Match Thread Arsenal v West Brom 26/12/16 1-0 home win

[Globalgunner]

We won...but thats the only positive I guess. We at least can eat the turkey and booze w/o guilt. Yippee!!!

[dostoy]

Well done Olivier Giroud for a great header.

I saw it live and it was a great looping header from a cross by Ozil.

We needed to win that after what has happened recently, but much more is needed next time.

[fakeyank]

Papering over cracks.

I can see us going on an unbeaten run now. That should wake up some of the optimistic crowd, and then see their optimism die a slow painful death after Feb.

[Goonermerree]

We overcame mental and physical fatigue to win that.Don't know how we'll fare next week when we play Sunday, then Tuesday!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Typical win against Pulis. I don't get why that guy comes with the same tactics every season and loses every single time.

[Letters]

A win's a win I guess but hardly inspiring.
Damage is already done

[Niall_Quinn]

Knew in advance how this game would go so didn't bother with it. Another couple of flat track bully, stink up the place, lazy arse non-performances and it'll be time to offer Wenger his new contract. Then I'm out. Another 2 years of this? No way. All hope hinges on Wenger rejecting the contract and leaving. That won't happen so this club is done for the foreseeable future.

[rodders]

Clearly Wenger is incapable of delivering another Premier League title

[Goonermerree]

A win's a win I guess but hardly inspiring.
Damage is already done


I think that's why I felt despondent watching the match.

[GP]

Good win.

[Marc Overmars]

The first of 6 extremely winnable games in a row.

Job done, same again for Palace.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Slight change from games where we've had hardly any chances, by the look of the highlights we created a lot especially in second half and it was only Ben Foster who stopped it from being an absolute root.

No not a fantastic performance, but would have been ridiculously harsh on us had we not won.

These comments are said in the context of this one game I should add

[Xhaka Can’t]

Gutted I didn't stay up to watch this.

[Niall_Quinn]

Gutted I didn't stay up to watch this.

Just watch it next week instead. Or the week after.

[Xhaka Can’t]

You should consider a career in marketing.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Yeah hardly inspiring stuff but you could see the effort and urgency was there so if we'd have dropped points It would have looked fairly feeble but been very unlucky. The game was practically played in their third.

Fat Sam next.

[AFC Leveller]

With the players we have we should be doing a lot better, we just need a manager who has a plan and plays to his players strength. We struggled yesterday because the manager didnt have a plan, he somehow didnt see that Pulis packed the middle of the park and we needed to stretch the play (see the only goal) a bit and vary it up. Palace up next will probably be a similar story although Palace have a bit more quality and pace up front so will be dangerous on the counter.

ona side note, I watched some of the Chelsea game and i though Jack did really well. every time he had the ball he made things happen. he drove forward and that ball to set up Afobe one on one was world class.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Chelsea played this West Brom side two weeks ago and created far less than we did.

Doubtless it seems ridiculous to play Giroud and not ping more crosses in than we did. But ultimately even for sides in top form it's not easy to break them down.

[Power n Glory]

Over 70% possession, both Xhaka, and Ozil completing over 100 passes. Coquelin completes 91. Ozil is back to creating chances, 7 created with 1 assists but it comes at the 86th minute?

Wenger will mistake the above stats for something positive and play the same team again. We'll follow the same tragedy as last season.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Typical win against Pulis. I don't get why that guy comes with the same tactics every season and loses every single time.

Shit Arsene Wenger!

He's just a shit Arsene Wenger.

Shit Arsene Wenger.

He's just a shit Arsene Wenger!

[Power n Glory]

Olivier Giroud was undoubtedly Arsenal’s hero against West Bromwich Albion. With the Gunners struggling to break down Baggies manager Tony Pulis’ stubborn defence, the Frenchman rose to send a looping header over the outstanding Ben Foster. The Emirates erupted with relief. However, Giroud’s vital contribution should not be enough for him to keep his place in the side.

Speaking to Arsenal.com about his emotions after the game, Giroud said:

It has been a big relief. We pushed and pushed towards the end, and we kept believing in our game. It’s a big finish, an amazing feeling. It’s nice for us because we always try to find a good solution and we’ve been a bit unlucky recently. Thank God we succeeded.

[...]

I would like to say that we were very strong as a team, with a good, strong mentality and it was very important to win. We have shown a big mental strength once again.


