Better season

[Toronto Gooner]

So, the 2014/15 season is now officially over for Arsenal. Let's take a quick "poll" on whether this was a better season than last.

Tangible facts
Arsenal won the FA Cup in both seasons
Arsenal got 4 fewer points than last season (but still the joint 3rd best over the last 9 seasons)
Arsenal came 3rd rather than 4th
Arsenal were knocked out in the round of 16 of the CL (but the team was not as good as last season)
The addition of a second world class player to the squad

Intangible factors
Best team in the Premier League in 2015
Established a record for winning the FA Cup
Established a record for a manager winning the FA Cup
Retained the FA Cup
The addition of a second world class player to the squad

Personally, I say this was a better season than 2014/15 but others might disagree.

[alexander]

I think we have moved on. OK, we are third not fourth, but the actual team seems less fragile. We are not a finished article, but its as close as we have been for some time. as this season has progressed, I have had less thoughts of "oh we are playing a top 5/6 team, we are are going to get our arses handed to us on a plate". I have had much more confidence of getting at least a point or three. Less scared of playing Manu/city, pool, chelsea than in any season for a while.

Im pleased with the season, and think we have a great basis to build on. There is much less dross in the team now, sometimes over the last few seasons I have looked at the bench and thought that if the starting 11 dont do it, nothing on the bench is a game changer. Now we have a riches of players (esp midfield) and we cant even get them all in the team.
I think there is much less panic needed in the transfer window. we do need some, but in previous seasons I think we have been here saying we need 2xCB, 1xRB, 1xDCM, 1/2xCF. Also, having not to go through the bloody qualifying for the CL in Aug will be a help for signing players and not picking up early season injuries.

Im happy.

[Marc Overmars]

I think the football we're playing is far more purposeful now and most importantly has the end product. So I'll qualify this season as progress based on that observation I guess.

Delighted with another cup triumph but we just have to challenge for the league next season, there really aren't anymore excuses. The squad is in place, money is available, everyone has had a taster of success, so lets do this shit.

[Penguin]

The typical pundit's view is: less points = got worse. For everyone else who isn't a moron you have to look at the whole picture.

1. Finished in a higher position
2. Strongest premier league team of 2015
3. We have Alexis fucking Sanchez
4. Ozil has stopped sulking and is coming good
5. Santi is a genius
6. We have a DM for the first time in... god know how long
7. Our young players like Ramsey, Wilshere, Ox, Bellerin and Coquelin are pushing on and playing well
8. Improved a lot against the big teams
9. Won the FA Cup again and in style
10. Our physio team are finally showing results and keeping players fit - touch wood...
11. We have Alexis fucking Sanchez... yeah he's that good he gets two lines

So yeah there has been improvement on last season. Is it enough to win the league next season? Probably not because the biggest obstacle, the manager, is still here. I don't think he'll make the right signings, and he restricts the potential of our squad with his tactics.

[Letters]

I'd be the first to admit I have previously looked at points as signs of progress and while it's a reasonable guide to how you're doing (clearly if you get 80 points you've had a better season than if you get 60), it is a bit simplistic. Arsenal did seem to ease off in the last 5 games after top 4 was secured and they had a Cup Final to think about. We got fewer points than last season but I don't think that's an indication of regression.
I think as a fan you get a feel for how the team is doing and right now I feel we're a better side than we were last season.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's swings and roundabouts

Personally I preferred this season to last (the second half of it anyway) as we produced the kind of results like beating Man Utd and City.

But there are still even in 2015 strong indications that Wenger's stubbornness and tactical deficiencies are holding us back. I know it was the end of the season and the champions league had been guaranteed but the home results against Swansea and Sunderland were totally unacceptable. The Monaco home game was an embarrassment, as was being totally dominated by Spurs at White Hart Lane, and whatever bollocks Wenger talks about cohesion, it's clear we need further player recruitment so we have the players to counteract Wenger's tactical paucity.
On the other hand although this was only Villa it's fair to say, he got everything right in that game, from getting Walcott and Sanchez to interchange on the left, to getting Szczesny to come out and claim or punch when the ball was crossed in.
This is the kind of thinking that will make us successful, we play to our own strengths whilst being mindful to nullify the strengths of the opposition, and that was the difference between a shaky 3-2 win against Hull and a 4-0 drubbing of what for me despite their league finish was a much stronger side in Aston Villa.

[Dein-machine]

I think we have had such a season & are a better team than last year purely because of Sanchez.
Santi has been a massive plus this year, Kos has been outstanding, Monreal has improved & Bellerin has impressed. Coq has improved us greatly at DM but I wonder if part of the reason he looks good to us is due to the absolute shite we had there with Arteta & Flamini.
On the other hand Rambo has been woeful in comparison to previous year, Giroud is too inconsistent & his lack of pace really affects the way we play. Ozil has good games but is still not stamping his authority on a regular basis. Jack, OX & Theo continuous medical cases. Can't choose between 2 mediocre keepers & Merts is getting ever slower.

Sanchez's goals, assits a workrate have been the difference. See what happens Wenger when you pay a little bit more to get world class.

[Power n Glory]

Sanchez had a storming season but we had games where we looked so unorganised and disjointed, which stemmed from the poor partnership of Wilshere and Ramsey, not even Sanchez could save our bacon all the time.

It's only until both Wilshere and Ramsey picked up injuries did we start to go on a winning run and look more fluid and confident in our play. It was a mess before. Furthermore, add Flamini and Arteta to the equation and injury list. Once Coquelin was playing as DM along with Cazorla as CM and Ozil playing as AM instead of on the flanks, we saw a difference in our play. A major difference and it took injures to see that difference. Once again.

i'm wondering what we'll do next season without the injuries. That's my worry. Will we try to force certain players in or revert back to playing Arteta instead of Coquelin? Will he force Rambo and Jack into the squad over Cazorla and Ozil, or force the latter players wide? So many questions and I hate the fact that we arrived at the right solution through injury again.

But it is what it is. Bellerin has had a storming season and I suspect Debuchy will get his place back but he can't afford to slip up because that young man will take his starting position.

