West Ham away (PL) Match Reaction Thread

[Letters]

The general question is whether Wenger tolerates losing more easily today than he did in the past.
That's right. And I said that none of us really know what goes on inside his head. We can infer from what he says in interviews (although do you really think he tells the press exactly what he's thinking?) or what he looks like on the touchline when things are going awry (which is generally pretty sulky, but so do most managers). But actually, none of us know the man, none of us really know.

So I said that one man who does have more of an insight is David Dein - someone who has worked with him for years and still sees him regularly - and posted how I saw an interview with him where he gave some insight into Wenger's state of mind after defeats. You said "that was a long time ago" so I found the video and found it was an interview Dein gave 2 years ago ahead of Wenger's 1000th game. No, it isn't a tribute video - there is no montage of people saying nice things about Wenger. It's just an interview with David Dein, like I said. Yes, he's saying nice things about him but he clearly thinks highly of him. Yes, they're friends but that isn't new information, maybe they're friends because he thinks highly of him rather than the other way around.

I don't know what you mean by "He's still at the dinner", Dein makes it clear they DON't go to dinner if we've lost because of Wenger's mood - "we only go if we haven't lost". Your quote from Wenger (if it is a quote) backs that up. Dein also relates a conversation with Wenger about how he must have managed 2000 games in his career and asks Wenger what that means to him, Wenger replies "2000 sleepless nights". It's not 3 seconds of evidence, it's 20 minutes of insight into Wenger from someone who knows him well.

Dress it up how you like, it's a man who worked with him for years and is still good friends with him talking 2 years ago, not 10. He knows better than you or me how much Wenger cares. The issue isn't whether Wenger cares, he clearly does. The issue is whether he's able to push us on and it's increasingly clear he isn't.

[selassie]

Actions speak louder than words. The actions of Wenger is not of a man that is desperate to win and that should be the bare minimum requirement of the manager of Arsenal Football club. It's all very well David Dein saying that Wenger doesn't like losing, of course he doesn't, nobody likes losing but does Wenger have the absolute upmost desire to do all in his power to bring the glory days back to Arsenal. Wenger has everything he needs to succeed, if principles are holding him back then quite frankly that is a disgrace. Nobody is telling him to go out and buy a team of Messi's, nobody is telling him that we expect PL & CL titles every year, what people are telling him is that he is NOT doing enough and is NOT using his resources wisely to make Arsenal FC as competitive as they can be.

What gets me more than anything is his defiance and surprise at our routinely played out seasons, what does he expect? how can he honestly expect progress if he's not making fundamental changes himself?

The whole system at Arsenal at the top is rotten to the core, do they honestly expect the entire fanbase to sit their like lame ducks and accept it for what it is?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's right. And I said that none of us really know what goes on inside his head. We can infer from what he says in interviews (although do you really think he tells the press exactly what he's thinking?) or what he looks like on the touchline when things are going awry (which is generally pretty sulky, but so do most managers). But actually, none of us know the man, none of us really know.

So I said that one man who does have more of an insight is David Dein - someone who has worked with him for years and still sees him regularly - and posted how I saw an interview with him where he gave some insight into Wenger's state of mind after defeats. You said "that was a long time ago" so I found the video and found it was an interview Dein gave 2 years ago ahead of Wenger's 1000th game. No, it isn't a tribute video - there is no montage of people saying nice things about Wenger. It's just an interview with David Dein, like I said. Yes, he's saying nice things about him but he clearly thinks highly of him. Yes, they're friends but that isn't new information, maybe they're friends because he thinks highly of him rather than the other way around.

I don't know what you mean by "He's still at the dinner", Dein makes it clear they DON't go to dinner if we've lost because of Wenger's mood - "we only go if we haven't lost". Your quote from Wenger (if it is a quote) backs that up. Dein also relates a conversation with Wenger about how he must have managed 2000 games in his career and asks Wenger what that means to him, Wenger replies "2000 sleepless nights". It's not 3 seconds of evidence, it's 20 minutes of insight into Wenger from someone who knows him well.

Dress it up how you like, it's a man who worked with him for years and is still good friends with him talking 2 years ago, not 10. He knows better than you or me how much Wenger cares. The issue isn't whether Wenger cares, he clearly does. The issue is whether he's able to push us on and it's increasingly clear he isn't.

I am aware of how long ago this video was made, it seems to refer to me what he said about Wenger back in 2002 when he lost a champions league match to Auxerre in the champions league group stages and locked himself in his office instead of going out for his birthday celebrations.
What people here are saying is that they simply don't believe he takes defeats quite as personally now, this is not a slight on the man even....it's just a case that having become more accustomed to defeats it's impossible to think he reacts with that level of histrionics and this is borne out by his post match interviews. Yes we know that he might not say what he's thinking in post match interviews but you can't change body language, and his body language is that of someone who is indifferent to defeat and only seems to become agitated when journalist question his decision making/motivations.
Does that make him a terrible person?...No it makes him a product of his environment where there is a total disconnect between the management of the club by the board and the management of the club as a football team, and because the board don't want to manage the football side of things at all it's easy to defer it all to Wenger and say he's doing a fantastic job.
And with the best will in the world as you get older, with the only targets set are those by yourself it's unlikely that you can be as driven as you once were.....this is why i think it's not just Wenger that's the problem. There is not an environment at the club conducive to ambition or success.
If you are asking does Wenger want to win the title?....of course he does why wouldn't he?.....but does the idea of not winning haunt him to the point where he's driven to succeed at all costs....i don't see it.

[Letters]

I am aware of how long ago this video was made, it seems to refer to me what he said about Wenger back in 2002 when he lost a champions league match to Auxerre in the champions league group stages and locked himself in his office instead of going out for his birthday celebrations.
I literally have no idea how you get that from Dein talking in 2014 saying how they go (present tense) out after every (i.e, not a one off) home game. :unsure:

Zim also said something above about him not being desperate to win at all costs and, for once, I agree with him. But I don't think that's a bad thing, and I don't think he ever was like that. I don't think I'd want a manger who is - Mourinho is like that and while he tends to achieve short term success he usually leaves a train wreck behind. I do think Wenger is too much of an idealist and wants to do things the 'right' way, if he was a bit more pragmatic we'd probably have won more over the last decade.

He is what he is and my take is he's always been like this. Maybe he's lost a little bit sharpness, he is getting older, but I don't think he's radically changed since he came to us. In fact, if anything that is one of the problems. Football has changed around us and Wenger hasn't been able to adapt and keep up. Which doesn't mean everything he's done everything wrong but the things which gave us an edge aren't there any more, now everyone uses the same or better fitness regimes, everyone has a worldwide scouting network. Wenger's USP isn't so 'U' any more.

Bottom line, to suggest he's indifferent to defeat is ludicrous. I refer you again to Dein's comments, they surely carry more weight than us speculating about his body language.

[Kano]

Yes we know that he might not say what he's thinking in post match interviews but you can't change body language, and his body language is that of someone who is indifferent to defeat and only seems to become agitated when journalist question his decision making/motivations.
That’s a hell of leap of logic to make. If I was doing the same job for 20 + years and I had a bunch of shitrag journalists pushing and digging me, looking for a response to help their cause, I would treat them with just as much contempt. Just how LVG does too. It’s a joy to watch at times. Who are these annoying fucks questioning what I do, when all they are interested in is adding to the stress around me? I’ve been doing this for decades and I have to answer questions by this scum? That said, doesn’t excuse Wenger’s reactions to the fans, that he could and should be handling far better.

You can make other similar assumptions about his body language, that you adapt to dealing with the media on most occasions asking the same inane questions year after year after a match, win, lose or draw. You tap out, go through the motions of having to answer the questions of the masters at Sky. He is also a 66 year old man, probably even calmer than he was a decade ago, dealing with things differently. What you are suggesting is similar to a celebrity putting on their best face for an interview, showing the world how wonderful, cheery and a good person they are, when in fact behind the scenes they are a snivelling, drug-riddled piece of shit. If we base our opinion of a celebrity on those small promotional moments, or when they are performing their ‘talent’, we should be prepared to be proven completely wrong at some point.

What we see on TV isn't reality in any sensible shape or form. It's all a form of distorting the truth, be dramas, sport or the news. All we see are windows into these arenas, never the full picture and not enough to ever really know the inner-world of somebody.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Body language is not incredibly difficult to read, and there is no doubt you can tell when Wenger is agitated and when he isn't, and he is noticeably less agitated than he was.

And Letters what exactly is wrong with winning at all costs?...the mistake you make is that this necessitates playing football Mourinho style?. What you seem to believe is that Mourinho is a pragmatist, when he clearly isn't....he is not that flexible with his style.....the idea that the less you have possession in big games the less likely you are to make mistakes......and that inflexibility means he isn't quite as effective a coach as he was five-ten years ago.

Winning at all costs, means identifying the best players to win games in all different sets of possible adversities you can think of, pace, strength, character....and yes sometimes a little bit of brutality/gamesmanship. These are qualities that were there under previous Wenger sides.

The example i used in regards to Auxere game was a paradigm case of how Wenger according to Dein could react to defeat, i wasn't inferring it only happened the once.

I just have cause to doubt that he reacts that way now....and Kano of course his age is a factor it does have a deteriorating effect on his motivations, that and i have said the atmosphere he finds himself in.

[GP]

I literally have no idea how you get that from Dein talking in 2014 saying how they go (present tense) out after every (i.e, not a one off) home game. :unsure:

Zim also said something above about him not being desperate to win at all costs and, for once, I agree with him. But I don't think that's a bad thing, and I don't think he ever was like that. I don't think I'd want a manger who is - Mourinho is like that and while he tends to achieve short term success he usually leaves a train wreck behind. I do think Wenger is too much of an idealist and wants to do things the 'right' way, if he was a bit more pragmatic we'd probably have won more over the last decade.

He is what he is and my take is he's always been like this. Maybe he's lost a little bit sharpness, he is getting older, but I don't think he's radically changed since he came to us. In fact, if anything that is one of the problems. Football has changed around us and Wenger hasn't been able to adapt and keep up. Which doesn't mean everything he's done everything wrong but the things which gave us an edge aren't there any more, now everyone uses the same or better fitness regimes, everyone has a worldwide scouting network. Wenger's USP isn't so 'U' any more.

Bottom line, to suggest he's indifferent to defeat is ludicrous. I refer you again to Dein's comments, they surely carry more weight than us speculating about his body language.

Nah he went to the beach once. Clearly he doesn't care.

[Letters]

And Letters what exactly is wrong with winning at all costs?
Ask Portsmouth. (Dein also talks about our finances during the stadium move).

I'm not talking about football style, but Wenger has always looked longer term and tried to balance short term competitiveness with long term financial stability. And I agree that at times he has erred on the side of caution. Dein talks about Wenger's approach in the transfer market too.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Again unless you are being a pedant (which you increasingly are....i know i asked you yesterday if you suffered from Aspergers jokingly, now i am genuinely concerned) winning at all costs doesn't necessarily mean having to bankrupt your club in order so to do.

It means approaching each game and assessing the strengths and weaknesses of your opposition in order to use your strengths to overcome them.

It doesn't mean micro managing the game to the point of Mourinho where he used to castigate his players for showing a bit of skill.

But this is an aside, the point is that Wenger does not appear to be anywhere near as driven as he was before, i have stated that i think this down due to the circumstances he finds himself in and his age. These things can be gradual and subconscious, I am not saying Wenger is wilfully not putting the effort in.

[Kano]

Body language is not incredibly difficult to read, and there is no doubt you can tell when Wenger is agitated and when he isn't, and he is noticeably less agitated than he was.

I just have cause to doubt that he reacts that way now....and Kano of course his age is a factor it does have a deteriorating effect on his motivations, that and i have said the atmosphere he finds himself in.
Body language is also quite easy to misread too, unless you have studied psychology to a particularly high level. You can tell when someone is agitated but the reasons why remain elusive. But body language is far easier to read and assume if it helps add to an argument. Age can affect motivations but I haven't seen anyone question the passion of managers of a similar age. That's a big problem in this country - unless we see someone literally bursting their blood vessells, then we assume the blood runs cold in their veins.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We are currently in an era of football where the top managers are in the main all much younger men, because their drive to succeed is uninhibited by advancing years.
Van Gaal who you mentioned earlier, was one of the top managers in Europe and has won many, many trophies but he is being made to look like a Dinosaur now....because that will power to adapt your tactics and try different things is on the wane.
Body Language can be subtle but noticeable such as body movements, between whether someone has their arms folded or whether they are gesticulating.
All i am asking is at 66? is the motivation really there to adapt the way you approach things, or are you going to feel comfortable retaining the methods that served you so well as a younger man.

[Power n Glory]

Actions speak louder than words. The actions of Wenger is not of a man that is desperate to win and that should be the bare minimum requirement of the manager of Arsenal Football club. It's all very well David Dein saying that Wenger doesn't like losing, of course he doesn't, nobody likes losing but does Wenger have the absolute upmost desire to do all in his power to bring the glory days back to Arsenal. Wenger has everything he needs to succeed, if principles are holding him back then quite frankly that is a disgrace. Nobody is telling him to go out and buy a team of Messi's, nobody is telling him that we expect PL & CL titles every year, what people are telling him is that he is NOT doing enough and is NOT using his resources wisely to make Arsenal FC as competitive as they can be.

What gets me more than anything is his defiance and surprise at our routinely played out seasons, what does he expect? how can he honestly expect progress if he's not making fundamental changes himself?

