Match Reaction vs PNE (away, Cup).

[McNamara That Ghost...]

:lol:

Good first half guys, at least we're showing consistency.

Well done to Ramsey for somehow shooting on target and Bif for saving us again.

[Niall_Quinn]

I was surprised by Preston's commitment. I hadn't really considered they'd be up for a cup game against Arsenal.

[Marc Overmars]

Yay

[Goonermerree]

We're in the hat! Feel a bit for Preston, but they didn't put their chances away first half and we were better second half.

[topgun]

We showed em,didn't we.

[RomfordPele]

Another flukey rescue job. Wenger has got to be the luckiest manager in world football.

Today shows We have massive, massive problems at the back.

Gabriel is very much in the squillaci, silvestre and stepanovs tradition of absolute shite centre backs.

Without koscielny, mustafi doesn't look much better.

In front of them, Xhaka looks like a complete misfit signing and without coquelin we have no instinctive ball winner in midfield to protect them.

Maitland-niles was horribly exposed all match and shows that we are one injury to bellerin away from meltdown.

Monreal looks a bit cooked too.

All of this could be addressed in the transfer window, but I won't hold my breath.

[Power n Glory]

NQ, explain to me how this goal involved more pace and less 'tippy tappy'?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wbOs4Ukdwc

From the build up, we were fortunate not to concede possession when Xhaka took a heavy touch and in the final third it was good work from Iwobi to keep the attack alive.

[Niall_Quinn]

NQ, explain to me how this goal involved more pace and less 'tippy tappy'?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wbOs4Ukdwc

From the build up, we were fortunate not to concede possession when Xhaka took a heavy touch and in the final third it was good work from Iwobi to keep the attack alive.

You really need that explained? And you also keep using the word pace when I already said I meant tempo.

So this video is a CLASSIC cameo of the problem. A whole bunch of aimless shite, our usual style, and then bang, bang, two passes up the flank, a ball into the danger area and Iwobi does the rest. You call that shite at the start, "build up play", I call it shite. The real build up play was when somebody had the balls to move the ball forward rather than sideways or backwards. Yes, you can lose the ball if you play it into contested spaces. And that's what Wenger fears because he hasn't got a clue how to coach the defence so loss of possession can be devastating. But you also can't threaten the opposition if you shun their goal. And that's what we do for long stretches of our matches - basically fuck around, terrified of losing the ball. Tippy tappy Arsenal style, or more like chicken's tikka - the Mr Bean version of tika taka.

[Niall_Quinn]

Another flukey rescue job. Wenger has got to be the luckiest manager in world football.

Today shows We have massive, massive problems at the back.

Gabriel is very much in the squillaci, silvestre and stepanovs tradition of absolute shite centre backs.

Without koscielny, mustafi doesn't look much better.

In front of them, Xhaka looks like a complete misfit signing and without coquelin we have no instinctive ball winner in midfield to protect them.

Maitland-niles was horribly exposed all match and shows that we are one injury to bellerin away from meltdown.

Monreal looks a bit cooked too.

All of this could be addressed in the transfer window, but I won't hold my breath.

We bought a non-league player for 40k - didn't you get the memo?

[RomfordPele]

Another flukey rescue job. Wenger has got to be the luckiest manager in world football.

Today shows We have massive, massive problems at the back.

Gabriel is very much in the squillaci, silvestre and stepanovs tradition of absolute shite centre backs.

Without koscielny, mustafi doesn't look much better.

In front of them, Xhaka looks like a complete misfit signing and without coquelin we have no instinctive ball winner in midfield to protect them.

Maitland-niles was horribly exposed all match and shows that we are one injury to bellerin away from meltdown.

Monreal looks a bit cooked too.

All of this could be addressed in the transfer window, but I won't hold my breath.


We bought a non-league player for 40k - didn't you get the memo?

The hednesford maldini. Great work arsene.

[AFC Leveller]

I'm starting to think that 35 m we spent on Xhaka could have been spent on a much better dcm... Kante for exapmle.

Don't get me wrong Xhaka on the ball is very easy on the eye but off it he is a liability and very clumsy.

[Power n Glory]

You really need that explained? And you also keep using the word pace when I already said I meant tempo.

So this video is a CLASSIC cameo of the problem. A whole bunch of aimless shite, our usual style, and then bang, bang, two passes up the flank, a ball into the danger area and Iwobi does the rest. You call that shite at the start, "build up play", I call it shite. The real build up play was when somebody had the balls to move the ball forward rather than sideways or backwards. Yes, you can lose the ball if you play it into contested spaces. And that's what Wenger fears because he hasn't got a clue how to coach the defence so loss of possession can be devastating. But you also can't threaten the opposition if you shun their goal. And that's what we do for long stretches of our matches - basically fuck around, terrified of losing the ball. Tippy tappy Arsenal style, or more like chicken's tikka - the Mr Bean version of tika taka.

Pace...tempo...it makes no difference. The tempo wasn't much different in how we started the first half.

And no, it wasn't Iwobi doing all the rest. Monreal's cross from the wing was headed out. We were fortunate that it fell to Perez who passed to Iwobi (sideways) and Iwobi's touch and control was good enough to hold off the defenders and then find Ramsey. Another sideways pass. If either of the sideways passes are unsuccessful or Iwobi loses gets bundled off the poor, you'd be complaining about the 'tippy tappy' sideways passing. It's all marginal. What made that goal was quality control, vision and passing with a bit of fortune.

