Has Wenger faiiled to develop our young players?

[Power n Glory]

Has Wenger failed to develop our young players? I’m talking the academy level players. The kids that turn up around the age of 16 – 18. I think Wenger has proven his chops when it comes to improving more established players or those in their early 20s but when it comes to the very raw players, the blank canvas types, I think it’s worth looking at his record. He’s been here for a long time and I think it’s fair to say we’ve produced underwhelming players. Seeing the flaws in Ox’s game and Ramsey’s during the SToke game sparked this conversation. In fact, NQ made a point in the match thread.


Theo USED to have that fluidity to his game. Ox USED to have that fluidity to his game. Ramsey USED to have that fluidity to his game. That's why we got all excited about their potential. Wenger will coach it out of Iwobi too. Can it really be that all these players just aren't up to scratch? The Arshavins, Velas, Podolskis, Afobes, Gnabrys, Akpoms. The Wilsheres. Yeah, the majority won't make the top level but who has Wenger really made? Henry, Bergkamp, Pires, Ozil? These are self made players. Alexis is another one. The old back four, George Graham's. Campbell? Coquelin? Wenger wanted rid. Chambers was on fire when he first arrived, now he's burnt to a crisp. I hear Monsieur is thinking about signing back a Turkish kid he got rid of who, lo and behold, has suddenly found his feet in spectacular fashion - at another club. I believed Ox was going to be the next big thing in football when I first saw him play. Now look at him. Well on the way to becoming the next Theo Walcott.

One common factor.

We know these players can pass, move, perform at pace. We've seen them score and participate in some of the best goals you'll ever see. The talent is there. But look at Ox, is he a winger or a central midfielder? Ramsey, same question. Walcott, same question. I'm shocked Wenger didn't start Cech on the wing when he first arrived. Wenger is all about slamming square pegs in round holes. Playing tactics that disadvantage us and favour the opposition. Playing systems that isolate and put our players under pressure. We put in a decent performance, what, about 1 in 8 games now? That's because Wenger's one-trick pony is bound to find suitable opposition every once in a while.

We played right into Stoke's hands yesterday. Of course. Never once utilised the advantages we had over them. Played that ponderous crappy style that Wenger loves so much. We lost the key player who can make Wenger's tippy tappy flow with a purpose. What we really saw yesterday was another example of the players not being able to make Wenger's crackpot system work. But I bet they'd be twice as effective under a manager who could knit them into a team rather than leave them isolated as individuals. Great spirit, Wenger said. Well great passing, great movement, great purpose, those would be useful too.

This season he's being propped up by the general decline in standards across the league and the fallout from the mercenary cultures at chavland and gypoland. People are confusing this with Wenger being a decent manager. He's not. Hasn't been for a long time.

Decent bloke, of course. Decent manager? Watch us play and decide.

Thoughts? Is this accurate?

[Marc Overmars]

I think it's a fair point to raise. With the exception of Ramsey who is obviously a better player now, I don't think we have any other players schooled by Wenger that look better 3-5 years down the line than when they entered the first team set up.

Give Wenger an ordinary player beyond his formative years and he'll most likely elevate their game to a new level, not sure he has that midas touch with youngsters who may not necessarily be the most naturally gifted and require a lot of coaching.

It will be interesting to see how Bellerin turns out in a few years.

[I am invisible]

I agree that they're not exactly filling their full potential yet, but we're still talking about players who are functioning at Premier league and European level here - that still puts them at a very high standard, even if they often leave us feeling a little disappointed in them because we know they could (and should) be even better still?

In terms of why they're failing to hit their full potential, then you'd have to look at Wenger, and the general standard of coaching at the club as one of the reasons - that's only fair. But I think you've also got to look at things like simple hunger and motivation - at focus and willingness to listen and learn (or adapt where necessary). Are these young players earning too much, too soon? Do they have too many phonies whispering in their ears, telling them that they're great, and that they deserve this or that when they haven't actually achieved anything yet? Do the British lads feel a little too safe because of these ridiculous quotas that we have to meet - have they lost the fear? Are we simply trying to develop too many players at once, and failing to give each one the attention they really need? Is there too much competition for places now? Have we lacked experience and mentors in the senior squad? Is there just a bit of a shortage of truly top class players coming through at the moment? Could be a lot of things (and probably is)...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Maybe just maybe they weren't that good in the first place.

If we take Walcott as a paradigm case, would he have ever really become world class under someone else's tutelage....sometimes you either have it or you don't.

[Marc Overmars]

Maybe just maybe they weren't that good in the first place.

If we take Walcott as a paradigm case, would he have ever really become world class under someone else's tutelage....sometimes you either have it or you don't.

No surprises that some of the players under question are the expensive English acquisitions.

[rodders]

Even Wengers biggest fans have doubts about his coaching ability.

[Letters]

What happened to all those young players? Some years back we were playing kids in the league cup who were beating PL sides, it boded (bade?) well for the future.
Not sure where they all went.

[Niall_Quinn]

It all went to shit when we switched from Project Blitzkrieg to Barca Lite. Our early teams under Wenger and the type of player he brought in was the opposite to what we have now. The football has suffered, the results have suffered, the entertainment has suffered and the trophy cabinet has dropped dead. He changed his philosophy and he;s been too stubborn to admit that change has been one giant failure. A failure by comparison at least. In terms of being consistently average, it has all been a great success. The spectacular moved from the pitch to the boardroom and the balance sheet. Big shame.

[fakeyank]

I think Wenger has special difficulty working with British players. I am still on the edge with Ramsey but other than him, I look at Theo, Ox and Wilshere. They all have/had potential but are utter crap now.

Wengers saving grace with regards to young players are Bellerin and Cesc. Both Barca rejects who have done exceptionally well.

[mastermind84]

Maybe just maybe they weren't that good in the first place.

If we take Walcott as a paradigm case, would he have ever really become world class under someone else's tutelage....sometimes you either have it or you don't.
The correct answer

Not every young player we sign is a world beater.

[Kano]

The correct answer

Not every young player we sign is a world beater.

I think we need to look on a broader scale at other clubs and how many they have developed over the years, particularly the English ones. Very scarce pickings for a reason.

And development of players comes down to far more than just the manager.

[Power n Glory]

Maybe the players we've had haven't been that good. But then why not? We have to be one of biggest clubs in England dedicated to developing young talent and then blooding them in the first team. We've been at it for over 10 years so I would have thought we'd have gotten lucky at some point. It's not as if our scouts weren't looking for the next big thing in football and dedicated years to finding that player.

Putting aside developing a great individual player, I also question why we never had a class that graduated from the ranks and went into the first team to form a strong unit. The vision was taken from Ajax and some of the players that grew up playing together in the academy and eventually made it to the first team. That team with the De Boar brothers, Kluivert, Davids, Seedorf, Van der Sar, etc. We've that youth graduation system at Barca and even United's treble team with Beckham, Scholes and the Neville brothers. How comes we end up with the Hoyte brothers instead? How comes the guys that came up under Bould are looking like they won't even make it into the first team?

I just would have thought we'd have done better considering our resources and the time we've put into this.

[hobson's choice]

I think it's a fair point to raise. With the exception of Ramsey who is obviously a better player now, I don't think we have any other players schooled by Wenger that look better 3-5 years down the line than when they entered the first team set up.

Give Wenger an ordinary player beyond his formative years and he'll most likely elevate their game to a new level, not sure he has that midas touch with youngsters who may not necessarily be the most naturally gifted and require a lot of coaching.

