Match Reaction - Arsenal 1-2 Watford - Wenger Out

[Xhaka Can’t]

IF it's Pelligrini I'm going to burn Letters' house down.

I think he lives in a flat.

[Xhaka Can’t]

To do anything other than in my view is to put your dislike of Wenger above wanting the club to win.

Frankly if you win the league comprised of 38 games you deserve to win it, it's absurd to suggest otherwise.

Leicester will win the league and will be deserving but if they went into meltdown and uncharacteristically we capatalised then it's deserved.

We don't deserve to win it as things stand, but if that unlikely reversal of fortune occurred than of course we'd deserve it.

Exactly.

That is why Leicester are going to win the League.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I guess the problem with you is your a shortermist, you want us to win the title that's fine, what is abundantly clear is however that if we do win the title there isn't a hope Wenger will move on, quite the opposite in fact, so to say you want us to win the title but want to see Wenger gone isn't a logical option.

The way I see it we've been absolutely awful, to win the title whilst playing so poorly and struggling for most of the season would really devalue it for me, the fact it would pretty much guarantee there would be no hope of Wenger going anytime in the near of medium term future would also be a big negative as it's clear the guy can't take us further.

We need change and winning the title in a season when every other top team has struggled and a team who battled relegation last season are our biggest rival would hardly be that great an achievement.

The sad fact is I get no pleasure out of this team, it's disjointed, lacks quality, struggles to score and defend and in any normal season would be nowhere near any major prize, to win it would be a false dawn, I've grown up watching teams winning titles not stumbling to them because everyone else can't perform, in that sense Leicester are by far the most deserving, a small budget, hard work, some clever signings and great tactics and a desire not to be beaten has got them to the top, something barely any other team has demonstrated any of.

Anyone who says they ant us to win the title but want Wenger gone isn't serious about wanting him to go in reality, because that can't and wouldn't happen, in terms of our future not winning it and Wenger going would be far better than Wenger winning it and staying on for another 6 years.

I want him gone because he can't in my view win major trophies, if the unlikely happened and we won it. Literally couldn't give a fuck if he stayed or not, my wanting him gone is predicated on my belief that this almost certainly won't happen.

Winning trophies to me is far, far more important than who the manager is. I'm a pragmatist, I recognise that I have no control over the managers future so it's illogical for me not to want the best under the current set up.

Would I find it unbearable Wenger being given a new contract if he did the impossible? No not really, I don't think it would be especially advisable but I don't think I could want a manager out enough to purposefully want us to lose out on the title.

I think it's an emotional reaction from most who are understandably gutted by the debacle of the last seven games, the difference between them and yourself is that I believe you wanted this to happen even when we were in a more favourable position because as I say your attitude is not conducive to what I would consider someone who supports this club.

If I'm honest i think you'd be better off with a club like Chelsea, I think a club like that probably has fans like you.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Exactly.

That is why Leicester are going to win the League.

I'd agree but I also think it would be ridiculous to suggest that we would somehow be less deserving if they collapsed and we capatalised on that collapse.....an event less likely than Jeremy Corbyn becoming prime minister

[Power n Glory]

Yes, maybe so. Which is why it's good to see Leicester winning a title. If we can't do it, and let's be clear - we really, really can't do it - then we may be seeing the last ever "Small 15" club achieving it. Fitting considering the way the "big" clubs have ruined football. As for Wenger being complicit, you only have to listen to him to figure it out. Judge him by his words and actions. Sky is a private company that will always do what it takes to make a profit, regardless of who is affected or what is ruined in the process. They are doing what corporations do. It's the bastards that invited them in and the greedy animals at the already wealthy clubs, the corrupt swine in the senior positions in the game. Certainly not Wenger's fault alone, far from it, but he's been in there playing his role.

He's supposed to be a football man. Pure football. The fact that he's so complicit and welcomed in this corporate takeover muddies things. This is why my stance on Stan Kronke and ownership is slightly different. He's a vulture and in it for the money. That's the nature of the beast with his type. I don't think he's alone when comes to sports ownership. In fact, in the entertainment business in general, most just want a return of their investment and don't really care for the purity of the game/art or the accolades unless it comes with a cheque. But for a guy like Wenger, it's surprising his thoughts align so perfectly with the owners. I really can't understand why he's so complicit and defends their position instead of the fans.

[Power n Glory]

I want him gone because he can't in my view win major trophies, if the unlikely happened and we won it. Literally couldn't give a fuck if he stayed or not, my wanting him gone is predicated on my belief that this almost certainly won't happen.

Winning trophies to me is far, far more important than who the manager is. I'm a pragmatist, I recognise that I have no control over the managers future so it's illogical for me not to want the best under the current set up.

Would I find it unbearable Wenger being given a new contract if he did the impossible? No not really, I don't think it would be especially advisable but I don't think I could want a manager out enough to purposefully want us to lose out on the title.

I think it's an emotional reaction from most who are understandably gutted by the debacle of the last seven games, the difference between them and yourself is that I believe you wanted this to happen even when we were in a more favourable position because as I say your attitude is not conducive to what I would consider someone who supports this club.

If I'm honest i think you'd be better off with a club like Chelsea, I think a club like that probably has fans like you.

Mate, you need a slap. :lol: Cut the bullshit. We're all Arsenal supporters here and you can't tell a man who he'd be better off supporting. You're out of order.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'd agree but I also think it would be ridiculous to suggest that we would somehow be less deserving if they collapsed and we capatalised on that collapse.....an event less likely than Jeremy Corbyn becoming prime minister

First up, if the banksters can't hold their ponzi scheme together for at least another year, Corbyn winning the election will be a certainty unless somebody even more radical comes out of left field. This is because the traditional establishment placeholders won't stand a chance of picking up votes. This is already happening to some degree, which is why we see Corbyn at the helm in the first place. So the comparison you have drawn is highly unsuitable given the range of possibilities that could unfold.

On the other hand. We are absolutely, 100% guaranteed not to win this title. That was true before the season kicked off, but human comprehension doesn't allow for such stark reality and it all gets clouded with hope and expectation. Forget maths, they can't possibly account for how massive a bunch of bottlers we are. No title. Not a chance. A better comparison would be to say there's exponentially less chance of us winning the title than there is of Jesus descending from heaven, live on BBC, walking on water and transforming the Thames into Chateauneuf du pape.

[Niall_Quinn]

Here's a "quality" newspaper - the Independent (sic)


Arsenal FA Cup exit sparks fighting during filming of Arsenal Fan TV, claim eye-witness reports

Eye-witnesses claim that violence broke out between Arsenal fans during filming for the popular Arsenal Fan TV after the Gunners were dumped out of the FA Cup by Watford on Sunday.

Arsenal Fan TV denied anything happened, stating that it was "so sad when people spread false rumours".

...a short video released on Snapchat appeared to show Arsenal Fan TV regular 'Kenny Ken' involved in an altercation.

No punches appear to get thrown on the video.

Click bait headline, suffixed with disclaimer (so now anything goes), "violence" claimed in first paragraph (80% stop reading at this point) then the anonymous source gets entirely discredited by video testimony nonetheless.

The Independent is also available in a handy tabloid size.

[Munchies]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3492337/Arsene-Wenger-walk-Arsenal-fans-continue-protest-despite-having-backing-owner-Stan-Kroenke.html

Wenger on the front page of DM sport

EXCLUSIVE: Wenger to walk? Protesting fans could prompt Arsenal boss to end 20-year reign

[Munchies]

The club are concerned that Alexis Sanchez (pictured) and Mesut Ozil will not sign new contracts


:wave:

[Kano]

I've read more insightful stuff on here than that pointless garbage.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

First up, if the banksters can't hold their ponzi scheme together for at least another year, Corbyn winning the election will be a certainty unless somebody even more radical comes out of left field. This is because the traditional establishment placeholders won't stand a chance of picking up votes. This is already happening to some degree, which is why we see Corbyn at the helm in the first place. So the comparison you have drawn is highly unsuitable given the range of possibilities that could unfold.

On the other hand. We are absolutely, 100% guaranteed not to win this title. That was true before the season kicked off, but human comprehension doesn't allow for such stark reality and it all gets clouded with hope and expectation. Forget maths, they can't possibly account for how massive a bunch of bottlers we are. No title. Not a chance. A better comparison would be to say there's exponentially less chance of us winning the title than there is of Jesus descending from heaven, live on BBC, walking on water and transforming the Thames into Chateauneuf du pape.

I guarantee you the only eventuality of Corbyn becoming prime minister, is if a) the current government all were revealed to be part of a James Bond Spectre Esque organisation for the purpose of international predatory peadophilia and they all had special nonce rings to identify them as members and b) a nuclear exchange happened between NATO and Russia and the only remaining unaffected areas left in the country were Merseyside and The North east.

Corbyn is at the helm because the membership of the party is a coalition of students, middle class ageing sociology lecturers who never grew up enough to realise that Marxism won't take in a post industrial economy, hysterical idiots who were thrown out of the party under Neil Kinnock, a bunch of Jew haters who misleadingly package their overt racism as an objection over Israel foreign policy and a racket of Islamists.
This isn't a microcosm of the British electorate no matter how much you want it to be.

[Munchies]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdiuG0-WwAASoW-.jpg

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Mate, you need a slap. :lol: Cut the bullshit. We're all Arsenal supporters here and you can't tell a man who he'd be better off supporting. You're out of order.

I'm not telling him anything, I'm advising him where I think he'd be happier.

Whether you think that's out of order is immaterial to me, I don't see someone who appears to delight in Arsenal losing as a fan of this football club.

Manchester City probably show more faith in their managers than would be to Zims taste, so like I say Chelsea is the club for him.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3492337/Arsene-Wenger-walk-Arsenal-fans-continue-protest-despite-having-backing-owner-Stan-Kroenke.html

Wenger on the front page of DM sport

EXCLUSIVE: Wenger to walk? Protesting fans could prompt Arsenal boss to end 20-year reign


So they are just going with this then, as if it is reality?


Fans clashed outside the Emirates following Sunday’s Cup exit and, should the mutiny in the stands get worse, Wenger could do the unthinkable and leave before the end of his contract.

A laugh, until you consider people get their "news" from sources like this. Little wonder.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

It's not even a case of the greater good. It's the thought of more years with Wenger that's putting people off. I want the league title again and I don't know what the heck happens with us if Spurs win it.

It's really a catch 22.

I dunno I agree with MO. I think the lows of this season, regardless of what's possibly to come have inflicted too much emotional pain on too many for this to be dismissed easily. Even the eternal optimists have broken down. Sure we'd enjoy a league win (we'd be foolish not to) but they'll be a majority consensus that Wenger needs to go out on a high (sort of like what people wanted after the FA cup win) instead of sticking around and pushing us into further mediocrity. It's all academic anyway as we'll well and truly blown it and Spurs and Leceister don't look like letting up any time soon.

Sigh it's all just too depressing thinking about. This.year.was.meant.to.be.the.year. :upset::upset:

As for the shit speculation - thought that Chelsea had Simeone locked down for the summer anyway. Not that Wenger's going anywhere. We'll put in a strong run till the end of the season, get close and the usual suspects (board/wenger/players) will release their usual BS statements that we've learnt from our disappointment and that we're ready for next year.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Interesting stat floating on twitter:

Arsenal goals scored by 14 March:
2015/16: 71
14/15: 86
13/14: 78
12/13: 86
11/12: 78
10/11: 104
09/10: 101
08/09: 81
07/08: 92
06/07: 85


Sigh ....

Our defending hasn't been fantastic but by far our big problem is scoring goals. We may still be challenging if we had someone who could put away the half dozen chances we create every game instead of bottling them. When Alexis isn't on form we've got no reliable source of goals.

[Thierrymon]

The club are concerned that Alexis Sanchez (pictured) and Mesut Ozil will not sign new contracts


:wave:

I cant really blame them if true. The shocking lack of ambition repeatedly shown by the club is likely to put off any world class players.

[Letters]

I think he lives in a flat.

It's a maisonette :angry:

[selassie]

The club are concerned that Alexis Sanchez (pictured) and Mesut Ozil will not sign new contracts


:wave:

I think Ozil will leave, Sanchez will most likely stick around if we pay him enough.

[Kano]

One thing's for sure the club has to grow some balls over both of their contracts. We don't need to be dicked around by half-hearted commitment by either of them. Stay and sign or do one.

[selassie]

One thing's for sure the club has to grow some balls over both of their contracts. We don't need to be dicked around by half-hearted commitment by either of them. Stay and sign or do one.

They both have us by the balls, especially Ozil. He can go pretty much anywhere and improve his wage quite significantly so I see no reason why he's going to stick around. Why would he? We lack ambition and don't compete for the big prizes. The fact that Barca and Bayern are sniffing around doesn't bode well, Wenger had to convince him to stay last summer when Bayern came calling, what convincing can he do now?

Sanchez is a slightly different case, of course he would be courted by many clubs if he's on the market but I think we'll be able to tie him down.

Losing either player will set us back, it's not like we'll replace them like for like if at all.

[Kano]

They both have us by the balls, especially Ozil. He can go pretty much anywhere and improve his wage quite significantly so I see no reason why he's going to stick around. Why would he? We lack ambition and don't compete for the big prizes. The fact that Barca and Bayern are sniffing around doesn't bode well, Wenger had to convince him to stay last summer when Bayern came calling, what convincing can he do now?

Sanchez is a slightly different case, of course he would be courted by many clubs if he's on the market but I think we'll be able to tie him down.

Losing either player will set us back, it's not like we'll replace them like for like if at all.

Ozil is definitely the more flaky of the too I’d imagine. Alexis I can see showing a bit more loyalty and signing on. If Ozil doesn’t then we need to ship him on. We don’t’ need another season of ‘will he won’t he’ hanging round the club, then with a year left we get shafted on price. Especially as Wenger will still be at the club, in his last year of contract too. So double the media stress and the fans getting more pent up with the club too.

[Power n Glory]

Ozil is definitely the more flaky of the too I’d imagine. Alexis I can see showing a bit more loyalty and signing on. If Ozil doesn’t then we need to ship him on. We don’t’ need another season of ‘will he won’t he’ hanging round the club, then with a year left we get shafted on price. Especially as Wenger will still be at the club, in his last year of contract too. So double the media stress and the fans getting more pent up with the club too.

