Ozil - Do we need him?

[Marc Overmars]

Ozil is a fairweather. Supremely talented but we've seen enough highs and lows from him now to know he's likely to have just as many bad games as good. Now you can say that for most of our team but you can't hold Ozil up on a pedestal as world class then claim the rest of the team should be pulling their weight too if it's not working out for him, if he is truly as good as we think then expectation rightly comes with that.

[Niall_Quinn]

In all honesty i'd want him to stay to see if he will perform better under a better manager, but i don't necessarily buy that that's a given.

I don't in anyway question his ability, but sometimes players are wasters of their own talent and Ozil could simply be one of those.

In the past i have found the criticism of him on here a bit overblown, but frankly these last few months have caused me to re-assess that view.

I think it's a lazy criticism to say people are just influenced by the media rather than what they see with their own eyes, even if i can't be bothered to watch the matches live i tend to watch the full match again at some point and what you can see in Ozil is a player who gives up as soon as something doesn't immediately go his way, not getting angry or swearing the way he might have done last season....just shrugging his shoulders almost if he's dispossessed....that's not a confidence thing it's disinterest. And my argument is that if he really wants out of Wenger's fiefdom he'd put himself in the shop window with displays he is more than capable of, but frankly if anything i think he is more likely to stay than Sanchez if Wenger stays, to keep himself in an environment where he doesn't have to push or apply himself....very comfortable.

Again i think it's Wenger's fault, because he hasn't dropped Ozil....would that motivate him?......who knows.

This is how Wenger is going to get his new contract, with every little distraction from the main issue.

Here's the guy who is allegedly not pulling his weight.
http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2016/2017/mesut_özil/641/641/123/0/p|premier_league/2016/2017/alexis_sánchez/641/641/1581/0/p|premier_league/2016/2017/francis_coquelin/641/641/380/0/p|premier_league/2016/2017/theo_walcott/641/641/79/0/p|premier_league/2016/2017/granit_xhaka/641/641/2103/0/p#total_score/attack_score/defence_score/possession_score/total_passes/successful_passes/key_passes/assists/chances_created/goals_scored/total_shots/successful_take_ons_%/total_duels_%#90

Stats might not tell the whole story, but they can be used to dismiss a few of the myths that have built up around certain players. Because, as we all know, Ozil is lazy and Xhaka was a waste of money.

Coincidentally, I'm sure, these are two players who arrived here to a deluge of media bullshit. Mr StealingALiving and Mr Undisciplined. Both myths sold it seems. Ozil bests even Alexis in personal duels (not bad for a player not trying) and Xhaka has fewer yellows than Coquelin and Alexis. If you remove the two reds that were awarded under the special Xhaka Rule (a rule no doubt energised by media bullshit) he doesn't have a bad record at all. And obviously he's a considerably better player than Coquelin, although I'm sure some people would even argue that's not the case.

Sorry, not buying the lazy Ozil line for a minute. It's pure invention.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well to be fair, i think Xhaka has been judged prematurely.....we could have done with one of his vicious spiteful lunges on Eden Hazard, i think the red card against Swansea was ridiculous absolutely absurd, but i don't think he could complain too much about the one against Burnley.

I think his passing and tackling can be quite good, however.....yeah i think he was diabolical against both Everton and Man City.

Of course he's better than Coquelin, Coquelin is a bit of a one trick pony.....but again there's a difference between ability and effort.

Statistically this season we have won every game when Coquelin hasn't played

Whether you want to buy the Ozil is lazy line or not is irrelevant, it's abundantly clear he's not producing what he's capable of and there are plenty of examples of players being able to do that despite the manacle of Wenger....and i think ultimately when you know you will get picked no matter what he has decided there is no incentive for him to up his game.

[Power n Glory]

Ozil is a fairweather. Supremely talented but we've seen enough highs and lows from him now to know he's likely to have just as many bad games as good. Now you can say that for most of our team but you can't hold Ozil up on a pedestal as world class then claim the rest of the team should be pulling their weight too if it's not working out for him, if he is truly as good as we think then expectation rightly comes with that.

Thank you. I hear people talk of Coquelin being one dimensional and limited, he's only able to defend but can't pass well but apoly the same argument to Ozil being one dimensional and the excuses come out as of he should be exempt from defending, scoring more goals..etc. It's frustrating watching Ozil because he's capable of so much more.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well to be fair, i think Xhaka has been judged prematurely.....we could have done with one of his vicious spiteful lunges on Eden Hazard, i think the red card against Swansea was ridiculous absolutely absurd, but i don't think he could complain too much about the one against Burnley.

I think his passing and tackling can be quite good, however.....yeah i think he was diabolical against both Everton and Man City.

Of course he's better than Coquelin, Coquelin is a bit of a one trick pony.....but again there's a difference between ability and effort.

Statistically this season we have won every game when Coquelin hasn't played

Whether you want to buy the Ozil is lazy line or not is irrelevant, it's abundantly clear he's not producing what he's capable of and there are plenty of examples of players being able to do that despite the manacle of Wenger....and i think ultimately when you know you will get picked no matter what he has decided there is no incentive for him to up his game.

Okay, but these are different issues now. Wenger's blind favouritism we also know about.

If Ozil was a standout problem then it's fair to single him out, but that's far from being the case. There are plenty of players underperforming in this team (and squad) and all through the last decade there have been plenty of players performing below their potential in an Arsenal shirt. Occasionally (very, very occasionally) one player has managed to stand out and singlehandedly drag the team beyond Wenger's desperate lack of ambition. RvC (for most of a season), Alexis (for part of a season). Not Ozil, that's true. But also not Walcott. Not Giroud. Not Ox. Not ..., fill in whatever name you want. Fill in whatever price tag you want. And in the end, not even RvC's genuinely remarkable final season nor Alexis' purple patches have pulled us closer to a title challenge because the Wenger effect is so massive and all encompassing. The real complaint here seems to be hey, we paid a lot so now get out there and singlehandedly drag us beyond Wenger's lack of ambition. No luck there, so let's get rid of the whole team because they are just as guilty of failing to produce near on miracles.

It's the same old shit and it's the same old culprit. Here's Fabregas from 7 years ago. The article could have been written today and would still be valid on every point.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1340098/Cesc-Fabregas-admits-Arsenal-bottle-big-games.html

Here's Ozil getting as frustrated as Fabregas.
https://www.dreamteamfc.com/c/watch-mesut-ozil-screams-alexis-sanchez-not-apologising-arsenal-fans/

Seven years between and not a damn thing has changed. This is intolerable and we really could chuck out the whole team and get a new one in and it wouldn't make the slightest difference. We would still be relying on individuals to produce those rare displays that somehow drag us out of the Wenger black hole, but worse, we'd be relying on them at a frequency we haven't seen since we had a team so packed full of fabulous players that even Wenger couldn't derail them.

I think it's fair to criticise players when they play poorly or don't put the effort in - which is why you'll see many comments good and bad about Ozil (and other players) in the match threads. But this new fashion to single Ozil out is a joke. A counterproductive joke too. There's a difference between saying, he played badly today, to getting on a player's case every week no matter how he plays.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ozil is a player of superlative talent who is ducking out, I think there's a case he deserves to be singled out or at the very least when you have that much talent and it's not on show it shows far more glaringly than it does with players of lesser ability.

And I'm glad you've made the case for Fabregas, as I do think he definitely downed tools in his last season with Arsenal. Was he within his right to move on when it was abundantly clear that all he'd ever be was a big fish in a small pond at the fiefdom of Wenger yes, but at the same time it pisses me off immensely when such gifted players just can't be fucked to make the effort.

As I've said constantly it's not an either or, it's not Wenger or the players. Wenger casts a long shadow and for those players who are good but not great it's hard to emerge from it, but Fabregas, Van Persie, Ozil and Sanchez are exceptional players two put in the graft and bring their best onto the field, two have the reputation of letting games pass them by.

The game is repleat with examples of this, one of my favourite players from 15+ years ago was Alvaro Recoba, had the ability to single handedly change games in Inters favour, but the guy was a prick and clearly only turned up when he fancied it......and this is why a lot of his appearances were made from the bench.

[mastermind84]

English football media is very lazy and offer nothing but subjective cliches to make their points because most of John and Jane Q Public like subjective cliches.

That's the irony when you read what a Gary Neville, or Oliver Holt, or John Cross or the MOTD team says. They are the laziest people out there and yet they tell everyone these players need to work hard and play hard, etc.

I really wish people in the English sports media actually watched football instead of having their pre-written stories.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Again it all seems to be because the media talking heads are saying it, it has to be demonstrably untrue. Who cares what their motivations/agendas are?, i don't watch Sunday Supplement, most of the time i don't read what John Cross, Martin Samuel et al have to say because i don't care.....if i can motivate myself to watch games i don't listen to the pre/post match punditry, I haven't watched match of the day in years so in that respect I have no idea what they think about Ozil in the first place.

Wenger's lack of tactical nous, lack of motivational ability i am sure contributes to Ozil looking disinterested on the pitch, but i repeat a player of his calibre shouldn't need Daddy draping an arm around his shoulder telling him what he needs to do. I love Ozil as a player i really do, there have been times where it's a privilege to watch him play.

But he has been consistently one of the most underperforming players in the side for two-three months now, and that's because he's always in the side no matter how badly he performs. If Wenger's shortcomings were affecting him that badly wouldn't he be going out of his way to push himself if only to put himself in the shop window, as much as i think Van Persie is a scumbag for going to United.....there was certainly no dropping of his level when he stayed fit

And Sanchez has poor games mainly because he is being shoved out wide left by Wenger, but the games where you can say this guy isn't trying are very few and far between.

Would a better manager be getting more out of Ozil?....probably but we are stuck with what we are stuck with, and arguably whoever is the coach we have to question the motivations of a player who only seems to want to up his game when he feels like it. Reminding me currently of a much more expensive and more talented Laurent Robert.

I don't even know how half the people on here keep up with the entirety of tripe put out by every facet of the media much less be affronted by it all. A lot of the stuff I see on this board is my first time of seeing it at all. Perhaps it's because I don't share the social media obsession most people do but I am surprised by just how much of it people keep up with.

Without wading too much into this very extended Ozil debate I have come to the conclusion that he is not the sort of player that is going to drag a poor/mediocre or low on form team out of their funk.....but he is the type to really make the qualities of a top team count.

Unfortunately for him...when you are as talented as he is....you don't get points for having the vision and ideas he has unless you have the execution to match, so he is rightfully getting a little scrutiny, though he isn't the only one playing badly, clearly.

[Power n Glory]

Why has Ozil fallen short?

It's incredible. Wenger provides another shit show of a season, virtually all the players fail to turn up and the question is... Why has Ozil fallen short?

Wasn't the theory a couple of season back that he wasn't doing well because we needed a better striker? Someone more mobile?

Now that we have that in the team in Sanchez, I would have expected Ozil's performances to hit another level but he's actually gone backwards.

I think the number 10 role is redundant. If the Sanchez as a false 9 is providing the assists as well as scoring, I think a more dominant and aggressive midfielder could make runs in behind the space Sanchez creates, as well as contribute more on defence and distribution.


Without wading too much into this very extended Ozil debate I have come to the conclusion that he is not the sort of player that is going to drag a poor/mediocre or low on form team out of their funk.....but he is the type to really make the qualities of a top team count.

Unfortunately for him...when you are as talented as he is....you don't get points for having the vision and ideas he has unless you have the execution to match, so he is rightfully getting a little scrutiny, though he isn't the only one playing badly, clearly.

Pretty much. This thread was created at the start of the season with that thought in mind. We're not a Real Madrid, but even if we had superstars across the team, losing Ozil wouldn't be a major blow because you have enough stars to pick up the slack or the money to buy a replacement and tinker with the tactics. I think the number 10 is becoming redundant and Ozil will have to adjust his game in the near future.

[Özim]

Would like to see Ozil under a different manager, he was brilliant at Madrid before he arrived, but they utilised him to his strengths, Wenger is incapable of that.

He's world class when on his game, but as mentioned he's not a leader and not a player who will drag his side from certain defeat, not every player is though. We need some leaders and have done for quite some time, that's definitely an issue for us, you do need a handful of players who can lift the rest when it's not happening for the team, Wenger doesn't think so however.

[Power n Glory]

Tactically, what the heck do we do with Ozil under a different manager? Where does he play?

[Power n Glory]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38995112


"Bayern had 74% possession," said Sogut, who is Ozil's lawyer and representative. "How can someone in the No.10 position create chances if you don't have the ball?

"In these games people usually target a player who cost a lot of money and earns a lot of money - that is Mesut. But he can't be always be the scapegoat. That's not fair.

"Football is a team sport and Arsenal are not performing well as a team. Eleven players were on the pitch but Mesut was singled out for criticism. Was he the reason that Arsenal conceded five goals?

"It started before the match, throughout the week leading up to the game. People started discussing: 'Should he play? Should he be dropped?'.

"It was as if everyone knew Arsenal would not make it through and we needed a scapegoat. This is not right. You win as a team and you lose as a team."

'People say he has poor body language but that's how he is'

[fakeyank]

Tactically, what the heck do we do with Ozil under a different manager? Where does he play?

He will play on the Playstation

[mastermind84]

Ozil made 5 tackles yesterday

Coquelin made 0


This is Wengerball 2017

[Marc Overmars]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10787291/mesut-ozil-reveals-jose-mourinho-bust-up-at-real-madrid

Ozil :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10787291/mesut-ozil-reveals-jose-mourinho-bust-up-at-real-madrid

Ozil :lol:

I saw that earlier and was trying to figure out why he'd speak about that now. It plays straight into the narrative he's not giving full effort.

Is he looking to be hounded out? Victim ploy? Or is he pointing out he's been accused of that shit before but has proved his doubters wrong?

Don't know. Hard to tell at a club that is so fundamentally broken.

[Static]

I saw that earlier and was trying to figure out why he'd speak about that now. It plays straight into the narrative he's not giving full effort.

Is he looking to be hounded out? Victim ploy? Or is he pointing out he's been accused of that shit before but has proved his doubters wrong?

Don't know. Hard to tell at a club that is so fundamentally broken.

It was a part of his book.

[Power n Glory]

Any more confirmation needed on this guy?

[AFC Leveller]

There is no way Ozil deserves a new contract. IMO he lacks aggression and fight, he is easily brushed aside and is a passenger in most of the big games. how can he demand 300k a week when he is one of our underachieving players? IMO we should sell him and get a replacement. There are loads of attacking midfielders who would improve us.

The problem is Wenger sees him as some kind of saviour and someone we cant lose. Bollox, Ozil needs to go. How long can you realistically wait for him to come good and produce what he can on a regular basis? he onto his 4th season and has shown zero progress. I remember when Walcott held the club to ransom and was given 100k a week despite being an average player, this canot happen again with Ozil (i know he is a quality player but he doesnt produce enough, nowhere near enough).

[Niall_Quinn]

Careful. I have seen all the usual anti-Ozil stuff this morning. But the "Idiotic team selection by the moron Wenger" articles seem to be missing, along with the "Giroud, WTF" articles. Ozil was one of the better performers on Sunday, which is not to say he performed well, but when you have players like Giroud on the pitch and idiots like Wenger on the touchline it seems strange to be singling out players who at least got involved and have enough technical ability to kick a ball roughly towards a teammate.

[selassie]

Careful. I have seen all the usual anti-Ozil stuff this morning. But the "Idiotic team selection by the moron Wenger" articles seem to be missing, along with the "Giroud, WTF" articles. Ozil was one of the better performers on Sunday, which is not to say he performed well, but when you have players like Giroud on the pitch and idiots like Wenger on the touchline it seems strange to be singling out players who at least got involved and have enough technical ability to kick a ball roughly towards a teammate.

Ozil is part of the problem but not the problem. Like many others in this team he serves no purpose, I don't even know what position he is suppose to be playing in this new formation? kind of wide right, I don't know?

I agree that we have bigger problems than Ozil, though I will say that he has been awful this season IMO, especially in the big games. Like others, I think he (Ozil) would instantly improve and serve a purpose in the team under a manager who appreciates organisation and tactics.

[Marc Overmars]

I just don't know about Ozil anymore.

If the right offer came in I think we should probably sell him. I reckon he's easier to replace than Sanchez.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ozil is part of the problem but not the problem. Like many others in this team he serves no purpose, I don't even know what position he is suppose to be playing in this new formation? kind of wide right, I don't know?

I agree that we have bigger problems than Ozil, though I will say that he has been awful this season IMO, especially in the big games. Like others, I think he (Ozil) would instantly improve and serve a purpose in the team under a manager who appreciates organisation and tactics.

This is our dilemma. We have a club that thinks it can get away with paying well below the going rate for world class players, yet overpays dross. We have a manager that has no clue how to get the best from his players. We have a club that fucks around with player contracts, running them right up to the deadline. It's a shit show all round.

Can anyone believe this cock Wenger STILL hasn't announced his intentions? It's way beyond the line of credibility now. And this is fucking up the team and the players and the contract negotiations and potential summer deals too. It's impossibly hard to believe how badly this has all been conducted.

Do we pay Ozil 250K a week so he can continue to play in a team mismanaged by Wenger? I would say no, what's the point? But then again, what is the genius Wenger going to do with the money if we sell Ozil? Sit on it? Splash it in another Mustafi of Xhaka? And what will our famed transfer team get for Ozil anyway? Or Alexis? We've let all our starts go on the cheap because we fucked up all their contracts.

However, if the cock Wenger announced he was pissing off, as he should do if he has an ounce of dignity remaining, then we have a world class player in Ozil that surely a competent manager could unlock. And whether it's Ozil or a player of similar ability, it's still going to cost 200-250K a week, plus a big fee if we are bringing in a replacement. Will we spend what is required?

As always, it comes down to what the cock Wenger is going to do. Selfish cunt.

[selassie]

This is our dilemma. We have a club that thinks it can get away with paying well below the going rate for world class players, yet overpays dross. We have a manager that has no clue how to get the best from his players. We have a club that fucks around with player contracts, running them right up to the deadline. It's a shit show all round.

Can anyone believe this cock Wenger STILL hasn't announced his intentions? It's way beyond the line of credibility now. And this is fucking up the team and the players and the contract negotiations and potential summer deals too. It's impossibly hard to believe how badly this has all been conducted.

Do we pay Ozil 250K a week so he can continue to play in a team mismanaged by Wenger? I would say no, what's the point? But then again, what is the genius Wenger going to do with the money if we sell Ozil? Sit on it? Splash it in another Mustafi of Xhaka? And what will our famed transfer team get for Ozil anyway? Or Alexis? We've let all our starts go on the cheap because we fucked up all their contracts.

However, if the cock Wenger announced he was pissing off, as he should do if he has an ounce of dignity remaining, then we have a world class player in Ozil that surely a competent manager could unlock. And whether it's Ozil or a player of similar ability, it's still going to cost 200-250K a week, plus a big fee if we are bringing in a replacement. Will we spend what is required?

As always, it comes down to what the cock Wenger is going to do. Selfish cunt.

:lol:

Sad thing is it's true, Wenger has the club by the balls. Sad state of affairs.

[Letters]

Can anyone believe this cock Wenger STILL hasn't announced his intentions?

Maybe he's going to judge himself at the end of the season ##


As much as I want us to win the FA Cup I fear that us doing so will, rather than nudging him to go out on a high, convince him that he's still "got it" and sign da ting.

[Power n Glory]

Ozil is the epitome of Wenger ball. Economical football. He doesn’t take chances and that’s the main problem I have with his game. He is Mr. Tippy Tappy. Pass completion rate always in the high percentages, ball to feet passes all the time, never takes on a player and despite playing in a wider position against Spurs, he didn’t attempt a single take on. It’s a common stat and whilst everyone is going crazy over Ox, Gibbs and Sanchez turning over the ball 20 times, I think good pass completion stats help hide passenger players. Literally passing the buck to the high risk players that attempt the risky pass or risky dribble.

This is pisses me off most about Ozil. He’s more than capable of dribbling past a couple of players or playing the sort of pass we’ve seen Cesc pull off for Chelsea this season but he doesn’t try to. Just look at how technically limited Ramsey is but he’ll always attempt a Hollywood ball, shot or flick despite not having the tools. If only Ozil had that sort of audacity to his game. Definitely not worth the money.

It’s not just a case of Wenger being Wenger either. Whatever happened to player intuition? Play Cesc in that formation and I bet he’d drop back and tuck in to help control the middle if that’s what the game is calling for. Failing that, I bet he’d look to play diagonal passes over the top to Sanchez to try and get him in on goal. We’ve seen it so much where a player just breaks the usual pass and recycle pattern to try and produce some magic. Ozil rarely makes and attempt despite being capable.

[Niall_Quinn]

Without that ball retention we literally have nothing. We're in such a state now that hanging on to the ball ranks as an achievement. Almost all our players were panic-stricken in possession and resorted to booting the ball up the pitch, mostly to the opposition. We couldn't even get our square and backwards game going. The midfield was horrendous. Ramsey is so slow when he received the ball, he invites the pressure. Xhaka is the same. Ozil can at least keep the ball and get himself out of trouble. This is it, the best we can hope for when we come up against decent opposition. Because Wenger's whole game is tip, tap, tip, tap, 73% possession, when we are up against a good team and because the technical ability of the team has been exposed as a myth, we get dominated. Ozil might not be winning the games, but he's one of the few players, along with Ox and Alexis and sometimes Coquelin (more by luck than design I think), who prevent it being a total rout. Santi would be another one, but he's always dead.

And don't forget Giroud. When you stick that lump up top it puts such a huge amount of pressure on the midfield because they have no out ball. Giroud just stands there waiting for the ball to hit him. He's a super lazy bastard and he's had very little criticism over his recent performances. There's a reason for that. Mostly everyone knows he's shit, so we all just say, Giroud, yes, awful, and the move on. The criticism of Ozil is based on the desire to see more, not because he's a bad player. We're in a reality (whether Wenger likes it or not) that sees even half decent players pulling down big wages. Is Ozil worth 250? Of course not, that's insane. But then again, nobody is worth that and who are we getting to replace him? Some panic merchant with hyped technical ability who will make us even more vulnerable?

We really are in some serious shit now. The fall always comes fast after steady decline. If Wenger keeps his job then there's literally nothing that could see him get sacked and there's nothing that would encourage him to piss off. So we say, 2 more years. But does this really mean 4 more years, or 10? Are we going to be in exactly the same situation 2 years on from now, with Wenger saying will I, won't I? Why not? This is Arsenal. Put some money on us being in that exact position 2 years from now and you won't be disappointed.

[Power n Glory]

If Ozil's supposed to be better than Cesc and one of the best at creating chances, what's stopping him from pulling this off?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OANg7jiQibc

No need for us to dominate possession to create this sort of opportunity. For us, when we had Cesc, players like Theo and Ade would anticipate the ball coming from Cesc and make that run. Ozil doesn't have that sort of understanding with any of the players. Not Theo, Alexis, Welbeck, Ox...none of them.

[Niall_Quinn]

If Ozil's supposed to be better than Cesc and one of the best at creating chances, what's stopping him from pulling this off?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OANg7jiQibc

No need for us to dominate possession to create this sort of opportunity. For us, when we had Cesc, players like Theo and Ade would anticipate the ball coming from Cesc and make that run. Ozil doesn't have that sort of understanding with any of the players. Not Theo, Alexis, Welbeck, Ox...none of them.

He had an EXCELLENT understanding with Alexis when the latter was playing up top and they were starting to interchange very nicely. Wenger spotted that and stamped it out.

[Power n Glory]

He had an EXCELLENT understanding with Alexis when the latter was playing up top and they were starting to interchange very nicely. Wenger spotted that and stamped it out.

Ozil didn’t provide one assist for Alexis in that partnership. It was always the other way around with Alexis setting up the majority of Ozil’s goals this season.

[Özim]

I get the impression with Ozil that he needs to be in a team with leaders, he won't control games or make things happen when the chips are down, he's more of a luxury player who under the right manager with a more balanced team would excel. Some players are leaders, some need leading and he definitely falls into the latter, in a team like ours devoid, or leadership, hunger and confidence he's does very little.

