Post match v Southampton

[Dicks and chicks]

With a starting line up like that I'm not surprised. We should have played a few more experienced faces. Southampton are no pushovers and were never going to be beaten by our second string. A real shame as I think we could've gone on to win this competition

[Xhaka Can’t]

Maybe this season will be different.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Meh.

In isolation it isn't that big of a deal especially with an already busy fixture list but it's pretty disappointing because we've been here before in the past where a cowardly & poor exit out off the League cup had a knock on effect on our league performances over the winter months.

Meh, I hope things will be different this year but somehow I doubt it. As LDG said in the other thread, limp through winter, not sign anyone in January and only crawl into the top four on the last day of the season. Rinse and repeat.

[Globalgunner]

I will buy a Nebuchadnezzer of Champane the day that ossified old fart leaves this club. Same crap each year.

[Dicks and chicks]

Meh.

In isolation it isn't that big of a deal especially with an already busy fixture list but it's pretty disappointing because we've been here before in the past where a cowardly & poor exit out off the League cup had a knock on effect on our league performances over the winter months.

Meh, I hope things will be different this year but somehow I doubt it. As LDG said in the other thread, limp through winter, not sign anyone in January and only crawl into the top four on the last day of the season. Rinse and repeat.

Our reserve teams used to crush sides between 2005_2009 now it seems we have less strength in depth but our star players are A lot better

[The Emirates Gallactico]

What happened to all the other posts? :lol:

Purged by Letters?

Is dissent against the chosen one not allowed anymore on here?


Kim Jong-Letters :lol:

[Dicks and chicks]

The problem is that we should be at least competing at home against Southampton, we just don't have that strength in depth. Key to any title challenge is having the lesser squad players stepping up in tough times and we don't have that any more compared to 2004 teams were we had .edu,aliadiere etc

[Letters]

What happened to all the other posts? :lol:

Purged by Letters?

Is dissent against the chosen one not allowed anymore on here?


Kim Jong-Letters :lol:

Some of mine have gone too :(

[Goonermerree]

With a starting line up like that I'm not surprised. We should have played a few more experienced faces. Southampton are no pushovers and were never going to be beaten by our second string. A real shame as I think we could've gone on to win this competition

The embarrassing thing is, Southampton only fielded three from the side that beat Everton at the weekend, so they weren't exactly their best team either. I agree with resting some players, but we could have had someone on the bench to help out when needed, I know it's only the league cup, but I think we could all have done with a boost at the chance of a cup.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think the lineup was the problem

Jenkinson, Elneny, Gabriel, Gibbs, Ramsey, Iwobi, Coquelin......that's seven players in the team with a good amount of top flight experience

Perez is a 16 million signing not a player from the youth set up

So all this is nonsense, the fact is the players might change but the tactics and performances remain the same.

Calling Wenger all the names under the sun I find rather counter-productive, but at the same time i totally get the frustration. Tickets may be cheaper for the League Cup but still people are paying good money to watch squad players who get paid far in excess what they do a year in a week perform like contemptible cowards partly because that's what they are, and partly because you have a guy sitting on the bench who looks increasingly out of his depth in the modern game.

[Goonermerree]

I don't think the lineup was the problem

Jenkinson, Elneny, Gabriel, Gibbs, Ramsey, Iwobi, Coquelin......that's seven players in the team with a good amount of top flight experience

Perez is a 16 million signing not a player from the youth set up

So all this is nonsense, the fact is the players might change but the tactics and performances remain the same.

Calling Wenger all the names under the sun I find rather counter-productive, but at the same time i totally get the frustration. Tickets may be cheaper for the League Cup but still people are paying good money to watch squad players who get paid far in excess what they do a year in a week perform like contemptible cowards partly because that's what they are, and partly because you have a guy sitting on the bench who looks increasingly out of his depth in the modern game.

I agree, I kept thinking that all through the match, lots of those payers have started in the PL before, and Saints weren't up to full strength either.

[Letters]

The embarrassing thing is, Southampton only fielded three from the side that beat Everton at the weekend, so they weren't exactly their best team either. I agree with resting some players, but we could have had someone on the bench to help out when needed, I know it's only the league cup, but I think we could all have done with a boost at the chance of a cup.

So it was our second string vs their second string?
I'm not sure what, if anything, we should conclude from the result.

[Goonermerree]

So it was our second string vs their second string?
I'm not sure what, if anything, we should conclude from the result.

No a lot of people are saying that our line up wouldn't beat their tam, but it wasn't their best team. As someone said no strength in depth. Plus some of us would have liked us to have won.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No a lot of people are saying that our line up wouldn't beat their tam, but it wasn't their best team. As someone said no strength in depth. Plus some of us would have liked us to have won.

Even if it was their strongest team, it would have been a poor result. With no offence we are not talking about Chelsea, Liverpool, City or even Spurs or United we are talking about Southampton. The team we sent out was better than the feeble capitulation we saw (or so we should believe given their first team experience and wages).

