Arsenal 2-0 Stoke - Match Reaction

[Master Splinter]

Should have been at least 9-0.

Coquelin superb again. Bellerin and Monreal excellent as usual. Gabriel and Koscielny classy. Cazorla back to his best. Everyone else played decently, with the caveat that their final ball or finishing was poor.

Officials were terrible.

Wenger earns £8 million though so I can't enjoy this.

[A Gunner]

We won, that's what important.

Let's beat Chelsea next week!!!

[Maestro]

Very happy with this result, especially with Mourinho sucking more cock

Hope Wenget and the team can see the opportunity here. Glad to see Gabriel get a run of games and hope he can cement his position in the team. Did not watch the game so cannot comment on the performance.

Hope LDG is enjoying the beers down Laaaaaaaaaandan town :cheers::beer::beer: always nice after a win!

[Maestro]

We won, that's what important.

Let's beat Chelsea next week!!!

Would be great to stick the boot in Mourinho's arse, especially right now ......we beat them and we're all of a sudden in contention and they are in real trouble in the league

Let's see if we have the minerals to finally beat them again in the league, it's been a while

[Marc Overmars]

Need to be more clinical but otherwise, clean sheet, 3 points, job done.

[GP]

We really are creating enough chances to be spanking teams on the regular.

Theo is not a striker.

[Penguin]

Great performance but awful finishing.

Cazorla was easily MOTM, brilliant performance. Sanchez was good and was unlucky not to score again.

Theo should have scored at least 3, but he has always been a confidence player. Now that he's got one I reckon he'll start knocking them in. Giroud needed his goal too.

[Power n Glory]

It should have been a comfortable victory because we created loads. Theo needs to be more clinical and we need more coming from the rest of the team. Coquelin was an absolute beast. Kos and Gabriel looked good as well.

It was a good counter attacking goal. The tackle from Coquelin was excellent. Perfect ball to Theo from Ozil. Theo's touch was great and it was a classy finish. 2nd goals was really simple. Great delivery and easy for Giroud who really need that after the week he's had. He out did Theo with that missed chance earlier and he'd have been finished if his game had ended like that.

Wenger has some decisions to make against Chelsea. Does he play Theo and keep the momentum or try Giroud? Personally, I'd stick with Theo. Once gets a couple of goals he starts to fly.

[Power n Glory]

Great performance but awful finishing.

Cazorla was easily MOTM, brilliant performance. Sanchez was good and was unlucky not to score again.

Theo should have scored at least 3, but he has always been a confidence player. Now that he's got one I reckon he'll start knocking them in. Giroud needed his goal too.

Coquelin MOTM all day.

[LDG]

Good display. Should have been 20

[Alpha]

They created many chances and scored two goals . They also kept a clean sheet . That 's job done . In realistic football you can't expect to put away all your chances . It would had been worrying if there were no chances , no goal and no clean sheet . So keep it up boys .

[alexander]

Always easy to say "should have been 5-6-7-12 nil" but how often does a team score more than 3-4 in a premier league game? even when they are dominating the opposition? Not very often. Lots of great teams dominate and only win 2-0.

Pleased for Oli and Feo, and all the team, sounds like they played well, clean sheet, and three points. Sitting 3rd, so cant complain.

Now to beat Chelsea, that would be soooooo good.

[AFC Leveller]

easily our best performance of the season. Started at a high tempo, created tons and hit the woodwork a few times as well. Coq, Cazorla, Bellerin, Nacho, the CBs, stood out and gave Stoke no room.

Next week is the big one, a draw ould probably be a decent result, we cannot lose and give those cunts a lifeline, we have to kick em while they are down.

[AFC Leveller]

Mesut Ozil has created 76 goalscoring chances in the Premier League in 2015, more than any other player.

But according to Danny Mills, Pat Nevin and Jermaine Penis, Silva and Cesc are the greatest and Ozil is a lazy luxury.

[Maestro]

Mesut Ozil has created 76 goalscoring chances in the Premier League in 2015, more than any other player.

But according to Danny Mills, Pat Nevin and Jermaine Penis, Silva and Cesc are the greatest and Ozil is a lazy luxury.

Ozil is being badly let down by our front men, a top striker would kill to play with someone like him loading the ammo

[AFC Leveller]

Ozil is being badly let down by our front men, a top striker would kill to play with someone like him loading the ammo

When he was at Real Madrid, Ronaldo and benzema (and Higuain) would get chance after chance with him supplying them. If we had a proper number 9, and Alexis and Ox/Theo either side, Ozil would be made to look like the world clas playmaker he is.

[alexander]

Ozil is being badly let down by our front men, a top striker would kill to play with someone like him loading the ammo

Ian Wright said on the 5live phone in last week he would love to play with this midfield/ozil. He and hartson spoke about when they played together. it wasnt about Arsenal, it was about Hartson joining. They spoke of how hard keown was in training all the time. making every training session like a real match, and how much it meant to him. When they were speaking, I couldnt think of one player at arsenal with that type of passion. Alexis kind of has it, but not in that way.

[Injury Time]

Stoke were shit. We still need a striker. I like Kos and Gabriel together. Ramsay :ilt:, Özil booking :blink: & Diouf no booking <_< just fuck off ref you prick. Take the 3 points and run. No doubt we'll give Chavs the boost they need to regain their form :rolleyes:.

[Kano]

Alexis needs a rest but he won't get one.

[Niall_Quinn]

We've got most of the tools to compete at the top of this league but everyone except Wenger can easily spot the vital but missing component. Some are saying he tried to do his job in the summer but nothing was available. The reality is he's had years to do his job. He hasn't done it. A win is always welcome but we won't get enough of them this season.

[Kano]

Next week is a big litmus test. We have a dismal record against the top 8 over the past couple of seasons and we are facing a Chelsea team all over the place. Can Wenger galvanise his players to take advantage of that? Even in their current state, I put the Chavs down as favourites next week.

[BOBN]

Hopefully thats the last we've seen of Mertesaker.

[Grebbo]

Walcott should have got at least 3 goals. His goal reminded me so much of Henry.

All he needs is to develop some confidence and arrogance and I can't see why he can't be the best striker in the league.

I knew Wenger would sub him. I think it's time to give him 4 or 5 games as a striker for 90 mins. He's most devastating in the last 20 mins of games so I don't know why Wenger subbed him. His replacement scored though so fair enough.

[Gooner23]

Just watched the highlights, glad we created so many chances. The finishing however :doh:

Hopefully Theo and Giroud can take some confidence from getting a goal each.

Ozil, Cazorla, Coq all looked excellent. Would love to see Wenger start Ox, Theo and Sanchez as the front 3 against Chelsea.

[Gooner23]

Watching motd, Chelsea :pal: Mourinho :pal:

Is Azzard still greatest player of all time, better than Messi?

[Letters]

Next week is a big litmus test. We have a dismal record against the top 8 over the past couple of seasons and we are facing a Chelsea team all over the place. Can Wenger galvanise his players to take advantage of that? Even in their current state, I put the Chavs down as favourites next week.

Agree with that. Overall the start hasn't been the disaster some on here have made out. We're now 3rd and only below Utd by a goal difference of 1. A pox on City and their late goal but they'll drop points soon. Some of the wins have been scrappy but a win's a win and we all knew we were capable of better. Yesterday was much better, again the finishing was poor at times but it was job done. Play like that next week and we have a chance but that game worries me. If we win next week Chelsea are almost out of the race already. That seems so unlikely to me and they really won't want to lose to us so I'm not sure we'll do better than a draw. Come on Arsenal :pray:

[Heisenberg]

Their keeper had a good game but we should have scored way more than we did.

[Marc Overmars]

Next week is a big litmus test. We have a dismal record against the top 8 over the past couple of seasons and we are facing a Chelsea team all over the place. Can Wenger galvanise his players to take advantage of that? Even in their current state, I put the Chavs down as favourites next week.

If they had to a choose an opponent to get their season back on track, it would be us.

[AFC Leveller]

If they had to a choose an opponent to get their season back on track, it would be us.

You'd think they'd choose a Norwich or a Watford but sadly, their record and indian sign over us means they would probably be up for it more than us and i can se them getting back on track, as usual.

I dont want to dampen the mood after a great win yesterday but Wenger has failed to win, esp in the league, the vital games, the ones that make a huge difference and thats what worries me 9and the rest of us) next week.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I was really pleased with how we stormed out of the block. The first 10 minutes we were pulverising Stoke and they never recovered from that. This game was all about damage limitation for them and they were very fortunate to have got out having only lost by two.

Theo did miss chances as has been mentioned, but the finish he did convert waa beautiful to watch.

[Penguin]

Walcott should have got at least 3 goals. His goal reminded me so much of Henry.

All he needs is to develop some confidence and arrogance and I can't see why he can't be the best striker in the league.

Behave... :lol:

The good thing is that he is getting chances and his movement is a big part of that. That first goal wouldn't be possible with Giroud up front. His finishing was awful though, he needs to be a lot more ruthless and clinical. Next Saturday he might not get as many chances to put one in. I think he was putting pressure on himself to prove he can play up front, but now that he's got a goal he needs to kick on.

[BOBN]

That Gabriel elbow was beautiful. Arnautovic must have thought he was elbowing Fabregas or something. Got gooned on.

[Niall_Quinn]

If they had to a choose an opponent to get their season back on track, it would be us.

Absolutely. Can Wenger swallow that arrogance and put out a proper team designed to do a specific job against a defence that's in bits right now? Or does he know better as usual?

[Marc Overmars]

Behave... :lol:

The good thing is that he is getting chances and his movement is a big part of that. That first goal wouldn't be possible with Giroud up front. His finishing was awful though, he needs to be a lot more ruthless and clinical. Next Saturday he might not get as many chances to put one in. I think he was putting pressure on himself to prove he can play up front, but now that he's got a goal he needs to kick on.

He pretty much always gets chances for himself, that's a testament to his movement and pace, but he needs 4-5 chances to score 1 and until he becomes more clinical and composed he won't convince many. It's frustrating because that take and finish yesterday was great but it came after we were banging our heads at wall because of his earlier missed chance, and that sums up the split opinion of him.

On a related note, the ball from Ozil was superb, Theo is an outlet he rarely has to aim for because we never have anyone playing off the shoulder of a defender.

[AFC Leveller]

Absolutely. Can Wenger swallow that arrogance and put out a proper team designed to do a specific job against a defence that's in bits right now? Or does he know better as usual?

Chelsea have a non attacking LB so logic says we play Oxlade and give them something to think about. Ivanovic has been dire all season, we must go wide and test him. their CBs have been making mistakes, we have to make sure we attack them with pace and stretch them.

If Wenger plays the slow tippy tappy shite he usualy does in a big game then we we wont win, simple.

[Niall_Quinn]

He pretty much always gets chances for himself, that's a testament to his movement and pace, but he needs 4-5 chances to score 1 and until he becomes more clinical and composed he won't convince many. It's frustrating because that take and finish yesterday was great but it came after we were banging our heads at wall because of his earlier missed chance, and that sums up the split opinion of him.

On a related note, the ball from Ozil was superb, Theo is an outlet he rarely has to aim for because we never have anyone playing off the shoulder of a defender.

Wrighty made a few good observations on MOTD last night. He showed how Walcott's movement in the centre is almost non-existent and how he only really sparks when he's coming from the wing and cutting in. Walcott is so obviously more effective out there, wonder why he's so determined to play centrally when he's not good at it? Theo wants a run of games so he can establish himself centrally - now many goals will it cost us to give him that run? He has to play wide and Bif has to play centrally. The real problem is Wenger's refusal to choose 2 from Ozil, Cazorla and Ramsey. He's determined to play all 3 all the time no matter the opponent.

[Grebbo]

If they had to a choose an opponent to get their season back on track, it would be us.

Yup it's pretty much nailed on that we'll help Chelsea turn their season around.

[Marc Overmars]

He's determined to play all 3 all the time no matter the opponent.


Agreed. The problem is Ramsey had the season of his life 2 years ago, not just for the goals but his tackling stats were through the roof. He was pretty much the complete midfielder but unfortunately he hasn't come anywhere close to replicating that form. WUMger has always had a huge amount of trust in him, even before he really arrived in 13/14.

I would be interested to see how we'd function without Ramsey in the team, and in his place one of Theo or Oxlade out wide.

[Power n Glory]

Wrighty made a few good observations on MOTD last night. He showed how Walcott's movement in the centre is almost non-existent and how he only really sparks when he's coming from the wing and cutting in. Walcott is so obviously more effective out there, wonder why he's so determined to play centrally when he's not good at it? Theo wants a run of games so he can establish himself centrally - now many goals will it cost us to give him that run? He has to play wide and Bif has to play centrally. The real problem is Wenger's refusal to choose 2 from Ozil, Cazorla and Ramsey. He's determined to play all 3 all the time no matter the opponent.

Wright said no such thing about movement from wide positions being better. :lol: What were you watching? He showed an example of bad movement where he didn't run to the back post for Bellerin's cross and said he has to learn that. Next he said he made a fantastic run but blamed Ozil for passing to Ramsey. Showed another good run from the centre where he was in on goal but should have shot with his right foot.

Wright was critical and fair. Said he believes Walcott has the tools to play there but needs a run of games to get clinical. Praised his goal for the touch and finish.

We can try Bif up front but he doesn't get the chances on goal. It's rare to see Bif get chances where he can score a hat trick. Very rare and he'd have never scored that first goal.

[GP]

Agreed. The problem is Ramsey had the season of his life 2 years ago, not just for the goals but his tackling stats were through the roof. He was pretty much the complete midfielder but unfortunately he hasn't come anywhere close to replicating that form. WUMger has always had a huge amount of trust in him, even before he really arrived in 13/14.

I would be interested to see how we'd function without Ramsey in the team, and in his place one of Theo or Oxlade out wide.

Ideally you play Theo on the right and Giroud up top. Wenger doesn't seem to trust Theo on the right any more, though.

[I am invisible]

If they had to a choose an opponent to get their season back on track, it would be us.
Sure. But, by the same token, I don't think we could have picked a better time to play them...

[Niall_Quinn]

Wright said no such thing about movement from wide positions being better. :lol: What were you watching? He showed an example of bad movement where he didn't run to the back post for Bellerin's cross and said he has to learn that. Next he said he made a fantastic run but blamed Ozil for passing to Ramsey. Showed another good run from the centre where he was in on goal but should have shot with his right foot.

Wright was critical and fair. Said he believes Walcott has the tools to play there but needs a run of games to get clinical. Praised his goal for the touch and finish.

We can try Bif up front but he doesn't get the chances on goal. It's rare to see Bif get chances where he can score a hat trick. Very rare and he'd have never scored that first goal.

Fair enough, I may be mixing in some CBS coverage I watched earlier. Was pissed as a pissed newt. That said, I'm guessing everyone can see pretty clearly how Walcott can be used to better effect. Except yer man, who knows better.

[WMUG]

Also Walcott himself, who knows better.

[Niall_Quinn]

Also Walcott himself, who knows better.

Yeah, it's weird how he believes he can play the role.

[Kano]

Agreed. The problem is Ramsey had the season of his life 2 years ago, not just for the goals but his tackling stats were through the roof. He was pretty much the complete midfielder but unfortunately he hasn't come anywhere close to replicating that form. WUMger has always had a huge amount of trust in him, even before he really arrived in 13/14.

I would be interested to see how we'd function without Ramsey in the team, and in his place one of Theo or Oxlade out wide.

The problem is he doesn't know what to do with Ramsey at all. Play him centrally, out on the right, or up behind the strikers. His game needs reigning in a little to make the best of his talents but like everyone else, there is no control over where or what he does. I can imagine him flourishing in a more structured set up like Citeh, because Aaron has everything to become one of the best in the world as a CM. He is becoming a bit of a scapegoat because of that when really the bigger problem is lack of guidance from the manager and team mates. He has no one to learn off at all because he still hasn't settled into his right position.

[Power n Glory]

Fair enough, I may be mixing in some CBS coverage I watched earlier. Was pissed as a pissed newt. That said, I'm guessing everyone can see pretty clearly how Walcott can be used to better effect. Except yer man, who knows better.