There's no doubting his talent, but I think he's weak when faced with adversity, he's needs encouragement and someone to push him and tell him exactly what he should be doing and what role he has to get the best out of him, Wenger isn't the man, the man is tactically inept, doesn't give players a specific role and frankly just puts players where he feels like putting them without any real logic about it.

I reckon a better manager who is more tactically astute and drills players would get much better performances out of Ozil.

Our best players look distinctly average under the current setup, I think the need for fresh ideas and new blood is all too clear for everyone to see.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ozil didn’t provide one assist for Alexis in that partnership. It was always the other way around with Alexis setting up the majority of Ozil’s goals this season.

So what? It was a partnership nonetheless. It was working, or at least working in comparison to any of the rest of the shit we have seen this season. Le Bumbling Idiot had other ideas though and here we are, floundering with not a flicker of cohesion in this team. It takes a total fool to waste the players we have here, and we have the biggest fool of all in charge.

[Power n Glory]

It matters if we’re keeping this in context about what players he needs around him to be an effective playmaker. Giroud takes a lot of criticism for Ozil’s shortcomings but there hasn’t been a striker I’ve seen Ozil flourish with. Not Perez, not Sanchez, not Welbeck, not Walcott. But I’d put money on a playmaker like Cesc feeding way more goals to any of those players up front.

There is a discussion to be had about piss poor tactics, but something that can’t be coached is team chemistry or two or three players having that understanding. Players that anticipate each other’s moves and that’s something that should occur naturally other time in training. When we had Bergkamp and he dropped deep, just a glance would be enough to let others know to make that run and expect the ball to arrive inch perfect. Cesc was the same and he’d constantly be looking for a player like Theo to run and Theo would always anticipate the ball coming from Cesc. It was the same for all of the players around Cesc.

[Power n Glory]

I get the impression with Ozil that he needs to be in a team with leaders, he won't control games or make things happen when the chips are down, he's more of a luxury player who under the right manager with a more balanced team would excel. Some players are leaders, some need leading and he definitely falls into the latter, in a team like ours devoid, or leadership, hunger and confidence he's does very little.

There's no doubting his talent, but I think he's weak when faced with adversity, he's needs encouragement and someone to push him and tell him exactly what he should be doing and what role he has to get the best out of him, Wenger isn't the man, the man is tactically inept, doesn't give players a specific role and frankly just puts players where he feels like putting them without any real logic about it.

I reckon a better manager who is more tactically astute and drills players would get much better performances out of Ozil.

Our best players look distinctly average under the current setup, I think the need for fresh ideas and new blood is all too clear for everyone to see.

I think the same can be said for a lot of players in the club but because they didn’t come from Madrid and have a £43m price tag slapped on them, they’re not called ‘luxury’ players. Just shite! :lol:

Besides a slight difference to how often he loses the ball or plays a bad pass, you could probably swap Ozil for Jack Wilshire or Iwobi and have the same effect on our performances. Playing either wide or through the centre, they’d all have the same effect on our midfield except maybe Ozil having the better passing accuracy stats. His effect on the midfield has been minimal.

[Niall_Quinn]

It matters if we’re keeping this in context about what players he needs around him to be an effective playmaker. Giroud takes a lot of criticism for Ozil’s shortcomings but there hasn’t been a striker I’ve seen Ozil flourish with. Not Perez, not Sanchez, not Welbeck, not Walcott. But I’d put money on a playmaker like Cesc feeding way more goals to any of those players up front.

There is a discussion to be had about piss poor tactics, but something that can’t be coached is team chemistry or two or three players having that understanding. Players that anticipate each other’s moves and that’s something that should occur naturally other time in training. When we had Bergkamp and he dropped deep, just a glance would be enough to let others know to make that run and expect the ball to arrive inch perfect. Cesc was the same and he’d constantly be looking for a player like Theo to run and Theo would always anticipate the ball coming from Cesc. It was the same for all of the players around Cesc.

I'm not sure you have been watching us play. Drop deep and glance up for the runners? Are you kidding me? You could drop as deep as you wanted in this setup and grab your binoculars. All you'd see is the square ball. Nobody makes any runs. There are no players to hit. Nobody looks for the space in behind. Nobody plays with enough tempo to create that space in the first place. Nobody looks to beat a player, except Ox every now and again (and he gets benched for doing it). This is a one paced, unimaginative, plodding, sideways, negative shower of excrement manufactured by one man and one man alone. You can criticise Ozil all you want for not being able to transform a giant steaming turd into a gourmet serving, but without him we'd be even worse because we'd have one less player who can receive, hold and distribute a ball. Fabregas would fare no differently. Bergkamp would be a shocking waste in this team.

[Power n Glory]

I'm not sure you have been watching us play. Drop deep and glance up for the runners? Are you kidding me? You could drop as deep as you wanted in this setup and grab your binoculars. All you'd see is the square ball. Nobody makes any runs. There are no players to hit. Nobody looks for the space in behind. Nobody plays with enough tempo to create that space in the first place. Nobody looks to beat a player, except Ox every now and again (and he gets benched for doing it). This is a one paced, unimaginative, plodding, sideways, negative shower of excrement manufactured by one man and one man alone. You can criticise Ozil all you want for not being able to transform a giant steaming turd into a gourmet serving, but without him we'd be even worse because we'd have one less player who can receive, hold and distribute a ball. Fabregas would fare no differently. Bergkamp would be a shocking waste in this team.

Bollocks. I see Ramsey trying to hit a Hollywood pass every so often but missing the target by a wide mark. If it's widely accepted that Wenger doesn't micro manage his players, then I don't get why a few players haven't struck up an understanding like previous teams. Theo makes runs all game. That's all he looks to do. Alexis does whatever the fuck he wants to do. He doesn't play the tip tappy shite and that goes right against the claim that Wenger instructs them all to do the same thing.

Heck, I’ve even seen Song and RVP strike up some sort of understanding that players in this team lack. It doesn’t have to save the day every single game but Ozil should be coming up with the goods enough so I’m not constantly questioning his ability.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I'm not sure you have been watching us play. Drop deep and glance up for the runners? Are you kidding me? You could drop as deep as you wanted in this setup and grab your binoculars. All you'd see is the square ball. Nobody makes any runs. There are no players to hit. Nobody looks for the space in behind. Nobody plays with enough tempo to create that space in the first place. Nobody looks to beat a player, except Ox every now and again (and he gets benched for doing it). This is a one paced, unimaginative, plodding, sideways, negative shower of excrement manufactured by one man and one man alone. You can criticise Ozil all you want for not being able to transform a giant steaming turd into a gourmet serving, but without him we'd be even worse because we'd have one less player who can receive, hold and distribute a ball. Fabregas would fare no differently. Bergkamp would be a shocking waste in this team.

I mostly agree with this, except the only difference is that Cesc would at least shoot when the opportunity arises 9 times out of 10, whereas Ozil will look to pass instead.

[Niall_Quinn]

Bollocks. I see Ramsey trying to hit a Hollywood pass every so often but missing the target by a wide mark. If it's widely accepted that Wenger doesn't micro manage his players, then I don't get why a few players haven't struck up an understanding like previous teams. Theo makes runs all game. That's all he looks to do. Alexis does whatever the fuck he wants to do. He doesn't play the tip tappy shite and that goes right against the claim that Wenger instructs them all to do the same thing.

Heck, I’ve even seen Song and RVP strike up some sort of understanding that players in this team lack. It doesn’t have to save the day every single game but Ozil should be coming up with the goods enough so I’m not constantly questioning his ability.

That bit in bold is crazy. Theo runs to his defender all the time. And then he gets the ball with back to goal and lays it back. He consistently does the opposite of what he should be doing. I think even Wenger has got bored with him.

As for Ramsey, sure, he does the Roy of the Rovers stuff. For two reasons. One, because he routinely abandons his designated role. Two, because if he didn't get forward or provide some sort of outlet for Alexis and Ozil then nobody else is going to do it (assuming we have Ox playing as the fucking full back - OMFG, it's almost impossible to comprehend). Giroud's not going to do it, that's for sure.

[Power n Glory]

Cesc would shoot more, drop deep to try and play combinations or just look for the killer pass to win us the tie. He had far less to work with. Tactically, we had games where Eboue and Diaby were our wide players! Games where he had to play with an ageing Gilberto or a complete lazy shite in Denilson. Justin Hoyte used to play right back for us but I’d still see that team play with more style and purpose than this current lot. Fuck no would Cesc struggle in this team.

[Niall_Quinn]

Cesc would shoot more, drop deep to try and play combinations or just look for the killer pass to win us the tie. He had far less to work with. Tactically, we had games where Eboue and Diaby were our wide players! Games where he had to play with an ageing Gilberto or a complete lazy shite in Denilson. Justin Hoyte used to play right back for us but I’d still see that team play with more style and purpose than this current lot. Fuck no would Cesc struggle in this team.

But you're jus confirming what I'm saying. When football was closer to what Wenger could cope with, his lesser teams could at least make a show of it. Now he's so out of his depth that nobody working with him could make a blind bit of difference over the course of the season. The last player we had who blew the league away, RvC, tried to do it on his own and ended up moving to Utd, where he showed it is possible to win it single handedly - provided Wenger is not involved. Give Wenger Messi and Ronaldo and it wouldn't make any difference. He'd play them in defence anyway.

You realise - this cocksucker is playing Ox in a back 5. This is where we are. I don't know why you are looking for the subtleties when we are a million miles away from the basics.

[mastermind84]

Cesc would shoot more, drop deep to try and play combinations or just look for the killer pass to win us the tie. He had far less to work with. Tactically, we had games where Eboue and Diaby were our wide players! Games where he had to play with an ageing Gilberto or a complete lazy shite in Denilson. Justin Hoyte used to play right back for us but I’d still see that team play with more style and purpose than this current lot. Fuck no would Cesc struggle in this team.
I know this is hard for you, but the managerial talent in the league today is eons better than it was during that era. Like not even close. Wenger was still a top class manager during this period.

When Pochettino arrived in England, the game changed completely. Now you have Guardiola, Klopp, a fading Mourinho, and even a guy like Koeman.

This is Wenger's best squad since the Emirates move. I really believe that, and its among the best in the league but he has no idea how to put this group together to win.

Having a slow ass Fabregas in our midfield will expose him even more and won't make a difference.

[mastermind84]

Wenger is not a manager who looks at the details. He has never been that way.

The problem is football manager are now looking at the details and exploiting that, and Arsenal will fall further behind as long as Wenger is still around.

[Letters]

This is Wenger's best squad since the Emirates move. I really believe that, and its among the best in the league but he has no idea how to put this group together to win.

That's how I see it.
There's very little wrong with our squad, not that it couldn't be strengthened but we don't need a huge clear out in order to compete.

[Niall_Quinn]

None of it makes any difference. Wenger is staying and the offer on the table is at least 2 more years of the same old shit. In many ways, I'm not tempted.

[Power n Glory]

I know this is hard for you, but the managerial talent in the league today is eons better than it was during that era. Like not even close. Wenger was still a top class manager during this period.

When Pochettino arrived in England, the game changed completely. Now you have Guardiola, Klopp, a fading Mourinho, and even a guy like Koeman.

This is Wenger's best squad since the Emirates move. I really believe that, and its among the best in the league but he has no idea how to put this group together to win.

Having a slow ass Fabregas in our midfield will expose him even more and won't make a difference.

You mean like Xhaka? ;) A ‘slow assed’ Fabregas wouldn’t help in protecting the defence but he’d be 10 times more effective when it comes to transitions, controlling the midfield and creating clear cut chances on goal. Once he left the squad, our style of play was never same despite teams and managers in the Prem being the same.

What he’s doing offensively for Chelsea is all the proof you need. He’s played less games than Ozil and not even a starter but has more assists. Ok, he doesn’t start games because he’s weak on defence but Ozil and Xhaka are far weaker players on defence in comparison. Their defensive contribution is a joke and it’s not worth it considering the little we get from them in attack.

[Power n Glory]

But you're jus confirming what I'm saying. When football was closer to what Wenger could cope with, his lesser teams could at least make a show of it. Now he's so out of his depth that nobody working with him could make a blind bit of difference over the course of the season. The last player we had who blew the league away, RvC, tried to do it on his own and ended up moving to Utd, where he showed it is possible to win it single handedly - provided Wenger is not involved. Give Wenger Messi and Ronaldo and it wouldn't make any difference. He'd play them in defence anyway.

You realise - this cocksucker is playing Ox in a back 5. This is where we are. I don't know why you are looking for the subtleties when we are a million miles away from the basics.

I've made this point before but when we had Cesc and RVP having to lead the team on their own, it was clear day that they were great players for us but couldn't produce magic for us week in week out. We're still waiting for Ozil to turn up in a big game for fucks sakes. I'm not confirming what you're saying at all. Ozil is just as much of a passenger for Germany and when Ancelotti arrived for Madrid, he didn't want him either. Even for Madrid, Ozil revealed Mourinho had to pin him and tell him that one or two good passes per game doesn't mean you've done your job. Over the past 4 years, despite seeing great players really carry the burden, we've been accepting the bare minimum from him.

[Niall_Quinn]

You mean like Xhaka? ;) A ‘slow assed’ Fabregas wouldn’t help in protecting the defence but he’d be 10 times more effective when it comes to transitions, controlling the midfield and creating clear cut chances on goal. Once he left the squad, our style of play was never same despite teams and managers in the Prem being the same.

What he’s doing offensively for Chelsea is all the proof you need. He’s played less games than Ozil and not even a starter but has more assists. Ok, he doesn’t start games because he’s weak on defence but Ozil and Xhaka are far weaker players on defence in comparison. Their defensive contribution is a joke and it’s not worth it considering the little we get from them in attack.

No it isn't! Because he's doing it for the chavs. A bloke called Conte runs that team. A bloke who will achieve in a year what Wenger hasn't been able to do in over a decade. AND with a team that was on the slide. That's the real proof you are looking for.

[Niall_Quinn]

I've made this point before but when we had Cesc and RVP having to lead the team on their own, it was clear day that they were great players for us but couldn't produce magic for us week in week out. We're still waiting for Ozil to turn up in a big game for fucks sakes. I'm not confirming what you're saying at all. Ozil is just as much of a passenger for Germany and when Ancelotti arrived for Madrid, he didn't want him either. Even for Madrid, Ozil revealed Mourinho had to pin him and tell him that one or two good passes per game doesn't mean you've done your job. Over the past 4 years, despite seeing great players really carry the burden, we've been accepting the bare minimum from him.

The "Ozil doesn't turn up for big games" bullshit is pure media. Arsenal doesn't turn up for the big games and this brings us back to square one. Are we relying on Ozil to compensate? If so, we picked the wrong player. If we want a world class playmaker in a well drilled team then Ozil is our man. If we want an expensive artisan trying to dance on a reservoir of sewage then, however you look at it, it's not going to be pretty. You seem to have it in for the guy because he doesn't have the character to pull this team up by himself, despite the crazed manager. He didn't have that character at Madrid and he didn't have it for the Germans. Other players provided that and Ozil supplied the ammo. That's what he does, in teams that have an ambition to attack the opposition, rather than bore them to death.

[Power n Glory]

No it isn't! Because he's doing it for the chavs. A bloke called Conte runs that team. A bloke who will achieve in a year what Wenger hasn't been able to do in over a decade. AND with a team that was on the slide. That's the real proof you are looking for.

No way. Are you surprised that he’s doing it for the Chavs? Have you seen anything to Cesc’s game that you haven’t seen him do when playing for Arsenal? Hell no. The only difference is that he’s won trophies under different managers and the quality he’s putting in wins him trophies. We’re not surprised by his performances or shocked that he’s able to set up the winning goal to earn them 3 points, are we?

It was the same for RVP. He continued to bang in goals when playing for Utd. If it were the case that Cesc and RVP were underperforming for us at Arsenal but blew up into major players at other clubs, I’d understand and agree with you, but that’s not the case.

[Niall_Quinn]

No way. Are you surprised that he’s doing it for the Chavs? Have you seen anything to Cesc’s game that you haven’t seen him do when playing for Arsenal? Hell no. The only difference is that he’s won trophies under different managers and the quality he’s putting in wins him trophies. We’re not surprised by his performances or shocked that he’s able to set up the winning goal to earn them 3 points, are we?

It was the same for RVP. He continued to bang in goals when playing for Utd. If it were the case that Cesc and RVP were underperforming for us at Arsenal but blew up into major players at other clubs, I’d understand and agree with you, but that’s not the case.

That's a completely different argument, almost as if time is suspended and Wenger's collapse into total incompetence has not occurred. We're talking about putting Fabregas into today's team, not a team from half a decade ago. We have been getting worse, season after season, regardless of what players are on the pitch. We have several quality players already, we have brought in two acknowledged world class players. And it hasn't made a damn bit of difference, apart from maybe being in an even bigger shit state without them. We are 17 points behind the spuds, never mind how many points behind the leaders. Every year, worse. Makes no odds who is on the pitch. There is one constant. We all know who he is. Yet the media singles out Ozil. Apparently he should be doing more to compensate for this Wenger guy. It's ridiculous. Like running a car on bricks and demanding the driver press harder on the accelerator. Lazy driver.

[Power n Glory]

The "Ozil doesn't turn up for big games" bullshit is pure media. Arsenal doesn't turn up for the big games and this brings us back to square one. Are we relying on Ozil to compensate? If so, we picked the wrong player. If we want a world class playmaker in a well drilled team then Ozil is our man. If we want an expensive artisan trying to dance on a reservoir of sewage then, however you look at it, it's not going to be pretty. You seem to have it in for the guy because he doesn't have the character to pull this team up by himself, despite the crazed manager. He didn't have that character at Madrid and he didn't have it for the Germans. Other players provided that and Ozil supplied the ammo. That's what he does, in teams that have an ambition to attack the opposition, rather than bore them to death.

Exactly. We picked the wrong player to build around.

I have it in for him because he's our record signing and has been coasting his entire time being here. Am I supposed to be happy about that given the criticism I've dished out to Wenger when it comes to this sort of topic?

[Letters]

IMO, PnG, what you're doing to Ozil is like Usain Bolt getting a new coach who insists he wears lead shoes, or maybe a better analogy is he just lets Bolt get really fat, and then when Bolt stops winning races you're saying "See? Told you he was shit".
Ozil has a proven track record at the highest level and at times his stats for us have been impressive but in a team no longer playing for each other or the manager he is struggling like the rest of them.
You can't really blame the player for that - not that I think our players completely get off the hook but I think he's the wrong target for your ire.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I personally think the whole discussion has become irrelevant. Whether we need Ozil or not is no different to a point we could make about the entire team. Is he going walk about in big games? For sure but we have one or two players maybe that aren't.
Sanchez is still getting the odd goal but you can't tell me his head is in the right place anymore, if we were talking about five-six years ago where the likes of Van Persie was pulling us over the line in a team full of average players no Ozil is not doing that, equally we are 6th at the moment so it's hard to argue we'd be doing any worse without him in the side.

We see whether he plays, when he doesn't play the difference is negligible. But that's far more about the malaise throughout the entire squad. Ozil isn't a strong character whose natural ability is going to shine through in times of adversity even the people most admiring of his talents will admit that, but it's fair to say it's still up for debate whether a better manager could be getting more out of him.

Towards the end of last year Ozil was stinking out the place with his showing on the pitch, now it just passes without notice.

Would it be the end of the world if we got rid of him? No more than it would be the end of the world if any of these players go now really. I think it's all subordinate to the much larger issue of the manager, if he stays than I think the only way is even further disappointment and abject performances.

[Power n Glory]

IMO, PnG, what you're doing to Ozil is like Usain Bolt getting a new coach who insists he wears lead shoes, or maybe a better analogy is he just lets Bolt get really fat, and then when Bolt stops winning races you're saying "See? Told you he was shit".
Ozil has a proven track record at the highest level and at times his stats for us have been impressive but in a team no longer playing for each other or the manager he is struggling like the rest of them.
You can't really blame the player for that - not that I think our players completely get off the hook but I think he's the wrong target for your ire.

:lol: Wrong wrong wrong.

Has anyone seen Ozil perform for Germany at a much higher standard than what you've seen for Arsenal?

[Power n Glory]

Also, if Cazorla would have stayed fit throughout the season, does anyone here think we'd have seen a different season and gear to our play?

[Niall_Quinn]

I personally think the whole discussion has become irrelevant. Whether we need Ozil or not is no different to a point we could make about the entire team. Is he going walk about in big games? For sure but we have one or two players maybe that aren't.
Sanchez is still getting the odd goal but you can't tell me his head is in the right place anymore, if we were talking about five-six years ago where the likes of Van Persie was pulling us over the line in a team full of average players no Ozil is not doing that, equally we are 6th at the moment so it's hard to argue we'd be doing any worse without him in the side.

We see whether he plays, when he doesn't play the difference is negligible. But that's far more about the malaise throughout the entire squad. Ozil isn't a strong character whose natural ability is going to shine through in times of adversity even the people most admiring of his talents will admit that, but it's fair to say it's still up for debate whether a better manager could be getting more out of him.

Towards the end of last year Ozil was stinking out the place with his showing on the pitch, now it just passes without notice.

Would it be the end of the world if we got rid of him? No more than it would be the end of the world if any of these players go now really. I think it's all subordinate to the much larger issue of the manager, if he stays than I think the only way is even further disappointment and abject performances.

If Messi joins us in the summer, by winter the headlines will be Messi Finished, What Happened to Messi?, Messi #stealingALiving, Messi - Awful Goalkeeper.

[Power n Glory]

There is no way Ozil deserves a new contract. IMO he lacks aggression and fight, he is easily brushed aside and is a passenger in most of the big games. how can he demand 300k a week when he is one of our underachieving players? IMO we should sell him and get a replacement. There are loads of attacking midfielders who would improve us.

The problem is Wenger sees him as some kind of saviour and someone we cant lose. Bollox, Ozil needs to go. How long can you realistically wait for him to come good and produce what he can on a regular basis? he onto his 4th season and has shown zero progress. I remember when Walcott held the club to ransom and was given 100k a week despite being an average player, this canot happen again with Ozil (i know he is a quality player but he doesnt produce enough, nowhere near enough).

:gp: Also. I didn't start this conversation again. :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:lol: Wrong wrong wrong.

Has anyone seen Ozil perform for Germany at a much higher standard than what you've seen for Arsenal?

Depends what you mean by higher level?

If you are saying at no time has Ozil matched the hype you think has been placed upon him at Arsenal than no he hasn't performed any better for Germany.

However if you are arguing that there are times where he's been fantastic for us albeit no where near enough, yes that level has been shown for Germany and arguably more often than it gets seen at club level the last three-four seasons.

Whether he's invaluable to us is moot, because we haven't reached a level which he would have been invaluable in getting us too. Is that somewhat his fault? Yes but not substantially more than it is the fault of any player who puts on the shirt.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If Messi joins us in the summer, by winter the headlines will be Messi Finished, What Happened to Messi?, Messi #stealingALiving, Messi - Awful Goalkeeper.

If he joined us in our current state from Barcelona this summer, they wouldn't wait until winter to write those kind of headlines

[Cripps]

The original question is do we need ozil, imo the answer is no. Generally speaking, in the premier league you need players that have energy, high work rate and desire, and imo he lacks all 3.

If you replace him with a player that has those 3 attributes I think we'd do much much better.

[mastermind84]

What he’s doing offensively for Chelsea is all the proof you need.

this is why its tough to have a conversation with you. You don't do context and don't care about nuance. Look at the runners in that midfield vs our midfield's lack of athleticism. He don't cover as much space for Chelsea as he does for us.

Even still, he doesnt play much for Chelsea because Conte knows he cant rely on him in that system.

You play him in our system where Wenger doesnt know what he wants his midfielders to do and they have to run more, he would be badly exposed quickly. Shit, the match we played at the Emirates ended Fabregas' time as a starter under Conte because he was woefully off pace.

Our problem isnt a talent problem, but a system problem.

That isn't absolving anyone, but its hard to judge anyone at Arsenal under Wenger.