I think the fact that Wenger may leave soon makes it more likely they'll go unless we sort things out quickly. I doubt they'll sign a new deal unless they know which manager is coming in to replace him.

[selassie]

Ozil is definitely the more flaky of the too I’d imagine. Alexis I can see showing a bit more loyalty and signing on. If Ozil doesn’t then we need to ship him on. We don’t’ need another season of ‘will he won’t he’ hanging round the club, then with a year left we get shafted on price. Especially as Wenger will still be at the club, in his last year of contract too. So double the media stress and the fans getting more pent up with the club too.

Yep, Wenger has a lot of work to do in the summer, I'd imagine both of them will be looking for the club to show some ambition in the market otherwise they'll be off. Can see the negotiations getting very messy and them dragging on.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yep, Wenger has a lot of work to do in the summer, I'd imagine both of them will be looking for the club to show some ambition in the market otherwise they'll be off. Can see the negotiations getting very messy and them dragging on.

There's a first time for everything.

[IBK]

I think the fact that Wenger may leave soon makes it more likely they'll go unless we sort things out quickly. I doubt they'll sign a new deal unless they know which manager is coming in to replace him.

This is the irony. Undoubtedly, Wenger (and his promises?) were the reason why both players joined us. His leaving will make it more likely that both players will leave - as its difficult to see what 'name' would convince them that Wenger going wouldn't simply mean another protracted rebuilding period. Guardiola would have done but the fact is that there are few managers of his stature/track record around. Would Conte have the same effect, for example?

I think it's become clear why the addition of 3 genuinely world class players joining us has not pushed us on - and that's because Wenger trusted his existing players to improve to be able to play the way he visualises the game, but instead they are either simply not good enough or have failed to improve...

[Power n Glory]

This is the irony. Undoubtedly, Wenger (and his promises?) were the reason why both players joined us. His leaving will make it more likely that both players will leave - as its difficult to see what 'name' would convince them that Wenger going wouldn't simply mean another protracted rebuilding period. Guardiola would have done but the fact is that there are few managers of his stature/track record around. Would Conte have the same effect, for example?

I think it's become clear why the addition of 3 genuinely world class players joining us has not pushed us on - and that's because Wenger trusted his existing players to improve to be able to play the way he visualises the game, but instead they are either simply not good enough or have failed to improve...

I think it’s the uncertainty that causes the main issue. Under the current circumstances, I don’t see them staying or signing new deals because Wenger’s future is up in the air. I’m not saying they’re staying because of him because it’s more likely they’ll leave because of him if he sticks around long enough. If we sign a manager with a good rep and they fit into his plans, they’re more likely to stay.

[selassie]

There's a first time for everything.

:lol:

[IBK]

I think it’s the uncertainty that causes the main issue. Under the current circumstances, I don’t see them staying or signing new deals because Wenger’s future is up in the air. I’m not saying they’re staying because of him because it’s more likely they’ll leave because of him if he sticks around long enough. If we sign a manager with a good rep and they fit into his plans, they’re more likely to stay.

Nope I don't think they'll stay because of Wenger. They probably came because of him, though...

It is an issue (another one). Our underperforming players will stay because they are on a good thing. Difficult to see how we will continue to sign worldies while we are clearly not on an upward trajectory, though. Wenger's refusal to committ fully in the transfer market over the past couple of seasons will come home to bite us.

[selassie]

Nope I don't think they'll stay because of Wenger. They probably came because of him, though...

It is an issue (another one). Our underperforming players will stay because they are on a good thing. Difficult to see how we will continue to sign worldies while we are clearly not on an upward trajectory, though. Wenger's refusal to committ fully in the transfer market over the past couple of seasons will come home to bite us.

This is what really irks me about Wenger and his transfer policy, the fact he doesn't act has long term consequences on the team and leads to this perpetual rebuilding cycle.

It's totally unnecessary too.

[Kano]

Nope I don't think they'll stay because of Wenger. They probably came because of him, though...

It is an issue (another one). Our underperforming players will stay because they are on a good thing. Difficult to see how we will continue to sign worldies while we are clearly not on an upward trajectory, though. Wenger's refusal to committ fully in the transfer market over the past couple of seasons will come home to bite us.
We have to remember there is a difference between our views as fans and what a player sees in a manager and a club. You make a good point that both players probably came largely because of Wenger. When they signed we were still renowned as fourth place kings and hadn't won a thing for a decade. So Wenger could've made all the promises in the world about progression, as he or any other manager or person in our club would do at the end of the season but the bares bones of our status as a club was the same, if not a little worse in terms of tangible success.

Of course, they didn't come here to just win the FA Cup and play group stages of the Champions League but their status as the big guys in the team and potential wage rises all come into play too. These players don't think like us trapped in their bubble and their connection with what we want or believe are rarely the same thing. My concern is more to do with the club being in control given the contract situations with two years left for them. Historically we've been awful at managing these situations and if things are more financialy sound, then we shouldn't have to suffer the same problems. The reality may well prove to be different though.

[Power n Glory]

Nope I don't think they'll stay because of Wenger. They probably came because of him, though...

It is an issue (another one). Our underperforming players will stay because they are on a good thing. Difficult to see how we will continue to sign worldies while we are clearly not on an upward trajectory, though. Wenger's refusal to committ fully in the transfer market over the past couple of seasons will come home to bite us.

They definitely came because of him. I'm guessing he hasn't lived up to the billing. I still think about Wenger saying Ozil needs to score more goals and Ozil firing back in the German press saying he doesn't. That's open defiance to his coaching and I've never seen that before.

The underperformers have no choice but to stay with those mouth watering wages. Walcott should really fear for his career after Wenger. I can't see anyone being patient with him on the wing or giving him a chance to play as striker if he doesn't hit the ground running. He's not a kid anymore.

[IBK]

We have to remember there is a difference between our views as fans and what a player sees in a manager and a club. You make a good point that both players probably came largely because of Wenger. When they signed we were still renowned as fourth place kings and hadn't won a thing for a decade. So Wenger could've made all the promises in the world about progression, as he or any other manager or person in our club would do at the end of the season but the bares bones of our status as a club was the same, if not a little worse in terms of tangible success.

Of course, they didn't come here to just win the FA Cup and play group stages of the Champions League but their status as the big guys in the team and potential wage rises all come into play too. These players don't think like us trapped in their bubble and their connection with what we want or believe are rarely the same thing. My concern is more to do with the club being in control given the contract situations with two years left for them. Historically we've been awful at managing these situations and if things are more financialy sound, then we shouldn't have to suffer the same problems. The reality may well prove to be different though.

Yes - we are a club that seems to be dictated to by players - not just contract wise but in terms of our best players questioning what Arsenal is going to do for them rather than what they can do for the club. Ozil's only really started to perform this season, and Alexis has been inconsistent (as his history tells us he is prone to do). Mind you there's one thing that tends to change this (universal) approach - and that's winning stuff.

[Özim]

I want him gone because he can't in my view win major trophies, if the unlikely happened and we won it. Literally couldn't give a fuck if he stayed or not, my wanting him gone is predicated on my belief that this almost certainly won't happen.

Winning trophies to me is far, far more important than who the manager is. I'm a pragmatist, I recognise that I have no control over the managers future so it's illogical for me not to want the best under the current set up.

Would I find it unbearable Wenger being given a new contract if he did the impossible? No not really, I don't think it would be especially advisable but I don't think I could want a manager out enough to purposefully want us to lose out on the title.

I think it's an emotional reaction from most who are understandably gutted by the debacle of the last seven games, the difference between them and yourself is that I believe you wanted this to happen even when we were in a more favourable position because as I say your attitude is not conducive to what I would consider someone who supports this club.

If I'm honest i think you'd be better off with a club like Chelsea, I think a club like that probably has fans like you.

Like I said you're a shortermist, some might argue a plastic (that's what they generally call fans that only care about winning and nothing else, that's not what I call them).

As far as control over whether the manager stays, that's partly true because we've seen that our fan base won't stop fillinf the stadium, with that in mind why would they bother changing, their pockets are being lined by the fans, why would they care what they think, they probably have a good laugh about it over Champagne and Caviar tbh and why not.

A lot of people would find it unbearable to see the manager sign a new contract simply because of the way the guy handles himself, the way he won't sign players, is tactically naive, is patronising to the fans, is blinkered in his approach and is very much one of the reasons this club has stagnated. It was pretty clear to most that this collapse was just a matter of time, it's happened almost every season for the past 10 years and to be honest you'd have to be pretty blinkered to think it wouldn't again based on our record, what's happened is no surprise, neither is the way fans like you get brainwashed into thinking it will be different this time, you see the same thing happen time and time again and yet you still believe.

Gutted from the last 10 games.....really? This has been happening for 10 years, have you been daydreaming all that time?

Thanks for your interest in my affairs.....but your view is immaterial to me.

[Letters]

Seriously? You're picking someone else up for only caring about trophies (not that I think HCZ is like that).
You couldn't have made it clearer on here that that's all you care about although now you're so bitter about Wenger you'd rather we don't win them.
:rolleyes:

[Power n Glory]

Seriously? You're picking someone else up for only caring about trophies (not that I think HCZ is like that).
You couldn't have made it clearer on here that that's all you care about although now you're so bitter about Wenger you'd rather we don't win them.
:rolleyes:


Like I said you're a shortermist, some might argue a plastic (that's what they generally call fans that only care about winning and nothing else, that's not what I call them).

:doh: Read the above again.

[Letters]

And here comes PnG, running as fast as he can like Roy Keane to a referee to disagree with me about something :lol:
Textbook.

[Power n Glory]

And here comes PnG, running as fast as he can like Roy Keane to a referee to disagree with me about something :lol:
Textbook.

It's not even a disagreement on this. It's your comprehension skills. :lol:

It's a good point raised in fact. Say it's not Wenger in question. Say it's Stan Kronke. Would you be happy for him to remain owner of the club if we won the title this year?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Like I said you're a shortermist, some might argue a plastic (that's what they generally call fans that only care about winning and nothing else, that's not what I call them).

As far as control over whether the manager stays, that's partly true because we've seen that our fan base won't stop fillinf the stadium, with that in mind why would they bother changing, their pockets are being lined by the fans, why would they care what they think, they probably have a good laugh about it over Champagne and Caviar tbh and why not.

A lot of people would find it unbearable to see the manager sign a new contract simply because of the way the guy handles himself, the way he won't sign players, is tactically naive, is patronising to the fans, is blinkered in his approach and is very much one of the reasons this club has stagnated. It was pretty clear to most that this collapse was just a matter of time, it's happened almost every season for the past 10 years and to be honest you'd have to be pretty blinkered to think it wouldn't again based on our record, what's happened is no surprise, neither is the way fans like you get brainwashed into thinking it will be different this time, you see the same thing happen time and time again and yet you still believe.

Gutted from the last 10 games.....really? This has been happening for 10 years, have you been daydreaming all that time?

Thanks for your interest in my affairs.....but your view is immaterial to me.


No a plastic fan is someone who only supports a team because that team is winning and will abandon them as soon as they don't win.

If you're not gutted it means you don't care, no one is arguing it's not predictable but as I've said whilst we have no leverage over who the manager is the only recourse is to hope for the best.

You ultimately fail to understand that distinction, it's not deluded belief that things will change its having no alternative but to hope it will change. Because to not support and want the team to win every game regardless of whether you think they can win is the only option available to someone who supports a football club.

The only issue I have in regards to wanting Kroenke out is that the alternative is Usmanov.

Saying you're looking at the bigger picture changes nothing, if you don't want the team to win you are not a fan. To try and dress it up like you're a gritty realist doesn't wash with me, if you are not emotionally invested in this club even if you despise the manager than I don't see why you're a fan.

It really is that simple, for future reference I believe the nearest tube station to Stamford bridge is Fulham Broadway.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Seriously? You're picking someone else up for only caring about trophies (not that I think HCZ is like that).
You couldn't have made it clearer on here that that's all you care about although now you're so bitter about Wenger you'd rather we don't win them.
:rolleyes:

The primary concern of a supporter of a football club is to desire that your team has glory - silverware

It takes precedence in most respects but there are exceptions, if I thought Usmanov was the only guarantee of major silverware I still wouldn't want him owning the club because some things come at too high a price.

I don't say this as someone with any love of Stan Kroenke, I think the guys a total arsehole and represents the worst element of sport as a business.

I despise David Dein for bringing both Kroenke and Usmanov anywhere near the club.

[Marc Overmars]

Dein was a hugely influential figure for us but he cocked up massively with those 2 bloodsuckers. Nothing wrong with seeking outside investment but he probably should have done more homework.

[Power n Glory]

The primary concern of a supporter of a football club is to desire that your team has glory - silverware

It takes precedence in most respects but there are exceptions, if I thought Usmanov was the only guarantee of major silverware I still wouldn't want him owning the club because some things come at too high a price.

I don't say this as someone with any love of Stan Kroenke, I think the guys a total arsehole and represents the worst element of sport as a business.

I despise David Dein for bringing both Kroenke and Usmanov anywhere near the club.

Exactly. That's your threshold. I'm not comparing Wenger to Usmanov or Stan...closer to home would be another manager. Say it was Mourinho in charge and you couldn't stand the guy to the point you're losing interest in watching us play?

I've heard a few people say they would stop supporting us if Mourinho came on board even if he won us trophies so it's really not as clear cut as you make it.

[Özim]

Seriously? You're picking someone else up for only caring about trophies (not that I think HCZ is like that).
You couldn't have made it clearer on here that that's all you care about although now you're so bitter about Wenger you'd rather we don't win them.
:rolleyes:

Really, I think I made it clear that winning is important but that basically the way Wenger doesn't things isn't condusive to this and that I would feel differently if he was doing the best he could do, which he clearly doesn't.

Obviously I want my club to win (who wouldn't), but I've stated numerous times I wanted to see obvious progress and signs that the manager understands what that is.

I believe I've also stated Wenger kills any hope, because everything is so predictable, having a manager who can upset the odds and potentially achieve something would be far more rewarding even if we don't all the time.

Your take is that we have been progressing and you've made all the excuses on the sun (much like Wenger) and look where we are now over 10 years on, nowhere and going backwards, had we got rid a while back we'd be far far better off in all likelyness and might actually enjoy unpredtictable seasons.

