Wenger Referendum II - And this time it's personal

[Letters]

Well...what do you think now then?

I've added a 3rd option, are there conditions for the end of this season which you'd set in order for you to be happy for him to stay on?

[Niall_Quinn]

He wins the title or the CL and we do either playing quality football. FA Cup not good enough for me. It's about consistency against the best and you don't measure that by the FA Cup. I think we should already be winning this title. I think we have a better squad than the chavs and I think we've chucked away the points that separate us from top spot.

[Marc Overmars]

A patch of good form isn't going to change my opinion because we all know we're a good side with good players, but winning at Old Trafford has at least made me consider the mentality may have strengthened. We've been here before though, encouraging signs then think hmm maybe 1 more season, only to see Wenger shoot himself in the foot with glaring oversights.

We need to be challenging for the league (and improve in Europe) for my opinion to really change, however retaining the cup would represent a successful season and I'd be happy for him to stay on.

It's all academic anyway, we know he's here for as long as he wants to be. I think it's best that we just try to enjoy the ride now. :scarf:

[Letters]

We have been here before - way too many times - but there are a few things (winning the Cup, signing players of the calibre of Ozil and Sanchez, winning at OT) which maybe, just maybe, indicate this is more than just another false dawn.

[Letters]

He wins the title or the CL and we do either playing quality football. FA Cup not good enough for me. It's about consistency against the best and you don't measure that by the FA Cup. I think we should already be winning this title. I think we have a better squad than the chavs and I think we've chucked away the points that separate us from top spot.
I don't think that's a reasonable target for this season - we are where we are and winning the title is extremely unlikely this year unless Chelsea seriously implode. The CL too is beyond us, even if we do salvage the Monaco tie we'd then be facing teams like Bayern or Barca who we're unlikely to beat and failing to is no basis for sacking a manger. The issue is are we progressing to the extent that we can win the league (or certainly challenge right to the end) next season. Right now it looks like it, but we have been here too many times before. I have suggested a few reasons why this may be different.

[GP]

New 5 year contract pls

[Zerlathon]

Perhaps I'm being a little too forgiving, but finishing 3rd (or above) and retaining the FA Cup is enough for me. Having said that, even if he fails then I believe he should stay on.

The thing is, as much as I disagree with some of the actions that Wenger takes, I cannot think of a Manager who would be available that would bring us to the next level and compete on a regular basis.

Take a look at last season when we are (arguably) at our lowest moral-wise, alot of people (including myself) were calling for Wenger to resign on the pretence that we could bring in someone like Martinez or Klopp (as these were the most achievable targets as replacements). Some months on and look at those Managers now (compared to last season's finish).

Everton 14th (-9 places)
Dortmund 10th (-8 places)

We've seen what can happen selecting the wrong Manager (see Man U), and I wouldn't be overly surprised if we suffer the same fate if Wenger goes as a knee jerk reaction to people's frustration.

Therefore, unless a Manager whom has shown that they can compete on a regular basis becomes available, then I believe keeping Wenger is the best choice.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think that's a reasonable target for this season - we are where we are and winning the title is extremely unlikely this year unless Chelsea seriously implode. The CL too is beyond us, even if we do salvage the Monaco tie we'd then be facing teams like Bayern or Barca who we're unlikely to beat and failing to is no basis for sacking a manger. The issue is are we progressing to the extent that we can win the league (or certainly challenge right to the end) next season. Right now it looks like it, but we have been here too many times before. I have suggested a few reasons why this may be different.

It's a reasonable target over 10 seasons though and we should be aiming for and expect to win both the title and the CL. That should be the MINIMUM expectation at all times and it's entirely reasonable for a club with Arsenal's resources to effectively challenge for both. From the board through the manager the players and the fans, total victory across the spectrum is the goal at all times. Every loss is a failure and there are no excuses ever.

Above is a winning mentality.

"I don't think it's reasonable...", "I'd settle for...", "We can't expect to...", "Finishing 2nd would be an achievement...", "Better the devil you know...", these are all the loser's mentality. The moment you preface a challenge with any of these qualifiers you have lost.

You asked the question, I'm giving you an Olympic champion's, world heavyweight champion's, world cup winner's response. For people who get paid an obscene fortune every week to do what they love there are two ways to go, take those gifts and give back every ounce of effort in achieving all that can be achieved or be complacent and take without giving back.

In sport you can fail. Most do. But if you fail without expecting to succeed then your mentality is shit. If you fail having given every last drop of effort then that's an acceptable platform on which to try again. That's progress. Anything else is unacceptable. This isn't a charity or a hobby or a part time job, it's the pinnacle of professional sport. So I'll stick with requiring the title or the CL because I ASSUME the manager thinks the same way and will act accordingly. If that's not the case then of course he shouldn't be the manager.

[Marc Overmars]

It's a reasonable target over 10 seasons though and we should be aiming for and expect to win both the title and the CL. That should be the MINIMUM expectation at all times and it's entirely reasonable for a club with Arsenal's resources to effectively challenge for both. From the board through the manager the players and the fans, total victory across the spectrum is the goal at all times. Every loss is a failure and there are no excuses ever.

Above is a winning mentality.

"I don't think it's reasonable...", "I'd settle for...", "We can't expect to...", "Finishing 2nd would be an achievement...", "Better the devil you know...", these are all the loser's mentality. The moment you preface a challenge with any of these qualifiers you have lost.

You asked the question, I'm giving you an Olympic champion's, world heavyweight champion's, world cup winner's response. For people who get paid an obscene fortune every week to do what they love there are two ways to go, take those gifts and give back every ounce of effort in achieving all that can be achieved or be complacent and take without giving back.

In sport you can fail. Most do. But if you fail without expecting to succeed then your mentality is shit. If you fail having given every last drop of effort then that's an acceptable platform on which to try again. That's progress. Anything else is unacceptable. This isn't a charity or a hobby or a part time job, it's the pinnacle of professional sport. So I'll stick with requiring the title or the CL because I ASSUME the manager thinks the same way and will act accordingly. If that's not the case then of course he shouldn't be the manager.

Beautiful post, tbf.

[Letters]

It's a reasonable target over 10 seasons though and we should be aiming for and expect to win both the title and the CL. That should be the MINIMUM expectation at all times and it's entirely reasonable for a club with Arsenal's resources to effectively challenge for both. From the board through the manager the players and the fans, total victory across the spectrum is the goal at all times. Every loss is a failure and there are no excuses ever.
Above is a winning mentality.

Agreed. I think we can all agree that Wenger has failed, to some extent, over the last 10 years. But he wasn't sacked for it so there's no point in dwelling on that. The question is whether he is now the right man to lead us forward. If he isn't and if there is someone out there who is and we could actually employ then he should be sacked. There is no point in sacking him if there is no plan as to who to replace him with. There is also of course no point in keeping him just because we're scared that the next bloke might do worse. But let's not 'do a Spurs' and sack our manager with no real plan as to what to do next.


"I don't think it's reasonable...", "I'd settle for...", "We can't expect to...", "Finishing 2nd would be an achievement...", "Better the devil you know...", these are all the loser's mentality. The moment you preface a challenge with any of these qualifiers you have lost.

At the start of the season, I agree. Right now, not so much.
While it's mathematically possible for us to win the league I expect us to do everything we can to try, but we have to be realistic. We're 7 points behind with 9 games left - and the team currently top have a game in hand over us - we could win every game and still not win the title. That would be no basis for sacking our manager. Doing so would not be the actions of a 'winner', they would be the actions of a toddler (yes, Abramovic, I am looking at you).

We're on a good run right now, the sort of run that had it been sustained over a season would have won us the title. But we've been here before, far too many times. The big question is are things different now? Are we heading in a direction where next season we can seriously challenge - properly challenge all season. Or this is yet another false dawn and the fundamental problems remain? I have suggested a few signs (the new level of signings, the FA Cup win, the two results in Manchester - particularly in the FA Cup last week) which may suggest that the times they are a-changing. If they are then IMO this would be a terrible time to change manager.

[selassie]

It's a reasonable target over 10 seasons though and we should be aiming for and expect to win both the title and the CL. That should be the MINIMUM expectation at all times and it's entirely reasonable for a club with Arsenal's resources to effectively challenge for both. From the board through the manager the players and the fans, total victory across the spectrum is the goal at all times. Every loss is a failure and there are no excuses ever.

Above is a winning mentality.

"I don't think it's reasonable...", "I'd settle for...", "We can't expect to...", "Finishing 2nd would be an achievement...", "Better the devil you know...", these are all the loser's mentality. The moment you preface a challenge with any of these qualifiers you have lost.

You asked the question, I'm giving you an Olympic champion's, world heavyweight champion's, world cup winner's response. For people who get paid an obscene fortune every week to do what they love there are two ways to go, take those gifts and give back every ounce of effort in achieving all that can be achieved or be complacent and take without giving back.

In sport you can fail. Most do. But if you fail without expecting to succeed then your mentality is shit. If you fail having given every last drop of effort then that's an acceptable platform on which to try again. That's progress. Anything else is unacceptable. This isn't a charity or a hobby or a part time job, it's the pinnacle of professional sport. So I'll stick with requiring the title or the CL because I ASSUME the manager thinks the same way and will act accordingly. If that's not the case then of course he shouldn't be the manager.

:gp:

[Niall_Quinn]

The question was stay or go. Not sacked. I'm totally against him being sacked under any circumstances short of changing the kit to blue and white. I'd hope any transition was handled quietly behind the scenes with Wenger coming to some agreement on targets and performance and a voluntary departure date should those targets not be met. Trouble is, ask this board for a target and they'll tell you 5% per annum on the share value - OR ELSE! Another trouble is, ask the board anything and they'll tell you to ask Wenger. But I think he'll know when the time is right. Hopefully it will be on a high and not a low.

[selassie]

Well...what do you think now then?

I've added a 3rd option, are there conditions for the end of this season which you'd set in order for you to be happy for him to stay on?

I want him gone regardless. The damage was done in the summer, if he would have recruited properly we would be properly challenging for the title IMO.

[Bumble]

I think 3rd and FA Cup is a good return. Especially if we are around 6 points from top. I know people think we should be winning the CL but since 2000 the winners have been United, Barca, Milan, Inter, Real, Chavs, Bayern, Liverpool and Porto. Bayern, United, Liverpool, Real, Milan and Barca are all bigger clubs with a larger European pedigree. The year we should have won it though we screwed up against Chelsea, Porto won it and Mourinho laughed all the way to the bank and the chavs.

I know we complain when we lose that its points thrown away but all teams do it really. Both Chelsea and City would complain about throwing points away this weekend. So no teams go the season without losing..... oh no wait... nearly no teams ;)

I do think its a big step for us to win the league, I still don't think we know how to chase a game as I cant recall us winning this season after going behind. And sometimes you do concede first and still need to pick up the points.

[Dein-machine]

If you look at the Barca situation, they are still competing at the top of their league & the C.L. with a manager who has he doubters. But with the players they have, the teams they regularly play I would suggest that Nigel Pearson would be getting similar results if he was their manager. How much more can you teach the likes of Messi etc. Put quality players into a system where they have quality replacements & you get continuity.
We regularly win the 4th place trophy because we have continuity through our manager & the way he tries to play but again could Nigel Pearson be getting similar results with our squad & spending power.
If we actually want to challenge we need the continuity that we have to be broken & this can only be with a new manager.
There is not a job in the world where you are better at 65 than when you were 50. We need a younger guy in who has learnt his trade during the period that billionaires have ruined our game. Having money ofcourse is a major benefit but you can only have 11 players on the pitch. A manager that will pay for transfer fees ( within reason ) without arguing over a few million quid when he thinks we need that type of player is essential. Wenger seems to never want to give in to anyone & we have missed out on a lot of players because of his penny pinching. Ozil & Sanchez are quality players but we have badly neglected key areas in defence, DM & prolific striker for too many years now - even when we have had the money.

[Letters]

There is not a job in the world where you are better at 65 than when you were 50.
Shopping mall Santa? :unsure:

[sibreen]

Second place (or third) and another big signing, please.
FA cup would be nice, but it's more random--and so less of a performance indicator--than league position, I think.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

I'd only want him to go if a Klopp, Simeone or Pep became available.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

There's no option on there that I can tick
Should be an option for

- It's completely academic because Wenger will be here until 2017 (and probably beyond that) whatever I think.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Before Christmas the idea of him being here till the end of the season let alone two more after that was too much to bare, but he's kind of done what he always does and that's steer the ship just enough away from the cliff that we don't run aground. The seemingly unforgivable defeat to Monaco was made up for by winning at Old Trafford in the cup, and the truly shocking performances (win, lose or draw) have largely improved.
Ultimately can't help but shake the feeling that under Wenger we are the South African cricket team of European football

[Ollie the Optimist]

For me, if we win the fa cup and finish strongly in the league then he deserves one more season to get it right. Ive changed my opinion several times on whether he should go or not but for me especially with the two manchester games there have been significant changes. Ozil and Alexis have added some serious quality, Giroud has stepped up too. If we can attack second place and get that with a trophy then he gets one more shot.

If we limp over the line making the same mistakes as we have for the past few years then i think he should probably walk away but the manchester results, especially united, has given hope that Wenger is changing himself too. He is sticking to his principles but adjusting the tactics as well. If he continues to do that then one more shot. The proof will be in how many points we take against liverppol, chelsea and united. If we can get 7/9 then i think that is huge improvement

[Power n Glory]

It's a reasonable target over 10 seasons though and we should be aiming for and expect to win both the title and the CL. That should be the MINIMUM expectation at all times and it's entirely reasonable for a club with Arsenal's resources to effectively challenge for both. From the board through the manager the players and the fans, total victory across the spectrum is the goal at all times. Every loss is a failure and there are no excuses ever.

Above is a winning mentality.

"I don't think it's reasonable...", "I'd settle for...", "We can't expect to...", "Finishing 2nd would be an achievement...", "Better the devil you know...", these are all the loser's mentality. The moment you preface a challenge with any of these qualifiers you have lost.

You asked the question, I'm giving you an Olympic champion's, world heavyweight champion's, world cup winner's response. For people who get paid an obscene fortune every week to do what they love there are two ways to go, take those gifts and give back every ounce of effort in achieving all that can be achieved or be complacent and take without giving back.

In sport you can fail. Most do. But if you fail without expecting to succeed then your mentality is shit. If you fail having given every last drop of effort then that's an acceptable platform on which to try again. That's progress. Anything else is unacceptable. This isn't a charity or a hobby or a part time job, it's the pinnacle of professional sport. So I'll stick with requiring the title or the CL because I ASSUME the manager thinks the same way and will act accordingly. If that's not the case then of course he shouldn't be the manager.

:gp: Big post. You've made progress! Seems like our talks are finally rubbing off! :lol:

In all seriousness, I've never understood the '4th place is a trophy' mentality Wenger has carried around. We've settled on 4th pace for years and I've understood why the lack of success in recent years never burned him or severely bruised his ego. I've always hated the way he's defended the ambition of Board and shifted the focus on financial stability as if their goals should be the standard in the football. The mentality of the Board will always be different because they're looking over the commercial side of things and a win for them is different to the sort of targets the player's and manager wish to achieve in their careers. Any desire for silverware on the Boards part has to be linked with the commercial and financial spoils it will bring. I can understand that. It's the nature of that side of the business and not just exclusive to football. But the players and manager should want victory and ultimate victory on the pitch. The day we're satisfied with 4th in the league, then something is really wrong.

[Power n Glory]

It's time for Wenger to move on. If he can finish his career on a high with silverware, then I'm all for it. That's the perfect way to end it.

[Dein-machine]

Shopping mall Santa? :unsure:

Youve got far too much time on your habds to think of that one! - good shout though.

[fakeyank]

Gotta go

[Letters]

Gotta go

Care to elaborate?

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

He needs a shite.

[Globalgunner]

2017 should be a good time to go for the current Italy manager and former Juve manager (name escapes me now). Pep should be tired of eating German sausages (for dinner.....you of naughty imagination) by that time too I think. Either would be great

[fakeyank]

Care to elaborate?

You know my conditions.. challenge for the PL, challenge for the CL and beat a Mourinho side. I do not think any of this is going to happen this season. May be the last one has a chance but I definitely wont be holding my breath. I know that Mourinho will be salivating to get one more win against Wenger.. unfortunately I do not see Wenger having that same kind of hunger to put one over Mourinho.

I have seen enough false dawns under Wenger to know that a few wins will usually lead to nothing but disappointment.

[Alpha]

Arsenal have had most of their successful years with Arsene Wenger . The same man that fans are questioning his abilities to bring the team to the next level now . Success can never be built all of the sudden . It is a process that goes step by step .
We were enjoying success at Highbury and no one realised the stadium was a bird nest and was holding the team back . Wenger conceived the Emirates that we are proud of and enjoying . That came with a heavy price to pay : we lost the success of our tiny Highbury and the ability to buy top players as we had to finance our new home .
That problem seems solved .
If we can win our FA cup and push Chelsea and City as far as we can and grab a second or third place , if we can add one or two top players on top of what we already have , I can not see any reason why Wenger shouldn't be allowed to continue the work he has started .
Changing the manager is not a bad idea but who is that person who will do more than what Wenger has done ? Is the Arsenal board prepared to spend millions on top players every season like Chelsea or Man City ? I , personally , doubt it .
Following all these reasons , for me , it is Wenger In ATM .