[Power n Glory]

I'm starting to think that 35 m we spent on Xhaka could have been spent on a much better dcm... Kante for exapmle.

Don't get me wrong Xhaka on the ball is very easy on the eye but off it he is a liability and very clumsy.

Xhaka was a waste of money. Mastermind saying this guy would help liberate the other midfielders to go forward....not a chance. He needs to sharpen his game up. He was allowed to collect the ball from the defenders as per usual and looked clumsy. Could have cost us a goal and the opening minutes of both halves.

[Goonermerree]

NQ, explain to me how this goal involved more pace and less 'tippy tappy'?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wbOs4Ukdwc

From the build up, we were fortunate not to concede possession when Xhaka took a heavy touch and in the final third it was good work from Iwobi to keep the attack alive.

You've picked the exception to the point. I would point out, however, that it took us 40 seconds from kick off to get out of our own half, and that type of play is what we usually have to endure.

[Power n Glory]

You've picked the exception to the point. I would point out, however, that it took us 40 seconds from kick off to get out of our own half, and that type of play is what we usually have to endure.

But that's what I mean. In those first 40 seconds or the first phase of play we often struggle to play the ball out but only when it results in a goal will NQ say something like 'we stopped playing tippy tappy' or 'changed our approach'. I haven't picked out the exception. The two passes that he refers to that got us out of our half and into the final third are often the two passes that result in a ball being miscontrolled or a bad pass that surrenders possession.

Heck, the cross from Monreal was cleared!

[Goonermerree]

But that's what I mean. In those first 40 seconds or the first phase of play we often struggle to play the ball out but only when it results in a goal will NQ say something like 'we stopped playing tippy tappy' or 'changed our approach'. I haven't picked out the exception. The two passes that he refers to that got us out of our half and into the final third are often the two passes that result in a ball being miscontrolled or a bad pass that surrenders possession.

Are you saying that we play crap tippy tappy all the time and it's a fluke when we score?

[Power n Glory]

Are you saying that we play crap tippy tappy all the time and it's a fluke when we score?

We need to stop using this tippy tappy term. Our Plan A has always been a short passing game and that's how we scored that goal. A short pass to Iwobi from Perez and a short pass from Iwobi to Ramsey. We always try to open teams up and create those little pockets of space. We saw that with that wonderful goal Perez scored in our last game. I'm not saying it's a fluke, it's about quality. Certainly for this game. We weren't playing a great team. There are times where Plan A won't work and it starts to look slow and labored against teams sitting deep. That wasn't the case for this game. There was a serious problem with the quality and effort in this game. Not the tactics.

[Goonermerree]

We need to stop using this tippy tappy term. Our Plan A has always been a short passing game and that's how we scored that goal. A short pass to Iwobi from Perez and a short pass from Iwobi to Ramsey. We always try to open teams up and create those little pockets of space. We saw that with that wonderful goal Perez scored in our last game. I'm not saying it's a fluke, it's about quality. Certainly for this game. We weren't playing a great team. There are times where Plan A won't work and it starts to look slow and labored against teams sitting deep. That wasn't the case for this game. There was a serious problem with the quality and effort in this game. Not the tactics.

If short passes are quick and decisive, I would agree with you, but we have a slow build up, or tippy tappy which allows defences to get back and have a cup of tea waiting for us to get to their box. When we get there, a lot of the time we don't know what to do. Defences then get into a comfort zone and are not troubled. They then get more confidence and score on the counter. We are predictable. Today we were just awful in the first half, we just couldn't cope with Preston's commitment and pressing. They were unlucky not to be three up at half time.

[Niall_Quinn]

Pace...tempo...it makes no difference. The tempo wasn't much different in how we started the first half.

And no, it wasn't Iwobi doing all the rest. Monreal's cross from the wing was headed out. We were fortunate that it fell to Perez who passed to Iwobi (sideways) and Iwobi's touch and control was good enough to hold off the defenders and then find Ramsey. Another sideways pass. If either of the sideways passes are unsuccessful or Iwobi loses gets bundled off the poor, you'd be complaining about the 'tippy tappy' sideways passing. It's all marginal. What made that goal was quality control, vision and passing with a bit of fortune.

No - ONE sideways pass in an ATTACKING move is not TIPPY TAPPY (a perfect term for the non-football we inflict). A whole series of inane passes designed merely to keep possession and with no other purpose, that's Wengerball of the last decade. The precise opposite of Wengerball from the decade before. Why he made this obnoxious and atrocious switch only he can explain.

But if you are going to say no, we made 5 forward passes in a game so it's not tippy tappy, or no, we made 3 sideways passes so it's not attacking the of course, you win the argument through rigid usage of absolutes. However, I'm sure no Arsenal fan, except perhaps Ty or Chris Wenger, would have any trouble identifying the type of football I'm describing. And of course tempo makes all the difference. In the matches where we've sat up and been deluded into believing the old Arsenal is on the way back, high temp, forward momentum, precision passing. I think in "all" of these games (there are about five I guess, over the last few years) we had less possession than the opposition. In the vast majority of games where we've been dogshit (as in 99.5%), low tempo (to the point of fans wondering if the players give a shit), negative, fearful, loss of composure, crappy passing - cowardball. We get 70% and have 2 shots on target. Rarely anything in between.

