What was the straw that broke the camels back for you?

[fakeyank]

Which game or season or a time of you following Arsenal in the last decade did you give up on Wenger?

To me, it was a game against Stoke away in the 08/09 season (Yes, I have wanted him gone for 8 years now!). This was our line-up from that game:

Almunia, Sagna (Walcott 57), Toure, Silvestre, Clichy, Denilson (Van Persie 65), Fabregas, Song Billong, Diaby, Adebayor (Vela 72), Bendtner.
Subs Not Used: Fabianski, Nasri, Ramsey, Djourou.

We played a 4-4-2 with our midfield 4 being Song, Denilson, Diaby and Cesc. You dont need to be a genius or need billion dollars to look at that and think "Where the fuck am I going to add width or pace to the play from?!"
Mind you, we had Nasri, Ramsey, Vela, Walcott and RVP on the bench. This to me was and is AW in a nutshell since our move to the Emirates.. What man in their right mind would select a team like that?! There is no balance or creativity in that starting XI. Like I said before and what is being currently shown by Leicester and Spurs is that you dont need billions of dollars to have basic common sense and brain cells. You can cry 'billionaire foul' every single time but you cannot defend brain farts like this on a regular basis.

This was just the beginning of the piss take this season. This season was also possibly the worst football I can remember Arsenal playing since probably the PL era. We did not lose in the PL from the end of November till the 2nd week of May in this season but we drew 12 games that season- five of which came in a row:



23
Everton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everton_F.C.)
1 – 1
Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.)

[show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Arsenal_F.C._season#)]Liverpool (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool)





31 January 200924
Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.)
0 – 0
West Ham United (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Ham_United_F.C.)

[show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Arsenal_F.C._season#)]London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London)





8 February 200925
Tottenham Hotspur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C.)
0 – 0
Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.)

[show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Arsenal_F.C._season#)]London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London)





21 February 200926
Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.)
0 – 0
Sunderland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunderland_A.F.C.)

[show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Arsenal_F.C._season#)]London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London)





28 February 200927
Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.)
0 – 0
Fulham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulham_F.C.)

[show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Arsenal_F.C._season#)]London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London)




Here is a link to the match report from that game: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/7684755.stm

If you scroll down, you will see a comment on 606: "Until we acquire a world-class goalkeeper, two world-class defenders and a world-class midfielder, we're not going anywhere (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A42998368) "

What has changed from then? We still need most of those players, but what we need more is a world-class manager, not a clueless old dinosaur.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I can't say I have always consistently wanted Wenger to go

But as far as I remember the first time I had intimated Wenger should leave was the 28th August 2011

The 8-2 game against United.

Before that time even though I knew Wenger was tactically limited (let's be fair even in his greatest triumph of the unbeaten season we knew there were better managers Tactically than him). I recognised that even though finances were never as tight as Wengers frugality in the transfer market implied that we were limited in what we could spend and I was prepared to be patient.

But the 8-2 defeat was the culmination of all his bungling in the transfer market, and his tactical paucity. It was likely whatever we did we would have lost that game but in the manner we did suggested no kind of pre match preparation to play deep and do damage limitation but just sent them out there like he always did.

I wrote a scathing blog about him where I questioned exactly what he was getting out of still being here.

Ironically at the time I thought Louis Van Gaal was the ideal replacement.....oh dear.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Blog I wrote the first time I felt Wenger should go


Arsene Wenger is arguably one of the best managers to have entered the English game, in his first full season in charge he galvanised a club with a heavy reputation for having a drinking culture and for whom many of it's best players had seen their best days come and go, into a title winning side, he took the legendary back four and introduced a new dieting and training regime to rejuvenate tired bodies and allow players like Tony Adams to extend their careers at the top level of football longer than they might otherwise have done, with that experience he fused gallic steel and strength with the recruitment of players like Patrick Vieira, Manu Petit and Nicolas Anelka and made Arsenal the only team realistically able to challenge the footballing dynasty being presided over by Alex Ferguson at Manchester United.
He took Thierry Henry a winger who had failed to make it at the top level with Juventus and turned him into one of the most lethal strikers ever seen in English and European football, he took Sol Campbell from our rivals in North London and used him as the bedrock of our defence where with us he won two league titles, three fa cups and was a champions league finalist.
He transformed the image of the club from Boring,Boring Arsenal.... an obdurate and turgid team who would strangle the life out of games (best seen in the 1-0 cup winners cup victory over Parma under George Graham's stewardship) into a team that would mesmorise it's oponents with pace, passing and precision and a deadly lightning counter-attack thrust that would leave other teams picking the ball out of the net ten seconds after they had forced a corner.
In 2004 he acheived a feat which only Preston North End had previously accomplished in 1889 when League football was still in it's infancy and that was to traverse an entire League season without defeat, despite being in a losing position at some point during 9 of those 38 games, we also overturned the record set by Nottingham Forest in 1978 by incorportating unbeaten games from the season previous and the subsequent season recorded a 49 game unbeaten streak.
In 2005-2006 in a season that otherwise brought disappointment in the league, Arsenal made it to the first ever European cup final along the way becoming the first English side to win at the Santiago Bernebau stadium triumphing 1-0 over Real Madrid, two years later we became the first English side to defeat AC Milan at the San Siro beating them two goals to Nil, and it should not go without mentioning that in 2003 we had vanquished their city rivals Internazionale 5-1 in the same venue.
Arsenal*have won the League and FA Cup double twice under Arsene Wenger, most memorably in 2002 when a goal from Sylvain Wiltord allowed us to beat Manchester United 1-0 at Old Trafford, avenging the 6-1 demolition we had incurred the previous season and allowing us to take the title from them on their home turf.
This same club with pitiless and ruthless efficiency took Arsenal apart 8-2 yesterday consinging the gunners to their worst ever league defeat since the 19th century and the worst start to the season since 1987, however the rot has been growing for a while, in 2008 despite being five points clear in the league in february a collapse that allowed us to win only one league game from the next eight saw United triumph over us by four points, a year previously we went out of three competitions in the space of ten days with defeats to PSV, Blackburn and Chelsea in the european cup, fa cup and league cup respectively.
In the space of five years we have sold off countless players without bringing in any kind of significant replacement, and our transfer spending has been outmatched by the funds we have accumulated by selling off our best players.
2011 saw us squander a four goal lead away at Newcastle, suffer ignomonious defeat against a Birmingham City side who now play in a division below us in the league cup final and sell off our creative force in midfield in Cesc Fabregas and Samir Nasri who frankly both wanted to leave because of the astonishing lack of ambition being shown by the club.
There has been a dramatic change of emphasis at the club, in 2004 the Unbeaten side were all six foot plus and in addition to their technical ability was a physical prowess that made them hard to compete with, this has been changed for a team that is much smaller in height, physically less robust and seem to place the embellishment of their passing football above the ultimate goal of winning games., in defence there is a frightening lack of leadership with calamatous goals conceeded from one player waiting for one of their team mates to take the initiative. Up front there is a clear lack of decision making where a player will have torn through the defence to get themselves into a great position, but will dither between taking the shot on or *squaring for a team mate and more often than not make the wrong decision.
The Manager has become a grotesque parody of himself, his body language fluctuating from slumped despair to wild, spastic gesticulation cannot transmit confidence onto the pitch and is as much responsible for poor results as is the lack of willingness to learn from mistakes or to make signings in key positions when it is necessary.
The board are equally to blame, the chairman Peter Hill Wood often makes statements expressing his contempt for Arsenal fans whom in a style not dissimilar to Harold MacMillan states that we've never had it so good, and that the fans should be grateful for acheiving the supposedly monumental feat of acheiving champions league football season in season out (which on the basis of this year's start....and the lack of forthcoming signings makes qualification in 2012 seem dubious at best).
The constant failings are pointed out ad nauseum by every sports journalist around, and yet when the suggestion is made that Arsene Wenger should be removed from his duties.....they dismiss it as nonsense, simply for no better reason than his past acheivements..........with chelsea, liverpool, manchester united ....this debate would not have even occured as the Manager would have been sacked long before now.*
What will Arsene Wenger have to do before the board (Who arguably should be out the exit door with him) decides to make the decision that they were mistaken to give this man unchecked power and that he has lost the motivational strength,the ability to find quality players in the transfer market and his ability to get his teams to suceed in the face of adversity the way he once did. How humiliating will it have to get for Arsene Wenger before his pride caves in and he must decide that the enormity of the mess he has created has become too much for even him to circumvent.
How much worse must it get?

