Central Defence

[Chippy]

I know that I will receive much criticism for this comment, but here goes anyway.

I fully understand that the fans are crying out for a defensive Midfielder (which we have now got in the addition of Elneny).

However, my concern is with our central defenders Koscielny and Mertesacker.

I know that Kos puts in a good shift and is dedicated, however, in my opinion, he is certainly not outstanding.

As for Merts, he has a big heart and gets involved, but he is so slow and gets caught out far too much.

I would put Gabriel alongside Kos from now on and use Merts as back up.

We rarely look secure at the back.

Just saying………….

[Marc Overmars]

I don't think you're the only one mate who is advocating Gabriel to start in place of Merts.

[Özim]

Mertersacker is pure rubbish, should have never signed him he's never been any good, it's no surprise that he's a liability.

Gabriel should play every game, agree with Koscielny, good defender no doubt but not the world beater some claim he is on here.

[IBK]

Hmmm - our central defence looked decent before Coquelin's injury. Didn;t we have the best (second best) defensive record up until then? Our lack of MF is skewing our view, IMO.

[Letters]

Mertersacker is pure rubbish, should have never signed him he's never been any good, it's no surprise that he's a liability.
:lol:

Yes. The man who has a hundred caps for Germany, most recently as part of their World Cup winning team, is "pure rubbish" and has "never been any good"

:doh:

He's getting on a bit now and arguably shouldn't be first choice now but man you spout some nonsense.

[selassie]

I know that I will receive much criticism for this comment, but here goes anyway.

I fully understand that the fans are crying out for a defensive Midfielder (which we have now got in the addition of Elneny).

However, my concern is with our central defenders Koscielny and Mertesacker.

I know that Kos puts in a good shift and is dedicated, however, in my opinion, he is certainly not outstanding.

As for Merts, he has a big heart and gets involved, but he is so slow and gets caught out far too much.

I would put Gabriel alongside Kos from now on and use Merts as back up.

We rarely look secure at the back.

Just saying………….

Central Defence isn't perfect and I am not against Merts being dropped for Gabriel but that will not fix the flaws in our team IMO.

The bigger concern and major flaw in our team right now is Central Midfield. They offer the defence pretty much no protection, lack positional awareness and offer little creativity. Central Midfield right now is an abomination and it's completely handicapping the balance of the team. Central Defence is massively exposed and overworked at the moment, they are under immense pressure pretty much every game now.

Before Caz & Coq got crocked Central Defence wasn't an issue, we had the best defensive record in the league because we had Coq who was mopping up in front of them and Caz who was distributing and keeping hold of possession, since they've been crocked our level of performance has dipped dramatically and we are basically struggling in most games, even our recent wins against Bournemouth, Newcastle and Sunderland haven't been easy.

IMO, even if Gabriel replaced Merts we wouldn't see that much of an improvement because opposing teams are getting a free run at our back 4.

Wenger needs to fix Central Midfield and quickly because if he doesn't I think we'll be dropping a lot more points.

[IBK]

:lol:

Yes. The man who has a hundred caps for Germany, most recently as part of their World Cup winning team, is "pure rubbish" and has "never been any good"

:doh:

He's getting on a bit now and arguably shouldn't be first choice now but man you spout some nonsense.
Give it a rest, Letters?

[Chippy]

Hmmm - our central defence looked decent before Coquelin's injury. Didn;t we have the best (second best) defensive record up until then? Our lack of MF is skewing our view, IMO.

That is because Coquelin was protecting them! Papering over the cracks so to say.

[Globalgunner]

Give it a rest, Letters?

You are asking for too much

[IBK]

That is because Coquelin was protecting them! Papering over the cracks so to say.

Yeah - they were getting decent protection - but I feel that we do need to factor in the loss of not just 1 but both of our first choice CMF's and the fact that Ramseyhas had very little experience playing there (one of the problems with AW's obsession with playing players out wide...A team can only defend effectively as a team - and I wonder whether any defenders would look secure with as shaky a MF as we have ATM?

[Özim]

:lol:

Yes. The man who has a hundred caps for Germany, most recently as part of their World Cup winning team, is "pure rubbish" and has "never been any good"

:doh:

He's getting on a bit now and arguably shouldn't be first choice now but man you spout some nonsense.

Correct, always been a liability :good:

He's as slow as a barge, has poor anticipation and isn't even that good in the air, nothing about him has ever screamed out quality.

[Power n Glory]

I think Cech and Coquelin have really papered over the cracks. I don't think either Merts or Kos have been good this season.