[Niall_Quinn]

But that's what I mean. In those first 40 seconds or the first phase of play we often struggle to play the ball out but only when it results in a goal will NQ say something like 'we stopped playing tippy tappy' or 'changed our approach'. I haven't picked out the exception. The two passes that he refers to that got us out of our half and into the final third are often the two passes that result in a ball being miscontrolled or a bad pass that surrenders possession.

Heck, the cross from Monreal was cleared!

Who cares if we surrender possession? What of it? That's exactly what I mean - the players are fucking terrified of trying anything in case the cough the ball up. Wenger is an absolute nutter. I bet he wanks over those 70% possession stats. Fuck possession, we always do better with less of it. And if you don't make those 2 passes, whether you lose the ball or not, then you don't get near the opponents goal and you don't stretch their defenders. Tapping it around in front of them all day long must be what every defender in the league prays for before they face us. Will it be the Arsenal that actually has the ability to make a game of it (because we've seen it happen), or that comical bunch of pansies who tap the ball around all day long and never lay a glove? You have to make those forward passes and you have to get players up the pitch and facing goal, instead of that all too familiar sight of our players receiving the ball with their backs to the goal.

[Niall_Quinn]

We need to stop using this tippy tappy term. Our Plan A has always been a short passing game and that's how we scored that goal. A short pass to Iwobi from Perez and a short pass from Iwobi to Ramsey. We always try to open teams up and create those little pockets of space. We saw that with that wonderful goal Perez scored in our last game. I'm not saying it's a fluke, it's about quality. Certainly for this game. We weren't playing a great team. There are times where Plan A won't work and it starts to look slow and labored against teams sitting deep. That wasn't the case for this game. There was a serious problem with the quality and effort in this game. Not the tactics.

So why bother with bullshit like that when a lower league team like Preston do it twice as well as we do using simple, traditional football that we've seen in this league for decades? Push the ball and go, get men in the box, get your cross in. Why do we have players like Ox and Theo and Giroud and why the hell do we start them if we persist with this tippy tappy (Perfect term for it) bore ball? Yes, I suppose you can disguise it by saying it's a short passing game. But we all know the sort of shit I'm talking about.

[Power n Glory]

If short passes are quick and decisive, I would agree with you, but we have a slow build up, or tippy tappy which allows defences to get back and have a cup of tea waiting for us to get to their box. When we get there, a lot of the time we don't know what to do. Defences then get into a comfort zone and are not troubled. They then get more confidence and score on the counter. We are predictable. Today we were just awful in the first half, we just couldn't cope with Preston's commitment and pressing. They were unlucky not to be three up at half time.

I agree with you on passes needing to be quick and decisive to be at our best. We're a million miles away from the football we used to play with Cesc, Rosicky and RVP. Best I've seen us play this season was the Basel game. But it's still 'tippy tappy' as some call it. Difference is the speed at which we play.

But for this particular game and many others like it, we struggled at kick off to find our rhythm. Either the attitude of the players was wrong or they're not good enough technically to play this way. The way Xhaka almost lost the ball from kick off isn't something you can blame on tactics. We often see these sort of mistakes from our build up that stops our rhythm. Too often I see people blame the tactics for unforced errors. That's not me dismissing how predictable we can be but for this particular game and few others like it, we were just piss poor technically.

The goal we scored wasn't even a case of us passing the ball quick enough to avoid facing a packed defence. The build up was slow and Iwobi was surrounded by players when he had to play in Ramsey.

But I agree with you on many of the points. It's more so me continuing a debate with NQ. It annoys me that everything negative with our play is classed as tippy tappy but when we score and play well, all of a sudden we've stopped playing tippy tappy. We need to stop using that term on here. It's just lazy.

[Power n Glory]

So why bother with bullshit like that when a lower league team like Preston do it twice as well as we do using simple, traditional football that we've seen in this league for decades? Push the ball and go, get men in the box, get your cross in. Why do we have players like Ox and Theo and Giroud and why the hell do we start them if we persist with this tippy tappy (Perfect term for it) bore ball? Yes, I suppose you can disguise it by saying it's a short passing game. But we all know the sort of shit I'm talking about.

Yeah, just stick it in the back of the net. ;)

Alright Ian Wright.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah, just stick it in the back of the net. ;)

Alright Ian Wright.

No, it's a perfectly valid question. How come Preston North End can play effective football without all the pissing around? But we can't?

Although we can, can't we, because we've seen the lads play excellent football when (for whatever reason) they have been let off the leash.

Wenger out solves everything. He has to go. It is way, way, way past time now.

[Power n Glory]

It's a terrible question. Preston lost the game because they missed some real good 1st half chances.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's a terrible question. Preston lost the game because they missed some real good 1st half chances.

It's a terrible question if you completely change the context, as you have done here. We weren't talking about who won or lost. We were talking about the type of football played by Preston compared to the (alleged) football we play. Why you are trying to avoid acknowledging what the whole world can see, I don't know.

