Who Will Win The League - 2

[Letters]

Why? Because unless you understand the history of the club you won't appreciate that the last 20 years or so have been the exception, not the rule. If you do thank Wenger for raising your expectations then you've got a funny way of showing it.

The stadium move would have had more impact had it not come in the era of billionaires muscling in. Leicester haven't popped anything, the billionaires HAVE had a massive effect over the the last decade or so. I don't need to argue that, just look at where the trophies ended up. This is a bizarre season, Leicester are a black swan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory). It would be nice to think it's the start of something and football will start to become less predictable again but I suspect the usual suspects will spend big this summer and the status quo will be restored.

Yes, Wenger needs to move on, I think he's taken us as far as he can. But "Thanks for the memories, Arsene, but it's time to say goodbye" is an appropriate tone, IMO, not some of the vitriol I see on here.

[Niall_Quinn]

Why? Because unless you understand the history of the club you won't appreciate that the last 20 years or so have been the exception, not the rule. If you do thank Wenger for raising your expectations then you've got a funny way of showing it.

The stadium move would have had more impact had it not come in the era of billionaires muscling in. Leicester haven't popped anything, the billionaires HAVE had a massive effect over the the last decade or so. I don't need to argue that, just look at where the trophies ended up. This is a bizarre season, Leicester are a black swan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory). It would be nice to think it's the start of something and football will start to become less predictable again but I suspect the usual suspects will spend big this summer and the status quo will be restored.

Yes, Wenger needs to move on, I think he's taken us as far as he can. But "Thanks for the memories, Arsene, but it's time to say goodbye" is an appropriate tone, IMO, not some of the vitriol I see on here.

So we could have won more titles and dominated the league financially, if it were not for those pesky clubs who used their corporate muscle to win titles and dominate the league financially? Sounds a bit unfair on us.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It allows us to conclude that the whole stadium move, more money, more corporate deals, more corporate everything plan was, is and will be a whole pile of shit. Planned out by people who did not have the best interests of this FOOTBALL club at heart and executed by people who made money rather than FOOTBALL the priority.

What we tried to do was get a little bit pregnant, along with the chav and gypo types. We were quite happy with the notion of moving to a big stadium and pulling in more cash than any other team in Europe and then using that cash to elevate ourselves to the top of the game permanently. That WAS the plan.

Except we did it in our usual half-arsed manner. When the chavs arrived we should have shit or got off the pot. We saw the money they were pouring into the game, followed by the gypos. But we chose investors who wanted to take rather than give - the opposite of the gypos. We invited in snakes who paid of the existing vipers at a huge markup. Not a penny went into the club, it all went to the wallets of private individuals. And then the snakes lay there and watched gypos turn up in the solid gold caravans, and still they kept their wallets hidden as our best players were sold and the team went to shit.

Wenger went along with all of this - boasting how financially stable we were, lambasting the newcomers for doing exactly what we intended to do, but on the cheap as always. We heard all the bullshit about it being impossible to compete given the resources the Russians and Arabs were INVESTING. We don't have investors, we have leeches. That's the real difference that no amount of excuses can cover.

If we didn't want to invest then we should have set about constructing a team that could compete, despite the money. Just as Leicester and the spuds have done this season. For years we heard that cups are one-off but the league table doesn't lie. Well 30 games in and that same rule applies, the league table doesn't lie and Leicester are deservedly clear at the top. Here's the proof that even a relegation candidate can mount a challenge if people within that club have a focus on football and the competency to build a team.

With our "investors" we lacked the will to focus on the football because we were too busy chasing the money. That's why we are 4th place trophy and Last 16 Cup legends. Because we made the money everything and told the football to fuck off and die.

With our manager we've seen a bloke incapable of building a team that can compete, despite the fact he's had 10 times the resources of a Leicester at his disposal. He simply hasn't had the competency required to get that job done.

The excuses are blown away and the reality has been exposed.

This club has been hijacked by corporate shitheaps and our magic hat wearing manager has gone along with it at every step.

When the investors needed to step up they instead sold our players. When the manager needed to step up he failed and blamed the fans.

What they all need to do is take their greed and their failure and fuck off out of our club. Then we need to get rid of the arrogance and sense of entitlement and the loser mentality and all the other bullshit of the last decade, we need to recover our humility and endeavour and focus on the football and our ambition to be the very best and we need to start a new project. A FOOTBALL project.

The sooner that's done, the sooner we get our club back.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

There's at least 50%chance of us overhauling Spurs but the league is gone. Congratulations Leicester. Vardy and Mahrez are genuinely top players but Leicester's back line won't have another season like this.

[selassie]

So we could have won more titles and dominated the league financially, if it were not for those pesky clubs who used their corporate muscle to win titles and dominate the league financially? Sounds a bit unfair on us.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It allows us to conclude that the whole stadium move, more money, more corporate deals, more corporate everything plan was, is and will be a whole pile of shit. Planned out by people who did not have the best interests of this FOOTBALL club at heart and executed by people who made money rather than FOOTBALL the priority.

What we tried to do was get a little bit pregnant, along with the chav and gypo types. We were quite happy with the notion of moving to a big stadium and pulling in more cash than any other team in Europe and then using that cash to elevate ourselves to the top of the game permanently. That WAS the plan.

Except we did it in our usual half-arsed manner. When the chavs arrived we should have shit or got off the pot. We saw the money they were pouring into the game, followed by the gypos. But we chose investors who wanted to take rather than give - the opposite of the gypos. We invited in snakes who paid of the existing vipers at a huge markup. Not a penny went into the club, it all went to the wallets of private individuals. And then the snakes lay there and watched gypos turn up in the solid gold caravans, and still they kept their wallets hidden as our best players were sold and the team went to shit.

Wenger went along with all of this - boasting how financially stable we were, lambasting the newcomers for doing exactly what we intended to do, but on the cheap as always. We heard all the bullshit about it being impossible to compete given the resources the Russians and Arabs were INVESTING. We don't have investors, we have leeches. That's the real difference that no amount of excuses can cover.

If we didn't want to invest then we should have set about constructing a team that could compete, despite the money. Just as Leicester and the spuds have done this season. For years we heard that cups are one-off but the league table doesn't lie. Well 30 games in and that same rule applies, the league table doesn't lie and Leicester are deservedly clear at the top. Here's the proof that even a relegation candidate can mount a challenge if people within that club have a focus on football and the competency to build a team.

With our "investors" we lacked the will to focus on the football because we were too busy chasing the money. That's why we are 4th place trophy and Last 16 Cup legends. Because we made the money everything and told the football to fuck off and die.

With our manager we've seen a bloke incapable of building a team that can compete, despite the fact he's had 10 times the resources of a Leicester at his disposal. He simply hasn't had the competency required to get that job done.

The excuses are blown away and the reality has been exposed.

This club has been hijacked by corporate shitheaps and our magic hat wearing manager has gone along with it at every step.

When the investors needed to step up they instead sold our players. When the manager needed to step up he failed and blamed the fans.

What they all need to do is take their greed and their failure and fuck off out of our club. Then we need to get rid of the arrogance and sense of entitlement and the loser mentality and all the other bullshit of the last decade, we need to recover our humility and endeavour and focus on the football and our ambition to be the very best and we need to start a new project. A FOOTBALL project.

The sooner that's done, the sooner we get our club back.

:gp:

[Chippy]

Head over heart.

But I voted for us.
Anyone else cheering for Leicester today? Or is it just me? :)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No Spurs have dropped points so I want Southampton to win, puts it all back in the balance

[Chippy]

No Spurs have dropped points so I want Southampton to win, puts it all back in the balance
I know what you mean , but we will put ourselves back in the mix and fuck it up. Can't stand the stress! :)

[Kano]

Anyone else cheering for Leicester today? Or is it just me? :)

Fuck Leicester tbh.

[Gooner23]

Leicester have Utd away, Everton and Chelsea away for there last 3 games, plus home games against saints and hammers. That's not an easy run in. I don't think we'll win it but I reckon it will be close at the end. Another glorious failure!

[Gooner23]

Should add that if Spurs are still viewed as contenders then we should be as well.

[AFC Leveller]

Spurs will drop points again, probably next week against man u or away to Chelsea but Leciester for me have too big a margin over us and i dont see them dropping many points.

Leicester
Arsenal
Spurs
City

[Niall_Quinn]

Spurs will drop points again, probably next week against man u or away to Chelsea but Leciester for me have too big a margin over us and i dont see them dropping many points.

Leicester
Arsenal
Spurs
City

For me:

Leicester
Arsenal
Gypos
Spuds

I reckon the spuds will implode. It's what they do.

[Letters]

Anyone else cheering for Leicester today? Or is it just me? :)

I was with you. If I thought we had any chance of the league I'd be hoping Leicester drop points, but we won't and we can't have Spurs winning it so all power to Leicester's elbow.

[Letters]

For me:

Leicester
Arsenal
Gypos
Spuds

I reckon the spuds will implode. It's what they do.

True as a rule but they're looking like the real deal this year. Thank God for Leicester or we may be faced with the unthinkable.

I think we'll go on a 'too little, too late' run and overtake Spurs but don't think City will overtake them - they're not arsed either.

[fakeyank]

I want Spurs to finish 2nd instead of us. We need the crowd to be pissed at the board and the manager. We finish ahead of them and Wenger will throw some crap statistic to show that we have progressed.

[selassie]

No Spurs have dropped points so I want Southampton to win, puts it all back in the balance

We've blown it Herb, it was over weeks ago, we're not catching Leicester now. The best we can hope for is 2nd place and I'm not even certain of that, the only difficult games the Spuds have left are United next week at home and Chelsea away and they are questionable difficult games.

We've got West Ham and City away. Think the league positions will finish as is.

[Letters]

I want Spurs to finish 2nd instead of us. We need the crowd to be pissed at the board and the manager. We finish ahead of them and Wenger will throw some crap statistic to show that we have progressed.

Looking like Wenger will be here next season whatever and I think finishing below Leicester is pretty damning either way. Even if everyone else finishes below them too. Utterly ridiculous for an Arsenal fan to be wanting Spurs to finish above us.

[Marc Overmars]

I think we can and will overtake Spurs because I don't think they win enough of the tricky games, yesterday at Anfield being the latest example.

5 of our final 6 games are against teams in the bottom half so we should do enough to finish 2nd. Next weekend is a biggie for us though at West Ham.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I want Spurs to finish 2nd instead of us. We need the crowd to be pissed at the board and the manager. We finish ahead of them and Wenger will throw some crap statistic to show that we have progressed.

No thanks, give me some sad crumb of comfort for the summer at least.

[Kano]

I think we can and will overtake Spurs because I don't think they win enough of the tricky games, yesterday at Anfield being the latest example.

5 of our final 6 games are against teams in the bottom half so we should do enough to finish 2nd. Next weekend is a biggie for us though at West Ham.
Think we'll win that.

As long as we don't give away any bloody free kicks around the box.

[fakeyank]

Looking like Wenger will be here next season whatever and I think finishing below Leicester is pretty damning either way. Even if everyone else finishes below them too. Utterly ridiculous for an Arsenal fan to be wanting Spurs to finish above us.

I am looking at the bigger picture, my friend.

I know Wenger will be here next season as well.. what finishing behind Spurs may do is at least put some pressure on the board to not offer him a new 10 year deal after next season.

[Letters]

I am looking at the bigger picture, my friend.

I know Wenger will be here next season as well.. what finishing behind Spurs may do is at least put some pressure on the board to not offer him a new 10 year deal after next season.
:lol:

I'm with Maccy. Give me the crumbs. It's all we've got.

[Alpha]

We are breathing Spurs'shit now . So it want be long before we overtake them as they still have to play Man U and Chelsea who will not give them an easy ride . Leicester still have to face Man U and Chelsea away and host Westham , Swansea and Everton . It is not over yet .

[LDG]

We are breathing Spurs'shit now . So it want be long before we overtake them as they still have to play Man U and Chelsea who will not give them an easy ride . Leicester still have to face Man U and Chelsea away and host Westham , Swansea and Everton . It is not over yet .

Yes. It is.

[Marc Overmars]

It was over the moment we stunk the place out at Old Trafford. Not in terms of the points deficit but attitude and mentality. No recovering from that.

[Alpha]

Yes. It is.

Everyone does not give up at the same time . For me it will be over when it will be mathematically impossible.

[Alpha]

It was over the moment we stunk the place out at Old Trafford. Not in terms of the points deficit but attitude and mentality. No recovering from that.

We can still win it even though the chances are very slim.

[Niall_Quinn]

We can still win it even though the chances are very slim.

Slim is a massive, monumental, gargantuan exaggeration. We simply are not equipped to handle a title challenge. We've seen this over and over again. We have precisely zero chance of ever winning the league again unless the whole focus of this club shifts in every way conceivable.

[Özim]

We can still win it even though the chances are very slim.

Leicester would have to lose 3 games and we'd have to win all of ours, they only have 6 games left, we've got West Ham away and Man City away on top of that.

We won't be winning the title, not a chance, we blew it a while back and the recent few decent results are typical of us when the pressure is off.

This team has no bottle.

[Özim]

Slim is a massive, monumental, gargantuan exaggeration. We simply are not equipped to handle a title challenge. We've seen this over and over again. We have precisely zero chance of ever winning the league again unless the whole focus of this club shifts in every way conceivable.

Totally agree, to be honest you really have to have your head bury in the sand not to understand this by now.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I want Spurs to finish 2nd instead of us. We need the crowd to be pissed at the board and the manager. We finish ahead of them and Wenger will throw some crap statistic to show that we have progressed.

Fuck that until the end of time and beyond.

[Letters]

We won't be winning the title, not a chance, we blew it a while back and the recent few decent results are typical of us when the pressure is off.

This team has no bottle.
Yep. There was no pressure on the City or Leicester games at home. Only in the ones we lost

[Özim]

Yep. There was no pressure on the City or Leicester games at home. Only in the ones we lost

Spot on, at last you see the light, the pressure when you're in a position to win the title is quite different and as we know we always bottle it when in that scenario.

[Letters]

We were in a position to win the title all along, till recently.

[Özim]

We were in a position to win the title all along, till recently.

There's a difference when you get to the business end of the season, that's when it becomes real and that's when we always collapse just as we have this year. Just as we look out of it we start to win again, can't you spot the pattern or are you just refusing to acknowledge the obvious?

[Letters]

So we're 5 points off the top, playing the side on top. No pressure there!

[Özim]

So we're 5 points off the top, playing the side on top. No pressure there!

I still think there was a long way to go at that stage and because we were 5 points behind we felt less pressure and we got a bit lucky to win that anyway in the end with a very late goal it wasn't like we won that comfortably.

What was interesting was how we collapsed after that though when we were in the mix again, that tells you all you need to know, we can't handle the pressure when we're one of the favourites to win the title.

As soon as we're out of it we start winning again though, I don't know how much more evidence you need that we can't handle pressure tbh.

[Letters]

There was a long way to go, but you cited pressure as a problem in games we lost before that :shrug: Now of course you're moving the goalposts, as always.

I think it's a factor, but I think it's overly simplistic to say that is the only problem. We've won plenty of pressure games this season and over the last couple. You don't win FA Cups without being able to cope with pressure. (I think this is where you cite 'easy draws' and I remind you that our draws were not unusually easy, compared with other FA Cup winners so I'll do that here to save us both some time).

[Özim]

There was a long way to go, but you cited pressure as a problem in games we lost before that :shrug: Now of course you're moving the goalposts, as always.

I think it's a factor, but I think it's overly simplistic to say that is the only problem. We've won plenty of pressure games this season and over the last couple. You don't win FA Cups without being able to cope with pressure. (I think this is where you cite 'easy draws' and I remind you that our draws were not unusually easy, compared with other FA Cup winners so I'll do that here to save us both some time).

I'm not moving the goalposts at all, I don't really know how much more evidence you need that we're bottlers, years of the same should be enough clearly not.

When you're getting closer to winning something major the pressure is higher, hence the reason it's harder to win games for the top teams now.

Regarding the FA Cup the pressure just wasn't the same as that for winning the CL or League, there is pressure but it's somewhat different, in addition our draws were good, home games most of the time and a final against weaker opposition which we almost screwed up and just scraped to a win in in extra time.

I don't think you can compare the pressure of the FA Cup and that of the League or CL.

[Power n Glory]

There was a long way to go, but you cited pressure as a problem in games we lost before that :shrug: Now of course you're moving the goalposts, as always.

