Match Reaction vs Stoke City (away)

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Hungry for Oatcake.

Holding. :bow:

Played well and took Arnautovic out.

Crouch is disgusting filth along with the rest of them.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger out!

[The Verminator]

Wenger out!

Agreed but great showing today, really enjoyed that. :)

[selassie]

We were ruthless today, really good and solid performance from back to front. Here'a hoping the dippers drop points tomorrow because I can't see us making top 4 if they don't. Top 4 is a real possibility now, fair play to the lads for making a go of it.

[Niall_Quinn]

So was Ozil good or bad in that game?

Theory says he doesn't like it up'im away at Stoke. But between himself, Alexis, Coquelin and Xhaka they kicked orc butt.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm forever blowing bubbles...

[Globalgunner]

Fellowship of the top 4.:cheer:

Only need some giant eagles to carry us there and tear up the Liverpudlians.

[Niall_Quinn]

Oi - you nicked my thread!

Wenger out should be #1 post. Nothing changes.

Satisfying result though.

[GP]

Holding though...

[Globalgunner]

West Ham have done us great favours in the past. Hope it continues 2mrw.

Wenger out BTW!

[Niall_Quinn]

Holding though...

Proof will be next season. Any defender who can survive 2 seasons under Wenger is big news.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Holding's interview. :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oi - you nicked my thread!

Wenger out should be #1 post. Nothing changes.

Satisfying result though.

Should be the fourth post strictly speaking.

[Power n Glory]

We were ruthless today, really good and solid performance from back to front. Here'a hoping the dippers drop points tomorrow because I can't see us making top 4 if they don't. Top 4 is a real possibility now, fair play to the lads for making a go of it.

I'd have more respect for them if they'd have turned on that sort of performance against Spurs. Absolute fuckers for turning up to fight for 4th.

[Niall_Quinn]

Should be the fourth post strictly speaking.

No. My title was quality. Yours was pure establishment.

I got the clicks. You rigged the system to restore the status quo.

Doesn't matter. Eventually the people will rise up.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'd have more respect for them if they'd have turned on that sort of performance against Spurs. Absolute fuckers for turning up to fight for 4th.

Yeah. Nothing changes. It's a fucked season and we're clawing our way to the very edge of the action. There's nothing to crow about in the big scheme. But as a one off, sweet to thump the orcs in their pit.

[Power n Glory]

Typical fuckers laughing off Crouch handball. If he were foreign they'd be slating him and not calling it smart and showing experience.

[Niall_Quinn]

We have to keep Alexis. As a club, if we have any ambition, we have to keep him.

[Power n Glory]

So was Ozil good or bad in that game?

Theory says he doesn't like it up'im away at Stoke. But between himself, Alexis, Coquelin and Xhaka they kicked orc butt.

Better game from Ozil. You can tell when he's on his game.

[Globalgunner]

I'd have more respect for them if they'd have turned on that sort of performance against Spurs. Absolute fuckers for turning up to fight for 4th.

Agreed. Any Arsenal team that puts out that pathetic performance against Spurs can get no love from me. Spineless morons. Top 4. Its nice but irrelevant. More hammerings against the elite clubs are our continued fate under Wenger. He will tell us close season that he has searched the world and not found a better AM than rancid Ramsey. Bull!

[Niall_Quinn]

The Wenger thing is over. He's going to waltz through the raindrops - AGAIN. So forget about him, we can't do anything about it.

But when Dean applied the pressure and the orcs started following Hughes' Plan B (can't win so kick and elbow them), we actually stepped up today. Sure, they don't get medals for doing it 5% of the time. But there was a little bit of what makes football worthwhile wrapped in that match. Got the blood flowing at least. Fucking hate those orcs and we just stuffed them on their own patch, despite their antics and the intervention of Dean. Sweet enough for this one weekend.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Typical fuckers laughing off Crouch handball. If he were foreign they'd be slating him and not calling it smart and showing experience.

SSN aren't even mentioning it as a handball at all, he just pulled the game back.

[Power n Glory]

The Wenger thing is over. He's going to waltz through the raindrops - AGAIN. So forget about him, we can't do anything about it.

But when Dean applied the pressure and the orcs started following Hughes' Plan B (can't win so kick and elbow them), we actually stepped up today. Sure, they don't get medals for doing it 5% of the time. But there was a little bit of what makes football worthwhile wrapped in that match. Got the blood flowing at least. Fucking hate those orcs and we just stuffed them on their own patch, despite their antics and the intervention of Dean. Sweet enough for this one weekend.

He's more likely to dance through the raindrops if he's able to convince the Board he's able to turn things around. If he walks into the contract talks with zero leverage and doesn't deliver a damn thing on the footballing or financial side, there is more of chance he's shown the exit. I don't care about the Top 4 because we're going to lose Sanchez anyway and we have no chance of winning the competition.

[AFC Leveller]

Great win, some really good individual performances and another solid game from Holding.

If Liverpool win tomorrow then I can't see us catching them considering they have boro at home as their last game. City were a bit lucky today with that Mahrez penalty and should have drawn. They have West Bromwich at home and then go to Watford so hopefully they drop points.

Al I care about right now is the final, if we can produce anything like we did today then we should match them. Wenger cannot go into that game with a negative approach, he has to show some balls and go for it.

[selassie]

I'd have more respect for them if they'd have turned on that sort of performance against Spurs. Absolute fuckers for turning up to fight for 4th.

Yeah me too, this season on the whole has been nothing short of a disgrace.

About top 4, I had written it off weeks ago so getting it now would be a nice surprise, more so for seeing the Dippers bottle it, up until now they have been 2nd, 3rd and 4th pretty much all season.

Nothing changes for me irrespective of where we finish and how we do in the FA Cup Final, Wenger has to go...

[LDG]

I hate Stoke inbred cunts.

It makes me happy we stopped their breeding for a day.

Disgusting Pulises.

[Marc Overmars]

4th place cup. :cloud9:

It's coming home.

[Niall_Quinn]

The match against Stoke marked the 100th consecutive Arsenal starting line-up which didn't include their club captain.

Often criticised as lacking leaders in the Arsenal team the statistic demonstrates the injury problems suffered by current captain Per Mertesacker and predecessor Mikel Arteta.

The last time a club captain started a match for the Gunners was back in November 2014 when Arteta was skipper.

100 consecutive games since our captain started? :wacko:

[Marc Overmars]

Arteta was a glorified cheerleader in the end, much like Merts is now.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Should be the fourth post strictly speaking.

LOL!!!

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I predicted ages ago we would get top 4 and probably not win the FA cup.....I hope I'm wrong or half wrong!

[Power n Glory]

After today's game, I bet Bif starts the final. Also, I think he'll take a gamble on Ox starting if fit.

[AFC Leveller]

This 343 formation is at least unpredictable and not as easy to defend against as our previous "formation". I saw some nice interchanges between the front players and the wing backs are very hard to defend against because nobody knows who to pick up. Montreal got in behind loads of time yesterday (and against City where he scored a crucial goal) and i hope he stays there instead of playing as the third CB. Gibbs is too robotic to play as a wing back, he doesnt commit forward and is happy just passing it to the nearest Arsenal player.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The crouch handball goal was a pivotal moment in that match, too often we have just felt sorry for ourselves and shot ourselves in the foot through being indignant.

It's a head scratcher because sometimes we think it seems settled that there are many players in the squad that just aren't good enough.

Ramsey would be one of those, but judging him on the last three games that's an unsafe assumption because he has played well....his cameo yesterday was positive and through sheer force of will outmuscled Stoke defender to provide another assist for Giroud.

It's infuriating, what is Wenger doing if his players are capable of playing like that against Stoke and yet be so utterly feeble against Spurs. It helped yesterday that we were agressive and on the front foot from the off, yet we've been so often hesitant to start games that way.

You could say Stoke had nothing to play for, but to be fair they are very rarely ever battling relegation or pushing for European spot when we do play them. It's absurd, we clearly have decent players that we aren't getting enough out of when it really matters.

[Globalgunner]

Its pretty much ingrained into this club that top 4 is all that matters. I would not be surprised to find that there are secret bonus clauses written into the players and managers contracts. How else an you understand such a feeble performance against Spurs. back in the 90s we would have gone there simply with the mind to fuck them up, derail any hopes of the title, such as they would ever wish to do wth us. Can you imagine Adams, Keown and co going to WHL and hoping for a draw? But Wenger was afraid as such went with a belt and braces approach simply to contain them. Monreal and Gibbs. All to no effect. they battered us from the off and we were elated to go in at HT level. The warrior spirit is essential to win anything, even if you lack the top level quality. You must have the determination to not be overcome in a fair duel. If someone could promise them 4th place at the start of the season you would see them promptly lose every single match.

West ham wanted the satisfaction of messing up the Spuds, we are their traditional rivals and couldn't be arsed. Fans deserve better.

I hear they are trained not to get involved in physical matches. To pass their way out rather than get stuck in. It plainly doesnt work. Even a team as talented as Madrid. They scrote first, then they play. Its the only way.

[Marc Overmars]

The crouch handball goal was a pivotal moment in that match, too often we have just felt sorry for ourselves and shot ourselves in the foot through being indignant.

It's a head scratcher because sometimes we think it seems settled that there are many players in the squad that just aren't good enough.