[Power n Glory]

It's a terrible question if you completely change the context, as you have done here. We weren't talking about who won or lost. We were talking about the type of football played by Preston compared to the (alleged) football we play. Why you are trying to avoid acknowledging what the whole world can see, I don't know.

So you want to swap the style of play we have now for a midtable championship team that we beat? Nothing out of context, it's just a silly question.

[Niall_Quinn]

So you want to swap the style of play we have now for a midtable championship team that we beat? Nothing out of context, it's just a silly question.

Anything to avoid focusing on the issue. I said I wanted to change our style of play to be more direct and higher tempo because we've seen what our own team can do when we play with ambition. As it is, indeed, Preston were much the better team with much the better style and they were extremely unfortunate to come out empty handed. It wasn't their style of football that cost them in the end, yet again Wenger was unprepared and outclassed. Fortunately for Wenger he has a lot more money than his counterpart at Preston and so we have better talent in the team and, as is usually the case, it was individual players who dragged a result from this latest shit show.

Wenger is giving us absolutely nothing. He's a giant stone around the neck of every player. His shitty ideas about football are not only the most boring on the planet but they are also robbing the players and the fans of the possibilities that are available to this squad, given an even semiconscious manager at the helm. Yer after year of wasted potential and the ongoing embarrassment of enduring games where teams like Preston play us off the pitch. The fact Wenger is still here is probably the second greatest scandal in football, after the abuse scandal. But keep on explaining how what we are seeing is somehow rational. It doesn't change the facts. A decade of nothingness and the fucker is going to get a new contract so he can keep on, like a catatonic vegetable, automatically repeating the same madness season after season in the expectation it will all suddenly fall into place. It's pure craziness. There is no system here, no logic. It's just mindless, moronic, bloody minded nonsense and to describe it any other way and, worse, to try and assign some sort of credibility to it is way beyond optimistic.

[Power n Glory]

Anything to avoid focusing on the issue. I said I wanted to change our style of play to be more direct and higher tempo because we've seen what our own team can do when we play with ambition. As it is, indeed, Preston were much the better team with much the better style and they were extremely unfortunate to come out empty handed. It wasn't their style of football that cost them in the end, yet again Wenger was unprepared and outclassed. Fortunately for Wenger he has a lot more money than his counterpart at Preston and so we have better talent in the team and, as is usually the case, it was individual players who dragged a result from this latest shit show.

Wenger is giving us absolutely nothing. He's a giant stone around the neck of every player. His shitty ideas about football are not only the most boring on the planet but they are also robbing the players and the fans of the possibilities that are available to this squad, given an even semiconscious manager at the helm. Yer after year of wasted potential and the ongoing embarrassment of enduring games where teams like Preston play us off the pitch. The fact Wenger is still here is probably the second greatest scandal in football, after the abuse scandal. But keep on explaining how what we are seeing is somehow rational. It doesn't change the facts. A decade of nothingness and the fucker is going to get a new contract so he can keep on, like a catatonic vegetable, automatically repeating the same madness season after season in the expectation it will all suddenly fall into place. It's pure craziness. There is no system here, no logic. It's just mindless, moronic, bloody minded nonsense and to describe it any other way and, worse, to try and assign some sort of credibility to it is way beyond optimistic.

:lol: Spare me. 4/5 seasons ago when I kept saying Wenger has to go and even if he had money to spend he'd still choke, you'd constantly deflect attention away from the manager and his tactics to talk about Gazidis and Ivan. You've got no business lecturing me when it comes to focusing on the issues.

I don't see much point in going over this issue again. I've always said Wenger wasn't a great tactician but there are certain mistakes made that I can't blame on tactics. You've seen the video. We kick off for the second half and within seconds Xhaka takes a heavy touch and almost loses possession which would have resulted in a dangerous counter attack. He almost cost us a goal in the opening minutes of the first half as well. How can a heavy touch from a supposed top class player be blamed on the tactics? The sort of errors we're seeing come down to mental preparation or fatigue. The attitude of the players isn't right. These are unforced errors. Sloppiness. The players have to take some responsibility for their shit performances. They're all experienced enough to know better. I'll put more of the blame on Wenger if we see the same sloppy attitude from this lot and he doesn't correct it.

[Niall_Quinn]

:lol: Spare me. 4/5 seasons ago when I kept saying Wenger has to go and even if he had money to spend he'd still choke, you'd constantly deflect attention away from the manager and his tactics to talk about Gazidis and Ivan. You've got no business lecturing me when it comes to focusing on the issues.

I don't see much point in going over this issue again. I've always said Wenger wasn't a great tactician but there are certain mistakes made that I can't blame on tactics. You've seen the video. We kick off for the second half and within seconds Xhaka takes a heavy touch and almost loses possession which would have resulted in a dangerous counter attack. He almost cost us a goal in the opening minutes of the first half as well. How can a heavy touch from a supposed top class player be blamed on the tactics? The sort of errors we're seeing come down to mental preparation or fatigue. The attitude of the players isn't right. These are unforced errors. Sloppiness. The players have to take some responsibility for their shit performances. They're all experienced enough to know better. I'll put more of the blame on Wenger if we see the same sloppy attitude from this lot and he doesn't correct it.