Also, if Cazorla would have stayed fit throughout the season, does anyone here think we'd have seen a different season and gear to our play?

we were shit with Cazorla playing.

We were just finishing at a ridiculously high percentage yet were still struggling to be beat the bottom teams in the league.

[Niall_Quinn]

That isn't absolving anyone, but its hard to judge anyone at Arsenal under Wenger.

That's the long and short of it.

[Power n Glory]

The original question is do we need ozil, imo the answer is no. Generally speaking, in the premier league you need players that have energy, high work rate and desire, and imo he lacks all 3.

If you replace him with a player that has those 3 attributes I think we'd do much much better.

:gp: sums it up.

[Niall_Quinn]

:gp: sums it up.

Nope, it really doesn't. In this league you need a mix of player types. Certainly the high energy Kante types, for sure. But also the speed merchants, the leaders, the blood and guts defender types, and the playmaker - every good team has one. When you get the right blend you get a good team.

[Niall_Quinn]

Here you go, the great Eriksen against the lazy Ozil. As we can see, Ozil does as much defensive work as the flavour of the month. All that media bullshit is just a myth, and too many fans lap it up.

Truth is, both players are important to their teams but Eriksen prospers because he's in a much better team.

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2016/2017/mesut_özil/641/641/123/0/p|premier_league/2016/2017/christian_eriksen/641/641/61/0/p#total_score/attack_score/defence_score/successful_passes/pass_completion/key_passes/assists/chances_created/tackles_won/successful_take_ons/interceptions/blocks/clearances#90

[Marc Overmars]

To be honest I don't think many Arsenal fans really believe he is lazy. The problem comes from the perception that he doesn't have enough of an impact on us as a team.

Mourinho called him out at Madrid for being a pussy and he was probably right.

[Niall_Quinn]

To be honest I don't think many Arsenal fans really believe he is lazy. The problem comes from the perception that he doesn't have enough of an impact on us as a team.

Mourinho called him out at Madrid for being a pussy and he was probably right.

Plenty call him lazy. They say he goes missing. What they are really seeing is the whole team go missing because it's directed by an incompetent. Then the frustration is taken out on Ozil because people expect him to somehow compensate for the total lack of a team around him. But it's the same with Alexis, same with Walcott, same with Welbeck, same for all of them. All individuals absent a team structure. And when we do manage to find a tint bit of cohesion, Wenger snuffs it out with a sub or a benching or one of his weird positional switches. Nobody can succeed here while Wenger is in charge and it has been that way for a few years now. And he's getting worse every season.

[mastermind84]

Here you go, the great Eriksen against the lazy Ozil. As we can see, Ozil does as much defensive work as the flavour of the month. All that media bullshit is just a myth, and too many fans lap it up.

Truth is, both players are important to their teams but Eriksen prospers because he's in a much better team.

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2016/2017/mesut_özil/641/641/123/0/p|premier_league/2016/2017/christian_eriksen/641/641/61/0/p#total_score/attack_score/defence_score/successful_passes/pass_completion/key_passes/assists/chances_created/tackles_won/successful_take_ons/interceptions/blocks/clearances#90

go even further and compare it to Alexis.

Fans and media think Alexis has high workrate and use that to critique Ozil, but Alexis is one of the laziest forwards in the league.

[Letters]

:lol: Wrong wrong wrong.

Has anyone seen Ozil perform for Germany at a much higher standard than what you've seen for Arsenal?

Well, he was in the squad that won the World Cup last year and I think he played most games so he was obviously doing ok.
His assist stats before he came to us were ridiculous and even for us at times they've been impressive in what hasn't been a great side in the last couple of years. He's a strange choice to pick for criticism IMO.

[Dicks and chicks]

Well, he was in the squad that won the World Cup last year and I think he played most games so he was obviously doing ok.
His assist stats before he came to us were ridiculous and even for us at times they've been impressive in what hasn't been a great side in the last couple of years. He's a strange choice to pick for criticism IMO.

He was shit for Germany at the world cup

[Power n Glory]

Who's talking about Eriksen in here?

Throw Cesc into the equation. Shits over both of them. Attack and defence.

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2016/2017/mesut_özil/641/641/123/0/p|premier_league/2016/2017/christian_eriksen/641/641/61/0/p|premier_league/2016/2017/cesc_fàbregas/641/641/306/0/p#total_score/attack_score/defence_score/successful_passes/pass_completion/key_passes/assists/chances_created/tackles_won/successful_take_ons/interceptions/blocks/clearances#90

Mastermind is also talking out of his ass about Cesc not covering enough ground. Under Mourinho, he was the player to cover more ground than any of his team mates.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/chelsea/11570614/Who-is-the-hardest-working-Chelsea-player.html

This season, despite not playing much Cesc still leads the line for distance covered at Chelsea.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/andrew-surman-is-the-premier-leagues-hardest-working-player-but-who-leads-arsenal-chelsea-and-a6863056.html%3Famp

[Niall_Quinn]

We're talking about Eriksen to illustrate the media myth because he's the closest equivalent and an example of a player who doesn't seem to draw fire for not being all PL about his defensive work. If all 22 players rushed around the place for 90 minutes, barging, flying into tackles, punting it and sprinting after it, the media would say it was the greatest game ever. We miss Cazorla because he can retain and use the ball in a frantic PL midfield. Just as we miss Ozil for the same reasons, he can hold, use and distribute a ball. But he can't make Giroud run. He can't dictate the team selections, the shape, the tactics, the individual technique of the players Wenger favours, nor the overall mentality we go into games with. All of that is Wenger's job. If Wenger did his job we'd get a lot more out of not just Ozil but all of them.

Do we need him. Damn yes, we'd be in even bigger shit without him. At least we have a few decent players. Should we pay big money for him? If Wenger is staying, probably not. There's no point. We won't need top tier players as Wenger moulds us into a mid-table team. Standard PL cloggers will do. But if we're bringing in a real manager then we'll need a whole bunch of different types of player, one type being Ozil.

[Power n Glory]

Who cares about the media myth besides you?

So we need Ozil to help us hold possession? Do you hear yourself when berating Wenger’s obsession with the possession statistics?

[Niall_Quinn]

Who cares about the media myth besides you?

So we need Ozil to help us hold possession? Do you hear yourself when berating Wenger’s obsession with the possession statistics?

All those fans on the lazy Ozil kick surely care about the media myth because that's where their opinions must be coming from, considering the facts run contrary.

Where did I say I wanted us to be a possession crazed team? But because that's what Wenger has us playing, it's kind of imperative for us to have players who can retain possession, otherwise we'd be even more fucked. I'd much rather see Ozil and the rest of the team used in a more ambitious system, but with Wenger we have what we have.

[Globalgunner]

Dont care if Ozil leaves or stays. He isnt the problem at Arsenal. Biggest headache is who would take him. Hopefully somewhere like AC Milan who can afford him
Player id like to see replace both Ozil and Cazorla is Siggurdssen of Swansea. Offers more energy and can take a free kick. Forget he was once a Spud. 15m should do it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Dont care if Ozil leaves or stays. He isnt the problem at Arsenal. Biggest headache is who would take him. Hopefully somewhere like AC Milan who can afford him
Player id like to see replace both Ozil and Cazorla is Siggurdssen of Swansea. Offers more energy and can take a free kick. Forget he was once a Spud. 15m should do it.

Just because Wenger has no clue and can't get the basics right doesn't mean we should buy into his drive for mid table obscurity. There are plenty of journeymen in the PL, players we could use to build a solid, if not spectacular, team under a competent manager. But don't we want shot of Wenger for his bare minimum philosophy? This is the real danger now. If Wenger persists for 2 more years he'll cement us into the second tier and change the whole nature of the club in the process.

Staggering to think we have two billionaire owners, supposedly a top manager (LOL) and some of the world's best facilities and yet we're sitting here wondering if we can retain and afford our best players and if anyone of note would want to join us. What an indictment of the fuck-ups in charge of the place.

[Letters]

He was shit for Germany at the world cup

And yet they kept picking him all the way to the final :shrug:

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2014/07/14/stats-things-mesut-ozil-did-better-than-anybody-else-at-world-cu/

[Power n Glory]

All those fans on the lazy Ozil kick surely care about the media myth because that's where their opinions must be coming from, considering the facts run contrary.

Where did I say I wanted us to be a possession crazed team? But because that's what Wenger has us playing, it's kind of imperative for us to have players who can retain possession, otherwise we'd be even more fucked. I'd much rather see Ozil and the rest of the team used in a more ambitious system, but with Wenger we have what we have.

As you can see, I've questioned Ozil's place in the team for a long time and has zero to do with media influence. It comes back to the type of players he needs around him and the striker in front. I’ve seen a number of different combinations and still feel Ozil is a passenger for most games. That’s not to put all the blame on him but I’m not absolving him either. Despite being technically gifted, I’m lumping him in there with Xhaka, Giroud, Walcott, Coquelin and Ramsey because I feel these type of players have distinctive strengths and weaknesses and it takes a combination and conditions to see them perform well.

I didn't say you wanted a possession crazed team. I asked if that's what we need Ozil to help us with? It would be a great help if he could do more in that area when we’re struggling to bypass teams that press, but he doesn’t. Even in games where we hold the bulk of possession, nothing is done with the ball because almost every player seems adverse to taking a risk besides Sanchez and Ox.

[mastermind84]

Delusions of Grandeur wants Wenger gone but I genuinely do not believe he knows why.

[Marc Overmars]

Wenger is a poor coach but the players need to shoulder some responsibility as well, if we had any strong personalities on the pitch we'd be doing a lot better. If someone like Ozil had the mentality to match his ability then he'd be a different animal.

Chelsea for example have gone through plenty of managerial upheaval over the years, however their players were always strong enough to get it together amongst themselves.

[Power n Glory]

My criticism of Wenger doesn't absolve the players.

Notice how you bypassed what you said about Cesc not covering the distance and defensive weakness. Numbers don't lie. You wouldn't argue Ozil's purchase has improved us defensively so it's not a great point to make to be honest. Stats show he's worse than Cesc.

Fact is, most people on here have no problem rounding on Giroud, Ramsey or Walcott but cut Ozil way too much slack because he's gifted technically and he has the world class label. The talk about him needing the right sort of players around him can be applied to most of the misfits in our squad. But what makes Ozil stand out for me is that he's gifted enough to do what all the others can't. He's not starved of service and not a limited player where he can't be more productive. Do I have to bring up those Real Madrid videos of him dribbling past players and using his pace? But against Spurs he didn't attempt a single take on.

It's the same thing revealed in his book when Mourinho pinned him up. I don't know why most people accept a fraction of his talent when he's capable of so much more. It doesn't all fall on the manager. If he's using every trick in his arsenal, but keeps on coming up short, fair enough. But he doesn't. That's what makes the criticism different to how I criticise a player like Giroud, Theo or Ramsey. We all know Giroud isn't suited to the tika taka short pass and move game. Physically, he's incapable of playing that way. It's not a case of lacking desire or commitment. Same goals for Walcott with not being able to dribble on the wings or Ramsey taking a heavy touch or screwing up a pass. With Ozil, I rarely feel like he's had the game of his life and been unlucky to be on the losing team. I felt that way about Cesc, RVP and would always come out to support those sort of guys in a contract dispute. Ozil...i can't say the same.

[Cripps]

Nope, it really doesn't. In this league you need a mix of player types. Certainly the high energy Kante types, for sure. But also the speed merchants, the leaders, the blood and guts defender types, and the playmaker - every good team has one. When you get the right blend you get a good team.

Yep. Which is why I said generally speaking.

[Cripps]

Plenty call him lazy. They say he goes missing. What they are really seeing is the whole team go missing because it's directed by an incompetent. Then the frustration is taken out on Ozil because people expect him to somehow compensate for the total lack of a team around him.

:haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger is a poor coach but the players need to shoulder some responsibility as well, if we had any strong personalities on the pitch we'd be doing a lot better. If someone like Ozil had the mentality to match his ability then he'd be a different animal.

Chelsea for example have gone through plenty of managerial upheaval over the years, however their players were always strong enough to get it together amongst themselves.

Who do you think has ensured we don't have any leaders?

The Great Leader himself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqcLjcSloXs

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wenger is a poor coach but the players need to shoulder some responsibility as well, if we had any strong personalities on the pitch we'd be doing a lot better. If someone like Ozil had the mentality to match his ability then he'd be a different animal.

Chelsea for example have gone through plenty of managerial upheaval over the years, however their players were always strong enough to get it together amongst themselves.

Apart from last season of course

[Niall_Quinn]

Apart from last season of course

Last season they suffered under a coach who made it all about himself.

Sounds familiar.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger is a poor coach but the players need to shoulder some responsibility as well, if we had any strong personalities on the pitch we'd be doing a lot better. If someone like Ozil had the mentality to match his ability then he'd be a different animal.

Chelsea for example have gone through plenty of managerial upheaval over the years, however their players were always strong enough to get it together amongst themselves.

Pretty much. We all know Wenger isn't one to micro manage and won't dish out detailed instructions at half time or shout anything from the touchline. So saying that, I can't quite understand why the players haven't worked out for themselves that a player like Giroud can't play tika taka pass and move and is more of an aerial threat. They clocked in enough hours playing with him to work that out. So why after seeing the ball bobble off his feet for the umpteenth time do they keep trying to ping him a ball to feet pass when they know the outcome? It applies all over the pitch. Where is the intelligence to adapt? It's the worst team I've seen assembled by Wenger. Previous teams, you could see two or three players having some sort of understanding of where they want the ball and how they want it delivered. I don't see that from this squad. No team chemistry at all. Flat.

[Niall_Quinn]

Pretty much. We all know Wenger isn't one to micro manage and won't dish out detailed instructions at half time or shout anything from the touchline. So saying that, I can't quite understand why the players haven't worked out for themselves that a player like Giroud can't play tika taka pass and move and is more of an aerial threat. They clocked in enough hours playing with him to work that out. So why after seeing the ball bobble off his feet for the umpteenth time do they keep trying to ping him a ball to feet pass when they know the outcome? It applies all over the pitch. Where is the intelligence to adapt? It's the worst team I've seen assembled by Wenger. Previous teams, you could see two or three players having some sort of understanding of where they want the ball and how they want it delivered. I don't see that from this squad. No team chemistry at all. Flat.

I think, what you are trying to say is, Wenger is a mega incompetent cunt.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ozil's set-up for Alexis Sanchez on Tuesday means he now has more assists than another player since the start of last season. The German wizard has now laid on 27 assists for his team-mates, one more than second-placed Christian Eriksen.

Ozil now has eight goals and eight assists for the season in 31 games, an average of a goal or assist every other game, not bad for a supposed disappearing act.

He also set a Premier League record for chances created in a game, with a massive 12!

For perspective. We need to keep this guy too.

[Power n Glory]

Where has been over the past few months? I can’t get excited about such stats without some context. I keep mentioning Cesc, but those are the sort of stats that impress me. Despite playing a bench role for his team, he still managed make vital contributions to help his team win the league.

[mastermind84]

For perspective. We need to keep this guy too.

He a great great player.


Where has been over the past few months? I can’t get excited about such stats without some context. I keep mentioning Cesc, but those are the sort of stats that impress me. Despite playing a bench role for his team, he still managed make vital contributions to help his team win the league.

You're still wrong

[Power n Glory]

You can’t take those stats seriously. We’re sitting 5th in the table with one game to go and he produces a ‘record breaking’ performance against a recently relegated Sunderland. ;) Do you guys really think this is the right time revisit this thread? Am I wrong to question why he hasn’t performed like this in recent months?

Outside of scoring against Chelsea, Ozil hasn’t scored against a team in the top half all season. (Watford, Swansea, West Ham, Stoke, Middlesbrough). That extends to the cups also where he’s only scored against Basel and Ludogorets in the CL. No goals or assists against PSG or Bayern. Same for the FA Cup. He hasn’t played much but only an assist against Lincoln City.

9 assists in the league – against Sunderland, Spurs, West Ham, West Brom, Burnley, Man City and Southampton. 0 assists in the CL against PSG or Bayern despite playing each team twice.

It’s not just about goals and assists but if this were a lesser player producing such stats, nobody here would make an argument for them to be signed up on a record breaking contract.

[Niall_Quinn]

No, it's not just about goals and assists. We argued that backwards, forwards and sideways last time. It's about his ability to retain and move the ball, despite Wenger's (what shall we call them?)... "tactics". For different reasons, Ozil, Alexis and Ox are vital to this team. It doesn't mean the team is in good shape. It doesn't even mean these players are at the top of their respective games. It simply means we are so short on genuine threats, whether they be fairly consistent as with Alexis, intermittent, as with Ozil, or emerging, as with Ox, we can't afford to lose any of them or we'll slide even further.

In addition, the transfer market has gotten even crazier. The £40mill and £35mill we paid respectively for Ozil and Alexis wouldn't be nearly enough to replace these guys unless we got super fortunate or Wenger suddenly recovered his ability to spot a talent.

Finally there's the message losing our star players will send. If Ozil, Alexis and Ox walk (and I think at least 2 of them will unless we act decisively) then forget it, we're back to square one or maybe square zero given Wenger's accelerating inability to cope in this league, let alone Europe.

Every indicator screams at the need to keep Ozil - the question asked in the title of this thread. Yes, it's bloody obvious, we need him. The goals and assists ice the cake. Even if he wasn't scoring and assisting, we'd still need him because we'd be worse without him and it's highly unlikely the bunch in charge will spend adequately to replace him. Even if they did, the opportunity cost would be the striker we have needed forever. I suspect we'll stick with Giroud when it all winds out in August, but that's a different subject and that's the same old Wenger.

Wenger is staying. We're already in serious trouble for next season as a result. We can't afford to lose our best players on top of that.

[Power n Glory]

t's about his ability to retain and move the ball, despite Wenger's (what shall we call them?)... "tactics".

For £42m and the wages he's on and wants, you don't think that can be replaced? We've had players like Nasri and Hleb that can do that. Cazorla can do that. Iwobi can do that. Not a good argument. If that's all we need, it can be replaced with ease.

Losing a marquee signing is what's damaging but his output....easily replaced. I'd take Cesc off Chelsea's hand without a doubt.

[Niall_Quinn]

Okay, fair enough. There's no discussing this with you. You have this Ozil bug. Anyone who wants to replace Ozil with Cesc really hasn't thought things through. The chavs have though, which is why they are trying to offload him.

Giroud and Gibbs. btw.

[Power n Glory]

Okay, fair enough. There's no discussing this with you. You have this Ozil bug. Anyone who wants to replace Ozil with Cesc really hasn't thought things through. The chavs have though, which is why they are trying to offload him.

Giroud and Gibbs. btw.

Answer the question. Can we find a player for £42m that has the ability to retain possession and move it forward? You're really not thinking straight with that argument because our possession game has gone to shit and we have players and have had players with that ability and more.

[Özim]

Answer the question. Can we find a player for £42m that has the ability to retain possession and move it forward? You're really not thinking straight with that argument because our possession game has gone to shit and we have players and have had players with that ability and more.

To be fair we'd get nowhere near 42 million for him, he has 1 year left on his contract.

[Power n Glory]

You have this Ozil bug

Let’s set this one straight. I started this thread early in the season and now that we’re at the end of the season, what has he produced?

You made a weak attempt to post up some meaningless stats one game away from the end of the season when we’re 5th in the league. How are you proving me wrong? Keep quiet and say nothing more if you don’t like what I have to say. You keep revisiting this topic. Accept that it’s over.

[Niall_Quinn]

Answer the question. Can we find a player for £42m that has the ability to retain possession and move it forward? You're really not thinking straight with that argument because our possession game has gone to shit and we have players and have had players with that ability and more.

You've deliberately diluted my original response so no, in the context you have created, I won't answer. Instead I refer back to my original post.

Our possession game is not shit. We excel at it, unfortunately. It's our passing game that has gone to shit because of our possession game. Wenger obviously values possession above all else. He's taken all the ambition out of the players, except Alexis who he can't seem to control or indoctrinate. Which is why Alexis loses the ball more than anyone. It must infuriate Wenger. But, of course, when you are ambitious and try for the more lucrative stuff over the mundane you will win some, lose some.

Gibbs is a good example. When he was a kid he'd take his man on down the line. Not always to great success, but he had ambition in his play. Now he'll pick the safe option almost every time. If Wenger didn't want that he wouldn't be picking him. The same worrying trait is developing in Bellerin. Walcott is a poster child for the problem. Ozil is far more ambitious when he plays centrally. When he's wide he has fuck all to pass to unless a teammate comes across so they can do that tip tap routine.

Another example, Xhaka. We've seen how effective he can be with the long pass. But mostly he too is consigned to those damnable midfield triangles.

We play a ludicrous system. The ball will go to the CB. Out to the FB. Up to the WB. Back to the CB. Into the middle. Straight back. Wide again. Then eventually to Alexis, Ozil or Ox who will try to do something with it if they can. They look up, see Bif 20 yards behind the play ambling along without a care. So back it goes to allow Bif to saunter up the pitch at leisure. Where he promptly finds a defender to be marked by. Back to goal, as always. A fucking horrible player to have in the team when you have the likes of Ozil and Alexis on the pitch.

Wenger loves this. Keep the tempo slow, that's the key. Vital to do that so the accuracy can be maintained. Then tip, tap, tip, tap. Keep that possession. The theory, I suppose, is to drag the opposition around the pitch until an opening presents itself. Of course the slow tempo ensures the opening never arrives because it's all so comfortable for even the most mediocre of defences. Insanity, tapped out on the pitch match after match.

Occasionally though, for whatever reason - maybe rebellion, we inject a bit of pace. 5-10 minutes in a match maybe. And that's when the goals come and the surprise bonus of entertainment is delivered. Anti-Wengerball. Faster, more direct, players running rather than walking. And THAT's when Ozil, Alexis and Ox come into their own - and sometimes even Ramsey. You could distill our season down to maybe 2 hours of decent play. The rest is Wengerball.

Now if you want Ozil to play like that all the time - have a word with Wenger.

As for Cazorla, great player of course. But to suggest he's a potential replacement is to ignore the reality of his past few seasons. If these Ozil replacements are so readily available, name one. For the money we'd spend.

[Niall_Quinn]

Let’s set this one straight. I started this thread early in the season and now that we’re at the end of the season, what has he produced?

You made a weak attempt to post up some meaningless stats one game away from the end of the season when we’re 5th in the league. How are you proving me wrong? Keep quiet and say nothing more if you don’t like what I have to say. You keep revisiting this topic. Accept that it’s over.

Dear me, on two counts.

No, no, no, the stats are meaningless.

Shut up! Don't speak. La la la - I can't hear you!

[Niall_Quinn]

To be fair we'd get nowhere near 42 million for him, he has 1 year left on his contract.

That's just another traditional club problem. Letting the contracts of our star players wind down. We're experts at it. Suppose we'll sign Gibbs for another 5 years though.

Wenger's a master cheapskate. He'll bring insufficient talent into the squad and mix it with dross. Then he'll make extortionate demands on the talent of a few. Cesc, RvC, Ozil, Alexis. He's always looking for somebody to compensate for his skinflint methods. We have no money, we have no money, we have no money - yes I agree with raising the ticket prices to be the most expensive in the world. He's a con artist.

You're right though. We'll get fucked again on Alexis' fee due to contract mismanagement. The players won't sign because they see no sign of ambition here. What's their incentive to sign early? Ox's contract is winding down too. I can see him tearing down the line for Liverpool, ripping us up next season. Alexis at the chavs? At least Ozil will go abroad I would think.

[Power n Glory]

Occasionally though, for whatever reason - maybe rebellion, we inject a bit of pace. 5-10 minutes in a match maybe. And that's when the goals come and the surprise bonus of entertainment is delivered. Anti-Wengerball. Faster, more direct, players running rather than walking. And THAT's when Ozil, Alexis and Ox come into their own - and sometimes even Ramsey. You could distill our season down to maybe 2 hours of decent play. The rest is Wengerball.

What do you think Wenger has said or done for Ozil to produce his latest performance?

[Niall_Quinn]

What do you think Wenger has said or done for Ozil to produce his latest performance?