[Kano]

Dein was a hugely influential figure for us but he cocked up massively with those 2 bloodsuckers. Nothing wrong with seeking outside investment but he probably should have done more homework.
Once is a fuck up, twice indicates something more sinister.

He introduced Kroenke hoping to sell out to him but Kroenke played the long game at first, taking up the ITV shares. Then Usmanov chubbed along with £75m and that was that.

[Power n Glory]

Dein was a hugely influential figure for us but he cocked up massively with those 2 bloodsuckers. Nothing wrong with seeking outside investment but he probably should have done more homework.


Desperate measures. I still wonder what part Dein plays at the club. He's not on the Board obviously but he still comes to games and I can't imagine he's been cut off from Wenger. They must still talk and exchange ideas, right?

[IBK]

Dein was a hugely influential figure for us but he cocked up massively with those 2 bloodsuckers. Nothing wrong with seeking outside investment but he probably should have done more homework.

I have a certain amount of sympathy with Dein and the rest of the board for looking at outside 'investment' initially at the time when Kroenke was brought on board. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and its easy to see the mistakes that were made now. But at the time, I think that Dein was mostly naive and too hasty. Let's remember that he originally introduced Kroenke to the club, and only later sold his shares to Usmanov when he fell out with the rest of the board. Dein clearly felt that the original intention of becoming self-sustaining was in danger of being hijacked with the increasing trend of billionaire owners. Whether his play for Usmanov was because, too late, he saw that Kroenke was not going to invest in the club via the playing side maybe a matter of record (although I haven't looked), but what is for sure is that the Kroenke/Usmanov situation has arisen as the result of a divided board - the rest of whom backed Kroenke mostly as a result of the dispute with Dein. It seems to me that in doing this, they shackled us with an owner with a business model that did not include footballing success.

What I believe in hindsight, however, is that Dein was ambitious for the club, and despite his cock up I judge him less harshly than the others who by the time push came to shove should have seen Kroenke's modus operandi, and yet have left us with the absurd situation where together our owners trump everyone but Citeh in terms of wealth, yet will not invest a penny to try to lead us to significant silverware.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Exactly. That's your threshold. I'm not comparing Wenger to Usmanov or Stan...closer to home would be another manager. Say it was Mourinho in charge and you couldn't stand the guy to the point you're losing interest in watching us play?

I've heard a few people say they would stop supporting us if Mourinho came on board even if he won us trophies so it's really not as clear cut as you make it.

It's clear cut to me, I loathe Mourinho, all his personality traits point to clinical narcaccism a malady that effects Donald Trump....it's a serious personallty disorder.

But yes even with that vile midget in charge id still want us to win games.

What Mourinho isn't however is a criminal human rights abuser, unless he's done a good job of covering his tracks he hasn't raped a girl either and used money to have the case thrown out.....the same cannot be said of Alisher Usmanov.

I would in that instance question whether I could personally continue to support the club, and in that respect I would no longer consider myself a fan.

[Özim]

No a plastic fan is someone who only supports a team because that team is winning and will abandon them as soon as they don't win.

If you're not gutted it means you don't care, no one is arguing it's not predictable but as I've said whilst we have no leverage over who the manager is the only recourse is to hope for the best.

You ultimately fail to understand that distinction, it's not deluded belief that things will change its having no alternative but to hope it will change. Because to not support and want the team to win every game regardless of whether you think they can win is the only option available to someone who supports a football club.

The only issue I have in regards to wanting Kroenke out is that the alternative is Usmanov.

Saying you're looking at the bigger picture changes nothing, if you don't want the team to win you are not a fan. To try and dress it up like you're a gritty realist doesn't wash with me, if you are not emotionally invested in this club even if you despise the manager than I don't see why you're a fan.

It really is that simple, for future reference I believe the nearest tube station to Stamford bridge is Fulham Broadway.

You want to believe there's no alternative, that's nonsense of course there is it's just that you've been brainwashed into thinking there isn't because that's what the club wants you to think.

IMO to want this man to stay on at the club is not being a supporter at all, he's bad for the club as he's proven over a decade, he's turned us into also rans, Europe's biggest joke and in turn instead of putting football first he prioritises finances, what kinda of football man does this and what kind of football fan supports this?

Like I said your a shortermist, short term imaginary success is what you aspire to see, because there is not going to be any short term real success if you've been watching what's happened in the last 10 years and have any common sense, the only way you're going to see success on the pitch is if we see change and that includes that changing the man you feel you are indifferent about. 10 years of the same thing and you still believe things will change, that is deluded I'm afraid, any way you look at it, there is no hope it's just lies and a delusional belief we can succeed.

If like me you realise that we have no hope of winning, you're not surprised or disappointed when it happens, indeed you realise change is the only thing that can change this losing cycle, not some phantom belief that things that have never changed in the last 10 years will change.

I guess seeing as you believe there's hope we can succeed, do you also believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy?

[Özim]

I have a certain amount of sympathy with Dein and the rest of the board for looking at outside 'investment' initially at the time when Kroenke was brought on board. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and its easy to see the mistakes that were made now. But at the time, I think that Dein was mostly naive and too hasty. Let's remember that he originally introduced Kroenke to the club, and only later sold his shares to Usmanov when he fell out with the rest of the board. Dein clearly felt that the original intention of becoming self-sustaining was in danger of being hijacked with the increasing trend of billionaire owners. Whether his play for Usmanov was because, too late, he saw that Kroenke was not going to invest in the club via the playing side maybe a matter of record (although I haven't looked), but what is for sure is that the Kroenke/Usmanov situation has arisen as the result of a divided board - the rest of whom backed Kroenke mostly as a result of the dispute with Dein. It seems to me that in doing this, they shackled us with an owner with a business model that did not include footballing success.

What I believe in hindsight, however, is that Dein was ambitious for the club, and despite his cock up I judge him less harshly than the others who by the time push came to shove should have seen Kroenke's modus operandi, and yet have left us with the absurd situation where together our owners trump everyone but Citeh in terms of wealth, yet will not invest a penny to try to lead us to significant silverware.

Totally agree, Dein loved Arsenal and was ambitious and wanted to make us compete with the best in the world, he was thrown and and this is what happened.

Getting rid of Dein was a big mistake, I largely agree he might have been hasty but utlimately he looked ahead and realised having a rick owner would be the norm.

[Letters]

Your take is that we have been progressing
No, it isn't.

[selassie]

I have a certain amount of sympathy with Dein and the rest of the board for looking at outside 'investment' initially at the time when Kroenke was brought on board. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and its easy to see the mistakes that were made now. But at the time, I think that Dein was mostly naive and too hasty. Let's remember that he originally introduced Kroenke to the club, and only later sold his shares to Usmanov when he fell out with the rest of the board. Dein clearly felt that the original intention of becoming self-sustaining was in danger of being hijacked with the increasing trend of billionaire owners. Whether his play for Usmanov was because, too late, he saw that Kroenke was not going to invest in the club via the playing side maybe a matter of record (although I haven't looked), but what is for sure is that the Kroenke/Usmanov situation has arisen as the result of a divided board - the rest of whom backed Kroenke mostly as a result of the dispute with Dein. It seems to me that in doing this, they shackled us with an owner with a business model that did not include footballing success.

What I believe in hindsight, however, is that Dein was ambitious for the club, and despite his cock up I judge him less harshly than the others who by the time push came to shove should have seen Kroenke's modus operandi, and yet have left us with the absurd situation where together our owners trump everyone but Citeh in terms of wealth, yet will not invest a penny to try to lead us to significant silverware.

Yep I go with this, I have sympathy for Dein too, he did a lot of good work when he was at the club and he was pretty much the only guy on board who had Wenger in check. Dein most definitely cocked up but his ambitions and drive were always with the club in mind, he genuinely wanted us to evolve into a super power.

[Özim]

No, it isn't.

Well yes it is you've been saying so all along.

[Letters]

Making stuff up :bow:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You want to believe there's no alternative, that's nonsense of course there is it's just that you've been brainwashed into thinking there isn't because that's what the club wants you to think.

IMO to want this man to stay on at the club is not being a supporter at all, he's bad for the club as he's proven over a decade, he's turned us into also rans, Europe's biggest joke and in turn instead of putting football first he prioritises finances, what kinda of football man does this and what kind of football fan supports this?

Like I said your a shortermist, short term imaginary success is what you aspire to see, because there is not going to be any short term real success if you've been watching what's happened in the last 10 years and have any common sense, the only way you're going to see success on the pitch is if we see change and that includes that changing the man you feel you are indifferent about. 10 years of the same thing and you still believe things will change, that is deluded I'm afraid, any way you look at it, there is no hope it's just lies and a delusional belief we can succeed.

If like me you realise that we have no hope of winning, you're not surprised or disappointed when it happens, indeed you realise change is the only thing that can change this losing cycle, not some phantom belief that things that have never changed in the last 10 years will change.

I guess seeing as you believe there's hope we can succeed, do you also believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy?


Is there any point having a discussion with someone who doesn't respond to what I've said only what he thinks I've said

At what point have I said there's no better alternative to Wenger?. The point as well you know, is that you and I are powerless in bringing about that alternative.

No a supporter is someone who wants the team to win, there is no caveat involved.

I don't want Wenger to stay because I don't believe he can deliver major silverware and the fact that he hasn't this season is gutting because even though it's not a surprise, only someone who isn't a fan can be happy with his club getting poor results irrrespective of who the manager is.

And really? You are trying to argue that the only true fans of the clubs are those who want it to lose so Wenger goes.

I'd love to see you trying to justify that to season ticket holders

Anyway Fulham Broadway is on the district line and I believe it's within walking distance to Stamford Bridge

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

End of the day Zim, you and I both think the club can't progress under Wenger

The difference is I don't hope the team lose games in the vain hope that the club will dispense with him.

Do you really see the club getting rid of Wenger end of the season??...so essentially your delight in our failure will prove to be in vain anyway.

[Globalgunner]

End of the day Zim, you and I both think the club can't progress under Wenger

The difference is I don't hope the team lose games in the vain hope that the club will dispense with him.

Do you really see the club getting rid of Wenger end of the season??...so essentially your delight in our failure will prove to be in vain anyway.

But as Zim pointed out wanting Wenger out and wanting us to win most games are two incompatible concepts. Wengers gambit is simply to win enough games to guarantee 4th place and thus guarantee him a job. Dropping out of the CL and out of contention for excuses is the only way to get rid of the fraud. Wanting that is not inconsistent with wanting the best for the club long term.
Its pretty obvious to me anyway.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But if you want to insist that I'm brainwashed pro Wenger I can always copy and paste you two blogs I wrote about him, one dated in 2011 and one in 2013.

[Letters]

Wengers gambit is simply to win enough games to guarantee 4th place and thus guarantee him a job.
Of course it isn't.
I think we've all come to the agreement that Wenger is no longer able to push us on but it's an inability, not a lack of interest in finishing no higher than 3rd.
Why wouldn't he want to push on and win the title? Especially this year when it was there for the taking.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But as Zim pointed out wanting Wenger out and wanting us to win most games are two incompatible concepts. Wengers gambit is simply to win enough games to guarantee 4th place and thus guarantee him a job. Dropping out of the CL and out of contention for excuses is the only way to get rid of the fraud. Wanting that is not inconsistent with wanting the best for the club long term.
Its pretty obvious to me anyway.

Again I invite you to make that argument to the thousands of fans who go to games week in, week out and tell them they were wrong to want the team to win games.

As I point out again and again and again, we have no leverage over the manager. The only way he does not choose his own departure is if the club enters the same situation Chelsea did under Mourinho.

Do you really want us to fall that hard...do you think that benefits the club?

[Globalgunner]

Of course it isn't.
I think we've all come to the agreement that Wenger is no longer able to push us on but it's an inability, not a lack of interest in finishing no higher than 3rd.
Why wouldn't he want to push on and win the title? Especially this year when it was there for the taking.

I think thats what the journos were asking him, then he got up in a huff. Beats me too

[Globalgunner]

Again I invite you to make that argument to the thousands of fans who go to games week in, week out and tell them they were wrong to want the team to win games.

As I point out again and again and again, we have no leverage over the manager. The only way he does not choose his own departure is if the club enters the same situation Chelsea did under Mourinho.

Do you really want us to fall that hard...do you think that benefits the club?

Do you take this impotency to all other aspects of your life. Do you for instance just vote the same party in everytime because it doent matter anyway. Or do you stop and think what is best for your kids and their kids?.

Wenger relies on people like you to perpetuate his averageness. 10 years and you still havent seen your way clear
Leave the other fans out of it. You tell me what you think YOU should do to change the cycle at Arsenal. watching tripe football by badly coached players is not my cup of tea. Not for life anyway
As they say, Be the change that you want to see.

[Letters]

Zim is an armchair fan. And there's nothing wrong with that, I'm one of those now.
But he is only interested in trophies - the whole nonsense about the "thoroughly enjoyable" 92/93 season shows that. I had a season ticket that year and it was mostly miserable, yes the end was good but a season lasts a long time and most of it was abject.
On the 7th November 1992 we beat Coventry, the end of a good run. We didn't win a league game again until 16th January (P8 W0 D3 L5).
For the rest of the league season, 27 games, we won just 6, drew 9 and lost 12.
Let me just repeat that. We won 6 out of 27 league games. Six! :lol: Can you imagine this place if we had that kind of season now?!
It was pathetic, frankly, this was only 2 seasons after we'd been champions, losing only one game. Even the season before we'd finished 4th.
And yet Zim thorougly enjoyed it :shrug:
Why? Because he didn't have to sit through most of it and we got a couple of trophies at the end of it, somehow.

Now he's so bitter about Wenger though he actually hopes we don't win anything although it's a strange logic because we'll almost certainly finish top 4 anyway, he'll have met the board's target so he'll stay on anyway - why not win the league if we can? Which we can't, obviously.

As for the assertion that I think we're progressing. No, we've stagnated. Many have said Wenger has us in decline. He doesn't. We have neither progressed not declined in the last 10 years, there have been some promising signs but ultimately this season shows that there's been no real progress. I'll admit that the last couple of years I have seen some signs for hope. I've been over those endlessly. This season we needed to push on and win the title - or at least challenge strongly - and we haven't.