[mr_brighterside]

he needs to go imo. he's become the master at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, it's too late for us to have a chance at the title this year and cl is almost certainly a goner too.

[AFC Leveller]

We are 9 points of Chelsea (if they win their game in hand) but with them coming to our place still plus a couple of other tough ish games against Man ure and Liverpool, its all to play for for us interms of title or at least 2nd place.

Wenger should stay on if we get 3rd or above and the win the FA cup too.

[fakeyank]

We are 9 points of Chelsea (if they win their game in hand) but with them coming to our place still plus a couple of other tough ish games against Man ure and Liverpool, its all to play for for us interms of title or at least 2nd place.

Wenger should stay on if we get 3rd or above and the win the FA cup too.

There is a very good chance Chelsea will drop a few points and we could be in touching distance of them come April when we play them. You know whats going to happen next, dont you? Mourinho will analyze and break down every bit of information about our game and set up to hit us on the counter... and we WILL get hit on the counter, as expected. You are not going to get anything different out of Wenger... sure a couple of wins and some sexy goals will bring the Wenger lovers 'giving him one more season' but the stats will say that this is going to be a false dawn, as usual.

Wenger needs to quit after this season.. no 2 ways about it. I am actually disappointed to see that 5 people actually want him to stay. Some people never learn.. :sulk:

[Letters]

You know my conditions.. challenge for the PL, challenge for the CL and beat a Mourinho side. I do not think any of this is going to happen this season. May be the last one has a chance but I definitely wont be holding my breath. I know that Mourinho will be salivating to get one more win against Wenger.. unfortunately I do not see Wenger having that same kind of hunger to put one over Mourinho.

I have seen enough false dawns under Wenger to know that a few wins will usually lead to nothing but disappointment.

It's hardly a few wins. Our last 24 games, since we lost the Utd game at home, we have W19 D1 L4 in all competitions.
It's a pretty impressive run.

You are right about false dawns but I've suggested a few things which may indicate this is a bit different.
If we finish 3rd, or even 2nd, and retain the Cup then we'll have won two major trophies in two seasons and be well placed to push on and challenge next year.
We've been well placed like this before of course but I do see the Utd result as significant and if we beat Chelsea too then that might show something about this team which we haven't seen for a long time.

[Alpha]

There is a very good chance Chelsea will drop a few points and we could be in touching distance of them come April when we play them. You know whats going to happen next, dont you? Mourinho will analyze and break down every bit of information about our game and set up to hit us on the counter... and we WILL get hit on the counter, as expected. You are not going to get anything different out of Wenger... sure a couple of wins and some sexy goals will bring the Wenger lovers 'giving him one more season' but the stats will say that this is going to be a false dawn, as usual.

Wenger needs to quit after this season.. no 2 ways about it. I am actually disappointed to see that 5 people actually want him to stay. Some people never learn.. :sulk:

Fakeyank , do you know that most people don't like their job, especially when they see the boy next door driving a Lamborghini or a Ferrari they can't afford ? But they stick to their job which allows them to pay their bills , to have a decent Holliday ,to pay themselves a second hand bike ..etc..All that because , they might not have the qualification required to have a better job or simply a connection or information to a better job or their health or family commitment could be the problem .
The problem is not Wenger in or out . The problem is who will replace him and deliver a better job than him? Will the board back him with more money ? Is the board ready to invest more money than they did with Wenger ?
They always say the devil you know is better than the angel you don't know .

[fakeyank]

It's hardly a few wins. Our last 24 games, since we lost the Utd game at home, we have W19 D1 L4 in all competitions.
It's a pretty impressive run.

You are right about false dawns but I've suggested a few things which may indicate this is a bit different.
If we finish 3rd, or even 2nd, and retain the Cup then we'll have won two major trophies in two seasons and be well placed to push on and challenge next year.
We've been well placed like this before of course but I do see the Utd result as significant and if we beat Chelsea too then that might show something about this team which we haven't seen for a long time.

I'll give you another impressive run we went on in 2008/09 season (IMO one of the worst football was played by Arsenal this season, with Denilson in the forefront). During this season, we went on a run that started in November 08 in the PL. That run had just one defeat till the end of the season. One freaking defeat in 6 months is bloody impressive you would think. Unfortunately not, we had 10 draws during this time, 4 of which were consecutive 0-0 draws.

We can go on another 10 match unbeaten run, but if we are 10 points behind the champions come may, 'this run' makes no difference to me. Stats can be interpreted and twisted according to an individuals preference. What you cannot change is the end result.. have we challenged? Have we showed that we can play the big boys in Europe and look like an European power house? I do not see these turning in the favor of Arsenal till the time AW is in charge.

I will tell you however that beating Mourinho will really make me rethink my position! In fact, if you ask me which I'd rather have- the FA cup or a win over Chelsea with Mourinho as manager, I'd pick the later.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It's hardly a few wins. Our last 24 games, since we lost the Utd game at home, we have W19 D1 L4 in all competitions.
It's a pretty impressive run.

You are right about false dawns but I've suggested a few things which may indicate this is a bit different.
If we finish 3rd, or even 2nd, and retain the Cup then we'll have won two major trophies in two seasons and be well placed to push on and challenge next year.
We've been well placed like this before of course but I do see the Utd result as significant and if we beat Chelsea too then that might show something about this team which we haven't seen for a long time.

Its a run that leaves us in a position where we have no hope of the title or a European challenge.

I'm done with cherry picking good runs during the course of a season that ultimately ends in the same type of failure.

We've done that season after season after season and ended up with one FA Cup to show for it all.

[LDG]

He still shows the same tactical ineptitude and inability to get the most out of a talented squad.

Two weeks ago, we were abysmal against Monaco, a gimme (if there is one) to the Qtr Finals. We ballsed it up as we weren't prepared for the bleeding obvious.

He has stumbled upon the Coquelin thing out of pure luck, and will likely replace him with Arteta as soon as he possibly can.

We are only a few matches away from another embarassment. A good team only has one or two embarassments a season. We're still racking up double figures.

It's nice to see us beat a shit Utd (like we should have done earlier in the year), but for me the only stand out result so far this year, is the win away to City. That's still a one off for me, as I don't regard Utd as any good at all. All we did was do what we should have done.

[Maestro]

It's a reasonable target over 10 seasons though and we should be aiming for and expect to win both the title and the CL. That should be the MINIMUM expectation at all times and it's entirely reasonable for a club with Arsenal's resources to effectively challenge for both. From the board through the manager the players and the fans, total victory across the spectrum is the goal at all times. Every loss is a failure and there are no excuses ever.

Above is a winning mentality.

"I don't think it's reasonable...", "I'd settle for...", "We can't expect to...", "Finishing 2nd would be an achievement...", "Better the devil you know...", these are all the loser's mentality. The moment you preface a challenge with any of these qualifiers you have lost.

You asked the question, I'm giving you an Olympic champion's, world heavyweight champion's, world cup winner's response. For people who get paid an obscene fortune every week to do what they love there are two ways to go, take those gifts and give back every ounce of effort in achieving all that can be achieved or be complacent and take without giving back.

In sport you can fail. Most do. But if you fail without expecting to succeed then your mentality is shit. If you fail having given every last drop of effort then that's an acceptable platform on which to try again. That's progress. Anything else is unacceptable. This isn't a charity or a hobby or a part time job, it's the pinnacle of professional sport. So I'll stick with requiring the title or the CL because I ASSUME the manager thinks the same way and will act accordingly. If that's not the case then of course he shouldn't be the manager.

Bang Bang ....Don D'Marco

[fakeyank]

Fakeyank , do you know that most people don't like their job, especially when they see the boy next door driving a Lamborghini or a Ferrari they can't afford ? But they stick to their job which allows them to pay their bills , to have a decent Holliday ,to pay themselves a second hand bike ..etc..All that because , they might not have the qualification required to have a better job or simply a connection or information to a better job or their health or family commitment could be the problem .
The problem is not Wenger in or out . The problem is who will replace him and deliver a better job than him? Will the board back him with more money ? Is the board ready to invest more money than they did with Wenger ?
They always say the devil you know is better than the angel you don't know .

Fear of the unknown should not be a reason to stick with mediocrity. Let's say you are in a relationship where your partner and you are not growing together, there is no love and no passion in the relationship. Do you break up? Or do you stick with the relationship because that is all you knew your entire life?

I can rattle off the same names about possible replacements like Simeone, Klopp, Martinez etc etc, but I am not going down that route. How many people thought Arsene Wenger would deliver when we signed him in 96? No one! There is no guarantees that the next manager will be the perfect fit for our club, but there is also a chance that the next manager just might be the perfect fit? Why look at only the negatives and not the positives of such a situation? It is not like Wenger was not given time to build his teams... he has time and again showed that his tactics and man management are one of the worst among the top teams in Europe.

So the question really is, why would I want him to stay on? We have showed our loyalty to him.. time to move on to bigger and better things!

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

If you look at the Barca situation, they are still competing at the top of their league & the C.L. with a manager who has he doubters. But with the players they have, the teams they regularly play I would suggest that Nigel Pearson would be getting similar results if he was their manager. How much more can you teach the likes of Messi etc. Put quality players into a system where they have quality replacements & you get continuity.
We regularly win the 4th place trophy because we have continuity through our manager & the way he tries to play but again could Nigel Pearson be getting similar results with our squad & spending power.
If we actually want to challenge we need the continuity that we have to be broken & this can only be with a new manager.
There is not a job in the world where you are better at 65 than when you were 50. We need a younger guy in who has learnt his trade during the period that billionaires have ruined our game. Having money ofcourse is a major benefit but you can only have 11 players on the pitch. A manager that will pay for transfer fees ( within reason ) without arguing over a few million quid when he thinks we need that type of player is essential. Wenger seems to never want to give in to anyone & we have missed out on a lot of players because of his penny pinching. Ozil & Sanchez are quality players but we have badly neglected key areas in defence, DM & prolific striker for too many years now - even when we have had the money.

It is widely thought within the industry of design and architecture that architects peak at 60 for various reasons. I won't bore you with why. Though I'm sure people can think of other jobs where it is possible. :d

[Özim]

I'm not going for the "one more season" thing again, he's had one more season for as long as I remember. It's time for him to move on now, sure we're doing OK at the moment but we've been nowhere for most of the season and it's the same every season, it's been a very poor quality league this time round where all the bigger teams have been under par bar maybe Chelsea in any other season we'd be in all likelyness not in the top 4 right now, I just don't see Wenger as the man to take us forward, he's had plenty of opportunities and failed to deliver I'm afraid.

Let's thank him for all the memories and let someone else have a go at building something we cn be excited about now.

[Letters]

It's nice to see us beat a shit Utd (like we should have done earlier in the year), but for me the only stand out result so far this year, is the win away to City. That's still a one off for me, as I don't regard Utd as any good at all. All we did was do what we should have done.
That's a bit harsh. I don't rate Utd that highly either but actually their results are pretty good this year, they've only lost 3 games at home all season, including ours. They beat Liverpool, drew with Chelsea, haven't played City or us yet in the league.

And I certainly don't agree we have had many embarrassments this season, certainly not double figures.

[LDG]

That's a bit harsh. I don't rate Utd that highly either but actually their results are pretty good this year, they've only lost 3 games at home all season, including ours. They beat Liverpool, drew with Chelsea, haven't played City or us yet in the league.

And I certainly don't agree we have had many embarrassments this season, certainly not double figures.

Besiktas - We struggled through CL qualification 1-0 on aggregate with some really poor football. If their strikers weren't dogshit, we would have gotten bungled.

Leicester - Drew 1-1 against the newly promoted whipping boys. We were awful

Dortmund - Got outplayed by a woefully out of form Dortmund, possibly one of the worst performances this year for application and preparation

Southampton (Rumbelows Cup) - Got banged out of the league cup in the first round

Spurs - 1-1 at home against a side who were really struggling. We didn't turn up and spurned a great chance to get our season going

Chelsea - 0-2 after last season, you would expect we'd be right up for this. No. We bottled it again, and had it not been for poor finishing on Chelsea's part, we would have been trounced again. The result was very flattering on us.

Hull - 2-2 looked like a nailed on thrashing when Alexis netted early. Then we proceeded to gift them two goals, and only just about managed to get level through Welbeck at the end. Was there, and it was shite.

Anderlecht - 3-3 Three up at half time, and another Arsenal collapse saw us give away three second half goals. Shocking

Swansea - 1-2 Same old, same old. No respect for the opposition. Fucking dire football, which then was repeated in....

Man Utd 1-2 at home against a shambolic Utd team there for the taking, just like Spurs were earlier in the season. We just gave it to them on a platter.

Stoke 2-3 again, we should have known what was coming at that shit hole. After all, it happens every year. And we got another gutless performance, and let fucking Peter Crouch (Peter Fucking Crouch) score in the first minute. 0-3 down at half time!! Against Stoke!!

Saints 0-2 same again. Gutless, rubbish, insipid performance

Spurs 1-2

Monaco 1-3 (only two weeks ago)

Enough rubbish for you??

[Letters]

You're having to reach a bit there. I don't think many if any of those are humiliations, there are some really poor performances and results but you can cherry pick those for any club in any season. None of those are like last year's hammerings. Admittedly I didn't see all of those, I did see the Dortmund one and agree we were really awlful that day. I'll give you Stoke too as we were 3-0 down at half time. Against Stoke :doh:

[GP]

Besiktas - We struggled through CL qualification 1-0 on aggregate with some really poor football. If their strikers weren't dogshit, we would have gotten bungled.

Leicester - Drew 1-1 against the newly promoted whipping boys. We were awful

Dortmund - Got outplayed by a woefully out of form Dortmund, possibly one of the worst performances this year for application and preparation

Southampton (Rumbelows Cup) - Got banged out of the league cup in the first round

Spurs - 1-1 at home against a side who were really struggling. We didn't turn up and spurned a great chance to get our season going

Chelsea - 0-2 after last season, you would expect we'd be right up for this. No. We bottled it again, and had it not been for poor finishing on Chelsea's part, we would have been trounced again. The result was very flattering on us.

Hull - 2-2 looked like a nailed on thrashing when Alexis netted early. Then we proceeded to gift them two goals, and only just about managed to get level through Welbeck at the end. Was there, and it was shite.

Anderlecht - 3-3 Three up at half time, and another Arsenal collapse saw us give away three second half goals. Shocking

Swansea - 1-2 Same old, same old. No respect for the opposition. Fucking dire football, which then was repeated in....

Man Utd 1-2 at home against a shambolic Utd team there for the taking, just like Spurs were earlier in the season. We just gave it to them on a platter.

Stoke 2-3 again, we should have known what was coming at that shit hole. After all, it happens every year. And we got another gutless performance, and let fucking Peter Crouch (Peter Fucking Crouch) score in the first minute. 0-3 down at half time!! Against Stoke!!

Saints 0-2 same again. Gutless, rubbish, insipid performance

Spurs 1-2

Monaco 1-3 (only two weeks ago)

Enough rubbish for you??

Yeah but apart from that...

[LDG]

You're having to reach a bit there. I don't think many if any of those are humiliations, there are some really poor performances and results but you can cherry pick those for any club in any season. None of those are like last year's hammerings. Admittedly I didn't see all of those, I did see the Dortmund one and agree we were really awlful that day. I'll give you Stoke too as we were 3-0 down at half time. Against Stoke :doh:

I think the point, is that a club with ambition, doesn't crap out like that. We have a squad that should be rivalling Chelsea for the title off the back of last season.

We have failed miserably to live up to that this season.

[Özim]

You're having to reach a bit there. I don't think many if any of those are humiliations, there are some really poor performances and results but you can cherry pick those for any club in any season. None of those are like last year's hammerings. Admittedly I didn't see all of those, I did see the Dortmund one and agree we were really awlful that day. I'll give you Stoke too as we were 3-0 down at half time. Against Stoke :doh:


We saved all our humiliations for last season where we got pummelled by a number of teams. This season it's just been indifferent form, some awful results and some pretty poor performances even when we have won. The standard of the league has been shocking, we're fortunate it has been or we'd be nowhere.

[Power n Glory]

I think the point, is that a club with ambition, doesn't crap out like that. We have a squad that should be rivalling Chelsea for the title off the back of last season.

We have failed miserably to live up to that this season.

Letter's is too far gone. If a turd needs polishing, he's your man for the job.

[Letters]

I think the point, is that a club with ambition, doesn't crap out like that. We have a squad that should be rivalling Chelsea for the title off the back of last season.

We have failed miserably to live up to that this season.

Chelsea have had some stinkers too

Chelsea 1 - Shalke 1 (Really should be beating them at home).
NK Maribor 1 - Chelsea 1 (Who? :lol:)
Chelsea 2 - PSG 2 (Played against 10 men for most of it)
Chelsea 2 - Bradford 4 (:haha:)
Chelsea 1 - Burnley 1
Chelsea 3 - Spurs 5.
Sunderland 0 - Chelsea 0

I honestly don't know what to make of this season, it feels like we've been pretty disappointing but we could yet finish 2nd and win the Cup, that wouldn't be a bad season. We should be challenging for the league but I do see the results in Manchester as significant in terms of our ability to win those big games. I agree with FY that we need to beat Chelsea at home. If we do that then I think we've got a real chance of pushing on next season although concede we've thought that before.

[Power n Glory]

See

[AFC Leveller]

Besiktas - We struggled through CL qualification 1-0 on aggregate with some really poor football. If their strikers weren't dogshit, we would have gotten bungled.

