Match Reaction Chelsea Away PL 2016-17 season

[Munchies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5q4ZbyvdkY

Wenger has to go TONIGHT

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Tonight?

Sorry is it May 2019

[Niall_Quinn]

Tonight?

Sorry is it May 2019

On a less predictable note, how did your driving lesson go? Can you give us blow by blow details to make it worth us turning up today?

[RomfordPele]

Sigh.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZbtAFq7dP8

[Marc Overmars]

It doesn't get anymore predictable than that guys, we all knew it was coming.

Bit of dodgy refereeing to set them on their way, then compounded by yet another lily livered and ramshackle performance.

Every. Single. Season.

We may as well kiss goodbye to Alexis and Ozil.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

On a less predictable note, how did your driving lesson go? Can you give us blow by blow details to make it worth us turning up today?

YOU REMEMBERED!!!

It was surreal because in such a situation ordinarily I'd be itching to know the score, but just didn't care

Almost killed a motorcyclist, as much as I could have lived with that probably would have been looked at unfavourably (I exaggerate of course I didn't see him when exiting a junction and had to brake sharply was in actuality no where near him)

Took a short cut back to work....hey ho that's the story in full.

[Niall_Quinn]

It doesn't get anymore predictable than that guys, we all knew it was coming.

Bit of dodgy refereeing to set them on their way, then compounded by yet another lily livered and ramshackle performance.

Every. Single. Season.

We may as well kiss goodbye to Alexis and Ozil.

We don't really need Ozil and Alexis anyway. Any player will do. Endless, pointless passing. Sideways. Backwards. Give the ball away. Anyone could do that.

[RomfordPele]

It doesn't get anymore predictable than that guys, we all knew it was coming.

Bit of dodgy refereeing to set them on their way, then compounded by yet another lily livered and ramshackle performance.

Every. Single. Season.

We may as well kiss goodbye to Alexis and Ozil.

I don't think we will miss Ozil as much as people think. He's a passenger in too many games.

Alexis would be a massive loss and I think more likely to leave.

[Penguin]

That Hazard goal looks more and more ridiculous every time I see it. Someone needs to send this lot to the academy to learn the basics. And give a slap around the head to teach them common sense.

Wenger needs to be sent to a care home. He's done.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We may as well kiss goodbye to Alexis and Ozil.

I don't want to kiss Ozil, I don't know where he's been....well I have a fairly good idea....

[Niall_Quinn]

YOU REMEMBERED!!!

It was surreal because in such a situation ordinarily I'd be itching to know the score, but just didn't care

Almost killed a motorcyclist, as much as I could have lived with that probably would have been looked at unfavourably (I exaggerate of course I didn't see him when exiting a junction and had to brake sharply was in actuality no where near him)

Took a short cut back to work....hey ho that's the story in full.

And yet, compared to what I have just witnessed, your story is compelling and interesting.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And yet, compared to what I have just witnessed, your story is compelling and interesting.

And without watching the highlights I instantly believe you

[Niall_Quinn]

Let's wait until we see the possession stats to judge this. We still might have won the possession trophy.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Start with the positives..... Fab didn't celebrate his goal, hoooooray!!!!

Now as for the rest of the match... AW never wanted to win the game and it obviously cascaded down. I mean how else do we look at it, we are 9 points behind the only team in front of us and you have your 2 leading goal threats fit and you choose to start none of them. As usual the greatest manager we've ever had only set his team up "not to lose"- the mentality that has destroyed this club and made us the biggest joke in competitive football.

It useless complaining or even analysing the difference the subs made when we "appeared" to compete. All I kept thinking about while watching the tragedy was when did we turn this pussy..... It's unbelievably nauseating!

[RomfordPele]

We need to have a serious look at our midfield in the close season.

Coquelin should only ever have been a stopgap solution, not a permanent fixture in the engine room.

Not convinced by the alternatives either.

Elneny, xhaka, Ramsey, iwobi - none of them are ever going to dominate against the big boys. Flat track bullies all of them.

[dostoy]

I have not seen one single second of todays match.

I thought before the match that Arsenal would need to score 3 just to get a draw.

I said on here the other day that I will not be an Arsenal fan next season, well that started just after the Watford match.

I genuinely don't care now, not that I have cared very much for a long time.

Arsenal are absolutely pathetic and absolutely predictable.

[Globalgunner]

We need to have a serious look at our midfield in the close season.

Coquelin should only ever have been a stopgap solution, not a permanent fixture in the engine room.

Not convinced by the alternatives either.

Elneny, xhaka, Ramsey, iwobi - none of them are ever going to dominate against the big boys. Flat track bullies all of them.

Well. We almost bought Kante. Just as we almost bought every Ballon D`Or winner of the last 20 years

[Niall_Quinn]

Come on then, it's time for the Wenger Excuses Sweepstake.

I'm going with, "The first goal was vital, it is a foul. After that we were chasing the game and got caught on the break. But we showed great spirit and were unlucky."

[Marc Overmars]

That Hazard goal looks more and more ridiculous every time I see it. Someone needs to send this lot to the academy to learn the basics. And give a slap around the head to teach them common sense.

Wenger needs to be sent to a care home. He's done.

It's not even like Hazard had to use his undoubted ability. A shit player like Capoue did exactly the same on Tuesday.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's not even like Hazard had to use his undoubted ability. A shit player like Capoue did exactly the same on Tuesday.

Coincidence. Nothing in it. Can safely be ignored.

[Maestro]

Come on then, it's time for the Wenger Excuses Sweepstake.

I'm going with, "The first goal was vital, it is a foul. After that we were chasing the game and got caught on the break. But we showed great spirit and were unlucky."

That right there should be a thread on its own. For today's sweepstake I'll go with your prediction above.

[Power n Glory]

We need to have a serious look at our midfield in the close season.

Coquelin should only ever have been a stopgap solution, not a permanent fixture in the engine room.

Not convinced by the alternatives either.

Elneny, xhaka, Ramsey, iwobi - none of them are ever going to dominate against the big boys. Flat track bullies all of them.

It doesn't really matter who we buy. The manager is clueless. I seriously doubt we studied how Chelsea play before the game and the players looked clueless.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think we will miss Ozil as much as people think. He's a passenger in too many games.

Alexis would be a massive loss and I think more likely to leave.

Ozil has been riding as passenger for a long time now.

[Maestro]

Ozil has been riding as passenger for a long time now.

He's been shit in my opinion since before his mid season winter break. Played for a couple of months and that was it, should have been dropped a long time ago.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think the foul on Bellerin set the tone for the rest of the game

And that's not to excuse us in fact the opposite, it was a clear foul and the goal shouldn't have stood. But you accept it and move on, we know that the Arsenal players don't do that they buy into the grievance and it plays on their mind and it's like they give up and think well it doesn't matter because we can't catch a break.

That's how Wenger will look at it, the first goal was illegitimate so nothing that happened after that matters.

[Niall_Quinn]

He's mentally left the club, all that remains is his physical departure which will come in the summer. Shame, because we have some very good players here and a half competent manager could really do something with this bunch. One by one though these players drift into one of two camps - that guys who have found a comfy seat and are prepared to take the money and settle for the same crap every year, and the players who are seeing out a contract with a view to moving on. I don't think we have any real Arsenal men here any more.

[Master Splinter]

Ozil has been riding as passenger for a long time now.

Mesut Fraudzil.

Fraudzut Ozil.

The guy has had half the season off in bed too.

Flog him to China.

Cech, Ozil and Giroud are huge detriments to this team. Ramsey as well, but he's often injured and is only first choice because the rest of our midfield is dead.

As ever, the only hope for another good but futile winning run is for the right players to be out and for Wenger to stumble upon a functioning XI.

[RomfordPele]

I think the foul on Bellerin set the tone for the rest of the game

And that's not to excuse us in fact the opposite, it was a clear foul and the goal shouldn't have stood. But you accept it and move on, we know that the Arsenal players don't do that they buy into the grievance and it plays on their mind and it's like they give up and think well it doesn't matter because we can't catch a break.

That's how Wenger will look at it, the first goal was illegitimate so nothing that happened after that matters.

I agree, but I don't get how sky can show slow-mo pictures of bellerin getting knocked out by alonso's forearm and still not even remotely concede that it might have been a foul. The idea that bellerin "wasn't strong enough" when he's been physically rendered UNCONSCIOUS by an opponent's arm doesn't strike them as inconsistent reporting?

Totally agree that our response wasn't good enough, but the bias and post rationalisation of the media really rankles - far more than the decision itself actually.

[LDG]

Genuinely shocked that our season is over in the same way we have seen year after year.

Couldn't have seen it coming. Not like us at all.

[Power n Glory]

He's been shit in my opinion since before his mid season winter break. Played for a couple of months and that was it, should have been dropped a long time ago.

Hard to pinpoint what he actually does for the team as a number 10. If the manager happens to walk this season, first priority has to be to abandon this number 10 role. No midfielder should be allowed a free ride from that area.

[Marc Overmars]

I think the foul on Bellerin set the tone for the rest of the game

And that's not to excuse us in fact the opposite, it was a clear foul and the goal shouldn't have stood. But you accept it and move on, we know that the Arsenal players don't do that they buy into the grievance and it plays on their mind and it's like they give up and think well it doesn't matter because we can't catch a break.

That's how Wenger will look at it, the first goal was illegitimate so nothing that happened after that matters.

Of course. That's because the maturity to challenge for the title is not there. Mentality wise they're completely bi-polar.

[Niall_Quinn]

Genuinely shocked that our season is over in the same way we have seen year after year.

Couldn't have seen it coming. Not like us at all.

I'm even more shocked at our season being over in Feb 2018. And Feb 2019. And 2020. It's all so random.

[Power n Glory]

Mesut Fraudzil.

Fraudzut Ozil.

The guy has had half the season off in bed too.

Flog him to China.

Cech, Ozil and Giroud are huge detriments to this team. Ramsey as well, but he's often injured and is only first choice because the rest of our midfield is dead.

As ever, the only hope for another good but futile winning run is for the right players to be out and for Wenger to stumble upon a functioning XI.

Ozil - The Houdini of Arsenal. Another fine showcase of his disappearing act.

Cech has been shit for us this season. Another reason why we need Wenger out asap because it will take him an age to identify a superior keeper once is finished. He'll play him past his sell by date.

[Master Splinter]

Ozil - The Houdini of Arsenal. Another fine showcase of his disappearing act.

Cech has been shit for us this season. Another reason why we need Wenger out asap because it will take him an age to identify a superior keeper once is finished. He'll play him past his sell by date.

He'll never drop big-money signings or supposed 'elite' players no matter how poor their form and their negative effect on the flow of the game.

Only Xhaka is exempt from this rule. Poor Granit, there's a Xhaka rule for everything.

[Power n Glory]

He'll never drop big-money signings or supposed 'elite' players no matter how poor their form and their negative effect on the flow of the game.

Only Xhaka is exempt from this rule. Poor Granit, there's a Xhaka rule for everything.

I have my theory on Xhaka. I think that's one of our StatDNA signings.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/oct/17/arsenal-place-trust-arsene-wenger-army-statdna-data-analysts

After seeing him up close, I don't think Wenger quite fancies him. But saying that, Perez didn't come cheap either.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I agree, but I don't get how sky can show slow-mo pictures of bellerin getting knocked out by alonso's forearm and still not even remotely concede that it might have been a foul. The idea that bellerin "wasn't strong enough" when he's been physically rendered UNCONSCIOUS by an opponent's arm doesn't strike them as inconsistent reporting?

Totally agree that our response wasn't good enough, but the bias and post rationalisation of the media really rankles - far more than the decision itself actually.

Whilst I agree with you they are two seperate issues

Chelsea wank fest at the moment, so they can do no wrong

What upsets me is that we capitulated to a team I think is very beatable

[selassie]

From the little i saw of the game it seemed like a typical Arsenal performance away at Chelsea, who would have thought that eh?

What did Wenger say in post match interview? First goal was illegal, we lacked maturity and a little bit of sharpness? The players are tired? We play a little bit with the handbrake on?