[fakeyank]

:gp:

The worse part for me is that not much has changed since then. We can for sure say now that we have more money to spend, but beside that, its a rewind and play every season.

[Marc Overmars]

I think losing the League Cup final and the subsequent collapse of that season was when I realised Wenger had probably taken us as far as he could. IIRC we were top in March but ended up winning 2 or 3 of our remaining 11 games and ended up in 4th.

Then to compound it all, Fabregas and Nasri jumped ship and we failed to do anything in the transfer market, which culminated in that horror show at Old Trafford where we could just about patch a team together. It was complete negligence. Feelings towards him were never the same after that and everything since then has just been one parody after another.

[Letters]

Birmingham Cup Final was a 'moment' for me where I thought he should move on.
I later relented but this year I think it was the week when we lost to Utd and then Swansea. Before that we'd just beaten Leicester to go 2 points behind them. It felt like a moment. We'd had our wobbles but that late goal...surely if anything is going to spur them on to push for the title it's that. 2 pathetic results later and we're out of it.

[I am invisible]

For me, it feels more like any long-term relationship that's run it's course: there's no one specific moment that you can point at - one day you just wake up and know that it's done. After that, every minute spent on it just feels like wasted time, and that's where the frustration and resentment starts to build up - every little, minor thing starts to bug you because you feel trapped by it and want out.

If I had to pick any one thing that's brought it all into focus, I'd say it's been watching what Leicester and spufs have been doing this year - it really has washed away the last of the "reasonable" excuses, and laid bare just how much the big clubs and the "top coaches" in this country have been underperforming, given their pull and resources. I could mentally write-off finishing 3rd or 4th to Chelsea and the Manchester clubs every year - irritating as it was, there was no shame in it. You could justify it on some level. This season has been an utter embarrassment though, and not just for us - Ranieri, Pochetino, and even guys like Bilic and Howe, have really shown up all the Wengers, and Mourons, an van Gaals, and Klopps etc in the league.

I think it was Le Grove who made the point the other day that a lot of the smaller clubs have actually been outperforming the bigger clubs for years now, in terms of coaching, tactics, fitness management, scouting and youth development - they've had to! It just hasn't really been that noticeable because the same old clubs always finished at the top every year, largely because of the wealth divide - if any of the smaller clubs did well, they'd have their squad picked apart by the big boys in the summer, and would be back to square one again by the start of the next season. Now the money has started to level out a bit though, and the smaller clubs are better able to keep their squads together (and supplement them with a few decent signings of their own), I think we're starting to see a noticeable difference in innovation and output?

On the plus side, the club do at least seem to be aware of a lot of these short-comings - we refreshed the fitness team last summer (work in progress), brought Jonker in to overhaul the academy, and look to have been on a massive youth-recruitment drive since then, and we've just raided Leicester for one of their scouts (or was it two?)... the only thing holding this next stage back is the role of the head coach!

I don't know... I don't hate Wenger or anything - I could never hate the man who's given me the greatest Arsenal sides and the most entertaining football that I've ever seen (and probably ever will see) - it just feels like his time at management level is done, and I'm starting to get a little bit despondent about the time we're wasting. Quite frankly, I don't know why the club or Wenger himself are still persisting with it? The whole reason we did all of this was to make the club self-sustaining, and free from the influence of any one person, yet right at the last minute, when everything is finally in place, the club seem scared to let go of Wenger's hand, and Wenger seems scared to leave? It's got to happen sooner or later though. Even if he was at the absolute top of his game, he's still going to be a pensioner in October - this is something we're going to have to deal with, whether anyone is ready for it or not! I just wish he'd walk away, and take some pride and satisfaction in watching what comes next - all of his work has been about building this fantastic legacy, but he's never going to be able to enjoy that legacy until he steps away.