Leicester - Drew 1-1 against the newly promoted whipping boys. We were awful

Dortmund - Got outplayed by a woefully out of form Dortmund, possibly one of the worst performances this year for application and preparation

Southampton (Rumbelows Cup) - Got banged out of the league cup in the first round

Spurs - 1-1 at home against a side who were really struggling. We didn't turn up and spurned a great chance to get our season going

Chelsea - 0-2 after last season, you would expect we'd be right up for this. No. We bottled it again, and had it not been for poor finishing on Chelsea's part, we would have been trounced again. The result was very flattering on us.

Hull - 2-2 looked like a nailed on thrashing when Alexis netted early. Then we proceeded to gift them two goals, and only just about managed to get level through Welbeck at the end. Was there, and it was shite.

Anderlecht - 3-3 Three up at half time, and another Arsenal collapse saw us give away three second half goals. Shocking

Swansea - 1-2 Same old, same old. No respect for the opposition. Fucking dire football, which then was repeated in....

Man Utd 1-2 at home against a shambolic Utd team there for the taking, just like Spurs were earlier in the season. We just gave it to them on a platter.

Stoke 2-3 again, we should have known what was coming at that shit hole. After all, it happens every year. And we got another gutless performance, and let fucking Peter Crouch (Peter Fucking Crouch) score in the first minute. 0-3 down at half time!! Against Stoke!!

Saints 0-2 same again. Gutless, rubbish, insipid performance

Spurs 1-2

Monaco 1-3 (only two weeks ago)

Enough rubbish for you??

Not enough evidence.

[Letters]

Not enough evidence.

Well, it isn't. Few if any of those are humiliations and you can cherry pick any team's results like I have with Chelsea and do the same.

[Özim]

He cherry picked 14 results, that's impressive Cherry picking tbf.

[LDG]

Well, it isn't. Few if any of those are humiliations and you can cherry pick any team's results like I have with Chelsea and do the same.

I don't give a monkey's about Chelsea (and even if I did, I'd ask you to look where they are in the table)

I want this Arsenal team to perform to it's full potential, and eradicate the perennial failure to be where a club of our standing should be. We have the team, therefore, we should be doing much better. And only one man is responsible for that.

I hold no ill will towards Wenger. It's just time to go, as nothing has changed. And unless I'm completely wrong (and I'd love to be proved wrong), we'll carry on doing exactly the same, year on year.

[Letters]

And unless I'm completely wrong (and I'd love to be proved wrong), we'll carry on doing exactly the same, year on year.
Well, I guess the question is: is this yet another false dawn or is there actually a change in quality and mentality which will see us sustain our recent form over the course of a season and thus seriously challenge next year.

I've suggested a few things which may indicate a change: we won the Cup last year, we're back in the semi-final this, we've beaten both Manchester clubs away, one in a Cup Quarter final - the exact sort of game where we traditionally crumble and I think you're being harsh dismissing that, that was only their 3rd home defeat this season. If we beat Chelsea then it will be another sign that we can stand up and be counted in games against teams we should be rivalling.

[fakeyank]

Well, I guess the question is: is this yet another false dawn or is there actually a change in quality and mentality which will see us sustain our recent form over the course of a season and thus seriously challenge next year.

I've suggested a few things which may indicate a change: we won the Cup last year, we're back in the semi-final this, we've beaten both Manchester clubs away, one in a Cup Quarter final - the exact sort of game where we traditionally crumble and I think you're being harsh dismissing that, that was only their 3rd home defeat this season. If we beat Chelsea then it will be another sign that we can stand up and be counted in games against teams we should be rivalling.

Can we somehow incorporate making posts 'favorites' on here? I would love to have that ability. Why? Because I am 200% sure you looked at some false dawns every season and thought that this just may be it. I would love to go back and do some research but 13,500 posts is a lot to look through!

[LDG]

Well, I guess the question is: is this yet another false dawn or is there actually a change in quality and mentality which will see us sustain our recent form over the course of a season and thus seriously challenge next year.

I've suggested a few things which may indicate a change: we won the Cup last year, we're back in the semi-final this, we've beaten both Manchester clubs away, one in a Cup Quarter final - the exact sort of game where we traditionally crumble and I think you're being harsh dismissing that, that was only their 3rd home defeat this season. If we beat Chelsea then it will be another sign that we can stand up and be counted in games against teams we should be rivalling.

May, might, could....

The overwhelming evidence, every time we've started getting optimistic, is that we'll fluff our lines. I really am hopeful that we'll finally, after all this waiting, make an assault on the major prizes and consistently challenge the moneybags clubs.

The evidence of past failures, and the patchy/poor form up until the last few months says otherwise.

My point is, that we already should be there. I think we all know that if Wenger hadn't found his Coq, we probably wouldn't have had this moderate success of late. And that really was a stumble into luck, rather than judgement of a player he thought was dead a buried. There are still major questions over his man-management and tactical nouse....and that won't change because he's still stubborn. So that will prove his undoing when it comes to crunch time.

Say we were in a position to challenge Chelsea at the end of April, and we come up against them. I think we all know what will happen.

[Letters]

Can we somehow incorporate making posts 'favorites' on here? I would love to have that ability. Why? Because I am 200% sure you looked at some false dawns every season and thought that this just may be it. I would love to go back and do some research but 13,500 posts is a lot to look through!

Why are you completely ignoring the reasons why I've said there may be a difference? :lol:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Wenger is slow to adapt at times but he does do so. I'm as worried about his unnecessary gambles in the transfer market as much as anything else. Going into the season the way we did was never sufficient for a convincing title challenge and imo it was quite needless, negligent even. A back up CB is nowhere near as problematic an issue to address as lacking the basic quality in the first team.

So what if you end up with a player you don't want for the next 10 years......we already have players in the squad we don't necessarily want.

Had Gabriel arrived last summer, we might well be looking at a title challenge this season. Mertesacker could have been hooked when he was struggling as could have Chambers when he was having his difficulties had we had Gabriel half a season before we signed him.

We are now an interesting situation because when the season ends there is no glaring hole to plug. You'd ideally want someone in to compete and compliment Coquelin who are superior to Flamini and Arteta and in an ideal world a world class centre forward but those are finer details. Giroud has made considerable strides forward though so the position doesn't require the same attention we would have given it before.

If Wenger isn't quite so behind the ball with squad preparation I'm happy for him to stay. We've relinquished possession in enough games to be convinced that we are willing to tweak our game to get the results. As we showed against West Ham the flowing football doesn't have to be a thing of the past either.

[fakeyank]

I have replied to them within this thread and so have many others. I cannot change your personal perspective in believing in false dawns.. what I was hoping instead to show was how you do this every season without fail. You will find any and every reason to prove that 'something is different this season' and put that as a reason for AW to stay.

[Letters]

Say we were in a position to challenge Chelsea at the end of April, and we come up against them. I think we all know what will happen.
Well, we all know what's happened time and time again previously, and we mostly thought it would happen against Utd last Monday, but it didn't.
Is that a one off or is it a sign that this lot finally have the mentality to win the big games?

[Letters]

I have replied to them within this thread
You really haven't.

[fakeyank]

You really haven't.

Page 4 of this thread has a few of my posts and page 3 has one. There is not much to add that I probably havent said in about 3000 of my other posts.

[Power n Glory]

I have replied to them within this thread and so have many others. I cannot change your personal perspective in believing in false dawns.. what I was hoping instead to show was how you do this every season without fail. You will find any and every reason to prove that 'something is different this season' and put that as a reason for AW to stay.

Yep. Every year he does this.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Why are you completely ignoring the reasons why I've said there may be a difference? :lol:

Probably because you say it every year. You also ask the same question every year.

You're worse than the toddler in the back seat asking, 'are we there yet'? every five minutes.

We ain't never getting there with Wenger in charge.

[Letters]

Probably because you say it every year. You also ask the same question every year.

You're worse than the toddler in the back seat asking, 'are we there yet'? every five minutes.

We ain't never getting there with Wenger in charge.
Did you think we'd beat Utd?

[LDG]

Did you think we'd beat Utd?

Throw enough shit at the wall, some of it has to stick.

More loose bowel movements tonight though.

[Özim]

Tonight sums it up, just like every season we're galant losers in the last 16 of the CL, nothing really changes does it?

[Maestro]

No need for match reaction threads anymore. It's all right here.

Personally I think it's idiotic defending this manager any longer.

[selassie]

Tonight sums it up, just like every season we're galant losers in the last 16 of the CL, nothing really changes does it?

Yep, we can't even use the excuse of losing to a decent side. They are the worst team left in the tournament and they tore us apart in the first leg. I don't even know what to say anymore.

[Letters]

We won 2-0 :lol:

The damage was done in the first leg, why are you wetting your pants weeks later?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Did you think we'd beat Utd?

No. I did not.

But let's not pretend that is some kind of achievement.

[Maestro]

We won 2-0 :lol:

The damage was done in the first leg, why are you wetting your pants weeks later?

Monaco could well have been beaten 3-0 tonight, given the team we have against theirs. No pant wetting here, just another example of of our perennial glorious failures ..we've grown a big rep in this shit now, in case you haven't noticed.

[selassie]

We won 2-0 :lol:

The damage was done in the first leg, why are you wetting your pants weeks later?

This thread is about Wenger & his failings. Gallant losers get nothing, we failed again.

[Xhaka Can’t]

We won 2-0 :lol:

The damage was done in the first leg, why are you wetting your pants weeks later?

You can't see why?

Really?

[Xhaka Can’t]

No need for match reaction threads anymore. It's all right here.

Personally I think it's idiotic defending this manager any longer.

Someone's just trying to generate posts. It can be the only reason.

[LDG]

We won 2-0 :lol:

The damage was done in the first leg, why are you wetting your pants weeks later?

Yeah! We should be celebrating!

[Injury Time]

Perry, get your fork...

[Maestro]

No. I did not.

But let's not pretend that is some kind of achievement.


Too right it is not an achievement, it's an embarrassment our recent record against united.

[Globalgunner]

You asking Letters to see something he has already decided is not there?

[fakeyank]

Letters will defend AW even if he loses all 38 games in a PL season. There will be some stat or match(es) that will give him hope that next season will be better! :lol:

[Maestro]

No more Wenget dick riding, and prolonging this old man's damaging hard on. Time he left ...yeah I said it ...and this time it's personal. Bang Bang ...Don Di Marco!

[Niall_Quinn]

Well that's the CL gone, chucked in the first leg against the leviathan Monaco.

So that just leaves the PL. If he wins that he can stay. Otherwise out.

[Letters]

No. I did not.

But let's not pretend that is some kind of achievement.

Isn't it? :unsure:
I'd agree that this isn't a great Utd side, but they've only lost 3 times at home this year - drew with Chelsea, spanked Liverpool, haven't played City yet.
And it was in one of those 'high pressure' games which you (with some justification, tbf) say we always lose.
To then dismiss it when we win does seem like zimtacular goalpost shifting.
We need to start winning these games with some consistency of course, we beat City away which is a good sign and I agree with FY that we need to do Chelsea too.
We've got Liverpool and Chelsea to play so let's see how we do in those two.
Some of the frustrations remain but if we retain the cup and finish 3rd, or even 2nd, it won't have been such a terrible season.

[Letters]

Yeah! We should be celebrating!

Are celebrating and moaning our tits off the only two options?
The damage was done in the first leg. Over two legs we should have beaten Monaco, clearly. But given the result in the first leg and that stupid, stupid 3rd goal we left ourselves a mountain to climb.
Monaco hadn't conceded a goal in the CL all year at home, they've only conceded 7 at home in 14 league games. I don't know much about them but they seem like the boring boring Arsenal of France.
2-0 out there was a good result on the night but also a frustrating one because if we can do that we can surely beat them at home and so should have progressed.

[Letters]

Letters will defend AW even if he loses all 38 games in a PL season. There will be some stat or match(es) that will give him hope that next season will be better! :lol:
:yawn:

That's like me saying you'll keep criticising Wenger if we won every game all season and won the quadruple.
If I'm defending him at all, it's because we haven't lost that many games and things aren't as calamitous as you keep making out.
We're a point off 2nd place, we're in the Cup semi-final (we're the current holders, by the way) having beaten Utd in the quarter finals, we should get to the final and could well retain the Cup.
IF we can sustain our recent form over the course of a season then we will challenge seriously next year. We have the squad to now, the question is do we have the mentality? A couple of results recently have indicated maybe we're getting better like that, I agree that the Chelsea result will be telling and we have Liverpool to play too.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I tend to agree with Letters here, after the United result there was some jubilation but last night we seem to be angry for a result that happened three weeks ago.
We should have beaten Monaco no question asked and there is a clear pattern of us giving ourselves an impossible task in the first leg, 2012, 2013, 2014 and now 2015.
But Im almost getting the impression that people seem just as annoyed that we failed to overturn the deficit as getting ourselves into that position in the first place.
The first leg was embarrassing and its yet another example of why he isn't the man to take us forward, but frankly I had no issue at all with the performance last night.

[Power n Glory]

Bob Loblaw asked if this result was some sort of achievement.

Letter's response - 'Isn't it?'

:doh:

Two seasons ago, this same result played out against Bayern and we haven't grown any wiser or learned any lessons since. So I don't know how anyone can see it as an achievement. It's Monaco!

[Letters]

Bob Loblaw asked if this result was some sort of achievement.

Letter's response - 'Isn't it?'

We were talking about the Utd game...

[Marc Overmars]

I tend to agree with Letters here, after the United result there was some jubilation but last night we seem to be angry for a result that happened three weeks ago.
We should have beaten Monaco no question asked and there is a clear pattern of us giving ourselves an impossible task in the first leg, 2012, 2013, 2014 and now 2015.
But Im almost getting the impression that people seem just as annoyed that we failed to overturn the deficit as getting ourselves into that position in the first place.
The first leg was embarrassing and its yet another example of why he isn't the man to take us forward, but frankly I had no issue at all with the performance last night.

This is why I'd rather we hadn't won and just gone out on a damp squib. It was a fantastic performance, as good as we'll see from us away from home in Europe.

I didn't expect to win the CL but it's infuriating to exit like this again, especially against a team like Monaco. I just want to see some improvement in this competition we're all too happy to qualify for (because it's a cash cow) but not actually be competitive in.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And at the risk of weighing in he didnt ask whether beating Utd was an achievement he asserted that it wasnt.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

This is why I'd rather we hadn't won and just gone out on a damp squib. It was a fantastic performance, as good as we'll see from us away from home in Europe.

I didn't expect to win the CL but it's infuriating to exit like this again, especially against a team like Monaco. I just want to see some improvement in this competition we're all too happy to qualify for (because it's a cash cow) but not actually be competitive in.

I will be honest part of me thought it would have been almost better if we hadnt won than at least there wouldn't be the overriding frustration of how did we manage to lose against such a team (two years against Bayern I was able to look at it as a great stand alone performance).
But the thing is we were already out before last nights game, even if for no better reason that we frankly don't have the firepower up front to overturn a first leg deficit (which obviously we shouldn't have had). So taking last night as stand alone I can say oh well least we tried.
Which logically makes sense because if you analyse everything in the grand scheme of how we aren't improving under Wenger you'll just make yourself depressed because like it or not he's with us until at least 2017. I say at least because I have a feeling he will be here after that and we are lumbered with him until 2020.

[Power n Glory]

And at the risk of weighing in he didnt ask whether beating Utd was an achievement he asserted that it wasnt.

He may have a point. Leicester City have put 5 past United this season.

[Penguin]

We played fairly well and 2-0 away from home in Europe is always a good result, no matter who the opponents are. But the pace we played at, and the lack of urgency was ridiculous. Especially after going 2-0 up, we had 17 minutes to score and we only made their keeper make one save. One save :haha:

I probably would have taken a face saving 2-0 win before the match, but the feeling I got after the match was that we could have scored four or five if we applied ourselves. Forget the first leg, we could have done it in this game.Wenger has instilled a mentality into these players that the goals will magically appear if we are patient enough.

[Özim]

Are celebrating and moaning our tits off the only two options?
The damage was done in the first leg. Over two legs we should have beaten Monaco, clearly. But given the result in the first leg and that stupid, stupid 3rd goal we left ourselves a mountain to climb.
Monaco hadn't conceded a goal in the CL all year at home, they've only conceded 7 at home in 14 league games. I don't know much about them but they seem like the boring boring Arsenal of France.
2-0 out there was a good result on the night but also a frustrating one because if we can do that we can surely beat them at home and so should have progressed.

A tie is played over two legs, effectively it's like playing a match and being pummeled in the 1st half and then coming back in the 2nd half but ultimately still losing overall, the result last night is entirely irrelevant when you don't win the tie.

You could have predicted the result though, we've done this so many times now, when the pressure is off we win, but never quite by enough, it's always the same once we're close we just stop playing and often don't even have a shot at goal of note, at 2-0 we should have been throwing the kitchen sink at them, it's not like we couldn't afford to concede 1.

I'm sick of hearing excuses, a loss over two legs is a loss however you put it.

[Marc Overmars]

We're probably the worst kind of team to be for kitchen sink jobs. Wengerball is deeply ingrained, so no matter how urgent the situation is we won't stray too far from tippy tappy. Although maybe that's not a bad thing anyway because the crosses we did eventually start loading in were fucking dreadful.

[adzzzbatch]

A tie is played over two legs, effectively it's like playing a match and being pummeled in the 1st half and then coming back in the 2nd half but ultimately still losing overall, the result last night is entirely irrelevant when you don't win the tie.

