Match Reaction - Arsenal 1-2 Watford

[Niall_Quinn]

You know what I'm going to say.

I just hope he actually does it.

[AFC Leveller]

10 behind Chelsea tonight and probably 13 come 3 pm on Saturday.

Hope he resigns, no point in sticking around any longer. Single handedly beat his own team today with his lack of preparation and fucked up team selection.

[Globalgunner]

We were unlucky. Unlucky to have a moron in charge these last 13 years

[selassie]

Nothing surprises me with this team and TBH we were very lucky against Burnley so it's not like our first XI had much momentum going into this game. We've been shite for a while now and have quite a difficult set of games coming up so I expect our annual collapse to begin now.

[Niall_Quinn]

10 behind Chelsea tonight and probably 13 come 3 pm on Saturday.

Hope he resigns, no point in sticking around any longer. Single handedly beat his own team today with his lack of preparation and fucked up team selection.

That's the story of the match, plain and simple.

I said at the start of the season we had a good squad, good players, but Wenger is an anchor that no team in the world could drag to a title. He just keeps on proving it. The biggest has-been in world sport.

Anyway, another season over. All that remain is for Wenger to be inexplicably offered a new contract. Then we roll on to a carbon copy in 2017/18, although we'll still be able to look forward to going through the motions and waiting until the end of that groundhog event to make any judgements.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

10 behind Chelsea tonight and probably 13 come 3 pm on Saturday.

Hope he resigns, no point in sticking around any longer. Single handedly beat his own team today with his lack of preparation and fucked up team selection.

9 behind.

Also, fuck this, off to watch Federer again. :bow:

[Penguin]

Wenger's a joke. He transmits his losing mentality onto his team.

Our title challenge has been well and truly killed off (it was already dead but Wenger has chopped it's head off and gutted it to make sure). A mediocre manager will only get you mediocre results.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

two words all that's needed

Giroud, Ramsey

[Niall_Quinn]

two words all that's needed

Giroud, Ramsey

He had things set up with Alexis doing great up top and Bif coming off the bench and scoring goals. He'd lucked into it again but it was working.

So he changed it.

Where we had pace and movement and stamina he replaced it with a sluggish, static, part-time act.

With the midfield you could stretch things and say injuries and disciplinary problems forced his hand - not that his hand has ever needed forcing to play a consistently off-form Ramsey.

The striker situation though. He has no excuse whatsoever. He's just a stubborn, deluded git.

The two halves of this game are everything you need to know about Arsenal in the last decade.

[Chippy]

You know what I'm going to say.

I just hope he actually does it.

Scum only drew with Sunderland and Chelsea dropped points. What a chance to capitalise!! But no, we still have the dopey old cunt in charge to fuck up again! Please just fucking resign you fucking cunt.

[Coca Kolo]

Seen that performance countless times over the past 5/6 years, even more embarrassing when you consider the squad that we have. Just a total fuck up from a team that has no drive unless they go behind, a team that looks and plays in a disjointed manner.

[Marc Overmars]

What a pathetic result.

They just don't want it enough, their minds were probably on Chelsea at the weekend. Even if we beat them we're still going to need a miracle.

Wenger. :wave:
He probably wouldn't even be able to motivate a bunch of drunks in a brewery.

[Coca Kolo]

I thought Ox had a very good game. Worth utilising him in our non-existent central midfield.

[Munchies]

https://youtu.be/LKQNSEmdW_A

:lol:

[Gooner23]

He had things set up with Alexis doing great up top and Bif coming off the bench and scoring goals. He'd lucked into it again but it was working.

So he changed it.

Where we had pace and movement and stamina he replaced it with a sluggish, static, part-time act.

With the midfield you could stretch things and say injuries and disciplinary problems forced his hand - not that his hand has ever needed forcing to play a consistently off-form Ramsey.

The striker situation though. He has no excuse whatsoever. He's just a stubborn, deluded git.

The two halves of this game are everything you need to know about Arsenal in the last decade.

Well even in midfield he could have retained Ox after his decent showing on Sat. But no he couldn't help himself, Ramsey straight back in despite not even being fully fit.

To be fair the starting 11 should have been good enough but once again our players seem to lack any kind of motivation. That comes directly from the manager.

[Power n Glory]

Oh shut up Wenger. Admits we in one interview that we're having slow starts and it's something even the players admitted in our last game. But as soon as the pundit mentions it he gets defensive and dismisses it as if unlinked. Fuck off.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Just fuck off!

[Niall_Quinn]

After all these years Wenger still only sees what he wants to see. He just casually says (how many times now this season alone?), oh yes, we were lacking mentally. As if it's a rare event and as if he somehow isn't involved.

[selassie]

https://youtu.be/LKQNSEmdW_A

:lol:

Not mentally ready at the start of the match? WTF? :lol:

No mention of tiredness and handbrakes so there is some improvement I suppose :rolleyes:

[Coca Kolo]

No other top 16 club in Europe would tolerate a manager as lamentable as Wenger. Every season, there are at least 3-4 (perhaps more) reasons why we lose, with mentality being primary. There is no accountability as to why this is the case and has been the case for best part of a decade. It's become a running joke.

[Munchies]

https://youtu.be/7KOxv1oXVNQ

:haha:

[Munchies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PaTiGw-Scs

:bow:

[Munchies]

https://youtu.be/XtSOY80mFK4

[AFC Leveller]

Hopefully Ramsay is injured and won't play on Saturday. I'd play maintland or Ox alongside Coq.

Wenger talks about handbreaks all the time but he is the biggest handbrake we have. He is holding us back yet again this season.

[Gooner23]

To admit there weren't mentally ready is pathetic really. Just shows how untouchable he is, and he knows that as well. If he cares as much about the club as he claims to then this has to be his last season. Another contract would be for purely selfish reasons.

I want to get angry about this result but it's just so predictable. Chelsea drop points and still extend their lead over us, our squad is as good as theirs yet the league is done and dusted by end of Jan thanks to our managers incompetence.

[Özim]

Is anyone surprised, I'm not, it happens every season, this team will never win the league of CL with this manager in charge, but what's worse our football is dreadful and boring and every season pans out the same way, there's no unpredictability.

[Marc Overmars]

To admit there weren't mentally ready is pathetic really. Just shows how untouchable he is, and he knows that as well. If he cares as much about the club as he claims to then this has to be his last season. Another contract would be for purely selfish reasons.

I want to get angry about this result but it's just so predictable. Chelsea drop points and still extend their lead over us, our squad is as good as theirs yet the league is done and dusted by end of Jan thanks to our managers incompetence.

Incredible really. If they're not ready for a week where they can potentially get within striking distance of 1st place, then that's a pretty sad indictment on the manager.

[Özim]

This bloke :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOGCWvIL_0E

[Niall_Quinn]

In the light of a new day this isn't as bad as we first thought.

It was one of those days really. These things happen. The rain affected us. The team selection was good but really, the ref stuffed us. One positive, the manager is great, he still knows what he's doing and absolutely he should stay on. Anyway, I'm very confident going to the chavs and the title is still on.

[Letters]

The rain affected us :haha:

[Xhaka Can’t]

I didn't even realise we were playing last night until my brother texted me after Watford's first.

Not on TV and a Cat C or B match and I would have been at this match last season and seasons past.

This Club have finally broken me. I've been to one match this season and that was West Ham v Watford.

Have I missed going? Other than not having seen a few mates this season, nope.

Fuck this Club, right now, Arsenal just isn't worth any investment. Truth be told, it hasn't been worth any emotional or financial investment for some time. But there was always hope.

Misplaced hope.

Stupid hope.

Delusional hope.

But even delusional hope has left the building.

[Letters]

But even delusional hope has left the building.
Will you STOP calling me that :angry:

[Niall_Quinn]

I didn't even realise we were playing last night until my brother texted me after Watford's first.

Not on TV and a Cat C or B match and I would have been at this match last season and seasons past.

This Club have finally broken me. I've been to one match this season and that was West Ham v Watford.

Have I missed going? Other than not having seen a few mates this season, nope.

Fuck this Club, right now, Arsenal just isn't worth any investment. Truth be told, it hasn't been worth any emotional or financial investment for some time. But there was always hope.

Misplaced hope.

Stupid hope.

