Why the Zagreb game tells us all we need to know about Wenger

[IBK]

I used to be on here lots - before the groundhog day that is Arsenal made me stop caring and do better things. There few things left to say about the state of our team and our manager, but it strikes me that 3 things don't tend to be mentioned about Wenger's approach - that tonight's game, and result epitomises.

1. Wenger is not getting the best out of the talent that he has. I'll deal with his players' attitude below, but even allowing for this, its clear that Wenger has little or no idea how to maximise his players' abilities. His tactical shortcomings have been debated endlessly, and its obvious that by not being able to direct matches tactically he is leaving his players short. What is rarely mentioned is the scandal that he simply does not know his best team. The line up tonight had all the hallmarks of an experiment rather than a team intended to ensure a win, and we have seen this time and time again. Let's remember that this is a manager who has bought no new outfield players - and who, since his panic buying at the start of the 2013/14 season has been sparing with new first team introductions to say the least. His significant new signings - Ozil and Alexis - have played more than enough for Wenger to know where their most effective positions are - as have his 'breakthrough' players. What is longevity as a manager supposed to bring but consistency and an intimate knowledge of how his team should work. I don't think the manager has any clear understanding of what blend brings out the best in his players. That he does not have a settled, go to, first 11 in these circumstances is little short of nonsensical. The result - its very difficult to look at a single player in this season's team bar maybe Bellerin who is playing anywhere near to his true potential.

2. Wenger does not understand what it means to control a game. I think that that the possession game that we have all, mostly, grown to despise is down to a misguided belief that this is what controlling a game is. It isn't. The team that sits back and lets us blow ourselves out. That is content to have men behind the ball and wait for us to misplace the final pass. That is ready to counter attack and punish Arsenal when we desperately seek a breakthrough. That team controls the game, and even inferior teams often do so for much of the game - notwithstanding that they might lose to the odd individual or collective moment of brilliance from us. Let's be honest - when is the last time we 'owned' a game. Liverpool at home last season? The FA Cup final against a hopelessly naive Villa? Wenger's apparent misunderstanding that teams that control games do so via shifts in gear; controlling tempo; preventing the opposition from playing their own game combined with a seeming obsession with possession football seems bewilderingly naive.

3. It is self evident that neither manager nor players have any real hunger. His pre-match emphasis on that fact that we qualified last year having lost our first CL game almost made me weep. His bringing in of second choice players in a number of positions backed up this complete absence of any real focus. That we lost to a European minnow; that AOC was at fault for the first goal by not tracking back; that we fell into disarray and never looked like winning after the first 15 minutes is the inevitable result of an attitude that regards merely qualifying from the group; merely finishing top 4 in the league as a job done.

To say that our team is misguided; misfiring and uninspiring is an understatement.

[Power n Glory]

:bow: The legend returns to GW!

[IBK]

:bow: The legend returns to GW!

:tiphat:

[Power n Glory]

I said to colleague this afternoon that anything is possible with us. We should win but because our manager still doesn't know his best 11, we could be in for some trouble. Zagreb have a long undefeated run from what I heard and we can't take them lightly. But we did and nothing surprises me with this team or manager.

Great point about controlling the game. I've said a couple times we need to do away with this possession obsession so totally agree.

[IBK]

I said to colleague this afternoon that anything is possible with us. We should win but because our manager still doesn't know his best 11, we could be in for some trouble. Zagreb have a long undefeated run from what I heard and we can't take them lightly. But we did and nothing surprises me with this team or manager.

Great point about controlling the game. I've said a couple times we need to do away with this possession obsession so totally agree.

Wenger has long since treated this team like his personal experiment. And he is allowed to because no-one holds him to account, and he is immune even to a press that has now largely seen though his Emperor's New Clothes because he effectively controls our club.

Does anyone else find it extraordinary that there were those questioning whether Mourinho's job was secure after Chelsea's poor Premiership start - despite him being fresh EPL winner, and having a CV better than any other manager, possibly ever, yet there have been few if any such questions about Wenger despite perennial mediocrity compared to the top teams - the assumption being that he will chose himself when he leaves.