[Power n Glory]

This whole debate is a core example of why Wenger staying on is causing damage to the club. We really shouldn't be telling each other to support other clubs or we're the responsible for Wenger staying on. Internet spats aren't bad but I can see this playing out at the stadium. It makes us look bad.

[Kano]

But as Zim pointed out wanting Wenger out and wanting us to win most games are two incompatible concepts. Wengers gambit is simply to win enough games to guarantee 4th place and thus guarantee him a job. Dropping out of the CL and out of contention for excuses is the only way to get rid of the fraud. Wanting that is not inconsistent with wanting the best for the club long term.
Its pretty obvious to me anyway.
Wenger staying top four to keep his job is a fallacy, a niave stance to take considering the owner of this club. With the TV money coming in, Chumps League money is small fry, why else do you think clubs are looking beyond the next TV deal at a Euro League? Our CL earnings last year of £20m is a fifth of what the club finishing bottom of next seasons PL will earn. The owner isn't in this industry to win championships remember.

[selassie]

Of course it isn't.
I think we've all come to the agreement that Wenger is no longer able to push us on but it's an inability, not a lack of interest in finishing no higher than 3rd.
Why wouldn't he want to push on and win the title? Especially this year when it was there for the taking.

Publicly Wenger gives us the belief that he's in it to win it and for obvious reasons but privately top 4 security is his remit, it's his safety net and the reason to why he makes comments such as "my boss is happy with my performance" blah blah.

Of course Wenger no doubt likes winning, everyone likes to win but I don't think he's that bothered if he doesn't win, why would he be? His boss has come out this week and confirmed that he doesn't care for trophies, why should Wenger?

Wenger clearly isn't doing enough for someone who has the interest of winning at heart, he would be doing a hell of a lot more if he really cared and I'm not just talking about his transfer policy.

[Letters]

Top 4 is the board's minimum expectation of him, he obviously is bothered if he doesn't win - just look at the way he sulks when we don't.
I saw an interview with Dein where he said that they have dinner after every home game unless we lost because if that has happened he's no company.
He's clearly bothered, it's a lack of ability to push us any further, not an unwillingness to.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

This whole debate is a core example of why Wenger staying on is causing damage to the club. We really shouldn't be telling each other to support other clubs or we're the responsible for Wenger staying on. Internet spats aren't bad but I can see this playing out at the stadium. It makes us look bad.

Like I say yesterday the only people that have altercations in public are the people who will do so with almost any justification no matter how scant.

People can tell me I'm responsible for Wenger staying if they want, the burden of proof is all on them.

I believe by definition that wanting the team to lose defies the definition of supporter.

[Letters]

Wenger staying top four to keep his job is a fallacy.
I'd say it's a theory more than a fallacy. He's never been sacked, he's always kept us in the top 4. I think if we'd dropped into mid-table (as many predicted we would) he'd have gone, but given that we never have it's impossible to know for sure.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Publicly Wenger gives us the belief that he's in it to win it and for obvious reasons but privately top 4 security is his remit, it's his safety net and the reason to why he makes comments such as "my boss is happy with my performance" blah blah.

Of course Wenger no doubt likes winning, everyone likes to win but I don't think he's that bothered if he doesn't win, why would he be? His boss has come out this week and confirmed that he doesn't care for trophies, why should Wenger?

Wenger clearly isn't doing enough for someone who has the interest of winning at heart, he would be doing a hell of a lot more if he really cared and I'm not just talking about his transfer policy.


You make that assertion because of frustration at Wengers decision making which is astonishingly counter intuitive

Questioning his ability is one thing, it's abundantly clear that he doesn't have what it takes....but there is no evidence to suppose that someone who has won three league titles has no desire to win anything else.

Do you look at Wenger as someone fixated with money, because If he was it stands to reason he could have left Arsenal in 2004 for Real Madrid and added an extra decimal to his wages.

[Kano]

I'd say it's a theory more than a fallacy. He's never been sacked, he's always kept us in the top 4. I think if we'd dropped into mid-table (as many predicted we would) he'd have gone, but given that we never have it's impossible to know for sure.
I don't think he would at all. The board would back him for at least a season or two more - he has a job for as long as he wants it. He will decide when he leaves, no-one else. Partly because the time spent here as manager allows that and partly because they have no-one else around with a football brain. And when the board's goal is money, the stadium would still be full, merchandise rolling, TV money, what is their motivation for sacking the manager? There isn't any, if the general belief is they are only here on the rob. And Kroenke's comments on the weekend only seem to clarify that. He'll go upstairs after anyway, so his dealings with the club won't end at management stage.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Do you take this impotency to all other aspects of your life. Do you for instance just vote the same party in everytime because it doent matter anyway. Or do you stop and think what is best for your kids and their kids?.

Wenger relies on people like you to perpetuate his averageness. 10 years and you still havent seen your way clear
Leave the other fans out of it. You tell me what you think YOU should do to change the cycle at Arsenal. watching tripe football by badly coached players is not my cup of tea. Not for life anyway
As they say, Be the change that you want to see.

That and the thousands of fans who go to the Emirates week in, week out. Those absolute collaborating traitors deserve to be shot when the revolution comes.

The voting comparison is facile, there is no option to vote for change, if Wenger was subject to a referendum of the fans I'd have been more inclined to vote yes (to him going) than no most times from 2011 onwards but no such option exists binding or not.

[Letters]

We're both speculating but if we fell out of the top 4 for more than a season we'd not be in the CL, we'd not be able to attract players like Ozil and Sanchez and it's hard to get back up there. Witness how much Utd have spent to try and buy there way back in and they still might fall short. Money and top 4 are correlated so for that reason alone I think he'd have gone had we dropped into mid-table as many thought we would under Wenger.

[Kano]

We're both speculating but if we fell out of the top 4 for more than a season we'd not be in the CL, we'd not be able to attract players like Ozil and Sanchez and it's hard to get back up there. Witness how much Utd have spent to try and buy there way back in and they still might fall short. Money and top 4 are correlated so for that reason alone I think he'd have gone had we dropped into mid-table as many thought we would under Wenger.

With the new TV money coming, there will not be a shortage of that all. Every club owner has hit the big time with this bonanza coming and it won't stop there with cashflow. Leicester and Spurs have shown that you don't need to buy superstars to win really compete and a club like Arsenal with its reputation and history will always have a shout at landing big names - as long as we are willing to spend the dough that is.

[Letters]

OK, but that is a new deal. Back in the day the CL money was very important. I think he'd have gone had we dropped out of the top 4 for any length of time.
We'll never know of course because Wenger has kept us in the top 4.
Wenger :bow:



:run:

[Power n Glory]

Like I say yesterday the only people that have altercations in public are the people who will do so with almost any justification no matter how scant.

People can tell me I'm responsible for Wenger staying if they want, the burden of proof is all on them.

I believe by definition that wanting the team to lose defies the definition of supporter.

I don’t think many want us to lose or take joy in watching us lose. It’s a steady decline. Once your past the point of going mental about losses, feeling indifferent about them or even finding them comical, it gets to a point where you just hope the manager walks or gets fired. We used to debate on GW all the time about player performances but once you’ve booed a player off the pitch and realise it’s not really that’s player’s fault, the focus ends up on the man that picks him constantly. It’s been a slow decline to get to this point. I don’t think anyone would choose this.

[Letters]

I don't think many do either, just one...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don’t think many want us to lose or take joy in watching us lose. It’s a steady decline. Once your past the point of going mental about losses, feeling indifferent about them or even finding them comical, it gets to a point where you just hope the manager walks or gets fired. We used to debate on GW all the time about player performances but once you’ve booed a player off the pitch and realise it’s not really that’s player’s fault, the focus ends up on the man that picks him constantly. It’s been a slow decline to get to this point. I don’t think anyone would choose this.

The game against Watford didn't make me angry at all, there was something almost comically predictable about it.

But again I reiterate I wanted us to win that game, can Zim say the same?

I was gutted by losing to Chelsea (well not gutted absolutely frothing at the mouth angry) and id agree the more frequently you lose the more you become desensitised to it but the overall feeling of failing to win a title is still gutting regardless of whether you could see it coming or not.

[selassie]

You make that assertion because of frustration at Wengers decision making which is astonishingly counter intuitive

Questioning his ability is one thing, it's abundantly clear that he doesn't have what it takes....but there is no evidence to suppose that someone who has won three league titles has no desire to win anything else.

Do you look at Wenger as someone fixated with money, because If he was it stands to reason he could have left Arsenal in 2004 for Real Madrid and added an extra decimal to his wages.

Maybe frustration plays a part but his actions or lack of them give me the opinion I have formed on the situation. Of course ability comes into question, I do question whether he was it takes to win the major prizes given the current circumstances. But for me he simply does not do enough or take the required action for someone who has the desire to win. Take for example Fergie at United, to win his last championship he went out and bought RVP off us, that was all, he identified the major weakness in the United team and sort to rectify it. Wenger for example would never do that, not because he doesn't have the ability, but simply because he doesn't have the desire to do what is necessary to push this team on. Not addressing glaring weaknesses in the team has nothing to do with his ability IMO.

I don't think he's fixated with money, but I think he is someone comfortable with his objectives set at Arsenal, he's in a unique position.

Wenger wouldn't last a season at somewhere like Real Madrid or PSG, not if carried on working in this manner. They would have sacked him a long time ago.

[Power n Glory]

You make that assertion because of frustration at Wengers decision making which is astonishingly counter intuitive

Questioning his ability is one thing, it's abundantly clear that he doesn't have what it takes....but there is no evidence to suppose that someone who has won three league titles has no desire to win anything else.

Do you look at Wenger as someone fixated with money, because If he was it stands to reason he could have left Arsenal in 2004 for Real Madrid and added an extra decimal to his wages.

It seems crazy to question his desire to win more trophies but I often ask that question season after season. Why hasn’t the years of losses, the jabs by his nemesis Mourinho and detractors sent him into a blind rage? Why hasn’t that spurned him on? How can he stand to see his peers surpass him to CL glory and not try to do more? Why hasn’t any of this set him on a path to getting his team right and using all the funds possible to create a beast of a team? As Wright said some weeks back, it doesn’t look like the losses hurt him enough. It doesn’t sound right considering what I’ve heard him say and that quote from Dein but I really don’t know what else to conclude.

If he’d gone all out this season and spent everything on the team, a striker, a DM and whoever else we needed to get the job done, I’d agree that the hunger is there but not the ability. But I fear it’s a case of lacking in both hunger and ability. When were those quotes taken from Dein? Is he referring to the old Wenger during the Highbury years when he refuse to drink with other managers after a game? We all know he’s soften his approach and would drink with Fergie of all people. I really don’t know where he’s at mentally.

Think of it this way. Our players have been right in the mix for their first league title under Wenger but we often get games where it looks like they have nothing to play for. It’s baffling at times but we’ll still accuse some of not really caring and comfortable picking up a cheque. So why isn’t it different for Wenger? You get it sometimes that some people can’t battle through tough times and give up right in the middle of a tough task. That might be the case for some of the players and Wenger. The hunger dies out. As for Wenger at Madrid! :lol: He’s safer here at Arsenal and wouldn’t take a genius to work out he’d earn more here over several seasons compared to one or two years with Madrid. He’d have been sacked by now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Like I say his decision making is counter intuitive, he spent almost 100million gross between summer 2014 and January 2015 so there is no argument to be made for him that he's not being given the cash.

We know that there is hardly any pressure on him for his job so it's not about being scared to spend in case it makes no difference to our fortunes.

The guy is stubborn, ridiculously so and even though his desire to win things remains, he hamstrings himself (which is a reason to get rid of course).

Not that I'm saying this as an excuse to do nothing, but we can't become a Chelsea like club and a new guy needs time which does imply things getting worse before they get better.

It would be a few years under a new manager before we are ready to challenge for the title and European cup and most likely would fall outside the top four in that time. Fortunately we are in a position to take that risk.

[Kano]

OK, but that is a new deal. Back in the day the CL money was very important. I think he'd have gone had we dropped out of the top 4 for any length of time.
We'll never know of course because Wenger has kept us in the top 4.
Wenger :bow:



:run:

Perhaps but the basis of this conversation began with people talking about what it would take for Wenger to lose his job at this point. He’s very much in control of that situation, the TV money is another cushion that allows him to pick when he retires.

[Power n Glory]

The game against Watford didn't make me angry at all, there was something almost comically predictable about it.

But again I reiterate I wanted us to win that game, can Zim say the same?

I was gutted by losing to Chelsea (well not gutted absolutely frothing at the mouth angry) and id agree the more frequently you lose the more you become desensitised to it but the overall feeling of failing to win a title is still gutting regardless of whether you could see it coming or not.

Considering the amount of abuse and stick he’s gotten, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some form of satisfaction in rubbing a few faces in it when what’s been predicted comes to pass. I don’t know. It might be why wires are getting crossed and you think he’s happy about a loss. Zim did say earlier he wants to see us win but I could be wrong. But me personally, I’m beyond the point of being gutted because nothing shocks me with this team. I said earlier in the season before that there is no point in hoping for springboard effect, looking at results against City and Utd and thinking we’ve somehow improved. Over the past 10 years we have seen it all with Arsenal. Years where we beat the big teams but lose against the small ones. Years where it’s the reverse and then a season like this. There really is nothing to measure our progress against in terms of results. Unless we see a complete shift in mentality from the Board and from the manager, history will repeat itself. I’m not gutted about losing the title to be honest. It’s comical that Wenger has driven home the point being made about his failings as a manager in such a spectacular fashion. What would really shock and piss me off is if Spurs win the title. That would be unbelievable.

[Özim]

Zim is an armchair fan. And there's nothing wrong with that, I'm one of those now.
But he is only interested in trophies - the whole nonsense about the "thoroughly enjoyable" 92/93 season shows that. I had a season ticket that year and it was mostly miserable, yes the end was good but a season lasts a long time and most of it was abject.
On the 7th November 1992 we beat Coventry, the end of a good run. We didn't win a league game again until 16th January (P8 W0 D3 L5).
For the rest of the league season, 27 games, we won just 6, drew 9 and lost 12.
Let me just repeat that. We won 6 out of 27 league games. Six! :lol: Can you imagine this place if we had that kind of season now?!
It was pathetic, frankly, this was only 2 seasons after we'd been champions, losing only one game. Even the season before we'd finished 4th.
And yet Zim thorougly enjoyed it :shrug:
Why? Because he didn't have to sit through most of it and we got a couple of trophies at the end of it, somehow.