Ozil's "latest" performance? What, in particular, are you referring to? Do you think Ozil played differently in some way?

[Özim]

Ozil really doesn't work in a team that plays tippy tappy football, he's a player who is at his best when at pace and thus a counter attacking style is much more suitable, with Wenger in charge he just doesn't fit in, despite this he still creates chances...now sure he hasn't been great this season but I put that down to Wenger, the style of play and the fact we lack any kind of leaders to push players like him as well (he seems to me like a player that needs leadership around him to prosper).

Under a different manager I reckon we'd see a different Ozil, at Arsenal he's wasted, though still worth keeping for his assists alone, fact is for the money we'd get we wouldn't be able to replace him suitably.

[Özim]

That's just another traditional club problem. Letting the contracts of our star players wind down. We're experts at it. Suppose we'll sign Gibbs for another 5 years though.

Wenger's a master cheapskate. He'll bring insufficient talent into the squad and mix it with dross. Then he'll make extortionate demands on the talent of a few. Cesc, RvC, Ozil, Alexis. He's always looking for somebody to compensate for his skinflint methods. We have no money, we have no money, we have no money - yes I agree with raising the ticket prices to be the most expensive in the world. He's a con artist.

You're right though. We'll get fucked again on Alexis' fee due to contract mismanagement. The players won't sign because they see no sign of ambition here. What's their incentive to sign early? Ox's contract is winding down too. I can see him tearing down the line for Liverpool, ripping us up next season. Alexis at the chavs? At least Ozil will go abroad I would think.

Yup we do it time and time again, let our top players run down their contracts, frankly if we can't get them to commit with 2 years left we may as well sell them and find someone else (we're unlikely to replace them with someone suitable, but logically that's what we should do).

What we should be doing is getting them signed up (which if we were ambitious and the club was progressing wouldn't be too much of an issue, we're not of course which is where the problem lies), if we can't then sell them and sign another top class player as a replacement.

You're right though, Wenger is cheap (another freebie coming in the summer I see) and has no ambition, so it's hard to get players to commit or keep them happy, why would anyone want to play for a 2nd rate manager whose idea of success is being also rans?

This club never learns it's lessons, I put that down to Wenger as well, the guy never learns a thing, the same scenario can take place 20 times and he'll still persist with failed techniques, as a club we're a failure.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ozil really doesn't work in a team that plays tippy tappy football, he's a player who is at his best when at pace and thus a counter attacking style is much more suitable, with Wenger in charge he just doesn't fit in, despite this he still creates chances...now sure he hasn't been great this season but I put that down to Wenger, the style of play and the fact we lack any kind of leaders to push players like him as well (he seems to me like a player that needs leadership around him to prosper).

Under a different manager I reckon we'd see a different Ozil, at Arsenal he's wasted, though still worth keeping for his assists alone, fact is for the money we'd get we wouldn't be able to replace him suitably.

I have no doubts about that whatsoever. That was the huge hope this time around, that we'd see a different manager. I guess everything else is pretty meaningless anyway for as long as Wenger hangs around. Asking if we need Ozil, I suppose, is legitimate in this one respect. Ozil or no Ozil, we're not going to progress if Wenger stays. Alexis, no Alexis. Kos, Bellerin,.. name anyone. We won't be progressing whether these players stay, go, get injured. Not if Wenger stays.

Fuck - Wenger has to go. He just has to.

[Power n Glory]

Ozil's "latest" performance? What, in particular, are you referring to? Do you think Ozil played differently in some way?

I have no idea. I didn't watch the game and neither did you but for some reason you decided to revisit this with these stats.

What do the stats tell you. Why highlight in this particular game that it's essential we keep Ozil?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think regardless of what Ozil does or does not give us, I think it's essential for the club to keep him now

The fact is Sanchez is going to go in the summer, that's going to be an incredibly bitter pill for fans to swallow if that selfish old ouisseau stays, but Ozil whether people rate him or not is a shirt seller and is one of our two high profile players.

If we lose Ozil and Sanchez, there will be a shit storm raining down on this club the likes of which it has not seen in thirty years or more.

And it won't just be the fans reaction, the sponsors will not like it.


It might have been acceptable when we had the figurative begging bowl but not now.

[Niall_Quinn]

I have no idea. I didn't watch the game and neither did you but for some reason you decided to revisit this with these stats.

What do the stats tell you. Why highlight in this particular game that it's essential we keep Ozil?

Those stats were in a post match summary so I posted them in a relevant thread here. Same for some stats that were relayed on Alexis, in that particular thread. It's a message board about Arsenal. I often post Arsenal related stuff here.

[Power n Glory]

A direct quote.


Ozil's set-up for Alexis Sanchez on Tuesday means he now has more assists than another player since the start of last season. The German wizard has now laid on 27 assists for his team-mates, one more than second-placed Christian Eriksen.

Ozil now has eight goals and eight assists for the season in 31 games, an average of a goal or assist every other game, not bad for a supposed disappearing act.

He also set a Premier League record for chances created in a game, with a massive 12!


For perspective. We need to keep this guy too.

What's the perspective? We're at the end of the season looking unlikely to qualify for the CL and you thought it was a good idea to post this up?

[Niall_Quinn]

A direct quote.





What's the perspective? We're at the end of the season looking unlikely to qualify for the CL and you thought it was a good idea to post this up?

You're so triggered by this, aren't you? This is a freaking thread about Ozil. Those stats relate to Ozil. I'm thinking you are viewing this as some sort of personal attack. No. It's a response to a title conjured up ages ago that suggested we don't need Ozil. Well, everything says we do. Including the stats.

[Power n Glory]

You're so triggered by this, aren't you? This is a freaking thread about Ozil. Those stats relate to Ozil. I'm thinking you are viewing this as some sort of personal attack. No. It's a response to a title conjured up ages ago that suggested we don't need Ozil. Well, everything says we do. Including the stats.

This is like someone posting up our recent victories and trying to make a case for us needing Wenger to sign a new contract.

Of course I'm triggered. It's a message board, I started the thread and we've been going back and forth for a whole season.

We may revisit this again when the season is over. If Ozil is able to produce a 'record breaking' performance against a relegated Sunderland and doesn't disappear in big matches, I expect to see him play well in our final two games against Everton and Chelsea. If a player can only turn it on against teams in the bottom half of the table, we don't need them.

I don't want excuses about the wrong system and blah blah, because he's not one of the players that's not being played in their best position or a limited player like a Giroud or Theo. That's what I find funny. Even the most limited players here that have to play in a system that doesn't suit them have managed to turn up more against top opposition despite being very flawed technically. Theo and Giroud are two classic examples this year.

[Penguin]

I agree that Ozil should be doing more in the big games, but he's hardly the only one that goes missing is he? The real question is how many of our players do turn up in those games? The only name that comes to mind is Sanchez but even he often gets accused of disappearing.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is like someone posting up our recent victories and trying to make a case for us needing Wenger to sign a new contract.

Of course I'm triggered. It's a message board, I started the thread and we've been going back and forth for a whole season.

We may revisit this again when the season is over. If Ozil is able to produce a 'record breaking' performance against a relegated Sunderland and doesn't disappear in big matches, I expect to see him play well in our final two games against Everton and Chelsea. If a player can only turn it on against teams in the bottom half of the table, we don't need them.

I don't want excuses about the wrong system and blah blah, because he's not one of the players that's not being played in their best position or a limited player like a Giroud or Theo. That's what I find funny. Even the most limited players here that have to play in a system that doesn't suit them have managed to turn up more against top opposition despite being very flawed technically. Theo and Giroud are two classic examples this year.

http://e2.365dm.com/16/02/16-9/20/mesut-ozil-arsenal-bournemouth_3412259.jpg?20160207152426

[Power n Glory]

:popcorn:

[Niall_Quinn]

This is about Keown sucking Wenger's cock - has nothing to do with Ozil. Keown even has to admit that by the end of his slavish grovel-piece.

[selassie]

He won't be our concern by the end of the season. The fact that nobody has bitten when he is nearing the end of his contract speaks volumes.

[Niall_Quinn]

The real problem is figures like Keown defended Wenger at the key moment when it would still have been possible to get rid of the cunt, maybe. All that shit about Wenger "deserving" this or that. You deserve fuck all else when you just got paid 8 million quid.

The real story of Saturday was not Ozil or Xhaka or Ramsey - it was Wenger. His bizarre team selections, his incompetent tactics. His decade of failure and his inability to do a damn thing about it, in fact every season he makes it worse.

So we have Gerrard and Keown going, oh, look over there, and pointing in the opposite direction to the ever guilty Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

The real problem is figures like Keown defended Wenger at the key moment when it would still have been possible to get rid of the cunt, maybe. All that shit about Wenger "deserving" this or that. You deserve fuck all else when you just got paid 8 million quid.

The real story of Saturday was not Ozil or Xhaka or Ramsey - it was Wenger. His bizarre team selections, his incompetent tactics. His decade of failure and his inability to do a damn thing about it, in fact every season he makes it worse.

So we have Gerrard and Keown going, oh, look over there, and pointing in the opposite direction to the ever guilty Wenger.

How's the opinion of a pundit the real problem? Kroenke isn't listening to Keown's opinion when it comes to deciding Wenger's future.

It comes back to under performing players, a shit manager and an incompetent Board.

[Niall_Quinn]

How's the opinion of a pundit the real problem? Kroenke isn't listening to Keown's opinion when it comes to deciding Wenger's future.

It comes back to under performing players, a shit manager and an incompetent Board.

The real problem with this particular hype storm, all plucked out of thin air by Gerrard and Keown. Neither of them has the bollocks to call Wenger out, and Henry barely has the nerve to do it either.

[Power n Glory]

The real problem with this particular hype storm, all plucked out of thin air by Gerrard and Keown. Neither of them has the bollocks to call Wenger out, and Henry barely has the nerve to do it either.

Who cares about their opinion on Wenger if it can't change anything? I could say the same. Pointing towards the pundits just distracts from what's happening on the pitch.

[Özim]

Got to say Keown is so biased towards Wenger, he's always praising him and never really says it as it is, he's always finding ways to seemingly point the finger at others so you can't really take his opinion seriously.

Everyone knows Wenger should have left ages ago, this season is already panning out predictably, Keown is all too happy to point fingers at the players rather than Wenger though.

Trouble is there's only one constant in these many years of failure, yes the players are also to blame, but one man signs the players, sets the tactics, forces them to play a certain way and motivates (or doesn't).

All the problems with the team stem back to one man, sadly Keown refuses to acknowledge that.

[Niall_Quinn]

Who cares about their opinion on Wenger if it can't change anything? I could say the same. Pointing towards the pundits just distracts from what's happening on the pitch.

Not the pundits. Keown. And the still not inconsiderable number of people who believe Wenger deserves something after all these years of fucking up. The FIRST place you go if you want to analyse that loss is Wenger. Full backs playing in the centre, right backs on the left, natural defenders for those positions sat on the bench or dropped. Moving on to midfield, another Wenger shambles and Ramsey gets plenty of stick but there's no way he consistently abandons his post without the blessing of Wenger. Or else Wenger is such a shitty manager he can't see the problem. Lacazette's role. Subbing him shortly after he hammers the ball into the net when everyone else had missed. Bringing Giroud on but sticking with the same pit-a-pat bullshit. Sending Walcott on to get no touches and then claiming he was to provided crosses for Bif. What a fucking arsehole.

There's SO much to talk about regarding Wenger's bizarre and incompetent antics on Saturday. You could spend weeks analysing it and still come away shaking your head. That was the number one, two, three through a hundred main points about that match. Wenger's bullshit.

Keown conveniently misses all that, or glosses over it, and picks out Ozil. Stealing a living, anonymous, blah, blah, easy media copy paste shite. And even if Keown wants to swallow Wenger's cock whole, he could still have identified Welbeck, who couldn't hit the goal if he was standing in it. Or Xhaka, who had a shocker. Or Ramsey, who has to be the most irresponsible player on the pitch. Walcott, who I think got 3 touches. Bellerin, who was understandably crap in his outlandish role. Or how about Alexis, who couldn't be bothered to turn up at all because he's looking to escape from Wenger.

No. Pick Ozil because that story writes itself. Lazy. Embarrassing. Easy money. Isn't that what he accuses Ozil of? Stealing a living? He's not the only one.

Nothing changes at this club until that cock Wenger is gone. DOesn't matter who gets signed, who leaves, who plays. We know how it's going to go and if Keown wants to add something to the debate he should find his balls and start pointing out the gigantic elephant taking a dump in the middle of the room. If he's a fan then help the rest of us by speaking up.

[Power n Glory]

NQ is the Keown in this case. :lol: Rather analyse or take on board some of the criticism directed at Ozil, he'd rather point at Wenger and pile it all on his doorstep. It's the same example I made about Welbeck and Xhaka, It shouldn't take a coach to micromanage his every action on the pitch. You either have it or you don't. He has to work harder on defence and take more of a leading role in the game. If you haven't got the mentality or skill to do the job required, you need to be benched.

[Niall_Quinn]

NQ is the Keown in this case. :lol: Rather analyse or take on board some of the criticism directed at Ozil, he'd rather point at Wenger and pile it all on his doorstep. It's the same example I made about Welbeck and Xhaka, It shouldn't take a coach to micromanage his every action on the pitch. You either have it or you don't. He has to work harder on defence and take more of a leading role in the game. If you haven't got the mentality or skill to do the job required, you need to be benched.

:wacko:

Of course I'd rather talk about Wenger than analyse Ozil's performance. Who wouldn't, except maybe Neil Ashton? Singling out Ozil in that last game while refusing to give any significance to the monumental Wenger fuck ups is like mentioning the wheels need balancing as your airbag deploys a split second before the catastrophic head-on collision.

Sure, Ozil wasn't great. He wasn't anywhere close to being the worst player on the pitch. Nothing much he tried came off, same as the others. So what do we learn from that? Maybe if we had better players, a more organised team and a plan we'd do better? Analysis complete.

Now then, that other thing. Wenger. Despite Keown's best efforts, that fuck up cost us 3 points again. Him, first and foremost. And if Gerrard and Keown are under some fantastical illusion that any one player can rescue us from Wenger then they really aren't up to their jobs. Not even RvC at the height of his powers or Alexis busting blood vessels can touch Wenger.

[Dicks and chicks]

Fuck him

[Power n Glory]

He won't be our concern by the end of the season. The fact that nobody has bitten when he is nearing the end of his contract speaks volumes.

:gp: Spot on.

[mastermind84]

I really do feel bad for English football fans who just stick to what the lazy media members say and regurgitate.


Ozil was easily the best Arsenal player on Saturday.

Ozil will be gone next season and Arsenal will be worse for it. (unless Wenger gets the fuck out)

[Power n Glory]

I really do feel bad for English football fans who just stick to what the lazy media members say and regurgitate.


Ozil was easily the best Arsenal player on Saturday.

Ozil will be gone next season and Arsenal will be worse for it. (unless Wenger gets the fuck out)

Coming from the man that says scoring goals is overrated and it’s down to luck. :rolleyes: Welbeck must have broken his fair share of mirrors to be that unlucky. ;)

[Power n Glory]

Ozil was easily the best Arsenal player on Saturday.

I don't think Ozil was really poor but easily our best?

I'm going with Ox. In the first half he should have had three assists. One pass over the top for Welbeck that was hit straight at the keeper. Another over the top for Ramsey that was saved and the pass the pass to Bellerin that should have won us a penalty.

[mastermind84]

Coming from the man that says scoring goals is overrated and it’s down to luck. :rolleyes: Welbeck must have broken his fair share of mirrors to be that unlucky. ;)
It is. A player just has to be in a position to score a lot of times. That's the talent.

Welbeck is never in position to score, he is useless as an attacker.


I don't think Ozil was really poor but easily our best?

I'm going with Ox. In the first half he should have had three assists. One pass over the top for Welbeck that was hit straight at the keeper. Another over the top for Ramsey that was saved and the pass the pass to Bellerin that should have won us a penalty.
You like Oxlade because he runs hard. He never actually does anything.

Ozil had like 118 touches and created 4 chances and only misplaced 5 passes on Saturday, yet Kroenke and Gerrard, the clowns you are citing and praising for their thorough analysis, are mad he did not run more.

Stuff like that is why England will never win. The country's brain trust loves busy bodies.

[Power n Glory]

It is. A player just has to be in a position to score a lot of times. That's the talent.

Welbeck is never in position to score, he is useless as an attacker.


You like Oxlade because he runs hard. He never actually does anything.

Ozil had like 118 touches and created 4 chances and only misplaced 5 passes on Saturday, yet Kroenke and Gerrard, the clowns you are citing and praising for their thorough analysis, are mad he did not run more.

Stuff like that is why England will never win. The country's brain trust loves busy bodies.

If you watched the game you’d see that Welbeck has probably had about 5 or 6 chances to score. His understanding as a striker and movement is piss poor but with the luck he’s had getting in the right position so often, it’s amazing he fluffs his lines so often. Again, I have no idea if you’re watching football or even if you get coverage where you’re from, but you’re missing how many times he fucks it up. Finishing isn’t down to luck.

This chance creation stat is what I also find funny. People tend to rattle it off every time we speak of Ozil. Outside of the chance he created for Bellerin, show me a chance he created that lead to a clear goal scoring opportunity that the striker fluffed their lines for. I mention Ox because he created 3 of our best opportunities to score. One for Welbeck, one for Ramsey and the other for Bellerin which should have won us a penalty. Not a huge fan of Ox. Very inconsistent but credit where it’s due.

But back to chance creation. You do realise that a chance creation counts as for any pass that leads to a shot on goal ; on or off target. So for example, even if Ozil does a sideways pass to a player outside the box that then decides to blaze it from 35 yards well over the bar, that counts as a chance created. Even if he passes it to a player crowed by defenders and the shot gets blocked, that’s counted as a chance created. It says nothing of the quality. The best chance Ozil created is the one that fell to Bellerin that resulted in a tame shot straight to the keeper. What were the other 3 chances he created? Did I miss them?

As said, Ox created a lot that should have at least put as ahead in the first half. Giroud created two really good chances when he came on. That one for Welbeck where he miskicked the ball when surrounded by defenders and the one ruled Lacazette laced in but was ruled offside. Even Monreal created a chance for Giroud with that header in the final minutes.

Also, it’s NQ that seems obsessed with what pundits have to say about Ozil. I’m not praising them or even care what they have to say. I prefer to hearing opinions of fans that actually watch football. I’ll give an example.

[Power n Glory]

Read this some weeks back. Not far off from what I've said here last year. I'd also say it's worth listening the latest Arsenal Vision Podcast that Stillman features on. Breaks down the dynamic between Xhaka, Ozil and Ramsey perfectly.


Everybody Hates Özil
Tim Stillman
July 27, 2017


Arsenal’s summer has been dominated by the dual contract sagas of Alexis Sanchez and Mesut Özil. The situation of the former has ignited far more debate, rumour and innuendo than the latter. With Alexis involved in Confederations Cup duty, the man himself has literally been a high resolution presence in Arsenal’s summer at times.

Meanwhile, Mesut Özil’s contract is also in the 12 month red zone, yet the level of water cooler talk around his future has been considerably quieter. Özil was spared Confederations Cup duty with Germany and took a holiday in the US. Ordinarily, this would be an opportune time for a player and his representatives to begin wafting the smoke of transfer rumour- either as an act of leverage, or because they genuinely want to find a new club.

The differing level of noise around the Gunners’ blockbuster duo reflects their on pitch personas. Alexis is all hustle, bustle and brow sweat. Whilst Özil is an ephemeral, almost ghostly presence on the margins of the game. His USP is to creep unnoticed into nooks and crannies of space. Alexis’ situation is very much centre stage, whilst Özil’s is silent, lurking, but still undoubtedly there. It all feels very familiar.

The German is at the clutch phase of his current deal, he is a 28-year old World Cup winner and one of the first names on the teamsheet for the German national team. So why hasn’t there been more transfer speculation? The simplest answer seems to be that he has not generated an awful lot of interest- especially as he is reportedly holding out for a salary of around £300,000 a week.

Özil turns 29 in October and his next contract will be the last optimal deal he can expect in his career. The chance of sharp physical decline any time soon seems unlikely, given his style. Mesut’s game is built on appreciation of space, a quality which, if anything, ought to enhance as he approaches his 30s.

Mesut’s wage demands might be giving teams cause to back off at this point in time, but he knows full well that £300,000 a week which be much more agreeable to his suitors if they do not have to pay a transfer fee. So his negotiating hand remains pretty strong, even if Arsenal could point to an apparent lack of interest as reason to rebuff his estimation of his own worth.

But why is there such a lack of interest in an elite player in his prime years? I think the most obvious reason is tactical. The reality is that few teams play with a pure number 10 in Özil’s mould at the moment. Teams often adopt hard working advanced midfielders that harry and press the opponent’s deep lying midfielders, much like Christian Eriksen at Spurs. Eriksen is a creator, but he serves an important off ball function too.

Or else, top teams tend to play with fairly tight midfield 3s, with one slightly advanced runner whose job is to arrive in the box late and finish off moves. Arsenal already have one of these in Aaron Ramsey, but his Gunners career has, arguably, been stunted by the presence of a pure trequartista like Mesut Özil. The German is a player that would not easily fit into any of Europe’s elite teams at the moment, given their shape and structure.

Özil has proven tough for Arsene to accommodate at Arsenal. He has largely played at the head of a midfield three, but his desire to drift away from the ball to find space means he often disconnects himself from the other central midfield players. Özil is not the most rigorous defensively, so he does not exactly sprint back to support them and his pressing game from the front is not especially fastidious.

At the beginning of Özil’s second season at Arsenal, Wenger briefly moved him out to the left, before the player and his representatives planted several stories in the press suggesting that he was unsatisfied with the role. The signing of Özil brought the curtain down on the era of austerity and once again Wenger found himself handling elite talents, which can be tricky when trying to create a functioning collective.

Diaby and Denilson don’t really complain when you put them out on the wing for a couple of games. A talent like Mesut Özil is a little more high maintenance. Playing Mesut in his natural position obviously ekes the best out of him and it keeps him out of the newspapers, but it carries a debt of sorts. Other clubs will have observed this and wonder whether it is worth the hassle of reimagining their setup to mould it in his image. Not dissimilar to Cesc Fabregas, whom Barcelona and Chelsea have sacrificed during his spells at each club.

That said, Bayern’s decision to sign James Rodriguez from Real Madrid was curious. James’ best position, like Özil, is as a pure number 10. The Colombian gave Madrid a tactical problem they could not solve. With Bale, Benzema and Ronaldo already in the forward line, they could not play a true number 10 as well without significantly upsetting the balance.

Since benching James and introducing defensive midfielder Casemiro in his stead, Real have toppled Barca in Spain and in Europe. Bayern do not play with an obvious number 10, so their interest in James is curious and suggests they may be entertaining a change of shape (or else they may give him a wider starting point). But it still begs the question as to why Bayern opted for James ahead of Özil.

There is still a suggestion that Mesut remains mercurial, he drifts in and out of form as often as he drifts in and out of games. (This, by the way, was also true of Dennis Bergkamp, who had more quiet periods than nostalgia permits us to remember). Özil is a creative and inspiration can be a fickle mistress, it can elude you for months at a time.

It could be that Özil’s periods of ‘writer’s block’ make him a risky acquisition for elite clubs. He doesn’t seem to have inspired any sort of interest from Manchester City, who already have David Silva, or Chelsea, who have handed out all of their creative licensing to Eden Hazard. Manchester United still struggle to carve out a niche for Juan Mata.

Barca and Real have the sort of front threes that require little in the manner of assistance. Besides which, their respective shapes could not withstand the liberty of another player free from defensive duties. As mentioned, Bayern have just acquired James Rodriguez. So Özil’s situation looks deadlocked, unless he breaks the current impasse by signing a new contract, which he suggested recently he would like to do.

Maybe Özil’s intention has always been to stay at Arsenal and he and his representatives have therefore simply not courted interest from others and planted stories to that effect. But even if that’s the case, he is clearly trying to juice the club for more generous terms and it’s unusual not to use the interest of others to that end.