Ramsey would be one of those, but judging him on the last three games that's an unsafe assumption because he has played well....his cameo yesterday was positive and through sheer force of will outmuscled Stoke defender to provide another assist for Giroud.

It's infuriating, what is Wenger doing if his players are capable of playing like that against Stoke and yet be so utterly feeble against Spurs. It helped yesterday that we were agressive and on the front foot from the off, yet we've been so often hesitant to start games that way.

You could say Stoke had nothing to play for, but to be fair they are very rarely ever battling relegation or pushing for European spot when we do play them. It's absurd, we clearly have decent players that we aren't getting enough out of when it really matters.

It's typical Arsenal. Always manage to do just about enough to keep our heads above water. Stink the place out for most of the year but when Top 4 is in peril we suddenly find all the ingredients that were missing when we really needed them.

Bollocks to this top 4 push, go and do it in the cup final and you'll have my respect.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But that raises the question if you can play like that for top four, why not for the title push?

It's totally bizarre. You can't simply dismiss it as being unable to handle pressure because if they are under pressure to reach top four wouldn't they equally fold under pressure.

I don't believe for a second Wenger is telling them not to try to win the league or not put the effort in unless top four is on the line, so I don't get it.

[Marc Overmars]

On a side note, can you imagine the reaction if one of our players scored that Crouch goal?

Because it's Crouch, it's been laughed off. He was using his experience apparently!

[Marc Overmars]

But that raises the question if you can play like that for top four, why not for the title push?

It's totally bizarre. You can't simply dismiss it as being unable to handle pressure because if they are under pressure to reach top four wouldn't they equally fold under pressure.

I don't believe for a second Wenger is telling them not to try to win the league or not put the effort in unless top four is on the line, so I don't get it.

Because top 4 is the bare minimum required of them. To challenge for the title is to go above and beyond and that takes a different mentality.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Because top 4 is the bare minimum required of them. To challenge for the title is to go above and beyond and that takes a different mentality.

But is it what is required of him?

I think it's fair to say that he probably wouldn't have been sacked if he had finished outside the top four

The consensus is that he would be staying with us top four or not.

And even if top four was such a priority, would it not be better to do it without by the skin of our teeth by getting positive results against palace or Spurs.

I agree with you that the manager isn't under pressure to achieve more. But there's something more here.

[AFC Leveller]

we are currently on 69 and could get 75 and still not finish in the top 4. last season we finished 2nd on 71.

Wenger will argue his team has progressed but the reality is the big clubs have stepped it up and improved, where as we clearly didnt.

[Globalgunner]

But that raises the question if you can play like that for top four, why not for the title push?

It's totally bizarre. You can't simply dismiss it as being unable to handle pressure because if they are under pressure to reach top four wouldn't they equally fold under pressure.

I don't believe for a second Wenger is telling them not to try to win the league or not put the effort in unless top four is on the line, so I don't get it.

The title requires you keep that winning mentality in every game. No slip ups. you cannot afford more than 4 losses and no more than 8 draws. We cannot keep up that intensity. Not anymore anyway. I bad result leads to 3 or 4 in a row, before you know it you are so far behind, top 4 is all that is left, usually by March. Its like clockwork.

[Niall_Quinn]

But is it what is required of him?

I think it's fair to say that he probably wouldn't have been sacked if he had finished outside the top four

The consensus is that he would be staying with us top four or not.

And even if top four was such a priority, would it not be better to do it without by the skin of our teeth by getting positive results against palace or Spurs.

I agree with you that the manager isn't under pressure to achieve more. But there's something more here.

Yes - that's PRECISELY what is required by them. After all, if winning titles was the goal, our glorious "investor" would never have got involved. Straight out of his own mouth - titles are NOT the goal at this club.

[Özim]

Looks like Wengers' luck finally ran out today, it was looking like we were going to grab 4th place at the last minute as we have in the past when other teams have collapsed, seems like Liverpool managed to hold on. Only the cup to play for, can't see past a Chelsea win, pressure is on now and that's when we collapse fast than a house of cards, doesn't matter though, Wenger will keep his job regardless because he doesn't really have any targets, it's all too easy for him, a change should happen now, but we all know it won't.

He'll get off scott free as usual and the results at the end of the season have been enough to dampen the displeasure at our performance this season, it'll give some people false hope about how good we are and what we can achieve, truth is we only started performing when there was no real pressure, noone expected us to get top 4 anymore and that's when we got results, albeit against teams who largely were either poor or disinterested, regadless it'll be enough for Wenger to tell be people to look at how well we did at the end of the season.

[Xhaka Can’t]

When I have a wank I use Hustler TV on Mobdro.

[GP]

I use a Kay's catalogue.

[selassie]

Looks like Wengers' luck finally ran out today, it was looking like we were going to grab 4th place at the last minute as we have in the past when other teams have collapsed, seems like Liverpool managed to hold on. Only the cup to play for, can't see past a Chelsea win, pressure is on now and that's when we collapse fast than a house of cards, doesn't matter though, Wenger will keep his job regardless because he doesn't really have any targets, it's all too easy for him, a change should happen now, but we all know it won't.

He'll get off scott free as usual and the results at the end of the season have been enough to dampen the displeasure at our performance this season, it'll give some people false hope about how good we are and what we can achieve, truth is we only started performing when there was no real pressure, noone expected us to get top 4 anymore and that's when we got results, albeit against teams who largely were either poor or disinterested, regadless it'll be enough for Wenger to tell be people to look at how well we did at the end of the season.

We have been very poor this season, especially since January. Along with United we have look by far the weakest of the teams challenging for the title/top 4 so it's no real surprise that we seem destined to miss out despite the late dash for it.

I can't speak for all Arsenal fans but on the whole it does seem as if the majority want Wenger gone. Wenger was lucky to get away Scott free last season which IMO was a disgrace in the manner we bottled challenging for the title. This season is different, we just aren't very good and I get the impression that the majority of the fan base have had enough, we/they just want him gone.

The only bit of pride we can take from this season is a win in the Cup Final but I highly doubt we will beat them. Chelsea trump us in every area including tactics, mentality and organisation.

I actually don't think Wenger will get away with it Scott free this season, not from a fans perspective. He has no credit left, the excuses have run out, he has been given everything he claimed he needed to succeed and he has failed. What more can he want? Losing the title in that manner to Leicester told us all we need to know about modern day Wenger, he's a loser.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yes - that's PRECISELY what is required by them. After all, if winning titles was the goal, our glorious "investor" would never have got involved. Straight out of his own mouth - titles are NOT the goal at this club.

My point is, is he even required to get 4th?

From Wengers own mouth, the suggestion appears to be not

[Power n Glory]

We have been very poor this season, especially since January. Along with United we have look by far the weakest of the teams challenging for the title/top 4 so it's no real surprise that we seem destined to miss out despite the late dash for it.

I can't speak for all Arsenal fans but on the whole it does seem as if the majority want Wenger gone. Wenger was lucky to get away Scott free last season which IMO was a disgrace in the manner we bottled challenging for the title. This season is different, we just aren't very good and I get the impression that the majority of the fan base have had enough, we/they just want him gone.

The only bit of pride we can take from this season is a win in the Cup Final but I highly doubt we will beat them. Chelsea trump us in every area including tactics, mentality and organisation.

I actually don't think Wenger will get away with it Scott free this season, not from a fans perspective. He has no credit left, the excuses have run out, he has been given everything he claimed he needed to succeed and he has failed. What more can he want? Losing the title in that manner to Leicester told us all we need to know about modern day Wenger, he's a loser.


I’m not even sure he’s sitting comfy cosy with the Board. I get why people would assume it’s business as usual but we’re seeing some strange stuff going on around the club.

- We haven’t had an official statement from our Chief Executive to confirm Wenger’s job is safe. Last statement he made on Wenger was about us not being Arsene FC and as results have grown worse he made the ‘catalyst for change’ statement.
- Sir Chips also added his piece about a ‘mutual decision’ being made which undermines this idea that Wenger only has to sign a deal and the ball is in his court.
- Sir Chips got up and left the Crystal Palace game early after conceding a second goal. We took a 3-0 beating.
- Wenger deciding to switch to 3 at the back following the thumping to Palace. Was he spoken to by the Board or players? He usually goes with a more conservative team selection to sure up the defence and not a radical formation change.
- The clubs leaking stories of needing a Director of Football and we then we see Wenger’s hostile reaction to such an idea. He could have handled that with more grace.
- Stories are circulating of Josh Kroenke wanting Henry in our coaching setup. First time we hear about a Kroenke having an opinion on Arsenal from a technical standpoint, I think. How does he feel about Henry being blocked by Wenger to join the coaching staff? Is he part of the reported band that’s unhappy with Wenger?

This is strange territory for us. Have we even had an official statement from anyone higher up saying they want Wenger to stay?

He really should have went last season and maybe seeing Leicester win the title whilst we fell away was an eye opener for some.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think that we are now almost certain to finish outside the top four means at least there should be some leverage on Wenger, i don't believe for a second that missing out on champions league football and the likelihood of losing it's best player will not have a detrimental effect on the club's share values and that's what Enos Stanley cares about.