[Letters]

I would have liked us to win but I'm not going to wet my pants over a defeat in a competition I'm not that bothered about when neither side put out a first choice team.
The important thing is we don't let it affect our league form.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I would have liked us to win but I'm not going to wet my pants over a defeat in a competition I'm not that bothered about when neither side put out a first choice team.
The important thing is we don't let it affect our league form.

Come on, how long have you been watching Arsenal?

Our form is rarely if ever that compartmentalised especially in the last few seasons......last night was a defeat that's been on the cards for ages. Our league form has been largely wretched, Middlesborough, Man United and Bournemouth we got five points from those fixtures and frankly it's five points we were incredibly lucky to get. We have massively benefited from the inability of teams to finish us off.

When this game exhibits all the familiar frailties that follow us about in every competition we play, no matter what team we put out....well you can write it off as an outlier if you like, but you'll excuse me for thinking that this is wilful blindness on your part.

[LDG]

Some of mine have gone too :(

What happened?

Last thing I posted was a joke at your expense (which is par for the course, sorry).

Didn't see what happened after :popcorn:

[Power n Glory]

I think as the season goes on we're seeing more holes in the squad. At first it looked like we had the depth and quality but it's looking as though that's not the case. The cup is unimportant but the game does tell us something more about this squad. We lack cover and quality in a lot of areas.

[Power n Glory]

What happened?

Last thing I posted was a joke at your expense (which is par for the course, sorry).

Didn't see what happened after :popcorn:

The site is ready to pack it in. Old age. GW has Alzheimer's. :rose:

[LDG]

I think as the season goes on we're seeing more holes in the squad. At first it looked like we had the depth and quality but it's looking as though that's not the case. The cup is unimportant but the game does tell us something more about this squad. We lack cover and quality in a lot of areas.

Thing that is missing is Santi.

Same last season. As soon as he got injured, the balance went.

[LDG]

The site is ready to pack it in. Old age. GW has Alzheimer's. :rose:

There is no sense of humour left anywhere on here.

It used to be such a giggle, and nobody minded if they got a bit of stick.

Can't even banter anymore :(

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think as the season goes on we're seeing more holes in the squad. At first it looked like we had the depth and quality but it's looking as though that's not the case. The cup is unimportant but the game does tell us something more about this squad. We lack cover and quality in a lot of areas.

Perhaps, although i'm willing to bet that many of these players would be performing exponentially better under a better manager. Don't get me wrong i do think players also need to take responsibility for their own performances, but i don't believe structure and guidance is forthcoming from Arsene Wenger let alone a tangible game plan.

[Power n Glory]

There is no sense of humour left anywhere on here.

It used to be such a giggle, and nobody minded if they got a bit of stick.

Can't even banter anymore :(

Sign of the times. I hardly talk Arsenal with any of my mates at all these days. I don't think any of them bothered to catch last nights game. Not even a text to scream about the result. :lol: Weary.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Sign of the times. I hardly talk Arsenal with any of my mates at all these days. I don't think any of them bothered to catch last nights game. Not even a text to scream about the result. :lol: Weary.

Yep pretty much, the more interesting and amusing conversations on here tend to be non football related.

[Power n Glory]

Perhaps, although i'm willing to bet that many of these players would be performing exponentially better under a better manager. Don't get me wrong i do think players also need to take responsibility for their own performances, but i don't believe structure and guidance is forthcoming from Arsene Wenger let alone a tangible game plan.

That team that played last night? It was a piss poor team. Not one exceptional player there that you could build a squad around.

[adzzzbatch]

I would have liked us to win but I'm not going to wet my pants over a defeat in a competition I'm not that bothered about when neither side put out a first choice team.
The important thing is we don't let it affect our league form.

I don't think you were saying this when we got to the final and you went to Wembley in 2011.

[Letters]

What happened?

Last thing I posted was a joke at your expense (which is par for the course, sorry).

Didn't see what happened after :popcorn:

I'm sure it was hilarious <_<
Jof just said that GW was lacking a little bit sharpness but it's showing great spirit.

GW :rose:

[Letters]

I don't think you were saying this when we got to the final and you went to Wembley in 2011.

I was absolutely livid when we lost that :lol:
It had been a long time since a trophy and it was our opportunity to get that monkey off our back.
Of course I'd have been pleased had we won. It's a trophy and if you get to the final then you might as well win it.
It's hardly the stuff of open top bus parades though, is it?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That team that played last night? It was a piss poor team. Not one exceptional player there that you could build a squad around.

Exceptional? No.....but they are all reasonably competent professionals and I think fairly decent squad players. They aren't world beaters, but we didn't need them to be

Ramsey the best you can describe him is inconsistent, he has been terrible lately.....and i'm not inclined to blame Wenger for that i think it's time for him to be offloaded

But Elneny, Holding, Gabriel, Gibbs, Perez, Coquelin, Iwobi these are all solid professionals, who are far better than the tepid watery effluence they produced last night.

Just to put it in context, this is Southampton....Southampton at home......so yes i did expect the players that went out last night to be able to despatch them with a decent game plan and actually having an understanding of their opponents. Rather than this rigid Barcelona light one size fits all plan that you would be right in saying that these players don't have the ability to execute (but given that they are squad players and only one or two of them at any one time will be required to fill in to understudy a rested or injured player they don't need to be).