[Munchies]

Ty's hat getting nicked by a Chelsea fan

vid
https://twitter.com/Cjukes26/status/827899152487108608

:haha: :haha: :haha:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

After seeing him up close, I don't think Wenger quite fancies him.

He seemed to fancy Yaya Sanogo for long enough

Ramsey and Giroud aside, maybe he gets his priapisms for chocolate boys

[Marc Overmars]

Ty's hat getting nicked by a Chelsea fan

vid
https://twitter.com/Cjukes26/status/827899152487108608

:haha: :haha: :haha:

He looks like a little kid being taken away. :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He looks like a little kid being taken away. :lol:

I don't have the patience to sit through his cretinous prattling myself, defends Wenger again I take it?

[Power n Glory]

From the little i saw of the game it seemed like a typical Arsenal performance away at Chelsea, who would have thought that eh?

What did Wenger say in post match interview? First goal was illegal, we lacked maturity and a little bit of sharpness? The players are tired? We play a little bit with the handbrake on?

He looked downbeat as usual. Not clinical enough, first goal was a foul....the normal stuff. I don't think the first goal was a foul. For me, when a player has to make a standing jump vs someone that's making a running jump, as Henry said, the momentum just follows through. If Alonso had given him the stiff arm in an attempt to block Bellerin, foul. But enough of that. Even if the foul was called we'd have conceded in a similar fashion because of the way they were countering and Wenger set up up to play high up the pitch with our wingbacks further up for width. It may have worked in the first game but didn't work today and we found that out. Scoreline could have been a lot worse.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ty's such an idiot. Why worry about a hat once it has been touched by a chav? It's not as if you can ever wear it again.

[RomfordPele]

Hard to pinpoint what he actually does for the team as a number 10. If the manager happens to walk this season, first priority has to be to abandon this number 10 role. No midfielder should be allowed a free ride from that area.

You have to be consistently dominating and changing big, big games to be allowed the luxury of a free role. And you need monster players around you in midfield to make it work. Neither is the case for Ozil in this Arsenal team.

We would have been much better off re-signing Fabregas that year, I think. It would have given our midfield more balance. But hey, arsene knows best, right?

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

He looks like a little kid being taken away. :lol:

Only he's actually bald on top. Benjamin Button....

[Munchies]

https://youtu.be/4aK_JNxvHRM

[Niall_Quinn]

Robbie is rapidly becoming part of the problem too, with his bullshit clickbait headlines that bear no resemblance to what's actually said in the videos.

If you see a headline, "Gutless Alexis Didn't Turn Up Today", what would you naturally think the focus of the video is? But the guy being interviewed didn't say that at all. Bit more honesty please Robbie. Got enough bullshit associated with this club already.

[Munchies]

Robbie is rapidly becoming part of the problem too, with his bullshit clickbait headlines that bear no resemblance to what's actually said in the videos.

If you see a headline, "Gutless Alexis Didn't Turn Up Today", what would you naturally think the focus of the video is? But the guy being interviewed didn't say that at all. Bit more honesty please Robbie. Got enough bullshit associated with this club already.

That's what I thought on the same vid! I was like, oh dear....this guy is actually speaking sense lol

[Munchies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkV4G2_ll2s

[Power n Glory]

You have to be consistently dominating and changing big, big games to be allowed the luxury of a free role. And you need monster players around you in midfield to make it work. Neither is the case for Ozil in this Arsenal team.

We would have been much better off re-signing Fabregas that year, I think. It would have given our midfield more balance. But hey, arsene knows best, right?

It doesn't take a lot to take him out the game. I've said the same about Cesc and been slaughtered but I've seen him play with less talent and still dominate.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Robbie is rapidly becoming part of the problem too, with his bullshit clickbait headlines that bear no resemblance to what's actually said in the videos.

If you see a headline, "Gutless Alexis Didn't Turn Up Today", what would you naturally think the focus of the video is? But the guy being interviewed didn't say that at all. Bit more honesty please Robbie. Got enough bullshit associated with this club already.

Part of the problem

I'd agree maybe if Wenger and the board didn't live in an impenetrable bubble

The whole thing he does is to be an agent provocateur, that's why Ty and Claude are often interviewed at the same time or in the vicinity of each other.

Of course it's click bait, let's be honest he's probably looking for fans of other clubs to watch the videos for the entertainment value.

[RomfordPele]

It doesn't take a lot to take him out the game. I've said the same about Cesc and been slaughtered but I've seen him play with less talent and still dominate.

I think on his day, and with the right set up, Ozil is possibly the better playmaker, which is why people react. But Fabregas would have been a better fit and offered more grit and leadership when things are tough. Like today.

Turning our nose up at him is still a decision that baffles me to be honest. We are constantly in thrall to wenger's fragile ego at this club.

[Munchies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a45HNZdn55s

[selassie]

He looked downbeat as usual. Not clinical enough, first goal was a foul....the normal stuff. I don't think the first goal was a foul. For me, when a player has to make a standing jump vs someone that's making a running jump, as Henry said, the momentum just follows through. If Alonso had given him the stiff arm in an attempt to block Bellerin, foul. But enough of that. Even if the foul was called we'd have conceded in a similar fashion because of the way they were countering and Wenger set up up to play high up the pitch with our wingbacks further up for width. It may have worked in the first game but didn't work today and we found that out. Scoreline could have been a lot worse.

I can't even watch his post match interviews anymore after a defeat.

Yeah it was like watching a replay of last season's game minus the sending offs, it's all so predictable.

[selassie]

You have to be consistently dominating and changing big, big games to be allowed the luxury of a free role. And you need monster players around you in midfield to make it work. Neither is the case for Ozil in this Arsenal team.

We would have been much better off re-signing Fabregas that year, I think. It would have given our midfield more balance. But hey, arsene knows best, right?

I agree, especially the bit on re-signing Fabregas instead of him.

Ozil is definitely a luxury player and his performances in the big games since he's joined us have on the whole been abysmal. He's our record signing and many are discussing whether he should start in the big games or in some cases be pushed out wide. We paid 43million for someone who should be excused from putting in a shift in the big games?! WTF?!!!

I honestly don't care if he goes at the end of the season. Of course Wenger needs to go but I'm not against the contract rebels going if it means we fetch good money for a new man to come in and rebuild.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a45HNZdn55s

Blud = 40
Fam = 15

[Chippy]

We don't really need Ozil and Alexis anyway. Any player will do. Endless, pointless passing. Sideways. Backwards. Give the ball away. Anyone could do that.

Both are sulky cunts. Get money for them and give it to the new manager. Fuck off as well Coquelin, he is a Championship player. God we are in the shite :(

[Munchies]

Wenger confirmed that he's been offered a 2 year deal by the club

https://twitter.com/SquawkaNews/status/827978535201419265

Piss off :lol: , surely he won't sign it if we win fuck all this year?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkV4G2_ll2s

Lost interest in what he had to say after he claimed Ospina was a decent keeper

[RomfordPele]

Wenger confirmed that he's been offered a 2 year deal by the club

https://twitter.com/SquawkaNews/status/827978535201419265

Piss off :lol: , surely he won't sign it if we win fuck all this year?

Top 4 and/or the FA cup and he'll sign. If we finish 5th or 6th maybe, just maybe, his pride will kick in and he'll step aside.

But even then he would probably take a board position, recruit his own successor and be the de facto boss anyway.

Either way, it's pretty shit.

[Bumble]

As I am sure many have said before and will say again... the game today had a massive sense of deja vu about it. We had enough good chances to get something from the game and we still didn't play that well. I think there is a reason that Coquelin was on loan at Charlton before we became desperate. He is just not dominant enough. Mustafi don't think he is the answer to play alongside Kos. Good job Liverpool are imploding as well otherwise our holy grail of top 4 finishes could actually be in danger.

[GP]

Wenger press conference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kswm6a2Df1Q

[Power n Glory]

As I am sure many have said before and will say again... the game today had a massive sense of deja vu about it. We had enough good chances to get something from the game and we still didn't play that well. I think there is a reason that Coquelin was on loan at Charlton before we became desperate. He is just not dominant enough. Mustafi don't think he is the answer to play alongside Kos. Good job Liverpool are imploding as well otherwise our holy grail of top 4 finishes could actually be in danger.

Kos can't be let off the hook that easily. He did exactly what Mustafi did against Watford when a player waltzed through our midfield. He just backed off. No idea what either CB were doing for the first goal either. How has Bellerin been drawn so far in that he's having to defend a header against Costa that comes off the bar and then up again against Alonso? A shambles. Kos head always drops after a goal. Always. Never says a word, it just drops. That's why partnerships tend not to work well with him. If you're not big on communication things can get chaotic.

[Niall_Quinn]

Top 4 and/or the FA cup and he'll sign. If we finish 5th or 6th maybe, just maybe, his pride will kick in and he'll step aside.

But even then he would probably take a board position, recruit his own successor and be the de facto boss anyway.

Either way, it's pretty shit.

That's the sad reality. Even if he steps down as manager there's every chance he'll move upstairs and continue to crash the car from the back seat.

[GP]

Turns out Alonso literally got away with murder.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1382767/Marcos-Alonso-wheel-Madrid-car-crash-killed-woman-passenger.html

[Xhaka Can’t]

Blud = 40
Fam = 15

Thanks. I ducked out after the 2nd Blud.

[Özim]

Another predictable loss, Wenger teams now never have the stomach for the fight, even Chelsea fans want him to stay and who can blame them, it's a guaranteed 3 points every season.

Surely the most dull, predictable, boring manager around, with Wenger around one thing you can guarantee, nothing ever changes, knew the result before the match started, waste of time watching these days, better off doing something constructive or even watching paint dry than watching us.

[Marc Overmars]

Top 4 and/or the FA cup and he'll sign. If we finish 5th or 6th maybe, just maybe, his pride will kick in and he'll step aside.

But even then he would probably take a board position, recruit his own successor and be the de facto boss anyway.

Either way, it's pretty shit.

I don't think he'll sign if by the end of the season opinion of him has soured to the point where he is receiving dogs abuse at every game, much like it was last season, the only difference this time being is that he doesn't have another year to run.

[Globalgunner]

I am 100% sure the reason he hasnt signed is the same reason Ozil and Sanchez have not signed. Neither player is prepared to waste another 2 years of a career with a ne`erdowell as a manager. Sanchez will surely walk. Ozil may stay ..If we make it worth his while. If Wenger signs again we are doomed. No other top player will want to come here.

[AFC Leveller]

Wenger always leave it late to renew anyway so there is nothing going on. Surely a man of his knowledge and experience realises its time to go. Yes he is on good money and has a dream job but its time he left and gave the chance to another manager.

A lot of people say we'll struggle like Man ure did but they are different to us. They have been winning titles for 30 odd years while we have 2 cups to show for in 13 years. You also see how Chelsea went from a disastrous season and losing their most successful manager to winning the title the following season. We just need the right manager.

[AFC Leveller]

I have my theory on Xhaka. I think that's one of our StatDNA signings.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/oct/17/arsenal-place-trust-arsene-wenger-army-statdna-data-analysts

After seeing him up close, I don't think Wenger quite fancies him. But saying that, Perez didn't come cheap either.

Turns out N_Q is right when he
says "computer says no" regarding substitutions and player injuries.

[Marc Overmars]

I am 100% sure the reason he hasnt signed is the same reason Ozil and Sanchez have not signed. Neither player is prepared to waste another 2 years of a career with a ne`erdowell as a manager. Sanchez will surely walk. Ozil may stay ..If we make it worth his while. If Wenger signs again we are doomed. No other top player will want to come here.

Well the argument is that we have a better chance of getting top players because of Wenger, as his reputation precedes him. However what good is that when there's no difference now to what we were doing 8 years ago. He's getting the same results now with these guys as he was with Adebayor, Fabregas, RVC, Gallas etc.

The moment we signed Ozil, a window of opportunity opened up for us. That 3 year window has now firmly shut.

[Marc Overmars]

Wenger always leave it late to renew anyway so there is nothing going on. Surely a man of his knowledge and experience realises its time to go. Yes he is on good money and has a dream job but its time he left and gave the chance to another manager.