It's not a situation he will want to carry on in perpetuity. although Kroenke is apparently in tight with Wenger there is no doubt he would sack him if he was costing him money.

[Letters]

Looks like Wengers' luck finally ran out today

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyt4KFyVQQ8

[selassie]

I’m not even sure he’s sitting comfy cosy with the Board. I get why people would assume it’s business as usual but we’re seeing some strange stuff going on around the club.

- We haven’t had an official statement from our Chief Executive to confirm Wenger’s job is safe. Last statement he made on Wenger was about us not being Arsene FC and as results have grown worse he made the ‘catalyst for change’ statement.
- Sir Chips also added his piece about a ‘mutual decision’ being made which undermines this idea that Wenger only has to sign a deal and the ball is in his court.
- Sir Chips got up and left the Crystal Palace game early after conceding a second goal. We took a 3-0 beating.
- Wenger deciding to switch to 3 at the back following the thumping to Palace. Was he spoken to by the Board or players? He usually goes with a more conservative team selection to sure up the defence and not a radical formation change.
- The clubs leaking stories of needing a Director of Football and we then we see Wenger’s hostile reaction to such an idea. He could have handled that with more grace.
- Stories are circulating of Josh Kroenke wanting Henry in our coaching setup. First time we hear about a Kroenke having an opinion on Arsenal from a technical standpoint, I think. How does he feel about Henry being blocked by Wenger to join the coaching staff? Is he part of the reported band that’s unhappy with Wenger?

This is strange territory for us. Have we even had an official statement from anyone higher up saying they want Wenger to stay?

He really should have went last season and maybe seeing Leicester win the title whilst we fell away was an eye opener for some.

Some great points in there DOG. I think it's safe to say this summer is going to be very interesting in terms of how we move forward as a Football club and Wenger is right in the middle of all of this. In an ideal world Wenger will step down but I have a feeling there are going to be more twists and turns in this saga due to the power struggle being played out between Gazidis and Wenger.

[selassie]

This post possibly needs to be moved to the other Wenger thread but I thought I'd post it here anyway...quotes have been taken from this article on Arsenal.com, Wenger's press conferences quotes.....

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20170515/read-more-wenger-press-conference-es


on what finishing on 75 points and winning FA Cup would mean to him…

It would mean that the season has not gone as well as I hoped at the start of the season. Not as well as I hoped at the start of the season because I started the season to win the Premier League and when you don’t do it, you’re never completely satisfied, like everybody else. But as well, it’s not disastrous. I think what’s encouraging is the way the team develops recently and the way the ambition of the team is back. Overall I think it’s difficult to get points in this league, it’s difficult for everybody.

It is disastrous, the team has gone backwards. Does he not care about winning? Why the laissez faire attitude? It is incredible TBH.


on whether he thinks a possible 75-point total would show progress…

I don’t want to go into conclusions too early. It shows that if you can make 75 points it’s a decent total because I won the championship with 78. But this season it looks at the end of the season that many teams who have been assured to stay in the league have just released their focus and as well, you had basically two leagues, the top six and the rest of the Premier League. Everybody took too many points from lower teams. That usually did not happen in the years before.

Sigh......

[Marc Overmars]

I think 75 points would be the highest tally to miss out on top 4.

That's been our points average for over a decade now. We've stood still for years and now finally others have caught up and levelled the playing field. We completely missed our window of opportunity to at least deliver one title while the other clubs were going through transition. Stability is overrated, especially when what is considered stable seldom delivers anything of note.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think 75 points would be the highest tally to miss out on top 4.

That's been our points average for over a decade now. We've stood still for years and now finally others have caught up and levelled the playing field. We completely missed our window of opportunity to at least deliver one title while the other clubs were going through transition. Stability is overrated, especially when what is considered stable seldom delivers anything of note.

Near enough it's actually 73 points - our average point accumulation since moving to the Emirates

Not that I want to be a pedant or anything

I don't think he can spin this successfully, eight defeats in 18 games is mid table form at best

He's lost his leverage in post season discussions. If he wants to stay he will probably have to accept big change.

[Globalgunner]

Doubt we will get the 75 points. Everton at home wont be easy. Even though there is nothing to play for Koeman is one of those managers that seems to have Wenger`s number. I forsee a draw.

[Özim]

This post possibly needs to be moved to the other Wenger thread but I thought I'd post it here anyway...quotes have been taken from this article on Arsenal.com, Wenger's press conferences quotes.....

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20170515/read-more-wenger-press-conference-es



It is disastrous, the team has gone backwards. Does he not care about winning? Why the laissez faire attitude? It is incredible TBH.



Sigh......
He is totally deluded, he thinks a few meaningless wins at the end of the season affter a string of disastrous results and a season filled with awful performances shows the team is developing.

I just don't think there is a more delusional, more oblivious person to what's happening in front of his eyes in the world of fooball today, you really have to ask what is wrong with him.

Personally I think he accepts being 2nd best, his words and actions prove that, he's not a winner in any real sense these days.

This made me laugh as well:


on why we tend to finish the season strongly…
Because we do our job properly and we are focused until the end. As long as we are in competition, we prepare the teams well and that’s why we were always finishing strong, because we kept our focus.

Hmmm really, interesting he thinks doing our job properly is winning a few meaningless games at the tail end of the season, what about the games we get hammered in when it actually matters?

[Özim]

Near enough it's actually 73 points - our average point accumulation since moving to the Emirates

Not that I want to be a pedant or anything

I don't think he can spin this successfully, eight defeats in 18 games is mid table form at best

He's lost his leverage in post season discussions. If he wants to stay he will probably have to accept big change.

If you use AFTV as a guide of what fans think, then they seem encouraged by the tactical change and the results and seemingly seem reasonably happy. I know people say he won't get off scott free, but from the only feedback we really get from fans at matches, the negative feeling towards him has calmed significantly after a handful of wins, I think people seem to have accepted the inevitable and are looking for encouraging signs of which in reality there are none.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If you use AFTV as a guide of what fans think, then they seem encouraged by the tactical change and the results and seemingly seem reasonably happy. I know people say he won't get off scott free, but from the only feedback we really get from fans at matches, the negative feeling towards him has calmed significantly after a handful of wins, I think people seem to have accepted the inevitable and are looking for encouraging signs of which in reality there are none.

Give it a rest. Should fans be miserable even when we play well and win?

Of course things have calmed. But it's possible to be happy when we are playing well and still want Wenger gone (unless it's you of course).

[Power n Glory]

If you use AFTV as a guide of what fans think, then they seem encouraged by the tactical change and the results and seemingly seem reasonably happy. I know people say he won't get off scott free, but from the only feedback we really get from fans at matches, the negative feeling towards him has calmed significantly after a handful of wins, I think people seem to have accepted the inevitable and are looking for encouraging signs of which in reality there are none.

Happy with the game and results to wanting Wenger to sign a new deal should be kept separate.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Happy with the game and results to wanting Wenger to sign a new deal should be kept separate.

I agree

[Özim]

Give it a rest. Should fans be miserable even when we play well and win?

Of course things have calmed. But it's possible to be happy when we are playing well and still want Wenger gone (unless it's you of course).

Give what a rest? I've seen it before and I'm not convinced there'll be anything different this time, it only takes a few wins to convince people things will be different...

Beng happy is one thing, but from previous experience I reckon it's more than that and fans going to matches are content with his performance now as opposed to before when they were highly disatisfied with his performance.

[Özim]

Happy with the game and results to wanting Wenger to sign a new deal should be kept separate.

It's not even wanting really Wenger to sign a new deal (they've got no say in that anyway), it's a case of being indifferent when he does and then sugar coating it by looking at the results at the end of the season.

Whether he signs a new deal or not, feeling towards him shouldn't change, but I reckon it will, but that's just my opinion, I reckon the he's feeling less under pressure now after a few wins, he's been noticeably more cocksure in the last few weeks and you can see from what he's saying that he's not overly concerned with what's happened this season.

[Power n Glory]

It's not even wanting rally Wenger to sign a new deal (they've got no say in that anyway), it's a case of being indifferent when he does and then sugar coating it by looking at the results at the end of the season.

Whether he signs a new deal or not, feeling towards him shouldn't change, but I reckon it will, but that's just my opinion, I reckon the he's feeling less under pressure now after a few wins, he's been noticeably more cocksure in the last few weeks and you can see from what he's saying that he's not overly concerned with what's happened this season.

I give credit where it’s due and I think when you’re vocal about your criticism, especially those on AFTV, I think it’s important that you can show that you can be positive and objective. It’s Arsenal Fan TV at the end of the day. We’re not Arsene FC and shouldn’t have to discuss him all the time. I think AFTV need to show that it’s not always fire and brimstone rants when we lose and can enjoy a victory.

[Globalgunner]

Has anyone seen Wengers latest press conf. delusional does not even come close to describing it
https://youtu.be/Llfmhyrls7g

“if you look at the Bayern game across the 2 games, in the first half, we were already qualified”?

[Niall_Quinn]

Give it a rest. Should fans be miserable even when we play well and win?

Of course things have calmed. But it's possible to be happy when we are playing well and still want Wenger gone (unless it's you of course).

