Non 'top 4' PL players who would improve us

[Static]

The title is supposed to say 'non' and not 'none'. If an admin could fix that for me that'd be great!

Fergie used to go out and buy PL players from non 'top 4' teams in order to strengthen his squad. Saha, VDS, Carrick, Berbatov, Young, Rooney and you could put Rio in there too (just to name a few, probably more out there).

Edit: Forgot Rooney.

Who would improve us?

[selassie]

Vertonghen
Saido Mane
John Stones
Sturridge
Coutinho

[Niall_Quinn]

Klopp

[AFC Leveller]

Sturridge
Gomis
Stones
Kane

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

To strengthen the squad, the list is endless.....to strengthen the first team......very few.

[LDG]

Problem with us isn't really the players (not wanting to dampen enthusiasm for the thread).

[fakeyank]

Wenger Out

[Letters]

Wenger Out

:lol:

[Letters]

Klopp

The fella who spent most of last season almost getting Dortmund relegated?

:coffee:


Wouldn't mind Koeman actually, very impressed with what he's doing at Southampton

[Power n Glory]

The fella who spent most of last season almost getting Dortmund relegated?

:coffee:


Wouldn't mind Koeman actually, very impressed with what he's doing at Southampton

Koeman looks decent but he's almost had a team relegated like Klopp. It can happen. You often make mention or Brian Clough and I think Wenger has had a team relegated. Dortmund didn't go down though. Also, what he achieved on that budget against Bayern was quite phenomenal. Bayern with their dirty tricks had to pouch his players to win the title back.

[Munchies]

It's not even the players nowadays, it's all down to the shoddy tactics.

Soton/West Ham have showed if you go to supposedly bigger teams with a game plan and an idea, you can have a good shot at winning

Wenger hasn't beaten Mourinho in like 14 attempts in a competitive game

[Penguin]

I have to agree with Blink... I can't think of many who would improve our first team. I'd take Coutinho, and possibly Mane, although I don't think the latter is that much of an improvement on what we've got.

Stones would slot in nicely at CB, he's great on the ball which is perfect for our tactics. Defensively there's a lot of work to do though. We can't afford to babysit him for two or three years while he learns the art of defending.
Jury's still out on Kane.

Sturridge is a crock, and we have more than our fair share of those.

Who else is there?

[AFC Leveller]

Cabaye in place of Ramsay/other CM would probably improve our first team, he is a proper CM not a converted winger/playermaker

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

The fella who spent most of last season almost getting Dortmund relegated?

:coffee:

He's a great manager and a fantastic human being.

[Kano]

The fella who spent most of last season almost getting Dortmund relegated

Didn't they finish sixth?

[Letters]

Didn't they finish sixth?

7th actually, with 46 points - the previous season they'd got 71.
They were 33 points off the top, only 15 off the bottom

[Kano]

7th actually, with 46 points - the previous season they'd got 71.
They were 33 points off the top, only 15 off the bottom

So they weren't nearly relegated then, otherwise they would've been just outside the bottom three. And they qualified for Europe. The previous season they finished 19 points off the top, despite finishing second. So highlighting point gaps like that isn't really useful when they are up against a team like Bayern. Who also walloped them 5-1 today.

Your first post is why your complaints about wumming sound ridiculous.

Also, remind us, what glory did Wenger cover himself in the season before he came here? Because of course, we were all anticipating big things from the guy given his reputation in the game.

[Letters]

I didn't say they were nearly relegated. I said he spent most of last season almost getting Dortmund relegated.
They were in the relegation zone on Valentine's day which is well over half their season, even accounting for their winter break.
Can you imagine the reaction on here if we had a season like that?

The season before Wenger came to us? I had to look it up, but Nagoya Grampus finished runners-up in the league, the highest they'd ever been in their history to that point.

:tiphat:

[Kano]

The Japanese League :lol:

Deary me Letters. Do try wumming better than that.