[Niall_Quinn]

and we've just raided Leicester for one of their scouts (or was it two?)... the only thing holding this next stage back is the guy at the top: Wenger.

They both said no and have stayed at Leicester. Good for them.

[fakeyank]

For me, it feels more like any long-term relationship that's run it's course: there's no one specific moment that you can point at - one day you just wake up and know that it's done. After that, every minute spent on it just feels like wasted time, and that's where the frustration and resentment starts to build up - every little, minor thing starts to bug you because you feel trapped by it and want out.

If I had to pick any one thing that's brought it all into focus, I'd say it's been watching what Leicester and spufs have been doing this year - it really has washed away the last of the "reasonable" excuses, and laid bare just how much the big clubs and the "top coaches" in this country have been underperforming, given their pull and resources. I could mentally write-off finishing 3rd or 4th to Chelsea and the Manchester clubs every year - irritating as it was, there was no shame in it. You could justify it on some level. This season has been an utter embarrassment though, and not just for us - Ranieri, Pochetino, and even guys like Bilic and Howe, have really shown up all the Wengers, and Mourons, an van Gaals, and Klopps etc in the league.

I think it was Le Grove who made the point the other day that a lot of the smaller clubs have actually been outperforming the bigger clubs for years now, in terms of coaching, tactics, fitness management, scouting and youth development - they've had to! It just hasn't really been that noticeable because the same old clubs always finished at the top every year, largely because of the wealth divide - if any of the smaller clubs did well, they'd have their squad picked apart by the big boys in the summer, and would be back to square one again by the start of the next season. Now the money has started to level out a bit though, and the smaller clubs are better able to keep their squads together (and supplement them with a few decent signings of their own), I think we're starting to see a noticeable difference in innovation and output?

On the plus side, the club do at least seem to be aware of a lot of these short-comings - we refreshed the fitness team last summer (work in progress), brought Jonker in to overhaul the academy, and look to have been on a massive youth-recruitment drive since then, and we've just raided Leicester for one of their scouts (or was it two?)... the only thing holding this next stage back is the role of the head coach!

I don't know... I don't hate Wenger or anything - I could never hate the man who's given me the greatest Arsenal sides and the most entertaining football that I've ever seen (and probably ever will see) - it just feels like his time at management level is done, and I'm starting to get a little bit despondent about the time we're wasting. Quite frankly, I don't know why the club or Wenger himself are still persisting with it? The whole reason we did all of this was to make the club self-sustaining, and free from the influence of any one person, yet right at the last minute, when everything is finally in place, the club seem scared to let go of Wenger's hand, and Wenger seems scared to leave? It's got to happen sooner or later though. Even if he was at the absolute top of his game, he's still going to be a pensioner in October - this is something we're going to have to deal with, whether anyone is ready for it or not! I just wish he'd walk away, and take some pride and satisfaction in watching what comes next - all of his work has been about building this fantastic legacy, but he's never going to be able to enjoy that legacy until he steps away.

:gp:

I for one am very glad that other teams are catching up. I think I prefer to watch races or competition where at least a good portion of the contestants/teams have a shot at winning the title. I seriously hope Leicester wins it this year... what a story its going to be!

[The Emirates Gallactico]

I've always had my doubts that he could deliver us a title and I had a lingering feeling he was a dinosaur in a modern game but our gradual improvement the last few years when more money was being spent (relative) kept me reasonably hopeful and optimistic that I was wrong.

This season's colossal fuck up is what's finally made me lose my shit. Made even worse my the collapse of our usual title rivals (City, Utd and Chelsea) who all won't collapse as badly next time around. We won't ever get a glorious chance like this again ........ we didn't need an Invincible 90 points + season either, just a half decent competent season of 83+ points and that would have been enough. Yet we can't even manage that.

Like a lot of previously semi optimistic folks I want him gone no matter what.

[Ernesto]

I think Arsenal fans are getting a bad press and undeservedly so.

We're being seen to be spoilt, rich brats who can afford to fork out shedloads to follow the team home and away. When there is the most subtle protest merely asking for Wenger to leave (a banner, shock horror, well, I never), our fans are castigated. In the days in which we actually needed the media to stick up for Wenger, he was the one being ridiculed (unfounded stories about his private life, Gary Lineker making a public mockery of him).

We're doing the right things in the stands and we're going the right way about seeing a change. We have to appreciate that the silent majority at the games, in the crowd, perhaps do want Wenger to stay. We have to respect that, it's their opinion and it's what makes us the fantastic fan base that we are. We're not going to boycott the club and booing the team isn't going to become the norm. The banner is where it starts. I have no idea where it ends, but I hope it's rather more amicable than the scenes we've seen at Newcastle and Liverpool in recent seasons.

Sorry, I've digressed. In answer to the OP, my gut reaction was the League Cup Final in 2011 and/or the 8-2 debacle (I'm still one of the few Gooners yet to have seen a single goal from that game! Conveniently at a barbecue at the time). The time I really thought Wenger had it was the 4-4 against Spurs. When he was outdone by the second hand car salesman. Horrible.

[Power n Glory]

Which game or season or a time of you following Arsenal in the last decade did you give up on Wenger?

To me, it was a game against Stoke away in the 08/09 season (Yes, I have wanted him gone for 8 years now!). This was our line-up from that game:

Almunia, Sagna (Walcott 57), Toure, Silvestre, Clichy, Denilson (Van Persie 65), Fabregas, Song Billong, Diaby, Adebayor (Vela 72), Bendtner.
Subs Not Used: Fabianski, Nasri, Ramsey, Djourou.