[Marc Overmars]

That team that played last night? It was a piss poor team. Not one exceptional player there that you could build a squad around.

It was shite, a complete mash up of players.

What sort of understanding are Holding and Gabriel supposed to have? They don't even speak the same language. Jenkinson we know is poor, Elmo and Coq are limited, too soon for Jeff, Ramsey is horribly out of form and Perez looks nothing like the standard required 17m or not.

[Letters]

There is no sense of humour left anywhere on here.

It used to be such a giggle, and nobody minded if they got a bit of stick.

Can't even banter anymore :(

Time to resurrect my Joke du Jour? :cool:

[LDG]

Time to resurrect my Joke du Jour? :cool:

:ilt:

[Power n Glory]

Exceptional? No.....but they are all reasonably competent professionals and I think fairly decent squad players. They aren't world beaters, but we didn't need them to be

Ramsey the best you can describe him is inconsistent, he has been terrible lately.....and i'm not inclined to blame Wenger for that i think it's time for him to be offloaded

But Elneny, Holding, Gabriel, Gibbs, Perez, Coquelin, Iwobi these are all solid professionals, who are far better than the tepid watery effluence they produced last night.

Just to put it in context, this is Southampton....Southampton at home......so yes i did expect the players that went out last night to be able to despatch them with a decent game plan and actually having an understanding of their opponents. Rather than this rigid Barcelona light one size fits all plan that you would be right in saying that these players don't have the ability to execute (but given that they are squad players and only one or two of them at any one time will be required to fill in to understudy a rested or injured player they don't need to be).

Where is the structure in that squad? Where does the creativity come from? Some solid players but how is that team supposed to function? Who are the most creative and dangerous goal threats there?

[Power n Glory]

It was shite, a complete mash up of players.

What sort of understanding are Holding and Gabriel supposed to have? They don't even speak the same language. Jenkinson we know is poor, Elmo and Coq are limited, too soon for Jeff, Ramsey is horribly out of form and Perez looks nothing like the standard required 17m or not.

It's a horrible team. They can't play our brand of football and expect a win.

[Marc Overmars]

It's a horrible team. They can't play our brand of football and expect a win.

I doubt any thought was put in to how they would operate. Some had probably never played with each other before and I doubt they will again this season.

Wenger chucked this game. No two ways about it.

[Power n Glory]

I doubt any thought was put in to how they would operate. Some had probably never played with each other before and I doubt they will again this season.

Wenger chucked this game. No two ways about it.

It looks that way. You're right about Holding and Gabriel. I was first thinking we should have at least kept a clean sheet but when you look at that pairing along with Jenks at right back and Martinez in goal, forget it.

[Niall_Quinn]

There is no sense of humour left anywhere on here.

It used to be such a giggle, and nobody minded if they got a bit of stick.

Can't even banter anymore :(

Happy for you to login and scream a few obscenities at me every morning. Just don't do it in my wife's voice.

[Niall_Quinn]

Time to resurrect my Joke du Jour? :cool:

One of the key reasons nobody comes here.

[Goonermerree]

I doubt any thought was put in to how they would operate. Some had probably never played with each other before and I doubt they will again this season.

Wenger chucked this game. No two ways about it.

Ah, I thought he was just being arrogant and thought he could beat Southampton with any old dross, despite us being unlucky to beat them recently. Now you say that, I think you probably right. Now I'm angry.:fury:

[Niall_Quinn]

I posted up a ton of swear words (some of them quite possibly never heard before), all directed at Wenger. Now this art has been zapped, lost to legend, myth, rumour and no doubt conspiracy.

The gist of it went as follows:

Wenger, you're a cock, you're a cock, you're a cock!

[Niall_Quinn]

I doubt any thought was put in to how they would operate. Some had probably never played with each other before and I doubt they will again this season.

Wenger chucked this game. No two ways about it.

He's beyond paranoid about injuries too. You heard him the other day, saying he was preparing to give Alexis a winter break. Alexis will just love that, because he hates playing football. Wenger knows! I don't know why he just doesn't rest all the players all the time and build a bank and an accountant's office in the middle of the pitch. Yes he chucked it, like he does every year. No money or points in this cup, he's never won it, he's never valued it. Maureen will certainly praise the heavens if his rabble win it, because it's a competition that's there to be won. Win it if you can. But always, always try. Anything less is unforgivable. Ten changes. What a tool. Wenger chucks several games a season, these cup games plus CL ties when he thinks (always incorrectly) the job is done. He's a bare minimum guy. Absolute minimum required, whatever he feels he can get away with. He routinely throws a bucket of shit over any momentum we manage to generate. He doesn't understand momentum, he's allergic to it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's a horrible team. They can't play our brand of football and expect a win.

That's the point i am making though, "brand of football" is a nonsense....within reason you want to entertain your fans but surely unless you have the best players in the world in each position you don't have the luxury anymore of just playing "your game".

