Match Reaction - Farmer Giles and the Gang 1-1 Arsenal

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger out.

Really. Time's up.

[Marc Overmars]

5 points carelessly dropped in a week against bang average teams and more injuries to compound the misery.

I think its time we put any title talk on the back burner for now, until we actually restore some credibility.

[Letters]

Arsenal :lol:
Awlful title contenders.


And now we've broken Sanchez :ilt:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

At least November is done with now.

[Globalgunner]

You want us to sack the manager of the month?

[Niall_Quinn]

At least November is done with now.

Yeah. Fuck. XMas coming, stuffing face with food, getting pissed. I'm not letting Arsenal ruin it for me. Roll on December.

[Niall_Quinn]

You want us to sack the manager of the month?

If it's up to you then yes, make it so.

[Kano]

Players off the boil today. 1-1, still up there. On we go to Sunderland.

[Niall_Quinn]

63% possession :bow:

[RomfordPele]

Our season is done really. Can't see us doing the business against olympiakos without our three most influential players. We will drop points over Xmas with all the injuries, and wenger will sit on his hands all January as usual.

It'll be between us and spurs and Liverpool for fourth as usual. Grim.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fat Sam at home next and Villa away. Ordinarily six points but if not, then fuck this shit tbf.

[Master Splinter]

Fucking third kit. Fucking November. Fucking Arsenal.

The points were lost after we let them off in the first half and everything turned to shit after the Alexis injury. West Brom was just one of those horrible days where everything goes wrong, but today was just poor after initially looking comfortable. Dreadful to only get 1 point out of these last two games, considering how good we usually are away from home in the league.

Coquelin and Arteta last week.

Koscielny and Alexis this week.

Cech and Cazorla next week?

[Letters]

Players off the boil today. 1-1, still up there. On we go to Sunderland.

We are still up there and I'm not going to completely throw the towel in but today was hardly the stuff of champions.
Happily no-one is taking the league by the scruff of the next this season so we are still in the mix but it's all a bit worrying - weird that the excellent performance and result in the week was sandwiched between two such poor results.

First half I thought we were pretty decent, second we were hopeless. No urgency and but for a very good Cech save we could have lost it.
Cech :bow:

We had a run of 4 'easy' games before the City one. We've made a right mess of the first two. We CANNOT do that in the next 2.

[Chippy]

You want us to sack the manager of the month?

Of course! And the Medical staff. Get rid of that cunt Gazidis whilst your at it.

[Niall_Quinn]

We are still up there and I'm not going to completely throw the towel in but today was hardly the stuff of champions.
Happily no-one is taking the league by the scruff of the next this season so we are still in the mix but it's all a bit worrying - weird that the excellent performance and result in the week was sandwiched between two such poor results.

First half I thought we were pretty decent, second we were hopeless. No urgency and but for a very good Cech save we could have lost it.
Cech :bow:

We had a run of 4 'easy' games before the City one. We've made a right mess of the first two. We CANNOT do that in the next 2.

In some ways it's looking like the same old shit we have seen for a decade. But I agree. Any minute now it will be different.

[fakeyank]

Of course! And the Medical staff. Get rid of that cunt Gazidis whilst your at it.

Just get wenger the hell out of the club and the rest will sort itself out. He is poisonous to the club..

[Chippy]

We are still up there and I'm not going to completely throw the towel in but today was hardly the stuff of champions.
Happily no-one is taking the league by the scruff of the next this season so we are still in the mix but it's all a bit worrying - weird that the excellent performance and result in the week was sandwiched between two such poor results.

First half I thought we were pretty decent, second we were hopeless. No urgency and but for a very good Cech save we could have lost it.
Cech :bow:

We had a run of 4 'easy' games before the City one. We've made a right mess of the first two. We CANNOT do that in the next 2.
Still up there! We should be top! But we have a very poor Manager and an injury prone squad.

[Master Splinter]

Yeah. Fuck. XMas coming, stuffing face with food, getting pissed. I'm not letting Arsenal ruin it for me. Roll on December.

We're generally good in December and the festive period. But having to rely Bould at the back, Boro Primorac in midfield and the last resort of an Aliadiere recall up front will be little bit insurmountable.

[Niall_Quinn]

Of course! And the Medical staff. Get rid of that cunt Gazidis whilst your at it.

Manager of the month for October.

How did we do in November?

And therein lies the problem with this guy. He's the false dawn specialist. Consistent when we need to get back in a hunt. FUBAR when we're at the sharp end trying to take something from everything that went before. Should have been moved upstairs to handle the finances years ago (which is what he excels at to the detriment of the team).

[topgun]

Wenger out.

Really. Time's up.

Can't happen soon enough.Same s--t every season.

[Niall_Quinn]

We're generally good in December and the festive period. But having to rely Bould at the back, Boro Primorac in midfield and the last resort of an Aliadiere recall up front will be little bit insurmountable.

Generally I hate we can predict all this stuff well in advance. It would be nice to be surprised from time to time. I'm okay with Bould at the back. He's quicker than Merts and won't turn his back on the ball.

[Munchies]

Had enough

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Our record in November under Wenger must be abysmal, I don't quite get why though. It's like March for Villa.

[Kano]

Just get wenger the hell out of the club and the rest will sort itself out. He is poisonous to the club..

I think if you keep saying it enough, it will come true. At the end of his contract.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think if you keep saying it enough, it will come true. At the end of his contract.

Give him another contract. For a laugh.

Really though, Wenger COULD be everything that's right about football, but seeing as nobody else wants to do it his way he's absolutely everything that's wrong about thriving in this league.

[topgun]

Had enough

Me too,can't watch this s--t anymore.

[Master Splinter]

WUMger:



Cazorla finished on one leg


:haha:

It's funny because the truth will actually be four times worse.

Primorac time :bow:.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Comes back to not reinforcing in The Summer, another striker and another holding midfielder

Plus an internal enquiry (not by Wenger) into our injury crisis....yes there are some players playing too many games without respite but there's also too many muscle injuries.

Negligence again when for me we should be leading the way.

[fakeyank]

Give him another contract. For a laugh.

Really though, Wenger COULD be everything that's right about football, but seeing as nobody else wants to do it his way he's absolutely everything that's wrong about thriving in this league.

He will unfortunately be given a new contract. Unpopular opinion on here but the fact is that his french arse will be sacked only when he doesnt get 4th place. If we are not challenging for the title this season, I'd rather we dont finish top 4... I dont care that we will not be able to 'attract top players' without CL football. There is no point attracting any worthwhile football player when you have a joke of a manager. Its not like he will have any decent tactics or even actually buy them...

[Power n Glory]

More pissed off that I wasted my time watching that. So predictable.

Santi is injured as well according to Wenger.

Wenger blaming everyone else but himself for Sanchez's injury in the interview even though it's obvious he has been overplayed.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Me too,can't watch this s--t anymore.

See you next weekend.

[Maestro]

I have no more reactions left, not even knee jerk ones

not upset, not happy, not emotional, not optimistic, not pessimistic .....and just not bothered, it's a refreshing state of mind

[Maestro]

hold the press, I do have a reaction ...had to dig deep for it though

totally gutted about losing Sanchez and Aguero from my dream team ffs !!!! really can't afford to lose the fantasy points right now

[Kano]

See you next weekend.

:lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

See you next weekend.

Pretty much, football fandom is a sickness of the mind and no matter how badly we feel abused by it we keep on showing up week in, week out....hoping for the best, fearing the worst.
I know even if I resolve to turn my back on the club, that it will be a resolution that lasts only until the next game.

[LDG]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/3378414/groundhog-day-o.gif

[selassie]

Our season is done really. Can't see us doing the business against olympiakos without our three most influential players. We will drop points over Xmas with all the injuries, and wenger will sit on his hands all January as usual.

It'll be between us and spurs and Liverpool for fourth as usual. Grim.

Sadly I agree with you. Our best players are getting crocked now so we're really going to struggle, without Kos & Sanchez I think we're on the brink of a collapse.

I've given up caring TBH, nothing has or will ever change with Wenger in charge.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/3378414/groundhog-day-o.gif

:haha:

Must watch that film this chrissy

[Bumble]

We are still up there and I'm not going to completely throw the towel in but today was hardly the stuff of champions.
Happily no-one is taking the league by the scruff of the next this season so we are still in the mix but it's all a bit worrying - weird that the excellent performance and result in the week was sandwiched between two such poor results.



Probably playing at home against a side that would probably lose to both west brom and Norwich makes a difference.

Still think we will go through in the CL. And we aren't out of the league. Although citeh if they play properly and aguero stays fit will win at a canter. We have had a lot of injuries but they have all been right wide attack. However we are now starting to spread the injuries out a bit with coq Sanchez possibly Kos.

Cech has proved his worth and shown to Wenger what happens when you have a top class keeper.

[Marc Overmars]

Cech has proved his worth and shown to Wenger what happens when you have a top class keeper.

Beginning to wonder where the hell we'd be without him this season. West Ham disaster aside, he has been exceptional.

[Niall_Quinn]

...weird that the excellent performance and result in the week was sandwiched between two such poor results.

Where's that smiley with the little guy smashing his head against the wall and gnawing his own genitals off simultaneously? I'm going to need that.

[Niall_Quinn]

Beginning to wonder where the hell we'd be without him this season. West Ham disaster aside, he has been exceptional.

Took him a game to get used to the clown squad in front of him. A pretty good performance when you look at it that way.

[Niall_Quinn]

The moment Bennett should have been sent off after a violent foul on Alexis. He wasn't even booked. As further reward the Daily Mail had him as their man of the match. Good honest English football at its finest. That's what makes this league the best in the world, at least in the minds of people who don't get out much.

Definite straight red for assault with intent to harm. Maybe not as serious as Gabriel flicking his heel at Costa, that was life threatening whereas as this incident might have resulted in serious long term injury at worst.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/29/17/2EE8459700000578-3338402-image-a-65_1448818434905.jpg

[Marc Overmars]

Nothing to see there, just some playful banter from the good honest English lad.

[Munchies]

just saw the highlights

won't even bother for the next game

given up with this team until Wenger walks

[selassie]

More pissed off that I wasted my time watching that. So predictable.

Santi is injured as well according to Wenger.

Wenger blaming everyone else but himself for Sanchez's injury in the interview even though it's obvious he has been overplayed.

Just seen the post match interview, they were really probing Wenger on the injuries and he did his usual, basically mocked the press for suggesting that Sanchez was playing with a tight hamstring and said that all the tests before the game suggested Sanchez was fine.

When they questioned him on his comments regarding Sanchez being close to the "red" zone if he continued playing every game he replied there are many players in Europe who play every game.

They were basically probing him on the obscene amount of injuries we have and he wouldn't have it.

I truly hope their is some inquest going on behind closed doors on the amount of "muscular" injuries we are getting because it has reached a laughable stage now.

[Letters]

just saw the highlights

won't even bother for the next game

given up with this team until Wenger walks

What Maccy said.

[Kano]

just saw the highlights

won't even bother for the next game

given up with this team until Wenger walks

bye

[Static]

The team didn't show any fight tonight, a shame really.

[Özim]

Arsenal poor run shocker! Who could have predicted that, it's not like it's ever happened before.

Old habits die hard.

Think we're seeing exactly why we'll never win the league again under Wenger, it's always the same story.

[Özim]

Just seen the post match interview, they were really probing Wenger on the injuries and he did his usual, basically mocked the press for suggesting that Sanchez was playing with a tight hamstring and said that all the tests before the game suggested Sanchez was fine.

When they questioned him on his comments regarding Sanchez being close to the "red" zone if he continued playing every game he replied there are many players in Europe who play every game.

They were basically probing him on the obscene amount of injuries we have and he wouldn't have it.

I truly hope their is some inquest going on behind closed doors on the amount of "muscular" injuries we are getting because it has reached a laughable stage now.

The guy never accepts he's wrong. I'm not really sure if he's too stubborn or too thick, I mean he's suppose to be intelligent and yet can't spot any simple things even a man with two brain cells could spot.

[Letters]

The team didn't show any fight tonight, a shame really.

That was really disappointing.
I thought we were pretty good in the first half, the equalizer was a pretty decent goal but there was so little reaction.
We had a load of possession but did so little with it, only once or twice did we break with any real pace.

The one saving grace is no-one else is much good this year either, no-one is really taking the league by the scruff of the neck so we're still in the race. Cannot balls up the next 2 before the City game. Win those and we'd be able to leapfrog City when we play them, possibly to go top.

[Letters]

The guy never accepts he's wrong. I'm not really sure if he's too stubborn or too thick
You two have so much in common :d

[Power n Glory]

Just seen the post match interview, they were really probing Wenger on the injuries and he did his usual, basically mocked the press for suggesting that Sanchez was playing with a tight hamstring and said that all the tests before the game suggested Sanchez was fine.

When they questioned him on his comments regarding Sanchez being close to the "red" zone if he continued playing every game he replied there are many players in Europe who play every game.

They were basically probing him on the obscene amount of injuries we have and he wouldn't have it.

I truly hope their is some inquest going on behind closed doors on the amount of "muscular" injuries we are getting because it has reached a laughable stage now.

Yeah, I saw that and also read some of his comments.

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/wenger-i-nearly-rested-sanchez


"I would have rested Sanchez, but he said to me before the game he was fine to play. He was an important loss, he pushes defenders back and always is incisive with his dribbling."

He needs to take responsibility and stop trying to blame everyone and anyone but himself. The most annoying thing about this is that he doesn't learn from experience. We had the same with Wilshere where he tried to palm the blame onto Wilshere for making himself available to play. It's such a cop out and so cowardly. Why invest in tech that tells us the fatigue level of players or bring in an extra coach to help us prevent injury if it just boils down to asking a player if he wants to play? He'll blame International coaches, the pitch we play on, the opposition, hair loss products...question anything but his own decisions. He needs to go because this just sums him up.

It was predictable we'd lose more players after the international break and Sanchez was another obvious one. He's been playing flat out since joining us. A world cup year he joins us, followed by a Copa America and rushed back to play for us without a proper rest. I hope it's not a bad injury but this is what Wenger does. Beasts players until they break down. It's idiotic and he creates the rod for his own back in these cases. He won't buy but he's not good enough to manage a small squad.