I think it's a factor, but I think it's overly simplistic to say that is the only problem. We've won plenty of pressure games this season and over the last couple. You don't win FA Cups without being able to cope with pressure. (I think this is where you cite 'easy draws' and I remind you that our draws were not unusually easy, compared with other FA Cup winners so I'll do that here to save us both some time).

Seriously, what do you think the cause is for us falling away like this? Your opinion on what's gone wrong for us this season.

[Letters]

I'm not moving the goalposts at all.

After Chelsea, 24/01


No surprises here, Chelsea beat us again, a Chelsea side struggling for results this season still come here and beat us at home, this is really embarrassing and proves we lack the bottle and the collapse we always see is happening again.

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3491&page=11

And then your comment above about the Leicester game, 14/02


I still think there was a long way to go at that stage

:shrug:

[Letters]

Seriously, what do you think the cause is for us falling away like this? Your opinion on what's gone wrong for us this season.

Pressure is a factor, obviously. But it's simplistic to think it's the only one. IMO another factor is the lack of a strong captain. Any side will go through dips in form, we need someone out there getting them going again. We seem completely unable to haul ourselves out of a malaise and Wenger has never been a good motivator.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I still think there was a long way to go at that stage and because we were 5 points behind we felt less pressure and we got a bit lucky to win that anyway in the end with a very late goal it wasn't like we won that comfortably.

What was interesting was how we collapsed after that though when we were in the mix again, that tells you all you need to know, we can't handle the pressure when we're one of the favourites to win the title.

As soon as we're out of it we start winning again though, I don't know how much more evidence you need that we can't handle pressure tbh.

The problem is you take such an absolutist view that you may yourself seem ridiculous when presented with counter examples

Do we ultimately show mental weakness under pressure and that contributes to us not winning a league title in 12 years? Yes of course but as Letters point out there are times we do perform under pressure but we don't do it consistently because we are a confidence team where one defeat tends to have knock on effect that it doesn't have for other teams.

Beating Leicester in February especially getting a goal in final knockings showed the ability to get a result under pressure however this was followed up by a collapse which shows our utter inconsistency, and yes I'd agree we only perform consistently when under less pressure.

Leicester will win the title because apart from a slight wobble post Xmas they have shown fantastic consistency.

Does that make Claudio Ranieri superior to Wenger?? Not really just wise enough to inherit Nigel Pearsons blueprint and not tinker with it too much.

[Özim]

After Chelsea, 24/01



http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3491&page=11

And then your comment above about the Leicester game, 14/02



:shrug:

Do you store these ready to use? :lol: Our record against Chelsea is dreadful and regardless of where they are or how bad they are we seem to lose which suggests a mental issue, this game just shows the same lack of bottle we have when it comes to winning things, this was just one game in many that proves this, another mental obstacle we can't overcome.

Regarding the Leicester yes there was a long way to go and like I said the victory was still rather fortunate in the end with a last gasp goal.

[Özim]

The problem is you take such an absolutist view that you may yourself seem ridiculous when presented with counter examples

Do we ultimately show mental weakness under pressure and that contributes to us not winning a league title in 12 years? Yes of course but as Letters point out there are times we do perform under pressure but we don't do it consistently because we are a confidence team where one defeat tends to have knock on effect that it doesn't have for other teams.

Beating Leicester in February especially getting a goal in final knockings showed the ability to get a result under pressure however this was followed up by a collapse which shows our utter inconsistency, and yes I'd agree we only perform consistently when under less pressure.

Leicester will win the title because apart from a slight wobble post Xmas they have shown fantastic consistency.

Does that make Claudio Ranieri superior to Wenger?? Not really just wise enough to inherit Nigel Pearsons blueprint and not tinker with it too much.

If we could handle the pressure we wouldn't collapse everytime we're well placed in the league at the end of the season and pick up again once we're all but out of it. If you look at the last 10 years we see two scenarioes a) we perform well when we've started so badly in the league that we're out of the running or b) we perform well at the start of the season and collapse at the end of the season when we're well placed to win it.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to spot the issue here, we can't deal with the pressure of winning the big prizes, 10 years of the same and it's clear this is the issue.

I think the problem for us is the pressure when we're close to winnign something major which is very different to pressure of winning a one off game which more often than not has no real impact on the season.

Is Ranieria a better manager, hard to tell, what he is though is clearly more tactically astute and a better motivator and can set out his team to grind out results.

Wenger has basically always just relied on his players to deliver with relatively minimal input, problem is he doesn't sign the right players to take this approach.

[Letters]

Do you store these ready to use?
No, it' s a messageboard. It stores them itself.
I just went to have a look, guessing that having said it was a 'long way to go' after Leicester you'd probably have said we 'bottled it' in an earlier defeat.
I wasn't disappointed.

[Letters]

If we could handle the pressure we wouldn't collapse everytime we're well placed in the league at the end of the season and pick up again once we're all but out of it.
What about the pressure of an FA Cup Qtr Final at Old Trafford.
Or the pressure of a cup semi-final, or final actually - especially when you go 2-0 down in one having not won a trophy in 10 years.
Or the pressure of playing City, knowing a win will put you top at Christmas.
Or the pressure of playing the team 5 points above you at the top, knowing a defeat will put you out of the title race.

I'm not saying pressure isn't a factor, but it's not the only one. There are plenty of examples where we've won pressure games both this season and in the last couple. It's too simplistic to say it's just because we can't handle pressure.

[Özim]

No, it' s a messageboard. It stores them itself.
I just went to have a look, guessing that having said it was a 'long way to go' after Leicester you'd probably have said we 'bottled it' in an earlier defeat.
I wasn't disappointed.

Have we not bottled it? If the answer is yes than that makes me correct doesn't it?

The Leicester game wasn't a great performance, it was a good win with a very late winner I think we were a little fortunate to win that game in the end but we did, had pressure not been an issue we'd have then kicked on and won a few more, instead we once again collapsed when well placed.

Often for teams there are big games you win which make you believe you can go on to win it, it doesn't seem to happen with us, we win what is deemed to be a big game and then seem get the jitters, fail to turn up and drop points left, right and center, it's no coincidence that since we've as good as been out of it we'v started winning again.

For me it all started going wrong against Liverpool in reality, we should have won that and blew it, the Chelsea game should have been a win for us too against a side who were struggling for a win and were playing away, but once again we blew it. Yes we beat Leicester but we didn't really perform that well on that day either, then we went on to lose more and more points.

[Power n Glory]

Pressure is a factor, obviously. But it's simplistic to think it's the only one. IMO another factor is the lack of a strong captain. Any side will go through dips in form, we need someone out there getting them going again. We seem completely unable to haul ourselves out of a malaise and Wenger has never been a good motivator.

Then what are you really arguing over? :lol: It’s an obvious psychological issue and has a lot to do with pressure and leadership. I don’t think anyone really needs to write a long post about what’s going on here. It’s all been said before.

[Özim]

What about the pressure of an FA Cup Qtr Final at Old Trafford.
Or the pressure of a cup semi-final, or final actually - especially when you go 2-0 down in one having not won a trophy in 10 years.
Or the pressure of playing City, knowing a win will put you top at Christmas.
Or the pressure of playing the team 5 points above you at the top, knowing a defeat will put you out of the title race.

I'm not saying pressure isn't a factor, but it's not the only one. There are plenty of examples where we've won pressure games both this season and in the last couple. It's too simplistic to say it's just because we can't handle pressure.

I think to some extent having won the FA cup the season before the pressure was less in the FA Cup the 2nd time round and we were playing and Man U team who weren't much kop to be honest and in the end were down to 10.

Yes I guess being 2-0 in the semi was a pressure situation but you could argue that at 2-0 we thought we'd almost lost and could throw caution to the wind as the game was almost gone and it worked, I still maintain the pressure for the cup isn't the same, Wenger has not put much emphasis on this trophy for years.

The pressure at Christmas just isn't the same, there's half a season to go, you're nowhere near winning anything.

Again with Leicester we weren't great and won it with the last kick which has an element of fortune in it, it's not like we started really well scored a few and stamped our authority on the game, the sending off certainly helped our cause as well, had it be 11 vs 11 all match I doubt we'd have won.

[selassie]

My opinion is of that we don't have the mentality to fight for a title throughout the duration of the season. The players take a large part of the blame in this but so does Wenger, he's the one who has been in charge of numerous Arsenal sides over the past 12 years that he built, all of these teams have collapsed in title challenges irrespective of the opposition.

Of course we do win "pressure" games, we win more games than we lose but the facts are that Wenger led Arsenal teams collapse in title races, it's not a conspiracy, the facts are there for us all to see.

We can dissect all the key matches season by season and honestly I don't really know what the root cause is, but there is something inherently wrong with the teams Wenger builds and the mentality within these teams because irrespective of personnel, Wenger led teams collapse in title races.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think Leicester are proving that if anything the influence that a manager has on a team is becoming more and more negligible, I think what you said about Wenger relying on his players to perform with relatively minimal input is true but I think it's very true of Ranieri.
And ironic that a man who has if anything has been poor at many of the clubs he has managed (Valencia, Roma, Monaco, Greece etc) will probably end up surpassing the historical achievements of many club managers in the history of the English game by performing the miraculous feat of winning the title with a club like Leicester City.
I don't think Leicester are multi faceted tactically but the players work harder than any other team in the league and it's more of an indicator of the players taking responsibility for their own performance.
In that respect has Wenger chosen the wrong players....obviously he has because although the players are technically talented they do not have the same industry as their opposite numbers at other clubs.

But with the exception of a few players like Okazaki this is Nigel Pearsons team not Ranieris, and whilst I'm not in anyway impugning Ranieri I think his contribution has been to sensibly take a back step and let the team perform without too much input from him.

[Power n Glory]

The problem is you take such an absolutist view that you may yourself seem ridiculous when presented with counter examples

Do we ultimately show mental weakness under pressure and that contributes to us not winning a league title in 12 years? Yes of course but as Letters point out there are times we do perform under pressure but we don't do it consistently because we are a confidence team where one defeat tends to have knock on effect that it doesn't have for other teams.

Beating Leicester in February especially getting a goal in final knockings showed the ability to get a result under pressure however this was followed up by a collapse which shows our utter inconsistency, and yes I'd agree we only perform consistently when under less pressure.

Leicester will win the title because apart from a slight wobble post Xmas they have shown fantastic consistency.

Does that make Claudio Ranieri superior to Wenger?? Not really just wise enough to inherit Nigel Pearsons blueprint and not tinker with it too much.

So is Nigel Pearson superior to Wenger? :unsure:

Consistency and pressure go hand in hand when your in the title race. It's all to do with our mentality as a team and Sanchez alluded to this issue when he was being critical of our performances.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The point I'm making is that people talk about leadership in teams as if one player is responsible, but I'd argue that a captains role is as negligible as a managers

Well Leicesters form this season is a continuation of what Pearson acheived with that run of form that got them free from relegation by a confortable margin.

Leicester have proved that a team is more than the sum of its parts and it's that collective responsibility to chase down, to talk to eachother to run and run is arguably been as much as an asset to them as the respective form of Vardy and Mahrez

Wenger has opted for a team that relys on the technical ability of individuals and when that doesn't work there is little else left.

Who is a better manager is an ephemeral question, of course this season Ranieri has outperformed Wenger just as he has many other coaches.

[selassie]

I think Leicester are proving that if anything the influence that a manager has on a team is becoming more and more negligible, I think what you said about Wenger relying on his players to perform with relatively minimal input is true but I think it's very true of Ranieri.
And ironic that a man who has if anything has been poor at many of the clubs he has managed (Valencia, Roma, Monaco, Greece etc) will probably end up surpassing the historical achievements of many club managers in the history of the English game by performing the miraculous feat of winning the title with a club like Leicester City.
I don't think Leicester are multi faceted tactically but the players work harder than any other team in the league and it's more of an indicator of the players taking responsibility for their own performance.
In that respect has Wenger chosen the wrong players....obviously he has because although the players are technically talented they do not have the same industry as their opposite numbers at other clubs.

But with the exception of a few players like Okazaki this is Nigel Pearsons team not Ranieris, and whilst I'm not in anyway impugning Ranieri I think his contribution has been to sensibly take a back step and let the team perform without too much input from him.

Nah it's not really Pearson's team, Ranieri has brought in Fuchs & Kante & restored Drinkwater and Vardy to the starting line up, that's a third of the team. Of course Pearson set the blueprint and Leicester finished last season very strongly to stay up, but it's disrespectful to discredit Ranieri and say that he hasn't had the influence and it's not his team. Sure he listened to them at the start of the season and to an extent let them do the organising but he's very much a part of their success, without Kante, Drinkwater and Vardy they would be halfway down the table...if that.

I think Ranieri is given a hard time, he pretty much built that Chelsea side that was successful under Mourinho, the core was already there and they were Ranieiri signings. He did the same at Juve too and did relatively well at Monaco considering he was up against PSG. He's had a mixed career but he's a decent enough coach and has won trophies before, admittedly he's never won a top division title up until now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm not impugning Ranieri at all, I think he's done a great job but the argumemt I'm making is that he's taken a laisse faire approach in the same way Wenger has and allowed his team to perform as a unit without tactical tweaking.

I think he's had a positive influence in the same way someone so irrascible and arguably a bit disturbed like Nigel Pearson couldn't have.

Ranieri has given them the freedom to perform as a unit, Wenger does the same but largely what we have superior to Leicester in individual ability is lacking in a team mentality, which is Wengers fault as he hasn't bought the kind of players to function as a unit.

[alexander]

I wonder with a few more players coming through the youth setup, like Hector and Iwobi, and if he makes it back, Wilshere, will give the team more passion and drive. This isnt a bashing of foreign players, but players that grow up through the club might have more feel for it. It takes a mix, but a few more with a deep passion might help us. Im still one that thinks a leader on the pitch is important, I think certain players can drive a team on. Im not sure any of our current crop are captain material. Adams was, Viera was. I also think a captain does need to be vocal, and a players others can look too and be shouted at by! This needs a certain type of player, one all the others respect.

[Marc Overmars]

I think it's fair to say Leicester have merely carried on from the blueprint set last season, but it's the nerves of steel where Ranieri has earned his money. You'd expect a squad largely made up of journeymen and average players to get a nosebleed but they've relished the challenge. Compare that to Wenger's teams who just freeze up whenever winning the title becomes a realistic possibility.

[GP]

Burden of expectation, I suppose.

Even a finish in the top 4 would have been a massive success for Leicester. It's just been a perfect storm for them. No European distraction, settled squad, bit of magic in Mahrez.

[Özim]

I found it interesting that Wenger said after one of our recent wins we've proved our mental strength or something along those lines, ignoring the collapse that took place before it.

There's really no hope for him, rather than accepting we've just not been good enough and will need to look at things in the summer he's still maintaining that people were wrong and we do have mental strength and can deal with the pressure of winning a title, you just can't ever move forward if you don't recognise the problems/weaknesses which is why every season with him in charge will end in the same way.

[Power n Glory]

I found it interesting that Wenger said after one of our recent wins we've proved our mental strength or something along those lines, ignoring the collapse that took place before it.

There's really no hope for him, rather than accepting we've just not been good enough and will need to look at things in the summer he's still maintaining that people were wrong and we do have mental strength and can deal with the pressure of winning a title, you just can't ever move forward if you don't recognise the problems/weaknesses which is why every season with him in charge will end in the same way.

I saw that too. He's trying to convince everyone that we're mentally strong but it contradicts the performances and what the players themselves say. He's had to check both Ozil and Sanchez when they've spoken out about our failings. There is no point in telling everyone they need to 'believe' and hope for the best. There has to be some action behind that and the players need to feel confident in their manager and each other. He's all theory and no practice.

[alexander]

Why dont we have mental strength though? these are a team of adults, people that have played and won things elsewhere, Im sure they should have the belief they can do it in them.

[Letters]

I think to some extent having won the FA cup the season before the pressure was less in the FA Cup the 2nd time round and we were playing and Man U team who weren't much kop to be honest and in the end were down to 10.
Yeah, you keep saying that. And I keep on pointing out that Utd only lost 2 other home games all season last year - Chelsea drew there, City lost. They finished in the top 4, they weren't that bad.