We played a 4-4-2 with our midfield 4 being Song, Denilson, Diaby and Cesc. You dont need to be a genius or need billion dollars to look at that and think "Where the fuck am I going to add width or pace to the play from?!"
Mind you, we had Nasri, Ramsey, Vela, Walcott and RVP on the bench. This to me was and is AW in a nutshell since our move to the Emirates.. What man in their right mind would select a team like that?! There is no balance or creativity in that starting XI. Like I said before and what is being currently shown by Leicester and Spurs is that you dont need billions of dollars to have basic common sense and brain cells. You can cry 'billionaire foul' every single time but you cannot defend brain farts like this on a regular basis.

This was just the beginning of the piss take this season. This season was also possibly the worst football I can remember Arsenal playing since probably the PL era. We did not lose in the PL from the end of November till the 2nd week of May in this season but we drew 12 games that season- five of which came in a row:



23
Everton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everton_F.C.)
1 – 1
Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.)

[show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Arsenal_F.C._season#)]Liverpool (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool)





31 January 200924
Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.)
0 – 0
West Ham United (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Ham_United_F.C.)

[show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Arsenal_F.C._season#)]London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London)





8 February 200925
Tottenham Hotspur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C.)
0 – 0
Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.)

[show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Arsenal_F.C._season#)]London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London)





21 February 200926
Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.)
0 – 0
Sunderland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunderland_A.F.C.)

[show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Arsenal_F.C._season#)]London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London)





28 February 200927
Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.)
0 – 0
Fulham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulham_F.C.)

[show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Arsenal_F.C._season#)]London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London)




Here is a link to the match report from that game: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/7684755.stm

If you scroll down, you will see a comment on 606: "Until we acquire a world-class goalkeeper, two world-class defenders and a world-class midfielder, we're not going anywhere (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A42998368) "

What has changed from then? We still need most of those players, but what we need more is a world-class manager, not a clueless old dinosaur.

I can't pinpoint when I thought we needed a new manager but glad you found this game with that dubious midfield line up. I remember that game and I'm not even sure if it was the first or last time he tried something so ridiculous. I'm not sure if it was that particular game, but I remember Cesc once had a game where he was played on the right!

I remember the Blackburn cup game where Senderos came on to play right back and got ripped which led to us losing. We all remember the days he played Eboue on the wings, when he used to play Diaby on the wing.....I totally lost faith in him from then on. Why in the heck was he playing Diaby on the wing and what aspect of his game was he going to improve there? I could never understand it. He didn't know how to get the best out of a good team and it was frustrating to watch. Not once did he try Rosicky and Fabregas in the middle in the same way we're seeing Santi and Ozil. He'd persist with Denilson holding down that role even though we had better options. Seeing how he couldn't get the best out of the players we had or make the best of the funds available to buy better players, I eventually realised we were on a road to nowhere with Wenger. The players eventually figured that out which is why they all left.

[fakeyank]

Seeing how he couldn't get the best out of the players we had or make the best of the funds available to buy better players, I eventually realised we were on a road to nowhere with Wenger. The players eventually figured that out which is why they all left.

This is precisely the reason I dislike him. I felt we almost never put our best foot forward going into games or even starting a season. Just remembering the Kallstrom situation boils my blood.. we were leading the entire season and were crying out for a striker, literally any striker. We instead signed a player who was not only a player who played in a position we didnt need, but this person was freaking crocked before he even signed for us. What Wenger was smoking or who he was consulting should be investigated. It was just criminal... and its things like these, which when I recall, make me loathe him!

[Letters]

Loathe?! Sheesh.

[selassie]

I've wanted him gone for a good while now, maybe 4 or even 5 seasons, even back in the latter days of Project Youth I questioned Wenger's policy when he had us going into the season with a squad of 3 CM's (Gilberto, Fabregas & Flamini) with no cover or squad backup whatsoever, back then the "financial" excuse was put out there which gave him breathing space. He's still making the same mistakes now with his mismanagement of the squad amongst other things.

Objectively he has to go, if we dissect this season and look at the teams above us it's a damning indictment of Wenger's policy. Mauricio Pochettino has built a team from youth largely made of homegrown players in 2 full seasons that is now challenging for the title, Wenger tried and failed for years to build a team like that.

Ranieri has built a team full of rejects and cheap gems and they look odds on to win the league, it's a major slap in the face for Wenger. It has proven that his way can work but only if you coach and drill the team/squad to perfection. Wenger is incapable of this and thus will never win a title again with his approach.

He has absolutely failed this season and should do the honourable thing and hand over the reigns to someone else.

[Power n Glory]

This is precisely the reason I dislike him. I felt we almost never put our best foot forward going into games or even starting a season. Just remembering the Kallstrom situation boils my blood.. we were leading the entire season and were crying out for a striker, literally any striker. We instead signed a player who was not only a player who played in a position we didnt need, but this person was freaking crocked before he even signed for us. What Wenger was smoking or who he was consulting should be investigated. It was just criminal... and its things like these, which when I recall, make me loathe him!

That season where we signed Kallstrom was probably the final straw where I stopped caring. After all the press about our new spending powers that season, it felt like the time had finally arrived for us. I had hope that we’d finally see something different and the timing was perfect because our rivals were in transition, unstable and weaker than they had been before. But we really squandered the opportunity. I hoped we’d sign a striker in the January window and felt that was all we needed for the final push to the title. When we only signed Kallstrom, it just confirmed for me there was no hope for Wenger. There was no excuse for that sort of blunder. Some tried to find one for him such as the money not really being there or we were never in with a shout to win the title anyway…..fair enough. Everyone has their opinion but for me that was the opportunity.