Delusional hope.

But even delusional hope has left the building.

It is negativity like this that is the real cause of the problem. The fans have sabotaged the season. Again. For the 13th time in a row. If they got behind the team, saw no evil, heard no evil, spoke no evil, listened to their master's voice - all would be well. But no.

Thanks a lot.

[Niall_Quinn]

Absolute fucking masterclass in breath control. The way he manages to achieve one continuous noise at an almost unwavering pitch, like a turbine.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN3Cju6Nyfk

[Letters]

Absolute fucking masterclass in breath control. The way he manages to achieve one continuous noise at an almost unwavering pitch, like a turbine.

He's obviously been taking lessons from MrsL <_<

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I simply can't be bothered to watch most arsenal games, but watching the highlights now the first half was more than poor, it was bizarre......the movement and body language of the players reminds me of a mate who took too much tramadol for back pain.


The second goal is unbelievable, Capoue isn't a speed merchant why does no one muscle him off the ball or pay attention to Troy Deeney ghosting in.

I blame the lack of pace in the side, but again that's heavily medicated defending.

[The Dismantler]

Absolute fucking masterclass in breath control. The way he manages to achieve one continuous noise at an almost unwavering pitch, like a turbine.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN3Cju6Nyfk

Fucking spot on Moh!! I'm with you 110% on everything you said!!

[Power n Glory]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL2ScbtOrjk

This is a good one.

Disagree with what he said about the first half. It wasn’t even a case of us playing in front of them and getting hit on the counter, we could hardly string a pass together and the midfield was vacant. We were overrun and in the middle and doesn’t help when idiots like Ramsey can’t read the game and just vacates the middle in the first phase leaving Coquelin isolated. Ozil then figures out that he needs to drop deep to help with possession but it’s too late by then and he’s not exactly a leader when it comes to dictating the pace of a game either.

But some good points made about switching Iwobi to the middle which killed our game in the 2nd half. What a joke of a manager we have along with some spineless players.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Fucking spot on Moh!! I'm with you 110% on everything you said!!

I think he has a point, you can't attribute victory on saturday to steve bould and then attribute defeat on tuesday to Wenger....that's totally ridiculous

Saturday was Wenger, Tuesday was Wenger.....

He's right about the fans at the stadium, and it's ridiculous to blame Wenger for that....the fans have been like that ever since we moved to the Emirates. Get there on time, stay to the end.....no i don't go week in week out....haven't been to an Arsenal game in over a year in fact but been to about 30 games at the Emirates stadium since the move and it's always the same whatever the score....fans shuffling out from the 80 minute mark.

I think Wenger needs to go, he's utterly utterly stale and this club needs some effervescence and a need fresh approach, but we can't keep pretending that it's the answer to all our problems. We need to create a better atmosphere at the Emirates stadium and i don't think getting rid of Wenger will necessarily improve that....the singing section....rewarding loyalty points for people who get there on time and don't leave till the end i think would.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think he has a point, you can't attribute victory on saturday to steve bould and then attribute defeat on tuesday to Wenger....that's totally ridiculous

Saturday was Wenger, Tuesday was Wenger.....

He's right about the fans at the stadium, and it's ridiculous to blame Wenger for that....the fans have been like that ever since we moved to the Emirates. Get there on time, stay to the end.....no i don't go week in week out....haven't been to an Arsenal game in over a year in fact but been to about 30 games at the Emirates stadium since the move and it's always the same whatever the score....fans shuffling out from the 80 minute mark.

I think Wenger needs to go, he's utterly utterly stale and this club needs some effervescence and a need fresh approach, but we can't keep pretending that it's the answer to all our problems. We need to create a better atmosphere at the Emirates stadium and i don't think getting rid of Wenger will necessarily improve that....the singing section....rewarding loyalty points for people who get there on time and don't leave till the end i think would.

Nobody was saying that seriously. It was a joke, in-club humour. Everyone could see Wenger with the earpiece and mic during both games.

What's interesting though is the way we approached both games. Against Soton we fielded an attacking side, played constructive football and everyone looked liked they were enjoying themselves. As if some great weight had been lifted. Probably because Wenger didn't place much value on the game or the outcome. I still say it was a ridiculous team selection, even though the performance was good. It's typical Wenger. Disjointed. No overall strategy. That game was an opportunity to make maybe 3 or 4 changes and see what advantage those changes might bring moving forward. Something we could take and use for the remainder of the season. But what can we really take from a game where 10 changes were made and the majority of those players won't get a look-in anyway, as we saw yesterday.

Against Watford the weight of the world was back. The energy was gone. Everyone was nervous. We couldn't pass. There was zero ambition in the football. For the first half at least. Wenger even said we had mental problems (and he should know). It's most likely him. He takes all his paranoia and fear and negativity and transfers it to the players before the games he considers to be important. I have called him a coward all through this season and I mean it. Afraid players will get injured, afraid players might get tired, afraid to play attacking football, afraid to lose possession, afraid to pick an in-form eleven and let them go out there and play. Then, when his fears are realised and we lose a goal or are trailing with time running out, suddenly we can play. Even though the players should be rightly criticised for unacceptable performance like the first half last night, it's also a testament they can rapidly up their game. Imagine if they couldn't do that. Imagine how many losses we'd have on the books now.

A new manager might not be experienced as Wenger, might not know as much about football as Wenger, but if he played the game without the fear then I'm betting he'd be twice as effective as Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

The difference between Saturday and last night was obvious. Forget strategy. It's just team selection and playing style.

- Play a midfielder that's not the best ball distributor but and plays simple passes

+ along with midfielder that has no positional awareness, bombs forward and leaves gaping gaps in the middle

+ an inactive/lazy attacking midfielder that plays well in patches

= no control in the midfield control, no rhythm and poor build up play.

Edit - And that's just the midfield selection problem. Even if we solve that issue, we still have that lump playing up front. Even if we manage to get the flow and rhythm right in midfield, Giroud has the bottle neck effect on our play. It comes to a halt.

[Marc Overmars]

I think he has a point, you can't attribute victory on saturday to steve bould and then attribute defeat on tuesday to Wenger....that's totally ridiculous

Saturday was Wenger, Tuesday was Wenger.....

He's right about the fans at the stadium, and it's ridiculous to blame Wenger for that....the fans have been like that ever since we moved to the Emirates. Get there on time, stay to the end.....no i don't go week in week out....haven't been to an Arsenal game in over a year in fact but been to about 30 games at the Emirates stadium since the move and it's always the same whatever the score....fans shuffling out from the 80 minute mark.

I think Wenger needs to go, he's utterly utterly stale and this club needs some effervescence and a need fresh approach, but we can't keep pretending that it's the answer to all our problems. We need to create a better atmosphere at the Emirates stadium and i don't think getting rid of Wenger will necessarily improve that....the singing section....rewarding loyalty points for people who get there on time and don't leave till the end i think would.

That would be embarrassing, the club having to essentially beg people to turn up on time and stay, imagine the stick we'd get for that! Fans need to take responsibly for themselves but unfortunately the hardcore goers have likely been priced out and replaced by tourists and part-timers for whom watching Arsenal is akin to going to the cinema.

The Emirates is a soulless pit. Not really surprised how the team often struggle to get going at home compared to away games.

[Power n Glory]

That would be embarrassing, the club having to essentially beg people to turn up on time and stay, imagine the stick we'd get for that! Fans need to take responsibly for themselves but unfortunately the hardcore goers have likely been priced out and replaced by tourists and part-timers for whom watching Arsenal is akin to going to the cinema.

The Emirates is a soulless pit. Not really surprised how the team often struggle to get going at home compared to away games.

Or maybe people are just growing tired of the same shit? Those that are leaving early are probably regulars and not tourists because they wouldn't arrive late or leave early if it's their first time going. It comes back to the team and way we're playing. It's not inspiring.

[Marc Overmars]

Or maybe people are just growing tired of the same shit? Those that are leaving early are probably regulars and not tourists because they wouldn't arrive late or leave early if it's their first time going. It comes back to the team and way we're playing. It's not inspiring.

Fans have been buggering off early ever since the move to the Emirates. There is definitely a new kind of fan attending games now.

[Power n Glory]

Fans have been buggering off early ever since the move to the Emirates. There is definitely a new kind of fan attending games now.