How far away from the original topic are you now? Nobody has said the players shouldn't take responsibility. Nobody has said they don't make sloppy, shitty errors - on the contrary, we see them every week. The point was, is Wenger's football shit. After a decade, the self evident answer is yes and it has fuck all to do with the players. The players are a problem of a different kind, but it is Wenger and Wenger alone who has dreamed up the nightmarish system we play. It's his boring shitter-patter we've been putting up with for years. That's what the discussion was about. Why we play that sort of shit so much when we could utilise these players in a much more positive manner.

[Power n Glory]

How far away from the original topic are you now? Nobody has said the players shouldn't take responsibility. Nobody has said they don't make sloppy, shitty errors - on the contrary, we see them every week. The point was, is Wenger's football shit. After a decade, the self evident answer is yes and it has fuck all to do with the players. The players are a problem of a different kind, but it is Wenger and Wenger alone who has dreamed up the nightmarish system we play. It's his boring shitter-patter we've been putting up with for years. That's what the discussion was about. Why we play that sort of shit so much when we could utilise these players in a much more positive manner.

If you can't connect the dots it's a pointless discussion. The topic is on the game we just played. My argument is that there was something seriously wrong with the performance of the players more than the actual tactics for that game. We're still a tactically flawed team but the performances from certain players is below par. That's what hurt us most in the 1st half. 2nd half we didn't shift tactics from what I saw, we just upped our performance. To me, it sounds like you can't tell the difference between a player performing poorly compared to a player exposed by bad tactics. I'm no expert, but when players like Xhaka are taking heavy touches, has moments of lapsed concentration, can't make a simple pass....Ox failing to dribble past his man, Ramsey doing the usual Hollywood passes but failing....that says more about the players form and ability over tactics. Some of the stuff is very basic and we're not asking these guys to do something alien to their natural game.

Yes, tactically Wenger is pretty shit. Who is arguing against that? But before we can get to playing those flawed tactics the players have to at least play up to par. Getting basic passes and touches wrong is unacceptable.

[Niall_Quinn]

If you can't connect the dots it's a pointless discussion. The topic is on the game we just played. My argument is that there was something seriously wrong with the performance of the players more than the actual tactics for that game. We're still a tactically flawed team but the performances from certain players is below par. That's what hurt us most in the 1st half. 2nd half we didn't shift tactics from what I saw, we just upped our performance. To me, it sounds like you can't tell the difference between a player performing poorly compared to a player exposed by bad tactics. I'm no expert, but when players like Xhaka are taking heavy touches, has moments of lapsed concentration, can't make a simple pass....Ox failing to dribble past his man, Ramsey doing the usual Hollywood passes but failing....that says more about the players form and ability over tactics. Some of the stuff is very basic and we're not asking these guys to do something alien to their natural game.

Yes, tactically Wenger is pretty shit. Who is arguing against that? But before we can get to playing those flawed tactics the players have to at least play up to par. Getting basic passes and touches wrong is unacceptable.

The topic was the difference between that shitty, aimless game we play and a direct approach that ups the tempo and moves the ball towards the opponents goal. The fact we even have to speak about it says everything about Wenger, regardless of the players. Every other team in football gets the obvious idea that moving the ball towards the opponents goal increases the chance of scoring a goal. This concept seems to have escaped Wenger though, or at least he's unlearned everything he brought to the club in his first few seasons.

But anyway, now that we've changed the topic, of course these lazy, underperforming players need to be called out for their lack of application. But that only leads to another Wenger debate. We've bee seeing careless, sloppy passing for several seasons now. Lousy first touches from supposedly technically gifted players. Hopeless blind passes straight to the opposition. Diabolical crossing. Stupid flicks and tricks that concede possession when, ironically, a simple pass would have kept the ball. Players who can't seem to handle the slightest amount of pressure when they are on the ball (bar the notable exceptions). All of these flaws have been evident in the team for years. Of course it is the players' faults they can't or won't get their shit together. But sitting on top of this mess is Wenger. If he's tried to do something about this, if he's modified the training, if he's reacted in any way then it's pretty damn obvious he's failed and is continuing to fail.

I believe that is you create an atmosphere of complacency and a lack of ambition at the top then it will quickly filter down through the entire organisation. And that's what we see in the players, the same complacency the whole club is soaked in. And we hear the same shit too, over and over again. Excuses, excuses, promises, promises. And yet the outcome is always the same. In the end you have a board and a manager that has watched all this for season after season. Perhaps it irritates them as much as the fans but I sincerely doubt that. Because if it did bother them they'd be moving heaven and hell and expending the necessary resources to fix the problems. But they aren't. Instead they all watch this Wenger project drone on. #90mill spent this summer to get worse. It's as we all feared, give the manager the money and it'll make no difference. Change the players and it makes no difference. Bring in super stars and they can't make a difference either, no matter how much they bust a gut in some cases. Same outcome.

That's because the same lousy attitude and general incompetence that characterises almost every moment of Wenger's latter reign has rotted this club to its core. Rightly blame the players for being part of it. That's fair enough. But go ahead and change them all and you'll get the same result.

