Invincibles vs Current Squad MNF Video

[Power n Glory]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztqxfVr5LtE

Interesting video and the comparison of the Invincibles. What the heck happened? Used to score goals in 5 passes now it takes us 500 to score 1.

[Marc Overmars]

Barcelona happened. Then WUMger thought he would abandon his own blueprint for success and (poorly) imitate theirs.

[Kano]

I'll keep saying it - we have no cunts in the team. Almost zero cynicism.

Get that back into the spine of the first eleven and you'll see a massive difference.

Every successful team has their fair share, we used to. It's no surprise that since they left, we haven't won the league. We used to have players opposing teams loved to hate. Now? Not really. Just written off as skilful technicians.

The biggest problem was that the essential pub ethic that is so essential to winning the PL wasn't passed on by the Invincibles as it was to them by the back four of old. They all shipped out of the club too quickly and so there was no continuation of that ethic. Wenger was never going to instil it, that had to from the players but Wenger clearly didn't value it highly enough. That has been one of his biggest mistakes, especially when he leaves his players to their own devices to much.

[Power n Glory]

I don't see how that would make a big difference. We'd kick people more, get more bookings and give away freekicks but what happens when we can't defend the set piece? We'd still be that same tippy tappy team with no purpose going forward but just a bit dirtier. It wouldn't solve our problem imo. What brings it home for me is when Henry said that we'd be in the opponents box with a goalscoring opportunity in 3 to 4 passes. Always looking to play the ball forward. That's a million miles away from the way we're playing now. We need to get that back. Quick bursts of attacks instead of working through gears and trying to build momentum in our attacks.

On the defensive side, we are better and wouldn't say we need cynicism. We just need everyone to have that defending as unit mentality which is what we saw last season. We scored some good counter attacking goals like the old days when we focused more on our defensive shape but now it looks like we're back to the old tippy tappy, squeeze the opponents in their box style.

[Kano]

I don't see how that would make a big difference. We'd kick people more, get more bookings and give away freekicks but what happens when we can't defend the set piece? We'd still be that same tippy tappy team with no purpose going forward but just a bit dirtier. It wouldn't solve our problem imo. What brings it home for me is when Henry said that we'd be in the opponents box with a goalscoring opportunity in 3 to 4 passes. Always looking to play the ball forward. That's a million miles away from the way we're playing now. We need to get that back. Quick bursts of attacks instead of working through gears and trying to build momentum in our attacks.

On the defensive side, we are better and wouldn't say we need cynicism. We just need everyone to have that defending as unit mentality which is what we saw last season. We scored some good counter attacking goals like the old days when we focused more on our defensive shape but now it looks like we're back to the old tippy tappy, squeeze the opponents in their box style.
You don't think that Invincibles side had that in spades? Look at Chelsea, Man City or Man U. All have had and currently have horrible players that have the right mentality for this game. It's naive to think otherwise. Wenger has brainwashed even those fans that want him out into thinking his approach is the right way. It will never work in this league. It can't. It is too raw and aggressive to be played completely the right way. To be a winner you have to be cynical too, able to play dirty - sometimes more obviously than not - but without it you'll be a flash in the pan. The old guard at this club were English scrotes, who understand the horrible side of the game and that was taken on by physically strong players who had flair. Once they left, so did that cynicism and any hint of real success that came with it. Get in guys with the right mentality and physique in places, get rid of speed merchants we play on the wing that 'do a job' and get some specialists who can do the job properly and suddenly things change. Every single title winning side has a few scrotes (as we clearly used to) combined with some flair and proper width. Wenger has even convinced people that Ox, Theo, Welbeck and co are sufficient because they are fast. Absolute rubbish. All those players want to play in the middle and even the managers longer term plan is to play then centrally. He's turning our first eleven into a learning centre, so players can learn their trade in other positions and all the while the team suffers.

Defensively we are only better by our previously low standards. Again I'll keep repeating, our 'improvement' was built off the back of the lesser teams. Look at the results against the top 8 last season and let's discuss how much we improved when it really mattered. Last season the perception was that Citeh had a awful season, yet they still only conceded a few more goals than us. The English media is full of bullshit cliches but some of them are actually true and if someone like Keown says we need a leader in our back line, then given his experience, I'd sit up and listen. Kompany, Vidic, Terry - all massive wankers but the type of player that would instantly improve our defence, if we can look beyond our bias for a second. Fergie'd teams were full of horrible cynical shits but they knew how to play too (well bar the latter years). Why do you think he included Fletcher in title winning squads? For his technical ability? No, because he knew he had bundles of energy and acres of cynicism.

This change can only take place once Wenger leaves and a new mentality is hopefully installed. Until then, we will have to swallow the slow side-to-side football that has taken hold of this team. Ship out the dead wood in the starting eleven and squad and we have to start again. Look at the state of the games played in this league, it has slowly descended into park football season on season, glossed over by billions being spent and flashy presentation. Either we eventually get with it or forget talking about the title ever again.n

You have rose tinted glasses on when you think back to the Invincibles. Sure we played some great, direct passing football but those boys also knew when to disrupt a game, put in a foul, stick up for their team mates and become just as thuggish as the stadium crowd that bays them on.

[Power n Glory]

You do realise the Invincible squad won the Fair Play Award, right? Being tough and able to win a tackle is one thing but we don't need cynicism.

[fakeyank]

Emirates stadium happened, and Wenger got promoted to a bank manager happened.

[Kano]

You do realise the Invincible squad won the Fair Play Award, right? Being tough and able to win a tackle is one thing but we don't need cynicism.

And to do realise cynicism isn't just being an out and out thug right? It's being far smarter than that. It's almost laughable to believe that a successful team doesn't need this in their skill set. Some might dress it up as gamesmanship but it's essentially the same thing. We haven't had that intelligence in our side for at least a decade.

[Power n Glory]

And to do realise cynicism isn't just being an out and out thug right? It's being far smarter than that. It's almost laughable to believe that a successful team doesn't need this in their skill set. Some might dress it up as gamesmanship but it's essentially the same thing. We haven't had that intelligence in our side for at least a decade.

What's laughable is how much your overstating it's importance. Facts are facts and that team played cleaner than the sort of teams you describe. Gilberto Silva was probably the neatest cleanest tackling DM, Sol and Kolo we're tough but clean tackling as well. It's not about cynicism. It's not essential to win a title. Good tackling and a strong work rate is important. Players able to handle the physical side is important.

It boils down to one question. If we signed a cynical player in the transfer window, would that make us title contenders?

[Kano]

H
What's laughable is how much your overstating it's importance. Facts are facts and that team played cleaner than the sort of teams you describe. Gilberto Silva was probably the neatest cleanest tackling DM, Sol and Kolo we're tough but clean tackling as well. It's not about cynicism. It's not essential to win a title. Good tackling and a strong work rate is important. Players able to handle the physical side is important.

It boils down to one question. If we signed a cynical player in the transfer window, would that make us title contenders?

See this is the problem. You keep reverting back to it being dirty. That's your misconception you can't get past. But it also proves my point. People didn't hate Vieira, Edu, Lehmann, Parlour, Bergkamp and his flying elbows and Lauren out of pure jealousy. They were hated like rivals fans now dislike the pricks in the Chelsea, City and (old) Utd teams. Fans will scream out how unfair it is they get away with certain things, exactly the same type of cynical approach we used to employ alongside the better side of our game.

Gamesmanship (we'll call it that now as it might help you) is made up of far more than just sticking your boot in. Playing that card doesn't turn you into Stoke, that is just pure desperation. It comes down to mentality, one of knowing when to do the smaller, uglier things in a game that allows everything else to flourish. I can't think of a team, or a champion in any sport who doesn't understand how important that element is to their game. And no, one player is not going to change the direction of the club. That will only happen when the manager leaves and we can get rid of the deadwood in this squad. It is going to take far more than just one player to change the route we've fallen upon for so long.

[Power n Glory]

H

See this is the problem. You keep reverting back to it being dirty. That's your misconception you can't get past. But it also proves my point. People didn't hate Vieira, Edu, Lehmann, Parlour, Bergkamp and his flying elbows and Lauren out of pure jealousy. They were hated like rivals fans now dislike the pricks in the Chelsea, City and (old) Utd teams. Fans will scream out how unfair it is they get away with certain things, exactly the same type of cynical approach we used to employ alongside the better side of our game.

Gamesmanship (we'll call it that now as it might help you) is made up of far more than just sticking your boot in. Playing that card doesn't turn you into Stoke, that is just pure desperation. It comes down to mentality, one of knowing when to do the smaller, uglier things in a game that allows everything else to flourish. I can't think of a team, or a champion in any sport who doesn't understand how important that element is to their game. And no, one player is not going to change the direction of the club. That will only happen when the manager leaves and we can get rid of the deadwood in this squad. It is going to take far more than just one player to change the route we've fallen upon for so long.

And how does that help if you can't score a goal? Or you can't break down a stubborn defence? It doesn't. We're missing more than just a few cynical players and most on here would fancy our title chances a lot more if we had a world class striker on board that could score 30 goals over one or two cynical players. You could swap Kos and Merts for Terry and Kompany and I'd still say we'd struggle on attack and scoring goals.