It will be interesting to see how Bellerin turns out in a few years.

Other than goal scoring how has Ramsey improved as CM, not a particular good passer, lacks discipline, cant control a game. Doesnt understand how to set an attack from the CM position at all. Our midfield has look downright garbage at times when he's part of the midfield 2.

[mastermind84]

Maybe the players we've had haven't been that good. But then why not? We have to be one of biggest clubs in England dedicated to developing young talent and then blooding them in the first team. We've been at it for over 10 years so I would have thought we'd have gotten lucky at some point. It's not as if our scouts weren't looking for the next big thing in football and dedicated years to finding that player.

Putting aside developing a great individual player, I also question why we never had a class that graduated from the ranks and went into the first team to form a strong unit. The vision was taken from Ajax and some of the players that grew up playing together in the academy and eventually made it to the first team. That team with the De Boar brothers, Kluivert, Davids, Seedorf, Van der Sar, etc. We've that youth graduation system at Barca and even United's treble team with Beckham, Scholes and the Neville brothers. How comes we end up with the Hoyte brothers instead? How comes the guys that came up under Bould are looking like they won't even make it into the first team?

I just would have thought we'd have done better considering our resources and the time we've put into this.

you dont understand why this is nonsense, do you?

A) this is extremely hard to do. If it were as easy as you are making it, United and Ajax would have done it every year since. they have not because its damn hard. United havent even put through a top youth player since that class of 1992. Who was the last great player to even come out of Ajax Academy? Im struggling to think, but it may actually be Seedorf.

B) Unless im mistaken, dont all of you guys love Wilshere and wish he would come back? He can run matches? Arsenal DNA, innit? What academy did he come from? Kieran Gibbs became an English international and is only behind the best left back in the premiership.

You guys do not understand how difficult it is to do what you want. Even Barcelona had to get Busquets, Messi, and Iniesta from other clubs

[mastermind84]

Other than goal scoring how has Ramsey improved as CM, not a particular good passer, lacks discipline, cant control a game. Doesnt understand how to set an attack from the CM position at all. Our midfield has look downright garbage at times when he's part of the midfield 2.

Ramsey aint been that good (altho he was really good against Stoke) but Flamini is the bigger problem. He has no legs and is afraid of the ball.

[Power n Glory]

you dont understand why this is nonsense, do you?

A) this is extremely hard to do. If it were as easy as you are making it, United and Ajax would have done it every year since. they have not because its damn hard. United havent even put through a top youth player since that class of 1992. Who was the last great player to even come out of Ajax Academy? Im struggling to think, but it may actually be Seedorf.

B) Unless im mistaken, dont all of you guys love Wilshere and wish he would come back? He can run matches? Arsenal DNA, innit? What academy did he come from? Kieran Gibbs became an English international and is only behind the best left back in the premiership.

You guys do not understand how difficult it is to do what you want. Even Barcelona had to get Busquets, Messi, and Iniesta from other clubs

Why is a question nonsense? :doh: It was our intention to create a system similar to what Ajax and Barca had from our youth system and we dedicated time and money to it. Poaching some of the best players from across the globe to try and create that system. Is it fair to say we failed? I didn't say it was easy to do. It was a question. :doh: Also, I wonder why these players aren't graduating to the first team.

Gibbs isn't a first teamer anymore and has lost his place to Monreal. Wilshere is always injured but would probably struggle to get into the first team too. Also, don't assume to know people's position on a player. That's nonsense. A few people don't rate Wilshere that highly. I don't.

We don't need to understand how difficult it is to produce a top player or solid first team player. I'm sure it is and I'm sure the Arsenal camp know it's difficult but we set ourselevs a task of producing a title winning team from that difficult system and it hasn't happened. Why is the question.

[Power n Glory]

Other than goal scoring how has Ramsey improved as CM, not a particular good passer, lacks discipline, cant control a game. Doesnt understand how to set an attack from the CM position at all. Our midfield has look downright garbage at times when he's part of the midfield 2.

I fear Ramsey is following in the same footsteps as Cesc Fabregas in terms of development. Different players with different attributes but it seems as though all the focus on their development went on scoring more goals and everything else got pushed to the wayside. Cesc was a great passer and could control the game from the midfield. He should have been a Xavi or Pirlo. His biggest weakness was the defensive discipline but Wenger had no interest in tightening that part of his game up it seems. Instead of keeping him as a CM, teaching discipline in his movement, working hard to win the ball back, he pushed him up field to a number 10 role so he could get more goals and not have to defend. So that effected how we controlled games because he wasn’t further down the pitch dictating the tempo of a game. Neglecting that side of his game effected his career at Barca and Pep didn’t trust him as CM so he’d play as a striker!

Now I see a similar pattern with Ramsey. As you rightly point out, it’s just the goal scoring that’s improved and everything else about his game hasn’t. He’s not a good passer of the ball and he has no positional awareness. You’re right about him not knowing how to set up an attack from the CM and that’s why Rosicky and Cazorla are so much better at it than him. But it seems like we have no interest in developing that side of his game. It’s why I question him getting played on the wing and Wenger praising the quality of his runs. That’s great but can we at least get him functioning as a CM that can control the flow of the game? He has a terrific engine and not afraid of making a tackle. I worry about his development because it looks like a similar pattern.

Way too much focus on scoring goals for some players. You only have to look at Ozil’s comments today about adding more goals to his game. Or take Walcott as another example where all wing play and build has been neglected and he’s just allowed to hang on the shoulder of defenders making runs all day instead of actually getting in the ball and dribbling. The balance just isn’t right when you look at it.

[Özim]

We've spent a fortune on our youth setup, buying in players at 15-16 for a the odd million or two and have literally bought hundreds of players in, that was our primary focus for years, yes we have had a few successes but I personally think the results have been very underwhelming.

We've had youth teams winning trophies and barely a player coming through, we've had young players around the 1st team for years who just haven't improved or have regressed and often we've missed out on top talents that were available at the very clubs we bought some of our kids from (which is even more disappointing).

I really don't feel Wenger is that great with youth players, getting players off the Barca setup seems to be his best bet, as clearly Barca's setup is pretty special.

[Özim]

I fear Ramsey is following in the same footsteps as Cesc Fabregas in terms of development. Different players with different attributes but it seems as though all the focus on their development went on scoring more goals and everything else got pushed to the wayside. Cesc was a great passer and could control the game from the midfield. He should have been a Xavi or Pirlo. His biggest weakness was the defensive discipline but Wenger had no interest in tightening that part of his game up it seems. Instead of keeping him as a CM, teaching discipline in his movement, working hard to win the ball back, he pushed him up field to a number 10 role so he could get more goals and not have to defend. So that effected how we controlled games because he wasn’t further down the pitch dictating the tempo of a game. Neglecting that side of his game effected his career at Barca and Pep didn’t trust him as CM so he’d play as a striker!

Now I see a similar pattern with Ramsey. As you rightly point out, it’s just the goal scoring that’s improved and everything else about his game hasn’t. He’s not a good passer of the ball and he has no positional awareness. You’re right about him not knowing how to set up an attack from the CM and that’s why Rosicky and Cazorla are so much better at it than him. But it seems like we have no interest in developing that side of his game. It’s why I question him getting played on the wing and Wenger praising the quality of his runs. That’s great but can we at least get him functioning as a CM that can control the flow of the game? He has a terrific engine and not afraid of making a tackle. I worry about his development because it looks like a similar pattern.