Now he's so bitter about Wenger though he actually hopes we don't win anything although it's a strange logic because we'll almost certainly finish top 4 anyway, he'll have met the board's target so he'll stay on anyway - why not win the league if we can? Which we can't, obviously.

As for the assertion that I think we're progressing. No, we've stagnated. Many have said Wenger has us in decline. He doesn't. We have neither progressed not declined in the last 10 years, there have been some promising signs but ultimately this season shows that there's been no real progress. I'll admit that the last couple of years I have seen some signs for hope. I've been over those endlessly. This season we needed to push on and win the title - or at least challenge strongly - and we haven't.

You really have a selective memory, in the season we won those two cups we rested players to prioritise the cups in quite a few games so it's not a surprise we lost or failed to win quite a number, the league wasn't the priority as we we'ren't in the running, but in those days the cups were important and winning both had never been done.

Yes I enjoyed the drama of the cups, the last minute goals the comebacks, the build up to doing the double, it was great, far better than the nonsense we see with 4th place with Wenger which IMO is absolutely worthless other than financially.

I don't expect us to win all the time, what I expect is a team capable of upsetting the odds from time to time, organisation, solid performances and some proper runs of form where we play great football and look the part and to see some progress. 10 years of Wengers nonsense is enough, the guy and everything he does is a bore and most importantly nothing ever changes with him, if anything we're going backwards.

Do I want Wenger out, yes for all the reason we know and the fact the guy is soooo arrogant he comes out and criticises anyone who dare question his job or anything he does, he's an awful representative for the club with his embarrassing comments and childish strops.

Don't expect you to understand because it's clear what you think of Wenger and you never really see the bad, yes there's a few empty words you mutter, but in reality you always find a way to defend the guy.

[Özim]

Top 4 is the board's minimum expectation of him, he obviously is bothered if he doesn't win - just look at the way he sulks when we don't.
I saw an interview with Dein where he said that they have dinner after every home game unless we lost because if that has happened he's no company.
He's clearly bothered, it's a lack of ability to push us any further, not an unwillingness to.

To a degree he's bothered, but if he was truly bothered he'd do far more than he does and be far more critical of some of his players, yes he throws a tantrum sometimes when we lose, but it's not long before he's back to normal and defending the players saying how much spirit and effort etc there is.

The guy is a joke.

[Özim]

Do you look at Wenger as someone fixated with money, because If he was it stands to reason he could have left Arsenal in 2004 for Real Madrid and added an extra decimal to his wages.

This is total nonsense to be fair, at Arsenal he gets paid a fortune, does what he wants when he wants and has total job security, at Real he'd be under pressure to sign stars, under pressure to win and would be lucky to survive 2 seasons.

It's not hard to see why he didn't leave, if anything leaving would have been pushing himself out of his comfort zone and proving to people he can do it at more than one club.

[Özim]

That and the thousands of fans who go to the Emirates week in, week out. Those absolute collaborating traitors deserve to be shot when the revolution comes.

Yes they do and that's part and parcel of the problem, if you really want change and I mean really want it you don't turn up every week and line their pockets because as we already know the only thing those guys care about is money, so if there's no risk to that they'll happily tell you to pipe down very much as they do.

[Özim]

I don't think many do either, just one...

I'm a realist and realise that we're not going to win, I knew that before the season started when all we signed is a keeper, it was foolish and complacent.

What's happening now is a consequence of poor planning, a blinkered approach to players who are always injured, poor tactics and an inability to motivate.

Unlike me you genuinely believe you can go into a season underprepared with a guy who has proven he's tacticall inept at the helm and can somehow win major trophies. We've come close I'll give you that, thanks to probably the worst PL season of all time, but even then we've managed to fall short, but it's hardly a surprise, there's a lack of quality from top to bottom.

I'm bored of knowing what's going to happen, how much pleasure can you really take knowing that you're going to collapse when it matters the most, I guess if you can pretend it's not going to happen you can enjoy it, but those who can't don't.

I don't enjoy us losing, I'm tired of it in fact, I just expect it because it happens so often nowadays, it's doesn't hurt anymore it's just part and parcel of having a manager like Wenger.

[Letters]

You really have a selective memory.
If you thoroughly enjoyed the season then you're the one with a selective memory. There were good moments, certainly, but it was mostly awful.
We scored 40 goals in 42 games. :lol:
I sat through most of it. You didn't, you just enjoyed the trophies at the end and have conveniently forgotten how awful we were for most of that season.

What I think of Wenger is that I respect the guy, I'll always be grateful for what he's done for us, not just 10 years ago - as I've said if you think 3rd and the FA Cup was disappointing last season then that level of expectation comes entirely from Wenger. But it's increasingly clear we need to move on from him. That doesn't mean he should be called every name under the sun or that I'll pretend he hasn't done any good in the last 10 years. IMO with a top striker this year we'd have won the league, our squad is in pretty good shape. We've got the money to strengthen it in the areas it needs work and the stadium and fanbase to sustain it. Wenger deserves credit for all of that. Refusing to acknowledge any of that that is ridiculously bitter and twisted. It's crazy how far you'll go to have a go at him or deny him any credit for anything.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yes they do and that's part and parcel of the problem, if you really want change and I mean really want it you don't turn up every week and line their pockets because as we already know the only thing those guys care about is money, so if there's no risk to that they'll happily tell you to pipe down very much as they do.

I love the fact that you think you're a better supporter than those who turn out week in, week out.

I have to say I'm impressed that you have admitted it, I didn't think you would

I have only been once this season and I could not fault anyone for not really wanting to go, I went a lot last season because I was using someone else's season ticket and actually in the games I went to I enjoyed the football and the results.

Asking fans to stop wanting their club to win is like telling a mother to no longer love her child, he may be going down a wrong path but you can't disconnect emotionally.

Well no actually you can, but as you're not actually a supporter to begin with that makes it easier.

[KSE Comedy Club]

There isn't really much to give Wenger credit for in the last 10 years tbh.

Ok there is two FA cups but they were an exception.

At the end of the day, we are all pretty much at the same point in time whereby we all want a change in manager. Doesn't matter if the reasons are all the same or all different, we all now recognise that is where the problem lies.

viera is the most recent ex player to voice his opinion about how disrespectful us fans are for daring to question Wenger and going on about what he has done in the past for the club. We all know what he did in the past - but it's in the past!!

The only way we will have any power to make a change is to stand together - and Letters - that means including Zim

[Letters]

He kept us in the top 4 while all around us were spending silly money to buy their way in and our finances were somewhat restricted
And yeah, the two FA Cups.
I think that pretty much is it but I don't think the first of those should be underestimated.

The only way to press for change really is to cup off the supply of money, stop going to games, stop buying merchandise. I don't think that will happen.
Maybe direct action in the ground will put some pressure on I guess.

[Özim]

I love the fact that you think you're a better supporter than those who turn out week in, week out.

I have to say I'm impressed that you have admitted it, I didn't think you would

I have only been once this season and I could not fault anyone for not really wanting to go, I went a lot last season because I was using someone else's season ticket and actually in the games I went to I enjoyed the football and the results.

Asking fans to stop wanting their club to win is like telling a mother to no longer love her child, he may be going down a wrong path but you can't disconnect emotionally.

Well no actually you can, but as you're not actually a supporter to begin with that makes it easier.

:lol: Where have I actually said that, well done making stuff up.

Then you can't expect change, logically why would someone who earns a shedload, doesn't give a toss about the football on the pitch and has a lot of money anyway care about what fans say? Unless you do something then it cannot change.

And that's a nonsense analogy to be honest, it's nothing like that but either way it's not what I want it's what I expect you can't see to get your head round that, but yes I don't think we deserve the title, we won't win it so my belief will actually be supported by fact.

It seems to me you don't really want change, whatever you actually say.

[Özim]

He kept us in the top 4 while all around us were spending silly money to buy their way in and our finances were somewhat restricted
And yeah, the two FA Cups.
I think that pretty much is it but I don't think the first of those should be underestimated.

The only way to press for change really is to cup off the supply of money, stop going to games, stop buying merchandise. I don't think that will happen.
Maybe direct action in the ground will put some pressure on I guess.

So what? What does top 4 actually mean? Yes we qualify for the CL make some money and then get knocked out at the same stage every season as soon as we meet someone decent (or not as has been the case a few times).

You seem to value 4th place so much, the truth is it's worthless, it only means something if you're going to go and do something in the CL at some point, otherwise it's just a cash cow to line the owners and managers' pockets.

In all honesty if we'd not got 4th who would really care that much, yes the owners would of course but the fans? It's attractive when you first qualify because you have expectations you could upset a few top clubs and maybe just maybe surprise a few people, but after a few years of reaslising there's no hope of getting anywhere in the competition it soon wears off.

The CL is about as enjoyable as watching paint dry for us these days, every season it's the same thing, come 2nd in the group after stumbling through and get knocked out in the last 16......it's a borefest.

[Letters]

So what? What does top 4 actually mean?
It means we can sign players like Ozil and Sanchez.

[Marc Overmars]

There isn't really much to give Wenger credit for in the last 10 years tbh.

Ok there is two FA cups but they were an exception.



Keeping us in the top 4 from 06-12 was more impressive than the 2 cup wins, though as a supporter I value the latter more of course. Best players leaving every year, average replacements and spending bugger all, some years we were actually in profit. If we had fallen out of the top 4 in this period with the stadium still to pay off, without the aid of bumper sponsorship and TV deals, I'd wager we'd have been floating around insignificantly like Liverpool are now.

Sadly though, his inability to elevate us again had been long suspected during the barren years and that's finally been ratified this season.

[Power n Glory]

:lol: Where have I actually said that, well done making stuff up.

Then you can't expect change, logically why would someone who earns a shedload, doesn't give a toss about the football on the pitch and has a lot of money anyway care about what fans say? Unless you do something then it cannot change.

And that's a nonsense analogy to be honest, it's nothing like that but either way it's not what I want it's what I expect you can't see to get your head round that, but yes I don't think we deserve the title, we won't win it so my belief will actually be supported by fact.

It seems to me you don't really want change, whatever you actually say.

You're not the only one confused by that post from Herb. A lot of made up assumptions in that one.

[Letters]

Keeping us in the top 4 from 06-12 was more impressive than the 2 cup wins, though as a supporter I value the latter more of course. Best players leaving every year, average replacements and spending bugger all, some years we were actually in profit. If we had fallen out of the top 4 in this period with the stadium still to pay off, without the aid of bumper sponsorship and TV deals, I'd wager we'd have been floating around insignificantly like Liverpool are now.

Sadly though, his inability to elevate us again had been long suspected during the barren years and that's finally been ratified this season.

Pretty much.

The 3 years before the new financial deals we made a net profit on transfers, you can cut Wenger some slack and hope that when money is available he can push us on.
When the money became available he spent £100m, signed Ozil and Sanchez and we won 2 FA Cups. It's utter bullshit that it made no difference to either transfer policy or the trophy cabinet, and let's not pretend we weren't all doing cartwheels when we won the FA Cup, even Zim was.

But yes, this season we needed to push on, it was Wenger's last chance and he's failed. So he needs to go. But I think he earned the right to have one last go.

[Power n Glory]

There isn't really much to give Wenger credit for in the last 10 years tbh.

Ok there is two FA cups but they were an exception.

At the end of the day, we are all pretty much at the same point in time whereby we all want a change in manager. Doesn't matter if the reasons are all the same or all different, we all now recognise that is where the problem lies.

viera is the most recent ex player to voice his opinion about how disrespectful us fans are for daring to question Wenger and going on about what he has done in the past for the club. We all know what he did in the past - but it's in the past!!

The only way we will have any power to make a change is to stand together - and Letters - that means including Zim

:gp:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:lol: Where have I actually said that, well done making stuff up.

Then you can't expect change, logically why would someone who earns a shedload, doesn't give a toss about the football on the pitch and has a lot of money anyway care about what fans say? Unless you do something then it cannot change.

And that's a nonsense analogy to be honest, it's nothing like that but either way it's not what I want it's what I expect you can't see to get your head round that, but yes I don't think we deserve the title, we won't win it so my belief will actually be supported by fact.

It seems to me you don't really want change, whatever you actually say.

So you didn't call those fans part of the problem? Which rather infers that if only they'd followed your hard headed pragmatism the club would be better off.

It's not a nonsense analogy at all, for a true supporter love for a football club is unconditional.

Your attitude is I'm cutting you out of my will until you change your lifestyle

At this moment in time our chances of winning the title are slim to none, the way we have played at times this season is agree does not merit a championship trophy. However talking purely hypothetically if we acheived what appears impossible with this current manager, we would deserve it by virtue of being top after 38 games.

And whilst it's mathematically possible I want us to win every game no matter what I think of the manager, will it be an act of futility? Quite probably so but the emotional connection I have with Arsenal FC (the essence of being a supporter) prevents me from wanting the opposite to happen because I think it will hasten the managers departure (when empirically you'd have to agree that this is unlikely anyway).

I am more certain of Arsenal going out of the champions league tomorrow than I am of the sun coming up tomorrow, however I will still want them to win and go through.

I'm not saying Judge him in May, because that's just deferring a judgement that is almost certain not to change.....I'm just saying my love of this club far outweighs what I think of Arsene Wenger (who again I reiterate have been calling for his head since 2011 and you've only to look at my posting history to see this, and have consistently stated shouldn't have signed a new contract extension)

I'm not against change, I think there are clearly managers out there who can do a better job than Wenger it's just making sure we procure that individual, because we are not in the quite in the financial bracket of man city where almost any half wit can win them the title.
Although Pellegrinis abject failure this season suggests he is even worse than "any half wit"

Out of intetest, who would you go for?. Because as someone who obviously thinks of the clubs long term benefit as much as you have must be constantly thinking of the best person to take us forward.

[Özim]

Out of intetest, who would you go for?. Because as someone who obviously thinks of the clubs long term benefit as much as you have must be constantly thinking of the best person to take us forward.

Simeone would be my choice, his teams whilst not the most expansive are organised and efficient and he's proved he can take on the best with a much smaller budget.