Anecdotally, Mesut does seem more likely to commit than Alexis and if the Chilean leaves, Arsenal are over a barrel when it comes to the German’s demands. They simply cannot afford to lose both of their star players on Bosman deals, at the very least the sting of losing one will need to be soothed by the balm of new terms for the other. I suspect Özil’s future will not be resolved until Alexis’ is and the club have no wiggle room left in the thumb war of negotiation.

[Niall_Quinn]

If you watched the game you’d see that Welbeck has probably had about 5 or 6 chances to score. His understanding as a striker and movement is piss poor but with the luck he’s had getting in the right position so often, it’s amazing he fluffs his lines so often. Again, I have no idea if you’re watching football or even if you get coverage where you’re from, but you’re missing how many times he fucks it up. Finishing isn’t down to luck.

This chance creation stat is what I also find funny. People tend to rattle it off every time we speak of Ozil. Outside of the chance he created for Bellerin, show me a chance he created that lead to a clear goal scoring opportunity that the striker fluffed their lines for. I mention Ox because he created 3 of our best opportunities to score. One for Welbeck, one for Ramsey and the other for Bellerin which should have won us a penalty. Not a huge fan of Ox. Very inconsistent but credit where it’s due.

But back to chance creation. You do realise that a chance creation counts as for any pass that leads to a shot on goal ; on or off target. So for example, even if Ozil does a sideways pass to a player outside the box that then decides to blaze it from 35 yards well over the bar, that counts as a chance created. Even if he passes it to a player crowed by defenders and the shot gets blocked, that’s counted as a chance created. It says nothing of the quality. The best chance Ozil created is the one that fell to Bellerin that resulted in a tame shot straight to the keeper. What were the other 3 chances he created? Did I miss them?

As said, Ox created a lot that should have at least put as ahead in the first half. Giroud created two really good chances when he came on. That one for Welbeck where he miskicked the ball when surrounded by defenders and the one ruled Lacazette laced in but was ruled offside. Even Monreal created a chance for Giroud with that header in the final minutes.

Also, it’s NQ that seems obsessed with what pundits have to say about Ozil. I’m not praising them or even care what they have to say. I prefer to hearing opinions of fans that actually watch football. I’ll give an example.

This gets more bizarre by the posting. This thread was dead until Gerrard and Keown opened their stereotypical and subservient traps. They are the sorts obsessing on Ozil by regurgitating the lazy and entirely unfounded media narrative started by Ashton and his cohorts the moment Ozil arrived at Arsenal. To respond is to obsess, it seems. We expect shit from the media hacks, of course. But it's sad to see Arsenal fans lapping it up.

[Niall_Quinn]

Read this some weeks back. Not far off from what I've said here last year. I'd also say it's worth listening the latest Arsenal Vision Podcast that Stillman features on. Breaks down the dynamic between Xhaka, Ozil and Ramsey perfectly.

An article rife with contradictions and speculation. Although the author at least accepts there may be various sides to the story other than lazy, stealing a living, won't run. Perhaps he reviewed the evidence before he started typing, which is more that can be said for the lazy turds hamfisting together the daily sports sections or the poor fools who read it and believe it. For instance, perhaps Bayern "chose" Rodriguez over Ozil because Madrid said yes, he's for sale, and Arsenal said, no way, fuck off.

[Power n Glory]

This gets more bizarre by the posting. This thread was dead until Gerrard and Keown opened their stereotypical and subservient traps. They are the sorts obsessing on Ozil by regurgitating the lazy and entirely unfounded media narrative started by Ashton and his cohorts the moment Ozil arrived at Arsenal. To respond is to obsess, it seems. We expect shit from the media hacks, of course. But it's sad to see Arsenal fans lapping it up.

I follow off the reaction on Twitter more than anything else. I only did the :popcorn: emoji because I said the same thing last year.


I’ve seen a lot of talk of Ozil checking out early for the season and looking for the exit but do we really want him here if that’s the case? I’m usually on side with the players when it comes to this sort of issue but not in this case. I don’t think Ozil has done anything to warrant such high praise.

People point to what he did last season as proof of his quality but I’m still not convinced. After Christmas he checked out for the rest of the season. When I compare that purple patch/run of good form with other players, such as Ramsey 2013/14 season (34 games, 16 goals, 10 assists) or even Theo’s run (43 games, 21 goals, 16 assists), I’d take either of those guys replicating that form over Ozil’s 45 games, 8 goals and 20 assists.

Maybe he’s hung over from the Euros and needs to get up to speed but it’s disheartening to see us play games without Giroud and have all out pace up front and he’s not threading anyone through. His influence on the game has to extend beyond one decent pass. The chances he’s creating aren’t even killer through balls that sets us up with chance after chance. Heck, against Southampton the stats will say he created 4 chances but not one of those were clear cut one on ones. I really don’t rate him as a playmaker and won’t lose any sleep if he leaves. He’s not essential and I’ll have to see a massive improvement to think otherwise.

Despite having a more clinical striker up front, I've yet to see Ozil thread him through and it was the same last season when we swapped out Giroud for players with more pace. We can live without Ozil in the team. Sanchez is more important. Same as what I said last season. Arsenal Fan TV ran a poll and it was almost 50/50 for people that wanted Ozil to stay over him being sold.

[Power n Glory]

An article rife with contradictions and speculation. Although the author at least accepts there may be various sides to the story other than lazy, stealing a living, won't run. Perhaps he reviewed the evidence before he started typing, which is more that can be said for the lazy turds hamfisting together the daily sports sections or the poor fools who read it and believe it. For instance, perhaps Bayern "chose" Rodriguez over Ozil because Madrid said yes, he's for sale, and Arsenal said, no way, fuck off.


I think the article and the key points went over your head.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think the article and the key points went over your head.

That must be it. I'm simply failing to spot Stillman's pearls hidden in the hacking and hoofing.

[Niall_Quinn]

I follow off the reaction on Twitter more than anything else. I only did the :popcorn: emoji because I said the same thing last year.



Despite having a more clinical striker up front, I've yet to see Ozil thread him through and it was the same last season when we swapped out Giroud for players with more pace. We can live without Ozil in the team. Sanchez is more important. Same as what I said last season. Arsenal Fan TV ran a poll and it was almost 50/50 for people that wanted Ozil to stay over him being sold.

Thus proving that an increasing number of people prefer to let the media do their thinking for them. There's not a shred of evidence to support what the media claims regarding Ozil, but if you repeat the lie enough times then weak minded individuals will endorse it. With Alexis on the way out, Wenger refusing to spend as usual and the prestige of this club slipping deeper into the shitter on a weekly basis, of course it would be a great idea to get rid of Ozil. Those 49% (if we want to dispense with "almost") are geniuses.

[mastermind84]

If you watched the game you’d see that Welbeck has probably had about 5 or 6 chances to score. His understanding as a striker and movement is piss poor but with the luck he’s had getting in the right position so often, it’s amazing he fluffs his lines so often. Again, I have no idea if you’re watching football or even if you get coverage where you’re from, but you’re missing how many times he fucks it up. Finishing isn’t down to luck.
The best strikers in the world convert about 25% of their chances.

When I say luck. I dont mean a ball of the shin and it goes in type of luck. I mean, the conditions have to be ideal. You of course have to have hte composure to put the ball in the net, but a lot of stuff is out of the goal scorers hands. That is all I mean.

Welbeck doesnt have any composure and is poor technically. That is why he will never be a goalscorer.

We would see matches at 6-5. 8-7, etc of it was just bang-bang its in.


This chance creation stat is what I also find funny. People tend to rattle it off every time we speak of Ozil. Outside of the chance he created for Bellerin, show me a chance he created that lead to a clear goal scoring opportunity that the striker fluffed their lines for. I mention Ox because he created 3 of our best opportunities to score. One for Welbeck, one for Ramsey and the other for Bellerin which should have won us a penalty. Not a huge fan of Ox. Very inconsistent but credit where it’s due.

But back to chance creation. You do realise that a chance creation counts as for any pass that leads to a shot on goal ; on or off target. So for example, even if Ozil does a sideways pass to a player outside the box that then decides to blaze it from 35 yards well over the bar, that counts as a chance created. Even if he passes it to a player crowed by defenders and the shot gets blocked, that’s counted as a chance created. It says nothing of the quality. The best chance Ozil created is the one that fell to Bellerin that resulted in a tame shot straight to the keeper. What were the other 3 chances he created? Did I miss them?
Off the top of my head, Ozil created a chance for Bellerin on the left and set up Welbeck with an open header in front of goal. That both those guys couldnt finish is not an indictment on Ozil, yet you decided to make it that. Both took place inside the penalty area. He also had one from a corner. So idk why the 35 yard thing is mentioned when that was not the case on Saturday and where most of Ozil's work is inside hte final 3rd, and its effing Arsenal where Wenger doesnt allow players to take shots that far out.

[mastermind84]

Thus proving that an increasing number of people prefer to let the media do their thinking for them. There's not a shred of evidence to support what the media claims regarding Ozil, but if you repeat the lie enough times then weak minded individuals will endorse it. With Alexis on the way out, Wenger refusing to spend as usual and the prestige of this club slipping deeper into the shitter on a weekly basis, of course it would be a great idea to get rid of Ozil. Those 49% (if we want to dispense with "almost") are geniuses.

Mans actually referred to the Arsenal Fan TV poll as a real point of reference.

Arsenal is so washed as a club now, lol.

[Power n Glory]

Mans actually referred to the Arsenal Fan TV poll as a real point of reference.

Arsenal is so washed as a club now, lol.

Sounds like you belong on there.

[Marc Overmars]

I don't really know what to think of Ozil anymore. I like him because he's a classy player but in his 4 seasons here I'd be kidding myself if I said he's really enhanced our game in a way that a so-called lesser player of his style could not have done. The fact he hasn't signed a new deal yet probably suggests he wants to leave however I think it's quite telling that we haven't heard much speculation regarding who might want to sign him. He doesn't seem like a man in demand to me.

Never has one player been absolved of as much responsibility as Mesut Ozil, it's always down to his teammates to provide the perfect environment for him to excel. It's like he's royalty for us but stick him at another top club and I doubt he would be held on such a pedestal. Real Madrid and Ronaldo missed him for all of 5 minutes, they've turned into a completely different animal since his departure.

If the right offer came in I think we should sell him. Oh and for the record I don't think he's lazy and I don't read or listen to what pundits have to say about him, I just don't think he's that good at what we all perceive him to do. If that offends any connoisseur's of the game, then so be it. :whistle:

[Power n Glory]

The best strikers in the world convert about 25% of their chances.

When I say luck. I dont mean a ball of the shin and it goes in type of luck. I mean, the conditions have to be ideal. You of course have to have hte composure to put the ball in the net, but a lot of stuff is out of the goal scorers hands. That is all I mean.

Welbeck doesnt have any composure and is poor technically. That is why he will never be a goalscorer.

We would see matches at 6-5. 8-7, etc of it was just bang-bang its in.


Off the top of my head, Ozil created a chance for Bellerin on the left and set up Welbeck with an open header in front of goal. That both those guys couldnt finish is not an indictment on Ozil, yet you decided to make it that. Both took place inside the penalty area. He also had one from a corner. So idk why the 35 yard thing is mentioned when that was not the case on Saturday and where most of Ozil's work is inside hte final 3rd, and its effing Arsenal where Wenger doesnt allow players to take shots that far out.

Agree with you on Welbeck. A piss poor player so no argument from me. We're not going to agree on finishing.

Back to Ozil...watch the below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqiTwd5wEOo

Ox was creating a lot in the first half and created a lot of good chances in 45 minutes. Compare that to Ozil.

- Skip to the 5.16 mark in the video - one cut back to Bellerin blazed high and wide outside of the box. The only chance created in the first half from him.
- At 8.15 Ozil creates the chance for Bellerin which was a tame shot.
- At 8.23 I see the poor header from Welbeck.

I can't see the corner see the corner but couldn't have been a great chance. But these aren't sublime chances that no other player can pull off. It's simple stuff that should be happening consistently. Yes, Bellerin and Welbeck should have scored but you'll see chances created from Giroud, Ox and even Monreal that were of similar if not better quality. It's not enough I'm afraid.

[Power n Glory]

I don't really know what to think of Ozil anymore. I like him because he's a classy player but in his 4 seasons here I'd be kidding myself if I said he's really enhanced our game in a way that a so-called lesser player of his style could not have done. The fact he hasn't signed a new deal yet probably suggests he wants to leave however I think it's quite telling that we haven't heard much speculation regarding who might want to sign him. He doesn't seem like a man in demand to me.

Never has one player been absolved of as much responsibility as Mesut Ozil, it's always down to his teammates to provide the perfect environment for him to excel. It's like he's royalty for us but stick him at another top club and I doubt he would be held on such a pedestal. Real Madrid and Ronaldo missed him for all of 5 minutes, they've turned into a completely different animal since his departure.

If the right offer came in I think we should sell him. Oh and for the record I don't think he's lazy and I don't read or listen to what pundits have to say about him, I just don't think he's that good at what we all perceive him to do. If that offends any connoisseur's of the game, then so be it. :whistle:

Amen. :gp:

77% possession against Stoke and not a single chance created for our £50m striker. It's not as if he was any better with Alexis either. I remember watching the first game of the season at the Emirates and seeing the same from Özil when Perez was up front. It's just not enough and we've seen it too often.

Also agree with you on the whole lazy debate. I don't expect to see him tearing about and putting in slide tackes. But the fact is, even if he played Coquelin next to Xhaka or whatever combination that made us more solid defensively in the midfield where Özil doesn't have to track back, he still won't perform to the level expected of a world class talent. Forget Madrid or other elite clubs. If he had to play for a lower league club where the quality bar is even lower than what's here at Arsenal, how would he fair? If he needs world class players around him to perform and perfect conditions, he'd look terrible if he had to play for West Ham.

[mastermind84]

Real Madrid and Ronaldo missed him for all of 5 minutes, they've turned into a completely different animal since his departure.

yeah, they solidified their midfield.

Meanwhile Wumger is just wumming his way through the seasons.

[fakeyank]

I don't really know what to think of Ozil anymore. I like him because he's a classy player but in his 4 seasons here I'd be kidding myself if I said he's really enhanced our game in a way that a so-called lesser player of his style could not have done. The fact he hasn't signed a new deal yet probably suggests he wants to leave however I think it's quite telling that we haven't heard much speculation regarding who might want to sign him. He doesn't seem like a man in demand to me.

Never has one player been absolved of as much responsibility as Mesut Ozil, it's always down to his teammates to provide the perfect environment for him to excel. It's like he's royalty for us but stick him at another top club and I doubt he would be held on such a pedestal. Real Madrid and Ronaldo missed him for all of 5 minutes, they've turned into a completely different animal since his departure.

If the right offer came in I think we should sell him. Oh and for the record I don't think he's lazy and I don't read or listen to what pundits have to say about him, I just don't think he's that good at what we all perceive him to do. If that offends any connoisseur's of the game, then so be it. :whistle:

:gp:

He is great when he decides to show up, but to me, he is completely 'sellable'. I'd sell him and offer the extra wages to Sanchez.

[Niall_Quinn]

:gp:

He is great when he decides to show up, but to me, he is completely 'sellable'. I'd sell him and offer the extra wages to Sanchez.

Alexis is gone. This rotten board is simply waiting for the right moment and the right excuse to announce it. Ozil is gone too, probably next season on a free. So those who are desperate to see the team substantially weakened while holding out hope Wenger will change the habits of a lifetime and adequately replace our losses can be pleased and disappointed at the same time.

The "Ozil didn't show up" myth has no validity whatsoever. He's almost always near the top of yardage covered (the holy grail in English football), passes made (Wenger's holy grail), and possession retained - Wenger's wank material and so vital to us because very few of our players retain possession in the danger zone. And that includes Alexis. You've already seen the effect of losing one genuine talent, Cazorla. Remove Alexis and then Ozil from the mix and check out what you have left. And you might say, we'll just get better players in as replacements. Well there are two major problems with that. First, who will want to come, as they watch out best players walk away? But much bigger than that - Wenger. What's the chance of him signing a genuine replacement? Almost zero. Add to that the inflation in the market and if you think Wenger is going to spend the 80-100 million needed to buy a world class midfield talent then you are in fantasy land. That's what these players are going to cost next season and Wenger wants no part of it.

But Ozil will be gone anyway. Alexis will leave next week, Ozil will leave next season and for several seasons after that we'll be listening to the people who wanted Ozil gone complaining that Wenger needs to sign a replacement for Ozil.

That cock Wenger has a chance to build on the signings of Ozil and Alexis. He chose not to. Mainly because he's a cock. But also because he's a massive fucking cock.

[mastermind84]

so vital to us because very few of our players retain possession in the danger zone. And that includes Alexis.

this is really true. This squad isnt technically solid enough and is loose with the ball. Ozil (and Iwobi) are the only reliable players further up the pitch to keep the ball and make good decisions.

[Power n Glory]

That's exactly what we need. To turn our 77% possession domination into 89% possession domination. ;)

Sanchez has a low pass success stat but he's the one that scores the most, came up with the most assists and has been the go to guy when we're in need of a goal. No risk no reward. The last thing we need is to fill the squad with more careful pussies that are afraid to play the risky pass or have a shot. NQ cracks me up because he's the first to rail against the tippy tappy football. The problem isn't retaining possession in the danger zone. If we actually had players that could defend, hold their shape and bother to defend when we lose the ball, we wouldn't have to be so conservative in attack.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's exactly what we need. To turn our 77% possession domination into 89% possession domination. ;)

Sanchez has a low pass success stat but he's the one that scores the most, came up with the most assists and has been the go to guy when we're in need of a goal. No risk no reward. The last thing we need is to fill the squad with more careful pussies that are afraid to play the risky pass or have a shot. NQ cracks me up because he's the first to rail against the tippy tappy football. The problem isn't retaining possession in the danger zone. If we actually had players that could defend, hold their shape and bother to defend when we lose the ball, we wouldn't have to be so conservative in attack.

We're not "conservative" in attack. We're incompetent in attack. That 77% tip tap nightmare breaks down the minute the ball goes into the danger area. You have been campaigning for a year to get rid one of the few players we have that can keep possession in the danger zone, rather than turf it over and expose the defence you are so worried about.

[Power n Glory]

We're not "conservative" in attack. We're incompetent in attack. That 77% tip tap nightmare breaks down the minute the ball goes into the danger area. You have been campaigning for a year to get rid one of the few players we have that can keep possession in the danger zone, rather than turf it over and expose the defence you are so worried about.

This is classic Wenger logic. Because we're so shit at defending and can concede two goals from teams that only manage one shot on target ;) , the solution is to win more possession and not lose the ball in dangerous areas? That is just backwards. How about learning how to defend so we're not so vulnerable on the counter or afraid to take risks on the edge of the box?

In the danger areas, we need better quality players that can actually score goals and be a consistent goal threat. Ozil is not that. Watxh the video I posted. Created next to nothing in the first half and only woke up once we went a goal down. It's not enough.

[Power n Glory]

Think about it. Add another player that plays exactly like Ozil to this team and we'll most likely see the same toothless performances.

Add another Sanchez...more risk in possession but with two players in the squad with that sort of drive to score and create....it's a no brainer.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is classic Wenger logic. Because we're so shit at defending and can concede two goals from teams that only manage one shot on target ;) , the solution is to win more possession and not lose the ball in dangerous areas? That is just backwards. How about learning how to defend so we're not so vulnerable on the counter or afraid to take risks on the edge of the box?

In the danger areas, we need better quality players that can actually score goals and be a consistent goal threat. Ozil is not that. Watxh the video I posted. Created next to nothing in the first half and only woke up once we went a goal down. It's not enough.

Erm, just no. In the danger area you need a mix of players, including those who can score goals and be a consistent goal threat. And learning how to defend, well yes of course. Always better than not learning how to defend. But how about making something of possession in the final third rather than just losing the ball? Then our learned friends in defence are going to be under less pressure and it will be our opponents who have to worry. What's really backwards is trying to fuck one of our best players out of the team because he doesn't score enough goals to justify his now rather minuscule price tag. All he's done is be Europe's best assister, although (apparently) he doesn't slide enough balls through for strikers that Wenger prefers to position with their backs to goal so they can lay-off passes to certain players who are absolutely shite at retaining possession in the danger area. Around and around we go.

This campaign to get rid of Ozil is ludicrous, frankly. Especially as it's Arsenal fans that seem to be doing the media legwork. Even Wenger's not this dumb. Ozil doesn't score enough goals - get rid. Santi Cazorla has scored 25 times in 129 appearances. Get rid. Ozil has scored 23 in 116. Get rid. Yeah, they might be absolutely vital to the cohesion of the team - but not enough goals. Get rid of a player who Wenger can't replace internally and no way would spent the money to replace from an external source? Makes zero sense, much like the media witchhunt that has been evident since the day Ozil signed. The lazy, stealing a living, best passer, best assisting, world cup winning, almost last remaining prestige player at the club. Get rid. Danny Welbeck can also play there and will be like a new signing when he loses the ball.

[Niall_Quinn]

As always, doesn't matter the season, weeks gone, pull out the comparisons and Ozil stacks up just fine. Pay attention to the final stat, duels won, to get a glimpse at how lazy and disinterested Ozil is. And that's starting a season when he doesn't want to be here.

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2017/2018/mesut_özil/819/819/123/0/p|premier_league/2017/2018/david_silva/819/819/308/0/p|premier_league/2017/2018/henrikh_mkhitaryan/819/819/5563/0/p|premier_league/2017/2018/dele_alli/819/819/18185/0/p#total_score/attack_score/defence_score/possession_score/total_forward_passes/total_backward_passes/successful_passes/pass_completion/key_passes/assists/chances_created/total_duels_%#90

And if two games in is too short a time, well tell Keown and Gerrard that. They are the dickheads who started all this up again.

[Power n Glory]

Context is everything. Watch the below video of Ozil's performance against Leicester City this season.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruO8qIWdO1w&t=147s

He's great at keeping the ball but where the heck are the quality chances created that people kept fucking up for him? I watched the game live, the highlights and thank fuck for Youtube but I can't see the 10 great chances we've squandered. A few of the best chances fell to him and he missed the target. (6:15) (6:50). Most of what I see here is sideways and backwards passes. Quick ones or cut backs into an already crowed box to Welbeck aren't great chances put on a plate for Welbeck. (2:20) (2:56). Welbeck could do better and should have done a lot better with the cross against Stoke but these aren't wonder passes here. This is bog standard stuff. In the video above you'll see Ozil screw up similar chances.

Ozil is great at keeping possession and if he had some muscle and hustle, I'd love him as a CM. I don't mind the backwards and sideways cautious passing from a CM because possession is important. But as an attacking midfielder, I expect to see more action from him. Take the man on more, take the risk and don't just pass it to the side if there is a risk of physical contact. He can't shoot for toffee. Good to see him take some shots from outside the area this season but he needs to work on his accuracy. And not to totally kill him, I think he's great at crossing the ball. Despite people saying Giroud and Ozil don't work, fact is, Ozil's best season came with Giroud up front and good chunk of the goals were created from set pieces and crosses. Ozil may hate playing wide left but maybe crossing is his most effective weapon. When faced with a crowed box, he really struggles to create. Compare this video to the last one with the Stoke highlights and just look at what Ox was doing. I don't even rate Ox that highly the chances he created and trouble he was causing is the sort of thing people look over. Those are the sort of chances I say are worth highlighting and saying he's unlucky not to have an assist.

[Dicks and chicks]

Should have got Salah, at 35 mil he looks.a bargain

[Bumble]

Ozil has signed a new contract £350k a week not bad work if you can get it.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Mesut. :bow:

[Power n Glory]

Ozil has signed a new contract £350k a week not bad work if you can get it.

He has a played an absolute blinder! Credit to his negotiation team and lawyers for how they played this. £350k a week!

It's good news for the club because there is would have looked bad to lose both Ozil and Sanchez.

