Arsenal - A 'Broken' Club

[IBK]

Firstly, I know that the thread title is exaggerated. Secondly, it is not just a reaction to our usual miserable transfer season, or a spoilt brat reaction to the spending of our rivals.

But in terms of our status as a 'top' club with title aspirations, this transfer window; together with the preceding season has torn away the last vestiges of an illusion that has characterised AFC for the past 10 years, and finally revealed us for what we are. We are also-rans, and we have thrown in the towel in terms of preserving the status that we have enjoyed for decades.

I defy any Gooner to think seriously that we have any prospect of winning the league, or progressing into the final stages of the CL this coming season. I defy any Gooner to suggest that the majority view outside the club is anything other than that we are a bit of a joke - clinging Canute style to the idea of 'doing things the right way'; playing 'proper football'; growing organically etc etc while the game accelerates beyond us.

Don't get me wrong. There are 16 teams in the league whose fans would be pleased to perform at our consistent level. Plenty of people will gladly come to matches to see us play, and (for now) we will remain prominent in terms of televised games. But with the club's approach over the last few seasons, combined with the comments that have been made by manager and CEO lately, I think that the truth is there for all to see. Arsenal has no plans to progress; no proper understanding of what has happened in either the game or the football environment over the past few years and no blueprint to take the Club forwards - which is more than likely to translate into regression as other clubs move forwards.

It is almost as though our appetite to be a top team evaporated following the now 'failed' stadium project. It has failed because with the TV money throughout the entire league, stadium receipts are effectively an irrelevance. The future in this regard is typified by the deal West Ham did re the Olympic stadium; the fact that Liverpool, Spurs will be able to raise finance for their new stadiums without breaking stride on the playing side and the recognition by the top clubs that 'obscene' investment in the world's best players and managers is more than offset by marketing receipts.

If you think about it, the 'Oligarch' era is itself now consigned to history. Like it or not, we are in a brave new world of commercial investment in football - where the top clubs are more than billionaire's playthings. The supreme irony of Arsenal is that football is that we are specialists in corporate management - but even here we lack ambition, because Kroenke's vision is not both self-serving, and lacks the scope of those at the helm at Manure and Citeh.

I heard a Gooner on the radio yesterday bemoaning the fact that 'nothing will change' until Wenger leaves. The reality is that its no longer even about our myopic manager any more. The entire structure and philosophy of our club is predicated against being the best. The club's acceptance of player talent/performances that falls consistently below the excellence required to win; a seemingly mediocre scouting system; an inability to recognise what it takes to close deals and the continued endorsement of managerial decisions that are clearly misguided. I don't think that this will change post Wenger. I think that second best is now as woven into the fabric of our club's set up as our reputation for doing things the 'Arsenal Way'.

As for Wenger. IMHO he has lost his bottle. He is a slave to his own hubris and has become characterised by his ideals of self sustainability. He takes untimate pride not in winning, but in achieving efficiency - a coeficiency of spending against league (CL) position. Our problem as fans is that this coincides so precisely with the mentality of those running our club that it has come to define it. What Wenger would love is not to be a Man U, but a Leicester. But he does not seem to appreciate that the Leicester's success was a) a one-off, and b) built on belief; ambition and a team work ethic that is very different to his own approach to the game.

So we as fans are left with only two realistic options - to 'enjoy' our club without the excitement of a tilt at silverware (which has been undoubtedly a privilege in the past); or to disengage from the intensity that comes with being title contenders - which is clearly now what Arsenal has done.

[Özim]

Also-rans sums us up perfectly, we have manager with no bottle and no hunger for success, he accepts medocrioty and rewards it and hails failure as a success. As for the rest, it's all about money, winning doesn't come into the thinking, just profits.

We're an example that no other club should follow, no longer a football club but more of a profit making business.

I've got no real interest in this club anymore, IMO we've turned into a horrible, losers mentality club, we're a big club that aspires to be a small club on the pitch and Wenger's legacy for me will be failure and as someone who changed this club for the worse.

We're takers who give nothing back and are blatant about it, which is sad. You were right though, as a club we might not be broken, but as a football club we certainly are.

[bignev]

Great post from the Op which you have to agree with really.

I appreciate everything that Wenger has achieved for the club during his tenure. What is happening now makes me sad because as a person I really like Wenger. During interviews you can see he has a great knowledge of the game and that everyone in the footballing world respects him. He's done some fantastic things for our club as well which many have forgotten about.

After we build the stadium and were in the process of paying it off, we were all frustrated about the lack of silverware and the lack of ambition shown by the club. However a large majority of the fanbase could see the wider picture or so we thought. Many of us bought in to the idea of stability and short term pain for long term gain. Now we're out of that period, we shown some ambition by signing Ozil and Alexis and I think we started to get excited, especially when combined with winning the FA Cup. We even started this summer off well with the signing of Xaka. The club even announced at the beginning of the summer that we wanted a CB and striker. I thought we were finally going to go for it. Stupid me.

What has followed has been nothing short of ridiculous and I don't understand what we're trying to do. For all of his many talents, Wenger has lost sight of what is necessary to make a club successful. That doesn't make him a c*nt or clueless or any of the other insults that so called "fans" throw at him but it does illustrate that he is out of touch with modern football. I can even understand those "fans" frustration because the way that Arsenal act is infuriating. The real irony is that we hamstring ourselves every season and yet Wenger stills manages to make us "the best of the rest" every year, in some ways that proves what a great manager he is. If we actually went for it then we could actually achieve something.

It isn't just Wenger that's the issue. The board are also a big part of the problem. None of them are footballing people and they don't really care about silverware, or so it seems. We've heard reports that we're difficult to deal with in terms of transfers as well. That is hindering us. I strongly suspect we've lost out on some good players because of that. Why sell to Arsenal when we can sell to another club who are easy to deal with?

Leicester winning the title has hindered us as well. Because they've proven that you can win the league without spending big money which is music to Arsena's ears. Of course it was a one off but they don't care.

The sad thing is I honestly don't see how we can change things. We're powerless essentially. I almost wish I could support another club but of course I can't do that.

[LDG]

I used to be happy living in the bubble of "self-sustainment" during the cash shy days. I believed it all too.

What a mug.

"Wenger smokescreens"
"He has a plan"
"When we've paid off the stadium debt"

What a load of bullshit.

[Niall_Quinn]

Firstly, I know that the thread title is exaggerated. Secondly, it is not just a reaction to our usual miserable transfer season, or a spoilt brat reaction to the spending of our rivals.

But in terms of our status as a 'top' club with title aspirations, this transfer window; together with the preceding season has torn away the last vestiges of an illusion that has characterised AFC for the past 10 years, and finally revealed us for what we are. We are also-rans, and we have thrown in the towel in terms of preserving the status that we have enjoyed for decades.

I defy any Gooner to think seriously that we have any prospect of winning the league, or progressing into the final stages of the CL this coming season. I defy any Gooner to suggest that the majority view outside the club is anything other than that we are a bit of a joke - clinging Canute style to the idea of 'doing things the right way'; playing 'proper football'; growing organically etc etc while the game accelerates beyond us.

Don't get me wrong. There are 16 teams in the league whose fans would be pleased to perform at our consistent level. Plenty of people will gladly come to matches to see us play, and (for now) we will remain prominent in terms of televised games. But with the club's approach over the last few seasons, combined with the comments that have been made by manager and CEO lately, I think that the truth is there for all to see. Arsenal has no plans to progress; no proper understanding of what has happened in either the game or the football environment over the past few years and no blueprint to take the Club forwards - which is more than likely to translate into regression as other clubs move forwards.

It is almost as though our appetite to be a top team evaporated following the now 'failed' stadium project. It has failed because with the TV money throughout the entire league, stadium receipts are effectively an irrelevance. The future in this regard is typified by the deal West Ham did re the Olympic stadium; the fact that Liverpool, Spurs will be able to raise finance for their new stadiums without breaking stride on the playing side and the recognition by the top clubs that 'obscene' investment in the world's best players and managers is more than offset by marketing receipts.

If you think about it, the 'Oligarch' era is itself now consigned to history. Like it or not, we are in a brave new world of commercial investment in football - where the top clubs are more than billionaire's playthings. The supreme irony of Arsenal is that football is that we are specialists in corporate management - but even here we lack ambition, because Kroenke's vision is not both self-serving, and lacks the scope of those at the helm at Manure and Citeh.

I heard a Gooner on the radio yesterday bemoaning the fact that 'nothing will change' until Wenger leaves. The reality is that its no longer even about our myopic manager any more. The entire structure and philosophy of our club is predicated against being the best. The club's acceptance of player talent/performances that falls consistently below the excellence required to win; a seemingly mediocre scouting system; an inability to recognise what it takes to close deals and the continued endorsement of managerial decisions that are clearly misguided. I don't think that this will change post Wenger. I think that second best is now as woven into the fabric of our club's set up as our reputation for doing things the 'Arsenal Way'.

As for Wenger. IMHO he has lost his bottle. He is a slave to his own hubris and has become characterised by his ideals of self sustainability. He takes untimate pride not in winning, but in achieving efficiency - a coeficiency of spending against league (CL) position. Our problem as fans is that this coincides so precisely with the mentality of those running our club that it has come to define it. What Wenger would love is not to be a Man U, but a Leicester. But he does not seem to appreciate that the Leicester's success was a) a one-off, and b) built on belief; ambition and a team work ethic that is very different to his own approach to the game.

So we as fans are left with only two realistic options - to 'enjoy' our club without the excitement of a tilt at silverware (which has been undoubtedly a privilege in the past); or to disengage from the intensity that comes with being title contenders - which is clearly now what Arsenal has done.