[Power n Glory]

Keeping us in the top 4 from 06-12 was more impressive than the 2 cup wins, though as a supporter I value the latter more of course. Best players leaving every year, average replacements and spending bugger all, some years we were actually in profit. If we had fallen out of the top 4 in this period with the stadium still to pay off, without the aid of bumper sponsorship and TV deals, I'd wager we'd have been floating around insignificantly like Liverpool are now.

Sadly though, his inability to elevate us again had been long suspected during the barren years and that's finally been ratified this season.

It would be impressive if he kept us top 4 if there were 4 other genuine title contenders in the league that had similar or more resources than us.

[Marc Overmars]

It would be impressive if he kept us top 4 if there were 4 other genuine title contenders in the league that had similar or more resources than us.

Well Spurs probably should have finished above us at least twice in that period and Liverpool post-Benitez spent a hell of a lot and finished miles off.

Wenger is finished now but I don't think he should be absolved of credit for things that he did manage to do.

[Bumble]

Keeping us in the top 4 from 06-12 was more impressive than the 2 cup wins, though as a supporter I value the latter more of course. Best players leaving every year, average replacements and spending bugger all, some years we were actually in profit. If we had fallen out of the top 4 in this period with the stadium still to pay off, without the aid of bumper sponsorship and TV deals, I'd wager we'd have been floating around insignificantly like Liverpool are now.

Sadly though, his inability to elevate us again had been long suspected during the barren years and that's finally been ratified this season.
But even between those years... it wasn't a case of scrimping and saving. We still had the 3rd or 4th highest wage bill. So we should be finishing at least 4th. Regardless of buying/selling players. People always forget how high our wage bill was. I think the season Spuds nearly beat us to 4th thanks to Lasagne-gate... our wage bill was £1m a week higher.

Wenger joined Arsenal at the perfect time, he has an amazing knowledge of the French league at a time just before France were kings of the world. He was able to exploit that competitive advantage and building on a strong core from previous regimes was able to create something magical. Something that will probably never ever be bettered as an arsenal fan. However, the stadium move allowed him to embark on a project that he tried and failed at Monaco of building a young highly paid team. This did not succeed and then he has begun adding experience and splashing the cash on some huge signings and yet we are still struggling relatively. It is the same year in year out and next year will be the same as I cant see Wenger going anywhere as we will scrap into the top 4 as we are about to go on our end of season run to ensure that once we are knocked out of the CL.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Simeone would be my choice, his teams whilst not the most expansive are organised and efficient and he's proved he can take on the best with a much smaller budget.

And the likelihood of being able to get Simeone in your view would be?.

[Özim]

And the likelihood of being able to get Simeone in your view would be?.

I don't see why we can't get him, we're a bigger club than Athletico with greater resources. The likelyness of getting him however is very, very slim because Wenger will be here for the foreseeable future a nothing will change since the stadium will remain full and money will keep rolling in.

Our only hope is that Wenger quits because he can't take the criticism, which again is highly unlikely.

In this scenario I expect to be going through the same collapse next season at around this time, just like every season, I hold no hope that it will be different.

[Marc Overmars]

But even between those years... it wasn't a case of scrimping and saving. We still had the 3rd or 4th highest wage bill. So we should be finishing at least 4th. Regardless of buying/selling players. People always forget how high our wage bill was. I think the season Spuds nearly beat us to 4th thanks to Lasagne-gate... our wage bill was £1m a week higher.



I know our wage bill was high but just because they were paid more doesn't make them better players. It was a case of poor judgement on our part and the fact we could meet the demands of a player with CL money anyway. As a little example Modric and Van Der Vaart were on relative peanuts at Spurs yet we had players like Denilson, Bendtner, Chamakh etc who I suspect were earning a lot more.

Look at the level of guys we were signing in that period, I have to give Wenger credit for what he did there.

[Özim]

It means we can sign players like Ozil and Sanchez.

Not entirely convinced to be honest, other clubs have signed top players without being in the CL, it's more about ambition and the manager and how much you'll pay.

Man U won't have a problem signing top players for example, neither will Chelsea.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

viera is the most recent ex player to voice his opinion about how disrespectful us fans are for daring to question Wenger and going on about what he has done in the past for the club. We all know what he did in the past - but it's in the past!!

Has Paddy actually said that?

Jesus, I'm losing so much respect for him. The guy's cut his strings with the club to chase money with the Sheikhs and now he wants to lecture us? It's ludicrous for the likes of him and Beckham, sitting in their ivory towers, detached from the day to day going ons and the emotional drain it is to support Arsenal, to preach about how we should behave towards Wenger.

I mean the stuff at the Stoke train station last year was clearly too far, just yelling profanities and vile abuse is vulgar but a banner which says "Arsene, Thanks for the memories but it's time to say goodbye" is pretty respectful and conveys what most fans think now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't see why we can't get him, we're a bigger club than Athletico with greater resources. The likelyness of getting him however is very, very slim because Wenger will be here for the foreseeable future a nothing will change since the stadium will remain full and money will keep rolling in.

Our only hope is that Wenger quits because he can't take the criticism, which again is highly unlikely.

In this scenario I expect to be going through the same collapse next season at around this time, just like every season, I hold no hope that it will be different.

And yet despite that belief you are still happy for us to lose in the hope that something is done?.

That's what I don't understand.

[Özim]

And yet despite that belief you are still happy for us to lose in the hope that something is done?.

That's what I don't understand.

I'm still hopeful he might buckle under the criticism, what's clear is he doesn't take kindly to be criticised, he just walks away. We need more people putting more pressure on him.

In the past he's put a short run of games where he's gone unbeaten to quell the pressure, if he doesn't do this he might not be able to deal with it.

In addition fans may make things more uncomfortable for the club, will attendances drop unlikely, but I guess you never know if they've finally had enough.

Maybe one more false dawn might tip people over the edge.

[Kano]

Attendances won't drop because of the tens of thousands on the waiting lists and the increasing amount of overseas visitors who attend PL matches. People love the the club and want the chance to see their team play regularly.

Liverpool fans walked out - but the vast majority stayed there to finish the match - and then the stadium would've been full again for the next home game, even if they hadn't of changed the prices.

To stop going to home matches isn't like changing your shopping habits. The owners of all football clubs know they have supporters over a barrel, so they and the TV companies take absolute liberties with them to exploit that fact.

[Power n Glory]

Well Spurs probably should have finished above us at least twice in that period and Liverpool post-Benitez spent a hell of a lot and finished miles off.

Wenger is finished now but I don't think he should be absolved of credit for things that he did manage to do.

Credit for the consistency but I don't think it's that impressive. Liverpool and Spurs have spent badly and appointed some dud managers plus swapped them too often. Liverpool were more of threat to us with Benitez. A flawed manager but had experience winning La Liga at least and they topped us 3 times whilst he was in charge, I think. Kenny Daglish, Hodgson and Rogers were never on Wenger's level. Same goes for Spurs managers.Martin Jol had no business nearly topping us. AVB came close after that but again, he had experience of winning a league title with Porto and was only given a season.

It would be more impressive for Wenger to get a top 4 in the coming seasons. If Man Utd appoint a good coach, Pep going to City, Klopp at Liverpool and if Chelsea appoint someone of equal experience of winning titles, we're in for a dog fight.

[Power n Glory]

I know our wage bill was high but just because they were paid more doesn't make them better players. It was a case of poor judgement on our part and the fact we could meet the demands of a player with CL money anyway. As a little example Modric and Van Der Vaart were on relative peanuts at Spurs yet we had players like Denilson, Bendtner, Chamakh etc who I suspect were earning a lot more.

Look at the level of guys we were signing in that period, I have to give Wenger credit for what he did there.

We had Cesc, Nasri, Rosicky, Song, RVP, Arshavin, Adebayor....

We had a lot of quality players compared to Spurs.

[Xhaka Can’t]

The game against Watford didn't make me angry at all, there was something almost comically predictable about it.

But again I reiterate I wanted us to win that game, can Zim say the same?

I was gutted by losing to Chelsea (well not gutted absolutely frothing at the mouth angry) and id agree the more frequently you lose the more you become desensitised to it but the overall feeling of failing to win a title is still gutting regardless of whether you could see it coming or not.

I feel completely jaded and have felt for some time now. I've been pretty quiet and passive when watching, both at the ground or whenever I can be bothered to watch on TV.

But when Welbeck missed that chance in injury time, I went fucking apoplectic like I haven't done in ages - about anything.

Why?

Because even though I've told myself over and over that I can't be bothered and I don't really care, subconsciously, I clearly do.

It is the curse of the fan.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I feel completely jaded and have felt for some time now. I've been pretty quiet and passive when watching, both at the ground or whenever I can be bothered to watch on TV.

But when Welbeck missed that chance in injury time, I went fucking apoplectic like I haven't done in ages - about anything.

Why?

Because even though I've told myself over and over that I can't be bothered and I don't really care, subconsciously, I clearly do.

It is the curse of the fan.

Or course and I get that completely.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Maybe frustration plays a part but his actions or lack of them give me the opinion I have formed on the situation. Of course ability comes into question, I do question whether he was it takes to win the major prizes given the current circumstances. But for me he simply does not do enough or take the required action for someone who has the desire to win. Take for example Fergie at United, to win his last championship he went out and bought RVP off us, that was all, he identified the major weakness in the United team and sort to rectify it. Wenger for example would never do that, not because he doesn't have the ability, but simply because he doesn't have the desire to do what is necessary to push this team on. Not addressing glaring weaknesses in the team has nothing to do with his ability IMO.

I don't think he's fixated with money, but I think he is someone comfortable with his objectives set at Arsenal, he's in a unique position.

Wenger wouldn't last a season at somewhere like Real Madrid or PSG, not if carried on working in this manner. They would have sacked him a long time ago.

I think you'll find that he did.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/arsenal/3659835.stm

:whistle:

[Ernesto]

I feel completely jaded and have felt for some time now. I've been pretty quiet and passive when watching, both at the ground or whenever I can be bothered to watch on TV.

But when Welbeck missed that chance in injury time, I went fucking apoplectic like I haven't done in ages - about anything.

Why?

Because even though I've told myself over and over that I can't be bothered and I don't really care, subconsciously, I clearly do.

It is the curse of the fan.

Haha- that Welbeck injury time chance- I was exactly the same.

An anguished cry of despair. Haven't expressed emotion so openly with respect to Arsenal in a long time.

[Power n Glory]

I think the neighbours heard me. Only a few incidents this season that has sparked a reaction like that.

[Niall_Quinn]

I would say that anyone who accepts mediocrity is the person who wants to see Arsenal lose. You don't need to cheer for a loss to want a loss. All you need to do is accept 4th place as an achievement and you willingly become part of the problem that guarantees failure. It's simple enough to understand why some fans so badly want losers purged they are prepared to push the inevitable in the hope it engineers a favourable outcome. It's a sound enough strategy, only complicated by loyalty issues that still linger in corporate sport. I mean SO WHAT if some fans want the team to lose? Does it matter? The team will lose regardless. They are losers after all. Losers with failure baked in by the biggest mediocrity in world football - the fraud Wenger. These are the facts, I'm afraid. It's all laid out in the record books and can't be denied. We don't win, we don't compete. What we do well is compile excuses, every excuse imaginable, to try to explain why we don't win and we don't compete. It's a habit losers have.

You won't find Real Madrid or Manchester Utd or Barcelona or Juventus or even the dopers like the chavs, gypos and P$G bragging about consistently losing titles. We lost the title 10 years in a row! When do you hear them say that? At Arsenal, we put a spin on failure, that's all. Consistent failure turned on its head and dressed up as achievement and even virtue. Total bullshit. Who buys it?

If you want to organise a pension then get Wenger. He will guarantee you safe returns season after season. But when he moves his pension fund methods into a football club then maybe it's okay to hope his fund tanks, just to see him out on his arse. This is CorporateBall now. That loyalty thing, we never want the team to lose, we must finish above the spuds, why are we bothered about such things if we then also turn around and say it's an achievement to fail 22 times out of 22 in terms of fulfilling the purpose of the sport we are engaged in? fuck it, in for a penny. If losing is your thing and you are actually proud of it then do it in style FFS - own it.

Or if you want to be on a poster with Arsenal Fan stamped under your mugshot, then go the whole other way. Demand success. Fucking demand it. The next time I hear a "fan" say we can't be expected to win the title every year I'm going to think about punching his lights out and then not bother. Win or lose. In life there is every shade of grey between. In sport it's binary. Did you win? Yes or no. What the fuck do you mean you came 4th? What the fuck does that mean? What does it matter?

As for the Ozil and Alexis thing - why are they even here? I mean, what's the point? Don't go fooling yourself they are here to win things. Because if that was the case we'd have at least COMPETED by now. We aren't doing even that. So we lose Ozil and Alexis. What difference will that make if the team isn't geared to winning in the first place? I'm sure we can grab another glorious 4th place "win" without Ozil and Alexis. We've done it before and we can do it again and again and again and again and again...

[KSE Comedy Club]

Has Paddy actually said that?

Jesus, I'm losing so much respect for him. The guy's cut his strings with the club to chase money with the Sheikhs and now he wants to lecture us? It's ludicrous for the likes of him and Beckham, sitting in their ivory towers, detached from the day to day going ons and the emotional drain it is to support Arsenal, to preach about how we should behave towards Wenger.

I mean the stuff at the Stoke train station last year was clearly too far, just yelling profanities and vile abuse is vulgar but a banner which says "Arsene, Thanks for the memories but it's time to say goodbye" is pretty respectful and conveys what most fans think now.unfortunately so: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsene-wenger-future-patrick-vieira-believes-arsenal-fans-have-gone-too-far-with-criticism-of-a6931811.html

[Power n Glory]

Recent headlines from Vieira. Picked Jose as his most influential club and said he was disappointed with Wenger and club for not offering him a role at the club. I won't even dig out the stories of the flirting with Real Madrid and disrespect before he left.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3413221/Arsenal-legend-Patrick-Vieira-picks-Jose-Mourinho-coach-team-mates-XI-NOT-Invincibles-boss-Arsene-Wenger.html

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/patrick-vieira-arsene-wenger-snubbed-chance-to-bring-me-back-to-arsenal-as-a-coach-10217909.html

These players are really taking the piss. The disrespect I've heard from this guy and yet he's pointing the finger at the fans. Fuck em all. Arsenal died at Highbury. This is bullshit.