The whole system at Arsenal at the top is rotten to the core, do they honestly expect the entire fanbase to sit their like lame ducks and accept it for what it is?

:gp: That's what it boils down to. How he feels about defeats isn’t that important and the debate is getting side tracked slightly. Whether he goes off and sulks for a few days doesn’t matter. Heck, that could be an excuse he tells his wife so he can stay a few days in a hotel with his bit on the side. :lol: It really doesn’t matter to be honest. How he copes with defeat is his business. It’s action after each defeat that’s important. I wouldn’t mind if he was all smiles after a loss but the team come out firing the next game we don’t repeat the same mistakes. But we keep seeing the same mistakes and Wenger even admitted the we’ve been conceding the same sort of goals all season. So why hasn’t it been addressed?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

One leads to another, unless you are a masochist....if defeat really cuts you that deep you will do everything in your power to avoid that feeling again.

[Özim]

I agree with the assertion that he's more use to losing now in his earlier days defeats were few and far between and big defeats were pretty much unheard of, in recent years we've taken some real beatings (beatings on the scale I'd never seen before the last 5-6 years) and have lost a lot more games than we use to, to some extent it's less of a shock when we win now.

I also agree his hunger isn't the same as when he arrived as a younger manager with plenty to prove, now he see's his role as much more than manager and financeare paramount to his idea of success, again I think he's much calmer in his interviews as well, almost indifferent until someone questions him on the problems.

As far as speaking in public is concerned, surely he must realise what he says is pretty much what the fans hear so to dismiss his comments as those only targeted at the press is ridiculous, I also think he's made some comments clearly aimed at the fans in the press so I don't agree that his words are just made to the press, he's talking about what he believes and thinks.

[Letters]

Again unless you are being a pedant (which you increasingly are....i know i asked you yesterday if you suffered from Aspergers jokingly, now i am genuinely concerned)
No you're not :rolleyes:

winning at all costs doesn't necessarily mean having to bankrupt your club in order so to do.
Well, it could do. It's pretty much the definition of the phrase. Surely the whole spirit of it is trying to succeed in the short term with no regard to the long term consequences.

It means approaching each game and assessing the strengths and weaknesses of your opposition in order to use your strengths to overcome them.
That isn't winning at all costs, that's what any manager should do as a matter of course.

But this is an aside, the point is that Wenger does not appear to be anywhere near as driven as he was before, i have stated that i think this down due to the circumstances he finds himself in and his age. These things can be gradual and subconscious, I am not saying Wenger is wilfully not putting the effort in.
I do think age is a factor, but I don't agree he isn't driven. Again, I defer to Dein's comments from 2 years ago which doesn't indicate any loss of desire to success. A loss of ability in the modern game, maybe.

[Kano]

One leads to another, unless you are a masochist....if defeat really cuts you that deep you will do everything in your power to avoid that feeling again.
Your ability to see or change when something is going wrong is completely different from your desire to do so.

[Letters]

:gp: That's what it boils down to. How he feels about defeats isn’t that important and the debate is getting side tracked slightly. Whether he goes off and sulks for a few days doesn’t matter. Heck, that could be an excuse he tells his wife so he can stay a few days in a hotel with his bit on the side. :lol: It really doesn’t matter to be honest. How he copes with defeat is his business. It’s action after each defeat that’s important. I wouldn’t mind if he was all smiles after a loss but the team come out firing the next game we don’t repeat the same mistakes. But we keep seeing the same mistakes and Wenger even admitted the we’ve been conceding the same sort of goals all season. So why hasn’t it been addressed?

:good:
That I agree with. In some ways it doesn't matter how much defeats hurt him, what matters is whether he's able to do anything about it and it seems he isn't.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Your ability to see or change when something is going wrong is completely different from your desire to do so.

I refer you to another poster who made the point that Wenger made at the weekend in his post match interview where he acknowledged that we were conceding the same kind of goals all season.

Now he has identified a problem, well you know he's not stupid, i know he's not stupid. If he can't identify a way to change that himself he would defer to someone he can, if he doesn't want to defer that issue to someone else it's not that important to him.

[Power n Glory]

Your ability to see or change when something is going wrong is completely different from your desire to do so.

It doesn’t take much to sign an outfield player in the summer. Make proper use of the budget. It’s not that complex.

[selassie]

:gp: That's what it boils down to. How he feels about defeats isn’t that important and the debate is getting side tracked slightly. Whether he goes off and sulks for a few days doesn’t matter. Heck, that could be an excuse he tells his wife so he can stay a few days in a hotel with his bit on the side. :lol: It really doesn’t matter to be honest. How he copes with defeat is his business. It’s action after each defeat that’s important. I wouldn’t mind if he was all smiles after a loss but the team come out firing the next game we don’t repeat the same mistakes. But we keep seeing the same mistakes and Wenger even admitted the we’ve been conceding the same sort of goals all season. So why hasn’t it been addressed?

:gp:

Exactly this, his demeanour after defeat is irrelevant, what is relevant is that he addresses what is going wrong, he's not doing that, it's as simple as that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It isn't irrelevant because it goes some way to explain why he isn't addressing what is going wrong.

He is either stupid, deluded or in a malaise.....i think most of us rule out stupid and deluded seems unlikely but even if it were it would suggest a depreciation of his faculties also related to age.

[Gooner23]

It isn't irrelevant because it goes some way to explain why he isn't addressing what is going wrong.

He is either stupid, deluded or in a malaise.....i think most of us rule out stupid and deluded seems unlikely but even if it were it would suggest a depreciation of his faculties also related to age.

Not so sure about that one!

[Kano]

I refer you to another poster who made the point that Wenger made at the weekend in his post match interview where he acknowledged that we were conceding the same kind of goals all season.

Now he has identified a problem, well you know he's not stupid, i know he's not stupid. If he can't identify a way to change that himself he would defer to someone he can, if he doesn't want to defer that issue to someone else it's not that important to him.

I refer to what I said before. His idea of rectifying the problem to the best of his current ability, or methods, doesn't correlate to his desire to do so. We all pick and choose ways of doing things, ignornig what may seem like the best option to others at times. It doesn't mean his choices are always right - clearly they aren't anymore - and it also doesn't mean he is purposely ignoring other things that he knows will improve things. If he doesn't believe in other methods - rightly or wrongly - then he is just as flawed as us all. Stubborness can be the downfall of quite a lot of men but it shouldn't detract from their desire to actually want the best end result.

[selassie]

It isn't irrelevant because it goes some way to explain why he isn't addressing what is going wrong.

He is either stupid, deluded or in a malaise.....i think most of us rule out stupid and deluded seems unlikely but even if it were it would suggest a depreciation of his faculties also related to age.

Sure it's not irrelevant if he believes nothing is wrong but then surely someone in his position with his experience can spot a trend if we as a team keep conceding cheap goals, keep on collapsing in title races etc

He's kind of stupid and deluded to believe that he can win stuff based on his idealistic principles but is too old to change hence why he/we as a football team are caught in this vicious circle.

[selassie]

I refer to what I said before. His idea of rectifying the problem to the best of his current ability, or methods, doesn't correlate to his desire to do so. We all pick and choose ways of doing things, ignornig what may seem like the best option to others at times. It doesn't mean his choices are always right - clearly they aren't anymore - and it also doesn't mean he is purposely ignoring other things that he knows will improve things. If he doesn't believe in other methods - rightly or wrongly - then he is just as flawed as us all. Stubborness can be the downfall of quite a lot of men but it shouldn't detract from their desire to actually want the best end result.

Yes I see what you are saying here Kano and it's a good point you have touched on and makes complete sense.

You have kind of gone into the grey areas on a matter which on face value is black and white.

I totally see your point though.

I think a lot of what you are saying is linked to Wenger basically have a free reign and doing as he pleases, in a well organised football club, the structure would be such that Wenger would have pressure and would be questioned on his methods so would be forced to change and forced to work off a different approach.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's very simple

If you know there is a problem but think the only option is to carry on as you are - you are either stupid or deluded, stupid we don't think he is and deluded would suggest a degradation in his mental acuity....which despite some of the insults on here in regards to Wenger is not apparently obvious.

When you come across a problem and don't solve it, it's either you don't know the solution, you think just carrying on the same way will cause the problem to iron itself out or you don't have the motivation to care about it.

And like i say if Wenger doesn't know the solution, the option is there to defer to people who do but it is apparent he has not done so.

[Özim]

I refer to what I said before. His idea of rectifying the problem to the best of his current ability, or methods, doesn't correlate to his desire to do so. We all pick and choose ways of doing things, ignornig what may seem like the best option to others at times. It doesn't mean his choices are always right - clearly they aren't anymore - and it also doesn't mean he is purposely ignoring other things that he knows will improve things. If he doesn't believe in other methods - rightly or wrongly - then he is just as flawed as us all. Stubborness can be the downfall of quite a lot of men but it shouldn't detract from their desire to actually want the best end result.

That may be and I would buy that, but after 10 years of almost no success any normal person would have changed their methods and adapted to try and find the solution to our lack of success, the fact he hasn't points to a lack of desire to do so or a different perception of success.

Stubborness is understandable in the shorter term, but over a decade to not have succeeded and to stick to the same methodology suggests delusions or an indifference to success on the pitch in favour of success off it.

In addition he's not rectifying a problem to the best of his ability, he's choosing to withold spending in the hope something changes, for example injured players staying fit or the team miraculously improving without any real changes.

[Letters]

I refer to what I said before. His idea of rectifying the problem to the best of his current ability, or methods, doesn't correlate to his desire to do so. We all pick and choose ways of doing things, ignornig what may seem like the best option to others at times. It doesn't mean his choices are always right - clearly they aren't anymore - and it also doesn't mean he is purposely ignoring other things that he knows will improve things. If he doesn't believe in other methods - rightly or wrongly - then he is just as flawed as us all. Stubborness can be the downfall of quite a lot of men but it shouldn't detract from their desire to actually want the best end result.
He seems quite stubborn and principled. Again, look at Dein's comments about him not wanting to sign a player in a position where he already has an up and coming player whose development he doesn't want to stifle. It's admirable in a way but given how here today, gone tomorrow modern players are it's probably not the most pragmatic approach.

[Kano]

Yes I see what you are saying here Kano and it's a good point you have touched on and makes complete sense.

You have kind of gone into the grey areas on a matter which on face value is black and white.

I totally see your point though.

I think a lot of what you are saying is linked to Wenger basically have a free reign and doing as he pleases, in a well organised football club, the structure would be such that Wenger would have pressure and would be questioned on his methods so would be forced to change and forced to work off a different approach.
It definitely does exist in the grey areas, which is boring and inconclusive but ultimately that is where nearly almost everything ends up. We all do it - I’m just as quick to think something can be solved through A, B and C and the reason why is we want to solve problems. Believe we all have the answers. It belies our own intelligence to think we can’t come up with the correct solution. It also make discussions far more engaging, rather than everyone shrugging and saying ‘I don’t know’ and staring blankly at each other. But if we get right down to it, the sad, dull truth is that most situations rarely involve black and white answers.

[Özim]

He seems quite stubborn and principled. Again, look at Dein's comments about him not wanting to sign a player in a position where he already has an up and coming player whose development he doesn't want to stifle. It's admirable in a way but given how here today, gone tomorrow modern players are it's probably not the most pragmatic approach.

He's definitely stubborn, but even the most stubborn manager would realise things need to change after 10 years of repeated collapses and failures in the biggest competitions.

I don't for one minute believe he doesn't know what he's doing, I believe he values financial success above on the field success and that's how he measures his performance. Whilst he would like to win, there's no doubting that, he's happy enough not winning but making the club a profit and qualifying for the CL, he deems this as success thus in his head he is winning.

[Marc Overmars]

Not so sure about that one!

I agree.

He's as deluded as they come. Actions speak louder the words and we have seen precious little from him to suggest he has seriously acknowledged the problems his teams have faced for many years now.

[mastermind84]

Gotta love internet psychologists.

[Kano]

That may be and I would buy that, but after 10 years of almost no success any normal person would have changed their methods and adapted to try and find the solution to our lack of success, the fact he hasn't points to a lack of desire to do so or a different perception of success.

Stubborness is understandable in the shorter term, but over a decade to not have succeeded and to stick to the same methodology suggests delusions or an indifference to success on the pitch in favour of success off it.

In addition he's not rectifying a problem to the best of his ability, he's choosing to withold spending in the hope something changes, for example injured players staying fit or the team miraculously improving without any real changes.

Like almost everything else on here, it comes down to perceptions. How frustrated you are with the manager, how your own logic system works and how you interpret the information at hand. There are lots of little divots and angles to approach this topic on but we'll all end up on whatever side suits our own demeanour I guess.

[Letters]

I don't for one minute believe he doesn't know what he's doing, I believe he values financial success above on the field success and that's how he measures his performance.
Nah, I wouldn't go that far. But he clearly won't ever put the club in financial peril for the sake of short term success (again, look at Dein's interview where he's candid about our finances during parts of the stadium move). But now the money is there and while he has started spending it on people like Ozil and Sanchez he should have done more last summer and it's cost us. I think he was right not to sign another Welbeck but he needed to land a big name striker and failed to. That's what has cost us, or one of the things, and while signing a top striker isn't like going down the shop for some milk, that's why he gets the big bucks.