Not if you're drunk. :lol:

What's weird is that you've never rated Walcott on the wing. Or Giroud up front for that matter. We may see the combo in a game or two but I'm not convinced. Giroud is like a statue when playing up front and doesn't have the pace to make up the ground. If Wenger has the stats to prove he's better at scoring with his first touch, then it's no good him playing with his back to goal.

As for Theo on the wing, he's not a dribbler like Sanchez and can't penetrate a defence like that so we're depending on someone picking up his runs. That's why he's quiet on the wings against deep defending teams. As a striker yesterday, we held the ball in our opponents area and still managed to dominate possession in their half so any talk of us not being able to do that with Walcott goes out the window. It's easy to point to this game as why he can't play there but he scored at the end of the day and on another day could score a hat trick, like he's done in the past. Do we swap that for a striker that can go games without scoring or ever looking like scoring? We'll find out soon enough. I think he needs time to develop there and I really question Wenger's wisdom in playing him as a right winger for all these years if he's said his future is as a striker.

[AFC Leveller]

Theo wide right and Bif through the middle is probably our best strike force because they both compliment eacthother well.However, Wenger doesnt play Theo on the right anymore, maybe because he doesnt think Theo's defensive work is good enough, but it was a decent partnership in Giroud's first season.

[Power n Glory]

The problem is he doesn't know what to do with Ramsey at all. Play him centrally, out on the right, or up behind the strikers. His game needs reigning in a little to make the best of his talents but like everyone else, there is no control over where or what he does. I can imagine him flourishing in a more structured set up like Citeh, because Aaron has everything to become on the best in the world as a CM. He is becoming a bit of a scapegoat because of that when really the bigger problem is lack of guidance from the manager and team mates. He has no one to learn off at all because he still hasn't settled into his right position.

Wenger uses that right wing as some sort of throw away experimental position. He always has. Ljunberg was an attacking midifleder. Played more like a number 10 for Sweden but we play him on that right wing. Wiltord was a striker, turns him into a right winger. Eboue got games there. Walcott gets played there. Ox gets played there. I don't understand what Ramsey will learn from playing there. If he's a central midfielder, what experience is that adding to his game?

If Ox will play as a central midfielder in the future, what's the point of playing him on the wing? What's it adding? It's the same for Walcott. He was supposed to be developed into a striker and there is this huge question mark over Walcott's ability to play there so I don't know why Wenger does it other than just to fudge his best players on to the pitch all at once.

[Niall_Quinn]

Not if you're drunk. :lol:

What's weird is that you've never rated Walcott on the wing. Or Giroud up front for that matter. We may see the combo in a game or two but I'm not convinced. Giroud is like a statue when playing up front and doesn't have the pace to make up the ground. If Wenger has the stats to prove he's better at scoring with his first touch, then it's no good him playing with his back to goal.

As for Theo on the wing, he's not a dribbler like Sanchez and can't penetrate a defence like that so we're depending on someone picking up his runs. That's why he's quiet on the wings against deep defending teams. As a striker yesterday, we held the ball in our opponents area and still managed to dominate possession in their half so any talk of us not being able to do that with Walcott goes out the window. It's easy to point to this game as why he can't play there but he scored at the end of the day and on another day could score a hat trick, like he's done in the past. Do we swap that for a striker that can go games without scoring or ever looking like scoring? We'll find out soon enough. I think he needs time to develop there and I really question Wenger's wisdom in playing him as a right winger for all these years if he's said his future is as a striker.

I don't really rate Walcott (anywhere on the pitch) or Bif. But that's what Wenger has left us with so these are the players we have to go with. Yesterday wasn't really about Walcott's movement, or lack of it, it was about a ball played by Ozil. Walcott has pace and he has a 1 in 5 chance of a finish in him. So how do you use a player like that? Ozil showed us. It would be tempting to imagine Wenger fuming inside at the vulgar way we exploited the Stoke defence while playing to the strengths of our own personnel. A great passer, a pacey 1 in 5 finisher, a big striker who can take the hits, isn't so great at finding the net but isn't bad at holding the ball up and bringing other players into the game. It's not hard to figure how you can put the three things together and come up with something at least workable, even if not so highly tuned. Yes, tippy tappy has to die in the process but thank God for that.

[Power n Glory]

I don't really rate Walcott (anywhere on the pitch) or Bif. But that's what Wenger has left us with so these are the players we have to go with. Yesterday wasn't really about Walcott's movement, or lack of it, it was about a ball played by Ozil. Walcott has pace and he has a 1 in 5 chance of a finish in him. So how do you use a player like that? Ozil showed us. It would be tempting to imagine Wenger fuming inside at the vulgar way we exploited the Stoke defence while playing to the strengths of our own personnel. A great passer, a pacey 1 in 5 finisher, a big striker who can take the hits, isn't so great at finding the net but isn't bad at holding the ball up and bringing other players into the game. It's not hard to figure how you can put the three things together and come up with something at least workable, even if not so highly tuned. Yes, tippy tappy has to die in the process but thank God for that.

Underestimate that first touch and finish if you want to. The touch was sublime and set himself up perfectly to take the defender out of the equation and line up a perfect shot. If that had been a Song passing the ball to RVP, people would be creaming themselves over the finish and downplaying the ball from Song. I've seen this before. I'm not taking anything away from any of the players. A beauty of a pass from Ozil but the first touch was important as well.

This whole concept of a striker holding the ball up and bringing others into play is what facilitates tippy tappy play in the first place. It's dragging players like Santi further forward, playing a higher line with the defence and leaves us vulnerable to a counter attack. What you describe is exactly why we have games where we require 500 passes to get into the opponents box. It's what we've been doing for years and we haven't been successful at it with Giroud.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Wrighty made a few good observations on MOTD last night. He showed how Walcott's movement in the centre is almost non-existent and how he only really sparks when he's coming from the wing and cutting in. Walcott is so obviously more effective out there, wonder why he's so determined to play centrally when he's not good at it? Theo wants a run of games so he can establish himself centrally - now many goals will it cost us to give him that run? He has to play wide and Bif has to play centrally. The real problem is Wenger's refusal to choose 2 from Ozil, Cazorla and Ramsey. He's determined to play all 3 all the time no matter the opponent.
If you ask me where I do I want to play, I'd say centre mid. If you ask me where my best position is, I'd say in goal/CB. The preference to a position never really leaves a professional, they just get on with it in any case. If Theo is playing CF its because Wenger is playing him there but he doesn't have to.

Theo hasn't made a career out of missing easy chances and it is hard to iron out the wastefulness if you're in and out of the team. Adebayor made a name for himself missing easy chances before he scored 25 for us.


Wright said no such thing about movement from wide positions being better. :lol: What were you watching? He showed an example of bad movement where he didn't run to the back post for Bellerin's cross and said he has to learn that. Next he said he made a fantastic run but blamed Ozil for passing to Ramsey. Showed another good run from the centre where he was in on goal but should have shot with his right foot.

Wright was critical and fair. Said he believes Walcott has the tools to play there but needs a run of games to get clinical. Praised his goal for the touch and finish.

We can try Bif up front but he doesn't get the chances on goal. It's rare to see Bif get chances where he can score a hat trick. Very rare and he'd have never scored that first goal.

Yes that's how I remembered what he said and noted that particular point too. Frankly, I thought his movement was superb, especially his timing of coming back on side shortly before making a run into the space.

[Power n Glory]

If you ask me where I do I want to play, I'd say centre mid. If you ask me where my best position is, I'd say in goal/CB. The preference to a position never really leaves a professional, they just get on with it in any case. If Theo is playing CF its because Wenger is playing him there but he doesn't have to.

Theo hasn't made a career out of missing easy chances and it is hard to iron out the wastefulness if you're in and out of the team. Adebayor made a name for himself missing easy chances before he scored 25 for us.



Yes that's how I remembered what he said and noted that particular point too. Frankly, I thought his movement was superb, especially his timing of coming back on side shortly before making a run into the space.

I like what Wright had to say and if Theo wants any tips on how to sharpen his game, he should put in a call to Ian and study some of his tapes. But I don't think this is a major problem for Theo. Once he warms up and gets confident the goals just start to flow. I'd worry more if he wasn't getting any chances at all.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Underestimate that first touch and finish if you want to. The touch was sublime and set himself up perfectly to take the defender out of the equation and line up a perfect shot. If that had been a Song passing the ball to RVP, people would be creaming themselves over the finish and downplaying the ball from Song. I've seen this before. I'm not taking anything away from any of the players. A beauty of a pass from Ozil but the first touch was important as well.

This whole concept of a striker holding the ball up and bringing others into play is what facilitates tippy tappy play in the first place. It's dragging players like Santi further forward, playing a higher line with the defence and leaves us vulnerable to a counter attack. What you describe is exactly why we have games where we require 500 passes to get into the opponents box. It's what we've been doing for years and we haven't been successful at it with Giroud.

I agree whole heartedly!

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I tend to agree with Wenger on his theory on missing the type of chances we have been recently. It is less to do with your general finishing ability than it is your ability to just be calm in the situation. As we all recognised, Theo scored the most difficult chance of the game with some orc monster chasing him and breathing down his neck. That calmness in front of goal will simply improve with games, familiarity of recently being in simillar situations and having the trust of the manager.

Whilst we have the options we have I don't think the argument for Giroud over Theo at CF....is particularly overwhelming. The only difference is, we've seen Giroud get a run of games there, but we haven't seen Theo get a run despite being here far longer. If the club decides to stop sitting on the cash and sign a world class CF, then by all means, plays him ahead of Theo and see how HE does...

[Niall_Quinn]

Underestimate that first touch and finish if you want to. The touch was sublime and set himself up perfectly to take the defender out of the equation and line up a perfect shot. If that had been a Song passing the ball to RVP, people would be creaming themselves over the finish and downplaying the ball from Song. I've seen this before. I'm not taking anything away from any of the players. A beauty of a pass from Ozil but the first touch was important as well.

This whole concept of a striker holding the ball up and bringing others into play is what facilitates tippy tappy play in the first place. It's dragging players like Santi further forward, playing a higher line with the defence and leaves us vulnerable to a counter attack. What you describe is exactly why we have games where we require 500 passes to get into the opponents box. It's what we've been doing for years and we haven't been successful at it with Giroud.

Except that's not what I described. The idea is you can't solely lump the ball to Theo, you have to have a mixed attack and Bif can provide that. Corners (if we could learn how to take them), crosses (if we could learn how to provide them), these aren't for Theo. And I don't underestimate his touch and finish yesterday, but I do understand he'll do that 1 in 5 at best and the rest he'll fuck up. A truly top striker is a 1 in 2 player. The Cazorla thing has little to do with it, that's another one of Wenger's crackpot plans that is supposedly designed to keep possession in the opposition half and I guess it does achieve that with the one downside being Coquelin often has to be in two places at once.

It's all a bit confusing. You look at managers like Wenger and van Gaal with all their experience and you think surely they know what they are doing. But then you see Ramsey on the right and Fellaini playing as a central striker and you realise actually, no, they don't. Hard as it is to believe.

[Kano]

Wenger uses that right wing as some sort of throw away experimental position. He always has. Ljunberg was an attacking midifleder. Played more like a number 10 for Sweden but we play him on that right wing. Wiltord was a striker, turns him into a right winger. Eboue got games there. Walcott gets played there. Ox gets played there. I don't understand what Ramsey will learn from playing there. If he's a central midfielder, what experience is that adding to his game?
This is what I've been saying for the past few weeks and why we need to tear up this team once Wenger leaves along with this brand of frustrating football. Speed isn't enough to compensate for lack of understanding of a particular role, which is why shoving Ox, Theo and Wellbeck out onto the wing will only bring limited success. Especially when every single player we play wide wants to play centrally and when they are on the pitch that is exactly what they do. We got away with it when Wiltord and Freddie were put there because they were smart players, surrounded by others who were playing in their right position. They worked as a unit, together. This current lot - bar Alexis - are useless in comparison and just being pacey doesn't cut it, which is why we need at least one player who understands that wide role properly.
If Ox will play as a central midfielder in the future, what's the point of playing him on the wing? What's it adding? It's the same for Walcott. He was supposed to be developed into a striker and there is this huge question mark over Walcott's ability to play there so I don't know why Wenger does it other than just to fudge his best players on to the pitch all at once.
This is what I've been saying for the past few weeks and why we need to tear up this team once Wenger leaves along with this brand of frustrating football. Speed isn't enough to compensate for lack of understanding of a particular role, which is why shoving Ox, Theo and Wellbeck out onto the wing will only bring limited success. Especially when every single player we play wide wants to play centrally and when they are on the pitch that is exactly what they do. We got away with it when Wiltord and Freddie were put there because they were smart players, surrounded by others who were playing in their right position. They worked as a unit, together. This current lot - bar Alexis - are useless in comparison and just being pacey doesn't cut it, which is why we need at least one player who understands that wide role properly.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

If we beat the chavs they are 15 points behind!!!! In September!! Lord of mercy! What more incentive could we need!

All we need then is to get Flamini to put Aguero out for the season when we play City, Flamini isn't going to get a game otherwise anyway and he's off next summer......then we might fluke the league.

[Power n Glory]

Except that's not what I described. The idea is you can't solely lump the ball to Theo, you have to have a mixed attack and Bif can provide that. Corners (if we could learn how to take them), crosses (if we could learn how to provide them), these aren't for Theo. And I don't underestimate his touch and finish yesterday, but I do understand he'll do that 1 in 5 at best and the rest he'll fuck up. A truly top striker is a 1 in 2 player. The Cazorla thing has little to do with it, that's another one of Wenger's crackpot plans that is supposedly designed to keep possession in the opposition half and I guess it does achieve that with the one downside being Coquelin often has to be in two places at once.

It's all a bit confusing. You look at managers like Wenger and van Gaal with all their experience and you think surely they know what they are doing. But then you see Ramsey on the right and Fellaini playing as a central striker and you realise actually, no, they don't. Hard as it is to believe.

Your generalising with the amount of chances Theo needs to score. It's not the case with every game as seen by the West Brom hat trick game but that's easy to forget. Same goes for the Newcastle hat trick.

I don't know what your envision for Giroud but he's just off for at the moment. You saw the sitter he missed and he's not the type of striker that gets a lot of chances. It's not as if the West Ham game didn't happen. We had Oxford on the right with Ramsey in the middle but lost the game some how. I'm in no rush to see him back into the team because it's the games where we create nothing with all the possession in the world that bothers me most.

[selassie]

If we beat the chavs they are 15 points behind!!!! In September!! Lord of mercy! What more incentive could we need!

All we need then is to get Flamini to put Aguero out for the season when we play City, Flamini isn't going to get a game otherwise anyway and he's off next summer......then we might fluke the league.

A draw would be a great result too, as long as we don't lose next week that will pretty much end their season or any hope of a proper title challenge IMO.

I have a nasty feeling they are going to turn us over though, we are the perfect team to play to kick start anyone's season!

[Alpha]

Wrighty made a few good observations on MOTD last night. He showed how Walcott's movement in the centre is almost non-existent and how he only really sparks when he's coming from the wing and cutting in. Walcott is so obviously more effective out there, wonder why he's so determined to play centrally when he's not good at it? Theo wants a run of games so he can establish himself centrally - now many goals will it cost us to give him that run? He has to play wide and Bif has to play centrally. The real problem is Wenger's refusal to choose 2 from Ozil, Cazorla and Ramsey. He's determined to play all 3 all the time no matter the opponent.

How many games did it take Henry , Adebayor , RVP , Anelka ..etc to establish themselves as effective centre forwards for Arsenal ? Didn't i Wenger got bashed for giving them that opportunity ?
Walcott is a CF who had been wasted on flanks for quite long . It would surely take him some time to recover his boots . I would suggest we gave him at least half a season of a good run before making any judgment .

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Perhaps....but like I am Invisible says.....if we we're choosing a time to play them, it would probably be now. In 2 months time they might have completely turned it around for all we know...?

In all honesty after Matic scored one back yesterday, I didn't think they were that bad, but clearly several of their key players aren't on top of their game and Everton were really good.

A draw away to Chelsea is perfectly acceptable but when you lose to West Ham at home, who I personally maintain are nothing special, you need to start nicking a few points from games you're less expected to take them from.......that is of course, IF you're talking about shaping up to win the league.

