Match Reaction vs Bayern Munich (home)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The £100m we can afford to spend each season is from what we generate from the stadium, sponsorship deals and TV money I suspect. I don't think any of the money spent has come from us having to dip into the money we have in the bank. What is it? £200m?

We can't compete with those clubs when it comes to the quantity of players and can't afford to stockpile players. I think Chelsea have learned from that episode and City may follow considering how things are going for them.

With the money we generate, we should be able to match them 11 v 11. That Chelsea team top of the table aren't that better than us man for man either and that was the consensus earlier in the season.

Sanchez and Ozil are in and around the same quality bracket as Hazard and Costa but other than that they are superior to us in every area of the pitch.

Now is that as much Wenger's fault as it is the spending differential?....Yeah of course.....but they've dropped 15 points this season.....i think even if a better manager was getting the best out of our current squad that would be very tough to match.

[Power n Glory]

Why are we talking about money anyway? We're struggling to compete with Spurs.
There was a time when money was a factor in why we weren't competing, it's not a factor now.


Exactly.

[IBK]

I just want to go into big games not knowing what the outcome is, having my palms sweaty before the game because it could go either way. I am sick of knowing almost with 100% certainty how our games against the big guys are going to be like. There have been a few outliers like the win against Barcelona at home, against City away and Chelsea this season which does make me sit up and take notice but you know that these victories are more anomalies than the norm.

Frankly, I just want to get excited about the club again.

This. :gp:

[Power n Glory]

Sorry £113 million, obviously i'm wildly distorting (False information ha ha)

Chelsea have spent 300 million in transfers in the past three seasons, they have recouped more by getting rid of players they didn't need

But again you miss my point, whether you want to accept it or not the tv money has inflated the value of players we'd look to bring in from abroad. This is why we had to pay over 70million just for Mustafi and Xhaka, why Leroy Sane cost Man City over 40 million etc.

A Griezmann a year or so ago would cost about 40 million, now it's between 60-70 million.

Now will Chelsea spend 180million a year every year? No because they won't need to because they have the most settled squad at the moment, but the idea that they couldn't is absurd.

City and United are no where near where they want to be so they will continue spending in the 150million+ bracket until it works for them

We cannot spend that much

How much money have Arsenal spent over the last 4 windows?

How much would it have cost us to sign Kante, Gabriel Jesus and Mkhitaryan?

There is inflation and there is poor decision making.

[Power n Glory]

Sigh.....it's simply to clarify to people that even when we get rid of Wenger we won't be going toe to toe with Chelsea, City and United every season

People here seem to think it's a be careful what you wish for argument, it's a "he's got to go but don't expect miracles" argument


Are you a mind reader? No one has said that. It's just what you're saying is wrong. The numbers don't add up. I'm just looking at the facts.

[Power n Glory]

Sanchez and Ozil are in and around the same quality bracket as Hazard and Costa but other than that they are superior to us in every area of the pitch.

Now is that as much Wenger's fault as it is the spending differential?....Yeah of course.....but they've dropped 15 points this season.....i think even if a better manager was getting the best out of our current squad that would be very tough to match.

Did you say that when the season started? I'm I lying when people were saying the team looked good enough to compete and we didn't need anyone in the January window? Or did you hold a different view and think we needed to spend £150m to get close to Chelsea?

[IBK]

Mentality is often not enough without money, Money is significantly dented without Mentality. You need both.

People laud Simeone because of Atletis mentality, but they have not been able to break the two club domination in Spain of Barca and Real....that's not a failing. It's just understanding that money is the most important factor in the game, not the only one but the most important for sure.

I think honestly some users on here are frightened to face this reality because it will appear like an excuse for Wenger. We can definitely do better, we can compete but without Kroenke paying out of his pocket we won't be able to break the city-United-Chelsea hegemony, anymore than Atletico can break the Real-Barca one.