I said it when Theo and Ox were injured. There is no point saying we need to sell the 'injury prone' players because we'll always have this problem under Wenger. It's his regime that's producing the crocks. Young lads like Ox, Gibbs, Wilshere, Ramsey and Theo have spent their whole career under Wenger and Arsenal. Whatever they've learned about fitness, conditioning, diets, stretching...you name it....they've learned it all here at Arsenal. So how comes they're the most injured? Something is wrong with the system.

[Power n Glory]

The guy never accepts he's wrong. I'm not really sure if he's too stubborn or too thick, I mean he's suppose to be intelligent and yet can't spot any simple things even a man with two brain cells could spot.

It's pure stubbornness. He's smart enough to form a heap of arguments and excuses to deflect the attention away from him.

[rodders]

Arguably one of the most disgusting performances from an Arsenal team, tactically outsmarted yet again, this team under this manager is a million miles from winning the Premier League

[fakeyank]

You two have so much in common :d

Dont know if Zimm is stubborn, but he sure has been right more than any other on here. He had called the dinosaurs decline 6 or 7 years before most on here.

[AFC Leveller]

Apart from Campbell, all 23 Arsenal players have been injured in 2015.

[Seaman's Ponytail]

just saw the highlights


Bet Giroud didn't feature in them. In fact, unusually, in 6 pages of match reaction i don't think he's been mentioned once, suspect not many of you realised he was playing. I've stuck up for him in the past but he was seriously bad today. Unless of course he was trying to impersonate a sack of shit in which case he was exceptional

[AFC Leveller]

Giroud's problem is that he lets the opposition CB dominate him and wind him up. I watched him closely yesterday and every time the ball was there to be won, Bassong won it and Giroud complained to the ref immediately. He is easy to rattle.

[Bumble]

That was really disappointing.
I thought we were pretty good in the first half, the equalizer was a pretty decent goal but there was so little reaction.
We had a load of possession but did so little with it, only once or twice did we break with any real pace.

The one saving grace is no-one else is much good this year either, no-one is really taking the league by the scruff of the neck so we're still in the race. Cannot balls up the next 2 before the City game. Win those and we'd be able to leapfrog City when we play them, possibly to go top.
I was thinking this on the way in, is it really a case of no team being that good. People have described the league as mediocre but surely mediocre is the German/Spanish or French league where one or two teams totally dominate. Is it not more of the case that our league is competitive all the way down and if we stay in touch that could give us an outside change knowing teams around us could lose to any of the other sides in the league.

[AFC Leveller]

I think this season in particular has been very unpredictable. Average teams like West Ham, Leicester, Palace and even the Spuds have stepped up a level and looked very good at times. This has made things more interesting IMO and the league is more open like that. In the past, Chelsea V Palace would have been a straight forward home win, ditto for Leicester V Man u (away win) but teams have caught up (and the top teams have gone down a level) and it makes for a much more interesting league.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

The moment Bennett should have been sent off after a violent foul on Alexis. He wasn't even booked. As further reward the Daily Mail had him as their man of the match. Good honest English football at its finest. That's what makes this league the best in the world, at least in the minds of people who don't get out much.

Definite straight red for assault with intent to harm. Maybe not as serious as Gabriel flicking his heel at Costa, that was life threatening whereas as this incident might have resulted in serious long term injury at worst.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/29/17/2EE8459700000578-3338402-image-a-65_1448818434905.jpg

Chris Sutton said his momentum took him in to Alexis, nothing to see here and he (Sutton) was more worried about that cameraman. :doh:

[Letters]

Dont know if Zimm is stubborn, but he sure has been right more than any other on here.
:haha:



That is all.

[Power n Glory]

Bet Giroud didn't feature in them. In fact, unusually, in 6 pages of match reaction i don't think he's been mentioned once, suspect not many of you realised he was playing. I've stuck up for him in the past but he was seriously bad today. Unless of course he was trying to impersonate a sack of shit in which case he was exceptional

I’ve said many times he’s a hindrance to our play. Since coming back into our team the performances have gotten worse and worse.

[Globalgunner]

I’ve said many times he’s a hindrance to our play. Since coming back into our team the performances have gotten worse and worse.

Problem is he is better than any of our other options up front. Pls dont mention Theo again. 1 he is near invisible, 2. He is not a striker.

Giroud is the 3rd tier of striker and the best we have got. Says all you need to hear about this current arsenal squad. Chock full of averageness

[Niall_Quinn]

Apart from Campbell, all 23 Arsenal players have been injured in 2015.

It's a bit unfair to single him out as he's spent most of his time at other clubs so didn't have as many opportunities to be injured.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Dont know if Zimm is stubborn, but he sure has been right more than any other on here. He had called the dinosaurs decline 6 or 7 years before most on here.

Falcao. :bow:

He's having a stormer of a season.

[Letters]

It's a bit unfair to single him out as he's spent most of his time at other clubs so didn't have as many opportunities to be injured.

:lol:

[Letters]

I was thinking this on the way in, is it really a case of no team being that good. People have described the league as mediocre but surely mediocre is the German/Spanish or French league where one or two teams totally dominate. Is it not more of the case that our league is competitive all the way down and if we stay in touch that could give us an outside change knowing teams around us could lose to any of the other sides in the league.

There are no standout teams - we don't have a Barca or a Bayern in the English league. We should have with the money City and Chelsea can throw around but our best teams are nowhere near as good as the best teams in Germany and Spain. But we do have more depth in England which potentially makes the league more interesting.
Either way, somehow we're still in the mix. We made a hash of the last 2 league games, we can't keep doing that but win the next 2 and we'll face City with the chance to leapfrog them. If we win the next 3 then things will look a lot rosier.

[LDG]

There are no standout teams - we don't have a Barca or a Bayern in the English league. We should have with the money City and Chelsea can throw around but our best teams are nowhere near as good as the best teams in Germany and Spain. But we do have more depth in England which potentially makes the league more interesting.
Either way, somehow we're still in the mix. We made a hash of the last 2 league games, we can't keep doing that but win the next 2 and we'll face City with the chance to leapfrog them. If we win the next 3 then things will look a lot rosier.

With no Alexis, Cazorla, Koscielny, Walcott or Coquelin.

Hmm. Forgive me if I'm slightly pessimistic of achieving that.

[Letters]

We don't need any of those players to win the next 2.
They'd come in handy for the City game though, obviously. I'm not sure how badly we've broken him :(

[selassie]

There are no standout teams - we don't have a Barca or a Bayern in the English league. We should have with the money City and Chelsea can throw around but our best teams are nowhere near as good as the best teams in Germany and Spain. But we do have more depth in England which potentially makes the league more interesting.
Either way, somehow we're still in the mix. We made a hash of the last 2 league games, we can't keep doing that but win the next 2 and we'll face City with the chance to leapfrog them. If we win the next 3 then things will look a lot rosier.

Yeah, I think the league is more competitive here than in say Spain or Germany but...the top teams in England are now miles behind our equivalents in Spain, and to a lesser degree Germany, well Bayern and Dortmund given their form this season are better than anything we have to offer and by some distance. I think the top end teams in PL are as weak as they were many years ago when PL teams struggled in Europe.
Of course we are in the mix for the title, but so are Leicester, Spurs and Liverpool, along with the Manchester clubs. I don't think the fact we are in the mix is a sign of progress, it's a sign of how inconsistent many teams have been this season.

[selassie]

We don't need any of those players to win the next 2.
They'd come in handy for the City game though, obviously. I'm not sure how badly we've broken him :(

You are joking right?

[LDG]

We don't need any of those players to win the next 2.
They'd come in handy for the City game though, obviously. I'm not sure how badly we've broken him :(

We fucked up the last two with (most of) them.

[Letters]

We fucked up the last two with (most of) them.

And smashed Dinamo in between who are better than either. :shrug:
There's no logic to football results a lot of the time.

[Letters]

You are joking right?

Have a think about the probable starting 11 with all the injuries. On paper it should smash Sunderland and Villa.
Whether it will...well, who knows.

[LDG]

Have a think about the probable starting 11 with all the injuries. On paper it should smash Sunderland and Villa.
Whether it will...well, who knows.

Chech

Bellend Merts Gabriel Monreal

Flamini

Ox Ramsey Ozil Campbell

Giroud




Defence is ok, but Midfield (Ozil aside) stinks, and Giroud is woefully off form.

[Letters]

That side should still be beating Sunderland and Villa.
Whether they will...

[Bumble]

That side should still be beating Sunderland and Villa.
Whether they will...

Villa yes because they are shocking and off form, I would like them to stay up but will be stunned if that happens. If we don't score a couple against them then there are real problems. Sunderland though have won 3 out of 4 or something and have Alladyce in charge so will be difficult to beat and that could easily be 1-1.

[Bumble]

Giroud plays well when there is competition but he is currently the main man as both Walcott and Welbeck are out. So his performances slump and gets all moany.

[Niall_Quinn]

Chech

Bellend Merts Gabriel Monreal

Flamini

Ox Ramsey Ozil Campbell

Giroud




Defence is ok, but Midfield (Ozil aside) stinks, and Giroud is woefully off form.

Half of those players are due to be injured in training this week so guess again.

[Niall_Quinn]

Giroud plays well when there is competition but he is currently the main man as both Walcott and Welbeck are out. So his performances slump and gets all moany.

Welbeck? Who he?

[Bumble]

Welbeck? Who he?

you know, the guy who was out for around 2-3 weeks.

[Power n Glory]

Problem is he is better than any of our other options up front. Pls dont mention Theo again. 1 he is near invisible, 2. He is not a striker.

Giroud is the 3rd tier of striker and the best we have got. Says all you need to hear about this current arsenal squad. Chock full of averageness

Your hard headedness over the Theo debate is ridiculous. I won’t go over it again in detail but there is an element to his game and component that we badly (speed and mobility) need up front and it pisses me off that we never explore the possibilities despite the countless times we've gotten this sort of result against such teams with these tactics.

[Letters]

Villa yes because they are shocking and off form, I would like them to stay up but will be stunned if that happens. If we don't score a couple against them then there are real problems. Sunderland though have won 3 out of 4 or something and have Alladyce in charge so will be difficult to beat and that could easily be 1-1.

They've won the last 2 but we are at home...if we fun that one up then I'll join the others cutting themselves.

[AFC Leveller]

we drew 0-0 at home to them last season when they were in a relegation fight, wouldnt be surprised if the same thing happens this time, esp with all the injuries we have.

[Dial Square Old Boy]

63% possession :bow:

and only one goal. Usual hatful of chances with little delivery. Seems to happen rather too much.

[Letters]

we drew 0-0 at home to them last season when they were in a relegation fight, wouldnt be surprised if the same thing happens this time, esp with all the injuries we have.

We did, but we were firmly in "let's just finish top 3 and win the FA Cup mode" by then.
I would be surprised if the same thing happens.

[Letters]

and only one goal. Usual hatful of chances with little delivery. Seems to happen rather too much.

It seemed to me that the main problem was a hatful of possession but that many chances, very few clear cut ones. Very little cutting edge yesterday, that's what concerned me.

[Globalgunner]

Your hard headedness over the Theo debate is ridiculous. I won’t go over it again in detail but there is an element to his game and component that we badly (speed and mobility) need up front and it pisses me off that we never explore the possibilities despite the countless times we've gotten this sort of result against such teams with these tactics.

Yeah right. 56 goals in 10 seasons with us. Just what we need.

[Marc Overmars]

Initial fears that Alexis could be out for 3 weeks. Probably true given it's a hamstring.

*sigh*

[Niall_Quinn]

Initial fears that Alexis could be out for 3 weeks. Probably true given it's a hamstring.

*sigh*

3 weeks ?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not 2?

Fuck! That's bad. What is an Arsenal 3 weeks in real earth time?

[IBK]

You know, part of me thinks that maybe Alexis needs some time out anyway. Probably the same part that is resigned to another battle for the fourth place cup this season. I just can't understand that a manager with a very serious and pressing fitness issue at his club keeps on overplaying players; risking them when they are carrying knocks and bringing them back too early. It has to be something to do with his footballing philosophy that he would rather we were stretched thin than impede players' progress by purchasing proper cover. Arrogance?

[Niall_Quinn]

You know, part of me thinks that maybe Alexis needs some time out anyway. Probably the same part that is resigned to another battle for the fourth place cup this season. I just can't understand that a manager with a very serious and pressing fitness issue at his club keeps on overplaying players; risking them when they are carrying knocks and bringing them back too early. It has to be something to do with his footballing philosophy that he would rather we were stretched thin than impede players' progress by purchasing proper cover. Arrogance?

Are you part of the media? It is not for the media to choose who plays and who should be rested. Thank you for your interest in our affairs. How many substitutions have you made? Now fuck off.

[fakeyank]

win the next 2 and we'll face City with the chance to leapfrog them. If we win the next 3 then things will look a lot rosier.

:haha: :haha:

Thats the sort of statement that keeps this board going.. we need more of this. Seriously!! :lol:

I think you have done more for this message board than the rest of us combined. What a great way to keep this place ticking! :bow:

[fakeyank]

Are you part of the media? It is not for the media to choose who plays and who should be rested. Thank you for your interest in our affairs. How many substitutions have you made? Now fuck off.

:haha: :haha: :gp:

I spit out the water I was drinking when I read that!

[IBK]

Are you part of the media? It is not for the media to choose who plays and who should be rested. Thank you for your interest in our affairs. How many substitutions have you made? Now fuck off.

:lol: joking apart, though - is it not the perfect storm that we have a manager who does not have to account to his owner or board, and yet generally avoids any proper questions from the Fourth Estate too?

[Bumble]

:lol: joking apart, though - is it not the perfect storm that we have a manager who does not have to account to his owner or board, and yet generally avoids any proper questions from the Fourth Estate too?
I don't think resting Sanchez was the call yesterday, he needs to play. Particularly away from home, as had we drawn with him in the side Wenger would have been criticised. The time to give Sanchez a break was perhaps at half time in the Bayern game when we had no chance or even at home against Dinamo when we should have enough to beat them.

The only issue is that who would replace him when we have so few fit options.

[IBK]

I don't think resting Sanchez was the call yesterday, he needs to play. Particularly away from home, as had we drawn with him in the side Wenger would have been criticised. The time to give Sanchez a break was perhaps at half time in the Bayern game when we had no chance or even at home against Dinamo when we should have enough to beat them.