Way too much focus on scoring goals for some players. You only have to look at Ozil’s comments today about adding more goals to his game. Or take Walcott as another example where all wing play and build has been neglected and he’s just allowed to hang on the shoulder of defenders making runs all day instead of actually getting in the ball and dribbling. The balance just isn’t right when you look at it.

Wenger has no interest in the defensive side of the game, he just thinks about the offensive side, his comments a number of years ago about more points for goals highlight this, Barcelona turning up with their tippy tappy football many years ago was the worst thing that could have happened to us because Wenger has taken this as the blueprint and put all of our focus on attack (although they also had a very hard working team, even if they did look vulnerable defensively at times).

Football is about more than attacking, a solid defensive unit is sometimes required to snatch results when you're not playing well. The irony is offensively we're nowhere near as good as we could be either.

[Power n Glory]

It seems that way. You can see a pattern in the sort of young players he's helped develop. It's fine to focus on a player like Ozil getting goals although I find it odd that Ozil has spoken out in public to contradict Wenger. See below.

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/i-dont-need-add-goals-my-game-ozil

[Letters]

Gabriel, Chambers and Cech are 3 of his most recent signings.
I generally agree he is more attach minded but he's signed a 'keeper and 2 defensive players in the last year or so.

[Power n Glory]

Gabriel, Chambers and Cech are 3 of his most recent signings.
I generally agree he is more attach minded but he's signed a 'keeper and 2 defensive players in the last year or so.

We're not talking about signings or recent signings. It's about development.

[Letters]

I was responding to Zim's assertion that Wenger has "no interest" in defence.

[Power n Glory]

I was responding to Zim's assertion that Wenger has "no interest" in defence.

And he's responding to what I said about developed players lacking defensive discipline. Keep up, lad. :lol: This isn't about signings.

[Özim]

I was responding to Zim's assertion that Wenger has "no interest" in defence.

Our keepers were a disaster zone, he'd have been foolish not to sign a new keeper as they were costing us points, Chambers is a kid who let's be honest isn't great at the moment (not too sure what made us sign him as he wasn't one of the standout players at Southampton), I wouldn't call signing him as a sign he's trying to improve the defence more that he wants another project. Gabriel is good I'll give you that, but we were short of CB's so needed some cover.

I'm not saying he doesn't sign defensive players, every team needs 4 defenders a goalkeeper etc etc more that it's not something he focusses on in training or in developing players. He made Gibbs a full back and the guy was a winger and can't defend for toffee and never has been able to and we've seen little improvement on that side with him.

I just don't think players defensive awareness improves under Wenger because he put so much focus on attacking, even our full backs have to roam forward and attack. The comment PNG makes about Ramsey and goals is testament to that, he could be a great all round player, instead his primary focus is goals.

[Kano]

Our keepers were a disaster zone, he'd have been foolish not to sign a new keeper as they were costing us points, Chambers is a kid who let's be honest isn't great at the moment (not too sure what made us sign him as he wasn't one of the standout players at Southampton), I wouldn't call signing him as a sign he's trying to improve the defence more that he wants another project. Gabriel is good I'll give you that, but we were short of CB's so needed some cover.

I'm not saying he doesn't sign defensive players, every team needs 4 defenders a goalkeeper etc etc more that it's not something he focusses on in training or in developing players. He made Gibbs a full back and the guy was a winger and can't defend for toffee and never has been able to and we've seen little improvement on that side with him.

I just don't think players defensive awareness improves under Wenger because he put so much focus on attacking, even our full backs have to roam forward and attack. The comment PNG makes about Ramsey and goals is testament to that, he could be a great all round player, instead his primary focus is goals.

Not sure that is true about our defence. Bellerin is one of most promising full backs in the league, Monreal is potentially the best left back and Koscienly one of the mostly highly rated CB’s in the league. Full backs from every team go forward on a regular basis, which is why in the modern game you need team mates that are willing to work back and there is no room for luxury players only willing to concentrate on attack. It’s the way of the modern game. And I will go back to your statement that you do not watch a lot of football anymore, so your judgement on this is not the most accurate.

What we’re seeing at the moment is a team with no central midfield and a defence completely exposed with no protection because Ramsey and Flamini are not a pairing that works at all. A look at our goals against column shows we are as good as our competitors. As was the case last season. You may then go on to say Cech is the reason we don’t concede much and of course that is partly the case because every successful team needs a top class goalkeeper to succeed. Why? Because he’ll save his team mates arses on several occasions throughout the year. And let’s not forget Cech wasn’t here last season when our defence improved on the previous years mess. Since we’ve seen Bould join the set-up our defence has improved – hardly a coincidence and unless you are spying every week at London Colney, you have no idea of knowing how much work we do or do not put in on the training pitch defensively.

[I am invisible]

I think we're very much approaching this from the POV of the player, and what they regard as their best position - from that perspective then, yeah, you'd have to look at it and say that we're not really adding much to their games, or coaching any new abilities into them.

However, I'm not sure this is how Wenger looks at it - I think he sees it from a more functional, 'play to your strengths' perspective, and will try to find a player a role in the side based on what they're best at (which isn't always what the player thinks they're best at, or where they thought they'd be playing)? Coquelin's probably the most recent example, albeit a fairly subtle one - by all accounts, he was trying to play beyond his ability as a central midfielder, and was losing his way by trying to add too much attacking play to his game until Wenger took him to one side and told him to just focus on the defensive side of the job. Thankfully he took it on board, and he's now focussing on doing one job to a world class standard before he starts pissing around with anything else.

Generally speaking, I think the success stories are the players who are humble and honest enough to accept our assessment (or reassessment) of their abilities, and who embrace the role we give them. And the ones who fail to make any significant impact are the ones who never quite find a place in the side: either they never fully accept the job that we give them, and their ego (or entourage!) tell them that they're destined for other things (sadly all too common with a lot of these teenage millionaires); or they simply don't have any one skill or attribute that makes them anything special, and we never really find a specific job for them beyond being a bit of a utility man (there's still a good career to be had in that, but it probably won't be a glamorous one)?

[Letters]

How much of a player's development is in the manager or coach's hands anyway?
Surely the player needs to have the innate ability.
Are our players going elsewhere and then becoming real superstars? If so then maybe we are hindering their development. If not then maybe they're just not that good to begin with. And the reason for that is surely that at most clubs most young players fail to make it to the very top. If they did then the standard of the PL would surely be a lot higher than it is.

[Power n Glory]

I think we're very much approaching this from the POV of the player, and what they regard as their best position - from that perspective then, yeah, you'd have to look at it and say that we're not really adding much to their games, or coaching any new abilities into them.

However, I'm not sure this is how Wenger looks at it - I think he sees it from a more functional, 'play to your strengths' perspective, and will try to find a player a role in the side based on what they're best at (which isn't always what the player thinks they're best at, or where they thought they'd be playing)? Coquelin's probably the most recent example, albeit a fairly subtle one - by all accounts, he was trying to play beyond his ability as a central midfielder, and was losing his way by trying to add too much attacking play to his game until Wenger took him to one side and told him to just focus on the defensive side of the job. Thankfully he took it on board, and he's now focussing on doing one job to a world class standard before he starts pissing around with anything else.

Generally speaking, I think the success stories are the players who are humble and honest enough to accept our assessment (or reassessment) of their abilities, and who embrace the role we give them. And the ones who fail to make any significant impact are the ones who never quite find a place in the side: either they never fully accept the job that we give them, and their ego (or entourage!) tell them that they're destined for other things (sadly all too common with a lot of these teenage millionaires); or they simply don't have any one skill or attribute that makes them anything special, and we never really find a specific job for them beyond being a bit of a utility man (there's still a good career to be had in that, but it probably won't be a glamorous one)?