A lot of people say we'll struggle like Man ure did but they are different to us. They have been winning titles for 30 odd years while we have 2 cups to show for in 13 years. You also see how Chelsea went from a disastrous season and losing their most successful manager to winning the title the following season. We just need the right manager.

This Moyes fear is irrational. United were propped up by an exceptional manager in Fergie, the job was too big for Moyes and he collapsed under the weight of pressure.

We're not propped up by Wenger, we're held down by him, that's the difference. Standards are not as high.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The fear of change is fear of losing the consistency we have

Under Wenger we have finished 1st three times 2nd six times 3rd five times and 4th six times

He's not pushing us forward but there's no doubt that consistency is what has kept him in the job and although we see the same collapse season after season, the same inability to win when it comes to the crunch that consistency is in of itself impressive.

But the Wenger fan boys seem to forget, fans don't care about consistency.....its fine as a spring board for something better but in of itself it has very little relevance. We are also told that because Chelsea and City and United can spend more we have no right to expect any better.

We have no right to expect more than the same collapses? The same poor mentality, the same struggle against poor opposistion because the team are as complacent as the manager. We should pay the highest ticket prices in Europe and expect nothing more than qualifying for a competition we know we will come no where near winning.

We don't play the best football anymore so there's not even that, I'd be generous if I've said a quarter of our games this season have included good flowing football.

Fans want to win things and they are prepared to be pragmatic about the football the team plays in pursuit of that goal, but to have neither is just too far.

We are financially a well run club, on a footballing level we are a fiefdom placating a man who just won't accept he can't hack it anymore. And has never done enough to try and adapt the way he manages a team anyway.

[Power n Glory]

This whole situation is alarming. I hope the Board are talking to potential replacements even if Wenger has an extension offer on the table. It's selfish of Wenger to hold the club to ransom this way. How are supposed to properly prepare with this sort of uncertainty? He must know that. It can't come down to a gut feeling at the end of the season.

Either way, I hope the Board are doing their homework. Bring in someone with a solid rep and we don't have to worry about players leaving or attracting big players. They have to make the right decision when the time comes and I'm against them attempting to play a wildcard like that guy from RB Leipzig or Eddie Howie.

[Marc Overmars]

Hopefully there is some truth to these Allegri rumours. Someone who has experience of winning titles and managing top players. Could fancy the challenge with Conte already here cleaning up.

[Power n Glory]

Hopefully there is some truth to these Allegri rumours. Someone who has experience of winning titles and managing top players. Could fancy the challenge with Conte already here cleaning up.

Praying that is true.

[Power n Glory]

If they get Eddie Howie then we are fucked.

[AFC Leveller]

Allegri would be ideal for us. We just cannot extend Wenger's contract by two years, enough is enough.

[Power n Glory]

As DT said, Wenger has to announce what he's doing because it's dividing the fans. The longer he drags it out, the worse it gets and it only stains his legacy. What's the point of building all this for it to cause a divide and people to walk away from the club? They're all playing a dangerous game and if they sign up a poor manager that has zero chance of winning the league, they'll lose a lot of fans for good. I can't see people like Ty or Chris backing a new manager that underperforms as much as they've backed Wenger.

[AFC Leveller]

DT made a good point, Wenger should come out and say "its been fun but il be leaving in June" and the majority of the fans will unite and give him a nice goodbye.

[Marc Overmars]

As DT said, Wenger has to announce what he's doing because it's dividing the fans. The longer he drags it out, the worse it gets and it only stains his legacy. What's the point of building all this for it to cause a divide and people to walk away from the club? They're all playing a dangerous game and if they sign up a poor manager that has zero chance of winning the league, they'll lose a lot of fans for good. I can't see people like Ty or Chris backing a new manager that underperforms as much as they've backed Wenger.

That's probably my biggest concern. Not that we could get worse, but if a new manager did take a while to get going (which could well happen) then the fans now who still hold a candle for Wenger will pipe up and become even more divisive. Thus creating another toxic atmosphere only this time with the 'in' and 'out' roles reversed.

As far as I'm concerned a new manager gets a clean slate and my goodwill and patience. Something Wenger lost a long time ago.

[Power n Glory]

That's probably my biggest concern. Not that we could get worse, but if a new manager did take a while to get going (which could well happen) then the fans now who still hold a candle for Wenger will pipe up and become even more divisive. Thus creating another toxic atmosphere only this time with the 'in' and 'out' roles reversed.

As far as I'm concerned a new manager gets a clean slate and my goodwill and patience. Something Wenger lost a long time ago.

I really fear it will be a long lasting divide especially it fans are fighting in the crowd. The Board has to bring in a manager that everyone backs and has high hopes for. If they try to go for someone low key the scepticism will kick in straight away. For me, if I see play a wildcard and pull a David Moyes, I don't know how long I'll stay patient. It would be the clearest indication that this club has no ambition and that's when I turn off.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

DT made a good point, Wenger should come out and say "its been fun but il be leaving in June" and the majority of the fans will unite and give him a nice goodbye.

True but look at how city massively dipped when it was announced Guardiola would replace Pellegrini.

You could argue how could things get any worse but they can

Even with Ferguson's announcement he waited until the title was wrapped up.

[Niall_Quinn]

We shouldn't rule out joint managers. Negan and Lucile are possibilities.

[Power n Glory]

True but look at how city massively dipped when it was announced Guardiola would replace Pellegrini.

You could argue how could things get any worse but they can

Even with Ferguson's announcement he waited until the title was wrapped up.

How can it get worse? With the title race practically over for us, it's already looking likely that we'll implode. It looks like the fight has gone out of them for the league and it's possible we could slip out of the top 4. But unlike Pellegrini, I still think the players have some form of respect for Wenger and would want to send him out on a high if announced he's leaving.

[Niall_Quinn]

How can it get worse? With the title race practically over for us, it's already looking likely that we'll implode. It looks like the fight has gone out of them for the league and it's possible we could slip out of the top 4. But unlike Pellegrini, I still think the players have some form of respect for Wenger and would want to send him out on a high if announced he's leaving.

Do you think these modern players have any respect for anyone? They sure as hell have no respect for the fans.

[Power n Glory]

Do you think these modern players have any respect for anyone? They sure as hell have no respect for the fans.

Which players are you referring to? Who's more likely to take it easy knowing Wenger is on his way out?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

How can it get worse? With the title race practically over for us, it's already looking likely that we'll implode. It looks like the fight has gone out of them for the league and it's possible we could slip out of the top 4. But unlike Pellegrini, I still think the players have some form of respect for Wenger and would want to send him out on a high if announced he's leaving.

However bad it gets under Wenger there is always a level under which it doesn't fall. There is a big difference between Wenger going and a replacement coming in, although I don't think the absence of champions league football would be a drag factor for a potential manager for Chelsea or United it is for us because we can't just spunk money at the problem the way they can.
However you're right it could have the opposite effect, Bayern players knew come what may in 2013 that Jupp Heynckes was going and they won the treble (I think?) but the reason I have cited above is the rationale Wenger would have for not announcing his future. That plus in reality Wenger is desperate for anything to use as a chink of light to justify staying to himself, he wants to keep at the club for as long as possible because a) he won't want it to end like this and b) he's afraid of retiring.

[Power n Glory]

However bad it gets under Wenger there is always a level under which it doesn't fall. There is a big difference between Wenger going and a replacement coming in, although I don't think the absence of champions league football would be a drag factor for a potential manager for Chelsea or United it is for us because we can't just spunk money at the problem the way they can.
However you're right it could have the opposite effect, Bayern players knew come what may in 2013 that Jupp Heynckes was going and they won the treble (I think?) but the reason I have cited above is the rationale Wenger would have for not announcing his future. That plus in reality Wenger is desperate for anything to use as a chink of light to justify staying to himself, he wants to keep at the club for as long as possible because a) he won't want it to end like this and b) he's afraid of retiring.

Yes, Bayern won the treble that year. It's pretty selfish of Wenger. I think we're in for a dog fight for Top 4 regardless of what happens and Wenger will have to rally the players to stay in the fight. If this being is his last season for us can somehow motivate the players and get the fans behind him, so be it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Whether he should do it is one thing, whether he will do it is a totally different thing and he won't.

Plus I think the Wenger In lot are so militant they will just spend time blaming the rest of the fans for forcing Wenger out. But don't get me wrong i wouldn't necessarily be against him announcing he was stepping down at the end of the season, it's just not going to happen.

All this aside I don't think there will be a dog fight for top four, the title is completely over for us so there won't be any more bottling in the league. Two years ago, when we had no chance of catching Chelsea we produced some decent football and went on a good winning run. It's something we are psychologically incapable of when the big prize is on the line.

I would not be surprised if we won at Anfield, got at least a draw at white Hart Lane and fairly decent results against city and United.

Will probably go out to Bayern Munich despite another heroic failure, may win the FA cup may not.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I don't care about a dogfight for a place in the top 4. The Champions League and our ability to qualify for it has completely strangled all ambition from this Club. If the riches only came when you actually won something or even looked like having the potential to win something, the mentality at this Club would be completely different.

[rodders]

Wenger out and a more ambitious owner

[Power n Glory]

Whether he should do it is one thing, whether he will do it is a totally different thing and he won't.

Plus I think the Wenger In lot are so militant they will just spend time blaming the rest of the fans for forcing Wenger out. But don't get me wrong i wouldn't necessarily be against him announcing he was stepping down at the end of the season, it's just not going to happen.

All this aside I don't think there will be a dog fight for top four, the title is completely over for us so there won't be any more bottling in the league. Two years ago, when we had no chance of catching Chelsea we produced some decent football and went on a good winning run. It's something we are psychologically incapable of when the big prize is on the line.

I would not be surprised if we won at Anfield, got at least a draw at white Hart Lane and fairly decent results against city and United.

Will probably go out to Bayern Munich despite another heroic failure, may win the FA cup may not.

Hence why people are saying it just deepens the divide among the fans and creates an even more poisonous atmosphere the longer he stays on. The fans will continue to fight or walk away.

[Power n Glory]

I don't care about a dogfight for a place in the top 4. The Champions League and our ability to qualify for it has completely strangled all ambition from this Club. If the riches only came when you actually won something or even looked like having the potential to win something, the mentality at this Club would be completely different.

I'm with you on that.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't care about a dogfight for a place in the top 4. The Champions League and our ability to qualify for it has completely strangled all ambition from this Club. If the riches only came when you actually won something or even looked like having the potential to win something, the mentality at this Club would be completely different.

Yes, yes, and yes. That's about it. The CL rigged the game so a few wealthy clubs could make bank season after season after season without having to ever win a damn thing. This is the ultimate incentive in any business. Maximum profits, minimum investment. Some clubs, even the chavs, have not shifted entirely to a business focus, they still have one eye on the football and want to win trophies. Whether that's for the fans or not, who knows. It's certainly for the personal glory of Abramovich, but I doubt chavski fans care. At Arsenal we went 100% to the business model and chucked football in the bin. Everything has a business reason now. We don't sign this player because he has no resale value, we don't sign that player because he costs 2mill more than we budgeted. Everything is clinical, sterile. There seems to be zero comprehension that sometimes that extra 2mill brings you a title which in turn brings you 200mill in revenue you otherwise wouldn't have sniffed. There is no speculate to accumulate at Arsenal. Just accumulate.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Hence why people are saying it just deepens the divide among the fans and creates an even more poisonous atmosphere the longer he stays on. The fans will continue to fight or walk away.

It does for sure, the only point I made was that the Wenger Knows Best lot may continue the division no matter what

Whilst I don't necessarily think that applies to those like Ty who would 100% back whoever was the manager that's just his mentality

I'm sorry to say that for some fans Wenger means more to them than the football club

That said if a new manager comes in and the impact is immediate that would all change.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

On a personal level I would have liked for years for him to admit that he can't do it anymore and to hand the reigns over, what I think it would achieve is that the Arsenal fans would to a man love and respect him again.

I would have loved nothing else but to see Wenger win us the big trophies, it would have given me great pleasure to be wrong.

[Power n Glory]

It does for sure, the only point I made was that the Wenger Knows Best lot may continue the division no matter what

Whilst I don't necessarily think that applies to those like Ty who would 100% back whoever was the manager that's just his mentality

I'm sorry to say that for some fans Wenger means more to them than the football club

That said if a new manager comes in and the impact is immediate that would all change.