The pressure at Christmas just isn't the same, there's half a season to go, you're nowhere near winning anything.
So why move the goalposts and declare us bottlers against Chelsea when there was still a very long way to go. :shrug:

You say the pressure isn't the same in the Cup. I'd agree it's not the same but it's a different kind of pressure as it's all our nothing on the day. In the league until around Easter you can generally recover from bad results so long as you're not too far behind. And you called us bottlers again when we lost to Watford in the FA Cup.

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3546&page=10

So while I agree pressure is a factor, it's not the only one. And the trouble with your argument is you defined pressure differently, always retrospectively, depending on results to fit your thesis.

[Power n Glory]

Why dont we have mental strength though? these are a team of adults, people that have played and won things elsewhere, Im sure they should have the belief they can do it in them.

It's the manager. Ozil, Sanchez and Merts have been vocal about our shortcomings and the mentality we lack. They've won major trophies in recent years so know what it takes and when a team has the right mentality. They know something is off with our team but our manager is always in denial. Would be interesting to hear what Cech has to say.

[alexander]

It's the manager. Ozil, Sanchez and Merts have been vocal about our shortcomings and the mentality we lack. They've won major trophies in recent years so know what it takes and when a team has the right mentality. They know something is off with our team but our manager is always in denial. Would be interesting to hear what Cech has to say.

He cant be at fault for everything. They (the players) must take some responsibility. On the face of it he is continually saying they have the mental strength, he obviously thinks they do.

[Power n Glory]

He cant be at fault for everything. They (the players) must take some responsibility. On the face of it he is continually saying they have the mental strength, he obviously thinks they do.

The buck has to stop with him. The same hallmarks pop up in every team he manages. Just like with Mourinho and how we see him totally lose control of things in his 3rd season, it's a pattern that happens so often with different teams you have to start looking at the manager.

[Marc Overmars]

I think what the players are guilty of is complacency. Wenger can only do so much but when they step onto the pitch you'd expect a certain degree of fight and professionalism, that should come from within.

I'm sure he doesn't tell them to only turn up for 15 minutes a game and dick around for the rest. Where he does need to take the bulk of the blame though is the failure to get a response from these players, probably due to them knowing they will receive ample opportunity to put things right even if it's too late.

[alexander]

The buck has to stop with him. The same hallmarks pop up in every team he manages. Just like with Mourinho and how we see him totally lose control of things in his 3rd season, it's a pattern that happens so often with different teams you have to start looking at the manager.

so what about the winning teams he created? (wenger that is)

[alexander]

I think what the players are guilty of is complacency. Wenger can only do so much but when they step onto the pitch you'd expect a certain degree of fight and professionalism, that should come from within.

Agree, I think Wenger could do more with the tactic side of his game, we need sometimes to adapt to the team we face rather than blindly doing the same thing, but just dont think he is to blame for the mental strength side of thinks. He clearly believes in the players, sometimes to the point of annoyance with some of them!

[Niall_Quinn]

Ranieri evidently is of the opinion you give 100% every game and for the 90 minutes. Something the experts will tell you isn't possible, even those Leicester continue to do it under their noses. If you get injuries you deal with that when the time comes. Otherwise give it your all. Don't be sitting there like Wenger trying to calculate everything to the nth degree. When we get a lead the team has been trained to back off and conserve energy, make the other team work. It's bullshit and it costs us all the time. And the joke is we end up with more injuries than a pressing team like Leicester anyway. Why Wenger can't see this is a mystery.

As for pressure, worst thing in the world is a faulty pressure valve. Better to have a total failure than random faults. We have performed well against the "top" sides and then fucked it as soon as the pressure drops. It's pure arrogance on the part of the manager, transmitted through to the team. Wenger continues to approach games against the "lesser" teams as if we only need to turn up to win. He sends the players out there unprepared to fight. It's unforgivable. And he never learns. Look at our recent CL performances. Wenger all over. Fuck with the team, take the opposition for granted, make a mess and then pull a result out of the bag to compensate. Or do the work, get to the brink of a top of the group finish and go straight to arrogance and disrespect mode for the run-in.

Leicester are crushing a lot of football myths this season. Turns out the game is a lot simpler than the megabucks big-shots would have you believe. Can anyone say Wenger or Pellegrini or van Gaal have earned their money this season? No way. They've robbed their respective clubs. Two will be out the door as a result, the other will sit there and do it all again next season. That's he underlying problem at Arsenal. The complacency, the lack of commitment, the lack of ambition, the missing desire. From the top of the club and all the way through. Our focus isn't where it should be and that's down to one man. The man that boasts about how tame and second rate this money making machine masquerading as a football club has become. Get somebody with bollocks in and the story changes. We know that won't happen though.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think what the players are guilty of is complacency. Wenger can only do so much but when they step onto the pitch you'd expect a certain degree of fight and professionalism, that should come from within.

I'm sure he doesn't tell them to only turn up for 15 minutes a game and dick around for the rest. Where he does need to take the bulk of the blame though is the failure to get a response from these players, probably due to them knowing they will receive ample opportunity to put things right even if it's too late.

I'm pretty damn sure he does. His stupid fucking red zones and efficiency and make the opponent chase the ball, and tippy tappy triangles. It's not football, it's some form of weird energy management regime that is constantly preserving the players for something that never arrives.

[Power n Glory]

I think what the players are guilty of is complacency. Wenger can only do so much but when they step onto the pitch you'd expect a certain degree of fight and professionalism, that should come from within.

I'm sure he doesn't tell them to only turn up for 15 minutes a game and dick around for the rest. Where he does need to take the bulk of the blame though is the failure to get a response from these players, probably due to them knowing they will receive ample opportunity to put things right even if it's too late.

All teams are guilty of complacency. There are only a handful of sporting individuals that never switch off. I'm talking the Michael Jordan's, Ronaldo's, Messi's Schumacher's....that abnormal concentration and hunger to train and be the very best. Not everyone is like that. They need a motivational character to keep them on track when things go slightly off and when they start to doubt. Or to be taken to the side and shown the steps again to recover that confidence. It's human nature.

Where Wenger really screws us is the culture he breeds throughout the club. He doesn't say anything at half time and just leaves the players to themselves only to speak in the last few minutes before they go out again for the next half. It's no coincidence we often concede right after half time and look half asleep making a slow start. Wenger chooses not to shout orders from the touchline to remind them of where they're going wrong. He told Pat Rice not to shout down the touchline and you can see Bould in most games doing the same. I takes no care in who should be captain and says all our players a leaders! Bollocks. Is Wilshere a leader? What example is he setting off the pitch with his smoking and clubbing?

Yes, the players should have some pride and fight. They really should. But I don't think it's intentional. When something is badly organised there is only so much you can do. Wenger is out here praising our mental strength.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/pure-arsenals-mental-strength-hailed-7681132

Now if it goes belly up for us this season and the manager is saying we had the right mental attitude what's the problem we have here? It can't be technical because our players should be miles ahead of what's above us in the league.

[Niall_Quinn]

so what about the winning teams he created? (wenger that is)

Totally different philosophy. Maximum effort from super fit players over 90 minutes. Power, movement at pace, direct. Bang, bang, bang, goal. We were famed for scoring from opposition corners. Opponents were on their guard when they were in our half, always frightened because if they lost the ball we'd be up the other end in seconds. Now look at us. Sideways, sideways, back, the opponent has all the time in the world. We play an idiotic system that give the opponent every chance. I don't know when Wenger got scared and became so conservative. Maybe that 2006 FA Cup final where we played anti-football for maybe the first time under Wenger. Horrible match. We robbed them. It was embarrassing.

[Power n Glory]

so what about the winning teams he created? (wenger that is)

The old GG team had a different mentality. They'd talk to each other and wouldn't take any crap if someone wasn't doing a proper job. Henry learned that mentality from them also and has recently said it players seem afraid to talk to each other these days. I don't know if that's the case for other clubs but it feels like that for ours.

Also, we had the confidence in the Premier League and domestic cups but we looked a totally different team in Europe. That confidence wasn't there and it's why we had a poor record in Europe.

[alexander]

Dont get me wrong, I would like a change of manager, but some of the stuff on he that gets leveled at him is just plain stupid.

Its like he was not really responsible for anything he has won with this club. It was the players that were there with GG that passed things on, he didnt buy the back four, he tells them to go and play for only 15 mins, any wins are due to players taking things into their own hands. On the other hand when they dont win its because they didnt have a winning mentality instilled in them by Wenger. Players he looks at buying are no good and only the ones from this `stat-dna` computer thing or whatever its called are worth a rub. We maybe did bore our way through that final, but that was what was needed at the time, had we played like we had been, gung-ho we would have been beaten. He changed tactics to win. You seem annoyed we won it by in that way, would you rather we lost? in which case you would have moaned. I understand people want change but come on, we are starting to rubbish his entire career at arsenal now!

I just think some of the rubbish on here gets a bit much. If he wins because of good tactics and team selections he gets the praise, equally if he messes up because of poor choice of team or tactics, he deserves to be held to account. If he gets us to a CL final (I know that wont happen!!) and we bore the shit out of the game and win, well thats what it takes, winning first, then winning looking pretty second.

Give him his dues for what he has done for not only the club, but the league, and what he has won us and that we are a massively rich club. Yes he has seems to have been struggling these last few years, but its certainly not all his fault, and not through want of trying. Dont make him out to be some moron that has no idea about the game and wants us to do the bare minimum and fail. Thats just stupid.

[Niall_Quinn]

Is there anyone here trying to deprive Wenger of credit for the first stage of his career at Arsenal? Not sure there is. For me it's the special nature of that early success and the type of football we played that makes it even harder to bear his cowardice and two-faced dealings in later years.

[alexander]

Is there anyone here trying to deprive Wenger of credit for the first stage of his career at Arsenal? Not sure there is. For me it's the special nature of that early success and the type of football we played that makes it even harder to bear his cowardice and two-faced dealings in later years.

Well you are tracking back to 2006 now, 12 years ago. Power n Glory is saying Henry learnt the mentality from GG teams players, totally negating Wenger then? he had no involvement? and he didnt pass it on then? I read over and over that Wengers early success was built on GG back four. Yes, those players were there before he arrived, but they were doing very little until he arrived. I just feel the anger towards Wenger is mostly unjust. He isnt perfect, but he isnt the shower of shite that some are making him out to be.
Im still in the change manager camp though, although I fear us ending up like ManU.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Is there anyone here trying to deprive Wenger of credit for the first stage of his career at Arsenal? Not sure there is. For me it's the special nature of that early success and the type of football we played that makes it even harder to bear his cowardice and two-faced dealings in later years.

I think Zims hatred of Wenger is pathalogical

I am fairly relieved that he has no more say in who replaces Wenger than the rest of us (nil) because he seems to be under the impression that anyone and everyone would be better than L'Ouisseau.

Or you get cretins like Piers Morgan who said in August that he'd take Gary Neville as Arsenal manager in a heartbeat. The kind of cretinous remark that anyone who isn't Piers Morgan would have occasion to regret making.

And whilst there are people who can definitely take us forward where he can, I think we have to be incredibly careful in who we choose. And I am inclined to think without a change at the board level that we won't be significantly better off whoever comes in.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well you are tracking back to 2006 now, 12 years ago. Power n Glory is saying Henry learnt the mentality from GG teams players, totally negating Wenger then? he had no involvement? and he didnt pass it on then? I read over and over that Wengers early success was built on GG back four. Yes, those players were there before he arrived, but they were doing very little until he arrived. I just feel the anger towards Wenger is mostly unjust. He isnt perfect, but he isnt the shower of shite that some are making him out to be.
Im still in the change manager camp though, although I fear us ending up like ManU.

I haven't mentioned Graham's back four, so dealing with just the 2006 final I believe it was a nasty turning point in the mentality of the club as a whole. It was as if we singled out a showcase event to announce our shift in focus. And we certainly delivered thereafter, in every negative sense. That was the end of Wenger MkI, fittingly smack in the middle of his tenure. Wenger MkII has been nothing short of disgraceful, though inertia has eased the decline in terms of the right and proper backlash which eventually had to come. All this keeping us top 4 crap can be easily translated into keeping CL cash pouring in. All the most notable landmarks in the period have taken place in the boardroom rather than on the pitch. This has been the decade where Wenger assisted some rather unsavoury characters in dismantling the football club and rebuilding it as a business. I could have lived with that if the football had survived the transition but it didn't. And for a manager do go backwards so comprehensively in terms of what ought to be his primary concern, the football, is shameful. He has no excuses. It's simply not valid to say the chavs or the gypos or the economy forced him to deliver shit, boring, conservative crap when he'd already demonstrated what he was capable of. A reversal like that is cowardice. I give him every credit for his first 10 years (bar that turning point in the cup which was sad and humiliating) but he deserves the contempt he's receiving for his part in the latter half of his time here. Even more frustrating is we know his teams can still play decent football if that famous handbrake is released, which it rarely is these days. I can forgive anything except the awful football.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think Zims hatred of Wenger is pathalogical

I am fairly relieved that he has no more say in who replaces Wenger than the rest of us (nil) because he seems to be under the impression that anyone and everyone would be better than L'Ouisseau.

Or you get cretins like Piers Morgan who said in August that he'd take Gary Neville as Arsenal manager in a heartbeat. The kind of cretinous remark that anyone who isn't Piers Morgan would have occasion to regret making.

And whilst there are people who can definitely take us forward where he can, I think we have to be incredibly careful in who we choose. And I am inclined to think without a change at the board level that we won't be significantly better off whoever comes in.

This is a dilemma that has been deliberately constructed, Wenger being one of the key architects. They even boast about the comprehensive extent of the subversion. A club transformed from top to bottom, all the old stripped away from inside leaving a mere facade and this new appalling purpose installed at every level. Money, money, money. There's no going back and fixing it.

So maybe a bit of decent and purposeful football can ease the pain? There's where the real urgency to get rid of Wenger originates. He won't do it. He won't grow a pair and go for the win, not even in a season as strange as this one. Not even when it's on a plate. It's hard to think of many managers who could be so impotent.

[alexander]

He has no excuses. It's simply not valid to say the chavs or the gypos or the economy forced him to deliver shit, boring,

Well it really is, we just couldn't compete not only on transfer fees but weekly wages too. Anything we were interested in, they could just come in and take what they wanted.

[Letters]

Totally different philosophy. Maximum effort from super fit players over 90 minutes.
That bit just isn't true. We often blitzed teams early and then sat back, job done.
We were a much better team and had a strong captain but it's just not true that back in the day we gave 100% throughout every game.

[alexander]

That bit just isn't true. We often blitzed teams early and then sat back, job done.
We were a much better team and had a strong captain but it's just not true that back in the day we gave 100% throughout every game.

As with anything, when it come to reminiscing about good times and success, you tend to look back with rose tinted glasses.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well it really is, we just couldn't compete not only on transfer fees but weekly wages too. Anything we were interested in, they could just come in and take what they wanted.

I didn't say we had to win titles, I said it's unforgivable how our football was transformed and allowed to stagnate. It was Wenger who imported dwarfs and turned to tippy, tappy. If we couldn't compete financially for the best players then why try to build Barcelona? Made no sense then and makes no sense now.

[alexander]

I didn't say we had to win titles, I said it's unforgivable how our football was transformed and allowed to stagnate. It was Wenger who imported dwarfs and turned to tippy, tappy. If we couldn't compete financially for the best players then why try to build Barcelona? Made no sense then and makes no sense now.

So we couldn't compete with buying the top players, do you accept man city and Chelsea and Man U were more likely to win the league, we were still best of the rest with what was about. If we had bought some cloggers you would have moaned we were playing boring Stoke like football. The football was very good st times with Cesc, Nasri etc. He will never win in your eyes. He did the best with what was available. We finished where everyone expected us to.

[Power n Glory]

Well you are tracking back to 2006 now, 12 years ago. Power n Glory is saying Henry learnt the mentality from GG teams players, totally negating Wenger then? he had no involvement? and he didnt pass it on then? I read over and over that Wengers early success was built on GG back four. Yes, those players were there before he arrived, but they were doing very little until he arrived. I just feel the anger towards Wenger is mostly unjust. He isnt perfect, but he isnt the shower of shite that some are making him out to be.
Im still in the change manager camp though, although I fear us ending up like ManU.

Far from shite. Maybe you haven't paid attention to what former players have said about the culture around the dressing room but I won't go into a full explanation. It's something you'll have dig out from Google or something.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/aug/23/arsene-wenger-arsenal-udinese?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487



"One of the gifts Arsène has got is that he's a lovely human being and I respect him a great deal. But I've got to get it real: coaching isn't his strong point. I love him dearly, he's a fantastic psychologist but he's not a great motivator. I'd just laugh at his attempts to gee us up – but I come from a different place, time and culture."