This is like finding your favourite tune on the radio as the car is heading over the cliff. The fact is, if fans give it a rest then that will be immediately seized upon and exploited. Now is the time for fans to be more vocal than ever. By all means, have a cheer that the team is (eventually) winning a few (against very poor opposition it should be added), but the pressure on Wenger must be maintained if we want to translate these few wins into something useful down the line.

Also remember that the last significant test we faced in footballing terms (rather than psychological terms) was against the spuds. And we were played off the pitch. We absolutely needed a point in that game, at the very least. We failed.

What we are really seeing in these last few games is not progress - far, far, far from it. We are witnessing what is being spun into another glorious failure. 2% away. Almost did it. Nearly. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

And look at Wenger's team selections. He's learned fuck all.

Here's what the problem is. The standards of the fans have dropped and now approach Wenger's miserable standards. So we mistranslate what we SHOULD be doing anyway, but have failed to do all season, into some measure of success by comparison to a rancid benchmark.

Wenger deserves no credit whatsoever for this rather embarrassing run-in. All we can say, if we are being truthful, is he's a slightly less outrageous fuck-up than he had the potential to be over the course of this miserable season.

And we still aren't playing well by the way. Not by the standards we have set in the past. We are cheering because we have managed to get back to the very basics during limited phases of the last few matches. We can pass again. We can shoot again. We're even getting the odd cross into the box. Hallelujah. Our so-called rivals, that this abusive and money grabbing board suggested we'd be challenging by now, do all that without effort.

Keep the pressure on because failure to do so will mean failure guaranteed on the pitch. That's probably the outcome regardless, but it's worth fighting against it right up until Wenger's pen hits that contract - if for nothing else than to show that, no, we do not accept these shitty standards.

[Özim]

This is like finding your favourite tune on the radio as the car is heading over the cliff. The fact is, if fans give it a rest then that will be immediately seized upon and exploited. Now is the time for fans to be more vocal than ever. By all means, have a cheer that the team is (eventually) winning a few (against very poor opposition it should be added), but the pressure on Wenger must be maintained if we want to translate these few wins into something useful down the line.

Also remember that the last significant test we faced in footballing terms (rather than psychological terms) was against the spuds. And we were played off the pitch. We absolutely needed a point in that game, at the very least. We failed.

What we are really seeing in these last few games is not progress - far, far, far from it. We are witnessing what is being spun into another glorious failure. 2% away. Almost did it. Nearly. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

And look at Wenger's team selections. He's learned fuck all.

Here's what the problem is. The standards of the fans have dropped and now approach Wenger's miserable standards. So we mistranslate what we SHOULD be doing anyway, but have failed to do all season, into some measure of success by comparison to a rancid benchmark.

Wenger deserves no credit whatsoever for this rather embarrassing run-in. All we can say, if we are being truthful, is he's a slightly less outrageous fuck-up than he had the potential to be over the course of this miserable season.

And we still aren't playing well by the way. Not by the standards we have set in the past. We are cheering because we have managed to get back to the very basics during limited phases of the last few matches. We can pass again. We can shoot again. We're even getting the odd cross into the box. Hallelujah. Our so-called rivals, that this abusive and money grabbing board suggested we'd be challenging by now, do all that without effort.

Keep the pressure on because failure to do so will mean failure guaranteed on the pitch. That's probably the outcome regardless, but it's worth fighting against it right up until Wenger's pen hits that contract - if for nothing else than to show that, no, we do not accept these shitty standards.

:gp: He's clearly feeling less pressure now and with each win the fan pressure has been easing off, now sure I get we got a few results (albeit against not so great opposition as you mentioned), but come on these are results that actually came at a time when there is no pressure on the players, pretty meaningless in my book, as you mentioned the Spurs game was make and break and we were outclassed.....since then it's been a pointless excercise of hoping other teams collapse to let us back in...woeful!

[Özim]

I give credit where it’s due and I think when you’re vocal about your criticism, especially those on AFTV, I think it’s important that you can show that you can be positive and objective. It’s Arsenal Fan TV at the end of the day. We’re not Arsene FC and shouldn’t have to discuss him all the time. I think AFTV need to show that it’s not always fire and brimstone rants when we lose and can enjoy a victory.

Let's be fair though, what credit do the team deserve after such a poor season where they have pretty much failed every test they had and really only started getting a few results when the pressure was off and noone thought they had a hope of top 4 anyway?

I can't take these results seriously, because none of them were meaningful game, we were just trying to claw back a few points from the impossible position we put ourselves in and Liverpool finally put the idea that we might get top 4 to bed yesterday. Enjoy the games that's fine, but don't forget that ultimately we've failed so the pressure should not ease off the manager and the club....something that has certainly happened after 3 mere wins.

[Power n Glory]

Here's what the problem is. The standards of the fans have dropped and now approach Wenger's miserable standards
I see it differently. I have more of problem when you and Zim say Wenger is going to get a new deal anyway. If that’s the general feeling with fans, why keep up the protest? Why keep the pressure on if it’s out of our hands?

[Özim]

I see it differently. I have more of problem when you and Zim say Wenger is going to get a new deal anyway. If that’s the general feeling with fans, why keep up the protest? Why keep the pressure on if it’s out of our hands?

Because ultimately if you're unhappy about things you have to kick up a fuss and hope it works, keeping quiet guarantees no change, but at least is the fans revolts and skip matches etc there's a chance someone might take note (however small). If you put a manager under pressure he's more likely to jack it in at the end of the day, however if you let him have an easy ride and he wants to stay then he will.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

This is like finding your favourite tune on the radio as the car is heading over the cliff. The fact is, if fans give it a rest then that will be immediately seized upon and exploited. Now is the time for fans to be more vocal than ever. By all means, have a cheer that the team is (eventually) winning a few (against very poor opposition it should be added), but the pressure on Wenger must be maintained if we want to translate these few wins into something useful down the line.

Also remember that the last significant test we faced in footballing terms (rather than psychological terms) was against the spuds. And we were played off the pitch. We absolutely needed a point in that game, at the very least. We failed.

What we are really seeing in these last few games is not progress - far, far, far from it. We are witnessing what is being spun into another glorious failure. 2% away. Almost did it. Nearly. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

And look at Wenger's team selections. He's learned fuck all.

Here's what the problem is. The standards of the fans have dropped and now approach Wenger's miserable standards. So we mistranslate what we SHOULD be doing anyway, but have failed to do all season, into some measure of success by comparison to a rancid benchmark.

Wenger deserves no credit whatsoever for this rather embarrassing run-in. All we can say, if we are being truthful, is he's a slightly less outrageous fuck-up than he had the potential to be over the course of this miserable season.

And we still aren't playing well by the way. Not by the standards we have set in the past. We are cheering because we have managed to get back to the very basics during limited phases of the last few matches. We can pass again. We can shoot again. We're even getting the odd cross into the box. Hallelujah. Our so-called rivals, that this abusive and money grabbing board suggested we'd be challenging by now, do all that without effort.

Keep the pressure on because failure to do so will mean failure guaranteed on the pitch. That's probably the outcome regardless, but it's worth fighting against it right up until Wenger's pen hits that contract - if for nothing else than to show that, no, we do not accept these shitty standards.

Being happy that we've won and seeing objectively that a system works is not the same as giving the manager credit

I saw the comments on here during and after the game, no-one called Wenger a tactical genius but we were all happy with the result because it's good to beat those horrible thuggish sub humans.

I don't always agree with P n G but he's absolutely right here, this and Wenger are two things that are totally divorced from each other. Refusing to be happy with a good result isn't less likely to make him stay, it's just perhaps that people want to extricate themselves from this awful, boring contract saga and enjoy a game of football....christ we've been unable to do that few enough times this season.

[Power n Glory]

Let's be fair though, what credit do the team deserve after such a poor season where they have pretty much failed every test they had and really only started getting a few results when the pressure was off and noone thought they had a hope of top 4 anyway?

I can't take these results seriously, because none of them were meaningful game, we were just trying to claw back a few points from the impossible position we put ourselves in and Liverpool finally put the idea that we might get top 4 to bed yesterday. Enjoy the games that's fine, but don't forget that ultimately we've failed so the pressure should not ease off the manager and the club....something that has certainly happened after 3 mere wins.

There are still talking points. I thought Coquelin played well and showed that he can more than just defend. Holding had another solid game, both wing backs did well. We don’t need to go overboard and make bold declarations but we’re talking about immediate reactions and assessment of a performance.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Because ultimately if you're unhappy about things you have to kick up a fuss and hope it works, keeping quiet guarantees no change, but at least is the fans revolts and skip matches etc there's a chance someone might take note (however small). If you put a manager under pressure he's more likely to jack it in at the end of the day, however if you let him have an easy ride and he wants to stay then he will.

Did the protest on Tuesday suddenly get cancelled as a result of the last three wins?

Is the Arsenal Supporters Trust no longer calling for the Manager to not be offered a new contract?

There are fans of clubs that are far more belligerent and harder to please than ours, and they will still celebrate when their team wins....otherwise what's the point?

[Niall_Quinn]

I see it differently. I have more of problem when you and Zim say Wenger is going to get a new deal anyway. If that’s the general feeling with fans, why keep up the protest? Why keep the pressure on if it’s out of our hands?

Let's look at it in a practical sense.

A couple of weeks back Le Grove was suggesting the Sunderland game would be a good target for fan protest, and gave a bunch of reasons why. A good plan, well reasoned, I thought.