[Özim]

Nah, I wouldn't go that far. But he clearly won't ever put the club in financial peril for the sake of short term success (again, look at Dein's interview where he's candid about our finances during parts of the stadium move). But now the money is there and while he has started spending it on people like Ozil and Sanchez he should have done more last summer and it's cost us. I think he was right not to sign another Welbeck but he needed to land a big name striker and failed to. That's what has cost us, or one of the things, and while signing a top striker isn't like going down the shop for some milk, that's why he gets the big bucks.

He doesn't need to put the club in financial peril at all, he just needs to spend on the players we need with the money we have.

I honestly don't see the proof that winning is everything to him, we've totally collapsed this season and he's really not appeared that bothered if I'm honest, last summer he had plenty of time and money to find someone, any other manager would have found someone if they'd had all summer, he signs just a keeper, that's not the actions of someone wanting to win everything after seeing his team fall short the previous year.

Every summer it's largely the same, 1 or 2 signings etc etc, not easy to find the players...why is that? Next summer of course is the Euro's so his excuse will be that players are with their countries and then that the price is inflated due to the Euro's etc etc, I can see what's going to happen, one or two signings who aren't what we need and don't improve the team the way it needs to be improved.

[Letters]

Yeah, again, whether he's bothered isn't in dispute. I've posted the proof, you continue to ignore it if you like.
Whether he's able to do anything about it is the key point.

And yes, he doesn't need to put us in financial peril now - that's why I'm judging him by different standards now to the ones when the stadium move required some belt tightening (again, the proof of that is in the Dein interview).

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

An interview with Dein is not definitive proof, he is advocating for Wenger so of course he's going to go on about how driven he is whether that's the case now or not.

I've also stated this malaise is also subconscious I don't believe Wenger is wilfully lacking intensity, but when he sees men over twenty years younger than him who are the trailblazers that he once was at the top of European football, a fixed belief that money dominates the sport and a job security that is unfitting for someone who has not won a top trophy for over a decade and then you see press conferences where he seems more resigned than angry and it really is not controversial to suggest that he's not as driven as he was between 2001 and 2005.

Does he still get frustrated when he doesn't win, would he love to win Arsenal another league title before he goes? I'm in no doubt that he does. But I honestly think the idea of leaving Arsenal without winning another league title is disappointing it wouldn't be devestating to him.

[Letters]

It might not be definitive proof but the insight from a man who knows him, worked with him for years and still sees him regularly surely has to be a better indicator than vague assertions from people like us who have never met him based on vague inferences from body language or things he says.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You also have to ask yourself what's logically the more likely?

And ask yourself, 8million a year contract, a board that is unfailingly supportive, not getting any younger and probably know you are a step behind the innovation of many much younger than you.....are you really going to be as driven as you were earlier on in your career?.

Especially when whatever else happens you can say you laid the groundwork and made it possible for any man that follows you to succeed?.

[Power n Glory]

He seems quite stubborn and principled. Again, look at Dein's comments about him not wanting to sign a player in a position where he already has an up and coming player whose development he doesn't want to stifle. It's admirable in a way but given how here today, gone tomorrow modern players are it's probably not the most pragmatic approach.

I think his desire to see players develop overrides logic sometimes. After all these years going without a trophy, I'm surprised he's still so patient and hasn't just gone for the title. He's in his final years as well so it's even more surprising. We'll never know for sure but I think development and seeing progress trumps silverware. I don't know. I just figure he must have a different pecking order when it comes to achievements and gains more satisfaction from development over silverware.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think his desire to see players develop overrides logic sometimes. After all these years going without a trophy, I'm surprised he's still so patient and hasn't just gone for the title. He's in his final years as well so it's even more surprising. We'll never know for sure but I think development and seeing progress trumps silverware. I don't know. I just figure he must have a different pecking order when it comes to achievements and gains more satisfaction from development over silverware.

But you even have to ask yourself how many players has he actually developed compared to what he used to?

[Power n Glory]

But you even have to ask yourself how many players has he actually developed compared to what he used to?

What players did he develop in the past that we can actually compare?

[Özim]

Yeah, again, whether he's bothered isn't in dispute. I've posted the proof, you continue to ignore it if you like.
Whether he's able to do anything about it is the key point.

And yes, he doesn't need to put us in financial peril now - that's why I'm judging him by different standards now to the ones when the stadium move required some belt tightening (again, the proof of that is in the Dein interview).

I'm not sure that's conclusive proof, I'm sure Dein doesn't go out for dinner with him after every match, it's most likely an off the cuff statement largely based on how things were when Dein was part of the club.

Dein was as good as thrown out of the club, I'm not sure Wenger would have been able to continue his relationship as normal after this happened bearing in mind who he was working for (people who couldn't stand Dein). Looking at the way he is now and how he reacts to losing without responding in any positive manner or showing any signs that he's willing to change things, says a lot more IMO....so does the way he defends 4th place and the way he praises his players regardless. Not the actions of someone who's angry and upset about losing to me.

As for the money, again there's no proof, there was something posted the other day about Dein saying Wenger had 30 million every season after the stadium move, don't think he used that if that was indeed the case, once again can't be proved either way.

let's not forget that before the stadium move we were told there would be money for a world class team.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

In fairness I think he has changed his approach to games, but it's taken him so long and it's been such a slow process it generally means no overall progress is made.

For instance we do take a different approach to playing some of the bigger sides, and the results have been mixed but it is an improvement upon total capitulation every time we play a big side.

[Power n Glory]

If Dein and Wenger are still close, I don't get why Dein hasn't set him straight about needing new signings. It's odd.

[Özim]

The problem is these guys are friends with Wenger so they won't say a bad word about him, what they actually think might be different. I'd be amazed if Dein actually thinks Wenger is doing a good job, he was a man who wanted to see Arsenal at the top of the game and yet he we are 3rd/4th every season, getting nowhere in the CL, not a great achievement for a club the size of Arsenal.

I'd suggest that if Dein were there Wenger would probably feel more pressure to sign players that he does now and we'd probably have a better chance of moving forward on the pitch.

The guys who aren't friends with Wenger as such, the former players come out and say it how it is TBH, so many of them have now they can't be all wrong.

[Özim]

In fairness I think he has changed his approach to games, but it's taken him so long and it's been such a slow process it generally means no overall progress is made.

For instance we do take a different approach to playing some of the bigger sides, and the results have been mixed but it is an improvement upon total capitulation every time we play a big side.

If he has made changes they're very subtle because despite the odd decent result against a top team (albeit most of the time in a period when they aren't performing well) the collapses still take place and we don't progress in terms of points.

I just don't think enough has changed, both in terms of personnel and style of play, there's some obvious things Wenger could try, if he showed some inclination to try something different he might get an easier time, in the last 10 years though, we've largely stuck to the tried and tested formula that fails to achieve success every season.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If Dein and Wenger are still close, I don't get why Dein hasn't set him straight about needing new signings. It's odd.

Hmmm to be fair, Dein did say that he'd often try to reassure Wenger when he worked with him that if he wanted to sign a player that he'd do it for him, but Wenger would prevaricate.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If he has made changes they're very subtle because despite the odd decent result against a top team (albeit most of the time in a period when they aren't performing well) the collapses still take place and we don't progress in terms of points.

I just don't think enough has changed, both in terms of personnel and style of play, there's some obvious things Wenger could try, if he showed some inclination to try something different he might get an easier time, in the last 10 years though, we've largely stuck to the tried and tested formula that fails to achieve success every season.

Well no there isn't a progress in terms of points, all i pointed to was that there is a clear difference in the way we approach big games. The Man City away game last season, Bayern Munich this season etc.

Usually we tend to then drop silly points against nothing sides if we improve against bigger sides.

[Letters]

You also have to ask yourself what's logically the more likely?

And ask yourself, 8million a year contract, a board that is unfailingly supportive, not getting any younger and probably know you are a step behind the innovation of many much younger than you.....are you really going to be as driven as you were earlier on in your career?.

Especially when whatever else happens you can say you laid the groundwork and made it possible for any man that follows you to succeed?.

I think there's something in that, but Dein's comments show he does still care deeply.
I agree with PnG too, sometimes Wenger's idealism get in the way - he seems unwaveringly loyal to his players and in this day and age it's not reciprocated, we could do with him being more ruthless at times rather than persisting with people like Diaby.

[Letters]

I'm not sure that's conclusive proof
There can't be any conclusive proof on something like this, but Dein's insights on Wenger and statements on the money situation have a lot more weight than yours or mine.
And if you're going to just flat out accuse him of lying so you can continue to believe what you've already decided to be true then fine, there's no real point in discussing it further.
It's easy to prove yourself right if you ignore anything which contradicts what you've already decided.

[Power n Glory]

Hmmm to be fair, Dein did say that he'd often try to reassure Wenger when he worked with him that if he wanted to sign a player that he'd do it for him, but Wenger would prevaricate.

I know. That's on record and when Dein was at the club. I'm talking about since Dein's departure. If they still meet and talk after every game then what's the conversation about? Why hasn't Dein set him straight about transfers and spending?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well I thought the implication of what I said was clear enough. That he probably thinks if he couldn't convince him to spend money when he was involved in the club, what chance now that he's not.

Plus I think people who go on about David Dein are crying for the moon. I also would be interested to see what the spending will be like under a new manager, because i remember well enough that George Graham had to pry money away from Peter Hill Wood's clenched fist (in hindsight the smart move on Hill Wood's part).

[Power n Glory]

Well I thought the implication of what I said was clear enough. That he probably thinks if he couldn't convince him to spend money when he was involved in the club, what chance now that he's not.

Plus I think people who go on about David Dein are crying for the moon. I also would be interested to see what the spending will be like under a new manager, because i remember well enough that George Graham had to pry money away from Peter Hill Wood's clenched fist (in hindsight the smart move on Hill Wood's part).

I don’t know what you know about Dein but reports say he was the one that would assure Wenger it’s ok to spend during the Highbury days. We were never big spenders and it’s reported that Wenger would always be cautious but Dein was the one that would assure him to go for the deal. That’s why it worked.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But that's the point, we didn't go for the players.....that's what Dein was saying that he used to try and persuade Wenger to go for signings that he needed but more often than not Wenger would prevaricate and end up doing nothing.

This is what i mean by crying for the moon, when Dein was still at the club, the signings that might have cost the club more just didn't happen. Yes there were implications of cost in regards to moving to the stadium, but also Wenger himself used to worry and worry about making big signings.

[fakeyank]

Signings cant and wont help Wenger.

This man is as clueless as it gets regarding tactics and motivation. If it came down to it, I am sure he cannot motivate a pack of hungry lions to go for a hunt..

[Marc Overmars]

2nd half of the season table. :lol:

http://i.imgur.com/l7timm9.jpg

[Özim]

There can't be any conclusive proof on something like this, but Dein's insights on Wenger and statements on the money situation have a lot more weight than yours or mine.
And if you're going to just flat out accuse him of lying so you can continue to believe what you've already decided to be true then fine, there's no real point in discussing it further.
It's easy to prove yourself right if you ignore anything which contradicts what you've already decided.

Wasn't it Dein who came out with the can't have a world class stadium without a world class team in it either? Now I think the guy was good for Arsenal as he had lots of contacts and wanted bigger things for the club but I think he'll say whatever he thinks he should say rather than the gospel truth (if he said there was plenty of money it would make Wenger look like a fool and he's great friends with him so he's hardly going to say that) and as far as Wenger being in a bad mood I'm sure he was some of the time back in the day.

Besides the board and the guy's at the top are famed for now being entirely honest about things, it's part and parcel of being in that position apparently.

Incidentally I'm not accusing him of lying, I just think it's clear that the guys at the top know what they should and shouldn't say, they're well versed in this, well some of them anyway and Dein was one of the smarter ones for sure.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

2nd half of the season table. :lol:

http://i.imgur.com/l7timm9.jpg

That's hard to look at, i am feeling dizzy....i think i might collapse

[Özim]

2nd half of the season table. :lol:

http://i.imgur.com/l7timm9.jpg

If you showed Wenger that he'd find an excuse, like bad decisions, injuries, too many games etc etc.

Wenger is a great one for stats except the ones that really matter.

[fakeyank]

If you showed Wenger that he'd find an excuse, like bad decisions, injuries, too many games etc etc.

Wenger is a great one for stats except the ones that really matter.

You want to know Wengers excuse (assuming Leicester win the title)? "We beat Leicester home and away last season, so we are not far away. Injuries did not help us as Cazorla, Rosicky and Welbeck were not available for almost the entire campaign. If we have fully fit squad to chose from in the new season, we will make top top effort."

He may also add our statistic of going the last 8-9 games unbeaten towards the end of this season. I know there are still games left but with the pressure off, I can see us going on a run. If inevitably we do, add some shit about that to the above part as well.

Rinse. Repeat.

[Özim]

You want to know Wengers excuse (assuming Leicester win the title)? "We beat Leicester home and away last season, so we are not far away. Injuries did not help us as Cazorla, Rosicky and Welbeck were not available for almost the entire campaign. If we have fully fit squad to chose from in the new season, we will make top top effort."

He may also add our statistic of going the last 8-9 games unbeaten towards the end of this season. I know there are still games left but with the pressure off, I can see us going on a run. If inevitably we do, add some shit about that to the above part as well.

Rinse. Repeat.

Pretty much spot on, he always harps on about the unbeaten runs when the season is as good as over, in his eyes they're proof of our quality, he just ignores everything that has gone on before it.

Agree about the Leicester results too, he probably thinks we can go toe to toe with them because we beat them twice and only bad luck denied us.