I think Theo, Cesc, Ox and Gibbs fully embraced Wenger's vision for them but in the long run I think it's stunted their development. Coquelin is an interesting one because he was on his way out the door until we had injuries.

Who would we consider the success stories from our youth development? I'm talking players we picked up in their teens and really raw.

[Power n Glory]

How much of a player's development is in the manager or coach's hands anyway?
Surely the player needs to have the innate ability.
Are our players going elsewhere and then becoming real superstars? If so then maybe we are hindering their development. If not then maybe they're just not that good to begin with. And the reason for that is surely that at most clubs most young players fail to make it to the very top. If they did then the standard of the PL would surely be a lot higher than it is.

Let’s say they weren’t that good to begin with. How comes we dedicated so much time an energy to players that weren’t good enough? Why is it that we looked at Southampton’s academy and picked up Walcott instead of Bale? How comes Wenger thought he had his best team or was so confident these players would be great? Not saying it’s easy to project greatness but I wonder what it is we’re looking at when scouting and training players.

[Letters]

Loads of people were saying nice things about Walcott when we signed him. I remember this passage from Fever Pitch talking about Gus Caesar and gives some thoughts about young players making it, or not:


At school he must have been much, much better than his peers, so he gets picked for the school team, and then some representative side, South London Boys or what have you; and he's still better than anyone else in the team, by miles, so the scouts come to watch, and he's offered an apprenticeship not with Fulham or Brentford or even West Ham but with the mighty Arsenal. And it's still not over, even then, because if you look at any First Division youth team of five years ago you won't recognize most of the names, because most of them have disappeared. (Here's the Arsenal youth team of April 1987, from a randomly plucked programme: Miller, Hannigan, McGregor, Hillier, Scully, Carstairs, Connelly, Rivero, Cagigao, S. Ball, Esqulant. Of those, only Hillier has come through, although Miller is still with us as a highly rated reserve goalkeeper; Scully is still playing professional football somewhere, though not for Arsenal or any other First Division team. The rest have gone, and gone from a club famous for giving its own players a fair crack.)
But Gus survives, and goes on to play for the reserves. And suddenly, it's all on for him: Don Howe is in trouble, and flooding the first team with young players: Niall Quinn, Hayes, Rocastle, Adams, Martin Keown. And when Viv Anderson is suspended over Christmas 1985 Gus makes his debut as part of a back four that's kept a clean sheet away at Manchester United.
Howe gets the sack, and George Graham keeps him on, and he's used as a sub in quite a few games over George's first season, so things are still going well for him-- not as well as they are for Rocky and Hayes and Adams and Quinn, but then these players are having an exceptional first full season, and when the squad for the England Under-21s is announced it's full of Arsenal players, and Gus Caesar is one of them. The England selectors, like the Arsenal fans, are beginning to trust Arsenal's youth policy implicitly, and Gus gets a call-up even though he isn't in the first team regularly. But never mind why, he's in, he's recognised as one of the best twenty or so young players in the whole country.
Now at this point Gus could be forgiven for relaxing his guard a little. He's young, he's got talent, he's committed to the life he's picked, and at least some of the self-doubt that plagues everyone with long-shot dreams must have vanished by now. At this stage you have to rely on the judgment of others (I was relying on the judgments of friends and agents and anyone I could find who would read my stuff and tell me it was OK); and when those others include two Arsenal managers and an England coach then you probably reckon that there isn't much to worry about.
But as it turns out, they are all wrong. So far he has leaped over every hurdle in his path comfortably, but even at this late stage it is possible to be tripped up. Probably the first time we notice that things aren't right is in January 1987, in that first-leg semi-final against Tottenham: Caesar is painfully, obviously, out of his depth against those Spurs forwards. In truth he looks like a rabbit caught in headlights, frozen to the spot until Waddle or Allen or somebody runs him over, and then he starts to thrash about, horribly and pitifully, and finally George and Theo Foley put him out of his misery by substituting him. He doesn't get another chance for a while. The next time I remember him turning out is against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge in a 1-1 draw, a week or two before the Luton final, but again there is a moment in the first half where Dixon runs at him, turns him one way, then the other, then back again, like your dad used to do to you when you were a really little kid in the back garden, and eventually strolls past him and puts the ball just the wrong side of the post. We knew that there was going to be trouble at Wembley, when O'Leary was out injured and Gus was the only candidate to replace him. Caesar leaves it late, but when the ball is knocked into the box seven minutes from time, he mis-kicks so violently that he falls over; at this point he looks like somebody off the street who has won a competition to appear as a centre-half in a Wembley final, and not like a professional footballer at all, and in the ensuing chaos Danny Wilson stoops to head the ball over the line for Luton's equalising goal.
That's it. End of story. He's at the club for another three or four years, but he's very much the last resort centre-back, and he must have known, when George bought Bould and then Linighan and then Pates, with Adams and O'Leary already at the club, that he didn't have much of a future-- he was the sixth in line for two positions. He was given a free transfer at the end of the 90/91 season, to Cambridge United; but within another couple of months they let him go too, to Bristol City, and a couple of months after that Bristol City let him go to Airdrie. To get where he did, Gus Caesar clearly had more talent than nearly everyone of his generation (the rest of us can only dream about having his kind of skill) and it still wasn't quite enough.

[mastermind84]

Why is a question nonsense? :doh: It was our intention to create a system similar to what Ajax and Barca had from our youth system and we dedicated time and money to it. Poaching some of the best players from across the globe to try and create that system. Is it fair to say we failed? I didn't say it was easy to do. It was a question. :doh: Also, I wonder why these players aren't graduating to the first team.

Gibbs isn't a first teamer anymore and has lost his place to Monreal. Wilshere is always injured but would probably struggle to get into the first team too. Also, don't assume to know people's position on a player. That's nonsense. A few people don't rate Wilshere that highly. I don't.

We don't need to understand how difficult it is to produce a top player or solid first team player. I'm sure it is and I'm sure the Arsenal camp know it's difficult but we set ourselevs a task of producing a title winning team from that difficult system and it hasn't happened. Why is the question.

I will say it one more time, when is the last time Ajax produced a world class player? I honestly think it was Seedorf, but I may be wrong. Please tell me when. they are the standards we are holding ourselves too. They themselves have not been able to produce a world class talent since. That should show you this is not easy.

Lets look at Barcelona. they implemented the Ajax system in the late 80s when Cruyff came back to the club. Xavi first came up through that system, then Iniesta, then Busquets and Cesc although they finished their schooling elsewhere. Finally Messi. It took over 20 years for Barcelona to find this group.

How about United? Who is the last world class player they have produced through their academy? Becks?

I mention this because this isnt a magic "flick the switch" thing. It doesnt just happen, and Arsenal play in London as well. To complain that Arsenal havent produced an all time cohort of players through their academy is a nonsensical question. It doesn't happen. Its one thing if we are seeing a bunch of other clubs produce players and Arsenal are lacking, but that is not the case. It just doesnt happen, and its very rare.

No, what Arsenal does is attempt to produce a group of all time player but at the very least sell the players for high costs down the league if it does not work for them. Its effing difficult to just produce one first teamer. Arsenal have produced 2 English internationals in Gibbs and Wilshere and thats not enough for you even though no other team in the top half can say that. (minus Southampton)

Its akin asking "why hasnt Arsenal produced a Messi?"