I'm not discounting Wenger's influence on the team but if you're saying the players don't look like they're giving their all, who can you blame for that? Wenger says the team have a strong mentality and we don't lack leaders. Would you agree with him? If not why not and what's the answer to solving it?

[Niall_Quinn]

That bit just isn't true. We often blitzed teams early and then sat back, job done.
We were a much better team and had a strong captain but it's just not true that back in the day we gave 100% throughout every game.

We were the fittest team in the league, in fact that's one of the key improvements Wenger introduced to the English game. We could outlast any domestic team over 90 minutes. I didn't claim we ran full pelt for 90 minutes (as you are misleadingly trying to suggest) I said we gave 100% and we did. We used to control games from start to finish. I remember it very well indeed, knowing for a fact we were going to win because we were faster, stronger, fitter and just better. That's why the 2006 final was such a shocker. The most un-Arsenal like performance imaginable. Everything we'd excelled at just gone. And then Wenger set about destroying the team with a purpose. He's never looked back and now we play some of the worst football in the league. The frustration being that every now and again we play some of the best football in the league. Which highlights the manager as the problem, not the lack of capability in the players.

I really can't understand how anyone can defend this man any longer. Are we or are we not 11 points behind Leicester City with the moneybags chavs and gypos already out of the running? This is failure on a level that cannot be excused under any circumstances and it's a failure that mirrors a decade of failure. The sad and pathetic and overpaid managers of the gypos and chavs will pay the price of failure. Rightly so. Our sad and pathetic overpaid flop will get to sail on as if nothing has happened. That cannot be defended. Neither can his failures be isolated to this one season as if we are witnessing an anomaly. Far from it.

[Niall_Quinn]

So we couldn't compete with buying the top players, do you accept man city and Chelsea and Man U were more likely to win the league, we were still best of the rest with what was about. If we had bought some cloggers you would have moaned we were playing boring Stoke like football. The football was very good st times with Cesc, Nasri etc. He will never win in your eyes. He did the best with what was available. We finished where everyone expected us to.

I don't think you are comprehending what I am saying. What I am NOT saying is we have some God given right to win the title and I expect delivery regardless of the environment. I'm saying we play shit football most of the time, with the standard getting progressively worse season after season. In fact now the financial restraints are off the football is worse than ever. This is what I find unacceptable. Not the fact we don't win the title every season, not the fact we can't buy the very best players. But when you look at the players we've had in the past and the players we have now it's only right the manager be criticised for the shit that is being served up - in return for the highest ticket prices in world football by the way. Scandalous.

[alexander]

I blame the players themselves. How much motivation do you need, you are doing a job that many would give their all to do and are paid handsomely for doing it for one of europes best clubs.
As for Adams, great leader on the pitch, and would like to have someone like him in the squad now. But as for his opinions on being a good coach, I would take that with a pinch of salt tbh. He hardly went on to glorious things with being a coach himself.

[alexander]

I don't think you are comprehending what I am saying. What I am NOT saying is we have some God given right to win the title and I expect delivery regardless of the environment. I'm saying we play shit football most of the time, with the standard getting progressively worse season after season. In fact now the financial restraints are off the football is worse than ever. This is what I find unacceptable. Not the fact we don't win the title every season, not the fact we can't buy the very best players. But when you look at the players we've had in the past and the players we have now it's only right the manager be criticised for the shit that is being served up - in return for the highest ticket prices in world football by the way. Scandalous.

Who in the league plays good football now though? Nobody really. It's more a game of attrition these last few seasons. When he tried to play Tika-taka, like Barca, albeit with much less quality of player, he was trying to play good exciting football, and win. It didn't work out and you didn't like that type of football either.

[selassie]

I saw that too. He's trying to convince everyone that we're mentally strong but it contradicts the performances and what the players themselves say. He's had to check both Ozil and Sanchez when they've spoken out about our failings. There is no point in telling everyone they need to 'believe' and hope for the best. There has to be some action behind that and the players need to feel confident in their manager and each other. He's all theory and no practice.

It's ridiculous and childish. He even made a snipe earlier on in the season midway through the collapse citing that people were wrong for saying Arsenal always collapse in title races, the statistical evidences over the past 12 years proves otherwise! He's arguing against stats that are correct!

The players are just as responsible as Wenger but his laissez faire approach doesn't help, I have no idea what he was saying to the team midway through the collapse but it seemed to me as if he "hoped" we would play our way back into form. He repeatedly picked the same team even though they were stinking up the place!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think anyone takes singular blame

The players are to blame because as Ozil has even admitted they screwed it up and didn't play like they believe they can in certain games.

The manager is to blame for not addressing the lethargy in the team, not utilising the squad he has well enough and not adding to the squad in terms of quality in the transfer market.

The board and ownership are to blame for taking a hands off approach to the footballing aspect of the club and not putting sufficient pressure on Wenger to acheive more or failing that replace him with someone more capable.

[alexander]

I don't think anyone takes singular blame

The players are to blame because as Ozil has even admitted they screwed it up and didn't play like they believe they can in certain games.

The manager is to blame for not addressing the lethargy in the team, not utilising the squad he has well enough and not adding to the squad in terms of quality in the transfer market.

The board and ownership are to blame for taking a hands off approach to the footballing aspect of the club and not putting sufficient pressure on Wenger to acheive more or failing that replace him with someone more capable.

I think this is a fair statement.

[Letters]

I didn't claim we ran full pelt for 90 minutes (as you are misleadingly trying to suggest) I said we gave 100% and we did.
No, we didn't. I had a season ticket in that era and that's just not true.
Quite regularly I'd see us blitz a team and then coast the rest. Yes we controlled games, we were the best side around, but if we'd given 100% we'd have got double figures in many games.


I really can't understand how anyone can defend this man any longer.
Well, it depends what he's being accused of. If Spurs fans chant about him being a paedophile then I'll defend him.
I think he should be sacked, but that doesn't mean I think he's a complete incompetent or that everything he does is wrong and that anyone could come in and we'd do better.
I'll defend him against stuff like that and comments like he's a "sad and pathetic overpaid flop". That's just WUMming (he is overpaid of course, but so are most people in football).

It hasn't been a decade of failure. Neither has it been a decade of success. Those two statements are not contradictory, it's too simplistic to paint it as success or failure. As I keep reminding you, 2 years ago you backed his new contract on the strength of the FA Cup win, now you're calling it a decade of failure and dismissing the FA Cup as meaningless.

A more balanced view is that there has been some success and some failure. Overall I'd there's been more of the latter but keeping us in the top 4 was a success in the era when the billionaires were having the most impact. The two FA Cups have been nice and a seemed like a sign of hope. We should have won a couple of titles in that era though. This year has been a weird one - it looks like we'll finish above all the usual suspects and then lose the league to Leicester :doh:.

As you said, the other top sides are changing their manager because of this, we should too. And yes, I doubt we will.

[Letters]

I don't think anyone takes singular blame

The players are to blame because as Ozil has even admitted they screwed it up and didn't play like they believe they can in certain games.

The manager is to blame for not addressing the lethargy in the team, not utilising the squad he has well enough and not adding to the squad in terms of quality in the transfer market.

The board and ownership are to blame for taking a hands off approach to the footballing aspect of the club and not putting sufficient pressure on Wenger to acheive more or failing that replace him with someone more capable.

:gp:

Pretty much.

[alexander]

I think he should be sacked, but that doesn't mean I think he's a complete incompetent or that everything he does is wrong and that anyone could come in and we'd do better.
I'll defend him against stuff like that and comments like he's a "sad and pathetic overpaid flop". That's just WUMming (he is overpaid of course, but so are most people in football).

Agree with this, I do understand people want him out, but it just gets so carried away on here. This season has been the biggest disappointment, I agree we should have taken advantage and won the league. But in previous seasons, while stadium was going up, and we were trying to compete with City and Chav money, and ManU, we held our own and did the best we could have. I enjoyed the two FA Cup wins too.

[GP]

I find him shallow and pedantic.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I find him shallow and pedantic.

Your mum is shallow and pedantic

[GP]

Your mum is shallow and pedantic

Yes, shallow and pedantic.

[Power n Glory]

I blame the players themselves. How much motivation do you need, you are doing a job that many would give their all to do and are paid handsomely for doing it for one of europes best clubs.
As for Adams, great leader on the pitch, and would like to have someone like him in the squad now. But as for his opinions on being a good coach, I would take that with a pinch of salt tbh. He hardly went on to glorious things with being a coach himself.

You don't have to be a great coach for that conclusion. He's saying from his experience Wenger didn't really motivate him. If you check the history of what players in the past have said, it's never been a case of Wenger geeing up the players to get a result. From the Invincible season you hear about Campbell constantly chanting 'together' and having them huddled in a circle repeating the same thing. It's great that Wenger put that team together and provided an environment where that sort of mental strength can flourish. But what happens when we don't have that sort of environment and the players don't talk to each other? What next? Also, what do you do when the manager says that the we have a great fighting spirit. 'Pure' as he puts it? How can a problem be fixed if he doesn't recognise a problem?

[Letters]

This is why I think the lack of a strong captain is a big factor. The buck stops with Wenger, obviously, but IMO that is a big factor.
That said, the players don't get off the hook entirely. If you're 2-0 down to Watford in the FA Cup then maybe you should get going earlier than 5 minutes from the end. If they'd switched on 10 minutes earlier then we'd have done no worse than get a replay.

[Power n Glory]

It's ridiculous and childish. He even made a snipe earlier on in the season midway through the collapse citing that people were wrong for saying Arsenal always collapse in title races, the statistical evidences over the past 12 years proves otherwise! He's arguing against stats that are correct!

The players are just as responsible as Wenger but his laissez faire approach doesn't help, I have no idea what he was saying to the team midway through the collapse but it seemed to me as if he "hoped" we would play our way back into form. He repeatedly picked the same team even though they were stinking up the place!

It's like he's in denial. Vieria did say his greatest strength is his faith in players but also said it's his weakness. I also have a beef with certain players but it goes back to the manager again. He seems to easily pleased with certain performances. Too forgiving when the results don't go.our way.

[Power n Glory]

This is why I think the lack of a strong captain is a big factor. The buck stops with Wenger, obviously, but IMO that is a big factor.
That said, the players don't get off the hook entirely. If you're 2-0 down to Watford in the FA Cup then maybe you should get going earlier than 5 minutes from the end. If they'd switched on 10 minutes earlier then we'd have done no worse than get a replay.

We have 11 captains on the pitch according to Wenger. Would you agree with that statement?

[Letters]

We have 11 captains on the pitch according to Wenger. Would you agree with that statement?

We've enough players who have been there and done it at the business end of the season. Not 11, but in theory we should have enough strong characters to be doing better than we are.
I wouldn't say we have one dominant character like an Adams or Vieira though who drags them through when things aren't going our way.

[alexander]

We've enough players who have been there and done it at the business end of the season. Not 11, but in theory we should have enough strong characters to be doing better than we are.
I wouldn't say we have one dominant character like an Adams or Vieira though who drags them through when things aren't going our way.

this.

wenger has always said a captain isnt a big deal, but it really is. I cant really see who our obvious captain should be though. We can see how little regard Wenger holds it in as the captaincy has been passed around like an essex girl since Viera. Its odd really as we have people like Merts, Cech, Ozil, Alexis that have all been there and done it all, but I still dont see any of them as obvious leaders.

[alexander]

He seems to easily pleased with certain performances.

Do you think its just something he says in public though? Behind the scenes he might give them a bit more grief? Although he does put too much faith in some players, more of a father than a manager. But then you could have someone who is too far the other way like Jose, who alienates and destroys players.

[Niall_Quinn]

We have 11 captains on the pitch according to Wenger. Would you agree with that statement?

Are you talking about the real world or Wenger World?

[alexander]

Are you talking about the real world or Wenger World?

fine in theory, and I like the idea, but its human nature for some to be leaders and others to follow. The 11 captains thing is obviously complete twaddle!

[Niall_Quinn]

fine in theory, and I like the idea, but its human nature for some to be leaders and others to follow. The 11 captains thing is obviously complete twaddle!

Wenger has used the captaincy for anything and everything but leadership. Bribing players to stay was the main usage. I remember all the way back when he pissed in Gilberto's face in return for the service, loyalty and leadership that particular player gave us. Wenger has never treated the captaincy with the respect it deserves. As soon as Adams was out the captaincy effectively went in the bin.

[alexander]

As soon as Adams was out the captaincy effectively went in the bin.

wrongly imo.

[Özim]

Wenger never ever criticises or puts pressure on his players, all he ever does is praise them, is it any surprise they never feel they have any to prove.

You can blame the players but at the end of the day, he's the guy who signs them, picks them, doesn't bring in adequate cover to create competition and is suppose who drills them tactically.

Players who aren't leaders (something Wenger doesn't believe in anyway) need guidance and leadership from the touchline, Wenger doesn't offer this either.

The buck stops with Wenger for me, he has total control over what happens, if players don't perform he has to take the blame as he signs them, picks them and doesn't give them a kick up the arse when required.

[Özim]

We've enough players who have been there and done it at the business end of the season. Not 11, but in theory we should have enough strong characters to be doing better than we are.
I wouldn't say we have one dominant character like an Adams or Vieira though who drags them through when things aren't going our way.

All of those players who have won things maybe relied on stronger characters in the teams they played in, I don't see any real leaders in our team, haven't done for years and it shows but then Wenger doesn't believe in them so it's no surprise.

Wenger had a successful blueprint, but he chose to rip it up and do the opposite and has refused to change back to the winning formula, it's all very odd IMO.

I don't agree, we don't have enough strong characters, we have talent but no real leaders and haven't had for years, when the chips our down there's noone to pick them up

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger never ever criticises or puts pressure on his players, all he ever does is praise them, is it any surprise they never feel they have any to prove.

You can blame the players but at the end of the day, he's the guy who signs them, picks them, doesn't bring in adequate cover to create competition and is suppose who drills them tactically.

Players who aren't leaders (something Wenger doesn't believe in anyway) need guidance and leadership from the touchline, Wenger doesn't offer this either.

The buck stops with Wenger for me, he has total control over what happens, if players don't perform he has to take the blame as he signs them, picks them and doesn't give them a kick up the arse when required.

There are exceptions. Players that challenge him in some way (or he perceives as challenging him) will get criticised, usually in public. Ozil is the most recent example. If you are keeping your nose clean doing that stupid Twatter "we had a secret meeting", "we believe we can win it", "the dressing room is strong", bullshit then Wenger is happy. But come and and say we fucked up and Wenger will react. Rightly so, in some ways, because players shouldn't be raising certain issues in public. But Wenger often starts the ball rolling. His public criticism of Ozil for not scoring enough goals was a bullshit move.

[fakeyank]

Wonder which person at the club selects the players, and ultimately the captain... dont think its the manager.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

There are exceptions. Players that challenge him in some way (or he perceives as challenging him) will get criticised, usually in public. Ozil is the most recent example. If you are keeping your nose clean doing that stupid Twatter "we had a secret meeting", "we believe we can win it", "the dressing room is strong", bullshit then Wenger is happy. But come and and say we fucked up and Wenger will react. Rightly so, in some ways, because players shouldn't be raising certain issues in public. But Wenger often starts the ball rolling. His public criticism of Ozil for not scoring enough goals was a bullshit move.

This is the thing, Wenger doesn't believe in publically criticising his players but sometimes he tends to forget this belief system. But in most press conferences it's best to think of Wenger as a company PR man who always wants to State that there are "no Americans at the airport" even when it's manifestly untrue.
What he says to the players in private is anyone's guess, I am told he has bollocked players for their conduct in public....especially those pictured smoking. And the reason for dropping Szczesny in favour of the clearly inferior Ospina was made because of the lack of respect shown by Szczesny by smoking in the shower room, which is school boy behaviour and deserved to be punished.

I think we have seen there are sacred cows at Arsenal who are undroppable no matter how poor their form (Ramsey being the most recent example of this). And i think it's unlikely he launches into tirades at his players (but then again there are instances of counter examples even to this).

On the whole it's what Wenger does rather than what he says from where you can draw conclusions, because he's so enigmatic it's usually hard to get a handle on what he's thinking.

[Power n Glory]

Do you think its just something he says in public though? Behind the scenes he might give them a bit more grief? Although he does put too much faith in some players, more of a father than a manager. But then you could have someone who is too far the other way like Jose, who alienates and destroys players.