[Globalgunner]

TBF Kosc has generally been excellent. Everyone has those off days. However Merts I do not get. We should be easing him out instead of playing him as the default pairing with Koscielny. His positioning is his only attribute, but it is not enough for him to anchor a position in this team. Germany soon realised his faults and he would have been dropped anyways had he not retired.

[Power n Glory]

Kos gets way too much leeway imo. It's only until Merts showed up that he started playing well. It was a good partnership.

[Kano]

That is because Coquelin was protecting them! Papering over the cracks so to say.

I'm not sure how that is so easily decided. Doesn't every defence look less effective when their reliable midfield shield is not there? I thought that was half the point of a DM type of player.

[selassie]

I'm not sure how that is so easily decided. Doesn't every defence look less effective when their reliable midfield shield is not there? I thought that was half the point of a DM type of player.

Yep that's what I thought. At the moment we basically have nobody doing that role which is leading to teams having pretty much a free run at our defence, first 15 minutes yesterday against Liverpool was comical, they just bypassed our Midfield. It happened against Southampton too.

[IBK]

I'm not sure how that is so easily decided. Doesn't every defence look less effective when their reliable midfield shield is not there? I thought that was half the point of a DM type of player.

Yes - just the point I was trying to make.

[Power n Glory]

70% or less pass completion for Ozil, Flamini and Ramsey. Besides not protecting the defence the distribution was really bad yesterday. We'll see if our new signing starts a game soon and I'd be tempted give Rosicky a game. If Theo doesn't sort his shit out as well, push Rambo to the left. Usually dead against such moves but Theo has had way too many days off and it's indefensible.

[IBK]

70% or less pass completion for Ozil, Flamini and Ramsey. Besides not protecting the defence the distribution was really bad yesterday. We'll see if our new signing starts a game soon and I'd be tempted give Rosicky a game. If Theo doesn't sort his shit out as well, push Rambo to the left. Usually dead against such moves but Theo has had way too many days off and it's indefensible.

Yes our distribution from MF has been increasingly non-existent - which has disrupted our attacks, while it's been pourous defensively. If Flamini had been playing alongside Cazorla; or Ramsey with Coquelin, these defects might have been masked, but the double injury situation has been a bit of a disaster.

[selassie]

Yes our distribution from MF has been increasingly non-existent - which has disrupted our attacks, while it's been pourous defensively. If Flamini had been playing alongside Cazorla; or Ramsey with Coquelin, these defects might have been masked, but the double injury situation has been a bit of a disaster.

:gp:

Yep, was saying this in another thread, we've lost all the qualities we had before in Midfield and it's screwing us.

[Power n Glory]

Yes our distribution from MF has been increasingly non-existent - which has disrupted our attacks, while it's been pourous defensively. If Flamini had been playing alongside Cazorla; or Ramsey with Coquelin, these defects might have been masked, but the double injury situation has been a bit of a disaster.

It's really not good enough. It's partly why I think we should have subbed either Ramsey or Flamini yesterday but kept our counter attacking threats on. When ball retention isn't possible, the aim should be to play on the counter. We've seen this ball distribution problem plenty of times before like when we use to play Arteta, Wilshere and Ramsey together. Or after we lost Cesc and Nasri and everything was coming from Song, RVP and Theo. I really hope this new kid is good and Rosicky is ready to play because I have zero faith in Ramsey and Flamini.

[fakeyank]

Merts is a good defender when the other team is slow and our deep lying midfielders have time taking the ball from the back. However when you are playing against teams with a high press or playing quick football, he is a complete liability- with or without a defensive midfielder. I agree with the notion that headless chicken (Flamini) and Hollywood (Ramsey) have made the situation even worse but at this point, we should be playing horses for courses.

I do want Merts to stick around because of his experience and the respect he commands in the dressing room, but it'd be a handicap to play him against high press or quick passing teams. The thought of him starting against Barca in the CL gives me nightmares!!

[IBK]

Merts is a good defender when the other team is slow and our deep lying midfielders have time taking the ball from the back. However when you are playing against teams with a high press or playing quick football, he is a complete liability- with or without a defensive midfielder. I agree with the notion that headless chicken (Flamini) and Hollywood (Ramsey) have made the situation even worse but at this point, we should be playing horses for courses.

I do want Merts to stick around because of his experience and the respect he commands in the dressing room, but it'd be a handicap to play him against high press or quick passing teams. The thought of him starting against Barca in the CL gives me nightmares!!