[Letters]

Not entirely convinced to be honest, other clubs have signed top players without being in the CL, it's more about ambition and the manager and how much you'll pay.

Man U won't have a problem signing top players for example, neither will Chelsea.
It definitely helps sign and retain players. If we were to drop out for a season we'd probably be ok because of our long history of qualifying but as Utd have found you can spend a lot of money trying to buy your way back in and still fail.
Top 4 shouldn't be a 'thing' but it is and its importance is recognised - just look at the money clubs have spent trying to get in there.

[Letters]

I feel completely jaded and have felt for some time now. I've been pretty quiet and passive when watching, both at the ground or whenever I can be bothered to watch on TV.

But when Welbeck missed that chance in injury time, I went fucking apoplectic like I haven't done in ages - about anything.

Why?

Because even though I've told myself over and over that I can't be bothered and I don't really care, subconsciously, I clearly do.

It is the curse of the fan.

:lol:

:gp:

I was the same. I'm nowhere near as bothered as I was but at some level I still do care.

:ilt:

[selassie]

I would say that anyone who accepts mediocrity is the person who wants to see Arsenal lose. You don't need to cheer for a loss to want a loss. All you need to do is accept 4th place as an achievement and you willingly become part of the problem that guarantees failure. It's simple enough to understand why some fans so badly want losers purged they are prepared to push the inevitable in the hope it engineers a favourable outcome. It's a sound enough strategy, only complicated by loyalty issues that still linger in corporate sport. I mean SO WHAT if some fans want the team to lose? Does it matter? The team will lose regardless. They are losers after all. Losers with failure baked in by the biggest mediocrity in world football - the fraud Wenger. These are the facts, I'm afraid. It's all laid out in the record books and can't be denied. We don't win, we don't compete. What we do well is compile excuses, every excuse imaginable, to try to explain why we don't win and we don't compete. It's a habit losers have.

You won't find Real Madrid or Manchester Utd or Barcelona or Juventus or even the dopers like the chavs, gypos and P$G bragging about consistently losing titles. We lost the title 10 years in a row! When do you hear them say that? At Arsenal, we put a spin on failure, that's all. Consistent failure turned on its head and dressed up as achievement and even virtue. Total bullshit. Who buys it?

If you want to organise a pension then get Wenger. He will guarantee you safe returns season after season. But when he moves his pension fund methods into a football club then maybe it's okay to hope his fund tanks, just to see him out on his arse. This is CorporateBall now. That loyalty thing, we never want the team to lose, we must finish above the spuds, why are we bothered about such things if we then also turn around and say it's an achievement to fail 22 times out of 22 in terms of fulfilling the purpose of the sport we are engaged in? fuck it, in for a penny. If losing is your thing and you are actually proud of it then do it in style FFS - own it.

Or if you want to be on a poster with Arsenal Fan stamped under your mugshot, then go the whole other way. Demand success. Fucking demand it. The next time I hear a "fan" say we can't be expected to win the title every year I'm going to think about punching his lights out and then not bother. Win or lose. In life there is every shade of grey between. In sport it's binary. Did you win? Yes or no. What the fuck do you mean you came 4th? What the fuck does that mean? What does it matter?

As for the Ozil and Alexis thing - why are they even here? I mean, what's the point? Don't go fooling yourself they are here to win things. Because if that was the case we'd have at least COMPETED by now. We aren't doing even that. So we lose Ozil and Alexis. What difference will that make if the team isn't geared to winning in the first place? I'm sure we can grab another glorious 4th place "win" without Ozil and Alexis. We've done it before and we can do it again and again and again and again and again...

:gp:

[AFC Leveller]

“I built the club, and the way I did it was with hard work,” said Wenger. “I had no external resources. Compare the club when I arrived and how it is today. It is moved forward, and without any help from anybody.”

[IBK]

Wenger staying top four to keep his job is a fallacy, a niave stance to take considering the owner of this club. With the TV money coming in, Chumps League money is small fry, why else do you think clubs are looking beyond the next TV deal at a Euro League? Our CL earnings last year of £20m is a fifth of what the club finishing bottom of next seasons PL will earn. The owner isn't in this industry to win championships remember.

I agree - from the ownership point of view. As for Wenger - and referring to PnG's post as well here - sliding out of the top 4 is perhaps the only thing that would make Wenger question his own decline, and make the decision (to leave) that is his alone to make. Because what we are looking at with the manager is not lack of desire to win trophies - a monomaniac like Wenger would like nothing more than to prove that he is right and everyone else is wrong - but a complete lack of perspective. Wenger's sense of achievement with perennial top 4 is not simply something that he conveys to the fans. It is clearly something that he buys into 110%. It masks all the other failings with his teams, and justifies his methods. The problem with our club under Wenger is that he has built an empire in which nothing and noone is able to question what he does. And its patently obvious that this state of affairs stifles change and inhibits progress. Cue stagnation on the pitch and Groundhog Day for the fans.

[IBK]

“I built the club, and the way I did it was with hard work,” said Wenger. “I had no external resources. Compare the club when I arrived and how it is today. It is moved forward, and without any help from anybody.”

And therein lies the issue with the manager. '98 to 2005 - of course we moved forward as a football team. 2005 to now any forward progress has been limited to the balance sheet. Seems almost as though the manager can no longer tell the difference.

[Kano]

I agree - from the ownership point of view. As for Wenger - and referring to PnG's post as well here - sliding out of the top 4 is perhaps the only thing that would make Wenger question his own decline, and make the decision (to leave) that is his alone to make. Because what we are looking at with the manager is not lack of desire to win trophies - a monomaniac like Wenger would like nothing more than to prove that he is right and everyone else is wrong - but a complete lack of perspective. Wenger's sense of achievement with perennial top 4 is not simply something that he conveys to the fans. It is clearly something that he buys into 110%. It masks all the other failings with his teams, and justifies his methods. The problem with our club under Wenger is that he has built an empire in which nothing and noone is able to question what he does. And its patently obvious that this state of affairs stifles change and inhibits progress. Cue stagnation on the pitch and Groundhog Day for the fans.

I'm not entirely convinced myself. It may well be more wishful thinking on the fans part, than anything else. A guy who has so much control and influence over the club I believe would see a drop out of the top four as a blip, a small dent in his consistent record and one that he could rectify the following season. His ego is huge - which isn't a problem for me, as that is needed to be in charge of 20-30 younger egos every day. However, I think the echo coming back from the board would be he is safe out of the top four, that he is the man who can fix it again. They have no-one else and are probably terrified of breaking the status quo and safety net he has provided for them. Rolling the dice means risking revenue. The board are up shits creek when he leaves because there are no 'football men' inside the club holding influential positions, which is why they won't let him go completely. His natural progression will be upstairs in one form or the other - and no doubt handpicking his successor.

[Munchies]

Poch signing a new £3.5m a year deal
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3494128/Mauricio-Pochettino-set-sign-bumper-new-3-5m-year-Tottenham-deal-summer.html

Makes Wenger's £8m a year even more pathetic :lol:

[Munchies]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdoDV2eW0AAKcLA.jpg

Very thoughtful of the hotel in Barcelona to personalise my room
https://twitter.com/DeejayDt/

The banner could make a return tonight :haha:

[KSE Comedy Club]

Petit has also been disrespecting Wenger now, saying he should step aside.

I mean how disgusting, just like those silly Arsenal fans :sulk:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsene-wenger-future-arsenal-legend-emmanuel-petit-calls-for-frenchman-to-step-down-and-become-a6933821.html

http://m.goal.com/s/en/news/1862/premier-league/2016/03/16/21365572/petit-urges-wenger-to-stand-down-at-the-end-of-the-season?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.uk %2F

[Power n Glory]

And therein lies the issue with the manager. '98 to 2005 - of course we moved forward as a football team. 2005 to now any forward progress has been limited to the balance sheet. Seems almost as though the manager can no longer tell the difference.

What's more disturbing about that quote is the lack of humility. He's taking full credit for where we are. If that's the case and bringing this back to the ownership argument, why does it matter about ownership? If we find a manager with a vision for the club but doesn't deviate so far away from the self sustaining model, shouldn't we be able to find our feet again?

[Power n Glory]

Petit has also been disrespecting Wenger now, saying he should step aside.

I mean how disgusting, just like those silly Arsenal fans :sulk:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsene-wenger-future-arsenal-legend-emmanuel-petit-calls-for-frenchman-to-step-down-and-become-a6933821.html

http://m.goal.com/s/en/news/1862/premier-league/2016/03/16/21365572/petit-urges-wenger-to-stand-down-at-the-end-of-the-season?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.uk %2F

:bow:

But I don't agree with the Director of Football idea. What good will he be? He'll need to step away from the club fully for a few years so the new manager has freedom.

[GP]

I disagree with Petit. A former player shouldn't be the manager and Wenger shouldn't be the DoF.

We need a fresh approach but we need someone with experience.

[Letters]

There's nothing wrong with having an ex-player as manager - Graham was and he did pretty well - but they shouldn't be manager because they were an ex-Arsenal player.
Being an Arsenal legend as a player is no guarantee of being a good manager, in fact the reverse often applies.

[Power n Glory]

Petit means ex Arsenal players and I think it would be a huge mistake to go that route.

[Niall_Quinn]

All we need is a caretaker manager until the summer. An extremely simple thing to do, there must be hundreds of potential candidates. The "who could replace him" fallback is nothing more than a last resort delaying tactic. Hiddink is doing the job down the road right now, the chavs having sacked their manager because he fucked up big time, just like ours has done, again, predictably. I'd put Bould in charge for the rest of the season. Considering the current manager couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery an old pro like Bould could at least get the basics right and stop the rot. Or even Cech could do it. Plenty of options, all that's missing is the will but that has been the problem all along.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I see no reason for a caretaker manager, it will literally have no impact one way or the other as to how things pan out this season.

A successor should be sought by the board between now and the end of the season but to take over at the end of the season.

But then again we all know that won't happen and he will only go before 2017 (arguably 2019) if he chooses to go himself

[Niall_Quinn]

I see no reason for a caretaker manager, it will literally have no impact one way or the other as to how things pan out this season.

A successor should be sought by the board between now and the end of the season but to take over at the end of the season.

But then again we all know that won't happen and he will only go before 2017 (arguably 2019) if he chooses to go himself

The caretaker manager makes the process real. Which top manager is going to hang around waiting for us to make an unlikely decision in the summer? They'll be able to go with the "but who is there" excuse. And Bould could at least organise the team. Our results would pick up - I'd bet money on it. True, we aren't winning it now, no matter who could come in, but it might make a few players reconsider their options if stuff like shape, tactics, defending, shooting made a comeback at the club. What could it hurt?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Petit has also been disrespecting Wenger now, saying he should step aside.

I mean how disgusting, just like those silly Arsenal fans :sulk:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsene-wenger-future-arsenal-legend-emmanuel-petit-calls-for-frenchman-to-step-down-and-become-a6933821.html

http://m.goal.com/s/en/news/1862/premier-league/2016/03/16/21365572/petit-urges-wenger-to-stand-down-at-the-end-of-the-season?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.uk %2F

I think the problem with what Manu Petit is suggesting is that technically we should already have that setup with Steve Bould but we know full well that Bould has only ever intermittently been able to contribute to Wengers set up.

Wenger is a micro manager, we know he's not confrontational about it but you can tell he has nodding dog syndrome with any advice he gets that contradicts his own counsel.

[Xhaka Can’t]

All we need is a caretaker manager until the summer. An extremely simple thing to do, there must be hundreds of potential candidates. The "who could replace him" fallback is nothing more than a last resort delaying tactic. Hiddink is doing the job down the road right now, the chavs having sacked their manager because he fucked up big time, just like ours has done, again, predictably. I'd put Bould in charge for the rest of the season. Considering the current manager couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery an old pro like Bould could at least get the basics right and stop the rot. Or even Cech could do it. Plenty of options, all that's missing is the will but that has been the problem all along.

Remi Garde may be available soon.

[Niall_Quinn]

Remi Garde may be available soon.

Schooled in the ways of the Wenger - must get.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The caretaker manager makes the process real. Which top manager is going to hang around waiting for us to make an unlikely decision in the summer? They'll be able to go with the "but who is there" excuse. And Bould could at least organise the team. Our results would pick up - I'd bet money on it. True, we aren't winning it now, no matter who could come in, but it might make a few players reconsider their options if stuff like shape, tactics, defending, shooting made a comeback at the club. What could it hurt?

But as I say the damage is done and to have any actual impact should have been done a month ago

Also we all know there's only one person in the club who could affect such a change and would lose his job for even thinking about it.

[Niall_Quinn]

But as I say the damage is done and to have any actual impact should have been done 10 years ago.

Fixed.

I know, I know. But if we are going to try to eke a bit of enjoyment from this season then fantasising about Wenger pissing off is about all there is left. So leave me be.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Except I don't think Wenger should have been sacked ten years ago

What should have happened when the likes of Dein and Edelman left is that he shouldn't have been left to his own devices for so long, to the point now where he assumes he is Atlas.

Then I think surrounded with more football people, he wouldn't have been in sole charge of everything football related and the board would have no excuse to delay succession like it has.

[Power n Glory]

Fixed.

I know, I know. But if we are going to try to eke a bit of enjoyment from this season then fantasising about Wenger pissing off is about all there is left. So leave me be.

:lol:

[Letters]

Except I don't think Wenger should have been sacked ten years ago.
Nor does NQ. Or if he does then that is a recent change of view.

[IBK]

I'm not entirely convinced myself. It may well be more wishful thinking on the fans part, than anything else. A guy who has so much control and influence over the club I believe would see a drop out of the top four as a blip, a small dent in his consistent record and one that he could rectify the following season. His ego is huge - which isn't a problem for me, as that is needed to be in charge of 20-30 younger egos every day. However, I think the echo coming back from the board would be he is safe out of the top four, that he is the man who can fix it again. They have no-one else and are probably terrified of breaking the status quo and safety net he has provided for them. Rolling the dice means risking revenue. The board are up shits creek when he leaves because there are no 'football men' inside the club holding influential positions, which is why they won't let him go completely. His natural progression will be upstairs in one form or the other - and no doubt handpicking his successor.