Also, really good to see Monreal hold his left back spot. He's been another unsung heroe. I prefer him over Gibbs and hope the good run continues into next season.

No idea what next season will hold and can't say we've done better or worse. All will tell next season and for once, our poor injury record helped us out.

[Letters]

I think the season overall should be viewed as much the same as the last one, but I do somehow feel more optimistic of pushing on this time.
The new signings have made a difference, we've got some great away wins - and the performance in the final was superb, it has shown we can turn up in the big games.
I finally feel we have a squad that can seriously compete.

[Power n Glory]

All that can change over the summer. It depends on what our rivals do. Optimism was through the roof last season when we won the FA Cup.

[Niall_Quinn]

Plus we clearly demonstrated in the final weeks we cannot compete. So that, at least, will need to change dramatically.

[Globalgunner]

Our season assessment should be based on what our aspirations are at the start of it. 16 teams in the Pl would kill for our position but the truth is we are in a geostationary orbit when it comes to stellar expectations. We cannot seem to break the huge gravitational pull of having Wenger as our manager. In my lifetime I have seen or heard of Forest and Villa winning CL. When the fk will Arsenal win one?. Certainly not with U-know-who at the helm.

[Dein-machine]

I think the season overall should be viewed as much the same as the last one, but I do somehow feel more optimistic of pushing on this time.
The new signings have made a difference, we've got some great away wins - and the performance in the final was superb, it has shown we can turn up in the big games.
I finally feel we have a squad that can seriously compete.

The problem for me lays with the spine of the team. Mediocre GK, ageing slow CB, inexperienced DM & no world class striker. In the wider positions on the pitch I think we are just as strong as Chelsea & City but if we don't get real quality in the spine I don't think we can challenge.

[Kano]

Personally I'd remove the FA cup points as a marker. Winning a domestic cup is no indication of progression, especially when the teams you face are so random. It doesn't feel like this season is any better than the last - winning the cup was nice but not something you proudly parade around to other fans. Last years win was more about breaking such a long gap rather than what the trophy meant itself.

The league and CL is the only real way to show progress, so as usual, it's about waiting and most probably putting misplaced faith in the manager again until the next let down. Reaching second for the first time in almost a decade would've meant something, showed a sense of progression but because of our awful start that proved too much in the end. We also finished further away from the champions than last year - four points further combined with four less points in total says something - which is even more of an indication than final positions. As it stands, this squad cannot win the league and I think Wenger - as he did when we won the league - will not being in sufficient quality to push us on.

[fakeyank]

Same season as the last season in terms of what we expected to achieve and we actually achieved. For me, there were 2 massive positives- Sanchez and Coq. Coq to me was the best player for Arsenal in 2015.. We need a back up to him or else his injury will bring Arteta back in, and that is criminal!

Negative for this season- Arsene Wenger.

[Letters]

He's paid 8 million quid to do nothing but win two major trophies in two years :sulk:

[Niall_Quinn]

Please stop calling the FA Cup a major trophy. It hasn't been that for a long time. The PL and CL are major trophies.

[Mr. Lahey]

the complacency shown by the team at the beginning of the season and end of he season was telling for me. FA cup aside - this team did not get the results we needed when we needed them. that's the bottom line! Wenger did not have his team focused enough or motivated enough heading into the season, heading into the CL nor did he have them focused ending the season. 2nd place was in our hands and we completely blew it - in same old Arsenal fashion. Finishing 2nd, above one of the dopers would have been significant, especially as those who back WEnger use other Clubs payroll as an excuse as to why we cant finish above them. WE HAD THEM BEATEN but we didn't show up to finish the job off. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed the cup win but that is not a sign of true progress.

[Letters]

Please stop calling the FA Cup a major trophy.
Plenty of people turned out for the parades, they obviously think it is :good:

[Xhaka Can’t]

It clearly is not a major trophy unless there are some other superlatives I'm unaware of for the League and CL.

[Letters]

It's the most prestigious domestic Cup in the world. It has a history and prestige that no other domestic cup has.
Most football fans grew up with the FA Cup Final being a highlight of the season, many know who won the Cup in such and such a year.

I don't think we'd have had a parade for the Carling Cup. If we had I don't think many would have turned up.
It's clearly 3rd priority for the big clubs these days and clearly the CL has devalued it somewhat, but it's still a major trophy.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It isn't a major trophy. The prestige is long gone from it. Don't get me wrong, it is nice to win.

But 'major'?

Not a chance. Unless your definition of major is anything better than the League Cup.

[Power n Glory]

Letter's, what were your thoughts on when Arsene Wenger said 4th is like a trophy and he put the domestic cups at the bottom of our priority list?

[Globalgunner]

Its a major trophy because Letters says so. If we came 5th and won the FA cup....It would still be a major trophy.....in his mind. If you ask any normal fan what they would rather achieve, 4th place or FA cup?. We all know the answer.
On a descending scale
1. CL
2 PL
3. 4th place cup
4. FA cup
5. Carling, Coca Cola, Milk......or whatever liquid cup its called nowadays


So Wenger was right, all along.

[Letters]

Its a major trophy because Letters says so.

Well, to an extent that's right.
There is no standard, objective definition of what is and isn't a major trophy so if I think it is then, to me, it is.
If you don't think it is then, to you, it isn't.

Personally I'd rather win the FA Cup than finish 4th. Unfortunately in the modern game where being in the CL is so important it is arguably more important for the club to finish 4th than win the Cup, hence Wenger's comments about it being like a trophy. Happily for the last 2 seasons Wenger has done both.

Also, in your descending list there is a big, big gap between the FA Cup and the Hokey, Cokey Cup in terms of importance in prestige. Most football fans will know who won the FA Cup in such and such a year, I doubt they'd know the same about the league cup unless it was their team who won it because it has nowhere near the prestige or history of the FA Cup.

[Letters]

Letter's, what were your thoughts on when Arsene Wenger said 4th is like a trophy and he put the domestic cups at the bottom of our priority list?

