavs and Utd are as generous in 2016 as they have been this year, otherwise we aren't getting a sniff. Not with our "live with that" attitude.

[Dein-machine]

Somebody mentioned the word "momentum" earlier in either this thread or another. I think it sums of my feelings about where we are with Wenger. When he's won the title before, he has never retained it. Imagine winning the title unbeaten & then not competing the following year, that's a hell of a cock-up. Not understanding that we needed to improve even more because our competitors would do so & then making the same mistake again. The run of wins we had, many of which were pub wins by the odd goal against teams we should be turning 2-0 leads into 5-0 wins, was done through playing inconsistent, poor, unambitious football - taking a lead & trying to hang on.
There has been NO momentum when he has won things, there is NO momentum when we get an early lead in a game, the momentum of a good league run starts to drop as he gets more & more negative in his attacking play when actually attacking football is the only way this team can play. Imagine having Ozil, Sanchez, Santi & Rambo in your team but then ask them to sit back & defend - knocks the momentum out of the team & he's doing it every week.

[Letters]

You've already said all of that.
Aye. As usual we're going round and round in circles. We're not getting anywhere
I'm not sure there's any point pursuing the discussion any further, we just see things differently.

[Power n Glory]

We took our foot off the gas a bit when the title was already gone, top 4 was assured and we had a Cup Final to think about (and not get injured for).


If that were the case, why are we playing the exact same players? Why is an unfit Sanchez playing? Was he injured or unfit for the game? Cazorla may need a rest and the same goes for Giroud. If we’re thinking about the cup, we should be resting players so we don’t pick up any late injuries but the squad selection suggests the opposite. What you’re saying is speculation. How many games in a row has he played this team now?

[Letters]

A lot of what we post on here is speculation but the title had gone, top 4 was assured and we do have a Cup Final to consider.
None of that is speculation and do seem to have taken our foot off the gas.
Not neccessarily consciously, but in the circumstances it's understandable.
I agree Wenger should be rotating more in the run up to the Final btw.

[Dein-machine]

In fairness, if Wenger had rested Sanch & Santi for the Utd game & we had lost - gone on to finish 4th - we would have all been digging him out, saying he did it deliberately to finish in his favourite position. Me being one of them.
Against Sunderland, we should be able to rest Santi ( Sanchez if he is actually injured ), give Jack & Theo a start. We only need a point to guarantee 3rd, hopefully Wumger can't fuck that up against shit like Sunderland.
Get 3rd place then give players a rest for the final game

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Does anyone here have insight into what the wider fan base is feeling as we drift towards the end of another season of under-performing? Obviously 99% of GW (all 3 of us bar Letters) is fed up with it, but I get the impression on a wider scale the majority remain satisfied with Wenger and the team, particularly with Wenger.


From my take of reading various blogs, listening to a lot of Arsenal podcasts, reading twitter is that it's roughly about a third strongly Wenger out, a third strongly Wenger in and the other third in the fickle uncertain middle whose views are shaped by form, results and the general atmosphere around the club. Count me in the latter group. I've had moments where I thought it couldn't go on but other moments where I've genuinely been really optimistic about the future.

At this point in time, I wouldn't really mind seeing Wenger staying but I also wouldn't object to seeing Klopp come in next season. I'm not sure if either would make that much of a net difference.

Regardless of the situation however, we really need to to get the monkey of our back and win the league next season. Despite our excellent form this year (bar last two results) my biggest concern remains our capacity to perform when there's pressure on us and also Wenger's continuing to lose the tactical battles to Mourinho which is why that Chelsea game was such a disappointment despite it being a draw. It's my biggest worry and we may have to pray that everyone else collapses because if it gets into a tight one on one duel with Chelsea going into the final few games, I'm afraid to say that with out mental fragility we've displayed at times under Wenger, my money would always be on Chelsea.

But yeah, GW is pretty strongly anti Wenger compared to a lot of other Arsenal places.

[Power n Glory]

In fairness, if Wenger had rested Sanch & Santi for the Utd game & we had lost - gone on to finish 4th - we would have all been digging him out, saying he did it deliberately to finish in his favourite position. Me being one of them.
Against Sunderland, we should be able to rest Santi ( Sanchez if he is actually injured ), give Jack & Theo a start. We only need a point to guarantee 3rd, hopefully Wumger can't fuck that up against shit like Sunderland.
Get 3rd place then give players a rest for the final game

I agree and I don't think we've purposely taken our foot off the gas or gone out with that message. It's just another non performance from the squad and probably has to do with fatigue and tactics.

[Letters]

Regardless of the situation however, we really need to to get the monkey of our back and win the league next season. Despite our excellent form this year (bar last two results) my biggest concern remains our capacity to perform when there's pressure on us and also Wenger's continuing to lose the tactical battles to Mourinho which is why that Chelsea game was such a disappointment despite it being a draw. It's my biggest worry and we may have to pray that everyone else collapses because if it gets into a tight one on one duel with Chelsea going into the final few games, I'm afraid to say that with out mental fragility we've displayed at times under Wenger, my money would always be on Chelsea.

We do have a long, distressing tradition of folding when the pressure gets to us but I don't think we've done that this year.
We went on a fantastic run to try and put some pressure on Chelsea, we did what we could but ultimately we were too far behind and never put any real pressure on them. We've only dropped off after the title was gone and top 4 was done and dusted.

In the Cup we got that result at Old Trafford and although we were far from convincing in the latter stages last year, or this, we won it last year and we're back in the final this. Win the Final again and it would show we're getting better at handling the big occasion.

[Niall_Quinn]

Be amazed if it's fatigue given the tempo we're playing at and all the standing around we're doing.

[Niall_Quinn]

We do have a long, distressing tradition of folding when the pressure gets to us but I don't think we've done that this year.

We've just done it!

1 point from 6 with the gypos taking 6 from 6. Not difficult to figure out which team handles pressure and which one folds.

[fakeyank]

I think it was you.
It was a pretty stupid comparison then, it's an even stupider one now if we do finish the job and retain the Cup.
Try moaning to your Spurs fan mates, if you have any (and shame on you if you do ;) ) about how rubbish things are.
And yes yes, we should have loftier ambitions than them but fans of very few clubs would swap places with us right now.
The 'battered wife' thing is a ridiculous exaggeration of how 'bad' things are.

It wasnt me.. though I'd like to take credit for it. It is 'bad' when you think about what we are capable of, and what we are happy about. The battered wife syndrome is more aligned to how Wenger pushes us into a ditch every season and then pulls us up.. and we cant stop drooling over what an awesome job he has done.

As for your comment about 'very few clubs would swap places with us right now', I want to be where those clubs are who would not swap places with us.. we have the potential to be where we wouldnt be happy scrapping a top 4 finish but we are just happy with mediocrity. Lets aim higher FFS!! :banghead: #middleclassmentality

[Letters]

We've just done it!

We haven't and you know why,
You define pressure retrospectively based on results after the fact, completely ignoring all the 'must win' games where we did win.

[Letters]

we wouldnt be happy scrapping a top 4 finish

For a start we haven't scraped a top 4 finish in the last 2 seasons, we've been very comfortable in the top 4.
Secondly, if that's all we'd achieved then I agree, that isn't enough year after year. But 2 major Cups in 2 years (if thats what happens) is a bit more like it. The league is where it's at of course, we need to properly challenge next year.

[rodders]

We lose games we should not lose because Arsene is out manoeuvred tactically with alarming regularity. Sorry to say I fear this will happen in Cup Final and in at least in one of our remaining league fixtures

[The Emirates Gallactico]

There was a really good NQ type post on RAWK about why they're suffering right now.



I share your concerns.

Sterling and his agent are knobs. We know that.

But, an introspection into the club doesn't look very good. I was always pretty optimistic about things but the more I think about it, the more I'm worried.

To attract and keep players, you need 4 key things:

1. Money
2. Prestige
3. Top Players
4. Top Manager

Money

We don't spend as much as the "Tier 1" clubs. We may not have the capacity to (at least under FFP rules).

Prestige

We've won one trophy since 2006, been in the CL once since 2009, and haven't won a title since 1990.

Top Players

We no longer have Suarez or Gerrard. We also have lost the likes of Alonso, Mascherano, Reina, Torres, etc over the years.

Top Manager

Rodgers is a young and talented manager but his profile is not one of a top manager (yet).

The question becomes... how are we to compete with the Tier 1 clubs?