That's an excellent post and sums up my own feelings too. I guess I focus on Wenger because I'm still (thought to a much, much lesser degree) torn between remembering this bloke for what he's done and despising him for what he's failed to do and if the cadence is reminiscent of religious phrasing then why not, because the cult of Wenger is alive and well. For those characters who have come in and ripped the heart out of the club as they have turned it into their own Poundland equivalent cash generator, well I always fundamentally hated their guts along with the previous crowd who took the money and left their charge in the hands of thieves. I don't consider any of that lot. They are all scum as far as I'm concerned, not because of who they are but because of what they've done and what they shamelessly stand for.

So that leaves Wenger. And then the question becomes, has he accidentally or coincidentally become a tool for these corporate looters or has he been willingly complicit in their agenda and planning? I believe the nonsense the man comes out with to try and justify his record and position has such a degree of deceit about it that I favour the latter - he's complicit. And that, for me, destroys his legacy and leaves him as the worst manager the club has ever suffered. The man who took something great and vandalised it in the interests of outsiders and at the expense of everyone who loves or ever loved the club. Shocking.

Even if we somehow did a Leicester and all our opponents fell apart and left us floating at the top of the pile with a title in our hands, even that would change nothing. The results would not be driven by ambition, planning, calculating execution in football terms - it would be an unrepeatable fluke.

The only thing that can transform the intentions of the club and get us back into the game is for the fans, all of them, to stand together against everything this club has become. But it won't happen. Consumers are not as committed or fanatical as fans. And consumers are replacing the fans as the latter are priced out or bored out. If anything, the strengthening consumer base will fall neatly and willingly into the clutches of the rapists. And unholy trinity, the corporateers, their front man the money priest Wenger and the cult following.

I don't know what that leaves for the real fans. Can you love something that is rotting from the inside and stinks so badly?

[Marc Overmars]

I used to be happy living in the bubble of "self-sustainment" during the cash shy days. I believed it all too.

What a mug.

"Wenger smokescreens"
"He has a plan"
"When we've paid off the stadium debt"

What a load of bullshit.

That's the most frustrating thing. There was a degree of patience, most understood what we had to work with after the stadium move. Wenger was still fucking up in his own special way but the benefit of the doubt was given.

Now though? It's pathetic.

[dostoy]

I agree with all the above and I feel the same way about wishing I could support another club, Man City maybe, it could never be Man Utd, Chelsea or the unrealistic dreamers next door.

Wenger is obsessed with getting value and spending as little as possible then stealing 4th place and saying we were unlucky.

When you look at what Mourinho does in terms of spending and then usually winning, its hard to believe that two managers in the Premier League can be polar opposites like they are.

I know we can't compete with both Manchester clubs in terms of spending but we could spend a lot more than what we do on proven top class players and be more competitive, especially in the CL.

It won't change until Wenger leaves which won't be until 2020 and I am finding it very very hard to care any more and wish the season was not starting again.

Its frustrating, unbelievable and very sad.

[LDG]

That's the most frustrating thing. There was a degree of patience, most understood what we had to work with after the stadium move. Wenger was still fucking up in his own special way but the benefit of the doubt was given.

Now though? It's pathetic.

The annoying thing is, Wenger is more than capable of bringing us success, if it wasn't for his ridiculous principles, and ignorant behaviour.

[Power n Glory]

The annoying thing is, Wenger is more than capable of bringing us success, if it wasn't for his ridiculous principles, and ignorant behaviour.

It's the club that's capable. It's the club and players that have the potential. Wenger is a dinosaur. His time is over.

[fakeyank]

I blame the fans. We are inept and have no unity. If we cant get together to fight for the club, then we really shouldnt complain about the board and Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

I blame the fans. We are inept and have no unity. If we cant get together to fight for the club, then we really shouldnt complain about the board and Wenger.

To an extent. If you're paying to watch this shit shower you have right to complain. But you don't have to keep paying to watch.

[fakeyank]

To an extent. If you're paying to watch this shit shower you have right to complain. But you don't have to keep paying to watch.

Its not only about paying to watch. Its about having any sort of organized protest against this crap. Many fans are still huge backers of AW. I cannot for the life of me understand what these fans see about the last decade that has been acceptable. I wish we had a passionate supporter base.. unfortunately the move to the new stadium and the ticket prices has alienated many of the working class people i.e. people who would be passionate about the shower of shite we have become. This has been evident EVERY single time I have been to the Emirates. The fans are lethargic at best... I find more vocal fans in local soccer games here in the US.

[LDG]

It's the club that's capable. It's the club and players that have the potential. Wenger is a dinosaur. His time is over.

Oh of course. Not disputing that. He won't change, we know that.

[Power n Glory]

Oh of course. Not disputing that. He won't change, we know that.

It's a damn shame it's come down to this but we're looking at a guy that is well past it.

[bignev]

I blame the fans. We are inept and have no unity. If we cant get together to fight for the club, then we really shouldnt complain about the board and Wenger.

Millions of people have differing opinions. Shocker.

[fakeyank]

Millions of people have differing opinions. Shocker.

Millions of people with the same opinion doing nothing is a shocker.

[Power n Glory]

Its not only about paying to watch. Its about having any sort of organized protest against this crap. Many fans are still huge backers of AW. I cannot for the life of me understand what these fans see about the last decade that has been acceptable. I wish we had a passionate supporter base.. unfortunately the move to the new stadium and the ticket prices has alienated many of the working class people i.e. people who would be passionate about the shower of shite we have become. This has been evident EVERY single time I have been to the Emirates. The fans are lethargic at best... I find more vocal fans in local soccer games here in the US.

I think we'll soon see a mix. Protests and people just staying away from games and switching off.

Edit: Also, nothing against protests and I'm usual all for it but forget protesting about football when more important things are happening in the world. It would be great if people just decided to stop going and one day we see a half empty stadium on the news.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I blame the fans. We are inept and have no unity. If we cant get together to fight for the club, then we really shouldnt complain about the board and Wenger.

We are talking about a football club here, not a military dictatorship. It's pretty hard to gather homogeneity in solution, because people are individuals and have individual solutions as to what needs to be done.

It's not particularly helpful to accuse people who don't agree with you as being inept....especially if you want to create unity.

[dostoy]

How can there still be loads of people who still love Wenger ?

What do they love about him ?

There are none on here or don't seem to be.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think we'll soon see a mix. Protests and people just staying away from games and switching off.

I tend to agree, it would be counter intuitive to think that what happened at the back end of last season is a one off if people are not seeing any meaningful change. I don't expect it at the Liverpool game because people will not want to be seen to play into the hands of Wenger who we know now will accuse the fans of being at fault for poor results.....and yes whilst i still don't dislike him personally, i think that remark was low and a complete abrogation of his own responsibility.

If the result is bad, i can see bad feeling and impromptu protests after the game, which i hope not to see....because i think organised protests are more likely to be effective.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

How can there still be loads of people who still love Wenger ?

What do they love about him ?

There are none on here or don't seem to be.

There are plenty of people out there who are loved, and people won't hear a word spoken against them.....and i don't come close to understanding it. Just the way it is.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Millions of people with the same opinion doing nothing is a shocker.

You don't live in this country do you?

To be fair it's very easy of you to pass the burden of expectation onto other people

[fakeyank]

You don't live in this country do you?

To be fair it's very easy of you to pass the burden of expectation onto other people

I cant change that, unless you can offer me AW's contract. And yes, it is easy for me to pass it off to other people. I can only give my opinion from what I can see and/or hear.. and nothing about what I have heard or seen has shown that the Arsenal fans are united about doing anything to change the rot we are in right now (or will be in the future).

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I cant change that, unless you can offer me AW's contract. And yes, it is easy for me to pass it off to other people. I can only give my opinion from what I can see and/or hear.. and nothing about what I have heard or seen has shown that the Arsenal fans are united about doing anything to change the rot we are in right now (or will be in the future).

What you see is largely confined to social media.

Whether you agree or not, i think people who go to the ground have the attitude of wanting to get behind the team. I don't think i'd want to go to the ground carrying banners i just wouldn't....i've paid to watch a game not be part of an activist movement. People that want to do that....fair play to you and people getting agressive with those who want to protest is as bad as those who accuse those of not wanting to protest as being wenger apologists.

[Power n Glory]

I tend to agree, it would be counter intuitive to think that what happened at the back end of last season is a one off if people are not seeing any meaningful change. I don't expect it at the Liverpool game because people will not want to be seen to play into the hands of Wenger who we know now will accuse the fans of being at fault for poor results.....and yes whilst i still don't dislike him personally, i think that remark was low and a complete abrogation of his own responsibility.

If the result is bad, i can see bad feeling and impromptu protests after the game, which i hope not to see....because i think organised protests are more likely to be effective.

I’d much rather people just stopped showing up. I think we’ve all got our priorities backwards even discussing this shit on a daily basis. Football is not what it used to be across the board. Even outside of the Arsenal nonsense we experience, the money thrown around is pretty disgusting……and we contribute to that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I’d much rather people just stopped showing up. I think we’ve all got our priorities backwards even discussing this shit on a daily basis. Football is not what it used to be across the board. Even outside of the Arsenal nonsense we experience, the money thrown around is pretty disgusting……and we contribute to that.

It's an argument you can apply to anything, Football is like anything else....part of the consumer culture. I think at the risk of trying to speak for most disgruntled Arsenal fans is that we are far more perturbed about remaining parsimonious partly because of the idiosyncrasies of a manager who enjoys unprecedented authority in terms of football decisions and to assist a majority shareholder in maintaining the value of this particular asset in his portfolio.