His actions and words are mostly consistent. He has stuck by certain players with his team selection and chosen not to buy a replacement which is why I think it's more than words.

[Letters]

Wenger never ever criticises or puts pressure on his players, all he ever does is praise them, is it any surprise they never feel they have any to prove.
We have no idea what he says behind the scenes. He doesn't publicly criticise the, but not should he - would you want your manager shouting at you in front of everyone? That would be extremely poor management.
The players should take some responsibility but yes, of course the buck stops with Wenger. He's responsible when we win the FA Cup, he's responsible when we fall apart when the title was there for the taking.

[Letters]

I don't agree, we don't have enough strong characters, we have talent but no real leaders and haven't had for years, when the chips our down there's noone to pick them up
Letters and Zim agreeing on something shock exclusive. IMO that is the biggest problem.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/nov/06/arsene-wenger-arsenal-philosphy-facilitator



Arsène Wenger details philosophy: ‘I’m a facilitator of what is beautiful in man’
• Arsenal manager talks about coaching style in interview with L’Equipe
• ‘I am only a guide. I allow others to express what they have in them

Arsène Wenger has lifted the lid on some of his deepest philosophies in a revealing interview with a French magazine.

The Arsenal manager, who goes into Sunday’s north London derby against Tottenham with his side level on points with the Premier League leaders, Manchester City, addressed a number of topics including religion and his obsession with time in an interview with L’Equipe’s Sport and Style magazine.

Asked if he has a “mystical power” over his players when he is preparing them for a match, Wenger replied: “Religiously, it is said that God created man. I am only a guide. I allow others to express what they have in them. I have not created anything. I am a facilitator of what is beautiful in man.

“I define myself as an optimist. My constant battle in this business is to get out there what is beautiful in man. We can at this level portray me as naive. At the same time, it allows me to believe it and it often gives me reason.”


Conducted at the Hotel Belles Rives – once the home of the American novelist F Scott Fitzgerald – in the south of France during the international break, the interview began by describing Wenger’s reaction to being dressed in a long grey flannel coat for a photoshoot. “It reminds me of when I went to school in Duttlenheim,” he remarked.

Wenger was then reminded he is approaching 7000 days as Arsenal’s manager having been appointed on 30 September 1996. “For me, it represents nothing other than the fact of practicing a profession exclusively facing forward. Look to the next day,” he said.

“I still live in the future. It is planned. Tight. My relationship with time is quite scary. I’m still trying to fight it. I’m always afraid of being late. Not to be ready. Not being able to accomplish all that I planned. My personal relationship with time is scary. To go back in time, to look behind yourself is equally staggering.”

Wenger added: “The only moment of possible happiness, is the present. The past gives regrets. And future uncertainties. Man quickly realised this and created the religion. It forgives him what he has done wrong in the past and tells him not to worry about the future, as you will go to paradise.”

As a player, Wenger was known for reading a passage from the Bible before matches but he admitted his attitude has altered since becoming a manager. “Unfortunately today, it works less! At the same time, fortunately, it means that my team does not necessarily need God to win.”

I was looking for the words to describe Wenger's coaching style and stumbled upon this. Is he too philosophical? I rarely here him talk about the technical aspect of the game. He always seems to be looking at spiritual and mental aspect of game. He's not ignorant to the trends in football either and seems to watch a lot of football so I don't get why he seems so far behind on certain things.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/nov/06/arsene-wenger-arsenal-philosphy-facilitator



I was looking for the words to describe Wenger's coaching style and stumbled upon this. Is he too philosophical? I rarely here him talk about the technical aspect of the game. He always seems to be looking at spiritual and mental aspect of game. He's not ignorant to the trends in football either and seems to watch a lot of football so I don't get why he seems so far behind on certain things.

Sounds like his philosophy is a wing and a prayer. In the present, I am not happy because of what happened in the past and will happen in the future, unless we get a new manager. It's not religion, it's common sense.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Is there anyone here trying to deprive Wenger of credit for the first stage of his career at Arsenal? Not sure there is. For me it's the special nature of that early success and the type of football we played that makes it even harder to bear his cowardice and two-faced dealings in later years.

Yes there is. There has been consistent allusions by some that the early success was down to Graham's team. While Graham's defence was a factor and it would be crazy to deny that, it was the philosophy of the early Wenger era that drove his team on to produce the most exciting football I have ever had the privilege to see.

And it was successful but ultimately should have been even more so .

[Power n Glory]

Yes there is. There has been consistent allusions by some that the early success was down to Graham's team. While Graham's defence was a factor and it would be crazy to deny that, it was the philosophy of the early Wenger era that drove his team on to produce the most exciting football I have ever had the privilege to see.

And it was successful but ultimately should have been even more so .


I'm definitely not saying that. We're talking specifically about the mentality of the squad and characters. The characters with the fighting and strong mentality came from Graham's team. You don't have to look far to see the foreign players we brought in talk of how tough Adams and Keown were and how much they learned about what it meant to be Arsenal from those guys. The North London Derby games and so on. Alex asked about previous Wenger teams and the mentality and I answered. You've said yourself the GG team was a factor and we're only discussing a factor of what's wrong with the team, so let's keep it at that and not assume something else is being said. Wenger was ahead of his time when he arrived and he earned a lot of respect from the GG players. Perfect marriage between continental flair and English football.

[alexander]

I'm definitely not saying that. We're talking specifically about the mentality of the squad and characters. The characters with the fighting and strong mentality came from Graham's team. You don't have to look far to see the foreign players we brought in talk of how tough Adams and Keown were and how much they learned about what it meant to be Arsenal from those guys. The North London Derby games and so on. Alex asked about previous Wenger teams and the mentality and I answered. You've said yourself the GG team was a factor and we're only discussing a factor of what's wrong with the team, so let's keep it at that and not assume something else is being said. Wenger was ahead of his time when he arrived and he earned a lot of respect from the GG players. Perfect marriage between continental flair and English football.

I think that 'English/british'backbone of players that most clubs had, is dying out. I think at the advent of the premier league, and when more and more foreign players started to pour into the league, it's being lost. I just don't see the leaders on the pitch now, from lots of teams. Back in the day there was Adams, Keane, Gerrard, Terry, these type of players that came through the ranks, or had been at the club a long time and passed on the values that the players from the past had done. There is more a journeyman feel to so many players now, that it's just not the same. When I look back at the times I used to go to watch, and a player like Adams could get the whole crowd and team going, same for someone like Keane or Gerard etc. The whole landscape of the game has changed, and I'm not sure if it will recover. It's probably why when a player like Jack or Alex Iwobi breaks through to the first team, it means so much to us, it's like one of our own making it, someone like Iwobi that has been at Arsenal 10 years before getting into the team. If he continues at the way he is going and doesn't end up like Wilshere, he is the type of player, that if he has the character, could be captain, it's that type of thing that gets the fans going and the team.

[Power n Glory]

I think that 'English/british'backbone of players that most clubs had, is dying out. I think at the advent of the premier league, and when more and more foreign players started to pour into the league, it's being lost. I just don't see the leaders on the pitch now, from lots of teams. Back in the day there was Adams, Keane, Gerrard, Terry, these type of players that came through the ranks, or had been at the club a long time and passed on the values that the players from the past had done. There is more a journeyman feel to so many players now, that it's just not the same. When I look back at the times I used to go to watch, and a player like Adams could get the whole crowd and team going, same for someone like Keane or Gerard etc. The whole landscape of the game has changed, and I'm not sure if it will recover. It's probably why when a player like Jack or Alex Iwobi breaks through to the first team, it means so much to us, it's like one of our own making it, someone like Iwobi that has been at Arsenal 10 years before getting into the team. If he continues at the way he is going and doesn't end up like Wilshere, he is the type of player, that if he has the character, could be captain, it's that type of thing that gets the fans going and the team.

Totally. I think we’ve seen all the top teams lose core players that embodied their clubs principles to retirement and old age. Where we’re different is that we dismantled our Invincible squad within a few seasons. It was brutal. Keown, Parlour, Wiltord, Edu, Kanu all left on a free after we won the title. We sold Vieira the next season. Pires went on a free after. Bergkamp retires. We let Sol go, we lose Cashley, we sell Lauren, we sell Henry, we sell Freddie and finally Lehman. Wiped that team out within a few years and brought in very young players that had no idea what it meant to be an Arsenal player or how to battle through a whole season. It was just too brutal. We didn’t retain anything from that era. We didn’t even allow long serving players to retire with us and go into coaching with us. The young players could have learned so much if those guys were around in the dressing room. It’s where we went wrong. Wiped the culture of the club out too quickly. Our rival clubs held on to their guys for as long as possible but we did the opposite.

[Letters]

Yes there is. There has been consistent allusions by some that the early success was down to Graham's team. While Graham's defence was a factor and it would be crazy to deny that, it was the philosophy of the early Wenger era that drove his team on to produce the most exciting football I have ever had the privilege to see.

And it was successful but ultimately should have been even more so.
:good:

It was a successful side because of his strengths and it wasn't more successful because Wenger has flaws. This is what people don't seem to recognise. Maybe this isn't what people think but it comes across like people think Wenger was this genius of a manager back in the day and is now a bumbling idiot . The fact is he revolutionised the English game with his fitness regime and his knowledge of the European game. For a while we were just better than everyone else. And yes, people do talk about the Graham defence and while that was a factor it wasn't the main one, and the Invincibles defence was entirely his own.

Now we're not better than everyone else. Other clubs have caught up and arguably overtaken us with the fitness methods and worldwide scouting network. The billionaires swept in and bought up titles right at a time when our funds were (relatively speaking) restricted. We've lost the edge Wenger initially gave us. He's done pretty well to keep us in the top 4 during the stadium move, now we've got the new financial deals we should be pushing on. The FA Cups bought him some time to do so but this year we really needed to challenge. We did for a while but now we've fallen away. But that doesn't mean that he's suddenly an idiot or that the last 10 years have been an unmitigated failure.

[selassie]

It's like he's in denial. Vieria did say his greatest strength is his faith in players but also said it's his weakness. I also have a beef with certain players but it goes back to the manager again. He seems to easily pleased with certain performances. Too forgiving when the results don't go.our way.

Aye, I remember that comment from Vieira and it's been said by some of the Old "English" core too, Dixon and Keown.

I agree that Wenger is ultimately the problem here, I'm not for one minute trying to absolve the players from blame but Wenger's approach quite clearly only works when the team has a core of experienced leader types, something we all know we haven't had for quite some time and Wenger is directly responsible for that because he's the one that builds the team.

[selassie]

:good:

It was a successful side because of his strengths and it wasn't more successful because Wenger has flaws. This is what people don't seem to recognise. Maybe this isn't what people think but it comes across like people think Wenger was this genius of a manager back in the day and is now a bumbling idiot . The fact is he revolutionised the English game with his fitness regime and his knowledge of the European game. For a while we were just better than everyone else. And yes, people do talk about the Graham defence and while that was a factor it wasn't the main one, and the Invincibles defence was entirely his own.

Now we're not better than everyone else. Other clubs have caught up and arguably overtaken us with the fitness methods and worldwide scouting network. The billionaires swept in and bought up titles right at a time when our funds were (relatively speaking) restricted. We've lost the edge Wenger initially gave us. He's done pretty well to keep us in the top 4 during the stadium move, now we've got the new financial deals we should be pushing on. The FA Cups bought him some time to do so but this year we really needed to challenge. We did for a while but now we've fallen away. But that doesn't mean that he's suddenly an idiot or that the last 10 years have been an unmitigated failure.

I haven't seen anyone suggesting Wenger was a genius back in the day. Wenger was undoubtedly a more competitive and progressive manager, he was up there with Fergie who begrudgingly was and has been the best manager in PL.

Back in the good old days Wenger built "balanced" squads that were packed full of players with the necessary skillsets and attributes to make us one of the best teams in the country over a sustained period of time. He wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary, he was just recruiting correctly and filling the team/squad with what it needed.

We lost the edge Wenger gave us through the points you have mentioned but also because he no longer builds balanced teams/squads, finances play a part in as much as that we can no longer cherry pick the best talent available, we couldn't really back in the day either so to speak. Despite that, the lack of funds doesn't mean Wenger has to mismanage his squad season after season, he happily paid out mega bucks in wages for his "projects" players back in the era of Project Youth so the money was there to some extent, it just wasn't and hasn't been used wisely for quite some time.

We have money now and nothing has changed, Wenger is still leaving us short and mismanaging the squad.

So he may not be a bumbling idiot now, but he's certainly not managing anywhere near the level we know he is capable of, why he makes the decisions he makes these days are anybody's guess.

[Power n Glory]

:good:

It was a successful side because of his strengths and it wasn't more successful because Wenger has flaws. This is what people don't seem to recognise. Maybe this isn't what people think but it comes across like people think Wenger was this genius of a manager back in the day and is now a bumbling idiot . The fact is he revolutionised the English game with his fitness regime and his knowledge of the European game. For a while we were just better than everyone else. And yes, people do talk about the Graham defence and while that was a factor it wasn't the main one, and the Invincibles defence was entirely his own.

Now we're not better than everyone else. Other clubs have caught up and arguably overtaken us with the fitness methods and worldwide scouting network. The billionaires swept in and bought up titles right at a time when our funds were (relatively speaking) restricted. We've lost the edge Wenger initially gave us. He's done pretty well to keep us in the top 4 during the stadium move, now we've got the new financial deals we should be pushing on. The FA Cups bought him some time to do so but this year we really needed to challenge. We did for a while but now we've fallen away. But that doesn't mean that he's suddenly an idiot or that the last 10 years have been an unmitigated failure.

On whose part is this misunderstood? Just looking at Bob’s and Alexander’s response to what I’ve said about Wenger’s previous teams, I think there is a misunderstanding on their part because I and others have been accused of revisionism and trying to strip Wenger off all his accomplishments. When younger, I thought Wenger was a genius but as the years have gone by and we’ve seen key components stripped away from the club (Old Guard, Vieira, Dein, etc) and Wenger being unable to reproduce the same results. Yes, the game has moved on and teams have improved but is it wrong to assume Wenger worked a lot better with figures like Dein and certain players? Surely we have to recognise the contribution from those that have left as well and consider their influence on the manager?

I said a long time ago Wenger wasn’t a great tactician and it was a pretty unpopular opinion when I said it on GW years back. So certain things being said now have been said before and not just a case of completely downgrading Wenger because where we are in the league. You say we were way better than the opposition when Wenger arrived and I agree with that totally. We were ahead of all of the Premier League teams tactically, fitness levels, technically, scouting etc. Yes, we’ve recently lost the edge but if we were way better than everyone else, when Chelsea arrived and then City, technically, we should have been way better than everyone else bar the 3 teams that were minted. So I don’t really go overboard with the Top 4 finishes.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger's past is only useful for comparison purposes and trying to explain why he is so behind the pace today. But I have heard fans saying the successes of his early years are sufficient that he should be allowed to write his own legacy, go when he wants, stay for as long as he wants, decide who will replace him. That's bullshit. The only thing we should be concerned with is what he's delivering today and it's not enough.

How would fans react if Wrighty was brought back as the main striker based on his amazing record with the club? Well the same goes for Wenger. As the banner says, thanks for the memories but goodbye. The only disrespect on show is Wenger's as he hangs on and refuses to leave even though he has failed to deliver time after time.

His legacy needs to be kept in context. It is not a magic shield, or it shouldn't be. It's not up to the fans to defend that legacy either. Wenger needs to do that himself, through his performances. Who would be criticising him if he was delivering results? In fact who would be criticising him after only one or two seasons off the pace? Very few. But it's 10 seasons and that's more than enough. While the efforts of his early years shouldn't be tarnished his performance in the later years can be rightly judged to be entirely unacceptable. Not just because he hasn't delivered, but because he's stubborn, arrogant, a man who refuses to listen to anyone or learn even from his own experience. Fans trying to sugar coat the last 10 years by pointing back even further don't have a leg to stand on. It's not Wenger's job to make excuses about why he can't deliver. It's his job to deliver regardless of the environment, as Ferguson did. We saw Arsenal and Utd battle it out season after season before the chavs arrived. After that Wenger can't get a look-in while Ferguson takes up the battle and holds his own. Wenger can make all the excuses he wants, but it wasn't the chavs that prevented him replacing Vieira, it wasn't the chavs that hired a bunch of tippy, tappy dwarfs to go up against the Neanderthals in the PL, it wasn't the gypos who signed Sanogo for us or brought Flamini back on a freebie. Wenger did all that. If he wants to make every decision on every issue then let him stand by those decisions when the shit comes down.