And I say this even though I question Arsenal's academy and felt it was overrated for a while and felt Wenger is overrated in his youth approach. Wenger is a finishing school type, but I have never seen any example of him producing elite players through his academy. When I say overrated, I mean how the media sees it and how Wenger likes to sell himself. In truth, he is doing exactly what he is supposed to do with the academy.


but we set ourselevs a task of producing a title winning team from that difficult system and it hasn't happened.
Has Wenger or anyone at the club ever said this

[Power n Glory]

I will say it one more time, when is the last time Ajax produced a world class player? I honestly think it was Seedorf, but I may be wrong. Please tell me when. they are the standards we are holding ourselves too. They themselves have not been able to produce a world class talent since. That should show you this is not easy.


:doh: Yes, you are wrong.

Suarez? Ibrahimovic? But that may be cheating because they arrived around 19/20 and they're the young import players that haven't come from the academy.

How about Wesley Sneijder? De Jong? Van der Wiel?

Aren't a couple of Spurs players Ajax boys? Van Vaart and Eriksen? If we're going to talk about international players we can throw Blind in their if we're talking Gibbs and Wilshere. Throw Vermaelen in their too. :lol:

I'm not saying it's a magical flick of the switch. I'm just wondering why and how we dedicated so much time to come up with nothing. Ajax are committed to producing Dutch players from their academy, so they are slightly restricted in what they can do. But if they do what we have done and import young players from an early age before their 20s, you can see they had two of the best strikers in the world at their club early. We attempt to do the same but nothing comes of players like Vela and Denilson. I'm not even asking why we haven't produced a Messi. I'd be happy if we produced players that Premiership level quality and not Championship. Plenty of other Ajax players I could mention.

[Özim]

I will say it one more time, when is the last time Ajax produced a world class player? I honestly think it was Seedorf, but I may be wrong. Please tell me when. they are the standards we are holding ourselves too. They themselves have not been able to produce a world class talent since. That should show you this is not easy.

Lets look at Barcelona. they implemented the Ajax system in the late 80s when Cruyff came back to the club. Xavi first came up through that system, then Iniesta, then Busquets and Cesc although they finished their schooling elsewhere. Finally Messi. It took over 20 years for Barcelona to find this group.

How about United? Who is the last world class player they have produced through their academy? Becks?

I mention this because this isnt a magic "flick the switch" thing. It doesnt just happen, and Arsenal play in London as well. To complain that Arsenal havent produced an all time cohort of players through their academy is a nonsensical question. It doesn't happen. Its one thing if we are seeing a bunch of other clubs produce players and Arsenal are lacking, but that is not the case. It just doesnt happen, and its very rare.

No, what Arsenal does is attempt to produce a group of all time player but at the very least sell the players for high costs down the league if it does not work for them. Its effing difficult to just produce one first teamer. Arsenal have produced 2 English internationals in Gibbs and Wilshere and thats not enough for you even though no other team in the top half can say that. (minus Southampton)

Its akin asking "why hasnt Arsenal produced a Messi?"

And I say this even though I question Arsenal's academy and felt it was overrated for a while and felt Wenger is overrated in his youth approach. Wenger is a finishing school type, but I have never seen any example of him producing elite players through his academy. When I say overrated, I mean how the media sees it and how Wenger likes to sell himself. In truth, he is doing exactly what he is supposed to do with the academy.


Has Wenger or anyone at the club ever said this

Youu're using Gibbs and Wilshere as examples to support the fact we've done ok, please.....one is a crock who's not even a particularly good full back (playing for England means nothing these days, nobodies get picked) and the other is another crock who has been overrated from the day he showed up and has done nothing to justify that hype.

[Özim]

:doh: Yes, you are wrong.

Suarez? Ibrahimovic? But that may be cheating because they arrived around 19/20 and they're the young import players that haven't come from the academy.

How about Wesley Sneijder? De Jong? Van der Wiel?

Aren't a couple of Spurs players Ajax boys? Van Vaart and Eriksen? If we're going to talk about international players we can throw Blind in their if we're talking Gibbs and Wilshere. Throw Vermaelen in their too. :lol:

I'm not saying it's a magical flick of the switch. I'm just wondering why and how we dedicated so much time to come up with nothing. Ajax are committed to producing Dutch players from their academy, so they are slightly restricted in what they can do. But if they do what we have done and import young players from an early age before their 20s, you can see they had two of the best strikers in the world at their club early. We attempt to do the same but nothing comes of players like Vela and Denilson. I'm not even asking why we haven't produced a Messi. I'd be happy if we produced players that Premiership level quality and not Championship. Plenty of other Ajax players I could mention.

Ajax have produced a stream of very good young players since the 90's that's a fact, to this day they still produce some top talent who move on and become top class, to claim otherwise it totally ridiculous.

As for Barca, there's a few other players like Pique, Pedro (you could argue Bellerin) and a few others, but the fact is they also have stacks of money and therefore buy in a lot of top stars thus limiting to some extent the route to the 1st team for young players, we don't have that issue as we've long focussed on young players and allowing them to feature in the 1st team.

[Power n Glory]

Ajax have produced a stream of very good young players since the 90's that's a fact, to this day they still produce some top talent who move on and become top class, to claim otherwise it totally ridiculous.

As for Barca, there's a few other players like Pique, Pedro (you could argue Bellerin) and a few others, but the fact is they also have stacks of money and therefore buy in a lot of top stars thus limiting to some extent the route to the 1st team for young players, we don't have that issue as we've long focussed on young players and allowing them to feature in the 1st team.

It's funny because I was arguing with this same guy about the type of strikers we sign and I questioned why we never signed Suarez from Ajax before Liverpool. Masterminds excuse was the Dutch league and Ajax were shit. ;)

We can extend that further to questioning why is it that Ajax were able to sign Ibrahimovic and Saurez as young players? Did our scouts miss them or not see what they were capable of? We had Ibra here on trail. How comes we end up signing young players that turn out to be so underwhelming? It's not as if we weren't looking for the next big stars at that time. We were poaching the best players from academies across the globe. Taking advantage of 16 year olds turning professional. It's hard to understand why we've been so unlucky. I can understand not producing many talented English local players but we've been poaching the supposedly best players from Spain, Germany, South and Central America, France...we've had scout everywhere so something has gone wrong or we've got some serious bad luck.

Most of the other top teams don't give young players a chance like we do. Mastermind mentions Man Utd but forgets they had Pique and Pogba signed up as young players but never gave them an opportunity. We don't do that. We give our young players chances. Well, most of them. We've got so many, guys like Coquelin and Campbell are discovered late and on the verge of leaving before getting a chance.

[Static]

I think the answer to the question is pretty clear. The answer is a resounding yes. He has failed to teach players the basics of their respective roles.

He is great at improving players who have already learned their trade i.e. the basis of their roles. So expect good things from Elneny, not so much from most of our British core. I actually like Ox, however, with not many experienced heads in the centre of midfield, he may not get the education he truly needs. Santi can help him out but you can't teach the technique that Santi possesses. Nor the ability to work with either foot, that'll come with time, however, how long will the fans bare with someone like Ox?

I think if Pep was to come in, we would see the foundations of our players being built so they wouldn't just be good players on the surface only.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/walcott-has-become-deadly-wenger


Walcott has become deadly - Wenger

Arsene Wenger feels Theo Walcott has become a deadly attacker since joining Arsenal from Southampton in 2006.

Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger believes Theo Walcott has developed into a lethal finisher during his 10 years at the club.