I get what you are saying. But it's a mixture of factors, really. If I can be controversial and give Wenger 'credit' for something, in his successful years he showed that there is an alternative route to success - namely buying and developing good but not already 'world class players' and in a sense, we have become conditioned to this approach. I believe firmly that our current squad has more in them than recent results suggest, but the manager has become stale, his tactical shortcomings have been exposed, and the team has lost the togetherness and self-belief that will elevate them. The right manager would IMHO get a lot more out of them - we have as good a squad as the Spuds, for instance. Whether this would be sufficient to compete consistently with the big money teams you have mentioned is doubtful, but we have to accept that we will never adopt the 'star signings' approach that has characterised the very top teams. I think that a club of our resources should be able to challenge for top honours from time to time, but competition is an unfortunate fact of life. Spending massive amounts is undoubtedly the best way to ensure that you are in with a realistic chance of winning the league season in season out, but it is not the only way to achieve occasional success - with the resources available to us. Where we are at present however is someway short of this aim - and we need to think realistically, and our approach needs to be to have a team that we can at least feel has the tools/ability to win against the top teams in any given game. The depressing atmosphere surrounding our club ATM is because currently I don't think we have this. A new manager will hopefully provide the tools - then we build from there.

[Niall_Quinn]

Why are we talking about money anyway? We're struggling to compete with Spurs.
There was a time when money was a factor in why we weren't competing, it's not a factor now.

That's right. There's a lot more to it than just the money. There needs to be a long term plan how money is used and it needs to dovetail into building a squad that can compete. Some of the money doesn't go on transfers at all, it goes into spotting, signing and developing the next Harry Kane or Deli Alli. The spuds still haven't won anything, but you can see there's a plan in place for them, following on from a period where they splurged with the Bale money. But the have clearly learned their lessons. Square pegs in square holes, you use what you have to buy or otherwise obtain what you need. Then you get a smart manager to organise the squad and send them out to execute a clearly defined plan.

Our summer window was panic, not planning. And because so many windows before that were similar it has resulted in a giant mess. A lot of money has been spent and we still have the wrong players in the wrong positions looking totally disorganised and without a plan. The defence is a shambles. All this time later is seems we have one guy, Kos, who can actually defend.

What we have needed for many seasons is a quality striker. We've used Alexis to plug that hole short term but now he's off in the summer and a whole bunch of transfer windows later look where we'll be. Back where we started with Bif up front. Even if we had more money I doubt Wenger could use it effectively. He's the problem, not the lack of money.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Are you a mind reader? No one has said that. It's just what you're saying is wrong. The numbers don't add up. I'm just looking at the facts.

No I'd be wrong if I'd stated that Chelsea had spent that much, but I've said from the outset that they haven't needed to

Has our spending been poor? Of course but I'm not talking about our decision making im talking about our spending power relative to the three clubs I've mentioned.

It doesn't require tea leaf reading. It requires only understanding that tv money has inflated the market and that United, City and Chelsea can outspend us.

The correlation between spending and trophies and the fact that the three clubs spending ability is largely unrestrained doesn't require me to be a mind reader.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Did you say that when the season started? I'm I lying when people were saying the team looked good enough to compete and we didn't need anyone in the January window? Or did you hold a different view and think we needed to spend £150m to get close to Chelsea?

At the start of the season we hadn't bought anyone and when the transfer window was closed we were five points behind the leaders.
Looking at the squad it's clear they have underperformed and that's very much oh the manager, but what cannot be ignored is a team that I state has dropped 15 points all season. Now Conte is a good manager but no I don't believe we could have competed this season with a side that has won 21 out of 27 games, it would be very difficult.

And that's a result of proven quality, the kind of proven quality that we wouldn't be able to catch up with by one summers spending

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I find it curious how every refutation of my point comes back to Wenger

How many times do I have to say it, the guy is a disaster

There isn't even an argument to be made that he's helping the club financially so even from a business perspective he's holding us back.

But to break it down again, two clubs with billionaire oligarch owners and one with obscene revenue streams

We can be doing better, but competing every season no.....competing full stop will be nice.

[Power n Glory]

I find it curious how every refutation of my point comes back to Wenger

How many times do I have to say it, the guy is a disaster

There isn't even an argument to be made that he's helping the club financially so even from a business perspective he's holding us back.