The only issue is that who would replace him when we have so few fit options.

No issues with that, mate. My point is a more general one. Our injury situation is bordering on mismanagement, and IMO this is partly because there is noone to hold our manager to account.

[selassie]

Have a think about the probable starting 11 with all the injuries. On paper it should smash Sunderland and Villa.
Whether it will...well, who knows.

We should win, not sure about smash though, we can barely field an 11 at the moment. Call me a pessimist but given our recent league form I'm not overly confident of beating anyone.

[Power n Glory]

Yeah right. 56 goals in 10 seasons with us. Just what we need.

Are you retarded? What part of the argument are finding hard to process?

[Niall_Quinn]

:lol: joking apart, though - is it not the perfect storm that we have a manager who does not have to account to his owner or board, and yet generally avoids any proper questions from the Fourth Estate too?

Of course, the perfect storm. And it doesn't appear he lets anyone have an opinion on the training ground either, certainly not when it comes to defending. There's no way Bould would allow the shit that goes on - turning backs on the ball, leaving men unmarked at set-pieces, getting out-muscled. This would all be weird but acceptable if we were properly challenging for the big prizes but we never get a sniff. At the chavs, gypos or utd this wouldn't be permitted. Not even at Liverpool. Wenger would have been sacked 5 times over by now if he'd have been at any of those clubs. I think we confuse doing the right thing, the Arsenal way, with complacency. In sport you keep moving forward or you fall behind. This comfortable bullshit we get every season shouldn't be acceptable. It shouldn't be for the fans to be pro-Wenger or anti-Wenger, it should be for the board to realise objectives aren't being met and to act.

Of course objectives ARE being met. Money. A two decade payday from that 4th place trophy and last 16 berth in the CL. And so skilfully sold and stage managed many fans are in awe of the mediocrity. Doesn't change the reality. In terms of the size of this club and the results returned, particularly against our major rivals, we're a long way behind par. As you say, questioning it is not tolerated in certain quarters.

[Letters]

:haha: :haha:

Thats the sort of statement that keeps this board going.. we need more of this. Seriously!! :lol:

I think you have done more for this message board than the rest of us combined. What a great way to keep this place ticking! :bow:
Excellent debating :good:

[fakeyank]

Excellent debating :good:

Not much left to debate. We all know (including you) whats going to happen over the course of the season. I'll more than likely come back and debate you on the same topic again to keep this place ticking. I am here to do my part to keep GW alive! :)

[Globalgunner]

Are you retarded? What part of the argument are finding hard to process?

Careful. Those veins in your neck will let go any minute now
You remind me of Cripps. Walcott love was his greatest flaw.

[Power n Glory]

Careful. Those veins in your neck will let go any minute now
You remind me of Cripps. Walcott love was his greatest flaw.

Even you should be able to figure out that there is a vital component Walcott brings to this team. Something Giroud lacks but what our most successful strikers under Wenger had. Speed and mobility. Without that we's never have beaten Bayern or Man Utd. Try to understand what I'm saying here even if we disagree on Walcott being the solution. Don't bring up a useless stat that blurs the argument and ignores the fact that we haven't been the same team since his injury.

[Xhaka Can’t]

:haha: :haha: :gp:

I spit out the cum I was swallowing when I read that!

:sick:

[fakeyank]

Even you should be able to figure out that there is a vital component Walcott brings to this team. Something Giroud lacks but what our most successful strikers under Wenger had. Speed and mobility. Without that we's never have beaten Bayern or Man Utd. Try to understand what I'm saying here even if we disagree on Walcott being the solution. Don't bring up a useless stat that blurs the argument and ignores the fact that we haven't been the same team since his injury.

Walcott is good (not great) and we can do better. My problem with Walcott is that he is hardly ever fit, and I am tired of the club gambling so much on crocks. Another person who I think is a great player is Rosicky, but what is the point of him? He has hardly made any significant impact over a season for us. I'd rather we get rid of crocks like Walcott, Wilshere and Rosicky and invest in people who can stay fit for 10 games at a stretch!

[Letters]

Not much left to debate. We all know (including you) whats going to happen over the course of the season.
If I knew what was going to happen I wouldn't bother following it. Nor would you.

[fakeyank]

If I knew what was going to happen I wouldn't bother following it. Nor would you.

I have friends who have partners that have cheated on them. I tell them never to go back to that person. They still do, hoping for a different outcome... it ALWAYS ends in tears. Heart hopes but the brain knows whats going to happen.

[Letters]

:lol: that's a very good analogy, well played. :good:
But we really don't know, who knew we'd win 2 FA Cups in a row?
We've been wobbling a bit of late but no one is being properly consistent this year, the league is looking more competitive all round. While we're in the hunt I'll believe we have a chance although the annual pile up of injuries is starting to take its toll and if we fail to challenge this year then Wenger should be sacked if only for failing to sort that out.

[Power n Glory]

The FA Cup you can get lucky with the teams you draw. It's more unpredictable but the league doesn't work like that. 38 games and you face everyone.

[Kano]

:lol: that's a very good analogy, well played. :good:
But we really don't know, who knew we'd win 2 FA Cups in a row?
We've been wobbling a bit of late but no one is being properly consistent this year, the league is looking more competitive all round. While we're in the hunt I'll believe we have a chance although the annual pile up of injuries is starting to take its toll and if we fail to challenge this year then Wenger should be sacked if only for failing to sort that out.
It's far easier to take a negative outlook because the odds are always stacked in that persons favour.

[Letters]

The FA Cup you can get lucky with the teams you draw. It's more unpredictable but the league doesn't work like that. 38 games and you face everyone.

Two years ago we played 3 of the top 6 in the Cup. All at home, but still. We didn't get easy draws. Last year we had a reasonable run but we had to go to Old Trafford.
We earned our trophies.

The league is harder but you don't have to win every game, you just have to finish above everyone else. And right now everyone else are as inconsistent as us, and that gives us a chance.

[Power n Glory]

Walcott is good (not great) and we can do better. My problem with Walcott is that he is hardly ever fit, and I am tired of the club gambling so much on crocks. Another person who I think is a great player is Rosicky, but what is the point of him? He has hardly made any significant impact over a season for us. I'd rather we get rid of crocks like Walcott, Wilshere and Rosicky and invest in people who can stay fit for 10 games at a stretch!

Theo being a long term solution up front is debatable but what should be clear is that we need to start bringing in strikers with pace. Go back to what we used to have in players like Wright, Anelka, Henry or even Ade.

The injury situation is ridiculous. I’m not sure clearing out the ‘injury prone’ players is the best way either because I think Wenger’s regime is the problem. Wilshere is a clear example. He picked up an injury on international duty, we misdiagnosed the extent of the problem and let him play on, it got worse and we found he’d actually been playing with broken bones! To make matters worse, we rush him back from that injury and he then picks up another injury. :doh: And we don’t learn from this because we’ve done the same with Ramsey recently. We’ve done it with Cesc. We’ll probably rush Sanchez back. It’s a serious problem and one we’ll continue to have as long as Wenger is here. He refuses to take responsibility for our injury problems. He’s practically blaming Sanchez for making himself available to play.

[Power n Glory]

Two years ago we played 3 of the top 6 in the Cup. All at home, but still. We didn't get easy draws. Last year we had a reasonable run but we had to go to Old Trafford.
We earned our trophies.

The league is harder but you don't have to win every game, you just have to finish above everyone else. And right now everyone else are as inconsistent as us, and that gives us a chance.

We were lucky to have two finals where we didn’t face bigger opponents. That’s the luck element. That’s why smaller teams can have more hope of winning a cup over the league. This shouldn’t need explaining.

[Letters]

But we faced and beat those bigger opponents earlier in the competition :shrug:
There's always luck in football. Moreso in one off games which is what cup competitions are all about.
You still have to turn up on the day and get the result, something we notably failed to do in big cup games in the past.

I'm not sure what we're debating here, we seem to be agreeing with each other.

[selassie]

Theo being a long term solution up front is debatable but what should be clear is that we need to start bringing in strikers with pace. Go back to what we used to have in players like Wright, Anelka, Henry or even Ade.

The injury situation is ridiculous. I’m not sure clearing out the ‘injury prone’ players is the best way either because I think Wenger’s regime is the problem. Wilshere is a clear example. He picked up an injury on international duty, we misdiagnosed the extent of the problem and let him play on, it got worse and we found he’d actually been playing with broken bones! To make matters worse, we rush him back from that injury and he then picks up another injury. :doh: And we don’t learn from this because we’ve done the same with Ramsey recently. We’ve done it with Cesc. We’ll probably rush Sanchez back. It’s a serious problem and one we’ll continue to have as long as Wenger is here. He refuses to take responsibility for our injury problems. He’s practically blaming Sanchez for making himself available to play.

:gp:

[Power n Glory]

:lol: that's a very good analogy, well played. :good:
But we really don't know, who knew we'd win 2 FA Cups in a row?
We've been wobbling a bit of late but no one is being properly consistent this year, the league is looking more competitive all round. While we're in the hunt I'll believe we have a chance although the annual pile up of injuries is starting to take its toll and if we fail to challenge this year then Wenger should be sacked if only for failing to sort that out.

It’s simple really. Just go back to what you and FY were discussing. Nobody knew we’d win two FA Cups in a row but nobody would have had us written off for it either because it comes down to the luck of the draw. You never know which teams you will face. You might have an easier run. The league is different totally different and why people are so pessimistic.

[Letters]

Plenty of people had written off our chances of winning a trophy under Wenger again, any trophy. So I don't agree.
And we didn't win them because we got the luck of the draw, we had tough games both years - tougher than the teams we went out to the two previous years (Blackburn at home, Sunderland away).

[Power n Glory]

Plenty of people had written off our chances of winning a trophy under Wenger again, any trophy. So I don't agree.
And we didn't win them because we got the luck of the draw, we had tough games both years - tougher than the teams we went out to the two previous years (Blackburn at home, Sunderland away).

Which is harder to win? The league or FA Cup?

This isn't rocket science.

[Letters]

No, it isn't rocket science. But that doesn't change what I said.
I saw people. On here. Predict we'd never win a trophy under Wenger again.

[Bumble]

No issues with that, mate. My point is a more general one. Our injury situation is bordering on mismanagement, and IMO this is partly because there is noone to hold our manager to account.
I keep hearing that there are issues with the training facilities, the pitches are firm so they look good but with little give. I think Keown made the point that once the training facilities he found that he started getting more back injuries because of it.

Impact injuries are fine as they happen. But repeated strains there must be something going on as other teams don't seem to face this injury façade as regularly. Although to be fair I probably don't pay as much attention to it as I know Aguero and Silva have been out a while, and Aguero does have twangy hamstrings I think anyway.

It cant just be the players are injury prone because it just seems to be all of them and those odds seem very odd. Although just read that Diaby is out for the season haven't not played for Marseilles so maybe it is just the players.

[Dein-machine]

Wenger is simply a walking disaster for us as a club wanting to progress. The past months failure to secure the points we should have done is quite simply down to his disastrous transfer policy & lack of quality in depth - simple as that.
Look back to the posts in the summer when we realised he wasnt buying cover or competition for CB & Coq along with the obvious need for a goalscorer. We all knew what would happen. I keep saying to Letters that I dont get excited when we go 5 games unbeaten & top the league because I know what happens next - deep down we all do & look whats happened next. Outplayed at home by the Spuds & then 1 point out of 6 against West Brom & Norwich. It is so unbelievably obvious that Wenger doesnt have the ability to make the next step up. As a few have said before, we are getting top 4's & recently winning the FA cup despite Wenger not because of him. His lack of transfer policy meant that at some stage on Sun & possibly again this weekend, when Ozil looks up to try & find a breakthrough pass he will have the statue of Giroud & the clueless Campbell as his only outlet - Wenger is costing our decent players the chance to win things - and people on here slag of RVP & Cesc ---- Sanchez & Ozil will be doing exactly the same very soon.

[Power n Glory]

No, it isn't rocket science. But that doesn't change what I said.
I saw people. On here. Predict we'd never win a trophy under Wenger again.

That speaks to how little faith people had in Wenger considering the Birmingham fiasco. Zero to do with which competition is more difficult. And you're talking to me. I said way before we won the FA Cup that we should have at least picked up some domestic cups on our run and you agreed.

To put this into context.

Are the following runs more difficult than the league?

2014 FA Cup Run
3rd Tottenham Hotspur (h) 2–0
4th Coventry City (h) 4–0
5th Liverpool (h) 2–1
6th Everton (h) 4–1
SF Wigan Athletic (n) 1-1 Penalties
F Hull City (n)


2015 FA Cup
3rd Hull City (h) 2–0
4th Brighton & Hove Albion (a) 3–2
5th Middlesbrough (h) 2–0
QF Manchester United (a) 2–1
SF Reading (n) 2–1 (after extra time)
F Aston Villa (n) 4 - 0

[Özim]

That speaks to how little faith people had in Wenger considering the Birmingham fiasco. Zero to do with which competition is more difficult. And you're talking to me. I said way before we won the FA Cup that we should have at least picked up some domestic cups on our run and you agreed.

To put this into context.

Are the following runs more difficult than the league?

2014 FA Cup Run
3rd Tottenham Hotspur (h) 2–0
4th Coventry City (h) 4–0
5th Liverpool (h) 2–1
6th Everton (h) 4–1
SF Wigan Athletic (n) 1-1 Penalties
F Hull City (n)


2015 FA Cup
3rd Hull City (h) 2–0
4th Brighton & Hove Albion (a) 3–2
5th Middlesbrough (h) 2–0
QF Manchester United (a) 2–1
SF Reading (n) 2–1 (after extra time)
F Aston Villa (n) 4 - 0

Neither of those two FA Cup runs are that hard, in the 1st one we played all the better teams at home, which is an advantage, so we were somewhat lucky with the draw.

Last years run was full of average teams, even Man U weren't all that good even though an away way was decent.