For example, Man City may still lack some prestige but they've got a truckload of money, top quality players, and can cycle through top managers. Thus, the likes of Silva and Aguero aren't exactly in a hurry to leave (Silva and Aguero have spent more time at City than Torres or Suarez did at Liverpool). Their two title wins also show the world that they are gaining in prestige and have been successful. Man United, on the other hand, even with Moyes for a year, didn't get hurt in player recruitment or retention as they have the money, prestige, and quality players. Sure they'll get burned with De Gea this summer, but their financial clout, prestige, and managerial recognition will get them pretty far during the summer transfer window.

PSG is similar to City while Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, and Chelsea have all four components in spades. Arsenal's a weird one but is probably below the top tier but above us.

The problem is we seem to be lacking on all four fronts.

We've literally asked Brendan Rodgers, an ambitious and talent yet still and inexperienced young manager, to outduel Jose Mourinho, Manuel Pellegrini (soon to be Carlo Ancelotti maybe), Arsene Wenger, and Louis Van Gaal with a worse squad and less money.

I mean, what are we honestly expecting?

The thought that in 3 years, with Coutinho, Sterling, Can, Henderson, Sakho, Moreno, Markovic, Ibe, Origi, a healthy Sturridge, a couple of new signings, and a more experienced Brendan Rodgers will lead Liverpool to past glories is an idealized romanticized view. The fact is, we've become a stepping stone club. Rodgers could take us to 3rd next season but that may not prevent Coutinho from going to Barca to play with his best mate Neymar and his friend Suarez (oh and Messi), Sterling from leaving, Sakho from partnering Varane at Madrid, etc. Emre Can might love Liverpool and love Rodgers, but when treble winners Bayern Munich come calling, it's curtains for us.

Suarez left us after we got 84 points. Alonso left us after we got 86. Torres left us after we got new owners and the King back. Sterling is 20 (20 FFS!) but he's already got visions of grandeur elsewhere.

I wish football was like the old days but it isn't. It isn't even the supporters becoming more impatient. It's the players. They want it all as soon as possible. Under Shankly, did his top players bang on his door all the time demanding to leave? Even when Liverpool weren't winning trophies? Would a 20-year old Ian Rush do an interview with the BBC demanding Paisley and LFC raise his wages to astronomical amounts? Would Barnes after 2 seasons tell Kenny "sorry boss, Barca/Bayern/Madrid came calling, I'm leaving"? No they wouldn't. They had loyalty and affinity. But they also saw Liverpool as the pinnacle of their careers. The pinnacle of football. We are unfortunately far removed from that. The lack of forward vision in the 90s and 00s did us in.

Is modern football shit? Of course it is. What right does a brat like Sterling have to demand more than £5M a year? He's 20! Yet, it's not the craziest thing is it?

Mario Gotze, before a CL final, decided to move from 2-time Bundesliga winners and CL finalists Dortmund... to their fecking rivals. Before a CL final against said rival. If you didn't laugh, you'd cry at the absurdity. You really would.

Welcome to football 2015. If you're not tier 1, even if you're winning, your players are still being picked away. What was Atletico's award for a La Liga title and a CL final? Bye-bye Diego Costa and Filipe Luis. Dortmund's? Bye-bye Mario Gotze and Robert Lewandowski.

Heck, if football was like this in the 80s, Ferguson would've never succeeded at Man United. If he somehow survived the sack after finishing 11th or after finishing 6 seasons with 1 FA Cup, he still would've lost out on players. What would've happened if Chelsea threw a bunch of money at Steve Bruce? Or if Man City outbid Man United for Keane? Or if Arsenal/PSG/Bayern threw obscene money at Cantona before he joined Man United? Or if Real Madrid and Barcelona were tapping up Ryan Giggs?

It all seems absurd but in modern football, this is actually what you get.

It's shit but you want to be a successful club again, you have to be ambitious and you have to spend. Whether that's players, managers, DOFs, you have to show intent. Players want money, prestige, quality teammates, and quality managers. You're going to have match some of these criteria or be prepared for your top players leaving for greener pastures on a consistent basis.

Sterling is a right little arse but he won't be the last one. It's a fecking shame but it's a reality.

If FFP rules are relaxed, then FSG have got to spend more. You don't need to spend like Man City all the time but you better put in a lot of money if you want a successful club. Otherwise, we'll just challenge for the title once every 5 years (maybe) and then get our best players plucked. If Suarez didn't want to stay after THAT season, what's going to convince another top footballer to stay in the future? Ambition. If you don't want to be a stepping stone, then ambition is your answer.

Yes, it's a pessimistic view from a normally optimistic individual but I'm getting worried about the club. Even if you're not doing a lot of things wrong, you're still getting screwed by modern football.

Welcome to 2015.



Most of that rings true especially about the four factors needed to be a "tier 1" club

I've got to say we're pretty much have three of them locked down (top manager, money and players) now - we've seen that recently with how we've been able to attract Alexis and haven't had any of our top players poached in the recent summer windows ..... which is a long way from a few years ago when we lost the likes of Nasri and Cesc.

The only thing we're suffering from is a drop in prestige due to how long it's been since we won a title which is why is especially important we do it next year just so we can truly claim to be among the elite clubs in the world.

[Niall_Quinn]

We haven't and you know why,
You define pressure retrospectively based on results after the fact, completely ignoring all the 'must win' games where we did win.

No I don't. What I said, at least a couple of weeks back, is the pressure will build game by game during the run-in and each game becomes more important than the last. What you are trying to do is turn 4th place into a trophy and overplay the significance of the FA Cup. You've previously highlighted then spending of the gypos and chavs and used that as a reason why we couldn't compete at the very top. Well we had the jump on the gypos going into the final stretch so we could have finished above them, despite their cash. But we blew it. That's acceptable to you, but you also must accept it is totally unacceptable to some fans. Not because it's a one-off failure to maximise the possibilities but because it's a repeating pattern. You can try to dress it up however you like but the results still stand.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I stopped reading after he suggested Real Madrid might want to buy Sakho, anything he said lost any credibility after that point....the author had already half lost me by describing Brendan Rodgers as a talented manager.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Well yeah it has elements of Liverpool bias (Coutinho to Barca as well) but I don't think it detracts from the bigger point about why it's difficult for "tier 2" clubs to do well.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

To be honest i think we are a tier 1 club in waiting, in that we are waiting for Wenger to get his gold watch and soapy tit wank from the board because we have the foundations in place.

[Niall_Quinn]

Fair points about the shitty players though. Football is rapidly becoming a celebrity thing, moving away from a sport. The quality is dropping with a whole bunch of overpaid, under-skilled farmers being propped up by a handful of genuine talents (Kompany NOT being one of them btw, BBC and Sky). No matter how hyped it all gets the media finds a way to hype it higher. It's like the emperor and his new clothes.

[Globalgunner]

The Battered wife syndrome was me and it still applies
I cant believe any fan starts the season expecting to be satisfied with 3rd or 4th. How is it that every pundit is the league, even shit ones talk abiout what Arsenal should be doing to win the league. They don't say the same thing about Spurs, Everton or even Pool, they are only mentioned in passing (apologies to CIB). We are a team who have traditionally, historically and even in recent seasons competed for titles. we have more than anyone except United and Pool. You get the feeling reading Letters myriad apologies for our failings that we could not win the league for another 10 years and he will hold fast to his "finacially doped teams excuse". Wenger is holding this club back end of.
How is it that we never aspire to win the CL, we cant because we havbe hit the glass ceiling with Wenger in charge. Its nice to be mentioned in the mix but in the last 16 of the CL any team that draws us just has a laugh and orders a bottle of Moet to celebrate progressing to the next round.

The synonym with Battered wives, is the fear of the unknown which Letters exhiits in every comment. The woman is afraid of losing her secure, yet painful existence and possibly falling into the hands of a worse person. Some fans are afraid of not being able to laugh at Spurs anymore, even for a season.
In reality, there is not one of 5 possible managerial candidates out there who wouldnt improve us. We have the team to be playing CL semis and finals, we need only better management, Our football is monotonous and utterly predictable. We have removed the spontaneity of shooting and the spirit of determination that once were our hallmark. How come Pulis can beat Mourinho with 2 crap teams twice in a row, but Wenger cant do it once in a dozen attempts. and before you jump in with some snide remark, Yes i would take Pulis over Wenger right now.

[Letters]

No I don't. What I said, at least a couple of weeks back, is the pressure will build game by game during the run-in and each game becomes more important than the last.
Which is true IF you're involved in a title race till the very death.
While we were in that race we did our bit. When it was over, top 4 was secured and with a Cup Final to consider there probably was as easing off, if only unconsciously. I can live with that.