But to break it down again, two clubs with billionaire oligarch owners and one with obscene revenue streams

We can be doing better, but competing every season no.....competing full stop will be nice.

Who are you talking to? That can't be me.

[Power n Glory]

How much would it have cost us to sign Kante, Gabriel Jesus and Mkhitaryan?

You've avoid this one too. Transfer made this season and plenty of others around the same price tag we could have brought in that would tally up to around £100m.

[Niall_Quinn]

No I'd be wrong if I'd stated that Chelsea had spent that much, but I've said from the outset that they haven't needed to

Has our spending been poor? Of course but I'm not talking about our decision making im talking about our spending power relative to the three clubs I've mentioned.

It doesn't require tea leaf reading. It requires only understanding that tv money has inflated the market and that United, City and Chelsea can outspend us.

The correlation between spending and trophies and the fact that the three clubs spending ability is largely unrestrained doesn't require me to be a mind reader.

That's why we can't compete.

We may not have as much to spend, but we've had plenty enough to build a decent squad of players up to the task. Hell, even Leicester could pull off a title win. A one-off. For sure. But you still can't discount they needed the right players at the right time and in the right frame of mind to get the job done. That's what we are lacking at this club. With our extra resources we should at least be able to do as well as Leicester's one-off, but we haven't managed even that. Truth of it is we should be able to do a lot better. We're not asking for a title win every season, but we're demanding a title challenge every season and that should be the absolute minimum for a club of this stature.

The money is becoming more and more of an excuse and less and less of a valid reason to hide behind. During the stadium move, fair enough, we'd committed our resources elsewhere. But why did we commit those resources at all? Well it's claimed it was to compete at the top level of the game. Yes, things have changed against our favour. Abramovich dumped his cash, Arabs pitched up, the economy tanked. But things have gone in our favour too and we haven't capitalised. Huge amounts of new revenue came into the game and IIRC we have had more of these resources than anyone so far. Maybe that has now changed but last season we topped the charts in match day revenue and TV revenue. We've seen our major rivals in turmoil. Utd dropped out of the top 4. The chavs and gypos have been playing manager merrygoround and slipped to the extent Leicester could sneak in. FFP for a while at least put the brakes on the big spenders and forced them to reconfigure. All these things should have worked for us and helped us bridge the gap but we still ended up trailing double figures behind the champions. It's nowhere near good enough. Not even close. It's consistent incompetence and failure on a grand scale and no amount of excuses explain it away.

If Alexis was on a 5 year contract right now he'd be worth 60 mill. If we had a manager who could utilise Ozil and Ozil was on a contract, he'd be worth 60 mill too. Bellerin would probably go for 60 mill. So it's possible for us to have multiple 60 mill rated players on the books, even if we don't actually spend that amount to get them or if we have to bring them through the ranks. We just don't have a manager who can use these players effectively. We don't have a backroom team that can pin these players down. We don't compete on the field so can't keep these players happy. What's any of it to do with Man Utd's finances?

We have Wenger in the papers today, oh yes, I "approached" the next big name in football. Well why didn't you sign him before he's 60 mill, you arse? Why even approach these players if you don't act? How much would it have taken to prise him away? And if we don't want to go there then get Giroud off the books and buy a ready made solution. There were options out there. All of them passed up because Wenger won't do what he needs to do with the squad. For some reason he continues to think Giroud is a top striker. So we carry Giroud's costs and then can't find the additional to bring in the genuine article. What's any of that to do with Utd's finances?

Wenger can't manage the squad, that's what's really holding us back. That's what's really causing the gap between ourselves and the teams we could indeed be competing with, despite their wealth. Even with Wenger in charge and another shit show of a season unfolding, even then, how far behind the gypos are we? And we're actually ahead of Utd, though maybe not for long. But ask yourself if we could improve with a more focused, more ambitious, better planner at the helm? How could we not? Do we need a billion quid on top to then give this guy what he needs to use what we already have to start bridging the gap? I don't think so. Give him enough cash for the two missing pieces (the striker and the leader in the middle) and we're in business. Maybe we still come up short but I bet it wouldn't be by that laughable 13/ 14 points we always trail in.