The 26-year-old joined from Southampton in January 2006 and Wenger has been impressed with the England international's development.

"Theo is very intelligent. He always had pace and his movement off the ball was always perfect. I think he is much more conscious of teamwork and he has improved as well in his finishing," Wenger told Arsenal's official website.

"He is absolutely deadly compared to 10 years ago. He needed many chances to score a goal and he can finish very well. His final ball and his technique are much better.

"Ten years here, that shows as well that he loves Arsenal and I'm convinced he will give us much more in the next five years than the last five because he is a player who is always moving forward and trying to do better. He has a very positive attitude.

"A player like him is very difficult to find and Theo's movement off the ball and intelligence is really his brand and [are part of his] characteristics."

Walcott has netted three goals in 16 Premier League appearances in 2015-16.

I'm a supporter of Walcott and think he has potential but I don't think he has blossomed here at all. Is he more deadly? So it's taken us 10 years to get him to improve his finishing? It's still not at a consistent standard that silences his critics so I'm not sure about that. If he's always had his pace and intelligent movement, what about everything else? He's regressed when it comes to dribbling, passing and assists. Since Wenger's had him studying Ljungberg he's stopped dribbling and coming deep to build up play, take on his man...I'm really not convinced.

I've always maintained we should have trained him as a striker but that opportunity is fading fast.

[Marc Overmars]

It's quite something how little he has kicked on in 10 years.

[Power n Glory]

I really don't know what Wenger is talking about in regards to teamwork. His pass attempt and completion stats are quite bad. I don't think he's improved in that areas at all. 69% pass completion 18/26 against Stoke. That's awful.

Campbell in comparison - 85% 35/41.

Theo hardly touches the ball on the wing these days and we'll be lucky if he completes 20 passes in a game.

[Globalgunner]

It's funny because I was arguing with this same guy about the type of strikers we sign and I questioned why we never signed Suarez from Ajax before Liverpool. Masterminds excuse was the Dutch league and Ajax were shit. ;)

We can extend that further to questioning why is it that Ajax were able to sign Ibrahimovic and Saurez as young players? Did our scouts miss them or not see what they were capable of? We had Ibra here on trail. How comes we end up signing young players that turn out to be so underwhelming? It's not as if we weren't looking for the next big stars at that time. We were poaching the best players from academies across the globe. Taking advantage of 16 year olds turning professional. It's hard to understand why we've been so unlucky. I can understand not producing many talented English local players but we've been poaching the supposedly best players from Spain, Germany, South and Central America, France...we've had scout everywhere so something has gone wrong or we've got some serious bad luck.

Most of the other top teams don't give young players a chance like we do. Mastermind mentions Man Utd but forgets they had Pique and Pogba signed up as young players but never gave them an opportunity. We don't do that. We give our young players chances. Well, most of them. We've got so many, guys like Coquelin and Campbell are discovered late and on the verge of leaving before getting a chance.

It is a matter of record that we tried unsuccessfully to sign Ibra even before he went to Ajax. Something along the lines of "Ibrahimovic does not do trials" and Suarez. Well Wenger was still besotted with Chamak at the time so had no eyes for Suarez. when he finally saw the light he offered £1 above the release clause. Pool pretended it did not exist. I blame Suarez` agent. He must be an illiterate not to know what was in the agreement his player recently signed.

[mastermind84]

Yes, you are wrong.

Suarez? Ibrahimovic? But that may be cheating because they arrived around 19/20 and they're the young import players that haven't come from the academy.

so I feel you are changing things.

For one, Ibra and Suarez were not Ajax products. I think Zlatan arrived at 20, and Suarez was either 20 or 21.

You were talking about teenagers or even academy boys.

Saying that, Zlatan and Suarez went to a finishing school for Ajax.

You were asking for Arsenal to do something along the lines of Ajax '95, and the United class of 1992 and Barcelona where those guys were wholly home grown.


How about Wesley Sneijder? De Jong? Van der Wiel?
Sneijder is the only academy boy that was a top player,but his world class level was for a season or two. van Der Wiel and De Jong were never at that level.



Aren't a couple of Spurs players Ajax boys? Van Vaart and Eriksen? If we're going to talk about international players we can throw Blind in their if we're talking Gibbs and Wilshere. Throw Vermaelen in their too.
none of these guys are world class but they were internationals, and Vermaelen is a damn bum. Eriksen came to Ajax at 18.

Also, The point I conteseted, and what you have now moved the goal posts on, is that its hard as hell to create something like the class of 1992 for UNited, Ajax's 1995 Champions League winners, and the Iniesta/Xav/Messi generation for Barcelona. THAT is difficult. If you wanna just mention young players being at Arsenal and being successful, then Ramsey, Wilshere, even Wojeich are all great examples. It seems your argument is all over the place and not focused.


Ajax are committed to producing Dutch players from their academy, so they are slightly restricted in what they can do. But if they do what we have done and import young players from an early age before their 20s, you can see they had two of the best strikers in the world at their club early. We attempt to do the same but nothing comes of players like Vela and Denilson.
this is why your argument is all over the place. You have no focus. You named about 3 or 4 players that "ajax produced" that were not Dutch.

As for the later half, you named those two while dismissing Theo, Ramsey, Coquelin (who was by luck, but he did go through Arsenal), and Bellerin. Its a nonsense argument.

Even using Vela, we signed him for like 500K and got about 11 million for him. He could not have been that bad, no?

denilson was a player but he lost his confidence.


Youu're using Gibbs and Wilshere as examples to support the fact we've done ok, please.....one is a crock who's not even a particularly good full back (playing for England means nothing these days, nobodies get picked) and the other is another crock who has been overrated from the day he showed up and has done nothing to justify that hype.
great, now what has chelsea done? or liverpool?



It's funny because I was arguing with this same guy about the type of strikers we sign and I questioned why we never signed Suarez from Ajax before Liverpool. Masterminds excuse was the Dutch league and Ajax were shit. ;)

We can extend that further to questioning why is it that Ajax were able to sign Ibrahimovic and Saurez as young players? Did our scouts miss them or not see what they were capable of? We had Ibra here on trail. How comes we end up signing young players that turn out to be so underwhelming? It's not as if we weren't looking for the next big stars at that time. We were poaching the best players from academies across the globe. Taking advantage of 16 year olds turning professional. It's hard to understand why we've been so unlucky. I can understand not producing many talented English local players but we've been poaching the supposedly best players from Spain, Germany, South and Central America, France...we've had scout everywhere so something has gone wrong or we've got some serious bad luck.

Most of the other top teams don't give young players a chance like we do. Mastermind mentions Man Utd but forgets they had Pique and Pogba signed up as young players but never gave them an opportunity. We don't do that. We give our young players chances. Well, most of them. We've got so many, guys like Coquelin and Campbell are discovered late and on the verge of leaving before getting a chance.

I said the Dutch league is shit, tbf. That may have colored the view on Suarez.

Why mention Zlatan? We had him come to the club and could not agree to terms. You act like no effort was made or the club never knew he existed.


and mentioning Pogba and Pique muddles your bad argument even more because you dont acknowledge that we signed Fabregas, ffs.