Kinda answered that in my reply to Globalgunner, but that is just reflecting the sad reality of modern football that there is now a 'top 4', the importance of which is reflected in the amount of money clubs like Liverpool and Spurs have spent to try and break into it. The importance of the CL in terms of the money it generates and the prestige in terms of the players it can help attract is such that it has to be a priority. But given that we did finish in the top 4 and we won the FA Cup, I'd say the season was a relative success. Clearly the PL and the CL are the bigger prizes and we have to push on and challenge for those.

[Niall_Quinn]

But given that we did finish in the top 4 and we won the FA Cup, I'd say the season was a relative success.

Relative to what?

[Letters]

Relative to what?

Relative to a lot of our seasons in the last 10 years.

Overall I reckon 3rd place and the FA Cup is a #decent season. Could be better but could certainly be a lot worse.

EDIT: And also relative to most other clubs. Only Chelsea, in England, could be said to have had a better season.

[Kano]

Letter's, what were your thoughts on when Arsene Wenger said 4th is like a trophy and he put the domestic cups at the bottom of our priority list?

That is probably the best criteria to base its importance on, that and how the players themselves view it. Obviously those involved in the game directly are happy to win anything - you see them just as ecstatic lifting the League Cup - but at the start of any season the priority for teams of our stature is the league and CL. Not just the money but the prestige is far above what the FA Cup means today and both of those competitions provide sterner tests to lift them, rather than beating a group of random teams along the way. The buzz of wining a domestic cup fades away far quicker than either the league or CL.

[Letters]

I don't believe any player or fan would rather finish top 4 than win the Cup.
The club prioritize it because the club is a business and in a business sense it is the priority, but as a fan or player you surely want the trophy?

We did both anyway, so in terms of how we see this season we don't have to choose.

[GP]

I believe the FA Cup is still a major honour but I wouldn't want it at the expense of a Champions League place.
CL gives us a much greater chance of attracting the calibre of players required to really push on.

Would Alexis or Ozil be here without CL football? It's unlikely.

[Letters]

ManYoo made some pretty big signings without CL football for a season.
A club's history and prestige (and manager, in our case, Ozil said it was Wenger who swayed him) make a difference.
It is very important but a season outside the top 4 wouldn't kill us.

But we did both anyway. :cool:

Wenger :bow:

[Power n Glory]

We've had clubs win domestic cups but end up relegated in the same season. It's no way to measure progress and I'd fear more for Wenger's job if he'd finish outside of the Top 4 but still won the FA Cup. In fact, I think we'd be waving goodbye to a few players if we lost our CL place.

[Power n Glory]

ManYoo made some pretty big signings without CL football for a season.
A club's history and prestige (and manager, in our case, Ozil said it was Wenger who swayed him) make a difference.
It is very important but a season outside the top 4 wouldn't kill us.

But we did both anyway. :cool:

Wenger :bow:

We don't have Man Utd's money to spend and our history isn't as rich. If we fall outside the Top 4, the narrative writes itself. 'The slow decline of Arsenal and Arsene Wenger'.

Liverpool are a better example and comparison.

[dostoy]

The CL places are more important than the FA cup for me.

This was a better season for 2 main reasons which were Alexis Sanchez and half a season of Francis Coquelin.

Next season better still all round hopefully.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We've had clubs win domestic cups but end up relegated in the same season. It's no way to measure progress and I'd fear more for Wenger's job if he'd finish outside of the Top 4 but still won the FA Cup. In fact, I think we'd be waving goodbye to a few players if we lost our CL place.

Domestic cups are all about appeasing the fans, but I don't buy the notion that big clubs aren't interested in either. For me it's only the FA that have gone out of their way to devalue the competition by a mixture of holding the final at times when the league season is still going on and moving the kick off time
Wigan are the only team I can think of to win the FA cup and get relegated in the same season, we have Birmingham and the league cup final but that was a result of our bungling rather than lack of big team interest. And the minnows winning either cup competition is still an outlier rather than a trend.
Overall though yes I have to accept your premise that sucess In a cup competition is not an indicator of progress, especially as in the 2005/2006 we have gone further in the European cup than in the clubs history and despite this in the league we were as poor as I ever remember us being, especially away from home where we lost 9 times (the kind of away form we showed in GG's last season)

[Power n Glory]

Domestic cups are all about appeasing the fans, but I don't buy the notion that big clubs aren't interested in either. For me it's only the FA that have gone out of their way to devalue the competition by a mixture of holding the final at times when the league season is still going on and moving the kick off time
Wigan are the only team I can think of to win the FA cup and get relegated in the same season, we have Birmingham and the league cup final but that was a result of our bungling rather than lack of big team interest. And the minnows winning either cup competition is still an outlier rather than a trend.
Overall though yes I have to accept your premise that sucess In a cup competition is not an indicator of progress, especially as in the 2005/2006 we have gone further in the European cup than in the clubs history and despite this in the league we were as poor as I ever remember us being, especially away from home where we lost 9 times (the kind of away form we showed in GG's last season)

The FA have played their part in devaluing the competition but United had a season where they didn't take part in the FA Cup and we also played our part when we'd play our 2nd stringers. Wenger himself has said the Cup is low on his priority list so that's enough indication that we weren't interested in the competition. It's something for the fans and I'm glad we're taking it more seriously because it's good to win something at least. Almost a decade of winning nothing is an embarrassment and we should have broken that up with a few cup victories. But I'm not going to pretend it's a major cup and a sign that we're moving forward. It was always supposed be an achievement that would springboard us on to something bigger and break that losing mentality.

[Letters]

I don't really see winning the FA Cup as progress apart from the fact we finally managed to finish the job in a competition rather than falling short at the final hurdle.
But, as a fan, and surely as a player, it feels better to be lifting and parading a trophy than finishing top 4 and qualifying for the CL.

[Power n Glory]

For the fans, sure, plus our participation in the CL is pretty pointless, as we're just making up the numbers. Most of us have no faith in our manager or team to win it. But that's besides the point really. I think most would be happy even if we won the Carling Cup or UEFA cup. But we were questioning whether the FA Cup is a major trophy. It's not. The boss doesn't think it is and it's not enough to satisfy the players. Parade day they'll be happy but if they didn't have CL football next season, we'd find out how long that would last for.