[Power n Glory]

But that's the point, we didn't go for the players.....that's what Dein was saying that he used to try and persuade Wenger to go for signings that he needed but more often than not Wenger would prevaricate and end up doing nothing.

This is what i mean by crying for the moon, when Dein was still at the club, the signings that might have cost the club more just didn't happen. Yes there were implications of cost in regards to moving to the stadium, but also Wenger himself used to worry and worry about making big signings.

Where did Dein say that? I’m not talking about signing massive star players either. Just the basics of what this team require and not going into the season without adequate cover. There was a difference to how we went about our business.

Dein was there when we went for Campbell, Wiltord, Pires, Giberto, Rosicky and we didn’t dither. We just went in and got them.

[Letters]

Signings cant and wont help Wenger.

This man is as clueless as it gets regarding tactics and motivation. If it came down to it, I am sure he cannot motivate a pack of hungry lions to go for a hunt..

Well, that's obviously bollox as since we've had folding money to spend we've won 2 FA Cups. Had we signed a top striker last summer I think we'd have been champions this season.
Definitely a lot closer. But he does need a strong captain out there as motivation has never been his forte.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You want to know Wengers excuse (assuming Leicester win the title)? "We beat Leicester home and away last season, so we are not far away. Injuries did not help us as Cazorla, Rosicky and Welbeck were not available for almost the entire campaign. If we have fully fit squad to chose from in the new season, we will make top top effort."

He may also add our statistic of going the last 8-9 games unbeaten towards the end of this season. I know there are still games left but with the pressure off, I can see us going on a run. If inevitably we do, add some shit about that to the above part as well.

Rinse. Repeat.

Of course but by the same token I defy you find any manager who is going to say "well I'm putting my hands up to this, Leicester had a fantastic season and showed amazing consistency but there is no excusing the fact that we did the double over them and yet finished so far behind them. The players went into certain games just assuming that they had to turn up to win and we ended up losing because I did very little to check that complacency. I did not rotate my squad well so we managed to pick up a lot of injuries as well. I have instilled in my team a sense of victimisation when decisions don't go for us failing to see that's exactly why Chelsea have performed so badly this season. But most importantly I did not spend money on an outfield player when it was sensible to do so preferring to rely on players who are well past their best and prone to injury out of a sense of loyalty. The fact is at 66 it is untenable for me to try and manage every aspect of the club from a football sense, and it's clear that my coaching staff are not being given a free hand to do their jobs and my scouting team have long past their sell by date".

[Letters]

Pretty much spot on, he always harps on about the unbeaten runs when the season is as good as over, in his eyes they're proof of our quality, he just ignores everything that has gone on before it.

Agree about the Leicester results too, he probably thinks we can go toe to toe with them because we beat them twice and only bad luck denied us.

Yeah! Wenger's a ****! What a ****! He's such a ****!



Am I doing this right? :unsure:

:rolleyes:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well, that's obviously bollox as since we've had folding money to spend we've won 2 FA Cups. Had we signed a top striker last summer I think we'd have been champions this season.
Definitely a lot closer. But he does need a strong captain out there as motivation has never been his forte.

If you are linking what we've spent to the FA cup success than its cost us £140 million over two seasons to get those FA cups. And actually I'm not convinced a striker on its own would have done it for us.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Where did Dein say that? I’m not talking about signing massive star players either. Just the basics of what this team require and not going into the season without adequate cover. There was a difference to how we went about our business.

Dein was there when we went for Campbell, Wiltord, Pires, Giberto, Rosicky and we didn’t dither. We just went in and got them.

I could give you an even bigger list of the players we didn't sign when Dein was there.

Partly for financial reasons partly because of Wenger dithering. He was a ditherer when Dein was there and he's a ditherer now that Dein has gone and there isn't a great deal of difference. Or did I just imagine us going into the season 2005/2006 having not replaced Vieira?.

[Letters]

Better players help you in big games, we had 8 years of 'austerity', the minute we started signing players like Ozil then Sanchez we started winning trophies about.
It might have been a co-incidence, I guess, but big players clearly help, as would a striker have this year - we're not scoring enough goals so obviously that would have helped. Would it have been enough? Dunno, maybe not, but it was top of most people's shopping lists for last summer.

[Özim]

Yeah! Wenger's a ****! What a ****! He's such a ****!



Am I doing this right? :unsure:

:rolleyes:

It's not my fault he's always full of excuses and points to the ridiculous at to why we're good enough, short unbeaten runs at the end of the season when we're out of everything don't prove a lot, they only prove we can perform when the pressure is off which is no solution to our problems of lacking bottle at the business end of the season.

Maybe you should start looking at Wenger and they way he handles himself rather than going off on one, he uses the same material every season and every season it goes wrong, you tell me why he never learns his lesson....is it because he's a bumbling idiot after all?

I really don't understand how someone can be so blinkered for so long and never learns from mistakes and yet is supposedly super intelligent, do you?

[Munchies]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cf7H3gJXIAA3F09.jpg

PL table since the new year

[fakeyank]

Well, that's obviously bollox as since we've had folding money to spend we've won 2 FA Cups. Had we signed a top striker last summer I think we'd have been champions this season.
Definitely a lot closer. But he does need a strong captain out there as motivation has never been his forte.

Please dont parade the FA cup as a sign of success for a club of our size and resources. Money definitely helps, but money in the right person would help even more. Sure, the FA cups helped and offered false promise to us but lets not pretend that its a major trophy. Portsmouth and Wigan have won 2 in the last 10 years, so..

A lot of my criticism of Wenger is hyperbole, if you compare it to all managers currently operating as a manager in football. It is not hyperbole when you compare him to other top managers with the resources he has at his disposal.

[Power n Glory]

I could give you an even bigger list of the players we didn't sign when Dein was there.

Partly for financial reasons partly because of Wenger dithering. He was a ditherer when Dein was there and he's a ditherer now that Dein has gone and there isn't a great deal of difference. Or did I just imagine us going into the season 2005/2006 having not replaced Vieira?.

If you want to pluck names out thin air you can. Cesc was the plan for Vieira's replacment but we signed Hleb, Rosicky, Ade, Theo, Diaby that season. Look at the seasons where there was no Dein or Ivan around.

For starters, I'm not saying Wenger didn't dither but Dein helped him come to decisions quickly and went out on got the players. What do you think Dein did whilst here? I can't imagine him botching up the Suarez, Higuain deals and other targets we were linked with since his departure. I'm not trying to paint a bigger picture of his role at the club but it's worth reading up on what people said about his role whilst here.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

So you don't remember the protracted Julio Baptista saga then?.

I think Dein over sells his own importance, and frankly to anyone who wants him back. This is the man who brought Kroenke and the even bigger blight of Usmanov to our club, he should be persona non grata at the club just for that.

[fakeyank]

Of course but by the same token I defy you find any manager who is going to say "well I'm putting my hands up to this, Leicester had a fantastic season and showed amazing consistency but there is no excusing the fact that we did the double over them and yet finished so far behind them. The players went into certain games just assuming that they had to turn up to win and we ended up losing because I did very little to check that complacency. I did not rotate my squad well so we managed to pick up a lot of injuries as well. I have instilled in my team a sense of victimisation when decisions don't go for us failing to see that's exactly why Chelsea have performed so badly this season. But most importantly I did not spend money on an outfield player when it was sensible to do so preferring to rely on players who are well past their best and prone to injury out of a sense of loyalty. The fact is at 66 it is untenable for me to try and manage every aspect of the club from a football sense, and it's clear that my coaching staff are not being given a free hand to do their jobs and my scouting team have long past their sell by date".

The difference between Wenger and other managers is that he has been here so long, a decade of which he has continuously underachieved. May be its time for some honesty.

[Power n Glory]

So you don't remember the protracted Julio Baptista saga then?.

I think Dein over sells his own importance, and frankly to anyone who wants him back. This is the man who brought Kroenke and the even bigger blight of Usmanov to our club, he should be persona non grata at the club just for that.

Dein doesn't promote his own importance. It's other people around the club that promote his importance. Read around. Surprising to even be having this debate. We also ended up getting Baptista on loan. Do your research and look at the time Wenger doing Dein's job.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

All I'm saying is that there isn't a great deal of difference between squad strengthening then and now, we consistently didn't strengthen enough even when Dein was here and often the money we received for transfers vastly outweighed what we spent.

[Power n Glory]

That's putting too much on Wenger and taking away too much from Dein's role. I'll trust the opinion of people close to the club.

[Munchies]

Guys, Kante has a £20m release clause!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3538609/Leicester-midfielder-N-Golo-Kante-thought-available-20million-PSG-Arsenal-Tottenham-Chelsea-chase-him.html

[fakeyank]

Guys, Kante has a £20m release clause!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3538609/Leicester-midfielder-N-Golo-Kante-thought-available-20million-PSG-Arsenal-Tottenham-Chelsea-chase-him.html

He will be a great Liverpool, Chelsea, Utd or Tottenham player.

[Globalgunner]

We dont need Kante TBF. We already have 2 decent DM in Coq and Elmo. If we want to bring someone else in he should be a powerhouse DM, not another small mobile type.
What wee need is another manager. Will Kante stop us dithering about the opponents box for 70 out of 90 mins, especially not when hes hooked off for Ramsey or Wilshere after 65mins...or is it 72

[selassie]

Guys, Kante has a £20m release clause!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3538609/Leicester-midfielder-N-Golo-Kante-thought-available-20million-PSG-Arsenal-Tottenham-Chelsea-chase-him.html

We won't be going near him, he's too obvious a signing for Wenger.

[Letters]

Please dont parade the FA cup as a sign of success for a club of our size and resources. Money definitely helps, but money in the right person would help even more. Sure, the FA cups helped and offered false promise to us but lets not pretend that its a major trophy. Portsmouth and Wigan have won 2 in the last 10 years, so.
You keep bringing that fact out of your arse as though that proves something. Leicester look like they'll win the league this year, does that devalue it?
The FA Cup is a cup competition so smaller sides winning it is more probable than in the league but those two instances are very much the exception, not the rule.

The FA Cup isn't what it was, I'll give you that. And there is no objective measure of what a 'major' trophy is but for those of us who were brought up in England it's still a fairly big deal (those on here disputing that were doing cartwheels 2 years ago when we won it, they're now rapidly back-peddling to suit their agenda) and worldwide it's recognised as probably the biggest domestic Cup competition.


A lot of my criticism of Wenger is hyperbole, if you compare it to all managers currently operating as a manager in football. It is not hyperbole when you compare him to other top managers with the resources he has at his disposal.
I think the point is he's only had those resources for a couple of years. Before that while I agree he could have spent more our finances were never at the same level as Chelsea, City or Utd. And while that doesn't absolve him of all blame, he should be judged by different criteria now we have the money to properly compete. This year is when I have finally snapped with him, the league was an open goal this year and we've messed it up. But I still don't think he deserves the level of abuse he's getting on here, it does seem out of proportion to how things have gone. Literally last year we finished 3rd and retained the FA Cup. This year we've failed to kick on and for that he should be sacked, but I don't think it warrants the level of vitriol I see from some.

[Niall_Quinn]

Good grief! Could everyone please take 2 minutes to post the following:

"Wenger is a top, top, top manager because he won the FA Cup which is a major trophy."

I think it will help. Thanks.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's an internet forum Letters, people don't conduct discourse the way they might in public.

I think what you are seeing people saying is that Wenger is making exactly the same mistakes regardless of whether he's had money or not, and that it is highly likely that even if we had been on a more equal footing with City, United and Chelsea financially that the results would not have been much better.

And when you see examples of managers who are able to produce more with modest economic spending power, whilst there is a correlation between spending and success it seems more that Wenger has been using it as an excuse to hide behind.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger is a top, top, top manager because he won the FA Cup which is a major trophy.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger is a top, top, top manager because he won the FA Cup which is a major trophy.

:gp:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:gp:

Are you having a personality breakdown?

[Niall_Quinn]

It's an internet forum Letters, people don't conduct discourse the way they might in public.

I think what you are seeing people saying is that Wenger is making exactly the same mistakes regardless of whether he's had money or not, and that it is highly likely that even if we had been on a more equal footing with City, United and Chelsea financially that the results would not have been much better.

And when you see examples of managers who are able to produce more with modest economic spending power, whilst there is a correlation between spending and success it seems more that Wenger has been using it as an excuse to hide behind.

I'm exactly the same in real life as on the Internet. It would be too complicated to keep track of things otherwise. When people ask me what I think about Wenger I say he's a stubborn old goat and a major fool who shoots himself in both feet every season. That's because it's true. We all KNOW it's true but not all of us want to ACCEPT it's true.

[Niall_Quinn]

Are you having a personality breakdown?

Not yet, but I don't rule it out.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger is a top, top, top manager because he won the FA Cup which is a major trophy.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Not yet, but I don't rule it out.

Excellent, not necessarily a bad thing it can help you have many varied and interesting conversations without having to actually talk to other people.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger is a top, top, top manager because he won the FA Cup which is a major trophy.

:gp:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm exactly the same in real life as on the Internet. It would be too complicated to keep track of things otherwise. When people ask me what I think about Wenger I say he's a stubborn old goat and a major fool who shoots himself in both feet every season. That's because it's true. We all KNOW it's true but not all of us want to ACCEPT it's true.

I am largely the same, but some people see it as a way of venting

I'm just as misanthropic and nihilistic in my attitude in real life.