Its all about adapting properly for when we play teams that we know are going to press rather than be more intimidated by us and sit deeper. Wenger has shown this season that he is prepare to sacrifice our possession game for counter attacking - he needs to treat his personnel similarly - rather than being inflexible - particularly with his defence which is not necessarily one size fits all.

[Niall_Quinn]

IMO, even if Gabriel replaced Merts we wouldn't see that much of an improvement because opposing teams are getting a free run at our back 4.

I bet we'd see an improvement right across the backline with every player benefiting. Kos could play one position instead of two, the fullbacks wouldn't then have to cover random and gaping holes appearing as Merts tries to get up steam and move himself from one spot to another on the pitch. The German is decent enough covering set pieces but when the play is mobile and with any sort of pace he might as well be at home with his feet up. Added to that he slows everything down when he gets all those fucking backpasses from the midfield. And his distribution is lousy if he attempts anything other than a square ball to either side. He's not the worst but he's not good enough for us.

[Power n Glory]

Is Merts really struggling badly or is it because he sticks out like sore thumb and looks awkward that it gets noticed more? Not that stats tell all but he won all his aerial duels. 3/3. 5/5 headed clearances. 7/9 clearances. 1 block, no interceptions or tackles.

Kos in comparison - 2/5 aerial duels won, 3/4 headed clearances, 5/8 clearances, 0 blocks, 3 interceptions, 0 tackles.

Kos is the better player on the ground but he has his faults as well.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Koscielny is not great at defending set pieces either. You can tell despite the pace they have in their front three, when we play at Mordor on Sunday they will mix their high handed tactics with trying to cause us grief from set pieces. So for that game tactically I'd be tempted to bring in Gabriel....who besides looking like an Orc can put it about himself.

[Power n Glory]

I bet we'd see an improvement right across the backline with every player benefiting. Kos could play one position instead of two, the fullbacks wouldn't then have to cover random and gaping holes appearing as Merts tries to get up steam and move himself from one spot to another on the pitch. The German is decent enough covering set pieces but when the play is mobile and with any sort of pace he might as well be at home with his feet up. Added to that he slows everything down when he gets all those fucking backpasses from the midfield. And his distribution is lousy if he attempts anything other than a square ball to either side. He's not the worst but he's not good enough for us.

I'm not so sure about that one either. We lost our opening two champs league games with Kos and Gabriel along with the Chelsea game. I'm not sure that would be an instant fix but wouldn't mind seeing a change.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Prime Maldini/Nesta or Vidic/Rio would have struggled with Ramsey and Flamini in front of them tbh.

Might be an odd thing to say seeing as we conceeded three goals, but I though Merts and Kos had really good games last night in the face of relentless Liverpool pressure and virtually non-existent protection in front of them. The first goal wasn't really their fault (Theo mainly but also Cech and Nacho) and the second was a worldie - should have done better for the third but those happen.

The problem wasn't starting them ahead of Gabriel but instead not bringing Gabriel on at the end to shore things up. Wenger instead went for Arteta - personally with hindsight I think bringing Gabriel on and playing three at the back may have prevented the third goal.

[fakeyank]

Prime Maldini/Nesta or Vidic/Rio would have struggled with Ramsey and Flamini in front of them tbh.

Might be an odd thing to say seeing as we conceeded three goals, but I though Merts and Kos had really good games last night in the face of relentless Liverpool pressure and virtually non-existent protection in front of them. The first goal wasn't really their fault (Theo mainly but also Cech and Nacho) and the second was a worldie - should have done better for the third but those happen.

The problem wasn't starting them ahead of Gabriel but instead not bringing Gabriel on at the end to shore things up. Wenger instead went for Arteta - personally with hindsight I think bringing Gabriel on and playing three at the back may have prevented the third goal.

Second goal was Merts fault.. his clearance was horrible and he fell down like a lump of coal and awkwardly kicked it to a Liverpool player. He also couldnt get the ball out of defense without a panic. Anytime he got the ball and Liverpool pressed, he seemed to make a panic pass putting pressure on the other players. I will agree that he did better in the second half, but his first half was as bad as I have seen him play.

[Özim]

Tony Adams wasn't quick but he read the game really well and made up for his lack of pace, Mertersacker has none of that for me, the sooner we see the back of him the better IMO, players likes him have been a plague in the last decade of the Wenger era, players just not really up to scratch we've had to put up with for year after year.

[Maestro]

That is because Coquelin was protecting them! Papering over the cracks so to say.