Iwobi and Perez are creative players and if you throw the Ox in, instead of Ramsey that should be no excuse whatsoever. A game like this played on a wednesday, well i guess it depends if you can be bothered to win or not. But within reason when you are changing up the side that drastically you tell the players whether they are playing or not a couple of days before and you drill into them a game plan best designed to tackle a team like Southampton.

Who knows we might have lost anyway, but the issue as always is less the result and more the performance and the performances no matter who we've picked has been smelly dog turd for the past two months.

And why?....because unless we are playing a big team and try and sit deep and play on the counter we always play the same way, no matter who we are playing, what their strengths and weaknesses are and no matter who is the name on our team sheet.

I take less issue with the wholesale changes than other people, i think there should be more squad rotation in general so when these drastic changes happen the squad tend to have had more game time and they aren't strangers to each other. And frankly Wenger tends to "beast" too many players anyway, what has happened with Cazorla is laughably predictable.

[Power n Glory]

That's the point i am making though, "brand of football" is a nonsense....within reason you want to entertain your fans but surely unless you have the best players in the world in each position you don't have the luxury anymore of just playing "your game".

Iwobi and Perez are creative players and if you throw the Ox in, instead of Ramsey that should be no excuse whatsoever. A game like this played on a wednesday, well i guess it depends if you can be bothered to win or not. But within reason when you are changing up the side that drastically you tell the players whether they are playing or not a couple of days before and you drill into them a game plan best designed to tackle a team like Southampton.

Who knows we might have lost anyway, but the issue as always is less the result and more the performance and the performances no matter who we've picked has been smelly dog turd for the past two months.

And why?....because unless we are playing a big team and try and sit deep and play on the counter we always play the same way, no matter who we are playing, what their strengths and weaknesses are and no matter who is the name on our team sheet.

I take less issue with the wholesale changes than other people, i think there should be more squad rotation in general so when these drastic changes happen the squad tend to have had more game time and they aren't strangers to each other. And frankly Wenger tends to "beast" too many players anyway, what has happened with Cazorla is laughably predictable.

If you believe that the team put out was good enough to win that game, then we should have been able to go out and play our game. If we're going to downplay the quality of Southampton then there should be no reason why we can't play our usual philosophy and win. Brand of football isn't a nonsense. Every coach has a style of play and as much as we criticize Wenger for being rigid, it's rare to find a coach that has that sort of fluid mindset to be play all styles to out match any opponent. But looking at this team and what Wenger picked to start, it's ordinary. I think resting key players was needed but it just exposes the depth of our squad. The players weren't good enough.

Perez played against Southampton on his debut start yet looked ordinary and that was with the first team playing. He's just come back from injury and still adjusting to the league. Iwobi was playing on the left from what I hear. He'd have probably been better as a number 10 but it's difficult to carve out chances in that position when you have low quality players all around. The players were just incapable of playing our game. For me, I see this game sort of game as a chance to integrate fringe players into our system but looks like no thought went into that system works with that team selection.

[selassie]

The sad thing about last night is we can't even hide behind the fact that we made loads of changes to the team because so did Southampton, they had 3 regular starters...the rest were made up of their backup players.

I didn't watch the game last night but the general consensus was that we were comprehensively outplayed.

This season is a replica of the previous one...we only get so far in this tournament because our backup players suck, we only get so far in CL...because we are a tier two team that is guaranteed to finish behind the tier one team in the group.

We only challenge for the league for a period of time before injuries and poor form decimates our season.

It's the same old shite but a different season...it's so mind numbing....:wacko:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If you believe that the team put out was good enough to win that game, then we should have been able to go out and play our game. If we're going to downplay the quality of Southampton then there should be no reason why we can't play our usual philosophy and win. Brand of football isn't a nonsense. Every coach has a style of play and as much as we criticize Wenger for being rigid, it's rare to find a coach that has that sort of fluid mindset to be play all styles to out match any opponent. But looking at this team and what Wenger picked to start, it's ordinary. I think resting key players was needed but it just exposes the depth of our squad. The players weren't good enough.

Perez played against Southampton on his debut start yet looked ordinary and that was with the first team playing. He's just come back from injury and still adjusting to the league. Iwobi was playing on the left from what I hear. He'd have probably been better as a number 10 but it's difficult to carve out chances in that position when you have low quality players all around. The players were just incapable of playing our game. For me, I see this game sort of game as a chance to integrate fringe players into our system but looks like no thought went into that system works with that team selection.

But even with style of play there is a variance to take into account the team your playing, as i've clearly stated we have been playing badly whoever we have picked so what's the bigger issue the personnel or the style?.

Is it going to be easier for a team like Southampton to beat this team rather than our first XI but nevertheless if this side is set out properly and not the airy fairy "believe in your own quality" guff I believe you are more likely to get better results.

And i'm consistent that we should be doing this with the first team as well as a pick n mix side. And generally look at the mistakes that lead to goals, it's often overdwelling on the ball in our own half when in doubt lump it out and that applies across the board.