[Kano]

And how does that help if you can't score a goal? Or you can't break down a stubborn defence? It doesn't. We're missing more than just a few cynical players and most on here would fancy our title chances a lot more if we had a world class striker on board that could score 30 goals over one or two cynical players. You could swap Kos and Merts for Terry and Kompany and I'd still say we'd struggle on attack and scoring goals.
You can be one of the most infuriating people to debate with PnG. Read my first post. The point where I said we need some physicality and proper width from players that understand that position. The repeated point I’ve made about the manager leaving and taking his frustrating footballing style with him? Read the posts PnG, read them. Don’t just find a point and open up a reply based solely on a couple of sentences. I’d understand if you were replying to multiple posters but it’s just me for crying out loud. Nowhere have I said that cynicism is going to win us a title by itself. It will help significantly because it will make us more competitive but that won’t rectify the tactical issues. I’ll repeat: We need a new manager, 3-5 new players and an entirely new mentality at the club.

[Letters]

I'm not sure how sensible it is to compare us to The Invincibles. I remember at the time thinking "this is as good as it gets" and realising that almost certainly I'd never see an Arsenal side that good again.
The other thing that happened of course is the billionaires sicking their beaks in, inflating the market and hoovering up a lot of the best talent. And other sides getting wise to our training method and scouting in other countries, we're not fitter than other teams any more and we're not able to cherry pick foreign talent before it's on other team's radar any more.

[BOBN]

Tippy tappy players are cheap. Clubs churn out small, pass merchants like Fabregas by the boatload these days. Its easy. Teaching technical players to play *a two touch passing game is all mental, theory, its all about limiting their ambition on the ball and getting them to find pockets of space. You can do it in the classroom. The transfer market accepts this. If we sold Wilshere and Cazorla tomorrow big deal, just go to Eastern Europe and find two Modric types for £12m each.

Also if you overload your team with these types of players people will say you play good football no matter what happens, even if you dont. The ego of Wenger loves this fact, plus the cheapness and interchangability (helpful when you know you cant hold on to players).

Technical players with genuine athletic ability/physical gifts or flair. These are rare, any mug in an academy cant produce these with clipboard. In fact academies/Europe cant produce flair players which is why Barca had to import their strikeforce. The market doesn't take any risks with these. Looking like the new Ronaldinho, Suarez, Messi? That'll be £50m please.

Any guy that looks like hes an athlete with technical ability? Rare. *The market doesn't hang around waiting to see if they will live up to the potential. Walcott at 16? £12m. Pogba? £80m. Martial? £36m. Sterling? £50m Barkley £50m.

Why look for the new Vieira when you can just get Fabregas who has equal technical ability, they can pretty much both run a game right? Wrong. A Fabregas can only run a game on a good day, when protected, in Autumn, when the other team doesnt have the antidote. Fergie put in his book how to stop new Arsenal, "I used to think we had to kick them up in the air because they had better players but then realised you just had to stay compact, stand off, intercept passes, hit on the break". There is no antidote for Yaya Toure, apart from denying him a birthday cake.

tl,dr: Wenger thought he could wing it with tippy tappy players because they are cheap and interchangeable.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not sure how sensible it is to compare us to The Invincibles. I remember at the time thinking "this is as good as it gets" and realising that almost certainly I'd never see an Arsenal side that good again.
The other thing that happened of course is the billionaires sicking their beaks in, inflating the market and hoovering up a lot of the best talent. And other sides getting wise to our training method and scouting in other countries, we're not fitter than other teams any more and we're not able to cherry pick foreign talent before it's on other team's radar any more.

Very sensible. That's the standard we set ourselves. We are way below it because the manager has been fucking up for 10 years. It's not entirely his fault. He was handed the task of keeping the team at least semi-successful while a bunch of old farts engineered a 10,000% return on their investment. The whole purpose of the club got bent towards that goal rather than the goal on the pitch.

The money thing is a smokescreen. That's not what prevents us picking up the top talent. Wenger introduced the English cave managers to scouting methods that went beyond staring into backyards with binoculars. Now everyone is doing it. Vieira and Henry were players their respective clubs didn't want to keep. Wenger also introduced a whole new set of rules for being a professional footballer and players at Arsenal thrived when they hadn't been able to make the breakthrough elsewhere. Again, everyone is now doing it.

Wenger used to be a bloody genius. He's not now. He's a stubborn old goat. Probably made cynical by the outrageous bastards who looted the club and handed it over to the miserly yank.

[Letters]

Everyone is way below it...

[Niall_Quinn]

Absolutely right we need a couple of bastards in the team. Vidal, Vidal, fucking, fucking Vidal - how the fuck did we pass that one up? Scandal.

Bastards don't need to go around punching out the opposition. They just need to make the opposition believe they'll get a smack in the mouth if they step out of line. Vieira had games one in the tunnel, that's why it was such a big deal when he used to meet the one guy who would stand up to him - Roy Keane.

Bastards can ensure Alexis doesn't get kicked every 2 mins, as is currently the case. The likes of Vieira and Keown made it their personal business to hold grudges and hand out payback. Teams were afraid of us. We could beat them in a fist fight and we could beat them at technical football. It was a beautiful balance. Now we are the most unbalanced team in the league.

Coquelin is developing into a bastard. Which is why we should have bought cover for him because no way is he going to remain suspension free this season.

[Letters]

You said "one" :haha:

:cool:

[Niall_Quinn]

Everyone is way below it...

Why do you always look everywhere bar home? Who cares what everyone else is doing? Provided we are the very best we can be we'll take on all-comers, won't we?

Same manager. Part of being a legendary manager is staying at the top when the environment changes around you. Ferguson managed it. His final title win was miraculous, he literally shovelled a pile of shite to the finish line, despite the Russian oligarchs. The excuses people make for Wenger don't stack up. He made his decisions and they were the wrong decisions. He did the opposite of Ferguson, he took something good and turned it to shit.

[Niall_Quinn]

You said "one" :haha:

:cool:

How immature

[Power n Glory]

You can be one of the most infuriating people to debate with PnG. Read my first post. The point where I said we need some physicality and proper width from players that understand that position. The repeated point I’ve made about the manager leaving and taking his frustrating footballing style with him? Read the posts PnG, read them. Don’t just find a point and open up a reply based solely on a couple of sentences. I’d understand if you were replying to multiple posters but it’s just me for crying out loud. Nowhere have I said that cynicism is going to win us a title by itself. It will help significantly because it will make us more competitive but that won’t rectify the tactical issues. I’ll repeat: We need a new manager, 3-5 new players and an entirely new mentality at the club.

It's frustrating because I don't agree with you and break it down to the simplest point. I've read your pots. We could have Kompany, Terry, and Fletcher....it doesn't solve our problems or increase our chances of winning a title again. It's that simple. You say the lack of cynicism is our biggest problem and essential to winning the PL. I disagree. I think your overemphasizing the importance of cynicism because I believe a superstar striker would enhance our chances by a great deal and without having the cynical player your talking about. I don't believe we're 4 players away from winning the league.

Also, just be careful with how you word things if you don't want me to get the wrong end of the stick.


You have rose tinted glasses on when you think back to the Invincibles. Sure we played some great, direct passing football but those boys also knew when to disrupt a game, put in a foul, stick up for their team mates and become just as thuggish as the stadium crowd that bays them on.


Why do you think he included Fletcher in title winning squads? For his technical ability? No, because he knew he had bundles of energy and acres of cynicism.


To be a winner you have to be cynical too, able to play dirty - sometimes more obviously than not - but without it you'll be a flash in the pan. The old guard at this club were English scrotes, who understand the horrible side of the game and that was taken on by physically strong players who had flair.

Was I wrong to point out that the Invincibles won the Fair Play award? It's just a fact. They were tough, they could hold their own and had a physical presence but it's different to what your describing. It's not essential to every title winning team and I think you've overcooked the importance.

[Power n Glory]

I'm not sure how sensible it is to compare us to The Invincibles. I remember at the time thinking "this is as good as it gets" and realising that almost certainly I'd never see an Arsenal side that good again.
The other thing that happened of course is the billionaires sicking their beaks in, inflating the market and hoovering up a lot of the best talent. And other sides getting wise to our training method and scouting in other countries, we're not fitter than other teams any more and we're not able to cherry pick foreign talent before it's on other team's radar any more.

I think that's where your going wrong. Football has changed but our style has totally changed as well. The pace up front has gone. Instead of an Anelka or Henry, we're bringing in team player strikers like Chamakh, Giroud and Sanogo. Players that help play the percentage passes instead of attacking space and getting forward quickly. As Theirry said, it used to take 4 passes to get into our opponents box. We'd win the ball back and then we'd break on a team. That doesn't happen now. We play the slow build up game. We have too many players that play the percentage passes instead of taking on a player and taking the initiative.

[Letters]

Part of being a legendary manager is staying at the top when the environment changes around you. Ferguson managed it. His final title win was miraculous, he literally shovelled a pile of shite to the finish line, despite the Russian oligarchs.
I agree. Wenger's not at that level, but I don't think anyone else is either. Comparing anyone to Ferguson is like comparing a striker to Henry. They will come up short but that doesn't mean they're no good.
Despite his flaws Wenger's not the idiot some on here make him out to be either.

[Niall_Quinn]

I agree. Wenger's not at that level, but I don't think anyone else is either. Comparing anyone to Ferguson is like comparing a striker to Henry. They will come up short but that doesn't mean they're no good.
Despite his flaws Wenger's not the idiot some on here make him out to be either.

He's not an idiot but he does some very idiotic things, and then does them again repeatedly.

[Kano]

It's frustrating because I don't agree with you and break it down to the simplest point. I've read your pots. We could have Kompany, Terry, and Fletcher....it doesn't solve our problems or increase our chances of winning a title again. It's that simple. You say the lack of cynicism is our biggest problem and essential to winning the PL. I disagree. I think your overemphasizing the importance of cynicism because I believe a superstar striker would enhance our chances by a great deal and without having the cynical player your talking about. I don't believe we're 4 players away from winning the league.