You seem to be prioritizing finishing above City over the FA Cup, if so then it's you who are making that a 'trophy'. I'd rather have the real trophy, if I had to pick one.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yes i would take Pulis over Wenger right now.

I was agreeing with you until i saw that, i think that comment shows a genuine disparity between what i would call the Wengerskeptics. I myself am a realist, i know he is with us until 2017 and there is nothing that will change that, people like myself acknowledge that it is incredibly unlikely that the romantic notion of Wenger going out on a high with one final title win is just unrealistic, but i still say he is no worse than Van Gaal or Pellegrini....both of them are for me absolute dinosaurs who are tactically deficient. But in order to beat the odds rather than hide behind them, we need someone young and fresh who is willing to delegate, take on new ideas and take risks.
There are those who i'm afraid to say you count as, that with Wenger familiarity breeds contempt that they are so desperate for change that almost anyone will do. Although the groundhog season grates (and yes i agree an FA cup doesn't count as marked improvement) the idea that most managers could have kept us in the top four season in season out is disingenuous and false.
Where i agree with you is that Wenger has hit a glass ceiling, he hasn't the ability to make the leap that changes us from top four to perenial title challengers and eventual title winners, football has changed and he hasn't...and he's very much yesterday's man.
Where i don't agree with you is that a mid table manager like Pulis on the back of one or two positive results against Mourinho would have done better, we can do better than Wenger i don't doubt that we can but anyone or anything is not better.

[Letters]

We are a team who have traditionally, historically and even in recent seasons competed for titles.
Seriously?! Go and read Fever Pitch. That will tell you a bit about the life and expectations of an Arsenal fan back in the day.

Before Wenger we never consistently challenged for the title over a long period of time.
After the period of dominance in the 30s and before Wenger we were champions in 1948, 1953, 1971, 1989 and 1991.
If we expect more these days then that is because of Wenger.

The Financially doped teams is not an 'excuse'. Money and success is clearly very highly correlated in modern football and we had the double whammy of the two billionaire cheats coming to prominence around the same time as we made the stadium move and secured long term financial deals which, while initially looking favourable, as the money spiraled started to restrict our spending. There are three clubs who have greater resources than us and they have divided the title between them every year since we last won it. And Utd only managed to spoil the party of the two clubs fueled by billionaires when Fergie was in change who, IMO, is the GOAT. That last season Utd had no right to win the title.

All that said, we have now repaid a lot of the stadium debt and have new financial deals in place, we are starting to be able to compete more seriously in the transfer market, the signings of Ozil and Sanchez are a level of player we couldn't get before and they have made a difference. I do think we're more able to compete with City and Chelsea and if FFP has any bite (skeptical) then we are very well placed to seriously challenge.

I do agree about the CL though, Wenger's record there is impressive in some ways (always qualifying, always getting to the last 16) and abject in others (rarely getting any further). That is where another manager may be able to push us on.

The reason your analogy doesn't work is where you say it's a "painful" existence. Really? There have been some massively frustrating times in the last two seasons but such is the life of a football fan of any club. Chelsea are champions but their fans must have been embarrassed at their FA Cup defeat. The most frustrating thing about the last 10 years has been the lack of trophies, we were so often the bridesmaid, never the bride. We started to put that right last year, if we retain the Cup then we're continuing to do so.

I wouldn't swap managers with any other club in the PL - I would with Chelsea where Mourinho not such a despicable ****, he's the only manager in the PL I rate more highly than Wenger although honourable mention to Koeman who has done an excellent job.

Finally:


Yes i would take Pulis over Wenger right now.

:haha:

:doh:

[Niall_Quinn]

Which is true IF you're involved in a title race till the very death.
While we were in that race we did our bit. When it was over, top 4 was secured and with a Cup Final to consider there probably was as easing off, if only unconsciously. I can live with that.

You seem to be prioritizing finishing above City over the FA Cup, if so then it's you who are making that a 'trophy'. I'd rather have the real trophy, if I had to pick one.

Where did I say or imply I'm prioritizing 2nd place over the cup? What I have said is 2nd place was in our grasp and, as we always do, we let it slip. We've been doing this for quite a few seasons now, failing to capitalise on our opportunities. If you think finishing above the gypos doesn't mean anything then you fail to grasp the fundamentals of competition. You keep presenting that run of wins as a landmark, then you conveniently conclude tailing off when there was a chance to turn that run into a tangible result is acceptable because we weren't catching the chavs, or we had already qualified for the CL, or there's no difference between second and third. The difference is pushing home the advantage, beating the dopers and finishing the PL on a high so we could take that optimism into next season. Not just next season, by the way, but that FA Cup you seem to believe is so significant. Why not go into that game unbeaten rather than struggling for a bit of form?

There's a lot riding on this cup, your excuses for a start. Wenger's job, not so much. He's here until 2017 when he'll decide if he wants to stay some more. Like you, he's happy with qualifying for the CL, doesn't feel the need to push for the maximum return and is selective when it comes to defining progress and success. The board is happy, the share price is rising, the debts are diminishing, almost everything at the club is in tip-top shape. The only thing we lack now is a desire to win. Shame that, seeing as we are in a competitive sporting environment.

[Globalgunner]

I was agreeing with you until i saw that, i think that comment shows a genuine disparity between what i would call the Wengerskeptics. I myself am a realist, i know he is with us until 2017 and there is nothing that will change that, people like myself acknowledge that it is incredibly unlikely that the romantic notion of Wenger going out on a high with one final title win is just unrealistic, but i still say he is no worse than Van Gaal or Pellegrini....both of them are for me absolute dinosaurs who are tactically deficient. But in order to beat the odds rather than hide behind them, we need someone young and fresh who is willing to delegate, take on new ideas and take risks.
There are those who i'm afraid to say you count as, that with Wenger familiarity breeds contempt that they are so desperate for change that almost anyone will do. Although the groundhog season grates (and yes i agree an FA cup doesn't count as marked improvement) the idea that most managers could have kept us in the top four season in season out is disingenuous and false.
Where i agree with you is that Wenger has hit a glass ceiling, he hasn't the ability to make the leap that changes us from top four to perenial title challengers and eventual title winners, football has changed and he hasn't...and he's very much yesterday's man.
Where i don't agree with you is that a mid table manager like Pulis on the back of one or two positive results against Mourinho would have done better, we can do better than Wenger i don't doubt that we can but anyone or anything is not better.

Good thing i left that comment till last now. maybe the Pulis bit is fanciful, but realistically and analytically. If you examine it, Most teams end up where they're financial clout says they should be. It would take a really crap manager to take us from 4th to 6th or a monumental leap for Spurs or Pool to overtake us. We cannot stay in eternal purgatory waiting for Wenger to relent and say adieu. Is there any guarantee that either he or silent Sam wont agree to let it roll, on beyond 2017. If we only discussed here what is actually possible, we would not discuss anything, At least on these boards we can steer our team beyond the last 16 of the CL and consistently challenging for the league. Wenger should be appreciated for what he has done but he is not the only manager who can do what he has done, or maybe improve us. Even looking at Pulis, he is exactly the kind of manager Arsenal used to hire before Dein went to Japan to select a manager no one had heard of. We may not get the manager we want. Does that mean we stick with what we have in perpetuity.?

[Master Splinter]

I think the genuine suggestions of Pulis and Martinez as improvements over Wenger should result in a purging of this whole thread.

[Globalgunner]

Seriously?! Go and read Fever Pitch. That will tell you a bit about the life and expectations of an Arsenal fan back in the day.

Before Wenger we never consistently challenged for the title over a long period of time.
After the period of dominance in the 30s and before Wenger we were champions in 1948, 1953, 1971, 1989 and 1991.
If we expect more these days then that is because of Wenger.

The Financially doped teams is not an 'excuse'. Money and success is clearly very highly correlated in modern football and we had the double whammy of the two billionaire cheats coming to prominence around the same time as we made the stadium move and secured long term financial deals which, while initially looking favourable, as the money spiraled started to restrict our spending. There are three clubs who have greater resources than us and they have divided the title between them every year since we last won it. And Utd only managed to spoil the party of the two clubs fueled by billionaires when Fergie was in change who, IMO, is the GOAT. That last season Utd had no right to win the title.

All that said, we have now repaid a lot of the stadium debt and have new financial deals in place, we are starting to be able to compete more seriously in the transfer market, the signings of Ozil and Sanchez are a level of player we couldn't get before and they have made a difference. I do think we're more able to compete with City and Chelsea and if FFP has any bite (skeptical) then we are very well placed to seriously challenge.

I do agree about the CL though, Wenger's record there is impressive in some ways (always qualifying, always getting to the last 16) and abject in others (rarely getting any further). That is where another manager may be able to push us on.