I cannot be compelled to care that we don't have two extra meaningless fixtures in January with the possibility of a further meaningless fixture at a crucial time in our season, what i do care about is how we perform......and i think the performance was less of a consequence of the team we put out than the dopey old bird sitting on the bench.

[Ernesto]

It was shite, a complete mash up of players.

What sort of understanding are Holding and Gabriel supposed to have? They don't even speak the same language. Jenkinson we know is poor, Elmo and Coq are limited, too soon for Jeff, Ramsey is horribly out of form and Perez looks nothing like the standard required 17m or not.

I don't understand why these players can't have had more specific, intensive training sessions together to try and develop an understanding between themselves. Our first team picks itself but so, strangely, does the league cup team.

Get Gabriel and holding to work on a defensive partnership, see if or how Ramsey clicks with Perez. It's not a rocket science. We could've done this a month in advance ahead of the game

[fakeyank]

Ramsey cannot click with anyone. He only clicks in his own head and Wengers. I'd play Eboue as a CM before I play Ramsey there. What a turd.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ramsey cannot click with anyone. He only clicks in his own head and Wengers. I'd play Eboue as a CM before I play Ramsey there. What a turd.

I just don't get it, he slows the play down, he demonstrably makes players around him play worse, he couldn't trap a ball to save his life, his reading of the game is diabolical, his passing is inconsistent at best and he can't tackle.

Even I'm guilty of saying "oh he's been terrible lately" when no, that is his standard setting...even when he plays for Wales you can see that he slows their play down, but it's not as noticeable because Bale aside they don't have as many speed merchants in the side.

I think it's largely as much about confidence, you know he's on a bad run of form because you will see the vast majority of his passing is backwards

He has in the past scored some cracking goals, but so did Denilson

[Power n Glory]

But even with style of play there is a variance to take into account the team your playing, as i've clearly stated we have been playing badly whoever we have picked so what's the bigger issue the personnel or the style?.

Is it going to be easier for a team like Southampton to beat this team rather than our first XI but nevertheless if this side is set out properly and not the airy fairy "believe in your own quality" guff I believe you are more likely to get better results.

And i'm consistent that we should be doing this with the first team as well as a pick n mix side. And generally look at the mistakes that lead to goals, it's often overdwelling on the ball in our own half when in doubt lump it out and that applies across the board.

I cannot be compelled to care that we don't have two extra meaningless fixtures in January with the possibility of a further meaningless fixture at a crucial time in our season, what i do care about is how we perform......and i think the performance was less of a consequence of the team we put out than the dopey old bird sitting on the bench.

Our style definitely isn’t perfect and the first team have their problems but there is a danger of lumping it all in together. With the first team, I’m starting to see what we’re setting out to do with the partnerships across the pitch. It’s all very intricate when it clicks but when an important component of that system breaks (Cazorla) we start to see the struggle.

For this game, I can’t see the thought process behind the selection. I agree to extent about sending the players out with more instructions but I doubt it would have made much difference with the tools we had. It’s like sending a builder out with a hammer and screwdriver without the nails and screws. It looked like an unbalanced team without the vital pieces we need to carve a team open. It’s hard enough getting that out of the first team with one player missing. There wasn’t enough creativity in that squad. No goal threats and a very shaky defensive line up.

[selassie]

I just don't get it, he slows the play down, he demonstrably makes players around him play worse, he couldn't trap a ball to save his life, his reading of the game is diabolical, his passing is inconsistent at best and he can't tackle.

Even I'm guilty of saying "oh he's been terrible lately" when no, that is his standard setting...even when he plays for Wales you can see that he slows their play down, but it's not as noticeable because Bale aside they don't have as many speed merchants in the side.

I think it's largely as much about confidence, you know he's on a bad run of form because you will see the vast majority of his passing is backwards

He has in the past scored some cracking goals, but so did Denilson

I'm hoping we sell Ramsey this summer whilst we can still get a fair chunk of money for him. He unbalances our team and provides no real use in any position.

If he wants to be a "Lampard" or some kind of second striker then we should put him on the market and see what we can fetch for him because he's not needed at Arsenal.

[Niall_Quinn]

Solution is, obviously, to sack Wenger. Bring in a proper manager who will drill these players in the basics and they will all improve, as will the team in general.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Our style definitely isn’t perfect and the first team have their problems but there is a danger of lumping it all in together. With the first team, I’m starting to see what we’re setting out to do with the partnerships across the pitch. It’s all very intricate when it clicks but when an important component of that system breaks (Cazorla) we start to see the struggle.

For this game, I can’t see the thought process behind the selection. I agree to extent about sending the players out with more instructions but I doubt it would have made much difference with the tools we had. It’s like sending a builder out with a hammer and screwdriver without the nails and screws. It looked like an unbalanced team without the vital pieces we need to carve a team open. It’s hard enough getting that out of the first team with one player missing. There wasn’t enough creativity in that squad. No goal threats and a very shaky defensive line up.