Also, just be careful with how you word things if you don't want me to get the wrong end of the stick.







Was I wrong to point out that the Invincibles won the Fair Play award? It's just a fact. They were tough, they could hold their own and had a physical presence but it's different to what your describing. It's not essential to every title winning team and I think you've overcooked the importance.

I couldn’t have been more clearer than repeating the same points in each post - you just haven't been paying close enough attention to them enough to incorporate the full context. Again, nowhere have I stated it is the most important element. It is a crucial aspect that will improve our chances but I have repeatedly gone on to quality that point further, along with the other elements need to improve our team. It’s all there in black and erm, grey.

And yes you are wrong to point out the Fair Play league because still, incredibly, you are reverting the conversation back to fouls. Cynicism/Gamesmanship isn’t merely about that. Being regarded as a bastard by opposing fans incorporates far more. I think we all know, or should do, that the teams of old weren't summed up by the Invincibles. We regularly picked up a steam of red and yellow cards throughout the entire period we were contesting the title for a 7/8 years. It is no coincidence that the attitude of the team was remarkably different to the one we have now, technical skills are not enough in this league. And again, just to repeat for the tenth time, that does not make it the most important aspect but one of many and it doesn’t mean you have to be Stoke to win the league.

And yes, at least 3/4 new players are needed. We have no wingers - a few guys that can run fast won’t cut it. They all want to play as striker or central midfield. They are just ‘doing a job’ not players who really know how to make the most of space, technically proficient enough to beat a man constantly, cross the ball, cut inside, drop back/push forward at the right times. We have a DM who hasn’t even played a full season of football yet, he needs help and someone else to learn from. We of course need striker. We need a stronger, better defender than we have because what we have isn’t good enough right now. We haven’t improved enough defensively to the point of making them comparably good enough to the better sides at the top, our defensive stats from last season show that clearly, all that happened is we stopped the absolute carnage that happened on a number of occasions in 13/14. We managed to look good against the mid to poor teams in the league, our poor return of points from the top 8 for the last two seasons shows that. There was no progression last year beyond winning a cup, which has no impact on our performances in the league.

[I am invisible]

...Interesting video and the comparison of the Invincibles. What the heck happened? Used to score goals in 5 passes now it takes us 500 to score 1.


Barcelona happened. Then WUMger thought he would abandon his own blueprint for success and (poorly) imitate theirs.

What happened was that the dipshits that are paid to run the game managed to mess the offside rule up to such an extent that everyone simply stopped playing the offside trap and high lines, and started to sit a lot deeper when defending. Football is pretty much all about attacking space, and that one moved changed where all the space was: in that first part of Wenger's Arsenal career, all the space was behind defensive lines, and the game was dominated by pacey forwards and wide men who could ruthlessly exploit it; since that offside rule change, all the space has shifted to the middle of the park, as the 2 opposing defences retreated further towards their own areas, and as a result we've seen teams sacrificing an attacker for an extra midfielder, with more emphasis placed on powerful, lone-CF types, who can hold their own in a packed area, and goal-scoring central midfielders, like Lampard and Gerrard.

Unfortunately, we were particularly slow in reacting to that change. We carried on plugging away with our high line and 4 pacey forwards (possibly because we enjoyed the most success with that style of play?) long after everyone else had switched to 451s / 433s, and it played right into our opponents' hands. Not only did we add to the problem of there being no space to work with in the final third, because we ended up pressing all our players deeper and deeper into the opponents half, trying to lay seige to packed areas (this is where all the extra touches started to creep into our game, as we were left probing for openings that weren't there), but we also ended up being the only team in the league who were still playing a high line and leaving acres of space in our own final third (or half!) to exploit, so we were easy pickings for counter-attacks.

Barcelona undoubtedly compounded the problem a few years later, by being so bloody good at that tippy-tappy crap, and making everyone want to emulate it, but IMO it was all that 'interfering with play' nonsense that did the most damage...

[Power n Glory]

I couldn’t have been more clearer than repeating the same points in each post - you just haven't been paying close enough attention to them enough to incorporate the full context. Again, nowhere have I stated it is the most important element. It is a crucial aspect that will improve our chances but I have repeatedly gone on to quality that point further, along with the other elements need to improve our team. It’s all there in black and erm, grey.

And yes you are wrong to point out the Fair Play league because still, incredibly, you are reverting the conversation back to fouls. Cynicism/Gamesmanship isn’t merely about that. Being regarded as a bastard by opposing fans incorporates far more. I think we all know, or should do, that the teams of old weren't summed up by the Invincibles. We regularly picked up a steam of red and yellow cards throughout the entire period we were contesting the title for a 7/8 years. It is no coincidence that the attitude of the team was remarkably different to the one we have now, technical skills are not enough in this league. And again, just to repeat for the tenth time, that does not make it the most important aspect but one of many and it doesn’t mean you have to be Stoke to win the league.

And yes, at least 3/4 new players are needed. We have no wingers - a few guys that can run fast won’t cut it. They all want to play as striker or central midfield. They are just ‘doing a job’ not players who really know how to make the most of space, technically proficient enough to beat a man constantly, cross the ball, cut inside, drop back/push forward at the right times. We have a DM who hasn’t even played a full season of football yet, he needs help and someone else to learn from. We of course need striker. We need a stronger, better defender than we have because what we have isn’t good enough right now. We haven’t improved enough defensively to the point of making them comparably good enough to the better sides at the top, our defensive stats from last season show that clearly, all that happened is we stopped the absolute carnage that happened on a number of occasions in 13/14. We managed to look good against the mid to poor teams in the league, our poor return of points from the top 8 for the last two seasons shows that. There was no progression last year beyond winning a cup, which has no impact on our performances in the league.

Yes, you have. I'm paying very close attention. Are you? I don't know what you're reading, but when you say things like the below....


I'll keep saying it - we have no cunts in the team. Almost zero cynicism.

Get that back into the spine of the first eleven and you'll see a massive difference.

Every successful team has their fair share, we used to. It's no surprise that since they left, we haven't won the league. We used to have players opposing teams loved to hate. Now? Not really. Just written off as skilful technicians.

The biggest problem was that the essential pub ethic that is so essential to winning the PL wasn't passed on by the Invincibles as it was to them by the back four of old. They all shipped out of the club too quickly and so there was no continuation of that ethic. Wenger was never going to instil it, that had to from the players but Wenger clearly didn't value it highly enough. That has been one of his biggest mistakes, especially when he leaves his players to their own devices to much.


That's your first post in the thread about this topic. Nothing taken out of context and the emphasis is cynicism. When use terms like 'massive difference', 'biggest problem' and 'essential to winning the PL', what do you expect? What message are you trying to convey. I don't know if it's just me but that whole message is focused on getting that back into our game. Mentions nothing of tactics, getting a goal scorer, being more organised, nothing.

Second post....


You don't think that Invincibles side had that in spades? Look at Chelsea, Man City or Man U. All have had and currently have horrible players that have the right mentality for this game. It's naive to think otherwise. Wenger has brainwashed even those fans that want him out into thinking his approach is the right way. It will never work in this league. It can't. It is too raw and aggressive to be played completely the right way. To be a winner you have to be cynical too, able to play dirty - sometimes more obviously than not - but without it you'll be a flash in the pan. The old guard at this club were English scrotes, who understand the horrible side of the game and that was taken on by physically strong players who had flair. Once they left, so did that cynicism and any hint of real success that came with it.


Every single title winning side has a few scrotes (as we clearly used to) combined with some flair and proper width.

Now this is the first and only time you mention proper width in your post but overall the emphasis on how other title winning teams have 'scrotes' in their team and since we've gotten rid of that mentality, we've won nothing. Again, overplaying the importance.


It comes down to mentality, one of knowing when to do the smaller, uglier things in a game that allows everything else to flourish. I can't think of a team, or a champion in any sport who doesn't understand how important that element is to their game. And no, one player is not going to change the direction of the club. That will only happen when the manager leaves and we can get rid of the deadwood in this squad. It is going to take far more than just one player to change the route we've fallen upon for so long.

This is all very long winded but you really can't accuse me of not reading your posts properly when you overemphasize one element of the game we lack. I break it down simply by asking if we added Terry, Kompany and Fletcher to our squad, would it everything flow from their and make us title contenders? No. It's not just a case of combing technical flair players with the cynical. Ok, now your saying it's not the most important aspect but read your posts again.

[Power n Glory]

What happened was that the dipshits that are paid to run the game managed to mess the offside rule up to such an extent that everyone simply stopped playing the offside trap and high lines, and started to sit a lot deeper when defending. Football is pretty much all about attacking space, and that one moved changed where all the space was: in that first part of Wenger's Arsenal career, all the space was behind defensive lines, and the game was dominated by pacey forwards and wide men who could ruthlessly exploit it; since that offside rule change, all the space has shifted to the middle of the park, as the 2 opposing defences retreated further towards their own areas, and as a result we've seen teams sacrificing an attacker for an extra midfielder, with more emphasis placed on powerful, lone-CF types, who can hold their own in a packed area, and goal-scoring central midfielders, like Lampard and Gerrard.

Unfortunately, we were been particularly slow in reacting to that change. We carried on plugging away with our high line and 4 pacey forwards (possibly because we enjoyed the most success with that style of play?) long after everyone else had switched to 451s / 433s, and it played right into our opponents' hands. Not only did we add to the problem of there being no space to work with in the final third, because we ended up pressing all our players deeper and deeper into the opponents half, trying to lay seige to packed areas (this is where all the extra touches started to creep into our game, as we were left probing for openings that weren't there), but we also ended up being the only team in the league who were still playing a high line and leaving acres of space in our own final third (or half!) to exploit, so we were easy pickings for counter-attacks.