[Niall_Quinn]

How many games did it take Henry , Adebayor , RVP , Anelka ..etc to establish themselves as effective centre forwards for Arsenal ? Didn't i Wenger got bashed for giving them that opportunity ?
Walcott is a CF who had been wasted on flanks for quite long . It would surely take him some time to recover his boots . I would suggest we gave him at least half a season of a good run before making any judgment .

Well the why hasn't Wenger done that? When did RvC leave? Why is Giroud even here? Monsieur Hapless could have made all this happen a long time ago. Why do we have to sacrifice another season while Theo find his boots? But okay, I'm game, considering Monsieur I Know Best But Still Don't Get Results has failed to sign the striker we've needed for how long now? Might as well be Theo I suppose, if we're still experimenting at the top level.

[Alpha]

Well the why hasn't Wenger done that? When did RvC leave? Why is Giroud even here? Monsieur Hapless could have made all this happen a long time ago. Why do we have to sacrifice another season while Theo find his boots? But okay, I'm game, considering Monsieur I Know Best But Still Don't Get Results has failed to sign the striker we've needed for how long now? Might as well be Theo I suppose, if we're still experimenting at the top level.

Well , I got the point but if you go down memory lane , you will remember this has always been the way Arsene does his things at Arsenal . I don't remember the last time he signed a ready made world class striker .He always made them from nobody's .
The last of them was RVP . when Ade left , I remember Van Persie Flopping against Fulham and getting done by Sheffield united defenders in the following game . Everyone : Media , fans , pundits questioned Wenger " silly decision" not to buy a striker instead of wasting time with RVP .
Not long after that , when RVP started performing , the same people were praising Wenger for finding a "world class " striker in RVP .
We won back to back FA Cup without that "world class " striker .I believe if we would have to win something more than just a FA Cup , it would be down to the teamwork rather than just a striker .
By the way , before RVP left he was one of the best strikers around and we failed to win even a Carling cup . Isn't it that ironic ?

[Power n Glory]

I have to admit, I had serious doubts about RVP as striker. Besides the injury problems he made the wrong runs, was very selfish in his play and just wasn't aware of his surroundings. But then all that changed. Morphed into a beast of a striker. Banging them in with his left foot, right foot, headers, poachers, screamers.... I miss that guy! Why the heck couldn't we have told him the sponsorship deals were due the following season?

[Kano]

Goes to show we weren't the only ones sick of hearing 'next season will be better'.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well , I got the point but if you go down memory lane , you will remember this has always been the way Arsene does his things at Arsenal . I don't remember the last time he signed a ready made world class striker .He always made them from nobody's .
The last of them was RVP . when Ade left , I remember Van Persie Flopping against Fulham and getting done by Sheffield united defenders in the following game . Everyone : Media , fans , pundits questioned Wenger " silly decision" not to buy a striker instead of wasting time with RVP .
Not long after that , when RVP started performing , the same people were praising Wenger for finding a "world class " striker in RVP .
We won back to back FA Cup without that "world class " striker .I believe if we would have to win something more than just a FA Cup , it would be down to the teamwork rather than just a striker .
By the way , before RVP left he was one of the best strikers around and we failed to win even a Carling cup . Isn't it that ironic ?

What you are saying is all true, I don't disagree with any of it. Which is why Wenger has to go. We've had his decade of experimentation and make do and mend and even though he's pulled off some excellent transformations, can't deny it, we need to get on with the business of competing for titles now. We don't have another decade for him to play his games. And it's not just the striker role, it's every crucial position on the pitch. His experiments with keepers, his outrageous patch-up jobs in the centre of defence, his round pegs in square holes in the middle, his banishment of players to the wings. It's all interesting as a theoretical experiment but in the end it has resulted on us being off the pace every season. Even if we sacrifice this season for Theo, we still need that midfielder. When does that happen, the season after? How many more seasons until we get the balanced team that can challenge?

Arsenal isn't Wenger's pet project, or at least it shouldn't be. Let's get a proper manager now and get on with the business of challenging for the top spot. That's what this stadium and the sponsorship deals and all the wrangling in the boardroom was supposed to achieve, so let's do that.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Completely off topic but I totally missed Draxler signing for Wolfsburg! Undisclosed fee....typical.

I think in the absence of finding the solution up top, Wenger might have signed Kondogbia who can play CB as well as DM or Vidal. Might as well have strengthened another area

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Wenger won't stay another decade NQ...especially if he doesn't win anything too....

[Penguin]

Theo has impressed me tbf, his movement is really good. I'm not too worried about his finishing which will pick up when he builds up a bit of confidence.

But the best strikers can play with their back to goal AND behind the defence. Both Theo and Giroud can only do one or the other and that's one of the reasons neither will ever reach that level. The goals will come, especially in open games like Stoke and Villa, but we haven't seen him against a decent, organised team that sit back a bit deeper. He was completely ineffective against Chelsea in the community shield and I have a feeling we'll be seeing more games like that.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Chelsea have conceded the most goals this season.....just saying....

[Injury Time]

Chelsea have conceded the most goals this season.....just saying....

We've created the most chances in the BLitW and have goal difference of +2...just saying...

[Letters]

We're 3rd...just saying...

[Özim]

We're 3rd...just saying...

We're actually 4th

[Letters]

So we are :lol:
But I don't think Leicester are going to worry us long term, do you?

[Niall_Quinn]

We're 3rd...just saying...

It's too early to say where we are in the table.

[Injury Time]

It's too early to say where we are in the table.

4th, job done time to kick back and reeeeeeelax :cool:

[Letters]

It's too early to say where we are in the table.

I agree. But if people can wail and gnash their teeth after a loss on the first day then they should stop doing so after a decent few results and a good performance on Saturday

[Power n Glory]

I agree. But if people can wail and gnash their teeth after a loss on the first day then they should stop doing so after a decent few results and a good performance on Saturday

Knock it off. You're just dragging up old stuff. I can't see many really going overboard after this result.

[Letters]

No-one should go overboard after this result, but they shouldn't have after the first game - and plenty did. That's my point.
I said the table only takes shape later in the season and was roundly criticised for it despite the fact it's clearly true.

[Power n Glory]

No-one should go overboard after this result, but they shouldn't have after the first game - and plenty did. That's my point.
I said the table only takes shape later in the season and was roundly criticised for it despite the fact it's clearly true.

Nobody was going overboard then either. We shouldn't be losing our opening game at home.

[Niall_Quinn]

Nobody was going overboard then either. We shouldn't be losing our opening game at home.

It's too early to tell if we should be losing our opening game at home.

[Letters]

Nobody was going overboard then either.
From the match reaction thread - and this is just from the first couple of pages


this is a very eazrly reminder that this team can still fuck up at any given moment and it is not ready to mount a serious challenge.


We should be grateful that we've had our optimism absolutely shat on at the very start. Get rid of foolish title hope and settle down for our perineal top four scrap out. We've got a whole season of the same old shit to come


If you thought at any point this offseason that we were going to win the league, I hope you know better now.


Same as usual, 3rd or 4th place finish this season after dropping out of the title race by October

Really? :lol: After 1 game?!

And no, we shouldn't have lost it but the above is a ridiculous over-reaction to how a season will go 1 game in.

[Niall_Quinn]

From the match reaction thread - and this is just from the first couple of pages









Really? :lol: After 1 game?!

And no, we shouldn't have lost it but the above is a ridiculous over-reaction to how a season will go 1 game in.

No, after 10 years.

[Letters]

Bull. Shit.

No-one would have been posting that sort of guff had we won the game.

[Power n Glory]

From the match reaction thread - and this is just from the first couple of pages









Really? :lol: After 1 game?!

And no, we shouldn't have lost it but the above is a ridiculous over-reaction to how a season will go 1 game in.

As NQ said, that's not an assessment after just one game. That's 10 years of sheer frustration. I won't go over this debate with you because I'm starting to think there is something mentally wrong with you. Certain things you just fail to process and comprehend despite being repeated over and over.

[Letters]

Yeah. I think going overboard after one game is ridiculous and I'm the one who can't comprehend things :lol:

[Power n Glory]

Yeah. I think going overboard after one game is ridiculous and I'm the one who can't comprehend things :lol:

Case and point. Totally retarded.

[Globalgunner]

Another 5 years of this same mundane crap and we will still be accused of overreacting. Winning leagues isnt important. we get it Letters. Back to your wormhole.

[Letters]

Case and point. Totally retarded.

Winning arguments by declaring yourself right, the tactics of an intellectual giant as always... :lol:


So you think those quotes above are reasonable and rational responses to the first game of the season?
Forget the last 10 years, the last 2 years we've won the FA Cup, last year we also finished above everyone apart from the two billionaire-fuelled teams. There is some cause for optimism. And you think those quotes are a reasonable, logical assessment?

[Özim]

No, after 10 years.

Pretty much, we've been there and seen it for 10 years now, football is suppose to be unpredictable but sadly it isn't for us because we already know what we're going to get, qualification for the CL and last 16 in CL.

We've done nothing this season to prove anything is different, once again we've started badly and don't look anything like title contenders at all, but then it's not too surprising when barely a thing has changed since last season, we had our chances to try and change stuff this summer and miraculously failed to do so, but as always we had our lame excuses at the ready.

[Letters]

Another 5 years of this same mundane crap and we will still be accused of overreacting. Winning leagues isnt important. we get it Letters. Back to your wormhole.

Straw men :bow:

It's so easy to win arguments when you lie about the other person's position.

[Letters]

once again we've started badly
No we haven't.

[Power n Glory]

Winning arguments by declaring yourself right, the tactics of an intellectual giant as always... :lol:


So you think those quotes above are reasonable and rational responses to the first game of the season?
Forget the last 10 years, the last 2 years we've won the FA Cup, last year we also finished above everyone apart from the two billionaire-fuelled teams. There is some cause for optimism. And you think those quotes are a reasonable, logical assessment?

This is why you're retarded.

[Özim]

No we haven't.

I think we have, we've played pretty poorly and already lost and drawn a game (both at home, somewhat lucky not to lose to Liverpool as well) and got lucky against Palace. We haven't got a hope of winning the title, that much is clear.

[Niall_Quinn]

Winning arguments by declaring yourself right, the tactics of an intellectual giant as always... :lol:


So you think those quotes above are reasonable and rational responses to the first game of the season?
Forget the last 10 years, the last 2 years we've won the FA Cup, last year we also finished above everyone apart from the two billionaire-fuelled teams. There is some cause for optimism. And you think those quotes are a reasonable, logical assessment?

It was only the other day you were telling me what I thought and what I believed. For a while I took you seriously but ended up not being able to live with myself, so I rebelled and formed my own opinions.

[Letters]

:). OK, so unable to debate the point you just resort to insults.
But yeah, I'm the WUM...

:coffee:

[Niall_Quinn]

Straw men :bow:

It's so easy to win arguments when you lie about the other person's position.

Hell of a brass neck considering Cripps was banned for this.

[Letters]

I think we have, we've played pretty poorly and already lost and drawn a game (both at home, somewhat lucky not to lose to Liverpool as well) and got lucky against Palace. We haven't got a hope of winning the title, that much is clear.

I think we've played poorly too - until Saturday which was much better - but the results have been fine, we're way above Chelsea and only City have hit the ground running so no, nothing is clear yet. As I said earlier in this thread - well, someone else said and I agreed - the Chelsea game is key. They're there for the taking right now but our record against them is awful. Hopefully the Community Shield result will have got that monkey off our back. We could almost kill off their title chances which makes me think we won't. A draw wouldn't be a terrible result, a win would, in my mind, show we're serious contenders this year.

[Niall_Quinn]

:). OK, so unable to debate the point you just resort to insults.
But yeah, I'm the WUM...

:coffee:

The problem is, you are unable to debate the point. As has been said, the point has been stated 10,372,448 times, but you still don't register it let alone debate it. I wouldn't have called you retarded, personally. I'd have probably settled for something more political, like "resolute", or "committed" (not literally committed)

[Letters]

The problem is, you are unable to debate the point.
I've done it repeatedly in the last few pages, the usual suspects have just resorted to personal jibes and insults.
The "point" seems to be "the last 10 years" but that "point" makes no sense when things change constantly in football, the new financial deals have seen a new level of signing and those players have clearly made a difference. Belittle the FA Cup all you like but it's a start and 3rd and the FA Cup last year is a pretty decent season. Yes, we need to push on and challenge for the biggest prizes, yes the lack of a major signing up front will hamper our chances. But over-reacting after 1 game makes no sense. 5 games in and we're doing OK, Saturday was a good performance. Lose the Chelsea game and yes, it's back to square one but FFS give the lads a chance.

[Power n Glory]

The problem is, you are unable to debate the point. As has been said, the point has been stated 10,372,448 times, but you still don't register it let alone debate it. I wouldn't have called you retarded, personally. I'd have probably settled for something more political, like "resolute", or "committed" (not literally committed)

:gp:

He just doesn't get it and there is no point in 'debating' with him.

Oh, now you want to politically correct! :lol:

[Letters]

:). OK, so unable to debate the point you just resort to insults.
:gp:

:coffee:

[Niall_Quinn]

I've done it repeatedly in the last few pages, the usual suspects have just resorted to personal jibes and insults.
The "point" seems to be "the last 10 years" but that "point" makes no sense when things change constantly in football, the new financial deals have seen a new level of signing and those players have clearly made a difference. Belittle the FA Cup all you like but it's a start and 3rd and the FA Cup last year is a pretty decent season. Yes, we need to push on and challenge for the biggest prizes, yes the lack of a major signing up front will hamper our chances. But over-reacting after 1 game makes no sense. 5 games in and we're doing OK, Saturday was a good performance. Lose the Chelsea game and yes, it's back to square one but FFS give the lads a chance.

Football does indeed change, no arguing against that. And it has changed over the past 10 years.

BUT IT IS THE MANAGEMENT OF WENGER THAT HASN'T CHANGED. That is the problem. Yes he has signed better players now he has access to more funds. That's a good thing and everyone agrees with it. But even with these players he is still making many of the same old mistakes he has been making for a decade. This is what stressed out and pissed off observers are keying on. Bad tactics, bad formations with players out of position, seemingly zero appreciation of the opponent (and for Man City, which apparently the players managed themselves anyway, you can point to a Monaco and call the former a one-off), penny-pinching when he no longer needs to, HIS ideas about what represents value even though, as you correctly point out, the game has changed and the whole notion of value has gone out the window. All the signs that have foretold a failure to compete in the league or put up a respectable showing in the CL are still there, including this season. The 10 years are important, despite the new signings and FA cups, because the same patterns are consistent over those 10 years. The game has changed, the manager hasn't. There lies the problem. You have actually stated it yourself, probably without realising. That's what people mean when they say fresh blood, fresh ideas, a manager who realises the game has changed and is suited to dealing with those changes. Agreed, it won't be easy to find somebody suitably qualified, but we should be looking. We mustn't drift into a situation where 2017 arrives and there's no viable alternative so Wenger signs up in a fait accompli. Rather like the striker situation, years to sort it out but again we are hearing his excuses about nobody being available THIS season. Convenient but it's a framed excuse that ignores the past.

[Niall_Quinn]

:gp:

He just doesn't get it and there is no point in 'debating' with him.

Oh, now you want to politically correct! :lol:

Yes, I'm always politically sensitive. Show one example where this isn't the case.

[I am invisible]

Encouraging performance from Theo, I thought? First time I've seen him play CF where he's looked constantly involved and threatening. Should have smashed about 9, of course, but the chances he was getting on the end of looked varied, and I was pleased to see our playmakers starting to pick him out with some regularity - if that understanding is finally starting to develop, then it bodes well for us.

Is it just me, or is he starting to look a little bit more stocky? And is his first-touch starting to look half-decent too? I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying it makes him a strong dribbler or anything, but if it's getting good enough to control the ball under pressure, and create space for himself to shoot, then that might be enough?

[Power n Glory]

Football does indeed change, no arguing against that. And it has changed over the past 10 years.