Tomorrow the Sunderland game arrives. What should the fans do? Well, they should still boycott it, for all the reasons that existed before we grabbed a few wins and for all the same reasons that still exist and have not gone away.

But after these few wins what will happen? What are we going to see? That's not to suggest a boycott was a certainty anyway. We've already seen how lame so many of the fans are. No matter how badly you abuse them the wimps roll over and spread their arse cheeks.

It would be great if tomorrow's game turned into a sea of protest. And it would be right too. It'll be all smiles though, I bet, as we put mighty Sunderland to the sword.

And if we somehow manage to get a result against the chavs, you wait and see. All will be forgiven and forgotten and the giant reset button will be pressed and off we go again.

Best part of the Stoke game was the plane and the banner. Think planes and banners are stupid in general, but it seemed to be the only reminder that this guy has to go if this club stands any chance of doing more than wallpapering foundational cracks.

[Özim]

There are still talking points. I thought Coquelin played well and showed that he can more than just defend. Holding had another solid game, both wing backs did well. We don’t need to go overboard and make bold declarations but we’re talking about immediate reactions and assessment of a performance.

Coquelin has been poor all season though, one game doesn't change that, personally think he's not good enough. Holding has done well and has potential, as for the wing backs, yes they did well problem is there's no real pressure on these games, so it's hard to gauge, the real test is next season.

How many times have we seen this though, wins and decent performances at the end of a season when there's little to play for and then starting a new season and still be ing a shambles, just not convinced these improvement will translate into improvements next season.

It's hard to assess these performances in a similar way it would be in a friendly because these aren't representative of games that happen earlier on in a season when you have pressure and things to play for, you might argue we had the 4th spot to play for, but our chance always relied on other teams droping points, so to some degree the pressure was off.

[Özim]

Did the protest on Tuesday suddenly get cancelled as a result of the last three wins?

Is the Arsenal Supporters Trust no longer calling for the Manager to not be offered a new contract?

There are fans of clubs that are far more belligerent and harder to please than ours, and they will still celebrate when their team wins....otherwise what's the point?

I definitely think everything is much more subdued, which I understand, the problem is you can see the manager clearly feels under less pressure now, his attitude in pres conferences is testament to that, he's now defending our points total and citing progress in the same sentence and in the last few matches has been talking about togetherness and mental strength which is ridiculous.

You can celebrate when you win, but that doesn't stop you from still maintaining the same line as you do when we lose, which is his time is up and change of tactics and a few wins changes nothing, seems to me that although people might well think that, it's no longer coming across to the club.

[Power n Glory]

Because ultimately if you're unhappy about things you have to kick up a fuss and hope it works, keeping quiet guarantees no change, but at least is the fans revolts and skip matches etc there's a chance someone might take note (however small). If you put a manager under pressure he's more likely to jack it in at the end of the day, however if you let him have an easy ride and he wants to stay then he will.


It’s a catch 22. I’m happy to see when the team play well but I want Wenger gone. If we win on Tuesday should I be booing from the stands even if I feel more loses could result in him getting the boot? I’m actually hoping we finish outside of the Top 4 but I won’t be pissed off if we win our games.

But again, if you feel it’s out of our hands, why be vocal? Why should the fans be booing at the games if you feel Wenger is on for a new contract?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I definitely think everything is much more subdued, which I understand, the problem is you can see the manager clearly feels under less pressure now, his attitude in pres conferences is testament to that, he's now defending our points total and citing progress in the same sentence and in the last few matches has been talking about togetherness and mental strength which is ridiculous.

You can celebrate when you win, but that doesn't stop you from still maintaining the same line as you do when we lose, which is his time is up and change of tactics and a few wins changes nothing, seems to me that although people might well think that, it's no longer coming across to the club.

I definitely think you're full of shit

You are basing this opinion because fans aren't like you, and P n G mentions the Le Grove blogger you remind me of the term he coins "grief porn". I don't think bad results annoy you, they seem to be your sustenance. For fans who go week in, week out however maybe just maybe they don't get high on the same misery as you do and just want to see a good game of football and be able to suspend for a few hours the bigger context.

Football is a form of escapism after all, this idea that you need to reaffirm with every sentence that you want Wenger to go or somehow you are perpetuating the cycle is the kind of nonsense that only an armchair fan could come out with.

I think the boycott of the Sunderland game is a good idea, and you have nothing but pure supposition to suggest that people won't go along with it just because of what happened on Saturday

[Niall_Quinn]

Did the protest on Tuesday suddenly get cancelled as a result of the last three wins?

Is the Arsenal Supporters Trust no longer calling for the Manager to not be offered a new contract?

There are fans of clubs that are far more belligerent and harder to please than ours, and they will still celebrate when their team wins....otherwise what's the point?

Effectively, I bet yes.

[Niall_Quinn]

It’s a catch 22. I’m happy to see when the team play well but I want Wenger gone. If we win on Tuesday should I be booing from the stands even if I feel more loses could result in him getting the boot? I’m actually hoping we finish outside of the Top 4 but I won’t be pissed off if we win our games.

But again, if you feel it’s out of our hands, why be vocal? Why should the fans be booing at the games if you feel Wenger is on for a new contract?

That's about it.

Which is why a boycott is a good idea. I don't think the players would take that personally and they'd know what the score is. And nobody should be booing the team, unless they are serving up shite. So 90 minutes of "We want Wenger out..." would be the order of the day, for those who won't stay away.

Doubt we'll see any of it though. After this season, I think the fans are so desperate for any crumb of comfort, that crumb becomes a feast.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Effectively, I bet yes.

No it's still going ahead. People will either choose to boycott or they won't

How many will boycott and whether they would have boycotted if we hadn't won the last three games is like i say just a matter of supposition.

[Marc Overmars]

The game is on general sale tomorrow so I don't think there will be much of a protest anyway, I can't imagine those who don't often get a chance to go will waste their experience by protesting.

Any kind of protest will as usual be reduced to a few hundred people with little signs, a portion that are ambivalent and another who are so easily offended they will chant 'one Arsene Wenger'.

[Power n Glory]

Let's look at it in a practical sense.

A couple of weeks back Le Grove was suggesting the Sunderland game would be a good target for fan protest, and gave a bunch of reasons why. A good plan, well reasoned, I thought.

Tomorrow the Sunderland game arrives. What should the fans do? Well, they should still boycott it, for all the reasons that existed before we grabbed a few wins and for all the same reasons that still exist and have not gone away.

But after these few wins what will happen? What are we going to see? That's not to suggest a boycott was a certainty anyway. We've already seen how lame so many of the fans are. No matter how badly you abuse them the wimps roll over and spread their arse cheeks.

It would be great if tomorrow's game turned into a sea of protest. And it would be right too. It'll be all smiles though, I bet, as we put mighty Sunderland to the sword.

And if we somehow manage to get a result against the chavs, you wait and see. All will be forgiven and forgotten and the giant reset button will be pressed and off we go again.

Best part of the Stoke game was the plane and the banner. Think planes and banners are stupid in general, but it seemed to be the only reminder that this guy has to go if this club stands any chance of doing more than wallpapering foundational cracks.

Is the protest tomorrow? Ok, that makes sense. I won't go.

[Niall_Quinn]

I definitely think you're full of shit

You are basing this opinion because fans aren't like you, and P n G mentions the Le Grove blogger you remind me of the term he coins "grief porn". I don't think bad results annoy you, they seem to be your sustenance. For fans who go week in, week out however maybe just maybe they don't get high on the same misery as you do and just want to see a good game of football and be able to suspend for a few hours the bigger context.

Football is a form of escapism after all, this idea that you need to reaffirm with every sentence that you want Wenger to go or somehow you are perpetuating the cycle is the kind of nonsense that only an armchair fan could come out with.

I think the boycott of the Sunderland game is a good idea, and you have nothing but pure supposition to suggest that people won't go along with it just because of what happened on Saturday

An armchair fan like Mr DT, for example? Love him or loathe him, he was there with his banner when the spittle was raining down. And he was there with his predictions too. We were going to win the league at one point, if you recall? It's hard to fathom the fans that seriously thought that. There's escapism, which is fair enough, but outright fantasy is too much.

Under it all, I think we all know what this club and this team is capable of if pushed to the limits that should be a natural benchmark in competitive sport. That's where the fury comes from. Knowing that the people in which huge trust and treasure island resources have been poured into can't push themselves to the same degree as a fan who saves his pennies and jumps in the car for his 20th road trip. It's supposed to be a partnership but it's one-sided as things stand and when you add the obnoxious arrogance of a character like Wenger on top then sure, spitting back at him is highly understandable.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The game is on general sale tomorrow so I don't think there will be much of a protest anyway, I can't imagine those who don't often get a chance to go will waste their experience by protesting.

Any kind of protest will as usual be reduced to a few hundred people with little signs, a portion that are ambivalent and another who are so easily offended they will chant 'one Arsene Wenger'.

The protest will be in the non attendance

http://www.onlinegooner.com/article.php?section=exclusive&id=3664#.WRnI13rc1Fs

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

An armchair fan like Mr DT, for example? Love him or loathe him, he was there with his banner when the spittle was raining down. And he was there with his predictions too. We were going to win the league at one point, if you recall? It's hard to fathom the fans that seriously thought that. There's escapism, which is fair enough, but outright fantasy is too much.