The reason your analogy doesn't work is where you say it's a "painful" existence. Really? There have been some massively frustrating times in the last two seasons but such is the life of a football fan of any club. Chelsea are champions but their fans must have been embarrassed at their FA Cup defeat. The most frustrating thing about the last 10 years has been the lack of trophies, we were so often the bridesmaid, never the bride. We started to put that right last year, if we retain the Cup then we're continuing to do so.

I wouldn't swap managers with any other club in the PL - I would with Chelsea where Mourinho not such a despicable ****, he's the only manager in the PL I rate more highly than Wenger although honourable mention to Koeman who has done an excellent job.

Finally:



:haha:

:doh:

No team has dominated the league for a sustained period. Except for SAF, which proves the point that the manager is the most important element of success, then comes money. If SAF was in his 50s today, United would still be dominating even with City and Chelsea riches. Money is not the only arbiter of sucess as Dortmund and Athletico have proven. We are in a painful existence, if thumpings of 6, 8 and being knocked out by the likes of Monaco are not painful i dont know what is. Your devotion is not to Arsenal football club but to seeing Wenger in charge so that your spud colleagues dont laugh at you, a puerile and vain existence.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think it would take a monumental leap for Liverpool or Spurs to overtake us, both teams have had greater spending power than us from 2003 until 2013 (and Liverpool let's not forget finished above us in 2006, 2007, 2009 and last season)....so i repeat to claim that any old manager could have kept us in the top four is for me profoundly flawed.
The point is that the board should be looking within the next six months to make sure someone is in place by the time Wenger contract runs out (Guardiola agreed to take the reigns at Bayern a year before he joined them). If they don't do this than it confirms that we have more to worry about than Wenger.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think the genuine suggestions of Pulis and Martinez as improvements over Wenger should result in a purging of this whole thread.

Depends what kind of purging...if it's purging with fire than i'm all for it. If it's purging in the same way a young girl with bodily dismorphia purges than hmmmm...maybe not

[Xhaka Can’t]

I think the genuine suggestions of Pulis and Martinez as improvements over Wenger should result in a purging of this whole thread.

I doubt they are genuine comments.

[Master Splinter]

Depends what kind of purging...if it's purging with fire than i'm all for it. If it's purging in the same way a young girl with bodily dismorphia purges than hmmmm...maybe not


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp9K4-DHsBA

[Globalgunner]

I don't think it would take a monumental leap for Liverpool or Spurs to overtake us, both teams have had greater spending power than us from 2003 until 2013 (and Liverpool let's not forget finished above us in 2006, 2007, 2009 and last season)....so i repeat to claim that any old manager could have kept us in the top four is for me profoundly flawed.
The point is that the board should be looking within the next six months to make sure someone is in place by the time Wenger contract runs out (Guardiola agreed to take the reigns at Bayern a year before he joined them). If they don't do this than it confirms that we have more to worry about than Wenger.

There is no basis in your claim that Pool and Spuds have more spending power than us. They may have spent more than us but that is because they each sold an 80m player in recent seasons and why we have £200m in the bank while they still need owners to bankroll them, Spending power is the surfeit of income over expenditure and even in the years 2000 til date we have both clubs comfortably licked. They spent a lot of money trying to overtake us and we spent comparatively little keeping ahead. For this Wenger needs to be applauded, taking the next step however is physically beyond him. There we agree

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't know anything about having accquired 200 million accumulatively, we have made a profit each season but that money then gets funneled back into servicing the debts and stadium repayments, day to day costs, players wages etc....and then after all after we had sold a player we usually were in the black.
The stadium naming renegotiation and the new kit sponsorship has brought us an added 80million in revenues a year and that is why we are now in a position to spend.
Liverpool and Spurs have had more to spend despite making less money because they haven't had a stadium to pay for, Liverpool gave up on moving to Stanley Park because they know it would financially cripple them and Spurs are in for a very hard time over the next five-ten years.

[Letters]

Where did I say or imply I'm prioritizing 2nd place over the cup?
You have repeatedly and consistently stressed the importance of 2nd place and repeatedly downplayed the FA Cup. So you haven't said it, but you've certainly implied it.

What I have said is 2nd place was in our grasp and, as we always do, we let it slip.
Yes, we've let the "2nd Place Trophy" slip and the "Finishing Above The Gypos Trophy". I'll cancel the open top bus.
Those aren't real trophies! The importance of a top 4 finish is obvious - it means CL qualification with all the money and prestige that brings. Top 3 is better yet because it means you don't have to go through the qualification stage. Beyond that if you're not going to win the title then it really doesn't matter that much whether you finish 2nd or 3rd.
The 'tangible result' of the good run is automatic CL qualification.

The difference is pushing home the advantage, beating the dopers and finishing the PL on a high so we could take that optimism into next season.
Last year we finished the season with 5 wins in a row and the FA Cup win, it didn't seem to do us that much good going into a new season.
We can finish on a high anyway by winning the last 2 league games and the FA Cup.

There IS a lot riding on the Cup, it's the difference between finishing the season on a high with a trophy in our hands or finishing with a disappointment and failure.


Like you, he's happy with qualifying for the CL
No. Again, if we qualify for the CL AND WIN THE FA CUP then I will deem the season a reasonably successful one.
Clearly I (and Wenger) want us to challenge seriously for the title next year.

[Globalgunner]

No matter how many times it is explained to some people, they prefer the vague notion they have rather than the truth. The stadium debt is no more than £14m a year. It is stated in the yearly accounts and can be accessed easily from the records. £14m non negotiable for I think 30 years. So that is essentially less than 2 Wenger salaries or Diaby, Arteta and Flamini for 1 year, 3 players that had contributed zilch to the club, this year. The stadium has NOT held us back. It seems logical but is not true in fiscal terms.

To help Ive posted the ;ink below from AST
http://arsenaltrust.org/news/latest-news/ast-review-of-arsenals-half-year-finances.

Our problem is bad negotiation, Contrast our stadium with that of Bayern, who built theirs after us and paid it off within 9 years. They could, because they had favourable terms, could dictate to the bankers rather than the other way round. Simply because they are Bayerrn and we are some pokey little club from north London. While Bayern were paying off their loans early they were winning leagues and CL why because winning gives you greater spending power and clout, expands your fanbase. Contrast that with us, living off the glory of the 98-2004 years. We at Arsenal, we think small and remain small. We believe we couldn't move stadium and win anything and so it transpired.

[Letters]

We are in a painful existence, if thumpings of 6, 8 and being knocked out by the likes of Monaco are not painful i dont know what is.
Every club will get setbacks and painful results. Again, read Fever Pitch and remind yourself what it used to be like supporting Arsenal back in the day.

The thumpings were embarrassing, granted. We haven't repeated that this year though, happily.
Monaco was a bad one, I've already agreed Wenger's CL record isn't good enough.
But if we win the Cup that's two major trophies in two years. The real pain post 2004 was the constant lack of trophies which we started to put right last year and I hope will continue to this. There are highs and lows in every season, finish this one by retaining the Cup and I don't think I'll regard this as a particularly painful season.
We do need to start seriously competing for the title, I believe we now have a squad which can do so.

[Xhaka Can’t]

You cannot compare our stadium costs with that of Bayern. For starters their stadium only cost €340m and 1860 Munich had a 50% share which Bayern purchased for €11m. The deal also included allowing 1860 to use it in perpetuity.

I'm sure nobody here would have liked to go down that road with our neighbours.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No matter how many times it is explained to some people, they prefer the vague notion they have rather than the truth. The stadium debt is no more than £14m a year. It is stated in the yearly accounts and can be accessed easily from the records. £14m non negotiable for I think 30 years. So that is essentially less than 2 Wenger salaries or Diaby, Arteta and Flamini for 1 year, 3 players that had contributed zilch to the club, this year. The stadium has NOT held us back. It seems logical but is not true in fiscal terms.

To help Ive posted the ;ink below from AST
http://arsenaltrust.org/news/latest-news/ast-review-of-arsenals-half-year-finances.

Our problem is bad negotiation, Contrast our stadium with that of Bayern, who built theirs after us and paid it off within 9 years. They could, because they had favourable terms, could dictate to the bankers rather than the other way round. Simply because they are Bayerrn and we are some pokey little club from north London. While Bayern were paying off their loans early they were winning leagues and CL why because winning gives you greater spending power and clout, expands your fanbase. Contrast that with us, living off the glory of the 98-2004 years. We at Arsenal, we think small and remain small. We believe we couldn't move stadium and win anything and so it transpired.