You could have predicted the result though, we've done this so many times now, when the pressure is off we win, but never quite by enough, it's always the same once we're close we just stop playing and often don't even have a shot at goal of note, at 2-0 we should have been throwing the kitchen sink at them, it's not like we couldn't afford to concede 1.

I'm sick of hearing excuses, a loss over two legs is a loss however you put it.

We won the second half against stoke earlier in the season to :lol:

[Özim]

We won the second half against stoke earlier in the season to :lol:

You're cherry picking 2nd half results now, anyone can do that for any team.

[Letters]

We're probably the worst kind of team to be for kitchen sink jobs. Wengerball is deeply ingrained, so no matter how urgent the situation is we won't stray too far from tippy tappy. Although maybe that's not a bad thing anyway because the crosses we did eventually start loading in were fucking dreadful.

To be fair Monaco are expert bus parkers, we were pushing forward for the 3rd but it wasn't enough. It was hardly as though we were creating plenty of clear cut chances till we scored the 2nd goal and then stopped, we didn't have that many clear chances the whole game.

[fakeyank]

:yawn:

That's like me saying you'll keep criticising Wenger if we won every game all season and won the quadruple.
If I'm defending him at all, it's because we haven't lost that many games and things aren't as calamitous as you keep making out.
We're a point off 2nd place, we're in the Cup semi-final (we're the current holders, by the way) having beaten Utd in the quarter finals, we should get to the final and could well retain the Cup.
IF we can sustain our recent form over the course of a season then we will challenge seriously next year. We have the squad to now, the question is do we have the mentality? A couple of results recently have indicated maybe we're getting better like that, I agree that the Chelsea result will be telling and we have Liverpool to play too.

Forget everything because we will just go round and round on this today, tomorrow, next year and the year after... just a simple yes or no question to you (please do not elaborate): "Do you think Arsene Wenger is the man to get us consistently challenging for the PL title and also make us a major* force in Europe?

* When I say major, I mean a team that will be disappointed to get Bayern in a draw, but not scared. A team that will be looked by the European power houses as one of the teams to beat.

[Power n Glory]

Look, here are the cold hard facts. In 18 attempts, we've failed to creep past the last sixteen a huge 9 times which is 50% of the time (yeah, maths baby!). We've made one final. Appeared in two semi finals. Qualification 18 times is great but never winning it and rarely qualifying past the dross round tells you all you need to know about Arsene and elite level football. He doesn't cut it.

Le Grove

[Letters]

That's not a fair yes or no question. I can't confidently say yes, he is; neither can I say no, he definitely isn't.
What I would say is I think we're close to a side who can do that and I've seen a few signs recently which give me hope that yes, we will under Wenger over the next few years:

We have started to make more major signings, like Ozil and Sanchez.
We have a better squad than we've had for years.
We won a major trophy last season.
We've won a couple of big away games this season, the sorts of games which we traditionally lose or even get hammered in.
One of those away games was in a Cup Quarter Final - again, the exact sort of game in which we've repeatedly failed. So now we're in a semi-final against a team I believe we'll beat. We could yet retain the FA Cup.


Now. I also recognise that we've had plenty of false dawns previously, but some of the above haven't happened for us for a while. If we do win two cups in two years then it won't have been a bad couple of seasons, despite some of the frustrations. I agree with you that the Chelsea game is significant in terms of beating a Mourinho side. If we do that, finish in the top 3 and win the Cup would it have been such an awful season? Would a manager who achieved that really deserve the ridiculous level of abuse you mete out?

As a club, we need to move on from Wenger if only because of his age. I personally don't think there's any big hurry to do that though.
While the billionaires are allowed to run amok I can't see us dominating like we did in the early noughties under any manager, but I do think we're well placed to challege over the next few years. There may be managers out there who would be better placed to do that for us but I don't think there are many.

[Niall_Quinn]

We have three billionaire "investors" running amok. Difference between ours and the rest is they don't put anything back into the game. Arsenal is a story of structural failure across the board in terms of football. In terms of business and shareholder value we're easily the number one club on the planet, nobody else comes close. That's because this is where all the focus has been placed and this is the prime reason Wenger stays in his job because he delivers year after year. He's the top manager in the world in this respect. This is why nobody questions him, this is why he is allowed to under perform on the pitch because the pitch is not the priority. He never under performs in the primary goal, returning value to shareholders. Why would a shareholder at this club do anything to upset the golden goose?

Even the media plays along with this game - look at what Arsene has done for Arsenal, big new stadium, qualifying for the CL money bonanza every year, self sustaining finances, he must be given more time and more time after that and then more time still. The standard line is it's ridiculous to even question him, an act of disloyalty or ingratitude.

But what does a big new stadium and perpetual qualification for the CL mean for the hard pressed fan who pays world leading ticket prices? It's a convenient high horse we are riding, pointing at the chavs and gypos and laughing off their success because they cheat. Is it them cheating the game or our non-investing investors cheating Arsenal fans though? Yes we have Ozil and Alexis, bought with the fans' and sponsors' cash, not from the pockets of our billionaire club. So let's not say we have world class players because of the board and Wenger. It's not as simple as that.

What it all means is Wenger is going nowhere and is in the luxurious position of being able to write his own terms. Not because he's a top manager. The results tell us he's not that by a long stretch. It's because he's a top accountant who delivers outstanding value to his employers. It's because Arsenal's first priority is profitability. So when we think about other managers who could come in and make a difference we also need to think about what their brief would be. Does the focus remain on profitability? In which case they have their legs chopped out from under them before they start. In such a case Wenger is truly irreplaceable.

It's up to the board. Is it time for us to focus on football yet? After a decade of promises and soaring share values? I don't think so. I don't think they have any regard for the football beyond its utility as a vehicle for profit. That's where our ambition and winning mentality lies, in the balance sheet. Which means we don't have ambition and the winner's mentality on the pitch where it needs to be undiluted. We have a few individual winners who drag us along but it doesn't extend to our manager whose focus is elsewhere. He has said he treats the finances of the club as if they were his own. Why? Why is he even bothered by the finances? What's it to him? Well, it's his job description unlike any other manager in the game.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Le Grove

It's actually 11 times in 17 that we have failed to get to the quarter finals

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Le Grove

It's actually 11 times in 17 that we have failed to get to the quarter finals

[fakeyank]

That's not a fair yes or no question. I can't confidently say yes, he is; neither can I say no, he definitely isn't.

I can definitely say he isnt and thats why I want him gone. Majority on this board think like me. Unfortunately the people who matter think like you.. :(

[Letters]

No, the people who matter do NOT think like me, or you. See NQ's post for how they think.

EDIT: and yes, you can say he definitely isn't, but that doesn't make you right any more than me saying he is would make me right. Neither of us know really. I understand why people don't believe he is, I certainly have doubts myself, but I also see a few signs of hope which I've gone over. I do accept this isn't the first time though.

[fakeyank]

I do not think the board are ONLY worried about money, though that is their chief motivator (like any business person). But I do think their thinking is closely aligned to yours i.e. they think that AW is possibly our best option to becoming a contender at home and in Europe.

I'd prefer a more ruthless board, not a passive one where someone like Wenger can reign on forever without accountability.

[Letters]

I think they see Wenger as the perfect balance - he makes a profit and keeps us relatively competitive thus meaning the CL money keeps rolling in.
He is accountable, but the board's requirements of him are not the same as the fans. Had we been languishing in mid table I reckon he'd have been long gone.

[Letters]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/mar/18/arsenal-arsene-wenger-champions-?CMP=share_btn_tw

[BOBN]

Ive been Wenger In since as far back as January 11, but with these comments I dont know what to say.

But i'll try....what a self-pitying settling shyster.


David Hytner
@DaveHytner
Wednesday 18 March 2015 18.32*GMT Last modified on Wednesday 18 March 2015 19.16*GMT

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Arsène Wenger was so distraught at the finality of Arsenal’s Champions League exit that he wondered whether it might have been better for the club to have dropped down into the Europa League and remained alive in European competition.

The manager offered the bleak and introspective comments in the wake of the last-16 second leg at Monaco, which Arsenal won 2-0 only to exit on away goals. It was the fifth season in succession that Wenger’s team had exited at this stage and, once again, the closing months of their season will be free of European football.

“Maybe it would be better not to advance from the group phase and play the Europa League than be eliminated right away in the last 16,” Wenger said. “We would have more chances to win a title.”

Wenger went on to say that if a club went “out after the group stages, you have no chances after to play again, like you do in the Europa League”.

If Arsenal had finished third, rather than second, in their Champions League group, they would have entered the Europa League and, possibly, fancied themselves to progress in the competition.

Wenger would never want to finish third instead of second in a Champions League group and here was evidence not only of his post-defeat angst but his habit of seeking a target for the frustration in such circumstances.

In the heat of the moment, he found himself alighting upon an unusual one – the second chance that defeated teams in Champions League groups are afforded. Wenger seemed to suggest that it was an unfair quirk that sides who finish third have the opportunity to prolong their European seasons, while teams like his own are finished when they lose.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/mar/18/arsene-wenger-arsenal-europa-league

[Globalgunner]

The deluded one speaks again. What happened the last time we were in the Europa?. Wenger did what he always does, bottles it the moment the whole worlds eyes are on him. He cant win the Europa any more than the CL or the PL. #Specialist in failure.

[Power n Glory]

He's desperate for success in Europe and no matter how many time he tries to play it off as if qualification for the competition is a good record, I suspect he also looks at the flip side of the coin and recognises the failure on each attempt. Sad times.

I feel sorry for him. He needs to really get his act together if he wants the CL title.

[AFC Leveller]

He's desperate for success in Europe and no matter how many time he tries to play it off as if qualification for the competition is a good record, I suspect he also looks at the flip side of the coin and recognises the failure on each attempt. Sad times.

I feel sorry for him. He needs to really get his act together if he wants the CL title.

While his ability to get his teams into the CL every season is impresive, the fact that he has not yet won it (and hasnt looked like winning it) is a dreadful record and something that probably plays on his mind.

We have had better teams then the current one and have faced all sorts of teams in the knockouts from Bayern and Barcelona to Monaco and PSV yet we always fall short.

[Letters]

The side circa 2002-2004 really should have won a CL, it's one of the best club sides I've ever seen.
If he couldn't do it with that team he never will, sadly.

[Marc Overmars]

European football tends to be a lot more methodical and unfortunately I don't think he's ever really got to grips with that. The team of the Cesc era is about as strong as we've been in Europe and even they imploded at the crucial moments. Ironically the weakest domestic season we had also provided the strongest in Europe, getting to the final and all those clean sheets en route. Bit of an anomaly though when you look back.

[WMUG]

The side circa 2002-2004 really should have won a CL, it's one of the best club sides I've ever seen.
If he couldn't do it with that team he never will, sadly.

Wayne Bridge :sick:

[Letters]

Wayne Bridge :sick:

:upset:

PS: Was in York last weekend, you didn't even come and say hello :sulk:

[Munchies]

Wayne Bridge :sick:

at home aswell :doh:

[WMUG]

:upset:

PS: Was in York last weekend, you didn't even come and say hello :sulk:

:lol:

I'm back in London now, term ended in time for the West Ham game. What'd you get up to? Standard Shambles/Minster/Betty's, or something innovative?

[Letters]

:lol:

I'm back in London now, term ended in time for the West Ham game. What'd you get up to? Standard Shambles/Minster/Betty's, or something innovative?

I'd been there before and done the Minster so while we popped in we didn't pay to do the tour. And I'd done the train museum before. But yeah, standard stuff really. Walked along the wall, wandered around, did a boat trip, Jorvik thingy and that Chocolate museum. Nice place.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

So Klopp just announced that he's leaving Dortmund this summer and that he's not planning on taking a "sabbatical either".

How does this change things for you with regards to Wenger if at all?

50/50 for me. I genuinely think we're on the precipice of doing something amazing so risking a manager change at this late stage could seriously jeopardise that however the opportunity to hire a top coach (one bad season doesn't change that) like Klopp doesn't come around that often, especially one with the longevity and who shares similar attributes to Wenger in terms of long-term approach to building a club.

I would absolutely hate to see Klopp at Pool or Citeh .... his style and his philosophy seems tailor made for us.

[Kano]

The pattern is so obvious regarding Wenger. Great start/ending, fuck up elsewhere, so we'll keep chugging along as we are with him in charge. How many seasons do we go, "Well next year will be better" only for it to repeat? The hesitation will always be finding a manager deemed 'secure' enough to carry on where Wenger has left off and Klopp fits the bill better than anyone.

But, it won't happen. The board will stick with Wenger for as long as he decides and the stubborn old fool will continue in ever decreasing circles for the foreseeable future...

[Letters]

We're on our best run since The Invincibles - this isn't just another 'decent run'.
We've finally got a squad that looks like it can compete.
We've won a few of the 'must win' games that we 'always' lose.
We've won a trophy and really should get back to the final, we have a decent chance of winning two major trophies in two seasons.

And you really think we're just 'chugging along' and there are no signs we're heading in the right direction?

[Kano]

Going by our points comparison, no. We're just doing the same as usual. Meaningless win runs that leave us between 2 and 4th offer no comparison to the Invincibles at all. That is just yet another pointless media stat thrown out there.

We've had a squad that can compete a few times. The problem is the manager cannot 'manage' them well enough to get the maximum out of the group. With the money spent, two FA Cups is not enough to justify the expense of this squad and is vastly short of what they should be pushing for. Europe remains a joke - and after 15 or so attempts it's fair to say that is never changing.

Wenger has to go at some point. The club needs to be forward thinking about that change and take on a young manager who could potentially remain in place just as long as Wenger, deliver what they need financially and what the fans desire too. But of course it won't happen. Just fanciful thinking on my part.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

The familiarity to our "title collapses" is definitely a valid point ...... I mean as you say it's either a great start or ending. However, I think it'd be remiss to not acknowledge or appreciate that our improved financial muscle is starting to have an effect. We've improved our squad to such an extent now where really this sort of thing should be a thing of the past. You can point to this season, but there were certainly factors which played a part towards our shit start: the WC, bedding in so many new players, a lack of CB/DM cover (rectified and will hopefully rectify) ........ I'm not sure any manager could have dealt with them.


I'll put my two cents out there: I don't actually think Klopp is a better manager than Wenger. He's got plenty of issues and problems himself however with the Bundesliga being less competitive and "hard" than the PL, he can often get away with them (not this season though). However he's a very good and talented manager who could get better and the opportunity to replace Wenger with a talented manager who shares very similar characteristics doesn't come around that often so I'd also be annoyed if we let it go to waste. Especially if he thens ends up at a Liverpool or Utd and stays there for a decade or two.

It's 50/50 for me but I'm leaning towards Wenger staying atm.

[Letters]

With the money spent, two FA Cups is not enough to justify the expense of this squad.
Not over 10 years, I agree. I think we can all agree that over the last 10 years Wenger hasn't done well enough with the resources at his disposal. That said, we did have the triple whammy of the stadium debt, the billionaire cheats and poor commercial deals - secured to ensure the stadium repayments and good at the time, but we tied ourselves in for too long and lost out longer term. Easy to have 20:20 hindsight about that.

Now we have new commercial deals in place and the stadium debt is paid off, or getting there, Wenger has started spending more. The sorts of players we're signing - Cazorla, Ozil and Sanchez - is a level above the players we signed before that. If we win two cups in two years - having thought, especially after the Birmingham debacle, that under Wenger we'd never win another trophy - and get a similar number of points to what we got last year (which was the most since 2007/8) then IMO it would show we're on an upward curve. It didn't look like it early season, granted, but you judge a season at the end, not in the middle.

I don't think we've had a squad quite this good for a long time. And I see the result at Old Trafford as significant - it's the sort of game which we 'always' lose and 'never' show up in. Well this time we did show up, we were superb, and we got the result. And we thumped Liverpool recently in a game which, had we lost, they'd have been right on our tail. Again, the sort of game we 'always' lose.

FY said earlier in this thread that he saw the Chelsea game as significant. I see that as a bore draw - Mourinho will come and park the bus, come for a draw and probably get one. If we could win that though then, although it would be all for naught, it would be another little monkey off our back in terms of beating a Mourinho side.

Wenger does need to go at some point, but is that point when we're finally building up a bit of momentum?

[Niall_Quinn]

None of that touches on Wenger's glaring tactical deficiencies which are the main reason we haven't competed more effectively with the resources we've had, depleted or otherwise. Wenger's mentality isn't mentioned either. He's become way too cautious to ever challenge for the top again. It's not impossible we could do a Liverpool and snag a title (almost) on the back of everyone else being shit. But we'd have no chance of retaining it. There's a difference between a Liverpool or Utd dynasty and an up and down cash machine like the gypos. We were somewhere in-between during Wenger's good years. His philosophy was better then. He was more expansive in his style. Now he brings on Flamini and sets up to scrap it out with Burnley because he values the 3 points more than the football. It doesn't suit him and it hasn't worked in ten years of trying.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

I agree Letters. It'd be a shame to jeopardise or risk all the work we've put in to get to this point by bringing in a new guy at this stage.

The thing that worries me about Klopp I have to admit is that he doesn't have a good track record of building successive great teams like say a Wenger, Ancelotti or SAF have. He built one amazing team at Dortmund (which got to the CL final and won the league a couple of times) but after that was dismantled he's struggled as evidenced by how awful they've been this year. And let's not forget he prior to that he relegated Mainz and couldn't get them promoted back the following season.