It's the same point Marc made earlier and why I say it deepens the divide that may surpass the Wenger era. But I also said the Board have to make the right call and bring in a manager that everyone can get behind. If try to gamble with a wildcard, we may see a repeat of the same BS.

[Globalgunner]

Wenger is the man who is incapable of climbing the highest mountains. Yet keeps insisting he must lead every new expedition. Failure guaranteed even before the equipment orders are made.

The main problem with this team is the mentality...basically it is a losing mentality that seeps from the owner down to the kit person. The only people that still pursue excellence at this club seem to be the groundsmen. We still have the best pitch, maybe in the world. Real Madrid came recruiting our groundsmen recently.

Pussification to use a current wordplay. That is the disease that has enveloped this club. A bunch of pussies with Wenger being the top Cat. Every other team in the league would have had someone...anyone run into Hazard yesterday and brought him down. Hopefully outside the box but at lest run with him and jockey him off the ball. Instead they all flick their legs at him like featherdusters as he slaloms through. Its not even a new disease it has been part of our make ip since even the invincibles. Dembele also ran right through us earlier this season and Giggs most famously did it in 1999.

Our central DM, Coq gets brushed off by Hazard like some undernourished teen and as soon as that happens, the whole team gets frozen like mannequins, scared of the outcome and unable to do anything to prevent it. Happens every time.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's the same point Marc made earlier and why I say it deepens the divide that may surpass the Wenger era. But I also said the Board have to make the right call and bring in a manager that everyone can get behind. If try to gamble with a wildcard, we may see a repeat of the same BS.

The same board that takes to the newspapers to express their disbelief at the attitude of the fans who "never had it so good"? These people don't speak the same language, don't read the same book and will never be on the same page as the fans. So whatever they decide will be the precise opposite of what the fans feel should be done to move the club forward. And people may say the fans don't know all the details of what goes on behind the scenes and that's true. But whatever is going on, the senior people at the club get paid a shit load to sort these things out and translate their efforts to results on the pitch and they don't do that. All their effort is poured into results on the balance sheet and that's not going to change when they make a decision on the manager. Anyway, they already told us what their ideal scenario is - Wenger to stay forever.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger is the man who is incapable of climbing the highest mountains. Yet keeps insisting he must lead every new expedition. Failure guaranteed even before the equipment orders are made.

The main problem with this team is the mentality...basically it is a losing mentality that seeps from the owner down to the kit person. The only people that still pursue excellence at this club seem to be the groundsmen. We still have the best pitch, maybe in the world. Real Madrid came recruiting our groundsmen recently.

Pussification to use a current wordplay. that is the disease that have enveloped this club. A bunch of pussies with Wenger being the top Cat. Every other team in the league would have had someone...anyone run into Hazard yesterday and brought him down. Hopefully outside the box but at lest run with him and jockey him off the ball. Instead they all flick their legs at him like featherdusters as he slaloms through. Its not even a new disease it has been part of our make ip since even the invincibles. Dembele also ran right through us earlier this season and Giggs most famously did it in 1999.

Our central D, Coq gets brushed off by Hazard like some undernourished teen and as soon as that happens, the whole team gets frozen like mannequins, scared of the outcome and unable to do anything to prevent it. Happens every time.

I have heard this a lot, that Coquelin's role was to bring Hazard down. I know that's how it works in the league but if we accept and encourage this then we can't really complain when Alonso smashed Bellerin in the face. Alonso did what it takes to win, fair or foul, and he got his reward. Probably we'd have been won a net reward if Coquelin had cheated. Unfortunately in football two cheats often do make it fair. But let's remember it's cheating in the end. It would be a lot better if Wenger taught the defenders how to defend, or brought in somebody who could do that job without strings attached. But that's never going to happen.

[Globalgunner]

I have heard this a lot, that Coquelin's role was to bring Hazard down. I know that's how it works in the league but if we accept and encourage this then we can't really complain when Alonso smashed Bellerin in the face. Alonso did what it takes to win, fair or foul, and he got his reward. Probably we'd have been won a net reward if Coquelin had cheated. Unfortunately in football two cheats often do make it fair. But let's remember it's cheating in the end. It would be a lot better if Wenger taught the defenders how to defend, or brought in somebody who could do that job without strings attached. But that's never going to happen.

There is an easy to define line between defensive play and a forearm smash in the face. Players like Gilberto knew how to play the DM role with nary a yellow card to his entire career. You have to simply make it your intent to dispossess your opponent of the ball within the laws. Run with him, shoulder barge him. All allowed in the rules of the game. You dont have to be a scrote like Ramires or Paul Scholes to be effective. As nasty as he could sometimes be I would not class Roy Keane as a dirty player. Its also not about size either. Kante and Makalele are both under 5`5". You need to know what you are doing. Unfortunately at Arsenal we all know who does the teaching.

[Power n Glory]

I have heard this a lot, that Coquelin's role was to bring Hazard down. I know that's how it works in the league but if we accept and encourage this then we can't really complain when Alonso smashed Bellerin in the face. Alonso did what it takes to win, fair or foul, and he got his reward. Probably we'd have been won a net reward if Coquelin had cheated. Unfortunately in football two cheats often do make it fair. But let's remember it's cheating in the end. It would be a lot better if Wenger taught the defenders how to defend, or brought in somebody who could do that job without strings attached. But that's never going to happen.

That's actually a fair point. Hence why I'm not getting carried away with that first goal.

[Niall_Quinn]

There is an easy to define line between defensive play and a forearm smash in the face. Players like Gilberto knew how to play the DM role with nary a yellow card to his entire career. You have to simply make it your intent to dispossess your opponent of the ball within the laws. Run with him, shoulder barge him. All allowed in the rules of the game. You dont have to be a scrote like Ramires or Paul Scholes to be effective. As nasty as he could sometimes be I would not class Roy Keane as a dirty player. Its also not about size either. Kante and Makalele are both under 5`5". You need to know what you are doing. Unfortunately at Arsenal we all know who does the teaching.

That's how I ultimately view it too. Yes, players need to take responsibility and players can make mistakes, but the rate at which our players make mistakes or don't even get into a position to make a mistake because they are exposed, 30 yards up the pitch, has to come back to one man. Same as with the players who go missing in games. It's unacceptable for players to take the day off on match day, especially when they are on the pitch. But this hasn't caused Wenger any real concern over the past decade as he's watched the likes of Theo Walcott get 3 touches in a game, or more recently watched Giroud strolling around. Now people say Ozil goes missing. Why is this strange or unexpected? That has been an open option for a long time under Wenger. Turn up when you want, go missing when you want. You'll still get picked and all that will really happen is Wenger will do an interview and say we lacked little bit sharpness. He's such a fuck up of a manger. In all respects related to what happens on the training ground, in the dressing room and on the pitch. As a bank manager, well I concede, he's a genius.

[Power n Glory]

There is an easy to define line between defensive play and a forearm smash in the face.

What's the difference between this and what happened yesterday?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm2gszsZ2DE

[Niall_Quinn]

What's the difference between this and what happened yesterday?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm2gszsZ2DE

The ridiculous hairstyle, for a start.

[Globalgunner]

What's the difference between this and what happened yesterday?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm2gszsZ2DE

The difference would be if the opposition player was concussed and had to be replaced

[Power n Glory]

The difference would be if the opposition player was concussed and had to be replaced

:lol: BS. So if Bellerin got up a played on it's no foul? Or alternatively, Giroud scores that goal and the ref checks on the Janmaat but rules it out for a foul because the player looks dazed. ;)

[RomfordPele]

:lol: BS. So if Bellerin got up a played on it's no foul? Or alternatively, Giroud scores that goal and the ref checks on the Janmaat but rules it out for a foul because the player looks dazed. ;)

I think the point is they're both fouls, but they're hard for referees to spot. Unless there are little give-away signs. Like the defender being knocked unconscious by the hand-off. Then they should be quite easy to spot.

[Niall_Quinn]

Crazy times in punditry. Xhaka makes a little trip and all the pundits suddenly pretend there's a new rule that says it should be a red. Just as quick as it is invented, the new rule disappears and we watch through the rest of the season as repeat after repeat after repeat goes unpunished.

Then Bellerlin gets elbowed into unconsciousness in an incident that will be a foul every single time from this point forward. But on this occasion, no, it's fine and the pundits agree.

They just make it up as they go. Some fool confidently spouts bullshit and the rest of them stick their noses up each other's arseholes and troop along behind. No brains, eyes, wit ever needed.

Of course tis was a foul. If it had been the keeper against Alonso - foul, no doubt. So why it isn't a foul when it's Bellerin rather than Cech on the receiving end, well we know why. Because the ref's a gutless shit who is too afraid to apply the rules in case the home crowd get on his case. In other words, not fit to referee.

[AFC Leveller]

Sometimes I think how great it would be if I went on sky sports and their breaking news headline reads "Wenger to leave Arsenal at the end of the season".

That would bring so much excitement to the fans.

[Niall_Quinn]

Sometimes I think how great it would be if I went on sky sports and their breaking news headline reads "Wenger to leave Arsenal at the end of the season".

That would bring so much excitement to the fans.

Wouldn't that be fake news? Thought we were trying to get rid of fake news. And who would believe something so unlikely anyway? You'd have to try and make it a bit more convincing, like Wenger captured by aliens and flown halfway across the universe - won't make it back in time to manage Arsenal for 2017/18 season.

[mastermind84]

Poor structure leads to matches like this against even talent with better organization.

[Power n Glory]

I think the point is they're both fouls, but they're hard for referees to spot. Unless there are little give-away signs. Like the defender being knocked unconscious by the hand-off. Then they should be quite easy to spot.

Are they both fouls? If that's your stance, cool. But I don't think many saw Giroud's goal as a foul back then. I know I didn't.

[Power n Glory]

http://thegoonerramble.com/podcast/98-elbowed-out-of-the-title-race/

Gonner Ramble Podcast.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Normally listen to Arseblog and occasionally footballistically Arsenal, not listened to this one before

It's much more analytical, however for the life of me why would anyone suggest playing Ospina over Cech.

Cech is not playing well at the moment, and it would probably be worth signing a younger and better replacement in the summer but Ospina is terrible, Cech gets beaten at his near post far too much but he still has the attributes of a top class keeper....Ospina doesn't, his ability at corners his ball distribution and generally his shot stopping is all below par.

It's because he's hardly played this season that his massive shortcomings haven't been on display.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ospina's shot stopping ability is below par? I don't see that. I think he's an excellent shot stopper, but is suspect in the other areas.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ospina's shot stopping ability is below par? I don't see that. I think he's an excellent shot stopper, but is suspect in the other areas.

Problem is he tips shots away and parries shot that he should be able to claim

[selassie]

Ospina's shot stopping ability is below par? I don't see that. I think he's an excellent shot stopper, but is suspect in the other areas.

Agreed. I actually think Ospina is an excellent shot stopper but is pretty flakey when it comes to commanding his area, he doesn't inspire confidence aerially or when coming for crosses.

To be fair he has been very good this season but he still doesn't totally convince me, I just have that feeling he is one step away from a howler!

[Power n Glory]

Normally listen to Arseblog and occasionally footballistically Arsenal, not listened to this one before

It's much more analytical, however for the life of me why would anyone suggest playing Ospina over Cech.

Cech is not playing well at the moment, and it would probably be worth signing a younger and better replacement in the summer but Ospina is terrible, Cech gets beaten at his near post far too much but he still has the attributes of a top class keeper....Ospina doesn't, his ability at corners his ball distribution and generally his shot stopping is all below par.

It's because he's hardly played this season that his massive shortcomings haven't been on display.

He's had a few good outings this season and I think Cech needs to know that he's not untouchable. That's probably why it's been suggested. It's not a long term solution imo.

[Power n Glory]

Agreed. I actually think Ospina is an excellent shot stopper but is pretty flakey when it comes to commanding his area, he doesn't inspire confidence aerially or when coming for crosses.