[Letters]

But we were questioning whether the FA Cup is a major trophy. It's not.
Well, again, there is no objective definition of what is and isn't so it's a bit of a pointless debate.

[Power n Glory]

Well, again, there is no objective definition of what is and isn't so it's a bit of a pointless debate.

:doh: When our own manager puts finishing 4th ahead of the FA Cup, that should be enough indication.

[Marc Overmars]

I love that we're record holders and Wenger's legacy is strongly linked to success in the competition, but it's hard to classify the FA Cup as a major honour anymore. There's just too much money in the game now, not only from the CL but the PL as well. Even pub teams tend to play weaker sides because staying up and earning big bucks is what's going to sustain them, not a cup win. I read Cardiff earned over 80m for finishing bottom the other year FFS.

CL qualification is a necessary evil if we do harbour any hopes of building a team strong enough to win the league or even CL itself.

As far as progress goes, I suppose a cup win can breed a winning mentality and make the players hungrier for more, but I wouldn't say it particularly demonstrates the strength of the team, not when the fixtures can be quite straight forward if you're fortunate enough.

Once upon a time when the game wasn't awash with dirty money the FA Cup was the big one, but it will never be the same again. It's just icing on the cake to a season now, but the trouble is, the cake doesn't need icing to be eaten.

[Niall_Quinn]

I just can't agree with your opinion here, all decent cakes need icing. Or jam and cream at least. Or maybe syrup at a push. Dry cakes are the pits.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

We're had a marginally better season but are much better as a team. You're not going to tell me that adding Sanchez, Bellerin and Coq doesn't equate to a better team.

Also, I am of the opinion the FA cup is a major trophy. It may not be one of the big two or be where the smart money is....... but it is still a major trophy in my eyes and I'm delighted we retained it and in doing so matched/broke all sorts of records. The FA cup hasn't been so devalued that it has vacated out of prestigiousness into obsoleteness.

If we sustained a title challenge to the last day of the season next season.....but didn't win anything in the end, you'd be hard pressed to say the season was more successful than this one now objectively, though you could argue we'd improved as a team.

[Letters]

:doh: When our own manager puts finishing 4th ahead of the FA Cup, that should be enough indication.

That is merely an indication of the sad reality that in a business sense - and football is merely a business these days - it makes more financial sense to finish top 4 than win the Cup. I'm sure Wenger would be far more proud of the fact that we've won a record 12 FA Cups now and half of those have been under his tenure than the fact he's qualified for the CL a bazillion years in a row.
That said, both are pretty impressive achievements.

[Dein-machine]

Wenger will say the words that fans will want to hear but how can he devalue the FA cup when its really the only competition we enter that we stand a chance of winning. We put a 2nd string out for the league cup & our lack of quality in key areas on the pitch means we haven't a hope in the P.L. or C.L. - in my opinion we could give the FA cup more value by offering the winners a C.L. place rather than reward a team for finishing 4th - it is fairly ridiculous to be playing in the CHAMPIONS league when you've won nothing all season but managed to finished 3rd or 4th in your league.

[Power n Glory]

That is merely an indication of the sad reality that in a business sense - and football is merely a business these days - it makes more financial sense to finish top 4 than win the Cup. I'm sure Wenger would be far more proud of the fact that we've won a record 12 FA Cups now and half of those have been under his tenure than the fact he's qualified for the CL a bazillion years in a row.
That said, both are pretty impressive achievements.

You can't be sure of what he's more proud of.

Below, I think he's talking about the Carling Cup, but considering he ranks both domestic cups below CL qualification,he may be talking about both. No doubts about what he thinks is harder to achieve.



Arsène Wenger believes it is harder to finish in the top three of the Premier League than win a domestic cup competition.

The Arsenal manager has scooped seven major trophies during his time with the Club – and been a whisker away from many more – and he would like to end his career with as much silverware as possible.

But Wenger insists that success cannot be measured by trophies alone and is just as proud of his team’s consistency in the Champions League over the past decade.

"It's very important that we win something, we're here to win trophies, but it depends on what you call trophies,” he explained.

“Is it the Champions League, the Premier League, the League Cup? If you win the League Cup you cannot say you win trophies for me.

“Of course [finishing third is better than winning a domestic cup]. It's much more difficult.

“I want to win trophies and, like the fans, I'm frustrated if I don't. But a season does not go from fantastic to zero. A season in the English league, when you fight with Manchester City, Liverpool, Tottenham and Aston Villa, to finish in the top three is still not a disaster.

"It's not enough because you want to win trophies. But it doesn’t say: 'oh what a terrible season that was.' We've just qualified from the group stage in the Champions League for the tenth consecutive season.

"That is, for me, three times as difficult as winning the League Cup five times. I know what's difficult and what's not difficult.

"But I know people want to parade with a trophy and if you don't win a trophy you can't do that. But it doesn't mean the rest of the season has been completely useless."

[Letters]

You can't be sure of what he's more proud of.
Well no, nor can any of us really (which doesn't stop others pontificating about what Wenger thinks).
But while it is probably harder to finish top 4 year on year than win the Cup, ultimately the history books record trophies.
We don't have a "We Finished Top 4 Again" parade every year.

[Power n Glory]

Again, Letter's, you have Wenger's words right in front of you and what he's said in public. That's not speculation, just facts.

[Letters]

Yes, said in a time when he was under pressure to deliver trophies having gone years without one.
But he repeatedly highlights the importance of winning trophies, he's merely making the point that a trophyless season isn't necessarily a complete failure.
And he belittles the League Cup in those quotes, not the FA Cup.

[Globalgunner]

Yes, said in a time when he was under pressure to deliver trophies having gone years without one.
But he repeatedly highlights the importance of winning trophies, he's merely making the point that a trophyless season isn't necessarily a complete failure.
And he belittles the League Cup in those quotes, not the FA Cup.

Splitting hairs as usual. The only one pontificating what Wenger thinks here is you, other people are simply stating their own opinions. The FA cup is a more prestigious cup than the League cup but only in as much as coming 2nd is more prestigious than coming 3rd in the PL. The only position that matters is coming 1st. Maybe you think we had a better season than City who came 2nd and won nothing? Yes we are just behind Chelsea who won the PL and that tiddlywink cup.