New fans...yes. But I seriously doubt new fans that don't often visit the Emirates are coming in late and leaving early. It's a bitch getting to the game and even more of bitch getting back home when you have to queue at the station or wade through a massive crowd just to get to the station. It has to be regulars leaving early that know the routine and can't stand the same story. Not saying people won't leave early but the numbers will continue to grow if we continue to play shit. If we're out of the title race by March, we'll start to see less people attending games as well as people leaving early. We're at a point now where people aren't even satisfied with a late comeback because we all know damn well we shouldn't be in that sort of position at home against Watford.

[selassie]

Is anyone surprised, I'm not, it happens every season, this team will never win the league of CL with this manager in charge, but what's worse our football is dreadful and boring and every season pans out the same way, there's no unpredictability.

Not at all surprised no. Many including myself called this season even before a ball was kicked.

This season is no different to last season, why would it be when we have Wenger in charge? This is a man who went into our first game of the season with Holding & Chambers as our starting CB's, he doesn't care about winning, he will do the absolute bare minimum to achieve the seasons targets, he sets the targets, he is accountable to nobody.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

New fans...yes. But I seriously doubt new fans that don't often visit the Emirates are coming in late and leaving early. It's a bitch getting to the game and even more of bitch getting back home when you have to queue at the station or wade through a massive crowd just to get to the station. It has to be regulars leaving early that know the routine and can't stand the same story. Not saying people won't leave early but the numbers will continue to grow if we continue to play shit. If we're out of the title race by March, we'll start to see less people attending games as well as people leaving early. We're at a point now where people aren't even satisfied with a late comeback because we all know damn well we shouldn't be in that sort of position at home against Watford.

No i think you're right it is the regulars doing it, but as MO has stated they have always done it.....rain or sunshine, great game or terrible game, winning, losing or on a knife edge they are off at the same time to beat the crowds.

I have been to games in 2007 and 2008, and games in 2015 and 2016 and it's not increased or decreased it's stayed the same.

I agree with you fans have a right to be angry paying so much and seeing dross, but these people would do it anyway

[selassie]

To admit there weren't mentally ready is pathetic really. Just shows how untouchable he is, and he knows that as well. If he cares as much about the club as he claims to then this has to be his last season. Another contract would be for purely selfish reasons.

I want to get angry about this result but it's just so predictable. Chelsea drop points and still extend their lead over us, our squad is as good as theirs yet the league is done and dusted by end of Jan thanks to our managers incompetence.

He mentioned the mentality thing regarding the players like it wasn't his responsibility! Why is he even saying stuff like this in public?!

I'm not angry either, can't be bothered to invest my emotions in this team, not worth it. At least I can enjoy Saturday now, not going to watch the game, I'm taking my kids out for the day instead. :)

[Power n Glory]

No i think you're right it is the regulars doing it, but as MO has stated they have always done it.....rain or sunshine, great game or terrible game, winning, losing or on a knife edge they are off at the same time to beat the crowds.

I have been to games in 2007 and 2008, and games in 2015 and 2016 and it's not increased or decreased it's stayed the same.

I agree with you fans have a right to be angry paying so much and seeing dross, but these people would do it anyway

How do you know the numbers have stayed the same through the years? Also, it's not as if 2007 and 2008 were great years for us either.

I'm not that fussed about people arriving late or leaving early. Life happens and it may be a case of people traveling far just to see the game but have an early start in the morning. Nobody knows what sacrifices are being made just to be at the game so I can't really assume too much.

Full crowd, half empty crowd, it's no excuse for a shit show from the players and poor prep from the manager.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

How do you know the numbers have stayed the same through the years? Also, it's not as if 2007 and 2008 were great years for us either.

I'm not that fussed about people arriving late or leaving early. Life happens and it may be a case of people traveling far just to see the game but have an early start in the morning. Nobody knows what sacrifices are being made just to be at the game so I can't really assume too much.

Full crowd, half empty crowd, it's no excuse for a shit show from the players and poor prep from the manager.

It's anecdotal evidence of course, all i'm saying is that i've been to games at the beginning of our time at the emirates and recently and there was no noticeable difference in the level in the people leaving at the 80 minute mark. It doesn't matter if it's a midweek evening encounter or a saturday afternoon kick off

There is no excuse for starting the way we did last night, of course i don't blame that on anyone but the manager and the players

Would we still be performing like this if the fans got here on time, stayed to the end and got behind the team more?....quite probably but there's also an argument to be made that a more buoyant atmosphere does help the players. A one off example but i remember we were getting outplayed by Barcelona at home six years ago but even watching on tv the crowd were as noisy as i've ever known them to be and i think that filtered through to the players and it helped them go up that extra level.

That's not the same as blaming fans for the players performances, that's saying the crowd atmosphere does make a difference.

In 2006 when we first moved to the Emirates there was no where near the same negativity amongst the fan base (understandably the fans have been very patient over ten years for no real reward) but people leave out of a sense of habbit rather than what's going on, on the pitch. If it's an evening game and we're already comfortably winning.....that's fine....get home for work in the morning i get that. But on a saturday afternoon? really.....whilst i think TFL could have been a bit more helpful with making better access to drayton park and opening it up on matchdays......i've left the ground early once (2-0 home defeat to schalke) and usually make my way out at the final whistle and the difference for me in getting back to either highbury and islington and finsbury park is 10-15 minutes at most.

Now yes just to confirm i'm only basing this on my own experiences which yeah are probably about 10% of the overall games played at the emirates, but no i'm not in anyway trying to make excuses for Wenger what happened last night was on him and the team completely. And yes i do think the atmosphere will improve if he's not here next season, but at the same time i honestly wish our ground was more intimidating to away teams

[Power n Glory]

It's anecdotal evidence of course, all i'm saying is that i've been to games at the beginning of our time at the emirates and recently and there was no noticeable difference in the level in the people leaving at the 80 minute mark. It doesn't matter if it's a midweek evening encounter or a saturday afternoon kick off

There is no excuse for starting the way we did last night, of course i don't blame that on anyone but the manager and the players

Would we still be performing like this if the fans got here on time, stayed to the end and got behind the team more?....quite probably but there's also an argument to be made that a more buoyant atmosphere does help the players. A one off example but i remember we were getting outplayed by Barcelona at home six years ago but even watching on tv the crowd were as noisy as i've ever known them to be and i think that filtered through to the players and it helped them go up that extra level.

That's not the same as blaming fans for the players performances, that's saying the crowd atmosphere does make a difference.

In 2006 when we first moved to the Emirates there was no where near the same negativity amongst the fan base (understandably the fans have been very patient over ten years for no real reward) but people leave out of a sense of habbit rather than what's going on, on the pitch. If it's an evening game and we're already comfortably winning.....that's fine....get home for work in the morning i get that. But on a saturday afternoon? really.....whilst i think TFL could have been a bit more helpful with making better access to drayton park and opening it up on matchdays......i've left the ground early once (2-0 home defeat to schalke) and usually make my way out at the final whistle and the difference for me in getting back to either highbury and islington and finsbury park is 10-15 minutes at most.

Now yes just to confirm i'm only basing this on my own experiences which yeah are probably about 10% of the overall games played at the emirates, but no i'm not in anyway trying to make excuses for Wenger what happened last night was on him and the team completely. And yes i do think the atmosphere will improve if he's not here next season, but at the same time i honestly wish our ground was more intimidating to away teams

That's if you live in Central London. There are people that live on the outskirts of London traveling to games. From Surrey, Kent, Essex...and if you miss a particular train, you may be waiting 30 minutes just for the next one. Some people work weekends or have kids to look after. Nobody can judge. Also, the crowd atmosphere is separate to those that arrive late or leave early. We're talking about a small fraction leaving the ground, it's not the whole stadium. I agree with MO on the singing section but I wou;dn't be so quick to judge whoever has to leave early or arrive late.

[Letters]

Fans have been buggering off early ever since the move to the Emirates. There is definitely a new kind of fan attending games now.

Happened at Highbury too. It may be more now but it didn't start with the move to the Emirates.