To be fair he has been very good this season but he still doesn't totally convince me, I just have that feeling he is one step away from a howler!

What game was it where he saved our bacon?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He's had a few good outings this season and I think Cech needs to know that he's not untouchable. That's probably why it's been suggested. It's not a long term solution imo.

Frankly i worry every time Ospina plays, if i was to drop Cech (which i'm not in anyway against) i would play Emi Martinez who i really like and played a few games for us a couple of years ago.

[Niall_Quinn]

Problem is he tips shots away and parries shot that he should be able to claim

I think both our keepers have been badly exposed by the defence this season. Not to excuse their own individual goalkeeping errors, but the defence has been a shambles from day one. It's supposed to be the keeper working with the back four and vice versa but I very much see the keeper as isolated in our current defensive system and the four defenders individually isolated which compounds the problem. I see it coming back to the same thing - get rid of Wenger and bring in somebody who knows how to build a back five. I would expect to see more dominance from the keepers and far fewer mistakes because the pressure would be relieved across the board. The number of times we see Kos and Bellerin having to use extreme pace and last gasp challenges is silly. That's not defending, it's firefighting. This is without talking about the midfield which has all but given up shielding the defence.

It's a shambles and like the Ozil argument, the Xhaka argument, any player including the keepers, it's hard to really judge the quality and form of these guys because they are mostly trying to stay afloat.

[Niall_Quinn]

Frankly i worry every time Ospina plays, if i was to drop Cech (which i'm not in anyway against) i would play Emi Martinez who i really like and played a few games for us a couple of years ago.

You really think we should bring in an inexperienced keeper and ask him to cope with Wenger's bullshit? Recipe for disaster I think, and it would kill the kid's confidence in the process.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You really think we should bring in an inexperienced keeper and ask him to cope with Wenger's bullshit? Recipe for disaster I think, and it would kill the kid's confidence in the process.

He's 24 hardly a kid, and as he's not an outfield player he can't be corrupted by Wenger as easily....whether he succeeds or fails is totally up to him

[selassie]

What game was it where he saved our bacon?

One of the PSG games in CL? Or was it another one?

[Power n Glory]

One of the PSG games in CL? Or was it another one?

Could be. He game where he pulled off some amazing saves. It's quite a statement to drop a keeper but I think if he has a good game against Bayern he should get his shot.

[Marc Overmars]

Ospina has a touch of Almunia about him. Meek keepers with a penchant for Hollywood saves are always suspect, though sometimes you'll get games where their agility can get us out of trouble.

Cech is still a decent keeper despite his weakness at the near post. The error on the weekend was out of character so I'm not going to come down on him too hard for that, he could probably do with a reminder though that his position isn't completely secure.

[selassie]

Could be. He game where he pulled off some amazing saves. It's quite a statement to drop a keeper but I think if he has a good game against Bayern he should get his shot.

No doubt he should get a chance, Cech is still a very good keeper but is in bad form at the moment, he's made quite a few high profile mistakes lately. I think Cech is still decent enough for us but there is no doubt he is in decline.

Maybe dropping him would give him a much needed kick up the arse!

[Niall_Quinn]

Cech was a model professional when he arrived here. It's hard to believe he'd need a kick up the arse to remind him he needs to put the performances in. He's the least likely candidate in the squad to be complacent. And yet, maybe the Arsenal Way is irrepressible. Maybe nobody can avoid dropping a level when Wenger goes to work.

[Marc Overmars]

Cech was a model professional when he arrived here. It's hard to believe he'd need a kick up the arse to remind him he needs to put the performances in. He's the least likely candidate in the squad to be complacent. And yet, maybe the Arsenal Way is irrepressible. Maybe nobody can avoid dropping a level when Wenger goes to work.

Must be quite the culture shock for him coming to this nice but ramshackle establishment, after so many years with a bunch of cunts hell bent on winning everything.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Cech was a model professional when he arrived here. It's hard to believe he'd need a kick up the arse to remind him he needs to put the performances in. He's the least likely candidate in the squad to be complacent. And yet, maybe the Arsenal Way is irrepressible. Maybe nobody can avoid dropping a level when Wenger goes to work.

That approach takes away any responsibility the players have themselves

We know Wenger is bad at team selections, game plans and motivating players to leave everything on the pitch

But many of these players are just not pushing themselves, if that applies to Cech i don't know but Chelsea dropped him in favour of Thibault Courtouis because they probably could see that his best days were behind him.

[selassie]

Must be quite the culture shock for him coming to this nice but ramshackle establishment, after so many years with a bunch of cunts hell bent on winning everything.

Easy money for him, his retirement fund. Of course he most likely wants to win but I've no doubt he has worked it all out now. Minimum effort required, no accountability.

[Niall_Quinn]

That approach takes away any responsibility the players have themselves

We know Wenger is bad at team selections, game plans and motivating players to leave everything on the pitch

But many of these players are just not pushing themselves, if that applies to Cech i don't know but Chelsea dropped him in favour of Thibault Courtouis because they probably could see that his best days were behind him.

Have you ever worked in a place where everyone is taking the piss? It's a culture. It is very, very difficult (if not impossible) to be at the top of your game when everything around you is slack. Yes, you should push yourself anyway but if you have ever experienced a piss take environment you'll know that no matter how much effort you put it it doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

The chavs are proving this. Last season it was one giant piss take. The whole place was all about Maureen and Maureen's all encompassing ego. So the players took the year off because winning wasn't they purpose of the club that year. This season a new manager comes in, organises the place, explains that winning is back on the agenda and look at the result. Same players, bar one important addition, but essentially the same players. Same Hazard. Same Costa. Even same Fabregas. Luiz can suddenly kick a ball. Can all of them individually have had a lapse in professionalism last season? Maybe. It's possible, though improbable. Could they have collectively switched off last year because they simply couldn't compete with the Maureen Show? That seems more likely to me.

Wenger may not be a despicable shit like Maureen but he's having a similarly toxic effect on the club. I said it at the start of the season, said it at the mid-point and I'll say it at the end when we have failed to do ourselves justice again. Wenger is a huge weight dragging everything else down. Even massive characters like Alexis are starting to look disinterested. You have to be pure poison to neutralise Alexis' enthusiasm. And the only player I can think of in our squad who might compete with Alexis in terms of desire is Cech. I just can't see Cech deciding to coast, not unless that's why he came here in the first place. What I can see is players in different states of realisation that no matter what they do Wenger will undo it.

Why are we even talking about this? We've all seen the team this season, unprepared, demotivated, lacking heart, failing to turn up for the first half. There's a sickness at the club that has affected everyone in contact with it. It seems very obvious to me. The difference between ourselves and the chavs is the latter quickly moved to find a cure. They were down and out for one year. Our board doesn't even realise there's a problem. This has been going on for a decade. I wonder how long we have before a chronic problem becomes an unrecoverable, terminal one?

Yes, it's fair to demand 100% from the players. They get paid enough and have enough perks and privileges to deliver that as a minimum. But even the most powerful engines can't escape a black hole. You can strain on full power until the engine blows but you are going to be sucked in by that super massive, crushing, annihilating force. Hope, ambition, joy, entertainment, progress, the very randomness of life itself, Wenger swallows it all without mercy.

[Power n Glory]

Have you ever worked in a place where everyone is taking the piss? It's a culture. It is very, very difficult (if not impossible) to be at the top of your game when everything around you is slack. Yes, you should push yourself anyway but if you have ever experienced a piss take environment you'll know that no matter how much effort you put it it doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

The chavs are proving this. Last season it was one giant piss take. The whole place was all about Maureen and Maureen's all encompassing ego. So the players took the year off because winning wasn't they purpose of the club that year. This season a new manager comes in, organises the place, explains that winning is back on the agenda and look at the result. Same players, bar one important addition, but essentially the same players. Same Hazard. Same Costa. Even same Fabregas. Luiz can suddenly kick a ball. Can all of them individually have had a lapse in professionalism last season? Maybe. It's possible, though improbable. Could they have collectively switched off last year because they simply couldn't compete with the Maureen Show? That seems more likely to me.

Wenger may not be a despicable shit like Maureen but he's having a similarly toxic effect on the club. I said it at the start of the season, said it at the mid-point and I'll say it at the end when we have failed to do ourselves justice again. Wenger is a huge weight dragging everything else down. Even massive characters like Alexis are starting to look disinterested. You have to be pure poison to neutralise Alexis' enthusiasm. And the only player I can think of in our squad who might compete with Alexis in terms of desire is Cech. I just can't see Cech deciding to coast, not unless that's why he came here in the first place. What I can see is players in different states of realisation that no matter what they do Wenger will undo it.

Why are we even talking about this? We've all seen the team this season, unprepared, demotivated, lacking heart, failing to turn up for the first half. There's a sickness at the club that has affected everyone in contact with it. It seems very obvious to me. The difference between ourselves and the chavs is the latter quickly moved to find a cure. They were down and out for one year. Our board doesn't even realise there's a problem. This has been going on for a decade. I wonder how long we have before a chronic problem becomes an unrecoverable, terminal one?

Yes, it's fair to demand 100% from the players. They get paid enough and have enough perks and privileges to deliver that as a minimum. But even the most powerful engines can't escape a black hole. You can strain on full power until the engine blows but you are going to be sucked in by that super massive, crushing, annihilating force. Hope, ambition, joy, entertainment, progress, the very randomness of life itself, Wenger swallows it all without mercy.

I agree with that we have a culture at the club that’s problematic. From the Board to the manager. I’ve made this argument before, but I can understand the Board not being as desperate to win the league but I can’t understand why a sportsman would have that attitude. That applies to Wenger and the players.

When looking at the poor performances during project youth, besides the manager being a soft touch, we’d often argue that the players weren’t good enough and maybe Wenger’s faith in them being/becoming ‘super quality’ players were misguided. There was no evidence to back up his claims and you only have to look at where some of those players ended up as further proof.

But as said yesterday, there were players in project youth that weren’t totally sapped by the culture and shined when playing but were let down by the system/coach. They wanted championships so badly they had to go elsewhere to succeed. Cesc and RVP in particular. They hung in there with Arsene until they couldn’t do it anymore and just took their talents elsewhere. I’ve always thought those players needed to be surrounded by quality, experience and players of the right mentality to win something with Arsenal.

But now seeing what’s going on with some of the players here makes me think it’s a case of complacency for some of our main players. They should know better. Maybe it’s old age with Cech, but he plays in a role where the system should have no bearing on his reflexes as a keeper. Not unless it’s set pieces and corners can I excuse him for mistakes. Situations where there is confusion on who is doing what. But I can’t excuse him for getting beat on his near post just because Kos and Musatfi have fallen asleep. His instincts and reflexes should kick in. All he’s required to do is dive. It’s not complicated.

It’s similar to the point I was making about Ozil last night. I can understand if he’s not playing with the right sort of players in front of him or not getting the ball quick enough. I can understand if he’s not seeing the players make the right sort of runs. But seeing how he played for Madrid and the way he could pick the ball up from a deep area and run past two or three defenders….the way he’d use his pace….why isn’t that happening for us? There is nothing stopping a player from trying to dribble. It’s the most soloist thing you can do in football where you only need to receive the ball in order to dribble. Take the initiate. Take the responsibility to make something happen like we’d see with Henry, Vieira, Pires and Bergkamp.

Speaking of that era, it’s well known that Wenger wasn’t a disciplinarian. The players would often play jokes on each other and things were light at times but they never slacked off in training or on match day. Things have changed in football and the level of competition has risen, but these guys wouldn’t just roll over and not even attempt to tackle and run as we’ve seen in some games. It’s inexcusable that they’re not mentally ready for a game.

My theory, the talent is obviously there but I question how much a player like Cech and Ozil still want to win titles since they’ve won the biggest prizes in the football. Sure, they need a kick up the backside but it says a lot about them if they slack off. It’s not the same as the Chelsea situation. Not even close. That was mutiny where the players couldn’t stand the manager and they knew there owner has no problem pulling the trigger. With us, there in the sort of environment where you stand out and rise quickly or sink like a stone if you haven’t got the right attitude. Take Coquelin for example. A very limited player but I don’t question his commitment. A misplaced pass I can forgive. A bad decision to try and win the ball back instantly, I can forgive that. Even getting bounced off the ball by Hazard, I can forgive that. But I’d have a serious problem if he just lost the ball and never bothered to chase back. I’d have a serious problem with him if he wasn’t showing up to receive the ball and shunned responsibility of playing it forward.