[Letters]

Wenger is a top, top, top manager because he won the FA Cup which is a major trophy.

Wenger :bow:

[Letters]

See? Isn't this more fun? :cool:

[Power n Glory]

See? Isn't this more fun? :cool:

:gp:

[Marc Overmars]

Wenger is a top, top, top manager because he won the FA Cup which is a major trophy.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Bah....sterile platitudes

[Letters]

Bah....sterile platitudes

Your face is a sterile platitude :p

[Munchies]

Wenger is a top, top, top, top, top , top , top manager because he won the FA Cup which is a major trophy.

[GP]

The FA Cup is a top, top, top manager because he won Wenger who is a major trophy.

[fakeyank]

Wenger is the greatest manager of all time. Give him a new contract.

[Globalgunner]

Wenger is a top, top, top, top, top , top , top manager because he won the FA Cup which is a major trophy. (twice in a row in fact) If not for Watford cheating he would have had a hattrick.
All hail Wenger :bow::bow:

[Letters]

Wenger is the greatest Arsenal manager of all time. Give him a new contract.
Pretty much ##

[GP]

I don't care for GOB.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wenger is a great manager, because there is nothing better than wearing an oversized strait jacket and shifting on your seat in the dugout like you've got worms

Wenger is a great manager, because 4th place is a bigger achievement than the premier league and the champions league.

Wenger is a great manager, because buying players when it's abundantly clear that the players you've got in that position aren't good enough is a form of cheating.

Wenger is a great manager, because he "almost" signed every big player currently playing in European football

Wenger is a great manager, because Ty from Arsenal Fan TV says so and that guy is basically a genius

[fakeyank]

TY :lol:

Loved it when that other old geezer who wants wenger gone points to Ty and says "Look at him.. the Gazidis dream team!"

:haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

This is great. All we have to do now is promise never to look at the scores and I believe happiness can be had by all. A brave new Wenger Wonderland. Maybe even Ty will sign up here, if he hasn't done so already.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger is a great manager, because there is nothing better than wearing an oversized strait jacket and shifting on your seat in the dugout like you've got worms

Wenger is a great manager, because 4th place is a bigger achievement than the premier league and the champions league.

Wenger is a great manager, because buying players when it's abundantly clear that the players you've got in that position aren't good enough is a form of cheating.

Wenger is a great manager, because he "almost" signed every big player currently playing in European football

Wenger is a great manager, because Ty from Arsenal Fan TV says so and that guy is basically a genius

Agree with all of that. And let's have a look at the hard facts.

2004-05 Chavs (disqualified), Arsenal, Man Utd - Actual winners Arsenal
2005-06 Chavs (disqualified), Man Utd, Liverpool - Actual winners Man Utd
2006-07 Man Utd, Chavs (disqualified), Liverpool - Winners Man Utd
2007-08 Man Utd, Chavs (disqualified), Arsenal - Winners Man Utd
2008-09 Man Utd, Liverpool, Chavs (disqualified) - Winners Man Utd
2009-10 Chavs (disqualified), Man Utd, Arsenal - Actual winners Man Utd
2010-11 Man Utd, Chavs (disqualified), Gypos (disqualified) - Winners Man Utd
2011-12 Gypos (disqualified), Man Utd, Arsenal - Actual winners Man Utd
2012-13 Man Utd (disqualified because van Persie won it), Gypos (disqualified), Chavs (disqualified) - Actual winners Arsenal
2013-14 Gypos (disqualified), Liverpool, Chavs (disqualified) - Actual winners Liverpool
2014-15 Chavs (disqualified), Gypos (disqualified), Arsenal - Actual winners Arsenal

3 title wins over that period isn't bad. Only Ferguson has a better record and he's retired, leaving Wenger the most successful manager in the PL.

[fakeyank]

:haha:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Strangely enough Wenger actually is the most successful manager in the PL

[Niall_Quinn]

Strangely enough Wenger actually is the most successful manager in the PL

Well that just proves it even more.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Wenger is the greatest manager of all time. Give him a new contract.

http://www.hollywoodtake.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/2015/02/09/kanye-west-and-taylor-swift-2009-vmas.jpg?itok=fKKQu-yq

[Globalgunner]

Hey guys what happens if Pool win the Europa cup and City come 5th and win the CL. that could mean only 1st and 2nd in the EPL qualify for CL next season????. If we finish 3rd or 4th we are fked. Has anybody told Wenger?

[Marc Overmars]

Hey guys what happens if Pool win the Europa cup and City come 5th and win the CL. that could mean only 1st and 2nd in the EPL qualify for CL next season????. If we finish 3rd or 4th we are fked. Has anybody told Wenger?

We're definitely going to finish 2nd now.

[Niall_Quinn]

Hey guys what happens if Pool win the Europa cup and City come 5th and win the CL. that could mean only 1st and 2nd in the EPL qualify for CL next season????. If we finish 3rd or 4th we are fked. Has anybody told Wenger?

Wenger is a steely-eyed risk taker. If 4th is there to be had he's not going to let a couple of outside possibilities deter him. Fuck it, we can't be worrying about what ifs - let's just get the business done and secure that 4th spot. After that we let the chips fall where they may.

[Kano]

Hey guys what happens if Pool win the Europa cup and City come 5th and win the CL. that could mean only 1st and 2nd in the EPL qualify for CL next season????. If we finish 3rd or 4th we are fked. Has anybody told Wenger?

Well guys that scenario can't happen. Only fourth can be taken away. There would either be four or five teams in the CL.

[up the arse]

Well guys that scenario can't happen. Only fourth can be taken away. There would either be four or five teams in the CL.

Who says we'll finish forth??

[fakeyank]

Hey guys what happens if Pool win the Europa cup and City come 5th and win the CL. that could mean only 1st and 2nd in the EPL qualify for CL next season????. If we finish 3rd or 4th we are fked. Has anybody told Wenger?

Will save us the embarrassment of getting creamed in the CL every time we face a team that has half decent players. Probably a good thing, but I dont think they can take two places away.. and I cant see City winning it. They are super shite!

[Kano]

Who says we'll finish forth??

I didn't

[selassie]

Will save us the embarrassment of getting creamed in the CL every time we face a team that has half decent players. Probably a good thing, but I dont think they can take two places away.. and I cant see City winning it. They are super shite!

Aye, I honestly couldn't care less if we finish top 4 or not, makes no difference to us, it's not like we're in the market for CL level players and if we drop out so what, we never do anything in CL anyway.

[Munchies]

Wenger doing his press conference now, this line

Boss: "West Ham have beaten many big teams at home. We were not happy with the result but we showed resilience."

https://twitter.com/Arsenal/status/720889402595999744

:haha: :haha: :haha:

Blowing a 2 goal lead and getting wrecked by Andy Caroll is showing resilience eh

[Letters]

Aye, I honestly couldn't care less if we finish top 4 or not, makes no difference to us, it's not like we're in the market for CL level players
:blink:
What are Cech, Sanchez and Ozil then? :unsure:

[Power n Glory]

Wenger doing his press conference now, this line

Boss: "West Ham have beaten many big teams at home. We were not happy with the result but we showed resilience."

https://twitter.com/Arsenal/status/720889402595999744

:haha: :haha: :haha:

Blowing a 2 goal lead and getting wrecked by Andy Caroll is showing resilience eh

We were lucky to take a point because they beat us on the opening day.

[Power n Glory]

We were lucky to take a point because they beat us on the opening day.

Can't believe I said that. :lol:

Oh how we have fallen.

[Letters]

Blowing a 2 goal lead and getting wrecked by Andy Caroll is showing resilience eh
Well, no. But having had that happen we did at least get our shit together, equalize and get a point which is more than Spurs did there.

[GP]

Fucking frog cunt needs to die.

[Power n Glory]

Well, no. But having had that happen we did at least get our shit together, equalize and get a point which is more than Spurs did there.

Wenger is a top, top, top, top, top , top , top manager because he won the FA Cup which is a major trophy. :bow:

[Letters]

Can't believe I said that. :lol:

Oh how we have fallen.
I don't know about lucky but regardless of what happened on the opening day West Ham have been very solid at home this season. They lost 2 early games to Leicester and (bizarrely) Bournemouth and they haven't lost in the league since.
Going 2-0 up and then drawing is bad but on the other hand after collapsing to 3-2 we did at least get a point. Overall a draw there isn't a bad result.

In brief there are some positive and some negative aspects of the result, the mood is so sour right now though that everyone obsesses about the latter, any mention of anything else is met with howls of derision. Meh.

[Letters]

In brief there are some positive and some negative aspects of the result, the mood is so sour right now though that everyone obsesses about the latter, any mention of anything else is met with howls of derision. Meh.
:lol:
QED, PnG, QED...

[Letters]

Fucking frog cunt needs to die.

You lose points for omitting the word 'slowly' at the end.

[Power n Glory]

I don't know about lucky but regardless of what happened on the opening day West Ham have been very solid at home this season. They lost 2 early games to Leicester and (bizarrely) Bournemouth and they haven't lost in the league since.
Going 2-0 up and then drawing is bad but on the other hand after collapsing to 3-2 we did at least get a point. Overall a draw there isn't a bad result.

In brief there are some positive and some negative aspects of the result, the mood is so sour right now though that everyone obsesses about the latter, any mention of anything else is met with howls of derision. Meh.

West Ham have done well. Bilic is having a good season. He's been taken names so Wenger has a point. But we threw away a two goal lead and all goals we conceded are problems, he himself admits, have been there all season. We should have come away with 3 points.

[Letters]

West Ham have done well. Bilic is having a good season. He's been taken names so Wenger has a point. But we threw away a two goal lead and all goals we conceded are problems, he himself admits, have been there all season. We should have come away with 3 points.

See? That's a nice balanced view. It's not that hard :hug:

[Marc Overmars]

This team lost the right to claim brownie points for resilience months ago. It's meaningless.

[Power n Glory]

See? That's a nice balanced view. It's not that hard :hug:

I have no problem giving credit to West Ham and Bilic. They prepared well against a bigger team and it's what they have been doing all season. Why weren't we prepared for them is a more important question.

[Niall_Quinn]

This team lost the right to claim brownie points for resilience months ago. It's meaningless.

I think you need to view results in isolation. If you pretend we haven't collapsed catastrophically and we really needed three points to keep our slim, slim title chances alive (remember the win every game message Wenger was talking about), just forget all that and a draw is a decent result.

But then there's the old problem of blowing leads. So what we need to do is take each half in isolation. If we ignore the first half I think we showed great resilience in coming from a goal behind to get the draw. A point there is a pretty good result. Ignoring the Leicester and spud results, every point is precious at this stage of the season.

So all in all plenty of positives to take from the game.

[Kano]

This team lost the right to claim brownie points for resilience months ago. It's meaningless.

Exactly. From a man who stated we were still in the title race, that we need to win every game and to watch his team blow a 2-0 lead against a good team at a difficult ground was just a joke. No change in plan, even at half-time. You overcome those obstacles and then screw up the remainder of the course. Coming back to get a point was the bare minimum expected in that game. You don't get a pat on the back for salvaging something you've absolutely fucked up by your own ineptitude.

[Letters]

So all in all plenty of positives to take from the game.
Well, no. But why are your building straw men again? Who said there are plenty of positives?

We haven't blown leads that often this season really by the way.

[Globalgunner]

Well, no. But why are your building straw men again? Who said there are plenty of positives?

We haven't blown leads that often this season really by the way.

Every draw to a good team is a good result. The same good result against Pool with minutes to go. You keep dropping 2 ppoints in games and wonder why Leicester are 10 points ahead of us. Lets pray we dont keep accumulating heroic draws between now and the end of the season. On the other hand we could claim we went on an unbeaten run, so there.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

West Brom, Norwich, Liverpool, Swansea, Spurs and West Ham

Although I think more worrying is the amount of times we have conceded the first goal and ended up dropping points and not just this season but the last few, we have conceded the first goal nine times this season and gone on to win twice (both against Leicester).

[Letters]

West Brom, Norwich, Liverpool, Swansea, Spurs and West Ham.
Yep, that's the list I got. Although both the Spurs games see-sawed a bit and we were down to 10 men vs Spurs.
The West Brom, Norwich and Swansea ones weren't good enough. These things are going to happen though, it would be interesting to compare that against other sides.
Interesting about our bouncebackability, or lack thereof.

[Power n Glory]

Yep, that's the list I got. Although both the Spurs games see-sawed a bit and we were down to 10 men vs Spurs.
The West Brom, Norwich and Swansea ones weren't good enough. These things are going to happen though, it would be interesting to compare that against other sides.
Interesting about our bouncebackability, or lack thereof.

Is there a point to comparing them to other teams? If we're going to compare ourselves to previous title holders, they've had shit seasons and the managers have been sacked or will be. Also, we need to looking internally rather than outside to others because it's another 'disappointing' season and we're saying it's not good enough. It's unlikely Chelsea, City and Utd will have another season like this but we're more than likely to have a season where we're ending up in the 70 points bracket at the end of the season.

[Özim]

Wenger doing his press conference now, this line

Boss: "West Ham have beaten many big teams at home. We were not happy with the result but we showed resilience."

https://twitter.com/Arsenal/status/720889402595999744

:haha: :haha: :haha:

Blowing a 2 goal lead and getting wrecked by Andy Caroll is showing resilience eh

The guy wouldn't know what resilience is if it smacked him in the face, when we needed to be resilient and grind results out we bottled it and dropped points left right and center.