[mastermind84]

Ajax have produced a stream of very good young players since the 90's that's a fact, to this day they still produce some top talent who move on and become top class, to claim otherwise it totally ridiculous.

the only genuine top class player they've produced in 20 years was fucking Sneijder. This is just not true. But they do produce a lot of players in top leagues. They could be at bottom feeding clubs, but they still do export a large number.

http://static.guim.co.uk/ni/1424955705505/european-foolball_3.svg

http://static.guim.co.uk/ni/1424946448621/european-foolball.svg

[selassie]

the only genuine top class player they've produced in 20 years was fucking Sneijder. This is just not true. But they do produce a lot of players in top leagues. They could be at bottom feeding clubs, but they still do export a large number.

http://static.guim.co.uk/ni/1424955705505/european-foolball_3.svg

http://static.guim.co.uk/ni/1424946448621/european-foolball.svg


They may have been mentioned already but Van Der Vaart, Suarez & Eriksen were all developed at Ajax, Eriksen was there from the age of 18, Saurez 20, Van Der Vaart graduated through their youth system.

[mastermind84]

They may have been mentioned already but Van Der Vaart, Suarez & Eriksen were all developed at Ajax, Eriksen was there from the age of 18, Saurez 20, Van Der Vaart graduated through their youth system.

I asked for world class.

van der vaart and eriksen are not and never were world class players. Sneijder is the only one that academy produced since Seedorf.

Suarez came there at 20. Thats cool, but no one wants to give Arsenal credit for Fabregas who came at 14 or 15 and ended up world class. We are looking Bellerin follow that trajectory now. Ramsey had a world class season, and may have a £60 million bid for him this summer from Barcelona.

The point I am making is that power-n-glory's arguments on what connotes a youth player are all over the place and not focused. How can you give Ajax credit for Suarez (who was signed from Groningen in the Eredivisie at age 20) but then not give Arsenal credit for Fabregas, Ramsey, and a few other players. It makes no sense.

And the original argument from Power N Glory is that he wanted Arsenal to replicate something like Ajax 95, the current Barcelona, or United's class of 1992. I just said its effing hard to do using those clubs as an example because they havent been able to replicate it themselves.

[Niall_Quinn]

None of the last few pages was what I was talking about. I was saying Wenger is ruining all his good work with his stupid, fucked up tactics. He's not utilising his players and their strengths, he's trying to get them to do anything bar the things they excel at.

Take for example, Theo Walcott. Does it take a genius to figure out the one, and only one, way he can be effective on a football pitch? So why play him when the game plan is to play to exactly the reverse of his strengths?

Ox in central midfield. FFS, what's that all about?

[Power n Glory]

I asked for world class.

van der vaart and eriksen are not and never were world class players. Sneijder is the only one that academy produced since Seedorf.

Suarez came there at 20. Thats cool, but no one wants to give Arsenal credit for Fabregas who came at 14 or 15 and ended up world class. We are looking Bellerin follow that trajectory now. Ramsey had a world class season, and may have a £60 million bid for him this summer from Barcelona.

The point I am making is that power-n-glory's arguments on what connotes a youth player are all over the place and not focused. How can you give Ajax credit for Suarez (who was signed from Groningen in the Eredivisie at age 20) but then not give Arsenal credit for Fabregas, Ramsey, and a few other players. It makes no sense.

And the original argument from Power N Glory is that he wanted Arsenal to replicate something like Ajax 95, the current Barcelona, or United's class of 1992. I just said its effing hard to do using those clubs as an example because they havent been able to replicate it themselves.

You're the only one asking for world class. You're framing the whole argument around something that was never said.


Putting aside developing a great individual player, I also question why we never had a class that graduated from the ranks and went into the first team to form a strong unit. The vision was taken from Ajax and some of the players that grew up playing together in the academy and eventually made it to the first team. That team with the De Boar brothers, Kluivert, Davids, Seedorf, Van der Sar, etc. We've that youth graduation system at Barca and even United's treble team with Beckham, Scholes and the Neville brothers. How comes we end up with the Hoyte brothers instead? How comes the guys that came up under Bould are looking like they won't even make it into the first team

It's worth reading again and I'll elaborate. I'm not talking about individual brilliance, I'm talking about a group of young players that came up together that formed a solid unit. A group that embodied the ethos and philosophy of the Wenger playing style. The fact that I mention the Neville brothers should be a big enough clue. They're not world class. Same goes for Nicky Butt but they knew how Ferguson wanted them to play and approach games. I suspect it was the same for Ajax, they had that total football philosophy drilled into them and at Barca they had tika taka drilled in. I question what was going on at Arsenal for that not to happen. Why we never had a group of players that came through to play exactly how we liked? Or is it a case of the system and philosophy we're drilling into these players is flawed?

Putting aside success levels with Ajax for a minute, they still have a system where they produce players good enough for their first team and even get a crack at International level. There is a sense of progression or graduation should I say. Our players don't make it into the first team. Most don't even make it at Premier League standard. They end up in the Championship division. Turn your nose up at Van der Vart, Van der Wiel, De Jong, Eriksen all you want. They are still playing at a higher level than the majority of our young players. Include Heitinga, Pienaar in that bracket. They are also internationals players and they should be included if you're going to clap about Wilshere and Gibbs. We'll see what Wilshere is like when he gets back, but like Gibbs he may struggle to get into the first team and that shouldn't be the case. For years Wenger would often saying not wanting to 'kill' such and such player with a more established signing but he eventually ends up doing it because they're not good enough and get shipped out.

Also, to clarify, I'm not restricting this to just academy players because we haven't really produced many pure players like that. Theo, Cesc, Ramsey, Ox, Denilson, Bendy...we brought them in young but from other academies. Suarez and Ibra are the equivalent for Ajax although slightly older at 20. Again, I still don't know how our scouts missed signing those guys but wasted years on other players.

I've acknowledged Cesc, Ramsey, Coquelin and Walcott in other posts. Short version..Cesc has defensive flaws in his game we should ironed out of him when young. Ramsey and Walcott are the same. Coquelin was almost sold so I question what we're looking for when it comes to these players. Time will tell with Bellerin and it's not worth mentioning Vela because he hardly played for us. Played more games out on loan for other teams.


great, now what has chelsea done? or liverpool?


and mentioning Pogba and Pique muddles your bad argument even more because you dont acknowledge that we signed Fabregas, ffs.

Also, I mention Pogba and Pique to show how clubs like Man Utd weren't that dedicated to developing young players at that time. They were spending money so those players were missed. So it's senseless mentioning what our rivals, such as Liverpool, Chelsea and City do because they have a completely different model to us. They didn't dedicate 10 years to finding and producing quality young players to play in their first team. I like Cesc Fabregas, but again, you'll have to read my previous post about his flaws. Some posters wouldn't take him back and rate Ozil and Cazorla more than him.But that's another discussion. I still rate him and think he's one of the best we've produced but there are some flaws in his game and I see the same flaw and pattern in other players.

[mastermind84]

I didnt turn my nose up at them. I posted a graphic showing Ajax has produced a bunch of players. But even them being the gold standard, they have not produced great players as much as you may think. Anyway, I just contend with you dismissing what Arsenal has done. Ajax produce players that get a crack at their national team. I post Kieran Gibbs and its dismissed as "England gives everyone caps."

Arsenal didnt ignore Zlatan. He was at our training ground. There is a picture with him in an Arsenal shirt. Just stop mentioning that. We couldnt close the deal. There was no mention of a trial (Wenger and Zlatan both say this was made up) but he didnt end up here. It sucks, but that was 15 years ago.

You started the conversation off by saying we havent replicated three of the most successful academy/collection of youth players that have ever existed.

Ferguson always focused on getting youth players through as well. Thats always been a United trait. I think they had a 50-60 year stretch of playing at least one academy product that ended sometime during van Gaal's reign.