That’s my two cents anyway. I’d cut some slack to the young inexperienced players because I thought they were suffering from a lack of confidence and being asked to perform something beyond their talents. I can’t say the same for this squad. Even if it’s a tactical mess out there, show some professionalism.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I actually agree and you can see on the pitch there are players even when they are shoe horned into a mess of a formation where they will always try, and some players that unless everything is right for them will just shrug their shoulders and let the game pass them by.

Although i am not quite sure Cesc falls into the bracket you explain because there were plenty of games where he was a lazy little scrote and didn't bother to turn up (especially in his last season with us), someone like Van Persie as much as we hate him for going to United he practically single handedly dragged us into third place in 2012/2013.

And you're right there are also players with less ability who also give everything, Yaya Sanogo barely can walk on two legs but you'd never accuse him of not giving us everything I was at the Emirates when he scored his one and only goal for us to date and i was really pleased for him.

I give Monreal plenty of stick because of how slow he is, but at the same time.....again he's not a lazy player he will cover ground and put himself about he's just going to get exposed for pace.....I remember when we left ourselves so totally without defensive cover that he played centre back for us and often i saw him working far harder in that position than Per Mertesacker (I used to go to the Emirates quite a bit at that time, used to watch Monreal work his arse off but Mertesacker used to just bowl up to the half way line to watch us in attack as if he had paid for a ticket like us in the stands)

Ramsey is in shocking form and on top of that there is simply the feeling that his attitude stinks, he gives the ball away against Watford for their second goal and he just glares at Gabriel instead of running back, and you mention Coquelin although he failed he seemed to be the only one even bothering to try and catch Capoue.

Cech I don't think it's a case of lack of effort, he has just long ago peaked......one of his weaknesses even at Chelsea was getting beaten too often at his near post, and i think as the clock is working against him so is his body.....he just seems slow to react....sometimes goalkeepers mature like wine but Cech was at his best far earlier in his career than someone like David Seaman for instance.

I think good leadership brings the best out of all players and that is seriously lacking at the top and it's why Wenger has to go, but it's never acceptable for professionals at this level to say "well there is no consequence to my poor performances and i'm getting paid anyway so who cares". Firstly it's clear that not every player at Arsenal has that attitude, Sanchez and Welbeck will have bad games but you can never fault their application.

[Niall_Quinn]

Only thing we know for sure is it will all remain exactly the same for as long as Wenger is here.

[Letters]

I don't think Wenger is a force sapping the life out of everything but neither is he a win at all costs **** like Fergie.
His greatest success came when we had a strong captain. Adams wouldn't let them get away with some of the rubbish we see from this lot.
I don't even know who our captain is right now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think Wenger is a force sapping the life out of everything but neither is he a win at all costs **** like Fergie.
His greatest success came when we had a strong captain. Adams wouldn't let them get away with some of the rubbish we see from this lot.
I don't even know who our captain is right now.

Per Mertesacker, Laurent Koscielny is acting captain whilst he is injured

[Power n Glory]

Ramsey is in shocking form and on top of that there is simply the feeling that his attitude stinks, he gives the ball away against Watford for their second goal and he just glares at Gabriel instead of running back, and you mention Coquelin although he failed he seemed to be the only one even bothering to try and catch Capoue.

That Ramsey situation sprung to mind as well. We know he has an engine to get back and make that tackle so seeing him not even make an attempt really pissed me off. If you don't have the ability or awareness to deal with that situation, it's forgivable. If they don't know any better, it's down to the manager to take them to one side and point out the flaws. But if they have the experience, have let their own standards drop and know better and let their own standards drop, I have serious problem with that player. It drives me mad when I see players ducking responsibility. It's the same sort of thing that drives me mad when I see Wenger's post game excuses after we lose.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think Wenger is a force sapping the life out of everything but neither is he a win at all costs **** like Fergie.
His greatest success came when we had a strong captain. Adams wouldn't let them get away with some of the rubbish we see from this lot.
I don't even know who our captain is right now.

His greatest success came when he had strong players full stop. Mentally and physically. The last 13 years at Arsenal makes it inevitable there will be questions about just who was behind Arsenal's success. Wenger? Or did the likes of the legendary back five and true leaders like Vieira and Bergkamp do what the current bunch can't and drag Wenger's dead weight to the top of the mountain?

[Power n Glory]

I don't think Wenger is a force sapping the life out of everything but neither is he a win at all costs **** like Fergie.
His greatest success came when we had a strong captain. Adams wouldn't let them get away with some of the rubbish we see from this lot.
I don't even know who our captain is right now.

I was thinking the same thing when trying to think of who's captain. I knew it was Merts but didn't know who was standing in for him. I hate Kos as captain. He says nothing and you only have to watch what he does when we concede. But I doubt it matters who we have as captain. Plenty of experienced players and captains on the pitch but nobody reacts.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

His greatest success came when he had strong players full stop. Mentally and physically. The last 13 years at Arsenal makes it inevitable there will be questions about just who was behind Arsenal's success. Wenger? Or did the likes of the legendary back five and true leaders like Vieira and Bergkamp do what the current bunch can't and drag Wenger's dead weight to the top of the mountain?

Yeah this is the kind of thing Zim tends to do rewriting history, you can make that point about many people.....would Clough have succeeded where he did without Peter Taylor.

Even at the time none of us were under any illusion that Wenger was a master tactician, his great talent was in finding unpolished gems and creating great teams with them. Times have changed and he has been abjectly slow at changing with it, and above all else you aren't a great innovator when you reach Wenger's age.

He did revolutionise the game in this country and bring the athleticism to it that had been previously missing, look how many people adopted his methods in terms of searching obscure leagues to dredge up a diamond and his diet and fitness regimes. He was ahead of the curve in so many ways when he came here, but with twenty years gone he's stale.

What i don't think is necessary is trying to airbrush history and make him appear like someone who just happened upon what he did by dumb luck

Wenger at Arsenal is very much like the Federer of football managers (though yeah hasn't achieved anywhere near what Federer has) in that his biggest achievements have been in the first half of his career....although unlike Federer i don't think Wenger has the equivalent of another grand slam in him.

[selassie]

I don't think Wenger is a force sapping the life out of everything but neither is he a win at all costs **** like Fergie.
His greatest success came when we had a strong captain. Adams wouldn't let them get away with some of the rubbish we see from this lot.
I don't even know who our captain is right now.

We have 11 captains Letters, 11 Leaders :)

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah this is the kind of thing Zim tends to do rewriting history, you can make that point about many people.....would Clough have succeeded where he did without Peter Taylor.

Even at the time none of us were under any illusion that Wenger was a master tactician, his great talent was in finding unpolished gems and creating great teams with them. Times have changed and he has been abjectly slow at changing with it, and above all else you aren't a great innovator when you reach Wenger's age.

He did revolutionise the game in this country and bring the athleticism to it that had been previously missing, look how many people adopted his methods in terms of searching obscure leagues to dredge up a diamond and his diet and fitness regimes. He was ahead of the curve in so many ways when he came here, but with twenty years gone he's stale.

What i don't think is necessary is trying to airbrush history and make him appear like someone who just happened upon what he did by dumb luck

Wenger at Arsenal is very much like the Federer of football managers (though yeah hasn't achieved anywhere near what Federer has) in that his biggest achievements have been in the first half of his career....although unlike Federer i don't think Wenger has the equivalent of another grand slam in him.

Hold on - the last decade has been all about airbrushing history. Wenger's football record is catastrophic, no other top flight manager has survived such terrible numbers. And yet he's a genius, a professor, a miracle worker. Untouchable. So why is it okay to play make believe in the latter half of his reign but unacceptable to examine how badly exposed he has been over that period and then rethink what happened before? All history is refined over time because, usually, when it is written it is written by the hand of those who benefit from a favourable re-telling. Then as time passes so real history emerges. Wenger is not untouchable. He's the fool who lingered long beyond his shelf life. If he'd have had a bit of sense and left years ago then his would be a history that becomes a legend and it wouldn't be much questioned. Now we look at this incompetent old man stumbling around the place, clueless, incoherent, riddled with excuses. I say question everything.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

In terms of elite level management he has been badly exposed the last ten years in terms of winning major trophies, no if he was managing chelsea, city or united he would not have kept his job but given how inconsistent Liverpool have been for instance would they have really sacked a manager who finished no lower than 4th every season even if they had not seen a sniff of a title race, would Atletico Madrid in Spain?, Dortmund in Germany?.

It's all relative, he has not been anywhere near good enough considering what we have been promised to expect and considering the money he has been given to build a capable squad. Fans are rightly sick of the constant capitulations, the lack of mental strength and the guy sitting there in a giant michelin man jacket looking like he's escaped from Rampton....but he has achieved a consistency that few other people are capable of and this has allowed him as well as a play it safe board to be last man standing.

Question everything by all means, but coming to any conclusion other than what he achieved in his first ten years at Arsenal would be near on impossible to be matched (whether he was helped by more mature heads in the squad or not) seems to be based on familiarity breeding contempt rather than any thorough analysis.

[Power n Glory]

Hold on - the last decade has been all about airbrushing history. Wenger's football record is catastrophic, no other top flight manager has survived such terrible numbers. And yet he's a genius, a professor, a miracle worker. Untouchable. So why is it okay to play make believe in the latter half of his reign but unacceptable to examine how badly exposed he has been over that period and then rethink what happened before? All history is refined over time because, usually, when it is written it is written by the hand of those who benefit from a favourable re-telling. Then as time passes so real history emerges. Wenger is not untouchable. He's the fool who lingered long beyond his shelf life. If he'd have had a bit of sense and left years ago then his would be a history that becomes a legend and it wouldn't be much questioned. Now we look at this incompetent old man stumbling around the place, clueless, incoherent, riddled with excuses. I say question everything.

I think with ex players having a chance to write their own books and weigh in on interviews about their experience at Arsenal, we gain a great insight to the managers strengths and weaknesses. It’s only over the last few years we’ve seen that quote from Vieira about him having too much faith in players – his greatest strength and weakness.

[Niall_Quinn]

In terms of elite level management he has been badly exposed the last ten years in terms of winning major trophies, no if he was managing chelsea, city or united he would not have kept his job but given how inconsistent Liverpool have been for instance would they have really sacked a manager who finished no lower than 4th every season even if they had not seen a sniff of a title race, would Atletico Madrid in Spain?, Dortmund in Germany?.

It's all relative, he has not been anywhere near good enough considering what we have been promised to expect and considering the money he has been given to build a capable squad. Fans are rightly sick of the constant capitulations, the lack of mental strength and the guy sitting there in a giant michelin man jacket looking like he's escaped from Rampton....but he has achieved a consistency that few other people are capable of and this has allowed him as well as a play it safe board to be last man standing.

Question everything by all means, but coming to any conclusion other than what he achieved in his first ten years at Arsenal would be near on impossible to be matched (whether he was helped by more mature heads in the squad or not) seems to be based on familiarity breeding contempt rather than any thorough analysis.

I'm not saying his legacy should be denied or removed. I'm saying it should be reevaluated. Yes, he has had a big influence on British football. That's tangible, you can see his early methods in effect at most teams these days. Mind you, you would hope so and even though it took guts to come in as an unknown and start rearranging the football culture it's not as if his ideas were inspired. More than anything they were common sense for an environment that lacked common sense up to that point. Binge drinking, crappy diets, a general lack of fitness. You would expect professional athletes behave as such but it's true, it took Wenger to come along and suggest what didn't seem to dawn on those that went before.

True also he brought in players like Vieira, Overmars, Pires, Henry and the rest. So we know he had an eye for a player back then but let's also remember he came with the advantage of having an enviable scouting network built on a career spanning the globe. Good for him, he's the guy who made that career so nobody is taking that away from him either.