Clean slate for Ozil from me. He's like a new signing and will be judging his performances based off what we have now. With Aubameyang, Mkhitaryan and Lacazette, we're not short of pace and goal scorers.

That's a very strong attacking line up!

[Niall_Quinn]

He'll probably take the month off now.

[Static]

Great news.

[Power n Glory]

Yep, I'm opening this case again. How was Ozil against Chelsea?

[Marc Overmars]

Same as always in these games.

The German FA woz rite.

[Gooner23]

Another no show in a big game, can't really defend him now.

At least he doesn't now seem to be immune from getting hooked when playing badly.

[Xhaka Can’t]

In the top 3 people I wish I’d never seen with an Arsenal shirt.

Erdogan was number 1.

[Goonermerree]

No doubt he can play when he wants to, but I've never been impressed with him and the wage he's on just galls me.

[Power n Glory]

In the top 3 people I wish I’d never seen with an Arsenal shirt.

Erdogan was number 1.

Who's the other guy? :lol:

[Power n Glory]

Same as always in these games.

The German FA woz rite.

Was he at least pressing against Chelsea? During the highlights I saw a lot of walking from players. Ozil being one of them but highlights can never paint a full picture. Against City, I could at least see he was trying to press and defend even if he was pants on attack.

But if he's taken the foot off the gas already, Emery has to put him in his place. How he does it, I don't know.

[Goonermerree]

Who knows what goes through Ozil's head? Is he trying, does he just find it difficult, are his team mates not good enough for his vision, who knows? He has got the club in a vice hold though. No club is going to pay his wage demands and he can stay trying or not trying or whatever until he runs his contract down. I'll never know why he was given such a hefty contract so recently without evidence to show that he could make a difference at Arsenal.

[Özim]

Ozil got his new contact because we were left in between a rock and a hard place due to amateur contract dealings by the club, we'd pretty much lost Sanchez (so lost 35 odd million) and we were about to lose someone else who we paid 42 million for, with no money for a replacement, from a fans point of view it would have been a disaster likewise for the club.

Ironically we've done it again with Ramsey.

On top of that we've handed Xhaka a new contract when we should have just sold him, now we'll be lumbered with him for years. The clubs transfer business needs a massive overhaul because allowing the situation to reoccur with Ramsey was pretty awful, we should have just sold him last summer, it now looks like he'll leave on a free next summer and we'll miss out on 35 million, which considering our spend last summer and potentially no CL football again is a disaster.

[Goonermerree]

We'll have paid out over £42 mil for him by the time his contract is up so he'd better do something in that time.

[Power n Glory]

Ozil got his new contact because we were left in between a rock and a hard place due to amateur contract dealings by the club, we'd pretty much lost Sanchez (so lost 35 odd million) and we were about to lose someone else who we paid 42 million for, with no money for a replacement, from a fans point of view it would have been a disaster likewise for the club.

Ironically we've done it again with Ramsey.

On top of that we've handed Xhaka a new contract when we should have just sold him, now we'll be lumbered with him for years. The clubs transfer business needs a massive overhaul because allowing the situation to reoccur with Ramsey was pretty awful, we should have just sold him last summer, it now looks like he'll leave on a free next summer and we'll miss out on 35 million, which considering our spend last summer and potentially no CL football again is a disaster.

But you rate Ozil as a player and I'm sure at the time you would have thought the club have done the right thing by giving him a new contract. For once, we retained a 'star player' and weren't forced into selling a rival.

What exactly have we done again with Ramsey? I don't get the comparison outside of him being down to his last year on his contract.

[Özim]

But you rate Ozil as a player and I'm sure at the time you would have thought the club have done the right thing by giving him a new contract. For once, we retained a 'star player' and weren't forced into selling a rival.

What exactly have we done again with Ramsey? I don't get the comparison outside of him being down to his last year on his contract.

I didn't have a problem with re-signing Ozil, I was just saying the club had no choice due to the situation, had he had a few years left on his contract they could have sold him and replaced him.

We've basically let him run down his contract meaning we now either let him go for nothing and loss the transfer fee, or pay him what he wants. We could/should have sold him last summer and got a fee, I'd argue we should have either got him to sign 2 years ago or sold him then.

[Power n Glory]

I didn't have a problem with re-signing Ozil, I was just saying the club had no choice due to the situation, had he had a few years left on his contract they could have sold him and replaced him.

We've basically let him run down his contract meaning we now either let him go for nothing and loss the transfer fee, or pay him what he wants. We could/should have sold him last summer and got a fee, I'd argue we should have either got him to sign 2 years ago or sold him then.

You've seen how long this thread has been going and know I don't rate Ozil highly at all. We should have sold him when he had two years left on his deal, but I'm in the minority with that opinion. The argument has always been that if we surrounded him with better quality players, he'd flourish. I don't believe we should have signed a player up to a major deal if he consistently produces 5's, 6's and 7 performances on the pitch but you rarely see 8-10 performances from him and need to spend even more money on other players just so he can perform at that elite level. That wasn't smart and the club should have stepped in and stopped Wenger's madness a lot earlier.

Ramsey isn't in the same position as Ozil. This isn't unique to our club either. A lot of players get down to the last year of their deal and truth be told, Ramsey isn't a good player and that's reflected in the demand for him. He's not a household name and if we lose him for peanuts we haven't lost much because we paid peanuts for him. What's similar to Ozil, is that nobody has made a firm approach for him and we'd be making a serious mistake if we offered him a new deal that includes a massive pay rise. We should avoid that at all costs. I don't care if he has to go on a free transfer. The £35m price tag is phantom money. Nobody has made a bid for him. Not even a last minute transfer deadline day rumour about him.

[Goonermerree]

You've seen how long this thread has been going and know I don't rate Ozil highly at all. We should have sold him when he had two years left on his deal, but I'm in the minority with that opinion. The argument has always been that if we surrounded him with better quality players, he'd flourish. I don't believe we should have signed a player up to a major deal if he consistently produces 5's, 6's and 7 performances on the pitch but you rarely see 8-10 performances from him and need to spend even more money on other players just so he can perform at that elite level. That wasn't smart and the club should have stepped in and stopped Wenger's madness a lot earlier.

Ramsey isn't in the same position as Ozil. This isn't unique to our club either. A lot of players get down to the last year of their deal and truth be told, Ramsey isn't a good player and that's reflected in the demand for him. He's not a household name and if we lose him for peanuts we haven't lost much because we paid peanuts for him. What's similar to Ozil, is that nobody has made a firm approach for him and we'd be making a serious mistake if we offered him a new deal that includes a massive pay rise. We should avoid that at all costs. I don't care if he has to go on a free transfer. The £35m price tag is phantom money. Nobody has made a bid for him. Not even a last minute transfer deadline day rumour about him.

:gp: I agree with you totally about Ozil and Ramsey.

[selassie]

You've seen how long this thread has been going and know I don't rate Ozil highly at all. We should have sold him when he had two years left on his deal, but I'm in the minority with that opinion. The argument has always been that if we surrounded him with better quality players, he'd flourish. I don't believe we should have signed a player up to a major deal if he consistently produces 5's, 6's and 7 performances on the pitch but you rarely see 8-10 performances from him and need to spend even more money on other players just so he can perform at that elite level. That wasn't smart and the club should have stepped in and stopped Wenger's madness a lot earlier.

Ramsey isn't in the same position as Ozil. This isn't unique to our club either. A lot of players get down to the last year of their deal and truth be told, Ramsey isn't a good player and that's reflected in the demand for him. He's not a household name and if we lose him for peanuts we haven't lost much because we paid peanuts for him. What's similar to Ozil, is that nobody has made a firm approach for him and we'd be making a serious mistake if we offered him a new deal that includes a massive pay rise. We should avoid that at all costs. I don't care if he has to go on a free transfer. The £35m price tag is phantom money. Nobody has made a bid for him. Not even a last minute transfer deadline day rumour about him.

Absolutely.

Ozil is currently the second highest paid player in PL behind Sanchez, he earns almost 100k more a week than the likes of Hazard, De Bruyne and Aguero.

Ozil and his agent absolutely took us to the cleaners with his new deal, it really is bonkers.

[Özim]

You've seen how long this thread has been going and know I don't rate Ozil highly at all. We should have sold him when he had two years left on his deal, but I'm in the minority with that opinion. The argument has always been that if we surrounded him with better quality players, he'd flourish. I don't believe we should have signed a player up to a major deal if he consistently produces 5's, 6's and 7 performances on the pitch but you rarely see 8-10 performances from him and need to spend even more money on other players just so he can perform at that elite level. That wasn't smart and the club should have stepped in and stopped Wenger's madness a lot earlier.

Ramsey isn't in the same position as Ozil. This isn't unique to our club either. A lot of players get down to the last year of their deal and truth be told, Ramsey isn't a good player and that's reflected in the demand for him. He's not a household name and if we lose him for peanuts we haven't lost much because we paid peanuts for him. What's similar to Ozil, is that nobody has made a firm approach for him and we'd be making a serious mistake if we offered him a new deal that includes a massive pay rise. We should avoid that at all costs. I don't care if he has to go on a free transfer. The £35m price tag is phantom money. Nobody has made a bid for him. Not even a last minute transfer deadline day rumour about him.

Yes I know that, I don't disagree with that, but I feel the same about any player if the club can't come to an agreement with them, especially because we don't seem to have much money floating about, if we had an owner who invested I wouldn't care so much because money can come from elsewhere, but as we know Kroenke isn't interested in investing.

So you suggest we should have just lost Sanchez and Ozil for nothing then? If that had happened the fans would have gone nuts and the club knew it, so they couldn't let it happen, the poor planning put us in this situation, again we could have sold Sanchez a year ago (or two maybe) but we didn't and ended up having to settle for a player we probably wouldn't have signed otherwise, it's all down to poor planning by the club.

A for Ramsey, like him or loathe him had we had him under contract we'd have got 40 million for him at least and even last summer perhaps 30 million which considering the fact we seem to not spend a huge amount could have been important, you can't just write off 30-40 million because you don't rate him, it would be better to get money for him because we could at least re-invest, now we'll get nothing.

Ramsey definitely has his admirers, you might not rate him but others do, we got money for Walcott and the guy was a total dud (you can even see it now at Everton), so we'd have got money for Ramsey for sure.

As for being unique to our club, I haven't seen many clubs let their best players walk away for nothing, usually they sell them at least with a year left on their contract (Courtois for example, but Chelsea have money available from their owner as well), so that they get some money in.

[Özim]

Absolutely.

Ozil is currently the second highest paid player in PL behind Sanchez, he earns almost 100k more a week than the likes of Hazard, De Bruyne and Aguero.

Ozil and his agent absolutely took us to the cleaners with his new deal, it really is bonkers.

They did, but they knew they could as we were on the verge of losing our two most expensive players for nothing, it's the clubs fault really, had they planned we could have sold him and replaced him with the money we received, instead we had a choice of letting him go for nothing and the fan going crazy or signing him up to quieten the fan revolt down somewhat.

This club doesn't want to spend, but is happy to waste whatever we are able to spend on huge contracts and losing players for nothing, it's amateurish.

[Power n Glory]

Yes I know that, I don't disagree with that, but I feel the same about any player if the club can't come to an agreement with them, especially because we don't seem to have much money floating about, if we had an owner who invested I wouldn't care so much because money can come from elsewhere, but as we know Kroenke isn't interested in investing.

So you suggest we should have just lost Sanchez and Ozil for nothing then? If that had happened the fans would have gone nuts and the club knew it, so they couldn't let it happen, the poor planning put us in this situation, again we could have sold Sanchez a year ago (or two maybe) but we didn't and ended up having to settle for a player we probably wouldn't have signed otherwise, it's all down to poor planning by the club.

A for Ramsey, like him or loathe him had we had him under contract we'd have got 40 million for him at least and even last summer perhaps 30 million which considering the fact we seem to not spend a huge amount could have been important, you can't just write off 30-40 million because you don't rate him, it would be better to get money for him because we could at least re-invest, now we'll get nothing.

Ramsey definitely has his admirers, you might not rate him but others do, we got money for Walcott and the guy was a total dud (you can even see it now at Everton), so we'd have got money for Ramsey for sure.

As for being unique to our club, I haven't seen many clubs let their best players walk away for nothing, usually they sell them at least with a year left on their contract (Courtois for example, but Chelsea have money available from their owner as well), so that they get some money in.

No, I'm not suggesting we should have lost both players for free. Where did you get that from? For Ozil, I said we should have sold him when he had two years left on his deal. The focus should have been on trying to sign up Sanchez because he kept some sort of value even when he had less than a year on his contract. Value in his contribution on the pitch and his transfer fee. I can't say the same for Ozil or Ramsey. Neither have attracted any sort of attention in the final days. No swap offers, no low ball offers, nothing. If a player is in high demand, clubs don't wait until the player is out of contract so they can battle it out with Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, PSG, in a bidding war. Way too much risk involved.

But saying all this, it's a lose lose situation whatever the club does in your eyes. If we sell, you'd complain about it, if we keep them at all costs, you'll say we have handled business badly and overspent. Which is what we have done with Ozil. There is no outcome I can see here that would satisfy you. And I have no idea where this late loving for Ramsey has come from. The guy is pants.

[Özim]

No, I'm not suggesting we should have lost both players for free. Where did you get that from? For Ozil, I said we should have sold him when he had two years left on his deal. The focus should have been on trying to sign up Sanchez because he kept some sort of value even when he had less than a year on his contract. Value in his contribution on the pitch and his transfer fee. I can't say the same for Ozil or Ramsey. Neither have attracted any sort of attention in the final days. No swap offers, no low ball offers, nothing. If a player is in high demand, clubs don't wait until the player is out of contract so they can battle it out with Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, PSG, in a bidding war. Way too much risk involved.

But saying all this, it's a lose lose situation whatever the club does in your eyes. If we sell, you'd complain about it, if we keep them at all costs, you'll say we have handled business badly and overspent. Which is what we have done with Ozil. There is no outcome I can see here that would satisfy you. And I have no idea where this late loving for Ramsey has come from. The guy is pants.

Well you were saying we shouldn't have offered Ozil a contract right here:


I don't believe we should have signed a player up to a major deal if he consistently produces 5's, 6's and 7 performances on the pitch but you rarely see 8-10 performances from him and need to spend even more money on other players just so he can perform at that elite level.

If you're not saying that, then what are you saying, he had 6 months left, we either signed him up or let him go for free?

You're agreeing with me on the 2 year thing, so then it is the clubs fault, like I said I'd have got them to renew with 2 years left or sold them, at worst I'd have sold them with a year to go to recoup some money.

To be fair Sanchez only attracted attention on the last day of the transfer window and only from one club last summer, so it doesn't always translate, it depends if the player wants to leave (clubs often speak to the player first indirectly), I can see the logic in signing the player up for less money.

If we'd wanted to we could have sold Ozil and Ramsey, all we'd need to do is tell clubs they're available, we'd probably get a cut price fee but it's better than nothing. Now we'll get nothing and I'm pretty sure Ramsey will have no problem finding a club, he's done very well for Wales and people will have seen what he can do and take a chance, you're only using the argument there's no interest because you don't rate them, fact is it's more complicated than that.

Sorry but that's nonsense, I say it how it is, the way I see it is we don't have a lot of money because we have an owner (which you seem to value incidentally) who basically has no interest in winning, putting his own money in or indeed football, this leaves us with using money we have generated, however if we just let our assets leave for free then we'll have even less money to spend which in my book is a terrible situation as I'm already unhappy with our lack of spending in the summer considering where we were last season and the fact we have a new manager.

As I said I don't have a problem with what we did with Ozil, I'd have rather kept him than lose him, it's cost us but it's better than losing him on a free.

I know you don't rate him but the fact is he's performed at better/bigger clubs than ours so he is good enough, it's up to the manager to tap into that. Ramsey I'm not fussed about, but I wanted us to get money for him rather than none, because in the end it affects our transfer budget which very much concerns me.

Can you not see the problems with letting players run down their contracts, do you see it as a good thing? If not then you must recognise it's poor dealings by the club, why would you let an asset walk away for free when you have a limited budget?

[IBK]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. It's easy to blame the club for allowing players' contracts to run down, but it's not a one way street. I would argue that the principal reason why we have reached this position in recent years is our lack of success on the pitch. By all accounts this was the major factor in Sanchez wanting away; as it was for the likes of Van Persie; Fabregas; Nasri et al. For years we have been a once great club clinging to our 'top status', with very little on the pitch under Wenger in his later years to suggest that good times are round the corner. For top players, this means that they and their agents are always on the front foot in any negotiations. Add to this more illustrious clubs with deeper pockets waiting in the wings (either in reality or in the perceptions of players and their agents), and its easy to see why our best players in their prime will at the very least wait and see, and keep their options open, knowing that when they enter into the final years of their contracts they will basically be able to do what they want. Both financially and in terms of footballing ambitions, we have to accept that it has been and remains very difficult to convince our very best players that signing new deals with us is in their best interests.

To this we need to add the Wenger factor. Again, it is generally accepted that firstly he had too much power and responsibility for player transfer dealings as well as managing the team on the pitch, and this affected our efficiency in managing contracts. Secondly, he was famously parsimonious in player valuations, and was always disinclined to offer the kind of money that might have helped our top players ignore any misgivings over our ability to win silverware. Lastly, he was always inclined to let players go if he felt that they wanted out - and even tended to put players before club in this respect.

This is why we have had few problems tying down non-top tier players who could be regarded as being in the best place that they can achieve, but stuggled with the elite.

That having been said, we have in a number of respects been damned if we do and damned if we don't. Fans have been up in arms at letting certain want away players go. Yet here we are bemoaning Ozil's wages when the club did make the necessary financial committment to keep him when we were struggling to remain a top four club. We tried to play hardball with Sanchez for a time, but it led simply to player instability and affected our performance on the pitch. We were underwhelmed by our Summer business, and many have criticised giving longer contracts to our 'lesser' players, but who is to say that the best players out there would be willing to join a club patently in transition?

I accept the arguments that Ozil has not performed in the manner that we would expect of our best paid player; and that some of the contracts that we have given are to players that remain potential rather than proven performers, but this is not an exact scienceand there is always an element of risk when you award fat contracts to players whom you would expect to build a team around. It's not as though this doesn't happen at other clubs, is it? Maybe we have got it wrong too many times in recent years, but that too, to a large degree is down to a manager who either lacks the necessary foresight, or cannot get the best out of certain players.

If a club can neither compete on a level playing field with more successful clubs, nor afford simply to pay more than those richer than it - and let's face it we cannot at present compete with the likes of Citeh; Manure; Liverpool and Chelsea in either respect - then keeping our best players is difficult, and to a great extent a lottery when we do.

[Power n Glory]

Well you were saying we shouldn't have offered Ozil a contract right here:



If you're not saying that, then what are you saying, he had 6 months left, we either signed him up or let him go for free?

You're agreeing with me on the 2 year thing, so then it is the clubs fault, like I said I'd have got them to renew with 2 years left or sold them, at worst I'd have sold them with a year to go to recoup some money.

To be fair Sanchez only attracted attention on the last day of the transfer window and only from one club last summer, so it doesn't always translate, it depends if the player wants to leave (clubs often speak to the player first indirectly), I can see the logic in signing the player up for less money.

If we'd wanted to we could have sold Ozil and Ramsey, all we'd need to do is tell clubs they're available, we'd probably get a cut price fee but it's better than nothing. Now we'll get nothing and I'm pretty sure Ramsey will have no problem finding a club, he's done very well for Wales and people will have seen what he can do and take a chance, you're only using the argument there's no interest because you don't rate them, fact is it's more complicated than that.

Sorry but that's nonsense, I say it how it is, the way I see it is we don't have a lot of money because we have an owner (which you seem to value incidentally) who basically has no interest in winning, putting his own money in or indeed football, this leaves us with using money we have generated, however if we just let our assets leave for free then we'll have even less money to spend which in my book is a terrible situation as I'm already unhappy with our lack of spending in the summer considering where we were last season and the fact we have a new manager.

As I said I don't have a problem with what we did with Ozil, I'd have rather kept him than lose him, it's cost us but it's better than losing him on a free.

I know you don't rate him but the fact is he's performed at better/bigger clubs than ours so he is good enough, it's up to the manager to tap into that. Ramsey I'm not fussed about, but I wanted us to get money for him rather than none, because in the end it affects our transfer budget which very much concerns me.

Can you not see the problems with letting players run down their contracts, do you see it as a good thing? If not then you must recognise it's poor dealings by the club, why would you let an asset walk away for free when you have a limited budget?

Come on Zim. I said the following. Why the confusion?


We should have sold him when he had two years left on his deal, but I'm in the minority with that opinion. The argument has always been that if we surrounded him with better quality players, he'd flourish. I don't believe we should have signed a player up to a major deal if he consistently produces 5's, 6's and 7 performances on the pitch but you rarely see 8-10 performances from him and need to spend even more money on other players just so he can perform at that elite level. That wasn't smart and the club should have stepped in and stopped Wenger's madness a lot earlier.

I already said the club should have sold him with two years left on his contract and not offered him a massive pay rise. He's not the player you want to retain at all costs because his performances don't reflect his value. The club messed up. But they messed up because of the demand from fans to retain their star player. As said you rate Ozil to this day and there is no way you'd understand why we sold him. Never. From you, it is always, 'why didn't we start negotiations earlier, why didn't pay the market rate, why didn't sell earlier'....then when the shit hits the fan 'why did we sell'. Every action the club takes, you'd see a negative. Especially if you rate Ozil and think the problem is around him and not actually the player himself. You also always seem to think that chucking money at the situation will solve the problem. But that's exactly why we're in this position with Ozil.

[Özim]

Come on Zim. I said the following. Why the confusion?



I already said the club should have sold him with two years left on his contract and not offered him a massive pay rise. He's not the player you want to retain at all costs because his performances don't reflect his value. The club messed up. But they messed up because of the demand from fans to retain their star player. As said you rate Ozil to this day and there is no way you'd understand why we sold him. Never. From you, it is always, 'why didn't we start negotiations earlier, why didn't pay the market rate, why didn't sell earlier'....then when the shit hits the fan 'why did we sell'. Every action the club takes, you'd see a negative. Especially if you rate Ozil and think the problem is around him and not actually the player himself. You also always seem to think that chucking money at the situation will solve the problem. But that's exactly why we're in this position with Ozil.

Well yes we're in agreement about that, but that wasn't an option as the club allowed him to run down his contract to 6 months, so what would you have suggested they do then, let him go for free in the summer, because that was the only option left.

That's subjective, you don't think he is, others would disagree, if we'd lost Ozil on a free I'd be disappointed for sure, as I would if we sold him and didn't get anyone decent in, but if we sold him and brought someone of quality and explained he didn't want to sign on with 2 years left, I'd probably understand as long as we replaced him (which was the issue before, selling quality without replacing them with adequate quality).

That's always my point, if you lose top quality, replace it with top quality.

It's worked well enough for Man City, Chelsea and Liverpool, so why not us, I'm tired of seeing us left behind, even by Liverpool now, quality players cost a lot but make a difference, Van Dijk at Liverpool has made a huge difference for example, trouble seems to be we're not willing to do that, I suspect due to Kroenke.

[Bumble]

do we need ozil - no not really. especially if he doesn't fit in to the way Emery wants to play. same as ramsey - I like him, he is a goalscoring midfielder, he could be someone like Lampard and every team needs a goalscorer from midfield.

on contracts its like someone has said before a player wants to sign a new contract as well as the club offering the contract. if ramsey wants £200k a week then that is still £100k less than Ozil. he is one of our longest serving players and does offer something. but if emery cant see him fitting in then we need to sell.

[Power n Glory]

Well yes we're in agreement about that, but that wasn't an option as the club allowed him to run down his contract to 6 months, so what would you have suggested they do then, let him go for free in the summer, because that was the only option left.

That's subjective, you don't think he is, others would disagree, if we'd lost Ozil on a free I'd be disappointed for sure, as I would if we sold him and didn't get anyone decent in, but if we sold him and brought someone of quality and explained he didn't want to sign on with 2 years left, I'd probably understand as long as we replaced him (which was the issue before, selling quality without replacing them with adequate quality).