Barcelona undoubtedly compounded the problem a few years later, by being so bloody good at that tippy-tappy crap, and making everyone want to emulate it, but IMO it was all that 'interfering with play' nonsense that did the most damage...

Yes, I agree with you on that. Henry said the arrival of Cesc changed the mentality as well and he's probably right. It's a combination of it all. But the question is how do we sort this problem out? Can we go back to our old way of playing? The thing I noticed more about the start of last season was the focus we had on defending deeper, holding our shape and counter attacking. Remember there was a period where we were happy to let our opponents have the ball or maybe it was the lack of cohesion in the middle that gave that impression. But as we grow more efficient with our passing and try to play in our opponents half, we have no space to work with. It's the tippy tappy crap. What's worse, even in games where there was space in the final third like in the Liverpool game, we're not looking to break on the team and attack the space behind. Maybe that's down to the wrong players being on the pitch but that probing for an opening style we have needs to go.

[Kano]

Yes, you have. I'm paying very close attention. Are you? I don't know what you're reading, but when you say things like the below....



That's your first post in the thread about this topic. Nothing taken out of context and the emphasis is cynicism. When use terms like 'massive difference', 'biggest problem' and 'essential to winning the PL', what do you expect? What message are you trying to convey. I don't know if it's just me but that whole message is focused on getting that back into our game. Mentions nothing of tactics, getting a goal scorer, being more organised, nothing.

Second post....





Now this is the first and only time you mention proper width in your post but overall the emphasis on how other title winning teams have 'scrotes' in their team and since we've gotten rid of that mentality, we've won nothing. Again, overplaying the importance.



This is all very long winded but you really can't accuse me of not reading your posts properly when you overemphasize one element of the game we lack. I break it down simply by asking if we added Terry, Kompany and Fletcher to our squad, would it everything flow from their and make us title contenders? No. It's not just a case of combing technical flair players with the cynical. Ok, now your saying it's not the most important aspect but read your posts again.

Exactly. Tiring. instead of responding to the argument you are just trying to pick holes in adjectives and part-quoting comments out of context. You do this all the time PnG and I'm not the only it wears thin on. I've said all I can on the subject. Make of it as you wish. Which you will of course.

[Power n Glory]

Exactly. Tiring. instead of responding to the argument you are just trying to pick holes in adjectives and part-quoting comments out of context. You do this all the time PnG and I'm not the only it wears thin on. I've said all I can on the subject. Make of it as you wish. Which you will of course.

Stop whinging and crying for help. I've taken nothing out of context. It's a simple disagreement and I've responded to your argument completely and disagree.

[Injury Time]

:handbags:
Anyhoo surely thread should be renamed "Invisbles vrs Invisibles #Wengerstealingaliving"?
"I did not zee any top top quality zignings az I was looking down some ow you say "bint's" top."

[Mr. Lahey]

I'll keep saying it - we have no cunts in the team. Almost zero cynicism.

Get that back into the spine of the first eleven and you'll see a massive difference.

Every successful team has their fair share, we used to. It's no surprise that since they left, we haven't won the league. We used to have players opposing teams loved to hate. Now? Not really. Just written off as skilful technicians.

The biggest problem was that the essential pub ethic that is so essential to winning the PL wasn't passed on by the Invincibles as it was to them by the back four of old. They all shipped out of the club too quickly and so there was no continuation of that ethic. Wenger was never going to instil it, that had to from the players but Wenger clearly didn't value it highly enough. That has been one of his biggest mistakes, especially when he leaves his players to their own devices to much.

Agreed - there was a mentality in those teams that did not put up with any BS from other teams but could dish it out themselves. GN and JC highlighted it in the video, those Arsenal teams had other teams scared in the tunnel before the game because they knew they were in for a fight, GN "it was never fun to play games against Arsenal". Im a believer in the psychological aspect of sport and I do believe that this does influence the outcome of matches.

[I am invisible]

Yes, I agree with you on that. Henry said the arrival of Cesc changed the mentality as well and he's probably right. It's a combination of it all. But the question is how do we sort this problem out? Can we go back to our old way of playing? The thing I noticed more about the start of last season was the focus we had on defending deeper, holding our shape and counter attacking. Remember there was a period where we were happy to let our opponents have the ball or maybe it was the lack of cohesion in the middle that gave that impression. But as we grow more efficient with our passing and try to play in our opponents half, we have no space to work with. It's the tippy tappy crap. What's worse, even in games where there was space in the final third like in the Liverpool game, we're not looking to break on the team and attack the space behind. Maybe that's down to the wrong players being on the pitch but that probing for an opening style we have needs to go.
I certainly prefer watching that more open, counter-attacking game, but I guess the inherent problem with it is that it only really works as long as the other team are actually prepared to attack if you let them have the ball. What happens when the other team turn up with the same gameplan though? Does it still work? I think this is where we tend to get suckered back into that tippy-tappy, probing, passing stuff - when you're charging the fans as much as we are, you simply can't justify letting the game descend into a turgid mexican stand-off, and it's usually us that ends up having to make the first move because of it.

I'm not sure what the answer is, to be honest mate - maybe there isn't one? As you say, pick the right players for the right game, make sure you have some decent variety on the bench if you get it wrong, and then see where the game takes you...

[Kano]

Agreed - there was a mentality in those teams that did not put up with any BS from other teams but could dish it out themselves. GN and JC highlighted it in the video, those Arsenal teams had other teams scared in the tunnel before the game because they knew they were in for a fight, GN "it was never fun to play games against Arsenal". Im a believer in the psychological aspect of sport and I do believe that this does influence the outcome of matches.
The whole period when we were challenging for titles regularly featured games where we'd pick up yellows and a stack of red cards - I think over two thirds of the sending offs we collected under Wenger were by players who who were in those teams. It is no coincidence that since our overall discipline improved, our general performance levels have dropped. As you said, there was a fear about playing our old teams, not just because of their ability but because they knew they would impose themselves physically on their opponents too. But you don't just gain the rep of being a bastard by just being a thug, there is a lot more that goes into the dark arts of managing a game and undermining the opposition.

[Power n Glory]

I certainly prefer watching that more open, counter-attacking game, but I guess the inherent problem with it is that it only really works as long as the other team are actually prepared to attack if you let them have the ball. What happens when the other team turn up with the same gameplan though? Does it still work? I think this is where we tend to get suckered back into that tippy-tappy, probing, passing stuff - when you're charging the fans as much as we are, you simply can't justify letting the game descend into a turgid mexican stand-off, and it's usually us that ends up having to make the first move because of it.

I'm not sure what the answer is, to be honest mate - maybe there isn't one? As you say, pick the right players for the right game, make sure you have some decent variety on the bench if you get it wrong, and then see where the game takes you...

Very true. The opposition need to be willing to attack in order to be counter attacked. But over the past couple of seasons, teams are a lot braver and willing to attack us. I'm thinking of teams like Swansea, Everton and Southampton. Not in all cases of course, but in such cases where teams park the bus, we shouldn't be so obsessed with keeping possession. If they've been preparing all week without the ball, let's put the onus on them to keep possession for periods and see how comfortable they are on the ball. We may be able to capitalise off their mistakes and sloppy passing. All depends if . we can get the energy levels up and team willing to defend as a unit and press. We'll see what the season brings but we have to try something new.

[Özim]

We had better players (don't care what anyone says but almost all of those players were better than what we have, either as a unit or individually), we had much more aggresion in the team, we had better goalscorers and had more winners who fought for every ball (just look at our workrate compared to now) and we played much better football (more inventive, less predictable and generally less boring to watch).

Night and day for me, one was a world class team the other is a wannabe world class team who's egoes are massaged by Wenger, bar 2-3 players none of the guys we have today would even get in the squad.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Four or five players for me (and that's in the first team)

Would take Cech over Lehmann
Koscielny over Toure
Ozil (wouldn't take him over Bergkamp but probably couldn't play 4-4-2 now days)
Sanchez over Ljungberg
Bellerin over Lauren

Coquelin would get in the squad
Gabriel miles better than Pascal Cygan
A lot of players in our squad better than Edu
Walcott and Ox for me better than Reyes


The unbeaten side we have a magnificent first eleven but actually the squad depth wasn't brilliant

[Marc Overmars]

What made them great was that the team was the optimum sum of it's parts. Partnerships all over the pitch and teamwork in abundance, all of them were warriors.

The depth wasn't brilliant but we had reliable players like Wiltord, Kanu and Edu who could seamlessly slot in.

[Bumble]

What made them great was that the team was the optimum sum of it's parts. Partnerships all over the pitch and teamwork in abundance, all of them were warriors.

The depth wasn't brilliant but we had reliable players like Wiltord, Kanu and Edu who could seamlessly slot in.
Don't forget the Romford Pele too.

I would have Lauren ahead of Bellerin too. Keown was around the squad as well. You also knew the best 11 so they could build understandings. They were fast and strong and skilful. The best team to have played in the Premier League ever.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What made them great was that the team was the optimum sum of it's parts. Partnerships all over the pitch and teamwork in abundance, all of them were warriors.

The depth wasn't brilliant but we had reliable players like Wiltord, Kanu and Edu who could seamlessly slot in.

I'd agree with that to an extent, it was the cohesiveness of the well oiled machine rather than just individual brilliance that made that side (although we did have brilliant individuals).

Henry summed it up on MNF, it's something I have felt for a while and have said on here but Fabregas was the game changer and even now we seem to set up in a way that was originally geared to accommodate him.

What we had before hand was far more direct, win the ball back in defence, run one, two Maybe three passes and then in on goal. Lightning thrust counter attack....players in support overlapping it was hard to defend against....one second you've won a corner and ten seconds later you're picking the ball out of your own net.