[Letters]

Would we still be performing like this if the fans got here on time, stayed to the end and got behind the team more?....quite probably but there's also an argument to be made that a more buoyant atmosphere does help the players. A one off example but i remember we were getting outplayed by Barcelona at home six years ago but even watching on tv the crowd were as noisy as i've ever known them to be and i think that filtered through to the players and it helped them go up that extra level.
It does make a difference. A while back Wenger had a bit of a moan about the crowd. The club have spent years relentlessly marketing themselves at the more affluent, middle-class fan and pricing out the more traditional raucous support and that's what they've got.
:shrug:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's if you live in Central London. There are people that live on the outskirts of London traveling to games. From Surrey, Kent, Essex...and if you miss a particular train, you may be waiting 30 minutes just for the next one. Some people work weekends or have kids to look after. Nobody can judge. Also, the crowd atmosphere is separate to those that arrive late or leave early. We're talking about a small fraction leaving the ground, it's not the whole stadium. I agree with MO on the singing section but I wou;dn't be so quick to judge whoever has to leave early or arrive late.


I live in mid essex, the 10-15 minutes i am referring to is the difference in the time it takes to get back to the nearest station from the Emirates. If you leave ten minutes before the end you will get there 10-15 minutes quicker than you would if you stayed to the end, now add to that the ten minutes between the time they do leave and the end of the match....30 minutes tops. Like i say i get that completley during mid-week, not on saturday afternoons though.

I have gone to the ground when i've had to go to work the next day, if i get back before midnight i'm doing well, all i'm saying is if you are consistently turning up late to games, leaving early and heading down for half time refreshments 5-10 minutes before half time how engaged are you really with what's going on, on the pitch.

[Power n Glory]

I live in mid essex, the 10-15 minutes i am referring to is the difference in the time it takes to get back to the nearest station from the Emirates. If you leave ten minutes before the end you will get there 10-15 minutes quicker than you would if you stayed to the end, now add to that the ten minutes between the time they do leave and the end of the match....30 minutes tops. Like i say i get that completley during mid-week, not on saturday afternoons though.

I have gone to the ground when i've had to go to work the next day, if i get back before midnight i'm doing well, all i'm saying is if you are consistently turning up late to games, leaving early and heading down for half time refreshments 5-10 minutes before half time how engaged are you really with what's going on, on the pitch.

If you use the C2C you know that if you just miss one train, it could be a 30 minute wait for the next one. Same goes for Southern rail and that's if it's actually running.

But who are you or Moh to judge? That's your experience. People have other things in their lives going on. I don't think the players or manager care. It's not tied into noise levels.

[Marc Overmars]

This bloke :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOGCWvIL_0E

Just seen this. :haha:

I'm sure AFTV must be paying him now to say the most asinine things.

[AFC Leveller]

When we pay both Ramsay and Giroud we lack fluidity, are static and easy to defend against. last night (first half) and the first half against Bournemouth were almost identical, we started poorly, made mistakes defensively and didn't provide any threat upfront (guess who started that game). We are a much better team when we play with a mobile forward, how long does the manager have to persist with Giroud and Ramsay before he realises they are just not up to it. Giroud is a good sub, he brings something different but when he is played from the start, we cannot start high tempo, we cannot play that high intensity game and it results in boring football along with negative results.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If you use the C2C you know that if you just miss one train, it could be a 30 minute wait for the next one. Same goes for Southern rail and that's if it's actually running.

But who are you or Moh to judge? That's your experience. People have other things in their lives going on. I don't think the players or manager care. It's not tied into noise levels.

You honestly don't think a player's confidence levels are going to change based on the atmosphere in home grounds?.....are our players so different from the rest of the players in the premier league in that respect.

I respect that people have better things to be doing, but seriously every game?.....like you say it's the more seasoned fans who go week in week out who are likely to be doing this.
All i'm saying is if it is the same people week in week out who are season ticket holders arriving late and leaving early would they not be better off giving in their season tickets, this is not just my opinion I worked with a guy who was an Arsenal season ticket holder for years used to meet him for drinks at the Bailey (before it closed) before games and it annoyed the hell out of him and he had further to travel than I did. And more than that it's not something that is particular to Arsenal, i've been to Anfield more than a few times as my brother lives up in Liverpool and the fans at the ground leave early and if you check the liverpool forums and vlogs they get just as frustrated with it.

People can do what they like at the end of the day, i just think it's a little bit pointless paying what is a lot of money and not even bothering to watch the whole 90 minutes.

And it's not even people like Moh, DT gets fed up with it as well....he blames the club as well for not doing enough to create the right atmosphere and again I think he's right.

I think DT is the last person i'd want to socialise with (though to be fair on him i wouldn't want to socialise with any of the muppets from Arsenal fan TV) but i'll give him his due, he's there week in, week out (he was one of the few of those lot who travelled out to Croatia for our champions league tie against Dynamo Zagreb) and unlike a few people on this board (and i don't mean you) the guy desperately wants to be wrong in his negative assessments.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Just seen this. :haha:

I'm sure AFTV must be paying him now to say the most asinine things.

He's just entrenched, there is nothing Wenger could do that Ty would criticise him for. There are fans like that, they've bought into the Wenger mythos and they won't be dissuaded.

[Power n Glory]

You honestly don't think a player's confidence levels are going to change based on the atmosphere in home grounds?.....are our players so different from the rest of the players in the premier league in that respect.

I respect that people have better things to be doing, but seriously every game?.....like you say it's the more seasoned fans who go week in week out who are likely to be doing this.
All i'm saying is if it is the same people week in week out who are season ticket holders arriving late and leaving early would they not be better off giving in their season tickets, this is not just my opinion I worked with a guy who was an Arsenal season ticket holder for years used to meet him for drinks at the Bailey (before it closed) before games and it annoyed the hell out of him and he had further to travel than I did. And more than that it's not something that is particular to Arsenal, i've been to Anfield more than a few times as my brother lives up in Liverpool and the fans at the ground leave early and if you check the liverpool forums and vlogs they get just as frustrated with it.

People can do what they like at the end of the day, i just think it's a little bit pointless paying what is a lot of money and not even bothering to watch the whole 90 minutes.

And it's not even people like Moh, DT gets fed up with it as well....he blames the club as well for not doing enough to create the right atmosphere and again I think he's right.

I think DT is the last person i'd want to socialise with (though to be fair on him i wouldn't want to socialise with any of the muppets from Arsenal fan TV) but i'll give him his due, he's there week in, week out (he was one of the few of those lot who travelled out to Croatia for our champions league tie against Dynamo Zagreb) and unlike a few people on this board (and i don't mean you) the guy desperately wants to be wrong in his negative assessments.

Again, if people have families to get home and want to see before bed, that's their business. None of yours. Even if they don't, it's none of your business. It's a small fraction of people.

Also,the noise levels are separate from people leaving. You can’t honestly think the players notice the difference between 50,000+ fans making noise to a few 100 fans leaving at the end? Did they notice against Burnley when we had to win a last minute penalty? Or home against Southampton? I doubt it. We still went on to win the game. Heck, the fuckers hardly clap the fans when the game is over. Pointless conversation and fraction of the problems we have. I'm done discussing it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Again, if people have families to get home and want to see before bed, that's their business. None of yours. Even if they don't, it's none of your business. It's a small fraction of people.

Also,the noise levels are separate from people leaving. You can’t honestly think the players notice the difference between 50,000+ fans making noise to a few 100 fans leaving at the end? Did they notice against Burnley when we had to win a last minute penalty? Or home against Southampton? I doubt it. We still went on to win the game. Heck, the fuckers hardly clap the fans when the game is over. Pointless conversation and fraction of the problems we have. I'm done discussing it.

I wasn't discussing those two issues at all like they are the same, they are completely separate. I was merely stating that fan atmosphere makes a difference in the same discussion.

I do think there should be a singing section so you have all the fans that will make noise throughout the game more concentrated

It's not a small fraction of people, it's about 10-15% (and that's a conservative estimate) who leave early so you are looking at about a few thousand people at least

[Niall_Quinn]

I wonder has Moh had wider success deflecting the problems away from Wenger and focusing them on the fans? The fans will pipe up when there's something to watch other that the same old shite ball being dished up by Wenger season after season. Wenger isn't paying the fans to turn up, it's the fans paying the team to turn up and more often than not it doesn't happen. It would be nice if the team stopped arriving 45 minutes late for games, that's for sure.