[Letters]

You asked a question, I answered it. Explain how that is WUMming? :blink:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No doubt he lost a lot of his lustre after the Champions League final

I think he'd be a good fit for Liverpool, can imagine the fans would adore him

[Letters]

I'm not suggesting he's suddenly a bad manager btw, if he does go to Liverpool it'll be interesting to see how he does. But I do find it interesting how lowly some on here rate Wenger and how highly by contrast they still rate Klopp despite last season's car crash. Again, I can't even begin to imagine the reactions on here if we ever had a season anywhere near as bad as Dortmund did last year.

[Kano]

With the added qualification of how it stacked up against their history. Then the smug smilie. No need for those two things, except to wum. As per the first post.

We both know it and your pointless argument against Klopp is just to stoke some fires. You're doing stellar work with Wenger so don't undermine yourself with pub wumming like this. You're better than that.

[Letters]

The qualification is completely relevant to how Wenger performed before he came to us which is what you asked.

I'm not arguing against Klopp, I'm not arguing anything. I'm just pointing out that Wenger is getting a ridiculous amount of stick right now despite the last couple of seasons being a reasonable success. This season our CL campaign has been a fiasco but I've no complaints about the PL results - but for some cheating by the ref at Stamford Brisge we could be top right now. Even despite that we're 2nd and have just got a very good result against a side who have been a bogey side for us.

Compare and contrast with how Klopp is regarded on here. He is clearly a very good manager but last season was a car crash for him. Wenger has never had a season like that. I find it strange that it doesn't seem to have dented anyone's opinion of him.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I think Klopp would be a good fit for them and Rafael Honingstein confirmed They've been in for him twice before.

Stones, Barkley, Benteke, Lukaku, Sissoko, Wijnaldum. 4 out of that lot would probably be my pick for outfield players.

[Power n Glory]

The qualification is completely relevant to how Wenger performed before he came to us which is what you asked.

I'm not arguing against Klopp, I'm not arguing anything. I'm just pointing out that Wenger is getting a ridiculous amount of stick right now despite the last couple of seasons being a reasonable success. This season our CL campaign has been a fiasco but I've no complaints about the PL results - but for some cheating by the ref at Stamford Brisge we could be top right now. Even despite that we're 2nd and have just got a very good result against a side who have been a bogey side for us.

Compare and contrast with how Klopp is regarded on here. He is clearly a very good manager but last season was a car crash for him. Wenger has never had a season like that. I find it strange that it doesn't seem to have dented anyone's opinion of him.

You can’t compare and contrast it with Wenger because Klopp had one exceptionally bad season after a period of dominance. It’s taken a very long time for fans to really lose patience with Wenger. It went from blaming the players, to blaming the Board and now nearly a decade later the blame is going straight on Wenger. If Wenger had a season like Klopp’s just after the Invincible season I doubt people would really be going this hard on him because it’s a blip in an otherwise successful stint with us. Unfortunately for us, we can’t say we’ve had a blip. It’s somehow ended up looking like the norm.

[Letters]

Hmm. That's a fair point although just checking his record, he did win them the league twice in a row but that was a few years ago.
After that they finished 2nd twice - miles behind Bayern both times - before last season's debacle. In one of those years they did get to the CL Final, but lost.
Unless I'm missing something it seems he didn't win them a major trophy for the last 3 seasons and the last of those was very poor.
I don't think he's suddenly a bad manager but he didn't have a long, sustained period of success with Dortmund.

[Power n Glory]

Hmm. That's a fair point although just checking his record, he did win them the league twice in a row but that was a few years ago.
After that they finished 2nd twice - miles behind Bayern both times - before last season's debacle. In one of those years they did get to the CL Final, but lost.
Unless I'm missing something it seems he didn't win them a major trophy for the last 3 seasons and the last of those was very poor.
I don't think he's suddenly a bad manager but he didn't have a long, sustained period of success with Dortmund.