[Marc Overmars]

IMO Wenger's biggest oversight of his tenure here is not replacing Vieria, we haven't had a ball winner in midfield since as far as I'm concerned. I'd probably even say we miss Vieira more than Henry.

[BOBN]

What made them great was that the team was the optimum sum of it's parts. Partnerships all over the pitch and teamwork in abundance, all of them were warriors.

The depth wasn't brilliant but we had reliable players like Wiltord, Kanu and Edu who could seamlessly slot in.
Not really tbh

Sol Campbell - Best in the world in his position
Henry - Best in the world in his position
Pires - Best in the world in his position (in 2002)
Vieira - Best in the world in his position
Ashley Cole - Best in the world in his position
Bergkamp - I'm told he was one of the best in the world in his position

Massively underperformed for me.

[Marc Overmars]

Not really tbh

Sol Campbell - Best in the world in his position
Henry - Best in the world in his position
Pires - Best in the world in his position (in 2002)
Vieira - Best in the world in his position
Ashley Cole - Best in the world in his position
Bergkamp - I'm told he was one of the best in the world in his position

Massively underperformed for me.

One of the biggest regrets for me was throwing away the 03 title. That should have been 3 titles on the spin.

[BOBN]

One of the biggest regrets for me was throwing away the 03 title. That should have been 3 titles on the spin.
I added a comment about the 2003 miss but deleted it.

The biggest regret. After Wayne Bridge.

[mastermind84]

IMO Wenger's biggest oversight of his tenure here is not replacing Vieria, we haven't had a ball winner in midfield since as far as I'm concerned. I'd probably even say we miss Vieira more than Henry.

Oversight?

Can you point to another Patrick Vieira in football today?


You can't replace a once-in-a-kind player. There are 3-man midfields now because there isn't a Vieira.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

IMO Wenger's biggest oversight of his tenure here is not replacing Vieria, we haven't had a ball winner in midfield since as far as I'm concerned. I'd probably even say we miss Vieira more than Henry.

The problem wasn't so much in winning the ball deep (as we still had Gilberto for that) but the genius of Vieira was he was the ultimate box to box player he could win the ball deep but also either run with it or distribute it so we could break with pace. The problem when he went and what we still have today is that we tend to dither so much on the counter that the other team is able to get men back by the time we get out of our own third.

[Marc Overmars]

Oversight?

Can you point to another Patrick Vieira in football today?

We didn't need a clone, I just don't think passive pass merchant like Fabregas was ever going to be adequate enough.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Coquelin is an excellent DM and works his nuts off chasing back but his ball distribution and his ability to run with the ball to set up an attack is limited and that's why you need someone sitting deep alongside him. Wenger does recognise this and has opted to play Cazorla in the box to box position which he can do and at his best excels at it given that it's not his natural position but when we are attacking he is slow to get back and can leave Coq doing too much cleaning up work on his own.

[Power n Glory]

The problem wasn't so much in winning the ball deep (as we still had Gilberto for that) but the genius of Vieira was he was the ultimate box to box player he could win the ball deep but also either run with it or distribute it so we could break with pace. The problem when he went and what we still have today is that we tend to dither so much on the counter that the other team is able to get men back by the time we get out of our own third.

Yep. We win the ball back and the won't play it forward quick enough or won't see anyone making purposeful runs.

Just thought I'd post this one up. I think we have a good player on our hands here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCIjAqgii-Q

[Power n Glory]

Coquelin is an excellent DM and works his nuts off chasing back but his ball distribution and his ability to run with the ball to set up an attack is limited and that's why you need someone sitting deep alongside him. Wenger does recognise this and has opted to play Cazorla in the box to box position which he can do and at his best excels at it given that it's not his natural position but when we are attacking he is slow to get back and can leave Coq doing too much cleaning up work on his own.

Snap. But I think Coquelin has a lot more to show with his dribbling and passing. He's shown in a few games recently he can spread the ball and I remember seeing him at the Emirates having a storm of a game. Dribbling, passing and hard tackles. We have more to come from this guy.

[I am invisible]

I don't know if anyone else followed the youth side that much, but Coquelin and Wilshere actually formed an excellent midfield partnership in that side that won the Youth Cup under Steve Bould? Haven't had much of a chance to see those two next to each other in the senior side yet, but I'd be interested to see if they've still got that same understanding? Wilshere is better at defending than people generally give him credit for (or at least he's not shy about putting in a challenge), and Coquelin is a better passer and dribbler than people think. Are there better individuals out there? Probably. But as MarcO says, those little partnerships and understandings can sometimes lift you up another level.

I'd certainly like to see Wilshere used in one of those deeper roles, whether he's paired with Coquelin or not. He's a very similar player to Rosicky, for me, who I've also always thought was far better suited to playing deeper, with the game in front of him. Might stop him getting injured so much too, if he's not constantly running at a wall of massive CBs and getting chopped down every 5 minutes? Never thought I'd say it, but England have the right idea here...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't know if anyone else followed the youth side that much, but Coquelin and Wilshere actually formed an excellent midfield partnership in that side that won the Youth Cup under Steve Bould? Haven't had much of a chance to see those two next to each other in the senior side yet, but I'd be interested to see if they've still got that same understanding? Wilshere is better at defending than people generally give him credit for (or at least he's not shy about putting in a challenge), and Coquelin is a better passer and dribbler than people think. Are there better individuals out there? Probably. But as MarcO says, those little partnerships and understandings can sometimes lift you up another level.

I'd certainly like to see Wilshere used in one of those deeper roles, whether he's paired with Coquelin or not. He's a very similar player to Rosicky, for me, who I've also always thought was far better suited to playing deeper, with the game in front of him. Might stop him getting injured so much too, if he's not constantly running at a wall of massive CBs and getting chopped down every 5 minutes? Never thought I'd say it, but England have the right idea here...

I would agree about the partnership of Coquelin and Wilshere if the latter was able to stay fit, to be honest we have given Wilshere chance after chance to stay fit and really he has to go at the end of the season if he doesn't feature in at least half the games.

[mastermind84]

We didn't need a clone, I just don't think passive pass merchant like Fabregas was ever going to be adequate enough.

I agree with you. It's just harsh to say Wenger had an "oversight" for not discovering a player that no longer exists.


Coquelin is an excellent DM and works his nuts off chasing back but his ball distribution and his ability to run with the ball to set up an attack is limited and that's why you need someone sitting deep alongside him. Wenger does recognise this and has opted to play Cazorla in the box to box position which he can do and at his best excels at it given that it's not his natural position but when we are attacking he is slow to get back and can leave Coq doing too much cleaning up work on his own.
Cazorla hurts the team at that position as well because he doesn't defend.

If we are going to be honest, Wenger needs to find a complete central midfielder to pair with Ramsey. I think that's what you meant Marc_Overmars.

[mastermind84]

Snap. But I think Coquelin has a lot more to show with his dribbling and passing. He's shown in a few games recently he can spread the ball and I remember seeing him at the Emirates having a storm of a game. Dribbling, passing and hard tackles. We have more to come from this guy.
It's not about passing and dribbling as much as if he can spot runs quickly.

The reason Wenger loaned him around the world in the first place was due to him holding the ball too long.

[Power n Glory]

It's not about passing and dribbling as much as if he can spot runs quickly.

The reason Wenger loaned him around the world in the first place was due to him holding the ball too long.

Did Wenger actually say why he was loaned out?

[Penguin]

I think Coquelin's footballing ability is very underrated, especially by gooners. His short passing is good and he has that pass to spread the play to either wing in his locker. He doesn't need to be Xavi cause he's got 3 or 4 playmakers on his team who should be doing that role.

[Niall_Quinn]

I agree with you. It's just harsh to say Wenger had an "oversight" for not discovering a player that no longer exists.


Cazorla hurts the team at that position as well because he doesn't defend.

If we are going to be honest, Wenger needs to find a complete central midfielder to pair with Ramsey. I think that's what you meant Marc_Overmars.

It's not that he needs to fine one - what he needs to do is act when the player is jumping up and down under his nose.

[alexander]

Never thought i would say it, because as a player he was a right little turd, but Gary Neville talks a lot of sense (not just Arsenal related). Robbie Savage, Carra and others could learn a thing or too.
Everything he said was right. This team can not win the title, they are just not good enough to go toe to toe with man city or chelsea over a full season.

[Maestro]

It's not that he needs to fine one - what he needs to do is act when the player is jumping up and down under his nose.

Vidal then get Reus, and we would have been set to go, but hey top quality players are not available and there is no one we could have got to improve our squad ....utter tosh

[Globalgunner]

Two things:
1. Wenger doesnt really want to improve the squad. Having the right players in the right places at the same time, removes his final get out of jail card. Come the end of this season I bet you he will be saying: Well yes we ended 10 points offf the leaders but you must remember, we couldnt get the players we need as the clubs refused to sell them. Also Chelsea, United and City spend a total of 350m and we only spent 13m, so we have done well to finsh 3rd/4th.

2. Wenger is dedicated to this system he has been cultivating since 2005. Beauty above effectiveness. He does this because he can afford to, we still make CL despite his eccentricities. Even if we had got Vidal, Reus et al, we would not abandon this tippy tappy shit. New players will either have to integrate or get sidelined.