The fans aren't asking for millions being dumped every transfer window. They are asking for a competitive squad. If that really is beyond a club of Arsenal's size, if we really don't have the resources available to mount a title challenge well then that's the biggest indictment of Wenger yet. All this time and we have no realistic chance of getting within a sniff of the chavs and gypos? I don't buy it. What I see is a greedy old bastard who own the place and an incompetent and stubborn old fool who runs it. That's why we can't compete. No need to look at other clubs for the answer.

[Globalgunner]

We could be buying 100m players, IF we were a better run club. If we had built on the legend of the invincibles and pursued a business strategy of success bringing finsncial rewards. We could have doubled our sponsorship tab to what RM Barca and Utd are getting. We could have companies sponsoring our toilet roll like United are simply because companies want to be associated with success. Not with teams that are regularly humbled by their opposition and walloped 10-2 in the CL. Instead we went with the vision of a timid manager whose only guiding principle is self preservation. We could have been the club that was sold to us when leaving Highbury. Instead of being Lions staking out territory in the Savannah. We are Circus cats standing on our hinds for titbits

[selassie]

That's right. There's a lot more to it than just the money. There needs to be a long term plan how money is used and it needs to dovetail into building a squad that can compete. Some of the money doesn't go on transfers at all, it goes into spotting, signing and developing the next Harry Kane or Deli Alli. The spuds still haven't won anything, but you can see there's a plan in place for them, following on from a period where they splurged with the Bale money. But the have clearly learned their lessons. Square pegs in square holes, you use what you have to buy or otherwise obtain what you need. Then you get a smart manager to organise the squad and send them out to execute a clearly defined plan.

Our summer window was panic, not planning. And because so many windows before that were similar it has resulted in a giant mess. A lot of money has been spent and we still have the wrong players in the wrong positions looking totally disorganised and without a plan. The defence is a shambles. All this time later is seems we have one guy, Kos, who can actually defend.

What we have needed for many seasons is a quality striker. We've used Alexis to plug that hole short term but now he's off in the summer and a whole bunch of transfer windows later look where we'll be. Back where we started with Bif up front. Even if we had more money I doubt Wenger could use it effectively. He's the problem, not the lack of money.

:gp:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You've avoid this one too. Transfer made this season and plenty of others around the same price tag we could have brought in that would tally up to around £100m.

Don't know why we didn't sign Mikhytarian, possibly because Wenger thought we had enough attacking midfielders, however is he the quality of an Aubemeyang or a Griezmann who can also play wide? No he's not and they would cost twice as much

By August our priority was a centre back, a defensive midfielder and a striker

When you have a transfer budget that incorporates wages as well as the transfer fee, it's a bit more difficult to say this player is good value player I'll have that. Does that excuse Wenger for dithering and signing Lucas and Mustafi as panic signings no.

Would Kante have joined us over Chelsea, they'd simply be able to outbid us on wages.

Of course when Mahrez and Vardy decide they'd rather stay at Leicester than come to us you know you have a problem.

[Niall_Quinn]

We could be buying 100m players, IF we were a better run club. If we had built on the legend of the invincibles and pursued a business strategy of success bringing finsncial rewards. We could have doubled our sponsorship tab to what RM Barca and Utd are getting. We could have companies sponsoring our toilet roll like United are simply because companies want to be associated with success. Not with teams that are regularly humbled by their opposition and walloped 10-2 in the CL. Instead we went with the vision of a timid manager whose only guiding principle is self preservation. We could have been the club that was sold to us when leaving Highbury. Instead of being Lions staking out territory in the Savannah. We are Circus cats standing on our hinds for titbits

That's right. The sustainability model has killed us. All it has resulted in is the owners having a reliable and predictable asset while the fans end up with a predictably unreliable team. The precise opposite of the promises made prior to the stadium move. The owners and the manager are responsible for this, not Man Utd. Just a little bit more investment during some of those barren transfer windows, just a little bit more willingness from the manager to adapt and show a bit of ambition on the pitch, just a bit more interest from the crappy owner, that might have been enough. As it is, nothing has ever been done to benefit the team on the pitch. All of it has been done to benefit the few. Sustainability has been one giant con. You speculate to accumulate, you don't sit there and say hold, hold, hold. This is the cray thing. These rich bastards could be even richer if they had opted to gamble once.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's right. The sustainability model has killed us. .