Im going to disagree on this

As above i think the only way the team was unbalanced was in shoehorning Ramsey in, instead of playing the Ox from the outset

And arguably Ramsey could have played in central midfield instead of one of Coquelin/Elneny

But that's one or two changes instead of a wholesale problem, if you played with that side week in week out with a structured game plan you would in my mind be able to finish in the top six, and therefore should not be getting absolutely turned over by a Southampton side with just as many changes to their team especially as you have enough first team experience to mitigate for the youth players (and in fact how many youth players were there apart from Holding, Martinez and Jeff?)

If you had the two central midfielders play with positional discipline, have the two wingers use their pace on the flanks instead of cutting inside like the first team does and get balls in low behind the defenders you cause uncertainty.

Mistakes will happen with players that aren't overly sure of their team mate for sure, but this was more than that it was disorganised and chaotic....reverting to infuriating type.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Solution is, obviously, to sack Wenger. Bring in a proper manager who will drill these players in the basics and they will all improve, as will the team in general.

Infuriatingly simple, but i imagine if you made that suggestion to the board they'd think you were suggesting burning the emirates down to claim on the insurance

For me the last contract Wenger signed in 2014 was a Sop to convince any remaining doubters that even when giving funds, this guy is totally out of step with the rigours and challenges of the modern game and is too stubborn and yes too old to want to change.

[Power n Glory]

Im going to disagree on this

As above i think the only way the team was unbalanced was in shoehorning Ramsey in, instead of playing the Ox from the outset

And arguably Ramsey could have played in central midfield instead of one of Coquelin/Elneny

But that's one or two changes instead of a wholesale problem, if you played with that side week in week out with a structured game plan you would in my mind be able to finish in the top six, and therefore should not be getting absolutely turned over by a Southampton side with just as many changes to their team especially as you have enough first team experience to mitigate for the youth players (and in fact how many youth players were there apart from Holding, Martinez and Jeff?)

If you had the two central midfielders play with positional discipline, have the two wingers use their pace on the flanks instead of cutting inside like the first team does and get balls in low behind the defenders you cause uncertainty.

Mistakes will happen with players that aren't overly sure of their team mate for sure, but this was more than that it was disorganised and chaotic....reverting to infuriating type.

Top 6? Are you looking at the backline and keeper?

Are you even looking at the top 6? That's Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City, Spurs and Utd we're up against! It's not good enough team to beat those and they already lost to Southampton. I don't fancy that team for the top 10.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Top 6? Are you looking at the backline and keeper?

Are you even looking at the top 6? That's Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City, Spurs and Utd we're up against!

Yes and they'd all finish above us, but finishing 6th is still top six.

Gabriel was a first choice defender for much of last season, Jenkinson played for long stints in previous arsenal sides that have finished 3rd or 4th and the goalkeeper is for me better than Ospina who played long stints between the sticks for us.

The only area out and out where i think we might suffer is asking Jeff to be our playmaker week in week out, but no i don't think i'm being especially unrealistic. I'm not overrating these players, i just think most of the premier league is actually dross outside of the top six.

You talk about our players lacking creativity, i don't think Southampton are overly abundant in creative players (and the ones they played last night are still cutting their teeth) but they set out with a solid game plan and knew when to shut up shop.

[Maestro]

The sad thing about last night is we can't even hide behind the fact that we made loads of changes to the team because so did Southampton, they had 3 regular starters...the rest were made up of their backup players.

I didn't watch the game last night but the general consensus was that we were comprehensively outplayed.

This season is a replica of the previous one...we only get so far in this tournament because our backup players suck, we only get so far in CL...because we are a tier two team that is guaranteed to finish behind the tier one team in the group.

We only challenge for the league for a period of time before injuries and poor form decimates our season.

It's the same old shite but a different season...it's so mind numbing....:wacko:

Yes but you must judge the season, at the end of the season, as well you know.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's hard to tell sometimes what is poor form and what is good form, because we play tepidly most of the time.

There are more fingers on one hand than the amount of times i have actually really enjoyed watching us play this calender year let alone this season

What i hate the most?....watching the first half hour of Chelsea vs Spurs on Saturday looking at Spurs and thinking i wish we could play a bit more like that.

I want us to win as much as i always have, but there is so little enjoyment in watching us play football any more. I hated the way Spain play even when they was successful with far better technical players than us, too much faff and not enough going for the jugular.

Arsenal have always been accused of overplaying under Wenger, but at our best we could cut sides to shreds on the counter attack.

[Niall_Quinn]

Infuriatingly simple, but i imagine if you made that suggestion to the board they'd think you were suggesting burning the emirates down to claim on the insurance

For me the last contract Wenger signed in 2014 was a Sop to convince any remaining doubters that even when giving funds, this guy is totally out of step with the rigours and challenges of the modern game and is too stubborn and yes too old to want to change.

So they'd be well up for it then?

[Power n Glory]

Yes and they'd all finish above us, but finishing 6th is still top six.

Gabriel was a first choice defender for much of last season, Jenkinson played for long stints in previous arsenal sides that have finished 3rd or 4th and the goalkeeper is for me better than Ospina who played long stints between the sticks for us.