Plus for all the talk of Wenger's lack of flexibility in terms of adapting the team's playing style I'd actually argue that Klopp's a lot worse at that. He seems to have only one setting (high pressing transition football) which when it get's figured out, he doesn't have a counter for it. It also results in players getting over stretched and subsequently picking up a lot of injuries.

Granted like I said in my previous post he's extremely talented but don't be fooled; going with Klopp would be a massive risk; there's the potential for it to fail spectacularly as well.

[Marc Overmars]

I surprised people still have the breath to talk about this topic. It's the same every season, good start/poor finish or vice versa. The perception is skewed and the reality is we're no closer to winning the league again and this time don't have the excuse of not having sufficient money to spend.

Flopped hard in Europe once more but sit pretty in the top 4 ready to go again for next season. Granted probably making the cup final again and chalking up a couple of rare wins is great but I'm not going to believe we'll challenge seriously for the league again under Wenger until I see it.

Having said all that, I love the bloke and I just don't care anymore about wanting him to stay or go. He'll go when he's had enough, I just hope he leaves with his legacy stronger than ever.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Jeremy Wilson who's one of those journalists with good sources at the club (alongside Ornstein, John Cross and Amy Lawrence) says that we're not interested at all in Klopp.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/11537572/Arsenal-rule-out-move-for-Jurgen-Klopp.html




Arsenal rule out move for Jurgen Klopp
Arsene Wenger secure in post at Emirates Stadium despite German coach being poised to quit Borussia Dortmund at the end of the season


Arsenal remain certain that Arsene Wenger will lead them forward for at least the remaining two years of his contract, despite news of Jurgen Klopp’s expected departure from Borussia Dortmund.

With Arsenal currently second in the Premier League and Wenger aiming to set a modern-day record this season of six FA Cup wins, there is considerable optimism at the Emirates Stadium about the future.

Klopp has been seen by some as a potential successor to Wenger but the timing of his reported departure from Dortmund means that there is no prospect of Arsenal now making any move for his services.

Arsenal have given thought to how they would deal with the succession to Wenger but that is only in their long-term planning and they believe that their manager is as committed, focused and driven as ever.They also believe that the team has progressed considerably over the past two years and are ready to back him this summer with a transfer budget of around £50 million.

A holding midfielder, defender and possibly a goalkeeper will be the focus for Arsenal’s scouting department but Wenger has been a long-time admirer of Dortmund forward Marco Reus and the departure of Klopp would also make his future less clear.


Oh well, that's that then. :getcoat:

[Power n Glory]

Let's hope Klopp doesn't end up at City.

[Niall_Quinn]

Jeremy Wilson who's one of those journalists with good sources at the club (alongside Ornstein, John Cross and Amy Lawrence) says that we're not interested at all in Klopp.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/11537572/Arsenal-rule-out-move-for-Jurgen-Klopp.html




Oh well, that's that then. :getcoat:

Damn. That was quick and it tells us a lot. Then again it could be a journo taking a punt.

Even so, if all the tight bastards are giving him is £50mill after 10 years of waiting and selling our best players then basically - fuck them. Greedy bastards. So much for the improved sponsorship deals.

Does that mean ticket prices will be going down? Or they'll stick with a kit for more than one season? Does it mean pigs will be flying?

[mr_brighterside]

£50m would probably only enable us to stand still rather than improve with united, citeh, the spuds and others bound to spend a lot and perhaps more than that

given wengers ample time and resources he's been given anything less than 2nd and I think he should go.

[rodders]

Players still prefer to go to Man U, Chelsea etc. Will believe in Wenger if he can out think Chelsea and Man U tactically in forthcoming fixtures.

[Globalgunner]

Coming 3rd, 2nd or 4th is all the same. Letters flops about depending on our current trajectory. 3 months ago we were almost universal that he should leave. Now after a good run where we are literally 10 points behind Chelsea, out of the CL again. We are hearing how it might be best to stick with a 65 year old, who makes the same mistakes each season. If serendipity hadn't crocked Arteta and given Coquelin a chance, we would still have an immobile DM who can't tackle marshaling our midfield. Wenger will only give a superior player a chance after the inferior player is crocked. We have beaten City, who we can see are the equivalent of a neutered racehorse. But can we beat United and Chelsea and confirm that next season we will be in the running. The reality is that we have to plan for a future without Wenger. Question is do we have to put up with another 5 seasons of no CL trophy and no PL winning just because we are risk averse. No manager guarantees success. Wenger however only guarantees 4th place or slightly better. If we get humbled by either rubbish Chelsea or dogshit United, Letters will be back reluctantly agreeing that Wenger should go, only if the son of God can be tempted to replace him. Anyone else would be a risk.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2nd isn't the same, that wouldn't be fair to say that. We haven't finished second for 10 years after all. :lol:

Still unsure where I stand on this now, it's going to be the old goat's last contract anyway.

[fakeyank]

Coming 3rd, 2nd or 4th is all the same. Letters flops about depending on our current trajectory. 3 months ago we were almost universal that he should leave. Now after a good run where we are literally 10 points behind Chelsea, out of the CL again. We are hearing how it might be best to stick with a 65 year old, who makes the same mistakes each season. If serendipity hadn't crocked Arteta and given Coquelin a chance, we would still have an immobile DM who can't tackle marshaling our midfield. Wenger will only give a superior player a chance after the inferior player is crocked. We have beaten City, who we can see are the equivalent of a neutered racehorse. But can we beat United and Chelsea and confirm that next season we will be in the running. The reality is that we have to plan for a future without Wenger. Question is do we have to put up with another 5 seasons of no CL trophy and no PL winning just because we are risk averse. No manager guarantees success. Wenger however only guarantees 4th place or slightly better. If we get humbled by either rubbish Chelsea or dogshit United, Letters will be back reluctantly agreeing that Wenger should go, only if the son of God can be tempted to replace him. Anyone else would be a risk.

:gp:

We are still nowhere near challenging for the PL trophy. Just because other teams are dogshite does not take away the fact that the season as a whole has been dismal (as usual). I would still give Wenger more time IF he beats Chelsea and wins the FA Cup... the former is more important than winning the FA Cup. You beat a Mourinho team that is fighting for the title and I can give Wenger some credit. Other than that, this little 8 game winning run does nothing for me. We have similar runs almost every season. :rolleyes:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Geez, I don't agree with Letters, but he is entitled to his opinion.

I am however amazed how much he and some others can watch what pretty much mirrors the pattern of previous years and still cling on to the hope that it will be somehow different next season.

I'm not convinced Klopp is the answer, but I'd love to take a punt on him regardless - if only for the prospect of something different.

[Letters]

I've explained till I'm blue in the face why I don't think this run just mirrors the pattern of previous years.
I've not seen anyone actually respond sensibly to those points.

[Letters]

If we get humbled by either rubbish Chelsea or dogshit United.
...hang on, are you calling the champions elect 'rubbish'? :blink:
As for Utd, we've already beaten them away, in one of those games we 'always' lose in, 'always' choke in. One of only 3 home games they've lost all season by the way, so hardly 'dogshit'

If we get thumped in either game then it will change my opinion, just as this current run has changed my opinion. I have explained why, and the differences I see between this and other good runs. FY predicted people would waver if we went on a decent run, but firstly I don't think you can dismiss 17 wins out of 20 as just another decent run, and secondly why shouldn't people reassess their opinions in the light of new events? If I don't rate a certain player and the player starts to consistently perform better then I should reassess my opinion, not frantically move goalposts and stubbornly declare myself right all along.

[Letters]

Other than that, this little 8 game winning run does nothing for me. We have similar runs almost every season. :rolleyes:No. No we don't :doh:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Do we need to spend more than 50 million in the summer anyway?

[Niall_Quinn]

Do we need to spend more than 50 million in the summer anyway?

Maybe not, but there should be more than that available to him if he needs it. Basically this will be half or a third of what the mancs clubs and the chavs will have available. Wages as well as fees remember. It doesn't mean we can't attract decent players, but it does mean we're still out of the hunt for the very best and will have to queue behind the usual lot who will get first pick. Mind you, they aren't exactly geniuses in the scouting shops at our rivals. Di Maria, Falcao, Mangala, etc when they could have had Alexis? LOL.

[Letters]

We have beaten City, who we can see are the equivalent of a neutered racehorse.
When we played them they were 5 points behind Chelsea with a game in hand. We were the game in hand.
Their league home results to that point were W7 D2 L1. And of their previous 12 league games they'd won 9 and drawn 3.
But yeah, let's dismiss the win up there if it suits your agenda.

I want to pick FY up again on his 'little 8 game winning run'. That 'little' run is the best run anyone has put together this season. And it comes at the end of a bigger run of winning 17 out of 20 games in all competitions. A run which has seen us haul ourselves from 7th to 2nd in the table and get us to the FA Cup semi-final, beating Utd away on the way. To dismiss that as just another good run like we see every season is ridiculous.

[Power n Glory]

I've explained till I'm blue in the face why I don't think this run just mirrors the pattern of previous years.
I've not seen anyone actually respond sensibly to those points.

Plenty have responded sensibly. A good run is just a good run. It’s that simple. We’re performing well and it’s enjoyable to watch but we have no pressure on us. The statistics will vary from season to season but we’ve always mustered up a good run from somewhere after being written off in the league.

[Letters]

Had we lost to Utd away or Liverpool at home (or any game recently, actually) then without a doubt people on here would have been saying we bottled it. Those two games in particular were the exact type of games that people on here say we 'always' lose or bottle it in. We win those games and it's "Meh, we have no pressure on us".
That is exactly the goalpost shifting I mentioned above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

:shrug:

We haven't been on a run this good since The Invincibles. No-one else has been on a run this good this year at all.
When was the last time we won 17 out of 20 in all competitions?
When was the last time we beat Utd away in a big game when it really mattered?

[Power n Glory]

Had we lost to Utd away or Liverpool at home (or any game recently, actually) then without a doubt people on here would have been saying we bottled it. Those two games in particular were the exact type of games that people on here say we 'always' lose or bottle it in. We win those games and it's "Meh, we have no pressure on us".

:shrug:

We haven't been on a run this good since The Invincibles. No-one else has been on a run this good this year at all.
When was the last time we won 17 out of 20 in all competitions?

I think your overly concerned about GW perception and assume the posters that hold that view speak for everyone on the board. I’ve said this before, but we shouldn’t be looking at wins against big rivals as some sort of indicator of progress. That’s what Spurs fan do all the time when trying to convince themselves the balance of power is changing. Anyone that holds the Utd and Liverpool games up as significant landmarks are just as misguided as yourself with this winning streak stat. We’ve had seasons where we’ve beaten some really good teams and we’ve had seasons where we’ve gone on aa really good run. I’m not sure about 17 wins out of 20, but it’s irrelevant because when it comes to the crunch and we’re leading in the title race, we have buckled under the pressure. Champs League knock out phase, we crumble. Until we overcome that I can’t read too much into one game or a good streak of wins.

Also, it’s been said before plenty of times, but I don’t know if we’d even hit this steak if it weren’t for injuries to Arteta, Flamini, Wilshire and Ramsey. That forced him to recall Coquelin whose been essential to this rival and also meant Cazorla and Ozil were back playing in their favoured position. I don’t like the fact that it’s taken injuries to force Wenger’s hand and play certain players in their favoured position and to their strength. The fact that we now have a bigger team can be a blessing and curse because he may not know his best team or who to pick. Fitness selected this current team and not the manager. That’s another question mark lingering for us next season. When we have a fully fit team, will Wenger know who to pick and where to play them.

[Letters]

we shouldn’t be looking at wins against big rivals as some sort of indicator of progress.
I agree with a lot of your post, and I agree with this part to an extent - we went through a phase years ago when we weren't that good a side but we did raise it for the big games and often got good results in them but overall we weren't much good. But I do see that Utd game as significant because it was a cup quarter final. You can't sensibly say there's no pressure in that scenario.

We need to finish the job in the Cup. We really should win on Saturday, the Final is all on the day, especially if it's Liverpool, but we've shown we've got nothing to fear from them. If we do that (I don't care as much about 2nd place, it would be nice but I'd rather have a trophy) then two trophies in two years gives us some momentum.

[Power n Glory]

I agree with a lot of your post, and I agree with this part to an extent - we went through a phase years ago when we weren't that good a side but we did raise it for the big games and often got good results in them but overall we weren't much good. But I do see that Utd game as significant because it was a cup quarter final. You can't sensibly say there's no pressure in that scenario.

We need to finish the job in the Cup. We really should win on Saturday, the Final is all on the day, especially if it's Liverpool, but we've shown we've got nothing to fear from them. If we do that (I don't care as much about 2nd place, it would be nice but I'd rather have a trophy) then two trophies in two years gives us some momentum.

Do Man Utd still strike fear in your heart? They’re just Man Utd in name. I wouldn’t hold them up as that team to beat these days. We should have put the whooping on them last season under Moyes. Hold that up as sign of improvement if you want, but I won’t because that result came not so long after us losing 3-1 to Monaco. I know if Wenger could swap the results for those ties, he’d do it in a heartbeat.

[fakeyank]

No. No we don't :doh:

You serious?! I (and other posters) have given you multiple examples of similar runs. At least, there are people with the decency to accept when they are wrong. You are just going on and on about something that has been proven by facts. What are you smoking or drinking or injecting?

[Maestro]

Unfortunately we've had one too many false dawns and some real disappointments. The only measure of success or progress left and acceptable to most fans, is delivering the title.

Thierry was asked that very question in the studio last weekend I think, "what constitutes a successful season for arsenal? would it be a successful season if arsenal finished in the top four and won the FA Cup?"

His answer: "no that would not be a success. success for arsenal should be winning the title, anything less is not good enough"

Sadly Wenget does not share that mentality, along with some fans. The FA Cup is nice and a good trophy to win, but there is no way anyone is going to convince me it's a major trophy. So could this team win the title, ....yes I think so .....with Wenger in charge? ....doubt that very much.

Anyway this particular debate is now redundant, coz he's not going anywhere until "he" decides to.

[Globalgunner]

Unfortunately we've had one too many false dawns and some real disappointments. The only measure of success or progress left and acceptable to most fans, is delivering the title.

Thierry was asked that very question in the studio last weekend I think, "what constitutes a successful season for arsenal? would it be a successful season if arsenal finished in the top four and won the FA Cup?"

His answer: "no that would not be a success. success for arsenal should be winning the title, anything less is not good enough"

Sadly Wenget does not share that mentality, along with some fans. The FA Cup is nice and a good trophy to win, but there is no way anyone is going to convince me it's a major trophy. So couldd this team win the title, ....yes I think so .....with Wenger in charge? ....doubt that very much.

Anyway this particular debate is now redundant, coz he's not going anywhere until "he" decides to.

Good post
The reason I get so aggro with Letters is that his default position is:. Defend Wenger at all costs. There is always reason to be hopeful with him. We start each season with the means and tools to win all 4 comps we are in. By March we are usually out of all of them and still we keep saying, we can build on this. I do believe beating Chelsea is a major psychological hurdle for this team and especially for the manager, because in reality, Chelsea are not all that. Teams in the same league who do not suffer the same mental block as Wenger has against Mourinho, give Chelsea a harder game than we ever do. We could go there and lose 1-0 or 2-1, but I want to see a game between equals. Not one where we end up looking like talented mugs who have been duped by a lesser combatant. Same with United, we played them at home, were all over them and ended up looking like nitwits again. We beat them in the FA cup, they are on a run, so are we. If we meet it may be for 2nd place, so the pressure will be on again. We all know how well we usually cope with pressure, eg CL at home against Monaco. There is no point bigging up your competition, if you cant go toe to toe with them, then they really arent your competition. The FA cup is nice but is nothing really compared to the league or CL.

[Letters]

You serious?! I (and other posters) have given you multiple examples of similar runs.

None of them have been similar. This is the best run since The Invincibles.

[Letters]

You serious?! I (and other posters) have given you multiple examples of similar runs.

None of them have been similar. This is the best run since The Invincibles, and the best run anyone has put together this season. And comes at the end of a run of 17 wins out of 20. Again, we haven't done anything close to that since The Invincibles. Long unbeaten runs with quite a few draws in really don't compare...unless it suits your agenda.

[Niall_Quinn]

None of them have been similar. This is the best run since The Invincibles, and the best run anyone has put together this season. And comes at the end of a run of 17 wins out of 20. Again, we haven't done anything close to that since The Invincibles. Long unbeaten runs with quite a few draws in really don't compare...unless it suits your agenda.

We haven't had a squad as strong as this since the Invincibles. It's the players, not the manager. They win despite him.

[Niall_Quinn]

Unfortunately we've had one too many false dawns and some real disappointments. The only measure of success or progress left and acceptable to most fans, is delivering the title.

Thierry was asked that very question in the studio last weekend I think, "what constitutes a successful season for arsenal? would it be a successful season if arsenal finished in the top four and won the FA Cup?"

His answer: "no that would not be a success. success for arsenal should be winning the title, anything less is not good enough"

Sadly Wenget does not share that mentality, along with some fans. The FA Cup is nice and a good trophy to win, but there is no way anyone is going to convince me it's a major trophy. So could this team win the title, ....yes I think so .....with Wenger in charge? ....doubt that very much.

Anyway this particular debate is now redundant, coz he's not going anywhere until "he" decides to.