[Maestro]

Anything, absolutely anything to hasten Wenger's departure. He's a fucking cancer to this club now and treats every single fan of the club with the utmost contempt, you'd have to be an imbecile of the highest order not to be offended by some of the shit/excuses he comes out with............ or you could just be Ty

[Power n Glory]

I don't even think Ty can take himself seriously. It was raining. :lol: He's embarrassed by the performance but because he's put up so such a strong defence of Wenger in public, he won't back down in public.

[Ernesto]

How do you know the numbers have stayed the same through the years? Also, it's not as if 2007 and 2008 were great years for us either.

I'm not that fussed about people arriving late or leaving early. Life happens and it may be a case of people traveling far just to see the game but have an early start in the morning. Nobody knows what sacrifices are being made just to be at the game so I can't really assume too much.

Full crowd, half empty crowd, it's no excuse for a shit show from the players and poor prep from the manager.

I don't think we lost a single home league game in 2007/08, did we? It could account for the difference in attendances/number of people leaving early etc

[Xhaka Can’t]

People have always arrived late and left early. No doubt many have valid reasons. However the volume and frequency with which this happens is ridiculous.

I've been at matches where the team has played a blinder and provided amazing entertainment ripping teams apart only to be met with a half empty stadium at the final whistle.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

People have always arrived late and left early. No doubt many have valid reasons. However the volume and frequency with which this happens is ridiculous.

I've been at matches where the team has played a blinder and provided amazing entertainment ripping teams apart only to be met with a half empty stadium at the final whistle.

And so have I

I think certain individuals take exception to this because they think it's making excuses for Wenger when in fact the two issues are seperate.

I'm not blaming the embarassing home defeats on fans, I just wish people would stay to the end

[Özim]

And so have I

I think certain individuals take exception to this because they think it's making excuses for Wenger when in fact the two issues are seperate.

I'm not blaming the embarassing home defeats on fans, I just wish people would stay to the end

I think if you're being entertained most will stay until the end, problem for us is our football and performances are so poor that 90 minutes seems like several days so hardly surprising people leave early. In additon the club take the fans for granted and give nothing back and the team who get paid an absolute load of money for playing football don't show any real desire, hardly inspiring stuff.

At the end of the day the fan is the one paying to watch, so they can do what they like, they are under no obligation to stay if they want to, the manager and players however have no excuses, no blame can be apportioned on the fans when they have to watch the rubbish we put out almost every week, rubbish with no desire, hunger or fight and very little quality to boot, one man thinks it's entertaining (well 3 including Ty and Chris) but I reckon most don't.

Cheap shot by Moh to point fingers at the fans a la Wenger, after 10 years of this it's hardly a surprise people are turning their backs, the club have had enough free passes now, this is 100% the fault of the club and noone else, even if the manager chooses to point the finger at everything else, the failure to acknowledge they ever do anything wrong is frankly embarassing.

[Gooner23]

I think the two issues are seperate as well. Wenger has no business blaming the fans for his (and the players) ineptitude.

But the home support has always been a bit ropey. I've been to games where we've scored a hatful and you could still here a pin drop for big chunks of it. And fans have always left early as well.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Zim, the quality of the match does not in any way correlate with the issue we are talking about.

[Marc Overmars]

I think the two issues are seperate as well. Wenger has no business blaming the fans for his (and the players) ineptitude.

But the home support has always been a bit ropey. I've been to games where we've scored a hatful and you could still here a pin drop for big chunks of it. And fans have always left early as well.

I went to the 6-0 against Ludogorets I can honestly say it's one of the worst crowds I've ever been a part of.

[Power n Glory]

Let's be honest, does anyone think it makes a difference whether fans stay or go to how the players perform?

[Marc Overmars]

Probably not, but the issue is how engaged are the fans in the first place if turning up late and leaving early is a regular thing. It all contributes to a soul sucking atmosphere.

[Niall_Quinn]

We're talking about fans now, rather than Wenger's extreme incompetence. Fans are at liberty to come and go as they please. Wenger is not at liberty to take their money and fail to deliver an acceptable level of performance. He's the one who needs to leave early and not come back.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The whole discussion is getting moribund

I think we are at a point with some people on here where they are so fixated on Wenger that they don't want to discuss anything else in football terms other than how shit he is, and see any other discussion as almost exonerating him.

Highbury got the reputation as the Library before anyone had even heard the name Arsene Wenger.

You can both recognise Wenger as a terrible manager and recognise there is a problem with some of our fans totally independent of that.

[Power n Glory]

Probably not, but the issue is how engaged are the fans in the first place if turning up late and leaving early is a regular thing. It all contributes to a soul sucking atmosphere.

It probably does contribute to the atmosphere but I wouldn't be so quick to question how committed or engaged they are. They paid their money and have gone to the game. It would be much easier to just stay home and watch on the TV. But since so many are leaving early and it's something you rarely see in theater, cinema, concerts...it has something to do with the culture and structure of the club. Doesn't it make more sense to start there?

Maybe it's the whole routine of it all. The same 75 minute sub off the bench, the momentum being taken out of the game in the dying minutes along with the predictability of the outcome, well in terms of us not winning the league but finishing in a CL spot. Maybe it's the way the players trudge on down the tunnel for the final whistle and the way the club just see us fans as customers. Overpriced tickets and food but pay no attention to the fans. Who knows. But the fact that it's so common with many, I think it's something the club have to fix.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-top-brass-baffled-anger-9746051

John Cross in another quid pro agreement with Arsenal Football club to Harold McMillan us ungrateful prole scum in return for unlimited access for a soapy tit wank interview with AW at end of the season.

[Marc Overmars]

Arsenal fans have felt like this for the best part of a decade and the top dogs still don't know why there is such discontent. Sums it all up really.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If they are baffled, I'm sure it won't be too difficult to get someone to clear up the mystery.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Sherbert...do you still want us to throw FA cup games so we can Ante up for the league challenge/title?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Sherbert...do you still want us to throw FA cup games so we can Ante up for the league challenge/title?

i don't think it really matters what i want, when i foolishly believed that even with the team we put out against watford our team would actually bother to go and get the three points rather than just assume they are already in the bag yes i thought the fa cup would be an unnecessary distraction.

But frankly looks like the only way to save our season......i have a nasty feeling we will win it and that will be a wenger reprieve.

[Marc Overmars]

We're as good as in the quarter finals of the cup (unless we sink to an all time low), so it's certainly something we should have designs on winning.

It's no saving grace though. We're not challenging for the league so as far as I'm concerned this season is already looking like a failure. Again.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-top-brass-baffled-anger-9746051

John Cross in another quid pro agreement with Arsenal Football club to Harold McMillan us ungrateful prole scum in return for unlimited access for a soapy tit wank interview with AW at end of the season.

An article by a clueless cunt in support of clueless cunts.


And that’s the frustration among Wenger and the board is that if you look at the bigger, overall picture, then the club is in good shape.

The "bigger picture" being, MORE MONEY! SHOOOOOOOW ME THE MONEY Arsene!

Yes of course they are happy with him and perplexed that fans aren't salivating over soaring share prices, increased revenues and gold plated collateral. They can do all this without having to win a damn thing? That's efficiency.

We'll just have to wait these cunts out. Eventually something will happen that will sour their milk and they'll move on to wreck something else.

[Power n Glory]

When Two Vibes Go To War
Tim Stillman
February 2, 2017
Columnists
• 6 arses

I have long suspected that choice is one of Arsene’s great enemies. Squad rotation is not something he has ever shown a particular flair for. I have always thought of him as more of an alchemist than a strategist. Given a low number of options, he is able to forge cohesive teams from scarce materials. His players have let us peer behind the curtain over the years and revealed some fascinating aspects of Wenger’s personality.

Ray Parlour spins a good yarn about Arsene spilling his desert in the club canteen and not noticing until he got back to his table when he began to poke at an empty plate with his fork. He is a man that thinks very deeply and sometimes that can aid indecisiveness. He rarely seems to plan his squad incomings meticulously- see his ongoing confusion as to the type of player he has bought in Granit Xhaka. From the outside it often appears that he buys players without a cogent plan in how to use them.