[Power n Glory]

The topic was the difference between that shitty, aimless game we play and a direct approach that ups the tempo and moves the ball towards the opponents goal. The fact we even have to speak about it says everything about Wenger, regardless of the players. Every other team in football gets the obvious idea that moving the ball towards the opponents goal increases the chance of scoring a goal. This concept seems to have escaped Wenger though, or at least he's unlearned everything he brought to the club in his first few seasons.

You keep missing this simple point. The difference being the quality of the pass and first touch. You can't play at a higher tempo if players keep fucking up their first touch or misplace their pass.

[Niall_Quinn]

You keep missing this simple point. The difference being the quality of the pass and first touch. You can't play at a higher tempo if players keep fucking up their first touch or misplace their pass.

Except we can play at a higher tempo and we've played our best games and achieved our best results playing that way. If the players are incapable of this then how did we manage to blow the likes of Utd and the chavs away? We've seen these players perform, we've seen them pass the ball directly and with laser precision and we've seen them achieve dominance over teams that we regularly fold to. So the capability is all there. But we see it far too infrequently. Do the players choose to play at a comatose tempo and in such a ponderous, negative fashion? Or is that what they are instructed to do? And if they are not instructed to play this way yet the manager sees such woeful performances on such a regular basis then what the fuck is he doing about it?

It's him, Wenger. Xhaka used to be able to pass a ball before he arrived at this club. For the first few games he could still pass. Now he can't. Chambers looked a bright prospect when he arrived. Now he's history. Gnabry couldn't get a game, now he's tearing it up elsewhere. Jack spent his whole time on the treatment table here, now he gets games elsewhere. If all these things are wrong at this club - and they are - then why should the training and quality control applied to the performances be anything other than fucked up and second rate?

It's him, Wenger.

Of course there were the rumours floating around that the players ignored the manager in at least a couple of those notable games where we performed to a standard the fans have every right to expect from this team. It's hard not to give that idea some credence given the gulf between those performances and what we normally endure.

Yes we can play at high tempo and from what we have glimpsed we are good at it. Theo plays best when his brain can't catch up with the speed of the ball, for example.

[Power n Glory]

Except we can play at a higher tempo and we've played our best games and achieved our best results playing that way. If the players are incapable of this then how did we manage to blow the likes of Utd and the chavs away? We've seen these players perform, we've seen them pass the ball directly and with laser precision and we've seen them achieve dominance over teams that we regularly fold to. So the capability is all there. But we see it far too infrequently. Do the players choose to play at a comatose tempo and in such a ponderous, negative fashion? Or is that what they are instructed to do? And if they are not instructed to play this way yet the manager sees such woeful performances on such a regular basis then what the fuck is he doing about it?

It's him, Wenger. Xhaka used to be able to pass a ball before he arrived at this club. For the first few games he could still pass. Now he can't. Chambers looked a bright prospect when he arrived. Now he's history. Gnabry couldn't get a game, now he's tearing it up elsewhere. Jack spent his whole time on the treatment table here, now he gets games elsewhere. If all these things are wrong at this club - and they are - then why should the training and quality control applied to the performances be anything other than fucked up and second rate?

It's him, Wenger.

Of course there were the rumours floating around that the players ignored the manager in at least a couple of those notable games where we performed to a standard the fans have every right to expect from this team. It's hard not to give that idea some credence given the gulf between those performances and what we normally endure.

Yes we can play at high tempo and from what we have glimpsed we are good at it. Theo plays best when his brain can't catch up with the speed of the ball, for example.

So you think it's a 'tactic' to take heavy touches and misplace passes? :rolleyes: It's pretty wild to attribute faults from an out of form player to a Wenger tactic or instruction. You're taking form and confidence out of the equation.

He doesn't instruct them to pass slower. In post match interviews he'll often say we didn't move the ball quick enough and the usual 'we lacked a bit of sharpness' or 'heavy legs' so that should be enough indication that he hasn't told them to play at a slower pace. I've said this before. It's pretty hard to remain composed, calm but play at a lightening fast pace and Wenger will often to refer to the players needing to be calm and composed when facing a stubborn defence. That's why I think the players can often get stuck in that one tempo phase of just moving the ball slowly. I don't think it's intentional but when we haven't got the confidence to play at a quicker pace because we've had some wayward passes or heavy touches....you get what we saw in the first half. That's my theory on why we're not playing to our full potential.

I can accept if the way we prepare for games mentally and what we do in training has the squad misfiring but that's different to tactics. It's something you keep muddling up.

You also may need to stop listening to the brainless English pundits on MOTD and BT Sports. That lack of footballing brain bollocks and Theo being at his best when not thinking is utter nonsense. The scorpion kick goal Giroud scored came about through pure instinct and just reacting to how the ball arrived. Most strikers react that way hence why they call it a 'strikers instinct'.

[Niall_Quinn]

So you think it's a 'tactic' to take heavy touches and misplace passes? :rolleyes: It's pretty wild to attribute faults from an out of form player to a Wenger tactic or instruction. You're taking form and confidence out of the equation.

He doesn't instruct them to pass slower. In post match interviews he'll often say we didn't move the ball quick enough and the usual 'we lacked a bit of sharpness' or 'heavy legs' so that should be enough indication that he hasn't told them to play at a slower pace. I've said this before. It's pretty hard to remain composed, calm but play at a lightening fast pace and Wenger will often to refer to the players needing to be calm and composed when facing a stubborn defence. That's why I think the players can often get stuck in that one tempo phase of just moving the ball slowly. I don't think it's intentional but when we haven't got the confidence to play at a quicker pace because we've had some wayward passes or heavy touches....you get what we saw in the first half. That's my theory on why we're not playing to our full potential.