However, his joy might be short-lived. When Arsenal face Crystal Palace on New Year’s Day, Giroud ought to be back on the bench.

It might sound counter-intuitive to relegate your match-winner to the substitutes' bench. However, the argument against that suggestion is that had Arsenal started with a more cohesive attacking unit, they might have been out of sight long before Giroud planted his header into the far corner.

This, after all, was Giroud’s first Premier League start of the season. The fact that the Frenchman, who was Arsenal’s starting centre-forward for the majority of last season, has had to wait until the end of December to be named in the starting XI is quite remarkable. Were it not for the obvious need for rotation over the festive period, one would almost wonder if Arsene Wenger brought Giroud into the side simply to ensure he got a game before 2016 was out.


Olivier Giroud was making his first start of the Premier League season.

The fact is that Arsenal have evolved beyond starting Giroud this season. Redeploying Alexis Sanchez through the middle has been the foundation of their success in 2016/17, bringing speed and variety to their attack.

Reverting to using Giroud feels like a regressive step. He offers no threat in behind and tends to be relatively static, focusing on hold-up play within the width of the penalty box. With Giroud leading the line, Arsenal can be pedestrian and predictable.

What’s more, Arsenal have grown accustomed to playing with Alexis as their spearhead. It has transformed their style of play, so the idea that they can substitute Giroud in and expect a fluid performance is absurd. Starting the Frenchman necessitates a complete change of approach, and against West Brom, they appeared incapable of adapting quickly enough.

Giroud’s greatest strength is his aerial ability, yet Arsenal did not deliver him with the supply he needs. They could not adjust their strategy to swinging in crosses—and they didn't have the players to do so either.

If Arsenal are going to play with Giroud, they need to surround him with traditional wingers who are willing to get to the byline and whip balls into the six-yard box. With both Theo Walcott and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain unavailable for selection, Wenger named Alexis and Alex Iwobi on the flanks. Neither player is inclined to operate on the touchline, instead drifting infield to function as auxiliary playmakers.

Without the requisite service, Giroud is marginalised.

In the end, it was Mesut Ozil who took matters into his own hands. After the introduction of Lucas Perez, Ozil switched from the centre to operate from the right flank. When he cut infield in the 86th minute, he floated a marvellous cross into Giroud’s path. The weight on the ball was so good that the Frenchman was able to nod it over the advancing keeper and into the far corner.

A relieved Olivier Giroud celebrates Arsenal's winner.
Kirsty Wigglesworth/Associated Press
After the match, Wenger expressed his satisfaction with Arsenal’s display—including Giroud’s late contribution. He told Arsenal.com:

Yes, we created plenty of chances. We needed today to be patient, keep our composure in our game and not make a defensive mistake - that’s what we did … Overall I believe West Brom were well-organised, we passed the ball quite well and quickly but we didn’t find the incisiveness that is needed because they basically played six across in their final third. We have little pockets where you usually get in but we found it difficult today. But we kept going and in the end when we couldn’t make the difference on the ground, we made it in the air with maybe the only player in our team who can do that.

Wenger is probably right that no other Arsenal player could have scored that goal. However, Giroud has been highly effective this season doing precisely that by coming off the bench. There is nothing to prevent him making that kind of decisive impact as a late substitute—but had Arsenal begun with Alexis through the middle, they might not have needed rescuing with a last-gasp winner.

Arsene Wenger must make changes for the match with Crystal Palace.

When Arsenal play Palace later this week, Alexis must be restored to his best position. Wenger might see fit to make one or two other changes—if Walcott is fit, he’ll certainly be in line for a start. Kieran Gibbs picked up a knock which forced him to be substituted, so Nacho Monreal is another who could come into the starting line-up.

There’s also a case for a change in midfield. Granit Xhaka and Francis Coquelin were the men Wenger tasked with controlling the middle of the park, but the limitations of Coquelin’s passing range were exposed. West Brom were willing to relinquish possession, which left Arsenal needing players with more penetrative passing.

The late introduction of Aaron Ramsey helped turn the tide in Arsenal’s favour, and it would be no great surprise to see him included from the start against Crystal Palace.

Eagles manager Sam Allardyce is likely to have watched West Brom’s performance with great interest—he’ll be adopting a similarly defensive approach when he brings his new team to the Emirates Stadium.