I would say enough excuses for Wenger now. They are tired, over used and they don't stand up to even the mildest scrutiny. Not after all this time. At what point, 10 seasons down the line and counting, do the hard core Wenger supporters (like that ginger on Arsenal Fan TV) twig what's happened here? Wenger. Plot. Lost. Seriously, wakey, wakey!

[Power n Glory]

Aye, I remember that comment from Vieira and it's been said by some of the Old "English" core too, Dixon and Keown.

I agree that Wenger is ultimately the problem here, I'm not for one minute trying to absolve the players from blame but Wenger's approach quite clearly only works when the team has a core of experienced leader types, something we all know we haven't had for quite some time and Wenger is directly responsible for that because he's the one that builds the team.

It's well documented. A lot of them talk highly of the English core and how tough they were on them. It really helped prepare them for the league and the toughness required.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Really? I thought it was universally understood that Wenger has always been tactically limited

In fact the same things were said about Arsenal even when he had his invincibles team, deny them space and time and they will find it hard to play, they don't like playing physical teams, they try to walk the ball in the net etc

The difference today is the players that Wenger has bought since 2006 are on average smaller, physically slighter and more technical and they don't take collective responsibility for their performances.
They also lack the ability to defend a corner and about ten seconds later have the ball in the opposistion net which was the greatest strength of that Wenger team to break with pace.

[Niall_Quinn]

Really? I thought it was universally understood that Wenger has always been tactically limited

In fact the same things were said about Arsenal even when he had his invincibles team, deny them space and time and they will find it hard to play, they don't like playing physical teams, they try to walk the ball in the net etc

The difference today is the players that Wenger has bought since 2006 are on average smaller, physically slighter and more technical and they don't take collective responsibility for their performances.
They also lack the ability to defend a corner and about ten seconds later have the ball in the opposistion net which was the greatest strength of that Wenger team to break with pace.

That was it. The tactics were simple. First stand up to the opponent and win the physical confrontation (often in the tunnel), then control the play and encourage the opponent to come out, then hit them ruthlessly on the break - at least three men breaking at high speed right across the pitch. Finally outlast the opponent using superior stamina and fitness (to the point we were accused of drugging up the players). Right players, right tactics for this league.

Then Wenger made the catastrophic decision to create Barca Lite. We've never recovered. We could have recovered, but he's too stubborn to acknowledge his mistakes. That clip with him talking about creating beauty in man. Basically, fuck off. Admit you were wrong matey and fix it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't know, I don't think it's as simple as that there were times when we passed the ball to death and showed little in the way of penetration even when we had the players where we could play the style of football you have just described.

For a key example look at the Champions league home games in the second stage group of 2002/2003 where we failed to break down Valencia, Ajax or Roma at Highbury (0-0), (1-1) and (1-1).

Which suggests to me that the tactics have changed less than the attributes of the playing personnel.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't know, I don't think it's as simple as that there were times when we passed the ball to death and showed little in the way of penetration even when we had the players where we could play the style of football you have just described.

For a key example look at the Champions league home games in the second stage group of 2002/2003 where we failed to break down Valencia, Ajax or Roma at Highbury (0-0), (1-1) and (1-1).

Which suggests to me that the tactics have changed less than the attributes of the playing personnel.

I agree, that was a result of Plan A failing which was to draw the opponent on to us. When they refused we'd be a bit stuck, but we had brilliant individuals who could improvise. Players better than Giroud, for example.

[Power n Glory]

Really? I thought it was universally understood that Wenger has always been tactically limited

In fact the same things were said about Arsenal even when he had his invincibles team, deny them space and time and they will find it hard to play, they don't like playing physical teams, they try to walk the ball in the net etc

The difference today is the players that Wenger has bought since 2006 are on average smaller, physically slighter and more technical and they don't take collective responsibility for their performances.
They also lack the ability to defend a corner and about ten seconds later have the ball in the opposistion net which was the greatest strength of that Wenger team to break with pace.

Universally now but not in the early when GW first started. Wenger was hardly questioned in the early days. A lot has changed since.

[Globalgunner]

We have never had a team as great as the boys of 2000-2004. If Wenger wasnt able to reach the heights with those players. Its unlikely with him getting worse and players getting worse that we will ever be able to reach even those giddy heights. Even the great teams need a great manager to take them over the mountain.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Universally now but not in the early when GW first started. Wenger was hardly questioned in the early days. A lot has changed since.

From what I can remember he was criticised but his sacking was not called for by many until the last five years or so.

[Niall_Quinn]

From what I can remember he was criticised but his sacking was not called for by many until the last five years or so.

I wasn't here for the early days of GW. So whatever was said back then doesn't really count for much.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I remember the previous GW forum which I only ever sporadically used

The best posts were often non football related

So in fact very little has changed

[Power n Glory]

From what I can remember he was criticised but his sacking was not called for by many until the last five years or so.

Not to the extent of what's being said here and now and it's roundly accepted that he's not a great tactician. Mots of the discussions on the old forum were about missing Vieira, a good captain, excitement and disappointment with new young players. Much more varied.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think to a great extent there was a big element of missing Vieira, even now we miss that powerhouse box to box midfielder.

I think it's also only fair to measure the discontentment along the lines of the length of time we've gone without a major trophy. Over a decade without the premier league is not good enough, but for instance if Wenger had bungled his way to a title in the last few years people's attitudes wouldn't be as stark as they are now.

Whatever we complain about poor performances, failure to strengthen, rotten records against certain oponents, making the same mistakes and raise in season ticket costs....it boils down to a failure to both win the league or make a significant impact in the champions league. These are causal factors in why we have failed to win big trophies, but it's the failure to win big trophies that are the bottom line.

And Leicester city winning the title which seems the likeliest outcome adds insult to injury.

GW in 2007 or 2008 would have been an optimistic atmosphere because relatively speaking we hadn't gone for an exceptionally long period without a league title.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Largely the prevailing attitude in the past is irrelevant, the thread has broken well and truly now that Letters thinks he should go and all it has proven is how little influence the fans have over his tenure at the club.

[Power n Glory]

I think to a great extent there was a big element of missing Vieira, even now we miss that powerhouse box to box midfielder.

I think it's also only fair to measure the discontentment along the lines of the length of time we've gone without a major trophy. Over a decade without the premier league is not good enough, but for instance if Wenger had bungled his way to a title in the last few years people's attitudes wouldn't be as stark as they are now.

Whatever we complain about poor performances, failure to strengthen, rotten records against certain oponents, making the same mistakes and raise in season ticket costs....it boils down to a failure to both win the league or make a significant impact in the champions league. These are causal factors in why we have failed to win big trophies, but it's the failure to win big trophies that are the bottom line.

And Leicester city winning the title which seems the likeliest outcome adds insult to injury.

GW in 2007 or 2008 would have been an optimistic atmosphere because relatively speaking we hadn't gone for an exceptionally long period without a league title.


I'm not really measuring the discontentment to be honest. I'm just linking things back to this argument about revising history. For me, I've always thought Wenger wasn't a great tactician.

NQ also wrote a good response about the discontent not only being linked to the lack of silverware.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think that's the only legitimate way you can measure discontentment unless we were constantly playing like a Chelsea

[Power n Glory]

I think the stubbornness and seeing the same rigid approach to games that's really killed off the hope. If it were just about trophies, we all should be pretty content right about now.

[Letters]

Found this from the old board, this in the wake of the Birmingham debacle. Interesting to see how long the malaise goes back.

http://z13.invisionfree.com/goonersweb/index.php?showtopic=47805&st=0

[Letters]

is it wrong to assume Wenger worked a lot better with figures like Dein and certain players? Surely we have to recognise the contribution from those that have left as well and consider their influence on the manager?
Yes, I think that is a valid point and many have cited Dein's departure as a factor in all this.

I think the consistent top 4 finishes are fairly impressive, especially given the money other clubs were throwing around. Many predicted that Wenger had us in a spiral of decline which would see us drop out but I think that level of consistency, while it shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions, is an achievement.

I just get the impression that some people see a huge difference in Wenger's ability between his first part of his time with us and the latter part. I don't see it like that. Maybe he lacks a little bit sharpness now, as others have said most people drop off in terms of ability as they get older, but I don't think there has been a big a change as some people imply. If anything it's because he hasn't changed while all around him has which has been the problem. Or a problem. The billionaires coming in were definitely a factor too.

I think we'd be better off now if we move on from Wenger. I do think it's a bit of a stretch if people think we'd have been in a better position had we changed manager 10 years ago. It's possible but not a given. And I certainly don't think that Wenger is so incompetent that any manager could come in and we'd improve.

[Niall_Quinn]

Astonished.

Why, because every fan, player, pundit and Journalist can see our problems, our style and our needs.

Only one man either can't or refuses to see it....and he's the one with total control and has no pressure placed on him.

Therefore this will happen next year and time again until he goes or accepts something that seems so obvious.


Bored.

At least you could laugh at Selley, Morrow, McGoldrick, Jensen etc.

The players now look soulless in a soulless ground mostly full of soulless day-trippers from abroad or Tarquins and Bethany's who don't even know who Selley, Morrow, McGoldrick were.

I only enjoyed 2 games all season - Barca at home and Man City away. - I can barely remember the others.

This is the closest I've come to not re-newing the old season ticket and I'm only doing it with a very heavy heart (and a very empty wallet)


The complete predictability of everything from the morning of the CC final - 3 hours before kick-off has ran like clockwork in the how to collapse stakes.


Some of us saw this coming three years ago and tried to warm everyone but guess what, we were the ignoramus idiots. Hate to say ot but been telling you so.


Arsene Wonga'd


'Boring'

I miss seeing us hit teams on the break - I loathe the sideways passing crap.


Humiliating

Worst season in Wengers reign this is

And then we had the next 5 years :doh:

It's not really GW's fault is it? I mean what else is there to say when the same shit just keeps repeating year after year? We should all get a medal for sticking it out, or get a girlfriend or a life.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes, I think that is a valid point and many have cited Dein's departure as a factor in all this.

I think the consistent top 4 finishes are fairly impressive, especially given the money other clubs were throwing around. Many predicted that Wenger had us in a spiral of decline which would see us drop out but I think that level of consistency, while it shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions, is an achievement.

I just get the impression that some people see a huge difference in Wenger's ability between his first part of his time with us and the latter part. I don't see it like that. Maybe he lacks a little bit sharpness now, as others have said most people drop off in terms of ability as they get older, but I don't think there has been a big a change as some people imply. If anything it's because he hasn't changed while all around him has which has been the problem. Or a problem. The billionaires coming in were definitely a factor too.

I think we'd be better off now if we move on from Wenger. I do think it's a bit of a stretch if people think we'd have been in a better position had we changed manager 10 years ago. It's possible but not a given. And I certainly don't think that Wenger is so incompetent that any manager could come in and we'd improve.

The billionaires made us pass sideways.

[alexander]

Found this from the old board, this in the wake of the Birmingham debacle. Interesting to see how long the malaise goes back.

http://z13.invisionfree.com/goonersweb/index.php?showtopic=47805&st=0

Looked at that, the league at 27 games and 37 games, we have perfected this art of collapsing at the end of a season havent we :coffee:

[GP]

Found this from the old board, this in the wake of the Birmingham debacle. Interesting to see how long the malaise goes back.

http://z13.invisionfree.com/goonersweb/index.php?showtopic=47805&st=0

I just spent 45 mins looking through old threads.

Goonersweb used to be hilarious.

[Letters]

Your face still is.

[GP]

So's your face.

[alexander]

I think we'd be better off now if we move on from Wenger. I do think it's a bit of a stretch if people think we'd have been in a better position had we changed manager 10 years ago. It's possible but not a given. And I certainly don't think that Wenger is so incompetent that any manager could come in and we'd improve.

This is true. Not just anyone can come in, thats just churlish. I remember Owen Coyle being continually linked, and look where he is (I have no idea actually, but it isnt anywhere decent).
This is my watershed season, the one thats broken me and I would like a change of manager, but the other part of me is thinking who can do a job that at the very least gets us to challenge right to the very end of the season, and gets us to semi/final of CL, or else whats the point in changing? Because we are not far from being there, it just needs a few tweaks in playing staff and tactics. Something that wenger doesnt seem to be able to prise out of the players, that last little bit, to make us great.

[Letters]

Aye, that's the frustrating thing. We're really not a million miles away. Just last season we finished 3rd and won the FA Cup, it's not a bad season to push on from. We just need someone who can push us that last bit. I hoped that Wenger could do it but it's increasingly clear he can't.

[Niall_Quinn]

Actually we are a million miles away. Do you see us challenging for the CL with the squad we have? We aren't close. We aren't a million miles away from winning the PL because frankly, it's shite. Just one small change required and we all know what that is.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is true. Not just anyone can come in, thats just churlish. I remember Owen Coyle being continually linked, and look where he is (I have no idea actually, but it isnt anywhere decent).
This is my watershed season, the one thats broken me and I would like a change of manager, but the other part of me is thinking who can do a job that at the very least gets us to challenge right to the very end of the season, and gets us to semi/final of CL, or else whats the point in changing? Because we are not far from being there, it just needs a few tweaks in playing staff and tactics. Something that wenger doesnt seem to be able to prise out of the players, that last little bit, to make us great.

The Owen Coyle thing was a joke, btw.

Until now, that is.

[alexander]

Actually we are a million miles away. Do you see us challenging for the CL with the squad we have? We aren't close. We aren't a million miles away from winning the PL because frankly, it's shite. Just one small change required and we all know what that is.

I think if we had a top CF this season we would have won the league. With a top CF and top CDM we could have been closer to the CL. But the manager also needs a change at the same time, to get the best from what we have and the players we are missing.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Found this from the old board, this in the wake of the Birmingham debacle. Interesting to see how long the malaise goes back.

http://z13.invisionfree.com/goonersweb/index.php?showtopic=47805&st=0
I'm glad to see my well reasoned analysis is there for all to see in the second post :good:

:lol:

[selassie]

Actually we are a million miles away. Do you see us challenging for the CL with the squad we have? We aren't close. We aren't a million miles away from winning the PL because frankly, it's shite. Just one small change required and we all know what that is.

Yep, we've been a million miles away for a while now because we always go into the season unprepared and needing x, y or z.

We've been discussing the "we need a new player in a insert position" for about 5 years now and for every position we fill a new one crops up that needs upgrading. It's a never ending issue.

[Letters]

We're a million miles away from Barca but so is every English team.
We're not that far from winning the league and as we haven't done that for so long I think that would be a good target in the short term.

[Niall_Quinn]

We're a million miles away from Barca but so is every English team.
We're not that far from winning the league and as we haven't done that for so long I think that would be a good target in the short term.

That's what I already said - apart from the "every English team" disclaimer. As always, I don't care about every English team - just the one that's building a new stadium and doubling ticket prices to compete at the very top of the European game.

[Letters]

And still has less resources than at least 3 other clubs who are trying to do the same.
It's only been in the last few years we've had the finances to get anywhere near competing.

[Niall_Quinn]

And still has less resources than at least 3 other clubs who are trying to do the same.
It's only been in the last few years we've had the finances to get anywhere near competing.

Perhaps they shouldn't have pinned all their hopes on UEFA regulating fair play :doh: UEFA FFS!

Who do you think "sustainable" really works for? Who benefits? The club has traded ambition for a financial model that is the envy of every corporate rapist. Privatise the profits, socialise the costs. Zero risk, maximum reward. Let's not be kidding ourselves about this any more. The finances are precisely where the few who benefit want them to be and this casting around looking at other clubs for excuses doesn't hide the reality.

[Globalgunner]

And still has less resources than at least 3 other clubs who are trying to do the same.
It's only been in the last few years we've had the finances to get anywhere near competing.

And while we`ve been managing our finances in order to compete. Leicester and Spuds have been managing their team and backroom staff to do the same.
Well managed club is we.

Are we still using the money excuse?

[selassie]

And still has less resources than at least 3 other clubs who are trying to do the same.
It's only been in the last few years we've had the finances to get anywhere near competing.

:lol: you do make me laugh Letters!

[Power n Glory]

Perhaps they shouldn't have pinned all their hopes on UEFA regulating fair play :doh: UEFA FFS!