The real worry is he'll nominate his replacement, somebody like Alan Greenspan or Eddie George's corpse.

[Letters]

Do Man Utd still strike fear in your heart?.
They never have. But is is a tough place to go, they've only lost at home 3 times all season.
It's somewhere we've repeatedly failed and it was a cup quarter final.

It's exactly the sort of game we've repeatedy failed in before but some people on here seem to define a high pressure game as one we lose, and bend over backwards to dismiss results like this.

[Letters]

We haven't had a squad as strong as this since the Invincibles. It's the players, not the manager. They win despite him.

Then what were they playing at early season? And who buys and trains the players?
Wenger is responsible for results, good or bad.

[Letters]

The reason I get so aggro with Letters is that his default position is:. Defend Wenger at all costs. There is always reason to be hopeful with him.
Well, no. For much of this season I've been firmly in the 'Wenger Out' camp and said so repeatedly. 4 wins in our first 12 league games was disgraceful. Ultimately though, a season should be judged at the end and you have to give some credit where it's due and acknowledge that we've turned it round, gone on a fantastic run and hauled ourselves into 2nd place and the Cup Semi-Final. If we finish the job then Wenger deserves credit for that.

I'm constantly bemused that I'm sneered at on here for reconsidering my position in the light of new events. To me that makes more logical sense than stubbornly sticking to a view no matter what happens.


We start each season with the means and tools to win all 4 comps we are in. By March we are usually out of all of them and still we keep saying, we can build on this.
We weren't last year, we won the Cup. This year we're back in the semi-final and really should get to the final.
Are you suggesting that we weren't under pressure in the Cup quarter final at Old Trafford? I would suggest there was more pressure in that game than Monaco at home. A lesser competition but a later stage of it and a one off game rather than a two legged tie.

[Niall_Quinn]

Then what were they playing at early season? And who buys and trains the players?
Wenger is responsible for results, good or bad.

Can't fault his activity in the transfer market recently. But Wenger's ability to use those players to the best advantage is deeply suspect. Injuries and luck (plus the desire of players like Coquelin) has helped Wenger out hugely. He still makes his silly subs though, still goes defensive when we should be on the front foot, still takes opponents for granted. All the flaws are still there, don't be fooled otherwise.

[Letters]

Oh yeah, the defensive 4-1 win vs Liverpool.
What a bumbling idiot :angry:

[Niall_Quinn]

Oh yeah, the defensive 4-1 win vs Liverpool.
What a bumbling idiot :angry:

Didn't say it was defensive, I said he took his foot off the gas when we were under zero threat and by doing so created the threat he was trying to avoid. Then you take the Monaco game where he admits the team wasn't prepared for the first leg, in other words the result was taken for granted. You could say it was a one off but look back over the seasons and you see it happening time and time again. He's a good manager, the best in some respects. But he's average and sometimes woeful tactically and he has a stubborn streak that prevents him learning key lessons. That said, his stubborn streak sometimes helps us too, like when he stuck with Ramsey when just about everyone was on the kid's back. An infuriating man that has a huge amount of resources at his disposal but remains 98% efficient at using them when it's the 100% effort that wins the big prizes.

[fakeyank]

None of them have been similar. This is the best run since The Invincibles, and the best run anyone has put together this season. And comes at the end of a run of 17 wins out of 20. Again, we haven't done anything close to that since The Invincibles. Long unbeaten runs with quite a few draws in really don't compare...unless it suits your agenda.

This is all PL stats below:

2007/08 season, in our first 15 games, this was our record before our first loss: P15 W11 D4

2008/09 season, after losing 5 games by the end of November, our record till the end of the season was P24 W13 D10 L1

2009/10 season, after our loss to chelsea at home 0-3, our record till our next loss was P10 W7 D3. We then lost 2 games in succession and then went on another run. This run was P8 W7 D1.

We always have unbeaten runs. 2009/10 had a lot of draws but look at the others (especially 07/08), what makes you think this is even close to the invincibles?! The above stats look even better when you pepper in random token wins in the FA Cup, Carling Cup and CL Group stages, but frankly I didnt want to put the time and effort to prove an already known point.

To say that this is the best run since the Invincibles is an absurd statement to make when we lost to Tottenham as recently as February!! You really are acting a WUM on this one and you know it. There is no point going further on this tbh..

[mr_brighterside]

Do we need to spend more than 50 million in the summer anyway?

a keeper
a centre back
seven or eight more attacking midfielders, just in case
a striker

probably :coffee:

[Power n Glory]

This is all PL stats below:

2007/08 season, in our first 15 games, this was our record before our first loss: P15 W11 D4

2008/09 season, after losing 5 games by the end of November, our record till the end of the season was P24 W13 D10 L1

2009/10 season, after our loss to chelsea at home 0-3, our record till our next loss was P10 W7 D3. We then lost 2 games in succession and then went on another run. This run was P8 W7 D1.

We always have unbeaten runs. 2009/10 had a lot of draws but look at the others (especially 07/08), what makes you think this is even close to the invincibles?! The above stats look even better when you pepper in random token wins in the FA Cup, Carling Cup and CL Group stages, but frankly I didnt want to put the time and effort to prove an already known point.

To say that this is the best run since the Invincibles is an absurd statement to make when we lost to Tottenham as recently as February!! You really are acting a WUM on this one and you know it. There is no point going further on this tbh..

:gp:

[Letters]

Only one of those runs is anywhere near what we've done this year, and that's 2007/8 which is when we really should have won the title, might well have done had the Eduardo thing not happened. We've shown we can go on sustained runs of title winning form, we've shown we can win big games at the crunch time of the season, we've shown we can win trophies again under Wenger and we finally have a squad that can compete, not just a first 11. Questions remain about us sustaining a title challenge but I reckon only Chelsea fans would refuse to swap positions with us right now. But yeah, Wenger's an idiot who gets paid blah blah blah... :blah:


All that said, this run IS meaningless if we fail to finish the job. We have to win the cup. I'm less bothered about finishing 2nd although it would be a boost psychologically and stop the 4th place trophy nonsense.

[Power n Glory]

All that said, this run IS meaningless if we fail to finish the job.

Which is why that silly stat is pointless. We could end the season with less points than what we finished on last year but come 2nd instead of 4th. No point in putting much stock in the stats.

[fakeyank]

Only one of those runs is anywhere near what we've done this year, and that's 2007/8 which is when we really should have won the title, might well have done had the Eduardo thing not happened. We've shown we can go on sustained runs of title winning form, we've shown we can win big games at the crunch time of the season, we've shown we can win trophies again under Wenger and we finally have a squad that can compete, not just a first 11. Questions remain about us sustaining a title challenge but I reckon only Chelsea fans would refuse to swap positions with us right now. But yeah, Wenger's an idiot who gets paid blah blah blah... :blah:


All that said, this run IS meaningless if we fail to finish the job. We have to win the cup. I'm less bothered about finishing 2nd although it would be a boost psychologically and stop the 4th place trophy nonsense.

How is the second run in 09/10 of 7 wins and 1 draw just not as good? And how on earth is this anywhere close to the Invincibles?!! :haha:

Wenger's done ok this season and I think he will deserve a chance if we win the cup and beat Chelsea, but to pretend like this run is the best thing since sliced bread is laughable!

[Globalgunner]

The bottom line for me is that we are a club who should be winning titles and the occasional CL, even Porto can boast of a few. That is where we are supposed to be as a club and where we claim we want to be. Winning runs w/o trophies are meaningless. We are not the Spuds, we need to challenge consistently. Wenger has stolen nobodys Teddy bear as far as I can tell, so no we don't hate him. Just wish he would do the needful, much of which seems pretty obvious to most of us.

[Letters]

How is the second run in 09/10 of 7 wins and 1 draw just not as good?
Because I'm talking about the extended run of 17 wins out of 20. 8 wins in a row, while impressive, would be less so after an indifferent run. But I do agree this run has to lead somewhere, and the somewhere should be a trophy. I'm more bothered about the Cup than beating Chelsea. Both would be nice but Mourinho will come and park the bus, I do see te psychological value in Wenger finally beating a Mourinho side but retaining the Cup would give us more momentum going into next season.

[Niall_Quinn]

I do see te psychological value in Wenger finally beating a Mourinho side but retaining the Cup would give us more momentum going into next season.

Like the momentum last year's win gave us leading up to the disastrous opening this season?

The FA Cup is a fun day out but meaningless in terms of measuring a club's overall performance levels. That's the whole point of the cup, one-off games, giant killers, teams and players playing above themselves. You can't judge anything by it and it's not worth anything compared to the big prizes.

Screw the psychological value of beating Maureen's drone army, the psychology should be in the bag already or Wenger isn't doing his job. We need to catch them and overtake them to win the title and that's the only thing we should be focused on. Everyone gets paid a fortune to win so let's go and do that. The chavs will be doing the same. If we come off that pitch and we've stood toe to to with them and given them a proper game then fair enough. Any thing less is a disgrace. It's the biggest match of the season and the cup pales into total insignificance by comparison. Then the match after the chav game will be the biggest game of the season, all the way through to the line. If we take maximum points from all of them we'll win the league. If we drop a single point anywhere we'll be losers again.

Everyone deserves a degree of credit for putting together a good run at the business end of the season. But not too much credit because that's what we should be doing anyway. The real credit comes if we make a fist of challenging for this title. That's when we'll know things have changed.

[Maestro]

Like the momentum last year's win gave us leading up to the disastrous opening this season?

The FA Cup is a fun day out but meaningless in terms of measuring a club's overall performance levels. That's the whole point of the cup, one-off games, giant killers, teams and players playing above themselves. You can't judge anything by it and it's not worth anything compared to the big prizes.

Screw the psychological value of beating Maureen's drone army, the psychology should be in the bag already or Wenger isn't doing his job. We need to catch them and overtake them to win the title and that's the only thing we should be focused on. Everyone gets paid a fortune to win so let's go and do that. The chavs will be doing the same. If we come off that pitch and we've stood toe to to with them and given them a proper game then fair enough. Any thing less is a disgrace. It's the biggest match of the season and the cup pales into total insignificance by comparison. Then the match after the chav game will be the biggest game of the season, all the way through to the line. If we take maximum points from all of them we'll win the league. If we drop a single point anywhere we'll be losers again.

Everyone deserves a degree of credit for putting together a good run at the business end of the season. But not too much credit because that's what we should be doing anyway. The real credit comes if we make a fist of challenging for this title. That's when we'll know things have changed.

Well said, and the title is all that matters.....anything less is no success, and the FA Cup is not a major trophy.

[Letters]

Like the momentum last year's win gave us leading up to the disastrous opening this season?
:lol: that is a pretty good point. I'm still not sure how we managed to be so awful at the start of this season, but I'd still rather go into next season having had 2 pretty decent seasons in a row which, if we retain the cup, this will have been. If we finish 2nd better still but I'd rather have a trophy. I don't agree the FA Cup is meaningless. It is still a major trophy. It has been devalued by the Champions League but the final still has a huge global audience and it's still taken seriously by the big clubs. I'd liked us to have beaten Birmingham in the league cup final but had we done so it wouldn't have felt the same as last season's FA Cup.

We certainly need to try to catch Chelsea but IMO the last glimmer of hope there was their jammy late goal vs RPQ. They now only need 4 wins from 7 games and while they do have a tough run in they do have 4 games against cannon fodder. We already have made a fist of challenging by putting together a run which has made the chavs look over their shoulder. We need to keep that going but the title is in their hands, not ours.

[LDG]

Fuck it! I'm pissed!

Wenger IN!!

At least he's one of us!

Look at the rest of the world of football! It's like the election!

Knowing our luck we'll end up with fucking Ed Middlebrand.

[Niall_Quinn]

Fuck it! I'm pissed!

:gp:

[LDG]

:gp:

:gp:

[Letters]

Fuck it! I'm pissed!

Wenger IN!!

At least he's one of us!

Look at the rest of the world of football! It's like the election!

Knowing our luck we'll end up with fucking Ed Middlebrand.

:haha:

Drunk LDG :bow:

[Maestro]

Throw the bank at Atletico Madrid and get Diego Simeone

One can but dream

[fakeyank]

:gp:

[milla]

Fuck it! I'm pissed!

Wenger IN!!

At least he's one of us!

Look at the rest of the world of football! It's like the election!

Knowing our luck we'll end up with fucking Ed Middlebrand.

:faint:

:haha:

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Simeone can't speak a word of English and I'm not sure if he could do well at a big team; so far his success has come in from playing the "underdog" card.

Plus the football would be absolutely dire. Mourinho tier bad every game, though he's obviously a lot more justified in it considering the size and resources of Athletico compared to Barca and Real.

I'm also starting to get a few doubts about Pep as well. People think Wenger's too idealistic and stubborn but this guy takes the biscuit when it comes to that.

It's got to be Klopp if Wenger decides to call it a day or is forced out.

[fakeyank]

Athletico dont play dire football. They play good football but shut the barn door when playing the big boys.. I see nothing wrong with that, if we get results.

I am not a big fan of Pep either.. I think his success is built on teams who have world class players throughout the pitch. Dont think he will suit us.

I'd take Klopp, Martinez, Koeman or any up and coming manager over Wenger. IMO, we dont necessarily need to bring in someone who has won something, as long as they can show that they can motivate the team and have proper tactics.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Shutting the barn door is something we would do well learning a thing or two about.

[Letters]

I'd take Klopp, Martinez, Koeman or any up and coming manager over Wenger. IMO, we dont necessarily need to bring in someone who has won something, as long as they can show that they can motivate the team and have proper tactics.

Would absolutely love to see your posts on here if we had a season like Dortmund have had under Klopp this year.
Rock bottom after 19 games.
P19 W4 D4 L11 F18 A27
They've done better since but they're still nearer the relegation zone than the top 4.

[Kano]

Would absolutely love to see your posts on here if we had a season like Dortmund have had under Klopp this year.
Rock bottom after 19 games.
P19 W4 D4 L11 F18 A27
They've done better since but they're still nearer the relegation zone than the top 4.

They're 3 points off a Euorpa league place which would be fifth. You have often cited evaluating periods rather than singular seasons as a way of assessing performance and I think when you do that with Klopp over the past five years you'd see a very talented manager. One not so easy to dismiss. Who knows if he'd work out but he ticks a lot of the right boxes for the fans. If you don't think someone like this could be a successor now or in two seasons time, then who would do you think would be a safer bet, post-Wenger?

[Power n Glory]

Letter's is full of shit with the stats. I doubt he follows Dortmund or Bundesliga and if this were Wenger's record, he'd be pointing out Dortmund's climb from the bottom to 7th and in touching distance of Europe as progress. Some bullshit stat with their last 10 games away or home record that makes it look more favourable. ;)

And don't ask him who he thinks would be a good successor because I doubt he watches enough leagues outside of the Prem to come up with an answer.

[milla]

Letter's is full of shit with the stats. I doubt he follows Dortmund or Bundesliga and if this were Wenger's record, he'd be pointing out Dortmund's climb from the bottom to 7th and in touching distance of Europe as progress. Some bullshit stat with their last 10 games away or home record that makes it look more favourable. ;)

And don't ask him who he thinks would be a good successor because I doubt he watches enough leagues outside of the Prem to come up with an answer.

Very true, especially with the bold part. :haha:

Klopp is probably the best proven young manager out there. What he did for Dortmund in the past 7-8 years is astonishing, from nearly bankrupt to one of the biggest clubs in the world. I:coffee:

[Maestro]

Letter's is full of shit with the stats. I doubt he follows Dortmund or Bundesliga and if this were Wenger's record, he'd be pointing out Dortmund's climb from the bottom to 7th and in touching distance of Europe as progress. Some bullshit stat with their last 10 games away or home record that makes it look more favourable. ;)

And don't ask him who he thinks would be a good successor because I doubt he watches enough leagues outside of the Prem to come up with an answer.

:haha::haha::haha::haha:

[Letters]

What he did for Dortmund in the past 7-8 years is astonishing, from nearly bankrupt to one of the biggest clubs in the world. I:coffee:

It's certainly astonishing how he took the champions of Germany and had them fighting off relegation within 3 years.





:coffee:

[Letters]

Letter's is full of shit with the stats. I doubt he follows Dortmund or Bundesliga and if this were Wenger's record, he'd be pointing out Dortmund's climb from the bottom to 7th and in touching distance of Europe as progress. Some bullshit stat with their last 10 games away or home record that makes it look more favourable. ;)
Well no, if this were Wenger's record this season I'd expect him to be sacked. But it isn't Wenger's record this season, is it? In fact Wenger has never had a season that poor for Arsenal. We had a shaky start but we were never below 8th. And there were banners in the ground demanding his head. And now we're guaranteed a top 4 finish and we're in the Cup Final. Dortmund finished 2nd the last two years, miles and miles behind the champions though, and this year they've spent much of the season fighting relegation.
But yeah, Wenger's an idiot and Klopp is miles better :lol:


And don't ask him who he thinks would be a good successor because I doubt he watches enough leagues outside of the Prem to come up with an answer.
That much is true. I don't. But I can look up how some of the names that get bandied around on here are doing. The fact is any manager is a risk. No manager is guaranteed to succeed. That is no reason not to change managers of course, at some point we have to. But it's hilarious how most of the names mentioned on here have crashed and burned after flash in the pan success and how some of you judge other managers by completely different criteria than you do Wenger.