Also helps when you have another team bringing in matchday revenue, and the construction is heavily subsidised by the german government to make it a world cup match venue.

[Niall_Quinn]

You have repeatedly and consistently stressed the importance of 2nd place and repeatedly downplayed the FA Cup. So you haven't said it, but you've certainly implied it.

Yes, we've let the "2nd Place Trophy" slip and the "Finishing Above The Gypos Trophy". I'll cancel the open top bus.
Those aren't real trophies! The importance of a top 4 finish is obvious - it means CL qualification with all the money and prestige that brings. Top 3 is better yet because it means you don't have to go through the qualification stage. Beyond that if you're not going to win the title then it really doesn't matter that much whether you finish 2nd or 3rd.
The 'tangible result' of the good run is automatic CL qualification.

Last year we finished the season with 5 wins in a row and the FA Cup win, it didn't seem to do us that much good going into a new season.
We can finish on a high anyway by winning the last 2 league games and the FA Cup.

There IS a lot riding on the Cup, it's the difference between finishing the season on a high with a trophy in our hands or finishing with a disappointment and failure.


No. Again, if we qualify for the CL AND WIN THE FA CUP then I will deem the season a reasonably successful one.
Clearly I (and Wenger) want us to challenge seriously for the title next year.

I can understand why it never occurred to you, but it's not either/ or for me. I wanted both. I prioritise winning, both would be the natural consequence of that. Settling for second best is what prompts the either/ or option. It's hard to argue with somebody who can't understand why it is important to finish above your rivals. I guess if you don't believe that's the case by default then it explains how mediocrity can become acceptable and even commendable. The suggestion of winning is greeted with derision.

It may not matter (much) to an accountant or a well paid manager or overpaid players if the final placing is 2nd or 3rd but it comes as a surprise to learn there are fans out there who can't spot the difference. It's not even that we failed to haul the gypos back, we failed to capitalise on that run of games you view as important by giving up ground. We capitulated. It's a recurring theme under a decade of Wenger. Anyone who says it isn't hasn't been paying the slightest attention.

You are correct, we failed to finish above either the chavs or the gypos last season, a particularly poor Chelsea if you recall. This season we had it in our hands to beat one of them at least. But I guess nobody told the gypos how insignificant playing to the final whistle is. They went and moved 5 points clear of us in the most unnecessary fashion.

More money.
Better players.
Fewer injuries.
A poor city.
A recovering Utd.

Different season. Same shit. These are the facts.

Wenger is unparalleled as a club manager, and demonstrably second tier as a team manager. The record spells this out. The appalling record against the chavs, the embarrassing record against Utd, the pitiful record in the CL. If we want that to ever change then we have to give him a heartfelt thanks for his management of the club but beg him to leave based on his record with the team. It's only the former that has bought him grace with the latter. Any other manager at any other club would be long, long gone.

Qualifying for the CL and winning the FA Cup? We know he can do that. It then becomes a discussion about the club and where we feel we stand in the scheme of things. Is it an achievement to be qualifying for a competition we stand zero chance of winning? Financially, yes. In terms of sport - not at all. Is it an achievement to win a knock out tournament while running behind the league leaders by double digits? Yes, it's an achievement but should it be the limit for a club like ours?

I said at the end of last season give him the second season where he has proper funds and see what he can do. Well he fucked it. So there's the answer. He should go now. He always said he'd leave if he had nothing left to offer. He lied. He won't go and when he fucks it again next season you'll say what you are saying now... next season, next season.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Also helps when you have another team bringing in matchday revenue, and the construction is heavily subsidised by the german government to make it a world cup match venue.

Or that your by far the biggest club in the region and the country so you can hog sponsors and make the cost of stadium naming rights expensive (with Allianz) to help pay for the stadium.

It's a ridiculous comparison tbh.

[Özim]

Every club will get setbacks and painful results. Again, read Fever Pitch and remind yourself what it used to be like supporting Arsenal back in the day.

The thumpings were embarrassing, granted. We haven't repeated that this year though, happily.
Monaco was a bad one, I've already agreed Wenger's CL record isn't good enough.
But if we win the Cup that's two major trophies in two years. The real pain post 2004 was the constant lack of trophies which we started to put right last year and I hope will continue to this. There are highs and lows in every season, finish this one by retaining the Cup and I don't think I'll regard this as a particularly painful season.
We do need to start seriously competing for the title, I believe we now have a squad which can do so.

Funny how the cup has become a "major" trophy now, couple years ago it was viewed it as mickey mouse, how times changes.

It's a trophy no doubt, a major one however, that's an exaggeration.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Used to be a major trophy but like the Uefa cup it's been massively devalued in the last twenty years

[Globalgunner]

Or that your by far the biggest club in the region and the country so you can hog sponsors and make the cost of stadium naming rights expensive (with Allianz) to help pay for the stadium.

It's a ridiculous comparison tbh.

Success breeds success. Bayern Munich make the template of succeeding the template for business. I see no where in the report where government subsidies are included. Do you really think the other teams would have stood for that without going to court.? As ever, make up an alternative reality to substitute for the real one, it helps I guess.

[Globalgunner]

Funny how the cup has become a "major" trophy now, couple years ago it was viewed it as mickey mouse, how times changes.

It's a trophy no doubt, a major one however, that's an exaggeration.

Its a major trophy won by Wigan and Portsmouth recently who were relegated, immediately after. That we have bucked the trend is also an achievement, I guess.

[Power n Glory]

The Bayern Munich stadium comparison is wrong, but we can't ignore the other point about the stadium repayment bill being £14m. For years, there has been speculation about the stadium debt and false information has been peddled by fans who have been misled. It's a convenient excuse and you'd have thought we were on the verge on bankruptcy. But the false information has come from the club or to be more precise, Arsene Wenger.

When Dein left, Wenger took on his job as Chief Exec and he was the spokesperson regarding our finances and he fed the fans so much bad information. Whilst talking about the finances of other clubs, he'd say we couldn't compete and didn't want to bankrupt the club. True, we couldn't compete at that sort of spending level but his statements were so ambiguous and he spent so little we'd all speculate about what sort of budget he was given. We'd spend peanuts in each window. Although PHW would say he had money to spend and he could always knock on the door if he needs help, we'd still speculate about what he was given to spend in each window because he'd come back with so little. It seemed as though we could only afford cheap bargains and young players. We wouldn't dream of going for players like a Torres or Torres.

It's only until Gazidis came on Board and started speaking with the fans that we got any real clarity on the state of our finances. Even before the sponsorship deals he said our repayments were low and we had money to spend. Even when we've sold players he's said the money is available but Wenger wouldn't spend all of it or just squander it. An example would be when we sold Ade to City or when we sold Cesc and Nasri. We didn't even buy a striker the season Ade left and chose to wait for Chamakh on a free the following season. Going for the cheap option rather than take a risk on a bigger player. I'm glad Gazidis came on board to shed light on our finances because it puts the limelight firmly on Wenger's decisions. We didn't have millions to blow like our rivals, but we could have managed our resources better. It made no sense to buy cheap low quality players but to then pay a very decent wage average across the squad so our bill wasn't that far behind our rivals even though the quality of our players were.

It should all be water under the bridge now and we have new sponsorship money but I'm still seeing signs of silly decisions and lame excuses. Going into this season without proper cover for a CB during a World Cup year. He said he couldn't find any in the summer but we somehow find Gabriel in the winter, a period where he always says it's more difficult to find a player. Funny that. Going into the season with Sanogo as our backup striker! Not buying a top striker this season, during last season's winter window when we were leading the league or during the summer when we bought Ozil. Already this season I've heard him say Man Utd are in contact with all of our targets or the players we've been offered and I'm hoping that's not another excuse for inactivity for the coming summer. These are the decisions that cost us. It's great that we signed Ozil and Sanchez but we can push the boat out more. We shouldn't just settled. We need to be ruthless and go out and get what we need to win the title. Henry said it a few weeks back and he's right. We can afford it and even if we overspend a little, it would be worth it considering the battering Wenger's rep has taken. If these are his last few years in charge, it only makes sense to go as hard as possible and try and dominate for a short period.

Sorry for the long post!

[Globalgunner]

You forgot to mention persisting with Almunia for 4 seasons. A sackable offence on its own

[Power n Glory]

That post could certainly be longer if I’d take the time to go through each move and claim. I didn’t even mention the season ticket hike where he said the price increase would help us compete against Chelsea and City. I still don’t understand how a few extra million in gate receipt revenue helps us against clubs with 100s of millions to spend.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Success breeds success. Bayern Munich make the template of succeeding the template for business. I see no where in the report where government subsidies are included. Do you really think the other teams would have stood for that without going to court.? As ever, make up an alternative reality to substitute for the real one, it helps I guess.