Under it all, I think we all know what this club and this team is capable of if pushed to the limits that should be a natural benchmark in competitive sport. That's where the fury comes from. Knowing that the people in which huge trust and treasure island resources have been poured into can't push themselves to the same degree as a fan who saves his pennies and jumps in the car for his 20th road trip. It's supposed to be a partnership but it's one-sided as things stand and when you add the obnoxious arrogance of a character like Wenger on top then sure, spitting back at him is highly understandable.

DT is still able to enjoy games where we win even though he is probably the poster boy of the Wenger Out faction.

He is not telling anyone they shouldn't celebrate when we win.

[Marc Overmars]

The protest will be in the non attendance

http://www.onlinegooner.com/article.php?section=exclusive&id=3664#.WRnI13rc1Fs

Well, hopefully it happens to the extent that it gets noticed. I would love to see a half empty stadium.

However it's not going to hurt the club where it really matters - financially.

[Niall_Quinn]

No it's still going ahead. People will either choose to boycott or they won't

How many will boycott and whether they would have boycotted if we hadn't won the last three games is like i say just a matter of supposition.

How can it be anything other than supposition? That's the whole thrust of the debate. Have these meaningless wins amounting to our biggest failure to date under Wenger had an impact on the fans and their attitude to Wenger? I'd say, if you asked them if they want Wenger to stay or go, most will still say go. But if it's just a self held opinion that's never acted on then there's no real point having that opinion in the first place. Action is what it takes, ranging from ongoing criticism on social platforms all the way through to direct protest in the stadium.

By the way, a huge chunk of revenue comes from those "armchair" fans these days, far more than comes from the bums on stadium seats. So their protest is just as valid and potentially far more effective. And some of those fans don't want to be in an armchair, but the club priced them out of the stadium.

This is a crunch run-in. Not because of the results and most certainly not because of some cup. If we emerge from this season with more fans tolerant of 2 years more for Wenger than hell bent against it then that's how it's going to be. The anti-Wenger lot will just have to accept it and, I assume, find some other sport to engage them. Because if Wenger somehow finds a way to stay at this club after such an unbroken run of failure the there's no place for fans who want more from the sport than a switch on, consume, switch off experience. Arsenal will be dead as a football club.

[Niall_Quinn]

DT is still able to enjoy games where we win even though he is probably the poster boy of the Wenger Out faction.

He is not telling anyone they shouldn't celebrate when we win.

Who's suggesting that?

Even here on GW in that match thread, everyone was chuffed with a nice bit of orc slaughter. Except PnG :lol: but that was down to retarded Wenger and the team selection and I understand that 100%

Question is, how many fans have been hoodwinked by this latest (and most basic) run of form? And how many were borderline, don't care, and are now fully back in the don't care camp?

Not sure that I care too much myself tbf. But I will get sick in my mouth if that cunt Wenger tries to play this up in any way.

[Power n Glory]

Coquelin has been poor all season though, one game doesn't change that, personally think he's not good enough. Holding has done well and has potential, as for the wing backs, yes they did well problem is there's no real pressure on these games, so it's hard to gauge, the real test is next season.

How many times have we seen this though, wins and decent performances at the end of a season when there's little to play for and then starting a new season and still be ing a shambles, just not convinced these improvement will translate into improvements next season.

It's hard to assess these performances in a similar way it would be in a friendly because these aren't representative of games that happen earlier on in a season when you have pressure and things to play for, you might argue we had the 4th spot to play for, but our chance always relied on other teams droping points, so to some degree the pressure was off.


One game doesn’t change that he has had a poor season but for the first time in ages, I’ve seen him show some attacking quality. Touches that had him evading defenders to open up more space for himself, neatly weighted passes, attempting to play the ball forward and long….it doesn’t change the overall narrative for whatever reason, he was able to play better and show sides we haven’t seen before.

It’s the same sort of debate I’ve been having here with Ozil. We’ve got examples of players showing they are capable but for whatever reason, they’ve had a poor season. Just adds to the debate of whether these are poor players, not trying or down to mismanagement.

[Niall_Quinn]

The game is on general sale tomorrow so I don't think there will be much of a protest anyway, I can't imagine those who don't often get a chance to go will waste their experience by protesting.

Any kind of protest will as usual be reduced to a few hundred people with little signs, a portion that are ambivalent and another who are so easily offended they will chant 'one Arsene Wenger'.

Agreed. That's why I say the standards of the fans has been dragged down to Wenger's lowly standards. We are almost united in settling for less.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Who's suggesting that?

Even here on GW in that match thread, everyone was chuffed with a nice bit of orc slaughter. Except PnG :lol: but that was down to retarded Wenger and the team selection and I understand that 100%

Question is, how many fans have been hoodwinked by this latest (and most basic) run of form? And how many were borderline, don't care, and are now fully back in the don't care camp?

Not sure that I care too much myself tbf. But I will get sick in my mouth if that cunt Wenger tries to play this up in any way.

You are the ones asserting for a fact that fans have figuratively taken their trousers down and bent over based on nothing other than the fans were happy with the result.

This is the kind of nonsense Zim comes up with all the time

[Özim]

I definitely think you're full of shit

You are basing this opinion because fans aren't like you, and P n G mentions the Le Grove blogger you remind me of the term he coins "grief porn". I don't think bad results annoy you, they seem to be your sustenance. For fans who go week in, week out however maybe just maybe they don't get high on the same misery as you do and just want to see a good game of football and be able to suspend for a few hours the bigger context.

Football is a form of escapism after all, this idea that you need to reaffirm with every sentence that you want Wenger to go or somehow you are perpetuating the cycle is the kind of nonsense that only an armchair fan could come out with.

I think the boycott of the Sunderland game is a good idea, and you have nothing but pure supposition to suggest that people won't go along with it just because of what happened on Saturday

Well yes because you live in this little world where you want change but where people shouldn't actively try to make it happen because it's not the done thing and you find reasons as to why people shouldn't do it.

If you want to see change you make it clear regardless of what happens, otherwise don't expect it to change and don't complain when it all goes pearshaped again like it does every year and has been for as long as I can rememeber.

What we're seeing at the moment is music to the ears of the board and manager, a few wins, fans over the moon, protest dying off and people turning up every week.

Makes me laugh you want to see change but actively argue that people should behave as if they don't want change.

[Özim]

You are the ones asserting for a fact that fans have figuratively taken their trousers down and bent over based on nothing other than the fans were happy with the result.

This is the kind of nonsense Zim comes up with all the time

Yes just like they were happy last season, the season before that, the season before that and so on. You can clearly see sentiment is changing after a few wins, people seem a lot happier, not so many Wenger out comments etc etc, you may be oblivious to it but you only need to look at the manager and how much more relaxed and confident he is about his position and his team.

All of this does one thing, cements Wengers position even further, you can be happy with the result but still maintain the same atttidue and points you made when you weren't, trouble is that's not what happens at all, what happens is the stance softens towards Wenger and people who want him out become indifferent about making it clear as they're happy with what is happening at that point in time.

[Özim]

Agreed. That's why I say the standards of the fans has been dragged down to Wenger's lowly standards. We are almost united in settling for less.

Spot on, losers mentality running right through the club tbh, all Wengers doing a few nothing wins at the end of the season and the odd tin pot cup has kept the fans happy for well over a decade.

[Özim]

He is not telling anyone they shouldn't celebrate when we win.

Who is telling anyone not to celebrate?

[Özim]

How can it be anything other than supposition? That's the whole thrust of the debate. Have these meaningless wins amounting to our biggest failure to date under Wenger had an impact on the fans and their attitude to Wenger? I'd say, if you asked them if they want Wenger to stay or go, most will still say go. But if it's just a self held opinion that's never acted on then there's no real point having that opinion in the first place. Action is what it takes, ranging from ongoing criticism on social platforms all the way through to direct protest in the stadium.

Totally agree, if you want Wenger our but bcome less vocal about it after a few wins, there's no real conviction in your opinion, it's like someone who wants to win the lottery, tells everyone but never buys a ticket.

[Niall_Quinn]

You are the ones asserting for a fact that fans have figuratively taken their trousers down and bent over based on nothing other than the fans were happy with the result.

This is the kind of nonsense Zim comes up with all the time

We'll see tomorrow. People who care about these things have tried to organise a sensible protest and they have given fans plenty of notice. So if we can see the effects of that tomorrow, good news. If we get a stadium full of drones then fuck it, the club is done.

[Power n Glory]

You are the ones asserting for a fact that fans have figuratively taken their trousers down and bent over based on nothing other than the fans were happy with the result.

This is the kind of nonsense Zim comes up with all the time

It sounds like it. NQ said yesterday to put Wenger to one side for one second after the game. I understand that totally. Not sure where everyone is coming from today.

[Power n Glory]

Totally agree, if you want Wenger our but bcome less vocal about it after a few wins, there's no real conviction in your opinion, it's like someone who wants to win the lottery, tells everyone but never buys a ticket.

Where are people supposed to be more vocal? This is the point. You're looking at immediate reactions to games on AFTV and saying they should still be pissed off despite wanting to celebrate a win.