However, the key change will be putting Giroud back on the bench. The powerful forward showed against the Baggies that he can still play an important role for Arsenal—but that role should not extend beyond cameos from the bench. He is a superb substitute but no longer a starter.

James McNicholas is Bleacher Report's lead Arsenal correspondent and will be following the club from a London base throughout 2016/17. Follow him on Twitter here.

Giroud should be our super sub. Not our starter. Always has been a plan B striker.

[Goonermerree]

It amuses me to hear of Wenger and players talking about mental strength, when pundits and fans alike think we totally lack mental strength when the heat is on.

Also, Perez was pinging balls into the box when he came on, I'd like to see him get a bit more game time, we paid enough for him!

[Letters]

Saw the highlights, looked like we actually played quite well and could and should have won by more.
It is hard to compete with a side who win 12 in a row, their run can't keep going on forever but it seems right now that other teams are better placed to capitalise when they do start dropping points.

[Goonermerree]

Highlights always look better, MOTD showed about 5 mins of first half highlights when there was much tippy tappy going on and not worth showing. Forster did do some good saves but a few of them were in a 5 min spell when we were all over them and Sanchez hit the bar. They had some chances too and should have scored when their player skied it over when it was easier to put it in the net. I agree Chelsea will slip up and it show how a good run can take you up the league. They lost to Pool and us and haven't looked back.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Saw the highlights, looked like we actually played quite well and could and should have won by more.
It is hard to compete with a side who win 12 in a row, their run can't keep going on forever but it seems right now that other teams are better placed to capitalise when they do start dropping points.

No you're right we can't do anything about what Chelsea are doing, and that's why i say regardless of Chelsea's 12 match winning run the defeats to Everton and City were unacceptable.

The performance against Everton was poor, the performance against City was diabolically shambolic....if we'd put in a better performance against both and still lost...what can you do?....but i suspect if we'd performed to our potential we'd have lost neither.

Chelsea have the advantage because they are not having to play champions league football which has taken a lot out of us, but we have not rotated enough. Not set out teams to play against specific opposition and not had a semblance of a game plan.

[Power n Glory]

Highlights always look better, MOTD showed about 5 mins of first half highlights when there was much tippy tappy going on and not worth showing. Forster did do some good saves but a few of them were in a 5 min spell when we were all over them and Sanchez hit the bar. They had some chances too and should have scored when their player skied it over when it was easier to put it in the net. I agree Chelsea will slip up and it show how a good run can take you up the league. They lost to Pool and us and haven't looked back.

Caught the highlights as well and it always looks better. Sanchez looked the most active from the clips but not much from anyone else. We were lucky not to go a goal down and we've seen it happen so many times before. This isn't the way to go.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Caught the highlights as well and it always looks better. Sanchez looked the most active from the clips but not much from anyone else. We were lucky not to go a goal down and we've seen it happen so many times before. This isn't the way to go.

I would argue though that being lucky not to go one goal down was more down to an individual error rather than the whole set up of the team

Not that i'm saying the set up or game plan was correct. But i also think we would have had difficulty anyway simply because of the amount of west brom players sitting in front of us, we were actually putting low crosses in and trying to go in behind them at times (of course that would help more if we weren't playing Giroud because of his immobility) but they were always able to cut it out because of simple number of players they had in the box.

I don't think we were brilliant, but neither were we terrible....this is not a side that is going to be torn to pieces by sides playing away from home....Liverpool, Bournemouth, Chelsea and us have beaten them as the home side and all by only a one goal margin.

Palace are much more porous and i don't think Fat boy is going to have been there long enough to address that (plus he has a dreadful managerial record at the Emirates...think he's come away with a draw once in a cup tie) so i expect a few more goals against Palace on Sunday.

[Niall_Quinn]

Are we serious title challengers though?

No. Nothing so far this season to indicate we'll be challenging come May.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Are we serious title challengers though?

No. Nothing so far this season to indicate we'll be challenging come May.

No of course we aren't

I'm only talking in the context of one game, if we were serious about challenging for the title we wouldn't have lost both the everton and city games they were important barometers which we totally failed. We aren't going to recover a gap against a side that has only dropped eight points all season.

[Niall_Quinn]

Sadly I think we may recover that gap, only to blow it all again at the next crunch challenge. I don't think Arsenal is done yet, they'll make us hope again before this season is out.