Actually, its not extraordinary so much as very sad. The reason why Wenger's position is not questioned is that the world knows, and expects that our level is that of an also ran - so when league or CL performance confirms this it causes barely a ripple.

[Özim]

Wenger is tactially naive, cheap and cannot motivate players, the lack of hunger and application from a team who have never won the CL is shocking to be honest, 18 years of failure in the CL tells you all you need to know about Wenger, he never learns a thing.

Spot on about controlling, harmless passing doesn't constitue controlling a game. S*ck of the sight of him and his teams to be honest, year after year we have to put up with his incompetence in the transfer market and on the pitch, when will it all end?

[Özim]

Wenger has long since treated this team like his personal experiment. And he is allowed to because no-one holds him to account, and he is immune even to a press that has now largely seen though his Emperor's New Clothes because he effectively controls our club.

Does anyone else find it extraordinary that there were those questioning whether Mourinho's job was secure after Chelsea's poor Premiership start - despite him being fresh EPL winner, and having a CV better than any other manager, possibly ever, yet there have been few if any such questions about Wenger despite perennial mediocrity compared to the top teams - the assumption being that he will chose himself when he leaves.

Actually, its not extraordinary so much as very sad. The reason why Wenger's position is not questioned is that the world knows, and expects that our level is that of an also ran - so when league or CL performance confirms this it causes barely a ripple.

Very true, he has the easiest job on football, immunity from the sack and criticism from his bosses, he gets paid a shedload to deliver 4th place, tells you all you need to know about this club, it's got a losers mentality, it's happy with sitting 4th and getting to the last 16 in the CL every year, we've heard all the excuses under the sun for years now, now it's clear the money is there, there's no more excuses and Wenger is being shown up for what he really is and 2nd tier manager.

[Kano]

You just wait til Letters gets home and sees this.

[IBK]

Very true, he has the easiest job on football, immunity from the sack and criticism from his bosses, he gets paid a shedload to deliver 4th place, tells you all you need to know about this club, it's got a losers mentality, it's happy with sitting 4th and getting to the last 16 in the CL every year, we've heard all the excuses under the sun for years now, now it's clear the money is there, there's no more excuses and Wenger is being shown up for what he really is and 2nd tier manager.

The money is available. What requires explanation is that Wenger is happy to, in fact seemingly obsessed with taking risks with a lack of proper investment in players, yet is apparently so risk averse when it comes to spending money. This can only be down to one thing - supreme arrogance in the face of overwhelming evidence. Wenger is like a flash punter in a casino - losing heavily at the roulette table, yet continuing to put his money oon the same number - convinced that under his system, his win will somehow come. Meanwhile all the hangers on have long since lost interest and are following more successful punters at other tables.

[Kano]

Does anyone else find it extraordinary that there were those questioning whether Mourinho's job was secure after Chelsea's poor Premiership start - despite him being fresh EPL winner, and having a CV better than any other manager...
Just the press being the press. But there was always the hope they could pull it off and rid our league of the evil Mourinho warlord, allowing him to go and infect some other league. Hopefully they'll get another chance soon.

[IBK]

You just wait til Letters gets home and sees this.

Funny, I used to sympathise with some of Letters' sentiment. But the simple, unavoidable fact is that there will be no further progress in any Wenger team. I'm no different from those fans who despite all the evidence over several years still held out a small hope that Wenger could build on a successful second half of the season last time; a second FA Cup, a Community Shield win. But it is blindingly obvious that the frailties and fundamental weaknesses of this team are and will continue to be the same as all of Wenger's other teams since the glory days. Nothing has, or will change, and the price many of us have paid for keeping the faith even in some small way has been to cease caring about Wenger's teams. There is only so long you can see the same thing happening over and over again until something has to give....

[Kano]

Funny, I used to sympathise with some of Letters' sentiment. But the simple, unavoidable fact is that there will be no further progress in any Wenger team. I'm no different from those fans who despite all the evidence over several years still held out a small hope that Wenger could build on a successful second half of the season last time; a second FA Cup, a Community Shield win. But it is blindingly obvious that the frailties and fundamental weaknesses of this team are and will continue to be the same as all of Wenger's other teams since the glory days. Nothing has, or will change, and the price many of us have paid for keeping the faith even in some small way has been to cease caring about Wenger's teams. There is only so long you can see the same thing happening over and over again until something has to give....