[Power n Glory]

No but he said finishing third is better than winning a domestic cup and he's already listed both cups low on the prioritity list in the past. He's also said which is harder to achieve so it's not just from a business perspective either.

[Letters]

The only one pontificating what Wenger thinks here is you
People do it all the time on here :lol:
But when it's rhetoric about how Wenger doesn't care about winning or whatever then no-one picks anyone up about it because it fits in with the general mood on here.


The way you are waving the FA cup around I wouldn't be surprised if you reckon that what with coming 3rd and winning the FA cup, we had a better season overall than City who came 2nd in the PL
We definitely had a better season than City :blink:
You seriously think that finishing 2nd (4 points ahead of us) and winning nothing is better than finishing 3rd and winning the FA Cup?
What, actually, is the big difference between finishing 2nd and 3rd? I don't remember Man City's 2nd place parade.

[Niall_Quinn]

There wouldn't be a 'general mood on here' if Wenger was delivering results that match the resources he has at his disposal.

If Arsenal was a club of the same stature as Swansea then we'd all be singing from the rafters right now. 3rd place and the FA Cup - get out of here, what a season! Amazing manager, look what he has managed to achieve.

But we aren't a club of the stature of Swansea. We're supposedly one of Europe's elites. Yet we haven't won anything of major significance in a decade and we've often had our arses handed to us by rivals we are supposedly on par with.

The explanation/ excuse for this is we are victims of financial doping and can't compete with the volumes of cash the likes of the chavs and gypos dump into their teams.

Yet we were in a position this season to finish above one of those dopers, we had it in our hands. The end result was failure, yet again. So the tired old excuse can persist even though it is no longer valid. This is all certain fans have left in their bag of apologies for Wenger's self-evident underachievement. He has certainly achieved in areas the fans don't give a fuck about - delivering big value to shareholders, keeping big cash flowing into the club. But he has failed dramatically and repeatedly on the pitch. Monaco this year was the latest in a long line of examples.

This manager is not good enough to manage this club. That's what the facts tell us. The FA Cup doesn't even enter the reckoning because we aren't Swansea, are we?

If we're still arguing over the fine points of progress after a decade waiting then it's time to give it up. 12 points behind the champions, still? At this rate of progress it will take us another decade to get to touching distance.

Opinions are fine, the record is what speaks the truth though. And Wenger's record isn't good enough for a club of this stature.

It isn't. Look at it.

[Letters]

We have the 4th biggest resources, we finished 3rd :shrug:
And we won the FA Cup which is more than City or Utd (two of the clubs with bigger resources than us) managed.

EDIT: That was in response to "delivering results that match the resources he has at his disposal".

[Dein-machine]

During Wengers reign at Highbury we won our league a couple of times, went unbeaten one year & very nearly won the Champions League. Then the stadium move. Did we:
A, Move to increase our spending power to enable us to become one of Europe's Elite clubs or:
B, Move to increase the clubs income to make our shareholders even richer than they already were.

If you think the answer is B, then he has been a master & should remain employed forever. If you think the answer should be A, then he has failed miserably & should have been replaced years ago.

Its down to the individuals opinion of why we left Highbury. My opinion is that I heard with my own ears Danny Fitz & Wenger tell us how this move was to push us onto European domination, so its an easy decision for me.

[Niall_Quinn]

We have the 4th biggest resources, we finished 3rd :shrug:
And we won the FA Cup which is more than City or Utd (two of the clubs with bigger resources than us) managed.

EDIT: That was in response to "delivering results that match the resources he has at his disposal".

Facilities, squad, unquestioning backing of the board, and plenty of financial resources.

It's not just a cash thing, as we saw when we moved clear of the gypos and would have finished above them had we not collapsed.

Business end of the season:

Chavs W3 D2 L1 Pts 11
Gypos W6 Pts 18
Us W2 D3 L1 Pts 9

Big games

Chavs 0-0
Mancs (and a very shitty bunch of mancs at that) 1-1

Anyone who thinks the FA Cup suddenly turns that into an acceptable finish to the season is making excuses for the manager.

[Globalgunner]

People do it all the time on here :lol:
But when it's rhetoric about how Wenger doesn't care about winning or whatever then no-one picks anyone up about it because it fits in with the general mood on here.


We definitely had a better season than City :blink:
You seriously think that finishing 2nd (4 points ahead of us) and winning nothing is better than finishing 3rd and winning the FA Cup?
What, actually, is the big difference between finishing 2nd and 3rd? I don't remember Man City's 2nd place parade.

Generally I would agree with you that we had a better season than City. I just threw that out there to test the waters. But in reality If I saw a City fan I wouldnt go bragging that we are a better team than they are. The league is the true determinant of quality. So yeah 3rd+Cup is marginally better than 2nd or no cup, but only for the nice shiny Cup in the boardroom. We are not a better team than City because they showed once again that when push came to shove at the tail end of the season they did what was needed while we as usual blinked in the face of opportunity.

[Power n Glory]

People do it all the time on here :lol:
But when it's rhetoric about how Wenger doesn't care about winning or whatever then no-one picks anyone up about it because it fits in with the general mood on here.


We definitely had a better season than City :blink:
You seriously think that finishing 2nd (4 points ahead of us) and winning nothing is better than finishing 3rd and winning the FA Cup?
What, actually, is the big difference between finishing 2nd and 3rd? I don't remember Man City's 2nd place parade.

The rhetoric on here isn't 'Wenger doesn't care about winning'. That's just wilful ignorance on your part. Wenger has made clear what he deems a priority to this club and that’s what some posters take issue with. In this thread, you’ve said you’ve said the following;


But, as a fan, and surely as a player, it feels better to be lifting and parading a trophy than finishing top 4 and qualifying for the CL.

I’ve pointed out, with Wenger’s own words, how he doesn’t think like the fans or players. He puts CL qualification over a domestic trophy and that’s the difference from your view along with some fans and players. He doesn’t see the domestic cups as a bigger achievement. It helps explain the barren run and why he never put pressure on himself to go for a domestic trophy in the past. It’s where you get yourself into a tangle because you put up this staunch defence of Wenger everytime. If I could drag up old comments when the whole 4th place is a trophy debacle started, I wouldn’t be surprised if you defended Wenger and played down the cups importance.