The style of football he wanted to play. Another plus point. Fast, powerful, technical football, some of the best every played and certainly it's beyond a doubt it was the best ever played in this country. It's also likely to be the best we'll ever see in this country as the standard of modern football slides back into the swamp.

But now a question arises. Could he have taken the squad he has now (or any of the recent squads) and transplanted them into that era and come away with similar results? I don't think so, it seems highly, highly unlikely. Wenger faced far more fearsome opposition back then in the shape of Ferguson's Utd at its peak. No team in the league today would last five minutes at that level. So just like we say today that the players have to take some responsibility for the shitty results, it's fair to say the players back then deserve some credit. I know they get that credit, so not a problem there. I'm just wondering how that credit should be parcelled out. Because when I see Wenger trying to extract title winning performances out of the current bunch it seems to me he doesn't have the first clue how to do it. Not a clue. And it makes me ask, what is it that he has forgotten and how has he managed to misplace something of such great significance. Or indeed, did he ever possess it? Was it his vision coupled with the leadership of the previous generation of players that was the secret recipe? And now that generation is gone, do we see the real Wenger. A man with his visions but zero ability to bring them into reality? And is this because he's lost his eye for a player? Or have players become inferior in general? Or what is it?

Because it certainly is difficult to explain the extreme differences between early Wenger and what we have now. And I think it's valid to ask questions about that and not illegal to reach some opinion based conclusions.

Clough fell to pieces because he was a drunk, btw. Wenger isn't. His collapse has been in a stone cold sober state. I just wish he'd left years ago so we could all look back and say, what a guy he was, amazing. But now what do you see when you look at him? It's sad. He's done this to himself and he's bloody fortunate he still controls the media because he'd have long since been Robsoned or Taylored by now. Surely he realised that if he signs up for another 2 years he'll struggle to keep that protection and his legacy will be under real threat of being permanently tarnished?

he has to go. Not just for the good of the club but for his own sake.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What he lacks is the ability to adapt what worked for him then into today's game.

Plus there is an age consideration with the exception of Ferguson, how many managers are winning the top prizes well into their sixties, as you get older especially you lose the ability to innovate and lose the spark to tear things up to begin again.

We compare Wenger to Ferguson and say it comes down to an appetite to win, but also Ferguson knew his limitations he was a great motivator but he also knew that coaching and training on a day to day basis should be left to younger men. Wenger simply cannot do that, even though it was Steve Bould in the dug out next to him was Neil Banfield who had Wenger talking in his ear every few minutes.

We know that there was a power vaccum in the club structure when David Dein left and who stepped into that vaccum none other than Wenger himself and no one tried to stop him, and this is what we are left with a man who has made himself Unsackable because no other manager would be prepared to do half of what he undertakes.

Ferguson sure as hell didn't have the same power and influence at United that Wenger has at Arsenal and you could argue even that has been detrimental to his management, because no more do you have anyone who can take Wenger aside and say "Arsene you're doing too much you need to let others take responsibility" it's abundantly clear Ivan Gazidis cannot do it because he's in the unique position of being hired by the man over whom he is meant to have ultimate responsibility over.

Football ultimately has changed, Kenny Dalglish won titles with liverpool and a title with Blackburn but we know he'd be incapable of putting together a winning team even with the kind of money he had at city or United, the same with Louis Van Gaal does it denigrate what they achieved in the past, no it just means that their time has passed.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsenal-news-laurent-koscielny-arsene-wenger-team-selection-chelsea-defeat-a7566261.html

All is not well.


“I think we played some players in front of others and I think we should have played more as a team and there was space to do so. They hit us on the counter,” Koscielny said, according to The Mirror.

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20170204/koscielny-why-it-went-wrong-at-chelsea


I don’t think we played very well together in the same way, it was more one player after one player. I think we’d have had a lot of chances if we’d played quickly with our passing, on the flank we had to combine to have some opportunities. We did it in the first half. During a big game, if you don’t take your opportunities, it’s difficult to win the game. We need to be more efficient in both boxes.

All is not well at all.

[Marc Overmars]

He backed off Hazard like a little bitch.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsenal-news-laurent-koscielny-arsene-wenger-team-selection-chelsea-defeat-a7566261.html

All is not well.



http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20170204/koscielny-why-it-went-wrong-at-chelsea


All is not well at all.

Although i'm glad he used "We" as his own performance cannot be exempted, he is to all intents and purposes the Captain and i think he is right to speak out.

How Wenger will react to it, who knows.....more importantly who cares.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He backed off Hazard like a little bitch.

He did, but i don't think he's exempting himself from criticism

[Power n Glory]

He backed off Hazard like a little bitch.

Had a chance to take out Hazard earlier up the pitch as well before backing off into the box. Poor game from Kos.

[Power n Glory]

He did, but i don't think he's exempting himself from criticism

Probably, but would rather he spoke up on the pitch instead of just during the post game conferences. Whenever we concede his head just drops and he walks off.

[AFC Leveller]

It sounds like hes talking about the shape or the way we set up when he says some players played infront of others (if you translate it to french, he is saying they were in the way of eachother).

[Niall_Quinn]

It sounds like hes talking about the shape or the way we set up when he says some players played infront of others (if you translate it to french, he is saying they were in the way of eachother).

Agreed. It sounds like a commentary on the usual reluctance to use width, pace and a coherent shape. I guess it's no big deal because this is obvious to everyone except Wenger. Wenger must have the ability to completely block out this kind of stuff so I doubt he'll be able to hear what Kos said.

[Letters]

His greatest success came when he had strong players full stop. Mentally and physically. The last 13 years at Arsenal makes it inevitable there will be questions about just who was behind Arsenal's success. Wenger? Or did the likes of the legendary back five and true leaders like Vieira and Bergkamp do what the current bunch can't and drag Wenger's dead weight to the top of the mountain?

Well, obviously that's bullshit. The Invincibles were entirely Wenger's team, none of the legendary back five played in that team, I don't think there was a single pre-Wenger player who was a significant part of that team.
Many players from that early era have credited Wenger with extending their careers. His fitness methods were revolutionary - remember he came in at a time when there were still 'drinking schools' at clubs.
His knowledge of the worldwide game was revolutionary at the time too, remember how we used to get panned for having so many foreign players. Not any more, every club does it.

You'd have to go out of your way to deny him credit for all of that.
The problem is simply that other teams caught up and overtook him. And the billionaires weighing in just at the time when the stadium caused us the most financial pressure didn't help.

The last few years the finances have been there to properly compete. The FA Cups were a good start and gave us all hope that we could push on and compete for the biggest prizes again, the last couple of years have shown that Wenger isn't able to do that now. Shame. Wenger has never achieved success entirely on his own - no-one does. People like Dein off the pitch and Adams/Vieira on it clearly helped. But let's not rewrite history or over-state how terrible he is.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well, obviously that's bullshit. The Invincibles were entirely Wenger's team, none of the legendary back five played in that team, I don't think there was a single pre-Wenger player who was a significant part of that team.
Many players from that early era have credited Wenger with extending their careers. His fitness methods were revolutionary - remember he came in at a time when there were still 'drinking schools' at clubs.
His knowledge of the worldwide game was revolutionary at the time too, remember how we used to get panned for having so many foreign players. Not any more, every club does it.

You'd have to go out of your way to deny him credit for all of that.
The problem is simply that other teams caught up and overtook him. And the billionaires weighing in just at the time when the stadium caused us the most financial pressure didn't help.

The last few years the finances have been there to properly compete. The FA Cups were a good start and gave us all hope that we could push on and compete for the biggest prizes again, the last couple of years have shown that Wenger isn't able to do that now. Shame. Wenger has never achieved success entirely on his own - no-one does. People like Dein off the pitch and Adams/Vieira on it clearly helped. But let's not rewrite history or over-state how terrible he is.

Crazy. I actually go out of my way to explain I don't deny his influence on the the British game nor his extensive knowledge of the global game and you say - obviously that's bullshit, you'd have to go out of your way to deny him credit for all of that.

Crazy.

[Letters]

:blink:

[Power n Glory]

https://www.acast.com/arsenalvision/episode125-chelsea-a--we-reliterallyallgoingtodie

Arsenal Vision Podcast up.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

https://www.acast.com/arsenalvision/episode125-chelsea-a--we-reliterallyallgoingtodie

Arsenal Vision Podcast up.

Ha might give it a go, but not sure i can cope with another one after listening to the one you linked yesterday, the Arsecast extra and Le Grove's new podcast

[Power n Glory]

Ha might give it a go, but not sure i can cope with another one after listening to the one you linked yesterday, the Arsecast extra and Le Grove's new podcast

Tim Stillman from Arsecast often speaks on this show.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Tim Stillman from Arsecast often speaks on this show.

The whiny American kids voice does grate a bit, but actually thought it was very interesting and analytical

The only thing that slightly disappointed me is that Tim Stillman expresses disappointment that the fans singing "we want Wenger out". I'm sorry pal, no one wants to have to be doing this but if it's what it takes.....

Though again that's his opinion, I thought the match analysis was pretty good

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Elliot is very good and his legal background is no surprise once you've heard him present an argument.

[Power n Glory]

Elliott is good. They all are. Prefer it over Gooner Ramble but I don't mind when Clive steps in for Tim.

I'm glad they steer clear away from the Wenger in and out debate when they can. They focus more on the game and it's what keeps me listening. The Wenger debate gets boring and partly why I don't read arseblog.com or Le Grove as much.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think the arseblog obsesses over the manager that much.

Yes it did have Phillipe Auclare on, on Friday to discuss the managerial structure at the club and the unlikelihood of Wenger going in the summer but mainly it focuses on the game and the players (albeit not in the same analytical way as the Arsenal vision one). I generally feel Andrew doesn't take a direct stance on the manager he's just sick of the same old.

Le Grove of course is obsessed with Wenger

[Letters]

Haven't read all of this but definitely agree with the headlines

http://www.afc4life.co.uk/2017/02/07/here-is-a-list-of-every-single-problem-with-arsenal-football-club/

[Marc Overmars]

I think the mentality from that list is the main for me. I mean, there must be a will to win because they wouldn't have made it as professionals otherwise, however some players want it more than others and I just don't see enough of a hunger with us. Being 2nd best is accepted and there needs to be a dramatic change in culture if we're going to be serious contenders for the major prizes. I don't think any of the major clubs have the "oh it could be worse" attitude like we do.

I despise Chelsea but one thing I wish we had from them is that innate and rabid desire to win. Right from Abramovich down to the cunts on the pitch, if you're not winning, you're out.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

https://positivelyarsenal.com/2017/02/08/lets-step-back-to-go-forward/

This is the kind of mentality we are fighting against in the stands

[AFC Leveller]

Agreed. It sounds like a commentary on the usual reluctance to use width, pace and a coherent shape. I guess it's no big deal because this is obvious to everyone except Wenger. Wenger must have the ability to completely block out this kind of stuff so I doubt he'll be able to hear what Kos said.

from Arseblog:

We asked our pal Philippe Auclair to have a look at the original video for us, broadcast on SFR, to see if this was really the case.

This is what Koscielny said in French, verbatim:

“Je pense qu’on s’est beaucoup marché dessus. On aurait dû jouer comme une équipe, ce qui n’a pas été le cas. Ils nous ont surtout eu en contre, s’est plaint l’international tricolore. On doit revenir à ce qu’on sait faire et retrouver notre qualité dans le jeu, les passes et les mouvements.”

And this is Philippe’s translation:

“I think we walked over each other’s feet a lot [ie we were not disciplined enough]. We should have played as a team, which wasn’t the case. More than anything, they ‘had’ us on counter-attacks. We must get back to what we know how to do [best] and find our quality again in the game [‘jeu’ is untranslatable, I’m afraid], our passing and movement”.

which as i suspected, he meant that the players were crowding eachother out, nothing to do with team election.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://positivelyarsenal.com/2017/02/08/lets-step-back-to-go-forward/

This is the kind of mentality we are fighting against in the stands

"Of course we're not Aston Villa, we're not going to get relegated... BUT IF WENGER GOES WE'RE GOING TO GET RELEGATED AND THE WHOLE WORLD WILL END!"

This has parallels with recent politics. What we have is not working, but if we change it - it may not work.