[Özim]

:blink:
What are Cech, Sanchez and Ozil then? :unsure:

We probably could have signed them without CL football if we offered them enough money and ambition.

[Özim]

Well, no. But having had that happen we did at least get our shit together, equalize and get a point which is more than Spurs did there.

a) Spurs are above us
b) We were two goals up and gave away 3 goals in what 8 minutes (really unprofessional) so getting a goal to level it up is nothing to ride home about especially in a game we had to win.

[Özim]

I don't know about lucky but regardless of what happened on the opening day West Ham have been very solid at home this season. They lost 2 early games to Leicester and (bizarrely) Bournemouth and they haven't lost in the league since.
Going 2-0 up and then drawing is bad but on the other hand after collapsing to 3-2 we did at least get a point. Overall a draw there isn't a bad result.

In brief there are some positive and some negative aspects of the result, the mood is so sour right now though that everyone obsesses about the latter, any mention of anything else is met with howls of derision. Meh.

A draw is a terrible result after leading 2-0, especially when we absolutely had to win after the disastrous run we put together. There's no positives to the draw, it's useless to us.

[Power n Glory]

The guy wouldn't know what resilience is if it smacked him in the face, when we needed to be resilient and grind results out we bottled it and dropped points left right and center.

I disagree. Every time he signs a new contract and hangs on to his belief that his way is the right way. :lol:

[Özim]

This team lost the right to claim brownie points for resilience months ago. It's meaningless.

Meaningless to anyone but Wenger and his sympathisers. Wenger is the king of hailing irrelevant runs/results and underplaying the results that really matter.

[Letters]

A draw is a terrible result after leading 2-0, especially when we absolutely had to win after the disastrous run we put together. There's no positives to the draw, it's useless to us.

ZIM NOT FINDING ANYTHING POSITIVE TO SAY SHOCK EXCLUSIVE

:lol:

[Özim]

I think you need to view results in isolation. If you pretend we haven't collapsed catastrophically and we really needed three points to keep our slim, slim title chances alive (remember the win every game message Wenger was talking about), just forget all that and a draw is a decent result.

But then there's the old problem of blowing leads. So what we need to do is take each half in isolation. If we ignore the first half I think we showed great resilience in coming from a goal behind to get the draw. A point there is a pretty good result. Ignoring the Leicester and spud results, every point is precious at this stage of the season.

So all in all plenty of positives to take from the game.

Don't forget if we go on a mini unbeaten run from now until the end of the season it will prove Wenger is right and we were the greatest all along, they should just base the title on the last 7 games, that would be the only fair thing to do.

Next season we should tear it up based on our results in the last few games, we don't need any new signings as we have about a half a dozen new signings to come back from injury, everything is falling into place just as Wenger said it would, we've found the 2% at last :trophy:

[Özim]

ZIM NOT FINDING ANYTHING POSITIVE TO SAY SHOCK EXCLUSIVE

:lol:

There are no positives to dropping points left right and center when it mattered and then picking up draws in games we were 2-0 in.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I have had plenty of people my brother included say that Chelsea, United and City have all collapsed this season as some kind of mitigation.

1) They have all won the title more recently than us so to compare ourselves to them is misleading

2) There is a familiarity in our collapse in the way it tends to happen at the same time of every season whenever we are challenging for the title (07/08), (10/11), (13/14) and now this season. You can argue that we haven't been able to compete because of spending power disparity but you'd have all your work in front of you to argue that the collapses have anything to do with lack of spending if we got ourselves into that position in the first place. Lack of spending didn't contribute to Gallas flouncing off like a little girl after the 2-2 draw at St Andrews, blowing a four goal lead at Newcastle or being 4-0 down at Anfield in twenty minutes.

3) At all these other clubs there is consequence for their failure. Of course you could argue in the case of Chelsea that they don't give their managers enough time but it's only Arsenal where whether we give ourselves an uphill struggle or a spectacular fall from the summit and end up in the same position where it's regarded as an achievement.

[Letters]

Is there a point to comparing them to other teams? If we're going to compare ourselves to previous title holders, they've had shit seasons and the managers have been sacked or will be. Also, we need to looking internally rather than outside to others because it's another 'disappointing' season and we're saying it's not good enough. It's unlikely Chelsea, City and Utd will have another season like this but we're more than likely to have a season where we're ending up in the 70 points bracket at the end of the season.
All teams will drop points in games when they've gone ahead. If it's perceived that it's a particular problem with us then I think it's useful to compare with other teams to see whether it's something which happens more than other teams. That's my reasoning for doing it. And maybe a comparison with ourselves in other seasons would be useful to see if it's something which has got worse or better.

[Letters]

There are no positives to dropping points left right and center when it mattered and then picking up draws in games we were 2-0 in.

I'd take you more seriously if you weren't so unrelentingly miserable about every sodding thing.
You clearly get no enjoyment from football, I don't know why you don't just stop watching and put us out of your misery.

[Kano]

There are no positives to dropping points left right and center when it mattered and then picking up draws in games we were 2-0 in.

Of course there aren't. It's absolute bollocks to talk about resilience and coming back to get a draw after such a calamitous collapse mid-game.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Leicester have taken the lead five times this season and not come away with a win

But there are far more instances of them coming back to claim results when they have been behind


Spurs have taken the lead the same time as us without going on to win


But again far more points accumulated from conceding the first goal or going behind at any point during the game.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'd take you more seriously if you weren't so unrelentingly miserable about every sodding thing.
You clearly get no enjoyment from football, I don't know why you don't just stop watching and put us out of your misery.

Can you honestly say that apart from going 2-0 up there was anything remotely enjoyable about the West Ham game. Without going on to claim a winner, Koscielnys equaliser was next to useless to us.

[Letters]

Can you honestly say that apart from going 2-0 up there was anything remotely enjoyable about the West Ham game. Without going on to claim a winner, Koscielnys equaliser was next to useless to us.

Didn't see it tbh, I was out and about, but I heard it was a good game generally. The positive is we didn't lose when it went to 3-2 and a point there generally is a good result, the negative is we were 2-0 up and should have won.
It's as simple as that really.

[Power n Glory]

All teams will drop points in games when they've gone ahead. If it's perceived that it's a particular problem with us then I think it's useful to compare with other teams to see whether it's something which happens more than other teams. That's my reasoning for doing it. And maybe a comparison with ourselves in other seasons would be useful to see if it's something which has got worse or better.

What's the purpose? Are you battling perception on GW or looking for evidence of improvement in the team? Looking at what previous title winners have done is pretty pointless because they haven't gone 10 years or so without winning the league. That's what all this debate adds up to. Our inability to sustain a title challenge. Of course all teams drop points but we're a team that always seem to hit a glass ceiling. Since last winning the league, we've only finished the season with over 80 points twice (2004/05 and 2007/08). Nobody has won the league with less than 80 points since the late 98/99. That says it all really. We're just not improving.

[Letters]

What's the purpose? Are you battling perception on GW or looking for evidence of improvement in the team?
A bit of both. If there's a perception that we drop too many points from winning positions then how else do you assess whether that's true that other than comparing what we're doing to other teams or our own performance in past seasons?
Otherwise it's just "yes we do", "no we don't" with no backup from either side.
Isn't this what Arsenal Debate is for?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Didn't see it tbh, I was out and about, but I heard it was a good game generally. The positive is we didn't lose when it went to 3-2 and a point there generally is a good result, the negative is we were 2-0 up and should have won.
It's as simple as that really.

It's a good game if you are a neutral, do you honestly think Dortmund fans went home to Germany last night thinking "oh that was a cracker of a game" no they will think it was thrown away from 3-1 up.
In the context of the season when nothing but a win would do, I repeat what was exactly positive about the game after going 2-0 up?

[Letters]

It was an Arsenal fan who told me it was a good game. :shrug:
And it's a bit different from last night when they ended up losing the game and tie.
You can repeat if you like and I can repeat what I said if you want to go round and round those circles all day.

[Power n Glory]

A bit of both. If there's a perception that we drop too many points from winning positions then how else do you assess whether that's true that other than comparing what we're doing to other teams or our own performance in past seasons?
Otherwise it's just "yes we do", "no we don't" with no backup from either side.
Isn't this what Arsenal Debate is for?

I'll leave this one here again because your ducking the points made and that's no way to debate.


What's the purpose? Are you battling perception on GW or looking for evidence of improvement in the team? Looking at what previous title winners have done is pretty pointless because they haven't gone 10 years or so without winning the league. That's what all this debate adds up to. Our inability to sustain a title challenge. Of course all teams drop points but we're a team that always seem to hit a glass ceiling. Since last winning the league, we've only finished the season with over 80 points twice (2004/05 and 2007/08). Nobody has won the league with less than 80 points since the late 98/99. That says it all really. We're just not improving.


The important comparison is the league table and how we perform. Comparing the times we've come back from a goal down or whatever else is pointless it means little in the grand scheme of of things. It goes back to what NQ said about viewing results in isolation and counting how many times we've come back from a goal or two down is pretty pointless.

[Letters]

Comparing the times we've come back from a goal down or whatever else is pointless it means little in the grand scheme of of things.
OK, then people should stop raising it as an issue then. I only started looking at the details because it was raised.

Yes, the bigger picture is we're not challenging. But surely the only way the debate can go from there is why aren't we? So then you can start looking at things like whether we drop too many points from winning positions or don't come back often enough from losing ones.

And yes yes, it all comes down to Wenger's a senile old goat and :blah:
But if you just want to reduce the debate to that then there IS nothing left to debate. So shall I just close this part of the forum till Wenger leaves?

[Niall_Quinn]

What's the purpose? Are you battling perception on GW or looking for evidence of improvement in the team? Looking at what previous title winners have done is pretty pointless because they haven't gone 10 years or so without winning the league. That's what all this debate adds up to. Our inability to sustain a title challenge. Of course all teams drop points but we're a team that always seem to hit a glass ceiling. Since last winning the league, we've only finished the season with over 80 points twice (2004/05 and 2007/08). Nobody has won the league with less than 80 points since the late 98/99. That says it all really. We're just not improving.

Devil's advocate I would say. He's actually doing a fair job of drumming up a bit of extra business for the site. Much better to login and not get that, "There are no new messages...", notice.

[Letters]

I'm actually saying what I think. But now apparently we're not supposed to look at statistics and debate points, it all comes down to #WengerOut.
So fine, let's shut up shop and when he leaves we can re-open the place, it'll save Gary and me some hosting money in the meantime.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm actually saying what I think. But now apparently we're not supposed to look at statistics and debate points, it all comes down to #WengerOut.
So fine, let's shut up shop and when he leaves we can re-open the place, it'll save Gary and me some hosting money in the meantime.

I was being serious. However, if you are being serious too then that's an eye-opener. After this season, on what grounds could anyone have anything favourable to say about this guy? He's 100% stuffed it up and he deserves a ton of flack. What would be weird is if he wasn't getting it.

[Letters]

50 Shades of Grey, tbh

[selassie]

:blink:
What are Cech, Sanchez and Ozil then? :unsure:

Good players, of course they are CL level players but what about other areas of the squad or are you going to just ignore them like Wenger does?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

OK, then people should stop raising it as an issue then. I only started looking at the details because it was raised.

Yes, the bigger picture is we're not challenging. But surely the only way the debate can go from there is why aren't we? So then you can start looking at things like whether we drop too many points from winning positions or don't come back often enough from losing ones.

And yes yes, it all comes down to Wenger's a senile old goat and :blah:
But if you just want to reduce the debate to that then there IS nothing left to debate. So shall I just close this part of the forum till Wenger leaves?


To be fair yes there are plenty of grey areas, but frankly you are not going to get much support if you are trying to defend this season.

To suggest we can take more positives from the game against West Ham than Dortmund fans can take from the Liverpool game is delusional. We had to win every game and even then we'd have come up short but maybe just maybe we could argue that we kept the title race going as long as it was in our power so to do, so in that context the difference between a draw and a defeat is virtually non existent. I'm sure it was a good game, any game with lots of goals in it is a good game...Crystal Palace drawing 3-3 with Liverpool was also a great game but it was also an unmitigated disaster for Liverpool in that it snuffed out any lingering title hope.

It is ridiculous to accuse fans of being negative for holding any other view that after being 2-0 up there are no positive, and it does sound almost that you are being a contrarian partly out of a sense of stubbornness and partly because you want this place to be what it say on the tin.

[Letters]

Good players, of course they are CL level players but what about other areas of the squad or are you going to just ignore them like Wenger does?

I'm not ignoring them, I was responding to your comment how we're not in the market for CL level players.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Good players, of course they are CL level players but what about other areas of the squad or are you going to just ignore them like Wenger does?

Again the squad is better than the team 13 points in front of us, it could of course be improved but it's more that it hasn't been utilised to get the best out of it.

[Power n Glory]

OK, then people should stop raising it as an issue then. I only started looking at the details because it was raised.

Yes, the bigger picture is we're not challenging. But surely the only way the debate can go from there is why aren't we? So then you can start looking at things like whether we drop too many points from winning positions or don't come back often enough from losing ones.

And yes yes, it all comes down to Wenger's a senile old goat and :blah:
But if you just want to reduce the debate to that then there IS nothing left to debate. So shall I just close this part of the forum till Wenger leaves?