[GP]

George Bush doesn't care about black people.

[Power n Glory]

:unsure: (Mike Myers)

[Letters]

Business end of the season:

Chavs W3 D2 L1 Pts 11
Gypos W6 Pts 18
Us W2 D3 L1 Pts 9

Wow! And I get accused of skewing statistics...

You can't make sensible comparisons between the 3 sides over the last 6 games because in each case it's 6 completely different games in different circumstances. City had no really difficult games in their last 6 - Spurs away was probably the hardest, on paper, but Spurs long since had the flip-flops on by then.

Arsenal had 2 difficult games and they got decent results in both. Chelsea came and parked the bus, something they're experts at, and that was the only points we dropped in a 10 game run before the Swansea game. A draw away at Utd is never a bad result, they only lost 3 home games all season and they were all silly ones. Chelsea drew there, City lost.

If we did 'collapse' then it was only after the title had gone. When we played Swansea we couldn't be champions any more. Even then we only 'collapsed' from 2nd to 3rd, we did enough at Old Trafford to assure automatic CL qualification. There was some concern about momentum going into the Cup Final but we got a good result on the last day and stormed the Cup Final.

[Globalgunner]

"Sarge, this ones a hopeless case. Can we take him off life support.?"

[Niall_Quinn]

George Bush doesn't care about black people.

He doesn't LIKE black people. But he does care about them a lot, he cares they are in his country and wants them out and he cares about the ones in other countries, especially when it comes to targeting and damage assessment.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wow! And I get accused of skewing statistics...

You can't make sensible comparisons between the 3 sides over the last 6 games because in each case it's 6 completely different games in different circumstances. City had no really difficult games in their last 6 - Spurs away was probably the hardest, on paper, but Spurs long since had the flip-flops on by then.

Arsenal had 2 difficult games and they got decent results in both. Chelsea came and parked the bus, something they're experts at, and that was the only points we dropped in a 10 game run before the Swansea game. A draw away at Utd is never a bad result, they only lost 3 home games all season and they were all silly ones. Chelsea drew there, City lost.

If we did 'collapse' then it was only after the title had gone. When we played Swansea we couldn't be champions any more. Even then we only 'collapsed' from 2nd to 3rd, we did enough at Old Trafford to assure automatic CL qualification. There was some concern about momentum going into the Cup Final but we got a good result on the last day and stormed the Cup Final.

Eh? Which bits have I 'skewed'?

All I've done is listed the numbers you can get directly from the BBC. You are deliberately ignoring the issue, every single time, by throwing a blanket over it and saying we couldn't win the title. So what? So what if we couldn't win the title - there was still 5 games there to win. Why didn't we if we are supposedly positioning ourselves for a title challenge next season? Next season. Next season. Next season. Next season...

Basically your argument is, we couldn't catch the chavs so fuck it, pack it in. As I have already explained to you, that's not a winner's mentality. It's the sort of mentality that accommodates second best status.

[Niall_Quinn]

And what a coincidence that we sweep everything before us in a winning run - right up until we qualified for the CL. Real job done! If that doesn't show you Wenger's priorities and you aren't prepared to accept the words out of his own mouth as you speculate what he thinks and what the players think, etc, etc, what will? Nothing. You have blocked your eyes and ears and refused to be bugged with the facts.

[Letters]

Eh? Which bits have I 'skewed'?Oh come on, stop playing dumb.
You know as well as I do that the numbers need a bit of interpretation. Otherwise I could say:
In the last 3 games Chelsea 'collapsed'

P3 W1 D1 L1 - 4 points out of 9 :pal:

Had that cost them the title it would have been very poor form, but they were already champions, it didn't matter any more. Our 'collapse' cost us 2nd place. Where we differ is how much difference that makes.
We finished 4 points behind City when we might have finished a few points above. We already beat them and drew with them during the season, we showed we can go toe to toe with them. Obsessing about finishing above a certain team is the stuff of Spurs fans, you're either champions or you're not.


You are deliberately ignoring the issue, every single time, by throwing a blanket over it and saying we couldn't win the title. So what?

So, with the title gone and the FA Cup final to consider, I can understand a little taking the eye off the ball.
We did enough to finish 3rd, it got us automatic qualification for the CL.
I was a little concerned that we'd switched off too much and wouldn't have any momentum for the Cup Final but we were superb on the day.


Basically your argument is, we couldn't catch the chavs so fuck it, pack it in.

No, my argument is above. If it was the difference between champions in 2nd then that's not acceptable.
Collapsing to 4th would have been pretty pathetic too, but we didn't go that far.

Last season we won our last 5 games and the Cup, it didn't help us get off to a storming start this season.
There is zero evidence that a good end to one season ensures a good start to the next.

All games matter but some clearly matter more than others, when it really mattered, in the Cup Final, we turned up and did the business.

[Niall_Quinn]

Plainly the gypos don't see it your way.

What did they have to play for when they finished off the season with a 100% record?

For you to think it is understandable to slacken off during a season that lasts 38 games demonstrates vividly why you find second best to be not only acceptable but an achievement. This is where we differ fundamentally. Your mentality is similar to Wenger's. Mine is similar to the manager that needs to come in to replace Wenger.

[Letters]

They had a much easier run in than us and they didn't have a Cup Final to consider.
They can parade their 2nd place trophy if they like.
You ignored the part about Chelsea slacking off of course.

[GP]

Jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

[Letters]

The rhetoric on here isn't 'Wenger doesn't care about winning'. That's just wilful ignorance on your part.

It's more or less a direct quote from some of Zim's posts actually.


I’ve pointed out, with Wenger’s own words, how he doesn’t think like the fans or players. He puts CL qualification over a domestic trophy and that’s the difference from your view along with some fans and players. He doesn’t see the domestic cups as a bigger achievement.