I fear for Letters. I hope there's a helpline somewhere that can help him when he can no longer escape the brutal truth.

[Niall_Quinn]

The money is available. What requires explanation is that Wenger is happy to, in fact seemingly obsessed with taking risks with a lack of proper investment in players, yet is apparently so risk averse when it comes to spending money. This can only be down to one thing - supreme arrogance in the face of overwhelming evidence. Wenger is like a flash punter in a casino - losing heavily at the roulette table, yet continuing to put his money oon the same number - convinced that under his system, his win will somehow come. Meanwhile all the hangers on have long since lost interest and are following more successful punters at other tables.

What he said...

[Letters]

You just wait til Letters gets home and sees this.

Oh hai :wave:

It's actually a good thread. I might not agree with it (I've only skimmed it tbh) but it seems relatively and unusually WUM-free, it's the sort of thread this place should be about.

[Maestro]

I fear for Letters. I hope there's a helpline somewhere that can help him when he can no longer escape the brutal truth.

plenty


http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org

[Kano]

Oh hai :wave:

It's actually a good thread. I might not agree with it (I've only skimmed it tbh) but it seems relatively and unusually WUM-free, it's the sort of thread this place should be about.
Stop your crusade Letters, you WUM just as much as the next guy. It's the one thing that has kept this place teetering along. Just accept and embrace you are just as flawed as everyone else. Without the humour this place would be Arsenal Mania or Goonersworld and who the hell wants that?

[Niall_Quinn]

So for an Arsenal team to step out in the CL and perform like that in a game where we were the dopers with all the resources, £40 mill players, £30mill players, huge amounts of cash, top training facilities, top medical facilities, a nice big squad packed with internationals - but not actually turn up, it's bad, isn't it? But it's not the first time it has happened. Momentum killed and playing catch-up in the CL - tick. Momentum and morale killed for a big upcoming PL fixture - tick. Owners of a new and unwanted record, Zagreb's first English scalp - tick (how many of these records have we collected now?)

Is Ozil that bad? Alexis? Isn't Ox one of the bright young up-and-coming English starlets? Giroud, the guy who is apparently so good we just can't find the quality to replace or even support him, Walcott, England's perpetual world beater in waiting, and so on. As is so often the case, what would the result have been had anyone bar Wenger been managing the team last night?

How is he getting away with this? The astonishing lack of respect for opponents, the lack of preparation, the lack of motivation, the lack of tactics, the incredibly bizarre team selections, the endless stream of excuses. Always the next match, always the next season - wait and see, all these repetitive mistakes, the arrogance, the incompetence, it will all be transformed and finally the man who keeps on doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same sub-standard result - he'll deliver! Just wait, just wait.

How does he get away with it?

[selassie]

I used to be on here lots - before the groundhog day that is Arsenal made me stop caring and do better things. There few things left to say about the state of our team and our manager, but it strikes me that 3 things don't tend to be mentioned about Wenger's approach - that tonight's game, and result epitomises.

1. Wenger is not getting the best out of the talent that he has. I'll deal with his players' attitude below, but even allowing for this, its clear that Wenger has little or no idea how to maximise his players' abilities. His tactical shortcomings have been debated endlessly, and its obvious that by not being able to direct matches tactically he is leaving his players short. What is rarely mentioned is the scandal that he simply does not know his best team. The line up tonight had all the hallmarks of an experiment rather than a team intended to ensure a win, and we have seen this time and time again. Let's remember that this is a manager who has bought no new outfield players - and who, since his panic buying at the start of the 2013/14 season has been sparing with new first team introductions to say the least. His significant new signings - Ozil and Alexis - have played more than enough for Wenger to know where their most effective positions are - as have his 'breakthrough' players. What is longevity as a manager supposed to bring but consistency and an intimate knowledge of how his team should work. I don't think the manager has any clear understanding of what blend brings out the best in his players. That he does not have a settled, go to, first 11 in these circumstances is little short of nonsensical. The result - its very difficult to look at a single player in this season's team bar maybe Bellerin who is playing anywhere near to his true potential.