The only area out and out where i think we might suffer is asking Jeff to be our playmaker week in week out, but no i don't think i'm being especially unrealistic. I'm not overrating these players, i just think most of the premier league is actually dross outside of the top six.

You talk about our players lacking creativity, i don't think Southampton are overly abundant in creative players (and the ones they played last night are still cutting their teeth) but they set out with a solid game plan and knew when to shut up shop.

As I said before, this is a game about integration and seeing who can fit into the first team. We're not a team that plays with wingers that stay wide and drastically altering our game for the B team just to get through to the next round.

If this were a CL game and we're stuck for answers against a stubborn team, I'd agree. But these cup games have always been used to see who on the fringes can make the step into the first team.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes but you must judge the season, at the end of the season, as well you know.

And you must judge only the season, but not the manager, as even more well you know.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

As I said before, this is a game about integration and seeing who can fit into the first team. We're not a team that plays with wingers that stay wide and drastically altering our game for the B team just to get through to the next round.

If this were a CL game and we're stuck for answers against a stubborn team, I'd agree. But these cup games have always been used to see who on the fringes can make the step into the first team.

The point is it wouldn't just be for the B Team it would be using the B Team as an experimental specimen for a Plan B

You can lump as many kids you want into a side to test their readiness but it seems pointless unless you can set up in a way that can play to the strengths of the unit and find a way of integrating them into the first team

It's not like I've never said we should employ pace to get in behind the defence in first team games, I've constantly said it and to be fair sometimes we do but it never seems to happen often enough, we might try it once or twice and then end up trying to thread a pass through the eye of a needle in a congested centre.

[Power n Glory]

The point is it wouldn't just be for the B Team it would be using the B Team as an experimental specimen for a Plan B

You can lump as many kids you want into a side to test their readiness but it seems pointless unless you can set up in a way that can play to the strengths of the unit and find a way of integrating them into the first team

It's not like I've never said we should employ pace to get in behind the defence in first team games, I've constantly said it and to be fair sometimes we do but it never seems to happen often enough, we might try it once or twice and then end up trying to thread a pass through the eye of a needle in a congested centre.

What's the point of building a Plan B blueprint with the second stringers when it's needed for the first team?

Wenger is a poor coach but the loss reflects badly on the players also. That's the new bit of information to take away from the game. We already know Wenger won't adjust his tactics but it would have been good to at least hear about a good performance from one of the players.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What's the point of building a Plan B blueprint with the second stringers when it's needed for the first team?

Wenger is a poor coach but the loss reflects badly on the players also. That's the new bit of information to take away from the game. We already know Wenger won't adjust his tactics but it would have been good to at least hear about a good performance from one of the players.


I never once said it doesn't reflect badly on the players, but ultimately as much as they do have to look at themselves you have to question why if you play two different sets of players you end up with the same fetid stool.

And why wouldn't you experiment with changing the system up in a league cup game as well as changing the personnel?. Like I say I'm not keen on playing first team lets twice in a week if it can be avoided and I believe it can be avoided if a manager can set up the B team to play in a way to beat a team like Southampton.
You are positing that the team sent out were incapable of beating Southampton, I'm saying not only could they have but even just some tactical tweaking and a basic game plan could have made all the difference.

[Goonermerree]

We've won two trophies in eleven years, who are we to say that this cup is meaningless, with bigger fish to fry. We don't even have a frying pan!

[Power n Glory]

I never once said it doesn't reflect badly on the players, but ultimately as much as they do have to look at themselves you have to question why if you play two different sets of players you end up with the same fetid stool.

And why wouldn't you experiment with changing the system up in a league cup game as well as changing the personnel?. Like I say I'm not keen on playing first team lets twice in a week if it can be avoided and I believe it can be avoided if a manager can set up the B team to play in a way to beat a team like Southampton.
You are positing that the team sent out were incapable of beating Southampton, I'm saying not only could they have but even just some tactical tweaking and a basic game plan could have made all the difference.

We already know that Wenger has his flaws. That's not new information. The surprise to me is the lack of quality and depth from the bench. As for systems and tactics, there is a reason why clubs try to have their reserve and youth teams training to the same philosophy and tactics.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

So yeah with the news today that Santi has to undergo an operation and will be out for at least three months and with Elneny hobbling off yesterday hello inevitable winter injury crisis. :rolleyes:

And with Wilshere out on loan (with no recall option) we don't have anyone who can dictate the game from midfield. I fully expect our play to become even more turgid than it has been in November.

[Kano]

Elneny had the shits I think, not an ankle injury.

[Gooner23]

Bizarre decison to play him then.

Xhaka needs a run in the side now. With either Elneny or Coq alongside him.

I wasn't against a bit of rotation (Sanchez definitely needed a rest) but Wenger went too far. Ox should have started on the right and likes of Ozil and Theo could have been on the bench. The first round is for the youngsters, not a QF.

But I'm with others that say the players need to have a look at themselves. Plenty of experience out there still and they just didn't perform.

[Globalgunner]

Bizarre decison to play him then.

Xhaka needs a run in the side now. With either Elneny or Coq alongside him.