Again, if you recall correctly, it's taken a very long time for people to criticise Wenger and want him out. How long did we go without a major trophy? We lost 3 finals in the process and had seasons where we came close to finishing outside the top 4. It's not the same by a long distance. Dortmund's players were poached by Bayern and there hasn't been time for Klopp to rebuild..

[Kano]

You can’t compare and contrast it with Wenger because Klopp had one exceptionally bad season after a period of dominance. It’s taken a very long time for fans to really lose patience with Wenger. It went from blaming the players, to blaming the Board and now nearly a decade later the blame is going straight on Wenger. If Wenger had a season like Klopp’s just after the Invincible season I doubt people would really be going this hard on him because it’s a blip in an otherwise successful stint with us. Unfortunately for us, we can’t say we’ve had a blip. It’s somehow ended up looking like the norm.

Well this is it, Klopp managed to not only win two titles up against Bayern - a team better than anyone in our league and one of the best in the world - and establish Dortmund as a team feared across Europe. All done on a far smaller budget than the big super clubs and all the while having their two best players - and two of the worlds best in their positions - taken from them by their direct competitor. Quite an achievement. You definitely can't compare to Wenger as nobody bloody knew a thing about the man when he arrived. Zero expectations. Very easy to understand why Klopp will have his pick of clubs when he decides to come back. Careful you don't get pubbed up by Letters here, we are due a quiet two weeks with the internationals coming and fires have to be stoked somewhere.

[Power n Glory]

:lol: I'll take that warning.

[Gooner23]

Get Wanyama in January and bin off Arteta & Flamini (despite his Tottenham heroics) at end of season.

[Letters]

Again, if you recall correctly, it's taken a very long time for people to criticise Wenger and want him out.
It really hasn't. Are you new here? Agreed that more people have become disillusioned with him as time has gone by but after a couple of years people were whining on here, certainly after 3 and we never had a season anything like as bad as Dortmund did last year. As you say, at worst we were touch and go for top 4, we never flirted with relegation.


How long did we go without a major trophy? We lost 3 finals in the process and had seasons where we came close to finishing outside the top 4.
Agreed, but a lot of that time was when we were financially hamstrung by the new stadium move, the billionaires were running amok and our top players were being poached too.

It is difficult to compare Wenger and Klopp, different leagues, different situations. But I still maintain that if we'd ever had a season like Dortmund had last year I don't think anyone on here would be defending Wenger ("You would, Letter's" - just thought I'd type that to save you doing so), even if it was only a few years after our last major trophy. Players poached or not, they were in the relegation zone in February. Can you imagine this place if that happened to us?!

[Bumble]

There are plenty of players who would improve the squad and allow further rotation without undermining the first team level.

Sturridge probably better striker than Walcott but is crocked, Lukaku/Benteke better options than Giroud. Stones could replace Merts but not Kos. Coleman good right back but Bellerin has impressed and cant think of an occasion he has played badly after his debut. Barkley instead of Ramsey.

[Marc Overmars]

I think Wenget should have been all over Cabaye but that ship has sailed now. Still can't believe he's playing for Palace.

There are a few players outside the top 4 who we'd be naive to think wouldn't be able to provide us with quality, but I don't think there are many guys who I could catergoricially say would dislodge members of our best 11.

[Niall_Quinn]

Barkley instead of Ramsey.

I just don't get the thing about Barkley.

[Marc Overmars]

I just don't get the thing about Barkley.

Too much bluster. Can't pick a pass for shit. Might comb a shot in once a month though.

[Power n Glory]

It really hasn't. Are you new here? Agreed that more people have become disillusioned with him as time has gone by but after a couple of years people were whining on here, certainly after 3 and we never had a season anything like as bad as Dortmund did last year. As you say, at worst we were touch and go for top 4, we never flirted with relegation.


Agreed, but a lot of that time was when we were financially hamstrung by the new stadium move, the billionaires were running amok and our top players were being poached too.