2. Wenger does not understand what it means to control a game. I think that that the possession game that we have all, mostly, grown to despise is down to a misguided belief that this is what controlling a game is. It isn't. The team that sits back and lets us blow ourselves out. That is content to have men behind the ball and wait for us to misplace the final pass. That is ready to counter attack and punish Arsenal when we desperately seek a breakthrough. That team controls the game, and even inferior teams often do so for much of the game - notwithstanding that they might lose to the odd individual or collective moment of brilliance from us. Let's be honest - when is the last time we 'owned' a game. Liverpool at home last season? The FA Cup final against a hopelessly naive Villa? Wenger's apparent misunderstanding that teams that control games do so via shifts in gear; controlling tempo; preventing the opposition from playing their own game combined with a seeming obsession with possession football seems bewilderingly naive.

3. It is self evident that neither manager nor players have any real hunger. His pre-match emphasis on that fact that we qualified last year having lost our first CL game almost made me weep. His bringing in of second choice players in a number of positions backed up this complete absence of any real focus. That we lost to a European minnow; that AOC was at fault for the first goal by not tracking back; that we fell into disarray and never looked like winning after the first 15 minutes is the inevitable result of an attitude that regards merely qualifying from the group; merely finishing top 4 in the league as a job done.

To say that our team is misguided; misfiring and uninspiring is an understatement.

:gp:

[topgun]

I used to be on here lots - before the groundhog day that is Arsenal made me stop caring and do better things. There few things left to say about the state of our team and our manager, but it strikes me that 3 things don't tend to be mentioned about Wenger's approach - that tonight's game, and result epitomises.

1. Wenger is not getting the best out of the talent that he has. I'll deal with his players' attitude below, but even allowing for this, its clear that Wenger has little or no idea how to maximise his players' abilities. His tactical shortcomings have been debated endlessly, and its obvious that by not being able to direct matches tactically he is leaving his players short. What is rarely mentioned is the scandal that he simply does not know his best team. The line up tonight had all the hallmarks of an experiment rather than a team intended to ensure a win, and we have seen this time and time again. Let's remember that this is a manager who has bought no new outfield players - and who, since his panic buying at the start of the 2013/14 season has been sparing with new first team introductions to say the least. His significant new signings - Ozil and Alexis - have played more than enough for Wenger to know where their most effective positions are - as have his 'breakthrough' players. What is longevity as a manager supposed to bring but consistency and an intimate knowledge of how his team should work. I don't think the manager has any clear understanding of what blend brings out the best in his players. That he does not have a settled, go to, first 11 in these circumstances is little short of nonsensical. The result - its very difficult to look at a single player in this season's team bar maybe Bellerin who is playing anywhere near to his true potential.

2. Wenger does not understand what it means to control a game. I think that that the possession game that we have all, mostly, grown to despise is down to a misguided belief that this is what controlling a game is. It isn't. The team that sits back and lets us blow ourselves out. That is content to have men behind the ball and wait for us to misplace the final pass. That is ready to counter attack and punish Arsenal when we desperately seek a breakthrough. That team controls the game, and even inferior teams often do so for much of the game - notwithstanding that they might lose to the odd individual or collective moment of brilliance from us. Let's be honest - when is the last time we 'owned' a game. Liverpool at home last season? The FA Cup final against a hopelessly naive Villa? Wenger's apparent misunderstanding that teams that control games do so via shifts in gear; controlling tempo; preventing the opposition from playing their own game combined with a seeming obsession with possession football seems bewilderingly naive.

3. It is self evident that neither manager nor players have any real hunger. His pre-match emphasis on that fact that we qualified last year having lost our first CL game almost made me weep. His bringing in of second choice players in a number of positions backed up this complete absence of any real focus. That we lost to a European minnow; that AOC was at fault for the first goal by not tracking back; that we fell into disarray and never looked like winning after the first 15 minutes is the inevitable result of an attitude that regards merely qualifying from the group; merely finishing top 4 in the league as a job done.