That's always my point, if you lose top quality, replace it with top quality.

It's worked well enough for Man City, Chelsea and Liverpool, so why not us, I'm tired of seeing us left behind, even by Liverpool now, quality players cost a lot but make a difference, Van Dijk at Liverpool has made a huge difference for example, trouble seems to be we're not willing to do that, I suspect due to Kroenke.

You just said in your previous post that we could have sold Ozil if we wanted to even with just 6 months on his contract. So why didn't we? I'm not saying we should have let him walk on a free because there were other options. 1) Sell him with two years on his contract. 2) Sell him with one year on his contract at a cut price. For whatever reason, we couldn't and I guess it's tough for fans to accept that maybe nobody actually wanted the lazy bastard.

Which brings us on to another issue. These are the stakes at hand when you spend big on players that flop. The club have done shoddy business in the past but on this occasion, they did the right thing but for the wrong player. You've done a pretty good job of deflecting for this debate. We lost Sanchez but brought in Mkhitaryan and Aubameyang. Has that slipped your memory? Top quality for top quality.

But the past is the past. What do we do now about an overpaid player that his past his prime and doesn't look like he fits into the current system? Can he adapt or do we cut our losses?

[Özim]

You just said in your previous post that we could have sold Ozil if we wanted to even with just 6 months on his contract. So why didn't we? I'm not saying we should have let him walk on a free because there were other options. 1) Sell him with two years on his contract. 2) Sell him with one year on his contract at a cut price. For whatever reason, we couldn't and I guess it's tough for fans to accept that maybe nobody actually wanted the lazy bastard.

Which brings us on to another issue. These are the stakes at hand when you spend big on players that flop. The club have done shoddy business in the past but on this occasion, they did the right thing but for the wrong player. You've done a pretty good job of deflecting for this debate. We lost Sanchez but brought in Mkhitaryan and Aubameyang. Has that slipped your memory? Top quality for top quality.

But the past is the past. What do we do now about an overpaid player that his past his prime and doesn't look like he fits into the current system? Can he adapt or do we cut our losses?

I'm not sure if we could, but 6 months is too late, the player has very little value then, we'd get peanuts and wouldn't be able to replace him and that's if we could find a buyer then.

The two years thing wasn't an option, we left it till the last 6 months, so we only had two options, to keep him or lose him (for peanuts then or free in the summer), yes ideally we'd have sold him with 2 years, but the club messed up as they did with Sanchez and now Ramsey (and you could argue Wilshere when Man City came in form him).

Sanchez didn't want to stay, he made it clear, if a player doesn't want to stay you and his contract has nearly run out you don't really have many options, Ozil was happy to stay that's the difference so that was the only option, so we could have lost Sanchez and Ozil or kept 1 and we managed to do the latter and made the best out of a very bad situation.

Mhiki I'm not a huge fan of to be honest, he flopped at Man U and if not for Sanchez walking away for free we probably would have never gone in for him, we made the best out of a bad situation as mentioned, but he doesn't really fit into our team as what we needed was a winger not another central player.
Aubameyang was good business I grant you.

Well now Ozil can be sold for a fee at least as he's under contract, though I would think this won't happen, the club signed him up and will probably want to keep him (and Emery won't have any say in that I would think). As for the past, it's not really the past now as we've repeated the same thing with Ramsey unless we somehow sell him before the end of August, because we'll again get no money for a player we could get maybe 30-35 million for otherwise which is a waste IMO.

[Goonermerree]

Ozil won't leave until his contract is up, nobody would pay his wages demand. We're stuck with him!

[Ralpheroo72]

Agree, no one would touch Ozil now. He’s not performing, and the money we are paying him is madness and won’t be matched elsewhere.

[Power n Glory]

I'm not sure if we could, but 6 months is too late, the player has very little value then, we'd get peanuts and wouldn't be able to replace him and that's if we could find a buyer then.

The two years thing wasn't an option, we left it till the last 6 months, so we only had two options, to keep him or lose him (for peanuts then or free in the summer), yes ideally we'd have sold him with 2 years, but the club messed up as they did with Sanchez and now Ramsey (and you could argue Wilshere when Man City came in form him).

Sanchez didn't want to stay, he made it clear, if a player doesn't want to stay you and his contract has nearly run out you don't really have many options, Ozil was happy to stay that's the difference so that was the only option, so we could have lost Sanchez and Ozil or kept 1 and we managed to do the latter and made the best out of a very bad situation.

Mhiki I'm not a huge fan of to be honest, he flopped at Man U and if not for Sanchez walking away for free we probably would have never gone in for him, we made the best out of a bad situation as mentioned, but he doesn't really fit into our team as what we needed was a winger not another central player.
Aubameyang was good business I grant you.

Well now Ozil can be sold for a fee at least as he's under contract, though I would think this won't happen, the club signed him up and will probably want to keep him (and Emery won't have any say in that I would think). As for the past, it's not really the past now as we've repeated the same thing with Ramsey unless we somehow sell him before the end of August, because we'll again get no money for a player we could get maybe 30-35 million for otherwise which is a waste IMO.

Mkhitaryan flopped at Utd after one season of putting up unimpressive 'Ozil type' statistics for Jose Mourinho and you've written him off. Debut season he gets 11 goals and 5 assists despite Mourinho tinkering with his playing position and playing time.

Last season Ozil got 5 goals with 14 assists.

Last season for Mkh - 5 goals with 12 assist. Remember he played for us and Utd last season. Two different systems and under a manager that had zero faith in him and spent less time on the pitch than Ozil last season.

But you still rate Ozil. Ok.

[Özim]

Mkhitaryan flopped at Utd after one season of putting up unimpressive 'Ozil type' statistics for Jose Mourinho and you've written him off. Debut season he gets 11 goals and 5 assists despite Mourinho tinkering with his playing position and playing time.

Last season Ozil got 5 goals with 14 assists.

Last season for Mkh - 5 goals with 12 assist. Remember he played for us and Utd last season. Two different systems and under a manager that had zero faith in him and spent less time on the pitch than Ozil last season.

But you still rate Ozil. Ok.

I just don't really rate Mkhitaryan s talent, he's too lightweight IMO we already had Ozil so why get him as well and he's almost 30 on top of that, at least Ozil has shown wht he can do in the past, Mkhitaryan hasn't really done a massive amount in his career IMO.

I'd personally have sold him and got Gelson Martins in, we can't accommodate him and Ozil and I'd rather have Ozil who is pound for pound more creative overall.

I'm basing my opinion of Ozil on what he's done for Germany, Real Madrid and Werder Bremen, on that basis he's got huge talent and the question is whether the manager can tap into that.

[Özim]

Article about Ozil

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/the-big-problem-with-mesut-ozil-is-that-hes-too-good-for/8s2mq4qazwxu1ie5wjeodqhmk

[Power n Glory]

I'm not even reading. That 'too good for Arsenal' narrative has to stop from Arsenal fans. It's embarrassing and especially when you say Mkhitaryan flopped at Man Utd after one season and won't even give him a chance.

This sort of discourse doesn't happen with World Class players and not over such a long period of their careers. Players like Giroud, Walcott and Xhaka need managers that can 'tap into' their potential.

[Özim]

I'm not even reading. That 'too good for Arsenal' narrative has to stop from Arsenal fans. It's embarrassing and especially when you say Mkhitaryan flopped at Man Utd after one season and won't even give him a chance.

This sort of discourse doesn't happen with World Class players and not over such a long period of their careers. Players like Giroud, Walcott and Xhaka need managers that can 'tap into' their potential.

Mkhitaryan isn't even World class, he did nothing at Man U and has done nothing with us, I don't even think he was that good at Dortmund to be honest, so as far as I'm concerned he's done very little in his career and if we sold him I honestly wouldn't care.

Ozil is proven, I know you've never liked him and go out of your way to criticise him, but the facts are the guy is one of our few World Class players, sure he's not been at his best but he's still got bags of ability we're just not getting the most out of him, but that might change under Emery, so in my opinion it's best to wait and see.

Giroud, Walcott and Xhaka have no potential, they're bang average players, you can't tap into anything, best thing we ever did was sell 2 out of those 3 duds, just 1 left now and hopefully we get rid ASAP (personally think that should have been done in the summer), I don't even know why you brought them into this tbh, you defended Walcott for 10 odd years despite him rarely ever turning up, in the end he never made it and had to be sold on and he was far worse than Ozil and also ended up being paid a shedload in relative terms.

[Power n Glory]

Alright, Zim. We'll never agree on this.

[Power n Glory]

https://le-grove.co.uk/


In other news, Mikhi, is going hard at the doubters.

“Everyone has their own opinion. We know very well what we are playing for and how we have to play.

“If we are just going to kick the ball up front and wait for God to give us a chance to score, it’s not necessary.

“The only thing we have to do is to work hard, believe in ourselves and use the chances we create to score goals.”

I like his mindset. It’s interesting how many people are questioning whether he can play in the same side as Ozil. Matt on the pod went hard on this one. I’ve heard people say the same about Ozil and Ramsey as well. Then you start thinking about how sensitive the Ozil ecosystem has to be to function.

Remember last season when we were all purring over Ozil feeding Lacazette? Then that didn’t work out. Then we were all purring over Ozil and Auba, and that didn’t work out. I’m kind of getting a little bit worried about the German and his ability to function at Arsenal.

I see this season going one of two ways, he’s either going to click and make the magic happen, or he’s going to fade away like Wayne Bridge and Winston Bogarde did. The scene is set for a tap out. His rep has been soiled in Germany, he’s just landed a mega contract at Arsenal, his new manager is asking him to do things he’d rather not do. I hope I’m wrong and he comes back in from the cold, but it’s not looking good at this second.

[IBK]

I'm not even reading. That 'too good for Arsenal' narrative has to stop from Arsenal fans. It's embarrassing and especially when you say Mkhitaryan flopped at Man Utd after one season and won't even give him a chance.

This sort of discourse doesn't happen with World Class players and not over such a long period of their careers. Players like Giroud, Walcott and Xhaka need managers that can 'tap into' their potential.

I read it. And I have 2 problems with the article's arguments. First, while I accept both that football is a team game where a superstar can make less of a difference than, say basketball, and that Arsenal's main issues for years have been in defence, it is nonsense to suggest effectively that a world class football player cannot achieve great things individually. Look at Ronaldo in the World Cup, or the difference that the likes of de Bruyne; Salah; Hazard; Kane make to their respective teams - not just as team players but in their own right. There is a reason why strikers and forward players are the best paid in any team - their individual skills lead to goals, and generally speaking, the better they are the more goals they score/create.


Second, the article effectively exonerates Ozil from responsibility in an underperforming team. I too am frustrated by the 'too good for Arsenal' argument. Even our most vociferous detractors would struggle to argue that we do not have good players. We may have slipped out of the top four, but we are hardly a championship team, and I refuse to accept that the team is preventing our best paid player from shining. The wages Ozil commands mean that we should rightly expect more from him. Yes his assists recors is impressive, but does he, and has he lived up to his reputation? The answer is clearly no. We have simply not seen enough star quality from him consistently, and while I am prepared to give him a chance under a new manager, the current evidence is that he is not the game-changing player that we are paying for. It is perfectly reasonable to expect this of him whatever our shambolic situation at the back.

[IBK]

I read it. And I have 2 problems with the article's arguments. First, while I accept both that football is a team game where a superstar can make less of a difference than, say basketball, and that Arsenal's main issues for years have been in defence, it is nonsense to suggest effectively that a world class football player cannot achieve great things individually. Look at Ronaldo in the World Cup, or the difference that the likes of de Bruyne; Salah; Hazard; Kane make to their respective teams - not just as team players but in their own right. There is a reason why strikers and forward players are the best paid in any team - their individual skills lead to goals, and generally speaking, the better they are the more goals they score/create.


Second, the article effectively exonerates Ozil from responsibility in an underperforming team. I too am frustrated by the 'too good for Arsenal' argument. Even our most vociferous detractors would struggle to argue that we do not have good players. We may have slipped out of the top four, but we are hardly a championship team, and I refuse to accept that the team is preventing our best paid player from shining. The wages Ozil commands mean that we should rightly expect more from him. Yes his assists recors is impressive, but does he, and has he lived up to his reputation? The answer is clearly no. We have simply not seen enough star quality from him consistently, and while I am prepared to give him a chance under a new manager, the current evidence is that he is not the game-changing player that we are paying for. It is perfectly reasonable to expect this of him whatever our shambolic situation at the back.

...and Giroud delivered more relative to his price tag than Ozil ever has...

[Power n Glory]

I read it. And I have 2 problems with the article's arguments. First, while I accept both that football is a team game where a superstar can make less of a difference than, say basketball, and that Arsenal's main issues for years have been in defence, it is nonsense to suggest effectively that a world class football player cannot achieve great things individually. Look at Ronaldo in the World Cup, or the difference that the likes of de Bruyne; Salah; Hazard; Kane make to their respective teams - not just as team players but in their own right. There is a reason why strikers and forward players are the best paid in any team - their individual skills lead to goals, and generally speaking, the better they are the more goals they score/create.


Second, the article effectively exonerates Ozil from responsibility in an underperforming team. I too am frustrated by the 'too good for Arsenal' argument. Even our most vociferous detractors would struggle to argue that we do not have good players. We may have slipped out of the top four, but we are hardly a championship team, and I refuse to accept that the team is preventing our best paid player from shining. The wages Ozil commands mean that we should rightly expect more from him. Yes his assists recors is impressive, but does he, and has he lived up to his reputation? The answer is clearly no. We have simply not seen enough star quality from him consistently, and while I am prepared to give him a chance under a new manager, the current evidence is that he is not the game-changing player that we are paying for. It is perfectly reasonable to expect this of him whatever our shambolic situation at the back.

I couldn't bring myself to read it. Such articles are disrespectful to our club and the current players we have at our club. Aubameyang and Lacazette are two very good strikers with the speed and power to get into position but are starved of service from Ozil. There is no partnership or understanding. Why? It's not as if he's still playing with Giroud or Welbeck. Even when we had Sanchez, he hardly assisted Sanchez. When Sanchez moved to the striker position, it was Sanchez that helped Ozil have his best goal scoring season of his entire career. Some of the passes I saw from Sanchez to split a defence was what I'd expect from Ozil. I just don't get why there is no partnership with anyone on the team. Is he not seeing the runs or can he not find the space? We've surrounded him with the right players and we play the style of football that best suits him. Even in games where we're on the back foot and having to play on the counter, Ozil has no effect on the game. You'd at least expect him to be able to unleash a pass that sets our attackers off like we'd used to see from Cesc who always look to anticipate a run from Theo or whoever.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAn-J8_xUG8

We've had star quality players here at Arsenal and despite we've played and performed over the course of the season, RVP, Cesc, late Arsenal Henry, Sanchez...they'd all have plenty of games where they'd pull off 8-10 rated performances and clearly be the best player on the pitch. They never constantly looked average with 5's and 6's. Exoneration is the right word. It has to stop.

[Power n Glory]

...and Giroud delivered more relative to his price tag than Ozil ever has...

Also, despite what people said about the Giroud and Ozil partnership, Giroud still remains to be the best partner for Ozil where he picked up the most assists in a season. Ozil hasn't been great at splitting defences with through balls. Despite us all clamoring for that number 9 striker that can also play off the shoulder of a defender, Ozil still hasn't been able to feed our pacey strong strikers. His best weapon for assists are cut backs into the box and crosses. That was bread and butter for Giroud who thrived off poacher one touch strikes when the ball was cut back to him or powering through on headers or scorpion kicks. :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

The thing is, Ozil's performances are often qualified by the hipsters by the things us simple folk don't see. Like finding pockets of space, what a player!

As far as I'm concerned for us, Cesc was way better at the things Ozil is perceived to do.

I feel like this guy has become such a weight around the neck of the team now, if we sold him I think we could certainly find a more effective attacking midfielder. Maybe even 2 players with his wages off the bill.

[I am invisible]

Also, despite what people said about the Giroud and Ozil partnership, Giroud still remains to be the best partner for Ozil where he picked up the most assists in a season. Ozil hasn't been great at splitting defences with through balls. Despite us all clamoring for that number 9 striker that can also play off the shoulder of a defender, Ozil still hasn't been able to feed our pacey strong strikers. His best weapon for assists are cut backs into the box and crosses. That was bread and butter for Giroud who thrived off poacher one touch strikes when the ball was cut back to him or powering through on headers or scorpion kicks. :lol:

This is what I'm finding most frustrating with Özil (and our whole attack) at the moment - we've got Aubameyang who arrives first and gets about as close to the goal line as I've ever seen at times, we've got Lacazette who has a knack for ghosting in unseen at the back post a moment later, and we have Ramsey who has always been most effective making late runs into the area - in theory, Özil should have the ideal spread of players there to pick out with low crosses and cut-backs, all hitting different points in the box at slightly staggered times, but for some reason the 4 of them just don't click.

Honestly, I'm not sure how much patience I have for it now. Even if the 4 of them gel perfectly, it still leaves us with an awkward team shape that would require an incredible amount of flexibility and fluidity in the final third, which leaves us a little exposed down the flanks, defensively - the hope would have to be that the attack is potent enough to make it worth it. That's the best case scenario there. If it doesn't work out like that often enough to justify it, then I'm just not sure it's worth persevering with.

And if we're not going to persevere with it then I'm not sure where that leaves Özil (or Ramsey for that matter)? His best bet at the moment looks like trying to repurpose himself into a different role, but at 2 months shy of being 30 (and with a nice, long, 300k/week contract to sit on), I just question whether he has it in him to make such a change? I mean, he barely seems like he can be bothered playing his favoured number 10 role half the time, so what chance do we have of motivating him to play wide, or maybe even deeper, where he might have to do more running and defending? Moreover, is it even worth the coach's time trying to make it happen, or would he be better of putting that energy into a younger, cheaper, more willing option who has more long-term potential?

[Özim]

All this talk about Ozil, but in fact the reason we lost at the weekend was firstly because Aubameyang missed quite a few sitters and secondly and most importantly because the defence was shocking again, 5 goals conceded in 2 games isn't exactly great. Had we had a decent defence we'd have probably won, so I'd suggest the defence is the issue not the attack.

People love to go in on him, I'm not saying he was great, far from it but he wasn't really a massive issue. It was alwasy a risk to not really buy top quality in defence and that will beour downfall, Mustafi is rubbish, Bellerin can't defend and Sokratis might be OK with someone decent alongside but in the current lineup he's struggling somewhat. 5 goals conceded in 2 games and to be honest if City had their shooting boots on it woud have been a lot more!

[Özim]

This is what I'm finding most frustrating with Özil (and our whole attack) at the moment - we've got Aubameyang who arrives first and gets about as close to the goal line as I've ever seen at times, we've got Lacazette who has a knack for ghosting in unseen at the back post a moment later, and we have Ramsey who has always been most effective making late runs into the area - in theory, Özil should have the ideal spread of players there to pick out with low crosses and cut-backs, all hitting different points in the box at slightly staggered times, but for some reason the 4 of them just don't click.

Honestly, I'm not sure how much patience I have for it now. Even if the 4 of them gel perfectly, it still leaves us with an awkward team shape that would require an incredible amount of flexibility and fluidity in the final third, which leaves us a little exposed down the flanks, defensively - the hope would have to be that the attack is potent enough to make it worth it. That's the best case scenario there. If it doesn't work out like that often enough to justify it, then I'm just not sure it's worth persevering with.

And if we're not going to persevere with it then I'm not sure where that leaves Özil (or Ramsey for that matter)? His best bet at the moment looks like trying to repurpose himself into a different role, but at 2 months shy of being 30 (and with a nice, long, 300k/week contract to sit on), I just question whether he has it in him to make such a change? I mean, he barely seems like he can be bothered playing his favoured number 10 role half the time, so what chance do we have of motivating him to play wide, or maybe even deeper, where he might have to do more running and defending? Moreover, is it even worth the coach's time trying to make it happen, or would he be better of putting that energy into a younger, cheaper, more willing option who has more long-term potential?

I wouldn't worry about Ramsey to be honest, if he's not somehow sold in the next week or so he'll go on a free next summer so won't be an issue. This discussion is pretty pointless as Ozil will be going nowhere, having given him a big contract the club won't be letting him go anytime soon, Mhkitaryan is more likely to make way, he's almost 30 as well and what we really need is a winger rather than another lightweight central player, I'm not sure the club really wanted him in the 1st place, but they basically had to get something back from losing Sanchez and that's the best they could get.

Would I mind if we sold Ozil, but at the same time, there's probably at least half a dozen names I'd get rid of before him.

[Power n Glory]

This is what I'm finding most frustrating with Özil (and our whole attack) at the moment - we've got Aubameyang who arrives first and gets about as close to the goal line as I've ever seen at times, we've got Lacazette who has a knack for ghosting in unseen at the back post a moment later, and we have Ramsey who has always been most effective making late runs into the area - in theory, Özil should have the ideal spread of players there to pick out with low crosses and cut-backs, all hitting different points in the box at slightly staggered times, but for some reason the 4 of them just don't click.

Honestly, I'm not sure how much patience I have for it now. Even if the 4 of them gel perfectly, it still leaves us with an awkward team shape that would require an incredible amount of flexibility and fluidity in the final third, which leaves us a little exposed down the flanks, defensively - the hope would have to be that the attack is potent enough to make it worth it. That's the best case scenario there. If it doesn't work out like that often enough to justify it, then I'm just not sure it's worth persevering with.

And if we're not going to persevere with it then I'm not sure where that leaves Özil (or Ramsey for that matter)? His best bet at the moment looks like trying to repurpose himself into a different role, but at 2 months shy of being 30 (and with a nice, long, 300k/week contract to sit on), I just question whether he has it in him to make such a change? I mean, he barely seems like he can be bothered playing his favoured number 10 role half the time, so what chance do we have of motivating him to play wide, or maybe even deeper, where he might have to do more running and defending? Moreover, is it even worth the coach's time trying to make it happen, or would he be better of putting that energy into a younger, cheaper, more willing option who has more long-term potential?

Exactly. Not sure why it's not clicking. I don't think Ozil can play wide and the type of passer he is makes me think he'd be more involved as a CM. But if he can't defend and is too lightweight, that will probably backfire. Also, I'd rather see Guendouzi play as CM. Clock is ticking for him. Emery can't indulge him too much. If he allows him to keep putting in 5's and 6's but is starting every game, it will cause problem in the dressing room.

[IBK]

All this talk about Ozil, but in fact the reason we lost at the weekend was firstly because Aubameyang missed quite a few sitters and secondly and most importantly because the defence was shocking again, 5 goals conceded in 2 games isn't exactly great. Had we had a decent defence we'd have probably won, so I'd suggest the defence is the issue not the attack.

People love to go in on him, I'm not saying he was great, far from it but he wasn't really a massive issue. It was alwasy a risk to not really buy top quality in defence and that will beour downfall, Mustafi is rubbish, Bellerin can't defend and Sokratis might be OK with someone decent alongside but in the current lineup he's struggling somewhat. 5 goals conceded in 2 games and to be honest if City had their shooting boots on it woud have been a lot more!

The problem is that the fact that other players had an off day (and for Mustafi this seems to be the default position) does not excuse Ozil. Even accepting that his forte is the assist, its par for the course for this type of player that he needs to keep plugging away whether or not the strikers are firing. And as I say, it is reasonable to expect Ozil to be a game changer consistently - and there is no doubt that he is falling short of this expectation. I'm getting a bit frustrated by this idea that either we cannot see what Ozil is bringing to the team, or that he is being let down by team mates. Why should Ozil get the benefit of the doubt, where Ramsey - a player that many critics see in a similar light (ie less obvious the important role he performs) isn't? This wouldn't happen with another team - look at the criticism Pogba is getting at Manure for example. It is simple really - the evidence is that Ozil is not justifying his price tag.

I explained above why I do not necessarity blame the Club for Ozil's mega contract - he benefitted from fairly extreme circumstances when he re-signed. I think also that we have little choice but to try to get the best out of him. But if it turns out that 2 different managers cannot do so, then the fault surely rests with the player, and there cannot be any excuses for him.