But realistically it's not going anywhere, it's about working with what money we can spend not money we think we should spend.

Again that money has not been spent well, bloated wage bill considering how many non performers we have in the side.

But i'm prepared to make a bet with anyone here that if Wenger goes this season, the next ten seasons onwards 80% at the minimum of the titles will be won by Chelsea, United or City.

[selassie]

But realistically it's not going anywhere, it's about working with what money we can spend not money we think we should spend.

Again that money has not been spent well, bloated wage bill considering how many non performers we have in the side.

But i'm prepared to make a bet with anyone here that if Wenger goes this season, the next ten seasons onwards 80% at the minimum of the titles will be won by Chelsea, United or City.

You are probably right regarding the probability of the dopers sharing title wins in the future. The thing is I don't think anyone is demanding titles, I think people just want to see us improve, to at least properly challenge for the title once in a while, to not collapse domestically and in europe at the same point in the season every year.

We just need change now, a new approach. We need to see flexibility and a sense of excitement in the way the football team is run. I personally believe an ambitious driven manager can go some way towards giving us that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You are probably right regarding the probability of the dopers sharing title wins in the future. The thing is I don't think anyone is demanding titles, I think people just want to see us improve, to at least properly challenge for the title once in a while, to not collapse domestically and in europe at the same point in the season every year.

We just need change now, a new approach. We need to see flexibility and a sense of excitement in the way the football team is run. I personally believe an ambitious driven manager can go some way towards giving us that.

And I totally agree, I just wonder if everyone is quite so realistic

[Niall_Quinn]

But realistically it's not going anywhere, it's about working with what money we can spend not money we think we should spend.

Again that money has not been spent well, bloated wage bill considering how many non performers we have in the side.

But i'm prepared to make a bet with anyone here that if Wenger goes this season, the next ten seasons onwards 80% at the minimum of the titles will be won by Chelsea, United or City.

I think anyone who bets 10 years into the future in this football environment is a hard core gambler who likes big risks. Look at how the game has changed in the last 10 years. Any assumption it will plough on in the same way as we see it now is wishful thinking. More likely in 10 years we'll be watching Europe's 32 "elite" clubs competing in their own league and national football will have been reduced to a Sunday pastime. 2019 seems to be the date the top clubs have rallied around to start putting this nightmare vision in place and Arsenal are form believers and locked in. What a surprise. Our ambition is Top 4 for ever and ever, amen. We'll never have to qualify again. And we'll never have to win again because we'll always be in it. We shouldn't even be comparing ourselves to the chavs and gypos, we aren't in the same business as them. Until our whole attitude changes as a club then the real reason we won't be competing is because our agenda and focus is elsewhere. You've heard Wenger. Let those grubby money clubs compete. They'll never win the Moral Superiority Cup like we have the last 13 seasons.

We literally have a manager who has created imaginary trophies to win because the club don't have an interest in winning the real trophies. And half the fans have celebrated! Wenger is striding through the streets buck naked and Chris and Ty are admiring his new threads.

[Power n Glory]

Don't know why we didn't sign Mikhytarian, possibly because Wenger thought we had enough attacking midfielders, however is he the quality of an Aubemeyang or a Griezmann who can also play wide? No he's not and they would cost twice as much

By August our priority was a centre back, a defensive midfielder and a striker

When you have a transfer budget that incorporates wages as well as the transfer fee, it's a bit more difficult to say this player is good value player I'll have that. Does that excuse Wenger for dithering and signing Lucas and Mustafi as panic signings no.

Would Kante have joined us over Chelsea, they'd simply be able to outbid us on wages.

Of course when Mahrez and Vardy decide they'd rather stay at Leicester than come to us you know you have a problem.