Why would they complain a lot of clubs got help in renovating their stadiums for the World Cup including Hannover 96 and Eintracht Frankfurt.
The point is we had to take loaded deals for naming rights etc and now those original deals expired we negotiated much better ones, could we have done better? For sure but as you've been told by many people the Bayern Munich comparison is apples and oranges.
People also seem to forget that the stadium cost was two fold, first off there was the payment for construction costs and now the repayment of the mortgage if you will.
I do agree that Wenger has exaggerated the extent of our impoverishment, we have never been on a thin line but neither did we have the spending power of the clubs we wished to emulate and now with the exception of one or two clubs we do.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That post could certainly be longer if I’d take the time to go through each move and claim. I didn’t even mention the season ticket hike where he said the price increase would help us compete against Chelsea and City. I still don’t understand how a few extra million in gate receipt revenue helps us against clubs with 100s of millions to spend.

Got Enos the great to thank for that shit, man who philosophically believes that if you are a sell out on match days you're not charging enough for tickets. And curiously a club that states it doesn't pay out dividends to share holders gives KSE £3 million for services rendered.
People who cry for the moon for David Dein, just remember you've got him to thank for Kroenke and Usmanov.

[Power n Glory]

Got Enos the great to thank for that shit, man who philosophically believes that if you are a sell out on match days you're not charging enough for tickets. And curiously a club that states it doesn't pay out dividends to share holders gives KSE £3 million for services rendered.
People who cry for the moon for David Dein, just remember you've got him to thank for Kroenke and Usmanov.

They're all sons-a-bitches for that move. That season ticket hike went straight into Stans pocket. Wenger tried to play it off as if the stadium hike was for footballing reasons and keeping us competive, Gazidis keeps trying to convince us that Stan really cares about what happens on the pitch.....it stinks. Enough reason for people to hold off going to games imo if you're feeling the pinch.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I haven't paid for a single game this season, benefited from my brothers season ticket when he has been unable to go. And even then it's often not been enough of a pull.
That said most of the games I've been to have been worth it just for the entertainment value on the pitch, Galatasaray, Dortmund, Newcastle, West Ham and Liverpool.

[Niall_Quinn]

For me the story of Arsenal over the last decade is all about a small group of individuals who leveraged the traditions of the game and found themselves in the right place at the right time when the priority fully shifted from sport to business. These previous shareholders were looking at meagre pocket change investment being transformed into a half billion pay day. The stories we heard about the knife fights as this looting progressed probably only hint at the voraciousness of the pigfest behind the scenes. It must have placed Wenger in a difficult situation. I don't attribute any bad intent to the manager, I think he genuinely loves the club. I don't think we can realistically tarnish him with the same brush that can be rightly used to paint the bastards who are using Arsenal as a personal cash machine, or the ones who undoubtedly intend to do the same in the future.

[Power n Glory]

For me the story of Arsenal over the last decade is all about a small group of individuals who leveraged the traditions of the game and found themselves in the right place at the right time when the priority fully shifted from sport to business. These previous shareholders were looking at meagre pocket change investment being transformed into a half billion pay day. The stories we heard about the knife fights as this looting progressed probably only hint at the voraciousness of the pigfest behind the scenes. It must have placed Wenger in a difficult situation. I don't attribute any bad intent to the manager, I think he genuinely loves the club. I don't think we can realistically tarnish him with the same brush that can be rightly used to paint the bastards who are using Arsenal as a personal cash machine, or the ones who undoubtedly intend to do the same in the future.

I’m not so sure. The business model he preaches and practices benefits the shareholders. That’s why they love him up in the Board room and why he’s able to get away with what’s happening on the pitch because he deliveries the numbers for the Board. He’s a smart guy and it was telling when he went into one of shareholders meetings, (AGM I think) and delivered a snarky jab when they were questioning his managerial decisions. As shareholders, he said something along the lines of ‘they shouldn’t have a thing to complain about because the money was rolling in’. Their interest were being looked after was the message, not realising that they were diehard fans as well. I’m sure he loves the club, but he’s said in the past that his job is to keep the shareholders happy and I suspect he employs certain money saving practices to do so. He’s got job security locked for years because of it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

With the exception of the 3million KSE has received there hadn't been any immediate financial rewards unless Kroenke sells his shareholder ship and there is no indication that he will do this.

[Kano]

It's hard to separate the lack of focus at the start of the season and drop off once top four was sorted. There is always an 'excuse' - injuries, summer tournament, new signings - the likes of which didn't affect the champions, despite them changing the crucial spine of their team. Comparing our end of season with Chelsea is ludicrous given they have nothing more to achieve and can lose nothing. We had second to aim for and third is there still to be lost. Losing momentum as we have is a dangerous game because if we mess up the next two games we'll end up lower. Likely? Probably not but just like starting a game poorly, it becomes a struggle to turn around lack of momentum.

Whether fans like Letters are happy with third is irrelevant because the players objectives and those from above are what drives the club. A lot of them have said they want to finish second, as much also saying beating a top four team is a massive boost. It's obvious finishing above City would boost the squad - if beating them in a single game is seen as positive, then it stands to reason that finishing higher than most of them has a similar effect. I don't see how a convincing argument can be raised suggesting otherwise. City have been classed as having a bad season, yet they would've scored more and still finished above us. That won't transpire again next season, so the reverse effect can be applied to them. Knowing they were under par but still held off an 'improved' Arsenal reminds them how strong they are. It realigns their focus that the changes in the squad do not have to be as dramatic as the press suggested a 6 weeks ago.

Billionaire ‘cheats' or not, it sets an immovable bar of high standards at Chelsea and City (and we’ve got some cheek denigrating those clubs given the corporate approach taken by our club and how distant they are from fans) where second best isn't tolerated, let alone a comfortable, safe third. Again, looking at Atletico and Dortmund as examples, their hungriness to succeed takes some abating on the pitch, an eagerness you can’t always align with ourselves. That’s what a desire to succeed looks like, not easing off at the start of the season and when the minimum has been achieved.

[Letters]

I can understand why it never occurred to you, but it's not either/ or for me. I wanted both.

Wow. Now that is thinking. You should definitely be Arsenal manager, I never thought it would be good to have both.
</sarcasm>

Yes. Obviously. Any Arsenal fan would want both. It's a completely redundant statement. But if I had to pick one...it's a no brainer.
Finishing above our rivals is important, but it's not as important winning a trophy. We should be aspiring to finish above everyone, just wanting to finish above a specific rival is the stuff of Spurs fans.

You keep emphasising winning, finishing 2nd isn't winning, it is, by definition, second best. Only finishing 1st is winning. Only when that was no longer a possibility and with a Cup Final in the back of their minds did some easing off occur. Just as it has with Chelsea when they clinched the title - and they don't have a Cup Final to think about.

The ideal in sport is everyone gives 100% every game, the reality is that never happens. Had the title still been possible then that would not be acceptable, you argue it is never acceptable. Maybe so but the reality is it happens to every team no matter who the manager is. When the title is no longer possible, you have already secured a CL place and all but secured automatic qualification, I can forgive them for it.

Easing off when top 4 is secure and the title is still possible: Not acceptable. Shows the same old priorities and failings
Easing off when top 4 is secure and the title has gone: I can forgive them for that. Especially with the Cup Final in the back of their minds.


Any other manager at any other club would be long, long gone.

In the '8 years without a trophy' period, I agree. No manager at any other club at our level would have kept his job.
The board clearly saw him as a safe pair of hands, perennial top 4 finishes, the money kept rolling in.
And maybe in that era that is what we needed, where he failed in that era was with a few 'near misses' where we should have won trophies and failed to.

The financial deals are there now and we have the money to start seriously competing. The new level of signings which have resulted have made a difference.
The Cup win last year was a nice relief after so many barren years. It gave us hope for this season and I agree that the start of the season was a massive balls up. But some credit where it's due for them picking up, 3rd and the Cup wouldn't be a disaster of a season. Could have been better, after 12 games it could have been a lot worse.


I said at the end of last season give him the second season where he has proper funds and see what he can do. Well he fucked it. So there's the answer.