Surely that's Coquelin's job! Show me a defence without some form of midfield screen, and I'll show a dick fucking round without a condom ....no amount of penicillin will be able to fix the inevitable diseases that it will eventually catch.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not so sure about that one either. We lost our opening two champs league games with Kos and Gabriel along with the Chelsea game. I'm not sure that would be an instant fix but wouldn't mind seeing a change.

Nothing can be judged on either of those games except how poor our manager is.

[mastermind84]

Kos gets way too much leeway imo. It's only until Merts showed up that he started playing well. It was a good partnership.
TBF, he was playing with an utter spastic in Vermaelen




The defense has been great this year. A lot of short memory types here.

[mastermind84]

Tony Adams wasn't quick but he read the game really well and made up for his lack of pace, Mertersacker has none of that for me, the sooner we see the back of him the better IMO, players likes him have been a plague in the last decade of the Wenger era, players just not really up to scratch we've had to put up with for year after year.

This is utter nonsense lol.

[mastermind84]

Prime Maldini/Nesta or Vidic/Rio would have struggled with Ramsey and Flamini in front of them tbh.

Might be an odd thing to say seeing as we conceeded three goals, but I though Merts and Kos had really good games last night in the face of relentless Liverpool pressure and virtually non-existent protection in front of them. The first goal wasn't really their fault (Theo mainly but also Cech and Nacho) and the second was a worldie - should have done better for the third but those happen.

The problem wasn't starting them ahead of Gabriel but instead not bringing Gabriel on at the end to shore things up. Wenger instead went for Arteta - personally with hindsight I think bringing Gabriel on and playing three at the back may have prevented the third goal.
they did, both played really well last night. Cant fault them for anything, really.

[Globalgunner]

they did, both played really well last night. Cant fault them for anything, really.

We conceded 3 goals including a last minute equaliser and you see no fault in the 2 CBs. We for years used to win games 1-0 now we cant win a game after scoring 3. I certainly dont want you on a fact finding review team. The plane crashed, all souls lost and your report will likely say. It could have been worse.

[Özim]

We conceded 3 goals including a last minute equaliser and you see no fault in the 2 CBs. We for years used to win games 1-0 now we cant win a game after scoring 3. I certainly dont want you on a fact finding review team. The plane crashed, all souls lost and your report will likely say. It could have been worse.

lol seems it's not the defence's fault at all if we concede 3 goals, it's the midfields.

If you concede 3 goals, unless you're very unlucky and beaten by 3 wonders strikes then it's the defences fault, the CB's were certainly at fault in some part.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Walcott was to blame for their opener
Defence stood off too much for their second
And got beaten too easily in the air by Benteke for the third

Defences will make mistake even the team with the best defensive record in the league Spurs marked abysmally for Leicesters goal on Wednesday.

You can never say defenders aren't to blame for goals conceeded, but without Coquelin in the side it's also fair to say they have to deal with more pressure with less protection.

Mertesacker was poor first half at Anfield second half made a lot of good clearances, tackles and interceptions.

[Power n Glory]

Walcott was to blame for their opener
Defence stood off too much for their second
And got beaten too easily in the air by Benteke for the third

Defences will make mistake even the team with the best defensive record in the league Spurs marked abysmally for Leicesters goal on Wednesday.

You can never say defenders aren't to blame for goals conceeded, but without Coquelin in the side it's also fair to say they have to deal with more pressure with less protection.

Mertesacker was poor first half at Anfield second half made a lot of good clearances, tackles and interceptions.

I think the first goal was a combination of errors. Cech should have done better with his save and I think Kos wasn't on his toes to stop the shot in the first place but need to watch the replays.

Third goal I thought Kos wasn't marking well to win the ball in the air and Bellerin wasn't marking Allen well.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Indeed, but as I reiterate defenders make mistakes and largely most if not all goals are a result of defensive mistakes.

For the first goal I think Cech just genuinely doesn't know which way Firminho is going to go but I reiterate if Walcott hadn't tried to play the ball out in the first place we wouldn't have been in that position.

Koscielny is a great defender but he's far from perfect and makes mistakes, at Southampton he was diabolical (but to a man pretty much everyone was).

Nothing suggests to me that there are serious issues with defence. I think long term we could do with replacing Mertesacker with a better, younger model. Frankly in the summer id offer Everton an offer they can't refuse for both Lukaku and Stones.

[selassie]

I bet we'd see an improvement right across the backline with every player benefiting. Kos could play one position instead of two, the fullbacks wouldn't then have to cover random and gaping holes appearing as Merts tries to get up steam and move himself from one spot to another on the pitch. The German is decent enough covering set pieces but when the play is mobile and with any sort of pace he might as well be at home with his feet up. Added to that he slows everything down when he gets all those fucking backpasses from the midfield. And his distribution is lousy if he attempts anything other than a square ball to either side. He's not the worst but he's not good enough for us.