I’ve said this before but the cost of strikers have gone up because there aren’t that many world class strikers around that have records of putting 30+ goals away a season. Prices being touted around for Griezmann and what Higuin went for can’t be seen as the norm for every position. For strikers, you have to be prepared to take a risk on a kid with raw talent. Gabriel Jesus went for around £30m, Gabriel Barbosa went for £25m and now we’re hearing about Wenger spotting Mbappe before anyone else.

We were linked with Griezmann before he went to Atleitico. He cost them £25m but we instead went for Welbeck (£17m). As said above, there are strikers out there we could have bought before the price tag rocketed and the same applies today but we’re taking a bigger risk because most of them are unproven.


By August our priority was a centre back, a defensive midfielder and a striker

Again, were there no players available that we couldn't have bought for a £100m?


When you have a transfer budget that incorporates wages as well as the transfer fee

And where did you get that information from? I remember some years back you made the same assumption when we signed Ozil and said all the money went on that deal. Can we stick to the facts and not make assumptions? We're only talking about transfer fees and this just reminds me of the conversations being had back when didn't have this much money to spend but fans were jumping to conclusions based of ambiguous statements from Wenger and the club.

[Power n Glory]

And I totally agree, I just wonder if everyone is quite so realistic

Everyone that's chimed in on this has said the exact same thing! Who have you spoken to that hasn't been realistic?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We're only talking about transfer fees and this just reminds me of the conversations being had back when didn't have this much money to spend but fans were jumping to conclusions based of ambiguous statements from Wenger and the club.

With the culture of Omerta at Arsenal you can only go on what's reported and what is frequently reported that the transfer budget given to Wenger incorporates both the transfer fee and the players wages....now obviously most transfer deals are paid incrementally rather than a one lump sum so that would factor in as well.

It's not about saying 100 million isn't enough to sign the players we need and Wenger clearly did botch the summer, but the point is you randomly throw Mikhytarian or Gabriel Jesus into the mix, and you could argue that if we have three defined positions we need to strengthen.....that players of that kind are secondary considerations....nice but not essential.

We have always assumed Wenger was constantly lying about previously not having the money to spend and was just reluctant to spend money, now whether we think he has spent wisely or not that myth has been totally busted.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Everyone that's chimed in on this has said the exact same thing! Who have you spoken to that hasn't been realistic?

I'm sorry were you not stating earlier that, that kind of thinking was part of the small club mentality that Wenger had indoctrinated into fans?

[Power n Glory]

I'm sorry were you not stating earlier that, that kind of thinking was part of the small club mentality that Wenger had indoctrinated into fans?

And where in that was I demanding that we win the title every season? Nobody has formed that argument and I'm unsure where that train of thought comes from.

[selassie]

I'm sorry were you not stating earlier that, that kind of thinking was part of the small club mentality that Wenger had indoctrinated into fans?

Many of us were touching on this Herb, not just Dog. I made the point of posting Bayern's response from being humbled by Barca in CL in 2009 compared it to Wenger's after our embarrassing exit to Bayern a few days ago. Wenger has defiantly stated that there is nothing wrong with the football team and we are in great shape blah blah blah.

The mentality was and is like night and day and for me, Wenger has indoctrinated a small time mentality into the Football Club, there is no two ways about that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And where in that was I demanding that we win the title every season? Nobody has formed that argument and I'm unsure where that train of thought comes from.

I'm not sure either, because i've not tried to claim that

What i've stated is that 80% minimum of the titles will still be going to chelsea, man united and man city.....that is of course without factoring in the variables that NQ has stated.

[Power n Glory]

Many of us were touching on this Herb, not just Dog. I made the point of posting Bayern's response from being humbled by Barca in CL in 2009 compared it to Wenger's after our embarrassing exit to Bayern a few days ago. Wenger has defiantly stated that there is nothing wrong with the football team and we are in great shape blah blah blah.

The mentality was and is like night and day and for me, Wenger has indoctrinated a small time mentality into the Football Club, there is no two ways about that.

Yep. It was good post and shows the stark contrast in mentality.