Don't blame you for your scepticism! Wouldn't surprise me either for him to see dropping out of top 4 as a 'blip' - but generally (with the exceptions of the Assads of this world) there comes a time when even megalomaniacs see the writing on the wall - and Wenger is in a business where detractors can be very voluble - albeit that the fans hold relatively little sway. I just can't see his ego living with a very obvious decline - surely there has to come a point where he cannot defend himself any more? Totally agree with you re the clueless board and only a fool would bet against Wenger staying in some director, or similar, capacity.

[KSE Comedy Club]

:bow:

But I don't agree with the Director of Football idea. What good will he be? He'll need to step away from the club fully for a few years so the new manager has freedom. I agree, I'd actually rather he just becomes some kind of ambassador for the club and isn't moved upstairs as we really don't want his influence to continue

[IBK]

Am I alone in thinking that Wenger wouldn't be a bad director of football? Its the day to day coaching that needs sorting out most urgently...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I have no problem with him being on the board, I think he still has very good football insights and I think despite frustration with him, I'm not prepared like some on here to discount the massive positive influence he has had on the club.

Some seem to think the club that Graham and Rioch bequeathed Wenger is somehow better than what we have now, well there are always people that cry for the moon but the fact is our club is in a fantastic position and just needs a younger manager with better ideas to take us forward.

I see no reason to try and erase Wenger from history like he was Stalin.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Am I alone in thinking that Wenger wouldn't be a bad director of football? Its the day to day coaching that needs sorting out most urgently...

Not director of football because I think it's a bullshit job and a totally pointless adornment in the modern game

[Niall_Quinn]

Am I alone in thinking that Wenger wouldn't be a bad director of football? Its the day to day coaching that needs sorting out most urgently...

A total control freak as director of football? Kneecapping anyone who comes in to manage the club? Somebody who will likely be selected by Wenger in the first place?

A disaster that could drag on for another 10 or 20 years.

We need a clean break from Wenger. His whole philosophy is the problem, not just his archaic methods.

I think there's only one way this ends now. With acrimony. We've known for a long time how much the owners and the board disrespect the fans but confirmation of Wenger's disrespect is fairly recent. And enough to make him unsuitable for any role at the club. I think the owners will try to keep him on, I believe the fans will need to be strong to ensure he is forced out completely.

[Globalgunner]

Ferguson, a better manager than Wenger, was elected to the board but not in an executive position. Even a great like him made a disastrous last decision in imposing Moyes on the club. Best to cut the ties emphatically.
PS. Nobody is trying to erase Wengers legacy from the club. The man himself is doing a bang up job of that on his own

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Let's be fair what is Wengers footballing philosophy, look at our performance on the pitch and it's fair to say it's variable and really it is utterly meaningless in any real sense.

I can't imagine a few years ago he'd have set up to contain and then break against teams like city, Bayern Munich and Barcelona so it's hard to argue his philosophy is that set in stone.

The issue with the squad and performances is down to a day to day lack of tactical preparation and a gameplan geared to specific opponents (we aren't Barcelona so playing our game as we seem to just makes us predictable) and the fact that we have been a confidence side, more than that a fragile confidence side. It's like a guy who is usually good at sex, has a girl laugh at his package and then his next few sexual encounters fails to get a boner that slight sticking in his mind.

We need a manager and a coaching team able to deal with those two key areas and get far more out of our current crop.

My issue with Wenger as director of football apart from the fact that I don't think it's a position I want to exist at AFC, is that most likely it will be his hands on the till drawer still.

[Niall_Quinn]

No danger of Wenger's legacy being erased given the volume of football luvvies who have rushed to defend his appalling record of the last decade by highlighting the past. It's odd and inconsistent, sometimes these luminaries will tell you you are only as good as your last result, other times they will insist results from a decade ago warrant a free ride in the present. The records books will clearly state Wenger's achievements, those can't be removed. The same record books will detail his failures. Nobody has the power to rewrite the history. It all depends how Wenger wants to proceed. If he plods on he will cause the failures to outbalance the achievements and his overall legacy will be tarnished as a result. If he gets out while he still has a little credibility and respect he'll be remembered as Arsenal's greatest manager. Just. It's in the balance.

[Niall_Quinn]

Let's be fair what is Wengers footballing philosophy, look at our performance on the pitch and it's fair to say it's variable and really it is utterly meaningless in any real sense.

I can't imagine a few years ago he'd have set up to contain and then break against teams like city, Bayern Munich and Barcelona so it's hard to argue his philosophy is that set in stone.

The issue with the squad and performances is down to a day to day lack of tactical preparation and a gameplan geared to specific opponents (we aren't Barcelona so playing our game as we seem to just makes us predictable) and the fact that we have been a confidence side, more than that a fragile confidence side. It's like a guy who is usually good at sex, has a girl laugh at his package and then his next few sexual encounters fails to get a boner that slight sticking in his mind.

We need a manager and a coaching team able to deal with those two key areas and get far more out of our current crop.

My issue with Wenger as director of football apart from the fact that I don't think it's a position I want to exist at AFC, is that most likely it will be his hands on the till drawer still.

Of course, he'll have the final say on transfers and that in itself is enough to reject the notion of him staying on. We know all about his appalling philosophy in that respect. But I'm not just talking about his philosophy on the pitch or in the dressing room, I'm talking about his belief that a club should run as a business rather than a sports focused organisation. I can't think of any other club that places such ridiculous emphasis on delivering in a business sense even when it means failing to deliver on the stated aims of the organisation. We are here to win trophies, not generate financial growth. This is why Wenger accepts second best on the pitch, because football is his second and not primary focus. And if anything, since the money has come in, the focus has shifted even more towards business and away from football. Look at the state of the team. It is almost as if it has been entirely neglected whereas before at least we had a semblance of shape, tactics, the basics of the game.

He's got to go. The club needs a mind shift, it needs to get away from everything Wenger stands for, which by the way is no longer good football, no longer ambition, no longer winning. All of the things you need to compete at the top are precisely what Wenger doesn't provide. So he has created a lot of revenue for the club, but even with that he doesn't spend it with a view to properly competing. Always just a couple of signings short.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If he genuinely believes he has done enough to earn a new contract than he's just full of shit and he would be deservedly hounded out.

I still tend to believe that he delayed the signing of his last contract even though the board left it there for him to put the ink on, and he even suggested himself he'd have walked away if he hadn't won the FA cup.

He has adapted his methods somewhat having mentioned the tactical approaches compared to the past, but frankly the learning curve is too steep for what many call an analogue manager in a digital age. He's too loyal to players, will always dismiss the opinions of the fans because he believes their anger is emotive, reactionary and ephemeral.

There is no doubt that the last couple of years has been an exercise in hubris, he knows full well that he is still here purely for himself to prove to himself that he can win things and do it his way, as Dein explained he does take things very personally and I think giving up now proves the likes of Mourinho and his other detractors right (unfortunately the longer he keeps going the more he is proving them right).

[selassie]

Of course, he'll have the final say on transfers and that in itself is enough to reject the notion of him staying on. We know all about his appalling philosophy in that respect. But I'm not just talking about his philosophy on the pitch or in the dressing room, I'm talking about his belief that a club should run as a business rather than a sports focused organisation. I can't think of any other club that places such ridiculous emphasis on delivering in a business sense even when it means failing to deliver on the stated aims of the organisation. We are here to win trophies, not generate financial growth. This is why Wenger accepts second best on the pitch, because football is his second and not primary focus. And if anything, since the money has come in, the focus has shifted even more towards business and away from football. Look at the state of the team. It is almost as if it has been entirely neglected whereas before at least we had a semblance of shape, tactics, the basics of the game.

He's got to go. The club needs a mind shift, it needs to get away from everything Wenger stands for, which by the way is no longer good football, no longer ambition, no longer winning. All of the things you need to compete at the top are precisely what Wenger doesn't provide. So he has created a lot of revenue for the club, but even with that he doesn't spend it with a view to properly competing. Always just a couple of signings short.

Aye, I want him completely gone too and for the reasons you have stated. I appreciate what he did back in the good old days but I don't appreciate what he's doing now.

Que sera sera.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Of course, he'll have the final say on transfers and that in itself is enough to reject the notion of him staying on. We know all about his appalling philosophy in that respect. But I'm not just talking about his philosophy on the pitch or in the dressing room, I'm talking about his belief that a club should run as a business rather than a sports focused organisation. I can't think of any other club that places such ridiculous emphasis on delivering in a business sense even when it means failing to deliver on the stated aims of the organisation. We are here to win trophies, not generate financial growth. This is why Wenger accepts second best on the pitch, because football is his second and not primary focus. And if anything, since the money has come in, the focus has shifted even more towards business and away from football. Look at the state of the team. It is almost as if it has been entirely neglected whereas before at least we had a semblance of shape, tactics, the basics of the game.

He's got to go. The club needs a mind shift, it needs to get away from everything Wenger stands for, which by the way is no longer good football, no longer ambition, no longer winning. All of the things you need to compete at the top are precisely what Wenger doesn't provide. So he has created a lot of revenue for the club, but even with that he doesn't spend it with a view to properly competing. Always just a couple of signings short.

To be fair the mindset of Arsenal being a business will stay with or without Wenger, there are no football people on the board apart from Gazidis and he is essentially shackled as to what he can and cannot do. He brought in Wim Jonker and Shad Forsythe behind Wengers back.
I think unfortunately things may improve with a new manager, but with a new manager the bottom line is that the most important thing for the club is the bottom line.

[IBK]

Let's be fair what is Wengers footballing philosophy, look at our performance on the pitch and it's fair to say it's variable and really it is utterly meaningless in any real sense.

I can't imagine a few years ago he'd have set up to contain and then break against teams like city, Bayern Munich and Barcelona so it's hard to argue his philosophy is that set in stone.

The issue with the squad and performances is down to a day to day lack of tactical preparation and a gameplan geared to specific opponents (we aren't Barcelona so playing our game as we seem to just makes us predictable) and the fact that we have been a confidence side, more than that a fragile confidence side. It's like a guy who is usually good at sex, has a girl laugh at his package and then his next few sexual encounters fails to get a boner that slight sticking in his mind.

We need a manager and a coaching team able to deal with those two key areas and get far more out of our current crop.

My issue with Wenger as director of football apart from the fact that I don't think it's a position I want to exist at AFC, is that most likely it will be his hands on the till drawer still.

Agree with a lot of that. The question I would ask about the purse strings, however, is whether this would be such an issue under another, more effective tactical manager? Here's why. I wonder whether our criticism over Wenger's transfer policy is principally because we don't seem to have the level of technical talent to go with the 'non-tactical' approach that he favours. Put another way - is the talent in our team sufficient to have delivered the league this season. I would say the answer to that is a resounding yes. Is the talent at Wenger's disposal currently equal to that of Spurs; Leicester; West Ham this season, or Chelsea last year when they were champions - I think so. We have seen this season a shift in effectiveness between teams with so-called world class talent and those who operate effectively as a unit. We have seen also the failure of many 'star' names to deliver success for their respective teams. I don't think that this development can be ignored.

Wenger has signed some 'world class' talent in recent years, and there is no reason to suppose that this approach would be altered with a new manager - even if he 'went upstairs'. It is generally felt that a superior coach and tactician could do more with our 'lesser' players. Also, another manager would surely not persist with/reward high earning but underperforming players as our manager tends to do.

Yes it could be argued that this season is an anomaly, and that our traditional competitors are likely to come back stronger on the back of massive investment on the playing side. It could be said too that in Europe big spending on 'world class' talent is necessary for success. But let's look first and foremost on the need to re-build our team and take a new direction on the playing side. This is the remit of a coach, and I'm not sure that Wenger as a director of football would prevent this. One thing that a director is not is responsible for the is the training ground or the team's tactics; set up and playing style.

Last - you need to look at the set up of our club. We have an extremely unhealthy bias at the moment with a manager who is involved in every aspect of the team; investment; wage structure and coaching at a micro management level. Like Kano, I am deeply worried about what happens in the power vacuum that would accompany his leaving - in circumstances where there is basically noone at the club with the experience to step in - and an incoming manager simply could not be expected to step into Wenger's shoes and take over all the functions that he occupies, at the same time as getting used to his new footballing role. I think that this could be a recipe for disaster that might be lessened by Wenger taking a more administrative role. Most of us recognise that a quick fix to our current issues on the pitch might well be an effective assistant coach - yet this will never happen while Wenger is manager. Would Wenger going upstairs (something far more likely to happen - and to persuade him giving up the day to day reins) - not be an alternative way to achieve this change?

[Power n Glory]

No danger of Wenger's legacy being erased given the volume of football luvvies who have rushed to defend his appalling record of the last decade by highlighting the past. It's odd and inconsistent, sometimes these luminaries will tell you you are only as good as your last result, other times they will insist results from a decade ago warrant a free ride in the present. The records books will clearly state Wenger's achievements, those can't be removed. The same record books will detail his failures. Nobody has the power to rewrite the history. It all depends how Wenger wants to proceed. If he plods on he will cause the failures to outbalance the achievements and his overall legacy will be tarnished as a result. If he gets out while he still has a little credibility and respect he'll be remembered as Arsenal's greatest manager. Just. It's in the balance.

If he joins the Board and gets pally with Stan and co, I think he'd really tarnish his legacy. If results still continue to go south under a new manager, if we're still not spending as we should or signing dud players, ticket prices keep going up...etc I think Wenger's rep would take a battering. You'd have to wonder what he's doing upstairs and if he's still having an influence. It's best to have a clean break. Take himself out of the firing line.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Im starting to think the best thing all round is if Wenger dies.

At least then we could all celebrate his career with an all encompassing respect party and it would keep all the ex players and media and wengerites happy :good:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Jesus wept.

[Kano]

Jesus wept.

:lol:

He's an £8m cunt so he deserves it.

[Globalgunner]

:lol:

He's an £8m cunt so he deserves it.

3 score and 10 is the allocated number of years anyway so Wenger is almost there

[KSE Comedy Club]

Oh come on maccy, it was tongue in cheek :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Never say things unless you mean them

I remember about 10-12 years I actually suggested the idea of pushing Pascal Cygan down a flight of steps, the risk of paralysing or killing him appeared to be justified by the fear of Wenger continuing to pick him.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oh come on maccy, it was tongue in cheek :lol:

And now you're suggesting exactly how he should die!