I don't agree that's 'the answer'. Any manager at any club will have good and bad seasons for all kinds of reasons. As discussed earlier in this thread, Klopp is having a bad one at Dortmund. Far worse than us. That doesn't make him a bad manager. This season...well, a lot is riding on the FA Cup Final.
Generally, as a club, I feel we're going in the right direction. We're signing a higher quality of players, we're winning trophies again, we put a sustained run together this year which, if we manage to do it over a season, would win us the league or see us go very close. It's debatable whether Wenger is the right man to push us on now but neither Chelsea or City won titles immediately after winning the lottery, Chelsea finished 4th when Abramovic bought them, it took them a couple of years to cheat their way to the top and they spent a lot more money than we have (may not be true, but relative to the transfer market at the time I suspect it is).

[Letters]

Used to be a major trophy but like the Uefa cup it's been massively devalued in the last twenty years

Has been devalued, certainly.
Never been considered 'Mickey Mouse' though.

[Letters]

Its a major trophy won by Wigan and Portsmouth recently who were relegated, immediately after. That we have bucked the trend is also an achievement, I guess.

Wow :lol:
And people accuse me of twisting stats.

Well done, you picked the two seasons since the PL began over 20 years ago when anyone other than a 'big' team won it.
Portsmouth won it in a freak season when all the big boys got knocked out and they played Cardiff in the final.
Wigan were playing Man City, clearly City were big favourites and it was a shock result.
Every other year it's been one of the big boys.

[Niall_Quinn]

With the exception of the 3million KSE has received there hadn't been any immediate financial rewards unless Kroenke sells his shareholder ship and there is no indication that he will do this.

Well he will at some stage or what's the point? He's not in it for the love of the game. People like Kroenke bet on sure things. You and I take a punt and are subject to market forces. He will already know what's going to happen in the market. The increased TV deal didn't get decided overnight, for example. These things are announced only once the key figures are happy with their cut. The change in FFP rules, that would have been known well in advance. Kroneke is an investor (in the real sense as opposed to the types at Utd), his aim is to make a profit on his relationship with Arsenal and seeing as he's kicked half a billion into the pot I doubt he's going to wait around to watch it trickle back over the long term. Usmanov is next in line, then the Nigerian guy I suppose. Plenty of room at the trough provided the game doesn't collapse under the weight of the bullshit.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Success breeds success. Bayern Munich make the template of succeeding the template for business. I see no where in the report where government subsidies are included. Do you really think the other teams would have stood for that without going to court.? As ever, make up an alternative reality to substitute for the real one, it helps I guess.
There is plenty to be critical of and we are pretty much on the same page. However the stadium comparison is immaterial to this discussion because there is no legitimate comparison to be made as illustrated by earlier posts here and in past discussions from years ago.

The most cursory research will also demonstrate that.

[Kano]

Wenger "Finishing second means you are better than 18 teams, who doesn't want that?...That's a competitive attitude...the end of a season is linked to belief of next seasons start".

Ramsey "Finishing second is probably progression".

Added to similar comments from Merts, Wilshere, Paulista, Sanchez and Cazorla it's clear what the belief is from the players.

Have the players purposely slacked off with the final ahead or top four secured? One win in four games seems to contradict those statements at the top. Words are one thing but breaking a decade long habit - with the same man still overseeing things - is an incredibly hard thing to achieve. Best intentions aren't always enough to fix a situation or change its direction. Most of the players at our club probably feel like they've already made it, playing for a big club like ours on mega wages. A lot have been plucked from smaller teams. We have a very comfortable 'home' where Wenger is rarely in a hurry to ditch a player. Naming an unchanged team even after we stopped winning sends a message of safety for players. Ferguson went 99 games or something ridiculous naming changed teams because he got that not only do you have to keep players fresh but they have to be kept on their toes.

If those statements at the top are to be taken at face value then the squad has been mismanaged to the point of failing to achieve the goal of second. If we are to look at the performances as 'slacking off' rather than lack of ability, then it also points to a similar managerial and motivational issue. Either way I think there is a problem to be examined inbetween the goal set and what was achieved. One thing is for certain, players at our club like ours don't start off a season aiming to win the FA Cup. That is only a bonus. A decoration. Nothing more and not really remembered after the career is done alongside the more celebrated trophies.

[Marc Overmars]

2nd, 3rd, 4th - meh.

Well 4th would be annoying but 2nd or 3rd I'm not really arsed. We will accumulate less points than last year but probably finish higher this year, league positions and points tallies need to be put into perspective. We have stagnated, as far as I'm concerned the only barometer that needs to be looked at is where we are in terms of challenging for the league and sadly we were nowhere near, again. This was the year for us to gain some credibility as challengers, we have the squad but unfortunately a manager who just can't seem to give his team those marginal gains needed.

All I can say is just win the cup, don't even dare to screw it up WUMger.

[Globalgunner]

There is plenty to be critical of and we are pretty much on the same page. However the stadium comparison is immaterial to this discussion because there is no legitimate comparison to be made as illustrated by earlier posts here and in past discussions from years ago.

The most cursory research will also demonstrate that.

Tha`ts probably why the same comparison was made in a national daily and came to the same conclusion that ours was a lousy deal

[Xhaka Can’t]

Tha`ts probably why the same comparison was made in a national daily and came to the same conclusion that ours was a lousy deal

Seriously, give it up. You blew it with that comparison. For starters, a major infrastructure project in London bears no comparison at all with the same in Munich. Secondly, there were two teams involved in that project: the equivalent of us and Spurs being joint partners.

Subsequent to project completion, one of the partners went bankrupt so the other took advantage and bought the remaining half for buttons.

Additionally, there was circa 40% public money used to fund the project in Munich whereas Arsenal had to contribute to public infrastructure in order to secure planning permission.


If you persist in making a comparison between construction and management if those two projects, you're off your head.

A valid comparison would be with the new Wembley stadium project.

[Power n Glory]

Are we still saying we’re playing with the handbrakes on because it certainly didn’t look that way yesterday. I think this is the usual post defeat slump we often see where one defeat often results in us losing our swagger. Now it’s looking like we can’t afford to rest players in the last game because our form looks really bad for the final.

[Özim]

Are we still saying we’re playing with the handbrakes on because it certainly didn’t look that way yesterday. I think this is the usual post defeat slump we often see where one defeat often results in us losing our swagger. Now it’s looking like we can’t afford to rest players in the last game because our form looks really bad for the final.

As someone else said, we have a nice little run going until we get top 4 and then we sit back and pat ourselves on the back telling ourselves how well we've done winning another major trophy. That's the mentality we've had for 10 years now and that's why we'll never challenge the big boys, winners don't accept 2nd best, sadly we do.

The clubs' ambition is to qualify for the CL, the rest they just don't seem interested in.

[Letters]

They only slacked off when the title was no longer possible...
But we could do with a win in our last game to give us a bit of a boost before the Final.
That said it's debatable how much difference it makes, last year we finished the season with 5 wins in a row (including thumping Hull away). Hull only got 1 point out of 15 in their last 5 games and we still ended up being 2-0 down after 10 minutes.

[Bumble]

They only slacked off when the title was no longer possible...
But we could do with a win in our last game to give us a bit of a boost before the Final.
That said it's debatable how much difference it makes, last year we finished the season with 5 wins in a row (including thumping Hull away). Hull only got 1 point out of 15 in their last 5 games and we still ended up being 2-0 down after 10 minutes.
I believe form goes out the window, its a one off game. A cup final. a game of two halves. he's not that sort of player. etc

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's a simple proposistion of simply not scoring goals, four goals in the past five league matches.

The tactical argument isn't of such importance, we had enough efforts on goal to win the games against Swansea and Sunderland (the results which would see us in second instead of third), we persist with a striker we all know is not good enough and is in horrendous form because we have no other striking options and because our midfielders like Cazorla and Ozil aren't chipping in enough with goals.
It doesn't really matter about how deep Swansea and Sunderland played, because we were able to create chances but not put them away, collectively 16 shots on target in both games which is enough both games with plenty to spare.

[Power n Glory]

It's a simple proposistion of simply not scoring goals, four goals in the past five league matches.

The tactical argument isn't of such importance, we had enough efforts on goal to win the games against Swansea and Sunderland (the results which would see us in second instead of third), we persist with a striker we all know is not good enough and is in horrendous form because we have no other striking options and because our midfielders like Cazorla and Ozil aren't chipping in enough with goals.
It doesn't really matter about how deep Swansea and Sunderland played, because we were able to create chances but not put them away, collectively 16 shots on target in both games which is enough both games with plenty to spare.

We created plenty of chances but I think we've seen plenty of games like this and it's the byproduct of Wenerball. The more efficient we become at moving the ball, the more compact we get and more dominant we become on the possession side. It forces teams back and we get these games where we have goal mouth scrambles and or just shot block after block and pass after pass.