[Power n Glory]

It's an argument you can apply to anything, Football is like anything else....part of the consumer culture. I think at the risk of trying to speak for most disgruntled Arsenal fans is that we are far more perturbed about remaining parsimonious partly because of the idiosyncrasies of a manager who enjoys unprecedented authority in terms of football decisions and to assist a majority shareholder in maintaining the value of this particular asset in his portfolio.

That's where it really does get to me because we have a manager that speaks a similar language about prices in football being out of control but the motivate behind what he's saying doesn't add up. It's all in aid to appease his shareholders and protect his job.

Football is unlike any other business or form of entertainment. The fans put way more into the sport than what's given back.

[fakeyank]

What you see is largely confined to social media.

Whether you agree or not, i think people who go to the ground have the attitude of wanting to get behind the team. I don't think i'd want to go to the ground carrying banners i just wouldn't....i've paid to watch a game not be part of an activist movement. People that want to do that....fair play to you and people getting agressive with those who want to protest is as bad as those who accuse those of not wanting to protest as being wenger apologists.

Its not just social media. I have been to 4 games in 4 different seasons since 09. Our supporters are lethargic during games. The only time I felt they had voices was when we lost 1-3 to Villa in the opening game of the season 3 years back. This very same mentality can be seen among the fans with respect to 'wanting change' in the club. I would think majority want the club to make some changes but no one is doing anything about it. All talk and no action.. even if there is any action, it is by the minority.

[LDG]

Its not just social media. I have been to 4 games in 4 different seasons since 09. Our supporters are lethargic during games. The only time I felt they had voices was when we lost 1-3 to Villa in the opening game of the season 3 years back. This very same mentality can be seen among the fans with respect to 'wanting change' in the club. I would think majority want the club to make some changes but no one is doing anything about it. All talk and no action.. even if there is any action, it is by the minority.

Tbf, they were all depressed and lethargic cos they knew you were coming, and therefore that the result would be shite.

[Niall_Quinn]

Tbf, they were all depressed and lethargic cos they knew you were coming, and therefore that the result would be shite.

But they cheered up when Letters got punched in the face and the balls for inviting him.

[alexander]

Even outside of the Arsenal nonsense we experience, the money thrown around is pretty disgusting……and we contribute to that.

Im not going to go on some `african kids are dying while football pays £89million for a player` rant, but it is a disgusting state of affairs. I no longer contribute anythng directly to Arsenal, I no longer go to games, buy the shirts, join membership clubs etc etc. They will always be my team, but it has just gone crazy and too far removed from my everyday life.

[Letters]

But they cheered up when Letters got punched in the face and the balls for inviting him.

Fun you! Gary got him the tickets... :angry:

This is a very good thread btw, well done everyone

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Whilst I don't think people like that Positively Arsenal are typical of Wenger supporters, the guy is creepy in his messianic view of the manager. I'm trying to argue with him that the club and not the manager should be setting the value at which us as a buying club rates a player, it should be the managers job just to pick the players he wants the club to get for him.

Yes a manager will have a realistic appreciation of what the club can and can't afford, but actually agreeing a price should be up to the club and it's the way every other club operates. His answer?

"We aren't every other club, if every other club had Arsene. Perhaps they'd do things our way"

And then thought he'd try and trip me up

"What if the club did things your way, and decided against signing Ozil or Sanchez?"

"The club would only have made those decisions if we couldn't afford the players, as we did buy them that obviously wasn't an issue" - Dimwit but then what do you expect of someone who argues that someone who is 28 and 10 months is actually 29.

[Niall_Quinn]

I can't see the point of an (allegedly) adult football fan having anything other than winning as the focus of his investment in a club. Hero worship, that's for kids. Other forms of worship are best reserved for the chapel. So this bullshit cadre of Wenger acolytes is a mysterious thing indeed. You support the club why? Because you think the club knows your name? Or you are somehow connected to the millionaire players? Long gone are the days when the players used to drink in the same pub (before the match in the case of our lads). Having a few rounds with your mates and taking the piss out of opposition fans, a chance to jump around a bit and shout stuff you'd be punched in the face for at any other time - that's about it isn't it? So where these weirdos get the notion the job of a fan is to slavishly devote themselves to the manager and to pitch up all over the shop to defend the bloke at every criticism, it's fucking strange. It's the sort of thing an utter cunt would do. Then again, this bloke certainly seems to be an utter cunt, so maybe it is normal for him.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I can't see the point of an (allegedly) adult football fan having anything other than winning as the focus of his investment in a club. Hero worship, that's for kids. Other forms of worship are best reserved for the chapel. So this bullshit cadre of Wenger acolytes is a mysterious thing indeed. You support the club why? Because you think the club knows your name? Or you are somehow connected to the millionaire players? Long gone are the days when the players used to drink in the same pub (before the match in the case of our lads). Having a few rounds with your mates and taking the piss out of opposition fans, a chance to jump around a bit and shout stuff you'd be punched in the face for at any other time - that's about it isn't it? So where these weirdos get the notion the job of a fan is to slavishly devote themselves to the manager and to pitch up all over the shop to defend the bloke at every criticism, it's fucking strange. It's the sort of thing an utter cunt would do. Then again, this bloke certainly seems to be an utter cunt, so maybe it is normal for him.

Social Media allows people to be more polemic in the views they hold than real life, unless the guy has no friends (which is actually quite conceivable) I don't imagine he spends his time with Arsenal supporters finger wagging at them if they happen to say anything bad about the manager. And i quite agree that kind of Hero Worship is for kids, but at the same time we are seeing it more and more....especially in the political theatre.
I remember being part of a group and as an icebreaker exercise was asked to name someone who i couldn't stand and someone who was an idol.....I had no problem naming the person i couldn't stand (it was George Galloway) but as for someone i admired.....no drew a blank. There are people who i respect for their work and their intelligence (the late Christopher Hitchens for example) but admiration and hero worship is one step away from demagoguery.
Which in itself is dangerous because it discounts the possibility of them being wrong about anything.

[IBK]

Great posts all.

What I've been trying to get my head around is whether, and to what extent the pain has been made worse by the dissimulation that has characterised our club over the past few years. The stadium project thing I can handle - because I do think that the club believed at one stage that this would enable us to compete with the very best. The problem is that this model of self sustainability was overtaken swiftly by events. First the 'oligarch' era; then the banking crisis that screwed up the profit on the residential development, and now the exponential increase in football money that has made the project essentially meaningless.

The dissimulation at AFC has however taken many guises. At board level, selling out to an owner with a clear and obvious track record of creating precisely the same unambitious scenario at his other 'franchises' as we are seeing now was at best naive and at worst calculating. The same thing goes for the 'promise' that once the stadium debt was cleared to manageable levels then we would start to compete again - something that meant that most Gooners were patient and supported the years of selling off our best players to our rivals while becoming firmly a top four rather than a top club.

On the playing side, we have been encouraged time and time again to believe that the club and the manager still harbour real ambitions of achieving success. A couple of 'record signings' seemed to show intent, and our FA Cups were held out as perhaps being the start of a new era.

What feels so disheartening now, however, is that the club and the manager seem to have abandoned even the pretence of wanting to compete with the best teams in this country and Europe. The situation at the start of the 2011/12 season was a shambles with the famous 5 signings in 2 days. Subsequent seasons appeared to show an improvement with Ozil and Sanchez being brought in in 2013 and 2014 respectively. But the nonsensical situation with our midfielders in the 2014/15 season - saved only by the surprising (unplanned) form of Coquelin; the astonishing failure to sign a single outfield player last season, and the debacle of this Summer (so far) has made it plain to see that we have no intention of competing for the premiership or the EPL, and are at best playing the percentages for securing a top four place.

And things have changed palpably. From being told time and time that there is a 'warchest' for the manager to use to sign the best players, Gazidis now says openly that that we can't compete with the top clubs over signings. And I no longer buy that this is merely a statement of the obvious. None of us are expecting a Pogba - or a world record signing. What our own chief executive really means is that we are not prepared to pay the going rate for the type of players who will win things for us. For a club like Arsenal to be reduced to relying on our (not particularly successful) youth system, and scouting players from lower leagues is astonishing really. You would expect it from a Leicester; a Southampton; an Everton - bit not from the world's 5th most valuable football club (2016 Forbes Rankings). To be starting the season with such obvious holes in attack and defence is frankly negligent and tells its own story.

We are committed to self-sustainability not as a means to future success, but for its own sake, and for the interests of our owner. End of. And it has become for me almost insulting for the club to pretend to the fans that the situation is anything other than this. For me it feels as though we fans have been the victims of an extremely cynical corporate project - and the manager has been completely complicit in this. To this extent, I think that we are unique as fans of the country's top clubs, and it hurts.

And the pity of it is that we don't even expect to be a Citeh or a United. All we would like to see is a team with a realisitic chance of competing with the best. It says it all that no-one at AFC is even talking in these terms any more, let alone acting on it.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger has been complicit, in fact, I think he has influenced the direction. The transfer strategy, youth development, wage structure came from his ideas. If he couldn’t deliver CL along with saving us money, we’d have probably seen a different approach a long time ago. Now the danger is that he’s set a precedent for club. The next manager to walk in may find himself having to work in this restrictive culture he’s set up. The building blocks to this corporate takeover…thanks Wenger ;) I hope the next manager that walks in can change or adjust the culture but we won’t know for sure. Whether Stan will allow that is another question. But I really don’t know what to make of Stan. The American sports ownership structure can’t really be compared to anything we have here. I don’t think it’s that easy to invest in new talent when you have a salary cap and draft system. I guess the really kick up the butt is how Stan and the club are so desperate to cling on to Wenger. That kind of says it all.

[Niall_Quinn]

If Stan had bought up and the said shut up, my club, I'll do whatever I want then I'd have more respect for him - which would still only be a very small amount of respect. It's the deceit. The false promises from him and his mates and particularly from the manager. But that's not even the worst part. Worst of all is their belief we'd all swallow it. That we could watch things season after season and still believe the shit they are shovelling. So it was shut up, my club, I'll do what ever I want - and then they took a dump on the fans for added effect. Now the demand, based on the very traditions and loyalties they have abused and destroyed, is for the fans to eat it up with a smile on their faces. And some do.

[Letters]

I think it's a myth that there are people who revere Wenger to the extent some people on here suppose. There may be some but you'll always get extremes of views in a large group of people. I think a lot of people still respect Wenger though. I certainly do. And that's why I will defend him at times, but only from the more extreme opinions. I certainly don't jump to his defence at every opportunity as some have suggested.

I am increasingly frustrated by his damn stubbornness in the transfer market. He's like some OAP grumbling about the price of things. Well yes, things are expensive and yes it is ridiculous but that's the modern game and if you want to compete you need to join in. He has to an extent with Ozil and Sanchez, for a while he was spending folding money. And I can see the logic in not signing more players of the level of Giroud or Welbeck - go big or go home - but we DO need to go big and, once again, he's failed to get his man despite making offers for the sort of players we need.

I don't agree the stadium project was a failure. I don't think we'd have been able to compete long term without doing the move. All the other big clubs have either expanded, moved or are looking to. The notable exceptions being Chelsea but with their other stream of income they haven't really needed to. I do think the timing of it was somewhat unfortunate though in that we did it at the time when the billionaires were having the most impact, there WAS a period of belt tightening in that era, I think Wenger did well during time, and by the time the financial pressures eased we had TV deals which almost wipe out the advantage the new stadium gives us. I don't think you can pin any of that on Wenger.
My problem with Wenger is he's now not making enough of our considerable resources and my problem with the club is that they don't care. It's simply not true that Wenger is under no pressure but he's not under enough. He keeps delivering top 4 and while that shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions it shouldn't be sniffed at either. It doesn't give much margin for error and other clubs have thrown a lot of money around trying to achieve it and failed to do so consistently. But with our resources now he isn't doing enough and the board don't care how we do so long as the finances are good. This is why removing Wenger, although necessary, is no silver bullet.
The last 3 years we:

Finished 4th and won the FA Cup
Finished 3rd and retained the FA Cup
Finished 2nd

If this all seems disappointing and under-achieving then it is a back-handed compliment to Wenger. Before he came along we were a big club but never expected to challenge consistently, historically we hadn't done so. He's got us in a position where we expect to be winning titles regularly and are set up financially to do so, he deserves credit for that.

I believe Wenger still wants us to succeed. He maybe takes a bit too much pride in the perennial top 4 finishes but I don't believe for one minute he doesn't want us to do more. It's increasingly clear that he's either unable or unwilling to do the things required to push on though. I don't think the idea of being self-sustainable is a bad thing in and of itself but we now just seem to be stockpiling money which benefits only the owner and board.

I just think football as a sport is broken. As NQ said in one of the Olympics threads, you see in the Olympics what sport should be about. These preening, cheating, diving multi-millionaires are no part of what I think of as sport. And the clubs (not just ours although we're one of the worst) endlessly see us as customers, not fans. They cynically use the fact that we can't go to the 'shop' down the road, it's the ultimate brand loyalty. You can walk out of the shop but you can't go elsewhere. I literally can't believe they get away with some things, like the ruse of changing their kits every year and people queue up to buy the incrementally different new shirt. :lol:

In brief: Wenger needs to go but I don't think it will make as much difference as some suppose with our board.
The club is broken in terms of what a football club should be and historically was, but we're a small part, well not that small, of a far bigger problem in the sport in general.
All started with Sky, if you ask me.

[Özim]

I think it's a myth that there are people who revere Wenger to the extent some people on here suppose. There may be some but you'll always get extremes of views in a large group of people. I think a lot of people still respect Wenger though. I certainly do. And that's why I will defend him at times, but only from the more extreme opinions. I certainly don't jump to his defence at every opportunity as some have suggested.

I absolutely have no idea why you would respect the man to be honest, he doesn't even treat the fans well, he belittles them, lies to them and doesn't care about their concerns, all whilst he's lining his pockets at their expense. This once great club is no a shadow of itslef on the pitch and even the fans are split and that's because of him.

I have no respect for the guy, he's not a good guy at all IMO and he's destroying what it left of this once great club IMO, with his stubborness, arrogance and holier than thou attitude.

I'd understand it if he was good to the fans, but he really isn't quite the opposite, that's what annoys me the most, he treats fans like dirt and yet they still have respect for him.

[Letters]

I absolutely have no idea why you would respect the man to be honest.
I've explained why elsewhere in the post. I'm not going to get into this discussion with you on this thread which has been mostly good debate.

[Özim]

I've explained why elsewhere in the post. I'm not going to get into this discussion with you on this thread which has been mostly good debate.

I've not seen it, but if you're referring to what he did 10+ years ago, that goodwill ran out a long time ago, right now this club is a shadow of what it use to be thanks to him, I preferred the club before he arrived, we have a big new stadium yes, but that's a cash cow for the owners, other clubs will be able to do the same as us without even cutting back on spending thanks to TV money, so looks like his plan wasn't best implemented.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think it's a myth that there are people who revere Wenger to the extent some people on here suppose. There may be some but you'll always get extremes of views in a large group of people. I think a lot of people still respect Wenger though. I certainly do. And that's why I will defend him at times, but only from the more extreme opinions. I certainly don't jump to his defence at every opportunity as some have suggested.

I am increasingly frustrated by his damn stubbornness in the transfer market. He's like some OAP grumbling about the price of things. Well yes, things are expensive and yes it is ridiculous but that's the modern game and if you want to compete you need to join in. He has to an extent with Ozil and Sanchez, for a while he was spending folding money. And I can see the logic in not signing more players of the level of Giroud or Welbeck - go big or go home - but we DO need to go big and, once again, he's failed to get his man despite making offers for the sort of players we need.

I don't agree the stadium project was a failure. I don't think we'd have been able to compete long term without doing the move. All the other big clubs have either expanded, moved or are looking to. The notable exceptions being Chelsea but with their other stream of income they haven't really needed to. I do think the timing of it was somewhat unfortunate though in that we did it at the time when the billionaires were having the most impact, there WAS a period of belt tightening in that era, I think Wenger did well during time, and by the time the financial pressures eased we had TV deals which almost wipe out the advantage the new stadium gives us. I don't think you can pin any of that on Wenger.
My problem with Wenger is he's now not making enough of our considerable resources and my problem with the club is that they don't care. It's simply not true that Wenger is under no pressure but he's not under enough. He keeps delivering top 4 and while that shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions it shouldn't be sniffed at either. It doesn't give much margin for error and other clubs have thrown a lot of money around trying to achieve it and failed to do so consistently. But with our resources now he isn't doing enough and the board don't care how we do so long as the finances are good. This is why removing Wenger, although necessary, is no silver bullet.
The last 3 years we:

Finished 4th and won the FA Cup
Finished 3rd and retained the FA Cup
Finished 2nd

If this all seems disappointing and under-achieving then it is a back-handed compliment to Wenger. Before he came along we were a big club but never expected to challenge consistently, historically we hadn't done so. He's got us in a position where we expect to be winning titles regularly and are set up financially to do so, he deserves credit for that.

I believe Wenger still wants us to succeed. He maybe takes a bit too much pride in the perennial top 4 finishes but I don't believe for one minute he doesn't want us to do more. It's increasingly clear that he's either unable or unwilling to do the things required to push on though. I don't think the idea of being self-sustainable is a bad thing in and of itself but we now just seem to be stockpiling money which benefits only the owner and board.

I just think football as a sport is broken. As NQ said in one of the Olympics threads, you see in the Olympics what sport should be about. These preening, cheating, diving multi-millionaires are no part of what I think of as sport. And the clubs (not just ours although we're one of the worst) endlessly see us as customers, not fans. They cynically use the fact that we can't go to the 'shop' down the road, it's the ultimate brand loyalty. You can walk out of the shop but you can't go elsewhere. I literally can't believe they get away with some things, like the ruse of changing their kits every year and people queue up to buy the incrementally different new shirt. :lol:

In brief: Wenger needs to go but I don't think it will make as much difference as some suppose with our board.
The club is broken in terms of what a football club should be and historically was, but we're a small part, well not that small, of a far bigger problem in the sport in general.
All started with Sky, if you ask me.

I can agree with much of that, not the respect thing. I believe you have to earn respect (which he certainly did in the early years), and then you even get a period where you can ride on the respect generated. But not forever. He's made big mistakes and he continues to make them. And it's very difficult to have respect for a guy who absolutely insists he's right and won't hear the opinions of others, yet over an extended period he's been shown to be quite wrong time and time again. There's a shocking arrogance there that is very difficult to respect. A stubbornness that exceeds all bounds of reasonableness. He's not even close to being the manager he used to be and his time was up years ago. A smart man would have bowed out on a high and taken on another project. He would have been great in some organisation capacity, a senior figure at FIFA or UEFA, using those principles and beliefs and stubbornness to stick it to Blatter or Platini on a daily basis. He'd have been the ultimate weapon to use against those corrupt bastards. But instead he's made Arsenal his kingdom. It's all about Arsene Wenger, nothing else is a priority. His club, his money, his rules, his decisions. Fine if you are a Ferguson and delivering sack-loads of trophies on a regular basis. Obnoxious otherwise, and toxic. Poisoning every aspect of the club.

Yes it's true the club got a bit unlucky with the timing of events. But there's no such thing as forever in business. The environment changes and you survive by changing with it, adapting, taking advantage of the new terrain. You don't stand there shouting No, No, No and refusing to accept what has happened. You don't continue doing things in a manner that no longer suit the environment, not if you want to survive. Wenger is like a caveman suffering the coming ice age. Running around stark naked, offering up barbed comments to the advancing glaciers, telling all his caveman mates who are getting their extra furs together that all is well, it's warm, the shivering is voluntary and he likes it. To all around it's a pathetic sight. Embarrassing. Sad.

Embarrassing. Sad. Probably the best way to describe Wenger now.

[Özim]

I can agree with much of that, not the respect thing. I believe you have to earn respect (which he certainly did in the early years), and then you even get a period where you can ride on the respect generated. But not forever. He's made big mistakes and he continues to make them. And it's very difficult to have respect for a guy who absolutely insists he's right and won't hear the opinions of others, yet over an extended period he's been shown to be quite wrong time and time again. There's a shocking arrogance there that is very difficult to respect. A stubbornness that exceeds all bounds of reasonableness. He's not even close to being the manager he used to be and his time was up years ago. A smart man would have bowed out on a high and taken on another project. He would have been great in some organisation capacity, a senior figure at FIFA or UEFA, using those principles and beliefs and stubbornness to stick it to Blatter or Platini on a daily basis. He'd have been the ultimate weapon to use against those corrupt bastards. But instead he's made Arsenal his kingdom. It's all about Arsene Wenger, nothing else is a priority. His club, his money, his rules, his decisions. Fine if you are a Ferguson and delivering sack-loads of trophies on a regular basis. Obnoxious otherwise, and toxic. Poisoning every aspect of the club.

Yes it's true the club got a bit unlucky with the timing of events. But there's no such thing as forever in business. The environment changes and you survive by changing with it, adapting, taking advantage of the new terrain. You don't stand there shouting No, No, No and refusing to accept what has happened. You don't continue doing things in a manner that no longer suit the environment, not if you want to survive. Wenger is like a caveman suffering the coming ice age. Running around stark naked, offering up barbed comments to the advancing glaciers, telling all his caveman mates who are getting their extra furs together that all is well, it's warm, the shivering is voluntary and he likes it. To all around it's a pathetic sight. Embarrassing. Sad.

Embarrassing. Sad. Probably the best way to describe Wenger now.

I'm with you, I can agree with a lot of things there, but not the respect thing, I have no respect left for him, not with the wya he behaves, it's both embarrassing and incredibly stupid to behave that way.

Like you said he's made the whole club about Arsenal, shipping out anyone that wouldn't two the line, in many ways he's tried to make himself indispensable thus protecting his position, he decides everything and is involved in things no other manager is, he's even convinced fans that life without him will be too hard to face, so he's been clever in that sense.

The arrogance of the man though, he feels untouchable and basically things he can say and do whatever he wants, for me pound to pound the worst manager out there all things considered due to everything that comes with his tenure, should have moved on many years ago, he may have got a nice send off thanking him then, not now though, he's pushed it too far and been too obnoxious and arrogant about the he'll decide what does and doesn't happen.

I cannot fathom how he can still be respected despite his behaviour, like you said respect has to be earned, people slate Mourinho and yes he's in your face and says and does some awful and embarrassing things (but at least he backs it up by winning), but at least he's up front about it, this guy is just the same, no worse but in a much sneakier/underhand way that seems to fly right over some fans head.

[Bergkampwonderland10]

Should have had a wage cap long ago.
Should have implemented financial fair play.
TV Money and dodgy billionaire overseas owners with little interest in the game itself have killed it. Give the clubs back to the fans to own or at least part-own to a good degree.
Do I think Wenger should have been replaced a while back, yes, but at least the recent FA cup wins certainly brought the smile back to us fans.
He has perhaps outstayed his welcome.... and his ability to miss out on the final piece of the jigsaw doesn't seem to be ending anytime soon.
He has perhaps lost a lot of respect 50% of fans once held for him, but no one can deny how he is still respected in the game by the other half of our fan base and the players.
Whether or not you respect him, doesn't really matter to be honest...what does matter is the game itself. Arsenal is not the only broken club. Liverpool fans protested well about the ticket prices and it's about time every fan base in the premierleague follows suit. There should be protests every game about the ticket prices that have priced us out of the game we love. Arsenal isn't broken. Football is.

[Goonermerree]

I'm new to this forum and just finding out where people stand on certain issues. On another forum I was on years ago in the late noughties, other poster were saying Wenger should leave as he's dragging the club down. Well I was one of those who bought into the 'building a new stadium so we can compete' BS. Because now we can spend some money, apart form Ozil and Sanchez, we still don't. I think they were just token buys to keep the fans happy, because if they were serious about competing properly for the title, those two would have been added to.

Wenger was great when he first came, no doubt about it, but Abramovich's money took away everything that Wenger had built. As others have said, he didn't move with the times. It rankles him to pay big money for players. It rankles with everyone, but that is the market and it isn't going to change any time soon. I keep hoping the Premier League will eat itself up and go back to some semblance of what we perceive as 'normal', but it is getting worse, especially with the stupid money coming in from the TV rights. It's just a shame the fans don't benefit from all of that money by reduced ticket prices. All we do is line the pockets of the owners, the players and their agents.

I think it is time for Wenger to go. Do I respect him? I feel sorry for him more than anything, and angry when we take a beating because he has no nous of how to beat the big teams.

[Ralpheroo72]

:gp:
I'm new to this forum and just finding out where people stand on certain issues. On another forum I was on years ago in the late noughties, other poster were saying Wenger should leave as he's dragging the club down. Well I was one of those who bought into the 'building a new stadium so we can compete' BS. Because now we can spend some money, apart form Ozil and Sanchez, we still don't. I think they were just token buys to keep the fans happy, because if they were serious about competing properly for the title, those two would have been added to.

Wenger was great when he first came, no doubt about it, but Abramovich's money took away everything that Wenger had built. As others have said, he didn't move with the times. It rankles him to pay big money for players. It rankles with everyone, but that is the market and it isn't going to change any time soon. I keep hoping the Premier League will eat itself up and go back to some semblance of what we perceive as 'normal', but it is getting worse, especially with the stupid money coming in from the TV rights. It's just a shame the fans don't benefit from all of that money by reduced ticket prices. All we do is line the pockets of the owners, the players and their agents.

I think it is time for Wenger to go. Do I respect him? I feel sorry for him more than anything, and angry when we take a beating because he has no nous of how to beat the big teams.

[Niall_Quinn]

Should have had a wage cap long ago.
Should have implemented financial fair play.
TV Money and dodgy billionaire overseas owners with little interest in the game itself have killed it. Give the clubs back to the fans to own or at least part-own to a good degree.
Do I think Wenger should have been replaced a while back, yes, but at least the recent FA cup wins certainly brought the smile back to us fans.
He has perhaps outstayed his welcome.... and his ability to miss out on the final piece of the jigsaw doesn't seem to be ending anytime soon.
He has perhaps lost a lot of respect 50% of fans once held for him, but no one can deny how he is still respected in the game by the other half of our fan base and the players.
Whether or not you respect him, doesn't really matter to be honest...what does matter is the game itself. Arsenal is not the only broken club. Liverpool fans protested well about the ticket prices and it's about time every fan base in the premierleague follows suit. There should be protests every game about the ticket prices that have priced us out of the game we love. Arsenal isn't broken. Football is.

Should have genuinely representative government.
Should have equality under the law.
Should have fewer or no rights abuses against human beings and a removal of human rights from corporations.
Should have a value based monetary system.
Should have contractual obligations enforced under law in an equitable manner that shows consideration to all parties.
Should have so many things in the wider society before an industry within that society can hope to be reformed.

Like most corporate ventures, the company likes to enjoy all the rights and benefits afforded by the society and yet it won't meet its own obligations and is actually applauded for placing profit above all else. The shareholder is like a protected species with rights that are inviolable. The deep, deep sickness in society has found the exploit points in sport and latched on. Arsenal is certainly broken, corrupted by the whores to profit who know nothing or care nothing of sport. And yes, all clubs have gone or are going that way. But there's something particularly appalling about the way Arsenal goes about its business. The same tawdry motives but with the arrogance to suggest the club is a paragon in terms of how things should be managed and how the game should be played. What nonsense. We are the epitome of everything that has gone missing from the game over the years since Wenger led a team to an unbeaten season, playing joyous football in the process. Today, if you want to see the prefect example of what football should not be - look at Arsenal.

[Marc Overmars]

I'm never going to stop respecting him because he's provided me with possibly the happiest moments I'll ever have as an Arsenal fan, that will always be appreciated.

His head is completely buried in the sand though, it's quite sad seeing the level of resentment towards him now but you can't say it's undeserved. He is deluded if he thinks he can succeed without dipping in to the clubs considerable resources, not now our rivals are getting their houses in order.

[Letters]

Yes it's true the club got a bit unlucky with the timing of events. But there's no such thing as forever in business. The environment changes and you survive by changing with it, adapting, taking advantage of the new terrain. You don't stand there shouting No, No, No and refusing to accept what has happened.
Well, I agree. And this is why I've lost it with Wenger. I genuinely don't think many other managers in the world could have kept the ship so steady and kept us in the top 4 during the stadium move. We were possibly an Eduardo leg break away from winning the title in 2008 and I honestly think had the billionaires not stuck their beaks in Wenger's record would look far more impressive. But the shackles have come off now financially, we signed Ozil and then Sanchez, won a couple of trophies. All we need to do was keep that going, build momentum. Wenger has always been guilty of this, resting on his laurels when we needed to push on. And that's why I have come to the conclusion he should go. But come on, we did finish 2nd last year. Somewhat fortuitously but still, it's not a slow, sad decline a la Clough who ended up taking Forest down in the end. With our board I'm not convinced that changing manager is a silver bullet. At least Wenger cares how we do, he may not be able to do anything about it but our failings clearly hurt him. They don't hurt the board one bit, the money keeps rolling in and they couldn't give a monkeys. People like that and Sky are the real enemies of football as a sport.

[Goonermerree]

Well, I agree. And this is why I've lost it with Wenger. I genuinely don't think many other managers in the world could have kept the ship so steady and kept us in the top 4 during the stadium move. We were possibly an Eduardo leg break away from winning the title in 2008 and I honestly think had the billionaires not stuck their beaks in Wenger's record would look far more impressive. But the shackles have come off now financially, we signed Ozil and then Sanchez, won a couple of trophies. All we need to do was keep that going, build momentum. Wenger has always been guilty of this, resting on his laurels when we needed to push on. And that's why I have come to the conclusion he should go. But come on, we did finish 2nd last year. Somewhat fortuitously but still, it's not a slow, sad decline a la Clough who ended up taking Forest down in the end. With our board I'm not convinced that changing manager is a silver bullet. At least Wenger cares how we do, he may not be able to do anything about it but our failings clearly hurt him. They don't hurt the board one bit, the money keeps rolling in and they couldn't give a monkeys. People like that and Sky are the real enemies of football as a sport.

This is so true and it doesn't seem to be abating.

[Marc Overmars]

Well, I agree. And this is why I've lost it with Wenger. I genuinely don't think many other managers in the world could have kept the ship so steady and kept us in the top 4 during the stadium move. We were possibly an Eduardo leg break away from winning the title in 2008 and I honestly think had the billionaires not stuck their beaks in Wenger's record would look far more impressive. But the shackles have come off now financially, we signed Ozil and then Sanchez, won a couple of trophies. All we need to do was keep that going, build momentum. Wenger has always been guilty of this, resting on his laurels when we needed to push on. And that's why I have come to the conclusion he should go. But come on, we did finish 2nd last year. Somewhat fortuitously but still, it's not a slow, sad decline a la Clough who ended up taking Forest down in the end. With our board I'm not convinced that changing manager is a silver bullet. At least Wenger cares how we do, he may not be able to do anything about it but our failings clearly hurt him. They don't hurt the board one bit, the money keeps rolling in and they couldn't give a monkeys. People like that and Sky are the real enemies of football as a sport.

I'm sure he cares but I don't think disappointment hurts him (or the squad for that matter) as much as it should. If he was really hurt then he wouldn't be so passive in the transfer market, that's not a question of him being able to do anything about it, it's a choice he makes because he wants to operate in a certain way, he won't allow anything to compromise that.

I could never imagine Mourinho, Pep, Klopp and other top mangers being so passive after underachievement.

[Özim]

I'm sure he cares but I don't think disappointment hurts him (or the squad for that matter) as much as it should. If he was really hurt then he wouldn't be so passive in the transfer market, that's not a question of him being able to do anything about it, it's a choice he makes because he wants to operate in a certain way, he won't allow anything to compromise that.

I could never imagine Mourinho, Pep, Klopp and other top mangers being so passive after underachievement.

Totally agree, the season his team got spanked several times over he seemed to brush it off like it was nothing, when actually it was a humiliation, the debarcle on his 1000th game was an embarrassment for all involved, not convinced many managers would have survived as many beatings like that in one season, as usual though he just moved on, the players weren't even fired up to get revenge in our next meeting with those teams, sums him up really.

Other managers would have been scathing about the performance and been ruthless with players, not him though, it's like it never happened. Before he arrived I can only really remember one bad beating, at the hands of Man U in the league cup and his first few years we barely ever lost, never mind by big margins, last 10 years though there's been too many spankings for a club of our stature.

[Letters]

Well, you can't quantify disappointment but I go back to Dein's interview where he described Wenger's mood after defeats. It clearly hurts him. Why he doesn't do more to change it...
Is it stubborn belief that the players are good enough? (Unlikely given that he keeps bidding for strikers)
Is it stubborn belief that prices are crazy and he doesn't want to get involved? (More likely but he did buy Ozil and Sanchez who weren't cheap, why not push the boat out for a top striker?)
Is it that he's looking longer term and doesn't want to put us in financial problems? (There has been some of that during the stadium move, again Dein's interview backs that up but that doesn't wash any more, we clearly have the money to spend big without putting ourselves in financial difficulty).

Who knows. We seem inept in the transfer market and Wenger clearly needs 'a Dein' to help with that side of things. But I don't buy it's that he's so content with top 4 that he doesn't care about doing better.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well, you can't quantify disappointment but I go back to Dein's interview where he described Wenger's mood after defeats. It clearly hurts him. Why he doesn't do more to change it...
Is it stubborn belief that the players are good enough? (Unlikely given that he keeps bidding for strikers)
Is it stubborn belief that prices are crazy and he doesn't want to get involved? (More likely but he did buy Ozil and Sanchez who weren't cheap, why not push the boat out for a top striker?)
Is it that he's looking longer term and doesn't want to put us in financial problems? (There has been some of that during the stadium move, again Dein's interview backs that up but that doesn't wash any more, we clearly have the money to spend big without putting ourselves in financial difficulty).

Who knows. We seem inept in the transfer market and Wenger clearly needs 'a Dein' to help with that side of things. But I don't buy it's that he's so content with top 4 that he doesn't care about doing better.

At the same time, Dein hasn't been with the club since 2007 and i don't think Wenger has the same drive and hatred of losing that he did. He has taken on far more responsibility since Dein left, and it's just possible that because he sees himself responsible for the day to day running of the club that he isn't so singled mindedly obsessed with winning any more.
It's there in the body language, the worst one was the Southampton game....he should have been livid with the players....as i honestly think that was the worst performance i've seen with him as manager, there have been bigger more humiliating defeats.....but this took the biscuit because the players simply just weren't trying at all....they didn't seem to care and if the players don't seem to care, who is encouraging them to care?

[Özim]

But I don't buy it's that he's so content with top 4 that he doesn't care about doing better.

You say that and yet he always seems proud of his top 4 spot and never really looks too downbeat when he fails to win trophies, it's easy to say he cares, where's the evidence though, he has money if he really cared that much he'd spend it on players we clearly need, the fact he doesn't suggests he doesn't care enough, whatever his reasoning behind it.

[Niall_Quinn]

What he says and what he does don't tally. You can say you are deeply disappointed finishing last in a race because you are a fat bastard and then you can go and eat a pile of pizza. What does your disappointment count for then, because you are the author of your own downfall? Wenger says it hurts to lose, and then he avoids doing what it takes to win. His words and his sentiments shouldn't be accepted as any form of compensation for his failure to translate those words into action. All talk, no trousers.

[Özim]

At the same time, Dein hasn't been with the club since 2007 and i don't think Wenger has the same drive and hatred of losing that he did. He has taken on far more responsibility since Dein left, and it's just possible that because he sees himself responsible for the day to day running of the club that he isn't so singled mindedly obsessed with winning any more.
It's there in the body language, the worst one was the Southampton game....he should have been livid with the players....as i honestly think that was the worst performance i've seen with him as manager, there have been bigger more humiliating defeats.....but this took the biscuit because the players simply just weren't trying at all....they didn't seem to care and if the players don't seem to care, who is encouraging them to care?

Wenger pre 2005 seemed to care about winning and losing, that was evident in his body language, that's gone for me, big defeats are like water off a ducks back.

[Özim]

What he says and what he does don't tally. You can say you are deeply disappointed finishing last in a race because you are a fat bastard and then you can go and eat a pile of pizza. What does your disappointment count for then, because you are the author of your own downfall? Wenger says it hurts to lose, and then he avoids doing what it takes to win. His words and his sentiments shouldn't be accepted as any form of compensation for his failure to translate those words into action. All talk, no trousers.

:goodpost: Hollow words from a man all too accepting of defeats, he's a beaten man and he's lost so much now that defeat no longer hurts like it once use to.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger pre 2005 seemed to care about winning and losing, that was evident in his body language, that's gone for me, big defeats are like water off a ducks back.

He has excuses for each and every one of those hammerings and he takes none of the responsibility on himself. Yes, he'll say the responsibility stops with management. But if he believed that then he'd take the steps necessary to correct the problems. Instead he doggedly reinforces the problems. Again, his words are the opposite of his actions. Either he lies to himself and convinces himself, or else he's just dishonest.

[Özim]

He has excuses for each and every one of those hammerings and he takes none of the responsibility on himself. Yes, he'll say the responsibility stops with management. But if he believed that then he'd take the steps necessary to correct the problems. Instead he doggedly reinforces the problems. Again, his words are the opposite of his actions. Either he lies to himself and convinces himself, or else he's just dishonest.

His 1000th match summed him up for me, a big game against a man he's never beaten who he's had a feud with, a lot to prove and this would have been the perfect match to put down a marker, what happens next, a powderpuff performance where we concede 6 goals and are absolutley humiliated by his (in football terms) arch enemy.

No manager with any ounce of pride would have accepted that like he did, he was utterly embarassed in that game and shown up for the incompetent manager he is.

[Letters]

And another good thread spoilt :rose:

[Özim]

Why because you say so? Noone else things it's spoiled.

You fail to recognise this threat is about whether we're a broken club, we are thanks to the management, discussions about him are very relevant.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

As much as i hate to agree with Zim that game certainly didn't reflect well on him as a manager, it shows he lacks a sense of occasion and seems to prefer to go through the motions. I don't think the reason that Wenger has never beaten Mourinho is even that he is a tactical genius, i think in many respects he is equally one dimensional but he also has Wenger's number and that of his team, he gets his Chelsea players to needle ours, gets them to overcommit in attack and breaks, uses players that out muscle our defence, exploits our weaknesses at defensive set pieces.....he to put it plainly sets his team up with us in mind.

I don't believe Wenger is too stupid to see it, i just think because of the type of players he purchases and because of the way his team is set up he finds it hard to counter the effect.

He seems to be able to neutralise some styles of play but not others, for instance in March when we played Spurs we pretty much nullified their pressing game and i am confident if that Coquelin hadn't been a muppet and got himself sent off we would have gone on to win that game.

[Xhaka Can’t]

This is an excellent thread. I haven't got the time or perhaps the eloquence to post as others have here.

But what I have the time to say is regardless of whether or not Arsenal is a broken Club, it has broken me.

I hope that some time in the future things change. But now? I'm disgusted with this 'club', what it stands for and how it operates.

It clearly exists for one reason only. To generate as much money as it can for those who already have more than we can dream of. And it takes it from anyone it can, right down to the poor sod that has so little, he scrapes together what he can to attend a single match.

They do this while not giving back to us even the bare minimum with a huge pile of funds at its disposal. Money provided by us.

They promised us 'jam tomorrow' for over 10 years now, and we bought it. We invested our love in the club, our time and our money to help build a future where this Club could compete and prosper.

To repay that loyalty in the way the way they have, makes me sick.

In terms of my support for this Club, I'm broken.

[Power n Glory]

I think we're all pretty close to that stage now. The fanbase has been split and it will can only get worse the longer this goes on. What sort of legacy will Wenger leave behind? It sounds crazy considering what's been built but this is a complete failure if it rips apart the foundations of the club. A pointless journey.

I have mixed feelings towards Wenger because of that. He's supposed to be a football man but when you hear some of things he says and think about the agenda behind it... it's rotten. I still can't get over how he said we needed to hike season ticket prices to remain competitive with our rivals. It also irked me last season when he said season ticket prices won't go down because the club needs all the money for transfers. It's utter rubbish. Whether it's revenue from the stadium or sponsorship money, he's not spending. Why? He serves the shareholders and looks after their interests more than he looks after the fans. He gave himself away during that AGM meeting some years back where he told the shareholders they shouldn't have anything to complain about because we were making a profit each year. Totally misjudged that one because the shareholders were Arsenal fans first and upset about the results. Is that how he thinks? If he looks after the club and keeps it running well he's done his job? He's supposed to be a football purist and that's what really sucks about the situation. He should be pushing the agenda for excellence on the field but he doesn't.

[Goonermerree]

I think we're all pretty close to that stage now. The fanbase has been split and it will can only get worse the longer this goes on. What sort of legacy will Wenger leave behind? It sounds crazy considering what's been built but this is a complete failure if it rips apart the foundations of the club. A pointless journey.

I have mixed feelings towards Wenger because of that. He's supposed to be a football man but when you hear some of things he says and think about the agenda behind it... it's rotten. I still can't get over how he said we needed to hike season ticket prices to remain competitive with our rivals. It also irked me last season when he said season ticket prices won't go down because the club needs all the money for transfers. It's utter rubbish. Whether it's revenue from the stadium or sponsorship money, he's not spending. Why? He serves the shareholders and looks after their interests more than he looks after the fans. He gave himself away during that AGM meeting some years back where he told the shareholders they shouldn't have anything to complain about because we were making a profit each year. Totally misjudged that one because the shareholders were Arsenal fans first and upset about the results. Is that how he thinks? If he looks after the club and keeps it running well he's done his job? He's supposed to be a football purist and that's what really sucks about the situation. He should be pushing the agenda for excellence on the field but he doesn't.


Spot on.

[fakeyank]

I think we're all pretty close to that stage now. The fanbase has been split and it will can only get worse the longer this goes on. What sort of legacy will Wenger leave behind? It sounds crazy considering what's been built but this is a complete failure if it rips apart the foundations of the club. A pointless journey.

I have mixed feelings towards Wenger because of that. He's supposed to be a football man but when you hear some of things he says and think about the agenda behind it... it's rotten. I still can't get over how he said we needed to hike season ticket prices to remain competitive with our rivals. It also irked me last season when he said season ticket prices won't go down because the club needs all the money for transfers. It's utter rubbish. Whether it's revenue from the stadium or sponsorship money, he's not spending. Why? He serves the shareholders and looks after their interests more than he looks after the fans. He gave himself away during that AGM meeting some years back where he told the shareholders they shouldn't have anything to complain about because we were making a profit each year. Totally misjudged that one because the shareholders were Arsenal fans first and upset about the results. Is that how he thinks? If he looks after the club and keeps it running well he's done his job? He's supposed to be a football purist and that's what really sucks about the situation. He should be pushing the agenda for excellence on the field but he doesn't.

I dont have mixed feelings about him anymore. I do not like him, and frankly I think I can safely say that I despise him. Why I despise him was outlined by you very well.. he sold out! If he tried and failed, I'd still root for him, but I think he is a crook and probably laughs at the fans while smoking a cigar at Kroenke's summer mansion.

[alexander]

This is an excellent thread. I haven't got the time or perhaps the eloquence to post as others have here.

But what I have the time to say is regardless of whether or not Arsenal is a broken Club, it has broken me.

I hope that some time in the future things change. But now? I'm disgusted with this 'club', what it stands for and how it operates.

It clearly exists for one reason only. To generate as much money as it can for those who already have more than we can dream of. And it takes it from anyone it can, right down to the poor sod that has so little, he scrapes together what he can to attend a single match.

They do this while not giving back to us even the bare minimum with a huge pile of funds at its disposal. Money provided by us.

They promised us 'jam tomorrow' for over 10 years now, and we bought it. We invested our love in the club, our time and our money to help build a future where this Club could compete and prosper.

To repay that loyalty in the way the way they have, makes me sick.

In terms of my support for this Club, I'm broken.

Its been a slow burn for me. 10 years ago I was 25, single, living at home, but 10 years later im married, mortgaged up, etc. I thought that my life moving on meant that I had fallen out of love with the club, but its probably 80-20% the club letting me down. I was a silver member, used to go to 12-15 games a season with my dad (who had been going since the early 60s when he moved to London, and loved it. When the stadium was opened I was there for the first game, excited about this brave new world to come, one where we could compete for and with the best. I drew some solace that although we didnt always (ever) win trophies, we could claim the `most beautiful football` award, and at times it was awesome. But we went into a slide, the players were average, our best players left, season after season, and above all, the football became boring. Dad and I decided to give up the silver membership a few years back, and stopped going. It used to cost over £100 a game with tickets, trains from Essex, food and drink. It was OK when we played great football, but we always ended up coming home thinking `meh`.
We now seem to be trapped in some perfect storm of an owner that is stockpiling money, and a manager that seems to think he is paying out of his own pocket. I used to be so pissed off when they lost, now its so predictable it doesnt warrant me getting worked up about it. It really shouldnt be like that.

[Letters]

This is where we differ. I think he's trying and failing and while his damned stubbornness does grate I believe he's doing what he thinks is best for our long term future. I think Gary's post sums up how I feel very well.

[alexander]

This is where we differ. I think he's trying and failing and while his damned stubbornness does grate I believe he's doing what he thinks is best for our long term future.

Agree, and why I dont go along the wenger is a prick/idiot/twat. He clearly isnt, he is a very intelligent, but his stubborn streak seems to blinker him. He clearly doesnt want to fail, or the club to fail, but at the mo, it feels like it is.

[Power n Glory]

It goes deeper than a stubborn streak. You have to look back on some of statements and ask yourself what's the agenda. Who is he serving? He's been manipulative and coy with some details. If it weren't for Gazidis, I think we'd know next to nothing about our financial state and I think he'd prefer things were kept that way.

[IBK]

It goes deeper than a stubborn streak. You have to look back on some of statements and ask yourself what's the agenda. Who is he serving? He's been manipulative and coy with some details. If it weren't for Gazidis, I think we'd know next to nothing about our financial state and I think he'd prefer things were kept that way.

Agree with this. Particularly the highlighted text. This is the dissimulation we are seeing. From where we are it seems clear that the manager is serving his own agenda, not that of the long term prospects of the club. We have become too accustomed to the idea that Wenger's approach and the best interests of the club are one and the same. They are not - and here's why: The health of a football club such as AFC remains principally dependent upon footballing success, not just balancing the books. And with every craven opening match performance; every indication of a lack of ambition - the reputation of the club; the self confidence of the players and the desirability of Arsenal as a destination for players takes another knock. In every sport, success is built on self belief and momentum. But we have not just lost momentum, we are going backwards. The fans know it; our own players must feel it, and potential transfer targets can clearly see better prospects elsewhere.

I genuinely believe that our palpable lack of ambition is behind the increasing evidence of Arsenal's inability to land transfer targets. And Wenger's reactive stance, together with his vacillation in this regard is thretening to create a prefect storm.

Back to the dissimulation - it may be that Vardy's loyalty to Leicester was a factor in him not coming to us, but this abortive transfer move illustrates clearly the smoke and mirrors that we are seeing constantly from Arsenal and its manager. The saga was clear and obvious evidence that the club needs a striker - yet we are now told that this is not the case. Arseblog today summarises many incidences of similar contradictory statements from our manager. The fact that we are apparently being taken as fools is a testament to whose agenda we are following - and it is not one that has much to do with the health of the club as a football team.

As Arseblog says:

When you couple that with a manager who is untouchable and indulged on every football whim – particularly when it comes to spending money – you set yourself up to underachieve, and that’s what we saw yesterday. Stan Kroenke doesn’t care, Ivan Gazidis can do nothing to counter Arsene Wenger’s inherent conservatism in the transfer market, and the manager’s inability to address the very obvious needs of his team led directly to yesterday’s defeat.

[IBK]

This is an excellent thread. I haven't got the time or perhaps the eloquence to post as others have here.

But what I have the time to say is regardless of whether or not Arsenal is a broken Club, it has broken me.

I hope that some time in the future things change. But now? I'm disgusted with this 'club', what it stands for and how it operates.

It clearly exists for one reason only. To generate as much money as it can for those who already have more than we can dream of. And it takes it from anyone it can, right down to the poor sod that has so little, he scrapes together what he can to attend a single match.

They do this while not giving back to us even the bare minimum with a huge pile of funds at its disposal. Money provided by us.

They promised us 'jam tomorrow' for over 10 years now, and we bought it. We invested our love in the club, our time and our money to help build a future where this Club could compete and prosper.

To repay that loyalty in the way the way they have, makes me sick.

In terms of my support for this Club, I'm broken.

This.

[Power n Glory]

Thought I'd move the conversation here instead of clogging up the transfer talk.

Are we really broken? Came across this link below and have been thinking about how other clubs are run.

http://www.90min.com/posts/439604-twelve-worst-owners-and-chairmen-in-british-football-history

[Niall_Quinn]

Thought I'd move the conversation here instead of clogging up the transfer talk.

Are we really broken? Came across this link below and have been thinking about how other clubs are run.

http://www.90min.com/posts/439604-twelve-worst-owners-and-chairmen-in-british-football-history

I wouldn't say broken.

I'd say fucked beyond repair. But then again, so it British football.

[IBK]

Thought I'd move the conversation here instead of clogging up the transfer talk.

Are we really broken? Came across this link below and have been thinking about how other clubs are run.

http://www.90min.com/posts/439604-twelve-worst-owners-and-chairmen-in-british-football-history

A rogues gallery indeed, and poor examples of football club management. But we are not talking about our club being poorly run. We are talking about the 5th or 6th biggest club on the planet sliding into relative mediocrity and sacrificing footballing success for corporate profit. And in a sense that is both unique and a betrayal of our proud traditions.

[Power n Glory]

A rogues gallery indeed, and poor examples of football club management. But we are not talking about our club being poorly run. We are talking about the 5th or 6th biggest club on the planet sliding into relative mediocrity and sacrificing footballing success for corporate profit. And in a sense that is both unique and a betrayal of our proud traditions.

I've been thinking about this one over the past few days. I think we're unbalanced and focused too much on commercial stability as a club but I don't think it will always be this way. Is the structure of the club that bad? Is it full of unambitious people? I find that hard to believe. When I've heard Ivan speak, he sounds like he knows the concerns of the fans and isn't stupid. Silverware is what will grow the clubs revenue so even if that is the ultimate end goal for the club, they understand that they need titles to achieve that. Or Ivan does at least.

I don't know what happend to him to make that statement this summer but maybe he's falling into line with Wenger's ethos. That sounded more like Wenger than Ivan and rather than resist, just go with the message and let the fans react. My theory is he threw Wenger right under the spotlight when we announced our new financial might and ambitions. The expectation from the fans was ramped up and I don't think Wenger liked that at all. Well, that's my theory.

For me, Wenger needs to be moved on and then we can really asses what's going on with this club. He has no drive or motivation to win so it's really hard to see what we're capable of.

[IBK]

I've been thinking about this one over the past few days. I think we're unbalanced and focused too much on commercial stability as a club but I don't think it will always be this way. Is the structure of the club that bad? Is it full of unambitious people? I find that hard to believe. When I've heard Ivan speak, he sounds like he knows the concerns of the fans and isn't stupid. Silverware is what will grow the clubs revenue so even if that is the ultimate end goal for the club, they understand that they need titles to achieve that. Or Ivan does at least.

I don't know what happend to him to make that statement this summer but maybe he's falling into line with Wenger's ethos. That sounded more like Wenger than Ivan and rather than resist, just go with the message and let the fans react. My theory is he threw Wenger right under the spotlight when we announced our new financial might and ambitions. The expectation from the fans was ramped up and I don't think Wenger liked that at all. Well, that's my theory.

For me, Wenger needs to be moved on and then we can really asses what's going on with this club. He has no drive or motivation to win so it's really hard to see what we're capable of.

It's a theory - but I think the problem is that Wenger is both illustrative and determinative of the culture that we now see at the club. In many ways his 'success' in maintaining us as a top 4 club while spending conservatively has given rise to this culture, but we must also remember that we have an 'owner' who is not only disinterested in success on the pitch, but has stated categorically that this is not what his 'investment' is about:


If you want to win championships then you would never get involved.

Do you see an owner with this attitude backing a more ambitious manager who wants to spend the going rate to succeed?

IF we believe anything that has been said at our club in the past, our conservative, no risk approach was once a means to an end. Now it has become an end in itself. It is difficult to see what is going to happen to change that - because if another manager is likely to want to, or tries to change things, I cannot see the motivation at board level for supporting this.

[Power n Glory]

It's a theory - but I think the problem is that Wenger is both illustrative and determinative of the culture that we now see at the club. In many ways his 'success' in maintaining us as a top 4 club while spending conservatively has given rise to this culture, but we must also remember that we have an 'owner' who is not only disinterested in success on the pitch, but has stated categorically that this is not what his 'investment' is about:



Do you see an owner with this attitude backing a more ambitious manager who wants to spend the going rate to succeed?

IF we believe anything that has been said at our club in the past, our conservative, no risk approach was once a means to an end. Now it has become an end in itself. It is difficult to see what is going to happen to change that - because if another manager is likely to want to, or tries to change things, I cannot see the motivation at board level for supporting this.

http://www.cityam.com/236568/stan-kroenke-lifts-lid-on-why-arsenal-prioritise-business-foundations-over-spending-big-on-transfers



"For me, being an individual owner, I have to have some sort of reality involved.

"If you want to win championships then you would never get involved. I think the best owners in sports are the guys that sort of watch both sides a bit. If you don't have a good business then you can't really afford to go out and get the best players unless you just want to rely on other sources of income.

"Over there [in the UK] it was sort of like 'well, we've got guys from the Middle East, the oil price is over $100, they can spend anything they want'.

"But the problem I saw with all of that; those people can lose interest. It doesn't mean that they will, but I sort of threw that out there: 'What happens when the Middle Eastern family, this thing's costing a lot of money and they decide to go home?' I said what really happens in those situations is the fans get hurt because the players get picked up and paid if they're good, the front office gets other jobs."

I interpret that quote differently. I think that quote is misunderstood and taken out of context. I don’t think that quote is about why he invested in this club. It sounds to me like he’s saying an owner should never get involved with transfers or interfere with the managers work if you want to win titles. I’d like to see his who interview for this. But he goes on to say the best owners watch both sides and if you want the best players the business side has to be run correctly which makes sense.

It goes back to past discussion about the type of owner we want. I think some of the worst owners are the ones pushing players on managers and getting too involved which undermines the managers decisions. In our case, Stan is too passive but reading that article, this is worth noting.


His belief in the power of analytics motivated Arsenal's purchase of Chicago-based analytics company StatDNA for £2.2m in 2012.
"I was always interested in Moneyball," said Kroenke. "Billy Beane, one of his heroes happened to be our manager at Arsenal, Arsene Wenger. Arsene has an undergraduate degree in economics and has always had that analytical thing going on.
"When we acquired a controlling interest in Arsenal in 2011, after that we started pushing pretty hard because it seemed to me that there were some people who were a bit more advanced in that area and so we were fortunate in that we acquired StatDNA. They gave us a big lift in the soccer business."
Bringing StatDNA to Arsenal and noticing a weakness in the structure suggests that there is an interest there and he’s following on some level.

I don’t have a major problem with an owner that’s a bit hands off but I have a problem with him not pressing Wenger to perform. Maybe Stan feels he needs more time to get it right. For us fans, it’s been over decade and we want results now. For Stan and the rest of them, it’s only now they’ve been able to really support Wenger financially and go for bigger targets in the market. For years, Wenger has been going on about financial doping and having to work with restrictions. The focus was always on the Board to deliver the money so he can compete. Now it’s the other way round but we’re starting to see the same excuses. Since the new sponsorship deals, we seen 2 FA Cups and 2nd place. Maybe Stan is thinking we’re making progress. Lord knows how long it will take for him to recognise the managers flaws. I really worry Wenger will accept a new contract. We shall see.

I think if we had a more ambitious manager, they’d make use of the budget they were given. Wenger isn’t doing that at the moment. I don’t think anything is being withheld from him otherwise questions would have been asked about Theo Walcott’s contract extension and the Xhaka transfer fee. As long as we spend what we make, I don’t think the owner will have too much of a problem. The resources and facilities are in place but the manager is stale and out of ideas. Wenger can’t deal with a huge influx of players, he thinks it’s too difficult to integrate them and that reflects in his transfer policy. After cocking up our title defence and conceding to Utd, he only signed Lehman for the Invincible season because he had faith in his team bouncing back. That’s how he’s always been. We need a fresh approach and I don’t think the structure is so broken that a manager like Klopp or even Simeone would struggle to deliver more than what Wenger is now. They have the motivation for success. The manager should have that motivation every season, every game. For an owner and a club in our position, we may be looking and measuring things over a 5 year plan, 10 years…etc. That makes sense for club in our position. But I have no idea how manager can get into that sort of mind frame. It’s not normal.

[Maestro]

I wouldn't say broken.

I'd say fucked beyond repair. But then again, so it British football.

So in other words we're broken back mountain