Maybe I'm completely bonkers (no maybe about it) but I have a sneaking feelinginsanity telling me we might do well in the CL this year. Sounds beyond crazy when put into words and then typed on a screen. But I can't kick it.

[Power n Glory]

I would argue though that being lucky not to go one goal down was more down to an individual error rather than the whole set up of the team

Not that i'm saying the set up or game plan was correct. But i also think we would have had difficulty anyway simply because of the amount of west brom players sitting in front of us, we were actually putting low crosses in and trying to go in behind them at times (of course that would help more if we weren't playing Giroud because of his immobility) but they were always able to cut it out because of simple number of players they had in the box.

I don't think we were brilliant, but neither were we terrible....this is not a side that is going to be torn to pieces by sides playing away from home....Liverpool, Bournemouth, Chelsea and us have beaten them as the home side and all by only a one goal margin.

Palace are much more porous and i don't think Fat boy is going to have been there long enough to address that (plus he has a dreadful managerial record at the Emirates...think he's come away with a draw once in a cup tie) so i expect a few more goals against Palace on Sunday.

All goals conceded are down to individual errors. Especially for us when we concede from corners and set pieces. The tactical set up plays it part because we played a system that makes it difficult to break teams down that sit deep. You can't play it through the middle with Giroud. The longer we go without scoring a goal, the more vulnerable we are to being sucker punched because tiredness and lapses in concentration.

Pulis will always set up a stubborn team but our best result against his side came at the end of the 2014/15 season where Theo scored a hat trick. They sat deep and in numbers but worm to bits and we won 4-1. City beating them 4-0 recently is another example of what happens with a quick nimble striker can do to them. It makes no sense playing that way with Giroud against teams that park the bus.

Need to rewatch that Liverpool game but they scored two goals in the first half and conceded late on towards the end of the game. That suggests a different sort of game compared to ours.

[Niall_Quinn]

All goals conceded are down to individual errors. Especially for us when we concede from corners and set pieces. The tactical set up plays it part because we played a system that makes it difficult to break teams down that sit deep. You can't play it through the middle with Giroud. The longer we go without scoring a goal, the more vulnerable we are to being sucker punched because tiredness and lapses in concentration.

Pulis will always set up a stubborn team but our best result against his side came at the end of the 2014/15 season where Theo scored a hat trick. They sat deep and in numbers but worm to bits and we won 4-1. City beating them 4-0 recently is another example of what happens with a quick nimble striker can do to them. It makes no sense playing that way with Giroud against teams that park the bus.

Need to rewatch that Liverpool game but they scored two goals in the first half and conceded late on towards the end of the game. That suggests a different sort of game compared to ours.

That's true, but only if you include the manager in the calculation. The stupid way in which we are set up to allow space on the flanks begs for pressure to be put on defenders and that extra pressure can contribute to individual mistakes. If a player just can't get to the ball quickly enough because the distance is ridiculous then perhaps it is the player's fault for being too slow but certainly it is the manager's fault for setting up the system to allow such space and then buying and selecting players that have insufficient pace to play such a cavalier and, frankly, lunatic defensive system. Wenger really is a fucking idiot. It's not just big-mouthed fans making armchair assumptions (which is normally the case when fans spout off). We have the genuine article here. A bone-fide idiot in charge of a football club. I know some fans still find that impossible to believe, but look at the evidence. The evidence is screaming in your face.

[Globalgunner]

The other thing i notice about us is that our defending has always been suspect. Ever since the halcyon days of Dojorou and Senderos. 2 defenders that had the fingerprint of Wenger all over them. If you notice these 2 twerps in action, they are always panicky in the box. Most of their interceptions are haphazard, heading the ball to the opposition or putting teammates under pressure. They are of the mind that once they have made an intervention, they have absolved themselves of culpability, not minding that their very actions have only increased the pressure not diminished or erased it. The last good pairing we had was Sol and Toure. Defenders from other teams are taught to clear the ball either to a teammate of as far outside the box as possible.
I really do not understand what we train at as we rarely look assured in defence. Gabriel has definitely gone backward since joining us and we have absolutely destroyed Chambers. I hope he stays away for at least 2 seasons to get proper instruction in defending away from Le Clown. Holding seems to have a lot going for him but Wenger has erased greater talent than his before. Kos our best defender by far. It would be a shame if 2 FA cups are all he gets from a decent career. As far as our full backs are concerned, I think we need 3 new ones to add to Bellerin. The others are either, poor injured or getting way past it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

All goals conceded are down to individual errors. Especially for us when we concede from corners and set pieces. The tactical set up plays it part because we played a system that makes it difficult to break teams down that sit deep. You can't play it through the middle with Giroud. The longer we go without scoring a goal, the more vulnerable we are to being sucker punched because tiredness and lapses in concentration.