It would help if you'd pay attention to a whole post instead of selecting parts you want to debate...hence you focusing on meaningless games we've lost the lead on. You raised your own point and then want to debate it with others but ignore everything else.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Also Letters I don't think Wenger is a shit manager because I don't think a shit manager would have got us consistently in the top four. But not being a shit manager is not the same as being a manager capable of delivering, and there is no grey area in that respect.
And the other users here are pointing out that in the last ten years they think there are enough examples to prove that self evidently Wenger was incapable of taking us on, regardless of the funds or not.

Would a lot of managers have kept us in the top four, no and that level of consistency is commendable and for that despite Wengers shortcomings it probably was fair to keep him on whilst things were tight, but the fact is no one is surprised he couldn't cut it when the money was available.

[Power n Glory]

To be fair yes there are plenty of grey areas, but frankly you are not going to get much support if you are trying to defend this season.

To suggest we can take more positives from the game against West Ham than Dortmund fans can take from the Liverpool game is delusional. We had to win every game and even then we'd have come up short but maybe just maybe we could argue that we kept the title race going as long as it was in our power so to do, so in that context the difference between a draw and a defeat is virtually non existent. I'm sure it was a good game, any game with lots of goals in it is a good game...Crystal Palace drawing 3-3 with Liverpool was also a great game but it was also an unmitigated disaster for Liverpool in that it snuffed out any lingering title hope.

It is ridiculous to accuse fans of being negative for holding any other view that after being 2-0 up there are no positive, and it does sound almost that you are being a contrarian partly out of a sense of stubbornness and partly because you want this place to be what it say on the tin.

I think Letters fails even to see the positives correctly. :lol: The result isn’t a positive and not in a game where it’s a must win. If we’re going to take anything positive away from that game, it would have to be the first 40 odd minutes of the game and Iwobi especially.

[Letters]

To be fair yes there are plenty of grey areas, but frankly you are not going to get much support if you are trying to defend this season.
I've noticed that :d

Although, to be fair, I'm not defending this season. I've said I'd judge Wenger at the end of the season and we're close enough now to see he's not pushed us on and so should go.
There's a lot of emotion in football and it clouds judgement. If you're 2-0 down and you battle back and get a last minute equalizer you go home buzzing, if you're 2-0 up and concede a last minute equalizer then you go home fuming.
Same result, very different feeling.
Similarly, people are only saying there is nothing positive about the result because of the general negative feeling and how the season has gone.
Even if we'd won every game we wouldn't have been champions IMO, a point away vs West Ham is decent enough with how they've been this season, and having collapsed to 3-2 we did at least get a point.
In happier times I don't think it would have been seen so overwhelmingly negatively.

Positives:
West Ham are a good side, a point there is a pretty decent result.
We were 3-2 down and managed to rescue a point.

Negatives:
We were 2-0 up and thus should have won.
In the context of the season, keeping our (faint) hopes of the title and (realistic) hopes of catching Spurs, we needed a win.

I'd say the negatives outweigh the positives, but that doesn't mean there aren't some shades of grey or the negatives don't exist.

[Letters]

It would help if you'd pay attention to a whole post instead of selecting parts you want to debate...hence you focusing on meaningless games we've lost the lead on. You raised your own point and then want to debate it with others but ignore everything else.

Although interestingly you have quoted my whole post and then ignored pretty much all of it :lol:

[Letters]

Also Letters I don't think Wenger is a shit manager because I don't think a shit manager would have got us consistently in the top four. But not being a shit manager is not the same as being a manager capable of delivering, and there is no grey area in that respect.
And the other users here are pointing out that in the last ten years they think there are enough examples to prove that self evidently Wenger was incapable of taking us on, regardless of the funds or not.

Would a lot of managers have kept us in the top four, no and that level of consistency is commendable and for that despite Wengers shortcomings it probably was fair to keep him on whilst things were tight, but the fact is no one is surprised he couldn't cut it when the money was available.
That's pretty much my position too. My issue with some posters is the level of vitriol they spout indicates they think he is a shit manager and has done nothing positive over the last 10 years which is patently balls.

[selassie]

I'm not ignoring them, I was responding to your comment how we're not in the market for CL level players.

Broadly speaking we're not, we weren't in the market for anybody last summer! :lol:

The point I was trying to make is that finishing in CL places is irrelevant with Wenger in charge and I'll stand by that point.

[selassie]

Again the squad is better than the team 13 points in front of us, it could of course be improved but it's more that it hasn't been utilised to get the best out of it.

Yep, Wenger is the problem, I've been saying that for about 3 years now Herb ;)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's pretty much my position too. My issue with some posters is the level of vitriol they spout indicates they think he is a shit manager and has done nothing positive over the last 10 years which is patently balls.

Or maybe they are sick of the same shit year in year out and are venting about the tiresome familiarity of it

Familiarity breeding contempt. But with the exception of people like Zim who has to be commended on his consistency if nothing else than the vitriol is most present when the chips are down, this is the same for all Arsenal fans.

People try to be quite even handed, few were saying this about Wenger when we won at home to United, City, Bayern Munich or Leicester. Because even though they fear the same thing will happen they hope as fans that this year just maybe it will be different and when it isn't it's a bitter pill to swallow.

[Power n Glory]

That's pretty much my position too. My issue with some posters is the level of vitriol they spout indicates they think he is a shit manager and has done nothing positive over the last 10 years which is patently balls.

That explains it really. Plenty of balanced opinions on here but you'll pick out the extreme in a post and ignore the rest. You take issue with posters more than the results hence why you want to compare results from other teams as if it's a meaningful exercise.

[Letters]

You not understanding it doesn't make it not meaningful :shrug:

(Thought I'd go for the textbook PnG ur so fick tactic, there)

[Power n Glory]

You not understanding it doesn't make it not meaningful :shrug:

(Thought I'd go for the textbook PnG ur so fick tactic, there)

:good: debating.

[fakeyank]

Or maybe they are sick of the same shit year in year out and are venting about the tiresome familiarity of it

Familiarity breeding contempt. But with the exception of people like Zim who has to be commended on his consistency if nothing else than the vitriol is most present when the chips are down, this is the same for all Arsenal fans.

People try to be quite even handed, few were saying this about Wenger when we won at home to United, City, Bayern Munich or Leicester. Because even though they fear the same thing will happen they hope as fans that this year just maybe it will be different and when it isn't it's a bitter pill to swallow.

:gp:

Pretty much summed it up. Wenger is not going to be shown the door with people talking like they are in a boardroom meeting being respectful of each other. The fans are agitated and it'll only get worse. There is serious anger and there will be vitriol shown.

IMO, I think people are way too nice to him and giving him an easy time for what he did in the 19th century (though some people think the abuse he gets now is bad). If it at least looked like he was making logical decisions and doing his best, I couldve cut him some slack but he has been on a WUMming spree for almost a decade, and I have no sympathy for whatever comes his way.

[Maestro]

Great work by Ty, to keep this website going. Seriously without him, we'd all agree that FCUK wenget and shut down shop. Admiral the staunch one man debating/wumming machine, this place needs it.

[GP]

Yep, Wenger is the problem, I've been saying that for about 3 years now Herb ;)

Cunty McCuntface.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger MIGHT deserve a bit of credit for the 4th Place Trophy dynasty he has established if it ever amounted to more than making the owners rich. What's the point of top 4? We're only making up the expanded numbers so even more rich bloke like Platini can stuff their pockets. Wenger never actually prepares us to compete. Same every year. The rich get their cash, we get a glorious failure regardless of who we face. Why should the manager get credit for making rich blokes rich while failing to prepare the team to challenge? If he worked for a bank or a supermarket the customers would hate his guts, why should he get a free ride because it is football?

If he played any part at all in bringing Elneny in and bringing Iwobi on (and I doubt it) the fair play, I'll give him credit for that. But not the 4th place thing. All that is is a loser's badge.

[Özim]

Wenger MIGHT deserve a bit of credit for the 4th Place Trophy dynasty he has established if it ever amounted to more than making the owners rich. What's the point of top 4? We're only making up the expanded numbers so even more rich bloke like Platini can stuff their pockets. Wenger never actually prepares us to compete. Same every year. The rich get their cash, we get a glorious failure regardless of who we face. Why should the manager get credit for making rich blokes rich while failing to prepare the team to challenge? If he worked for a bank or a supermarket the customers would hate his guts, why should he get a free ride because it is football?

If he played any part at all in bringing Elneny in and bringing Iwobi on (and I doubt it) the fair play, I'll give him credit for that. But not the 4th place thing. All that is is a loser's badge.

Agreed 4th place is worthless unless it's a stepping stone to something better, 20 years ago noone gave a toss about coming 4th, then money came into the equation in the form of CL qualification (make no mistake that's all it is because we never ever compete and why would we, 4th place teams generally won't beat teams who win trophies to qualify).

To hail 4th place as an achievement is joke in a football sense.

[alexander]

If he played any part at all in bringing Elneny in and bringing Iwobi on (and I doubt it) the fair play, I'll give him credit

You dont help yourself sometimes. You make many valid points through the board here, and I agree with many, but by putting things like this, its just silly.
Do you actually believe he had NOTHING to do with these two things coming about? really?
Do you think he just gets into work in the morning, goes into the office and sits and chews his toes until 5pm?

[Power n Glory]

Elneny seems like a Wenger signing of old. A quality player and one that nobody else spotted. No idea how we picked him up for cheap. Really impressed with his performances. Wenger gets credit for that move.

Players I suspect Wenger wasn't that keen on bringing in.....Welbeck, Arteta, Merts, Santos and Arshavin.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He wasn't that much of a hidden entity he was playing in the champions league with Basel last season.

I think the idea that Wenger didn't want Welbeck is a myth, Wenger puts his faith in the Stats DNA site and that indicated that Welbeck was a player who got himself into decent scoring positions more than most.

[Power n Glory]

So you knew about him and wanted us to go for him while at Basel?

[Özim]

Wenger loves a cheap buy so it was a no brainer for him, then it's just pot luck as to whether they work out or not, we've seen plenty of average joe's come in, probability states that the more you bring in the more likely you are to find a few who are good.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger loves a cheap buy so it was a no brainer for him, then it's just pot luck as to whether they work out or not, we've seen plenty of average joe's come in, probability states that the more you bring in the more likely you are to find a few who are good.

Nah, I think Wenger often gets it right with these players. Sagna, Eduardo, Hleb, Monreal, Kos....it's the really young players that he doesn't do so well with. It's a revolving door. Bielik, Sanogo, Eisfield, Ryo...cheap punts that usually end up being sold after a few years.

[mastermind84]

We dont need Kante TBF. We already have 2 decent DM in Coq and Elmo. If we want to bring someone else in he should be a powerhouse DM, not another small mobile type.
What wee need is another manager. Will Kante stop us dithering about the opponents box for 70 out of 90 mins, especially not when hes hooked off for Ramsey or Wilshere after 65mins...or is it 72
Kante been better than Coquelin


Xhaka is also needed. Saturday shoulda showed why.

[Chippy]

Kante been better than Coquelin


Xhaka is also needed. Saturday shoulda showed why.
Coq is a squad player, no more.
Same as Kos whilst I am on the subject. Our midfield and defence still looks vulnerable. Shit against West Ham last week TBH.

[Marc Overmars]

Kante's tackling and interception stats are very, very impressive. Throw in his ridiculous work ethic and you have a top player.

I'd take him over Coq who I think is fairly average. Our midfield is tame so his aggression is welcome but I don't think it covers up the fact he is a limited player.

[Chippy]

Kante's tackling and interception stats are very, very impressive. Throw in his ridiculous work ethic and you have a top player.

I'd take him over Coq who I think is fairly average. Our midfield is tame so his aggression is welcome but I don't think it covers up the fact he is a limited player.

Coq is average. He is just another excuse for Wenger to save money! One more season of this bullshit and Wenger will be gone!:pray::pray:

[Power n Glory]

Kante's tackling and interception stats are very, very impressive. Throw in his ridiculous work ethic and you have a top player.

I'd take him over Coq who I think is fairly average. Our midfield is tame so his aggression is welcome but I don't think it covers up the fact he is a limited player.

It's our system and set up that's the problem. The majority of Leicester players probably dwarf our players stat wise. How that translates into our set up is the problem.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

So you knew about him and wanted us to go for him while at Basel?

No but I'm not a football manager or a scout, my point is considering he was playing in Europes premier competition getting to the last sixteen I don't think he was flying under the radar.

[selassie]

Nah, I think Wenger often gets it right with these players. Sagna, Eduardo, Hleb, Monreal, Kos....it's the really young players that he doesn't do so well with. It's a revolving door. Bielik, Sanogo, Eisfield, Ryo...cheap punts that usually end up being sold after a few years.

Yeah totally agree, Elneny looks like a Wenger "Gem" to me, I really like him from what I've seen of him so far and think he has the potential to be a top level CM.

[Letters]

What's the point of top 4?
Ozil, Sanchez and Cech, to name 3 reasons why it's important. I guess throwing enough money around can land you top players without CL football but only if the end result is breaking back in to the top 4. If it's not important why are clubs in the top half of the table trying so hard to get in there? The money, yes, but also the prestige which can help you sign top players. I think if we'd finished outside the top 4 as a one off it wouldn't have harmed us but dropping out for 2 or more seasons in a row (as many predicted we would under Wenger) and it would have harmed us.

IMO he deserves some credit for keeping us up there when money was tight but now money isn't tight so he should be judged by different standards. He's had a few years to push us on and while the FA Cups have been nice and a good start we needed to push on for the bigger prizes and we haven't.