[Kano]

Ok, you seem to know that most of the 'names' mentioned on here have faded away. Who are the others that haven't who are worth trying out? You're alluding to knowing a list of names built up by people on here, aware that some have failed, so there must be one or two that you've heard of that still have their credentials intact. Otherwise you'd say all the managers mentions have crash and burned.

I'm asking again because your reaction to Klopp seems to be more of a reaction against posters digging at you, rather than the sort of 'balanced' argument you say you provide for Wenger. The easiest thing to do is dismiss something without any alternative suggestion.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Letters :haha:

The Animal Farm equivalent of Squealer on here, surely?

[Letters]

I'm asking again because your reaction to Klopp seems to be more of a reaction against posters digging at you, rather than the sort of 'balanced' argument you say you provide for Wenger. The easiest thing to do is dismiss something without any alternative suggestion.

I don't need to provide an alternative suggestion. I'm just amused by the fact that we finished top 4 and won the Cup last season, we're going to finish top 4 again this year and may well retain the Cup and Wenger has been called every name under the sun on here and is apparently an incompetent buffoon. Klopp has, overall, done very well at Dortmund but this season has been a car crash for them and yet some people are sucking his cock and proclaiming him 'the answer'. Weird :shrug:

Given how critical people have been on here of Wenger this season, which could yet turn out to be a pretty decent one, I can't even imagine how they'd have posted had we been bottom after 20 games like Dortmund were.

Wenger has his flaws and some of them are maddening. All I'm saying is so will the next bloke. This over-criticising of Wenger and over-praising of other managers is ridiculous. If you really want me to name someone, someone who I think would definitely improve us and win us the title, it's Mourinho. And personally I wouldn't want that **** anywhere near our club.

This place really is tiresome. So few people seem to be able to think or reason in any shades of grey, the slightest suggestion from me that Wenger might actually not be a **** or an incompetent buffoon and apparently I defend everything he does and want him to be our manager forever :yawn:

[Power n Glory]

Well no, if this were Wenger's record this season I'd expect him to be sacked. But it isn't Wenger's record this season, is it? In fact Wenger has never had a season that poor for Arsenal. We had a shaky start but we were never below 8th. And there were banners in the ground demanding his head. And now we're guaranteed a top 4 finish and we're in the Cup Final. Dortmund finished 2nd the last two years, miles and miles behind the champions though, and this year they've spent much of the season fighting relegation.
But yeah, Wenger's an idiot and Klopp is miles better :lol:


That much is true. I don't. But I can look up how some of the names that get bandied around on here are doing. The fact is any manager is a risk. No manager is guaranteed to succeed. That is no reason not to change managers of course, at some point we have to. But it's hilarious how most of the names mentioned on here have crashed and burned after flash in the pan success and how some of you judge other managers by completely different criteria than you do Wenger.

I'm not saying Wenger's an idiot. I'm saying you're the idiot!

[Power n Glory]

I don't need to provide an alternative suggestion. I'm just amused by the fact that we finished top 4 and won the Cup last season, we're going to finish top 4 again this year and may well retain the Cup and Wenger has been called every name under the sun on here and is apparently an incompetent buffoon. Klopp has, overall, done very well at Dortmund but this season has been a car crash for them and yet some people are sucking his cock and proclaiming him 'the answer'. Weird :shrug:

Given how critical people have been on here of Wenger this season, which could yet turn out to be a pretty decent one, I can't even imagine how they'd have posted had we been bottom after 20 games like Dortmund were.

Wenger has his flaws and some of them are maddening. All I'm saying is so will the next bloke. This over-criticising of Wenger and over-praising of other managers is ridiculous. If you really want me to name someone, someone who I think would definitely improve us and win us the title, it's Mourinho. And personally I wouldn't want that **** anywhere near our club.

This place really is tiresome. So few people seem to be able to think or reason in any shades of grey, the slightest suggestion from me that Wenger might actually not be a **** or an incompetent buffoon and apparently I defend everything he does and want him to be our manager forever :yawn:

An example of why you're an idiot.

[Letters]

Pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.
No attempt to engage with anything I said, no response to anything, just abuse.
:shrug:

GW :rose:

[GP]

Pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.
No attempt to engage with anything I said, no response to anything, just abuse.
:shrug:

GW :rose:

WUMs will WUM. It is known.

[Kano]

I don't need to provide an alternative suggestion. I'm just amused by the fact that we finished top 4 and won the Cup last season, we're going to finish top 4 again this year and may well retain the Cup and Wenger has been called every name under the sun on here and is apparently an incompetent buffoon. Klopp has, overall, done very well at Dortmund but this season has been a car crash for them and yet some people are sucking his cock and proclaiming him 'the answer'. Weird :shrug:

Given how critical people have been on here of Wenger this season, which could yet turn out to be a pretty decent one, I can't even imagine how they'd have posted had we been bottom after 20 games like Dortmund were.

Wenger has his flaws and some of them are maddening. All I'm saying is so will the next bloke. This over-criticising of Wenger and over-praising of other managers is ridiculous. If you really want me to name someone, someone who I think would definitely improve us and win us the title, it's Mourinho. And personally I wouldn't want that **** anywhere near our club.

This place really is tiresome. So few people seem to be able to think or reason in any shades of grey, the slightest suggestion from me that Wenger might actually not be a **** or an incompetent buffoon and apparently I defend everything he does and want him to be our manager forever :yawn:

Of course you don't have to name someone but I think it would give your argument more credibility. I don't come to this place as much as yourself nowadays but from what I read most people see Klopp as a possible answer rather than a guarantee of success.

Whether anyone admits it, every fan enjoys the 'security' Wenger gives us; always in the CL and just close enough to the top without ever completely losing sight. The stagnation and snail-paced improvement is maddening as hell but there is always hope because the team clings onto the elite. When he goes we'll all feel unsure about the future under the next guy. Starting afresh is scary for anyone. Forums are never a true reflection of reality, so sadly he'll get called every name under the until the frustration subsides. It is one of the massive contradictions by fans and none of us of are immune from displaying similar toward other clubs/players. But that doesn't reflect the fans true feelings to the guy. When he leaves I can't imagine a single Arsenal fan, or at least the many who understand his history here, without a lump in their throat.

Discussing a replacement is more of a certainty than how frustrated people are. The mood can change but a replacement will have to be sought. There's no escaping it. We all know Mourinho would never be accepted here so a discussion has to happen around other candidates. Realistic ones at that. Klopp is an obvious manager to put in the frame because of the many boxes he ticks. He's had a terrible season but can you think of a manager that has stuck with a team punching above their weight for years and stayed there successfully? They get picked off in the end by their rivals. Koeman may get put into the reckoning for the Arsenal job and although personally I'm not sure, you could understand why. Southampton will get ripped apart in the end and fall lower but that wouldn't make Koeman a bad manager. Let's not forget 'Arsene Who?' 19 years ago, a manager who arrived into the Premier carrying far less credibility than Klopp. Ideally we'd like a manager with age on his side, rather than plumping for one of the super-managers - like Maureen - who build short term projects and clear off onto the next one.

[fakeyank]

Would absolutely love to see your posts on here if we had a season like Dortmund have had under Klopp this year.
Rock bottom after 19 games.
P19 W4 D4 L11 F18 A27
They've done better since but they're still nearer the relegation zone than the top 4.

I want us to at least try to do something different. Wenger is what you have if you want to be middle class for life.. I want us to at least try and move onto the next level. Whether Klopp will be the man who can do it or someone else, I know one thing for sure... Wenger is not the man to take us to the level a club of Arsenals size should aspire to be. I dont want odd title challenges once every 2-3 years (which hasnt happened in 10 years now), I want Arsenal to be dominating the league and the club having an aura of superiority. I want that swagger of the Highbury times back (late 90s, early 2000s).. enough of this praying for a miracle draw in CL to have hopes to progress beyond the 2nd round. I want us to look at Bayern, Barca and Madrid, and think... "We can do this!"

[Penguin]

We're tired of watching Wenger make the same mistakes every single year. Resources are no longer an excuse, we have a strong squad and the resources to build on it.

But will he invest in the right areas this summer?
Will we have the consistency to win the league, or only turn up for half the season?
Will we reach the latter stages of the Champions League, or will Wenger's tactical naivety be shown up again?

We've been asking the same questions for a decade and nothing has changed, so I'm pretty sure I know the answer to those three questions.

[Power n Glory]

Pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.
No attempt to engage with anything I said, no response to anything, just abuse.
:shrug:

GW :rose:

Here goes....what really ticks me off about your posts in this thread is the way you've waded into the conversation as if you know something about Klopp and German footbal. No shame in not knowing but you barge in with your biased Googled stats like you have something to contribute. If it were Wenger you'd be finding a way to cook the books in his favour like you've done recently.

Speaking of Wenger, nobody has insulted him on this thread over the past couple of days since this topic flared up again. People were just discussing potential replacements and you decided to make the comparsion. You always resort to the same retort about Wenger insults in these topics when he's not even mentioned in a debate. It's distracting and it's funny how you say other's don't engage with posts. Somehow, someway, you always find a way to beat that top 4 drum message and Wenger's record even though it's not a talking point or even relevant to this topic.

Anyway, It's stupid comparsion because you still don't recognise it's taken several years for fans to firmly want Wenger out. If Wenger had the sort of season Klopp's having now after we've exhausted all avenues, rebuilt team after team with the new funding we were once starved of, of course most would want him gone.

But if this were 2005/6, our Invincible team has just been picked off, Chelsea and Utd are spending millions whilst we struggle, even if we were bottom of the table, I doubt fans would be so quick to call for Wenger to be fired after years of success with us. We'd be wondering what's wrong with the players, speculating what's going on behind the scenes with the Board and funding like were doing year after year before these new sponsorship deals came through. I highly doubt you'd be calling for him to be sacked and you'd be pointing out the 'moneybag' teams as you usually do.

[Gooner23]

If we win at OT today and retain the FA Cup you can make a good argument for progression on last season, particularly with the emergence of Bellerin and Coquelin and resurgence of Cazorla and Ozil.

However my view of the last few years hasn't changed, Wenger just doesn't have it in him anymore to sustain a title challenge. To his credit he's assembled a very good squad of players; however he's the one holding them back and, as mentioned, all the excuses have dried up. For that reason I want him to go.

[Globalgunner]

If you recall time after time how Letters always brings the discussions round to how people are saying Wenger is an idiot when HE is always the first to use that word, you see a desperation to win an argument at all costs whether by calling other poster stupid or other such childish words. (He is always the first to insult the others) or by gerrymandering the frame of the argument to suit whatever Wengerite position will win the day for him. It is rather sad really. Sometimes I wonder if the real reason he doesn't want anyone to replace Wenger is because, if, and this is a long shot, if the new person actually ends up doing better than Wenger, then Letters will have ended up losing an argument for the first time in history. Now we can have that now can we, what else would be the poor chaps raison d etre?.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Athletico dont play dire football. They play good football but shut the barn door when playing the big boys.. I see nothing wrong with that, if we get results.

I am not a big fan of Pep either.. I think his success is built on teams who have world class players throughout the pitch. Dont think he will suit us.

I'd take Klopp, Martinez, Koeman or any up and coming manager over Wenger. IMO, we dont necessarily need to bring in someone who has won something, as long as they can show that they can motivate the team and have proper tactics.

I dunno. Granted I don't watch them religiously but the bits I've seen they've always been scrappy and workmanlike. Plus the "not speaking a word of English" thing is kind of a massive deal.

I can never judge Pep properly. On the one hand he's won so much and is probably arguably responsible for one of the best teams in world football for the past few decades (his Barca team) but on the other hand he does do some bizarre things at times, seems stubborn and inflexible and seems to wind a lot of people up the wrong way. According to a irl ITK I know, allegedly Wenger and Gazidis are big fans of him and Wenger is prepared to even step down if Pep becomes available and wants the job.


Martinez :lol: ....... terrible stuff FakeYank. The guy can't build a defence if his life depeneded on it. You don't think we concede too many goals as it is?

Koeman's had a fantastic season (considering expectations) but he flopped the last time he went to a semi big club (Valencia). Seems to me another Moyes situation tbh, good enough at that level but not for the elites.

I actually think Gary Monk's a better manager than both of them tbh.


Anyway a win today would give Wenger some postivity after the disappointment of last Monday.

[Niall_Quinn]

No more excuses for Wenger. He's clueless at the very top level and he just keeps on proving it, season after season. It's embarrassing watching a squad of talented players being so badly mismanaged.

[rodders]

Todays game shows yet again that tactically he has been left behind

[Xhaka Can’t]

If we win at OT today and retain the FA Cup you can make a good argument for progression on last season, particularly with the emergence of Bellerin and Coquelin and resurgence of Cazorla and Ozil.

However my view of the last few years hasn't changed, Wenger just doesn't have it in him anymore to sustain a title challenge. To his credit he's assembled a very good squad of players; however he's the one holding them back and, as mentioned, all the excuses have dried up. For that reason I want him to go.

Over the years he has indeed assembled some good teams. However, players have come and gone ad infinitum but the same losers mentality has infected every team he has put out since 2004.

There are no excuses, there is nowhere for Wenger to hide. He has a losers mentality and he infects every team he puts out with it.

[adzzzbatch]

Lower points tally than last season. wenger :bow:

[Letters]

Lower points tally than last season. wenger :bow:

But most likely a higher league position and we could retain the cup :shrug:

[Niall_Quinn]

But most likely a higher league position and we could retain the cup :shrug:

Stop it now.

[Letters]

You're the one WUMming :good:

[Niall_Quinn]

You're the one WUMming :good:

Even if I was, what does that have to do with Wenger fucking 2nd place when we had it in our hands?

[Maestro]

Over the years he has indeed assembled some good teams. However, players have come and gone ad infinitum but the same losers mentality has infected every team he has put out since 2004.

There are no excuses, there is nowhere for Wenger to hide. He has a losers mentality and he infects every team he puts out with it.

Put simply, that is the truth of the matter ...end of

[Letters]

Even if I was, what does that have to do with Wenger fucking 2nd place when we had it in our hands?
It was a remarkable run to get anywhere near 2nd. We've only got only one bad result, last Monday. Maybe securing top 4 did make them relax a bit and while that's not good enough every team slips up here and there. We're most likely going to finish 3rd, the only two sides who will finish above us are the two billionaire cheats, and we'll probably be pretty close to one of them. Do that and win the Cup and I can live with that. Bumbling idiot? That's just WUMming and you know it.

[Dein-machine]

We realy do need him to step down now - we played a poor Utd side today who will always play into our hands at O.T. but we set up far too deeply with no pace up top. Criminal.
No changes at half time as per usual, Jack & Theo gave us the drive & pace needed from the start but we're only given 20 mins.
The only reason we played at all 2nd half was because we were losing. If we had been 1-0 up at half time we wouldn't have won today or maybe even got a draw.

[Letters]

Why do people keep saying they're a poor side? None of the top 4 won there this year.
Well, we did in the Cup but they've had a very good home record this season.

[Dein-machine]

Why do people keep saying they're a poor side? None of the top 4 won there this year.
Well, we did in the Cup but they've had a very good home record this season.

Did you watch the game?

[Letters]

No. Heard it was rubbish. I'll watch the highlights later.
This isn't a great Utd side by any stretch of the imagination but they are going to finish 4th at worst and they haven't lost often at home this season.
They're not that bad, I'd have taken a draw.

[Kano]

We'll finish a place higher yet still further away from the champions from last year. What happens if we don't win the cup? Suddenly a potential 'good' season slides back into the indistinguishable averageness of seasons past. Our recent run was just that - a good run. You don't assess a season on a fifth of it. The first half of the season forced us to put together a run like that because we had massively under-performed before. Plaudits for 8 wins on the bounce mean little when the end result is third. If it meant it pushed us close to the title then sure, praises due. All we've been doing is manically making up ground. What about the other bloody four-fifths of the season, you know, the vast majority of it?

Great, we know we're in the group/second round of the CL (depending on our new seed status) so we cling onto the elite once more. Not one fan can confidently step forward and say we're going to win it. So that's one cup gone before a ball is kicked. The league is the one we all want, which will mean our manager out- smarting Mourinho. Hand on heart, how likely is that to happen after how many attempts now? So, that leaves us with the cups once again. Capital One or the Emirates FA Cup? How exciting.

For all the talk this year of there being a difference in this squad, we have followed the same habits and routines of seasons past. The guaranteed end result is a place higher. Winning cups is great, they're trophies that shouldn't be knocked but a big team can't bask in the 'glory' of domestic cup triumphs. There has to be clear signs the team can sustain challenges for the big stuff. We still don't have that.

[Niall_Quinn]

The league is the one we all want, which will mean our manager out

:gp:

[Niall_Quinn]

It was a remarkable run to get anywhere near 2nd.

Does this mean we've also won the "anywhere near second cup"?

:trophy:

[Letters]

I want us to at least try to do something different.
I think that's fairly reasonable although let's say we finish 3rd (pretty likely) and win the Cup (we should do, but you never know with our lot!) then we'll have won two pretty major cups in two years and finished top 4 in both seasons. I can't agree that's middle class and I don't think anyone bar the billionaire cheats would swap with us.

I want Arsenal to be dominating the league and the club having an aura of superiority.
Well, we all want that but honestly in the era of the billionaire cheats I don't think that will happen under any manager.
Even the billionaire cheats tend to get swept aside by sides like Barca, Real or Bayern.