[Letters]

That speaks to how little faith people had in Wenger considering the Birmingham fiasco. Zero to do with which competition is more difficult.
I agree. But people were still wrong. And those people are now just as confidently predicting other things, still because of their lack of faith in Wenger.
You keep arguing against something I'm not saying.
Yes, of course the league is harder. And until we go and win it people's understandable doubts will remain. But they are doubts, not givens. We don't KNOW what will happen. If I KNEW how the season would pan out, and we'd fail, I wouldn't watch. It would be like re-watching, well, say that Birmingham game. Why put yourself through that again?
Part of the selling point of sport is it's unpredictability and while the money has made it more predictable we still don't KNOW what will happen.
That was my point.

[Globalgunner]

When people have time to waste. They spend it arguing with Letters.:banghead:

[Letters]

Neither of those two FA Cup runs are that hard, in the 1st one we played all the better teams at home, which is an advantage, so we were somewhat lucky with the draw.

Last years run was full of average teams, even Man U weren't all that good even though an away way was decent.

Utd only lost 4 times at home all season, including our game. And they were all silly ones, they didn't lose in the league at home to any of the other big boys. It's hardly a vintage Utd side but they finished top 4, they weren't a bad side last year. And it was the exact sort of game we have traditionally messed up.

And so what about the runs? It's pretty rare for the FA Cup winners to play several of the big teams, they tend to knock each other out, slip on a banana skin or become victims of a giant killing. To win it you just have to win on the day and as the rounds go on the pressure builds. On previous occasions we've lost our nerve, last 2 years we didn't. It's better than we've had, we need to push on for the bigger prizes now. For all our wobbles this year we're in the mix which is more than most people were predicting, you included when you kept banging on about our poor start being like last season which it clearly hasn't been.

[Power n Glory]

I agree. But people were still wrong. And those people are now just as confidently predicting other things, still because of their lack of faith in Wenger.
You keep arguing against something I'm not saying.
Yes, of course the league is harder. And until we go and win it people's understandable doubts will remain. But they are doubts, not givens. We don't KNOW what will happen. If I KNEW how the season would pan out, and we'd fail, I wouldn't watch. It would be like re-watching, well, say that Birmingham game. Why put yourself through that again?
Part of the selling point of sport is it's unpredictability and while the money has made it more predictable we still don't KNOW what will happen.
That was my point.

You keep trying to make out as if our FA Cup run was hard. It really wasn't.

[Letters]

No I don't. As I said above, it's rare for a team to have a very hard FA Cup run and play several of the big boys.
My argument is nothing to do with how easy or hard our FA Cup run was.

[Letters]

When people have time to waste. They spend it arguing with Letters.:banghead:

In this case, interestingly, but arguing against something I'm not saying :blink:

[Power n Glory]

In this case, interestingly, but arguing against something I'm not saying :blink:


You said we didn't get easy draws. We had tough draws you said. We faced big opponents early in the competition. We played 3 of the top 6

.....excuse me for getting it wrong.

[selassie]

Plenty of people had written off our chances of winning a trophy under Wenger again, any trophy. So I don't agree.
And we didn't win them because we got the luck of the draw, we had tough games both years - tougher than the teams we went out to the two previous years (Blackburn at home, Sunderland away).

Do you think we'll win the league again under Wenger?

[fakeyank]

I am very happy with our FA Cup successes, but a club that charges the highest ticket prices in the world shouldnt be bragging about it like we won the league 2 seasons in a row. To put it into perspective, Harry Redknapp and Portsmouth won a FA Cup too.

[Letters]

Do you think we'll win the league again under Wenger?

I believe the squad we've got now has a chance to and we've shown we can finish the job in high pressure games, notably the big Cup games over the last 2 years but Utd at home was a positive sign this season too.

We should have challenged last year but our awful start gave us no chance. The FA Cup win gave Wenger a stay of execution and I, for one, am OK with that. But this year we have to properly challenge. The money is there for us to seriously compete now. The important thing this year was to not get off to a bad start and be out of it before we got going. For all our wobbles here and there we've also got some good league results, we went on that good run of 5 games, and no-one else has gone on a long, consistent run. So, for now, we're in touch. So long as that remains the case I'll believe we have a chance.

You're asking if we think we will win it under Wenger again and the answer to that is I don't know for sure until we do. Do I think we can though? Yes I do. And my point, before I got dragged down a cul-de-sac, was that none of us know for sure right now. If we did we wouldn't watch. There would be no point. The "last 10 years" argument is spurious. For most of that time we haven't had a squad good enough to compete, the new financial deals saw the signing of s different level of player. It's already yielded 2 trophies and a long enough league run to indicate we do have a squad good enough to compete over the course of a season. Doubts will remain till we actually do it but I believe we can.

If we fail to properly challenge because of the failure to sign properly in the summer or the annual injury pile up which cannot be just bad luck then Wenger should be sacked. But I, for one, will wait till it happens and despite the recent wobble it hasn't happened yet.

[Letters]

I am very happy with our FA Cup successes, but a club that charges the highest ticket prices in the world shouldnt be bragging about it like we won the league 2 seasons in a row.

They aren't.

[selassie]

I believe the squad we've got now has a chance to and we've shown we can finish the job in high pressure games, notably the big Cup games over the last 2 years but Utd at home was a positive sign this season too.

We should have challenged last year but our awful start gave us no chance. The FA Cup win gave Wenger a stay of execution and I, for one, am OK with that. But this year we have to properly challenge. The money is there for us to seriously compete now. The important thing this year was to not get off to a bad start and be out of it before we got going. For all our wobbles here and there we've also got some good league results, we went on that good run of 5 games, and no-one else has gone on a long, consistent run. So, for now, we're in touch. So long as that remains the case I'll believe we have a chance.

You're asking if we think we will win it under Wenger again and the answer to that is I don't know for sure until we do. Do I think we can though? Yes I do. And my point, before I got dragged down a cul-de-sac, was that none of us know for sure right now. If we did we wouldn't watch. There would be no point. The "last 10 years" argument is spurious. For most of that time we haven't had a squad good enough to compete, the new financial deals saw the signing of s different level of player. It's already yielded 2 trophies and a long enough league run to indicate we do have a squad good enough to compete over the course of a season. Doubts will remain till we actually do it but I believe we can.

If we fail to properly challenge because of the failure to sign properly in the summer or the annual injury pile up which cannot be just bad luck then Wenger should be sacked. But I, for one, will wait till it happens and despite the recent wobble it hasn't happened yet.

Fair enough. I hear what you are saying about none of us knowing but I'm of the opinion that we can't and won't win the league again with Wenger in charge due to his flawed approach.

I'd love to be proven wrong but I see no difference in his approach now to what I did 5 years ago. Sure he has improved the first XI and is more willing to splash on special players, but outside of that the same mistakes are being repeated and quite frankly he has no excuses now, he has absolutely nothing and nobody to hide behind.

[Letters]

You said we didn't get easy draws. We had tough draws you said. We faced big opponents early in the competition. We played 3 of the top 6

.....excuse me for getting it wrong.

As in almost any Cup run we had some easy draws and some tough ones.
Our runs were neither unusually easy hard or easy. For comparison, here are the runs of the previous 3 FA Cup winners before us:

Wigan:

Bournemouth home D1-1
Bournemouth away W1-0
Macclesfield Town away W1-0
Huddersfield Town away W4-1
Everton away W3-0
Millwall neutral W2-0
Manchester City neutral W1-0

Chelsea:
Portsmouth home W4-0
Queens Park Rangers away W1-0
Birmingham City home D1-1
Birmingham City away W2-0
Leicester City home W5-2
Tottenham Hotspur neutral W5-1
Liverpool neutral W2-1

City:
Leicester City away D2-2
Leicester City home W4-2
Notts County away D1-1
Notts County home W5-0
Aston Villa home W3-0
Reading home W1-0
Manchester United neutral W1-0
Stoke City neutral W1-0

[Letters]

Fair enough. I hear what you are saying about none of us knowing but I'm of the opinion that we can't and won't win the league again with Wenger in charge due to his flawed approach.

I'd love to be proven wrong but I see no difference in his approach now to what I did 5 years ago. Sure he has improved the first XI and is more willing to splash on special players, but outside of that the same mistakes are being repeated and quite frankly he has no excuses now, he has absolutely nothing and nobody to hide behind.

I think my point is I see no difference in his approach now to what I did 15 years ago. I don't think he's fundamentally changed. And we won titles then. It's arguable that football has changed and he's failed to keep up but a big factor in the last decade has been the billionaires. People keep saying that's an excuse but look at where the trophies have ended up. Obviously we'll never know but I reckon we'd have won a title or two in the last decade without them. Now we have the money to compete again and so far this season we are. I agree there are no excuses now, this year we have to properly challenge till the end. Nothing else is good enough. I've seen a few things which make me believe we can.

[fakeyank]

They aren't.

Sorry, not the club. Wenger's armed forces are.

[Letters]

Sorry, not the club. Wenger's armed forces are.

No, they aren't. Literally no-one has said that. Stop building ridiculous straw men.

[Power n Glory]

As in almost any Cup run we had some easy draws and some tough ones.
Our runs were neither unusually easy hard or easy. For comparison, here are the runs of the previous 3 FA Cup winners before us:

Wigan:

Bournemouth home D1-1
Bournemouth away W1-0
Macclesfield Town away W1-0
Huddersfield Town away W4-1
Everton away W3-0
Millwall neutral W2-0
Manchester City neutral W1-0

Chelsea:
Portsmouth home W4-0
Queens Park Rangers away W1-0
Birmingham City home D1-1
Birmingham City away W2-0
Leicester City home W5-2
Tottenham Hotspur neutral W5-1
Liverpool neutral W2-1

City:
Leicester City away D2-2
Leicester City home W4-2
Notts County away D1-1
Notts County home W5-0
Aston Villa home W3-0
Reading home W1-0
Manchester United neutral W1-0
Stoke City neutral W1-0

I think that puts things into perspective even further. It's not a trophy we really need players like Ozil and Sanchez to win for us. Anyone that has thought this trophy was beyond our reach hasn't come to that conclusion because they thought the level of competition was too good.

[fakeyank]

Stop building ridiculous straw men.

You mean our squad?

[Xhaka Can’t]

You mean our squad?

:lol:

[Power n Glory]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/alexis-sanchez-injury-not-serious-6935246

Reports saying the injury isn't that bad.

Maybe Wenger has asked Sanchez how he feels again. ;)

[Letters]

Maybe Wenger has asked Sanchez how he feels again. ;)
:lol: That's usually how we assess players recovering from injury.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think my point is I see no difference in his approach now to what I did 15 years ago. I don't think he's fundamentally changed. And we won titles then. It's arguable that football has changed and he's failed to keep up but a big factor in the last decade has been the billionaires. People keep saying that's an excuse but look at where the trophies have ended up. Obviously we'll never know but I reckon we'd have won a title or two in the last decade without them. Now we have the money to compete again and so far this season we are. I agree there are no excuses now, this year we have to properly challenge till the end. Nothing else is good enough. I've seen a few things which make me believe we can.

No, no, no and no.

There's a HUGE difference in his approach. His early teams were loaded with speed, power and fierce winners with that win at all costs mentality focused around a rock hard, in your face, never turn your back on the ball, back five. Then two vicious bastards in the middle feeding blinding counters from one end of the pitch to the opposition goal in seconds. It used to be fatal for the opposition to win a corner against us.

Then Wenger changed EVERYTHING and we've been second rate ever since, artificially elevated by some damn fine players like RvC who dragged the team up on their own. Wenger's vision, once Graham's back four expired, has been entertaining at times, less so for that dour period a few years back where he let the standards slide to the basement, but ultimately a flop. The fans know what we have been lacking for years, Vieira not being replaced for example. Wenger has had other ideas but none of those ideas have panned out. The change in tactics, the youth project, policies in the transfer windows - we always had a bit of money to spend but Wenger has spent it trying to prop up a philosophy that has failed for a decade. It's on him.

[selassie]

No, no, no and no.

There's a HUGE difference in his approach. His early teams were loaded with speed, power and fierce winners with that win at all costs mentality focused around a rock hard, in your face, never turn your back on the ball, back five. Then two vicious bastards in the middle feeding blinding counters from one end of the pitch to the opposition goal in seconds. It used to be fatal for the opposition to win a corner against us.

Then Wenger changed EVERYTHING and we've been second rate ever since, artificially elevated by some damn fine players like RvC who dragged the team up on their own. Wenger's vision, once Graham's back four expired, has been entertaining at times, less so for that dour period a few years back where he let the standards slide to the basement, but ultimately a flop. The fans know what we have been lacking for years, Vieira not being replaced for example. Wenger has had other ideas but none of those ideas have panned out. The change in tactics, the youth project, policies in the transfer windows - we always had a bit of money to spend but Wenger has spent it trying to prop up a philosophy that has failed for a decade. It's on him.

:gp:

Yep

[Power n Glory]

:lol: That's usually how we assess players recovering from injury.

Or the medical staff have told him to 'run it off'. :lol:

[Letters]

I don't think he changed everything, we've still got some very fast players like Bellerin and, if could ever stay fit, Walcott. That signing alone surely shows he values pace. And the ManYoo game this year where we blitzed them from the start could have come from The Invincibles season.
The lack of a strong captain has been a problem for a long time although I do think there are stronger characters in the team right now.
Project Youth wasn't a vanity project, it was a response to the stadium move. Maybe Wenger could have spent more in that era but I have no doubt he did what he did because he thought it best for the long term future of the club. And keeping us up there during that era while the billionaires ran amock and teams like Spurs and Liverpool spent big to try and get and stay into the top 4 was impressive.
Two years ago the new financial deals saw a clear change in transfer policy. The money was there, he started spending it. He failed to do that last summer, if that costs us then yes, it's on him.
Everything that happens is on him.
And tight now what's happening is we're 2 points off the top. We should be top but other teams are stumbling too. No-one has got a grip on the title so far this year, while we're in the mix I'll believe we have a chance.

[IBK]

I don't think he changed everything, we've still got some very fast players like Bellerin and, if could ever stay fit, Walcott. That signing alone surely shows he values pace. And the ManYoo game this year where we blitzed them from the start could have come from The Invincibles season.
The lack of a strong captain has been a problem for a long time although I do think there are stronger characters in the team right now.
Project Youth wasn't a vanity project, it was a response to the stadium move. Maybe Wenger could have spent more in that era but I have no doubt he did what he did because he thought it best for the long term future of the club. And keeping us up there during that era while the billionaires ran amock and teams like Spurs and Liverpool spent big to try and get and stay into the top 4 was impressive.
Two years ago the new financial deals saw a clear change in transfer policy. The money was there, he started spending it. He failed to do that last summer, if that costs us then yes, it's on him.
Everything that happens is on him.
And tight now what's happening is we're 2 points off the top. We should be top but other teams are stumbling too. No-one has got a grip on the title so far this year, while we're in the mix I'll believe we have a chance.