It is difficult to compare Wenger and Klopp, different leagues, different situations. But I still maintain that if we'd ever had a season like Dortmund had last year I don't think anyone on here would be defending Wenger ("You would, Letter's" - just thought I'd type that to save you doing so), even if it was only a few years after our last major trophy. Players poached or not, they were in the relegation zone in February. Can you imagine this place if that happened to us?!

People were unhappy with the lack of spending and wondering what was going on behind the scenes. 3 years after our last trophy we were close to winning the league and it was the project youth era. People had faith in his youth development skills back then and his eye for talent. He was never a strong tactician but people weren't questioning that so heavily. There would have been heavy criticism of the players, board and manager if we'd have been close to relegation but over the years, the scapegoating and talk of individual players have decreased, the talk of the Board and owners not supporting the club has quietened down as well. Because of the extended run of bad form and different Arsenal players and teams showing the same hallmarks of mental fragility and weakness, the focus is firmly on Wenger.

If he'd have gone after 3 years having a season like Klopp's, I don't think he'd get the sort of hammering he's getting now. He'd get some but not concentrated. The Board would be in the firing line and so would the players that let him down. Opinions would be divided on how we've fallen and who's most to blame. With such a steep and sharp decline, it's hard to pinpoint where exactly things have gone wrong. But because it's been a long run, because we've changed players and had brand new teams with the same problems, that same lapse in concentration and frailty and because we now know we have money in the bank without question and Wenger didn't spend on any outfield player, he's bearing the brunt. I've said this before, but if we had sudden decline and swift Wenger exit, the flaws as a manager wouldn't have been so obvious. It's taken years to spot the patterns.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I think Barkley is a genuine talent...but he needs time to hone his skills and is still learning. As is Chamberlain who many on here were saying would have a breakthrough / POTS campaign.

[GP]

Barkley isn't half the player Ramsey is.

Ramsey is an exceptional talent. He'd be a starter for any team in this league.

[Fist of Lehmann]

I think Barkley is a genuine talent...but he needs time to hone his skills and is still learning. As is Chamberlain who many on here were saying would have a breakthrough / POTS campaign.
I'd say Barkley and Ox were pretty much analogous, both head down dribblers who don't contribute enough defensively.

Barkley has the advantage of playing every week as a central attacking midfielder - parachute Ox into that exact situation and I suspect he would outshine Barkley by some distance.

[IBK]

Problem with us isn't really the players (not wanting to dampen enthusiasm for the thread).

This.

[IBK]

I'm not suggesting he's suddenly a bad manager btw, if he does go to Liverpool it'll be interesting to see how he does. But I do find it interesting how lowly some on here rate Wenger and how highly by contrast they still rate Klopp despite last season's car crash. Again, I can't even begin to imagine the reactions on here if we ever had a season anywhere near as bad as Dortmund did last year.

I agree that it will be extremely interesting if Klopp goes to Liverpool. I know nothing about German football, but I doubt its as perverse as our league in terms of results against so-called small teams - and it will be interesting to see how he copes with the obsessive spotlight and pressure. An exciting appointment (assuming it happens) but a punt nonetheless.

[IBK]

Again, if you recall correctly, it's taken a very long time for people to criticise Wenger and want him out. How long did we go without a major trophy? We lost 3 finals in the process and had seasons where we came close to finishing outside the top 4. It's not the same by a long distance. Dortmund's players were poached by Bayern and there hasn't been time for Klopp to rebuild..

I agree with you, Mate. Wenger went an unprecedentedly long time (for a big club and in this day and age) without being pilloried. Most Gooners bought the settling into the new stadium and not having funds to spend and very few were calling for his head because of that until maybe 4 years ago - I think the CC debacle was a turning point for most, and if so that was 7 years without a trophy. Genuinely, it is impossible to think of another manager at a big European club being given anything like that time. Also, Wenger too lost key players, but the general feeling with him, unlike Klopp, was that this was partly because he didn't fight hard enough to keep them, or that the players were disenchanted by his serial failure to win trophies. Not the same for Klopp at all!