[selassie]

Well, hopefully it happens to the extent that it gets noticed. I would love to see a half empty stadium.

However it's not going to hurt the club where it really matters - financially.

Wenger was questioned about the number of empty seats seen recently at home games and the proposed boycott of the Sunderland game, his response was we have sold out of tickets on these games so there is no issue.....:rolleyes:

Unbelievable arrogance of the highest order.

Wenger isn't stupid, he understood the point that was being made but as usual refused to go into dialogue about it.

[selassie]

This is like finding your favourite tune on the radio as the car is heading over the cliff. The fact is, if fans give it a rest then that will be immediately seized upon and exploited. Now is the time for fans to be more vocal than ever. By all means, have a cheer that the team is (eventually) winning a few (against very poor opposition it should be added), but the pressure on Wenger must be maintained if we want to translate these few wins into something useful down the line.

Also remember that the last significant test we faced in footballing terms (rather than psychological terms) was against the spuds. And we were played off the pitch. We absolutely needed a point in that game, at the very least. We failed.

What we are really seeing in these last few games is not progress - far, far, far from it. We are witnessing what is being spun into another glorious failure. 2% away. Almost did it. Nearly. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

And look at Wenger's team selections. He's learned fuck all.

Here's what the problem is. The standards of the fans have dropped and now approach Wenger's miserable standards. So we mistranslate what we SHOULD be doing anyway, but have failed to do all season, into some measure of success by comparison to a rancid benchmark.

Wenger deserves no credit whatsoever for this rather embarrassing run-in. All we can say, if we are being truthful, is he's a slightly less outrageous fuck-up than he had the potential to be over the course of this miserable season.

And we still aren't playing well by the way. Not by the standards we have set in the past. We are cheering because we have managed to get back to the very basics during limited phases of the last few matches. We can pass again. We can shoot again. We're even getting the odd cross into the box. Hallelujah. Our so-called rivals, that this abusive and money grabbing board suggested we'd be challenging by now, do all that without effort.

Keep the pressure on because failure to do so will mean failure guaranteed on the pitch. That's probably the outcome regardless, but it's worth fighting against it right up until Wenger's pen hits that contract - if for nothing else than to show that, no, we do not accept these shitty standards.

:gp:

[Özim]

Where are people supposed to be more vocal? This is the point. You're looking at immediate reactions to games on AFTV and saying they should still be pissed off despite wanting to celebrate a win.

Are you saying that when we in they should just celebrate the win and not make feelings about other areas clear. Counterproductive IMO, the club doesn't want people not to turn up, it doesn't really want mass demonstrations, it wants people to be happy because it makes life easier.

At the end of the day, these wins are totally meaningless, they don't take away from a miserable season, they do however take pressure off the club because it seems clear that when we win the protests are muted at best, I just think the mood after 3 wins seems to have changed a lot and the club wil be loving it, Wenger is as arrogant as ever and feels justified...it's become easier and easier for him to sign a new contract. Even if we lose to Chelsea in the cup final (which will will IMO), the excuse will be we lost to the Champions and there's no shame in that, trouble is there is shame in what we've seen this season.

[Özim]

Wenger was questioned about the number of empty seats seen recently at home games and the proposed boycott of the Sunderland game, his response was we have sold out of tickets on these games so there is no issue.....:rolleyes:

Unbelievable arrogance of the highest order.

Wenger isn't stupid, he understood the point that was being made but as usual refused to go into dialogue about it.

The guy always has some kinda smug answer to everything that questions what he's doing, the power has gone to his head and he feels untouchable, as sad state of affairs....he's really destroying this club in more ways than one.

[Özim]

We'll see tomorrow. People who care about these things have tried to organise a sensible protest and they have given fans plenty of notice. So if we can see the effects of that tomorrow, good news. If we get a stadium full of drones then fuck it, the club is done.

Be interesting to see, previous protests haven't gone well even at the height of the anger, I suspect after a few wins people will only be too happy to turn and support the team against a bunch of no hopers.

[Power n Glory]

Are you saying that when we in they should just celebrate the win and not make feelings about other areas clear. Counterproductive IMO, the club doesn't want people not to turn up, it doesn't really want mass demonstrations, it wants people to be happy because it makes life easier.

At the end of the day, these wins are totally meaningless, they don't take away from a miserable season, they do however take pressure off the club because it seems clear that when we win the protests are muted at best, I just think the mood after 3 wins seems to have changed a lot and the club wil be loving it, Wenger is as arrogant as ever and feels justified...it's become easier and easier for him to sign a new contract. Even if we lose to Chelsea in the cup final (which will will IMO), the excuse will be we lost to the Champions and there's no shame in that, trouble is there is shame in what we've seen this season.

You specifically mentioned Arsenal Fan TV as a way to gauge the temperature with fans. What did you see that made you feel as though the people have changed their stance? We're talking about an immediate reaction to a game. People celebrating the result. Not Wenger. You get that, right?

What's counterproductive is you saying Wenger will sign a new contract anyway and there is nothing anyone can do. That sort of thinking is what stops protests and people just accept things as they stand.

[Niall_Quinn]

Has anyone seen Wengers latest press conf. delusional does not even come close to describing it
https://youtu.be/Llfmhyrls7g

“if you look at the Bayern game across the 2 games, in the first half, we were already qualified”?

Got halfway and couldn't bear listening to it. How many times now?

[Özim]

Got halfway and couldn't bear listening to it. How many times now?

God those things are so boring, mundane questioning with irritating tapping away on the laptops in the background, what for to tell us what we already know? How about asking some of the questions we really want know about, how about asking him why every season the team collapses when the big prizes are won and how he thinks he's going to change things.

I noticed he mentions the fact that our recent run show we don't need many changes, just to strenghten the squad a little bit....absolutley clueless.

[Özim]

You specifically mentioned Arsenal Fan TV as a way to gauge the temperature with fans. What did you see that made you feel as though the people have changed their stance? We're talking about an immediate reaction to a game. People celebrating the result. Not Wenger. You get that, right?

What's counterproductive is you saying Wenger will sign a new contract anyway and there is nothing anyone can do. That sort of thinking is what stops protests and people just accept things as they stand.

Barely anyone saying this changes nothing, mainly positives about the performance and the win and the changes in the system etc etc. It's an immediate reaction of course, but if I'm not happy about something I don't sweep it under the carpet because things have gone well that day, it's still a prevalent issue and still one that needs to be voiced at every opportunity.

Do you disagree, especially with the fans seemingly being so indifferent, if the fans were kicking up a fuss and making it almost untenable for him to stay it might be different, it seems that Arsenal fans that have grown up under Wenger just aren't of that breed, they'll stamp their feet once in a while but then storm disappear as quickly as it arrived, it really suggests it's half hearted wish to have Wenger replaced.

At the end of the day if the hierarchy are happy, then why would they change, change would require a monumental effort from fans, one we're just not seeing...at any other club he would have been hounded out by now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

At the end of the day you don't go to games, you don't take part in any active protest yourself and yet you feel content to tell people how they should be responding. The Arsenal fan tv reaction was match reaction to the game vs Stoke, it wasn't reaction to being asked at the 1,000th of asking is Wenger a cunt?.

If you're honestly telling me that Wenger would have got sacked last year if only the fans were vocal enough you out of you're fucking mind. At the end of the day this season as it stands, Wengers future is still up in the air and I would say that's in no small way due to fan protests and the organisation of fan groups, which you Zim have contributed fuck all towards.

As I said to you before, if you think the fans should be more vociferous towards Wenger you should perhaps show them how it's done. But I suspect it's easier for you to stand back and be a dickhead.

[Özim]

At the end of the day you don't go to games, you don't take part in any active protest yourself and yet you feel content to tell people how they should be responding. The Arsenal fan tv reaction was match reaction to the game vs Stoke, it wasn't reaction to being asked at the 1,000th of asking is Wenger a cunt?.

If you're honestly telling me that Wenger would have got sacked last year if only the fans were vocal enough you out of you're fucking mind. At the end of the day this season as it stands, Wengers future is still up in the air and I would say that's in no small way due to fan protests and the organisation of fan groups, which you Zim have contributed fuck all towards.

As I said to you before, if you think the fans should be more vociferous towards Wenger you should perhaps show them how it's done. But I suspect it's easier for you to stand back and be a dickhead.

So what? Doesn't stop me having an opinion I'll say what I like and noone can tell me what I am and I'm not entitled to say. As NQ pointed out for the 1000th time, match reaction or not it makes little difference it's all about whether the pressure is off the manager and club and it is.

Is Wengers future up in the air or has it been decided and are they just waiting for the season to end to announce it, they way I see it only a big effort from the fans could have any influence on this and it seems to me tha'ts gone up in a cloud of smoke, yes there was some bad feeling when we went on a horrible losing run but a lot of that has disappeared now, despite the fact you just put it down to "celebrating a win".

At the end of the day I don't go to matches and don't line their pockets, ultimately that's what keeps this regime going, if they didn't turn up you can bet your bottom dollar Wenger wouldn't still be there, so yes matchday fans have to make a stand otherwise nothing will change.

Oh and your petty insults really undermines your argument.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I've never said you can't say whatever you want

I just happen to think telling people what they should or should not be doing when you haven't lifted a finger towards the end of getting Wenger out makes you a massive hypocrite.