To the essence of the argument. Yes we need characters like the invincibles, people who are tough physically and mentally, Players that hate to lose, that bear grudges remember defeats. Players who know what works and what doesn't. Does anyone think the team of 99-2005 would stand for this aimless tippy tappy no shoot policy?.
Wenger has moulded this team, fabricated its psyche to mirror his own. Every defeat is water off a ducks back. No post mortem of what went wrong, just pencil it down to bad luck, bad officiating, bad weather, or just lack of sharpness. He wont buy warriors because they may infect the other players. He wants to be the dominant personality in the team, and so he buys only malleable, laid back types. Good players come become disllusioned and go. Wenger just presses reset and starts all over again.
This season no doubt will end up resembling every other one we've seen for the last 10 years. Sometimes great but mostly average. The fear i have is that a lot of PL teams have now got resources to buy previously unattainable quality. We no longer have the edge in quality over teams that we had before to make up for Wenger`s obvious defects. Apart from the keeper, we have stagnated while every other team has upgraded. It will be close, however we have other teams stepping up to make life hard for the usual suspects, Us, United, City and Chelsea. It could either be a record season for City or a bunfight among last years top 8. I fancy Swansea to really surprise everyone this season, Good manager with a good team

[Letters]

1. Wenger doesnt really want to improve the squad.
:lol:

:doh:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:lol:

:doh:

Is that so far fetched?

Could it not possibly be that he knows if he strengthens and he fails to take the title he is at risk of finding out that he isn't as good a manager as he thinks he is, plus money spending is a gamble and the board will expect results that he isn't 100% confident of delivering.

I think it could only be part of the explanation though

A) You can tell he still is contemptuous of spending money on developed stars as he'd rather nurture talent himself
B) He is stubborn, so would rather prove people wrong about Arteta and Giroud than sign better players
C) He is someone who doesn't like confrontation and is loyal to his players and won't want to rock the boat and upset the players he already has by making their spot in the side up for grabs

Cech would be a counter example to C, but I think he was prepared to do it because Szczesny had disrespected him

Add into the mix a reactive approach to the transfer market, and a scouting system in need of updating you have inaction as a result of a man who has always been indecisive with bringing in squad additions.

[Letters]

Is that so far fetched?.

Yes, it's obviously bollocks.
Ozil, Sanchez, Cech have all improved our squad.

[Niall_Quinn]

There are definite signs of improvement - finally. Wenger is playing Cech in his favoured position. Very encouraging and if he extends this policy to the rest of the squad we could see a big improvement in the results.

[Letters]

This, by the way. THIS! Is why I'll defend Wenger.

There are some things which he shouldn't be defended from. He didn't sign a striker this summer. It seems like he tried, but he failed. If that costs us then he should be criticised. I do think he was right not to sign another 'Welbeck', either get someone who can properly push us on or don't bother. I agree with that. But we needed someone to push us on.

But "he doesn't like to spend money", "he doesn't want to win", "he's happy with top 4 and doesn't want to do better".

Please. Spare me that balls.

[selassie]

Is that so far fetched?

Could it not possibly be that he knows if he strengthens and he fails to take the title he is at risk of finding out that he isn't as good a manager as he thinks he is, plus money spending is a gamble and the board will expect results that he isn't 100% confident of delivering.

I think it could only be part of the explanation though

A) You can tell he still is contemptuous of spending money on developed stars as he'd rather nurture talent himself
B) He is stubborn, so would rather prove people wrong about Arteta and Giroud than sign better players
C) He is someone who doesn't like confrontation and is loyal to his players and won't want to rock the boat and upset the players he already has by making their spot in the side up for grabs

Cech would be a counter example to C, but I think he was prepared to do it because Szczesny had disrespected him

Add into the mix a reactive approach to the transfer market, and a scouting system in need of updating you have inaction as a result of a man who has always been indecisive with bringing in squad additions.

:gp:

[selassie]

This, by the way. THIS! Is why I'll defend Wenger.

There are some things which he shouldn't be defended from. He didn't sign a striker this summer. It seems like he tried, but he failed. If that costs us then he should be criticised. I do think he was right not to sign another 'Welbeck', either get someone who can properly push us on or don't bother. I agree with that. But we needed someone to push us on.

But "he doesn't like to spend money", "he doesn't want to win", "he's happy with top 4 and doesn't want to do better".

Please. Spare me that balls.

Do you think Wenger is doing enough in his job and using all of his resources efficiently to achieve the absolute best for the football TEAM, not club...but the actual team itself?

[Letters]

Do you think Wenger is doing enough in his job and using all of his resources efficiently to achieve the absolute best for the football TEAM, not club...but the actual team itself?

Well, as I said he should have signed a striker this summer. Easier said than done to sign a striker at the level which would push us on, but that's why he gets the big bucks.
So no, I think he could have done more. But is it because he hates spending money or isn't interested in improving the squad or winning? Behave...

[selassie]

Well, as I said he should have signed a striker this summer. Easier said than done to sign a striker at the level which would push us on, but that's why he gets the big bucks.
So no, I think he could have done more. But is it because he hates spending money or isn't interested in improving the squad or winning? Behave...

Maybe not interested in winning and hates spending are too strong an example but do you think he really does enough to justify being a manager interested in absolutely getting the best out of his team because I certainly dont.

I know there are extreme views amongst the fanbase but I am firmly in the "Wenger" doesn't do enough camp. I don't agree that he isn't interested in winning or hates spending but I would say that he is only interested in winning under his own "terms" and is a reluctant spender in the market. Also onto the striker stuff, he's not only had just this summer to sort it, he has had previous windows and has done nothing, he has failed. Why on earth does it take so long to rectify problematic areas of the team/squad? It's not just the striker position, he has form for neglecting areas of the squad and being reluctant to rectify them in the market. He has only just recently bought a decent keeper in Cech, how long have we had to suffer with his crazy faith in sub-par keepers?

Onto the he doesn't like winning, well I think he handicaps himself by his own philosophy/methodology, it handicaps us as a team and he is placing unnecessary self-enforced barriers in the way of the team progressing.

That's my own take on things, it's not that he is rubbish or the worst manager in the world but his flaws which are pretty big IMO are holding back the team.

[Letters]

That position is unusually sensible for this place :o

[Niall_Quinn]

This, by the way. THIS! Is why I'll defend Wenger.

There are some things which he shouldn't be defended from. He didn't sign a striker this summer. It seems like he tried, but he failed. If that costs us then he should be criticised. I do think he was right not to sign another 'Welbeck', either get someone who can properly push us on or don't bother. I agree with that. But we needed someone to push us on.

But "he doesn't like to spend money", "he doesn't want to win", "he's happy with top 4 and doesn't want to do better".

Please. Spare me that balls.

A handful of journos come out for Wenger over the weekend with their 'no to average players' and 'Wenger did the best in the transfer window' guff. By Monday the sheeple are regurgitating. It may be true that Wenger couldn't find anyone - actually it's not true at all but let's pretend. So let's take the wise journo fashion statements and ask a simple question.

Why did we sign the first 'average Welbeck'?

Why did we sign Giroud?

Flamini?

Sanogo?

Park?

The guy with broken back?

And the rest.

So let's not sack him for this window - let's sack him for all the other ones.

[Power n Glory]

Maybe not interested in winning and hates spending are too strong an example but do you think he really does enough to justify being a manager interested in absolutely getting the best out of his team because I certainly dont.

I know there are extreme views amongst the fanbase but I am firmly in the "Wenger" doesn't do enough camp. I don't agree that he isn't interested in winning or hates spending but I would say that he is only interested in winning under his own "terms" and is a reluctant spender in the market. Also onto the striker stuff, he's not only had just this summer to sort it, he has had previous windows and has done nothing, he has failed. Why on earth does it take so long to rectify problematic areas of the team/squad? It's not just the striker position, he has form for neglecting areas of the squad and being reluctant to rectify them in the market. He has only just recently bought a decent keeper in Cech, how long have we had to suffer with his crazy faith in sub-par keepers?

Onto the he doesn't like winning, well I think he handicaps himself by his own philosophy/methodology, it handicaps us as a team and he is placing unnecessary self-enforced barriers in the way of the team progressing.

That's my own take on things, it's not that he is rubbish or the worst manager in the world but his flaws which are pretty big IMO are holding back the team.

:gp:

[Syn]

Wenger's still probably the best around in the transfer market. Every club signs duds, Alex Ferguson signed a shitload more even proportionately. Welbeck and Debuchy are duds but every top club makes many more mistakes. he won't have a 100% success rate, even 50% would beat his competition. The unfortunate part is after that, he doesn't seem to offer a lot or demand higher standards from himself.

[selassie]

That position is unusually sensible for this place :o

:) I still want him sacked though....................:lol:

[selassie]

Wenger's still probably the best around in the transfer market. Every club signs duds, Alex Ferguson signed a shitload more even proportionately. Welbeck and Debuchy are duds but every top club makes many more mistakes. he won't have a 100% success rate, even 50% would beat his competition. The unfortunate part is after that, he doesn't seem to offer a lot or demand higher standards from himself.

I agree that Wenger is one of the best in the market but he certainly doesn't rank high when it comes to rectifying issues within, that's where the likes of Fergie outclass Wenger as a manager, sorry but its just the way I see it. Fergie won back to back titles with a squad full of average players in his latter years, it's only since Moyes/LVG that United have been splashing the cash because in the latter years of Fergie, he/they didn't really invest that well and not that much.

United is a big club to put ourselves against but the bottomline is that this stadium move was touted as a way of increasing our revenue and getting us competing against the world's leading clubs. We need to start behaving like a big club, I don't mean by spending ourselves to bankruptcy but we need to be more proactive and less reactive.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger's still probably the best around in the transfer market. Every club signs duds, Alex Ferguson signed a shitload more even proportionately. Welbeck and Debuchy are duds but every top club makes many more mistakes. he won't have a 100% success rate, even 50% would beat his competition. The unfortunate part is after that, he doesn't seem to offer a lot or demand higher standards from himself.