I can accept if the way we prepare for games mentally and what we do in training has the squad misfiring but that's different to tactics. It's something you keep muddling up.

You also may need to stop listening to the brainless English pundits on MOTD and BT Sports. That lack of footballing brain bollocks and Theo being at his best when not thinking is utter nonsense. The scorpion kick goal Giroud scored came about through pure instinct and just reacting to how the ball arrived. Most strikers react that way hence why they call it a 'strikers instinct'.

It's pretty wild to create a point that was never made. Where did I say it was a tactic to misplace a pass?

I have said throughout that the tactic seems to be to keep the ball at all costs, even if it means forgoing the opportunity to threaten the opposition in any meaningful way. This is a strange thread now. The insistence the term 'tippy tappy' be dropped because, for whatever reason, people assume this is a reference to tika taka. The idea we can't play high tempo, flowing, attacking football even though we've seen we can. And apparently because we can't pass? And yet we've seen we can indeed pass. So the summary seems to be this 'build up play' is understandable because the team is basically incompetent. Poor Wenger. Season after season the players are letting him down.

Who are the key culprits with these heavy touches and poor passes? Why hasn't the manager got rid of them if they are constantly leading the team to 'lack little bit sharpness' and not move the ball quickly enough? Why does he keep playing them? Why does he buy them in the first place? Like a mechanic who puts all the wrong parts in an engine so it won't drive the car. Fucking parts! Useless. Let's order more of them and see if that fixes the problem.

Theo Walcott, for example. How long has he been here threatening to deliver a full season of football at a competent level? I can't blame Theo. In his shoes I'd probably sit there and take the cash also. So whose fault?

Why can't Xhaka pass now? Has he suddenly become a bad player? Could it not be the fucked up, disorganised tactics and the general lethargy in the team (which Wenger delights in, always telling the players how tired they are) that has thrown his game off a cliff? Who performs well when they are not forced to perform? Most of us are lazy in that respect. It's not a trait to be proud of or to boast about and you won't get along in the world by sitting on your arse. So this isn't a pass for the players. But it's a big, big question to Wenger. What the fuck is he doing about it? Isn't it his job to sort out these problems?

Why does Giroud only play 10, maybe 20 minutes of the 90?

Why do we only show up for the second half?

These aren't tactics, but when you add it all together and you get a misfiring turd of a team in terms of preparation, aggression, ambition, desire, limping around the pitch and then tell them to execute a set of instructions, what are you going to get? The very shit we see, week in, week out. The shit that just about keeps us within that top 4 placing because the club has just enough money to bring in just enough talent to rely on brief spells of individual effort to scrape a result out. This is a farce. The very opposite of what it should be.

So whether Wenger tells them to go out and plod along or not, everything he does contributes to the unbearable end result. When was the last time the players saw one of their own kicked up the arse and then sold if they didn't get their shit together? He didn't even sell Diaby when it was clear the guy would never play again.

So I'll concede one point. Even though we most certainly can play a high energy and progressive game (because we've seen it), the farcical way in which the manager operates is unlikely to see that occur on a regular basis. That doesn't make it any less irritating because I'd put money on a half decent manager being able to come in here and in no time flat have us taking advantage of the talent we have in this squad and playing a much more effective game that's actually worth watching.

But that's not going to happen either. Basically we're fucked for the foreseeable future.

[Power n Glory]

:doh: God damn it! Forget it.

We just bought Xhaka! This is going nowhere fast. Something must be in the water.

[Goonermerree]

What worries me most is the payers saying that they were surprised at Preston's commitment. They're not a non-league side, they are professional footballers in the Championship and at home in a cup tie against Premier League opposition, why wouldn't they be committed? We've seen over the last decade or so our team take the opposition for granted and been burned. Treat every game with the same respect and commitment ourselves and we might win more of these matches and more easily.

[Power n Glory]

What worries me most is the payers saying that they were surprised at Preston's commitment. They're not a non-league side, they are professional footballers in the Championship and at home in a cup tie against Premier League opposition, why wouldn't they be committed? We've seen over the last decade or so our team take the opposition for granted and been burned. Treat every game with the same respect and commitment ourselves and we might win more of these matches and more easily.

The mentality throughout the camp has to be wrong. We've seen it from far too many teams. Even with experienced players we get the same lazy approach.

[Niall_Quinn]

:doh: God damn it! Forget it.

We just bought Xhaka! This is going nowhere fast. Something must be in the water.

I guess your point must be so advanced and high brow that nobody else can comprehend it. And I guess it must be so elevated it negates the need to make a defence of any points raised against it. For example, "Why can't Xhaka pass any more?" Answer - We just bought him. Heavy.

[Niall_Quinn]

What worries me most is the payers saying that they were surprised at Preston's commitment. They're not a non-league side, they are professional footballers in the Championship and at home in a cup tie against Premier League opposition, why wouldn't they be committed? We've seen over the last decade or so our team take the opposition for granted and been burned. Treat every game with the same respect and commitment ourselves and we might win more of these matches and more easily.