Like death and taxes, these disciples of Wenger need to recognise an inevitable reality. At some point Wenger has to go. He has to. He's mortal. Even if he stays for the rest of his life, his life will eventually end and then (unless we go all Chinese) he'll have to go. I hope we can agree on that at least, if Wenger dies of old age then it would be appropriate for a new manager to be appointed. Once you finally accept that concept, the inevitability of Wenger leaving at some point, it then becomes possible to consider him leaving before his death. Theoretically at least.

With a careful recounting of the facts, the record of the last 10 years, a reminder of what we are in this football thing to achieve and perhaps some good psychiatric help and post event grief counselling it may just be possible to get these people onside. Maybe.

[Niall_Quinn]

from Arseblog:

We asked our pal Philippe Auclair to have a look at the original video for us, broadcast on SFR, to see if this was really the case.

This is what Koscielny said in French, verbatim:

“Je pense qu’on s’est beaucoup marché dessus. On aurait dû jouer comme une équipe, ce qui n’a pas été le cas. Ils nous ont surtout eu en contre, s’est plaint l’international tricolore. On doit revenir à ce qu’on sait faire et retrouver notre qualité dans le jeu, les passes et les mouvements.”

And this is Philippe’s translation:

“I think we walked over each other’s feet a lot [ie we were not disciplined enough]. We should have played as a team, which wasn’t the case. More than anything, they ‘had’ us on counter-attacks. We must get back to what we know how to do [best] and find our quality again in the game [‘jeu’ is untranslatable, I’m afraid], our passing and movement”.

which as i suspected, he meant that the players were crowding eachother out, nothing to do with team election.

Fake news legacy media. They do it all the time.

[Marc Overmars]

https://positivelyarsenal.com/2017/02/08/lets-step-back-to-go-forward/

This is the kind of mentality we are fighting against in the stands

Ironic that the ones who portray themselves as positive are the ones who are actually the most negative about our future.

Terrible article.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The guy is a complete prat, northerner who never goes to games but his Twitter feed is festooned with criticising fellow fans

[Marc Overmars]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=215&v=_Qmw_bhDji0

Get this bloke on Sky!

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=215&v=_Qmw_bhDji0

Get this bloke on Sky!

Genuinely perplexed by what Burley is on about. We're through to the next round of the FA Cup, secondfourth in the table, we're in the CL, we're in a new stadium, we have two world class players who might stay. We've never had it so good. And yet this guy is complaining. It's mystifying.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Little harsh on the Arsenal fans but generally quite refreshing to see someone totally unconnected to Arsenal come out and say that.

It's not that Gary Neville and Thierry Henry don't think the same, it's just that they think they are bound by some code of honour which means they can pan the mentality of the team but appear to suffer from cognitive dissonance when it comes to Arsene Wenger.

John Cross doesn't believe what he writes, but wants the soapy tit wank reward of flattering narratives

[Power n Glory]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=215&v=_Qmw_bhDji0

Get this bloke on Sky!

Well….well…..who you going to get to replace Wenger? ;) Harsh but true. Was reminded when on a podcast that Gazidis said it’s the fans that will decide Wenger’s future. Spineless abdication from the Board but he’s not wrong. From the fans to the Board, the inactivity and silence sums up the club. We’re not all going to agree on the method of protest but along as something is done is what counts.

[Niall_Quinn]

Agree on the method of protest? Wenger's mob only agree that if any protest occurs they will shut it down, using abuse and violence if necessary.

[Power n Glory]

Agree on the method of protest? Wenger's mob only agree that if any protest occurs they will shut it down, using abuse and violence if necessary.

Was checking to see if anyone caught fighting gets banned. Idea being that if you don't like the chants against the club, stay at home.

But came across this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/10/22/arsenal-urged-to-consider-banning-season-tickets-of-fans-who-fai/


Arsenal urged to consider banning season tickets of fans who fail to show up

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well….well…..who you going to get to replace Wenger? ;) Harsh but true. Was reminded when on a podcast that Gazidis said it’s the fans that will decide Wenger’s future. Spineless abdication from the Board but he’s not wrong. From the fans to the Board, the inactivity and silence sums up the club. We’re not all going to agree on the method of protest but along as something is done is what counts.

I think Gazidis really regrets making that statement which was clearly hyperbole on his part

Although Boyd Hilton gets very shrill he made the point on footballistically arsenal....the people who are pro wenger what do they get out of this, where is the excitement for them in being fans?.

For me they seem split into three groups

1) Those who believe Wenger can still get us to where we need to be

2) Those who believe the fans should be grateful for what we have, and we are where we should be

3) People who are unsatisfied but seem to think Wenger is owed eternal gratitude and should be able to set his own departure and should not be forced out

They are all in my opinion wrong, but i am a bit more sympathetic with the third group of people

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Was checking to see if anyone caught fighting gets banned. Idea being that if you don't like the chants against the club, stay at home.

But came across this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/10/22/arsenal-urged-to-consider-banning-season-tickets-of-fans-who-fai/

I'll be honest, i have said that i get fed up with people who turn up late and leave early.....but ultimately like people who choose not to turn up full stop, they have paid in full.

This is a club that would not deserve a fan base if it considered this, it's like EE cutting me off because i pay for a certain amount of data per month and only use a certain percentage of it....totally absurd.

[selassie]

Haven't read all of this but definitely agree with the headlines

http://www.afc4life.co.uk/2017/02/07/here-is-a-list-of-every-single-problem-with-arsenal-football-club/

Just read it. Very good article, it's very accurate IMO...not a dramatic piece or over the top, just pointing out all the main issues.

[Özim]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=215&v=_Qmw_bhDji0

Get this bloke on Sky!

Got to agree with what he says, year after year it's the same and yet protests are muted, those that do are crucified for it, I don't think you'd find another set of fans who would put up with this, how many times has Wenger had little digs at the fans as well?

I don't really understand this support, surely they must be able to see nothing will be different until something changes, who can honeslty be satisfied with seeing us fail every season but consider it a success because we qualified for the CL a competition where we get knocked out at the same stage year on year.


In reality there's no incentive to change things for the board, money is still rolling in, the fans are pretty subdued and happy to go along with anything they or the manager says or does.

[AFC Leveller]

I remember when Wenger said "this club had not so many CL league games before I came and have so many after me"

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Got to agree with what he says, year after year it's the same and yet protests are muted, those that do are crucified for it, I don't think you'd find another set of fans who would put up with this, how many times has Wenger had little digs at the fans as well?

I don't really understand this support, surely they must be able to see nothing will be different until something changes, who can honeslty be satisfied with seeing us fail every season but consider it a success because we qualified for the CL a competition where we get knocked out at the same stage year on year.


In reality there's no incentive to change things for the board, money is still rolling in, the fans are pretty subdued and happy to go along with anything they or the manager says or does.

If the fans were so shy and retiring would the board really need to recruit John Cross to do the kind of hatchet jobs he did in the Mirror

Whether more should be vociferous is really up to them, I think there is a sizeable minority who go to the Emirates prepared to shout them down either way and sometimes they might be inclined to think...is it worth the hassle.

I don't think anyone considers that we are succeeding even the most hardened Wenger supporters, they are either convinced he can turn it around or are fatalistic about the impact of the big money clubs (and yes they are clearly wrong...but they are entitled to that view).

But you consider yourself a supporter of Arsenal, what exactly have you done to bring about the end of Wenger's tenure?....apart from whinging on here.

I generally also think if the worst happens and he does sign an extension the attendance will go down, and i think there's only so much you can supplement that with tourists.

[Letters]

:lol:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/another-12-seasons-of-this-and-youre-fired-board-warns-wenger-20170210121905

[LDG]

I remember when Wenger said "this club had not so many CL league games before I came and have so many after me"

Yeah, 8 a season.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yeah, 8 a season.

that's not fair

It's 10 if we have to go through the third round qualifying process

[Power n Glory]

If the fans were so shy and retiring would the board really need to recruit John Cross to do the kind of hatchet jobs he did in the Mirror

Whether more should be vociferous is really up to them, I think there is a sizeable minority who go to the Emirates prepared to shout them down either way and sometimes they might be inclined to think...is it worth the hassle.

I don't think anyone considers that we are succeeding even the most hardened Wenger supporters, they are either convinced he can turn it around or are fatalistic about the impact of the big money clubs (and yes they are clearly wrong...but they are entitled to that view).

But you consider yourself a supporter of Arsenal, what exactly have you done to bring about the end of Wenger's tenure?....apart from whinging on here.

I generally also think if the worst happens and he does sign an extension the attendance will go down, and i think there's only so much you can supplement that with tourists.

I thought you agreed with Tim Stillman on his views of the Emirates crowd not being the same as what we see on social media? Fans that mostly go for a weekend routine and don't really talk about the match after? Something along those lines.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I thought you agreed with Tim Stillman on his views of the Emirates crowd not being the same as what we see on social media? Fans that mostly go for a weekend routine and don't really talk about the match after? Something along those lines.

1) Suggested it as a possible hypothesis the same way Stillman did

2) Even people who fall under that category might not be particularly happy with what's going on, they just don't see why it's up to them to do something.

3) There are enough fans who don't fall under that category both on social media and those who simply go to games who have made enough noise for the board to pay attention.

Actually i would say that it's quite consistent with what i've said that fans can protest as much as they want, but no-one should ever feel compelled to.

[Power n Glory]

1) Suggested it as a possible hypothesis the same way Stillman did

2) Even people who fall under that category might not be particularly happy with what's going on, they just don't see why it's up to them to do something.

3) There are enough fans who don't fall under that category both on social media and those who simply go to games who have made enough noise for the board to pay attention.

Actually i would say that it's quite consistent with what i've said that fans can protest as much as they want, but no-one should ever feel compelled to.

I should be able to find the post.


I know you like Tim Stillman and i sometimes read his column, he is of the opinion that the majority of fans that go to the Emirates week in week out aren't the same voices on the fan forums, on twitter etc during the week (and i tend to think he's got a point, i don't think many of us on here are season ticket holders).

Now this is not him or me saying the complaints are coming from people who aren't proper fans, it's just most of the Emirates crowd (and i say specifically the Emirates crowd) tend to be people who go to the Arsenal as a weekend routine, have their pie, buy their match day program and win, lose or draw go back and meet their mates or take the missus out for a meal without any further thought on the match.


If you remove the amount of Tourist fans from the equation (token amount) and that leaves a lot of fans, now doubtless Stillman is basing his opinion on anecdotal evidence of the type of fans he sits around when he goes to the Emirates himself but i wouldn't be surprised if what he says does have a ring of truth to it.

And i do think this sums up this reticence to protest at the ground, oh and just so there is no confusion i wasn't in anyway stating you did think people should be compelled to kick up a fuss.....i just think short of putting a rod up people's backsides (which is i think counter productive) I'm just not sure how you can create the atmosphere you (and to be fair I as well) am looking for at the Emirates.

The criticism from outsiders has a ring of truth to but I think it's what will spark the next big reaction if they keep having a pop at fans.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I should be able to find the post.





The criticism from outsiders has a ring of truth to but I think it's what will spark the next big reaction if they keep having a pop at fans.

I don't disagree with that assessment, i think certainly so if Wenger comes out with what he did last April about the home fans being responsible for poor results

People who pay a lot of money to go and watch the game won't take kindly to that.

[Power n Glory]

I don't disagree with that assessment, i think certainly so if Wenger comes out with what he did last April about the home fans being responsible for poor results

People who pay a lot of money to go and watch the game won't take kindly to that.

Tomorrow is a must win game for all the wrong reasons. The reaction on all ends will be interesting.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Tomorrow is a must win game for all the wrong reasons. The reaction on all ends will be interesting.

Well we have three very tough fixtures for Wenger at completley the wrong time for him

Wednesday in Munich, Then in 2 and a half weeks away at Anfield (with only Sutton in between) and then the return leg at home to Bayern.

Fails to win all three of those games and i think the ledge falls away from under his feet, yes only he decides his future but he knows deep down he has to justify even to himself a contract extension (thus why he waited until after the fa cup in 2014 to sign an extension, i actually believe he wouldn't have signed an extension if we hadn't recovered against Hull).