Who do you think "sustainable" really works for? Who benefits? The club has traded ambition for a financial model that is the envy of every corporate rapist. Privatise the profits, socialise the costs. Zero risk, maximum reward. Let's not be kidding ourselves about this any more. The finances are precisely where the few who benefit want them to be and this casting around looking at other clubs for excuses doesn't hide the reality.

:gp:

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger, April 2015


‘If the opportunity presents itself, we will have to be perfect and Chelsea have to be not perfect. The only thing which we can master is to be perfect. Chelsea have a difficult programme and so do we.

‘We want to keep the momentum — win, win, win and win again. We know the top four is in our hands now. The title is not in our hands. We are looking up, but we are looking at our next game because that is all we can control. What we can master mathematically is the top four. Let’s focus on what we can master — our own performance.’

‘We have moved forward. We missed important players at the start of the season when we dropped too many points. When you look at the points we’ve made since everyone is back, I believe that shows you we have the quality to fight at the top.’




Wenger, April 2016


“We have to be realistic and just prepare for the next game and not dream too much. When I say be realistic we have to look behind, over our shoulders, as well.

"Manchester City, Manchester United, West Ham are chasing. Let’s look over our shoulders and also chase if we can.

"To find a team who clicks at the right moment, sometimes you have all kinds of reasons.

"I feel we want to win our games and see what happens. It is too difficult to say any more than that. We have only one target now.

“I believe this team has the right mentality, I have had many teams in my life and this team is top quality.

"They have gone through a bad period but when they play like that, it shows that mentally, they are pure.”


Wenger, April 2017

Go on, have a wild stab.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger, April 2016 (talking about Ozil's comments a day earlier)


"Because we have to believe, no matter if it just one chance in 100, we have to believe. We only have a real chance if we believe."

So which is it? Believe, or be realistic and avoid dreaming?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's a bit like asking kids in pantomime audience to chant "I believe in fairies" to bring Tinkerbell back to life

[Chippy]

That's a bit like asking kids in pantomime audience to chant "I believe in fairies" to bring Tinkerbell back to life

This subject has kind of wandered away from the original question? Who's going to win the league ffs! :p

[Niall_Quinn]

That's a bit like asking kids in pantomime audience to chant "I believe in fairies" to bring Tinkerbell back to life

Tinkerbell's dead!!!?

[Özim]

And still has less resources than at least 3 other clubs who are trying to do the same.
It's only been in the last few years we've had the finances to get anywhere near competing.

Well actually no, we have more similar or more resources as we're owned by two billionaires, one of which of whom is richer than the Russian at Chelsea.

As for the CL we've been a million miles away for a decade when other smaller clubs have actually got closer than us. You can sugar coat it all you like but we got knocked out by Monaco and have failed time and time again in the CL when we should have done better.

[Niall_Quinn]

This subject has kind of wandered away from the original question? Who's going to win the league ffs! :p

We are, if we win all our games and the spuds and Leicester fuck up and we don't get caught by the gypos or the mancs and we have great spirit and take one game as it comes but we remain relistic and avoid dreaming so we can believe 100%

Obvious isn't it?

[Niall_Quinn]

Well actually no, we have more similar or more resources as we're owned by two billionaires, one of which of whom is richer than the Russian at Chelsea.

As for the CL we've been a million miles away for a decade when other smaller clubs have actually got closer than us. You can sugar coat it all you like but we got knocked out by Monaco and have failed time and time again in the CL when we should have done better.

tbf, we're a sustainable club so that means the investors don't invest. Much better for the fans to foot the bill than have a rich guy pony up - it's the moral way to go. In fact we're so moral the non-investing investors take money out.

[Özim]

Perhaps they shouldn't have pinned all their hopes on UEFA regulating fair play :doh: UEFA FFS!

Who do you think "sustainable" really works for? Who benefits? The club has traded ambition for a financial model that is the envy of every corporate rapist. Privatise the profits, socialise the costs. Zero risk, maximum reward. Let's not be kidding ourselves about this any more. The finances are precisely where the few who benefit want them to be and this casting around looking at other clubs for excuses doesn't hide the reality.

This sustainable model thing is a load of nonsense as you say, we're only interested in profits, the fans have been lied to from day 1 regarding the stadium move, I still remember when we were told there would be no point having a world class stadium without world class team in it and that the stadium would not affect transfer spending, very convenient that it did however.

We're owned by two billionaires, we don't need to be sustainable, I can remember people telling everyone how Chelsea will be screwed if Abrahamovic left. Guess what he hasn't left and if he did another rich guy would come along and buy them, seems to me their fans got the better end of the deal, top players, success and all without having to pay the highest tickets in the land.

Winning teams make more money in the long term anyway, the only problem is that it does take investment to make you winners, our lot are clearly just interested in profits now and not bothered about success on the pitch and at the end of the day if the fans are happy to pay to keep paying top dollar for the privilege of winning nothing and always being also rans it's not a bad deal for them.

[Özim]

tbf, we're a sustainable club so that means the investors don't invest. Much better for the fans to foot the bill than have a rich guy pony up - it's the moral way to go. In fact we're so moral the non-investing investors take money out.

Morally superior cup 2016 :trophy:

and 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015

When you add that to all the 4th place trophies we've won and the Emirates cup trophies as well, not to mention the best cotton for footballers award, we're spoilt....what are we complaining about.

All hail the might Arsene Wenger :bow:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I've no issue with the model of self sustainability but you raise for once a good point that ultimately even if you are interested in money the best way to get ridiculous money from sponsorship and marketing is to invest in a winning team. However for Mr Kroenke the clubs worth is just an asset for his portfolio, and the rest of the board are a bunch of coffin Dodgers who understand the modern footballing climate about as well as my three year old nephew understands the concept of credit default swaps.
You can imagine what a board meeting would be like, limited visibility due to cigar smoking

"You remember that coloured chap we used to have play for us?"
"Which one old boy?"
"The one we have a statue of outside"
"Ah rings a bell, anyway what about darky?"
"Well he's on the what do you call it the television, saying things about the frog we have knocking about"
"Damned inpertinence....wouldn't have stood for it on the plantation....anyway more brandy?"

[Power n Glory]

Wenger, April 2016 (talking about Ozil's comments a day earlier)



So which is it? Believe, or be realistic and avoid dreaming?

I sort of get what Wenger is trying to create or instil in the players but it's just a little too late. The Invincible team had that superior confidence and never knew when they were beaten. They were strong mentally and it's probably why Wenger talks so much about the mental aspect of our team.and attitude. But it sounds a lot like he's trying to convince us and himself that this team are capable of winning and that the attitude is their because from what Ozil has said recently it sounds like it's not all there.

[Chippy]

We are, if we win all our games and the spuds and Leicester fuck up and we don't get caught by the gypos or the mancs and we have great spirit and take one game as it comes but we remain relistic and avoid dreaming so we can believe 100%

Obvious isn't it?
Erm, no.:(

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I've no issue with the model of self sustainability but you raise for once a good point that ultimately even if you are interested in money the best way to get ridiculous money from sponsorship and marketing is to invest in a winning team. However for Mr Kroenke the clubs worth is just an asset for his portfolio, and the rest of the board are a bunch of coffin Dodgers who understand the modern footballing climate about as well as my three year old nephew understands the concept of credit default swaps.
You can imagine what a board meeting would be like, limited visibility due to cigar smoking

"You remember that coloured chap we used to have play for us?"
"Which one old boy?"
"The one we have a statue of outside"
"Ah rings a bell, anyway what about darky?"
"Well he's on the what do you call it the television, saying things about the frog we have knocking about"
"Damned inpertinence....wouldn't have stood for it on the plantation....anyway more brandy?"
lol!!!

[Letters]

:lol: you do make me laugh Letters!
Excellent debating :good:

[Letters]

Well actually no, we have more similar or more resources as we're owned by two billionaires, one of which of whom is richer than the Russian at Chelsea.
That's a stupid argument. You know why.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's a stupid argument. You know why.

Nope. Thought about it and I can't figure out why that's a stupid argument. I give up. Tell me.

[Letters]

Chelsea's dad is a millionaire and he gives Chelsea loads of money. Chelsea has a big house and a cool sports car.
Arsenal's dad is also a millionaire but he doesn't give Arsenal any money, he actually charges Arsenal rent to live in his house. Arsenal has a Suzuki Swift.
Arsenal and Chelsea are going to have a race in their cars. Who do you think will win?
Both of their dads are loaded so they'll both have fast cars, right?

[GP]

Aston Villa's dad is an abusive alcoholic :(

[Letters]

:lol:

[Power n Glory]

Chelsea's dad is a millionaire and he gives Chelsea loads of money. Chelsea has a big house and a cool sports car.
Arsenal's dad is also a millionaire but he doesn't give Arsenal any money, he actually charges Arsenal rent to live in his house. Arsenal has a Suzuki Swift.
Arsenal and Chelsea are going to have a race in their cars. Who do you think will win?
Both of their dads are loaded so they'll both have fast cars, right?

:doh: Where are Chelsea and City in the league and who are we behind this season. Dumb argument.

[Letters]

Where were they before Abramovic and that Sheikh fella came along? :good:

[Letters]

The general point is the wealth of our respective owners does not necessarily correlate with our spending power, which is what Zim seemed to imply.
It doesn't really matter how rich our owners are if they're leeches who just want to make a profit for themselves.

[selassie]

Excellent debating :good:

I wasn't actually debating, I just find it amusing how Chelsea, City and the dopers get included in every discussion we have about Arsenal with you.

Yes we know City and to a lesser extent these days Chelsea spend big money, yes we know they have stronger squads than ours. But for me it always comes back to are WE as in Arsenal FC doing enough to be competitive on the field.

The assumption you made with your analogy was that we have rich owners that are not giving Wenger a budget to work with. How do you know what his budget is? If anything, the noises coming out of the camp have been that Wenger has a good financial budget and is not using it.

[Letters]

IBut for me it always comes back to are WE as in Arsenal FC doing enough to be competitive on the field.
I think that's valid and I agree we haven't made the most of the resources we do have.
But to suggest the billionaires haven't had a massive impact over the last decade is ridiculous.
And to suggest that the wealth of our owner relative to other owners means we have the same resources available as other clubs make no sense.
It doesn't matter how much money our owner has, only how much he is willing to make available to us.

[IBK]

I wasn't actually debating, I just find it amusing how Chelsea, City and the dopers get included in every discussion we have about Arsenal with you.

Yes we know City and to a lesser extent these days Chelsea spend big money, yes we know they have stronger squads than ours. But for me it always comes back to are WE as in Arsenal FC doing enough to be competitive on the field.

The assumption you made with your analogy was that we have rich owners that are not giving Wenger a budget to work with. How do you know what his budget is? If anything, the noises coming out of the camp have been that Wenger has a good financial budget and is not using it.

Nail on head here!

[Özim]

Where were they before Abramovic and that Sheikh fella came along? :good:

Chelsea we're 2nd or 3rd I think, they were a pretty decent side by all intents and purposes. Mourinho elevated them to a new level.

[Niall_Quinn]

This argument is getting crazy.

The chavs and gypos spend whereas our owners don't. Therefore our lack of performance can be explained in that context and Wenger's performance can be made respectable. This is like saying we lost the game because we stayed in bed, therefore the other team had an unfair advantage and our team can be excused as a result.

Yes we know our "investors" don't spend on the team. Another fuck-up, bringing in precisely the wrong people, something Wenger was deeply involved in and even boasts about when he rattles on about sustainability". The Sustainability Cup :doh:

Our owners are a fuck-up. Our manager is happy they are a fuck-up, he doesn't even see them that way. He sees them as good for the game, the way the game should be, the "proper" way. In a normal business he'd be right. But football isn't a normal business and when it is run as such we get Arsenal, a club with zero ambition, in it not to win it but to make steady profits. That's not football. We can't be going around forgiving this fucked up approach and celebrating how well the manager has done when in fact we haven't even tried.

Our "investment" ran straight out the door in the wallets of the fuckers who put fuck-all in and scooped what must have been a 10,000% return. Not phased by that nasty lesson the manager turns around and says yes, let's get some more do-nothing cocksuckers in here so they can leech their way to another massive return. What sort of football man is Wenger to sit there and be happy with that?

I'm not saying let's bankrupt the club. But if those cunts are going to realise a 100% return, which looks very likely, then they ought to be kicking some of that back and the manager should be all over them demanding as much. Besides, kicking a bit back makes it more likely we can compete. And competing opens up the way for trophies and sponsorship and an increased global fan base. More money. Speculate to accumulate.

But no. Sustainability. We live within our means. Except for Stan and Arsene. They live like fucking kings on the back of all the cash sloshing around the place. Good for them. But don't tell me either bloke loves this club in a football sense. In a business sense, yes, what's not to love? But loving it in the way the fans love it. Fuck off. These guys are not one of us, they are one of "them".

All of them need to fuck off.

[Power n Glory]

Where were they before Abramovic and that Sheikh fella came along? :good:


The general point is the wealth of our respective owners does not necessarily correlate with our spending power, which is what Zim seemed to imply.
It doesn't really matter how rich our owners are if they're leeches who just want to make a profit for themselves.

That's not what's at the heart of the debate. We're struggling to take advantage of a situation where we have more resources than the two clubs above us. It's irrelevant in regards to this season. Also, we're owned by two billionaires. That's a fact. Two billionaires that seem to hold Wenger up in high regard.

Question - do you think they'd deny Wenger funds if he requested more from their own pocket? If he kicked up a real stink and used his power and influence, would they really deny him? I problem I've had with Wenger for a long time is the way his ideas and thoughts seem to align with the owners. He fights more to protect their interests rather than the interests of the fans or his own. In fact, it's why I don't want him to here at Arsenal after he's done managing because I'd question his integrity even further. Championing a model that he directly profits from with he's done managing and awarded shares in the club. I don't think that's what's going on but I'd be highly suspicious if he to take a seat upstairs one day.

[Özim]

That's a stupid argument. You know why.

I'm not so sure, Wenger has clearly shown over the years a reluctance to spend and he's even said in the past if you gave him 100 million he'd hand it back, to the theory that we can't spend big money is unfounded as it's never been put to the test, even though I agree our billionaires most likely won't pay up like Abrahmovic.

We do however have a fair fortune we haven't spent because Wenger won't, if we used that we'd most likely be closer to the title and CL.

Either way Wenger offers value for money, he never demands more money and it suits them as well, in the end though we sold out to the two billionaires and perhaps we should have questioned them more or got some guarantees and perhaps known more about their expectations on the sporting side.

[selassie]

I think that's valid and I agree we haven't made the most of the resources we do have.
But to suggest the billionaires haven't had a massive impact over the last decade is ridiculous.
And to suggest that the wealth of our owner relative to other owners means we have the same resources available as other clubs make no sense.
It doesn't matter how much money our owner has, only how much he is willing to make available to us.

There is no question they have had an impact and it has made it a lot more difficult for other teams to challenge and win the domestic trophies but no amount of spending from the dopers can legislate for the recurring issues we have seen at Arsenal over the past 10 years.

I'm not suggesting we have the budget of the dopers to spend on new players, but I would be extremely surprised if we didn't have a much bigger budget than what Wenger is spending, all the evidence points towards Wenger being the one who isn't willing to spend to rectify the issues in the team.

[Letters]

Chelsea we're 2nd or 3rd I think, they were a pretty decent side by all intents and purposes. Mourinho elevated them to a new level.

Nope, 4th. 16 points away from champions Utd.
The 3 seasons before that:
6th
6th
5th
So yeah, they were a decent side but they hadn't won the league since 1955 and didn't look like they were going to any time soon.
And yes, Mourinho bought them the league. Well done him.
As always he left a complete car crash behind recently, how incompetent do you have to be to have the champions scrapping around near the relegation zone? :lol:

[Özim]

But no. Sustainability. We live within our means. Except for Stan and Arsene. They live like fucking kings on the back of all the cash sloshing around the place. Good for them. But don't tell me either bloke loves this club in a football sense. In a business sense, yes, what's not to love? But loving it in the way the fans love it. Fuck off. These guys are not one of us, they are one of "them".


Totally agree, we know Kroenke doesn't give a toss about the club, nor does he care about football, getting rid of Dein a guy who clearly loved football was a bg mistake in that respect, we now have an owner and a manager who put football a distant 2nd.