BUT IT IS THE MANAGEMENT OF WENGER THAT HASN'T CHANGED. That is the problem. Yes he has signed better players now he has access to more funds. That's a good thing and everyone agrees with it. But even with these players he is still making many of the same old mistakes he has been making for a decade. This is what stressed out and pissed off observers are keying on. Bad tactics, bad formations with players out of position, seemingly zero appreciation of the opponent (and for Man City, which apparently the players managed themselves anyway, you can point to a Monaco and call the former a one-off), penny-pinching when he no longer needs to, HIS ideas about what represents value even though, as you correctly point out, the game has changed and the whole notion of value has gone out the window. All the signs that have foretold a failure to compete in the league or put up a respectable showing in the CL are still there, including this season. The 10 years are important, despite the new signings and FA cups, because the same patterns are consistent over those 10 years. The game has changed, the manager hasn't. There lies the problem. You have actually stated it yourself, probably without realising. That's what people mean when they say fresh blood, fresh ideas, a manager who realises the game has changed and is suited to dealing with those changes. Agreed, it won't be easy to find somebody suitably qualified, but we should be looking. We mustn't drift into a situation where 2017 arrives and there's no viable alternative so Wenger signs up in a fait accompli. Rather like the striker situation, years to sort it out but again we are hearing his excuses about nobody being available THIS season. Convenient but it's a framed excuse that ignores the past.

Be prepared for some comeback about competing against two oil baron run clubs with the infinite money cheat and us winning the FA Cup, it's not that bad, judge him at the end of the season....;)

[Niall_Quinn]

Encouraging performance from Theo, I thought? First time I've seen him play CF where he's looked constantly involved and threatening. Should have smashed about 9, of course, but the chances he was getting on the end of looked varied, and I was pleased to see our playmakers starting to pick him out with some regularity - if that understanding is finally starting to develop, then it bodes well for us.

Is it just me, or is he starting to look a little bit more stocky? And is his first-touch starting to look half-decent too? I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying it makes him a strong dribbler or anything, but if it's getting good enough to control the ball under pressure, and create space for himself to shoot, then that might be enough?

Yes, it looks like he's bulked up a bit. Or else he's eating doughnuts with his broccoli.

[Power n Glory]

Encouraging performance from Theo, I thought? First time I've seen him play CF where he's looked constantly involved and threatening. Should have smashed about 9, of course, but the chances he was getting on the end of looked varied, and I was pleased to see our playmakers starting to pick him out with some regularity - if that understanding is finally starting to develop, then it bodes well for us.

Is it just me, or is he starting to look a little bit more stocky? And is his first-touch starting to look half-decent too? I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying it makes him a strong dribbler or anything, but if it's getting good enough to control the ball under pressure, and create space for himself to shoot, then that might be enough?

It really was a beautiful touch. Controlled it so it took the ball out of the defenders path and closer to his stronger foot so he could shoot. I like when we plays CF because he can have games where he's just a constant threat like against West Brom, Newcastle and the FA Cup final. Just wave after wave of attack. But he needs to relax a bit and not rush his chances. That should come. But he also needs to a big performance against a major club. If he gets a nod against Chelsea, he has to show up.

[Letters]

Be prepared for some comeback about competing against two oil baron run clubs with the infinite money cheat and us winning the FA Cup, it's not that bad, judge him at the end of the season....;)

Unfortunately I have to leave for the airport otherwise I would reply along those lines. Will do so later though ;)

[Niall_Quinn]

It really was a beautiful touch. Controlled it so it took the ball out of the defenders path and closer to his stronger foot so he could shoot. I like when we plays CF because he can have games where he's just a constant threat like against West Brom, Newcastle and the FA Cup final. Just wave after wave of attack. But he needs to relax a bit and not rush his chances. That should come. But he also needs to a big performance against a major club. If he gets a nod against Chelsea, he has to show up.

And if he doesn't show up? Do we stick with him in the hope he eventually gets it together and his long history of injury (unfortunate and unlucky as it is) doesn't come back to bite him? Is he a viable long term option?

[Niall_Quinn]

Unfortunately I have to leave for the airport otherwise I would reply along those lines. Will do so later though ;)

Which would lead me to point out another inconvenient truth you simply won't acknowledge. We could have finished above one of those oil cheats last season but we collapsed. Nevertheless, it showed we can indeed compete with the oil cheats when we need to qualify for the CL, so it's not just a case of the money. The question is, why can't we compete when the primary objective has been achieved (qualification for the CL)? Regardless, the money cheat excuse was laid bare last season.

[Alpha]

What you are saying is all true, I don't disagree with any of it. Which is why Wenger has to go. We've had his decade of experimentation and make do and mend and even though he's pulled off some excellent transformations, can't deny it, we need to get on with the business of competing for titles now. We don't have another decade for him to play his games. And it's not just the striker role, it's every crucial position on the pitch. His experiments with keepers, his outrageous patch-up jobs in the centre of defence, his round pegs in square holes in the middle, his banishment of players to the wings. It's all interesting as a theoretical experiment but in the end it has resulted on us being off the pace every season. Even if we sacrifice this season for Theo, we still need that midfielder. When does that happen, the season after? How many more seasons until we get the balanced team that can challenge?

Arsenal isn't Wenger's pet project, or at least it shouldn't be. Let's get a proper manager now and get on with the business of challenging for the top spot. That's what this stadium and the sponsorship deals and all the wrangling in the boardroom was supposed to achieve, so let's do that.

I'm not against him quitting but we need a proper replacement . Someone who could take us to a higher level straight away . We don't really need to experiment managers until we find a better one the way Wenger experiments his players . We might end up miles behind Spurs and might start begging Wenger to come bak " all being forgiven "

[Power n Glory]

And if he doesn't show up? Do we stick with him in the hope he eventually gets it together and his long history of injury (unfortunate and unlucky as it is) doesn't come back to bite him? Is he a viable long term option?

If the alternative is Giroud, then I’d stick with him. In 7 appearances, Giroud has never scored against Chelsea. The thing with Giroud, we know his full capacity. We know his strengths, weaknesses and it doesn’t look like he has another level to his game. With Theo, we don’t know. I’d take rather take that risk.

We shouldn’t be in this position. I’ve said for a long time now that Theo should be developing as a striker and plying his trade there. The decisions he makes in the centre and challenges he’ll face with different opponents is totally different from what he faces in the right wing so I don’t understand what Wenger had in mind for this guy when we signed him. The original idea was that he developed into a striker like Henry but he’s a totally different player. We should have been thinking more Ian Wright. Sharpen up his shooting technique and how to negotiate around the box. He’s wasted years of development on crossing the ball, trying to learn how to dribble like Robben when he’s totally incapable of that and that’s something you won’t develop late in the game. But he can develop as a striker. He may have a Daniel Sturridge moment in him but he needs a run there and the manager needs to back him or sell him. I think Wenger has made a complete hash of his development.

[I am invisible]

It really was a beautiful touch. Controlled it so it took the ball out of the defenders path and closer to his stronger foot so he could shoot. I like when we plays CF because he can have games where he's just a constant threat like against West Brom, Newcastle and the FA Cup final. Just wave after wave of attack. But he needs to relax a bit and not rush his chances. That should come. But he also needs to a big performance against a major club. If he gets a nod against Chelsea, he has to show up.

Yeah, I'm not so worried about his finishing - we know he's got a shot on him, and , s others have said, with a consistent run of games he should start to relax into the role, and stop over-thinking his choice of finish. He just needs to work on that kind of relentless effort across 90 minutes - keep moving and probing, and working your markers, even if things aren't coming off.

What I'd really love to see from him, is the kind of off-the-ball, defensive shift that Alexis puts in - I don't want to see him tracking back for miles, or anything like that, but imagine using that pace of his to chase down and press oppo defenders when they're trying to play from the back? That could be a real weapon for us (especially with ALexis doing it too!), and it's the sort of thing that starts to chip away at your markers' confidence and composure after a while...

[I am invisible]

And if he doesn't show up? Do we stick with him in the hope he eventually gets it together and his long history of injury (unfortunate and unlucky as it is) doesn't come back to bite him? Is he a viable long term option?

Does it really matter at this point? Until we get to the next window, there's really not that many alternatives...

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not against him quitting but we need a proper replacement . Someone who could take us to a higher level straight away . We don't really need to experiment managers until we find a better one the way Wenger experiments his players . We might end up miles behind Spurs and might start begging Wenger to come bak " all being forgiven "

Yes I agree, a proper replacement. We should be looking NOW, with a view to having somebody commit by the end of 2016 and starting to get involved as early as possible while Wenger winds out his current contract. Unfortunately we are hearing the opposite from the board, it sounds like they want Wenger to stay forever. And why not? He ticks every box for them. I believe everything would calm down and there would be much greater unity if it was made clear Wenger definitely is leaving in 2017. Everyone could live with that I think, and the search for a replacement could begin nice and early in order to get the very best result.

[Niall_Quinn]

Does it really matter at this point? Until we get to the next window, there's really not that many alternatives...

Probably doesn't matter even for that reason. Theo or Bif will probably get injured long term anyway and settle the issue.

Or both. More likely both.

[Penguin]

Chelsea have conceded the most goals this season.....just saying....
And yet Theo didn't test Courtois once in the community shield. As far as I can remember he couldn't even manage to have a shot on goal. Unfortunately Mourinho knows how to defend against Wenger's teams and Wenger doesn't know how to adapt his tactics to the opponents.

This isn't about Chelsea though, it's about how effective Theo can be against organised teams that sit deep and don't give Theo the space he thrives on in behind. I don't think he's been tested in that respect yet, but we'll have to wait and see how he deals with it.

[selassie]

From the match reaction thread - and this is just from the first couple of pages









Really? :lol: After 1 game?!

And no, we shouldn't have lost it but the above is a ridiculous over-reaction to how a season will go 1 game in.

The bottom quote is mine, I am happy to admit that and I stick by my predicition that we will finish 3rd or 4th this season. If I am proven wrong in a positive way then I'll be delighted.

Any team who harbours ambitions of winning the league doesn't get turned over by West Ham at home with a 16 year old schoolboy running the show. We move on, but I personally think there could be more "banana" skins like that for us this season, I remain unconvinced about the team and the way it has been set up.

[Power n Glory]

Yeah, I'm not so worried about his finishing - we know he's got a shot on him, and , s others have said, with a consistent run of games he should start to relax into the role, and stop over-thinking his choice of finish. He just needs to work on that kind of relentless effort across 90 minutes - keep moving and probing, and working your markers, even if things aren't coming off.

What I'd really love to see from him, is the kind of off-the-ball, defensive shift that Alexis puts in - I don't want to see him tracking back for miles, or anything like that, but imagine using that pace of his to chase down and press oppo defenders when they're trying to play from the back? That could be a real weapon for us (especially with ALexis doing it too!), and it's the sort of thing that starts to chip away at your markers' confidence and composure after a while...

Yeah, Theo needs to work on pressing teams high up the pitch. I think the team need to work on their pressing game overall. That goal we scored came from winning the ball back and it's exactly the type of goal we were scoring during the Invincible days. Win the ball back then attack quickly.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah, Theo needs to work on pressing teams high up the pitch. I think the team need to work on their pressing game overall. That goal we scored came from winning the ball back and it's exactly the type of goal we were scoring during the Invincible days. Win the ball back then attack quickly.

It came from the individual effort of one player, Coquelin, very different to how we used to play when we'd go hunting all across the midfield. If Coquelin loses form or gets injured we have literally nothing in midfield. Cazorla won't do that job, Ozil won't do that job and Ramsey is our pacey winger.

[Kano]

The reason why Wenger probably persists with Ramsey is he offers more security in terms of getting back to help Bellerin than Theo would. It has always been a flaw in Theo's game that he didn't do his fair share of work tracking back and Ox can be guilty of the same thing too. We are seeing the same thing upfront, in that Theo doesn't work the defenders enough when they are in position, a true waste of his pace and an indication of his general lack of work ethic.

[Power n Glory]

Lack of work ethic. That's a broad stroke. Defensively maybe but I remember Henry being the same.

[Power n Glory]

It came from the individual effort of one player, Coquelin, very different to how we used to play when we'd go hunting all across the midfield. If Coquelin loses form or gets injured we have literally nothing in midfield. Cazorla won't do that job, Ozil won't do that job and Ramsey is our pacey winger.

Yeah, something has changed tactically on defending. Maybe Wenger is thinking the deep lying defensive game and pressing dries up the goals and fatigues our players. I'm sure last season Rosicky said we aimed to win the ball back within 15 seconds of us losing it but if unsuccessful we focus on our shape and defend deep as a 4-4-2. That went out the window as the season went on though.

It looks like we're leaving more gaps in the midfield and I have a feeling Wenger is trying to fool our opponents into moving into that space and trying to attack us. Stillman mentioned this on Arseblog recently referring to the tactic he was using in the Song days when Song would roam forward. Very risky but it may explain it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah, something has changed tactically on defending. Maybe Wenger is thinking the deep lying defensive game and pressing dries up the goals and fatigues our players. I'm sure last season Rosicky said we aimed to win the ball back within 15 seconds of us losing it but if unsuccessful we focus on our shape and defend deep as a 4-4-2. That went out the window as the season went on though.

It looks like we're leaving more gaps in the midfield and I have a feeling Wenger is trying to fool our opponents into moving into that space and trying to attack us. Stillman mentioned this on Arseblog recently referring to the tactic he was using in the Song days when Song would roam forward. Very risky but it may explain it.

I read that too. It puts massive pressure on Coquelin who is being deliberately exposed so Cazorla can command space ahead of him. In theory designed to maintain as much possession as possible in the opponent's half. The foundation stone of tippy tappy. A decent team will rip us to shreds one of these days. That's why I haven't been as sold on Cazorla's performances as many. Great going forward, missing going back - because he's not permitted to if the claims are true. But I have certainly noticed Coquelin trying to be in two places at once. The kid has done amazingly well to cope so far.

[Kano]

Lack of work ethic. That's a broad stroke. Defensively maybe but I remember Henry being the same.
If you are being serious, there should never ever really be a comparison between those two. What Henry lacked in some areas, he heavily over compensated for elsewhere. Theo? We're still waiting ten years later to see if he'll ever have anything to offer.

Theo often left Sagna exposed in the days when our defence was even more of a shambles and you won't often see him chasing down a defender or drifting back to help out.

[Kano]

And hat's off again to Letters. He is our Coquelin. A one man battering ram sacrificing himself for the greater cause of GW. In fact, there are glorious shades of Wumger in his play too. It's a beautifully staged tragedy. One of the greatest trolls we'll ever witness. He is keeping this place alive with his counter arguments. Keeping the debate section ticking over after a win that means our complaints are at their least potent. There have been subtle changes his stance that means he is in danger of giving the game away if he's not careful, but so far he's playing a blinder. Our days would be lost without his subterfuge .

[Power n Glory]

If you are being serious, there should never ever really be a comparison between those two. What Henry lacked in some areas, he heavily over compensated for elsewhere. Theo? We're still waiting ten years later to see if he'll ever have anything to offer.

Theo often left Sagna exposed in the days when our defence was even more of a shambles and you won't often see him chasing down a defender or drifting back to help out.

I'm not comparing overall ability. That should be obvious. I'm just talking about defending. Henry wouldn't do the 'dirty work' as he called it but I wouldn't make a sweeping statement and suggest there was something wrong with his work ethic. You get some players that are like that. And I don't see why when using a player as an example, we have to get into overall ability. We're just talking about specific areas of their game. You get strikers that aren't the defensive marauding type. Henry wasn't one. Ibra is another example and we could extend that comparison to wingers, like Sanchez vs Pires. Different types of players. That's the comparison. It's like me saying Henry and Theo are both quick players. That's an obvious comparison as the type of players they are. I'm not comparing records and achievements. Just attributes and traits.

[Power n Glory]

A good piece from Arseblog on the game.

http://arseblog.com/2015/09/tactics-column-walcott-stakes-his-claim-while-cazorla-masterful-once-again/


In the not too distant past, Arsene Wenger spoke about a striker he signed in his second season in charge at AS Monaco, the Argentine Ramon Diaz. In training, he would say Diaz was so focused on his finishing that “every time he missed a chance, he went absolutely mad. I said to him ‘calm down’ He said to me: ‘Boss, I played 8 years in Italy; I had one, maximum two chances per game. I knew if I missed one, my game was over.’ That’s a little bit [similar] to the Premier League. You do not get 10 chances. You do not get five. You get one or two and you have to put them away.”

It’s this anecdote that Wenger chose to repeat last season, on the eve of the summer transfer window, seemingly throwing the gauntlet to his strikers to be more clinical. Arsenal’s riposte in the next match, against Leicester City, was positive, shooting on goal 24 times, though they could only manage a 1-1 draw. The next day, Wenger splashed out £16m on Danny Welbeck.

This transfer window Wenger has been a little more forgiving, pinning his hopes on his current two strikers, plus midfielders to get the goals required. Both Theo Walcott and Olivier Giroud got on the scoresheet in Arsenal’s 2-0 win over the weekend, but perhaps more notable is the amount of big chances that were missed.

Wenger however, is not unduly worried. He believes that finishing is a learned skill; it’s the “easiest [thing] to improve. We created chances – you cannot do that in training but in training you can work a lot on the finishing and improve that,” he once said. Instead the focus post-match was on two things: the amount of chances Arsenal created, and that with greater belief, goalscoring will come easier to Giroud and Walcott.

It’s an interesting issue and a perverse way of looking at the battle between the two strikers might be that it boils down to who misses less. Because, if Arsenal will always create chances, it doesn’t matter so much how many they score but who develops quicker over the season to put enough of them away.

Theo Walott’s missed chances suggest that he’s better placed to be more prolific purely because of the persistence he has to get into dangerous areas. Giroud is a fighter, a more rounded player than given credit for and although he has added more dexterity to his finishing – the scissor-kick against Crystal Palace for example – it’s still alarming the lack of variety there is to his movement.

The quick dart to the near post is still his modus operandi while a close second is the angled run to the left side of penalty area – similar to the chance he missed after coming on, dragging a shot wide of the near post. He’s also not as much of an aerial threat crosses as he should be, which again might boil down to his movement. He tends to hang back just off his marker for headers instead of attacking the six-yard box.

The final point is an important one when appraising Giroud and Walcott because it was suggested that Walcott doesn’t suit deep-lying defences, as shown by his displays against Chelsea in the Community Shield and Newcastle United, but Giroud’s target-man presence does. Yet the Stoke game illustrated what Walcott does well is stretch defences, creating space in between for the midfielders to play.

Giroud does something similar in that he’s a wall to bounce passes off yet, and though he’s a tough competitor to play against, defenders generally want the game in front of them and don’t want to constantly be on the turn and facing their own goal. Walcott makes them do that and while he’s still adjusting to the role, it will be interesting to see how this develops. Certainly, the Chelsea centre-backs and indeed, Aston Villa in the FA Cup seemed to be scared of him, dropping off and in turn, opening the space in front for Arsenal to play. Given Chelsea’s vulnerabilities in defensive midfield this season, it may be worth exploring the deployment of Walcott up front to force pressure on Matic/Mikel and Fabregas to track Arsenal’s creative players.

Going back to the 2-0 win over Stoke, it seemed Arsenal’s midfielders appreciated having someone up top who could get onto the end of passes and they rarely looked to play it long – as they tend to do when Giroud is on the pitch. On the one hand that was partly down to Stoke’s tactics as they barely pressed Arsenal, instead looking to sit back with 10-men behind the ball, inviting The Gunners on to them.

On the other hand, however, Arsenal’s fluency was breathtaking in the first-half, cutting open the Stoke defence with ease, particularly in the first fifteen minutes. Theo Walcott missed his best chance, skying his effort off-balance over the bar after Alexis had a header tipped onto the post.

There were 7 shots in that period and as Arsenal failed to finish their openings, anxiety (typically) seemed to seep into the stadium and creep onto the pitch. But as I said to my friend at the game at the time, invariably there would be a lull and it would be all about how Arsenal come out from it. Thankfully, things came together perfectly for the opening goal, from the tackle by Francis Coquelin to the pass from Mesut Ozil, and then, what Walcott was waiting for all game, the defence pushing up. His touch was superb and the finish more like what we expected from the striker.

When Giroud added the second late in the game, it highlighted the stark differences between the way the two players operate with Walcott a more persistent, perpetual buzz around the opposition backline while Giroud will battle for loose balls and tend to drop off to link-up play. Yet, despite their differences, it’s not unrealistic for Wenger to feel he can rotate the two players without altering much the way Arsenal play because they have a facilitating effect on the team.

In a way, they’re both a decoy and an outlet to the team’s passing at the same time, occupying defences and creating space for the four behind. Indeed, behind that line of creative players, Coquelin sandwiches and protects them, and after the game, Santi Cazorla went out of his way to praise the holding midfielder, saying he’s “one the best in world in his position.”

Bafflingly, Coquelin divides the fanbase, though for me, it’s been a joy to see the way he has improved. There’s so much hidden dexterity to his play. Still, I believe when Arsenal play badly, he’s scapegoated a bit in that he’s blamed for not offering enough in terms of ball-circulation and penetration when poor positional play is often the problem (as was the case especially against West Ham and Newcastle United). That was much improved in this game, with Santi Cazorla the man-of-the-match for the way he drifted into pockets of space to the side of Coquelin and in between the wingers.

In the first-half, Cazorla tended operate more in his normal play-making role but tended to favour the right where Aaron Ramsey hugged the touchline better and dovetailed well with Hector Bellerin. In that sense, the formation was closer to a 4-1-4-1 with Ozil preferring the left side. In the second-half, Wenger opted for a switch, moving Cazorla to the other side and asking Ramsey to tuck in a bit. The result was a more disjointed half as Arsenal lacked Cazorla’s presence in the centre.

The by-product though, was that he was more involved higher up the pitch, linking up with Ozil and Alexis in particular. The gist of the reshuffle from Wenger seemed to revolve around optimising Arsenal’s efficiency by putting Alexis, Arsenal’s best finisher normally, closer to goal, and have Cazorla covering. At the end of the game,

Cazorla created 7 chances to Ozil’s 8, but as 7amKickOff points out in his “By the Numbers” blog, his tended to be of higher quality. His masterful performance also ensured that there was only one talking point at the end of the match as the other positional debate, Ramsey v Cazorla never was allowed to gain any traction. When Ozil was taken off, Ramsey instantly moved to the centre, expecting to receive instructions to assume his place in his absence, but was quickly told to stay back wide. Cazorla took the reigns and delivered the cross for the second goal to wrap up the win.

[Kano]

I'm not comparing overall ability. That should be obvious. I'm just talking about defending. Henry wouldn't do the 'dirty work' as he called it but I wouldn't make a sweeping statement and suggest there was something wrong with his work ethic. You get some players that are like that. And I don't see why when using a player as an example, we have to get into overall ability. We're just talking about specific areas of their game. You get strikers that aren't the defensive marauding type. Henry wasn't one. Ibra is another example and we could extend that comparison to wingers, like Sanchez vs Pires. Different types of players. That's the comparison. It's like me saying Henry and Theo are both quick players. That's an obvious comparison as the type of players they are. I'm not comparing records and achievements. Just attributes and traits.

I wouldn't make a sweeping statement when the other areas of a players game so utterly detracts from their negatives. Theo on the other hand is a wondering question mark, a player who has still to prove what the point of his professional career has been so far, so every area of his game is up for questioning. There is nothing to detract from his faults when his supposed positives appear so sporadically, when he actually makes it onto the pitch that is.

[Power n Glory]

I wouldn't make a sweeping statement when the other areas of a players game so utterly detracts from their negatives. Theo on the other hand is a wondering question mark, a player who has still to prove what the point of his professional career has been so far, so every area of his game is up for questioning. There is nothing to detract from his faults when his supposed positives appear so sporadically, when he actually makes it onto the pitch that is.

In your mind maybe. You've quickly forgotten the season where he was our top goal scorer and top with the assists. But that's another argument and I don't think you'll see past the negatives in Theo's case regardless which explains a lot.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

We've created the most chances in the BLitW and have goal difference of +2...just saying...

The point is (though I suspect you realised) if you don't want to play Chelsea now, when do you want to play them? Their poor form is great but it would be naive to believe it will continue indefinitely or that their record of conceding the most goals in the league will remain.

Of course we would avoid playing them all together if we could but we have to play them. And of course in an ideal world we'd simply be good enough to beat them even on the top of their game.

[fakeyank]

And hat's off again to Letters. He is our Coquelin. A one man battering ram sacrificing himself for the greater cause of GW. In fact, there are glorious shades of Wumger in his play too. It's a beautifully staged tragedy. One of the greatest trolls we'll ever witness. He is keeping this place alive with his counter arguments. Keeping the debate section ticking over after a win that means our complaints are at their least potent. There have been subtle changes his stance that means he is in danger of giving the game away if he's not careful, but so far he's playing a blinder. Our days would be lost without his subterfuge .

:gp:

Cant agree more. One of the best modding jobs on any forum ever.

These days I dont even feel like debating him because he is just doing such a spectacular job keeping this place ticking. He needs to be given the Noble Prize tbf..

[Kano]

In your mind maybe. You've quickly forgotten the season where he was our top goal scorer and top with the assists. But that's another argument and I don't think you'll see past the negatives in Theo's case regardless which explains a lot.
We're already talking about Theo as if he's retired. Do you remember that season when he scored and assisted? Yeah that was good, I remember those good ole days. For a player in his mid-twenties that says it all.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Encouraging performance from Theo, I thought? First time I've seen him play CF where he's looked constantly involved and threatening. Should have smashed about 9, of course, but the chances he was getting on the end of looked varied, and I was pleased to see our playmakers starting to pick him out with some regularity - if that understanding is finally starting to develop, then it bodes well for us.

Is it just me, or is he starting to look a little bit more stocky? And is his first-touch starting to look half-decent too? I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying it makes him a strong dribbler or anything, but if it's getting good enough to control the ball under pressure, and create space for himself to shoot, then that might be enough?

One of the latter questions on today's Arseblog extra was 'Does the amount of Chances Theo had against Stoke, prove that he is capable of being a forward'. I found the question interesting and even Arseblog who hates Theo found the evidence for compelling and at least thought provoking. I sometimes get the feeling that the argument against him shifts from 'oh he can't hold it up' to 'oh he couldn't finish his wife's dinner never mind a chance' as per the whim of his naysayers arguments. Which is it though? If he is missing so many chances then surely the first stand point of not being able to hold it up increasingly becomes moot?...after all...he's getting the chances and himself in the positions.

If it is about him holding the ball up....why is that such an issue if he himself is getting so many chances? If it is about his lack of finishing.....do we believe Giroud's is generally any better? How many honestly believe that Theo could or would go several games WITHOUT scoring as Giroud did last season (that is a wide spread of different teams to face)? If we don't believe he would then why shouldn't we allow him the run of games up front he has never had whilst we have the options we have and why are we so against it if the alternative leaves a lot to be desired when it most matters?

Some are almost arguing the case from the position of having a world class forward amongst our selection that we don't actually have? We didn't actually buy Benzema, but I'd swear some people think we did.

The only interesting deviation is the prospect of playing Sanchez at CF...... Wenger tried this very early on in Alexis' career here and Alexis wasn't his typical effective self, yet nobody completely wrote off his prospect of being able to do it, though some have with Theo. That was inspite of Wenger shortly moving Sanchez to the left which he then went on to flourish from. This is also almost moot point though because it is clear that Wenger is choosing from Giroud and Theo in that central position not from Theo, Giroud and Sanchez and even if he does use Sanchez.....we give ourselves a void to fill from wide.

[Power n Glory]

We're already talking about Theo as if he's retired. Do you remember that season when he scored and assisted? Yeah that was good, I remember those good ole days. For a player in his mid-twenties that says it all.

11 goals in 11 starts if we want to talk recent games. But you're just proving my point. It explains it all.

[Niall_Quinn]

For me the frustration with Theo is based on potential that hasn't been realised. He's been blighted with injury, that's unlucky but it is what it is and he hasn't been able to get on the pitch consistently. Sometimes he looks a world beater, the rest of the time he's inconsistent and varies between okay to awful to anonymous. But still, on those occasions where he looks genuinely dangerous and is on top of his game it just reminds you to be even more frustrated when he goes off the boil. In the end I suppose the acid test was wanting him to stay or thinking about the prospect of him flying down the wing in a chav or gyps or scouser shirt. Better he stayed. He has to stay injury free though and he has to put in a solid run of performances whether in the middle or out wide. No more of those games where he goes missing.

[Niall_Quinn]

11 goals in 11 starts if we want to talk recent games. But you're just proving my point. It explains it all.

How were the 11 distributed though and against which opponents. That type of stat, 11 in 11, doesn't really prove much without examining the finer details. Rooney got to be the top goalscorer for England by beating up on the San Marinos and Uzbekistans.

[AFC Leveller]

If we had proper box to box CMs like Vieira and petit, then we'd be able to play both Giroud and Theo up front and i think that would be a handfull for defenders. However, Wenger is intent on playing a lone striker no matter what and we find ourselves debating who is better than the other.

They both offer different options for us but long term, i think Theo would get more goals for us.

[Niall_Quinn]

If we had proper box to box CMs like Vieira and petit, then we'd be able to play both Giroud and Theo up front and i think that would be a handfull for defenders. However, Wenger is intent on playing a lone striker no matter what and we find ourselves debating who is better than the other.

They both offer different options for us but long term, i think Theo would get more goals for us.

There are no quality midfielders available. It is impossible to get them for £28mill and £90kpw wages.

[Power n Glory]

One of the latter questions on today's Arseblog extra was 'Does the amount of Chances Theo had against Stoke, prove that he is capable of being a forward'. I found the question interesting and even Arseblog who hates Theo found the evidence for compelling and at least thought provoking. I sometimes get the feeling that the argument against him shifts from 'oh he can't hold it up' to 'oh he couldn't finish his wife's dinner never mind a chance' as per the whim of his naysayers arguments. Which is it though? If he is missing so many chances then surely the first stand point of not being able to hold it up increasingly becomes moot?...after all...he's getting the chances and himself in the positions.

If it is about him holding the ball up....why is that such an issue if he himself is getting so many chances? If it is about his lack of finishing.....do we believe Giroud's is generally any better? How many honestly believe that Theo could or would go several games WITHOUT scoring as Giroud did last season (that is a wide spread of different teams to face)? If we don't believe he would then why shouldn't we allow him the run of games up front he has never had whilst we have the options we have and why are we so against it if the alternative leaves a lot to be desired when it most matters?

Some are almost arguing the case from the position of having a world class forward amongst our selection that we don't actually have? We didn't actually buy Benzema, but I'd swear some people think we did.

The only interesting deviation is the prospect of playing Sanchez at CF...... Wenger tried this very early on in Alexis' career here and Alexis wasn't his typical effective self, yet nobody completely wrote off his prospect of being able to do it, though some have with Theo. That was inspite of Wenger shortly moving Sanchez to the left which he then went on to flourish from. This is also almost moot point though because it is clear that Wenger is choosing from Giroud and Theo in that central position not from Theo, Giroud and Sanchez and even if he does use Sanchez.....we give ourselves a void to fill from wide.

Good points again. Someone made the point about him struggling to hold up the ball against an organised defence again today despite the fact that he just did that against Stoke of all teams. We dominated possession and kept the ball in their have for the majority of the game. Not only that, we created chances as well. There is nothing more frustrating then watching us have all that possession and create next to nothing and we've seen that in many games with Giroud struggling to get a chance on goal. There are positives to take away from this game and as seen against West Brom last season, Theo can be quite a menace when he has his shooting boots on.

Sanchez as CF is another interesting one. I recall him making the right runs but not receiving the ball. Nobody wrote him off of course, despite not being effective but it does take time for players to learn and adapt. Everyone in the team for that matter. The Arseblog article today was good and surprising considering the stance on Walcott. You'll see it here again today, a few people just blot out the positives. Not sure why people are so resistant to change in Theo's case but you're right, we haven't signed Benzema. I at least want to see Wenger exhaust all possible options rather than keep with the tried and tested which is only good enough to get us 3rd 4th in the league.

[Kano]

11 goals in 11 starts if we want to talk recent games. But you're just proving my point. It explains it all.