I never would have thought a more obvious opportunity would present itself and it’s really left Wenger with no excuses. Even if we manage to win the league this year, people will still question his ability because we’ve really struggled this year when we shouldn’t have. It’s obvious the money is there now and I was glad Gazidis was so vocal about our spending power a few years back. He laid it bare and let everyone know the sort of players we could afford and along with the salary we can pay. Pushed the ball firmly in Wenger’s court. Now the only problem I have the Board is if they offer Wenger a new contract. They really should fire him this season. They won’t and I can understand that but I don’t think he should be allowed to piss more money up the wall in season we know we have zero chance of winning the title. He’s a fuck up. Trusting him with more money is a bad idea. I could understand why he didn’t want to spend silly money on Cavani or Benzema because I’m not even sure we’d have won the title with those guys. We should but you never know with Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

He has absolutely failed this season and should do the honourable thing and hand over the reigns to someone else.

He won't and everyone on the Board would be encouraging him to stay on because they have no idea who will come in next. Rumour had it that they'd bring in a coach to work alongside Wenger for his last season. Help ease the transition. I hope that doesn't happen because we'll probably pick a novice like Henry or Bergkamp and although I'd like those guys to have a shot at managing, I wouldn't want their first jobs to be here at Arsenal after years of failure under Wenger.

[Niall_Quinn]

What are the key themes coming out of the club right now?

The manager is staying. Count on it. The owners are stating it loud and clear and the manager himself is almost gloating over this fact. He's staying and by the sound of it will be offered a new contract.

The fans have let the club down. This appears to be the underlying reason for the failure this season. Apparently the fans have badly overreacted to just a couple of poor results. Otherwise there are no problems, everything is on track.

The players have been rolled out to prop up the manager. The idea he should go or even explain himself is viewed as craziness and the deepest ingratitude.

The only exceptions are Ozil and Alexis. Ozil reckons we lack focus and need to buy better players, yet still thinks (has been told to say) we can win the title. Alexis has told us FA Cups mean nothing if they are not followed up by the bigger prizes.

We won't be spending big in the summer. The "warchest" used to attract season ticket sales has been set at £70mill. Considering we're losing maybe 4 players and some of that money will have to be used to stand still, considering the warchest will shrink as usual once the season tickets are sold, considering top strikers cost £50mill and millions more in wages, we'll likely see a number of underwhelming signings used to keep the squad numbers up.

Apart from a couple of players, it seems to me the club doesn't think there's anything to be fixed. They seem defiantly pleased with their performance.

[selassie]

He won't and everyone on the Board would be encouraging him to stay on because they have no idea who will come in next. Rumour had it that they'd bring in a coach to work alongside Wenger for his last season. Help ease the transition. I hope that doesn't happen because we'll probably pick a novice like Henry or Bergkamp and although I'd like those guys to have a shot at managing, I wouldn't want their first jobs to be here at Arsenal after years of failure under Wenger.

I heard rumours over the weekend that he will be offered a new 3 year contract.

I agree re: having a coach working alongside him, a recipe for disaster IMO. When he goes the slate should be wiped clean.

[Power n Glory]

I heard rumours over the weekend that he will be offered a new 3 year contract.

I agree re: having a coach working alongside him, a recipe for disaster IMO. When he goes the slate should be wiped clean.

This is where I judge the Board. We really don't know what's going on behind the scenes but if he's rewarded with another contract nothing more needs to be said. I think that's when it's time to change the channel. No more football for me.

[Kano]

I heard rumours over the weekend that he will be offered a new 3 year contract.

I agree re: having a coach working alongside him, a recipe for disaster IMO. When he goes the slate should be wiped clean.

There is no clean slate. Wenger will not be leaving the club completely. He’ll move upstairs in some capacity, that has to be realised by fans. There are no ‘football’ men in the club apart from Wenger in the higher levels of management and they rely on him for everything. He’s also engineered himself into that position, as anyone would after 20 years in their job. They need his guidance on the next manager and beyond, so new contract or not, he’ll be tied very closely to the club for quite some time yet.

[Power n Glory]

There is no clean slate. Wenger will not be leaving the club completely. He’ll move upstairs in some capacity, that has to be realised by fans. There are no ‘football’ men in the club apart from Wenger in the higher levels of management and they rely on him for everything. He’s also engineered himself into that position, as anyone would after 20 years in their job. They need his guidance on the next manager and beyond, so new contract or not, he’ll be tied very closely to the club for quite some time yet.

You can't be so sure. Has Wenger ever hinted or expressed any desire to move upstairs? From what I remember he's always expressed the the opposite.

[selassie]

This is where I judge the Board. We really don't know what's going on behind the scenes but if he's rewarded with another contract nothing more needs to be said. I think that's when it's time to change the channel. No more football for me.

Yeah the board are just as bad if not worse, not one member on it has any idea about football and they are quite open and honest about that.

I've been losing interest for a while, I'm not a glory hunter, of course I want Arsenal to win trophies but if we're not I'd at least like to see us in the mix competing, you know doing our absolute upmost to be a competitive giant, I see none of that, just the same things repeated season after season. It's actually quite depressing because we all know what is going to happen this summer and next season with Wenger in charge.

[selassie]

There is no clean slate. Wenger will not be leaving the club completely. He’ll move upstairs in some capacity, that has to be realised by fans. There are no ‘football’ men in the club apart from Wenger in the higher levels of management and they rely on him for everything. He’s also engineered himself into that position, as anyone would after 20 years in their job. They need his guidance on the next manager and beyond, so new contract or not, he’ll be tied very closely to the club for quite some time yet.

Sure, like Fergie I'm sure he'll be behind the scenes in some advisory role of sorts but I hope he isn't appointed as some kind of Director Of Football, the new manager will need a blank canvas to work from and the last thing he'll need is Wenger watching over him indirectly influencing any decisions he makes.

I do agree with what you are saying in as much as Wenger has got so much influence in the club that a handover of sorts will be needed but he doesn't need to stick around full time and shouldn't need to. This is Arsenal FC, we have the power to put the correct infrastructure in place to survive without Wenger, if we don't know then the likes of Gazidis should be doing what is required to put it in place.