What's changed, IMHO is Wenger's ambition. When he first arrived at our club he was essentially a nobody - and was motivated to show the world that he was a winner and an innovator - which he did. He supported and greatly facilitated the stadium project because this fitted with his own football philosophy - a self sustaining big successful club - but also correctly saw his own role as key to this, and saw the advantages this would bring in terms of his unparalleled control and influence.

What happened during this process and since is twofold. First - the rise of the billionaire mega clubs. Second the megalomania that happens invariably once driven people attain longstanding power. The first gave Wenger another reason to explain our failure to win things. While there is undoubtedly some validity in this - IMHO it altered Wenger's view of himself and his legacy. Instead of being remembered for innovating and winning things, he now sees himself as a champion of doing things the right way, and being perhaps the only manager among Europe's 'elite' who can achieve sustained success without the financial 'doping' that he despises.

But 'success' for Wenger now means 'competing' rather than winning the league. And with our despicable owner we are in a perfect storm - because The situation suits both sides ideally. Wenger gets the power and control he needs to indulge his principles (not to mention one of the highest managerial salaries in the world). Kroenke gets to use the club as a cash cow, and has little, if any interest in us winning anything. No accountability on one side; no questions asked on the other.

And so we fans are left in our perpetual Groundhog Day as also rans - being shown enough each season to keep enough of us hopeful/loyal, but never enough for us to arrest the drift away from greatness that we have been experiencing for a decade.

[Letters]

Completely disagree about his ambition, but do agree with this:


the megalomania that happens invariably once driven people attain longstanding power.

I think that could be a problem. One could argue that trying to do things the "right" way in the current climate is significantly more ambitious than throwing money around till you win stuff. Any idiot can do that, given enough money and time. The signings of Ozil and Sanchez were an immediate response to the new financial deals. That showed that him not signing big before that wasn't just idealism. He was probably over-cautious in that era but he seemed to be taking a longer term view which now sees in a very healthy financial position.

[Niall_Quinn]

Completely disagree about his ambition, but do agree with this:



I think that could be a problem. One could argue that trying to do things the "right" way in the current climate is significantly more ambitious than throwing money around till you win stuff. Any idiot can do that, given enough money and time. The signings of Ozil and Sanchez were an immediate response to the new financial deals. That showed that him not signing big before that wasn't just idealism. He was probably over-cautious in that era but he seemed to be taking a longer term view which now sees in a very healthy financial position.

The signings of Ozil and Alexis don't show Wenger reverting to the methods of the past though, the methods that delivered on his philosophy of football and also delivered SUCCESS. He shirked on adding the additional pieces to complement two undoubtedly excellent signings. Theo could be one of those components, but we know all about his injury record and so does Wenger. Instead we have Bif, the antithesis of what is required up front to see a return to the aggressive, high tempo and dominant brand of football we used to play. He also failed, for the 10th season, to bring in the midfield general who could glue the whole thing together. Instead he plays Santi there, and good luck to Santi who had to learn a whole new game - he's done well but he's not the enforcer and the play maker we used to have in that role. Signing Ozil and Alexis and then chucking 50-70 mill on top as soon as those new finances came on tap, that was what was required. We all said it, we all knew it. Wenger thinks otherwise. Maybe he's planning to buy one of the required players per season, this season Cech, another valuable addition. But that means we get less from the players we have brought in while we wait for the team to come together over a protracted period. 2% away as always, we've laughed about that season after season but he has, indeed, kept us short.

The dopers have certainly made it more difficult but the idea a monkey with money can win the title doesn't stack up. Fergie put that idea to bed and look at the monkey van Gaal, how much is he spending and still intending to spend. The gypos have had a stream of chequebook managers and they have won titles, but they haven't bought a dynasty. There were several seasons, and you can include this season, where if we had not been Wenger's 2% short we could have challenged despite the doping. But Wenger didn't press when he had the opportunities and, as others have said, you have to look at his ambition and his priorities. With the amount of cash pouring into gypoland now, most of it not longer coming from the pockets of the owners but instead from third parties who want in on the action and the publicity, the gypos will soon be a self-sustainable operation themselves. The chavs are getting there too, albeit in a much slower and less impressive manner. So Wenger's idea of surviving on bread and water while the pennies stack up is not the only way to go and it could be argued it's the inferior route because we'll end up in the same position as the gypos but with none of the silverware to show for it.

Our big problem, we have a shit owner who has a track record of doing fuck all in a sporting context. He uses sport to squeeze earnings and build assets while missing all the underlying goals of sporting endeavour and excellence. Abramovic and the Arabs might be dopers and short-cut merchants, but at least they appear to have some understanding of what sport is supposed to be. Our greedy, inert, useless bastard is clueless. Arsenal is always expressed as a growing asset, always expressed in terms of security and sustainability and growth. This is banker talk, not football talk. Wenger appears to prioritise that mindset. In this respect he's ambitious beyond all others, like a fund manager who genuinely cares about returning a healthy pot, with the silver pot a secondary consideration and nice if we can get it . We are at 2% under minimal investment as always. The absolute minimum required to achieve the absolute acceptable minimum return and only after all expenditure is secured and then some by revenue. Ambitious it's not.

[Bumble]

Completely disagree about his ambition, but do agree with this:



I think that could be a problem. One could argue that trying to do things the "right" way in the current climate is significantly more ambitious than throwing money around till you win stuff. Any idiot can do that, given enough money and time. The signings of Ozil and Sanchez were an immediate response to the new financial deals. That showed that him not signing big before that wasn't just idealism. He was probably over-cautious in that era but he seemed to be taking a longer term view which now sees in a very healthy financial position.

Didn't Citeh make a profit in the last financial year, so doing things the "right" way. People always talk about transfer fees in terms of Wenger not spending but we had one of the largest wage bills. So that is where the money was spent and average young players Denilson etc in the hope they will come good. These guys were on very good money.

Its not all about money though otherwise Citeh or Chelsea would win every game. Good tactics, good on field attitude can win too. In the last decade we should have won more regardless of the actions of other teams. Top 4 was always the minimum as we were always top 4 in terms of wage bill.

[IBK]

Aye I don't think you can call it ambitious in the real sense when principles and balancing the books are the priority over success. In fact, once you have a manager with balancing the books as any kind of priority, then I think you are pretty much doomed to failure. And it is patently obvious as NQ says that we have a cynical prick of a venture capitalist in charge whose main difference from either the Arabs or the oligarchs is that he could not give a flying fuck whether his tenure sees our star slowly fade, as it is, as long as he keeps milking his asset. And IIRC, Wenger was always in support of Kroenke - unlike the one truly ambitious board member we have had in recent times - David Dein. I reckon Danny Fizman - whose love for the club cannot be denied - would be the first to recognise his mistake in selling out to Kroenke were he alive now.

[Özim]

Whatever you think about Chelsea and City their owners prioritise football and success first and then worked on the assumption that profitability would follow due to increased popularity around the world, in fact they've sold some of the shares to a Chinese company it appears to tap into that huge market.

We've basically spent little and achieved little, thus restricting our growth worldwide and our marketing has been pretty shocking on top of that, we've prioritised business over football thanks to Wenger and his cronies and haven't done it in the most efficient way possible either.

Wenger wants to always do things the right way and football and success in the real world is secondary to his view of success, CL qualification and restricting spending where possible basically.

He's a manager who just won't succeed in modern day football with his methods and what's more he won't acknowledge this or move on and let someone else have a go.

[IBK]

Whatever you think about Chelsea and City their owners prioritise football and success first and thenworked on the assumption that profitability would follow due to increasd popularity around the world, in fact they've sold some of the shares to a Chinese company it appears to tap into that huge market.

We've basically spent little and achieved little, thus restricting our growth worldwide and our marketing has bene pretty shocking on top of that, we've prioritised business over football thanks to Wenger and his cronies and haven't done it in the most efficient way possible either.

Wenger wants to always do things the right way and football and success in the real world is secondary to his view of success, CL qualification and restricting spending where possible basically.

He's a manager who just won't succeed in modern day football with his methods and what's more he won't acknowledge this or move on and let someone else have a go.

Agree with all that. It might be a shame that football has become so cynical, but like everything else - and most big sport - these days success overrides doing the right thing every time, and Wenger is swimming against the tide.

One question I have asked myself a lot recently is which top European side would employ Wenger as manager - and I'm not sure any would - at least those clubs with any ambition. If the question was which venture capitalist would employ Wenger - then I think he may truly be the most sought after manager on earth.

[Kano]

I think the reason why Chelsea and City owners have had no option but to concentrate on success primarily before making money is because of the lack of modern prestige associated with the clubs. They both needed lifting out of the duldrums and a new history created for them, rather than relying on trophies won fifty years and players only popular in the domestic game.

Whereas for Arsenal, we already had a worldwide rep, making us perfect fodder for a couple of billionaires to come along, invest nothing and sit back to collect far sooner than the oil barons will be able to.

[Letters]

Whatever you think about Chelsea and City their owners prioritise football and success first and then worked on the assumption that profitability would follow due to increased popularity around the world.

Bull. Shit.
They didn't care about profit in the long term, they were just having fun because they could.
Rich people don't buy yachts or expensive cars because they think long term it'll make them money, they're just having fun. This is the same on a much larger scale.

[IBK]

Bull. Shit.
They didn't care about profit in the long term, they were just having fun because they could.
Rich people don't buy yachts or expensive cars because they think long term it'll make them money, they're just having fun. This is the same on a much larger scale.

Recent times suggest otherwise. Anyways having fun wasn't the priority of Abramovich - 'respectability' and profile was - not to mention making him too high a profile target for a Russian assassin. As for Abu Dhabi - it was a hard-nosed investment decision to sink oil money into a pretty much gilt-edged investment.

[Kano]

Bull. Shit.
They didn't care about profit in the long term, they were just having fun because they could.
Rich people don't buy yachts or expensive cars because they think long term it'll make them money, they're just having fun. This is the same on a much larger scale.

Yes and no. They definitely care about money and return in the long run. They are Arab. Money is in their blood. It also works as the perfect investment point that allows the owner - UAE prime minister - to get closer to the UK government and buddy up the two countries even further.

[IBK]

I think the reason why Chelsea and City owners have had no option but to concentrate on success primarily before making money is because of the lack of modern prestige associated with the clubs. They both needed lifting out of the duldrums and a new history created for them, rather than relying on trophies won fifty years and players only popular in the domestic game.

Whereas for Arsenal, we already had a worldwide rep, making us perfect fodder for a couple of billionaires to come along, invest nothing and sit back to collect far sooner than the oil barons will be able to.

...and had is the important word here. It may be a side-effect of the massive investment elsewhere, but we are kidding ourselves if our fading star sees our reputation anything like it once was. Years ago on here I wondered whether we might end up something like the mighty Ajax - and I don't think its such a stupid question to ask.

[Letters]

Didn't Citeh make a profit in the last financial year, so doing things the "right" way.
Even if they did, I don't think they deserve much credit for that having previously spent half a billion quid to buy a few trophies.
Agree about our wage bill, we have wasted far too much money on average players.
It's too simplistic to say "Its not all about money though otherwise Citeh or Chelsea would win every game", if that were so you'd never get a cup shock, you'd never see us losing to West Brom or drawing with Norwich. Football isn't as simple as that but over a season if you've bought a squad with a lot of top quality players, outbid rivals so they can't get stronger and have a squad good enough to withstand an even Arsenalesque injury list, you have a massive advantage.
Yes, Fergie managed to best both of them but he was the GOAT, IMO.
I do agree we should have won more in the last decade but we've made some improvement in the last couple of years. I think we're now in a position to challenge. If injuries or the lack of top striker stop us properly competing this year then Wenger should be sacked. We're in the mix so far though, despite our wobbles.

[selassie]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/alexis-sanchez-injury-not-serious-6935246

Reports saying the injury isn't that bad.

Maybe Wenger has asked Sanchez how he feels again. ;)

:lol:

[Özim]

Agree with all that. It might be a shame that football has become so cynical, but like everything else - and most big sport - these days success overrides doing the right thing every time, and Wenger is swimming against the tide.

One question I have asked myself a lot recently is which top European side would employ Wenger as manager - and I'm not sure any would - at least those clubs with any ambition. If the question was which venture capitalist would employ Wenger - then I think he may truly be the most sought after manager on earth.

Football has changed a lot,but you have to move with the times and adapt.

I think he'd find another job, as some people still seem to have to rose-tinted view of him outside Arsenal, let's not forget Benitez is now at Real and his CV is hardly glowing these days, I'm not sure he would deserve one at a top club however as I just don't think he can deliver at the top level anymore.

[Kano]

...and had is the important word here. It may be a side-effect of the massive investment elsewhere, but we are kidding ourselves if our fading star sees our reputation anything like it once was. Years ago on here I wondered whether we might end up something like the mighty Ajax - and I don't think its such a stupid question to ask.
I'm actually convinced it is the other way. In this modern, consumerist world, marketing is king, and our marketing is far more aggressive around the world than it ever has been. We wouldn't be marked down as one of the richest in the world if our merchandise, sales and marketing teams weren't being successful. We had the 5/6th highest shirt sales a couple of years back I believe. What helps us far more than someone like Ajax is the marketing of the PL too, set alongside our own efforts it ensures we can remain an attractive prospect and retain the focus on our recent and more historic success. All horrible, disgusting words of course, as marketing deserves no place in our world, let alone football but it is what it is now.

[Özim]

Bull. Shit.
They didn't care about profit in the long term, they were just having fun because they could.
Rich people don't buy yachts or expensive cars because they think long term it'll make them money, they're just having fun. This is the same on a much larger scale.

I don't think anyone however rich just throws money at something without a long term plan to recoup some of it at least, rich people don't get mega rich without being attached to money.

There's other reasons of course, but ultimately making money out of it has to be the goal, I saw something about City being worth 4 times as much as they were when they were bought due to the Chinese investment.