He has a foot in both camps. Obviously he wants to win trophies. Why would any football manager not want to? But he has a background in economics and as the modern game is increasingly a business he sees the value of finishing top 4 because it qualifies you for the CL with all the revenue and prestige that brings.

I think it's pretty obvious what he was saying. He was talking at a time when we hadn't won a trophy for quite a while and was making the point that it's simplistic to see a season when we win a trophy as a 'success' and a season when we don't as a 'failure'.

Clearly finishing 3rd over 38 games is harder than winning a Cup. People have pointed out occasions when lower sides have won the Cup and although those are exceptions they show that in a Cup you can get shock results. Over a league you can't fluke a position in the top 4, you end up there on merit.


It helps explain the barren run and why he never put pressure on himself to go for a domestic trophy in the past.

Now who is making stuff up about what Wenger thinks? Of course he puts pressure on himself, I've heard David Dein say how he has dinner with Wenger after each home game unless we lose in which case they cancel because he's no company when Arsenal have lost. Clearly Wenger doesn't like losing and puts pressure on himself. I'm sure the barren years frustrated him


It’s where you get yourself into a tangle because you put up this staunch defence of Wenger everytime.

No, and I've said this to you before, after our awful start I was pretty firmly in the Wenger Out camp but as we went on the good run, hauled ourselves securely into the top 4, went on the Cup run including the win at Old Trafford my stance softened somewhat. I regard 3rd place and the FA Cup as a pretty decent season, it's 2 trophies in 2 years (I'll leave out the 'major', it's our 3rd priority at the start of the season, but in my estimation it's a far, far bigger prize than the League Cup.


If I could drag up old comments when the whole 4th place is a trophy debacle started, I wouldn’t be surprised if you defended Wenger and played down the cups importance.

Good luck finding that. I've never seen trophies as the be all and end all - I can enjoy a season well enough without them - but clearly a club at our level should be winning them here and there and the number of years without a trophy wasn't good enough. Now the new financial deals are in place we have been signing players which have pushed us on, it's already yielded 2 trophies, we have to push on and properly challenge for the title next year. We should have this year really but after the poor start we gave ourselves no chance. That wasn't good enough but we redeemed ourselves with the good run and the Cup win. IMO that's enough to give Wenger another season, others clearly disagree and that's fine. As someone noted on the latest referendum thread it's all moot anyway, he's staying whatever you or I think.

[Niall_Quinn]

Jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

It can if you use it to fuel a cutting torch.

[Maestro]

Fuck me it gets tiring sometimes

[Power n Glory]

Letter's will always put up a firm defence of whatever decision Wenger makes. Last season when we were top of the table and going into the January transfer window, you should have seen his defence of our inactivity. Supposedly, we had no chance of winning the league, despite being top and the following season we'd have a better shot. My argument, lead from the front and take the opportunity while in contention because we're leading and we can take advantage of our rivals changing managers.

We drop to 4th after leading the league and so we arrive at Letter's 'next season'. This is supposed to be the one where we can challenge plus the FA cup win should fill us with more confidence. What happens? We procrastinated on signing a striker and CB and paid with those decisions early in the season. According to Letter's, this was supposed to be the season where we'd be serious contenders. I'd already written us off because I knew Jose would make sure Chelsea won it. I wasn't wrong and said this last season to Letter's and co.

So lo and behold we arrive at the same conclusion and arguments from Letters. It doesn't help matters when the manager is talking again about not signing a big player and I fear we're in for more déjà vu with the manager and Letter's tired justification for poor decisions by the manager.

[Letters]

Letter's will always put up a firm defence of whatever decision Wenger makes.
:lol:

Back to the WUMming...

[Niall_Quinn]

They had a much easier run in than us and they didn't have a Cup Final to consider.
They can parade their 2nd place trophy if they like.
You ignored the part about Chelsea slacking off of course.

I certainly have not ignored the part about the chavs slacking off. I previously said it's unforgivable that Wenger yet again failed to get a result against them so we could apply steady pressure during the run-in. He bottled it and they had an easy day at our place. Even so, the fact the chavs went and dropped more points made it even less acceptable for us to do the same. Chances of winning the title were slim to non-existent, but the chance to push them as hard as we could have pushed them to the line was right there in our hands. More importantly, the chance to push ourselves as hard as possible to get the maximum return possible is always there regardless of where we are in the table. Instead we "reasonably" dropped half our available points. Again, winner's mentality versus Wenger's mentality.

I don't believe I heard a single gypo talking about the "2nd place trophy". They had 5 games in front of them, they won five games. That's the goal over the 38 games - win. I never once heard a top sportsman claim it was okay to lose, or understandable to lose. I've heard plenty of losers making excuses for losing though.

If we want that sharpness and endurance and ambition required to win a title then all the excuses you are making need to be purged from the squad and chucked in the bin marked absolutely unacceptable. But our manager accepts these excuses - that's the problem.

[Power n Glory]

It's more or less a direct quote from some of Zim's posts actually.



He has a foot in both camps. Obviously he wants to win trophies. Why would any football manager not want to? But he has a background in economics and as the modern game is increasingly a business he sees the value of finishing top 4 because it qualifies you for the CL with all the revenue and prestige that brings.

I think it's pretty obvious what he was saying. He was talking at a time when we hadn't won a trophy for quite a while and was making the point that it's simplistic to see a season when we win a trophy as a 'success' and a season when we don't as a 'failure'.

Clearly finishing 3rd over 38 games is harder than winning a Cup. People have pointed out occasions when lower sides have won the Cup and although those are exceptions they show that in a Cup you can get shock results. Over a league you can't fluke a position in the top 4, you end up there on merit.



Now who is making stuff up about what Wenger thinks? Of course he puts pressure on himself, I've heard David Dein say how he has dinner with Wenger after each home game unless we lose in which case they cancel because he's no company when Arsenal have lost. Clearly Wenger doesn't like losing and puts pressure on himself. I'm sure the barren years frustrated him



No, and I've said this to you before, after our awful start I was pretty firmly in the Wenger Out camp but as we went on the good run, hauled ourselves securely into the top 4, went on the Cup run including the win at Old Trafford my stance softened somewhat. I regard 3rd place and the FA Cup as a pretty decent season, it's 2 trophies in 2 years (I'll leave out the 'major', it's our 3rd priority at the start of the season, but in my estimation it's a far, far bigger prize than the League Cup.