Hmmm..that's very debatable. I'm not happy with Merts performances either but I really don't think bringing Gabriel in will improve us that much...if at all. Gabriel or Kos are not perfect, Gabriel especially is quite naïve in his positional play, he obviously makes up for that with his speed which Merts doesn't have.

Gabriel's distribution is even worse than Merts, it's one area he really needs to improve.

The defence are accountable for conceding goals but without the protection from Midfield they are like lambs to a slaughter. I stand by my opinion that if we had Caz and Coq in midfield or a more disciplined structure to our midfield I.E. not Ramsey & Flamini we would see an improvement in our defensive play.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Statistically Gabriel has the second best pass completion rate of any defender in the league

[Power n Glory]

No point in getting into it on pass completion for our defenders on that game. I think Liverpool's pressing game and our lack of midfield just put pressure on the defenders.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I was more responding to the issue of poor ball distribution.

[Power n Glory]

That was more an overall response starting from what NQ said about Merts. He's not usually that bad at passing the ball and often high up the list when comes to completing passes.

[Niall_Quinn]

That was more an overall response starting from what NQ said about Merts. He's not usually that bad at passing the ball and often high up the list when comes to completing passes.

He's safe and accurate enough with his slow, sideways passing. Wouldn't argue with that.

[Power n Glory]

He's safe and accurate enough with his slow, sideways passing. Wouldn't argue with that.

What do you expect from defender though? He shouldn't be taking risks and I also think it's the responsibility of the two deep midfielders to collect the ball and protect it.

[Niall_Quinn]

What do you expect from defender though? He shouldn't be taking risks and I also think it's the responsibility of the two deep midfielders to collect the ball and protect it.

It's a big deal if defenders can pick a pass from time to time, nothing spectacular just a forward ball to keep the momentum rolling when you have a grip on the game. The other three can do it. But everything grinds to a halt when Merts gets the ball, everyone knows what he's going to do. It's probably Wenger anyway. Wenger's new found love for slowing the tempo, especially when we are on top, is a pain in the hole.

[Power n Glory]

It's a big deal if defenders can pick a pass from time to time, nothing spectacular just a forward ball to keep the momentum rolling when you have a grip on the game. The other three can do it. But everything grinds to a halt when Merts gets the ball, everyone knows what he's going to do. It's probably Wenger anyway. Wenger's new found love for slowing the tempo, especially when we are on top, is a pain in the hole.

That's unture because he's often the defender that makes the most passes and it's been that way for a while. I think you may be seeing extra.

[selassie]

Statistically Gabriel has the second best pass completion rate of any defender in the league

Yes just seen the stats on sky sports website, it's surprised me to be honest, both Gabriel & Merts are pretty much equal. I always viewed Gabriel as the most insecure on the ball out of our CB's.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's unture because he's often the defender that makes the most passes and it's been that way for a while. I think you may be seeing extra.

He might well make the most passes. All negative, all sideways, all momentum killing. Watch him next match. Okay, so sometimes, on occasion, he'll try something more ambitious. Which basically means, guaranteed loss of possession. The guy is average. If we are okay with average then fine. If we want to press on then surely this is his last season.

[Power n Glory]

He might well make the most passes. All negative, all sideways, all momentum killing. Watch him next match. Okay, so sometimes, on occasion, he'll try something more ambitious. Which basically means, guaranteed loss of possession. The guy is average. If we are okay with average then fine. If we want to press on then surely this is his last season.

What momentum are you expecting when the ball is being passed around the back line or from keeper to CB for him to kill? Why in the world would you want your CB to play risky passes? The DM and CM should be trying those sort of passes along with the wing backs. I think you're inventing a stick to beat him with.

[Özim]

He might well make the most passes. All negative, all sideways, all momentum killing. Watch him next match. Okay, so sometimes, on occasion, he'll try something more ambitious. Which basically means, guaranteed loss of possession. The guy is average. If we are okay with average then fine. If we want to press on then surely this is his last season.

I'm with you on this one, he's very negative in his passing, it's easy to have good passing stats if you take the easy option every time and don't look to be adventurous or go forward, I don't understand how people can rate this guy, he excels at nothing and really brings nothing to our team, his pace is a huge issue as well, good defenders make up for their lack of pace with anticipation or good reading of the game, he doesn't.