Pulis will always set up a stubborn team but our best result against his side came at the end of the 2014/15 season where Theo scored a hat trick. They sat deep and in numbers but worm to bits and we won 4-1. City beating them 4-0 recently is another example of what happens with a quick nimble striker can do to them. It makes no sense playing that way with Giroud against teams that park the bus.

Need to rewatch that Liverpool game but they scored two goals in the first half and conceded late on towards the end of the game. That suggests a different sort of game compared to ours.

Not necessarily true, you could argue that Arsenal might concede more from corners because of our insistence on zonal marking, and we are more vulnerable to the counter attack because of how we push up within a certain system.

[Power n Glory]

Not necessarily true, you could argue that Arsenal might concede more from corners because of our insistence on zonal marking, and we are more vulnerable to the counter attack because of how we push up within a certain system.

It still boils down to individual errors no matter how you slice it. But as said, the tactics and instructions also play a part in the mistakes made.

There have been games where we've been able to defend high up the pitch because everyone is on their A game. It's when someone is caught napping or misses a challenge that we find oursleves in trouble. Still an individual mistake.

[Power n Glory]

That's true, but only if you include the manager in the calculation. The stupid way in which we are set up to allow space on the flanks begs for pressure to be put on defenders and that extra pressure can contribute to individual mistakes. If a player just can't get to the ball quickly enough because the distance is ridiculous then perhaps it is the player's fault for being too slow but certainly it is the manager's fault for setting up the system to allow such space and then buying and selecting players that have insufficient pace to play such a cavalier and, frankly, lunatic defensive system. Wenger really is a fucking idiot. It's not just big-mouthed fans making armchair assumptions (which is normally the case when fans spout off). We have the genuine article here. A bone-fide idiot in charge of a football club. I know some fans still find that impossible to believe, but look at the evidence. The evidence is screaming in your face.

As just saying to Herb, they all play a part. Some stuff is just trial and error and weighing up the strengths and weakness of individual players. The problem with our manager is that even after trying a system and seeing it fail with certain individuals on numerous occasions, he'll still keep trying it and won't correct it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It still boils down to individual errors no matter how you slice it. But as said, the tactics and instructions also play a part in the mistakes made.

There have been games where we've been able to defend high up the pitch because everyone is on their A game. It's when someone is caught napping or misses a challenge that we find oursleves in trouble. Still an individual mistake.

No it can leave you susceptible to individual errors, what happened with Cech is not something you can account for

If you push high up the pitch for instance you are running the risk of a player mistiming a challenge or being too tired to close down/track back quick enough.

In this case it was a regulation corner which the keeper spilled, so our setup would have had no bearing on it whatsoever where as in numerous other examples it can and does.

[Power n Glory]

No it can leave you susceptible to individual errors, what happened with Cech is not something you can account for

If you push high up the pitch for instance you are running the risk of a player mistiming a challenge or being too tired to close down/track back quick enough.

In this case it was a regulation corner which the keeper spilled, so our setup would have had no bearing on it whatsoever where as in numerous other examples it can and does.


You're still describing individual error, Herb. If you read closely you'll see I'm not dismissing how tactics play a part either.

[Niall_Quinn]

You're still describing individual error, Herb. If you read closely you'll see I'm not dismissing how tactics play a part either.

No, I don't think you are dismissing the tactics. Just wanted to make sure that the person who makes the most individual errors and also the most serious ones gets due credit -- Wenger.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You're still describing individual error, Herb. If you read closely you'll see I'm not dismissing how tactics play a part either.

Sigh that was my point, my point was that there are individual errors caused by tactical shortcomings

And then there was Cech which was just a total balls up on his part and no tactical refinery would have prevented it

[Power n Glory]

No, I don't think you are dismissing the tactics. Just wanted to make sure that the person who makes the most individual errors and also the most serious ones gets due credit -- Wenger.