[Letters]

Pretty much summed it up. Wenger is not going to be shown the door with people talking like they are in a boardroom meeting being respectful of each other. The fans are agitated and it'll only get worse. There is serious anger and there will be vitriol shown.
Which kinda makes sense at the ground in the heat of the moment.
In the cold light of day on a messageboard that no-one of note reads, not so much.

[Power n Glory]

No but I'm not a football manager or a scout, my point is considering he was playing in Europes premier competition getting to the last sixteen I don't think he was flying under the radar.

Yet Man Utd had their eyes on Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger. How much did they pay for the pair? Even Newcastle spent £16m on Shelvey. They could have picked up a cheaper bargain if you ask me.

Genk made it to the last 16 of the CL, dude! ;) What's your point? Don't take the word 'hidden' so literally. I don't think it's possible for a player to truly fly under the radar for a manager or scout in this modern age. It's just a case of who is smart enough to find an undervalued player that can slot into their system.

[Power n Glory]

Yeah totally agree, Elneny looks like a Wenger "Gem" to me, I really like him from what I've seen of him so far and think he has the potential to be a top level CM.

Really been impressed with him so far. Makes a huge difference to how we move the ball. Pleased with the purchase.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Which kinda makes sense at the ground in the heat of the moment.
In the cold light of day on a messageboard that no-one of note reads, not so much.

In the cold light of day people are still frustrated and venting.

This should have been our year, and we have failed spectacularly that's not something that's got over easily.

[Özim]

I'll reserve judgement on Elneny as it's early days, Coquelin was flavour of the month last season and now people think he's average so things can change quickly.

[Niall_Quinn]

Elneny seems like a Wenger signing of old. A quality player and one that nobody else spotted. No idea how we picked him up for cheap. Really impressed with his performances. Wenger gets credit for that move.

Players I suspect Wenger wasn't that keen on bringing in.....Welbeck, Arteta, Merts, Santos and Arshavin.

Yes but wait. Are you impressed because he's not a total bloody shambles? You always have to ask yourself that question when it comes to Arsenal and Wenger. We love Coquelin. Why? Because he's halfway competent, a huge step up for us. Maybe it's the same with Elneny. Is he good enough to play in the middle for Barca, Bayern or Marketing? Probably not. So we have another second tier player. But at least a player that seems to have a clue what he's supposed to be doing on a pitch. And so comes the next question. Is that a hangover from his previous club? Will Wenger train this out of him and instil that tippy, happy goodness he has bathed the rest of the squad in?

[Niall_Quinn]

Ozil, Sanchez and Cech, to name 3 reasons why it's important. I guess throwing enough money around can land you top players without CL football but only if the end result is breaking back in to the top 4. If it's not important why are clubs in the top half of the table trying so hard to get in there? The money, yes, but also the prestige which can help you sign top players. I think if we'd finished outside the top 4 as a one off it wouldn't have harmed us but dropping out for 2 or more seasons in a row (as many predicted we would under Wenger) and it would have harmed us.

IMO he deserves some credit for keeping us up there when money was tight but now money isn't tight so he should be judged by different standards. He's had a few years to push us on and while the FA Cups have been nice and a good start we needed to push on for the bigger prizes and we haven't.

He deserves abuse for turning 4th place into an ambition. And he gets it.

As a football fan do you actually care if the club is run on a financially sound footing? That's a job for bean counters, not football managers and certainly not fans. Fuck that. We've all been conned to such a degree you'll actually hears Arsenal fans use our book balancing prowess for bragging rights. Hell, I may even have done it myself in the past. But when you finally realise the double entry bookkeeping is the end, rather a means to the end, a light snaps on and all you can thing is FUUUUUUCK! Wow, REALLY? Shit!

Fuck them and their QuickBooks Football.

So the next question. What's the point of Ozil and Alexis and Cech? Is there any real intention to keep going and build a squad to compete at the very top level? No. So these players, like so many before, are passing through. I love seeing them play, so that's a bonus. But they aren't part of a bigger picture, a greater ambition. So you know that what's good today will be gone tomorrow. You know they'll never be supplemented with players who can press the advantage an Ozil brings. Instead we have Giroud and Walcott. So really, what's the point? The players can't do it on their own, nor would you want them to do it alone as that defeats the very purpose of a team game. Oil, Alexis and Cech should have been a statement of intent. Instead the appear to be part crowd appeasement, part shoring up exercise. For the money spent on them Wenger has won a couple of cups and secured his precious 4th place. But no sign of a title challenge and the humiliation of Europe goes on uninterrupted.

What really harms us is Wenger. And the leeches above him who approve of his every business decision and couldn't give a fuck about the football. Nothing can change until this gang of paper shuffling profiteers piss off.

[Niall_Quinn]

Which kinda makes sense at the ground in the heat of the moment.
In the cold light of day on a messageboard that no-one of note reads, not so much.


On what do you base that judgement? Personal experience or guesswork?

A faulty WordPress plugin brought down the government of Iceland, so the story goes. The Internet is noise. Noise has a threshold, if it is loud enough then anyone can be reached. Only 60K people can pack into a stadium. But millions of people can say #WengerOut and if they keep saying it it becomes the common sentiment.

Corporate and government drones still don't get the power of the Internet, just as they overlooked the power of the printing press. Unworthy people have to keep the worthy majority silent if they want to carry on their abuse unhindered.

[Power n Glory]

Yes but wait. Are you impressed because he's not a total bloody shambles? You always have to ask yourself that question when it comes to Arsenal and Wenger. We love Coquelin. Why? Because he's halfway competent, a huge step up for us. Maybe it's the same with Elneny. Is he good enough to play in the middle for Barca, Bayern or Marketing? Probably not. So we have another second tier player. But at least a player that seems to have a clue what he's supposed to be doing on a pitch. And so comes the next question. Is that a hangover from his previous club? Will Wenger train this out of him and instil that tippy, happy goodness he has bathed the rest of the squad in?

Early days but I think he's doing a fantastic job there. Just as good or maybe even better than Cazorla. I'll keep watching but I rate his performances so far. He plays with intelligence. Picks the right passes and not just sideways passes either. Time will tell if Barca and Real come sniffing. They usually do. Song and Hleb went so can't be too quick to judge.

If it were a case of me rating anyone that isn't a complete shambles, I'd be full of praise for Ozil. :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ozil just brings into sharper leaf how we lack a decent striker

The chances the guy creates is unsurpassed, he's leading the assists table even with that carthorse Giroud playing in front of him.

[alexander]

As a football fan do you actually care if the club is run on a financially sound footing? That's a job for bean counters, not football managers

he really prides himself on the `moral high ground` thing. The other day he had a dig at West Ham moving to the new ground for what amounts to peanuts. His desire to do it the right way (on the pitch and finance) means nothing in the football, or sports world in general tbh. It is a corrupt game, as most sport is. There is cheating on the pitch and off of it be it drugs or money or whatever. As a fan all I want to do is see them win, not only games but cups. I dont think thats too much to ask from being an Arsenal fan. We are historically and financially one of the biggest teams in Europe. Teams like us, ManU, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City should all be expecting to win something, not every year, granted, but more regularly than we do. We are a big club, in London, with plenty of cash, we need to use it to push on, because if we are not careful there will be another breakaway of clubs with money (its kind of happening now) and we will be left behind.
A business must keep investing each year to keep moving forward and not be left behind. This goes for the Sandwich shop on the street corner of a large football club. Nobody really cares (except for Stan and investors) how rich we are, that will soon be eroded away as we start to slide down the league without continued investment to keep the club moving forward.

[Letters]

He deserves abuse for turning 4th place into an ambition.
He hasn't, that's just the way football has gone. Top 4 has become a 'thing'. It shouldn't be, but it is because of the rise and rise of the CL.
And abuse? Really? If you think he's getting things wrong then criticism, sure, but abuse? At worst he's doing his best but not cutting it any more, abuse is a bit strong. The board arguably deserve abuse as they really don't give a crap about how things go on the field so long as the money keeps rolling in. Wenger at least cares, even if he is increasingly unable to challenge for the biggest prizes.


As a football fan do you actually care if the club is run on a financially sound footing?
Only in as much as money and success in football are highly correlated, so it's important from that point of view. I don't believe that the new level of spending at the trophies are a co-incidence.
We should be doing better and Wenger isn't making the best of his resources but at least he's making sure we have resources for the next bloke to work with, better that than someone like 'Arry who won the FA Cup with Portsmouth and left a financial train wreck behind.

What's the point of Ozil and Alexis and Cech? Is there any real intention to keep going and build a squad to compete at the very top level? No.
I disagree, yes of course there is that intention. Whether Wenger has the ability to is another matter but yes, of course that is his intention.

[Power n Glory]

Ozil just brings into sharper leaf how we lack a decent striker

The chances the guy creates is unsurpassed, he's leading the assists table even with that carthorse Giroud playing in front of him.

You think he'll be able to get more assists next season? That's if we get a new striker.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You think he'll be able to get more assists next season? That's if we get a new striker.

The stats on the chances he's created suggest he would

[Özim]

He hasn't, that's just the way football has gone. Top 4 has become a 'thing'. It shouldn't be, but it is because of the rise and rise of the CL.
And abuse? Really? If you think he's getting things wrong then criticism, sure, but abuse? At worst he's doing his best but not cutting it any more, abuse is a bit strong. The board arguably deserve abuse as they really don't give a crap about how things go on the field so long as the money keeps rolling in. Wenger at least cares, even if he is increasingly unable to challenge for the biggest prizes.

I disagree, he has by hailing it as some sort of major prize, in addition his satisfaction at getting 4th and how relatively unaffected he is by not doing better adds to that sentiment.

As for the abuse, well players get the same day in day out (and I don't hear anyone complaining about that) and the way that he goes on as if he's above anyone else and that his job is pretty much there as long as he wants it as well as how he dares to point the finger at the fans, it's no real surprise people take a dislike to him.

I don't understand how you can't see how patronising he is and how arrogant he has become tbh, based on his public persona he's not particularly likeable and that's all of his own making, he could have easily been more diplomatic and less patronising.

What he does is nothing to be proud of, to gain respect you have to earn it, he really doesn't even try.

[Power n Glory]

The stats on the chances he's created suggest he would

We have to hope we get a better striker next season in that case. I think it's been an exceptional season for Ozil and I worry he won't be able to repeat it. But still wish he'd pop up with more goals. Just watching De Bruyne for City and that goal that put them through to the semis. Ozil is great at finding space and if he'd work on his shooting we wouldn't be so dependent on a striker.

[Özim]

Ozil is an exceptional creator (always has been throughout his career) but his finishing has never been up to scatch and that won't change now IMO, De Bruyne however looks like one of those rare goalscoring midfielders that are like gold dust.

We should look to find both a top striker and a goalscoring midfielder because they add another dimension to your play, our best teams had goals from these areas and I think most top teams do, a midfielder will get opportunities that a striker may get marked out of getting which can be very useful when trying to break down teams.

[AFC Leveller]

We have to hope we get a better striker next season in that case. I think it's been an exceptional season for Ozil and I worry he won't be able to repeat it. But still wish he'd pop up with more goals. Just watching De Bruyne for City and that goal that put them through to the semis. Ozil is great at finding space and if he'd work on his shooting we wouldn't be so dependent on a striker.

agree. Ozil's lack of shots is really alarming, he almost never has a pop.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I agree with you for once, I think Ozil scoring goals is only an issue because of the lack of goals elsewhere in the side, I'm fairly sure he's not got into double figures at any club he's been at. De Bruyne is a goal scoring midfielder, a bit like Freddie Ljungberg but with far more technical ability.

Ozil has got eight goals this season which is about par for someone who is a creator and not a goalscorer.

[Power n Glory]

Besides it being an issue for us because of the lack of goals, it's an issue for him as well. Despite having the most assists in Europe, he'll probably miss out on the PFA award as well as the World Player of the Year nominations and awards. He'll continue to get overlooked unless he's able to come up with those important match defining goals.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He's a goal provider not a goal scorer, and frankly couldn't give a shit what individual honours he wins as long as he delivers for us, and his stats show he creates a plethora of chances for competent goalscorers, and that's what we are lacking.

[Power n Glory]

That's where we differ. An attacking midfielder should shoot more and score more goals. It's a part of the job requirement when playing in that position. He's an attacking midfielder and not a central midfielder. If we signed a winger like Navas, a guy that hardly ever scored but chipped in a lot of assists and creates chances, my criticism would be the same. Again, it just relates back to what I said to NQ about why I'm not full of praise for him. A guy that can go out there and go for goal seems like more of gutsy player for me. Taking the burden on his shoulders when a games tight. Just the type of players I like to see in that position.

[fakeyank]

Which kinda makes sense at the ground in the heat of the moment.
In the cold light of day on a messageboard that no-one of note reads, not so much.

If it was just this season or may be the last 2 seasons, I'd get your point. To many who opened their eyes early, its the same shit for a long time. The fact that there is so much anger against him on a MB that not anyone of note reads is a sign that fans are sick and tired of the situation. Besides MB's like these are responsible for the anger that people are seeing on the comments section on FB or twitter or other social media. While I think social media has its many vices, this is one of the best things to happen. I am glad people who would just stay in the background and stay silent, can get out and make their voices heard.

[Kano]

Social media :lol:

[Letters]

I disagree:lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I recognise it was a continuation of a previous conversation but moved the last few posts given they are directly about the Palace game.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Where did you move them?

[GP]

Where did you move them?

Bottom of the sea.