As for Wenger, I agree he doesn't love the club in a football sense the way it should be loved, he has no respect for the fans and see's finances as the priority, to him we're winners because we're sustainable and in the end he picks up his 8 million a year pay cheque and doesn't ask if he's offering value for money because to him it's a gimme.

A man that loves a football club doesn't go home with 8 million in his hand happy when he hasn't delivered success on the pitch.

[Niall_Quinn]

Let's not kid ourselves. We are £150mill - £200mill away from a squad that can compete at the very top level. But when you spread investment like that over a 5 year period it doesn't look nearly as daunting and if players had been brought in as they were needed we'd have steadily become more competitive. Who's to say we wouldn't have gained all that £200mill back in increased revenues based on increased ambition?

But Wenger sees it differently. Everyone else is wrong, he's right. And you know what - HE PROBABLY IS RIGHT! Just like I'm 100% correct when I say tax is theft. But does that mean I won't be paying my taxes? You play the game as it is presented to you at any given time. Buck the system without working to change the system and you lose while everyone around you just gets on with it. And if you are trying to change the system then don't be so fucking dumb and rely on UEFA to do it for you. Wenger's efforts so far appear to be endlessly moaning about the chavs and the gypos. That'll teach them.

In football money talks. Wenger doesn't like this. I don't like it either. I'm not sure any genuine fan likes it. But until something is done to change the reality then there's no point screaming about injustice while you hack your own nose off to spite your face. And isn't it bloody convenient our "moral" approach to all this is very lucrative for the few and very expensive for the many? Oh what a fucking surprise!

[Letters]

That's not what's at the heart of the debate.
I don't know what you mean by 'the debate'. I was responding directly to Zim's assertion that:


we have more similar or more resources as we're owned by two billionaires, one of which of whom is richer than the Russian at Chelsea.
That just doesn't follow. How rich our owners are is irrelevant unless they're willing to put their considerable fortune at our disposal as Abramovic has done with Chelsea.

Whether we're making the most of the resources we do have is a different point. Would they deny him? It seems to me they're taking out from the club, not putting in. So I'd say yes, they probably would if Wenger wanted to go mental in the transfer market a la Chelsea or City. I don't think they'd put their money in to do that.

[Özim]

Would they deny him? It seems to me they're taking out from the club, not putting in. So I'd say yes, they probably would if Wenger wanted to go mental in the transfer market a la Chelsea or City. I don't think they'd put their money in to do that.

Maybe, however Wenger probably mesmerised them with his methodolgy of delivering maximum profits with minimum spend and minimum success.

He was here long before they arrived and we all know about his financial prudence it's clear they love the guy, he's probably fed them a load of stats about the merit of just coming 4th and qualifying for the CL without spending and it's easy to see why someone not interested and with no knowledge of football might buy into this methodology. After a number of years of this they're probably happy with the business model and have no real incentive to change, especially with a manager not interested in changing things at the helm who isn't going to ask them for any money.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't know what you mean by 'the debate'. I was responding directly to Zim's assertion that:


That just doesn't follow. How rich our owners are is irrelevant unless they're willing to put their considerable fortune at our disposal as Abramovic has done with Chelsea.

Whether we're making the most of the resources we do have is a different point. Would they deny him? It seems to me they're taking out from the club, not putting in. So I'd say yes, they probably would if Wenger wanted to go mental in the transfer market a la Chelsea or City. I don't think they'd put their money in to do that.

By "go mental" do you mean not being the only manager in Europe who didn't sign an outfield player because in his crazy little mind he thought this squad was already good enough?

Why is it always pushed to the extreme? We spend nothing because the only alternative would be spending like the chavs and the gypos? Nothing in between? Like a decent midfielder or striker? Would it have been "mental" to go into this season properly prepared to make a serious challenge? And it's not just this season, it's every bloody season. Again, a massive convenience. Coincidental of course.

[Letters]

I'm not so sure, Wenger has clearly shown over the years a reluctance to spend and he's even said in the past if you gave him 100 million he'd hand it back, to the theory that we can't spend big money is unfounded as it's never been put to the test, even though I agree our billionaires most likely won't pay up like Abrahmovic.

We do however have a fair fortune we haven't spent because Wenger won't, if we used that we'd most likely be closer to the title and CL.

Either way Wenger offers value for money, he never demands more money and it suits them as well, in the end though we sold out to the two billionaires and perhaps we should have questioned them more or got some guarantees and perhaps known more about their expectations on the sporting side.

Pretty much agree with that, but the logic that wealth of owners correlates to available resources is flawed.
But anyway, we do have the resources to compete now, we have started spending folding money and while it's yielded some results it's increasingly clear that Wenger can't push us any further.

[Power n Glory]

I don't know what you mean by 'the debate'. I was responding directly to Zim's assertion that:


That just doesn't follow. How rich our owners are is irrelevant unless they're willing to put their considerable fortune at our disposal as Abramovic has done with Chelsea.

Whether we're making the most of the resources we do have is a different point. Would they deny him? It seems to me they're taking out from the club, not putting in. So I'd say yes, they probably would if Wenger wanted to go mental in the transfer market a la Chelsea or City. I don't think they'd put their money in to do that.

But do you honestly think Wenger has demanded more funding? Persistently each year? Given what Wenger has constantly said about our finances, do you think he's putting a case to them that we need to spend more? It's all well and good fans putting up a defence and explanation for our performances but I don't know if Wenger would agree with the defence.

[Letters]

By "go mental" do you mean not being the only manager in Europe who didn't sign an outfield player because in his crazy little mind he thought this squad was already good enough?

Why is it always pushed to the extreme? We spend nothing because the only alternative would be spending like the chavs and the gypos? Nothing in between? Like a decent midfielder or striker? Would it have been "mental" to go into this season properly prepared to make a serious challenge? And it's not just this season, it's every bloody season. Again, a massive convenience. Coincidental of course.

You don't think our squad enough to finish above Leicester? Our failure this year is not because our squad isn't good enough. Clearly a top striker would help but do you really need that to beat a depleted Utd side or Swansea at home, or Watford in the Cup? Let's not confuse two things. There was a time when the dopers were having a big impact and we couldn't compete (although we could have spent more). But we have spent pretty big in the last few years since the money has been available, our failure this year isn't because of frugality.

[Letters]

But do you honestly think Wenger has demanded more funding? Persistently each year? Given what Wenger has constantly said about our finances, do you think he's putting a case to them that we need to spend more? It's all well and good fans putting up a defence and explanation for our performances but I don't know if Wenger would agree with the defence.

I think Wenger thinks - and I agree with him, actually - that our long term ability to compete shouldn't rely on a sugar-daddy. So while people sneer at the morally superior cup, longer term I'd argue he's mostly taking the right approach.
Which isn't to say he has got everything right and there have been times when I agree he should have spent more.

[Marc Overmars]

By "go mental" do you mean not being the only manager in Europe who didn't sign an outfield player because in his crazy little mind he thought this squad was already good enough?

Why is it always pushed to the extreme? We spend nothing because the only alternative would be spending like the chavs and the gypos? Nothing in between? Like a decent midfielder or striker? Would it have been "mental" to go into this season properly prepared to make a serious challenge? And it's not just this season, it's every bloody season. Again, a massive convenience. Coincidental of course.

Yep. I've never heard any Arsenal fan advocate spending a truck load on whoever the hell is available, that's what City and Chelsea have done in the past and they've left a trail of waste behind. All we've ever wanted is to see is our resources maximised and problem areas in the team addressed before it's too late. Is there a difference between buying no one and buying everyone? Both to me represent incompetence. Though at least with the latter your assets are on the field where they might be able to make a difference, sod all is going to happen if money is sitting in the bank.

Wenger could easily have spent more last summer and in summers gone by, the trouble is he does the work of a Director of Football and a CEO as well. He should not be setting his own criteria on what represents value for money.

[Niall_Quinn]

You don't think our squad enough to finish above Leicester? Our failure this year is not because our squad isn't good enough. Clearly a top striker would help but do you really need that to beat a depleted Utd side or Swansea at home, or Watford in the Cup? Let's not confuse two things. There was a time when the dopers were having a big impact and we couldn't compete (although we could have spent more). But we have spent pretty big in the last few years since the money has been available, our failure this year isn't because of frugality.

First off, I was talking about winning the CL. Something that should be the first priority every season for a club this size. Let's not lose sight of the claims on which the back of a 100% ticket price increase has been built.

As for Leicester, well nobody knew in the summer they'd be top today. Back then we'd have been expecting to be fighting with the chavs, gypos and maybe the mancs. That, in addition to making a proper CL challenge, is what the squad should have been prepared for.

But as it stands, no, it appears we can't compete with Leicester. Not because the squad isn't good enough on paper, except in one key area that everyone except you-know-who easily identified, but because we have a shit manager. He's the reason for the fuck-up. His stupid team selections, non-tactics, negativity, fucked-up subs, crazy excuses and all the rest. Let's not forget he has many more weaknesses than his unwillingness to compete in the transfer market.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think Wenger thinks - and I agree with him, actually - that our long term ability to compete shouldn't rely on a sugar-daddy. So while people sneer at the morally superior cup, longer term I'd argue he's mostly taking the right approach.
Which isn't to say he has got everything right and there have been times when I agree he should have spent more.

An owner who stands to make hundreds of million in growth is not a "sugar daddy" if he kicks some of that back as additional investment. A sugar daddy is somebody who comes to a club that has no fans and then starts pumping in whatever it takes to catapult that club up the table. However, Abramovich and the Arabs are looking less and less like a sugar daddies as the seasons go by. Both clubs have now taken their seat in the top tier and are expanding across the board. They will both reach the stage where if their sugar daddies pulled out they'd sail on under their own steam. Meanwhile we are fucking around with a single lump of coal.

[Power n Glory]

I think Wenger thinks - and I agree with him, actually - that our long term ability to compete shouldn't rely on a sugar-daddy. So while people sneer at the morally superior cup, longer term I'd argue he's mostly taking the right approach.
Which isn't to say he has got everything right and there have been times when I agree he should have spent more.


What about short term? When Danny Fiszman invested £50m into the club it helped get players on to better contracts, brought in key players like Bergkamp, Vieira and Anelka. That wasn't us relying on a sugar daddy and I'm not saying we should. There is a middle ground and I don't see why the pressure is all on the fans to dip into their pockets now. It bothers me that Wenger can speak so much the correlation between success and finances but not make most of all his resources. Besides asking for a cash injection from our billionaires, it's ridiculous that he's not making the most of what he's given, won't push the boat out for more but seems fine with the fans being squeezed and priced out.

[Power n Glory]

Yep. I've never heard any Arsenal fan advocate spending a truck load on whoever the hell is available, that's what City and Chelsea have done in the past and they've left a trail of waste behind. All we've ever wanted is to see is our resources maximised and problem areas in the team addressed before it's too late. Is there a difference between buying no one and buying everyone? Both to me represent incompetence. Though at least with the latter your assets are on the field where they might be able to make a difference, sod all is going to happen if money is sitting in the bank.

Wenger could easily have spent more last summer and in summers gone by, the trouble is he does the work of a Director of Football and a CEO as well. He should not be setting his own criteria on what represents value for money.

Yes. :gp: There has to be a middle ground.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

The way I look at it privately is....how do we compare to our former selves.....you know, the team that looked like Titans and played like it?

wenger's professional pride and arsenal ties should have been working in the fans favour but far too often it has failed to.

The special one though halted his own funeral by getting himself sacked before he could get Chelsea relegated and he deserves a world of stick for being in such a position as letters suggests.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I think it was the finance bloke on a bergkamp wonderland who really showed up some of the flaws of our miser tendencies for what they are. Very illuminating!

[Niall_Quinn]

League Cup - fail
FA Cup - fail
PL - fail
CL - fail
St Totts Day - fail

How much do you think a manager should be paid to achieve that?

[Chippy]

League Cup - fail
FA Cup - fail
PL - fail
CL - fail
St Totts Day - fail

How much do you think a manager should be paid to achieve that?

Erm.... £7m?

[fakeyank]

8 million quid + bonuses

[Chippy]

8 million quid + bonuses

Fuck me! Not bad at all.

[Kano]

Disgraceful. One million pounds seems like a far more sensible figure for managing a football club.

[Niall_Quinn]

Disgraceful. One million pounds seems like a far more sensible figure for managing a football club.

Nothing is the correct answer. Zero.

[Chippy]

Tottenham

I will be a bit nervous if the Scum beat Stoke tomorrow ! I fear Leicester might just crack :ilt:

[selassie]

I will be a bit nervous if the Scum beat Stoke tomorrow ! I fear Leicester might just crack :ilt:

I think those cunts will do it, it's going to be insufferable.

[Power n Glory]

Just looked at the running and I think Spurs will win it. I bloody hope not but Leicester have Utd, Everton and Chelsea to play.

[Marc Overmars]

#pray4stoke.

[selassie]

Just looked at the running and I think Spurs will win it. I bloody hope not but Leicester have Utd, Everton and Chelsea to play.

Yeah can see Leicester collapsing at the end, they have been riding their luck for a few weeks now.

[Gooner23]

Comprehensive win for the spuds tonight :sick:

Really hoping Leicester don't choke now.

[Niall_Quinn]

Moss has been a big help of course. Even Martin Samuel thinks he's a cunt.

[Chippy]

Comprehensive win for the spuds tonight :sick:

Really hoping Leicester don't choke now.
Spurs are scaringly fucking good. They could be a force for years to come. It makes our predicament 100 fucking times worse! Fuck!

[selassie]

Spurs are scaringly fucking good. They could be a force for years to come. It makes our predicament 100 fucking times worse! Fuck!

Yeah pains me to say it but they've looked like the best team in the country for a while now, since January, they have no problem winning anywhere. It's a young team too, sad thing is they will add quality to that squad, I hope Wenger is ready because if he fucks about we'll be miles behind them.

[Xhaka Can’t]

So you're essentially saying we are going to be miles behind them.

[Chippy]

Yeah pains me to say it but they've looked like the best team in the country for a while now, since January, they have no problem winning anywhere. It's a young team too, sad thing is they will add quality to that squad, I hope Wenger is ready because if he fucks about we'll be miles behind them.
We already are my friend.

[selassie]

So you're essentially saying we are going to be miles behind them.

Pretty much, it's sickening watch that lot destroy teams and surpass us, absolutely sickening.

[Chippy]

Pretty much, it's sickening watch that lot destroy teams and surpass us, absolutely sickening.
Can't even bare to watch SSN anymore ! I don't even listen to TalkSpurs anymore.

[Niall_Quinn]

TalkSpurs :wacko:

Why did you listen to it in the first place?

[Letters]

TalkSpurs :wacko:

Why did you listen to it in the first place?

:lol: Chippy :doh:

[selassie]

:lol: Chippy :doh:

His cover has been blown :haha:

[Chippy]

TalkSpurs :wacko:

Why did you listen to it in the first place?
TalkSport. TalkSpurs? See what I did there!! Alan Brazil is a Spud and so is Goughie! It will be sickening tomorrow !

[Chippy]

:lol: Chippy :doh:
Shit! I have not been banned for ten years!
Don't do it letters !!

[Niall_Quinn]

Judge him at the end of the season.

[Kano]

Chippy you should be banned for listening to TalkSport really.

[selassie]

Judge him at the end of the season.

:lol:

[adzzzbatch]

Just been emailed this: https://www.facebook.com/COYSNews/videos/1008030245957259/ <_<

[Bumble]

TalkSport. TalkSpurs? See what I did there!! Alan Brazil is a Spud and so is Goughie! It will be sickening tomorrow !

Although Goughie is also a Barnsley fan and Milton Keynes as well so not a proper fan. I think he is more just a football fan. didn't realise brazil supported spurs thought he would have been United or perhaps Ipswich.

i like listening to talk sport apart from the Collymore bits as cant stand him. its decent listening as long as you don't take things too seriously as it really is only opinion and not always fact.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Chippy you should be banned for listening to TalkSport really.

Last time i listened to Talk Sport, Mike Dicken was still alive

[alexander]

I voted spurs on this when it went up.

Sadly I still think its true.

[Maestro]

Just been emailed this: https://www.facebook.com/COYSNews/videos/1008030245957259/ <_<

that is fuckin hilarious :haha:

[Power n Glory]

that is fuckin hilarious :haha:

:haha:

We're fucked!

[Xhaka Can’t]

that is fuckin hilarious :haha:

:haha: That clip has been the best thing I've seen this season.

[selassie]

that is fuckin hilarious :haha:

:haha: