Ozil - Do we need him?

[Kano]

Lets just make sure we compete this year, if they still want to go then at least we can have no regrets.

That's how I see it really.

[Letters]

Finishing top 4 is not enough anymore, we should be properly challenging for titles & trophies.
Agreed but I think since the money has been available we've actually spent quite well. Wenger hasn't gone nuts but he's bought a level of players which should be able to push us on.
I like Giroud and think the criticism of him is unfair but he's not going to win you a title, players like Ozil and Sanchez.
IMO we have a squad which can compete now, I'm not convinced about our mentality but that would be so whoever we buy.

[fakeyank]

In a hypothetical world, if the only choice we had was to let Wenger go or keep Sanchez/Ozil but not both, which one would you prefer? To me, its the former all day long!

Coming to the real world, I agree with one of the links posted. I'd keep Sanchez over Ozil any time of the day!!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

In a hypothetical world, if the only choice we had was to let Wenger go or keep Sanchez/Ozil but not both, which one would you prefer? To me, its the former all day long!

Coming to the real world, I agree with one of the links posted. I'd keep Sanchez over Ozil any time of the day!!

If you'd asked me who i said was more pivotal earlier in the year i'd have said Ozil, but tuesday night shows how pivotal that Sanchez is to our attacking play he has his markers chasing shadows and frees up so much space for those around him that he becomes invaluable to us.

Ozil's passing and vision is second to none in my view, but this is can be rather limited against sides who will spend the entire game doing all they can to close us down and deny us space. Ozil's ability to find players and assists are exceptional, but he is not providing many assists currently. I'd rather lose neither of them i think they perform together brilliantly and i think add a player like Lucas Perez into the mix we have an attack which bamboozles defences with it's trickery.

[Power n Glory]

Gazidis and Wenger are tuned enough into fan sentiment to know that there would be an open revolt if we allowed either Ozil or Sanchez to leave to a rival. And if the latter especially wanted the fans to accept him receiving a new contract without that much pushback, knows he has to get them to stay. Chips and Kroenke on the other hand ........... those mongs would probably sell them for 100 million combined; they're that clueless. :doh:

I might be naive, but that's the last pillar of hope I'm holding on to. That, and from what we saw with Vardy and Mahrez in the summer, a lot of players don't like upending and moving and would naturally prefer to stay in settled environments. :pray:

It's all because of fucking Man Utd though. They give out these ridiculous mega contracts to big names (250k for Zlatan, 290k for Pogba (after tax so its closer to 400k), 270k for Shrek etc etc) because they don't have CL football, because they have the money from shithouse sponsorship deals (noodle sponsors and Addidas :doh:) and because Ed Woodward is a fucking moron and it just inflates the entire market. :doh:

There was a story that Alexis was using a supposed preposterous offer of 400k from China to help up his demands; I'd like to think that's not true and there's no way he'd actually go to China especially in the prime of his career. I do feel that offers around the ~250k range should be enough for the pair of them so they get parity with the other highest paid superstars in the league as is deserving of their stature.

Alexis especially is irreplaceable. It'd be the height of stupidity to let him go as there isn't another player available in world football who would give what he does; we especially should know that. We spent many summers looking for a world class striker only to not find one and then persisting with Giroud. Not to mention if there was one, he'd cost 70 million + which is ultimately more than what Alexis is demanding.

Gazidis and Wenger still seem out of touch. Some of the statements over the summer were unbelievable and we still went about doing our business the usual way. All so last minute and spending a good chunk of money on players that might not even fit in with our style of play. I’m sure they sense that there will be an outcry if we lose Sanchez and Ozil but I also suspect they’ve kicked the media PR machine into 4th gear to deflect the blame away from the club. It’s what we do.

I mean, that story about a Chinese club eyeing up Alexis…maybe it’s just me, but doesn’t that reek of Wenger and the club trying to whip up some invisible phantom force that’s unstoppable? It’s like he what he did with the oil baron clubs with unlimited resources and made us look powerless and vulnerable. Now it’s these Chinese clubs. A story went out earlier in the year where Wenger was warning the Prem about their spending power along. Now he’s in the press saying Alexis won’t go to China. ;) Really? It’s the same tactic we saw with RVP. Slowly but surely, the blame will go on the players for not signing a new deal. Heck, we even saw it recently with Sagna and fans still fell into the trap.

You’re also right about Manure inflating the market. They’re the worst culprits and always have been.

[Power n Glory]

If you'd asked me who i said was more pivotal earlier in the year i'd have said Ozil, but tuesday night shows how pivotal that Sanchez is to our attacking play he has his markers chasing shadows and frees up so much space for those around him that he becomes invaluable to us.

Ozil's passing and vision is second to none in my view, but this is can be rather limited against sides who will spend the entire game doing all they can to close us down and deny us space. Ozil's ability to find players and assists are exceptional, but he is not providing many assists currently. I'd rather lose neither of them i think they perform together brilliantly and i think add a player like Lucas Perez into the mix we have an attack which bamboozles defences with it's trickery.

Sounds like your starting to see where I’m coming from.

Ozil’s passing is very precise and he gets those acute angles but it’s more ball to feet type passes. It still leaves his team mate with a lot of work to do.

If I were Wenger and trying to find a cheaper alternative, I’d try to get Cesc from Chelsea. He can play in that number 10 role and has a good knack for creating chances as well as ghosting into dangerous areas to score. Most won’t agree with this but I still think he’s the better passer.

[mastermind84]

Cesc doesnt have the legs Ozil has.

The movement Ozil has really helps Alexis a lot. This season for instance, Ozil is not really playing the #10. He is and Alexis are playing as dual false 9s most of the time with Alexis and is often time furthest player forward for Arsenal in front of him on the pass charts and heat maps.

They both need each other but Ozil's play is a big reason for Alexis' form and he has sacrificed a lot of his playmaking to accommodate Alexis. (which is why he is scoring more goals now)

And on top of that, Ozil is the most unique player in world football. You dont replace him. There is no cheap alternative out there. Its literally Ozil and thats it.

Its easy to miss out what Ozil is doing because the English speakiing media inundated with Ray Wilkins types.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

We could still win a big trophy, offer a stack of money and they still decide to leave us. They could sign another contract and agitate for a move after a season like Henry - there's no way of knowing. There is money to consider. Personal career achievements. Personal experience of wanting to play in another country. And family. There are two sides to the negotiation. We could put down he perfect package and it still might not be enough. We're spending on transfer fees like we never thought we would and currently paying wages above what we've expected in recent memory, so I'm really doubtful money will be the deciding factor here at all.

Perhaps, but the chances of that happening are a lot lower than if we weren't to offer a stack of money. And we could at least (legitimately) then claim we tried our hardest and did all we could to keep them.

Unless we're outright insulting in our offers (and honestly I wouldn't put it past Wenger/Gazidis) I do genuinely think there's an inherent bias for them to stay in a place where things are going well for them. A lot of it is massaging their egos and making them feel special. It must be annoying for them seeing filth like Wazza on bigger deals than them whilst their lighting it up week after week so we need to at least offer some kind of parity to that level.


In a hypothetical world, if the only choice we had was to let Wenger go or keep Sanchez/Ozil but not both, which one would you prefer? To me, its the former all day long!

Coming to the real world, I agree with one of the links posted. I'd keep Sanchez over Ozil any time of the day!!

Alexis and it's a no brainer. It's hard but you can find a replacement for Ozil.

There simply isn't an available replacement in world football right now for what Alexis gives to us. But their futures are inexplicably linked to one another and if we lose one, the chances are that the other may decide to go so we HAVE TO KEEP BOTH!


Gazidis and Wenger still seem out of touch. Some of the statements over the summer were unbelievable and we still went about doing our business the usual way. All so last minute and spending a good chunk of money on players that might not even fit in with our style of play. I’m sure they sense that there will be an outcry if we lose Sanchez and Ozil but I also suspect they’ve kicked the media PR machine into 4th gear to deflect the blame away from the club. It’s what we do.

I mean, that story about a Chinese club eyeing up Alexis…maybe it’s just me, but doesn’t that reek of Wenger and the club trying to whip up some invisible phantom force that’s unstoppable? It’s like he what he did with the oil baron clubs with unlimited resources and made us look powerless and vulnerable. Now it’s these Chinese clubs. A story went out earlier in the year where Wenger was warning the Prem about their spending power along. Now he’s in the press saying Alexis won’t go to China. ;) Really? It’s the same tactic we saw with RVP. Slowly but surely, the blame will go on the players for not signing a new deal. Heck, we even saw it recently with Sagna and fans still fell into the trap.

You’re also right about Manure inflating the market. They’re the worst culprits and always have been.

Well the club did also cave in on Theo's demands a few years back probably to stave of a similar revolt and our financial power is a lot better than then, not to mention that Ozil/Alexis are far more important than Theo was so I don't think it's a lost cause just yet to expect Wenger/Gazidis to back down.

And interesting take on the China story. Would have thought it would have been Alexis' people to "leak/make it up" in order to increase the pressure on the club to up their offer.

[mastermind84]

Alexis and it's a no brainer. It's hard but you can find a replacement for Ozil.

There simply isn't an available replacement in world football right now for what Alexis gives to us. But their futures are inexplicably linked to one another and if we lose one, the chances are that the other may decide to go so we HAVE TO KEEP BOTH!
who is a player like Ozil?

You could replace Alexis with Reus or even sign Aubameyang to play CF.

Cesc Fabregas is not Ozil. Madrid never replaced Ozil. Who is that player that fits Ozil's profile in world football?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Sounds like your starting to see where I’m coming from.

Ozil’s passing is very precise and he gets those acute angles but it’s more ball to feet type passes. It still leaves his team mate with a lot of work to do.

If I were Wenger and trying to find a cheaper alternative, I’d try to get Cesc from Chelsea. He can play in that number 10 role and has a good knack for creating chances as well as ghosting into dangerous areas to score. Most won’t agree with this but I still think he’s the better passer.

I wouldn't go as far as that, I think he's just as adept at lobbed passing as he is ball to feet passing

My comment is based on his current form relative to that of Alexis Sanchez

[fakeyank]

who is a player like Ozil?

You could replace Alexis with Reus or even sign Aubameyang to play CF.

Cesc Fabregas is not Ozil. Madrid never replaced Ozil. Who is that player that fits Ozil's profile in world football?

Madrid won two CL titles after Ozil left. Dont think it is right to say 'they never replaced him'.

[mastermind84]

Madrid won two CL titles after Ozil left. Dont think it is right to say 'they never replaced him'.
They didnt replace him.

They play a different football style now than before with Ozil. They won two CLs with one of the runs being as flukey as United's 2011 run to the CL final.

Ideally we dont have to replace either, but Ozil is probably the greatest player we've had since Henry because of how influential he is for everyone. His appreciation of space is the key to a lot of our attacking play. He is the only player I have ever seen create chances without touching the ball, and is doing that intentionally.

[fakeyank]

They didnt replace him.

They play a different football style now than before with Ozil. They won two CLs with one of the runs being as flukey as United's 2011 run to the CL final.

Ideally we dont have to replace either, but Ozil is probably the greatest player we've had since Henry because of how influential he is for everyone. His appreciation of space is the key to a lot of our attacking play. He is the only player I have ever seen create chances without touching the ball, and is doing that intentionally.

I think its a big statement to call him the greatest player since Henry when he has only been here 3 seasons, one of which he was above average at best (his first season). And yes, ideally we wont have to replace either, but knowing Arsenal, what are the odds we will keep both? If I were forced to put a bet, I'd almost certainly put down a bet on one of them leaving next season.

[mastermind84]

I think its a big statement to call him the greatest player since Henry when he has only been here 3 seasons, one of which he was above average at best (his first season). And yes, ideally we wont have to replace either, but knowing Arsenal, what are the odds we will keep both? If I were forced to put a bet, I'd almost certainly put down a bet on one of them leaving next season.

I feel very confident saying he is better than everyone we have had here since Henry. His first season here, we won the FA Cup. The first trophy of any kind this club has won since 2005.

The guy is a special player.

If Arsenal wants to be an elite club and compete for the top honors, both have to be re-signed. Johnny Taylor said "ITs cheaper to keep her," and in the case of Ozil and Sanchez it is much cheaper to pay them their worth and try and replace them.

[selassie]

I feel very confident saying he is better than everyone we have had here since Henry. His first season here, we won the FA Cup. The first trophy of any kind this club has won since 2005.

The guy is a special player.

If Arsenal wants to be an elite club and compete for the top honors, both have to be re-signed. Johnny Taylor said "ITs cheaper to keep her," and in the case of Ozil and Sanchez it is much cheaper to pay them their worth and try and replace them.

Ozil the best player we have had since Henry? Not even close...peak Cesc was better than him, he was blitzing it with assists and goals...

RVP too was better than him or more crucial to the team.

Don't get me wrong Ozil is a very good player and someone who we need to move forward but he's not our best since Henry IMO.

[Power n Glory]

They didnt replace him.

They play a different football style now than before with Ozil. They won two CLs with one of the runs being as flukey as United's 2011 run to the CL final.

Ideally we dont have to replace either, but Ozil is probably the greatest player we've had since Henry because of how influential he is for everyone. His appreciation of space is the key to a lot of our attacking play. He is the only player I have ever seen create chances without touching the ball, and is doing that intentionally.

Ozil’s style is too subtle and too dependent on his own team mates being able to exploit the space he creates. It’s why things didn’t work with Giroud and if he were to play for a lower team like West Ham or Southampton, he’d have to be more proactive. Sanchez would be a beast where ever he goes. It helps that he has quality around him, but as seen with Chile, he’ll impose himself on the game.

I disagree with the idea that Sanchez is scoring more because of Ozil. Look at his recent hat trick. Not saying Ozil has no involvement but it’s taking a lot a way from Sanchez. His assists are often overlooked as well. He’d succeed in any Arsenal line up. I’m not sure if that’s the case for Ozil. Also, it’s not as if we haven’t seen this level of football before. In fact, most here would agree that our style is a lot worse than what it was when we had Cesc, RVP, Ade and Rosicky. We’d create so many chances it even had people here convinced Chamakh was a good signing when he scored something like 10 goals in his first few months.

For me, Sanchez is the best player we’ve signed singe Henry. Cesc and RVP after that.

[Niall_Quinn]

Cesc and RvC were very, very good at their peaks. RvC more so, he was close to having that special sauce that really marks out the elite players. The special ability you can see in Ozil every time the ball arrives at his feet. Ozil just knows the game. It pisses people off how well he knows the game, they mistake it for a lack of effort. Get the ball, control it without a thought because, fuck, that's the very least a professional should be able to do, right? Wrong - take a look around. Take the ball, already in the knowledge of what is happening on the pitch. Find the pass if it exists, keep possession if it does not. Ozil's game depends so much on who is around him. Cesc had fearsome weapons around him, for some of the time at least. Ozil has had, until recently, Giroud and Theo. But now we see what happens when another player right on the verge of that elite status, Alexis, is moved into a prominent role. The electricity is really flowing now between the two. Finally we have a use for Ozil, the precision instrument. Xhaka could be the next player on that wavelength, once he tunes in, if he's allowed to tune in. This is how great teams are built, with great players. Not with good or flashy players - but with great players. Ozil is a great player. Hard to judge him like for like because there's nobody we've had like him. Closest would not be Cesc or RvC - rather Pires. He was another marvellous player, on another level.

[Power n Glory]

Ozil the best player we have had since Henry? Not even close...peak Cesc was better than him, he was blitzing it with assists and goals...

RVP too was better than him or more crucial to the team.

Don't get me wrong Ozil is a very good player and someone who we need to move forward but he's not our best since Henry IMO.

I agree with you on RVP and Cesc. I thought that would be an unpopular opinion. But we saw some magic from those guys. Performances that really carried the team. If Wenger had taken the FA Cup more seriously back then and we had easier draws, they'd have won at least one FA Cup. But they've won the league title since and both played pivotal parts to winning.

[Power n Glory]

Cesc and RvC were very, very good at their peaks. RvC more so, he was close to having that special sauce that really marks out the elite players. The special ability you can see in Ozil every time the ball arrives at his feet. Ozil just knows the game. It pisses people off how well he knows the game, they mistake it for a lack of effort. Get the ball, control it without a thought because, fuck, that's the very least a professional should be able to do, right? Wrong - take a look around. Take the ball, already in the knowledge of what is happening on the pitch. Find the pass if it exists, keep possession if it does not. Ozil's game depends so much on who is around him. Cesc had fearsome weapons around him, for some of the time at least. Ozil has had, until recently, Giroud and Theo. But now we see what happens when another player right on the verge of that elite status, Alexis, is moved into a prominent role. The electricity is really flowing now between the two. Finally we have a use for Ozil, the precision instrument. Xhaka could be the next player on that wavelength, once he tunes in, if he's allowed to tune in. This is how great teams are built, with great players. Not with good or flashy players - but with great players. Ozil is a great player. Hard to judge him like for like because there's nobody we've had like him. Closest would not be Cesc or RvC - rather Pires. He was another marvellous player, on another level.

Cesc had shit around him all over the pitch. Lehman on decline only to be replaced by Almunia then Chesney. A terrible backline from Gallas, Toure, Vermaelen, Eboue, Clichy, Traore, Djourou, Senderos. Sagna was the best defender he played with. Kos played with Cesc but wasn't good until he formed a partnership with Merts.

I mention Eboue in defence but remember when Wenger would play him on the right wing? :lol: Gilberto was on the decline as well and could hardly pass the ball forward. Rosicky was often injured. He'd often be playing with Diaby, Denilson, Hleb and Nasri in the midfield. Walcott was often poor.

Up front we at least had strikers with some pace. But let's not forget the games where we were depending on Bendy and Chamakh! RVP was often injured and after one good season where we came close to winning the league, Ade fucked off shortly after. Giroud is a different striker but not shades below some of the guys we were used to seeing.

I'm amazed we finished top 4 with some of those guys when I think about it. But then again, the standard in the Prem was piss poor. But I still enjoyed the way we played. With unknown and inexperienced players, we really put the beating on some teams.

[Niall_Quinn]

Cesc had shit around him all over the pitch. Lehman on decline only to be replaced by Almunia then Chesney. A terrible backline from Gallas, Toure, Vermaelen, Eboue, Clichy, Traore, Djourou, Senderos. Sagna was the best defender he played with. Kos played with Cesc but wasn't good until he formed a partnership with Merts.

I mention Eboue in defence but remember when Wenger would play him on the right wing? :lol: Gilberto was on the decline as well and could hardly pass the ball forward. Rosicky was often injured. He'd often be playing with Diaby, Denilson, Hleb and Nasri in the midfield. Walcott was often poor.

Up front we at least had strikers with some pace. But let's not forget the games where we were depending on Bendy and Chamakh! RVP was often injured and after one good season where we came close to winning the league, Ade fucked off shortly after. Giroud is a different striker but not shades below some of the guys we were used to seeing.

I'm amazed we finished top 4 with some of those guys when I think about it. But then again, the standard in the Prem was piss poor. But I still enjoyed the way we played. With unknown and inexperienced players, we really put the beating on some teams.

Cesc started making a name for himself when Wiltord and Freddie were still in the shirt. And RvC and Arshavin. We THOUGHT we were on a downward slide back then but we had no idea what was to come and how bad it would get. Apart from RvC's one man season, this is the first time in years we've seen an upturn in the quality we have on the pitch. And that's down to 2 players, the ones we need to sign, no excuses, no bullshit.

[Power n Glory]

Cesc started making a name for himself when Wiltord and Freddie were still in the shirt. And RvC and Arshavin. We THOUGHT we were on a downward slide back then but we had no idea what was to come and how bad it would get. Apart from RvC's one man season, this is the first time in years we've seen an upturn in the quality we have on the pitch. And that's down to 2 players, the ones we need to sign, no excuses, no bullshit.

Cesc got his start when we still had legends like Henry and Pires at the club. Wiltord had left by the time Cesc was starting. Most of the Invincibles were playing limited roles in fact. But I;'m talking about Cesc was he was 16 years old.

When those guys had left and Cesc and Cesc was in his early 20s, the goals and assist increased by quite a margin. From 07/08 onwards. 15 goals, 22 assists, 19 goals, 20 assists....he played at his best without the Invincible guy. RVP was often injured and only after Cesc left did we see RVP at his peak. We never actually saw those two at their peak together. The closest we had was in 07/08 when we came close to the title but RVP picked up an injury.

Arshavin had one good season for us. A good player but doesn't come close to Sanchez. Cesc also had Nasri but he doesn't compare to Cazorla.

Pound for pound the squad we have no is a lot better than what we have now but we play terrible football.

[mastermind84]

Ozil the best player we have had since Henry? Not even close...peak Cesc was better than him, he was blitzing it with assists and goals...

RVP too was better than him or more crucial to the team.

Don't get me wrong Ozil is a very good player and someone who we need to move forward but he's not our best since Henry IMO.

hell no! Not even close, and he wasnt a big match player.

Ozil is Filet Mignon, Cesc is roast beef.

RVP had a great 18 months but was injured the rest of the time.


Ozil’s style is too subtle and too dependent on his own team mates being able to exploit the space he creates. It’s why things didn’t work with Giroud
he damn near set the premier league assists record in the premiership with Giroud last year, so maybe his subtle style actually boosts his teammates production?

And yes, Sanchez is scoring more because of Ozil. THe chances he is getting now are clean as fack because he and Ozil have created a strike partnership. Alexis does not appreciate space at all and will move any and everywhere. If you have him partnering Theo or Giroud, Alexis will be on their toes. Having someone like Ozil to move defenders for him, and anticipate where Alexis will be so that he can move into the vacated space is influential in our attacking play.

I really hope Ozil does not get injured because our attacking play ALWAYS craters when he is out and our team is nowhere near as good. Ozil is a damn alien. You don't replace players like him, you completely change your system. Alexis, you can find replacements. Whether Arsenal can afford to do it is a different conversation, but he can be replaced. Ozil is probably the most unique player on the planet.



and if he were to play for a lower team like West Ham or Southampton, he’d have to be more proactive.
If Ozil played for those teams, his teammates would become more productive.


I have to constantly say this because a lot of posters on this forum do not really get what Ozil does even after all this time, but he makes his teammates perform better. That is his super power. Our eyes are trained to focus in on the guy who is running like mad, scoring goals, or playing no look final balls because its easier to see that. We understand that. Ozil is something completely different. He plays passes to set up chances that are down the line. He creates chances by moving into certain spaces. And he always finds space, which is crazy considering where he receives the ball on the pitch, and he has accurate passes in the most congested area on the pitch. I dont care if that comes across as snobbish and condescending, its just the truth. Its why you have idiots like Ray Wilkins, Robbie Savage, etc saying they dont rate Ozil that highly and that Wilshere could replace him because they have good technique and can pick a pass. The guy is absolutely special. I hope we dont have to make that choice between those two, but if we had to choose between Ozil and Sanchez, its Ozil and its not even close.

[Power n Glory]

Mastermind...in fact, this question goes out to everyone. Are we playing a completely different style of football never seen at Arsenal before?


I have to constantly say this because a lot of posters on this forum do not really get what Ozil does even after all this time

This is what I also disagree with. It's not hard to understand what he does, it's a question of how effective it is. The hat trick he scored against Ludogorets, his game against Napoli in his first season....if we were showing that sort of form week in week out which would you say is more effective?

[Marc Overmars]

My opinion of Ozil has gone up and down but I've warmed to him and I understand the work he does. However I don't think he belongs on too high of a pedestal, that's pretty much absolving him of any responsibility and no player is above that. Opinion on him is mixed with good reason, he is just as guilty as anyone of going missing in the big moments.

[Power n Glory]

he damn near set the premier league assists record in the premiership with Giroud last year, so maybe his subtle style actually boosts his teammates production?

In Giroud's first season, without Ozil in the team and without Sanchez, he scored 17 in total. 11 in the league. In Ozil's best season for us he scored 24 in total, 16 in the league. It's an improvement but not massive.

Say what you want about Cesc and Ade, but Ade has never scored 30 in a season ever since and he wasn't close to being a 30 striker prior to Cesc either. Couldn't even scrape 20 goals. Giroud had at least managed to score 25 goals before coming to Arsenal and hasn't topped that record since.

[Niall_Quinn]

Cesc got his start when we still had legends like Henry and Pires at the club. Wiltord had left by the time Cesc was starting. Most of the Invincibles were playing limited roles in fact. But I;'m talking about Cesc was he was 16 years old.

When those guys had left and Cesc and Cesc was in his early 20s, the goals and assist increased by quite a margin. From 07/08 onwards. 15 goals, 22 assists, 19 goals, 20 assists....he played at his best without the Invincible guy. RVP was often injured and only after Cesc left did we see RVP at his peak. We never actually saw those two at their peak together. The closest we had was in 07/08 when we came close to the title but RVP picked up an injury.

Arshavin had one good season for us. A good player but doesn't come close to Sanchez. Cesc also had Nasri but he doesn't compare to Cazorla.

Pound for pound the squad we have no is a lot better than what we have now but we play terrible football.

That's my point. Cesc developed in a far more productive and gifted environment than that which Ozil was parachuted into. Cesc complimented what was already there. Ozil is very unfairly expected to build something from scratch. And correct, what I said, now Ozil has a proper player to work with we can slowly see the quality of our game trend up. Still in patches, still with great inconsistency. But for the first time in a long time you can see the reemergence of quality. Of course we are still 2 players short. Always 2 players short. If we spend 100 mill on 2 top tier players in the summer, and get that business done early, not only should we retain our two star players but by adding 2 more I don't see why we couldn't go toe to toe with anyone in this league. It's on that knife edge. At one extreme we lose 2 stars and it's back to square one. At the other extreme (which isn't extreme at all and in fact is what we should be doing and should have done a long time ago) add a couple more stars and really push on. I wonder which way the club will go? Yeah right.

[Niall_Quinn]

Mastermind...in fact, this question goes out to everyone. Are we playing a completely different style of football never seen at Arsenal before?



This is what I also disagree with. It's not hard to understand what he does, it's a question of how effective it is. The hat trick he scored against Ludogorets, his game against Napoli in his first season....if we were showing that sort of form week in week out which would you say is more effective?

No. Quite obviously we've seen better football at Arsenal, in fact possibly the best football ever seen anywhere (in terms of sheer entertainment at least).

However. We now have 2 pieces of a puzzle that clearly has the potential to deliver special football. Or say 6 pieces if you roll Kos, Cech, Bellerin and maybe Xhaka into that mix. Santi is on the way out. Theo is Theo. Ramsey seems determined to avoid hi potential. Wilshere is probably done now. So 6 pieces. We need 8-10 more. They don't have to all be multi-billion quid superstars, but they need to be a step up from what we have. An ambitious manager with a football focused board could do special things at this club, the sort of thing the other lot can't replicate with a limitless chequebook.

[Power n Glory]

That's my point. Cesc developed in a far more productive and gifted environment than that which Ozil was parachuted into. Cesc complimented what was already there. Ozil is very unfairly expected to build something from scratch. And correct, what I said, now Ozil has a proper player to work with we can slowly see the quality of our game trend up. Still in patches, still with great inconsistency. But for the first time in a long time you can see the reemergence of quality. Of course we are still 2 players short. Always 2 players short. If we spend 100 mill on 2 top tier players in the summer, and get that business done early, not only should we retain our two star players but by adding 2 more I don't see why we couldn't go toe to toe with anyone in this league. It's on that knife edge. At one extreme we lose 2 stars and it's back to square one. At the other extreme (which isn't extreme at all and in fact is what we should be doing and should have done a long time ago) add a couple more stars and really push on. I wonder which way the club will go? Yeah right.

At our time where we quickly stripping away the Invincible squad and selling a star a season during the Emirates transition. You'd consider that a more productive and gifted environment? Where we were the least active team in the transfer market and yet to break our Wiltod transfer record? You have to rethink that one. Project youth? Come on now. We couldn't defend for toffee! We'd play inexperienced kids in all positions. Today's squad has all internationals, experienced players that have actually won something with previous clubs and country.

We had to transition from the Invincibles 4-4-2 to 4-5-1 and on to 4-3-3 with Cesc's era. We had to build from scratch. Literally. We were a total mess and Wenger had to tear up the rule book whilst working to a much smaller budget compared to what we have now. No way would we have been able to get Cech from Chelsea. We'd have never spend that much money on Mustafi during an injury crisis. Heck, we'd have never bought a player like Welbeck if our main striker went injured before the season kicked off.

Our system isn't perfect right now but we have way more options to play with in terms of experience. We haven't had a sell a main starting players in ages and have been able to build for once. I strongly disagree.

[Power n Glory]

No. Quite obviously we've seen better football at Arsenal, in fact possibly the best football ever seen anywhere (in terms of sheer entertainment at least).

However. We now have 2 pieces of a puzzle that clearly has the potential to deliver special football. Or say 6 pieces if you roll Kos, Cech, Bellerin and maybe Xhaka into that mix. Santi is on the way out. Theo is Theo. Ramsey seems determined to avoid hi potential. Wilshere is probably done now. So 6 pieces. We need 8-10 more. They don't have to all be multi-billion quid superstars, but they need to be a step up from what we have. An ambitious manager with a football focused board could do special things at this club, the sort of thing the other lot can't replicate with a limitless chequebook.

Exactly. Which goes back to my last post about Cesc and how the team has been developed since the Invincible squad broke apart. The tippy tappy super possession style we complain about got old way before Ozil arrived and we’re still playing the same stuff and encountering the same problems. Mastermind is talking as if we’ve never played possession football before or had a team that could create chances. We used to create far more clear cut chances and waste a heck of a lot more.

As for the missing piece of the puzzle….that’s the 2% away from domination argument. We’ve heard that before. We’re a better team with Ozil but I think people go overboard with it.

[mastermind84]

a) who said we havent played possession football before?
b) where did I say anything about Ozil bringing a great style of play to Arsenal?
c) stop putting words in my posts that are not there.
d) Ozil is a much better player than Cesc was for us
e) we aren't exactly playing possession football this season.
f) Ozil 2 trophies where he was a key cog in the team, Cesc 0
g) Ozil was the first established world class player brought to Arsenal since Sol Campbell and the first attacker that was world class since Bergkamp
h) When Ozil has bad games, our attack goes rotten. He has a lot, but he is remarkably consistent
i) If you say something lke "Ozil needs to score a hat trick to show how great he is" then no matter how much you type it, you don't understand Ozil's value to this team.

[Niall_Quinn]

Exactly. Which goes back to my last post about Cesc and how the team has been developed since the Invincible squad broke apart. The tippy tappy super possession style we complain about got old way before Ozil arrived and we’re still playing the same stuff and encountering the same problems. Mastermind is talking as if we’ve never played possession football before or had a team that could create chances. We used to create far more clear cut chances and waste a heck of a lot more.

As for the missing piece of the puzzle….that’s the 2% away from domination argument. We’ve heard that before. We’re a better team with Ozil but I think people go overboard with it.

Well my argument was that Cesc had the luxury of easing himself into a team that still had the Invincible influence all over it. Ozil is being measured as the guy who hasn't arrived and immediately transformed the club. It's not a valid comparison, the circumstances are so different. Cesc wasn't hailed as the saviour of the club when he stepped on the pitch. We didn't even know we needed a saviour back then. The road back now is torturous, made harder by the fact Wenger learns at such a slow rate (1 lesson per half decade).

[WMUG]

Of course we are still 2 players short. Always 2 players short. If we spend 100 mill on 2 top tier players in the summer, and get that business done early, not only should we retain our two star players but by adding 2 more I don't see why we couldn't go toe to toe with anyone in this league. It's on that knife edge. At one extreme we lose 2 stars and it's back to square one. At the other extreme (which isn't extreme at all and in fact is what we should be doing and should have done a long time ago) add a couple more stars and really push on. I wonder which way the club will go? Yeah right.

Which areas do you reckon those players need to be in?

[Power n Glory]

a) who said we havent played possession football before?
b) where did I say anything about Ozil bringing a great style of play to Arsenal?
c) stop putting words in my posts that are not there.
d) Ozil is a much better player than Cesc was for us
e) we aren't exactly playing possession football this season.
f) Ozil 2 trophies where he was a key cog in the team, Cesc 0
g) Ozil was the first established world class player brought to Arsenal since Sol Campbell and the first attacker that was world class since Bergkamp
h) When Ozil has bad games, our attack goes rotten. He has a lot, but he is remarkably consistent
i) If you say something lke "Ozil needs to score a hat trick to show how great he is" then no matter how much you type it, you don't understand Ozil's value to this team.

You're going to have explain how Ozil is helping Sanchez score more goals. I can't accept blanket statements without specific examples. Saying Ozil is shifting players out of position for Sanchez is too vague. Take that West Ham hat trick as an example, explain how because I see a lot of work from Sanchez on those.

Also, out of the 13 goals Sanchez has scored so far this season, Ozil has provided 0 assists for Sanchez. But on the other hand, this is the most goals Ozil has scored in his career over a season. Alexis has set up 4 out of the 8 goals Ozil has scored this season. Whose influencing who here? You might have it backwards. Very unfair to say Sanchez is scoring more because of Ozil even though Sanchez scoring goals is nothing new. Club and country he scores. That's not the case for Ozil.

You said Ozil was the most influential player we had at Arsenal. How so? What his signing represents was key but for me, Sanchez and Cazorla are the two players I've seen shift how we play tactically.

I don't care about Ozil's trophy count here at Arsenal either. Tally up the amount of money we have spent since Cesc has left. Cesc was in his early 20s leading a young, inexperienced Wenger squad. Replace young Cesc for experienced Ozil around that same era and we'd still win nothing. I'd disagree with anyone who'd think Ozil could have done more to win us trophies around the time it was project youth.

I was wrong about Ozil vs ludo. It wasn't the hat trick where he scored that superb goal where he's dropping defenders on their ass. I'd prefer if he used his superior ball control to craft space over movement that's depending on the defender getting suckered into vacating space along with our players have the intelligence and ability to take advantage. Too many moving parts depending on others. I prefer when he's aggressive and proactive. That doesn't mean I don't know his value to the team. The football snobbery with you never stops. :lol: I just don't place his value above a more aggressive and direct player. Ancelotti felt the same way.

[Power n Glory]

Well my argument was that Cesc had the luxury of easing himself into a team that still had the Invincible influence all over it. Ozil is being measured as the guy who hasn't arrived and immediately transformed the club. It's not a valid comparison, the circumstances are so different. Cesc wasn't hailed as the saviour of the club when he stepped on the pitch. We didn't even know we needed a saviour back then. The road back now is torturous, made harder by the fact Wenger learns at such a slow rate (1 lesson per half decade).

It's no comparison at all. You have to think back to project youth and the state of the team. Cesc is a young 16 year old as well. There is no easing into a better system. It was unstable. Players left every year so you're having to tear up the playbook and start again each year. What's worse is that you're having yo adjust to playing with much lower quality players. Henry removed and over to Ade and Bendy or Chamakh. Gilberto leaves, Flam develops and then leaves, now play with Denilson. There is no easing into that process. I'll take the point about Cesc not having the burden of being a saviour for Arsenal. That's something Ozil has had to cope with. But I give Cesc much due respect for being so young and rising to the occasion. No other teen from our ranks rose to the occasion like that. It's not as if Ozil is under that much pressure from the fans either. How do you think it will be if he moves on from us and goes to a bigger club? It's not as if he's stepped into something unprecedented and totally unique. It's what happens for all players that come with a huge price tag. He's at least had the luxury of seeing Sanchez, Welbeck, Cech, Xhaka, Mustafi and Perez added to the existing line up. Upgrade after upgrade. Cesc had to deal with downgrade after downgrade. Henry leaving. Cole leaving. Buy Reyes, sell Reyes. Buy Hleb, sell Hleb. You can't be serious about Ozil having to step into worse conditions. That's crazy.

[Niall_Quinn]

Which areas do you reckon those players need to be in?

Anywhere. It's the quality that counts, the step up. But ideally a legitimate replacement for Santi.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

hell no! Not even close, and he wasnt a big match player.
And yes, Sanchez is scoring more because of Ozil. THe chances he is getting now are clean as fack because he and Ozil have created a strike partnership. Alexis does not appreciate space at all and will move any and everywhere. If you have him partnering Theo or Giroud, Alexis will be on their toes. Having someone like Ozil to move defenders for him, and anticipate where Alexis will be so that he can move into the vacated space is influential in our attacking play.

I really hope Ozil does not get injured because our attacking play ALWAYS craters when he is out and our team is nowhere near as good. Ozil is a damn alien. You don't replace players like him, you completely change your system. Alexis, you can find replacements. Whether Arsenal can afford to do it is a different conversation, but he can be replaced. Ozil is probably the most unique player on the planet.


Losing track on what on earth the debate is about now, but that is just plainly wrong.

Financially replacing Sanchez would prove most difficult.

[Kano]

If the Football Leaks thing is right, it appears we've been paying Ozil £240k a week since he joined. So God knows what we'll have to pay him for the next salary if he stays. The wages in this game are fucking insane.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I think that's nonsense tbf.

[Niall_Quinn]

Probably a gross/net thing going on. These players like the tax on their wheelbarrow load being paid for them.

[Letters]

If the Football Leaks thing is right, it appears we've been paying Ozil £240k a week since he joined. So God knows what we'll have to pay him for the next salary if he stays. The wages in this game are fucking insane.

It's all Jimmy Hill's fault.

[Kano]

I think that's nonsense tbf.

How real the documents are I don't know but they are part of the millions that were apparently leaked that has put pressure on Maureen and Ronnie for their tax shenanigans.

"The documents show Ozil earns a basic Arsenal salary of 10.2million euros a year. He gets 1.8m euros for each season the Gunners qualify for the Champions League group stages plus another 1.2m euros a year as a signing-on bonus. On top of that, Arsenal pay an additional 1,476,095 euros a year to his Dusseldorf company Ozil Marketing GmbH — which owns his image rights — as part of an agreement that they would pay him a guaranteed annual salary of 8,077,000 euros net of tax. £12,529,000 a year."

Quite a bit of dosh. It makes sense because all player contracts run through an amortisation process. There are documents knocking around online but again, we have to take these guys word they are real. No reason to think they aren't really.

[Power n Glory]

Losing track on what on earth the debate is about now, but that is just plainly wrong.

Financially replacing Sanchez would prove most difficult.

100% wrong.

The cost of strikers have gone right through the roof. Higauin's transfer says it all.

[Power n Glory]

Cesc doesnt have the legs Ozil has.

The movement Ozil has really helps Alexis a lot. This season for instance, Ozil is not really playing the #10. He is and Alexis are playing as dual false 9s most of the time with Alexis and is often time furthest player forward for Arsenal in front of him on the pass charts and heat maps.

They both need each other but Ozil's play is a big reason for Alexis' form and he has sacrificed a lot of his playmaking to accommodate Alexis. (which is why he is scoring more goals now)

And on top of that, Ozil is the most unique player in world football. You dont replace him. There is no cheap alternative out there. Its literally Ozil and thats it.

Its easy to miss out what Ozil is doing because the English speakiing media inundated with Ray Wilkins types.

Yep, still stand by Cesc being the better player. Midweek games sum it up.

[Letters]

You can't base that opinion on one off games PnG - I'm sure you're not, but you can't present that as definitive proof.

[Niall_Quinn]

And I stand by the obvious observation that Cesc was introduced to and played in a much more organised team when Le Crackpot still retained some of his marbles. A younger Cesc would struggle mightily in the tippy tappy hell that has been built over the last few seasons. Then again, so would Messi. So would anyone. It really doesn't matter who was or is better. All that matters is we get rid of the idiot who is an anchor dragging on every player that wears the shirt.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And I stand by the obvious observation that Cesc was introduced to and played in a much more organised team when Le Crackpot still retained some of his marbles. A younger Cesc would struggle mightily in the tippy tappy hell that has been built over the last few seasons. Then again, so would Messi. So would anyone. It really doesn't matter who was or is better. All that matters is we get rid of the idiot who is an anchor dragging on every player that wears the shirt.

The tippy tappy hell was made to facilitate cesc and actually our style of play changed very much from the days when we won titles to become a Barcelona/Spain Lite with Fabregas as the heart of the team. Fabregas used to annoy me because there was a constant need for him to pass the ball just for the sake of it even when there wasn't a pass on, Ozil is similarly afflicted by this.

I watched both players at the Emirates and there with both a breathtaking ability to read the game and know where their team mates will be without seeing them, out of the two I prefer Ozil but that's bias on my part and could also be that Ozil when he first came here stood out as the most technically gifted in the squad.

Fabregas is a slightly different player at Chelsea and he plays in a far more efficient system, if we swapped them i think the difference between what he offers to Arsenal and what Ozil offers would be marginal at best.

[Power n Glory]

You can't base that opinion on one off games PnG - I'm sure you're not, but you can't present that as definitive proof.

You're right. I haven't based that off one game. But that one game is a snap shot. I'm not presenting it as definitive proof. It just sums up why I prefer a player like Cesc. He steps up on the big occasions more often and can turn a 7 out 10 performance into an 8 or 9 with a goal out of nowhere or a crazy pass like he did the other week for Costa. I just don’t see that from Ozil.

[Niall_Quinn]

You're right. I haven't based that off one game. But that one game is a snap shot. I'm not presenting it as definitive proof. It just sums up why I prefer a player like Cesc. He steps up on the big occasions more often and can turn a 7 out 10 performance into an 8 or 9 with a goal out of nowhere or a crazy pass like he did the other week for Costa. I just don’t see that from Ozil.

You seriously must just shut your eyes when Ozil gets the ball.

[Power n Glory]

And I stand by the obvious observation that Cesc was introduced to and played in a much more organised team when Le Crackpot still retained some of his marbles. A younger Cesc would struggle mightily in the tippy tappy hell that has been built over the last few seasons. Then again, so would Messi. So would anyone. It really doesn't matter who was or is better. All that matters is we get rid of the idiot who is an anchor dragging on every player that wears the shirt.

I think you've lost your marbles. :lol: Cesc is tippy tappy! He's the original blueprint!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think you've lost your marbles. :lol: Cesc is tippy tappy! He's the original blueprint!

Definitely

[Niall_Quinn]

I think you've lost your marbles. :lol: Cesc is tippy tappy! He's the original blueprint!

He wasn't when he first broke into the team. But Wenger seized on his abilities and set about constructing the present day nightmare, taking it to a ridiculous extreme.

[Niall_Quinn]

And the original blueprint is the horror of all horrors, Pep's Barcelona. The most boring team ever to play the game.

[Letters]

Present day nightmare! :lol:

[Goonermerree]

And I stand by the obvious observation that Cesc was introduced to and played in a much more organised team when Le Crackpot still retained some of his marbles. A younger Cesc would struggle mightily in the tippy tappy hell that has been built over the last few seasons. Then again, so would Messi. So would anyone. It really doesn't matter who was or is better. All that matters is we get rid of the idiot who is an anchor dragging on every player that wears the shirt.

Who would you want in?

[Power n Glory]

You seriously must just shut your eyes when Ozil gets the ball.


A younger Cesc would struggle mightily in the tippy tappy hell

On that statement alone, you shouldn't talk. That whole 'tippy tappy' saying comes from our poor implementation of Barca's tika tika system. We changed from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 because of Cesc.

We've had discussions about this before and you have no idea what we're doing half the time. It's 'tippy tappy' when we lose or haven't scored yet but if we carve a team open with our passes, you talk as if there has been a change in tactics. :doh:

[selassie]

Yep, still stand by Cesc being the better player. Midweek games sum it up.

I'll probably get slaughtered for this but I agree PnG.

Ozil is a great player but when the battle is on and things get a little physical he goes into hiding. Cesc wasn't ever like that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

On that statement alone, you shouldn't talk. That whole 'tippy tappy' saying comes from our poor implementation of Barca's tika tika system. We changed from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 because of Cesc.

We've had discussions about this before and you have no idea what we're doing half the time. It's 'tippy tappy' when we lose or haven't scored yet but if we carve a team open with our passes, you talk as if there has been a change in tactics. :doh:

Again i agree (and made the point about half hour ago). I think the tika takka system is a kind of death by a thousand cuts and it can be frustrating to watch. I do think however that actually when we do score or look good more often than not it's more a mixture of pace and direct passing (the way for instance we took west ham and basel apart on the counter attack). It's not to say short passing movements don't work for us as well (the best example i can think of is the second goal against chelsea which was pure tikka takka). But often when we are pressed we regress to short sideways passing and keep ball which has very little in the way of penetration....employing pace on the wings has given us a bit more dimension though.

[Goonermerree]

We were walking around Everton's box a lot on Tuesday, then sideways passing. I just gives the opposition confidence, it puts them in their comfort zone and they can defend that all day long. A few counters with attempts n goal and they are up for it. Everton were all over the place for the first 15 mins or so and we were playing with pace and more direct passing. I think we send ourselves to sleep sometimes and before we know it, we're chasing the game.

[Letters]

We were walking around Everton's box a lot on Tuesday, then sideways passing. I just gives the opposition confidence, it puts them in their comfort zone and they can defend that all day long. A few counters with attempts n goal and they are up for it. Everton were all over the place for the first 15 mins or so and we were playing with pace and more direct passing. I think we send ourselves to sleep sometimes and before we know it, we're chasing the game.

Only Liverpool have scored more than us though and we've only lost twice. We're not doing that much wrong.

[Goonermerree]

Only Liverpool have scored more than us though and we've only lost twice. We're not doing that much wrong.

Maybe if we played with a bit more pace, we could have beaten Everton, then we would be second and only 3 points behind Chelsea. It's important to keep on their tails. I don't think we'll win the league, but it would be nice to give a good challenge.

[Letters]

I don't think we'll win it either and the Everton result was a setback but those will happen. They happen in any season. The question remains, for me, whether we will react.
A win at City will be a perfect response, not holding my breath but I live in hope!

[Power n Glory]

Again i agree (and made the point about half hour ago). I think the tika takka system is a kind of death by a thousand cuts and it can be frustrating to watch. I do think however that actually when we do score or look good more often than not it's more a mixture of pace and direct passing (the way for instance we took west ham and basel apart on the counter attack). It's not to say short passing movements don't work for us as well (the best example i can think of is the second goal against chelsea which was pure tikka takka). But often when we are pressed we regress to short sideways passing and keep ball which has very little in the way of penetration....employing pace on the wings has given us a bit more dimension though.

I just caught that. We’re on the same page. The system we play now comes back to the days we had Cesc. It’s beautiful to watch when you’re facing another attacking team but when teams park the bus and you’ve got players that just want to play it safe, it gets boring and easy to defend against.

[Letters]

I just caught that. We’re on the same page. The system we play now comes back to the days we had Cesc. It’s beautiful to watch when you’re facing another attacking team but when teams park the bus and you’ve got players that just want to play it safe, it gets boring and easy to defend against.

I think this is why our away results are often as good if not better than our home ones. The home teams are obligated to have a go and that plans int our hands. Most teams will come to the Emirates hoping for a point and that can frustrate us.

[Marc Overmars]

Maybe if we played with a bit more pace, we could have beaten Everton, then we would be second and only 3 points behind Chelsea. It's important to keep on their tails. I don't think we'll win the league, but it would be nice to give a good challenge.

That's all I want to see, a proper challenge of substance and if we miss out then so be it. We'll see what happens in the spring but I doubt we have the consistency to get close enough to 1st to pounce on any slip ups. We're too flakey.

[Power n Glory]

I'll probably get slaughtered for this but I agree PnG.

Ozil is a great player but when the battle is on and things get a little physical he goes into hiding. Cesc wasn't ever like that.


My man! :cheers: You shouldn't get slaughtered.

We could have won that game against Everton too. Ozil misses a sitter but I hear nothing from NQ and others. It goes back to Wenger not stepping up his game. It's fine margins. The players have to step their game up also. I have no doubt, as Blink said, if it were Theo or Iwobi, add Ox as well, they'd have been marked out for far more criticism.

[Power n Glory]

I think this is why our away results are often as good if not better than our home ones. The home teams are obligated to have a go and that plans int our hands. Most teams will come to the Emirates hoping for a point and that can frustrate us.

You’re right. I remember there was a time when we’d all prefer the big games because we knew teams would attack us and space behind would be left. But I also think the key to us playing well is passing quickly and staying mobile. We also need more players to take risks and actually dribble through players to move a marker. It's partly why I rate Sanchez so much and glad he's playing as striker. The hat trick he scored against West Ham is an example. The way he took each goal and fought to make that extra space to get his shot off. We've missed that. We need some others to start doing the same.

Ozil has the ability to jink and move past players in a similar way so it pisses me off when we're struggling for a goal and I see him play a first time pass back to someone else and then just jog off. Show some initiative and take more responsibility. If he loses the ball in that moment or it doesn't work, fine. But put yourself out there and don't hide. I remember Nasri would do something similar and it would piss me off because he was also good with the ball at his feet. Not everyone has that sort of technique so I don't expect it from all but those that do should try everything in their tool box when we're looking desperate.

[Niall_Quinn]

On that statement alone, you shouldn't talk. That whole 'tippy tappy' saying comes from our poor implementation of Barca's tika tika system. We changed from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 because of Cesc.

We've had discussions about this before and you have no idea what we're doing half the time. It's 'tippy tappy' when we lose or haven't scored yet but if we carve a team open with our passes, you talk as if there has been a change in tactics. :doh:

Let's roll this back to where it all begins - your constant paddling to get out of your anti-Ozil stance that you thought had legs until he picked up his game and became invaluable to the team. But you can't admit that so you are going to defend this, "Do we need him, luxury player", bullshit by all means possible. The latest pass is Cesc. Cesc was a better player. Well no he wasn't. Not in a million years. No in terms of technical ability. Not in terms of vision. Not in terms of intelligence. Cesc was better at putting it about and that's about all. Cesc was a more industrial player, but Ozil doesn't need to be because his brain works a lot better. Both good players of course, no argument there. But it's not even a matter of opinion who is the superior player. It's just a matter of watching Ozil play and the answer is there. You can't see through your bias that has developed from what was probably innocent frustration when Ozil was perceived (because it wasn't true) of not delivering -those were the silly "stealing a living" comments from a jealous media. I guess you fell for that.

As for tippy tappy. That wasn't built all about Cesc. He was integral to it, but our style, tactics, transfer policy all changed as Wenger became more out of touch with the leage he was playing in and his arrogance increased as he sought his next big revolution in England, Barca-lite. It never arrived of course because in the PL it's fine to kick opponents off the ball. Wenger is blind to this for whatever reason. But to say it was all about Cesc. Rubbish. It was all about Wenger. And if you brought Cesc back into the mire we are swimming in now he'd be just as fucked as the rest of them, watching that static front line, watching the open guy running towards him rather than running into space, having to try to make something from a whole bag of negatives, all done at a snail's pace. Ozil and Alexis are all that stand between us and pure nothingness. You swap either of these two for Cesc and you are 100% fucked. You'd probably do it just to sign off on your Ozil agenda, but you'd see the results soon enough and it wouldn't be pretty.

[Niall_Quinn]

Who would you want in?

Wouldn't really matter. There's a catalogue of potential managers out there who would do the job. Sack them if they are no good. The point of getting rid of Wenger is to end the seemingly endless nothingness, to bring something, anything, to shake things up and remind everyone that the goal of the game is not to be rich, above average also-rans.

[Power n Glory]

Let's roll this back to where it all begins - your constant paddling to get out of your anti-Ozil stance that you thought had legs until he picked up his game and became invaluable to the team. But you can't admit that so you are going to defend this, "Do we need him, luxury player", bullshit by all means possible. The latest pass is Cesc. Cesc was a better player. Well no he wasn't. Not in a million years. No in terms of technical ability. Not in terms of vision. Not in terms of intelligence. Cesc was better at putting it about and that's about all. Cesc was a more industrial player, but Ozil doesn't need to be because his brain works a lot better. Both good players of course, no argument there. But it's not even a matter of opinion who is the superior player. It's just a matter of watching Ozil play and the answer is there. You can't see through your bias that has developed from what was probably innocent frustration when Ozil was perceived (because it wasn't true) of not delivering -those were the silly "stealing a living" comments from a jealous media. I guess you fell for that.

As for tippy tappy. That wasn't built all about Cesc. He was integral to it, but our style, tactics, transfer policy all changed as Wenger became more out of touch with the leage he was playing in and his arrogance increased as he sought his next big revolution in England, Barca-lite. It never arrived of course because in the PL it's fine to kick opponents off the ball. Wenger is blind to this for whatever reason. But to say it was all about Cesc. Rubbish. It was all about Wenger. And if you brought Cesc back into the mire we are swimming in now he'd be just as fucked as the rest of them, watching that static front line, watching the open guy running towards him rather than running into space, having to try to make something from a whole bag of negatives, all done at a snail's pace. Ozil and Alexis are all that stand between us and pure nothingness. You swap either of these two for Cesc and you are 100% fucked. You'd probably do it just to sign off on your Ozil agenda, but you'd see the results soon enough and it wouldn't be pretty.

You can keep trying to pick apart my agenda by painting it as an 'anti Ozil' stance but we'd have a much better conversation if you focused on football or read up on what's going on. This will go nowhere fast. When you can't even acknowledged that Cesc played in a much shitter team...or even that we changed from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 to play to his strengths, I don't think it's worth continuing.

[Niall_Quinn]

You can keep trying to pick apart my agenda by painting it as an 'anti Ozil' stance but we'd have a much better conversation if you focused on football or read up on what's going on. This will go nowhere fast. When you can't even acknowledged that Cesc played in a much shitter team...or even that we changed from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 to play to his strengths, I don't think it's worth continuing.

I can understand why you don't want to continue. You were the one who was laughed out of the room with your whole, "luxury player", thing. This isn't about who the best player is, it's just another of your digs at Ozil. As is the bullshit about him not taking enough heat for missing chances in the last game. Look in the match thread, the heat was delivered in real time. The only person not judging Ozil evenly is yourself. And I won't be acknowledging that Cesc played in a shitter team anytime soon, because it's not the case. You are focusing on the individuals as the sole criteria for what makes a decent team. There's a lot more to it than that. The type of football we play now is dire and has been declining steadily with the only discernible uptick in years coming from the "luxury" player Ozil and the guy he's struck up a great relationship with on the pitch, Alexis. These are quality players, the real deal. So you don't like Ozil, fine. We get it. Your opinion has no bearing on reality but you are entitled to have it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

the issue is more about the style of football for me, and without question the tippety tappety style of football was introduced by Wenger to facilitate Fabregas to begin with and has rather taken on a life of it's own since his departure.

When Fabregas got into the first team there is no doubt that the players around him were superior, but frankly at the same time he was often playing with dross like Denilson or an out of form Diaby or Alex Song who was often inconsistent.

I also think Fabregas went missing just as frequently in the big games, but the issue was like with Ozil and Sanchez is the emphasis placed on them to singularly perform well in these games and went the players around them are not performing it's going to have a drain on their own performance.

I personally don't see a great deal of difference between the two players, I personally prefer watching Ozil although I equally enjoyed watching Fabregas at his best.

But there is no doubt that building a team around Fabregas was the focal point for us adopting the tikka takka approach in the first place.

[Power n Glory]

I can understand why you don't want to continue. You were the one who was laughed out of the room with your whole, "luxury player", thing. This isn't about who the best player is, it's just another of your digs at Ozil. As is the bullshit about him not taking enough heat for missing chances in the last game. Look in the match thread, the heat was delivered in real time. The only person not judging Ozil evenly is yourself. And I won't be acknowledging that Cesc played in a shitter team anytime soon, because it's not the case. You are focusing on the individuals as the sole criteria for what makes a decent team. There's a lot more to it than that. The type of football we play now is dire and has been declining steadily with the only discernible uptick in years coming from the "luxury" player Ozil and the guy he's struck up a great relationship with on the pitch, Alexis. These are quality players, the real deal. So you don't like Ozil, fine. We get it. Your opinion has no bearing on reality but you are entitled to have it.

I'll continue with someone that knows what they're talking about at least. The threads been going on long enough and I haven't shied away from it. It was an unpopular opinion but as things progress, people start to catch on. It’s people deflecting attention away from Ozil that annoys me. At first, scoring goals weren’t part of a role of an attacking midfielder and we’d get a lot more out of him with a better striker….etc. Has there been a massive improvement from Ozil since Giroud has gone out of the team?

[Goonermerree]

Wouldn't really matter. There's a catalogue of potential managers out there who would do the job. Sack them if they are no good. The point of getting rid of Wenger is to end the seemingly endless nothingness, to bring something, anything, to shake things up and remind everyone that the goal of the game is not to be rich, above average also-rans.

Big Sam Arghhh. At least he'd teach the players how to counter with impunity. Punch that is...

We may end up on a merry-go-round of managers.

[Niall_Quinn]

the issue is more about the style of football for me, and without question the tippety tappety style of football was introduced by Wenger to facilitate Fabregas to begin with and has rather taken on a life of it's own since his departure.

When Fabregas got into the first team there is no doubt that the players around him were superior, but frankly at the same time he was often playing with dross like Denilson or an out of form Diaby or Alex Song who was often inconsistent.

I also think Fabregas went missing just as frequently in the big games, but the issue was like with Ozil and Sanchez is the emphasis placed on them to singularly perform well in these games and went the players around them are not performing it's going to have a drain on their own performance.

I personally don't see a great deal of difference between the two players, I personally prefer watching Ozil although I equally enjoyed watching Fabregas at his best.

But there is no doubt that building a team around Fabregas was the focal point for us adopting the tikka takka approach in the first place.

Fabregas was the tool that allowed Wenger to go down that route. But Wenger was going there anyway, by one means or another. Fabregas is gone. Wenger is as committed as ever to this non-football. He thought he was revolutionising the game again. But all he was doing was throwing away a formula that worked for us and was so perfectly suited to the league we play in. It's the old cliche, but power, pace, directness, our still unrivalled ability to terrorise an opponent on their own corners and be up their end slotting the ball in the next 15 seconds later. Pass, move, pass, move, pass, move, goal. The very opposite of what we play now, except on those rare occasions where we do inject a bit of pace, do become a bit more direct. When we do this we are transformed and these are what we call our decent performances and, no surprise, they coincide with our decent results. I think yes, for sure, having Fabregas was a big encouragement. But not having him wouldn't have prevented Wenger going off on this idiotic path. He's all but destroyed his legacy in the process. And he absolutely will not admit he's been wrong and is still wrong.

[Power n Glory]

If you'd asked me who i said was more pivotal earlier in the year i'd have said Ozil, but tuesday night shows how pivotal that Sanchez is to our attacking play he has his markers chasing shadows and frees up so much space for those around him that he becomes invaluable to us.

Ozil's passing and vision is second to none in my view, but this is can be rather limited against sides who will spend the entire game doing all they can to close us down and deny us space. Ozil's ability to find players and assists are exceptional, but he is not providing many assists currently. I'd rather lose neither of them i think they perform together brilliantly and i think add a player like Lucas Perez into the mix we have an attack which bamboozles defences with it's trickery.

This is where we agree on Ozil, Herb. That's your response to Fakeyank some weeks back.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Ozil's passing and vision is second to none, but it's up there.

[Niall_Quinn]

Big Sam Arghhh. At least he'd teach the players how to counter with impunity. Punch that is...

We may end up on a merry-go-round of managers.

Does it matter? Are we that desperate to keep on being second best, third best, fourth best and never really getting close to the big prizes. Are we so keen to keep on seeing these lethargic performances, to keep falling at the vital hurdles? So what if we finished fifth, sixth, seventh? What's the difference except cash? And there's really not much difference in the cash now either, you get a fortune for being relegated. But you have to take a risk to make some progress because there's no progress possible under Wenger.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'll continue with someone that knows what they're talking about at least. The threads been going on long enough and I haven't shied away from it. It was an unpopular opinion but as things progress, people start to catch on. It’s people deflecting attention away from Ozil that annoys me. At first, scoring goals weren’t part of a role of an attacking midfielder and we’d get a lot more out of him with a better striker….etc. Has there been a massive improvement from Ozil since Giroud has gone out of the team?

Yes, I forgot you were so knowledgable. You can tell from your expert analysis of Ozil. No doubt, it's an unpopular opinion but it's also a ridiculous one. We don't just need Ozil for what he brings on the pitch, we need him for the prestige of the club. If we are supposed to be part of this elite group then we need players of this quality to back up such a claim. Because we sure as hell aren't winning the trophies that warrant our inclusion in that bracket. And just who is "catching on" to this anti-Ozil agenda? Nobody I can see. You get fans grumbling about him after a loss and then worshipping him after a win, that's normal. But that's hardly the same thing as concluding we don't need him at all. And yes, we've been getting more out of him since we've installed a better (I'd say proper) striker up front. There's a very promising relationship developing with Alexis and these two are a cut above anything else we have out there. That's why I said we need to add quality this January. The more we add the more we'll get from Ozil and Alexis.

[Power n Glory]

Yes, I forgot you were so knowledgable. You can tell from your expert analysis of Ozil. No doubt, it's an unpopular opinion but it's also a ridiculous one. We don't just need Ozil for what he brings on the pitch, we need him for the prestige of the club. If we are supposed to be part of this elite group then we need players of this quality to back up such a claim. Because we sure as hell aren't winning the trophies that warrant our inclusion in that bracket. And just who is "catching on" to this anti-Ozil agenda? Nobody I can see. You get fans grumbling about him after a loss and then worshipping him after a win, that's normal. But that's hardly the same thing as concluding we don't need him at all. And yes, we've been getting more out of him since we've installed a better (I'd say proper) striker up front. There's a very promising relationship developing with Alexis and these two are a cut above anything else we have out there. That's why I said we need to add quality this January. The more we add the more we'll get from Ozil and Alexis.

You only have to go on Twitter. Been seeing it on the blogs. Even Arsenal Fan TV. :lol:

Caught this one and he has a point.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPE9SGLg89A

[Power n Glory]

http://le-grove.co.uk/2016/12/08/mesut-ozil-negotiations-starting-at-i-want-to-leave-levels-of-banter/#more-22633


So the newspapers are dropping Ozil numbers like the more stupid the number, the more likely people are to click the article?

No. Damn. Way.

Mesut Ozil is apparently chasing e450,000 per week to stay at Arsenal. Now, from where I’m looking, when you’re asking a club like Arsenal for that sort of money, you’re basically saying you’d like to go elsewhere. It’s like your partner asking what you’d like for breakfast and you saying a better attitude and their best friend for one night only.

I have my doubts that’s what he’s asking for, it’s not even an aggressive starting point for negotiations. Bayern wouldn’t pay that for him and outside that, I’m struggling to see who’d take him. Would Madrid pay him that? I’m pretty sure that Gareth Bale isn’t anywhere near that and he’s kind of the new best player in the world elect. Outside those two, who could afford it or would want to?

I know it’s super untrendy to say, but I love Ozil, I’m just not sure he’s quite the consistent world beater he could be. He has it all, bar the edge… do you know what I mean? Someone rightly pointed out in the comments the other day that if he does as much running as Sanchez, he’s not doing it right, because his impact isn’t anywhere near what the Chilean offers.

Sure, he pulls people out of position, passes like a demon and posesses voodoo like magic, but look… Carlo A preferred Di Maria to Ozil because he had a character more suited to Madrid.

“It’s true, that maybe Di Maria has less quality than Özil but on a profile of dynamism, character and help to the team I preferred Di Maria.”

Carlo is one of the greats of management. Up there with the best. I totally get what he’s saying there. It’s not like he’s comparing Thierry Henry to Ray Parlour there, he’s comparing two great players and saying he prefers one because of character traits. So I’m not saying I don’t love Ozil, I’m not saying he doesn’t wow me, I’m just saying I’d like to feel his presence more often and I’d like not to have to search for it in the big games.

Until he offers that up, he’s not in the £384,000 p/w category.

Now Sanchez. Well, if he can maintain this streak, he’s pushing himself right up there with the best. So he might be worth pushing the boat out for.

I just wonder how the coach will deal with Theo when he comes knocking for the same.

NO I DON’T, JUST KIDDING.

Also, as per usual, as these contract talks rage on and if Ozil doesn't sign a new deal, I'm sure opinions will change. That shouldn't be the case but that's how it goes.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Hmmm.....Why is he building an argument on a premise he doesn't really think is likely to be true? And okay Ancelotti preferred Di Maria at a time.....so what?....

[Power n Glory]

Hmmm.....Why is he building an argument on a premise he doesn't really think is likely to be true? And okay Ancelotti preferred Di Maria at a time.....so what?....

It's definitely half hearted from Le Grove but as said, opinions will sway if these contract talks go the wrong way. People are really pussy footing around this one. Not sure what he's getting at with the Ancelotti and Di Maria thing, I'm guessing he's trying to back up the lack of 'edge' point he made earlier. But this is what I find funny.


I know it’s super untrendy to say, but I love Ozil, I’m just not sure he’s quite the consistent world beater he could be.

Is it sacrilege to say anything negative about Ozil's performances? 'Untrendy'? Why pussyfoot around the topic if you feel he's not a consistent world beater? Has he just been nodding along with popular opinion among Arsenal fans? I'm sure there are some fans out there that really appreciate and study his game but I'm pretty sure there are a lot of fans that are just as lost as if being taken around some pretentious art gallery tour. I don't believe half the people that talk so highly of Ozil really notice the subtle qualities of his game and if they did they wouldn't spout half the rubbish said about the other players here. That's probably what annoys me the most.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I love Ozil and often can't even see it when he's supposedly been terrible but his part in Everton's winner was probably the most apathetic and negligent I've seen him.

He looked at his man (Williams), then looked at the ball coming in over his head whilst edging away from the impending danger bowing his head. He looked like some old geriatric trying to find his way out of The crowds of Noting Hill carnival.

He then had the temerity to throw his hands up in the air after they scored and didn't applaud the away fans I hear. WTF!!!?????

When Theo jumped over Younes Kaboul last season, our fans crucified him for it.

[Power n Glory]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/dec/19/mesut-ozil-arsene-wenger-arsenal


There was an interesting moment at the end of Arsenal’s defeat at Manchester City on Sunday, a match of shifting tides, foggy passages, moments of extreme skill and one decisive tactical switch by Pep Guardiola. Deep into stoppage time, as Petr Cech and the nearest team‑mate dithered over a free-kick by the halfway line Arsène Wenger could be seen leaping up and urging them to get the ball forward, waggling his arms about in that familiar, slightly alarming angry‑pterodactyl style.

Eventually the ball did go forward, just as the final whistle was blown. Wenger stormed back from the touchline, visibly frustrated, turning his back on the yellow shirts closest to him. It felt significant, intentionally or not, that the other player with Cech at the end was Mesut Özil.

The German remains Wenger’s pet creative genius, a player in whom he has invested huge amounts of patience and reputational points, but Özil was once again an absence at the Etihad Stadium. Aged 28 and now foraging after a bumper new contract, Arsenal’s record signing is surely treading close to the point where even a fond and indulgent manager may start to feel that a beguiling, at times frustrating three years is reaching a point of crisis.

Yes: it’s that Özil conversation. Bring it on. Let’s do this here and now. Although hopefully without the associated mulch of cliché and received ideas, the identity politics of English football that seems to attach itself to any discussion of a genuinely interesting, genuinely alluring footballer.

It is surely obvious by now that nobody seriously expects Özil to “drive” a game on like some elfin Roy Keane or Bryan Robson reimagined as Victorian garden sprite. To criticise Özil for his lack of bite in the tackle, his absence of biceps, the failure to wear a white conical bandage around his head is simply to miss the best of him.

Against this there is a counter‑orthodoxy that suggests criticising Özil is to declare yourself unworthy of his minutely calibrated artisanal brilliance, eyes boggling as he gazes into the shadow world – the ghost passes, the invisible angles – like some frail alien princeling wheeled out to take us beyond our human plane into the footballing nether.

The fact remains he is a lovely footballer, and a committed one too who runs a great deal more than some seem to think (10km more than any other Arsenal midfielder in the Champions League this season). His worth does not lie simply in assists and goals scored. Özil works the fringes, finds passes that make the passes, manages Arsenal’s transitions from defence and generally acts as a high-grade lubricant.

It is, though, still possible to put a measuring stick on all this, just as pretty soon Wenger himself will have to make a significant call on a player who has been a genuine treat even for the Premier League neutral. Özil, or rather the industrial-Özil complex around him, are currently forcing this. There is talk of £290,000-a-week salary demands in any new Arsenal deal, more than double his current contract. It would be a huge pay rise, elevating Özil to genuine A-list status. Two things occur instantly.

Firstly, there is little in Özil’s recent club football that suggests he deserves it. And secondly, it is hard not to conclude such game-changing money would be better spent elsewhere. Arsenal could, for example, try to sign Riyad Mahrez, who is younger and more obviously effective and may just be gettable. Özil is fun, brilliant, maddening at times. But judged by any serious scale of actual impact on this, the earthly realm – where goals and wins and trophies really do exist – there is nothing to justify such extreme demands.

Three seasons and two FA Cup winner’s medals into his Arsenal career Özil isn’t showing any obvious signs of other gears, of a level still to come. He faded with the rest last season as the best chance in a decade to win the league title disappeared, and has been present through the galling Champions League defeats of the last few years.

Özil was supposed to define the endgame of the late Wenger years. And so he has, an emblem of room-temperature stasis, a certain debilitating cosiness. Wenger has been criticised since the defeat at the Etihad for failing to react in real-time, to shift his tactics to mirror Pep Guardiola’s successful rejig into a system with two No10s and David Silva sniping behind. There is no shame in being out-tacticed now and then. But when all this was going on where was Wenger’s senior player, Arsenal’s only World Cup winner on the pitch?

Arsenal fans have become accustomed to shrugging a little at this point and saying, well, it just wasn’t Özil’s game, treating him with the special privileges reserved for some impossibly complex high-spec part in an over-engineered luxury car: the fine-tooth alternator-flange that makes the multi-jet trans-drive work, but which can quite easily be thrown by too much fluff in the rear transponders or, you know, a leaf on the windscreen.

But this isn’t really enough. When your good moments are as good as Özil’s it is easy to overlook the omissions. If we really are going to start talking Messi-level wages there are still quite a few things Özil doesn’t do. Such as kicking the ball with his right foot, always a baffling omission in a top footballer. His finishing can be ropey. In his entire Arsenal career Özil has one goal from outside the box. Being able to shoot seems the least you’d expect for £15m a year. Last season Özil won three headers in the Premier League. So far this time he’s made 11 tackles. Nobody hires Mesut Özil to do either of these things. But there is a kind of entry-level expectation.

Even more so as the game has changed recently. Kevin De Bruyne is an obvious point of comparison, another high-grade northern European No10, but a player who is relentlessly involved even on his off-days. Against Arsenal De Bruyne looked a little muddled in the first half. He kept on running and harrying. He ended up producing the pass of the game to help Raheem Sterling score the winner. The previous weekend against Manchester City Mahrez had even fewer touches than Özil but still decided the match. In the high-speed, high-turnover press of the current Premier League it’s not enough to have off and on games. The day is always there to be seized.

Similarly Arsenal’s switch to playing more without the ball hasn’t brought the best from Özil. Suddenly you notice how little he contributes out of possession, an ambling ghost while those around him press and fill. The days of possession football, where it is enough simply to link and prompt and feed endless high-grade passes the way of some elite centre-forward, are largely gone.

There have of course been some real highs, and hopefully there will be more. Özil was excellent in the 3-0 defeat of Chelsea in the autumn, a result that seems now to have catapulted one of those teams towards a league title. Although not perhaps the one you might have expected. He was there for both of the wins against the current champions last season. But on too many other occasions, and once again on Sunday, Arsenal have struggled against better opponents, not helped by the additional burden of ferrying Özil about the pitch in his imperial litter, waiting for him to do stuff.

Already any serious Arsenal title challenge looks to have faded. In each of the past three seasons opponents energised by some spurting, sparking piece of managerial chemistry have sprinted away around this time of year while Arsenal have still been making plans. Wenger was genuinely upset at the end of Sunday’s defeat, an encouraging sign in itself. At the very least Arsenal’s season might benefit from a little more in the way of tension between a sympathetic manager and a star player who, in every sense, too often seems to leave no shadow.

One of the better pieces out there. Sums up some of what I've been trying to say for a while.

[AFC Leveller]

Arshavin for Arsenal:

8709 minutes 31 goals 46 assists

Mesut Özil for Arsenal:

11650 minutes 29 goals 49 assists

(Via Mirror)

[Power n Glory]

Seen this floating around Twitter. Arshavin used to get slaughtered.

[GP]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/who-scored-blog/2016/dec/21/mesut-ozil-arsenal-defence-alexis-sanchez-arsene-wenger?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/who-scored-blog/2016/dec/21/mesut-ozil-arsenal-defence-alexis-sanchez-arsene-wenger?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

What else do you have apart from facts?

Thought so :coffee:

[GP]

We've had enough of experts.

[Letters]

Put the stats on the side of a bus, otherwise I'm not listening :sulk:
Busses don't lie, that's just a scientific fact.

[Power n Glory]

Are those the stats from the Man City game? ......I thought not. The fact that we can find stats to show how much tackles he wins and how much ground he covers just furthers the argument that he went missing against Man City and during a massive game when under pressure and the game was calling for us to win the ball back.

But as said, I'm not too fussed about Ozil's lack of tackles and the perception that he's lazy. I was used to seeing Henry strolling with hands on hips. But you can get away with that if you're capable of producing a moment of magic and influencing our attack when backed to a wall. It's more interesting that the same people that would slaughter Arshavin are digging out stats for Ozil without a word of criticism about his performance.

Either way, the opinions don't matter too much. It's done now and the manager has a decision on his hands. If Ozil is struggling because of fatigue, he needs to be rested, if not fatigue and just playing poorly, he needs to be spoken to because I don't know how the manager can witness that and not act on it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Some legacy media sources are saying there's no decision to be made because Wenger is determined to stick to his wage policy come what may. Reus is supposedly the emergency replacement for Ozil AND Alexis. Meanwhile the rumours continue that the club is waiting to pick a good moment to announce a new 2 year deal for Wenger.

[Marc Overmars]

Meanwhile the rumours continue that the club is waiting to pick a good moment to announce a new 2 year deal for Wenger.

They'll be waiting a while.

[mastermind84]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/who-scored-blog/2016/dec/21/mesut-ozil-arsenal-defence-alexis-sanchez-arsene-wenger?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

you think anyone actually cares about facts? foh!

[Power n Glory]

You tell em.

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3760&page=5&p=532194#post532194


Alexis at center forward just can't happen. He is only good on the right and honestly you can find good right sided attackers for less than him. Not sure what the solution is for him because he is an idiot instinctive footballer

Facts!

[mastermind84]

I said it

I also was the one person advocating him at CF. advocated for it last season and over the summer provided he learned the position more.

You won't quote that because I was right about him playing there and he has gotten better since that match (which was the 0-0 versus Leicester)

What does that have to do with a thread about Özil? Remember when I said Özil is our most influential player? His form has dipped and the team has dipped, you gonna quote that? especially since this thread is about Özil "do we need him" which is being proven incorrect with the last few months of form?

[GP]

http://arseblog.com/2016/12/ozils-bad-week-arsenal-need/

[Power n Glory]

I said it

I also was the one person advocating him at CF. advocated for it last season and over the summer provided he learned the position more.

You won't quote that because I was right about him playing there and he has gotten better since that match (which was the 0-0 versus Leicester)

What does that have to do with a thread about Özil? Remember when I said Özil is our most influential player? His form has dipped and the team has dipped, you gonna quote that? especially since this thread is about Özil "do we need him" which is being proven incorrect with the last few months of form?

:lol: Stop lying. You weren't. I was saying in the below thread I've never understood why Sanchez was never given a run up front when replying to AFC Leveller when he said Sanchez should be played through the middle.

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3538&page=10&p=503923#post503923

Here was your response.


It's Sanchez's fault

He a semi thick footballer.


He could be dynamic on the left, right, or at center forward if he stayed away from the build up and stopped chasing the ball. It's why Barcelona got rid of him, imo.

That goal is another example of that but Sanchez is compelled to always run to the ball instead of just staying on the shoulder of the last defender and waiting for the ball.

If you want to get on Wenger, get on him for not instructing that of him.


Wenger tried him at CF last season in 2 or 3 matches in the autumn and he couldn't stop dropping deep and messing up in the build up.

You weren't the one advocate and the thing you've said he shouldn't be doing and can't do (create) is what's helping the players around him now. Over the summer, you went further and said he can't play as striker.

You're not even the first to say Sanchez should play up front. It's a conversation that goes as far back as when IBK used to post on here. See below. It goes even further back because I recall some other posters mentioning it way back when discussing our striker options when Giroud was injured and we signed Welbeck.

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3417

I made the below comment.


If he had doubts about Walcott then he should have at least given Sanchez more of a shot there.


You were involved in that thread and said nothing about Sanchez being able to play up front. It's not even an original point because when we first bought Sanchez, Wenger said he could play up front and had him playing there for a short stint. As said before, I've never understood why he wasn't given much game time up front when first arriving. He had a slow start but it's not million miles away from the slow start he's had playing up front this season.

In previous conversations about what sort of striker we need, you kept emphasizing having someone strong enough to hold the ball up. I've kept saying we don't need that. Theo's game against Utd was an example and how Sanchez is playing now is further evidence. Sanchez dropping deep presents a problem for Ozil but it hasn't stopped the creativity. Theo is scoring goals, Ozil is scoring and even Ox is having his best season goal wise. Space opens up when we have a striker that's not so static.

I'm now seeing discussions on what sort of striker works with Ozil and some articles suggesting to even go back to Giroud. Why would we do that? With Sanchez being goal scorer and taking over the chance creation and assist duties from Ozil, isn't this thread and discussion still relevant? Ozil will have to adapt to the circumstances. He's not the most influential player. From midfield, it's still Santi Cazorla. You've also been wrong about Xhaka but that's another topic. So if Ozil isn't the main guy in the final third anymore or the main guy helping us get the ball from the defence into the final third...is he that big an influence on how we play?

[Niall_Quinn]

The real problem is we spent 17mill (or was it 13mill) on Perez. Should have been 60million on a world class striker to supplement the likes of Ozil and Alexis. And we should have spent another 50mill adding top tier quality to the central midfield. And another 50mill bringing in a wide man who can take on defenders and open a game up. Anyone who thinks we don't have the money to do that should consider we spent 90mill on a bag of average tools. Mustafi is okay, but 33mill? Xhaka can be great but the signs aren't great so far, 34mill? That's just another 30mill shy of the number we could have spent on two players who are the next level up. And then could Arsenal stretch to another 60mill for the striker? Most certainly they'll tell you no, but that's only because of this sustainable nonsense. The eco-friendly club in a football world of prolific polluters - what's the point, beyond setting up a nice collateral vehicle for cowboy Stan? Did you know if you just add one letter to his name it becomes Satan?

Anyway, the reason we aren't competing with clubs like Marketing and Barca and Bayern is not because of Ozil, it's because we don't have enough Ozils. Too much penny-pinching over the years, too little ambition, a readiness to settle for second best and pretend it's some sort of moral triumph. If we have players getting a little lazy and relaxed in such a comfortable environment then I'm not surprised really. Arsenal has become the club you visit for a break between the rigours of real competition. A deckchair and sunglasses club where the more you relax the more people named Ty and Chris Wenger will cheer you. That could be one of the key reasons Alexis is looking to get away. Maybe he's itching to get back to the office after a nice break.

[Goonermerree]

The real problem is we spent 17mill (or was it 13mill) on Perez. Should have been 60million on a world class striker to supplement the likes of Ozil and Alexis. And we should have spent another 50mill adding top tier quality to the central midfield. And another 50mill bringing in a wide man who can take on defenders and open a game up. Anyone who thinks we don't have the money to do that should consider we spent 90mill on a bag of average tools. Mustafi is okay, but 33mill? Xhaka can be great but the signs aren't great so far, 34mill? That's just another 30mill shy of the number we could have spent on two players who are the next level up. And then could Arsenal stretch to another 60mill for the striker? Most certainly they'll tell you no, but that's only because of this sustainable nonsense. The eco-friendly club in a football world of prolific polluters - what's the point, beyond setting up a nice collateral vehicle for cowboy Stan? Did you know if you just add one letter to his name it becomes Satan?

Anyway, the reason we aren't competing with clubs like Marketing and Barca and Bayern is not because of Ozil, it's because we don't have enough Ozils. Too much penny-pinching over the years, too little ambition, a readiness to settle for second best and pretend it's some sort of moral triumph. If we have players getting a little lazy and relaxed in such a comfortable environment then I'm not surprised really. Arsenal has become the club you visit for a break between the rigours of real competition. A deckchair and sunglasses club where the more you relax the more people named Ty and Chris Wenger will cheer you. That could be one of the key reasons Alexis is looking to get away. Maybe he's itching to get back to the office after a nice break.

I wouldn't mind so much if we played him properly once in a while to see what he can do! I do agree about the other, although the money is ridiculous, it's the price a top club has to pay to get the top players. Trouble is, Wenger doesn't agree with overpaying for players, but he just buys a lot for his money instead of quality and he has to keep buying. It would be cheaper to get the quality in the first place.

[Power n Glory]

It doesn't make sense to complain about how much we've spent on players like Perez, Xhaka and Mustafi but at the same time call for the manager to drop £60m on a striker and then another £50m each on a midfielder and wide player. We'd just be shoveling a bigger pile of shit onto the field. He's mismanaged a small budget and he's gone further to mismanage an even bigger budget. We can't trust to spend record sums.

It's taken him an age that a player like Sanchez opens things up for other attackers in the final third and with that part of the jig saw solved, we now have a problem with the midfield again. We'll hop scotch to one problem after the other with Wenger. Forget giving him more money.

[fakeyank]

The real problem is we spent 17mill (or was it 13mill) on Perez. Should have been 60million on a world class striker to supplement the likes of Ozil and Alexis.

I am not sure how this is supposed to work. Alexis is more than a 60 million quid striker at the moment. Assuming we continue to play with one man upfront then where would you have played this 60 million pound striker? I have no issues with Perez and would love him to get a run of games. What I'd like instead (and I have been saying this for many years now) is for us to revert back to the 4-4-2 formation for some our homes games and against lower table sides. That'll give the likes of both Sanchez/Giroud, Giroud/Perez or Sanchez/Perez a chance to show what they are made of.

We have only one way of playing and if that is nullified we look like a deer caught in headlights. We absolutely need to change things up, go back to basics and utilize all our players effectively. Unfortunately, our manager is a raging moron who will do none of that.

[Niall_Quinn]

I wouldn't mind so much if we played him properly once in a while to see what he can do! I do agree about the other, although the money is ridiculous, it's the price a top club has to pay to get the top players. Trouble is, Wenger doesn't agree with overpaying for players, but he just buys a lot for his money instead of quality and he has to keep buying. It would be cheaper to get the quality in the first place.

Exactly. Wenger and the board see eye to eye when it comes to attempting to play at the top level on a second tier budget. Which is weird because then they go and fuck up the whole philosophy by paying average players big money way, way before they have ever done anything to earn it. I think Wenger has always been paranoid about losing what he sees as his young talent, so he overpays for his pet projects to retain them. Then he fails to develop them and money wasted. Even worse they hang around at the club and eventually end up on silly money. I think Diaby was getting 70K for never playing. That idiot Bendtner was on 50+ with his heels dug in, like a cat that doesn't want to get kicked out for the night.

So there's a bag of conflicting and competing policies when it comes to the money. But in the end we bagged a bunch of second tier, and I'd even say third tier in Perez's case, players for 90mill. Pure panic mode and another symptom of refusing to spend the required amount early and often. As a club we seem to derive a perverse pleasure in almost winning something even though we've spent less than our rivals. Then we just assume if they had spent less, we'd be the better team and we'd win. Doubtful really. The money is the excuse for many ailments and it's the blanket and shield for Wenger's lack of proper squad planning.

So answering the following post by PnG, yes I agree to a degree. There's more going on here than just the money and the money wouldn't be able to cover all flaws. But I think just getting better quality on to the pitch, picking the right professionals, it might help drag up the performance levels and if nothing else it would redress the balance between the banker-like owners and executives and the hard taxed fans. But yes, I concede, given who would be doing the spending and humming and hawing and prevaricating, it's either unlikely we'd seriously be able to compete against our rivals in the transfer market or, if we managed it, we'd buy precisely what we don't need and then try to shoehorn another player into a fundamentally broken operation and lament when that player couldn't pull us out of the fire off his own back.

We've had some great players down the years who almost managed to pull us up, but nobody ever managed it because the deficit between where we need to be as a club and where we actually are is too big and being gradually widened rather than closed. One man is at the focal point and it sounds like we have at least another 2 years of it yet.

[Niall_Quinn]

I am not sure how this is supposed to work. Alexis is more than a 60 million quid striker at the moment. Assuming we continue to play with one man upfront then where would you have played this 60 million pound striker? I have no issues with Perez and would love him to get a run of games. What I'd like instead (and I have been saying this for many years now) is for us to revert back to the 4-4-2 formation for some our homes games and against lower table sides. That'll give the likes of both Sanchez/Giroud, Giroud/Perez or Sanchez/Perez a chance to show what they are made of.

We have only one way of playing and if that is nullified we look like a deer caught in headlights. We absolutely need to change things up, go back to basics and utilize all our players effectively. Unfortunately, our manager is a raging moron who will do none of that.

Wenger wants every outfield player to be able to play in every position, and that's how he sets us up. Our striker drifting deep, our wide men (infuriatingly) drifting to the centre, our "holding" midfielders racing up the pitch to get on the end of crosses coming in from the central striker. Tell me I'm wrong.

So if you are so arrogant that you believe your players are masters of all trades and comfortable with "total football" then you'd best have masters on the pitch and not minors who talk a good game but then can't deliver.

So a new striker and Alexis on the same pitch is really no problem at all. You just hope the new guy can hold it up better, pass it more accurately, shoot more effectively than the guys we already have.

[mastermind84]

:lol: Stop lying. You weren't. I was saying in the below thread I've never understood why Sanchez was never given a run up front when replying to AFC Leveller when he said Sanchez should be played through the middle.

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3538&page=10&p=503923#post503923

Here was your response.



You weren't the one advocate and the thing you've said he shouldn't be doing and can't do (create) is what's helping the players around him now. Over the summer, you went further and said he can't play as striker.

You're not even the first to say Sanchez should play up front. It's a conversation that goes as far back as when IBK used to post on here. See below. It goes even further back because I recall some other posters mentioning it way back when discussing our striker options when Giroud was injured and we signed Welbeck.

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3417

I made the below comment.




You were involved in that thread and said nothing about Sanchez being able to play up front. It's not even an original point because when we first bought Sanchez, Wenger said he could play up front and had him playing there for a short stint. As said before, I've never understood why he wasn't given much game time up front when first arriving. He had a slow start but it's not million miles away from the slow start he's had playing up front this season.

In previous conversations about what sort of striker we need, you kept emphasizing having someone strong enough to hold the ball up. I've kept saying we don't need that. Theo's game against Utd was an example and how Sanchez is playing now is further evidence. Sanchez dropping deep presents a problem for Ozil but it hasn't stopped the creativity. Theo is scoring goals, Ozil is scoring and even Ox is having his best season goal wise. Space opens up when we have a striker that's not so static.

I'm now seeing discussions on what sort of striker works with Ozil and some articles suggesting to even go back to Giroud. Why would we do that? With Sanchez being goal scorer and taking over the chance creation and assist duties from Ozil, isn't this thread and discussion still relevant? Ozil will have to adapt to the circumstances. He's not the most influential player. From midfield, it's still Santi Cazorla. You've also been wrong about Xhaka but that's another topic. So if Ozil isn't the main guy in the final third anymore or the main guy helping us get the ball from the defence into the final third...is he that big an influence on how we play?


thats inaccurate.

There was no balance yesterday. We had a great attack, and its probably our best attack since 2007-8, but the balance is bad. Sanchez is great attacking on the right, but he left Bellerin out to dry. Same with Iwobi on the left.

We also need to start playing 3 CMs.

I cannot stress this enough, but if Sanchez learns how to play center forward it would solve a lot of our problems. But Sanchez is super daft and will keep chasing the ball and just messing up things.

He still chases the ball and it hurts our shape. I am critical of him because ALexis does eat space.


Alexis is a forward. Like the world midfield needs to be taken out of his position and mindset.

Alexis loves the ball too much

But it really should work. We have the guys to get him the ball. He just needs to be patient.



Speaking of things that have nothing to do with this thread, how is Vincent Janssen doing?


And I have been right about Xhaka. The problem is Wenger refuses to implement him correctly but even in this mess of a system, the guy has been great for us.

How is Elneny doing? Remember when you said he had a wide passing range?

I have to keep saying it but the problem with this squad is Wenger and Wenger alone. He doesnt emphasize the buildup.

[Power n Glory]

He still chases the ball and it hurts our shape. I am critical of him because ALexis does eat space.






Speaking of things that have nothing to do with this thread, how is Vincent Janssen doing?


And I have been right about Xhaka. The problem is Wenger refuses to implement him correctly but even in this mess of a system, the guy has been great for us.

How is Elneny doing? Remember when you said he had a wide passing range?

I have to keep saying it but the problem with this squad is Wenger and Wenger alone. He doesnt emphasize the buildup.

Xhaka's being used wrong? You mean like in a 4-3-3 but with Ramsey and Wilshere in midfield bombing forward? It's looking unlikely Xhaka can control the midfield on his own and needs a partner. He hasn't solved that problem as you once claimed.

You're still wrong about Sanchez because with him dropping back to create, it makes space for Theo, Ozil and OX/Iwobi to run in behind. Way more intelligent than you give him credit for and can spot a pass.

Humble yourself. :lol: You're not right about everything. I know I'm not.

[mastermind84]

Xhaka's being used wrong? You mean like in a 4-3-3 but with Ramsey and Wilshere in midfield bombing forward? It's looking unlikely Xhaka can control the midfield on his own and needs a partner. He hasn't solved that problem as you once claimed.
No, I mean in a 3 man midfield where everyone plays their zone and Xhaka drops behind the fullbacks to collect the ball and play it forward and is almost like a CB when we have the ball.

He is an ELITE DLP that Wenger decided he wanted to be a box to box midfielder. Thats what I meant when I say Wenger does not worry about the build up. You can see it from how often he touches the ball at Arsenal vs at Mochengladbach. Xhaka rarely gets over 80 passes at Arsenal when he did that regularly there.

Even still, his vertical passing has been beneficial for our wins against West Ham and Basel. He was even solid against Everton.

City was a disaster but the bigger question is where were the outlet balls? Our wide players were way too deep.



You're still wrong about Sanchez because with him dropping back to create, it makes space for Theo, Ozil and OX/Iwobi to run in behind. Way more intelligent than you give him credit for and can spot a pass.
I don't think he is way more intelligent than im giving him credit for, if anything I think you are downplaying the intelligence of Theo and Ozil and Iwobi.

Dropping back isnt to create for his teammates. It is supposed to be to pull out the centerbacks. The only time that worked against a top side was Chelsea who were a disaster.

Alexis can def spot a pass, but Ozil is much better at it and Alexis falls in love with slide rule passes that are hard to complete. I wish he would play it over the top a bit more than he does.

What Ive always said is that he is an elite finisher who needs to be closer to goal. There are still a lot of flaws with us but it mostly comes down to Wenger.


Humble yourself. :lol: You're not right about everything. I know I'm not.

I know I am not right about everything. I take Ls a lot. I am not sure I am wrong here tho, especially since I think most of our problems come down to Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

Xhaka hardly getting over 80 passes is down to his style of play. That's not usually a problem for Santi or Elneny when playing. But they play a shorter passing game and it's pass and move, pass and move when they play.

I'm not even sure about a 3 man midfield with everyone playing their zones would work. We certainly could do with more structure there but the issue with Xhaka goes all the way back to when we played City during the pre season. When pressed and harassed, he'll make mistakes. Passes go astray and he's easily dispossessed. I recall Blink noticing how the majority of great passes we saw in those youtube clips over the summer were made under no pressure and defenders gave him loads of space. He knew he wouldn't that sort of time and space for us at Arsenal. It's a good observation because that's why he's not having the impact you expected. Wenger did say something weird about him being box to box but also said recently hat he is a deep laying player. He certainly doesn't play box to box for us and it has often been Coquelin pushing up further than Xhaka but that's in order to win the ball back early. Xhaka often sits deeper and I rarely see him burst from box to box.

If you had watched the first half of the City pre season game, you'd have seen how Xhaka struggled against the high press and we were boxed in for the first. Only until Elneny came on did we get a hold of the midfield and beat City. Xhaka would dwindle on the ball and have it pinched off his toes or get closed down when trying to sort his feet out. It's worth listening to Arsenal Vision podcast. They noticed this flaw in his game too and said it's down to him being so one footed and unwilling to pass the ball with his weaker foot. That's another good observation and explains why I have no faith in him playing against high pressing teams. If he receives it on his weaker side, he'll try to shift it to his left foot. It leaves him vulnerable and it looks like he's dwindling on the ball.

Not sure how you can conclude that I don't appreciate the intelligence of Theo, Iwobi and Ozil. I never once downplayed their intelligence. That statement in itself is just another demonstration of you undercutting Alexis. You're also playing semantics with this dropping back thing. His movement is what creates space for players to get in behind. He doesn't have to touch the ball. Rewatch Ozil's last goal with that header and assist from Ox. It's not just a case of it working against Chelsea. As said, we're seeing the fruits from that with the goals Theo, Ox, Iwobi and Ozil have scored this season. This is the most Ozil has ever scored in a season. Same goes for Ox.

[mastermind84]

Xhaka hardly getting over 80 passes is down to his style of play. That's not usually a problem for Santi or Elneny when playing. But they play a shorter passing game and it's pass and move, pass and move when they play.

Thats why I said Xhaka is an ELITE deep lying playmaker being asked to play box to box.

He would get more touches if he was playing where he is elite on the pitch. Its like asking Ozil to be a left back.

Elneny is a Denilson clone and Santi is definitely more busier. But the difference between Xhaka and Santi in their passing is Xhaka has a better range of passing. Santi's gift is that he is two footed while Xhaka's gift is he can ping a ball 70 yards up the pitch to spring a counter.

Wenger is using him wrong.


I'm not even sure about a 3 man midfield with everyone playing their zones would work. We certainly could do with more structure there but the issue with Xhaka goes all the way back to when we played City during the pre season. When pressed and harassed, he'll make mistakes. Passes go astray and he's easily dispossessed. I recall Blink noticing how the majority of great passes we saw in those youtube clips over the summer were made under no pressure and defenders gave him loads of space. He knew he wouldn't that sort of time and space for us at Arsenal. It's a good observation because that's why he's not having the impact you expected. Wenger did say something weird about him being box to box but also said recently hat he is a deep laying player. He certainly doesn't play box to box for us and it has often been Coquelin pushing up further than Xhaka but that's in order to win the ball back early. Xhaka often sits deeper and I rarely see him burst from box to box.

If you had watched the first half of the City pre season game, you'd have seen how Xhaka struggled against the high press and we were boxed in for the first. Only until Elneny came on did we get a hold of the midfield and beat City. Xhaka would dwindle on the ball and have it pinched off his toes or get closed down when trying to sort his feet out. It's worth listening to Arsenal Vision podcast. They noticed this flaw in his game too and said it's down to him being so one footed and unwilling to pass the ball with his weaker foot. That's another good observation and explains why I have no faith in him playing against high pressing teams. If he receives it on his weaker side, he'll try to shift it to his left foot. It leaves him vulnerable and it looks like he's dwindling on the ball.
Xhaka was bypassed City's press in the first half on Sunday before the goal, so I dont know how true that statement is. He also played in the Bundesliga which is the league that presses the most and started the shift to organized pressing in football, so that aint true either.

And Arsenal plays a double pivot so both midfielders push up.

You watched the match on Sunday and saw us get outnumbered vs a midfield 3 with our two man midfield and Ozil and Iwobi swapping the 3rd midfield role but really being attackers. How can you see that, and see what happens against other teams with 3 man midfield in our big matches like Liverpool, PSG, and United. Even Southampton, and not think we should go with a 3 man midfield? The issue is Wenger doesnt know how to organize one properly, and Coquelin being awful versus one (City didnt even bother pressing him and double teamed Xhaka. Coquelin was absolutely horrendous on Sunday. He only completed 16/26 passes, and only 4/10 passes in the 2nd half.)

Make Ozil a forward and bring in a real 3rd midfielder and drop Coquelin. Id not even have a problem with Elneny because of his 1 touch passing because he gives an option.

On Sunday, we had to go with Coquelin due to injuries but going forward there needs to be a 3rd ACTUAL central midfielder in the team and Coquelin should not be one of them.


Not sure how you can conclude that I don't appreciate the intelligence of Theo, Iwobi and Ozil. I never once downplayed their intelligence. That statement in itself is just another demonstration of you undercutting Alexis. You're also playing semantics with this dropping back thing. His movement is what creates space for players to get in behind. He doesn't have to touch the ball. Rewatch Ozil's last goal with that header and assist from Ox. It's not just a case of it working against Chelsea. As said, we're seeing the fruits from that with the goals Theo, Ox, Iwobi and Ozil have scored this season. This is the most Ozil has ever scored in a season. Same goes for Ox.
I am saying it about Alexis because its what he does. He is a space eater.

I am not ignoring Theo and Ozil scoring off Alexis but they have adjusted to what he does. What he is doing now is not demonstrably different than when he was playing on the flanks, its just that its in the central channels now. Thats why I am saying to give the others credit because they are running into that vacated area. Less intelligent players ignore it.

As for Ozil scoring more goals, like I said prior he and Alexis have become something like a false 9 partnership.





At the end of the day, a lot of our fans, and the English speaking football media, love to shit on players. Its why you got that hack article from Barney Ronay, or the pathetic article about Arshavin being more productive than Ozil, etc. They also love runners, people who look like they are doing something. Its easier to see. Whats not easy is to take a look at the system. There is a systemic problem with this club's tactics. I do not have the answers but the man who is supposed to have the solutions also does not. This current system is not working and has not for some time. You can all sit here and scapegoat and blame top players who have shown top ability at other stops, but if they are shining elsewhere in bigger matches and failing here, who is the problem? Its been this way for a decade. Its not mentality, determination, pashun, physicality, or whatever nonsense cliches that the Ronay types like to say, or what you read from Arseblog. There is a tactical issue here. This team will never reach its potential until Wenger either changes his ways and starts implementing whats going on around him in Europe and starts using his players correctly, or he goes. Its that.

[Niall_Quinn]

There is a systemic problem with this club's tactics. I do not have the answers but the man who is supposed to have the solutions also does not. This current system is not working and has not for some time. You can all sit here and scapegoat and blame top players who have shown top ability at other stops, but if they are shining elsewhere in bigger matches and failing here, who is the problem? Its been this way for a decade. Its not mentality, determination, pashun, physicality, or whatever nonsense cliches that the Ronay types like to say, or what you read from Arseblog. There is a tactical issue here. This team will never reach its potential until Wenger either changes his ways and starts implementing whats going on around him in Europe and starts using his players correctly, or he goes.

This is what it all amounts to. A bad conductor can fuck-up the most adept orchestra, a bad choreographer can leave a prima ballerina on her arse, a football team coached by Wenger is going to be swimming in deep, deep shit. Whether they are strong enough individually to swim hard and prevail, well some of them can and some of them can't. The joke is the man looks set to get another 2 years, which means nothing changes. Get rid of Ozil, get a replacement in, same result.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I think the Xhaka box to box thing was one of the most bizarre comments Wenger has ever made.....

It couldn't appear more untrue.

[Power n Glory]

Thats why I said Xhaka is an ELITE deep lying playmaker being asked to play box to box.

He would get more touches if he was playing where he is elite on the pitch. Its like asking Ozil to be a left back.

That's why he's the wrong purchase. When we discussed Xhaka during the summer, I said I couldn't see the need for him. We don't thrive off long balls and it would mean altering how we play to accommodate his style. If were capable of dribbling through the lines like Santi and powering through the middle, I could see the point of him. But I didn't during the summer and still can't see the point of him now. He's not that good on defending either. 1/4 tackles vs City and we couldn't win the ball back from deep. I really don't know what Wenger was thinking when he bought him. I suspect a scout recommended him but in no way shape or form should he have been our first signing this summer. There is a much bigger gap to Santi and Xhaka. Chalk and cheese.

Speaking of Coquelin, yes, he's a limited player with his passing. But until Xhaka and Elneny figure out how to win the ball back, we're stuck. That was the problem against City. We couldn't win the ball back in the 2nd half. You saw the first goal and I have no idea what Xhaka was doing. He rushed around like a headless chicken whilst they passed the ball from man to man.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qakGDiDOqao

Xhaka should have won the header easily enough from the goal kick. He was under no pressure. But he just runs around in circles whilst they ping pong the ball around him. His attempts to cut out the passes were weak. He just flicks out a leg. Coquelin manages to get a good tackle in and if Xhaka had some more composure and positional sense, he could have recovered that ball. It was a great Flamini impression.

Even the second goal was a result of Xhaka. He mistimed pass goes out of play resulting in a throw in for City. It's not good enough. Basic stuff. So regardless of his best position, he's still a central midfielder and we're talking about a slight shift in positions not a complete shift like the Ozil/leftback example you've given. It shouldn't result in these sort of mistakes.


Make Ozil a forward and bring in a real 3rd midfielder .

Doesn't that just sum up the thread? Why even consider converting Ozil into a forward if what he was doing last season was so essential to our success? If he goes, we might as well bring in a proper forward. Heck, I'm not against playing Giroud with Sanchez behind him or having Sanchez play with Welbeck or Walcott ahead of him.

We don't play a 2 man midfield. Ozil is still an attacking AM. With Iwobi drifting in, it should provide an extra body. Ozil should still be able to drift back and steady the midfield when the going gets tough.


I am saying it about Alexis because its what he does. He is a space eater.


As for Ozil scoring more goals, like I said prior he and Alexis have become something like a false 9 partnership.

You're still not giving enough credit to Sanchez. Why wasn't Ozil scoring more goals with Giroud up front?

[Power n Glory]

I think the Xhaka box to box thing was one of the most bizarre comments Wenger has ever made.....

It couldn't appear more untrue.

It's very bizarre. I highly suspect somebody recommended him as a signing and once Wenger had him in a training, he wasn't impressed. We didn't need him and he hasn't enhanced our midfield play in the same way we've seen the major different Santi has made in that role. But the blueprint for the type of midfielder was here at the club before we moved Santi to that role in Rosicky. It took Wenger an age to play him there and instead preferred playing him wide. The mismanagement goes way back and he never gets it right.

It's an endless cycle with us. Find the right striker, mess up the midfield. Find the right midfield, mess up the strikers.

[Marc Overmars]

Ozil has said that he is willing to sign a new deal but wants clarity on Wenger's future first.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Ozil has said that he is willing to sign a new deal but wants clarity on Wenger's future first.

We all want that.

[GP]

I don't.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger said the below back in December.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/12/23/arsene-wenger-hints-at-new-arsenal-contract-in-april-6342948/




‘I always said that I will judge where I stand in spring and make my decisions then. And the club is free as well. It’s not because I am here a long time that I have any rights. We are both on the same boat,’ he explained.

‘The club are happy and it will not affect planning. There are plenty of managers who arrived at the end of their contract. It happened to me before. I signed sometimes in March, April for longer contracts. So I don’t think it’s a problem.

‘I worked everywhere I was until the last day of my contract with total commitment. That’s why maybe I can go back everywhere I was, because people respect that.’

Wenger must see that his stance harms the club. This saga will role on into the summer. If he decides he doesn't want to stay and the club have held hopes on him staying, we're left in a pretty shitty position.

[LDG]

Ozil has said that he is willing to sign a new deal but wants clarity on Wenger's future first.

Arseblog straight in there with his "calm and considered" opinion. We should obviously get Wenger to sign to hold onto our best players.....so we can still underachieve.

Leicester proved that it's not all about star players. It comes from the manager first and foremost, and Wenger's chance came and went a long time ago.

What is it with this bloke? I know he wants us to do well, and I understand his worry about losing out best players. But he needs to stop being a big girls blouse and accept that change tales time, and the whole club needs to start again. If that means struggling for a while, so be it.

[AFC Leveller]

We hear a lot about managers losing the dressing room and not having the players' respect but its obviously not the case with Wenger. The biggest players at the club obviously still see him as a key figure and its a dilema for the board. You either keep the over the hill manager AND your best players or risk losing all and starting from scratch. Im all for change and a fresh start under a new manager but if we were to lose Wenger and Sanchez/Ozil and potentlially others then it would take usa few years to start challenging again (see Man u last 4 years).

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger said the below back in December.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/12/23/arsene-wenger-hints-at-new-arsenal-contract-in-april-6342948/




Wenger must see that his stance harms the club. This saga will role on into the summer. If he decides he doesn't want to stay and the club have held hopes on him staying, we're left in a pretty shitty position.

Wenger believes his mere presence is a bounteous blessing. The sheer privilege of his gracing the club with his presence should be sufficient for all. As for his decision on whether to stay or leave, well he phoned this morning and thanked you for your interest in his affairs. Mr Arsenal will let us know in due course and in his own sweet time what suits him, and him alone, best.

This man is a long way from the place where he transformed the club and took as to unmatched heights. It's hard to imagine we're talking about the same guy.

[Power n Glory]

We hear a lot about managers losing the dressing room and not having the players' respect but its obviously not the case with Wenger. The biggest players at the club obviously still see him as a key figure and its a dilema for the board. You either keep the over the hill manager AND your best players or risk losing all and starting from scratch. Im all for change and a fresh start under a new manager but if we were to lose Wenger and Sanchez/Ozil and potentlially others then it would take usa few years to start challenging again (see Man u last 4 years).

We’re not challenging for anything now even with Ozil and Sanchez. Our biggest signing has to be a new manager. Even if we lost both players we at least need the funds from the sales so a new manager can buy replacements. Just look at what Klopp and Poch are doing with Liverpool and Spurs. They’ve got way weaker attacking players but are way more efficient that us. A new manager may even prefer the funds so he can build his own team rather keep these guys. But I’m sure if the club sign a top class manager, we won’t lose any of our players.

[Marc Overmars]

Arseblog straight in there with his "calm and considered" opinion. We should obviously get Wenger to sign to hold onto our best players.....so we can still underachieve.

Leicester proved that it's not all about star players. It comes from the manager first and foremost, and Wenger's chance came and went a long time ago.

What is it with this bloke? I know he wants us to do well, and I understand his worry about losing out best players. But he needs to stop being a big girls blouse and accept that change tales time, and the whole club needs to start again. If that means struggling for a while, so be it.

Agreed, it's an awful circle we're stuck in. Wenger is the king of under achievement and even with money and some of the best players we've had in years the results are the same. Where's the title challenge? Are we any better in Europe than we were 5 years ago? I understand that without Wenger's standing in the game we wouldn't have Ozil or Sanchez, but are we any closer to the major prizes? No and if we are, it's marginal at best.

If Ozil really wants to continue being molly cuddled by Wenger then he's probably not the player for us, if Wenger goes and he follows, so be it. A big waft of underachievement will follow them both out the door.

[Letters]

Ozil has said that he is willing to sign a new deal but wants clarity on Wenger's future first.

Interestingly, the article I saw this morning sounded like he wants to make sure Wenger is staying before committing to his future with us which shows that all the stuff about top players not wanting to play for him is nonsense.

[GP]

He only wants him to stay because he's lazy and Wankger gives him an easy ride.

[Power n Glory]

Interestingly, the article I saw this morning sounded like he wants to make sure Wenger is staying before committing to his future with us which shows that all the stuff about top players not wanting to play for him is nonsense.


I question whether he's a top player if he's content with this shite.

[Letters]

You question whether he's a top player constantly. No-one else does.

[Niall_Quinn]

Interestingly, the article I saw this morning sounded like he wants to make sure Wenger is staying before committing to his future with us which shows that all the stuff about top players not wanting to play for him is nonsense.

I don't think anyone ever said the players don't want to play for him. On the contrary, most of them seem enthralled by his myth. I wonder about Alexis though, a natural winner. An absolute super star in his native country and a guy who has been at one of the top clubs and seen what it is like to compete at the very top level. He may respect Wenger, I would think most of them do. But how long will he respect the end result as the seasons roll on? How long will he feel comfortable being out of genuinely competitive sport?

[Power n Glory]

You question whether he's a top player constantly. No-one else does.

I question a lot of things. I don't follow popular opinion just because.

Any player or coach not pushing for excellence with this club, I have a problem with.

[Niall_Quinn]

The Ozil situation is lose/ lose.

If he's being truthful then he'll only stay if Wenger stays - Massive loss.
Wenger says he won't decide if he's staying (we all know he is so why the charade?) until the end of the season - Lose, because that gives our top players an easy out and a nice timespan to search for better deals.

Even a win is a loss. If Wenger decides to leave then Ozil leaves too and that deprives any proper manager coming in from working with Ozil in a sane system.

And if Ozil goes then expect to see Alexis follow him out. Alexis could be gone anyway but watching one of the very few world class players walk away is hardly going to encourage Alexis to stay.

I see a stitch-up in the making. Please, please, please Arsene! Please stay so our best players stay too. Oh please Arsene, we beg you to stay!

"Maybe I stay little bit just to help the fans, I make this sacrifice for the fans and for Arsenal Football Club! (Wenger smirk)" - Game, set , match.

[AFC Leveller]

We’re not challenging for anything now even with Ozil and Sanchez. Our biggest signing has to be a new manager. Even if we lost both players we at least need the funds from the sales so a new manager can buy replacements. Just look at what Klopp and Poch are doing with Liverpool and Spurs. They’ve got way weaker attacking players but are way more efficient that us. A new manager may even prefer the funds so he can build his own team rather keep these guys. But I’m sure if the club sign a top class manager, we won’t lose any of our players.

Id prefer a new manager and ne wplayers if im honest, espcially if its someone like Simeone, a strong tactician and motivator who knows how to set up.

[Power n Glory]

Id prefer a new manager and ne wplayers if im honest, espcially if its someone like Simeone, a strong tactician and motivator who knows how to set up.

That's where we'll see the biggest difference. It's the most important signing we'll make.

[selassie]

Arseblog straight in there with his "calm and considered" opinion. We should obviously get Wenger to sign to hold onto our best players.....so we can still underachieve.

Leicester proved that it's not all about star players. It comes from the manager first and foremost, and Wenger's chance came and went a long time ago.

What is it with this bloke? I know he wants us to do well, and I understand his worry about losing out best players. But he needs to stop being a big girls blouse and accept that change tales time, and the whole club needs to start again. If that means struggling for a while, so be it.

That's how I feel.

If Ozil's future is tied to Wenger and Wenger wants to go then Ozil can go with him. Sanchez too and anybody that cries about their future being tied to Wenger, we don't need them, they need to be washed out with Wenger because we're going nowhere fast with Wenger in charge.

We have plenty of issues at this club...the board are very much part of it but let's start first with the football team, get rid of the underachieving manager and create a "pragmatic" culture, a culture where the new manager will do everything in his power to ensure we have the best possible chance of winning..."WINNING IS EVERYTHING".

[Goonermerree]

I don't see why the manager's future should influence Ozil's decision that much. If he leaves he'll have to play under a new manager, he's just laying out his excuses. Maybe Wenger gives him an easy ride and he doesn't want to lose that.

[selassie]

I don't see why the manager's future should influence Ozil's decision that much. If he leaves he'll have to play under a new manager, he's just laying out his excuses. Maybe Wenger gives him an easy ride and he doesn't want to lose that.

Neither do I, I suspect it's another excuse to give Ozil breathing space...it remains to be seen whether the masses swallow it up because it sounds like hogwash to me.

I do think there is an element of truth in Wenger giving him an easy ride though, he's a good player but would be under immense pressure at any of our rivals to deliver top class performances on a weekly basis.

[AFC Leveller]

That's where we'll see the biggest difference. It's the most important signing we'll make.

The thing that i hate most about the current regime is the inevitable failure around February/March. Going into big away games at OT, Chelsea etc knowing we have no chance and we will freeze, having fear before games instead of excitement.

A new manager (not just any new manager, someone young and in the Klopp/Pochetinho mould) would be a huge signing and a massive step in the right direction.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't see why the manager's future should influence Ozil's decision that much. If he leaves he'll have to play under a new manager, he's just laying out his excuses. Maybe Wenger gives him an easy ride and he doesn't want to lose that.

Very much so. He's telling us that like Wenger, he'll decide whether to go or stay at the end of the season. Gives more clubs time to circle. Behind every player there's an agent.

[Niall_Quinn]

Neither do I, I suspect it's another excuse to give Ozil breathing space...it remains to be seen whether the masses swallow it up because it sounds like hogwash to me.

I do think there is an element of truth in Wenger giving him an easy ride though, he's a good player but would be under immense pressure at any of our rivals to deliver top class performances on a weekly basis.

Two weeks in bed. Must have been ebola or something like that. Poor guy.

Alexis would be charging up the pitch with his ankle cuffed to the sawn-off bed post.

[selassie]

Two weeks in bed. Must have been ebola or something like that. Poor guy.

Alexis would be charging up the pitch with his ankle cuffed to the sawn-off bed post.

The sad thing is that this is actually not far from the truth. Alexis played with a minor Hamstring injury for Chile fairly recently.

[Power n Glory]

Two weeks in bed. Must have been ebola or something like that. Poor guy.

Alexis would be charging up the pitch with his ankle cuffed to the sawn-off bed post.

You say this yet have trouble understanding why I'm not letting players off the hook for poor performances.

It's the same argument I have the Wenger when it comes to the Board. Regardless of the targets are set low, I don't understand why these players haven't set a certain standard for themselves when they go out there. It's not just the manager letting us down out there.

[Niall_Quinn]

You say this yet have trouble understanding why I'm not letting players off the hook for poor performances.

It's the same argument I have the Wenger when it comes to the Board. Regardless of the targets are set low, I don't understand why these players haven't set a certain standard for themselves when they go out there. It's not just the manager letting us down out there.

We weren't arguing about letting the players off the hook for poor performances FFS. We were arguing about the shitty style we play and the useless tactics that every person on the planet figure out 10 years ago.

If Ozil is being a lazy bastard I'll say so. It's not a case of having to be 100% consistent in applause or criticism. These things depend on events and circumstances. You want to criticise him all the time though.

[AFC Leveller]

Ozil tells Kicker: “I would love to wear the 10 shirt, I always wanted that, the club knew from the beginning. When I came to Arsenal in 2013, Jack Wilshere already had the 10. The club said I would get the 10 when it was free. She has been free since Wilshere’s departure in the summer – I have not been able to do it yet.”

He wants the shirt as well.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We weren't arguing about letting the players off the hook for poor performances FFS. We were arguing about the shitty style we play and the useless tactics that every person on the planet figure out 10 years ago.

If Ozil is being a lazy bastard I'll say so. It's not a case of having to be 100% consistent in applause or criticism. These things depend on events and circumstances. You want to criticise him all the time though.

To be honest I'm finding player performances and Wengers poor excuse for management equally troubling. If players could formulate a system and a game plan by themselves there would no need for a manager but there are basics that should be required of every player who makes it into top flight football.

Saturday tea time was frightening, how professional footballers could play like that....now you can blame Wenger all you like for that, but there's a thing called pride and these players played with none. They expected to turn up and when Preston let us know we were in a game the response was "fuck that".

Yeah Wenger is at fault too, because he admitted they underestimated Preston, which leads me to conclude that he is responsible for a culture of total and utter complacency and the players are too lazy to step up themselves.

[Power n Glory]

To be honest I'm finding player performances and Wengers poor excuse for management equally troubling. If players could formulate a system and a game plan by themselves there would no need for a manager but there are basics that should be required of every player who makes it into top flight football.

Saturday tea time was frightening, how professional footballers could play like that....now you can blame Wenger all you like for that, but there's a thing called pride and these players played with none. They expected to turn up and when Preston let us know we were in a game the response was "fuck that".

Yeah Wenger is at fault too, because he admitted they underestimated Preston, which leads me to conclude that he is responsible for a culture of total and utter complacency and the players are too lazy to step up themselves.

This is where I'm coming from. We're not even getting the basics right or even have the right attitude to even execute a strategy. It's a double edged sword.

[Ernesto]

Id prefer a new manager and ne wplayers if im honest, espcially if its someone like Simeone, a strong tactician and motivator who knows how to set up.

Is it true that he's sent a very coded, cryptic, read between the lines come and get me plea? He's been quoted as saying Arsenal is the most stable club in Europe recently

[Power n Glory]

Is it true that he's sent a very coded, cryptic, read between the lines come and get me plea? He's been quoted as saying Arsenal is the most stable club in Europe recently

I heard about that. It's a huge draw for any manager. Having the backing of the board is important when so many clubs are trigger happy.

[Niall_Quinn]

To be honest I'm finding player performances and Wengers poor excuse for management equally troubling. If players could formulate a system and a game plan by themselves there would no need for a manager but there are basics that should be required of every player who makes it into top flight football.

Saturday tea time was frightening, how professional footballers could play like that....now you can blame Wenger all you like for that, but there's a thing called pride and these players played with none. They expected to turn up and when Preston let us know we were in a game the response was "fuck that".

Yeah Wenger is at fault too, because he admitted they underestimated Preston, which leads me to conclude that he is responsible for a culture of total and utter complacency and the players are too lazy to step up themselves.

Do bank cashiers have pride in the bank they work for?

Never make the mistake of imagining Arsenal is a football club. That all changed when we jumped into bed with the arabs.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Not sure I'd really want Simeone, as much as our football lacks for entertainment I actually hate watching Atletico Madrid play

[GP]

It's not attractive, but at least we would see some kind of direction in our play.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Do bank cashiers have pride in the bank they work for?

Never make the mistake of imagining Arsenal is a football club. That all changed when we jumped into bed with the arabs.

The Arabs?

Who do you mean other than our stadium/shirt sponsor

It's not like you can say we were owned by Nips when we had JVC as our sponsor.

And neither the camel jockeys, the japs or the yanks are telling our players to not try.

[LDG]

You say this yet have trouble understanding why I'm not letting players off the hook for poor performances.

It's the same argument I have the Wenger when it comes to the Board. Regardless of the targets are set low, I don't understand why these players haven't set a certain standard for themselves when they go out there. It's not just the manager letting us down out there.

True, but isn't there one constant in all of the teams that have failed to perform over the last ten years?

Same defensive liabilities.

Same inability to turn up when required.

Same same same same...

Bored of reciting it now.

Not every player is Alexis mind. Some players need guidance tactically, some need confidence...and in order to get the best out of them, they need complimentary players.

But we know all of this. Yeah, I get angry at shirkers, but I'm more fed up we have come to expect it.

[Letters]

We need a strong captain IMO. Our greatest success came when we had proper captains.
Wenger isn't a motivator, never has been. Who is out there getting them going when things are going wrong?

[Power n Glory]

We need a strong captain IMO. Our greatest success came when we had proper captains.
Wenger isn't a motivator, never has been. Who is out there getting them going when things are going wrong?

We need a new manager. We can’t get into this captain debate again.

[Letters]

We do need a new manager, but I think with a strong captain we'd be challenging.

[Power n Glory]

True, but isn't there one constant in all of the teams that have failed to perform over the last ten years?

Same defensive liabilities.

Same inability to turn up when required.

Same same same same...

Bored of reciting it now.

Not every player is Alexis mind. Some players need guidance tactically, some need confidence...and in order to get the best out of them, they need complimentary players.

But we know all of this. Yeah, I get angry at shirkers, but I'm more fed up we have come to expect it.

It's the manager for sure. But we've got some players that shouldn't need much talking to.

If NQ honestly believes Ozil is slacking off in training and taken a sickie to get his Christmas break, then you have to question the player. Bergkamp and Henry wouldn't pull such a stunt in the middle of title race. It's not on.

[Letters]

"If" though. Who knows? What's the point in hammering a player for something you're just speculating about?

[Niall_Quinn]

It's the manager for sure. But we've got some players that shouldn't need much talking to.

If NQ honestly believes Ozil is slacking off in training and taken a sickie to get his Christmas break, then you have to question the player. Bergkamp and Henry wouldn't pull such a stunt in the middle of title race. It's not on.

I said I don't believe he's been in bed for 2 weeks. I don't necessarily think he's slacking off. This could be a sneaky Winter break engineered by Wenger himself. This could be a little sulk maybe as a result of the contract negotiations. It could be anything. Except the flu.

[Power n Glory]

"If" though. Who knows? What's the point in hammering a player for something you're just speculating about?

You've misread. That doesn't apply to you. I said if NQ honestly believes he's slacked off. I'm not speculating.

[Niall_Quinn]

The Arabs?

Who do you mean other than our stadium/shirt sponsor

It's not like you can say we were owned by Nips when we had JVC as our sponsor.

And neither the camel jockeys, the japs or the yanks are telling our players to not try.

I mean it was a landmark moment where we officially crossed from being a football club to being a for profit corporation and started operating as such. Sustainability, property deals, whoring out the team across the globe and then moaning about players being tired. The club became geared to money when we rented it out to the arabs and the football became secondary - not irrelevant, but secondary. Sponsors don't pour their money in because they are charitable. They want the name of the club and the time of the staff and players. It's all a bit seedy really, but the champagne and decked out jets disguise it.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

We hear a lot about managers losing the dressing room and not having the players' respect but its obviously not the case with Wenger. The biggest players at the club obviously still see him as a key figure and its a dilema for the board. You either keep the over the hill manager AND your best players or risk losing all and starting from scratch. Im all for change and a fresh start under a new manager but if we were to lose Wenger and Sanchez/Ozil and potentlially others then it would take usa few years to start challenging again (see Man u last 4 years).

What a ridiculously farcical post. What have we been challenging for? Last time we challenged for the title was some 12 going on 13 seasons ago.

Furthermore, Mancs were winning titles; we haven't, so quite disingenuous drawing such a contrast.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Interestingly, the article I saw this morning sounded like he wants to make sure Wenger is staying before committing to his future with us which shows that all the stuff about top players not wanting to play for him is nonsense.

Ozil has found paradise here. He knows he won't be molly cuddled at any top club the way he is here. Ffs he was offloaded by one not too long ago. He gets to pull his houdini acts against top opposition without being castigated by the manager. However he'll turn up against the dross where he looks sublime. He epitomises modern Arsenal under Wenger. A poster boy for a flat track bully club really.

It has precious little to do with top players wanting to play for the old fraud and you know it.

[Goonermerree]

We hear a lot about managers losing the dressing room and not having the players' respect but its obviously not the case with Wenger. The biggest players at the club obviously still see him as a key figure and its a dilema for the board. You either keep the over the hill manager AND your best players or risk losing all and starting from scratch. Im all for change and a fresh start under a new manager but if we were to lose Wenger and Sanchez/Ozil and potentlially others then it would take usa few years to start challenging again (see Man u last 4 years).


What a ridiculously farcical post. What have we been challenging for? Last time we challenged for the title was some 12 going on 13 seasons ago.

Furthermore, Mancs were winning titles; we haven't, so quite disingenuous drawing such a contrast.

Since Fergie left, United have won one Fa cup, we have won two FA cups. We have qualified for the CL two times more than them, then been knocked out in the first round of knock-out stages , they got to the qf once. There's hardly much difference in achievements really.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I mean it was a landmark moment where we officially crossed from being a football club to being a for profit corporation and started operating as such. Sustainability, property deals, whoring out the team across the globe and then moaning about players being tired. The club became geared to money when we rented it out to the arabs and the football became secondary - not irrelevant, but secondary. Sponsors don't pour their money in because they are charitable. They want the name of the club and the time of the staff and players. It's all a bit seedy really, but the champagne and decked out jets disguise it.

They also want clubs that win things, so they can festoon that allover their corporate merchandise

Emirates for example would love to shove on their British aircrafts - sponsors of the English Premier league champions

Like they have presumably done with PSG and Real Madrid when they've won big things

[Power n Glory]

We do need a new manager, but I think with a strong captain we'd be challenging.

We've got plenty of experienced players that were captains and leaders for former clubs and country. From keeper to up front. It's nothing to do with who is captain. It's the culture allowed to fester at the club.

[Goonermerree]

I do think a strong captain helps though. At least you have someone on the pitch to rally the troops. However, we do need a new manager.

[Power n Glory]

They also want clubs that win things, so they can festoon that allover their corporate merchandise

Emirates for example would love to shove on their British aircrafts - sponsors of the English Premier league champions

Like they have presumably done with PSG and Real Madrid when they've won big things

It's definitely not the sponsors that's a problem. Wenger has hid behind a lack of funding for years, be it the stadium capacity or the small sponsorship deals. Deflecting attention and pressure away from himself so his short comings aren't exposed. He's the only one that has delivered on what was originally sold to the fans.

[Power n Glory]

I do think a strong captain helps though. At least you have someone on the pitch to rally the troops. However, we do need a new manager.

You can see Sanchez screaming his guts out each game for players to put a shift in. We've seen Merts walk over to Ozil screaming at him for walking off the pitch without thanking the fans. The players still do the same each week. Cech seems like a leader. Xhaka was captain of his former club. But check out this story. Wenger is telling Xhaka to tone done the aggression and have some discipline but Xhaka is in the press saying he won't change his style of play. These guys walk all over Wenger. He has to set the tone for what's acceptable and what's not.

[LDG]

We've got plenty of experienced players that were captains and leaders for former clubs and country. From keeper to up front. It's nothing to do with who is captain. It's the culture allowed to fester at the club.

Bang on.

They look absolutely clueless in a great deal of matches, as they're told to go out and do the same old shit again and again, and if it doesn't work, they're hung out to dry awaiting a 69th minute sub.

Captains kick arse if they have a plan that some players aren't carrying out properly. They can have a word, or lead by example.

Plan? There ain't no plan.

[Ernesto]

You can see Sanchez screaming his guts out each game for players to put a shift in. We've seen Merts walk over to Ozil screaming at him for walking off the pitch without thanking the fans. The players still do the same each week. Cech seems like a leader. Xhaka was captain of his former club. But check out this story. Wenger is telling Xhaka to tone done the aggression and have some discipline but Xhaka is in the press saying he won't change his style of play. These guys walk all over Wenger. He has to set the tone for what's acceptable and what's not.

It's a weird one, isn't it? Even some of the total c*nts we've had at this club in Wengers tenure. The Fabregas's, the Gallas's, the RvC's the c*ntley Cole's. None of them have laid a parting shot on Wenger. It's like he's obsessed with not being exposed to public humiliation much to the detriment of our own club. "OK, you can leave, but please don't make too much of a fuss, son"

It's probably what sets him apart from Ferguson. Stam, Keane, Ince, Sharpe. They've all had a pop at whiskey breath after they've left. It only made him stronger.

[AFC Leveller]

What a ridiculously farcical post. What have we been challenging for? Last time we challenged for the title was some 12 going on 13 seasons ago.

Furthermore, Mancs were winning titles; we haven't, so quite disingenuous drawing such a contrast.

What a ridiculously farcical reply.

We have been challenging (last year this time we were top if i remember correctly) but obviously bottled it when it got to February/March. Man u finished 7th, 5th etc over the last few years so obviously they have underachieved considering the money they spent.

Anyway my point was that it would take a few years for us to get our shit together. When you have the same manager for 20 odd years, it takes time to replace them and reorganize the structure of the club. If a massive club like Man u struggle, then so would we.

[Power n Glory]

What a ridiculously farcical reply.

We have been challenging (last year this time we were top if i remember correctly) but obviously bottled it when it got to February/March. Man u finished 7th, 5th etc over the last few years so obviously they have underachieved considering the money they spent.

Anyway my point was that it would take a few years for us to get our shit together. When you have the same manager for 20 odd years, it takes time to replace them and reorganize the structure of the club. If a massive club like Man u struggle, then so would we.

We may find it will take us some time to rebuild after Wenger but that’s only if we appoint the wrong manager. I think the problems at Utd and the replacing Fergie thing have been overblown. They’re struggling because they’ve picked poor managers. I wouldn’t say it’s down to having to replacing a manager that’s been at the helm for over 20 years. They picked David Moyes as Fergie’s successor which was an awful choice. Zero credentials to suggest he was up for that job but they picked him anyway. If they would have went with Mourinho, Conte, Klopp or Pep as soon as Fergie retired they wouldn’t be in such a bad position.

Also, we have to look at the flipside. We’ve seen managers come in and transform a club after a complete disasters. Look how Conte’s appointment has totally transformed Chelsea after a complete disaster of a season last year. Poch and Klopp have got Spurs and Liverpool looking like contenders for once. It’s about making the right appointment. We have the money to compete and we’ve seen how quickly Chelsea and City won the titles but they only won after appointing managers with experience of winning the league.

[AFC Leveller]

Not sure I'd really want Simeone, as much as our football lacks for entertainment I actually hate watching Atletico Madrid play

Simeone would be a great manager for us. He is a modern manager who would bring a lot of lost qualities to the club. Great motivator, tactician, winner etc he ticks all the boxes.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Simeone would be a great manager for us. He is a modern manager who would bring a lot of lost qualities to the club. Great motivator, tactician, winner etc he ticks all the boxes.

However one of the main problems we have with Wenger is that the football is terrible to watch, and i don't see any reason to replace him with someone who gets his teams playing even more turgid football than we do. I have no doubt he is a good tactician and a good motivator, but the football is awful.

We missed the trick by not bringing in Klopp, i think we want someone as similar as possible to him.

[selassie]

Simeone would be a great manager for us. He is a modern manager who would bring a lot of lost qualities to the club. Great motivator, tactician, winner etc he ticks all the boxes.

My thoughts too. We need the culture at the club to change, we need someone who is pragmatic, who values the results of the team and winning above everything.

This is not to say we need someone like Mourinho who is a complete c*nt, but we do need someone who is a lot more pragmatic and less principled than Wenger.

I think whoever we hire will not be given the same freedom or time as Wenger so they will and should be judged on a "results" only basis.

[Power n Glory]

However one of the main problems we have with Wenger is that the football is terrible to watch, and i don't see any reason to replace him with someone who gets his teams playing even more turgid football than we do. I have no doubt he is a good tactician and a good motivator, but the football is awful.

We missed the trick by not bringing in Klopp, i think we want someone as similar as possible to him.

I can't believe we let Liverpool get Klopp. Conte seems decent too. But I wouldn't mind Simeone.

[AFC Leveller]

I think Wenger will probably go upstairs when he calls it a day as manager. Someone of his experience and knowledge of the club will be let go easily by the board. Its common knowledge that the board lack football men and i think they will hire him as a director of football.

[Power n Glory]

Good grief no! It would be totally hypercritical of Wenger to accept such a role. He's been against such roles in the past and wouldn't accept the same working conditions for himself.

[AFC Leveller]

Good grief no! It would be totally hypercritical of Wenger to accept such a role. He's been against such roles in the past and wouldn't accept the same working conditions for himself.

dont get me wrong i want him gona full stop but i get the feeling that the board rely on him too much to ab able to get rid of him after 20 odd years.

[Power n Glory]

dont get me wrong i want him gona full stop but i get the feeling that the board rely on him too much to ab able to get rid of him after 20 odd years.

That would be my worst fear. He'd be a nightmare. Contract talks and transfers would drag on for ages.

[Power n Glory]

It's a weird one, isn't it? Even some of the total c*nts we've had at this club in Wengers tenure. The Fabregas's, the Gallas's, the RvC's the c*ntley Cole's. None of them have laid a parting shot on Wenger. It's like he's obsessed with not being exposed to public humiliation much to the detriment of our own club. "OK, you can leave, but please don't make too much of a fuss, son"

It's probably what sets him apart from Ferguson. Stam, Keane, Ince, Sharpe. They've all had a pop at whiskey breath after they've left. It only made him stronger.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/11442880/Arsenal-news-Arsene-Wenger-is-too-soft-to-confront-senior-players-claims-Graeme-Souness.html


"It amazes me that you never hear of his former players criticising him [Wenger].

"It's impossible to be a manager and not fall out with players, for the simple reason that they are young men with enormous egos. Maybe his players don't have a bad word to say about him because he never falls out with them.

"If you can sit on the bench, as manager of Arsenal, and allow Danny Welbeck to be as positionally indisicplined as he was on Wednesday [against Monaco], you either don't see it or you are not prepared to stand up and shout: 'Get out here'."

I think he has a point. Especially that last part.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well a broken clock is right twice a day and using that same logic, over a long enough timescale Souness must say enough things that one of them will make sense.

Although going to add a massive caveat, although i agree with Souness and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Wenger is totally non-confrontational with his players....1) there are players who have played under Wenger who aren't exactly flattering about him like Gervinho (although in his case that was to do with Wenger's mystifying lack of faith in him :lol:) 2) To date i am unaware of any players who have played under Mourinho going public about having fallen out with him, in fact a lot of players are very complimentary of the little sociopath and we know that he has no such qualms about giving stick to his under performing players

So basically whilst i agree with Souness' conclusion, i think the logic he has based his conclusion on is something of a fallacy.

[Power n Glory]

Mourinho has fallen out with plenty of players and some have gone public.

I don't recall many players falling out with Wenger but I recall Dennis saying they'd argue a lot about the amount of games played when he was edging to retirement. Wenger would produce stats all the time about the amount of ground he covered to show he was slowing down and that would drive Bergkamp mental. He'd reply back by asking if the stats show the key passes he made during the game.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Apparently Wiltord and Wenger almost got to the point where they would engage in fisticuffs, which explains why Wiltord went through his last season with us being out with a mysterious injury.

[Power n Glory]

Wiltord wasn't happy about being played on the wing so they'd argue about that. The common theme is the player being unhappy with Wenger and the player confronting the manager about it. Going back to what was being originally discussed and what Souness touched on, Wenger isn't hammering into players for the mistakes being made on the pitch. If he is barking instructions behind closed doors, they're not paying attention to him so you'd also have to question how much respect he really commands. It's a mystery. I think Souness has a point and I believe the manager is soft with his players. I think he can be brutal when he dismisses a player and drops them from the team but I don't think he's constantly on a players case when under performing. He came out to defend Ozil's work rate with stats after that poor City but even Bellerin has said Ozil is the laziest in training and he's not the first team mate to have a dig at him. Not sure why Wenger feels the need to make excuses for them. Even with the Adebayor situation he was a bit of a coward. He accused the fans of turning things sour. When sold Ade told the press that Wenger told him we needed the money and had to sell. What rubbish!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wiltord wasn't happy about being played on the wing so they'd argue about that. The common theme is the player being unhappy with Wenger and the player confronting the manager about it. Going back to what was being originally discussed and what Souness touched on, Wenger isn't hammering into players for the mistakes being made on the pitch. If he is barking instructions behind closed doors, they're not paying attention to him so you'd also have to question how much respect he really commands. It's a mystery. I think Souness has a point and I believe the manager is soft with his players. I think he can be brutal when he dismisses a player and drops them from the team but I don't think he's constantly on a players case when under performing. He came out to defend Ozil's work rate with stats after that poor City but even Bellerin has said Ozil is the laziest in training and he's not the first team mate to have a dig at him. Not sure why Wenger feels the need to make excuses for them. Even with the Adebayor situation he was a bit of a coward. He accused the fans of turning things sour. When sold Ade told the press that Wenger told him we needed the money and had to sell. What rubbish!

Oh i totally agree with the conclusion Souness draws, even Wenger's strongest advocates like David Dein have claimed that Wenger is totally non-confrontational which is fine in some ways as you don't want someone picking fights left, right and centre but it also means you lack the assertiveness to challenge something that clearly isn't fine.

I think if Wenger does stand up to his players it's usually a reactive rather than proactive measure as taken with the rows he supposedly had with Wiltord.

I just don't necessarily think Players having nothing bad to say about Wenger immediately can lead to you to that conclusion, and in Souness' case you can imagine he can't believe that no ex players have anything bad to say about a manager because so many of his ex players despise him.

My Argument (somewhat pedantic i'll concede) is Souness has come to the correct conclusion using the incorrect methodology.

[selassie]

That would be my worst fear. He'd be a nightmare. Contract talks and transfers would drag on for ages.

Mine too. I do get the feeling he will be around in some kind of advisory/consultant role...similar to SAF is/was at United.

I don't think the board will have the balls to get shot of him completely and I don't think Wenger will completely walk away.

More than anything...it worries me that Wenger will be fully involved in the recruitment of the new guy.

[Power n Glory]

##

[Master Splinter]

Bye.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yep. He's the best player in the PL and it will be impossible to replace him. Since we bought him the transfer market has got even more ridiculous and it would cost 80, 90, 100 mill to buy a like for like replacement. So if we sold him the quality of our squad would go down and stay down. What we need is a competent manager who can use Ozil in an effective system. In Wenger we are far, far away from that. Besides, if we ask about needing Ozil then Walcott, Ox, Alexis, Ramsey, Bellerin, Cech, Giroud, do we need any of them if we are going to stick with this ridiculous manager? No. We could do just as well with 11 average nobodies. Plus there's the question of prestige. If we start selling our best players again then the whole stadium thing is done. Well done for the fans anyway. As we know, the suits have all done rather well from it. But those promises of competing with the best, forget it.

This Ozil thing is pure silliness. Of course we want a player of his calibre here. Silly notions like selling him just detract from the only question that's on the table. How much longer will Wenger remain at this club. Because that gives the answer to everything else. If Wenger is determined to stay then sure, sell Ozil. What difference will it make? But if Wenger can be persuaded or forced to go then it's a whole new ball game. Sell nobody because we haven't seen any of these players in a sane system yet.

[Power n Glory]

Best player in the PL? :lol: When was the last time he was the best player on the pitch?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Best player in the PL? :lol: When was the last time he was the best player on the pitch?

Probably technically the most gifted, or at least one of the most....just a lazy fuck though

[AFC Leveller]

Great player, one of the best players in the world and an asset to any team.

However, his performances on the big games away from home always disappoint and the way he ducked out of every single fucking challenge today was infruriating.

Someone who deserves to be recognised as a game changer would have grabbed this game today and turned it around by either scoring a couple or making a real difference. He has failed to turn up today again.

[Gubby Allen]

I am not a fan. His crap and ineffective matches outnumber the good ones about 3 to 1, which is never a good sign. Whereas Sanchez is the reverse.

Ozil and Cech both live off of a reputation which I just don't see myself and I wouldn't be starting either of them at the moment. It wouldn't be any great loss to ship them both out along with Walcott and Coquelin and spend the 60 odd million much more wisely.

Not that it would count for shit. Sell them, keep them and play them or keep them and don't play them, we would still finish fourth regardless.

[Niall_Quinn]

Great player, one of the best players in the world and an asset to any team.

However, his performances on the big games away from home always disappoint and the way he ducked out of every single fucking challenge today was infruriating.

Someone who deserves to be recognised as a game changer would have grabbed this game today and turned it around by either scoring a couple or making a real difference. He has failed to turn up today again.

Yes, he's taking an easy ride. Like half the players (or more) in the squad. Doesn't speak well to his character but we can't be losing our genuine world class players just because Wenger won't fuck off. The old goat has stayed on way too long now and he's starting to do serious damage to the prospects of the club, maybe not off the pitch where the money is rolling in, but certainly on it. We stand the risk of Alexis, Ozil, Bellerin, Ox and probably others wanting away from this shit show. Frightening to think of what we might be left with and what sort of players the old crackpot will bring in if he gets another contract.

[Niall_Quinn]

Best player in the PL? :lol: When was the last time he was the best player on the pitch?

Easily. Different thing to being the most effective player in the PL, something that changes regularly. Hazard had a shit year last season. I'm betting the chav fans are happy nobody tried to heap Maureen's problems on the Belgian's shoulders and cut their noses off to spite their faces.

[Power n Glory]

Easily. Different thing to being the most effective player in the PL, something that changes regularly. Hazard had a shit year last season. I'm betting the chav fans are happy nobody tried to heap Maureen's problems on the Belgian's shoulders and cut their noses off to spite their faces.

This is his 4th season and not once has he looked close to being player of the season. Heck, the fucker hasn't once won player of the month since being here! This is far from the situation Hazard was in.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is his 4th season and not once has he looked close to being player of the season. Heck, the fucker hasn't once won player of the month since being here! This is far from the situation Hazard was in.

Player of the season, different thing again. As I said, this is a very silly conversation. The idea we vandalise the team just because our manager is shit. What does that get us exactly?

[Power n Glory]

Player of the season, different thing again. As I said, this is a very silly conversation. The idea we vandalise the team just because our manager is shit. What does that get us exactly?

Explain why he deserves to be labelled as the best player in the league if I'm getting it wrong. Is he the best in front of goal, quickest, best dribbler, best at controlling a midfield, best under pressure.....

We have a shit manager and the system he plays can leave people exposed but despite his failings, it doesn't stop quality players like Sanchez and Cazorla from showing their quality. It's the same to how I feel when seeing Cesc, RVP or Rosicky play for us. Heck, same applies to limited players like Coquelin, Giroud, Welbeck, Walcott, Ramsey...etc.

With Ozil, I can't see what's stopping him from imposing himself on the game. We see it with Sanchez, I'd see it with Rosicky and Cesc....Ozil has the ability to dribble out of tight spaces, yet you never see him use those attributes in the same way you'd see Cazorla do it. Has the ability to pass but rarely see him pull off an amazing pass like we'd often see from Cesc, even at speed he's able to dribble but you'll hardly ever see him do what Hazard did to us today.....

Wenger has to go for sure and he's not helping the situation. Even though I think Wenger has to be the first to go, if we were to get a new manager, I can't see them using Ozil as a number 10. If he churns out a fraction of the performances he has for us, he'll be out on his ear.

[Power n Glory]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCOz9pj3_Ts

Look at the speed and dribbling ability. This is what I don't get, how is a player with this sort of speed and dribbling ability getting away with 0/1 successful takes ons? 1 attempt to dribble past a player! 1 unsuccessful attempt. Petr Cech and Mustafi were 1/1 for take ons for fucks sakes. Coquelin 2/2. Ox 4/4. Sanchez 5/7.

It's not just the one game either. Ozil will often attempt 1 or 2 dribble attempts per game. A guy of this sort of ability! It's not enough and he's coasting. The epitome of pass, pass, pass.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCOz9pj3_Ts

Look at the speed and dribbling ability. This is what I don't get, how is a player with this sort of speed and dribbling ability getting away with 0/1 successful takes ons? 1 attempt to dribble past a player! 1 unsuccessful attempt. Petr Cech and Mustafi were 1/1 for take ons for fucks sakes. Coquelin 2/2. Ox 4/4. Sanchez 5/7.

It's not just the one game either. Ozil will often attempt 1 or 2 dribble attempts per game. A guy of this sort of ability! It's not enough and he's coasting. The epitome of pass, pass, pass.

There are two realistic possibilities and both of them are the fault of one man.

1. Wenger has changed Ozil's game, very much for the worse.
2. Ozil has realised you don't need to turn up or make an effort to get into the first team at Arsenal. It's not actually true he doesn't turn up or make an effort, that's just a media narrative that started almost the day he arrived with the stupid #stealingaliving tag that somehow has never been applied to Raheem Sterling, for example (and you won't find a more worthy candidate in football). Ozil runs more yards a game than most, makes more passes a game than most and gets involved more than most. But his effectiveness has been badly blunted this season and the question is why.

For me the answer is very, very obvious.

[Power n Glory]

It's option 2. He's lazy. Despite the amount of times Ox and Sanchez try to dribble and lose the ball, it doesn't stop them from trying. Hence why I have a problem with Ozil. Yes, he's stealing a leaving.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's option 2. He's lazy. Despite the amount of times Ox and Sanchez try to dribble and lose the ball, it doesn't stop them from trying. Hence why I have a problem with Ozil. Yes, he's stealing a leaving.

Only problem is, the numbers tell us he's one of the hardest working players in the squad.

[mastermind84]

Should we create this thread for Alexis as well? He was terrible yesterday.


He shouldn't be the 3rd midfielder tho. Ozil is a forward.

[Power n Glory]

Only problem is, the numbers tell us he's one of the hardest working players in the squad.

Oh so maybe Wenger's stat machine is right.

I didn't say anything about the amount of ground he covers. I'm talking specifically about the amount of times he attempts to dribble past an opponent in each match. He chooses to pass despite having the ability to open play up with his dribbling. Blame it on Wenger if you wish, but it doesn't add up because we see how often Alexis will attempt to take on his man even when passing would be a better option.

[Power n Glory]

Should we create this thread for Alexis as well? He was terrible yesterday.


He shouldn't be the 3rd midfielder tho. Ozil is a forward.

Go ahead.

[mastermind84]

Only problem is, the numbers tell us he's one of the hardest working players in the squad.

Why respond to someone who believes in alternative facts?

[Power n Glory]

Why respond to someone who believes in alternative facts?


:doh: This isn't a debate about how much ground he covers or general defensive work. It's a question of why he doesn't attempt to take on more players when he's probably one of the most gifted at dribbling in the squad.

[Niall_Quinn]

:doh: This isn't a debate about how much ground he covers or general defensive work. It's a question of why he doesn't attempt to take on more players when he's probably one of the most gifted at dribbling in the squad.

Erm no. You said he's stealing a living. Prior to that you picked option 2, he's lazy. So it has a great deal to do with how much effort the player puts in. Whether that effort is effective, that's another matter. But anyone who thinks Ozil is stealing a living (beyond the obvious fact ALL PL players are stealing a living in comparative terms) isn't paying attention to the numbers.

[Power n Glory]

Erm no. You said he's stealing a living. Prior to that you picked option 2, he's lazy. So it has a great deal to do with how much effort the player puts in. Whether that effort is effective, that's another matter. But anyone who thinks Ozil is stealing a living (beyond the obvious fact ALL PL players are stealing a living in comparative terms) isn't paying attention to the numbers.


No, in context of what we are talking. Effort in regards to making use of all of his attributes. Precisely his ability to dribble and you're purposely deflecting. It's funny how you make fun of Wenger when he relies on stats and now doing the exact same.

[Niall_Quinn]

No, in context of what we are talking. Effort in regards to making use of all of his attributes. Precisely his ability to dribble and you're purposely deflecting. It's funny how you make fun of Wenger when he relies on stats and now doing the exact same.

No I'm not deflecting anything. You are reflecting.

I proposed 2 options and you picked the one that stated Ozil was lazy. You made no doubt about your intent by adding the stealing a living qualifier. My first option was Wenger has fucked Ozil's game up but you didn't go for that one. That's the one that might have dealt with dribbling and other attributes. Instead you decided it's down to him being lazy. I said the numbers don't show that. You then accused me of being like Wenger. That's how this has gone down. The record is right there. Deflecting nothing.

[Power n Glory]

No I'm not deflecting anything. You are reflecting.

I proposed 2 options and you picked the one that stated Ozil was lazy. You made no doubt about your intent by adding the stealing a living qualifier. My first option was Wenger has fucked Ozil's game up but you didn't go for that one. That's the one that might have dealt with dribbling and other attributes. Instead you decided it's down to him being lazy. I said the numbers don't show that. You then accused me of being like Wenger. That's how this has gone down. The record is right there. Deflecting nothing.

Which brings us back to the question of why Sanchez and Ox dribble and Wenger hasn't altered their game? The contradiction in your theory is either Wenger gives the players too much freedom or he complete restricts them. Which is it?

[Niall_Quinn]

Which brings us back to the question of why Sanchez and Ox dribble and Wenger hasn't altered their game? The contradiction in your theory is either Wenger gives the players too much freedom or he complete restricts them. Which is it?

Not quite sure where all this dribbling business has come from. But are we now saying we don't need Ozil because he doesn't dribble enough? I'm just trying to keep track of your argument. One minute we hear Ozil doesn't turn up. Then we hear he's stealing a living. Now the problem is he doesn't dribble. Which is fine, because if that's the case I'm quickly going to say absolutely no, we shouldn't get rid of Ozil because he's not dribbling the ball enough. He does plenty of other things that we can't afford to be without right now, such as actually being able to keep possession of a football which is a rare commodity in the squad right now.

As for Wenger and Alexis' and Ox's games, well Wenger has change them of course. Alexis had until recently been moved to the striker role, and should still be there, and Ox had recently been moved into a central role. These things have worked, which makes you wonder why Wenger dumped Alexis for Giroud and why Ramsey ever got the nod over Ox. Probably because Wenger is incompetent. And this remains my argument. Option 1. Wenger is a moron. His shitty ideas on how we should play means we aren't getting the best out of any of the players.

I'm sticking with that too because it's what all the evidence points to.

[RomfordPele]

There are two realistic possibilities and both of them are the fault of one man.

1. Wenger has changed Ozil's game, very much for the worse.
2. Ozil has realised you don't need to turn up or make an effort to get into the first team at Arsenal. It's not actually true he doesn't turn up or make an effort, that's just a media narrative that started almost the day he arrived with the stupid #stealingaliving tag that somehow has never been applied to Raheem Sterling, for example (and you won't find a more worthy candidate in football). Ozil runs more yards a game than most, makes more passes a game than most and gets involved more than most. But his effectiveness has been badly blunted this season and the question is why.

For me the answer is very, very obvious.

There's a third option. That Ozil can only really deliver with the right players around him, and can't function effectively without smart players backing him up. Hence his persistent no-shows in the big games.

Not his fault, I realise (there's only so much you can do with Theo running into blind alleys and giroud doing his lamppost routine) but it perhaps suggests he wasn't the priority when we had £40-odd million burning a hole in our pockets and a gaping chasm in our midfield.

[Power n Glory]

Not quite sure where all this dribbling business has come from. But are we now saying we don't need Ozil because he doesn't dribble enough? I'm just trying to keep track of your argument. One minute we hear Ozil doesn't turn up. Then we hear he's stealing a living. Now the problem is he doesn't dribble. Which is fine, because if that's the case I'm quickly going to say absolutely no, we shouldn't get rid of Ozil because he's not dribbling the ball enough. He does plenty of other things that we can't afford to be without right now, such as actually being able to keep possession of a football which is a rare commodity in the squad right now.

As for Wenger and Alexis' and Ox's games, well Wenger has change them of course. Alexis had until recently been moved to the striker role, and should still be there, and Ox had recently been moved into a central role. These things have worked, which makes you wonder why Wenger dumped Alexis for Giroud and why Ramsey ever got the nod over Ox. Probably because Wenger is incompetent. And this remains my argument. Option 1. Wenger is a moron. His shitty ideas on how we should play means we aren't getting the best out of any of the players.

I'm sticking with that too because it's what all the evidence points to.

This is exceptional. :lol: You talk on other threads about the 'modern player' lacking respect and slacking off but here with the clearest example of what Ozil would do for Madrid compared to his performances for us and you have nothing but excuses. Even turning to a Wenger old favourite about stats despite what your eyes tell you. It shouldn't be hard to work out why I like Alexis as a player but have a problem when someone as talented as Ozil isn't making use of his talent.

[Power n Glory]

There's a third option. That Ozil can only really deliver with the right players around him, and can't function effectively without smart players backing him up. Hence his persistent no-shows in the big games.

Not his fault, I realise (there's only so much you can do with Theo running into blind alleys and giroud doing his lamppost routine) but it perhaps suggests he wasn't the priority when we had £40-odd million burning a hole in our pockets and a gaping chasm in our midfield.

I once thought that but how can Ozil's ability to dribble be effected by the players around him? It's not even a case of him not being all that successful at it, he's hardly making an attempt.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is exceptional. :lol: You talk on other threads about the 'modern player' lacking respect and slacking off but here with the clearest example of what Ozil would do for Madrid compared to his performances for us and you have nothing but excuses. Even turning to a Wenger old favourite about stats despite what your eyes tell you. It shouldn't be hard to work out why I like Alexis as a player but have a problem when someone as talented as Ozil isn't making use of his talent.

Well you keep changing the subject, so the discussion meanders along with it. Look, it's no secret you have some sort of agenda that singles out Ozil. That's blatantly obvious. But the question is, do we need him? Yes of course we do. We have 2, perhaps 3 world class players. Ozil is one of them. On form, off form, whether he's played, whether he's dropped, all different issues. Do we need him? Simple answer, yes. Complex answer, yes. And even if we suddenly freed up 200 mill to buy more world class talent in, do we still need Ozil? Yes. Because we want all our players to be world class in an ideal world.

There's only one person in this thread trying to find every possible angle to make a case. Ain't me.

[mastermind84]

:doh: This isn't a debate about how much ground he covers or general defensive work. It's a question of why he doesn't attempt to take on more players when he's probably one of the most gifted at dribbling in the squad.
Sounding very Kellyanne Conway.

[Power n Glory]

Sounding very Kellyanne Conway.

:good:

[Power n Glory]

Well you keep changing the subject, so the discussion meanders along with it. Look, it's no secret you have some sort of agenda that singles out Ozil. That's blatantly obvious. But the question is, do we need him? Yes of course we do. We have 2, perhaps 3 world class players. Ozil is one of them. On form, off form, whether he's played, whether he's dropped, all different issues. Do we need him? Simple answer, yes. Complex answer, yes. And even if we suddenly freed up 200 mill to buy more world class talent in, do we still need Ozil? Yes. Because we want all our players to be world class in an ideal world.

There's only one person in this thread trying to find every possible angle to make a case. Ain't me.

Are you slow? You're able to work out what's being said. Cut the crap.

[Power n Glory]

Some agenda? Of course I have an agenda. I want all of our players toplay to the maximum of their potential. Maximum effort even if it's under a flawed manager. Is that not what you want?

[Niall_Quinn]

Are you slow? You're able to work out what's being said. Cut the crap.

What is it you need to hear? Agreement? I already said I don't agree with you. I said why I don't agree with you. And you haven't presented anything that encourages me to agree with you. My answer remains, yes, we need Ozil. I also stated I don't think he's a lazy player, because the numbers bear that out. I said he's a world class player, the best in the PL, and your video supports that opinion. I said he should be criticised if he's not playing to his maximum potential, but I also said every player suffers from not playing to their maximum potential. I gave the opinion that it's Wenger's fault the team isn't realising its potential. I stated, a while back, there are plenty of players we should look at before we start talking about getting rid of Ozil.

You show a video of Ozil setting the world on fire in a team stuffed with excellent players and managed by a competent person. Why do you feel Ozil should be playing the same way in a ramshackle mess of a system managed by an incompetent person? Nobody has been able to get our shitty system to work. We had Fabregas, RvC, Arshavin, Adebayor, a whole stack of talented players who tried to drag this team through to some sort of success and then gave up because it's futile. Maybe if you said it looks like Ozil has turfed it in I would agree. That's what I said myself in the last couple of match threads. Is it a good sign of character that his efforts have dropped? Nope. Is it time to sell him? Why? When the problem is the idiot who is constantly working against the whole team? Get rid of the idiot first and then reevaluate all the players, that's what I suggested. Seems like a sane position.

Who are you getting in if you chuck Ozil out? Somebody else who will try harder to overcome the handicap of Wenger? Who would that be? You said Fabregas would be a better option but in the end he wanted out? You yourself say you understand why RvC pissed off. So who will be the magic bullet that comes in and drives a transformation? I've often said even Messi wouldn't make a difference because the the task is just too big. The alternative is to get rid of players like Ozil and just let the quality of the squad ebb away. How does that help us?

No, whichever way I look at it I can't see any advantage to getting rid of Ozil. And you haven't given me anything even remotely convincing to change my view. Particularly this idea that Ozil has had 0/1 dribbles therefore is stealing a living.

The real issue here is we're flat track bullies. Our big players turn up against small opposition because that's all we can handle as a team. Wenger's tactics and planning are always shit but against a lesser opponent the individuals in our team can overcome and conquer. Carry the same handicap into the big games against the big opponents and the mountain is too tall to climb, especially while pushing a rock up it.

Wenger's got to go, not Ozil.

[Power n Glory]

You show a video of Ozil setting the world on fire in a team stuffed with excellent players and managed by a competent person. Why do you feel Ozil should be playing the same way in a ramshackle mess of a system managed by an incompetent person? Nobody has been able to get our shitty system to work. We had Fabregas, RvC, Arshavin, Adebayor, a whole stack of talented players who tried to drag this team through to some sort of success and then gave up because it's futile.

That's not true. The players you mentioned couldn't win more because of the shitty system but they were still able to show their qualities. Their maximum wasn't enough to compensate for a poor manager but poor management couldn't blunt their natural ability. Cesc was still able to pass and score wherever he went and the same goes for RVP. The core of what they were hadn't changed. Look at their videos for Man Utd or Chelsea and the same hallmarks they show there you can see when they were here at Arsenal. With Ozil, he looks a different player to what he was at Madrid. He's not taking as many risks and it's safety first.

We'll agree to disagree on this one. He hasn't shown his full potential at Arsenal and I think we'd be mugs to bend over backwards to try and keep him. I still want Wenger out. Don't confuse the issue. But if you're going to reference modern players showing disrespect, I think Ozil is up there with the Chelsea and City players did last season if he's not putting his all into the game just because our manager is a soft touch.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

As a third midfielder in a tighter trio Cesc is probably a better player but as a number 10 in a 4231 then Ozil is preferable.

[Xhaka Can’t]

That's not true. The players you mentioned couldn't win more because of the shitty system but they were still able to show their qualities. Their maximum wasn't enough to compensate for a poor manager but poor management couldn't blunt their natural ability. Cesc was still able to pass and score wherever he went and the same goes for RVP. The core of what they were hadn't changed. Look at their videos for Man Utd or Chelsea and the same hallmarks they show there you can see when they were here at Arsenal. With Ozil, he looks a different player to what he was at Madrid. He's not taking as many risks and it's safety first.

We'll agree to disagree on this one. He hasn't shown his full potential at Arsenal and I think we'd be mugs to bend over backwards to try and keep him. I still want Wenger out. Don't confuse the issue. But if you're going to reference modern players showing disrespect, I think Ozil is up there with the Chelsea and City players did last season if he's not putting his all into the game just because our manager is a soft touch.

https://www.biography.com/.image/c_fill,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTIwNjA4NjMzNzczOTE3NzA4/bill-clinton-9251236-1-402.jpg
It's the manager, stupid!

[selassie]

I think we are all disagreeing over semantics here. Ozil is a very good player, a world class number 10 in the RIGHT system or when a system is actually implemented!

The issue here is that he along with most players in the team don't function or play to their highest level. There is no real structure or defined style applied to the team, it's absolutely bonkers and to be honest...we are where we are through individual talent, not through any kind of logical system.

This team lacks a heart, leadership and identity.

Of course with Ozil, it is up to him to put in a shift and take responsibility but until the fundamental flaws are addressed within this team Ozil will continue to churn out sub-standard performances in the big games because he is allowed to get away with it, he is one of Wenger's "untouchables", he is not accountable for his poor performances. Wenger has built a culture at the club where losing is acceptable, he has built a culture where it is OK for players not to take responsibility, the "excuse" making culture, we didn't lose on Saturday because they are a better team than us and have a dedicated system, we lost because of the "illegal" first goal, that is the culture that exists at Arsenal and it stinks to high heaven.

I have absolutely no doubt that with a strong tactical manager we would be challenging for the title, properly challenging, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the quality of our first XI or squad and I believe many players in our team including Ozil would be playing at a higher level.

[mastermind84]

I think we are all disagreeing over semantics here. Ozil is a very good player, a world class number 10 in the RIGHT system or when a system is actually implemented!

The issue here is that he along with most players in the team don't function or play to their highest level. There is no real structure or defined style applied to the team, it's absolutely bonkers and to be honest...we are where we are through individual talent, not through any kind of logical system.

This team lacks a heart, leadership and identity.

Of course with Ozil, it is up to him to put in a shift and take responsibility but until the fundamental flaws are addressed within this team Ozil will continue to churn out sub-standard performances in the big games because he is allowed to get away with it, he is one of Wenger's "untouchables", he is not accountable for his poor performances. Wenger has built a culture at the club where losing is acceptable, he has built a culture where it is OK for players not to take responsibility, the "excuse" making culture, we didn't lose on Saturday because they are a better team than us and have a dedicated system, we lost because of the "illegal" first goal, that is the culture that exists at Arsenal and it stinks to high heaven.

I have absolutely no doubt that with a strong tactical manager we would be challenging for the title, properly challenging, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the quality of our first XI or squad and I believe many players in our team including Ozil would be playing at a higher level.
I wrote something similar to this weeks ago regarding Ozil, Ramsey, and Xhaka. Glory_N_Alternative_Facts still thinks it's all the players.

We have some top class played on this team and Ozil has performed at a higher level than Arsenal in bigger matches than we have played. You cannot accurately judge any of our star players until Wenger is gone. Every problem with our play is down to a guy who has no idea how to organize a team in today's micromanaged tactical world. Wenger is the problem.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Horse manure, you think that because of what Leicester achieved last season that Ranieri is a tactical genius and it wasn't the players giving every sinue of effort to give them the title.

Wenger hasn't got it, we know that.......but the players aren't children and i think they are just as guilty of betraying the manager's trust as he is guilty of misguidedly giving it to them.

Let's not pretend that because Mourinho was a narcissistic arse, that there is not a toxicity in the dressing room caused by players like John Terry who essentially downed tools during his last few months, and it will happen with Conte as well not this season but either next season or the season after that.

[Niall_Quinn]

Horse manure, you think that because of what Leicester achieved last season that Ranieri is a tactical genius and it wasn't the players giving every sinue of effort to give them the title.

Wenger hasn't got it, we know that.......but the players aren't children and i think they are just as guilty of betraying the manager's trust as he is guilty of misguidedly giving it to them.

Let's not pretend that because Mourinho was a narcissistic arse, that there is not a toxicity in the dressing room caused by players like John Terry who essentially downed tools during his last few months, and it will happen with Conte as well not this season but either next season or the season after that.

You can't betray a manager's trust over a period of 10 years. Not unless there is something very, very fucked up with the manager.

[Power n Glory]

I wrote something similar to this weeks ago regarding Ozil, Ramsey, and Xhaka. Glory_N_Alternative_Facts still thinks it's all the players.

We have some top class played on this team and Ozil has performed at a higher level than Arsenal in bigger matches than we have played. You cannot accurately judge any of our star players until Wenger is gone. Every problem with our play is down to a guy who has no idea how to organize a team in today's micromanaged tactical world. Wenger is the problem.

Alternative facts? :doh:

Can anyone explain to me how the heck the system we play stops a player from doing the simplest thing any player can do and track back?

Or something as simple as jumping to defend a header?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwrPA3Z8ie8

Man, if you guys don't knock off this bullshit about the 'system'.... :lol:

When will common sense kick in? If you’re at work and have to contact an important client on deadline day but emails aren’t working, is that an excuse not to work at all? How about picking up the phone? :rolleyes:

As said with Ozil, he’s super talented, has pace, can dribble and pass. Ok, passing isn’t working but seek an alternative way to win the game if you’re truly world class. The best in the world aren’t so easy to stop. What pisses me off more than anything is that he’s one of the few that’s capable. People are often surprised by sudden burst of pace or dribbles because he shows it. Take some initiative. If you’re hammering it out for 80 odd minutes with unsuccessful pass after pass and still losing, when will it the light bulb shine to try something different? It’s the same sort of thing I hammer Arsene Wenger for with his rigid approach. Ozil is one of the few players capable of adapting his play.

Also, no matter how much I can’t stand Wenger as manager it doesn’t mean players can get away with some of the performances we’ve seen. You’ve seen the clips of Sanchez and Ozil walking and not defending against Chelsea. For the Hazard goal we saw similar to what Ramsey pulled against Watford. What has that got to do with the system? It’s inexcusable.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You can't betray a manager's trust over a period of 10 years. Not unless there is something very, very fucked up with the manager.

Well we know that there is, like i say constantly it's not binary. Blaming the players doesn't mean absolving the manager

It means though that these players who have played for us have taken the easy ride offered to them by the manager, and considering what they are paid that's pretty reprehensible.

It also means frankly that even in the slim to nil chance Wenger goes in the summer, so many players would have to follow him out of the door.

Ramsey, Walcott, Cech, Monreal, Ospina, Coquelin probably all need to go.....they reek of capitulation

Ozil doesn't care, yeah a brilliant player but we currently aren't benefiting from having him in the team.

[mastermind84]

Horse manure, you think that because of what Leicester achieved last season that Ranieri is a tactical genius and it wasn't the players giving every sinue of effort to give them the title.

Wenger hasn't got it, we know that.......but the players aren't children and i think they are just as guilty of betraying the manager's trust as he is guilty of misguidedly giving it to them.

Let's not pretend that because Mourinho was a narcissistic arse, that there is not a toxicity in the dressing room caused by players like John Terry who essentially downed tools during his last few months, and it will happen with Conte as well not this season but either next season or the season after that.

I think Raineri a)got lucky with it being a down year b)has always been good tactically based on his past successes c)got Kante d)got good PEDs for his players

I don't think the players are children, but football is won on the margins now. Arsenal are losing on the margins now because Wenger has no idea how to organize a team properly. Our teams have no clue now. the best teams are micromanaged and Wenger is the opposite of that.

I dont care about Mourinho (who is also past it) or Conte. I care about what Im seeing at Arsenal.

[mastermind84]

As said with Ozil, he’s super talented, has pace, can dribble and pass. Ok, passing isn’t working but seek an alternative way to win the game if you’re truly world class. The best in the world aren’t so easy to stop..

yes, you are Alternative Facts.

Hazard was slated for not defending earlier at the Emirates. Killed. He struggled earlier this season.

Conte liberated that from him and told him to stay higher up the pitch. Now Hazard is back to being a killer. Wenger doesn't play to Ozil's strength to help the team. I said it earlier, the man should be used as a forward and not as a 3rd midfielder. He tried it on Saturday but they moved back because no one had an idea how to deal with Pedro. Thats down to Wenger.


Coquelin is a bummy footballer, but Wenger wants him to contribute to our attack. He

[Power n Glory]

yes, you are Alternative Facts.

Hazard was slated for not defending earlier at the Emirates. Killed. He struggled earlier this season.

Conte liberated that from him and told him to stay higher up the pitch. Now Hazard is back to being a killer. Wenger doesn't play to Ozil's strength to help the team. I said it earlier, the man should be used as a forward and not as a 3rd midfielder. He tried it on Saturday but they moved back because no one had an idea how to deal with Pedro. Thats down to Wenger.


Coquelin is a bummy footballer, but Wenger wants him to contribute to our attack. He

Dumbass, what's stopping Ozil from attempting more than one take on in that match? Can he not dribble?

Hazard had 10/10 for take ons. 0/1 for Ozil. Those are the facts. No matter where you play or what instructions you're under, you can at least attempt to dribble out of trouble as Hazard did, as Cazorla often does. It's not even a case of him needing to be liberated from defensive duties. Even if played as a forward, he can't coast and just depend on his passing.

[Niall_Quinn]

Alternative facts? :doh:

Can anyone explain to me how the heck the system we play stops a player from doing the simplest thing any player can do and track back?

Or something as simple as jumping to defend a header?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwrPA3Z8ie8

Man, if you guys don't knock off this bullshit about the 'system'.... :lol:

When will common sense kick in? If you’re at work and have to contact an important client on deadline day but emails aren’t working, is that an excuse not to work at all? How about picking up the phone? :rolleyes:

As said with Ozil, he’s super talented, has pace, can dribble and pass. Ok, passing isn’t working but seek an alternative way to win the game if you’re truly world class. The best in the world aren’t so easy to stop. What pisses me off more than anything is that he’s one of the few that’s capable. People are often surprised by sudden burst of pace or dribbles because he shows it. Take some initiative. If you’re hammering it out for 80 odd minutes with unsuccessful pass after pass and still losing, when will it the light bulb shine to try something different? It’s the same sort of thing I hammer Arsene Wenger for with his rigid approach. Ozil is one of the few players capable of adapting his play.

Also, no matter how much I can’t stand Wenger as manager it doesn’t mean players can get away with some of the performances we’ve seen. You’ve seen the clips of Sanchez and Ozil walking and not defending against Chelsea. For the Hazard goal we saw similar to what Ramsey pulled against Watford. What has that got to do with the system? It’s inexcusable.

Plainly it does mean players can get away with some of the performances we have seen. It's players like Perez who get dropped, or Campbell who get shifted on. The players you complain about are all rolled out week after week. Sounds very much like they are getting away with it.

So we either;

Get rid of them and get some replacements in who will also be allowed to get away with it every week;

Get rid of the guy who let's them get away with it;

Get rid of all of them.

Option 1 is pointless. Option 3 is overkill, because if we got a manager who doesn't let them get away with it then who knows?

So option 2 is logical and leaves an incoming manager with at least the opportunity to see what these players can actually do.

Do we applaud players who don't give their all? Nope. I think comments like, "didn't turn up", "lazy bastards", are a clue into the true feeling when players don't give back something in return for what they take.

But how do we actually go about solving this problem?

We get rid of the guy who is ultimately responsible for the problem and a hundred other problems besides. If we did that today, booted him today, and got a decent manager in then I'd have every hope of this squad breaking into that 12 point gap. But for every game that Wenger remains the situation becomes more hopeless.

The fans are wasting their energy if it is not poured 100% into getting this man out.

[Power n Glory]

Plainly it does mean players can get away with some of the performances we have seen. It's players like Perez who get dropped, or Campbell who get shifted on. The players you complain about are all rolled out week after week. Sounds very much like they are getting away with it.

So we either;

Get rid of them and get some replacements in who will also be allowed to get away with it every week;

Get rid of the guy who let's them get away with it;

Get rid of all of them.

Option 1 is pointless. Option 3 is overkill, because if we got a manager who doesn't let them get away with it then who knows?

So option 2 is logical and leaves an incoming manager with at least the opportunity to see what these players can actually do.

Do we applaud players who don't give their all? Nope. I think comments like, "didn't turn up", "lazy bastards", are a clue into the true feeling when players don't give back something in return for what they take.

But how do we actually go about solving this problem?

We get rid of the guy who is ultimately responsible for the problem and a hundred other problems besides. If we did that today, booted him today, and got a decent manager in then I'd have every hope of this squad breaking into that 12 point gap. But for every game that Wenger remains the situation becomes more hopeless.

The fans are wasting their energy if it is not poured 100% into getting this man out.

So you admit Wenger is letting him coast? If we can get to that sort of acknowledgement than I'm open to discussing the solutions. Just the other day you were saying Ozil's stats prove he works hard. That's the sort of excuse I can't stand. We have videos up of him not jumping to defend that last minute winner and Minormind is talking as if he's too good to jump for the ball. I can't honestly criticise Wenger for making excuses in his lost match interviews and then come on here and listen to the same sort of excuses.

Possible solutions...a new manager first and foremost. Next, Ozil may have to rethink his position as a number 10. Hardly any managers plays the system we play and most players that have Ozil's technical skills operate from deep. Or wide in a forward role like Minormind says. But Ozil has to really adjust his game to play those roles. If further back, he can't be afraid of physical contact. He has to engage, tackle, press and really up his physical game if he's going to be in the thick of things. I doubt he can make that transition and it might not be the best move for such a light player.

As a forward on the wing, it's not as if he can ignore his defensive duties there either. He'll have to chase back because we saw how Chelsea ripped us open. Minormind is wrong about Hazard having no defensive duties. Certainly wasn't the case against us anyway. Also, Ozil has to be more aggressive when approaching the box and take on players. Passing to the nearest open man can't always be the go to option.

Players have to take some responsibility for their game if we've paid serious money for their talent. Just on the other thread you weren't you saying it was the Vieira's and Bergkamp's that helped us win titles despite Wenger's flaws? So what's so different now?

[Niall_Quinn]

So you admit Wenger is letting him coast?

Not at all. I'm testing your argument and showing you how even if what you are saying is true then you only have one real course of remedy. I don't think Ozil coasts at all. I think he works hard yet sometimes terribly ineffectively. Like most of the players in the squad. They have no direction, no discernible tactics to work with, apparently no appreciation of the opposition and given they have no initial plan it stands to reason they have no fallback when things go wrong. I think Ozil "goes missing", like many players in the squad, because when they come up against competent managers and above average opponents the lack of planning and tactics on our part are a handicap too great to overcome, in most cases. Sometimes individual brilliance pulls our arse out of the fire.

I think Cech is a bigger indicator than Ozil. I find it extremely hard to believe Cech has decided to be unprofessional just because he has joined Arsenal. I think he's being handicapped by the general disorganisation in the team, just like other players. Yes, there's no forgiving kicking the ball to the opposition like he did against the chavs. That's a straight mistake. But I think performances and momentum are closely linked and if you have a manager who seems to make it his main aim in life to destroy momentum then the chaos and randomness it injects into what should be a carefully drilled machine is going to cause splutters and backfires. Or handbrakes being left on, if we want to use a Wenger analogy.

Will I concede that Ozil makes infuriating individual mistakes and that sometimes he can be bullied out of a game? Yes, that seems to be fair. I also say that there's a different refereeing standard for us, and I know people will say knock it off, it all evens out. That's not what I see. But yes, he can be bullied, no doubt about it and if I question him it's on that basis. Is he tough enough for this league? Shame that such a talented player has to worry about being kicked around the place, but that's the reality of this pub league. I think he tried to toughen up at the start of last season but didn't carry it through and is now looking a bit lightweight again. I'd like to see him get a nice red card for going straight through the back of some Utd scumbag like Fellaini or Rooney. I think that would do him the world of good. Really fuck them up badly, so the next dirty cunt who steps out against him has something to think about.

Yes, I'm totally up for a new manager coming in, taking a look at not just Ozil but everyone and saying let's change that. In fact it would be awful if that didn't happen. Some Wenger stooge coming in and keeping everything the same, and it's not inconceivable that's precisely what we'll get.

Players do indeed have to take responsibility for their performances. But I have said it before, if you get a bad choreographer then even the best dancers on the planet will put on a bad show. It's not because they are bad dancers, it's because they were asked to dance badly.

[mastermind84]

Dumbass, what's stopping Ozil from attempting more than one take on in that match? Can he not dribble?

Hazard had 10/10 for take ons. 0/1 for Ozil. Those are the facts. No matter where you play or what instructions you're under, you can at least attempt to dribble out of trouble as Hazard did, as Cazorla often does. It's not even a case of him needing to be liberated from defensive duties. Even if played as a forward, he can't coast and just depend on his passing.

why are you calling me a dumbass?

Where is Ozil receiving the ball? Is he facing our goal or the opponents goal? These are questions you have to answer when you ask a question like "why is he only attempting one dribble a game?" I don't know the answer to that, but watching Ozil for years at Madrid, at Bremen, and for Germany he is not utlized the same way at Arsenal as he was at those other sides. You see this sport through a vacuum and give individual players too much power. This sport is about organization and tactics and the positioning of your teammates and their technical ability. Its even more about it now with the Guardiola influenced football we are seeing now, and which Wenger has not attempted to understand.

Hazard's takeover success proves the point I am making. In the first match at the Emirates, Hazard only completed 1/4 take-ons, also a fact. Conte liberated him and moved him higher up the pitch and created a system to get the best out of him. Wenger has no idea how to get the best out of Ozil, and even Sanchez. On Saturday Sanchez had one touch in the penalty area. Think about that. I have railed against Sanchez's discipline and how he is often anti-structure, but if your tactics Alexis Sanchez only a single touch in the penalty area over 90 minutes then something is terribly wrong with your system or lack thereof.

Like I said earlier in this season, you want Wenger gone but I don't think you know why you want him gone.

[Power n Glory]

Players do indeed have to take responsibility for their performances. But I have said it before, if you get a bad choreographer then even the best dancers on the planet will put on a bad show. It's not because they are bad dancers, it's because they were asked to dance badly.

Yes, a bad show. But does that mean the dancer forgets and looks like they now long know how to pirouette? ;)

I know the course of remedy. That's not what I'm debating. I'm not happy with Wenger's performance as a manger but I'm also unhappy with Ozil. But you're unwilling to concede that Ozil isn't doing more than he can for some reason. The reason why this debate lasts so long because it's met with so much resistance by Arsenal fans. It's a strange one.

[Özim]

I think it boils down to this, some players are self motivated and others need the manager to motivate them, we've all seen struggling sides who sack their manager bring someone better in and display a new vigour, with players looking hungrier, more motivated and generally performing better.

Things are stale under Wenger, players lack motivation and we're seeing this all over the pitch, performance are average and there's a distinct lack of hunger and desire, all comes from the manager I'm afraid, a better manager would transform the side and maybe give them a fresh outlook and bring back that desire that's missing. If players don't respond then they'll be replaced with players who fit in.

Ozil to me clearly looks like he needs someone to give him fresh drive, Wenger isn't the man, but perhaps we can find someone who can, he's undoubtedly very, very talented nobody can doubt that, but he needs the right manager to get the best out of him and perhaps more competition for his place.

[Letters]

I still think a strong captain would do the job too.

[Marc Overmars]

We won't have a strong captain until we have a manager who can deal with the big and sometimes abrasive personalities. Wenger is happy enough with his nice guys.

[Power n Glory]

Kos isn't a strong captain. Quiet as a mouse. I still remember the way he handled that Costa situation. But it comes back to the manager because he picked Merts as captain and Kos as vice.

But either way, we're talking about a 28 year old and a supposed World Class player. I get that some players need motivating but the very best in football are able to motivate themselves. They're able to adapt. That's what makes them world class.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think honestly we've had a strong vociferous captain since Tony Adams

Vieira had his strengths, but he wasn't a shouter or a natural leader, but he was smart enough to compensate for that (for example he would tell Sol Campbell to constantly shout at him if he thought that he wasn't doing a good enough job of protecting the back line)

He had the respect of the players, and even though the captaincy was given to him to stop him from leaving you would see in pre match warm ups that he'd be talking to the players.

Henry wasn't a great captain, he was too much of an individual and you could see him get very frustrated when players couldn't match his abilities.

Gilberto could have been given more time, but actually stripping him of the captaincy and giving it to Gallas was one of the few times Wenger has been ruthless with his decision making. Gallas was vociferous, but clearly a complete prick and unable to inspire people.

Fabregas did ok but was arguably too young.

Van Persie was just another sop to stop him from leaving which he did.

Arteta very smart but not a leader on the pitch

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think honestly we've had a strong vociferous captain since Tony Adams

Vieira had his strengths, but he wasn't a shouter or a natural leader, but he was smart enough to compensate for that (for example he would tell Sol Campbell to constantly shout at him if he thought that he wasn't doing a good enough job of protecting the back line)

He had the respect of the players, and even though the captaincy was given to him to stop him from leaving you would see in pre match warm ups that he'd be talking to the players.

Henry wasn't a great captain, he was too much of an individual and you could see him get very frustrated when players couldn't match his abilities.

Gilberto could have been given more time, but actually stripping him of the captaincy and giving it to Gallas was one of the few times Wenger has been ruthless with his decision making. Gallas was vociferous, but clearly a complete prick and unable to inspire people.

Fabregas did ok but was arguably too young.

Van Persie was just another sop to stop him from leaving which he did.

Arteta very smart but not a leader on the pitch

Possibly Wenger's most shameful moment at the club. One of the most idiotic things he has done, in a catalogue of idiocy.

Read Ollie Holt's piece from this weekend. It really does capture very well where the club and the fans are now. Half the fan base is listening to idiots like Holt and eating it all up. After a decade of this shit any other manager at any other club would be vilified by this stage. Instead it's the job of some fans to cast around for any excuse or alternative scapegoat. Wenger can't cut it and hasn't been able to cut it for years? Easy solution! Get rid of Ozil.

I mean it's laughable. Do anything bar fixing the huge and obvious problem. Blame anyone except the guy who has been fucking it up for the last 13 years.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The issue i have with your argument is that it's not Binary, Wenger being the problem does not vindicate Ozil....and i hate to say it, he's my favourite player at the club because i love how he can see a pass that no-one else can, watching him from an aerial position at the Emirates the guy is a master of geometry.

But he isn't putting in the effort, Wenger is to blame for this but mainly because he hasn't dropped him. He was 25 when he joined us not a young kid, no matter how bad the pre match planning or the lack of tactics....players especially ones of his calibre should have the maturity to stand out and not hide away during matches.

[Power n Glory]

Possibly Wenger's most shameful moment at the club. One of the most idiotic things he has done, in a catalogue of idiocy.

Read Ollie Holt's piece from this weekend. It really does capture very well where the club and the fans are now. Half the fan base is listening to idiots like Holt and eating it all up. After a decade of this shit any other manager at any other club would be vilified by this stage. Instead it's the job of some fans to cast around for any excuse or alternative scapegoat. Wenger can't cut it and hasn't been able to cut it for years? Easy solution! Get rid of Ozil.

I mean it's laughable. Do anything bar fixing the huge and obvious problem. Blame anyone except the guy who has been fucking it up for the last 13 years.

Really? ;) Do you really think that’s what I’m proposing after the many discussions had on the manger? Mate, you do remember our debates years back when it was me telling you the problem was Wenger but you were insistent it was Ivan and Stan that was holding Wenger back. You remember that, right? You’d defend him on daily and deflect the attention away in a similar way to what you’re doing now. The nerve! The majority of what I spent years debating with you, the mangers tactical flaws, him choosing not to spend despite having resources, having a manager more interested in defending the Board’s interests instead of the fans….every point I made back from around 2010 or whenever it was, you are now in full agreement with and are actually more militant than I ever was about wanting Wenger out. You should know better!

[Niall_Quinn]

The idea Ozil is not putting effort in is pure nonsense. The problem is, he's becoming more and more frustrated and he's also appears t have taken a step back physically. But "effort", as measured in this shitty league, is not the problem. He's putting in the required shift but that's all he's doing right now. He's not playing effectively. Then again, neither is anyone else apart from Ox who has suddenly emerged as the most effective player on the pitch. I have a nasty feeling that's because he's fed-up too and has decided to put himself in the shop window. Pure speculation, but it seems odd he's suddenly stepped up when everyone else has disintegrated into chaos. He's the only guy that anyone could realistically point to now and say he's playing well. Nobody else is, particularly the defenders. I've heard people saying Mustafi has been playing well. It's amazing how people confuse rushing around the place like a headless chicken with playing well. Bellerin, Monreal and Gibbs have been atrocious. even Kos is well off his form. Amazingly we've managed to turn Cech into a poor keeper.

This is Wenger. 100%. There are far too many indicators all pointing to the same place. Get rid of him and we get back to a sane platform on which to build individual and team performances. Keep him here and it is pointless judging anything else. Pointless. Like wondering what effect a gnat would have if it landed on the bonnet of a car going over a cliff.

Another thing, all these experts in 4-3-3 and 4-2-1-6-3-7-5.2 formation, or whatever other shit they are on about. That's all they say! They don't ever say WHY these formations would be better or worse. And even if they did, it would be just a different sort of bullshit because it depends who the opposition is. If you are up against the best team on the planet but they are playing a corpse at right back then that's where your plan is focused. Formations, tactics, in game changes, the correct answer is not some automatic and weird formation that mirrors something Pep did, the answer is not "false 9" or any other shitty punditry. The answer is - WHO ARE WE PLAYING? I recall seeing one guy say the problem is we have Plan A, Plan A, and plan A. That's the problem in a nutshell. That's why we can blow teams away and then see a total reversal. Once the opposition have Wenger figured out (and it isn't hard) it then comes down to individuals to try to claw that massive disadvantage back. When they don't do it week in, week out then fans blame them and give Wenger a free ride.

Eventually Wenger will go. When he does we'll see such a transformation at this club it will scarcely be believed. And it will be good, across the board. Because whoever comes in will surely at least pay attention to the basics that Wenger misses every week.

[Niall_Quinn]

Really? ;) Do you really think that’s what I’m proposing after the many discussions had on the manger? Mate, you do remember our debates years back when it was me telling you the problem was Wenger but you were insistent it was Ivan and Stan that was holding Wenger back. You remember that, right? You’d defend him on daily and deflect the attention away in a similar way to what you’re doing now. The nerve! The majority of what I spent years debating with you, the mangers tactical flaws, him choosing not to spend despite having resources, having a manager more interested in defending the Board’s interests instead of the fans….every point I made back from around 2010 or whenever it was, you are now in full agreement with and are actually more militant than I ever was about wanting Wenger out. You should know better!

Has this, or has this not been your main focus over the past months? Ozil this, Ozil that. But in the end it's not even an argument. There's a sane position and an insane position. The former is to rid ourselves of the major problem. The latter is to start ridding ourselves of our best players before tackling the major problem.

Here's a fan.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/11/arsenal-cannot-win-the-premier-league-with-mesut-ozil-in-their-team-claims-phil-neville-6441679/

And it goes all the way back to fat bastards like Martin Samuel and snidey little gits like Neil Ashton and their shitty agendas. StealingALiving.

Some fans have looked at a transfer fee and decided the player it is attached to must compensate for the whole shitfest that has engulfed the club. Is that how it works? A million things can be wrong but it's that one guy who isn't huffing and puffing and doing a Jimmy Bullard impersonation that needs to get canned?

I'll admit where Ozil has fallen short this season (and did it again in the previous post). But I'm not jumping onboard a press agenda and doing the lazy, not trying thing because that narrative is demonstrably false.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Again it all seems to be because the media talking heads are saying it, it has to be demonstrably untrue. Who cares what their motivations/agendas are?, i don't watch Sunday Supplement, most of the time i don't read what John Cross, Martin Samuel et al have to say because i don't care.....if i can motivate myself to watch games i don't listen to the pre/post match punditry, I haven't watched match of the day in years so in that respect I have no idea what they think about Ozil in the first place.

Wenger's lack of tactical nous, lack of motivational ability i am sure contributes to Ozil looking disinterested on the pitch, but i repeat a player of his calibre shouldn't need Daddy draping an arm around his shoulder telling him what he needs to do. I love Ozil as a player i really do, there have been times where it's a privilege to watch him play.

But he has been consistently one of the most underperforming players in the side for two-three months now, and that's because he's always in the side no matter how badly he performs. If Wenger's shortcomings were affecting him that badly wouldn't he be going out of his way to push himself if only to put himself in the shop window, as much as i think Van Persie is a scumbag for going to United.....there was certainly no dropping of his level when he stayed fit

And Sanchez has poor games mainly because he is being shoved out wide left by Wenger, but the games where you can say this guy isn't trying are very few and far between.

Would a better manager be getting more out of Ozil?....probably but we are stuck with what we are stuck with, and arguably whoever is the coach we have to question the motivations of a player who only seems to want to up his game when he feels like it. Reminding me currently of a much more expensive and more talented Laurent Robert.

[Power n Glory]

@NQ

I'm certain if Ozil was some unknown player you never heard of you wouldn't be cutting him so much slack. You're caught up in the press hype for sure.

So it's ok to discuss Walcott, Giroud, Coquelin, Ramsey and Mert's position in the team and limitations but not Ozil's? Why because you say he's world class?

It's best you steer clear of these conversations if you don't respect the tactical side of things. You're in no position to talk about Wenger's tactical flaws or team selection if you've got this sort of mentality.


Another thing, all these experts in 4-3-3 and 4-2-1-6-3-7-5.2 formation, or whatever other shit they are on about. That's all they say! They don't ever say WHY these formations would be better or worse.

Why has Ozil fallen short this season? From your perspective, why are you now saying that?

[Niall_Quinn]

@NQ

I'm certain if Ozil was some unknown player you never heard of you wouldn't be cutting him so much slack. You're caught up in the press hype for sure.

So it's ok to discuss Walcott, Giroud, Coquelin, Ramsey and Mert's position in the team and limitations but not Ozil's? Why because you say he's world class?

It's best you steer clear of these conversations if you don't respect the tactical side of things. You're in no position to talk about Wenger's tactical flaws or team selection if you've got this sort of mentality.



Why has Ozil fallen short this season? From your perspective, why are you now saying that?

I'm caught up in it? I think you are mistaking me with the Nevilles and Samuels and Ashtons that share YOUR opinion.

And don't be changing your argument mid-stream. "Ozil - Do we need him? I really don’t rate him as a playmaker and won’t lose any sleep if he leaves."

Why has Ozil fallen short?

It's incredible. Wenger provides another shit show of a season, virtually all the players fail to turn up and the question is... Why has Ozil fallen short?

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say for the same reason the rest of the team has fallen short. The idiot at the helm with his tip, tap bullshit and his "backs to goal" counter and his "only turn up for 45 minutes" energy plan and his total disregard for the opposition. Or put another way, I'd say it's for the same reason ALL of Wenger's post-Invincible teams have failed.

Solution? Get rid of Ozil?

The real question is why you are so determined to defend a non-starter of an argument.

We have 2 world class players for a new guy to start with, if Wenger ever leaves. Just forget about things improving while Wenger is here. Player changes, tactical changes, when was the last time that made any difference? In the last decade? When? Every single upturn in fortunes came about through sheer luck, circumstances forced on Wenger. He hasn't made a choice in 10 years that has moved this team an inch forward. So explain to me how getting rid of Ozil and replacing him with X, Y or Z is going to make a blind bit of difference?

At least with Ozil in the team you have somebody who can pass more than 2 yards sideways. Somebody who can do simple stuff like trap a ball. In case you haven't noticed, these very basic skills have deserted many of our players. So you want to take one area of quality that can sometime overcome the manager's sabotage? Why? Because you see 42million (Mustafi was how much?) and think this is it, he'll do it all by himself? And when he doesn't then it's time to make up stuff about him not trying and not being interested - okay so nobody claims to have been influenced by the media and yet it is the exact same bullshit they are pushing. Coincidence.

If you want to say Ozil's form has dropped off from earlier in the season then I don't disagree with that. If you want to say he looks a bit lightweight in terms of physical strength I'm okay with that too. But the lazy, doesn't care BS. No evidence of that whatsoever. Not a shred. All manufactured from the day he arrived by a bullshit media that has stuck to the same crap regardless of how he plays.

You go even further. Get rid. Don't need him. It's just silliness. We need more like him. It's a disgrace we only have 2 world class players in a stadium that was supposed to be a theatre for our ambitions as a top fight European club. But if 2 is all we have then let's bloody make sure we hang on to them in the hope somebody with half a clue can come in and use them.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

In all honesty i'd want him to stay to see if he will perform better under a better manager, but i don't necessarily buy that that's a given.

I don't in anyway question his ability, but sometimes players are wasters of their own talent and Ozil could simply be one of those.

In the past i have found the criticism of him on here a bit overblown, but frankly these last few months have caused me to re-assess that view.

I think it's a lazy criticism to say people are just influenced by the media rather than what they see with their own eyes, even if i can't be bothered to watch the matches live i tend to watch the full match again at some point and what you can see in Ozil is a player who gives up as soon as something doesn't immediately go his way, not getting angry or swearing the way he might have done last season....just shrugging his shoulders almost if he's dispossessed....that's not a confidence thing it's disinterest. And my argument is that if he really wants out of Wenger's fiefdom he'd put himself in the shop window with displays he is more than capable of, but frankly if anything i think he is more likely to stay than Sanchez if Wenger stays, to keep himself in an environment where he doesn't have to push or apply himself....very comfortable.

Again i think it's Wenger's fault, because he hasn't dropped Ozil....would that motivate him?......who knows.