Podolski was, by Wenger’s own admission, signed as a centre forward. Yet he rarely ever actually played there. Alexis’ first three games in an Arsenal shirt saw him play a central striking role, before he was shifted to the right, then the left, before being given another chance upfront this season. Sometimes he seems to hoard players that he likes and then works out how to use them later. This can be a strength and gives him great flexibility, but sometimes the lack of clarity seems to gild the lily of his squad.

Occasionally, this filters through into his team selections. Arsene places a lot of stock in the human side of management and, again, it is important to articulate that this is probably a great strength. One can only speculate, but it is likely that he gets a response from a lot of his players by treating them well as human beings. It is one of those intangible aspects of his management that attracts opprobrium after bad results, but is never considered a contributory factor to good ones.

That said, I think sometimes his loyalty to individuals spills over and confuses the collective. Gabriel has been performing reasonably well recently, whilst Olivier Giroud has hit a rich vein of goalscoring form. From the outside, it appears that Arsene can feel obligated to reward individuals with games, even if the overall team chemistry suffers as a result. On Saturday, he selected a weakened team against Southampton at St. Mary’s.

Yet the eleven turned in a performance greater than the sum of its parts, because there was an obvious identity, which promotes chemistry. With the likes of Welbeck, Walcott, Rene Adelaide and Chamberlain combining, knitted together by Lucas Perez’s impressive play as a false 9, Arsenal had a very clear personality based on mobility and interchangeability. A good team is a team that is well balanced with a good variety of attributes, but ultimately has a detectable modus operandi.

With Alexis Sanchez playing as a false 9, Arsenal had begun to develop a coherent attacking identity. Flanked by the creative, Rosicky like zip of Iwobi and the penetrative running of Theo Walcott, the Gunners found their most balanced attacking combination in some years. The natural attrition of a gruelling season means rotation is necessary and often enforced. With Walcott and Özil unavailable over Christmas, Olivier Giroud was welcomed in from the cold and scored some vital goals.

I maintain the impression that the Frenchman is best deployed from the bench, but it was understandable that Giroud was going to have to come in for some games. The issue then became that Arsene found it difficult to drop Olivier, even if the team appears to play its best football with a more mobile striker. As such, Arsenal have turned in a number of confused looking, soporific first half displays over the last month.

I think this is because Arsenal’s attacking identity has been muddled again. This is not to hang Olivier Giroud out to dry, you understand. Starting Giroud commits your team to a certain style, but Arsene has seemed reluctant to adopt the tactics that allow the striker to flourish. Only in the final 20 minutes when the situation becomes panicked do the team revert to the sort of service he craves.

Teams that function well do so via a network of symbiotic partnerships. Giroud has a good partnership with Alex Oxlade Chamberlain, who drives to the by-line and also whips crosses in from the touchline. He also has an effective relationship with Lucas Perez, who acts as a very effective foil for the Frenchman. He acts as a kind of second striker to bounce off of Giroud’s clever layoffs and knockdowns- as expertly demonstrated by his wonder strike against Bournemouth. Lucas also takes up good positions in the channels to lash the ball across goal, which is the sort of service Giroud enjoys.

In other words, if you’re going to start Olivier Giroud, you have to commit to his style. That means being direct, putting in crosses and trying to get to the by-line. On Tuesday against Watford, Arsene’s team selection was indecisive. Iwobi and Giroud do not have much of a relationship at all. The Nigerian partners well with mobile front men like Alexis and Welbeck. He is also far more effective from the left, where he is much more comfortable drifting in field and linking play.

Starting Iwobi from the right with Giroud upfront created extra dysfunction in a team that was already forced to operate with a jarring central midfield duo and with a centre half at right back. Playing Giroud whilst the likes of Lucas, Chamberlain and Bellerin sat on the bench just exacerbated the bad chemistry. But it kind of looks like Arsene played Gabriel at right back and Giroud upfront out of a sense of obligation to give them minutes and the team’s approach became scrambled as a result.

This becomes a bigger issue still when you factor in Arsene’s aversion to micro management. The players are left to gather the pieces and form the puzzle themselves. Again, this probably has a lot of invisible benefits that we do not fully realise in the long term. But the manager sometimes makes that job even more difficult for his team when he makes disjointed team selections. There is a certain irony in Wenger making life harder for players he seems to have selected out of a feeling of personal loyalty.

Conte has not done anything groundbreaking at Chelsea. He bought a couple of players with a particular system in mind, he got the buy in of his squad (admittedly, only after a couple of poor early season results) and he has not indulged the players that have not been able to adapt to it. Long time servants such as Mikel, Oscar and Ivanovic have been deemed surplus to requirements, whilst household names like Fabregas and Terry look on from the bench.

That kind of clarity gives players a conviction and belief in the style they are adopting. It provides important future proofing, because the team maintains its belief, even after a bad result. For Arsenal to have any chance of rescuing their feint title hopes at Stamford Bridge on Saturday, they are going to have to have a clear strategy and identity. The manager needs to commit to a certain style.

The team will need complementary partnerships- especially given the forced unfamiliarity of Arsenal’s central midfield; if that means bruising a few egos, so be it. Arsene receives a smorgasbord of critiques throughout any given season, but I pretty sure I am alone in asking him to be a little more stubborn on occasion. But I’m probably not alone in calling for him to be more decisive.

Good read and sums up the disjointed mess we saw.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I agree, sums up Wenger very well, he is above all else loyal to his players and this is usually why in their post-arsenal careers either at other clubs or in retirement they speak well of him (something that was discussed a few weeks ago in regards to Souness criticising Wenger for it, but at the same token Souness probably thought he was a good manager because his players hated him).

I have read a lot about him where he wants to treat his players like adults and leave them to figure out how best to use their skills.

It can work if you have natural leaders in the side and that filters through the squad, but at the moment we don't and it's clearly leading to confusion.

[Globalgunner]

The real problem is that none of these principals....ie board members football writers even Arsene himself is a football fan. Football fans want to see their club do great things. Even fans of Torquay dream of winning their league and the FA cup. Fans dont take pride in fancy stadiums and great account balances. Only profiteers do that. None of the current board have Arsenal blood in their veins...least of all the mustachioed corporate raider whose slimy American hands we fell into. These sleazeballs will be quite happy to see another 13 years like the 13 that have gone before. " 2 FA cups...whats not to like?". While other clubs are winning titles and going into the last 4 of the CL dreaming of the big final. They tell us fans that we are spoilt. Why are we complaining?. What about West Ham and Everton fans?. Do we wish to swap places with them?

Fools just dont get it.

Football writers are mostly just shit stirring scum. Most support other clubs and pray silently that Wenger gets a new 10 year contract. They want him to stay because they too know he couldnt win a CL in 30 years of trying.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The real problem is that none of these principals....ie board members football writers even Arsene himself is a football fan. Football fans want to see their club do great things. Even fans of Torquay dream of winning their league and the FA cup. Fans dont take pride in fancy stadiums and great account balances. Only profiteers do that. None of the current board have Arsenal blood in their veins...least of all the mustachioed corporate raider whose slimy American hands we fell into. These sleazeballs will be quite happy to see another 13 years like the 13 that have gone before. " 2 FA cups...whats not to like?". While other clubs are winning titles and going into the last 4 of the CL dreaming of the big final. They tell us fans that we are spoilt. Why are we complaining?. What about West Ham and Everton fans?. Do we wish to swap places with them?

Fools just dont get it.

Football writers are mostly just shit stirring scum. Most support other clubs and pray silently that Wenger gets a new 10 year contract. They want him to stay because they too know he couldnt win a CL in 30 years of trying.

I'm not 100% convinced that the board are totally satisfied, they are just risk adverse

They believe with Wenger they are guaranteed a minimum outcome of champions league revenue with not exceptional amount of outlay to get it

I think at the same time they know whilst Arsenal are not winning things they are denied the same lucrative deals that may be available to bigger clubs, not only that but articles like that appreciate there is fan dissent even though they think fans should be more appreciative of Wenger....it's desperation because they know if the dissent continues it will have a negative impact with attracting sponsorship.

[Power n Glory]

People shouldn't be questioning the fans when it comes to turning up late or leaving early. I question why people turn up at all when this sort of shit keeps coming out of the Arsenal PR machine.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Shouldn't?