There is nothing worse than these type of modern day stats that are crafted solely to create or destroy an argument, isolated they look fantastic but when put into wider context, or dug into a little further they fail to look so glorious. 8 of those games were when he was on the wing. Most people will not dispute that is the position he will remain be more effective in. He'll score some goals and get some assists. Nothing revelatory there. Also not forgetting that crucially, this is in a period stretching across 20 months. Almost two years! The guy is either misscontrolling the ball, missing chances or missing games through injury. Yet he appears to have this bold confidence about himself developed on threadbare activity. I used to be a big fan of Theo but an overwhelming amount of time has passed to remove any good will and patience that he will ever 'come good'.

[Power n Glory]

How were the 11 distributed though and against which opponents. That type of stat, 11 in 11, doesn't really prove much without examining the finer details. Rooney got to be the top goalscorer for England by beating up on the San Marinos and Uzbekistans.

Well, Theo isn't getting many games these days but you can at least say when he's picked he's scoring goals. It's not as if we've been playing big teams recently either. The FA Cup was our last big game he started. Community Shield against Chelsea was his biggest opponent. No goals there but an assist at least for the only goal that won us our first game against a Jose side.

But he's no slouch when it comes to contributing in big games.

Spurs - 5 goals - 5 assists
Liverpool - 1 goal - 2 assists
Chelsea - 5 goals - 2 assists
Man Utd - 2 goals
Man City - 2 goals

You don't want me to compare Giroud's record. It's not pretty.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well, Theo isn't getting many games these days but you can at least say when he's picked he's scoring goals. It's not as if we've been playing big teams recently either. The FA Cup was our last big game he started. Community Shield against Chelsea was his biggest opponent. No goals there but an assist at least for the only goal that won us our first game against a Jose side.

But he's no slouch when it comes to contributing in big games.

Spurs - 5 goals - 5 assists
Liverpool - 1 goal - 2 assists
Chelsea - 5 goals - 2 assists
Man Utd - 2 goals
Man City - 2 goals

You don't want me to compare Giroud's record. It's not pretty.

None against Newcastle though.

[Power n Glory]

There is nothing worse than these type of modern day stats that are crafted solely to create or destroy an argument, isolated they look fantastic but when put into wider context, or dug into a little further they fail to look so glorious. 8 of those games were when he was on the wing. Most people will not dispute that is the position he will remain be more effective in. He'll score some goals and get some assists. Nothing revelatory there. Also not forgetting that crucially, this is in a period stretching across 20 months. Almost two years! The guy is either misscontrolling the ball, missing chances or missing games through injury. Yet he appears to have this bold confidence about himself developed on threadbare activity. I used to be a big fan of Theo but an overwhelming amount of time has passed to remove any good will and patience that he will ever 'come good'.

Well...it kinda disproves what you've been saying about his contribution to the team recently. As if I had to reach far back into the past to find the positives.

[Kano]

Well...it kinda disproves what you've been saying about his contribution to the team recently. As if I had to reach far back into the past to find the positives.
You have - two years PnG! That's how far this record goes back. Again, read the post. That's how bad his injury record has been, a massive part of the Theo problem.

[Power n Glory]

You have - two years PnG! That's how far this record goes back. Again, read the post. That's how bad his injury record has been, a massive part of the Theo problem.

Nah, come on. He scored 7 goals for us last season on his return from injury. 1 goal this season and 2 for England if we're counting those but if not what are talking here, 3 goals before his injury? Stop it. :lol:

[I am invisible]

This is all getting a little over-analysed for me - I liked how we looked against Stoke, and based on that game, I think Walcott has made the strongest case so far this season to start (certainly the next game) as CF. See where it goes from there...

[Kano]

You brought up this magical stat to prove how prolific he is but the facts are, that is across two years. When you look at those figures against games played, the ratio remains the same as all the other seasons, when he plays out wide. He'll score goals there and get some assists but let's not be throwing around big stats like 11 in 11 that span a period of 20 months. Why are we only looking at eleven games? Well, because it makes the stat more resonant. What happens if we go back, five, ten games before this stat was constructed? Suddenly it doesn't look so good. There is no escaping his atrocious injury record, those figures I pulled up last month regarding his time spent injured speaks volumes. He may even have a great season once again but the likelihood is, he will suffer once from injures again. Whoevers fault that it isn't a concern of mine any longer as the conversation goes nowhere, it is what it is. He doesn't play enough and he disappears far too often when needed. It's a career wasted so far.

[Power n Glory]

You brought up this magical stat to prove how prolific he is but the facts are, that is across two years. When you look at those figures against games played, the ratio remains the same as all the other seasons, when he plays out wide. He'll score goals there and get some assists but let's not be throwing around big stats like 11 in 11 that span a period of 20 months. Why are we only looking at eleven games? Well, because it makes the stat more resonant. What happens if we go back, five, ten games before this stat was constructed? Suddenly it doesn't look so good. There is no escaping his atrocious injury record, those figures I pulled up last month regarding his time spent injured speaks volumes. He may even have a great season once again but the likelihood is, he will suffer once from injures again. Whoevers fault that it isn't a concern of mine any longer as the conversation goes nowhere, it is what it is. He doesn't play enough and he disappears far too often when needed. It's a career wasted so far.

FA Cup final? His injury record is not up for dispute. You were saying he hasn't contributed anything significant recently and you're just plain wrong. We could go back before his injury. 7 starts, 5 goals and 1 assist. 18 games in total 6 goals, 7 assists. :lol:

His injury record is awful. I won't dispute that one. That's just a fact. But everything else you say is just plain wrong.

[Power n Glory]

This is all getting a little over-analysed for me - I liked how we looked against Stoke, and based on that game, I think Walcott has made the strongest case so far this season to start (certainly the next game) as CF. See where it goes from there...

I wish it were that simple.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I actually don't mind seeing him play wide right but I do think it is a little farcical that we invest so much in him and then Wenger just pulls him out of the team.....especially in the absence of anyone who is really making a compelling case to keep him out of the team. I think he has done enough to start most games....regardless of where Wenger wants to play him.

[Penguin]

I don't know why you guys are turning this into Theo vs Giroud when pretty much everyone here agrees that Giroud isn't good enough. The wider issue is whether Theo is good enough to lead the line for a title challenging team, which I'm not convinced of.


Good points again. Someone made the point about him struggling to hold up the ball against an organised defence again today despite the fact that he just did that against Stoke of all teams. We dominated possession and kept the ball in their have for the majority of the game. Not only that, we created chances as well. There is nothing more frustrating then watching us have all that possession and create next to nothing and we've seen that in many games with Giroud struggling to get a chance on goal. There are positives to take away from this game and as seen against West Brom last season, Theo can be quite a menace when he has his shooting boots on.

He didn't hold up shit against Stoke, he did what he normally does which is making runs into space. Come on PnG, you know very well that this is not the Stoke of old. They try to play football under Hughes and came to the Emirates with a very attacking line up. If they were sitting deep how did Theo get through on goal two or three times, and if they were organised how did we create 30 odd chances? Even Barca don't create that many chances! They were all over the place.


One of the latter questions on today's Arseblog extra was 'Does the amount of Chances Theo had against Stoke, prove that he is capable of being a forward'. I found the question interesting and even Arseblog who hates Theo found the evidence for compelling and at least thought provoking. I sometimes get the feeling that the argument against him shifts from 'oh he can't hold it up' to 'oh he couldn't finish his wife's dinner never mind a chance' as per the whim of his naysayers arguments. Which is it though? If he is missing so many chances then surely the first stand point of not being able to hold it up increasingly becomes moot?...after all...he's getting the chances and himself in the positions.

If it is about him holding the ball up....why is that such an issue if he himself is getting so many chances? If it is about his lack of finishing.....do we believe Giroud's is generally any better? How many honestly believe that Theo could or would go several games WITHOUT scoring as Giroud did last season (that is a wide spread of different teams to face)? If we don't believe he would then why shouldn't we allow him the run of games up front he has never had whilst we have the options we have and why are we so against it if the alternative leaves a lot to be desired when it most matters?

The point is he wont get those chances in every game. Have a look at the starts he has made up front. In order it has been: West Brom, Villa, Chelsea, Newcastle, and Stoke. I'll give him credit for the West Brom game, which was arguably the best I've ever seen him play. Villa and Stoke were open games from two teams with terrible defences, so those are the games we expect Theo to do well in. But the Chelsea and Newcastle games were the ones where Theo struggled in. Newcastle put everyone behind the ball when then went down to ten men and Theo was nowhere to be seen for the rest of the match. I've already mentioned the Chelsea game which he didn't even get a shot in. Where were the chances in those games?

Those are exactly the type of matches people have been saying he'll struggle in. That's where the limitations of his overall game will show themselves up. If you're in a game like that and your striker can't receive the ball, doesn't have the skill to create a chance for himself and can't head the ball you might as well be playing with 10 men.

[Power n Glory]

Penguin, we had Stoke pinned back inside their own box for the majority of the game. We had close to 70% of possession and kept the ball in their half. The accusation against Walcott playing up front is that we can't do that when he plays. The weekend proved otherwise. He has a lot to prove but if you watch the MOTD highlights, you'd see a couple of the runs Theo made and chances were in tight spaces.

[I am invisible]

I wish it were that simple.
Well, it's that simple for me - looks like a straight choice between Walcott and Giroud, and so far our best period of football has come with Walcott as CF. I'd like to see a bit more of it, and I think he's done enough to be given another try.

Not that I have anything against Giroud - it just feels like this is the way the team is leaning right now. It feels right for how we naturally want to play.

Part of me wants to see what Alexis could do as CF, but then part of me thinks that he's already getting 25+ from where he is, so will it really make that much of a difference for us if we move him? Besides, the manager and the player himself don't really seem up for it, so I think we're only looking at a backup option there, if the other two get injured and/or suspended.

[Letters]

Which would lead me to point out another inconvenient truth you simply won't acknowledge.
Won't acknowledge?! :blink:
We went round and round debating that point so much at the tail end of last season I got dizzy.

We didn't collapse, we simply took our foot off the gas when it was job done in terms of automatic CL qualification (beyond the '2nd place trophy' there is no difference between 2nd and 3rd), when we had a Cup Final to think about and only when the title was no longer possible. I was worried we'd relaxed too much, there was a general concern about losing momentum but we picked up on the last day and smashed the Cup Final. I have no complaints about how we finished last season. Had it been the difference between 1st and 2nd then I'd agree, but it wasn't. You're either champions or you're not.
The money cheat 'excuse' hasn't been laid bare. It clearly has made it harder for anyone else to win the league with those two inflating the market and buying up formidable squads, especially at a time when we were somewhat restricted in the transfer market by the stadium move. It is a fact that since the billionaires got going only Fergie has stopped either of them winning the title. IMO without those two billionaire cheat clubs we'd have won a title or two in the last decade. As much as I respect Wenger, he's no Fergie - Fergie was able to drag an inferior squad of players to the title by sheer willpower, Wenger isn't able to do that. He needs a properly good squad to win the league and I think right now he's pretty much got one. As soon as the financial deals were in place he started spending money and it has made a difference. I do agree we needed a proper striker and unless he can work his magic with Walcott that could cost us this year. Wenger would deserve criticism for that and he should be sacked if we don't start properly challenging but after the two FA Cups and a strong finish last year I think it's only fair to judge him at the end of the season, not after 5 games and certainly not after 1.

I agree about Wenger not changing by the way, but this is the same Wenger who won all those titles. I don't buy that he suddenly developed all the flaws you mention 10 years ago, they've always been there but have been masked by his strengths - spotting talent, developing a good squad and being way ahead of the game when it came to fitness and spotting talent from overseas before they were on anyone else's radar. He still has those strengths but others have caught up, probably overtaken us, when it comes to the fitness and talent spotting. He has lost an edge but he still has more positives than negatives IMO, you don't finish top 4 every year if you're as incompetent as some on here make out. And the two cup wins have shown he can still win us trophies - something even I had started to doubt. We do need to compete for the biggest prizes but I think we now have the squad to do so.


The game has changed, the manager hasn't. There lies the problem. You have actually stated it yourself, probably without realising.

I've stated it repeatedly when others have accused Wenger of changing, so yes of course I realise it. And I agree we do need to start thinking beyond Wenger, he's not getting any younger.
But Wenger doesn't deserve all the criticism he gets on here, much less the disrespect. We repeatedly suck the cocks of here today, gone tomorrow players who kiss the badge one week and piss off the next when they get a 'better' offer elsewhere. Meanwhile Wenger who has done nothing but look out for the long term future of the club gets endless stick. Yes, he's paid well but that's because he's far more than just a football coach. He will leave us in fantastic shape financially and well placed to compete with anyone - if we get a competent replacement. I think some credit where it's due is reasonable.

[Kano]

I
FA Cup final? His injury record is not up for dispute. You were saying he hasn't contributed anything significant recently and you're just plain wrong. We could go back before his injury. 7 starts, 5 goals and 1 assist. 18 games in total 6 goals, 7 assists. :lol:

His injury record is awful. I won't dispute that one. That's just a fact. But everything else you say is just plain wrong.

And again, you keep the argument confined to small pockets of activity for Theo to bolster the argument. Because he is injured so much that is the only way anyone can discuss Theo. You have framed this as a debate about his 'recent' contribution but if you actually read back, you'll find I've been talking about his career. It only became a recent discussion when you pulled out a top-line, superficial stat. For a player that has spent so much time out injured, I'm not sure how you can separate his injuries from the argument. It's a huge part of why his career has not progressed both in terms of development and continuing to be a functioning part of our squads. I said in the summer that Wenger wouldn't buy a striker as the Theo experiment was going to now move to this current position. He is a utterly replaceable player, one that fans will easily forget about when he does limp on. I've no fear of him going to a rival because no one has shown in interest in him, which is hardly surprising. The best rumour conjured up was Liverpool. Hardly a step up in his career. So I repeat again, he'll score some goals, get some assists, maybe even have anther good season but amongst all of that he'll break down, miss a lot of games and frustrate the life out of fans on and off the pitch. The years he should've spent working on his game have been spent glueing him back together and those are vital moments he'll never be able to get back, vital time that will always haunt him.

[mastermind84]

He didn't hold up shit against Stoke, he did what he normally does which is making runs into space. Come on PnG, you know very well that this is not the Stoke of old. They try to play football under Hughes and came to the Emirates with a very attacking line up. If they were sitting deep how did Theo get through on goal two or three times, and if they were organised how did we create 30 odd chances? Even Barca don't create that many chances! They were all over the place.

The point is he wont get those chances in every game. Have a look at the starts he has made up front. In order it has been: West Brom, Villa, Chelsea, Newcastle, and Stoke. I'll give him credit for the West Brom game, which was arguably the best I've ever seen him play. Villa and Stoke were open games from two teams with terrible defences, so those are the games we expect Theo to do well in. But the Chelsea and Newcastle games were the ones where Theo struggled in. Newcastle put everyone behind the ball when then went down to ten men and Theo was nowhere to be seen for the rest of the match. I've already mentioned the Chelsea game which he didn't even get a shot in. Where were the chances in those games?

Those are exactly the type of matches people have been saying he'll struggle in. That's where the limitations of his overall game will show themselves up. If you're in a game like that and your striker can't receive the ball, doesn't have the skill to create a chance for himself and can't head the ball you might as well be playing with 10 men.
:gp:

[Niall_Quinn]

We didn't collapse, we simply took our foot off the gas when it was job done in terms of automatic CL qualification (beyond the '2nd place trophy' there is no difference between 2nd and 3rd)

ARSENE!

Is that you?

[Niall_Quinn]

...but after the two FA Cups and a strong finish last year

:haha:

Fantastic WUMing. It's blatant but it's delivered so flawlessly it works. :clap:

[Niall_Quinn]

Meanwhile Wenger who has done nothing but look out for the long term future of the club gets endless stick. Yes, he's paid well but that's because he's far more than just a football coach. He will leave us in fantastic shape financially and well placed to compete with anyone - if we get a competent replacement. I think some credit where it's due is reasonable.

I doubt you'll find anyone on here who disagrees with that bit, so what point are you trying to make? In the last 10 years he's been an excellent caretaker. But he's shown he's not up for another title push (by has lack of activity in the transfer market) so now's the time to start arranging his replacement with somebody who is. Has to start now, no point waiting until his contract is up or they'll just do that "nobody was available" thing again.

[Niall_Quinn]

So I repeat again, he'll score some goals, get some assists, maybe even have anther good season but amongst all of that he'll break down, miss a lot of games and frustrate the life out of fans on and off the pitch.