You already know my thoughts on Wenger. But not all the goals we give away, games we lose and chances missed are tactical failings. When players fail to do the basics like we've seen over recent games, we lose points.

When players aren't fighting to win the ball back, contest the headers, not tracking back, not marking or closing down quick enough, getting beat on the near post, you have to take a look at the player first and ask questions. Is it tiredness, a lapse in concentration, bad form, etc. We've seen how a players perfomance can fall off a cliff during a match. There isn't much Wenger can do about that. But what he can do is make a sub if particular players are struggling or tired, bench them for a game or two if their form is off or have a serious word with them in training and getting them working on their weak areas. Studying videos of where they go wrong and what they should have done. But he does nothing and that's why he has to go. Nothing during the game or after.

Stories like the below, Bellerin telling the press Ozil doesn't train that hard, which coincides with Wenger telling the press around this time last year that he gives Ozil a lot of time off, they worry me.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/12/26/hector-bellerin-admits-mesut-ozil-is-the-worst-trainer-at-arsenal-6345242/

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/10116568/arsene-wenger-says-mesut-ozil-hardly-trains-between-games

That shouldn't be acceptable and you only have to listen to what Henry and RVP say of how Bergkamp trained to see how that inspired them as professionals. The manager gets so much wrong in all areas of our game, it goes beyond him being a poor tactician. He flat out makes bad decisions. You have to wonder what the camp is like off the pitch. Are other key players allowed to not train that often because we're worried about injuries and fitness? How does that effect the relationship between the players if they all don't have to train hard? Surely that has to disrupt the harmony and team spirit he often talks of and tries to build open? It's got to be more disruptive than unequal wages, right? But this all comes down to poor management. When we see so much confusion when it comes to how we press team, the above may explain it. It explains why the old man isn't up off his seat and demanding players work harder.

[Goonermerree]

I'm sure I remember Clichy saying that they trained harder at City.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think it's a question of a or b, I agree with you that the players need to take responsibility for their lukewarm performances but that doesn't mean the manager should not.

As you've suggested yourself, Ozil doesn't train that hard and the manager gives him loads of time off. Now Ozil should be training harder especially with what we've paid for him and what he earns but who is making him train harder, why is he getting the time off?. If he's not being managed properly there is no incentive to up his performances if he gets in the team come what may.

We know from players who have been managed by Wenger that he isn't someone who will rock the boat, won't go into a match with a game plan and probably won't give his players stick when they are not performing and yet all of them speak highly of him precisely because they know they get an easy ride.

I don't think these players respect the manager and Wenger is not assertive enough to command that respect, he has benefited in the past from having natural leaders in the team but I think he doesn't like having leaders in the side because he doesn't want his methods or approach questioned because he doesn't have the strength of character to put up with his managerial ability being placed under scrutiny. If the press does it he accuses them of being disrespectful

[Power n Glory]

I'm sure I remember Clichy saying that they trained harder at City.

I'm not surprised. I always remember Cesc's comments about training with Spain and Barca compared to Arsenal. We get enough hints about the atmosphere when the players keep referring to having fun and enjoying their football whilst Wenger will always herald displays of patience and composure from our players but at the same time bemoan the lack of urgency and sharpness when things go wrong.

[Goonermerree]

I'm not surprised. I always remember Cesc's comments about training with Spain and Barca compared to Arsenal. We get enough hints about the atmosphere when the players keep referring to having fun and enjoying their football whilst Wenger will always herald displays of patience and composure from our players but at the same time bemoan the lack of urgency and sharpness when things go wrong.

Probably why they're always tired, they're not fit enough!

[Power n Glory]

]I don't think it's a question of a or b, I agree with you that the players need to take responsibility for their lukewarm performances but that doesn't mean the manager should not.[/B]

As you've suggested yourself, Ozil doesn't train that hard and the manager gives him loads of time off. Now Ozil should be training harder especially with what we've paid for him and what he earns but who is making him train harder, why is he getting the time off?. If he's not being managed properly there is no incentive to up his performances if he gets in the team come what may.

We know from players who have been managed by Wenger that he isn't someone who will rock the boat, won't go into a match with a game plan and probably won't give his players stick when they are not performing and yet all of them speak highly of him precisely because they know they get an easy ride.