[Power n Glory]

The thing is, Ozil's performances are often qualified by the hipsters by the things us simple folk don't see. Like finding pockets of space, what a player!

As far as I'm concerned for us, Cesc was way better at the things Ozil is perceived to do.

I feel like this guy has become such a weight around the neck of the team now, if we sold him I think we could certainly find a more effective attacking midfielder. Maybe even 2 players with his wages off the bill.

I've never seen so much praise for 5 yard passes and a player that hides from receving the ball, but it's finessed as his 'appreciation for space and uneducated fans and players just not understanding his art. Midfield is a high touch position and unless you're banging in goals like Frank Lampard, you shouldn't be able to get away with ghosting around the pitch, playing 5 yard passes like Elneny, weak and as lazy as Denilson but because it's Ozil, we should appreciate the offering. Rubbish.

[Power n Glory]

The problem is that the fact that other players had an off day (and for Mustafi this seems to be the default position) does not excuse Ozil. Even accepting that his forte is the assist, its par for the course for this type of player that he needs to keep plugging away whether or not the strikers are firing. And as I say, it is reasonable to expect Ozil to be a game changer consistently - and there is no doubt that he is falling short of this expectation. I'm getting a bit frustrated by this idea that either we cannot see what Ozil is bringing to the team, or that he is being let down by team mates. Why should Ozil get the benefit of the doubt, where Ramsey - a player that many critics see in a similar light (ie less obvious the important role he performs) isn't? This wouldn't happen with another team - look at the criticism Pogba is getting at Manure for example. It is simple really - the evidence is that Ozil is not justifying his price tag.

I explained above why I do not necessarity blame the Club for Ozil's mega contract - he benefitted from fairly extreme circumstances when he re-signed. I think also that we have little choice but to try to get the best out of him. But if it turns out that 2 different managers cannot do so, then the fault surely rests with the player, and there cannot be any excuses for him.

Add Lowe to the list of managers. He's been off the pace for Germany for a while now.

[IBK]

Add Lowe to the list of managers. He's been off the pace for Germany for a while now.

Could be that his best days are simply behind him? Hope not.

[Power n Glory]

Could be that his best days are simply behind him? Hope not.

It's possible. He's no spring chicken. We have to find a solution though. That solution doesn't necessarily have to end with Ozil on the pitch all the time. Hopefully, he can get his act together under Emery. Ozil has some serious talent but it's rare to see him tap into all that he is capable of. Reminds me of Nasri.

[Mac76]

It's possible. He's no spring chicken. We have to find a solution though. That solution doesn't necessarily have to end with Ozil on the pitch all the time. Hopefully, he can get his act together under Emery. Ozil has some serious talent but it's rare to see him tap into all that he is capable of. Reminds me of Nasri.

The big problem is that big fat contract, he gets good money whether he plays well or not - or even plays at all - and i just think the wenger years have taken the fizz out of his play.

On the evidence so far, I'm not convinced Emery is going to be able to force him to up his game.

Ozil's probably just sticking it out and then can go play in the States or Japan or wherever

No big CL-level team will buy him, he's damaged goods and doesn't seem to have any motivation to prove himself at the highest level any more.

Not good for us...

[Power n Glory]

All this talk about Ozil, but in fact the reason we lost at the weekend was firstly because Aubameyang missed quite a few sitters and secondly and most importantly because the defence was shocking again, 5 goals conceded in 2 games isn't exactly great. Had we had a decent defence we'd have probably won, so I'd suggest the defence is the issue not the attack.

People love to go in on him, I'm not saying he was great, far from it but he wasn't really a massive issue. It was alwasy a risk to not really buy top quality in defence and that will beour downfall, Mustafi is rubbish, Bellerin can't defend and Sokratis might be OK with someone decent alongside but in the current lineup he's struggling somewhat. 5 goals conceded in 2 games and to be honest if City had their shooting boots on it woud have been a lot more!

I remember the days when people would used such deflection tactics to keep the focus off Wenger. Blame the Board, blame the players, blame the fans. Blame anyone but Wenger.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I actually think Ozil just needs a little time in his new team. Problem is the first 2 games have been tricky (and isn't an especially large sample size anyway) and Emery is still figuring it all out. It may still not look any better in 3/4/5 games time, but I have faith that it will and I think the sooner Emery cements his structure and identity the better. The faster they can all work out their parts within it and make sure the good things they do in it become a habit no more cohesive it will look.

As people have already pointed out though, we best well better make use of Ozil...because he will get paid either way.

I think about Ramsey the same as I thought about Wilshere. He should slip further back into midfield where his talents can affect the game and where the best periods of his club career were. Where he is highlighted as the '10' the opposition defenders take that approach to him. His runs forward should remain untracked by him starting deeper, picking and choosing very carefully when to go (Lord knows he has the engine for it) and being covered by others when he does.

Ramsey like Ozil is a wasted asset if not used, but we shouldn't play either of them at the expense of the team if they simply aren't playing well enough. However a larger range of games will help discern, incidences from ongoing trends.

If I was coaching them I would be very tempted to divide the time accordingly by;

a) Partnerships/trios on the field (double pivot, left back - left mid, Right back - centre mid, Gk-CB-FB etc)

b) Zones/units (Defence, Midfield, attack)

c) Positioning, transitions, play as a team.

The only way way to overcome teams more talented individually is to be better as a team so we really have our work cut our for increasing the team cohesion and output

[IBK]

I actually think Ozil just needs a little time in his new team. Problem is the first 2 games have been tricky (and isn't an especially large sample size anyway) and Emery is still figuring it all out. It may still not look any better in 3/4/5 games time, but I have faith that it will and I think the sooner Emery cements his structure and identity the better. The faster they can all work out their parts within it and make sure the good things they do in it become a habit no more cohesive it will look.

As people have already pointed out though, we best well better make use of Ozil...because he will get paid either way.

I think about Ramsey the same as I thought about Wilshere. He should slip further back into midfield where his talents can affect the game and where the best periods of his club career were. Where he is highlighted as the '10' the opposition defenders take that approach to him. His runs forward should remain untracked by him starting deeper, picking and choosing very carefully when to go (Lord knows he has the engine for it) and being covered by others when he does.

Ramsey like Ozil is a wasted asset if not used, but we shouldn't play either of them at the expense of the team if they simply aren't playing well enough. However a larger range of games will help discern, incidences from ongoing trends.

If I was coaching them I would be very tempted to divide the time accordingly by;

a) Partnerships/trios on the field (double pivot, left back - left mid, Right back - centre mid, Gk-CB-FB etc)

b) Zones/units (Defence, Midfield, attack)

c) Positioning, transitions, play as a team.

The only way way to overcome teams more talented individually is to be better as a team so we really have our work cut our for increasing the team cohesion and output

Sensible post :good:

[Bumble]

For the money he is on - Ozil should be winning games on his own, he should be dragging the team along. He is probably on 50% more than anyone else. He doesn't look like someone who enjoys it, he has given up international football. Does he really have the motivation to perform at the top of his game? He only signed a new contract because nothing better came along. I am sure if City, Barca, PSG came in for him for £200k he would have been off.

World class players drag teams along with them, Ronaldo does it for Portugal. Even in team games you still want someone to look to, to inspire you and raise your game.

Do we need Ozil, no but we are stuck with him so we need to find a way players like him, Mikhi and Ramsey can play in the side to make us an affective unit. Not necessarily at the same time but there must be a solution to this.

Or it might just be simply we lost to two better sides and we will pulverise west ham on Saturday, then Cardiff week after and Newcastle and reality might dawn that actually we are in at the level we expect to be.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Even if he were sold, you get the feeling we wouldn't replace him with another world class player. Some may argue we don't need to replace him as we have others who can play at 10'....but I would say, well we don't have to play him now if we don't want to technically.

[Marc Overmars]

Even if he were sold, you get the feeling we wouldn't replace him with another world class player. Some may argue we don't need to replace him as we have others who can play at 10'....but I would say, well we don't have to play him now if we don't want to technically.

I'm not sure, I think we'd definitely look to bring in a marquee name. It would free up a massive chunk of wages and we'd still probably get 20-30m for him.

We got Auba in after losing Alexis, so I think those days of inadequately replacing top players are behind us. I hope!

[Bumble]

Even if he were sold, you get the feeling we wouldn't replace him with another world class player. Some may argue we don't need to replace him as we have others who can play at 10'....but I would say, well we don't have to play him now if we don't want to technically.

yes we might not replace directly but we might replace with someone who fits in the formation Emery wants to play and the style he wants. Although not sure we would get a lot of money for him not even £50m. But as you say we don't have to play him although I guess its psychologically difficult to not play your highest earner regularly.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I'm not sure, I think we'd definitely look to bring in a marquee name. It would free up a massive chunk of wages and we'd still probably get 20-30m for him.

We got Auba in after losing Alexis, so I think those days of inadequately replacing top players are behind us. I hope!
I think we would struggle. Auba was a strange situation with a genuinely world class player available for a fee we were willing to pay. There are very few examples of world class players around now we'd actually be willing to pay the fee for.

An equivalent attacking midfielder/number 10 we would never be willing to pay for now. Can you see us paying for somebody as good as De Bruyne.....or even someone like Eriksen with how much Spurs would charge....or Coutinho (if you see any of these as world class but if you don't the point is strengthened).

Maybe Dembele but even he would garner way more than we paid for Auba and this summer has kind of demonstrated we aren't willing to pony up.

[Power n Glory]

A player that consistently puts in 5/6/7 performances isn't hard to replace. We'd get better results taking a risk with a young player like Iwobi or just playing Mkhitaryan there. It can't be any worse than what we're currently getting from Ozil.

[Power n Glory]

Early reports say Ozil is 'ill' and will miss the West Ham game.

[I am invisible]

Early reports say Ozil is 'ill' and will miss the West Ham game.
He’s got to be careful with that illness shit now - Emery doesn’t look like he plays favourites, and he could find himself out of the starting XI for a while, if the team does well in his absence...

[Power n Glory]

He's probably been dropped.

[KSE Comedy Club]

He needs to be sold as soon as possible!!

There’s still time to flog him off abroad somewhere isnt there?!?

[Xhaka Can’t]

He needs to be sold as soon as possible!!

ThereÂ’s still time to flog him off abroad somewhere isnt there?!?

Mate. With his salary, we couldnÂ’t give him away.

Someone mentioned earlier that if teams like Barca came in with offers of 200k per week, he would have been off.

There is a reason why those teams didnÂ’t.

I canÂ’t think of one reason why we gave him the contract he is on now. We have put a number of players on contracts they just didnÂ’t earn.

But this waster is the poster boy for our bad business. It is beyond painful watching this asshole take the fucking piss out of this Club.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Surprisingly little talk of the alleged bust up on here....

[I am invisible]

Are we assuming that there was a bust up then?

[Mac76]

Emery's denial is pretty firm, but in a way both things could be true.

Ozil might have not been well, but they could still have had a disagreement

Either way, I think unless Ozil stops acting like a victim the whole time, he's finished for good at any kind of serious level or in any serious league

[dazthegooner]

Well according to Andy Dunn on the Sunday supplement we can't afford to freeze Ozil out as he is our star player...

[Coney]

It could be as simple as Özil being under the weather, Emery deciding not to play him as he wants a 100% fit team for each game and Özil being annoyed at being dropped. Nothing more than that. Any player who does not feel upset about not being selected should not be in the club, never mind the squad, so if Özil is upset about not being selected, that is not a bad thing.

Özil does get effected by the mood of the rest of the team - he is not the born leader type - but when he plays well, he gives brilliant and penetrating delivery of the ball. Players like him need drivers and leaders around them. I think that is one of the places where Wenger missed out - he didn't seem to think captains were so important. When we had success, we had the Vieira, Adams, Bergkamp and so on - key leader-players in different parts of the pitch - who drove the players around them.

Özil is not one of those players but he is not alone in this. Having said that, if Emery makes an example and gets rid of him in January resulting in the team working better, so be it.

[IBK]

https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/29/jose-mourinho-blames-alexis-sanchezs-poor-performance-man-utd-team-mates-7772508/

Was going to post in general football nonsense that schadenfreude is present and correct when we consider that Alexis has scored just 2 league goals for Mourinho at Manure, but thought that this headline is interesting when you consider what has been said about Oxil. Do we agree with Mourinho, and are his comments about Alexis evidence that Arsenal players are better than Manure's - given the shed full of goals Alexis scored for us?

[SMatthews]

https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/29/jose-mourinho-blames-alexis-sanchezs-poor-performance-man-utd-team-mates-7772508/

Was going to post in general football nonsense that schadenfreude is present and correct when we consider that Alexis has scored just 2 league goals for Mourinho at Manure, but thought that this headline is interesting when you consider what has been said about Oxil. Do we agree with Mourinho, and are his comments about Alexis evidence that Arsenal players are better than Manure's - given the shed full of goals Alexis scored for us?

Completely Maureen’s fault. Alexis needs to be the focal point of the attack, not out on the left playing second fiddle to Lukaku. Even when Giroud was in the centre everything was channelled into Alexis. He was the boss. He knew it, Giroud knew and so did everyone else in the team. Either drop Lukaku, or let Alexis be the main man in the frontline, even out wide. Unless that happens he’ll continue to be ineffective.

[Power n Glory]

Mourinho can't get the best out of Pogba, flopped with Salah, failed to spot the talent in De Bruyne and Lukaku, hasn't gotten much out of Willian and Cuadrado, Shevchenko was a world class striker and flopped under Mourinho....Jose just isn't good with attacking players.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Yup, the biggest factor is him, though Alexis' best days are probably behind him. Duracell bunnies don't last forever.

United have a plethora of talent at their disposal and I would stay bite their hands off for Martial or Rashford.

[GP]

Yup, the biggest factor is him, though Alexis' best days are probably behind him. Duracell bunnies don't last forever.

United have a plethora of talent at their disposal and I would stay bite their hands off for Martial or Rashford.

Mourinho is busy ruining them both.

[Power n Glory]

Yup, the biggest factor is him, though Alexis' best days are probably behind him. Duracell bunnies don't last forever.

United have a plethora of talent at their disposal and I would stay bite their hands off for Martial or Rashford.

We had Alexis at his peak where he scored the most career goals in a season and won back to back Copa America titles. Bit of a waste.

Best days are probably behind him but then I guess the same can be said for Ozil, Aubameyang and Mkhitaryan. How likely are they to explode into action for us now when they're all approaching 30 but off form?

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I think he's taken his eye off the pair of them and is focused in on Pogba. Pogba has just won the bleeding world cup, but Jose enjoys a challenge.

[IBK]

Completely Maureen’s fault. Alexis needs to be the focal point of the attack, not out on the left playing second fiddle to Lukaku. Even when Giroud was in the centre everything was channelled into Alexis. He was the boss. He knew it, Giroud knew and so did everyone else in the team. Either drop Lukaku, or let Alexis be the main man in the frontline, even out wide. Unless that happens he’ll continue to be ineffective.

So...the question is that if this idea that Alexis' poor form is the fault of his team mates is rejected, then isn't the same also true of Ozil, who in contrast to Alexis is failing to perform in much the same Arsenal team that Alexis did so well in?

[selassie]

It could be as simple as Özil being under the weather, Emery deciding not to play him as he wants a 100% fit team for each game and Özil being annoyed at being dropped. Nothing more than that. Any player who does not feel upset about not being selected should not be in the club, never mind the squad, so if Özil is upset about not being selected, that is not a bad thing.

Özil does get effected by the mood of the rest of the team - he is not the born leader type - but when he plays well, he gives brilliant and penetrating delivery of the ball. Players like him need drivers and leaders around them. I think that is one of the places where Wenger missed out - he didn't seem to think captains were so important. When we had success, we had the Vieira, Adams, Bergkamp and so on - key leader-players in different parts of the pitch - who drove the players around them.

Özil is not one of those players but he is not alone in this. Having said that, if Emery makes an example and gets rid of him in January resulting in the team working better, so be it.

Ozil is on 350k per week, he earns "elite" player money, like top 10 world class player money. Is he delivering?

[SMatthews]

So...the question is that if this idea that Alexis' poor form is the fault of his team mates is rejected, then isn't the same also true of Ozil, who in contrast to Alexis is failing to perform in much the same Arsenal team that Alexis did so well in?

Never a doubt in my mind Ozil is failing to live up to his potential. I could care less about how much he earns and it’s strange so many non-ticket holders harp on about it. The biggest disappointment is he doesn’t live up the talent he possesses. I’m not sure if it’s appication, if the league is too fast for his style of play or if it’s also perception and expectations on the part of the fans. Maybe it’s a combination of all three. Either way, I wouldn’t miss him if he left - as long as we had a replacement player added to the squad of some description.

[IBK]

Ozil is on 350k per week, he earns "elite" player money, like top 10 world class player money. Is he delivering?

No.And with the price tag comes a lack of excuses.

[Marc Overmars]

Never a doubt in my mind Ozil is failing to live up to his potential. I could care less about how much he earns and it’s strange so many non-ticket holders harp on about it. The biggest disappointment is he doesn’t live up the talent he possesses. I’m not sure if it’s appication, if the league is too fast for his style of play or if it’s also perception and expectations on the part of the fans. Maybe it’s a combination of all three. Either way, I wouldn’t miss him if he left - as long as we had a replacement player added to the squad of some description.

Agreed. I don’t think it’s a lack of application, Ozil’s running stats are always up there, to call him lazy is a lazy criticism in it itself. I just that I don’t think he’s THAT good. I look at other playmakers and think wow, with Ozil I’m often left scratching my head as to what he’s actually doing. Then again I’m not some footballing hipster so maybe I don’t understand his invisible genius.

So many excuses are wheeled out for this guy. It’s always some external factors that prevent him from showing his undoubted talent consistently. It’s never about him just not being good enough or to be more precise, as good as we feel he can be.

[selassie]

Never a doubt in my mind Ozil is failing to live up to his potential. I could care less about how much he earns and it’s strange so many non-ticket holders harp on about it. The biggest disappointment is he doesn’t live up the talent he possesses. I’m not sure if it’s appication, if the league is too fast for his style of play or if it’s also perception and expectations on the part of the fans. Maybe it’s a combination of all three. Either way, I wouldn’t miss him if he left - as long as we had a replacement player added to the squad of some description.

I care, he has set the bar to what a supposed top player at Arsenal should earn and he isn't really delivering top player performances.

Do you think when it comes to renegotiating a player who is delivering top performances they are going to accept a wage less than Ozil at his current level?

Why is it strange if non-ticket holders harp on about it?

[SMatthews]

I care, he has set the bar to what a supposed top player at Arsenal should earn and he isn't really delivering top player performances.

Do you think when it comes to renegotiating a player who is delivering top performances they are going to accept a wage less than Ozil at his current level?

Why is it strange if non-ticket holders harp on about it?

The finances of the club have no bearing on our lives. Every wage is ridiculous, be it £50k a week, or £500k. Where do you draw the line on what is normal or absurd now? It’s impossible.

I no longer care what the club spend on wages and fees because it’s all sickening. As long as you turn up and show your ability on match day that’s all I have interest in. We are so far removed from the inner workings of the club there’s no way of knowing what they’d do with the money if it wasn’t spent on a wage like Ozil’s.

The fact he isn’t living up to his talent is of more concern to me before his bank balance, as the former impacts my enjoyment as a fan directly. What he gets paid doesn’t.

[SMatthews]

Agreed. I don’t think it’s a lack of application, Ozil’s running stats are always up there, to call him lazy is a lazy criticism in it itself. I just that I don’t think he’s THAT good. I look at other playmakers and think wow, with Ozil I’m often left scratching my head as to what he’s actually doing. Then again I’m not some footballing hipster so maybe I don’t understand his invisible genius.

So many excuses are wheeled out for this guy. It’s always some external factors that prevent him from showing his undoubted talent consistently. It’s never about him just not being good enough or to be more precise, as good as we feel he can be.

Definitely agree about calliing a player lazy, being lazy in itself. Although, I think it was Raphael Honigstein who was talking about another player last season and spoke about how some players are able to get their running stats up as they know they are being monitored and make pointless runs and moves just to pad the stats. I’m not saying Ozil does that, but it’s an interesting idea that undercuts the idea of how important some of these millions of stats we are bombarded with really are.

[selassie]

The finances of the club have no bearing on our lives. Every wage is ridiculous, be it £50k a week, or £500k. Where do you draw the line on what is normal or absurd now? It’s impossible.

I no longer care what the club spend on wages and fees because it’s all sickening. As long as you turn up and show your ability on match day that’s all I have interest in. We are so far removed from the inner workings of the club there’s no way of knowing what they’d do with the money if it wasn’t spent on a wage like Ozil’s.

The fact he isn’t living up to his talent is of more concern to me before his bank balance, as the former impacts my enjoyment as a fan directly. What he gets paid doesn’t.

Neither mine.

My point was that I hope this crazy wage we've given to Ozil doesn't impact us on re-negotiating other players salaries or players we want to bring in. That's what concerns me.

If Ozil was performing to the level expected of a 350K per week player I wouldn't be so concerned but he isn't.

[selassie]

No.And with the price tag comes a lack of excuses.

Exactly. Ozil has become a major problem for us IMO.

[SMatthews]

Neither mine.

My point was that I hope this crazy wage we've given to Ozil doesn't impact us on re-negotiating other players salaries or players we want to bring in. That's what concerns me.

If Ozil was performing to the level expected of a 350K per week player I wouldn't be so concerned but he isn't.

But again, there’s no way of knowing whether it would or not. It’s an existential worry that can’t be answered. Some fans would say we have the funds to pay anything to anyone but choose not to. Others would say we don’t have the cash at all. We were paying stupid money to Theo for heavens sake. And loads of overrated youngsters who hadnt proven themselves in the game. It’s a worry not even worth being concerned about over what he does on the pitch. At least we can see for ourselves there. Everything else is just gossip and rumour.

[Power n Glory]

But again, there’s no way of knowing whether it would or not. It’s an existential worry that can’t be answered. Some fans would say we have the funds to pay anything to anyone but choose not to. Others would say we don’t have the cash at all. We were paying stupid money to Theo for heavens sake. And loads of overrated youngsters who hadnt proven themselves in the game. It’s a worry not even worth being concerned about over what he does on the pitch. At least we can see for ourselves there. Everything else is just gossip and rumour.

New league wage rules have put a cap on how much clubs can spend on wages. The Ozil wage situation is more important than you think.

[I am invisible]

Agreed. I don’t think it’s a lack of application, Ozil’s running stats are always up there, to call him lazy is a lazy criticism in it itself. I just that I don’t think he’s THAT good. I look at other playmakers and think wow, with Ozil I’m often left scratching my head as to what he’s actually doing. Then again I’m not some footballing hipster so maybe I don’t understand his invisible genius...
OK, controversial statement alert, but I’m not actually sure I’d class Özil as a playmaker? He gets a lot of assists, and sometimes they are genuinely mercurial, but by definition an assist doesn’t have to be anything more than the final pass, and he pads his numbers out with a lot of those too (along with set piece deliveries).

When I think back to how Bergkamp used to play, he didn’t always get the final pass or claim the assist, but he was an expert at taking the ball under pressure and then playing the key pass that would blow the opposition apart and take half their team out of the game - that’s what I’m looking out for in potential playmakers, and in this era of high pressing I think you mostly find that in deep midfield now (which is probably why we’re seeing so many small, technical attacking midfielders making the switch to that area).

I actually think Özil would make a bloody good winger, if he’d just give it a try and really embrace it? He’s an exceptional dribbler, we know he can play those final passes and rack up assists for fun, and he’s deceptively quick when he wants to be (without being blistering). Unfortunately, I doubt we’ll see it happen though.

The only other long-term option I see for him is trying to reinvent himself as a deep midfielder, as per the above, because I don’t think that traditional 10 role really exists any more (not behind the striker and not at the top clubs, anyway)? Again, though, I doubt we’ll see it.

Not sure what else that leaves? We either shape the team around his need to play as a 10 (which strikes me as a short-term option), or it’s benchville, which does no one any favours.