Debuchy was just unfortunate with injuries. As Selassie says, the main problem with Wenger is not addressing long standing issues we've had. Yes, he should demand more of himself and I don't understand why the pressure has to come from elsewhere for him to correct things. He's a football nut with so much knowledge so what we've seen over the years is just totally baffling.

[Globalgunner]

To mention a few examples
Stuck with Almunia for 5 seasons even when it was patently obvious that he was worse than poo

Stuck, with Djourou/Senderos when literally every game they would cost us points.

Chamakh....waited for a whole year to get him on a free, turned out to be more afraid of the goal, than little bo peep is afraid of a Wolf

Eboue....nuff said

[KSE Comedy Club]

This, by the way. THIS! Is why I'll defend Wenger.

There are some things which he shouldn't be defended from. He didn't sign a striker this summer. It seems like he tried, but he failed. If that costs us then he should be criticised. I do think he was right not to sign another 'Welbeck', either get someone who can properly push us on or don't bother. I agree with that. But we needed someone to push us on.

But "he doesn't like to spend money", "he doesn't want to win", "he's happy with top 4 and doesn't want to do better".

Please. Spare me that balls.
I thought your stance was "he didn't sign a striker, if that costs us then he should be sacked"

Hmm, how quickly you change your tune :coffee:

Also, from what I understand, we could've got Cavani, but the price didn't match 'our valuation'. The. We were offered Ibra on loan for the season - to which we agreed to pay his wages but we couldn't agree the loan fee.

Sorry but a player like Ibra is a game changer and would've pushed us on. Even if the fee was £20m it would have been worth it.

This bullshit about there being no playa available is getting fucking tiresome tbh.

[Niall_Quinn]

Debuchy was just unfortunate with injuries. As Selassie says, the main problem with Wenger is not addressing long standing issues we've had. Yes, he should demand more of himself and I don't understand why the pressure has to come from elsewhere for him to correct things. He's a football nut with so much knowledge so what we've seen over the years is just totally baffling.

I like Wenger as a human being and I agree with mostly everything he says. Not being silly here, his views on football and how it should be played and how the game should be governed with a level playing field in mind are principles I can get behind no trouble at all. He's right in all of this.

He also shows ridiculous loyalty to his players, treats them like family members. It's hard to criticise a boss who gives a fuck about his employees, because so few do.

Unfortunately he's an anachronism pitched into one of the deepest cesspits known to mankind - the world of modern football. Whether we like it or not, that's where we are, that's what we are dealing with. It's a shady world of human rights abusers, Mafioso and assorted criminals and individuals of ill repute. Look at FIFA, look at UEFA, look at our own FA. Look at the pack of hacks that surround the game, the agents, Neymar's mother, Anleka's brother. All these people stink. And they are running things. And ruining them. No wonder Wenger is pissed. Yes he loves the game and he finds money crude and vulgar and in this I agree with him too.

But he wants a job in football management and here's where the problems starts. It's not his place to use Arsenal as a vehicle for his crusade. When all is said and done the fans don't give a shit about anything except winning and they'll see that happen at any cost. We know this because of the ludicrous ticket prices, the obnoxious marketing practices (such as 3 new kits every year), the blind eye that gets turned when and Abramovich or a Usmanov buys up a big chunk of the game. Wenger is a lone voice in the wilderness and nobody really wants to see his vision of the game materialise, or maybe some do but nobody is prepared to do what it takes to make that happen. We're all just rolling on with the foul and corrupted version of the game, it's the next result that's paramount, the most extreme form of short-termism imaginable. And so Wenger is incompatible with the game in its current state. Of course in the ideal world he's dead right not to spend £70mill on Benzema, a journeyman by comparison to the great strikers of the past. But he's also dead wrong because we're about as far as we can get from an ideal world.

We want to compete for the title even if it means involving ourselves in a sport that allows the likes of Abramovich or those horrendous Arab cocksuckers to hold court. We can ignore that but we can't ignore Wenger's admirable but out of touch beliefs. Because it's the next win that's important no matter how it is achieved. Like politics, the people get what they deserve.

Wenger has to go and we need a horrible, superficial, immoral, idealistically retarded fuck to replace him. Then we'll win.

I get frustrated with him because if he were to just compromise a little bit, on just a few things, he could well get the better of the hateful Mourinho types. Then again, I'm asking him to get a little bit pregnant, aren't I? Something I suppose he sees as the one inch that leads to a mile of ruin.

[Power n Glory]

I like Wenger as a human being and I agree with mostly everything he says. Not being silly here, his views on football and how it should be played and how the game should be governed with a level playing field in mind are principles I can get behind no trouble at all. He's right in all of this.

He also shows ridiculous loyalty to his players, treats them like family members. It's hard to criticise a boss who gives a fuck about his employees, because so few do.

Unfortunately he's an anachronism pitched into one of the deepest cesspits known to mankind - the world of modern football. Whether we like it or not, that's where we are, that's what we are dealing with. It's a shady world of human rights abusers, Mafioso and assorted criminals and individuals of ill repute. Look at FIFA, look at UEFA, look at our own FA. Look at the pack of hacks that surround the game, the agents, Neymar's mother, Anleka's brother. All these people stink. And they are running things. And ruining them. No wonder Wenger is pissed. Yes he loves the game and he finds money crude and vulgar and in this I agree with him too.

But he wants a job in football management and here's where the problems starts. It's not his place to use Arsenal as a vehicle for his crusade. When all is said and done the fans don't give a shit about anything except winning and they'll see that happen at any cost. We know this because of the ludicrous ticket prices, the obnoxious marketing practices (such as 3 new kits every year), the blind eye that gets turned when and Abramovich or a Usmanov buys up a big chunk of the game. Wenger is a lone voice in the wilderness and nobody really wants to see his vision of the game materialise, or maybe some do but nobody is prepared to do what it takes to make that happen. We're all just rolling on with the foul and corrupted version of the game, it's the next result that's paramount, the most extreme form of short-termism imaginable. And so Wenger is incompatible with the game in its current state. Of course in the ideal world he's dead right not to spend £70mill on Benzema, a journeyman by comparison to the great strikers of the past. But he's also dead wrong because we're about as far as we can get from an ideal world.

We want to compete for the title even if it means involving ourselves in a sport that allows the likes of Abramovich or those horrendous Arab cocksuckers to hold court. We can ignore that but we can't ignore Wenger's admirable but out of touch beliefs. Because it's the next win that's important no matter how it is achieved. Like politics, the people get what they deserve.

Wenger has to go and we need a horrible, superficial, immoral, idealistically retarded fuck to replace him. Then we'll win.

I get frustrated with him because if he were to just compromise a little bit, on just a few things, he could well get the better of the hateful Mourinho types. Then again, I'm asking him to get a little bit pregnant, aren't I? Something I suppose he sees as the one inch that leads to a mile of ruin.

I don’t even think it’s that. I can understand why Wenger wouldn’t want to pay £70m for a striker like Benzema or Cavani. It’s understandable but I think he can keep his principles and still be successful. The transfer market is a small part of the frustration with Wenger. It’s the last resort for finding a solution and I look forward to it simply because I know we’ll see a change in the team. For me, it’s the same tactics and seeing the same team selection that pisses me off. He’ll never be able to control the transfer market but he should have a better grasp of what he can get out of this team. The strengths and weaknesses. That’s what annoys me the most. Seeing game after game of failure and still blindly walking into pitfalls as if we’ve never walked this way before.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don’t even think it’s that. I can understand why Wenger wouldn’t want to pay £70m for a striker like Benzema or Cavani. It’s understandable but I think he can keep his principles and still be successful. The transfer market is a small part of the frustration with Wenger. It’s the last resort for finding a solution and I look forward to it simply because I know we’ll see a change in the team. For me, it’s the same tactics and seeing the same team selection that pisses me off. He’ll never be able to control the transfer market but he should have a better grasp of what he can get out of this team. The strengths and weaknesses. That’s what annoys me the most. Seeing game after game of failure and still blindly walking into pitfalls as if we’ve never walked this way before.

He thinks his players are up to it and he has a blind spot for how the PL works. He can't seem to accept that half the teams (or more) in the league have no intention of playing football when they step on the pitch. I don't think he gets that. You can see how frustrated he is on the sidelines when the opposition pulls out all the cynical stops to shut down the game.

[Power n Glory]

He thinks his players are up to it and he has a blind spot for how the PL works. He can't seem to accept that half the teams (or more) in the league have no intention of playing football when they step on the pitch. I don't think he gets that. You can see how frustrated he is on the sidelines when the opposition pulls out all the cynical stops to shut down the game.

That was true 7 or 6 years ago maybe but we’ve had games where we’ve been played off the park by Swansea and just tactically out thought like against West Ham. We’re our own worst enemy with this ball to feet, playing in front of the opposition, tippy tap passing for percentages crap.

[Kano]

I like Wenger as a human being and I agree with mostly everything he says. Not being silly here, his views on football and how it should be played and how the game should be governed with a level playing field in mind are principles I can get behind no trouble at all. He's right in all of this.

He also shows ridiculous loyalty to his players, treats them like family members. It's hard to criticise a boss who gives a fuck about his employees, because so few do.

Unfortunately he's an anachronism pitched into one of the deepest cesspits known to mankind - the world of modern football. Whether we like it or not, that's where we are, that's what we are dealing with. It's a shady world of human rights abusers, Mafioso and assorted criminals and individuals of ill repute. Look at FIFA, look at UEFA, look at our own FA. Look at the pack of hacks that surround the game, the agents, Neymar's mother, Anleka's brother. All these people stink. And they are running things. And ruining them. No wonder Wenger is pissed. Yes he loves the game and he finds money crude and vulgar and in this I agree with him too.