That's about right.

And realistically, once Theo is injured again, we are left with Bif. Which is why Wenger should have signed a striker this window, or the last, or the one before that. But he didn't and so here we are. It's not just penny pinching and an idealistic view on value (in a league that doesn't know the meaning of the word), it's a lack of ambition and that's exactly what you don't want in competitive sport. Of all the faults, you don't want that one.

[selassie]

Penguin, we had Stoke pinned back inside their own box for the majority of the game. We had close to 70% of possession and kept the ball in their half. The accusation against Walcott playing up front is that we can't do that when he plays. The weekend proved otherwise. He has a lot to prove but if you watch the MOTD highlights, you'd see a couple of the runs Theo made and chances were in tight spaces.

I personally think Theo is given a really rough ride TBH, even when he was producing numbers on the wing some folks were complaining!

Theo isn't perfect, he has lots of room for improvement but he's a decent enough option for us up top and the best one at the moment IMO. I don't dislike Giroud, I think he brings things to the table too but I don't see how he fits into the team long term if we harbour any ambitions of being the best in the League and a challenger in CL.

I think Wenger has something decent to work with Theo, it's an experiment but not a massive one, Theo has a lot of really decent attributes that he brings to the team, he has blistering pace, is a decent finisher with both feet and gets himself into very good positions, he is lethal on the counter attack. I think if he is given an extended run in the team he has it in him to produce decent numbers from up top.

[Niall_Quinn]

I personally think Theo is given a really rough ride TBH, even when he was producing numbers on the wing some folks were complaining!

Theo isn't perfect, he has lots of room for improvement but he's a decent enough option for us up top and the best one at the moment IMO. I don't dislike Giroud, I think he brings things to the table too but I don't see how he fits into the team long term if we harbour any ambitions of being the best in the League and a challenger in CL.

I think Wenger has something decent to work with Theo, it's an experiment but not a massive one, Theo has a lot of really decent attributes that he brings to the team, he has blistering pace, is a decent finisher with both feet and gets himself into very good positions, he is lethal on the counter attack. I think if he is given an extended run in the team he has it in him to produce decent numbers from up top.

Wenger has had an eternity to work with Theo and we're still talking about Theo's potential. What has Wenger been up to and what gives anyone the belief he;s about to spring into action and start extracting the best from this player? The track record so far is pretty dismal. And he's doing the same shit with Ox btw, talking about him being a central midfielder.

[Niall_Quinn]

And what was the Sanogo thing all about? Or Chamakh? When trying to judge Wenger's competency in these things the whole picture should be considered. He blew a transfer window waiting to get Chamakh, does anyone have the faintest clue why? Sanogo is just Bizarre. You only have to watch the guy for 5 minutes to know he has nothing. That Martial kid, watch him for 5 mins and you can see the potential bursting out of him. No need to be a top coach, just use eyes and see. When we were fucking around with Sanogo Martial had a £3.5mill price tag attached. Wenger either didn't see him at all, which says a lot about our scouting network if true, or he compared him to Sanogo and picked the postman. That's pretty worrying. People say Wenger's no fool but a fool could have spotted the difference between Sanogo and just about any player that ever lived.

[selassie]

The point is he wont get those chances in every game. Have a look at the starts he has made up front. In order it has been: West Brom, Villa, Chelsea, Newcastle, and Stoke. I'll give him credit for the West Brom game, which was arguably the best I've ever seen him play. Villa and Stoke were open games from two teams with terrible defences, so those are the games we expect Theo to do well in. But the Chelsea and Newcastle games were the ones where Theo struggled in. Newcastle put everyone behind the ball when then went down to ten men and Theo was nowhere to be seen for the rest of the match. I've already mentioned the Chelsea game which he didn't even get a shot in. Where were the chances in those games?

Those are exactly the type of matches people have been saying he'll struggle in. That's where the limitations of his overall game will show themselves up. If you're in a game like that and your striker can't receive the ball, doesn't have the skill to create a chance for himself and can't head the ball you might as well be playing with 10 men.

I think you are giving Theo a hard time TBH, you are cherry picking games he didn't score in and using it as justification to why he shouldn't lead the line. Theo's movement creates chances, it might not be as exotic as dribbling round 5 players but it's still an attribute that creates chances, he was heavily involved in the build up to Chambo's goal against Chelsea with his movement, that counts as far as I am concerned as directly being involved in the goal. Sure he didn't have a shot on target but I think he just be cut some slack because he has more than earnt a chance up there given his record in the big games, he knows how to deliver in them.

In the grand scheme of things Theo's record as a Centre Forward is very good and right now we have no other option and TBH I don't think Wenger is in any hurry to buy a "world class" centre forward, his comment post match after Stoke about "Where would Theo play?" if he bought a new forward says it all for me.

[selassie]

Wenger has had an eternity to work with Theo and we're still talking about Theo's potential. What has Wenger been up to and what gives anyone the belief he;s about to spring into action and start extracting the best from this player? The track record so far is pretty dismal. And he's doing the same shit with Ox btw, talking about him being a central midfielder.

NQ, I see where you are coming from but Wenger is now converting Theo into a centre forward. Theo was delivering on the flanks, his numbers were up there with the best wingers in Europe and have been for a good few seasons now so I wouldn't say he hasn't developed. IMO Wenger geniunely has something decent to work with here.

Oh and I do largely agree with your point about Wenger using the first team as some kind of "player development project", I don't actually want Wenger to be our manager and haven't done for a few seasons now.

[selassie]

And what was the Sanogo thing all about? Or Chamakh? When trying to judge Wenger's competency in these things the whole picture should be considered. He blew a transfer window waiting to get Chamakh, does anyone have the faintest clue why? Sanogo is just Bizarre. You only have to watch the guy for 5 minutes to know he has nothing. That Martial kid, watch him for 5 mins and you can see the potential bursting out of him. No need to be a top coach, just use eyes and see. When we were fucking around with Sanogo Martial had a £3.5mill price tag attached. Wenger either didn't see him at all, which says a lot about our scouting network if true, or he compared him to Sanogo and picked the postman. That's pretty worrying. People say Wenger's no fool but a fool could have spotted the difference between Sanogo and just about any player that ever lived.

Sanogo is a "Wenger Vanity Project" IMO.

[Letters]

:haha:

Fantastic WUMing. It's blatant but it's delivered so flawlessly it works. :clap:

Last 18 games for the top 3, since the start of the year:


Chelsea W12 D5 L1 Pts 41
City W10 D3 L5 Pts33
Arsenal W13 D3 L2 Pts 42

:tiphat:

[Niall_Quinn]

NQ, I see where you are coming from but Wenger is now converting Theo into a centre forward. Theo was delivering on the flanks, his numbers were up there with the best wingers in Europe and have been for a good few seasons now so I wouldn't say he hasn't developed. IMO Wenger geniunely has something decent to work with here.

Oh and I do largely agree with your point about Wenger using the first team as some kind of "player development project", I don't actually want Wenger to be our manager and haven't done for a few seasons now.

Isn't he converting him into a centre forward because Bif's not good enough and Wenger can't find the "value" he wants in the transfer market? Is this Wenger's Plan A or is it no plan at all and purely reactionary? Why Chamack? Why not convert Theo back then? Why Sanogo? Why not convert Theo? 50% will be the injuries which (although probably not entirely) have been beyond Wenger's control. Which begs the question can Theo ever get a run in the team without being laid-up? So far no. It'd would be great if Theo stays fit and finds his consistency and ups his involvement and finds his accuracy and all that - we'll be in good shape if that happens. Or we could have bought a striker that can already do all that and doesn't get injured all the time. The way Wenger seems to have chosen relies on a lot of things coming good that haven't come good so far. Doing it the hard way is how he likes it though.

[Niall_Quinn]

Last 18 games for the top 3, since the start of the year:


Chelsea W12 D5 L1 Pts 41
City W10 D3 L5 Pts33
Arsenal W13 D3 L2 Pts 42

:tiphat:

Another carefully crafted statistic that masks the end of the season performance - which 18 games is not, btw. That's almost HALF a season. Honest.

[Power n Glory]

I

And again, you keep the argument confined to small pockets of activity for Theo to bolster the argument. Because he is injured so much that is the only way anyone can discuss Theo. You have framed this as a debate about his 'recent' contribution but if you actually read back, you'll find I've been talking about his career. It only became a recent discussion when you pulled out a top-line, superficial stat. For a player that has spent so much time out injured, I'm not sure how you can separate his injuries from the argument. It's a huge part of why his career has not progressed both in terms of development and continuing to be a functioning part of our squads. I said in the summer that Wenger wouldn't buy a striker as the Theo experiment was going to now move to this current position. He is a utterly replaceable player, one that fans will easily forget about when he does limp on. I've no fear of him going to a rival because no one has shown in interest in him, which is hardly surprising. The best rumour conjured up was Liverpool. Hardly a step up in his career. So I repeat again, he'll score some goals, get some assists, maybe even have anther good season but amongst all of that he'll break down, miss a lot of games and frustrate the life out of fans on and off the pitch. The years he should've spent working on his game have been spent glueing him back together and those are vital moments he'll never be able to get back, vital time that will always haunt him.

Stop it.

My post.


In your mind maybe. You've quickly forgotten the season where he was our top goal scorer and top with the assists. But that's another argument and I don't think you'll see past the negatives in Theo's case regardless which explains a lot.


Your response.

We're already talking about Theo as if he's retired. Do you remember that season when he scored and assisted? Yeah that was good, I remember those good ole days. For a player in his mid-twenties that says it all.

That's how we got on to this 11 goals in 11 starts blurb. It's a stat the press are running out and I heard on MOTD. Checked it out for myself and they're not wrong.

I don't think there is much more to say. It's just shifting goal posts now.

‘Theo offers nothing to the club’ :blah: - He was our top goal scorer before his injury with a load of assists.

‘That was two years ago’ :blah: – He’s scoring goals since being back from injury. 7 goals last season and he only started 7 games. A goal last weekend.

‘That’s a small pocket of activity’ :blah: - Well he hasn’t been starting many games since being out but the last time he had a full season he was top goal scorer. :doh:


The debate stems from this sort of comment


We're still waiting ten years later to see if he'll ever have anything to offer.

You answer your own question when you now say he'll get goals and assists. :doh:

[Letters]

Not really, it's a long, sustained run at the business end of the season.
We dropped points in 5 out of 18 games, and several of those were after the title had already gone and automatic CL qualification was assured.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's the fact people can see what Theo has to offer that causes the frustration. The inconsistency, and surely nobody would deny that, is infuriating. He's one of, if not the most senior player in the squad. He should be well established as a first team player and one of the reliable core we depend on through the good and bad. But nobody in truth could claim that's the case. If he's who we are going with as our main striker then he'll need to show a lot more and on a regular basis. Hot Theo/ Cold Theo just gives us Bif all over again doesn't it? In other words, not good enough to mount a title challenge.

I don't know why we are still fucking around trying to extract extra from tier 2 players when we have the money now to compete properly. It's a pain in the Arsenal.

[Niall_Quinn]

Not really, it's a long, sustained run at the business end of the season.
We dropped points in 5 out of 18 games, and several of those were after the title had already gone and automatic CL qualification was assured.

Ridiculous Letters. The dropped points came at the sharp end of the season when the final placings were being decided. The money excuse states we can't compete with the dopers. We had it in our hands to bust that excuse wide open and finish above the gypos. They won all their games, we collapsed. Those are the facts stated in the record book. You can look those facts up on the BBC web site if you want. So we didn't finish above the gypos - why? Well because there's no difference between 2nd and 3rd apparently. Which is not even the point. The point was to dispel the supposed reality of us not being able to compete with dopers. Well we were competing with them and we could have done them too. But we "understandably" took our foot off the gas because the chavs had won the title. Those poor deluded gypos didn't take their foot off the gas and they went perfect in the closing games. Coincidentally, they have carried that belief and momentum through to a new season. Also coincidentally we carried our shitty finish through to the opening games of this season. BUT - we won a cup so that means nothing that happens in the PL is relevant. I bet Wigan were telling themselves the same after their cup win.

[Niall_Quinn]

Btw - I don't disagree with you in some respects. I believe we did take our foot off the gas when the CL pacing was secured and I believe Wenger also thinks there's no difference between 2nd and 3rd place. Which is why he needs to go.

[Letters]

The really frustrating thing about him is there have been flashes of real quality from Theo, some tantalizing hints that he could be the real deal.
But yes, the inconsistency is maddening, I don't know if it's the injuries or whether he's not as good as we all hoped he'd be (maybe in part because of the injuries).
He missed a load on Saturday but the goal, when it came, was terrific. If he could just get consistent...

[Power n Glory]

I personally think Theo is given a really rough ride TBH, even when he was producing numbers on the wing some folks were complaining!

Theo isn't perfect, he has lots of room for improvement but he's a decent enough option for us up top and the best one at the moment IMO. I don't dislike Giroud, I think he brings things to the table too but I don't see how he fits into the team long term if we harbour any ambitions of being the best in the League and a challenger in CL.

I think Wenger has something decent to work with Theo, it's an experiment but not a massive one, Theo has a lot of really decent attributes that he brings to the team, he has blistering pace, is a decent finisher with both feet and gets himself into very good positions, he is lethal on the counter attack. I think if he is given an extended run in the team he has it in him to produce decent numbers from up top.

A real rough ride and I think I’ve heard it all in recent months. It’s comical. So many holes in peoples arguments and it’s just a personal preference thing. He has a lot to prove up front but I’ve seen people pine for Welbeck to play up front and Podolski when he was here even though they’re performances were far worse than Theo’s. I don’t mean to shit all over other players because you need time to adjust up front but Theo has been more impactful with less game time there. And as said, even when on the wing he gets a lot of hate and those same people are now saying he should be played there despite saying he offers nothing at all.

[Injury Time]

The really frustrating thing about him is there have been flashes of real quality from Theo, some tantalizing hints that he could be the real deal.
But yes, the inconsistency is maddening, I don't know if it's the injuries or whether he's not as good as we all hoped he'd be (maybe in part because of the injuries).
He missed a load on Saturday but the goal, when it came, was terrific. If he could just get consistent...
When he doesn't have to think about it he has the instinct to score, running on to the ball players / or keeper running at him not so bad (almost Henry-esk), but if he's stopped and has a chance to think where there is more than one option it seems to go out the window (more Heskey then Henry). I guess we hope that he gets an injury free run where the later proves to just be rustiness :pray:.

[Kano]

Not really, it's a long, sustained run at the business end of the season.
We dropped points in 5 out of 18 games, and several of those were after the title had already gone and automatic CL qualification was assured.

I admire your work at the moment and what it's doing for this place but it's hard to ignore this sort of short mindedness. Invented stance or not. I've posted a few times how superficial this stat really is, the type of teams it was against and how our inability over the past two seasons against the top 8 is the real issue. Look at who those victories were against in the second half of last season and then look at who will failed against in the second half of the season. The same pattern as the first half. We can slice a season up anyway we want to pick out the stats we need but across the season, you will see in 13/14 and 14/15, against the better teams in the league we consistently struggled. Why that will change now is anyone's guess.

[Letters]

Btw - I don't disagree with you in some respects. I believe we did take our foot off the gas when the CL pacing was secured and I believe Wenger also thinks there's no difference between 2nd and 3rd place. Which is why he needs to go.

You always miss out the key part. It wasn't when CL football was secured we took our foot off the gas, it was when the title had gone.

We lost on the first day of the year vs Southampton, the 18 games I posted the stats for above were the games after that (I didn't deliberately leave out that loss to skew the stats by the way, I just thought the start of the year was a decent place to start)


The 14 results after that were P14 W12 D1 L1. You can't really argue with those results. The last of those games was the win at Hull, after that Chelsea played and their result wrapped up the title for them. It was only after that we 'collapsed', if that's really what you want to call it, failing to win the next 3 games.


Now, you could argue we collapsed because top 4 was assured but if we were only interested in top 4 we really didn't need to push quite as hard as we did in those 14 games. We could have coasted way before then and still got into the top 4 fairly comfortably.

There is clearly a massive difference between 1st and 2nd. Because of the CL Qualification there's a big difference between 4th and 5th.
But 2nd to 4th? There's some difference, obviously, but I think you're over-stating it to make a point which doesn't really stack up.