Firstly I'm not the one conflating the two issues, i don't think it's caused by the turgid football and neither do i think it causes the turgid football. Nor do i think it's an issue confined to Arsenal football club

Feel absolutely free not to contribute if you don't like that i have brought it up, you have made your feelings on the matter pretty clear.

Yes it's abundantly clear that John Cross has been employed to do Arsenal PR Spin, however i tend to think it may have the adverse effect that they hoped for. If the season goes belly up, fans have been given the distinct impression that kicking up a fuss will make poor Arsene feel unloved i think it's gone too far for fans to say "aww shucks we didn't mean it". And if he signs an extension (which is clearly what they are pushing for him to do) then we can dispense with any lingering pretence that the manager cares about anything other than self-enrichment.

[Power n Glory]

Shouldn't?

Firstly I'm not the one conflating the two issues, i don't think it's caused by the turgid football and neither do i think it causes the turgid football. Nor do i think it's an issue confined to Arsenal football club

Feel absolutely free not to contribute if you don't like that i have brought it up, you have made your feelings on the matter pretty clear.

Yes it's abundantly clear that John Cross has been employed to do Arsenal PR Spin, however i tend to think it may have the adverse effect that they hoped for. If the season goes belly up, fans have been given the distinct impression that kicking up a fuss will make poor Arsene feel unloved i think it's gone too far for fans to say "aww shucks we didn't mean it". And if he signs an extension (which is clearly what they are pushing for him to do) then we can dispense with any lingering pretence that the manager cares about anything other than self-enrichment.

Whatever. Argue now and do a 180 in a few weeks like you've just done on the whole debate about fans having an effective on revenue. ;)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You again seem to have a problem where you are unable to look at things as a single issue and have to lump them all in together

Its reasonable to suggest that fans don't have the same affect on revenue that they had, with giant corporate deals and tv money that's an unfortunate fact. I've never suggested empty stadiums wouldn't be problematic for the club.

The issue about fans leaving early is again a single issue, I will concede that i don't agree with Moh that it had any bearing on our performance against Watford and therefore didn't seem particularly relevant to mention at the time. But i'm not going to pretend that i've never observed it when I constantly have and long before the frustration with Wenger grew (unless you are saying a majority of fans wanted Wenger out in 2007?)

A lot of my comments are openly ruminating, I have questioned whether a massive fan protest would affect the board's decision making (and actually i think i was probably wrong about that) and I have questioned whether the fans themselves would be engaged enough to begin a mass protest to begin with (and my point above stipulates that this kind of needling of the fans might well provoke such a situation that might not arise otherwise).

I feel with you that there is a resentment when anyone disagrees with you, I'm an argumentative individual for sure but i think you're being a bit precious when you seem to think i'm doing it with the intention of Trolling you.

I remember the main point of disagreement we had some time ago where I said getting rid of Wenger wouldn't necessarily reset things automatically and the board are just a big a part of the problem, that they have gone to such pains to protect their man rather gives credence to that view. It's not an argument for keeping Wenger, every time i hear even the snifter of a rumour of him signing a two year extension i let out a rueful sigh because i desperately want him gone and I simply cannot understand the rational of anyone who seems satisfied with how things are going.

[Power n Glory]

Its reasonable to suggest that fans don't have the same affect on revenue that they had, with giant corporate deals and tv money that's an unfortunate fact. I've never suggested empty stadiums wouldn't be problematic for the club.

Why was there a discussion on revenue in the first place? Because the idea was that Wenger may walk if he sees he's harming the club financially and can't take it any further. So why stretch the point any further to argue against that?

When you come back and make the following statement after watching you argue with Letters over sponsorship revenue vs fan attendance as if they're not linked...it's a :rolleyes: moment.


fan dissent even though they think fans should be more appreciative of Wenger....it's desperation because they know if the dissent continues it will have a negative impact with attracting sponsorship.

Argumentative....yep. As said, after stretching an argument, you've just done a 180 and linked sponsorship deals back to the fans.

As for the fans leaving early talk....I don't care. Similar to how we got into the discussion about the difference between the opinions of fans online compared to the Emirates (see how that links), I'm not going to jump to conclusions on why people are leaving. I tend to look at what's going on at the club, question that and then ask why people aren't staying away if unsatisfied.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Why was there a discussion on revenue in the first place? Because the idea was that Wenger may walk if he sees he's harming the club financially and can't take it any further. So why stretch the point any further to argue against that?

When you come back and make the following statement after watching you argue with Letters over sponsorship revenue vs fan attendance as if they're not linked...it's a :rolleyes: moment.



Argumentative....yep. As said, after stretching an argument, you've just done a 180 and linked sponsorship deals back to the fans.

As for the fans leaving early talk....I don't care. Similar to how we got into the discussion about the difference between the opinions of fans online compared to the Emirates (see how that links), I'm not going to jump to conclusions on why people are leaving. I tend to look at what's going on at the club, question that and then ask why people aren't staying away if unsatisfied.

Again this solipsist attitude, whether you care or not is irrelevant my observations aren't always directed at you.

Fine you don't care about that, i had stopped talking about it in regards to you....and in fact only did so again when you rather arrogantly suggested that people shouldn't discuss the matter (who the hell are you to tell people what they should or should not be talking about).

Right so what happens when a sponsor does a deal with Arsenal football club, is it not kind of common that this sponsor then appears on the advertising hoardings and would it not discourage sponsors if their company is appearing on billboards in a stadium which is either half empty or full of disgruntled fans which is clearly visible when our games appear on tv.

I would see your point if this was a new point i'd made, but have made it quite a few times. You can call it doing a 180 if you like but only because i get the impression you can only look at things as one single issue, rather than several myriad issues. Im not arguing that fans protesting will have no effect any more because i now believe i was wrong about that.....

This is not contradictory to saying the fans direct impact on revenue is not what it was.

But actually (if you are referring to the point i made earlier) i also made the point that the board might not be 100% happy because Wenger's lack of on field success means they are missing out on even more lucrative sponsorship deals.....It was making the point that the board will care if it hurts their wallets.

In regards to the fan's attitude, i am referring to the observations of Tim Stillman and my own personal observations, it's not all encompassing....i haven't in anyway suggested that it's solid fact. In fact i produced it in the first place as a hypothesis, that you are dismissive of it is of no concern to me that you seem fit to tell me that i shouldn't mention it in the first place i am laughably contemptuous of.

[LDG]

Good read and sums up the disjointed mess we saw.

I was going to post that up.

Stillman is excellent. Great read....though he could have saved the eloquence and actually said "Wenger sees a good player, but he hasn't got a fucking clue unless he's forced into it"

It's a long held view by a few on here that by chance he sometimes stumbles upon a cohesive team because of circumstances beyond his control. And when that balance is disrupted (see Santi getting injured), he doesn't know how to replace it with different players.

Also, there's that stubborn / misplaced faith in a bunch of players that just don't cut it, regardless of their record. Giroud is a great player IMO, but if you want to play him, you have to play his way. You can't tippy tappy with him. Wenger just doesn't seem to get this.....

Oh well. Been done to death I guess.

[Power n Glory]

I was going to post that up.

Stillman is excellent. Great read....though he could have saved the eloquence and actually said "Wenger sees a good player, but he hasn't got a fucking clue unless he's forced into it"

It's a long held view by a few on here that by chance he sometimes stumbles upon a cohesive team because of circumstances beyond his control. And when that balance is disrupted (see Santi getting injured), he doesn't know how to replace it with different players.

Also, there's that stubborn / misplaced faith in a bunch of players that just don't cut it, regardless of their record. Giroud is a great player IMO, but if you want to play him, you have to play his way. You can't tippy tappy with him. Wenger just doesn't seem to get this.....

Oh well. Been done to death I guess.

I've got a lot of time for Stillman. Best thing on Arseblog to be honest. It's worth checking out the Arsenal Vision Podcast. Gooner Ramble isn't bad either. A guy named Clive usually talks on there but featured on Arsenal Vision Podcast this week in place of Tim. Some good debates and observations about how we play.

If rotation is a problem for Wenger, more signings and more money being made available to him is pretty pointless. But around and around we go.