I wasn't against a bit of rotation (Sanchez definitely needed a rest) but Wenger went too far. Ox should have started on the right and likes of Ozil and Theo could have been on the bench. The first round is for the youngsters, not a QF.

But I'm with others that say the players need to have a look at themselves. Plenty of experience out there still and they just didn't perform.

Yes they did. They played to the style and methods that we are very used to. They played the same way the senior team plays. The only difference is that Sanchez was not playing to do what others cannot seem to do. Put the ball in the net. We are a team who even with Sanchez has averaged 3 shots (i guess) in each game. This is what we do. Players built and trained for meaningless possession. I can confidently predict that we will not win any game that Sanchez does not play in.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes they did. They played to the style and methods that we are very used to. They played the same way the senior team plays. The only difference is that Sanchez was not playing to do what others cannot seem to do. Put the ball in the net. We are a team who even with Sanchez has averaged 3 shots (i guess) in each game. This is what we do. Players built and trained for meaningless possession. I can confidently predict that we will not win any game that Sanchez does not play in.

Hope that's not true because Clouseau has plans to bench him. Apparently a bloke who's injured so relaxes by going to the beach to do intensive workouts, a bloke who almost has his ankle broken but plays on and wins the Copa, a bloke who has a hamstring injury and pitches up the next week to score against Uruguay, a bloke who demands to play, runs his bollocks off every game and needs to be sedated to sit still for a minute - well he needs a winter break. According to the inspector.

[Letters]

We've won two trophies in eleven years, who are we to say that this cup is meaningless, with bigger fish to fry. We don't even have a frying pan!

Or two in 3 years. #glasshalffull.

[Power n Glory]

Yes they did. They played to the style and methods that we are very used to. They played the same way the senior team plays. The only difference is that Sanchez was not playing to do what others cannot seem to do. Put the ball in the net. We are a team who even with Sanchez has averaged 3 shots (i guess) in each game. This is what we do. Players built and trained for meaningless possession. I can confidently predict that we will not win any game that Sanchez does not play in.

Would you be satisfied with just the league cup this year?

[Globalgunner]

My bugbear is that there seems to be no forensic analysis of defeats at this club, no introspection, no root and branch review of each failed season. The good ship Arsenal just keeps sailing on. The players out against Southampton should have easily been able to give them a good game but couldnt. They play to instructions. Instructions that take all the spontaneity out of players. Great players become good and good players become bang average at this club. It takes a player of exceptional ability like Sanchez to bail us out each season. Even Wengers macabre methods cannot obfuscate the innate quality of a player like Sanchez who will always do what comes natural

If you look back to when we left Highbury, we have always been blessed with at least 1 exceptional player to haul our asses to CL qualification. Henry, RVP, Fabregas and now Sanchez. How long will this continue, because even having 6 WC players has not been able to see us win the CL and 1 or 2 has not been good enough to see us win the PL.

We see the same thing every season and pretend its new this year because the calender says so. By design or lack of effort we have not won the EFL cup under Wenger. Realistically it is the only cup we could have challenged for this season. Now it is gone.

[Niall_Quinn]

Would you be satisfied with just the league cup this year?

I'd be satisfied with tucking it away in the trophy cabinet as a stepping stone to bigger things. What I'm not satisfied with is treating the competition with contempt, blowing it off and all in the name of saving up for something we never achieve anyway. We aren't winning a title unless every last club around us collapses and we can forget the CL. Besides, Wenger has never won this cup. You'd think he'd want to add it to the collection before he leaves the club. In 3, 6, 9, 30 years.

[Power n Glory]

I'd be satisfied with tucking it away in the trophy cabinet as a stepping stone to bigger things. What I'm not satisfied with is treating the competition with contempt, blowing it off and all in the name of saving up for something we never achieve anyway. We aren't winning a title unless every last club around us collapses and we can forget the CL. Besides, Wenger has never won this cup. You'd think he'd want to add it to the collection before he leaves the club. In 3, 6, 9, 30 years.

Be honest. Does winning that cup change your perspective on Wenger? Would it instill more belief in us going on to win bigger things? I highly doubt that anything would change from the fans or players. I can't see Ozil or Sanchez looking to extend their contract if we won that trophy and I don't believe in the springboard effect with this team. We won two FA Cups back to back and with the easiest season ahead of us, still fluffed our lines allowing Leicester to scoop the league title. It's win or bust for us. The baby steps just won't cut it anymore. No more stepping stones.

[Niall_Quinn]

Be honest. Does winning that cup change your perspective on Wenger? Would it instill more belief in us going on to win bigger things? I highly doubt that anything would change from the fans or players. I can't see Ozil or Sanchez looking to extend their contract if we won that trophy and I don't believe in the springboard effect with this team. We won two FA Cups back to back and with the easiest season ahead of us, still fluffed our lines allowing Leicester to scoop the league title. It's win or bust for us. The baby steps just won't cut it anymore. No more stepping stones.

No way would it change my perspective on Wenger, I'm at the stage now where that perspective is not going to change.