But he wants a job in football management and here's where the problems starts. It's not his place to use Arsenal as a vehicle for his crusade. When all is said and done the fans don't give a shit about anything except winning and they'll see that happen at any cost. We know this because of the ludicrous ticket prices, the obnoxious marketing practices (such as 3 new kits every year), the blind eye that gets turned when and Abramovich or a Usmanov buys up a big chunk of the game. Wenger is a lone voice in the wilderness and nobody really wants to see his vision of the game materialise, or maybe some do but nobody is prepared to do what it takes to make that happen. We're all just rolling on with the foul and corrupted version of the game, it's the next result that's paramount, the most extreme form of short-termism imaginable. And so Wenger is incompatible with the game in its current state. Of course in the ideal world he's dead right not to spend £70mill on Benzema, a journeyman by comparison to the great strikers of the past. But he's also dead wrong because we're about as far as we can get from an ideal world.

We want to compete for the title even if it means involving ourselves in a sport that allows the likes of Abramovich or those horrendous Arab cocksuckers to hold court. We can ignore that but we can't ignore Wenger's admirable but out of touch beliefs. Because it's the next win that's important no matter how it is achieved. Like politics, the people get what they deserve.

Wenger has to go and we need a horrible, superficial, immoral, idealistically retarded fuck to replace him. Then we'll win.

I get frustrated with him because if he were to just compromise a little bit, on just a few things, he could well get the better of the hateful Mourinho types. Then again, I'm asking him to get a little bit pregnant, aren't I? Something I suppose he sees as the one inch that leads to a mile of ruin.

Absolutely right. His principles are spot on and you'd have to be a sick fuck not to agree with how he believes the game should be run. But as you say, that world doesn't exist and never can as long as we continue down this road.

So then it comes down to the basics of adapting to the current market or dying out. And this is the part where peoples frustrations boil over and call him deluded because he believes he can be successful without that adaptation. He no longer has that extra insight to spot players before other clubs because every time an 'unknown' player does something worthwhile its spreads like wildfire. All those extra percentages he used to manipulate to gain success on a lesser spend are no longer advantages. There are no real game changers to be purchased on a minimum, especially if you are Premiership club saddled down with disproportionate amounts of revenue and TV money, waiting to be ripped off by those selling their players. You pay for the quality you get - mostly.

£20m, £40m, £70m - I mean what is the realistic, sensible figure to pay for a footballer player? Anything in the millions is fucking ridiculous, so why be hesitant when it starts reaching nine figures? Why does it become even more unrealistic at that point when we have long since passed the line of absurdity? People might say that is fine for a club like City but not ourselves given we have tighter finances or only £200m in the bank etc etc. But what the hell do we really know about how these deals are structured, what is set aside for spending on transfers, wages, bonuses and all the other details that make these deals far more financially complex than just the top line figures we all play fantasy football with via bullshit media stories? While we are living in this disgustingly rich football age, what difference does it make to the fans online who never attend games how much we spend? If anything the argument from paying fans should be they want more of their money to be spent improving the team, not playing Fantasy Accountancy.

Personally I could have swallowed another Giroud style signing rather than no one. He is a good striker, not great but good. 15-20 goals a season. People use the lowest common denominator - aka Wellbeck - to justify Wenger's lack of activity. Of course we don't want another one of those because he is shit. We don't have two strikers like Giroud, only one. That is Giroud. Doubling up on that would have improved us. Enough to win the title? Of course not but where and when you can improve, you try to do so. You don't sit still and do nothing. Same principle applies for central midfield too. You sit around waiting and waiting for your key targets to arrive then what do you do when they are poached by someone else? You don't stick in someone like Walcott to double up on the ineffectiveness of being a striker, just like Wellbeck. Now we have one striker for the entire season. But of course, we couldn't possibly have improved on the guaranteed top, top quality we have in our current strike force, because only Messi's or Wellbeck's are available on the market.

[mastermind84]

Did Wenger actually say why he was loaned out?

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/francis-coquelin-the-wouldbe-zinedine-zidane-now-making-an-impression-as-arsenals-claude-makelele-10272207.html

Wenger’s explanation for the transformation is: “He lost his way a bit and wanted to be more of a playmaker, more box-to-box and a more creative player, then he came back to what his real identity is.


I think Coquelin's footballing ability is very underrated, especially by gooners. His short passing is good and he has that pass to spread the play to either wing in his locker. He doesn't need to be Xavi cause he's got 3 or 4 playmakers on his team who should be doing that role.
every footballer in the premiership can play cross field balls and make short passes.

IN Coquelin's position, his true value will be spotting a move quickly getting the ball to those places. Coquelin has never shown that ability.


It's not that he needs to fine one - what he needs to do is act when the player is jumping up and down under his nose.
which player is that?


Vidal then get Reus, and we would have been set to go, but hey top quality players are not available and there is no one we could have got to improve our squad ....utter tosh
Vidal is allegedly an alcoholic.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/francis-coquelin-the-wouldbe-zinedine-zidane-now-making-an-impression-as-arsenals-claude-makelele-10272207.html



every footballer in the premiership can play cross field balls and make short passes.

IN Coquelin's position, his true value will be spotting a move quickly getting the ball to those places. Coquelin has never shown that ability.




So Wenger never actually said Coquelin was loaned out because he was holding on to the ball for too long.

[Penguin]

every footballer in the premiership can play cross field balls and make short passes.

IN Coquelin's position, his true value will be spotting a move quickly getting the ball to those places. Coquelin has never shown that ability.

This is the premier league. Half of them only know one type of pass - a hoof up to a target man :lol:

That's a bit of an over simplification. Every player can play short passes but that doesn't mean they're at the same level. I'm sure Shawcross can play 5 yard sideways passes under no pressure but that doesn't make him as good as Cazorla at it. Coquelin's passing is actually pretty good, and you'd probably see it more if he was at a midtable team where more of the play would go through him.

https://youtu.be/oVGYgESUFMM

He usually moves the ball on quickly to one of our playmakers, which is what a DM should be doing. It's up to the playmakers to get a move started off.

[Power n Glory]

This is the premier league. Half of them only know one type of pass - a hoof up to a target man :lol:

That's a bit of an over simplification. Every player can play short passes but that doesn't mean they're at the same level. I'm sure Shawcross can play 5 yard sideways passes under no pressure but that doesn't make him as good as Cazorla at it. Coquelin's passing is actually pretty good, and you'd probably see it more if he was at a midtable team where more of the play would go through him.

https://youtu.be/oVGYgESUFMM

He usually moves the ball on quickly to one of our playmakers, which is what a DM should be doing. It's up to the playmakers to get a move started off.

:gp: Still a few folks writing off Coquelin. It's a strange one. Before his regular place in the first team I remember a few folks saying he was crap without being able to recall a game he's played.

[mastermind84]

So Wenger never actually said Coquelin was loaned out because he was holding on to the ball for too long.
He pretty much said that in that quote but if you like to keep your head in the sand, then go for it.

This is the premier league. Half of them only know one type of pass - a hoof up to a target man :lol:

That's a bit of an over simplification. Every player can play short passes but that doesn't mean they're at the same level. I'm sure Shawcross can play 5 yard sideways passes under no pressure but that doesn't make him as good as Cazorla at it. Coquelin's passing is actually pretty good, and you'd probably see it more if he was at a midtable team where more of the play would go through him.

https://youtu.be/oVGYgESUFMM

He usually moves the ball on quickly to one of our playmakers, which is what a DM should be doing. It's up to the playmakers to get a move started off.
What makes Cazorla different from Coquelin and Shawcross is that he can make that pass quickly while seeing an attacking move develop.

[Power n Glory]

He pretty much said that in that quote but if you like to keep your head in the sand, then go for it.

What makes Cazorla different from Coquelin and Shawcross is that he can make that pass quickly while seeing an attacking move develop.

Pretty much doesn’t make it so :lol: That’s your interpretation. Why would it take a loan period out for him to learn that? That makes no sense. I remember he was unhappy about not being played and he was considering his options so he was loaned out like the rest of the young players that want game time. You conveniently leave that part out of the story.

Coquelin saw himself as a bit more than just a DM and more playmaker but he was never going to get game time ahead of the current players we have. If the player and Wenger don’t see eye to eye on positioning, he’ll keep them on the bench until a spot opens up for them. You can go back to Flamini when Wenger was using him as LB but Flam wanted to play as DM. Wenger told him he’d have to earn his spot and Flamini did just that. With Song it was similar. Wenger at first wanted him to play CB but Song wanted to play DM. Wenger said something about Song not having the endurance and stamina to play there so Song had to prove him wrong and earn his spot there. Theo looks like he’s in a similar situation now with his protests to play as a striker. With Coquelin looking unhappy on the bench, Wenger shipped him out. That’s the reason he went.

Also, did you watch the Coquelin video? Just a few seconds and you’ll see how wrong you are. Were you one of the few that said he wasn’t good enough to play for us at the start of last season?

[Heisenberg]

Coquelin does have pretty good passing. He made an excellent cross field ball to Walcott in the cup final in the lead up to the opening goal.

Didn't he also have a run at right back though? I seem to recall him playing there a few times.

[Power n Glory]

Coquelin does have pretty good passing. He made an excellent cross field ball to Walcott in the cup final in the lead up to the opening goal.

Didn't he also have a run at right back though? I seem to recall him playing there a few times.

Yeah, he did also play at RB. Again, I was surprised we loaned him out. But good to see him getting games now.