To say that our team is misguided; misfiring and uninspiring is an understatement.

:gp:

[topgun]

Wenger is tactially naive, cheap and cannot motivate players, the lack of hunger and application from a team who have never won the CL is shocking to be honest, 18 years of failure in the CL tells you all you need to know about Wenger, he never learns a thing.

Spot on about controlling, harmless passing doesn't constitue controlling a game. S*ck of the sight of him and his teams to be honest, year after year we have to put up with his incompetence in the transfer market and on the pitch, when will it all end?

:gp

[alexander]

I was in the mindset of keeping wenger on, I was thinking we were better off `better the devil you know` etc, but I cant take this anymore. Each season a carbon copy of the last. I was all for swapping 2-3 players out last night, but he went too far. Some of the players he brought in have hardly kicked a ball. I have gone (in typical fashion of the last 5 seasons) from thinking last saturday, yeah, I reckon we can take chelsea, but now our confidence will be shot to shit again, and theirs will be right back up.

Im with NQ and the rest, Wenger out. He has had a chance. I actually he is part of the reason I dont care about them so much these days.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3239083/Arsenal-boss-Arsene-Wenger-continue-rotating-keepers-David-Ospina-Petr-Cech-despite-Champions-League-loss.html

If true, it explains some of the insanity we see with team selection. What an amazingly stupid arrangement - if true. The 1st choice GK is the one player you hope will get every single game in a season under his belt. The rock on which the understanding between the defence is built.

Rotating goalkeepers. Who has ever heard the like?

[Maestro]

Your best players should be starting the big games. There is more than enough games to rotate in the League Cup, FA Cup, dead rubber CL games, and dead rubber PL games once we've secured 4th spot ....idiotic if true, I swear Wenget has crossed the line from arrogant to senile

[Maestro]

striker issues aside, was there a valid logical reason for us not to get midfield reinforcements. arteta and flamini are finished and we could have got shot of them and got in in some decent replacements. take coquelin out of that team and we're completely porous ......baffles the mind, but hey what do we know?

[IBK]

striker issues aside, was there a valid logical reason for us not to get midfield reinforcements. arteta and flamini are finished and we could have got shot of them and got in in some decent replacements. take coquelin out of that team and we're completely porous ......baffles the mind, but hey what do we know?

With my 'trying to be fair' hat on - I'm not sure that we've seen yet whether Arteta can still do a job for us, given that it was his first start for so long and he only played for us half a dozen times last season. But even had he been fully fit - it was madness to put him alongside Santi, and very worrying that Wenger could not see this. I would have given Santi Ozil's position and played Ramsey alongside Arteta at the very least. This would have been an experiment worth trying had Arteta been fit. Wednesday's experiment was as pointless as it was unsuccessful.

[Niall_Quinn]

striker issues aside, was there a valid logical reason for us not to get midfield reinforcements. arteta and flamini are finished and we could have got shot of them and got in in some decent replacements. take coquelin out of that team and we're completely porous ......baffles the mind, but hey what do we know?

There are no midfielders out there who have enough quality to replace what we already have. And the prices are crazy. It is impossible to find a world class midfielder who could transform the team and form a devastating partnership with Alexis for £28mill and £90kpw these days.

[Maestro]

There are no midfielders out there who have enough quality to replace what we already have. And the prices are crazy. It is impossible to find a world class midfielder who could transform the team and form a devastating partnership with Alexis for £28mill and £90kpw these days.

what is wrong with me, completely forgot about the lack of affordable quality players out there ......silly me :doh:

[Niall_Quinn]

what is wrong with me, completely forgot about the lack of affordable quality players out there ......silly me :doh:

What you need to do is get behind the team now, but thank you for your interest in our affairs nonetheless.

[Maestro]

What you need to do is get behind the team now, but thank you for your interest in our affairs nonetheless.

apologies for that slip, i really need to judge this at the end of the season ..not after ten years. from now on, i'm backing the man when he has a plan and shutting the fuck when he doesn't have one!