Pique has a lot of flaws too that are hidden in the Barcelona system. I am not convinced he becomes the defender he is now at United. Pogba was a miss.

I would take Santi and Mesut over Cesc because they fit this group more than Cesc would. But Ozil would have been amazing with Cesc in 2008.


Its really hard to do that. AS we see, English clubs are not doing well at it because English players are by and large not that good. In the English context, Arsenal are right behind United at that. I think the club can do better as well, but I wont complain about them not having their own version of Rinus Micheals' Ajax.

[Power n Glory]

What do you think the academy was set up for? Hearing Wenger praise his young players so often and talk them up in the press about their quality, what do you think the end game is? What do you think we're aiming for? Seeing how he's a fan of the Dutch total football system and Ajax, producing our own talent, a self sustaining model yet with our eyes on being one the best clubs in Europe, do you not think he's aiming to have one of the best academies in football? Are we out of line comparing it to the most successful when that's the obvious aim? I don't know why we've invested so heavily in it if it's not the ultimate goal. I never said it was easy to produce players either. Just why we've produced so little and why so many of our players have similar flaws in their game.

Also, it's impossible to produce great players all year round but we're hardly producing first team players period. It's why we've had a shake up with our youth management and there are still complaints coming out of the camp about what we're producing.

[mastermind84]

What do you think the academy was set up for? Hearing Wenger praise his young players so often and talk them up in the press about their quality, what do you think the end game is? What do you think we're aiming for? Seeing how he's a fan of the Dutch total football system and Ajax, producing our own talent, a self sustaining model yet with our eyes on being one the best clubs in Europe, do you not think he's aiming to have one of the best academies in football? Are we out of line comparing it to the most successful when that's the obvious aim? I don't know why we've invested so heavily in it if it's not the ultimate goal. I never said it was easy to produce players either. Just why we've produced so little and why so many of our players have similar flaws in their game.

Also, it's impossible to produce great players all year round but we're hardly producing first team players period. It's why we've had a shake up with our youth management and there are still complaints coming out of the camp about what we're producing.
Wenger blows smoke up the asses of all his players. I think we fans take him too serious.

There is nothing wrong with comparing the academy to the successful ones, but when you say "why haven't we done that," you are asking an impossible question.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger blows smoke up the asses of all his players. I think we fans take him too serious.

There is nothing wrong with comparing the academy to the successful ones, but when you say "why haven't we done that," you are asking an impossible question.

An impossible question? How? Why? You seemed to have the answer earlier when you said the players we signed weren't good enough. So if we were to assume that aren't good enough in the first place, it's worth looking at our scouting system. You'll find a few others discussing our youth if you Google.

One example. Not the greatest paper but considering the shake up we had with our youth development managers, bringing Jonker and Kat, it's a fair question and one Arsenal staff must be asking themselves.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3274564/Arsenal-academy-spotlight-divisions-emerge-staff-parents-complain-coaching-Hale-End-fails-deliver-generation-team-stars.html

Wenger was very frank with his words when we went out of the Carling Cup. We admitted the kids weren't ready and included too many senior players. He doesn't usually speak like that.

Wenger blows smoke up players asses sometimes but you can comfortably say that now because of hindsight. At the time when we had our kids make it to the Carling Cup final against Chelsea, nobody was questioning his judgement. We were coming off the Invincible season, he had his rep in tact because he developed Anelka, Henry, Vieria and sold a dream and was waxing lyrical about spotting Ronaldinho, Ronaldo....Pele or whoever else in their teens but restricted because of work permits or whatever. At the time we set up project youth, we all thought Wenger was a genius. It's not the same now when he talks about Sanogo being the new Anelka! We all see that for bullshit because the stocks dropped. But 10 years ago we might have believed him.

You yourself said you thought Denilson was good but lost his confidence. He did look like a good player. A totally different beast but I don't think it's a case of losing confidence. He either got too comfortable because he was a lazy bugger or had what ever he had coached out of him.

[mastermind84]

An impossible question? How? Why? You seemed to have the answer earlier when you said the players we signed weren't good enough. So if we were to assume that aren't good enough in the first place, it's worth looking at our scouting system. You'll find a few others discussing our youth if you Google.

One example. Not the greatest paper but considering the shake up we had with our youth development managers, bringing Jonker and Kat, it's a fair question and one Arsenal staff must be asking themselves.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3274564/Arsenal-academy-spotlight-divisions-emerge-staff-parents-complain-coaching-Hale-End-fails-deliver-generation-team-stars.html

Wenger was very frank with his words when we went out of the Carling Cup. We admitted the kids weren't ready and included too many senior players. He doesn't usually speak like that.

Wenger blows smoke up players asses sometimes but you can comfortably say that now because of hindsight. At the time when we had our kids make it to the Carling Cup final against Chelsea, nobody was questioning his judgement. We were coming off the Invincible season, he had his rep in tact because he developed Anelka, Henry, Vieria and sold a dream and was waxing lyrical about spotting Ronaldinho, Ronaldo....Pele or whoever else in their teens but restricted because of work permits or whatever. At the time we set up project youth, we all thought Wenger was a genius. It's not the same now when he talks about Sanogo being the new Anelka! We all see that for bullshit because the stocks dropped. But 10 years ago we might have believed him.

You yourself said you thought Denilson was good but lost his confidence. He did look like a good player. A totally different beast but I don't think it's a case of losing confidence. He either got too comfortable because he was a lazy bugger or had what ever he had coached out of him.
look back at the Carling Cup run though.

Baptista and Aliadiere were our starting forwards.

Song was in midfield with Cesc and Diaby. (3 guys who became first teamers and international players)

The only really young player who didnt make it was that Armand Traore.

Denilson injured his back, iirc and was out for a while. DUring that time, Wilshere and Ramsey ascended. I think he lost his way after that.


I do agree that Wenger is overrated in his youth development. All Im saying is that we shouldnt ask why hasnt he replicated Ajax '95. But I agree, adn have always agreed that Wenger is overrated as a youth development genius. I questioned it when I didnt see Bendtner and Vela get better for us.

[Power n Glory]

Don't forget Senderos, Djourou, Hoyte and Mark Randall.


The only really young player who didnt make it was that Armand Traore.

What do you mean? Who did they make it for? Not us. Walcott's the only surviving member from that young team. I rated Song but we sold him too quickly.

[mastermind84]

Don't forget Senderos, Djourou, Hoyte and Mark Randall.



What do you mean? Who did they make it for? Not us. Walcott's the only surviving member from that young team. I rated Song but we sold him too quickly.

Mark Randall was never that good.

Neither was Hoyte. Both Hoytes. Justin only started because Wenger didnt replace Lauren. I think Hoyte was gone in 2008, and got the club 3 million and is now going backwards in the Football League. Same with his little brother.


And yeah, in that final it was Senderos and Kolo.


What I meant by Traore was that he was the only young player in that side that didnt make it.


Song was an idiot player. You guys think Ramsey plays too reckless, look at Song and remember he was our holding midfielder.

The special player in that group was Diaby and Cesc, imo. Cesc was sold for 30 million and Diaby's career was already wrecked in 2007.


Arsenal can definitely do better in youth development, but a big problem is the horribleness of English young talent. I will say that this current group looks decent. Iwobi and Maintland-Niles look like players. I think where Wenger messed up with the group 9-10 years ago was that he relied on them to start. The guys now are out on loan and learning unless they are really close.

I still dont expect anyone to make it though, except for Jeff.