Even now - Wenger is given a much easier ride than his peers in the press - partly because he has accustomed all observers to our top 4 rather than champions status, and partly because he is under no pressure whatsoever from an owner who sees our club merely as a cash cow against which to leverage loans for his US enterprises.

[Kano]

I agree that it will be extremely interesting if Klopp goes to Liverpool. I know nothing about German football, but I doubt its as perverse as our league in terms of results against so-called small teams - and it will be interesting to see how he copes with the obsessive spotlight and pressure. An exciting appointment (assuming it happens) but a punt nonetheless.

This is worth a read

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/oct/05/bayern-munich-dominance-bundesliga-stuck-on-shuffle

[IBK]

Quote Originally Posted by IBK View Post
I agree that it will be extremely interesting if Klopp goes to Liverpool. I know nothing about German football, but I doubt its as perverse as our league in terms of results against so-called small teams - and it will be interesting to see how he copes with the obsessive spotlight and pressure. An exciting appointment (assuming it happens) but a punt nonetheless.


This is worth a read

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...uck-on-shuffle

Interesting article but a bit perverse in that it starts off by saying that (contrary to my avowed lack of knowledge), the Bundesliga is an incredibly volatile league, but finished with emphasising Bayern's unparalleled dominance - which is something the EPL does not have. One wonders what the point of the unpredictability below first spot is if there is only likely ever to be one winner?

As for Klopp - well he did challenge Bayern's dominance - but whether his knowledge/methods translate to the EPL we will wait and see. I suppose Guardiola's did from Barca to Germany...

[Kano]

Quote Originally Posted by IBK View Post
I agree that it will be extremely interesting if Klopp goes to Liverpool. I know nothing about German football, but I doubt its as perverse as our league in terms of results against so-called small teams - and it will be interesting to see how he copes with the obsessive spotlight and pressure. An exciting appointment (assuming it happens) but a punt nonetheless.


This is worth a read

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...uck-on-shuffle

Interesting article but a bit perverse in that it starts off by saying that (contrary to my avowed lack of knowledge), the Bundesliga is an incredibly volatile league, but finished with emphasising Bayern's unparalleled dominance - which is something the EPL does not have. One wonders what the point of the unpredictability below first spot is if there is only likely ever to be one winner?

As for Klopp - well he did challenge Bayern's dominance - but whether his knowledge/methods translate to the EPL we will wait and see. I suppose Guardiola's did from Barca to Germany...

It has become that in the past few years - even when Dortmund were challenging, Bayern would still regularly smash teams by 4/5/6 goals and end up winning the title by 20 points or so. Bayern are just an absolute machine. They'd do exactly the same here too. Dortmund were a genuine threat to Bayern when they took two back-to-back titles and got to the CL final but taking Lewandowski and Gotze in particular really hurt them. God knows how they've kept hold of Reus and Hummels. When Klopp took over Dortmund, they had fallen from winning the CL and a few league titles, into being a mid-table team. The odd thing with last years league under performance was that they topped our Champions League group. They still qualified for Europe and got to their domestic cup final. Also look at Juventus this year. Won four Serie A titles in row, get to the CL final, lose Tevez and Vidal, start terribly in the league this year and flying in the CL.

I think the game in Germany is probably the closest to the PL you are going to get. Klopp's game is all about high intensity but I think the biggest problem he'll face is internal politics at Liverpool and getting something out of their current, duff squad. They certainly aren't the type of players he likes to work with.

[Niall_Quinn]

Liverpool will get the bump that every new manager brings. The media will go wild. Then it will all settle back. Klopp will need a couple of years to clear out everyone and build a team. Unless he's some sort of miracle worker he won't be doing anything with the squad he has. Woy and Brenda wrecked the place and spent a fortune doing it. That will take a priod of recovery to fix no matter who is in charge. Personally I think they would have been better off with Ancelotti. More chance of a methodical approach with less highs and lows. But Klopp will be a lot more fun of course.