[Niall_Quinn]

We're going to have to accept the passion and tribalism and history and unique culture is being/ has been stripped from the game, the English game at least. If we want to continue with football then you have to approach it like any other corporate brand if you want to get enjoyment from it. Coca Cola. Do you drink it? Do you like it as an instant consumer product minus any particular affiliation or connection with the manufacturer? Coca Cola wants you to consume their product but they don't much care for your opinion on how they go about delivering that product to you. And what you see is what you get. Coca Cola won't give you anything beyond that instant sugar gratification and it isn't designed to do any more than that. This will be/ is modern football. Go to the fancy stadium, get a football hit, leave, get on with your life, accept there is no longer any real association between yourself and the club and understand the club doesn't want your further input beyond the turnstiles. The product is there for consumption, it is clear what you are getting, if you want it then pay, if not then move aside and let the guy behind you pay. That's it. The modern football corporation, Arsenal FC with the C being paramount.

Fans have to decide if they want that or not. Can you leave this synthetic football behind as a consumer product you don't really want or need? Or are you hooked enough to accept this substitute? Of course a Leicester fan isn't going to see things this way at the moment. This will look like a glorious new age of possibilities and I don't begrudge them that temporary moment in the spotlight. But it's temporary one way or the other. Either they drop back down the league or, worse, consolidate and attract the wrong sorts and slowly become the same bland consumer product as Arsenal FC.

Football as we knew it will finally die when it doesn't even cross the minds of fathers to introduce their sons to the game. Unfortunately I have already taught my son to be a consumer of Arsenal FC and I suspect many others hanging on to the memory of a game long gone have done the same. So there's a whole new generation ready to spend, indoctrinated and addicted by their own. From £1 packs of football cards through £80 kits bearing a badge that means less and less through £200 "treats" to watch mediocre millionaires not fit to lace the boots of players past there's a whole army of fresh consumers growing up with a club that has no personal interest in growing with them but every incentive to market them.

The Young Gunners mail out arrived last week. Page after page of adverts. Cheap puzzles probably pinched from the kids' menu at Pizza Hut. There was hardly anything from the current players in there, a few decorative photos to force the association. Nothing about the history of the club. I also found a dusty old book from the 80s featuring all the top players of the time including a young Bergkamp. The Arsenal marketing pack got 5 minutes attention with no comment. The dusty old book has been scoured night after night for the past week. Even the kids can figure it out. They want to know, "Did you see this play?", "Was Maldini better than Adams?", "Isn't Simeone a manager now?" Questions, questions, trying to link the past with the present. These money bastards don't get anything, except the money.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Would you link this rise of corporate football with the diminishing identification of football as a working class sport?

[Kano]

Sure, like Fergie I'm sure he'll be behind the scenes in some advisory role of sorts but I hope he isn't appointed as some kind of Director Of Football, the new manager will need a blank canvas to work from and the last thing he'll need is Wenger watching over him indirectly influencing any decisions he makes.

I do agree with what you are saying in as much as Wenger has got so much influence in the club that a handover of sorts will be needed but he doesn't need to stick around full time and shouldn't need to. This is Arsenal FC, we have the power to put the correct infrastructure in place to survive without Wenger, if we don't know then the likes of Gazidis should be doing what is required to put it in place.


You are right in that the club should of course be bigger and able to restructure when Wenger leaves but why would they when they have him around to do so much of the work for them, even away from being the manager? Even now he is involved in far more than just managing team – if we recall, he was given power to pick Dein’s replacement years ago!


“I am completely committed to this club and I don’t imagine managing anywhere else at the moment. Will I stop working once I stop managing on a competitive level? No. I will always try to work if I have hands and try to be useful at some stage and some level. Maybe it will be a different level but I will always work.

“I don’t know [if that would be as a Director of Football]. I could be managing kids, developing young players, it can be all kinds of roles but I will not run for FIFA, you can count on that!”

These comments are from a couple of months back, so it’s obvious he is going to stick around for quite some time yet. The hierarchy depend too much on him and if they can build in another manager that can agree to work on the same principles set out by Wenger, it keeps the cash cow running for even longer than the next few years. Possibly onto the European League that will no doubt come after the changes to the CL are implemented.

Wenger and the board are too integrated for him just to leave the club and they all of sudden start making the right decisions. We know the owners are only here for one reason and they will not give up the one man that can help guarantee that for them.

[Power n Glory]

If that's the case, Wenger has changed his tune.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-arsene-wenger-rules-out-3330889


Wenger also dismissed any suggestion that he could move upstairs to become director of *football in the wake of Stan Kroenke’s proposed takeover of Arsenal.

“I am a football man, not an office man,” he said.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-arsene-wenger-wont-director-2241245


“I would not work with a *director of football because they buy the players and when it does not work you are guilty for not using them well,” said Wenger.

“I am not against having *people to help me buy, sell and negotiate because I cannot do it all. But I think the final *decision always has to belong to the manager to decide who comes in and who goes out because he is *responsible for the style of play and *results.”

Speaking to *newspaper *journalists, Wenger added: “It is like you write an article and someone says I will change that and that, and that.

“You should not accept that. Stand up for what you write!

“I stand up for the results of a team I have chosen. The *manager should be responsible for the players who come in.”

But when Wenger was asked whether the workload of trying to prepare his team and deal with transfers was too much, the 63-year-old conceded it can be difficult.

“I cannot deny the transfer window is a problem for me because it conflicts with a *period where the competition has started already and I need big focus on the competition.

“It’s not as easy any more because the market has become more open and international. There are more contenders, but not more players. I always want to be in a position where I do not have to buy.

“That is why I have people around me to help, but the final decision has to be down to the manager.”

It would be hypocritical and selfish if he took on a Director of Football role with us.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

That article is from 2013 but I would also be sceptical of him wanting to take up such a role for numerous reasons. I think when he does leave he is more likely to be consulted on a private basis......basically like Fergie now is. Nothing too official or on record.

[Niall_Quinn]

Would you link this rise of corporate football with the diminishing identification of football as a working class sport?