[Özim]

I'm actually convinced it is the other way. In this modern, consumerist world, marketing is king, and our marketing is far more aggressive around the world than it ever has been. We wouldn't be marked down as one of the richest in the world if our merchandise, sales and marketing teams weren't being successful. We had the 5/6th highest shirt sales a couple of years back I believe. What helps us far more than someone like Ajax is the marketing of the PL too, set alongside our own efforts it ensures we can remain an attractive prospect and retain the focus on our recent and more historic success. All horrible, disgusting words of course, as marketing deserves no place in our world, let alone football but it is what it is now.

I'm not convinced about our marketing, our commercial deals have been poor in the past and even though they are better now there's a number of club who have trumped us since we signed them.

In addition we don't seem to be exploring the emerging markets as much as we should, China being the biggest surely. Ultimately though, without success we won't have anywhere near the same appeal, you get more fans though success, people wanted to be associated with winning teams and that's what will attract fans from Asian markets the most, our lack of success won't help us in that regard, nor will it help us with sponsorship, big brands want to be associated with winners, not so much people or teams who come 4th.

[selassie]

I'm not convinced about our marketing, our commercial deals have been poor in the past and even though they are better now there's a number of club who have trumped us since we signed them.

In addition we don't seem to be exploring the emerging markets as much as we should, China being the biggest surely. Ultimately though, without success we won't have anywhere near the same appeal, you get more fans though success, people wanted to be associated with winning teams and that's what will attract fans from Asian markets the most, our lack of success won't help us in that regard, nor will it help us with sponsorship, big brands want to be associated with winners, not so much people or teams who come 4th.

Yeah I agree with this and this is where Gazidis has to be held accountable. For all that bravado he came out a few years back about how Man City would love to be in our position or whatever nonsense he said, he looks like a right c*nt now given their commercial deals and ours.

[selassie]

...and had is the important word here. It may be a side-effect of the massive investment elsewhere, but we are kidding ourselves if our fading star sees our reputation anything like it once was. Years ago on here I wondered whether we might end up something like the mighty Ajax - and I don't think its such a stupid question to ask.

:gp:

This. We're still a big club in relative terms but we're not maximising our potential both on and off the pitch as per some of the comments in this thread.

It's almost like we have this laissez faire, almost arrogant attitude of it will all come to us, like we're above marketing ourselves globally like the other 3 do. I find it unbelievable that we have an american owner yet don't have a major presence over their like say United, Chelsea, Liverpool or even City. This attitude seems to run from the top of the club right through to the footballing side.

[Kano]

I'm not convinced about our marketing, our commercial deals have been poor in the past and even though they are better now there's a number of club who have trumped us since we signed them.

In addition we don't seem to be exploring the emerging markets as much as we should, China being the biggest surely. Ultimately though, without success we won't have anywhere near the same appeal, you get more fans though success, people wanted to be associated with winning teams and that's what will attract fans from Asian markets the most, our lack of success won't help us in that regard, nor will it help us with sponsorship, big brands want to be associated with winners, not so much people or teams who come 4th.

There will always be someone worse off or better than yourself on most occassions. I'm not going to sit here and praise any marketing department, given how worthless and inherently vapid they are. Especially ones that whore off part of their club for money. That said, we will follow suit in years to come. Arsenal seem to be doing alright in terms of positioning themselves around the world, always in the top of various shitty sales and value lists. We went to China a few years ago I believe, so give us time and we'll sell out to more rotten investors in time, just like City have.

[LDG]

I love it how football fans have become business analysts, medical experts, not to mention tactical experts.

In my day, you just used to get pissed and call the ref a cunt.

[fakeyank]

I use the Chelsea and City spending billions of dollars argument against their fans but the question really is... if the status quo was maintained and no Russian or Arab billionaires came in, what are the chances that a mid-level club like City, Chelsea, Tottenham, Villa etc would ever win a PL title?

While we may cry and crib about them spending billions of dollars to win the league, the top 3 status quo was not going to be challenged any other way. Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool were always making more money and had more prestige in the PL era due to their regular participation in the CL. Leeds tried to get into the mix, and we all know how that went tits up for them. I do despise the fact that Chelsea and City have won the way they won their titles, but what other option did they have? Not only them, what are the chances a team like Bournemouth, Everton or Newcastle have in a season to ever win the title?

Unless we go the American sports way of having a set amount for all clubs to spend in a season, we will just have to deal with it. We have the resources to be successful, we just do not have a world class manager. Our manager is stubborn, outdated and lacks a winning mentality.. we really missed a big opportunity not going for Klopp.

[fakeyank]

I love it how football fans have become business analysts, medical experts, not to mention tactical experts.

In my day, you just used to get pissed and call the ref a cunt.

Go away old man. Do you even know how to text, or use a smartphone?

[selassie]

I love it how football fans have become business analysts, medical experts, not to mention tactical experts.

In my day, you just used to get pissed and call the ref a cunt.

And accountants ;)

A couple of years back, if anybody dared suggest Wenger spend money we'd have countless debates about how it would bankrupt the club!

[Letters]

I use the Chelsea and City spending billions of dollars argument against their fans but the question really is... if the status quo was maintained and no Russian or Arab billionaires came in, what are the chances that a mid-level club like City, Chelsea, Tottenham, Villa etc would ever win a PL title?

While we may cry and crib about them spending billions of dollars to win the league, the top 3 status quo was not going to be challenged any other way. Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool were always making more money and had more prestige in the PL era due to their regular participation in the CL. Leeds tried to get into the mix, and we all know how that went tits up for them. I do despise the fact that Chelsea and City have won the way they won their titles, but what other option did they have? Not only them, what are the chances a team like Bournemouth, Everton or Newcastle have in a season to ever win the title?

Unless we go the American sports way of having a set amount for all clubs to spend in a season, we will just have to deal with it. We have the resources to be successful, we just do not have a world class manager. Our manager is stubborn, outdated and lacks a winning mentality.. we really missed a big opportunity not going for Klopp.
Of course there was no other way for them to have achieved success. Long gone are the days where a Wimbldon can battle their way up through the leagues and win the FA Cup. You want success in the modern game you're going to need money and a lot of it. We generate ours by fleecing our fans, I hear rumours we have some of the highest ticket prices in the world, I can't remember who told me that ;). If you don't have the global fanbase then you need a very rich benefactor - millionaires need no longer apply.

It's sad how football has gone and there's no sign of the bubble bursting. But you're right, we can only compete in the footballing world we find ourselves in. Whether Wenger can remains to be seen. I don't think the "last 10 years" argument stacks up because it's only in the last couple of years we've had the finances to properly compete with the billionaires. Yes yes, Fergie managed it but he's the only one and as much as I rate Wenger, he's no Fergie.

For me this is Wenger's last chance. After the car crash at the start of last season I thought he should be sacked but retaining the FA Cup placated me somewhat. We have to push on and properly challenge for the title this year. We are so far, we've had our wobbles but so have other teams. If we tail off because of the lack of a top striker or the annual injury pile up then he should be sacked.

[Kano]

But he won't be sacked. He never will be. Fans need to face up to that fact and realise we have at least one more season after this one, no matter what happens.

[Letters]

But he won't be sacked. He never will be. Fans need to face up to that fact and realise we have at least one more season after this one, no matter what happens.

He won't be sacked while he's meeting his boss's expectations.
I don't think any other manager at a club at our level would have kept his job after 8 years with no trophies (although the stadium move and associated financial constraints is a mitigating factor, although we should have won something in that time)
But I don't think many managers would have sacked after the last 2 seasons. We won a fairly prestigious trophy in each. We should be aiming for the biggest prizes but if Wenger had been sacked 2 years ago and these were the new manager's first 2 seasons I doubt many would be calling for his head.

[fakeyank]

If we tail off because of the lack of a top striker or the annual injury pile up then he should be sacked.

We have already seen both the scenarios hit us hard this season. We may fluke this years title and I am fairly confident we wont because of our injury situation, our manager and lack of proper tactics. If I had to put an arbitrary number out there, I am 90% certain this stage that we will not win the title this year and that number is pulled out of thin air.

To me, the question is very simple: "Is Wenger going to make us a dominant team in Europe?" I see no reason whatsoever to think that he will, and that to me is unacceptable for an Arsenal manager. If he is not going to take us to where a club like Arsenal's size should be, then why are we persisting with him?

[Letters]

You cannot 'fluke' a title.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I love it how football fans have become business analysts, medical experts, not to mention tactical experts.

In my day, you just used to get pissed and call the ref a cunt.

Not me.

I called the ref a cunt and then I got pissed.

[Xhaka Can’t]

We have already seen both the scenarios hit us hard this season. We may fluke this years title and I am fairly confident we wont because of our injury situation, our manager and lack of proper tactics. If I had to put an arbitrary number out there, I am 90% certain this stage that we will not win the title this year and that number is pulled out of thin air.

To me, the question is very simple: "Is Wenger going to make us a dominant team in Europe?" I see no reason whatsoever to think that he will, and that to me is unacceptable for an Arsenal manager. If he is not going to take us to where a club like Arsenal's size should be, then why are we persisting with him?

If we somehow do win the title and you consider it a fluke. That is the day you need to stop watching football.

[fakeyank]

You cannot 'fluke' a title.

Ferguson supposedly did it in his last year at Utd, Blackburn supposedly did it.. Again, dont emphasize on the fluke, emphasize on the question of whether Wenger is the long term answer at Arsenal.

[fakeyank]

If we somehow do win the title and you consider it a fluke. That is the day you need to stop watching football.

Probably wont happen since we will most likely not win the title, but I will stop watching NFL.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Probably wont happen since we will most likely not win the title, but I will stop watching NFL.

The title, a title- whenever it happens, give it up. That was such a fucking stupid thing to say, and your attempt at wit there does not disguise the stupidity of the statement.

[fakeyank]

The title, a title- whenever it happens, give it up. That was such a fucking stupid thing to say, and your attempt at wit there does not disguise the stupidity of the statement.

Uh sorry, I guess.. :blink:

[adzzzbatch]

I love it how football fans have become business analysts, medical experts, not to mention tactical experts.

In my day, you just used to get pissed and call the ref a cunt.

I still do that :lol:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Uh sorry, I guess.. :blink:

You should be.

Don't let it happen again.

[Kano]

He won't be sacked while he's meeting his boss's expectations.
I don't think any other manager at a club at our level would have kept his job after 8 years with no trophies (although the stadium move and associated financial constraints is a mitigating factor, although we should have won something in that time)
But I don't think many managers would have sacked after the last 2 seasons. We won a fairly prestigious trophy in each. We should be aiming for the biggest prizes but if Wenger had been sacked 2 years ago and these were the new manager's first 2 seasons I doubt many would be calling for his head.

Man City, Chelsea, Barca, Real would sack their manager after two seasons of winning domestic cups. But they are all the worst type of clubs you can imagine. Successful of course but full of utter scumbags both on the pitch and behind the scenes.

Financial targets aside, because they are not football men up at the board level, I think Kroenke and co genuinely revere Wenger too and are in a sense cast under his spell because of his philosophical approach to the game, as well as the previous success and worldwide ambassadorial reputation he has developed.

Wenger will be here next season and beyond if the board have their way, so fans need to decide if they are going to take real action or run circles round themselves just talking about the same problems or suck it up a bit more. Those are the only options on the table.

[IBK]

I'm actually convinced it is the other way. In this modern, consumerist world, marketing is king, and our marketing is far more aggressive around the world than it ever has been. We wouldn't be marked down as one of the richest in the world if our merchandise, sales and marketing teams weren't being successful. We had the 5/6th highest shirt sales a couple of years back I believe. What helps us far more than someone like Ajax is the marketing of the PL too, set alongside our own efforts it ensures we can remain an attractive prospect and retain the focus on our recent and more historic success. All horrible, disgusting words of course, as marketing deserves no place in our world, let alone football but it is what it is now.

I think you are forgetting, though, that time moves on. Of course the EPL is big overseas - particularly in Asia. But I think that there are 2 types of club (sticking to our league). There are the likes of Manure and Liverpool - both bigger clubs than us historically because of their sheer dominance of the league in their respective heydays. They have a massive following amongst supporters of a certain generation - both here and abroad. We are just behind them historically - but never achieved such dominance in the modern era. More to the point, unlike these 2 clubs, we have not won the CL. Then there are the new boys - the Chavs and Citeh who have more recent success and who have attracted superstar players. The kids overseas - if they are into the EPL - will be all over these clubs like a rash. We are certainly not minnows in terms of the size of our following - but our star is somewhat on the wane. The pity is that we could have been bigger than anyone other than Manure if we had built on Wenger's early success, but kids at home and overseas want winners, not clubs that simply turn a decent profit with consistent CL football.

[IBK]

Man City, Chelsea, Barca, Real would sack their manager after two seasons of winning domestic cups. But they are all the worst type of clubs you can imagine. Successful of course but full of utter scumbags both on the pitch and behind the scenes.

Financial targets aside, because they are not football men up at the board level, I think Kroenke and co genuinely revere Wenger too and are in a sense cast under his spell because of his philosophical approach to the game, as well as the previous success and worldwide ambassadorial reputation he has developed.

Wenger will be here next season and beyond if the board have their way, so fans need to decide if they are going to take real action or run circles round themselves just talking about the same problems or suck it up a bit more. Those are the only options on the table.

I don't think Kroenke and Co give a flying fuck about Wenger's footballing philosophy. Wenger is good at keeping our club the cash cow that they can milk, while never having invested a single penny in players or stadium.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I agree... I don't think Kroenke reveres Wenger......that would suggest he's into this sport in a big way. Wenger is simply securing his investment and what more would Kroenke want.

If that is compromised, Kroenke will then get twitchy.