[Kano]

Also, there have been six winners of the Bundesliga compared to five here since the PL started, so the competition is/was similar. Bayern are traditionally the main powerhouse of German football and have had massive periods of dominance before but they have also fallen off of that too.

[IBK]

It has become that in the past few years - even when Dortmund were challenging, Bayern would still regularly smash teams by 4/5/6 goals and end up winning the title by 20 points or so. Bayern are just an absolute machine. They'd do exactly the same here too. Dortmund were a genuine threat to Bayern when they took two back-to-back titles and got to the CL final but taking Lewandowski and Gotze in particular really hurt them. God knows how they've kept hold of Reus and Hummels. When Klopp took over Dortmund, they had fallen from winning the CL and a few league titles, into being a mid-table team. The odd thing with last years league under performance was that they topped our Champions League group. They still qualified for Europe and got to their domestic cup final. Also look at Juventus this year. Won four Serie A titles in row, get to the CL final, lose Tevez and Vidal, start terribly in the league this year and flying in the CL.

I think the game in Germany is probably the closest to the PL you are going to get. Klopp's game is all about high intensity but I think the biggest problem he'll face is internal politics at Liverpool and getting something out of their current, duff squad. They certainly aren't the type of players he likes to work with.

Nice to be informed :good: I'll now show off to my mates claiming your knowledge as my own, of course!

[Kano]

Now you just have to trust that I am a reliable source...

[Kano]

Liverpool will get the bump that every new manager brings. The media will go wild. Then it will all settle back. Klopp will need a couple of years to clear out everyone and build a team. Unless he's some sort of miracle worker he won't be doing anything with the squad he has. Woy and Brenda wrecked the place and spent a fortune doing it. That will take a priod of recovery to fix no matter who is in charge. Personally I think they would have been better off with Ancelotti. More chance of a methodical approach with less highs and lows. But Klopp will be a lot more fun of course.

The only issue have with Ancelotti is that bar his stint at Milan, he doesn't seem to hang around too long, although whether that is all his doing I'm not sure. What also surprises me is his age, 56, when he seems to have been around forever. I think he has also been used to a larger season-on-season budget, which may not be a fit given the current Liverpool set-up, that is certainly something Klopp can do. There are definite pro's and cons for each man but it seems as if Liverpool are going for the German primarily. Either way, turning that club around is a long haul.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Liverpool will get the bump that every new manager brings. The media will go wild. Then it will all settle back. Klopp will need a couple of years to clear out everyone and build a team. Unless he's some sort of miracle worker he won't be doing anything with the squad he has. Woy and Brenda wrecked the place and spent a fortune doing it. That will take a priod of recovery to fix no matter who is in charge. Personally I think they would have been better off with Ancelotti. More chance of a methodical approach with less highs and lows. But Klopp will be a lot more fun of course.

I'm not picky tbf. I'll take either.

[Bumble]

Liverpool will get the bump that every new manager brings. The media will go wild. Then it will all settle back. Klopp will need a couple of years to clear out everyone and build a team. Unless he's some sort of miracle worker he won't be doing anything with the squad he has. Woy and Brenda wrecked the place and spent a fortune doing it. That will take a priod of recovery to fix no matter who is in charge. Personally I think they would have been better off with Ancelotti. More chance of a methodical approach with less highs and lows. But Klopp will be a lot more fun of course.
wouldn't exactly say Rogers wrecked Liverpool as they were only a gerrard slip from winning the league couple of years ago. the problem was after having to sell saurez is trying to replace him with quantity instead of quality. like spurs did when trying to replace Bale.

I heard that Ancelotti probably be going back to Italy and probably only wants a CL club before moving on to manage Italy.

No idea how Klopp will do, he gives his academy players a chance which is good and he did well as his previous club too I think.

[IBK]

If it were us - would we prefer the potential excitement and playing style of Klopp, or the potential consistency of Ancelotti? I think Liverpool like Arsenal are associated with an exciting playing style, so if I were a Liverpool fan, I'd kind of want Klopp more...