More like the decline of the working class in line with the rise of the debt culture. Debt put most of us somewhere along the middle class scale.

[Power n Glory]

That article is from 2013 but I would also be sceptical of him wanting to take up such a role for numerous reasons. I think when he does leave he is more likely to be consulted on a private basis......basically like Fergie now is. Nothing too official or on record.

Both quotes are old and he's often been consistent with his views up until now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

More like the decline of the working class in line with the rise of the debt culture. Debt put most of us somewhere along the middle class scale.

It's not debt....it's just borrowed aspiration :-)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If that's the case, Wenger has changed his tune.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-arsene-wenger-rules-out-3330889



http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-arsene-wenger-wont-director-2241245



It would be hypocritical and selfish if he took on a Director of Football role with us.

I think any role Wenger were to take up post managerial would largely be ceremonial, i actually agree with his views about the director of football

Whilst i don't think Wenger should be here anymore, it makes sense for he or any other manager to have the ultimate say on what players come and what players leave.

What he should not be doing however is determining the market value of players he wishes to buy, if he wants a player that should be that....leave it up to the club to determine how much they pay.

[Marc Overmars]

What he should not be doing however is determining the market value of players he wishes to buy, if he wants a player that should be that....leave it up to the club to determine how much they pay.

Spot on.

[Power n Glory]

I think any role Wenger were to take up post managerial would largely be ceremonial, i actually agree with his views about the director of football

Whilst i don't think Wenger should be here anymore, it makes sense for he or any other manager to have the ultimate say on what players come and what players leave.

What he should not be doing however is determining the market value of players he wishes to buy, if he wants a player that should be that....leave it up to the club to determine how much they pay.

I agree with his views on that as well. The manager should always have the ultimate decision except when it comes to the market value. Surprised to hear he’s considering the role.

[Özim]

The board love Wenger, he brings loads of money in without spending a lot and doesn't kick up a fuss if players have to be sold or can't be bought because they cost too much, if he sticks around quite frankly the future isn't very rosy, some will disagree but for me he just lacks that edge, for him winning is more about winning off the pitch financially than it is winning on the pitch and this is a terrible thing for a football club.

It's pretty sad that we're stuck with a manager who doesn't value winning that highly and that he may stick around to continue exerting his influence on a club he's deeply ingrained a losers mentality in.

The best thing for us would be for him to move on and and have nothing to do with the club anymore, instead it seems we're faced with potentially more years with him in charge.

His misplaced arrogance really bugs me to be honest, he loses and yet prances about like he's winning every season and is untouchable, pretty disgraceful, especially the way he almost gloats about how secure his position is.

There isn't another manager in football who achieves so little and yet is so handsomely rewarded and if offeed such job security.

This club use to be about aspiring to be the best and wanting to beat the best teams, now we're defined by qualifying for the CL by getting 3rd or 4th and getting into the last 16 of the CL, if that's Wenger's legacy it's quite sad.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

i don't agree that he doesn't value winning that highly, he just won't accept that he's incapable of winning the major trophies and we have a board that don't care as long as he gets the bare minimum.

He gets too spiky at criticism because he gets it too infrequently and almost never at all from his employers.

All this points to the problem not being solved by Wenger going, it's not to say that he shouldn't go...but it's clear that he is only a part of the overall problem

Looking at the Kroenke situation with the Rams in the United States, it's clear he's the biggest problem we have at Arsenal long term.

[Power n Glory]

But how can you conclude he values winning when he's unwilling to compromise? That's someone that has their priorities mixed up. His values trump the desire to win from the looks of things. He just won't accept that he needs to spend a lot more and adjust to win the league.

As for Silent Stan, we won't really know how much of problem he is until Wenger has gone or if a new contract is offered. So far we've managed to boost our revenue whilst he's been in charge and I don't mind him taking a back seat at the club. Someone too hands on or someone who thinks they know a bit about the game may try to impose on the manager too much. I don't have a serious problem with him to be honest. It's a joke that he doesn't invest and he takes money out of the club but similar to my views on the Director of Football, I have the same views on a ownership. I think Wenger's status at the club and seeing us through the stadium transition has kept him in good steed with higher ups. Now that we're out of transistion we'll see what happens next. I doubt they'll sack Wenger. Wish they would but because he's been here so long and what he's done, they'll allow him to write his own exit from the looks of things.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The problem is he isn't taking a back seat where it matters, there is even less pressure on Wenger than there otherwise would be because Kroenke regards him as inviolable.

I do think this is partly because when results are bad, Wenger is a useful lightning rod.

Wenger seems unwilling to compromise because he believes his way is best, which is both stubborn and arrogant however it doesn't negate the idea that he values winning especially as this is a man who does not seem to react well to losing. He is at his most haughty and entrenched when he has lost and you can tell it still bothers him.

[Niall_Quinn]

Kroenke is a huge and seemingly insurmountable problem. He's found the magic formula in this sustainability bullshit model that everyone at the club stands behind. They are proud of this bullshit. Have a look at sustainability and see it for what it is. A method by which to milk a fan driven industry for every last penny without having to invest a single penny in return. Arsenal is set up perfectly for this, probably the most exploited club in world football today.

Kroenke and the sub-human Usmanov couldn't have written the terms better had they started with a sheet listing their wildest desires. An undervalued (in today's crazy market) club - check. An environment into which money is being poured regardless of performance (Villa get £100mill for being relegated) - check. A manager with complete belief in the project who views the club finances like a trust fund - check. A fan base used to thrift based on a stadium move that has provided asset value but precious little else - check. The unrealised sponsorship and marketing potential - check.

It's 0% risk for 100% reward. Everyone pays, the fans, the sponsors, the Premier League, Sky TV and the cost of attracting that revenue is fuck all. In fact it's less than fuck all, they could actually afford to kick money in but instead they sit on it and boast about bank balances so they can underwrite other projects elsewhere.

And there's no incentive for them to change a thing. Why would they. If they can hang on until 2019 then it gets even more lucrative as another of the club's assets can be pumped, our inclusion in the "big 5" which is a winning ticket to the Euro League jackpot.