[Power n Glory]

Right so what happens when a sponsor does a deal with Arsenal football club, is it not kind of common that this sponsor then appears on the advertising hoardings and would it not discourage sponsors if their company is appearing on billboards in a stadium which is either half empty or full of disgruntled fans which is clearly visible when our games appear on tv.

I would see your point if this was a new point i'd made, but have made it quite a few times. You can call it doing a 180 if you like but only because i get the impression you can only look at things as one single issue, rather than several myriad issues. Im not arguing that fans protesting will have no effect any more because i now believe i was wrong about that.....

This is not contradictory to saying the fans direct impact on revenue is not what it was.


Where did you make that argument before?

Just to clear this up.

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3875&page=8

Letters


The point PnG making about Wenger leaving if people stop going en masse. I agree that is the only way to affect change but I see the reason slightly differently. Wenger cares about success. I can't be bothered debating that, he may take a little too much pride in top 4 but of course he wants to do better, why would any manager at that level not want to be winning trophies? The board though...so long as the money keeps rolling in they couldn't give a monkeys so IMO the only way to get them to change anything is to cut off the source of the money which is us, ultimately. The problem is a lot of the real fans have already walked away or been priced out but there's a very long queue of tourists ready and willing to take their place.

Herb

Are you honestly arguing that we are the main source of the money?

Corporate sponsorship and TV deals are the main part of the money, so in that sense the only fans that can affect the outcome are those fans who watch from home and don't buy the subscription packages.....whilst i agree it wouldn't look good for a half empty stadium week in, week out it won't affect the club financially whatsoever.

Me


The fans are still the main source of income. It's not the largest source but if the fanbase starts to shrink, so does that corporate sponsorship pocket money. We’re able to squeeze more money out of these sponsors because we have the figures to back up a loyal fanbase that attend games week in week out and buy the merchandise. It’s why we’re trying to expand that following over in Asia and America. If the fans start to fall away, sponsors won’t be so eager to renew a deal under the same terms and may even decrease what they spend on us or walk away.

As for the TV money, clubs can’t be foolish and bet the house on that money being sustainable. Neglect your core fans, along with the stadium and we could end up like Serie A. Viewing figures have been down here in the UK and overseas. UEFA have also admitted that selling all the rights to BT Sports for the CL was a mistake. When those deals are up for a renewal, what’s on offer might not be so lucrative. The Board are smart enough to know that can't build a house on sand and expect it to stand the test of time.

There was a clear reason why sponsorship money was being discussed. To affect Wenger's position as manager. Maybe you're just being argumentative and lose track of what's being discussed. Can you now see the contradiction?

It's funny how you've even tried to hijack my original point about sponsors walking away if the fans start walking. :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

whilst i agree it wouldn't look good for a half empty stadium week in, week out it won't affect the club financially whatsoever.


Well i accept that was a rather ridiculous statement to make.

But of course no-one has ever other than me ever got fed up and frustrated and thought what's the point it's not going to make any difference :haha:

But if it helps to say it a third time, I admitted i was wrong in this belief (which basically was it doesn't matter what the fans do) and in this particular instance the argument was made more out of petulance.

However i did backtrack on that as i recall as the post went on....meh it's a football forum board

But to be clear i have made the argument about sponsorship money before (actually long before the statement you have tried to present to me) your contention that I've hijacked your point again rather goes back to your solipsism where somehow because you think you've made a point it is only you that has ever thought this.

Maybe you want to look at everything i've posted on here in the last 12 months to see if i'm lying or not, but hijacking your point really?....first of all i didn't introduce it like it hadn't been discussed before because i know it has.

[Power n Glory]

Whatever. :good:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Whatever. :good:

Ok and just to clarify can we just go ahead and assume that i'm going to ignore you from now on whenever you tell me what i should and should not be discussing something you yourself have conveniently ignored when i've called you out on it.

So you don't get your pink knickers in a twist, i'll make sure i don't directly reply to you so you don't suffer a meltdown and assume i've dared disagree with you

Equally i won't try and dissuade you of your belief that i'm stealing your thoughts/ideas :lol:

[Power n Glory]

Back to being petulant...really? ;)

You see the contradiction in what you posted though, right?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Back to being petulant...really? ;)

You see the contradiction in what you posted though, right?

It's only contradictory if i'm trying to make both points simultaneously, if i am saying to you Now that nothing fans do will make a difference and that sponsors getting cold feet which would be caused by fan reaction would make a difference than it's clearly contradictory. But it's not what i am saying.

Again for a fourth time.....I've admitted i was wrong to say that....you've clearly read that part of my last message otherwise you wouldn't have extracted an admission of petulence from it.

How far fans who are pretty meek by comparison to that of other clubs are willing to go to bring that situation about there is some doubt over, and i do stick with that and i hope i'm wrong.

Anything else about fan behaviour i'm not going to discuss with you because we've made clear that you aren't interested in it, of course i will continue to mention it on here because despite your protestation that it shouldn't be discussed (the same way you got upset when i started criticising religion and i will continue to do so on non-arsenal related topics).

And genuinely this is where if i do get irritated the only reason for it, i'll tell people they are wrong if i think they are wrong so i have no possible reason to object to it myself however what i do find grating (and i'm sorry to say you are the only one on here who does it) is you somehow get the hump that i'm discussing something in the first place. It's patently absurd.

There have been times where not even directly replying to you i've followed up on something you've said, you've got uppity about it and even when it's been clearly explained that i wasn't arguing with you....instead of just accepting that you question my reasoning for posting in the first place.

[Power n Glory]

Boohoo. Grow a pair.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Boohoo. Grow a pair.

:lol: Pot calling the kettle black rather given how you react to me

Don't get me wrong, whether you think I should discuss something or not has no bearing on what I will talk about ....its just like I say grating, as if who the fuck does this guy think he is.

Talking on the politics thread the other day you accused NQ of being off his rocker and I couldn't be bothered at the time to start an argument but I thought look whose talking.

If you have any mates and you tell them what they should be saying or not they'd likely tell you to fuck off, so I'm guessing you don't act that way off the internet.

[Power n Glory]

Jesus Christ, Herb! :lol: Are you really taking this to heart? Get over it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Jesus Christ, Herb! :lol: Are you really taking this to heart? Get over it.

No I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy given how precious you get if you think I'm getting at you

It just seems bizarre to me that you get into such a flap even over something inoccuous I say and then give it the old lighten up man routine.

I couldn't take it to heart because you are intangible to me, I don't know who you are and am not that interested anymore than you are I would imagine in me.

This place is a diversion nothing more as I enjoy debate. I just enjoy it more when I don't have to skip around someone trying to constantly narrow the parameters of said debate.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But I am too verbose for my own good, I feel I could have avoided this all with a simple if you don't like it go fuck your self

[Power n Glory]

You found them. :lol: Good man!

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

i don't think it really matters what i want, when i foolishly believed that even with the team we put out against watford our team would actually bother to go and get the three points rather than just assume they are already in the bag yes i thought the fa cup would be an unnecessary distraction.

But frankly looks like the only way to save our season......i have a nasty feeling we will win it and that will be a wenger reprieve.

That is noble of you. Though that probably sounds sarcastic I mean it. I too, thought the team put out against Watford should have been more than enough to beat Watford but of course no team selected that doesn't apply themselves correctly is going to just turn up and win. I think the continual insistence that Wenger's team selection was horrible and the focus on it almost lets Wenger off the hook and deflects from the fact he is responsible for several things working...or not working as it were, simultaneously.

I also said we would challenge for most of the season at the start of it and that hitherto is debatable.

[Power n Glory]

That is noble of you. Though that probably sounds sarcastic I mean it. I too, thought the team put out against Watford should have been more than enough to beat Watford but of course no team selected that doesn't apply themselves correctly is going to just turn up and win. I think the continual insistence that Wenger's team selection was horrible and the focus on it almost lets Wenger off the hook and deflects from the fact he is responsible for several things working...or not working as it were, simultaneously.

I also said we would challenge for most of the season at the start of it and that hitherto is debatable.

You have a point. It's not as if we haven't seen Wenger play a similar line up. Last season and the season before that we'd see something similar. But I think more people are starting to see how unbalanced we are in midfield and up front when Giroud plays. But saying that, it wasn't so bad that we should have lost that game. The players need to show up and Wenger has to do more to prepare them.