[Kano]

I think you are forgetting, though, that time moves on. Of course the EPL is big overseas - particularly in Asia. But I think that there are 2 types of club (sticking to our league). There are the likes of Manure and Liverpool - both bigger clubs than us historically because of their sheer dominance of the league in their respective heydays. They have a massive following amongst supporters of a certain generation - both here and abroad. We are just behind them historically - but never achieved such dominance in the modern era. More to the point, unlike these 2 clubs, we have not won the CL. Then there are the new boys - the Chavs and Citeh who have more recent success and who have attracted superstar players. The kids overseas - if they are into the EPL - will be all over these clubs like a rash. We are certainly not minnows in terms of the size of our following - but our star is somewhat on the wane. The pity is that we could have been bigger than anyone other than Manure if we had built on Wenger's early success, but kids at home and overseas want winners, not clubs that simply turn a decent profit with consistent CL football.
All we've had is CL football and top four or years and now added to some truly world class players, that is all a marketing machine has needed to keep the club ripping fans off all over the world. There was a study of around 50k Chinese fans almost a couple of years ago and we came out as the most popular. It's just spin and marketing that can sell any bullshit when done the right way. All the marketing and sales bullshit reflects that in that sense, the Arsenal 'brand' is far from on the wane. But again, I'm trying to remain factual in that they are doing their job 'well' and not supportive of these bullshit mercenaries pricks that run the globe.

[Kano]

I don't think Kroenke and Co give a flying fuck about Wenger's footballing philosophy. Wenger is good at keeping our club the cash cow that they can milk, while never having invested a single penny in players or stadium.

Well exactly. Part of his philosophy is doing things on a budget, economics tied into how you play the game. He's a very much a believer in the free market too. Everyone has the right to do and choose as they please. His ideas stretch out way beyond this sport. All the things the arseholes owning our club love. But again, like Wenger's position at the club we are going to have to adjust ourselves because now we are owned by billionaires, we will always be owned by billionaires. More Kroenke's and co to follow that will milk us for whatever they can.

[Letters]

Ferguson supposedly did it in his last year at Utd, Blackburn supposedly did it.. Again, dont emphasize on the fluke, emphasize on the question of whether Wenger is the long term answer at Arsenal.

He clearly isn't the long term answer if only because of his age.
But he's a relatively safe pair of hands right now, more so than some of the alternatives proposed on here who have gone on to crash and burn. He has his flaws but don't kid yourself that any idiot could come in and do better.

[Chippy]

Well exactly. Part of his philosophy is doing things on a budget, economics tied into how you play the game. He's a very much a believer in the free market too. Everyone has the right to do and choose as they please. His ideas stretch out way beyond this sport. All the things the arseholes owning our club love. But again, like Wenger's position at the club we are going to have to adjust ourselves because now we are owned by billionaires, we will always be owned by billionaires. More Kroenke's and co to follow that will milk us for whatever they can.
RIP our wonderful game :(

[Kano]

RIP our wonderful game :(

Like a lot of things smothered by consumerism you just have to focus on the best of what's left. Most of that is just twenty-two guys having a kick about. All the other shit beyond that just fucks it all up.

[IBK]

Well exactly. Part of his philosophy is doing things on a budget, economics tied into how you play the game. He's a very much a believer in the free market too. Everyone has the right to do and choose as they please. His ideas stretch out way beyond this sport. All the things the arseholes owning our club love. But again, like Wenger's position at the club we are going to have to adjust ourselves because now we are owned by billionaires, we will always be owned by billionaires. More Kroenke's and co to follow that will milk us for whatever they can.

Yes its a billionaires' game and a business rather than a 'sport' now. But as you well know, there are different ways to milk the cash cow, and in terms of our status and results we very much have the short end of the wedge in terms of our investors. The newcomers to our game are prepared to pump money into their clubs to make them winners - and to leverage that for commercial success. These owners are driven by the need to get to the top - and the majority of our competitors - the Chavs; Citeh; Manure and even Liverpool fall into this bracket. On the other hand. our despicable owner is well known for playing the percentages. Winning is not important as long as we do the minimum required to maintain a commercial position. And I think that this is our fans' frustration - with both owner and manager.

[IBK]

All we've had is CL football and top four or years and now added to some truly world class players, that is all a marketing machine has needed to keep the club ripping fans off all over the world. There was a study of around 50k Chinese fans almost a couple of years ago and we came out as the most popular. It's just spin and marketing that can sell any bullshit when done the right way. All the marketing and sales bullshit reflects that in that sense, the Arsenal 'brand' is far from on the wane. But again, I'm trying to remain factual in that they are doing their job 'well' and not supportive of these bullshit mercenaries pricks that run the globe.

Difficult to find empirical evidence for what you say, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes%27_list_of_the_most_valuable_football_clubs #2014_rankings shows precisely that we are staring to fall down the list of biggest clubs, and common sense suggests that each year that we don't win a major trophy will see global interest in our club wane.

[Kano]

Yes its a billionaires' game and a business rather than a 'sport' now. But as you well know, there are different ways to milk the cash cow, and in terms of our status and results we very much have the short end of the wedge in terms of our investors. The newcomers to our game are prepared to pump money into their clubs to make them winners - and to leverage that for commercial success. These owners are driven by the need to get to the top - and the majority of our competitors - the Chavs; Citeh; Manure and even Liverpool fall into this bracket. On the other hand. our despicable owner is well known for playing the percentages. Winning is not important as long as we do the minimum required to maintain a commercial position. And I think that this is our fans' frustration - with both owner and manager.

The reason these clubs had to invest so much was to create value around the club they were taking over. They had no option but to pump billions into their veins to make the long game worthwhile. City and Chelsea had no recent history to speak of, nothing that could be spun worldwide by spineless marketing departments. So the first port of call was to bring in star names, increase shirt sales, a buzz, kick start sales campaigns and then gather up some trophies for a longer term vision of spinning more marketing bullshit. Whereas that wasn’t required at Arsenal. The reputation was already there, a manager who could turn shit into bronze and secure CL football every season and provide a base for new commercial ventures to rip off fans worldwide. If Arsenal weren’t in the PL and benefiting from the PR generated by the league they are in, exposed to new territories every season, then I’d agree that our own promotional efforts wouldn’t be sufficient. But (un)fortunately the club benefits from the efforts of two groups of marketing hacks that enables them to keep floating around. I empathise with fans like myself who are frustrated by the manger but I’ll be fucked if I feel sorry for those who want to compare us to any of those other clubs you mentioned. I’m no fan of our owners but I can’t say my tongue is out salivating to follow the methodology of the crooks that run those clubs either.

All of this commercial talk is absolute bullshit anyway, and my only real interest is watching the guys on the pitch every week, the essence of why I started watching this game when I was a kid. If we win, we win but if not, then I refuse to let all this other shit get in the way anymore. Corporatism continues to invade every other aspect of our life and few things we hold sacred, those little escapes that used to be pure, have to be upheld by the individual. Whatever they may be. Capitalism celebrates the winners only, just how football has become and I’ve stepped out of that queue now because frankly it bores me.

[IBK]

The reason these clubs had to invest so much was to create value around the club they were taking over. They had no option but to pump billions into their veins to make the long game worthwhile. City and Chelsea had no recent history to speak of, nothing that could be spun worldwide by spineless marketing departments. So the first port of call was to bring in star names, increase shirt sales, a buzz, kick start sales campaigns and then gather up some trophies for a longer term vision of spinning more marketing bullshit. Whereas that wasn’t required at Arsenal. The reputation was already there, a manager who could turn shit into bronze and secure CL football every season and provide a base for new commercial ventures to rip off fans worldwide. If Arsenal weren’t in the PL and benefiting from the PR generated by the league they are in, exposed to new territories every season, then I’d agree that our own promotional efforts wouldn’t be sufficient. But (un)fortunately the club benefits from the efforts of two groups of marketing hacks that enables them to keep floating around. I empathise with fans like myself who are frustrated by the manger but I’ll be fucked if I feel sorry for those who want to compare us to any of those other clubs you mentioned. I’m no fan of our owners but I can’t say my tongue is out salivating to follow the methodology of the crooks that run those clubs either.

All of this commercial talk is absolute bullshit anyway, and my only real interest is watching the guys on the pitch every week, the essence of why I started watching this game when I was a kid. If we win, we win but if not, then I refuse to let all this other shit get in the way anymore. Corporatism continues to invade every other aspect of our life and few things we hold sacred, those little escapes that used to be pure, have to be upheld by the individual. Whatever they may be. Capitalism celebrates the winners only, just how football has become and I’ve stepped out of that queue now because frankly it bores me.

Believe me - I realise why the nouveau riche are doing what they are doing. And its self evident from the way our club is being run that it can make cash for our cynical, cold blooded owner without this kind of investment because of our existing rep.

I'm with you when it comes to viewing the game as having gone to shit.

But I don't think most fans are asking for us to be a Citeh. I've said many times that I prefer to look inwards rather than at what others are doing - and I think its the manager's 'handbrake', aided and abetted by an owner who is not interested in football and clearly couldn't give a fuck if we win things that frustrates. And for me - its the endless Groundhog Day of Wenger's teams that is breaking the bond between me and the team I love more than anything else.

[Marc Overmars]

Alexis has gone to Chile to recover.

Expected to be back for the Christmas fixtures.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

Can't we recall Gnarby......you never know he could be this year's Coqulian? and help out wide while Alexis is away

[fakeyank]

He clearly isn't the long term answer if only because of his age.
But he's a relatively safe pair of hands right now, more so than some of the alternatives proposed on here who have gone on to crash and burn. He has his flaws but don't kid yourself that any idiot could come in and do better.

Never seriously said that a complete idiot could take his job but there are way better alternatives out there and frankly, I think quite a few of them are out there. The biggest fish we missed was obviously Klopp..

[Niall_Quinn]

Never seriously said that a complete idiot could take his job but there are way better alternatives out there and frankly, I think quite a few of them are out there. The biggest fish we missed was obviously Klopp..

That's the problem we have. An owner who gave a shit about football would have ditched Wenger and grabbed Klopp. But we don't have an owner like that so Jesus Christ himself could be on the market and it wouldn't raise an eyebrow with our lot. We're stuck with Wenger until 2017, but much more likely 2020. And then they'll lobby like fuck to keep him after that.

[Letters]

Never seriously said that a complete idiot could take his job but there are way better alternatives out there and frankly, I think quite a few of them are out there. The biggest fish we missed was obviously Klopp..
I don't think 'way' better or 'quite a few' of them. I quite like what Koeman is doing at Southampton. I wouldn't mind him.

[IBK]

That's the problem we have. An owner who gave a shit about football would have ditched Wenger and grabbed Klopp. But we don't have an owner like that so Jesus Christ himself could be on the market and it wouldn't raise an eyebrow with our lot. We're stuck with Wenger until 2017, but much more likely 2020. And then they'll lobby like fuck to keep him after that.

Nail on head. And worse - because the owners are so in bed with Wenger, I suspect that there won't even be proper succession planning in 2030 when Wenger makes the decision that he finally wants to leave.

[Letters]

I believe our transfer budgets are restricted somewhat by the research into cryogenic suspension so that when Wenger dies we can freeze him and then revive him when medical science allows so he can resume his duties.

[fakeyank]

I don't think 'way' better or 'quite a few' of them. I quite like what Koeman is doing at Southampton. I wouldn't mind him.

Quite a few would be about 5-6 of them. Way better, absolutely yes. We can agree to disagree of course..

[Niall_Quinn]

I believe our transfer budgets are restricted somewhat by the research into cryogenic suspension so that when Wenger dies we can freeze him and then revive him when medical science allows so he can resume his duties.

They'll just hire a couple of ex-Politburo to wheel him around and wave his arms.

Why doesn't he commit to leaving in 2017? Everyone could live with that if we knew there was an end in sight and everyone would be easier on him too. It's the resentment that rises from him deciding every damn thing and communicating nothing that is going to make him despised rather than idolised by the time he leaves. He'd have legend status if he'd left 5 years ago. He'd still have a (hmmmm, just about) fondly remembered legacy if he goes in 2017. Stay beyond that though, I don't think it will be pretty. And if the board gets the embalming fluid out then all hell will break loose.

[IBK]

I believe our transfer budgets are restricted somewhat by the research into cryogenic suspension so that when Wenger dies we can freeze him and then revive him when medical science allows so he can resume his duties.

...as long as they don't use our current medical staff - if they do, then we'll be OK because they'll f*ck up the process.

[Letters]

Quite a few would be about 5-6 of them. Way better, absolutely yes. We can agree to disagree of course..
Way better is such a vague and woolly term I'm not sure what we'd be disagreeing about.

[fakeyank]

Way better is such a vague and woolly term I'm not sure what we'd be disagreeing about.

About the fact that there are much better managers than wenger. Unless you agree that there are quite a few better managers than AW.. then we are all in agreement.

[Kano]

That's the problem we have. An owner who gave a shit about football would have ditched Wenger and grabbed Klopp. But we don't have an owner like that so Jesus Christ himself could be on the market and it wouldn't raise an eyebrow with our lot. We're stuck with Wenger until 2017, but much more likely 2020. And then they'll lobby like fuck to keep him after that.
Hand on heart can you name an owner that gives a shit about football in the top flight in any country? I'm no defender of our owners but I know you are realistic enough to realise that any current or future owner of our club is going to have a crooked vision. Let's look to a future beyond Wenger for a moment, still under the control of our current bent owners. Wouldn't they just look for someone who could deliver something similar? Or, let's envisage that Kroenke and co sell out to someone else. We know that realistically the only other type of owner is going to follow the method set in stone by Chelsea or City. Utopia or the truth exists in the grey areas, in between the lines, a place we rarely get to see revealed because of the imbalance of our nature. Once upon a time we were too small, then we became too big. Wenger or no Kroenke we've long since passed beyond the point of no return. The only thing left to decide is what you want to get back from it.

[Globalgunner]

The top managers are self motivated so no worries about that. There is no way. Klopp, Ancellotti,Guardiola or Simeone would come to Arsenal and simply pass the time by doing the minimum possible. Most would resign immediately hearing the words " top 4 trophy". Its a shame really as many of us though we were heading into a new era when Kroenke took over. In hindsight, we would have fared better under the fat geezer from Uzbek.

To my mind, Arsene is not under any instructions not to spend. He simply prefers not to do it. It is his get out of jail card every season we fail again.

[fakeyank]

The top managers are self motivated so no worries about that. There is no way. Klopp, Ancellotti,Guardiola or Simeone would come to Arsenal and simply pass the time by doing the minimum possible. Most would resign immediately hearing the words " top 4 trophy". Its a shame really as many of us though we were heading into a new era when Kroenke took over. In hindsight, we would have fared better under the fat geezer from Uzbek.

To my mind, Arsene is not under any instructions not to spend. He simply prefers not to do it. It is his get out of jail card every season we fail again.