[selassie]

Isn't he converting him into a centre forward because Bif's not good enough and Wenger can't find the "value" he wants in the transfer market? Is this Wenger's Plan A or is it no plan at all and purely reactionary? Why Chamack? Why not convert Theo back then? Why Sanogo? Why not convert Theo? 50% will be the injuries which (although probably not entirely) have been beyond Wenger's control. Which begs the question can Theo ever get a run in the team without being laid-up? So far no. It'd would be great if Theo stays fit and finds his consistency and ups his involvement and finds his accuracy and all that - we'll be in good shape if that happens. Or we could have bought a striker that can already do all that and doesn't get injured all the time. The way Wenger seems to have chosen relies on a lot of things coming good that haven't come good so far. Doing it the hard way is how he likes it though.

Yeah I definitely think the driver to converting Theo is BIF not being good enough and Wenger messing about in the market, we all know what Wenger is like, if he can't find a player that matches his "Year 2000 Transfer valuations" then he won't buy them irrespective of who they are.

I do agree with your point though, Wenger is a gambler and he gambles unnecessarily.

[Niall_Quinn]

You always miss out the key part. It wasn't when CL football was secured we took our foot off the gas, it was when the title had gone.

We lost on the first day of the year vs Southampton, the 18 games I posted the stats for above were the games after that (I didn't deliberately leave out that loss to skew the stats by the way, I just thought the start of the year was a decent place to start)


The 14 results after that were P14 W12 D1 L1. You can't really argue with those results. The last of those games was the win at Hull, after that Chelsea played and their result wrapped up the title for them. It was only after that we 'collapsed', if that's really what you want to call it, failing to win the next 3 games.


Now, you could argue we collapsed because top 4 was assured but if we were only interested in top 4 we really didn't need to push quite as hard as we did in those 14 games. We could have coasted way before then and still got into the top 4 fairly comfortably.

There is clearly a massive difference between 1st and 2nd. Because of the CL Qualification there's a big difference between 4th and 5th.
But 2nd to 4th? There's some difference, obviously, but I think you're over-stating it to make a point which doesn't really stack up.

So in effect the gypos were just showing off by winning their last 5 and securing the runners-up spot when it made no difference where they finished because the chavs had won the title? Or was it their money that made them value finishing as highly as possible? Or did their money prevent them taking their foot off the gas? Just goes to prove your point. Dopers. We can't compete with them because we were forced to take our foot off the gas when the chavs secured the title. I bet the gypos bribed somebody using their money so they could carry on with the pedal firmly pressed down. We can't compete against that. In a way, we were top last year if you discount the dopers who we can't compete against because it's "understandable" for us not to try.

[Globalgunner]

if it wasnt for those pesky Billionaire dopers and that nasty old Scotsman we would be pissing this league and Wenger would be rightly acknowledged as the greatest man since Albert Einstein

[Penguin]

I think you are giving Theo a hard time TBH, you are cherry picking games he didn't score in and using it as justification to why he shouldn't lead the line. Theo's movement creates chances, it might not be as exotic as dribbling round 5 players but it's still an attribute that creates chances, he was heavily involved in the build up to Chambo's goal against Chelsea with his movement, that counts as far as I am concerned as directly being involved in the goal. Sure he didn't have a shot on target but I think he just be cut some slack because he has more than earnt a chance up there given his record in the big games, he knows how to deliver in them.

In the grand scheme of things Theo's record as a Centre Forward is very good and right now we have no other option and TBH I don't think Wenger is in any hurry to buy a "world class" centre forward, his comment post match after Stoke about "Where would Theo play?" if he bought a new forward says it all for me.

He has only started five games up front since he came back from his injury and I've picked the two that he was ineffective in. That's hardly cherry picking, and it's no coincidence that those were the matches that he had to deal with the very tactics that people are saying he'd struggle against.

Maybe I am being harsh on him, but the best forwards tend to have more about them rather than relying on one attribute. Players like Aguero and RvP have good movement too, but in those tight games where they don't get the space they need in the danger areas, they both have the tools to do the damage in another way. Whether it's with a bit of skill, a clever turn in the box, dropping a little bit deeper and testing the keeper from long range, they can do it all. I don't see that in Theo at all.

A lot of the time we don't even have the option to pass it to his feet either because he doesn't like playing with his back to goal, and that just ends up making it even harder to find him or to get into good positions. No wonder he vanished at Newcastle; there was no space behind their defence, we couldn't pass it to his feet, and he can't head the ball. It makes a big difference to have someone to play off through the middle to bring your midfielders closer to the goal, especially for a team like ours that criminally under-use the wings.

Right now I agree with you, give Theo a run. But is he a good enough main CF to win us the league? Not sure about that. He'd do well to hit even half the level of some of his predecessors. Back to the drawing board next summer.



PS - I think you're being very generous to Theo if you think he deserves even part of the credit for the goal against Chelsea. That was all Ox ;)

[Özim]

I don't really get the Walcott debate, he's had 10 years at the best possible club for a youngster, since Wenger has turned us into a glorified youth scheme and yet to date he's still not become the player he was supposed to have been or in reality delivered much on the pitch.

We've heard what he could become for years and yet at the age of 26 he's still nowhere near what that was suppose to be, how long does a player need to become top class on the pitch?

It seems to be very few people seem convinced about his ability, RVP to me was clearly massively talented from a young age, you could see by the way he played he had a special talent, however Walcott IMO has never shown that kind of ability, he's effective against tired defence or when his pace let's him get behind defences (seems pretty rare), but you can't really argue his conversion rate overall is pretty poor.

As for these flashes of brilliance, they happen so seldomly that you'd have to put it down more to chance than ability IMO. We've heard the Henry comparisons for years, but let's be honest he's not in the same league (who is) and is never going to score anywhere near as many or be as important to us as Henry was, Henry was intelligent on the ball, had pace, could finish from anywhere and had artistic flair, whereas Walcott really only has pace on his side, his finishing if you ask me is very hit and miss as highlighted by his career stats.

Anywa IMO he's had plenty of opportunities at this club and we really now should have been looking for someone proven who is ready to deliver and not waiting on players in the hope they one day do.

[Power n Glory]

He has only started five games up front since he came back from his injury and I've picked the two that he was ineffective in. That's hardly cherry picking, and it's no coincidence that those were the matches that he had to deal with the very tactics that people are saying he'd struggle against.

Maybe I am being harsh on him, but the best forwards tend to have more about them rather than relying on one attribute. Players like Aguero and RvP have good movement too, but in those tight games where they don't get the space they need in the danger areas, they both have the tools to do the damage in another way. Whether it's with a bit of skill, a clever turn in the box, dropping a little bit deeper and testing the keeper from long range, they can do it all. I don't see that in Theo at all.

A lot of the time we don't even have the option to pass it to his feet either because he doesn't like playing with his back to goal, and that just ends up making it even harder to find him or to get into good positions. No wonder he vanished at Newcastle; there was no space behind their defence, we couldn't pass it to his feet, and he can't head the ball. It makes a big difference to have someone to play off through the middle to bring your midfielders closer to the goal, especially for a team like ours that criminally under-use the wings.

Right now I agree with you, give Theo a run. But is he a good enough main CF to win us the league? Not sure about that. He'd do well to hit even half the level of some of his predecessors. Back to the drawing board next summer.



PS - I think you're being very generous to Theo if you think he deserves even part of the credit for the goal against Chelsea. That was all Ox ;)

But isn't this a problem we have with Giroud as well? See the West Ham game. We tried to adopt the same concept with Chamakh where we're bouncing passes off him like a wall to bring in our midfield players. That didn't work either. It's a flawed gameplan and why I have doubts about signing a Costa, Cavani or Benzema if we were still to approach games like this. They'd be an upgrade but they don't play in teams that play this style, they don't have that explosive burst or agility so I often wonder if they'd have the same problems. They're too big and bulky. I can only see an RVP, Tevez, Aguero or Suarez type that would suit our play.

We can't get any of those so the next solution is to develop a player. If we won't use Sanchez in that role, then at least give Theo a shot and sharpen him up. You may get the games like Newcastle or Chelsea this season but you may also get the other Newcastle results where he scores a hat trick or the West Brom game. It's better than nothing and as Wenger said himself....


“I know Stoke are a compact, organised team in their own half and Theo could find little pockets to get in their and maybe that you get two or three chances to counter attack at home so maybe you can use that,”

And that's how they played. It was compact and tight but we created chances and it's encouraging to hear that he's seeing things differently or trying something new. Theo was finding the little pockets of space and that's something we won't get from a striker like Giroud. Giroud's role is to hold the ball up so players like Ramsey, Ozil, Cazorla and Wilshere find the small pockets of space. But when those guys are firing blanks or looking for Giroud to find space we get this tippy tappy back and forth. We can't really sacrifice a striker just in hope that players like Ozil and co will find their shooting boots. Even Ramsey is getting deployed on the right simply because Wenger wants him find space to get a shooting opportunity. He makes smart runs but there has to be another way.

[Letters]

So in effect the gypos were just showing off by winning their last 5 and securing the runners-up spot when it made no difference where they finished because the chavs had won the title?
Not showing off but what did they achieve by doing it? They finished 2nd rather than 3rd. :partytime:
Their good finish didn't win them the title any more than we won it, they qualified automatically for the CL just like we did.
Finishing 2nd is better than finishing 3rd but only marginally, it's not the difference between 1st and 2nd which is obviously huge.
City didn't have a "Yes, we finished 2nd!" open top bus parade.


Or was it their money that made them value finishing as highly as possible? Or did their money prevent them taking their foot off the gas?
Well, the money has bought them a very good squad which is clearly going to win a lot of games. They had nothing to play for but they had nothing to distract them either, we had the FA Cup final - players are clearly not going to want to get injured for that and that may distract them somewhat. With the title no longer possible, I can understand that. If the title was still on the table then I agree, that's not acceptable but there was a clear difference between our results before the title was wrapped up by Chelsea and after. We did enough to qualify automatically and win the Cup.
I regard 3rd and the FA Cup as a relatively successful season, I don't think I'd regard 2nd and the FA Cup hugely differently.

[selassie]

He has only started five games up front since he came back from his injury and I've picked the two that he was ineffective in. That's hardly cherry picking, and it's no coincidence that those were the matches that he had to deal with the very tactics that people are saying he'd struggle against.

Maybe I am being harsh on him, but the best forwards tend to have more about them rather than relying on one attribute. Players like Aguero and RvP have good movement too, but in those tight games where they don't get the space they need in the danger areas, they both have the tools to do the damage in another way. Whether it's with a bit of skill, a clever turn in the box, dropping a little bit deeper and testing the keeper from long range, they can do it all. I don't see that in Theo at all.

A lot of the time we don't even have the option to pass it to his feet either because he doesn't like playing with his back to goal, and that just ends up making it even harder to find him or to get into good positions. No wonder he vanished at Newcastle; there was no space behind their defence, we couldn't pass it to his feet, and he can't head the ball. It makes a big difference to have someone to play off through the middle to bring your midfielders closer to the goal, especially for a team like ours that criminally under-use the wings.

Right now I agree with you, give Theo a run. But is he a good enough main CF to win us the league? Not sure about that. He'd do well to hit even half the level of some of his predecessors. Back to the drawing board next summer.



PS - I think you're being very generous to Theo if you think he deserves even part of the credit for the goal against Chelsea. That was all Ox ;)

Fair enough, I totally agree with you that there are big question marks over whether Theo is a good enough main CF to win us the league but I still think he's the best candidate we have.

If we had a manager who was more decisive in his recruitment then we wouldn't even be having this debate ;)

[Niall_Quinn]

Not showing off but what did they achieve by doing it? They finished 2nd rather than 3rd. :partytime:
Their good finish didn't win them the title any more than we won it, they qualified automatically for the CL just like we did.
Finishing 2nd is better than finishing 3rd but only marginally, it's not the difference between 1st and 2nd which is obviously huge.
City didn't have a "Yes, we finished 2nd!" open top bus parade.


Well, the money has bought them a very good squad which is clearly going to win a lot of games. They had nothing to play for but they had nothing to distract them either, we had the FA Cup final - players are clearly not going to want to get injured for that and that may distract them somewhat. With the title no longer possible, I can understand that. If the title was still on the table then I agree, that's not acceptable but there was a clear difference between our results before the title was wrapped up by Chelsea and after. We did enough to qualify automatically and win the Cup.
I regard 3rd and the FA Cup as a relatively successful season, I don't think I'd regard 2nd and the FA Cup hugely differently.

Ty just phoned and asked me to tell you to dial it back a bit.

[Penguin]

But isn't this a problem we have with Giroud as well? See the West Ham game. We tried to adopt the same concept with Chamakh where we're bouncing passes off him like a wall to bring in our midfield players. That didn't work either. It's a flawed gameplan and why I have doubts about signing a Costa, Cavani or Benzema if we were still to approach games like this. They'd be an upgrade but they don't play in teams that play this style, they don't have that explosive burst or agility so I often wonder if they'd have the same problems. They're too big and bulky. I can only see an RVP, Tevez, Aguero or Suarez type that would suit our play.

I would say that's a problem of Giroud not being good enough rather than the gameplan being wrong. The reason why we get this tippy tappy back and forth is because that's the only way Giroud knows how to play. There's no variety to his play, he'll always knock it back to the closest midfielder with his first touch. If he mixed it up a bit by taking a touch and turning a defender he would automatically get more room because the defenders would be scared of that. But he doesn't so they get as tight as they want to him.

That takes me back to my second paragraph above. Basically we need a more complete striker rather than specialists with big weaknesses or gaps in their skill-sets.


We can't get any of those so the next solution is to develop a player. If we won't use Sanchez in that role, then at least give Theo a shot and sharpen him up. You may get the games like Newcastle or Chelsea this season but you may also get the other Newcastle results where he scores a hat trick or the West Brom game. It's better than nothing and as Wenger said himself....

And that's how they played. It was compact and tight but we created chances and it's encouraging to hear that he's seeing things differently or trying something new. Theo was finding the little pockets of space and that's something we won't get from a striker like Giroud. Giroud's role is to hold the ball up so players like Ramsey, Ozil, Cazorla and Wilshere find the small pockets of space. But when those guys are firing blanks or looking for Giroud to find space we get this tippy tappy back and forth. We can't really sacrifice a striker just in hope that players like Ozil and co will find their shooting boots. Even Ramsey is getting deployed on the right simply because Wenger wants him find space to get a shooting opportunity. He makes smart runs but there has to be another way.

True. I do actually want to see Theo get a run in the team. He's a breath of fresh air after having to watch Giroud for so long.

[Power n Glory]

I would say that's a problem of Giroud not being good enough rather than the gameplan being wrong. The reason why we get this tippy tappy back and forth is because that's the only way Giroud knows how to play. There's no variety to his play, he'll always knock it back to the closest midfielder with his first touch. If he mixed it up a bit by taking a touch and turning a defender he would automatically get more room because the defenders would be scared of that. But he doesn't so they get as tight as they want to him.

That takes me back to my second paragraph above. Basically we need a more complete striker rather than specialists with big weaknesses or gaps in their skill-sets.



True. I do actually want to see Theo get a run in the team. He's a breath of fresh air after having to watch Giroud for so long.

Totally agree on Giroud's limitations and it can be so frustrating to watch. It's why the stat about him scoring on his first touch is interesting and highlights how much he depends on service. You're also right about him knocking the ball back with his first touch instead of trying to turn a man and it does allow defenders to close him down and get tight with ease. He acts more like a screen/blocker for our smaller midfielders rather than a striker. We need someone better.

But we also need variety in our play. It's been said before Giroud arrived; we won't always be able to pass the ball into the back of the net. We've had games where Henry struggled as the loan striker, Ade, RVP....on occasions they'd sometimes come up with the magic but it won't always happen. The best run we had in CL was when we weren't trying to pulverize our opponents with impressive possession stats. We sat back, soaked up the pressure and just countered. We returned to that against City last season and it would be good to see more of that approach from other teams. Or at least if we're trying to dominate possession in our opponents half we at least press hard to win the ball back like that time we played Chelsea and put 4 or 5 pass them. I think we need to come away from this one side fits all model. That's down to the manager to fix.