I don't think these players respect the manager and Wenger is not assertive enough to command that respect, he has benefited in the past from having natural leaders in the team but I think he doesn't like having leaders in the side because he doesn't want his methods or approach questioned because he doesn't have the strength of character to put up with his managerial ability being placed under scrutiny. If the press does it he accuses them of being disrespectful

Seriously, what are you reading? I'm not suggesting it's an A or B type situation or suggesting the manager shouldn't take responsibility.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Seriously, what are you reading? I'm not suggesting it's an A or B type situation or suggesting the manager shouldn't take responsibility.

All i'm saying is there's an argument to be made that even when the players aren't pulling their weight it's ultimately just as much the manager's fault

If you agree with that, than it's all cool in the gang.

[Power n Glory]

All i'm saying is there's an argument to be made that even when the players aren't pulling their weight it's ultimately just as much the manager's fault

If you agree with that, than it's all cool in the gang.



An argument to be made? Again, what are you reading in my post that suggests otherwise?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

An argument to be made? Again, what are you reading in my post that suggests otherwise?


"When players aren't fighting to win the ball back, contest the headers, not tracking back, not marking or closing down quick enough, getting beat on the near post, you have to take a look at the player first and ask questions. Is it tiredness, a lapse in concentration, bad form, etc. We've seen how a players perfomance can fall off a cliff during a match. There isn't much Wenger can do about that"

I took from this that the players and only the players were responsible for this, if that's not the case than fair enough. But responding like a little girl whose had the hair on her favourite my little pony shaved off doesn't help you much either.

[Power n Glory]

"When players aren't fighting to win the ball back, contest the headers, not tracking back, not marking or closing down quick enough, getting beat on the near post, you have to take a look at the player first and ask questions. Is it tiredness, a lapse in concentration, bad form, etc. We've seen how a players perfomance can fall off a cliff during a match. There isn't much Wenger can do about that"

I took from this that the players and only the players were responsible for this, if that's not the case than fair enough. But responding like a little girl whose had the hair on her favourite my little pony shaved off doesn't help you much either.

Followed by...


When players aren't fighting to win the ball back, contest the headers, not tracking back, not marking or closing down quick enough, getting beat on the near post, you have to take a look at the player first and ask questions. Is it tiredness, a lapse in concentration, bad form, etc. We've seen how a players perfomance can fall off a cliff during a match. There isn't much Wenger can do about that. But what he can do is make a sub if particular players are struggling or tired, bench them for a game or two if their form is off or have a serious word with them in training and getting them working on their weak areas. Studying videos of where they go wrong and what they should have done. But he does nothing and that's why he has to go. Nothing during the game or after.

And


The manager gets so much wrong in all areas of our game, it goes beyond him being a poor tactician. He flat out makes bad decisions. You have to wonder what the camp is like off the pitch. Are other key players allowed to not train that often because we're worried about injuries and fitness? How does that effect the relationship between the players if they all don't have to train hard? Surely that has to disrupt the harmony and team spirit he often talks of and tries to build open? It's got to be more disruptive than unequal wages, right? But this all comes down to poor management. When we see so much confusion when it comes to how we press team, the above may explain it. It explains why the old man isn't up off his seat and demanding players work harder.

It would help if you could read the whole post before responding otherwise don't bother. You're not an idiot and I can only assume it's a slow day at work and you're on the WUM.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Followed by...


And



It would help if you could read the whole post before responding otherwise don't bother. You're not an idiot and I can only assume it's a slow day at work and you're on the WUM.

The last post was a windup for sure but that's only because you were getting on your high horse again

Wenger has been a manager for over thirty years, he should be adept at identifying fatigue and other things in his players without even needing to be wise after the event with studying videos etc

So it's more than that he has done nothing to remedy it, he is responsible for it happening in the first place (as much as the players are)

[Power n Glory]

You're being contrary for the sake of it and it's a huge waste of time going any further unless you grow up.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You're being contrary for the sake of it and it's a huge waste of time going any further unless you grow up.

No i genuinely took your argument to suggest that players first and foremost take responsibility for their performances, and you've stated that wasn't the case

Now you can tell me i've misinterpreted your argument which obviously appears to be the case, but the rest of the histrionics are unnecessary. It seems a bit daft to ask me where in what you'd written i'd extrapolated the view i assumed you to be taking and then accuse me of being contrary when i point out where i took it from.

You can say i was wrong to interpret it like that, but it seems a bit odd for you to try and assume my motivations. Very odd in fact