Good luck finding that. I've never seen trophies as the be all and end all - I can enjoy a season well enough without them - but clearly a club at our level should be winning them here and there and the number of years without a trophy wasn't good enough. Now the new financial deals are in place we have been signing players which have pushed us on, it's already yielded 2 trophies, we have to push on and properly challenge for the title next year. We should have this year really but after the poor start we gave ourselves no chance. That wasn't good enough but we redeemed ourselves with the good run and the Cup win. IMO that's enough to give Wenger another season, others clearly disagree and that's fine. As someone noted on the latest referendum thread it's all moot anyway, he's staying whatever you or I think.

I stopped reading after that response to the barren run. How can you not see how his words regarding the FA being at the bottom of our priority lists and not correlate that to the way he'd field 2nd string players in the competition? And then not correlate that fact with the long streak we had without a trophy? :doh:

Maybe if I switch my wording this will connect somehow. Let's say the Board don't see it the domestic cups as a priority, do you think Wenger feel under pressure to win the domestic cups?

[Power n Glory]

:lol:

Back to the WUMming...

That's how I see it and it's not wumming. That response is the WUM post because you can't answer or defend it.

[Letters]

I stopped reading after that response to the barren run.
Then I guess we're done. :shrug:
I've done you the courtesy of reading your posts and respond to them, all you've done is tell me what my opinion is and call me a liar when I say different.
:sleep:

[Power n Glory]

Then I guess we're done. :shrug:
I've done you the courtesy of reading your posts and respond to them, all you've done is tell me what my opinion is and call me a liar when I say different.
:sleep:

Again, you can't defend the part about how Wenger's words and actions correlate because you can't.

[Dein-machine]

I honestly believe that when Wenger played his part in selling us the Emirates dream, he did actually think he could make us the best in Europe. Then the Russian arrived & everything went Pete Tong. Because of his business like approach to football he then became resigned to the fact that we might not win our own league again let alone the C.L., so he hid behind the Sugar Daddy excuse & decided then to become the English version of Barca in order to compete. He never replaced the power & pace we had in the team when the likes of Henry & Viera left, instead building a team of dwarfs around Fabregas to play tippy tappy football. It was too easy to work out & we weren't as good at is as Barca because they simply had better players. We had enough quality to beat most teams in the league which always gave us a chance of top 4 but against better opposition & better tactical managers we were simply too easy to play against.
We saw pivital games like the 8-2 Manc drubbing & losing to Villa at home where he reacted by spending money ( after the season had already started ) - this just proving that deep down he was lying even to himself that his system could work. Liverpool last year would have given Wenger the biggest kick up the arse possible - a team with no more spending power than us were a Stevie G slip away from winning the league, shattering the theory that City & Chelsea are untouchable.
The second half of the season proves that we can compete but does he have it in him to do what is required to guarantee we compete. We need at least 4 more world class players to challenge over a whole season - GK,CB,DM & Striker - the spine of the team has to improve. Its there for all to see, you cannot compete with Aguero & Costa by having Giroud, you cannot compete with Hart & Courtois by having Shez or Ospina or at the start of the season compete with a Matic or Toure by having Arteta. Lets spend on players that we all know we need, we now have the money to do so, there are simply no excuses left for Wenger now.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

I've been thinking this through the past week and my two cents is that we have progressed; it's not as much as I would have liked but we certainly are closer to winning the league than this point last year.

I don't think pointing out the reduction in points has that much merit. For one, four points is barely anything over a course of a season, one fluke result in our favour last year versus a fluke result against us this year can easily change that. Second, no two leagues seasons are ever the same. Teams are different, managers are different, the league can be a lot more or less competitive than before.

You need a more nuanced approach really to analyse it.

When you look at our squad now, it's noticeably better and deeper then it has been in any of the past 10 years with the likes of Sanchez, Ozil, Santi, Ramsey etc etc all players who would start for any of our top four rivals. Additionally, Wenger's shown a lot more flexibility and tactical nous in handling matches something I think everyone has been calling out for ages. And lastly, our results in the big games and games that matter have been a lot more acceptable than they were last year. These are all three massive improvements. There's probably no better direct comparison for this difference than comparing FA cup finals; last year's was a rollercoaster where we nearly fucked up spectacularly whereas this year, it was very comfortable mainly as result of us having better players who could produce a moment of magic (Alexis' goal) and Wenger setting out a plan to nullify the opponents whilst also facilitating our natural game.

One of the best things about the FA cup win was not the win itself but the post match interviews from the players after. All of them to a man came out with the same message about "whilst the FA being good, it was the league next year that they wanted to go for". I think it's something they've collectively discussed recently, probably in a post season debrief where they've looked in the failings of this season. I know the strong WOB's will come out will mock me for it (as it's something that's trotted out often), but honestly, I think next year it the year we put it all together and do the league. I think the players are really motivated for it and I think the manager is as well.

[Globalgunner]

There is nothing the players desire can achieve next year w/o us getting substantially better players in the key positions already identified by many on here. This time next year you will be telling us about the year 2016/17 being the year it all comes together. If Arteta starts any games next year at DM, I will switch off the TV.

[Kano]

Sanchez is the calibre of player we need more of, not just in terms of skill but his attitude toward winning. Hearing him call our season an underachievement says it all about where we are now. We will not recruit or keep players like him if we don't step up next season. Another underwhelming league campaign and he'll be off, without a doubt. He's just seen his old Barca mates tearing it up and he knows 3rd and a cup isn't good enough. If we wanna live in a 60,000 seater stadium, rip off the fans and spend big on star players then domestic cups and avoiding pre-qualifying for the CL isn't enough anymore. The expectation levels have been set and the players that will get you to the very top of the game won't waste their time celebrating an FA Cup all summer.

[Power n Glory]

I doubt he's the only one in the team feeling a little disappointed but I can't say the same for the manager. The FA Cup isn't a big enough trophy to keep these players satisfied and we'll need to raise our game for next season.