I quite liked your Simeone idea actually (yes, I had to Google him, so shoot me), but he seems to be a bit of a club hopper. Klopp might well do a good job at Arsenal, he has done very well overall at Dortmund but this season has been a car crash. Koemann has done very well at Southampton, it would be interesting to see what he could do with a side who has the resources of Arsenal.

All I'm trying to point out is that the new bloke, whoever he is, will just have different flaws from Wenger.

[Letters]

The good run is far longer than a fifth of the season.

[Letters]

If it were Wenger you'd be finding a way to cook the books in his favour like you've done recently.
You said that before. No. No I wouldn't.

If we finish 3rd and win the Cup then there are no books to cook. That's a good season. It's not a great season and we should be pushing the billionaire cheats harder but after our poor start we've done well to get where we are. After our poor start a lot of people were saying (like they do year after year) that we wouldn't finish top 4. Now people are complaining that we're not doing better. :shrug:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's a risk but in order to move on you have to accept risk, whether we accept the extent of the financial constraints of the past or not the fact is that the old flaws still remain....is he any worse than van gaal or pellegrini probably not....but both have far more money to spend to bring in the players to paper over their own shortcomings...whilst we have a good squad now, we also need a top manager to make the most of them.
Whether we win the FA cup or not, he's with us until 2017...there is no way around that...but despite the improvement in January onwards, the failure to challenge for the title or make it past the last 16 of the Champions League makes this another disappointing season when you consider the aspirations a club of our standing should have.....and yes the reason we have that standing is largely because of Wenger but i see no reason to stagnate out of blind loyalty and frankly i'm still counting down the days until his contract runs down and i sure fucking hope he doesn't get another extension.

[Kano]

Beginning of Feb I think we were 5/6 or so. So we've just made up ground. You can stretch back stats for as long as you need to accommodate a positive spin but the fact is it has left to nothing more than third in the league and even further behind the winners. The core of the run - the moment that got everyone's attention was winning so many games in a row. The rest of the run was what was expected from a team who had historically finished in the top four. Take away the opportunity we have of winning the cup, concentrating on the sort of prize we should be pushing for - the league - and it's a pretty unspectacular season up until this point. Of course people are complaining we can't do better. Quite simply because we should be. Cheats and other excuses don't come into it when you look at our first team compared to City or Utd for example. How did Atletico or Dortmund manage to win the league against such disproportionate odds? Managerial nous. The type of which we no longer have. Players can take you so far - about as far as we have for the past decade - a manager is supposed to add that extra ingredient to push onto the league.

[fakeyank]

Well, we all want that but honestly in the era of the billionaire cheats I don't think that will happen under any manager.

I dont agree.. especially with FFP coming into play, they cannot just go and buy the best of the best without making compromises. An example is City and Chelsea this season. They couldnt go beserk and buy anyone and everyone. The 'billionaire cheat' excuse is going to be a lame excuse soon enough. And then you dont have to look beyond SAF to see how a good strong manager can beat 'the billionaire cheat'. Plus there is Klopp and Simeone who are showing that their sides can take the fight against the 'big boys'

An example of you contradicting your previous statement is this where you show that the billionaire cheat does not always get you dominance. It is history and a solid base to build on that is more important
Even the billionaire cheats tend to get swept aside by sides like Barca, Real or Bayern.

We have everything in terms of stadium, revenues and a foundation of fan base to reach the levels of teams above, yet we want to only hang with the likes of Spurs, Liverpool and Everton. We really need to stop making excuses for our mediocrity. We are much better than that... we are settling for just the basic when we are capable of so much better. With Wenger, you will just get the basic and fortunately, I want and expect more.

[Letters]

FFP could yet save us although I'm not convinced it will have much bite, I know City's owners have bought up other clubs they can use to stockpile players and 'loan' them to their main club so I think they'll find ways around it.
And yeah, SAF is the one man who has managed to stop the billionaire cheats from winning a title in the last 10 years, but he is the GOAT, IMO. I seriously have no idea how he won that last title, managers like that don't grow on trees.

If we finish 3rd and win the Cup then it will have been a pretty good season IMO. Certainly not mediocre. With the new financial deal in place we do now have the resources to compete more seriously but I do think the signings of players like Ozil and Sanchez are making a difference and I think we'll challenge next year. As I said in the other thread, let's face it Wenger will be in charge so let's see how he does. As NQ said some time back, we'll probably be having these conversations again this time next year :lol:

:ilt:

[Power n Glory]

You said that before. No. No I wouldn't.

If we finish 3rd and win the Cup then there are no books to cook. That's a good season. It's not a great season and we should be pushing the billionaire cheats harder but after our poor start we've done well to get where we are. After our poor start a lot of people were saying (like they do year after year) that we wouldn't finish top 4. Now people are complaining that we're not doing better. :shrug:

You really are on the WUM. Fans wanted to see us challenge for the title and not be blown out before Christmas. Of course we wanted more.

The Kopp criticism is funny also because it's one really bad season but if it were Wenger in reverse, you'd be giving him credit for saving us from relegation and closing in on a Europe spot.

Honestly, in 2005 after we've dismantled the Invincible squad, arrival of Chelsea and on the verge of a stadium move, you'd call for Wenger to be sacked if he'd have a season like Klopp's having now?

[Globalgunner]

You really are on the WUM. Fans wanted to see us challenge for the title and not be blown out before Christmas. Of course we wanted more.

The Kopp criticism is funny also because it's one really bad season but if it were Wenger in reverse, you'd be giving him credit for saving us from relegation and closing in on a Europe spot.

Honestly, in 2005 after we've dismantled the Invincible squad, arrival of Chelsea and on the verge of a stadium move, you'd call for Wenger to be sacked if he'd have a season like Klopp's having now?

One the previous Wenger thread Letters argued vociferously that more points in a different season meant progress even though it was pointed out that you can have more points but be in a worse position. Now that the points are less this season but position higher he suddenly reverses himself. WUMs tend to forget what they WUMMED about yesterday. Best to ignore.

[Letters]

When did I say anything about progress above? :lol:
3rd place and winning the Cup is a good season. Fewer points than last year is a disappointment though.

[Letters]

The Kopp criticism is funny also because it's one really bad season but if it were Wenger in reverse, you'd be giving him credit for saving us from relegation and closing in on a Europe spot.
Now that's the 3rd time you've said that.

No. I. Wouldn't.


Honestly, in 2005 after we've dismantled the Invincible squad, arrival of Chelsea and on the verge of a stadium move, you'd call for Wenger to be sacked if he'd have a season like Klopp's having now?
Yes. I can understand a certain dropping off but a relegation battle after 20 games? Really?

[Power n Glory]

Now that's the 3rd time you've said that.

No. I. Wouldn't.


Yes. I can understand a certain dropping off but a relegation battle after 20 games? Really?

Bollocks!

[Power n Glory]

One the previous Wenger thread Letters argued vociferously that more points in a different season meant progress even though it was pointed out that you can have more points but be in a worse position. Now that the points are less this season but position higher he suddenly reverses himself. WUMs tend to forget what they WUMMED about yesterday. Best to ignore.

Best advice! Guys full of shit!

[Letters]

Bollocks!

:lol: Don't ask me then :tiphat:

[Niall_Quinn]

When did I say anything about progress above? :lol:
3rd place and winning the Cup is a good season. Fewer points than last year is a disappointment though.

You are isolating the final placing from the events that put us there. Say the chavs had collapsed and finished 2nd? Could you point at the table and say, 2nd, that's a good season? We'll finish 3rd place when we had it in our hands to finish 2nd. So a potentially decent (not great, but decent) finish has become a failure. We almost, nearly, could've finished well but we fell at the major hurdle as usual.

1 point from 6 while the rivals we had under our foot grab 6 from 6, the one point coming courtesy of a deflected fluke or else we'd be looking at the typical perfect fuck up Wenger always manages when the chips are down. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if we make it 1 from 12. It would be surprising if the chavs did that, or the gypos, or even Utd. But Arsenal, when 4th is already in the bag? We know we won't be pushing all out, we've already seen that over the last 2 games. 4th secure so park the car and drain the tank. Typical, typical Wenger.

He's the same in the CL. Four wins on the spin? Already qualified? Fine, foot off the gas. lose to some shithouse makeweight and finish second in the group. It's what Wenger does. He can't stand momentum. He doesn't know how to drive harder and harder right up to the line. Barest, barest minimum is his code.

That's why he puts zero effort in on match day. Zero effort. You can predict his formation, his tactics (such as they are). You can predict how he'll react as the game develops. You can even predict his subs to the minute. One size fits all. The quality of the players drags us through but a lack of tactical management will always catch up with the team in the end. You need all elements firing to win a title and right now we have a team that could do it but a dud manager.

It would be impossible to reach these conclusions after a single season. Unfair to do it after two seasons. But 9 or 10 seasons? Nobody is guessing or speculating here - the facts are facts, the evidence is in the bag. 10 attempts at OT to take 3 points, all ending in failure. Lord knows how many attempts against the chavs. These are the clubs we need to be at least splitting the results 50/50 with over the course of the season. We're nowhere near that mark. One win against the gypos and a cup win against Utd, that's what we view as success these days. That's how low our standards have sunk.

Thanks to one guy. The constant.

[Dein-machine]

We can argue all day ( as some seem to ) about our points total & competing against the Billionaires but as Gooners aren't we overlooking the principle that Wenger is all about ie quality, attacking football.
We criticise Mourinho on here for "parking the bus" & negative tactics but he does it because he can - he has the players to do it & he doesn't apologise for it. What we saw yesterday was a manager who's lost his principles of attacking football in order to pub wins or in yesterdays case a draw.
We didn't have a shot on goal in the whole of the 1st half, we basically parked the bus but because we are not trained in fine art of parking the bus, we conceeded - what's that if not negative. Everyone in football knew he would set us up to play the same way as we did at City. There was no surprise for Van Gal who could work all week on what they could do against the obvious 11 that Wenger was going to play.
They put Blind infront of Giroud to nullify our long ball knowing that we would be too defensive to offer any other threat. Get someone close to Sanchez & we are dead in the water.
Second half, he had to take the handbrake of Cazorla, Ramsey & Ozil & we played far more forward - as we are trained to do.
For the past few years we've gone to poor Utd teams at O.T, sat back & shit ourselves, when actually they are the type of team our football is suited to. They won't do a Chelsea or a Swansea, they can't because of the players they have, so quick attacking football with pace & width opens up a very weak defense time & time again.
Where did their goal come from? - Young attacking down the left with a ball to the far post. Did anyone on here not see it coming after 20 minutes or so. Did we not think they were going to use that route with Fellani at the far post, especially without Shrek playing.
How else were they going to score?
What would have happened if Wenger had amazingly played the tactical game & started with Walcott. He hasn't been good lately but his pace would have meant Van Gal having to change his mindset late on Sunday & ask Young to give Roja some cover due to Theo's pace. If we played more offensively, Young would have spent most of the 1st half in his own half. Rambo is ineffective on the right hand side, look at the difference he made coming into the middle & the choices our midfield had when Theo came on.
At the moment we seem to play one half attacking, get a lead & then park the bus, even against shit teams. If we play negatively in the 1st half & go behind he then unlocks the handbrake for us to go & attack. Why not fucking attack all the time, we have the players to do this - we DONT have the players to be negative.

[Dein-machine]

You are isolating the final placing from the events that put us there. Say the chavs had collapsed and finished 2nd? Could you point at the table and say, 2nd, that's a good season? We'll finish 3rd place when we had it in our hands to finish 2nd. So a potentially decent (not great, but decent) finish has become a failure. We almost, nearly, could've finished well but we fell at the major hurdle as usual.

1 point from 6 while the rivals we had under our foot grab 6 from 6, the one point coming courtesy of a deflected fluke or else we'd be looking at the typical perfect fuck up Wenger always manages when the chips are down. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if we make it 1 from 12. It would be surprising if the chavs did that, or the gypos, or even Utd. But Arsenal, when 4th is already in the bag? We know we won't be pushing all out, we've already seen that over the last 2 games. 4th secure so park the car and drain the tank. Typical, typical Wenger.

He's the same in the CL. Four wins on the spin? Already qualified? Fine, foot off the gas. lose to some shithouse makeweight and finish second in the group. It's what Wenger does. He can't stand momentum. He doesn't know how to drive harder and harder right up to the line. Barest, barest minimum is his code.

That's why he puts zero effort in on match day. Zero effort. You can predict his formation, his tactics (such as they are). You can predict how he'll react as the game develops. You can even predict his subs to the minute. One size fits all. The quality of the players drags us through but a lack of tactical management will always catch up with the team in the end. You need all elements firing to win a title and right now we have a team that could do it but a dud manager.

It would be impossible to reach these conclusions after a single season. Unfair to do it after two seasons. But 9 or 10 seasons? Nobody is guessing or speculating here - the facts are facts, the evidence is in the bag. 10 attempts at OT to take 3 points, all ending in failure. Lord knows how many attempts against the chavs. These are the clubs we need to be at least splitting the results 50/50 with over the course of the season. We're nowhere near that mark. One win against the gypos and a cup win against Utd, that's what we view as success these days. That's how low our standards have sunk.

Thanks to one guy. The constant.

:gp:

[Letters]

IMO you over-state how important it is to finish 2nd rather than 3rd. We're so far away from Chelsea I don't think they'd have been looking over their shoulder at us either way.
We'd won 9 games out of 10 - the end of a longer good run, we're actually closer to Chelsea than we were after 12 games - to get us in a position where 2nd was in our hands.
We slipped up in one game so now we'll probably finish 3rd. If that slip was the difference between 1st and 2nd then I would see it as a failure, as it is it's not something I'm going to over-analyse be overly critical about. There is no actual difference between 2nd and 3rd, both qualify us automatically for the CL. Had we slipped to 4th and another qualification then I'd have seen more of a problem.

We didn't fail at the final hurdle in last year's Final. We nearly did of course, but we got there. Let's see what we do this year in the final. I don't care how we scored at OT. ManYoo got a lucky deflection in the game at the Emirates. These things happen. From the highlights I saw we deserved our point. You say it would surprise you if the other teams slipped up but apart from Chelsea they all must have done or we wouldn't be anywhere near them after our start.

One win against the gypos and a cup win against Utd is NOT what I view as success, if those results were in the middle of a season when we win nothing and finish mid-table then they would be meaningless. In a season where we win the Cup, if we do, and finish the 3rd then they do give me some hope that we can win games on the big occasion.

Wenger will keep making the same mistakes, but IMO overall he's doing more right than wrong. The main point I'm tryig to make is that the next bloke will just make different mistakes and those mistakes may well lead to a worse outcome. I can sympathise with the view that we need to try something different though.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We are only postponing the inevitable anyway, there isn't a portrait of him in his home in Totteridge getting older

A man who insists on micro managing to the extent Wenger does won't stay in the game until his seventies, and really we should be pushing him gently towards the exit door whatever he does or doesn't acheive in the next couple of years. He could win a league title and champions league (neither will happen) and I still don't think it would be desirable for him to stay beyond 2017, a younger man and a fresher approach is called for...even if we found success in the short term under l'ouisseau I don't think his approach his amenable to sustainable success.

[Letters]

We are only postponing the inevitable anyway, there isn't a portrait of him in his home in Totteridge getting older.
:lol:

I will have to look at your with a new-found respect with that reference :tiphat:

[milla]

Letters on the WUM crusade :haha:

If Cripps is still alive, he would probably in tears now. :coffee:

[Niall_Quinn]

There is no actual difference between 2nd and 3rd, both qualify us automatically for the CL.

If you qualified that by stating 2nd and 3rd are both loser placings then I'd agree. Instead you say no difference because both auto qualify for the CL. Wenger's thinking exactly. Being the best you can be? Meaningless. Doing the minimum required to achieve a financial objective? As good as a trophy.

There's a HUGE difference between 2nd and 3rd, the difference between finishing above the gypos and them finishing above us. I guess if we'd have pushed on and grabbed 2nd spot all those excuses about the gypo billions would be washed away. What a relief it must be for the board and the manager.

[Globalgunner]

If you qualified that by stating 2nd and 3rd are both loser placings then I'd agree. Instead you say no difference because both auto qualify for the CL. Wenger's thinking exactly. Being the best you can be? Meaningless. Doing the minimum required to achieve a financial objective? As good as a trophy.

There's a HUGE difference between 2nd and 3rd, the difference between finishing above the gypos and them finishing above us. I guess if we'd have pushed on and grabbed 2nd spot all those excuses about the gypo billions would be washed away. What a relief it must be for the board and the manager....and Letters

[Letters]

Doing the minimum required to achieve a financial objective? As good as a trophy.
The minimum is 4th. I don't think we're going to finish 4th.
There is no difference between 2nd and 3rd. And with a Cup Final to think about I can understand a bit of easing off when the job of CL qualification is done and the title is no longer possible.
We'll just have to agree to disagree about that.

[Letters]

...and Letters

Yep. It's definitely me WUMming. :good:

[fakeyank]

The problem in our club is that 10 votes here on GW who want Wenger to stay. This represents the majority of our fans mentality- 'middle class'. They will chant Wengers name as long as we get the bare minimum.. no need for added success.. they are happy with 9-5 job and 40K salary with no aim or ambition.

These are folks who are not even of the opinion 'I want Wenger to stay IF'.. they are straight up happy with that mans performance. Says it all really! They account for almost 30% of the opinion here and 80% of the opinion outside Emirates. We are fucked!

[GP]

Wenger OUT!