Nobody in football has ever had it this easy.

[Power n Glory]

The problem is he isn't taking a back seat where it matters, there is even less pressure on Wenger than there otherwise would be because Kroenke regards him as inviolable.

I do think this is partly because when results are bad, Wenger is a useful lightning rod.

Wenger seems unwilling to compromise because he believes his way is best, which is both stubborn and arrogant however it doesn't negate the idea that he values winning especially as this is a man who does not seem to react well to losing. He is at his most haughty and entrenched when he has lost and you can tell it still bothers him.

Kroenke took over in 2011. What about the previous seasons? It's not just Kroenke, it's an attitude that was there before he arrived. When Dein left they gave Wenger the keys to the mansion. There was no pressure on Wenger way before Kroenke turned up. In fact, if you check our transfer spending since Kroenke, we've spent a lot more and there has been more pressure on Wenger to use the funds available and not pocket the transfer fees we've received.

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/arsenal/english-football-teams/arsenal-transfers

In 2008 we were close to going the whole season with just Sylvestre and Amaury Bischoff as our only summer signings. If not for Gazidis convincing Wenger to push the boat out for Arshavin and Arshavin making a bold move and jumping in a plane to London, we'd have gone the whole season with that pair as our only signings. Ridiculous stuff. This comes after selling Hleb, Flamini and Gilberto. It put a massive dent in our bid to challenge for the title again and sucked the confidence right out of that team. Already deflated by the way we fell out of the title race, we took it further with this kick in the nuts.

Following season, not satisfied with that blow, we go one further and sell Adebayor along with Kolo Toure to Man City and our only major summer signings was Vermaelen! A disgrace. Season after we only bring in Kos, Chamakh and Squillaci.

This all without Stan as owner. I think I've seen more examples of Wenger being forced to buy since we've had a new owner. Less examples of us selling and doing f all about it...not by much. Way more examples of us panic buying and pissing money up the wall. Poor planning and poor decisions.

I'm sure Wenger winning in some sense but but the fact that he's so stubborn and rigid suggests his philosophy and doing things his way trumps winning. It's about priorities.

[Power n Glory]

Also, it's worth noting we've started taking the FA Cup more seriously and we're paying attention more to pre season tours.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think that correlates with Kroenke at all, i think that's more about Gazidis.....Kroenke is the man who said if you are selling out the stadium for matches you are not charging high enough prices.

However i do agree that it is all about Wenger being given total carte blanche over every football aspect of the club, but the only thing i'd agree that Kroenke has had influence over is the pre-season tours but again that's all about money.

The sale of players like Adebayor and Toure were money orientated as well, and i think it was probably clear that the 40million we earnt in transfers for those two was not going to be released for transfer spending.

To claim we have shown more ambition in the transfer market can be correlated with Kroenke becoming the majority shareholder is nonsense, because it ignores the summers of 2011 and 2012.....we have clearly been able to spend more since the stadium rights got re-negotiated and we got the kit sponsorship with Puma.

Between July 2014 and January 2015, Wenger spent over 80million on transfers net.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think that correlates with Kroenke at all, i think that's more about Gazidis.....Kroenke is the man who said if you are selling out the stadium for matches you are not charging high enough prices.

However i do agree that it is all about Wenger being given total carte blanche over every football aspect of the club, but the only thing i'd agree that Kroenke has had influence over is the pre-season tours but again that's all about money.

The sale of players like Adebayor and Toure were money orientated as well, and i think it was probably clear that the 40million we earnt in transfers for those two was not going to be released for transfer spending.

To claim we have shown more ambition in the transfer market can be correlated with Kroenke becoming the majority shareholder is nonsense, because it ignores the summers of 2011 and 2012.....we have clearly been able to spend more since the stadium rights got re-negotiated and we got the kit sponsorship with Puma.

Between July 2014 and January 2015, Wenger spent over 80million on transfers net.

Summer 2011 and 2012 is included. Stan took over in 2011 and despite selling key players, we spent over £50m and replaced the players we sold with experience. Poor replacements and we spread the cost instead concentrating on one or two marquee players, but we spent at least. A mismanagement of funds on the managers part but we can't really accuse the board of withholding all the money from Wenger like we did after we sold Henry, Hleb, Ade and Toure over the seasons. If we didn't wait until deadline day for 2011 we may have ended up with better players.

I think Gazidis has a lot to do with changes as well. He's played his part. But how can you really discount what part Stan did or did not do? You may not believe he's been influential, we really don't know, but the dates certainly correlate. It tracks back to 2011. Also, Gazidis has been with us since 2008 so to credit him with the changes ignores 09/10 and 10/11 seasons where were very inactive in the windows. We really don't know what's going on behind the scenes but even if you think Gazidis was more of influence, it at least shows there has been some pressure at least. I honestly think we'd have gone into last season with Sanogo instead of Welbeck if Wenger wasn't pressured. I also believe the same was the case in 2011 when we panic bought Merts, Arteta and co. On both occasions we have weird accounts of Wenger's whereabouts on deadline day if you remember.

But overall, we have seen a change in the sort of signings and our attitude in the cups. I'm not crediting Stan with all of that but I'm saying we really don't know what sort of pressure is being placed on the manager. I'm just pointing out the changes I see we've made as a club. Project youth has been kicked to the curb and we have a brand new coaching staff working with the kids. A new fitness coach. A new assistant coach in Steve Bould, the wage structure has been ripped apart....I think Wenger is the main reason we're being held back.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think this summer answered the question. The manager is being placed under no pressure. Imagine heading into this season without any of the reinforcements even the tea lady knew we needed? Wenger should have been sacked for that alone. And of course the chickens came home, roosted and then shat squarely on his head. He's still here, they are still saying they want him here and the fat Russian has made it clear even if Kroenke went Wenger would still be here.

No pressure at all on Wenger. That's why he's laughing at the fans in the media this week.