:gp:

[Power n Glory]

Hand on heart can you name an owner that gives a shit about football in the top flight in any country? I'm no defender of our owners but I know you are realistic enough to realise that any current or future owner of our club is going to have a crooked vision. Let's look to a future beyond Wenger for a moment, still under the control of our current bent owners. Wouldn't they just look for someone who could deliver something similar? Or, let's envisage that Kroenke and co sell out to someone else. We know that realistically the only other type of owner is going to follow the method set in stone by Chelsea or City. Utopia or the truth exists in the grey areas, in between the lines, a place we rarely get to see revealed because of the imbalance of our nature. Once upon a time we were too small, then we became too big. Wenger or no Kroenke we've long since passed beyond the point of no return. The only thing left to decide is what you want to get back from it.

That's the nature of any business. The owners/producer provides the funds and facilities, the rest is in the managers hands. From football to Hollywood....I don't think we'll get away from the typical commercial model. The drive and motivation to be the best or produce the best should come from the manager. Film industry may not be the best example, but there are plenty of stories where a director has a very small buget but works a minor miracle to get the very best performance from what he has and wins. Or even on the other scale where directors walk off set because the producer wants to compromise the art and vision of the director.

Just thinking of Arsenal's situation, if the Board only care about turning a profit and keeping things ticking, it would be near impossible to find someone like Wenger. No top flight manager would settle or be satisfied with CL spots and the odd domestic trophy. They'd have to shoot lower and give someone young the opportunity or someone totally unqualified like a Moyes. But even in those scenarios, I can't see either type being satisfied with such small gains for long. They's soon have the taste and hunger for success. Most managers do. I just don't know why Wenger hasn't got it or why he has tolerated the lack of success. Well, that's a lie. With the way he justifies his record, I think he's defined his own terms of what success means and is quite decisional. That's the only way I can explain. I just can't see another manager following this pattern regardless of who the Board appoint.

[Power n Glory]

The top managers are self motivated so no worries about that. There is no way. Klopp, Ancellotti,Guardiola or Simeone would come to Arsenal and simply pass the time by doing the minimum possible. Most would resign immediately hearing the words " top 4 trophy". Its a shame really as many of us though we were heading into a new era when Kroenke took over. In hindsight, we would have fared better under the fat geezer from Uzbek.

To my mind, Arsene is not under any instructions not to spend. He simply prefers not to do it. It is his get out of jail card every season we fail again.

:gp:

[Letters]

About the fact that there are much better managers than wenger. Unless you agree that there are quite a few better managers than AW.. then we are all in agreement.

If by 'quite a few' you mean 5 or 6 as you said above then yeah, maybe, but as a percentage of football managers even at the top level that isn't that high. I don't really agree about 'much' or 'way' better but that's such a subjective and impossible to quantify statement that it's not something worth debating. Is Wenger the best manager ever? No. Could we do better? Maybe, but not as easily as some people think, some of the names bandied about on here in the last few yeas are laughable. Is he as incompetent as some on here make out? Obviously not.

[Kano]

That's the nature of any business. The owners/producer provides the funds and facilities, the rest is in the managers hands. From football to Hollywood....I don't think we'll get away from the typical commercial model. The drive and motivation to be the best or produce the best should come from the manager. Film industry may not be the best example, but there are plenty of stories where a director has a very small buget but works a minor miracle to get the very best performance from what he has and wins. Or even on the other scale where directors walk off set because the producer wants to compromise the art and vision of the director.

Just thinking of Arsenal's situation, if the Board only care about turning a profit and keeping things ticking, it would be near impossible to find someone like Wenger. No top flight manager would settle or be satisfied with CL spots and the odd domestic trophy. They'd have to shoot lower and give someone young the opportunity or someone totally unqualified like a Moyes. But even in those scenarios, I can't see either type being satisfied with such small gains for long. They's soon have the taste and hunger for success. Most managers do. I just don't know why Wenger hasn't got it or why he has tolerated the lack of success. Well, that's a lie. With the way he justifies his record, I think he's defined his own terms of what success means and is quite decisional. That's the only way I can explain. I just can't see another manager following this pattern regardless of who the Board appoint.

Well of course, I don't need a 101 about that. The drive to be the best comes from the absolute top of the club, just like any CEO or MD given the autonomy to shape a company's direction. They employ the head of departments that get them the results the board demand. But fans need to realise there is no utopia to be found here. Just one crook after the other running our club from here on in. Then it comes down to what you are willing to ignore for self satisfaction as a fan because we're all invested for our own selfish reasons primarily. Stick with our current lot and be teased by success or owned by a cunt who turns us into their toy. That's where we are for good now and both sides require fans to swallow down a lot of bullshit they hadn't bargained for.

[Power n Glory]

Well of course, I don't need a 101 about that. The drive to be the best comes from the absolute top of the club, just like any CEO or MD given the autonomy to shape a company's direction. They employ the head of departments that get them the results the board demand. But fans need to realise there is no utopia to be found here. Just one crook after the other running our club from here on in. Then it comes down to what you are willing to ignore for self satisfaction as a fan because we're all invested for our own selfish reasons primarily. Stick with our current lot and be teased by success or owned by a cunt who turns us into their toy. That's where we are for good now and both sides require fans to swallow down a lot of bullshit they hadn't bargained for.

I’m not sure you understand. If you look at Dortmund when under Klopp or Atletico Madrid. Do you think the drive to be the best came from the Board? Did they appoint those managers and demand the league be wrestled away from the mega rich Real Madrid, Barca or Bayern? Bearing in mind they didn’t have the budget to compete on those terms. Going even further back to when we appointed Wenger, was the demand put on him to win the league from Man Utd, or did we just spot a talented manager with potential?

I don’t think anyone here really cares about the ownership of the club anymore. We have two crooked billionaires on the Board anyway and it’s been accepted when before most fans wanted us to stay British owned. I think most fans let go of a utopia a long time ago. The American is taking money out of club and Jabba has a sketchy past like the rest of the oil baron owners. It’s all been accepted already.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Is Usmanov on the Board now?

[selassie]

The top managers are self motivated so no worries about that. There is no way. Klopp, Ancellotti,Guardiola or Simeone would come to Arsenal and simply pass the time by doing the minimum possible. Most would resign immediately hearing the words " top 4 trophy". Its a shame really as many of us though we were heading into a new era when Kroenke took over. In hindsight, we would have fared better under the fat geezer from Uzbek.

To my mind, Arsene is not under any instructions not to spend. He simply prefers not to do it. It is his get out of jail card every season we fail again.

:gp:

[Power n Glory]

Is Usmanov on the Board now?

Correction. He's one of the owners.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Cheers - thought I must have missed something as nothing these days surprises me on how the Club is run.

[IBK]

Hand on heart can you name an owner that gives a shit about football in the top flight in any country? I'm no defender of our owners but I know you are realistic enough to realise that any current or future owner of our club is going to have a crooked vision. Let's look to a future beyond Wenger for a moment, still under the control of our current bent owners. Wouldn't they just look for someone who could deliver something similar? Or, let's envisage that Kroenke and co sell out to someone else. We know that realistically the only other type of owner is going to follow the method set in stone by Chelsea or City. Utopia or the truth exists in the grey areas, in between the lines, a place we rarely get to see revealed because of the imbalance of our nature. Once upon a time we were too small, then we became too big. Wenger or no Kroenke we've long since passed beyond the point of no return. The only thing left to decide is what you want to get back from it.

I think you are missing the point. As I explained earlier, its not a question of owners being genuine enthusiasts - its a question of them having a commercial vision/template that will accept nothing less than success. Generally, football fans really couldn't care less whether success is a by product of a boardroom business model. It is Arsenal fans who have been brainwashed into thinking that 'buying' success is somehow less valid. So we come to the manager, and I genuinely believe that a Wenger in his prime might upset the odds and win things with us despite our business model being to play the percentages and do the absolute minimum in terms of investment to keep us there or thereabouts (let's not get into the fact that there is, and has been NO outside investment in our club - the owner only takes). In this respect a Wenger in his prime would be equivalent to us having a Klopp; Guardiaola or Simeone now. But our manager is tired; inflexible and messianistic - and ultimately content to accept the same as our owners - albeit for different reasons.

[Power n Glory]

Cheers - thought I must have missed something as nothing these days surprises me on how the Club is run.

Is Dein still running with Jabba? Or has he gone Solo? ;)

He introduced both of them to the club. Just wondering if he wants back in.

[Kano]

I think you are missing the point. As I explained earlier, its not a question of owners being genuine enthusiasts - its a question of them having a commercial vision/template that will accept nothing less than success. Generally, football fans really couldn't care less whether success is a by product of a boardroom business model. It is Arsenal fans who have been brainwashed into thinking that 'buying' success is somehow less valid. So we come to the manager, and I genuinely believe that a Wenger in his prime might upset the odds and win things with us despite our business model being to play the percentages and do the absolute minimum in terms of investment to keep us there or thereabouts (let's not get into the fact that there is, and has been NO outside investment in our club - the owner only takes). In this respect a Wenger in his prime would be equivalent to us having a Klopp; Guardiaola or Simeone now. But our manager is tired; inflexible and messianistic - and ultimately content to accept the same as our owners - albeit for different reasons.

No point being missed at all here at all.

[Kano]

I’m not sure you understand. If you look at Dortmund when under Klopp or Atletico Madrid. Do you think the drive to be the best came from the Board? Did they appoint those managers and demand the league be wrestled away from the mega rich Real Madrid, Barca or Bayern? Bearing in mind they didn’t have the budget to compete on those terms. Going even further back to when we appointed Wenger, was the demand put on him to win the league from Man Utd, or did we just spot a talented manager with potential?

I don’t think anyone here really cares about the ownership of the club anymore. We have two crooked billionaires on the Board anyway and it’s been accepted when before most fans wanted us to stay British owned. I think most fans let go of a utopia a long time ago. The American is taking money out of club and Jabba has a sketchy past like the rest of the oil baron owners. It’s all been accepted already.

I understand perfectly. I just think you are wrong.

[Power n Glory]

I think you are missing the point. As I explained earlier, its not a question of owners being genuine enthusiasts - its a question of them having a commercial vision/template that will accept nothing less than success. Generally, football fans really couldn't care less whether success is a by product of a boardroom business model. It is Arsenal fans who have been brainwashed into thinking that 'buying' success is somehow less valid. So we come to the manager, and I genuinely believe that a Wenger in his prime might upset the odds and win things with us despite our business model being to play the percentages and do the absolute minimum in terms of investment to keep us there or thereabouts (let's not get into the fact that there is, and has been NO outside investment in our club - the owner only takes). In this respect a Wenger in his prime would be equivalent to us having a Klopp; Guardiaola or Simeone now. But our manager is tired; inflexible and messianistic - and ultimately content to accept the same as our owners - albeit for different reasons.

That's a :gp:

I'm thinking along the same lines.

[Power n Glory]

I understand perfectly. I just think you are wrong.

Care elaborate? Wrong about what exactly?

[IBK]

Rightyho then.

[IBK]

Care elaborate? Wrong about what exactly?

He's cleverer than you are :whistle:

[Power n Glory]

Maybe

[selassie]

Well of course, I don't need a 101 about that. The drive to be the best comes from the absolute top of the club, just like any CEO or MD given the autonomy to shape a company's direction. They employ the head of departments that get them the results the board demand. But fans need to realise there is no utopia to be found here. Just one crook after the other running our club from here on in. Then it comes down to what you are willing to ignore for self satisfaction as a fan because we're all invested for our own selfish reasons primarily. Stick with our current lot and be teased by success or owned by a cunt who turns us into their toy. That's where we are for good now and both sides require fans to swallow down a lot of bullshit they hadn't bargained for.

Or maybe some of us want a middle ground?

That middle ground can actually come from the Manager because ultimately he is in control of the Footballing side of things. As said by IBK, PnG & others, if we take the owners out of this debate it's Wenger who is the bottleneck here, he's not doing a bad job, far from it, he's just doing enough to keep us in the same position every single year, he's by no means handicapped though, he makes the decisions and ultimately that's why we are where we are.

[fakeyank]

Could we do better? Maybe, but not as easily as some people think, some of the names bandied about on here in the last few yeas are laughable. Is he as incompetent as some on here make out? Obviously not.

Dont Agree. Could we do better? Absolutely yes. Is he as incompetent as some on here make out? Not as incompetent as some of the hyperbole used (many by me) but when you compare him to the standards of where a club like Arsenal should be, yes, he is incompetent.

EDIT: I will add that your views on standards of where Arsenal should be can vary significantly than me. My view is that Arsenal has every resource possible to be challenging the Madrids, Barcas and Bayerns of the world.

[Letters]

My view is that Arsenal has every resource possible to be challenging the Madrids, Barcas and Bayerns of the world.
Hmm. They may do now but that certainly hasn't been so for the last 10 years.
I think we agree that Wenger was overly frugal at times but I don't think we had the resources to challenge properly till the new financial deals were in place.
City and Chelsea have got as much money as they want and they're not challenging those sides.

Whatever you think of Wenger he's kept us reasonably competitive, we're finally winning trophies again and we're in great financial shape where teams like Real have huge debts.
He's hardly the bumbling incompetent some on here make out.

[fakeyank]

Hmm. They may do now but that certainly hasn't been so for the last 10 years.
I think we agree that Wenger was overly frugal at times but I don't think we had the resources to challenge properly till the new financial deals were in place.
City and Chelsea have got as much money as they want and they're not challenging those sides.

Whatever you think of Wenger he's kept us reasonably competitive, we're finally winning trophies again and we're in great financial shape where teams like Real have huge debts.
He's hardly the bumbling incompetent some on here make out.

Think of Dortmund in the last five years or Atletico for the last few years. They have managed to be among the big boys despite having meager resources.. how did that happen? Its because they had good managers. Yes, financially we have been better in the last 3 years but we could have and should have done much better while we didnt have the millions we had. We have plateaued under Wenger and he is not the answer for the club.

Btw, in a related topic of why we wont win the PL this season.. I will most likely be coming to London in February for either the games against Southampton or the one against Leicester. I was 90% sure we wont win the title.. I am 100% certain now! :lol:

[IBK]

Maybe

Toungue firmly in cheek there, mate!