Doesn't surprise me at all. Wenger's definition of commitment: 1) Squeezing out every last pay day of a contract. 2) What the doctors tell him must happen when they come to visit.

That the players can say this is just another indicator of how out of touch everyone at the club is in terms of doing what it takes to compete at the very top. You could translate this as them wondering why Preston didn't take the game as lightly as we did.

[selassie]

What worries me most is the payers saying that they were surprised at Preston's commitment. They're not a non-league side, they are professional footballers in the Championship and at home in a cup tie against Premier League opposition, why wouldn't they be committed? We've seen over the last decade or so our team take the opposition for granted and been burned. Treat every game with the same respect and commitment ourselves and we might win more of these matches and more easily.

Yep it's alarming and a major concern. Even more so hearing Ramsey and Giroud say it live on TV after the game, it's like WTF?!!! What did they expect?!!!

I've no idea what was even said before the game to the players or amongst the players? In fact...I question whether we did any research on PNE before the game...I'm being deadly serious.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yep it's alarming and a major concern. Even more so hearing Ramsey and Giroud say it live on TV after the game, it's like WTF?!!! What did they expect?!!!

I've no idea what was even said before the game to the players or amongst the players? In fact...I question whether we did any research on PNE before the game...I'm being deadly serious.

Pre-game in the cup is usually the same as any other.

Match Attax trading and XBox.

[selassie]

Pre-game in the cup is usually the same as any other.

Match Attax trading and XBox.

:lol:

[Power n Glory]

I guess your point must be so advanced and high brow that nobody else can comprehend it. And I guess it must be so elevated it negates the need to make a defence of any points raised against it. For example, "Why can't Xhaka pass any more?" Answer - We just bought him. Heavy.

Something is really wrong with you today. I've already said it could be down to bad form or fatigue but you're not paying attention and going from one rant to another. Maybe he's not that good in the first place and can't pass well under pressure. All the highlight reel Youtube clips going around during the summer were all of him with loads of space to make the pass.


This is what I was referring to.


Who are the key culprits with these heavy touches and poor passes? Why hasn't the manager got rid of them if they are constantly leading the team to 'lack little bit sharpness' and not move the ball quickly enough? Why does he keep playing them? Why does he buy them in the first place? Like a mechanic who puts all the wrong parts in an engine so it won't drive the car. Fucking parts! Useless. Let's order more of them and see if that fixes the problem.

The key culprits are major signings like Xhaka. Ozil falls into that equation with the way he's played and not turned up recently. Cech also with the way he's been beaten on the near post. Kos included for letting his head drop when we concede. He has no leadership skills. Mustafi, Monreal.... There are plenty that make mistakes that they shouldn't make and it's down to the mentality more than ability.

[Niall_Quinn]

Something is really wrong with you today. I've already said it could be down to bad form or fatigue but you're not paying attention and going from one rant to another. Maybe he's not that good in the first place and can't pass well under pressure. All the highlight reel Youtube clips going around during the summer were all of him with loads of space to make the pass.


This is what I was referring to.



The key culprits are major signings like Xhaka. Ozil falls into that equation with the way he's played and not turned up recently. Cech also with the way he's been beaten on the near post. Kos included for letting his head drop when we concede. He has no leadership skills. Mustafi, Monreal.... There are plenty that make mistakes that they shouldn't make and it's down to the mentality more than ability.

We already agree on this. But what we can't seem to get around to is discussing in any detail why Wenger allows them to tap the ball around the midfield 900 times before venturing into the business end of the pitch (let's just assume he's not 100% responsible for it, even though he is). Why isn't he off the bench when they are fucking around like that? We both know the only time he gets off the bench waving his arms in fury is if one of them loses precious possession or musters up the nerve to shoot at goal. Oh, and when he needs to do his zip up. He lacks a little bit energy himself.

[Power n Glory]

We already agree on this. But what we can't seem to get around to is discussing in any detail why Wenger allows them to tap the ball around the midfield 900 times before venturing into the business end of the pitch (let's just assume he's not 100% responsible for it, even though he is). Why isn't he off the bench when they are fucking around like that? We both know the only time he gets off the bench waving his arms in fury is if one of them loses precious possession or musters up the nerve to shoot at goal. Oh, and when he needs to do his zip up. He lacks a little bit energy himself.

We've discussed that 1000 times already. Maybe not today or even this season but we've discussed it and agreed on this point already. Do you need any further clarification on my position on this guy? We never used to agree on him being the problem but we do now. I’ve always said he’s the key problem. It’s not the money, stadium or the Board. He has a low standard for himself and the team from what it appears. We know he’s incapable of motivating the players or adding any extra input. That’s why project youth was such a disaster compared to the Highbury years. But these players we’ve bought should hold a much higher standard for themselves considering how much we’ve paid for them and the rep they came with. I’m not letting them off the hook just because they have an idiot in charge. It’s similar to the feeling I had with Chelsea when they were close to relegation. Even if Jose is an absolute prick, to allow the standard of football to sink that low is an embarrassment to the club.

[mastermind84]

Poor tactical planning

Poor positional planning

Poor performances

I can't judge any player until Wenger is gone.