It's funny because when this team were less confident on attack, we'd get those more clear cut chances where we're hitting teams on the counter. Plus we'd be more organised on defence but yesterday we looked very vulnerable and we're lucky not to concede. It's a style that leads to nowhere and we've seen it before under the Cesc era. We restrict our own space but offer acres to our opponents. It's made worse when we're selecting CM's to play wide.

[Niall_Quinn]

We could do with a manager who doesn't need 3-4 games of the same failings to make a change. Somebody who has more than one tactical card in his hand. Somebody who gets off his seat during a game and shouts "Stay on the fucking touchline you cunt!"

[Kano]

They only slacked off when the title was no longer possible...
But we could do with a win in our last game to give us a bit of a boost before the Final.
That said it's debatable how much difference it makes, last year we finished the season with 5 wins in a row (including thumping Hull away). Hull only got 1 point out of 15 in their last 5 games and we still ended up being 2-0 down after 10 minutes.

10 points away from chelsea the day before we play them. a win would take us 7 away. wenger was talking up catching chelsea.

they were unbeaten since new years day, so probably also due a defeat.

in the players eyes they should be thinking let’s give it all we have and see what happens. that certainly didn’t happen in the chelsea game.

[Niall_Quinn]

Even if the players thought they were playing for the cup final place, but we know that's not the case. The run in has been a disgrace, but that's okay because it doesn't matter how we perform provided we have the next CL cash stream secured.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We created plenty of chances but I think we've seen plenty of games like this and it's the byproduct of Wenerball. The more efficient we become at moving the ball, the more compact we get and more dominant we become on the possession side. It forces teams back and we get these games where we have goal mouth scrambles and or just shot block after block and pass after pass.

It's funny because when this team were less confident on attack, we'd get those more clear cut chances where we're hitting teams on the counter. Plus we'd be more organised on defence but yesterday we looked very vulnerable and we're lucky not to concede. It's a style that leads to nowhere and we've seen it before under the Cesc era. We restrict our own space but offer acres to our opponents. It's made worse when we're selecting CM's to play wide.


Whilst as a whole I don't in anyway disagree with you, the fact still remains that bad tactics or not we'd still have won both those games with a better striker than Giroud.
If we played with more pace wide (the amount of space on the flanks yesterday was unbelievable) and got in behind the defence more we'd have created double the chances we did against Swansea and Sunderland, but still though we created enough chances in both games for better finishers to stick it away.

[Letters]

10 points away from chelsea the day before we play them. a win would take us 7 away. wenger was talking up catching chelsea.

they were unbeaten since new years day, so probably also due a defeat.

in the players eyes they should be thinking let’s give it all we have and see what happens. that certainly didn’t happen in the chelsea game.

Of course Wenger would be talking up the chance of catching them but they are masters at bus parking. They're very hard to beat when they put their mind to it. They haven't lost a big game all season, home or away.

Even if we had beaten them we'd have had to make up 7 points in 5 games. Given their record this season it would have been a pretty spectacular collapse for us to have overtaken them. We needed them to drop some points before they played us really.

[Power n Glory]

Whilst as a whole I don't in anyway disagree with you, the fact still remains that bad tactics or not we'd still have won both those games with a better striker than Giroud.
If we played with more pace wide (the amount of space on the flanks yesterday was unbelievable) and got in behind the defence more we'd have created double the chances we did against Swansea and Sunderland, but still though we created enough chances in both games for better finishers to stick it away.

True. We need a better striker upfront but if the opponents had better strikers, we could have lost yesterday. It just goes back to the age old problem we keep having under Wenger. Will he adjust his tactics to accommodate players like Giroud or will he go out and buy better players. I still think the tactical side is relevant when we’re not making use of the flanks and the manager has a CM playing wide instead of Walcott.

Must say, that’s the first time in ages I’ve seen Theo mix his game up a little, hug the touchline and take on players. Promising but maybe a little too late if he’s on his way out.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

True but I still think being caught on the break is only an issue when you're chasing a game, Sunderland created chances to score in the second half where by all rights and with a decent striker we'd have been ahead and not pushing forward as much to be caught out.
Will a better striker solve all our problems? No of course not or City would have won the title this season as they have for me the leagues best striker in Aguero.
Clearly there are massive tactical deficiencies that don't seem to improve, as well as for me a squad that is still rather unbalanced, I think if it was just purely the fact that Walcott seems to be leaving us he wouldn't even be getting game time from the bench....I think half of the consideration is that he thinks Walcott will leave too much space on our right flank which he doesn't trust Bellerin to cover.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying he's right, but that appears to be his thinking.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

My concern is still why injuries that should keep a player out for a few weeks keeps them out for months, what has happened to the Ox two and a half months after coming off against United?.

[Power n Glory]

True but I still think being caught on the break is only an issue when you're chasing a game, Sunderland created chances to score in the second half where by all rights and with a decent striker we'd have been ahead and not pushing forward as much to be caught out.
Will a better striker solve all our problems? No of course not or City would have won the title this season as they have for me the leagues best striker in Aguero.
Clearly there are massive tactical deficiencies that don't seem to improve, as well as for me a squad that is still rather unbalanced, I think if it was just purely the fact that Walcott seems to be leaving us he wouldn't even be getting game time from the bench....I think half of the consideration is that he thinks Walcott will leave too much space on our right flank which he doesn't trust Bellerin to cover.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying he's right, but that appears to be his thinking.

The Walcott decision is purely down to the contract talks and petty. He had no problem playing Walcott along with Jenkinson who was totally out of his depth so I’m not sure why he wouldn’t play Walcott with Bellerin. Also, it makes even less sense to play central players that drift too close to the centre and neglect everything down that side. I don’t think it’s tactical, it’s just petty. Wenger has a history of dropping players that are in the middle of contract disputes if he has a player to cover.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Not sure I agree, whilst I agree Wenger can be quite petty minded with players I also think he'd drop Walcott even from the bench if that was the whole story, he started a game back in March and stunk the place out so there's a consideration there. Plus he has a history of shoe horning what he considers his best players into positions to fit the formation he chooses to play.
Would Walcott have started more games had he signed a new deal? I tend to think so but I think Wenger genuinely (mistakenly) believes Ramsey is the better option there.

[Power n Glory]

Not sure I agree, whilst I agree Wenger can be quite petty minded with players I also think he'd drop Walcott even from the bench if that was the whole story, he started a game back in March and stunk the place out so there's a consideration there. Plus he has a history of shoe horning what he considers his best players into positions to fit the formation he chooses to play.
Would Walcott have started more games had he signed a new deal? I tend to think so but I think Wenger genuinely (mistakenly) believes Ramsey is the better option there.

You may have answered your own question.

Also, going back to this point, why would Wenger not trust Theo with Bellerin, but trust him with Jenkinson?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Because although Jenkinson was no better than Bellerin I think he was less inclined to bomb forward and leave his flank exposed.
To be fair I've never stated that the protracted contract negotiations weren't a factor, but I also don't believe they are the only consideration.
Wenger has played up to the match last night what he considers his best players 1-11 and would rather shoe horn them in to an ill fitting formation where someone plays out of position than drop someone.

[Power n Glory]

That Jenkinson part is highly debatable. Jenks was a shaky defender and the best part of his game was his crossing. Plus playing Ramsey or Wilshere on the wing leaves us even more exposed in some cases because they're more inclined to attack and drift to the centre.

I agree about Wenger shoehorning his best 11 but that kinda goes out the window when Welbeck is getting games over Theo along with Wilshere on the flank whose been out of form in the middle and hasn't been good on the wing since he was a teen.

[AFC Leveller]

We will finish the season with fewer points and further off the top than last season. This, for me anyway, proves that finishing 3rd or 4th is irrelevant if we are going backwards.

[AFC Leveller]

Because although Jenkinson was no better than Bellerin I think he was less inclined to bomb forward and leave his flank exposed.
To be fair I've never stated that the protracted contract negotiations weren't a factor, but I also don't believe they are the only consideration.
Wenger has played up to the match last night what he considers his best players 1-11 and would rather shoe horn them in to an ill fitting formation where someone plays out of position than drop someone.

I think wenger likes to play the "possession players" and would sacrifice a proper winger and goal threat (theo) to make sure his team has more possession than the other team

Theo is a goal threat, offers us pace and keeps the opposition LB in check. However. One of his weaknesses is that he tends to give the ball away and not participate in the attack building as well as leave the RB exposed.

[Ollie the Optimist]

as much as he drives us mad, lets face it that there is no greater sight in football then a happy arsene wenger celebrating arsenal winning a trophy