I get tired of the wankers on social media who never go to games throwing insults at fellow fans for not being respectful to the decrepit old dinosaur, without armchair fans on the other side giving them abuse as well for being too passive. So equally if you can't stand to have your opinions scrutinised don't publish them.

Everything you've said still amounts to you believing that the atmosphere should be bad. I know this is hard for someone like you to understand, but being a football fan means you enjoy watching football and watching your team win. People don't enjoy bad atmospheres the way you do.

People don't travel the length of the country to have the arse ache. You can carry banners expressing how you feel or fly planes (like the one at the Britannia which was crowd sourced) but again saying the team played well today is not saying "I want Wenger to stay" it's having an objective view when asked about the singular game.

Do you know what the irony is Zim, you're exactly like Wenger....entrenched in your own sense of being right at the exclusion of all else.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Wenger was questioned about the number of empty seats seen recently at home games and the proposed boycott of the Sunderland game, his response was we have sold out of tickets on these games so there is no issue.....:rolleyes:

Unbelievable arrogance of the highest order.

Wenger isn't stupid, he understood the point that was being made but as usual refused to go into dialogue about it.

Wenger talks about what he wants to talk about. The old excuse that he was only responding to a question when he utters some bullshit about crap that is nothing to do with him is gone.

He has lots to say about bollox that is nothing to do with our Club, but when there is something important, something staring him in the face, like the Club being torn apart and fans fighting fans, he has fuck all to say because the money is still rolling in for this shitshow.

And the amount of fans that turn up tonight is immaterial because that ain't going on the balance sheet.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wenger talks about what he wants to talk about. The old excuse that he was only responding to a question when he utters some bullshit about crap that is nothing to do with him is gone.

He has lots to say about bollox that is nothing to do with our Club, but when there is something important, something staring him in the face, like the Club being torn apart and fans fighting fans, he has fuck all to say because the money is still rolling in for this shitshow.

And the amount of fans that turn up tonight is immaterial because that ain't going on the balance sheet.

Also there are a lot of tickets on general sale which might get taken up (although i doubt it) so will be interesting how the club try to spin this.

It's not a surprise though he has tried already to state that the fans who want him out are a small group of malcontents and that the majority of fans are on board with his nonsense.

[Özim]

I've never said you can't say whatever you want I just happen to think telling people what they should or should not be doing when you haven't lifted a finger towards the end of getting Wenger out makes you a massive hypocrite. I get tired of the wankers on social media who never go to games throwing insults at fellow fans for not being respectful to the decrepit old dinosaur, without armchair fans on the other side giving them abuse as well for being too passive. So equally if you can't stand to have your opinions scrutinised don't publish them. Everything you've said still amounts to you believing that the atmosphere should be bad. I know this is hard for someone like you to understand, but being a football fan means you enjoy watching football and watching your team win. People don't enjoy bad atmospheres the way you do. People don't travel the length of the country to have the arse ache. You can carry banners expressing how you feel or fly planes (like the one at the Britannia which was crowd sourced) but again saying the team played well today is not saying "I want Wenger to stay" it's having an objective view when asked about the singular game. Do you know what the irony is Zim, you're exactly like Wenger....entrenched in your own sense of being right at the exclusion of all else. People are allowed opinions and that's what I'm expressing, but ignorig that it's actually logic, do you really think there's any chance of Wenger going if everyone appears happy, doesn't kick up a fuss and everything appears hunky-dory. Your stance is kinda strange on the one hand you say you want Wenger out and yet you don't support what would be required to achieve this. As for enjoying watching football, I don't enjoy it because it's largely rubbish, yes we get the odd decent result but it's an anomaly in an otherwise repetitive cycle we've seen for 10+ years, there's nothing enjoyable about that, besides if being a football fan involves being taken for a mug then I'll give it a miss thanks, because quite frankly the club take the mick. It's nothing to do with a ense of being right, it's just logic.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger talks about what he wants to talk about. The old excuse that he was only responding to a question when he utters some bullshit about crap that is nothing to do with him is gone.

He has lots to say about bollox that is nothing to do with our Club, but when there is something important, something staring him in the face, like the Club being torn apart and fans fighting fans, he has fuck all to say because the money is still rolling in for this shitshow.

And the amount of fans that turn up tonight is immaterial because that ain't going on the balance sheet.

A really good point. It’s interesting watching his behaviour during this period. I’ve lost a lot of respect for him.

[Power n Glory]

Zim, this is where the argument falls flat.


If you use AFTV as a guide of what fans think, then they seem encouraged by the tactical change and the results and seemingly seem reasonably happy

You can't form an overall opinion of the fans stance on Wenger from AFTV people being happy with results.

[Gooner23]

A really good point. It’s interesting watching his behaviour during this period. I’ve lost a lot of respect for him.

Me too.

His latest whinging that some teams are now not giving their all because its the end of the season and they are safe is just another example of when he'd be better off keeping his mouth shut. I am assuming its a dig at West Ham for rolling over against Liverpool, even though Stoke did the same for us just 24 hours previously. Plus it completely misses the point that we fully deserve to be where we are in the league. We were nothing short of pathetic in the months when we were still in touch with the league leaders.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

People are allowed opinions and that's what I'm expressing, but ignorig that it's actually logic, do you really think there's any chance of Wenger going if everyone appears happy, doesn't kick up a fuss and everything appears hunky-dory. Your stance is kinda strange on the one hand you say you want Wenger out and yet you don't support what would be required to achieve this. As for enjoying watching football, I don't enjoy it because it's largely rubbish, yes we get the odd decent result but it's an anomaly in an otherwise repetitive cycle we've seen for 10+ years, there's nothing enjoyable about that, besides if being a football fan involves being taken for a mug then I'll give it a miss thanks, because quite frankly the club take the mick. It's nothing to do with a ense of being right, it's just logic.

I honestly think if fans start whinging despite what the results and performances are, it's easier for the club and the media to pin them as being difficult, entitled and unreasonable.

But still comes back to the point, what are you personally doing to get Wenger out of the club?. You point the fingers at other people but what are you doing rather than sitting back and being critical.....which seems a rather comfortable position to take.

And again the arrogance to tell people what they should or shouldn't enjoy. People being happy with a one off result doesn't mean they are happy with the season and this preoccupation with yours that fans have to be miserable and testy at all times in case Wenger is able to use it to embolden himself is frankly bizarre.

What i'm hearing from you is your own sense of insecurity, that in fact you are deflecting your own sense of nervousness and unhappiness with us winning because it makes Wenger more likely to stay. If you were honest enough to admit that i would have more sympathy, I don't think there is a single person on this site who wasn't concerned that finishing top four would confirm Wenger staying and without any checks and balances on his excesses.....and that includes myself.

But if you are going to every single game because you are a dedicated fan, and you find the constant bad atmosphere and toxicity draining, why on earth would you seek to look for it. People don't revel in it, it's exhausting and depressing so like I say if they want to just have some enjoyment from a result and a performance that wasn't terrible.....I find it bizarre that you resent this so much.

Or actually I don't, I would expect someone who feels that way to be more prepared to take matters into their own hands but you won't will you. You will be content sitting back and blaming other people.

[Power n Glory]

Me too.

His latest whinging that some teams are now not giving their all because its the end of the season and they are safe is just another example of when he'd be better off keeping his mouth shut. I am assuming its a dig at West Ham for rolling over against Liverpool, even though Stoke did the same for us just 24 hours previously. Plus it completely misses the point that we fully deserve to be where we are in the league. We were nothing short of pathetic in the months when we were still in touch with the league leaders.

I caught a glimpse of that story this morning and was just reading Pep's response.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/pep-guardiola-arsene-wenger-arsenal-10428609

You can see why people don't like him. Voyeur. :lol: Why is he watching other teams and not his own?

[Letters]

do you really think there's any chance of Wenger going if everyone appears happy, doesn't kick up a fuss and everything appears hunky-dory.
Do you think people kicking up a fuss in any way increases the chance of him going? You always say how he doesn't care what the fans think, are you now arguing that kicking up a fuss will make a difference? IMO the only thing that makes a difference is to just stop going. We are collectively the source of the money the club have, if we agree the board are only motivated by money then we have the power to remove that source but it can only work if it's a collective action, which it won't be.


As for enjoying watching football, I don't enjoy it because it's largely rubbish, yes we get the odd decent result
Like the 'thoroughly enjoyable' 92/93 season then? :d

Always amusing to hear you talk about logic by the way.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I caught a glimpse of that story this morning and was just reading Pep's response.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/pep-guardiola-arsene-wenger-arsenal-10428609

You can see why people don't like him. Voyeur. :lol: Why is he watching other teams and not his own?

Ha I love the mature way the Mirror has dealt with the topic at the bottom with their "Who would win in a fight?" poll

But Wenger of all people has no right to claim other teams are taking it easily, I have West Ham fans in my office and they are constantly at pains to tell me how bad their injury crisis is.

Man United - A team where the manager said he wasn't prioritising Champions league qualification via the league route and rested Pogba and Fellaini against us

Southampton and Stoke - two mid table teams who have confirmed their premier league status and who are the archetypal example of teams that have "gone on their holidays".

Personally i'm glad to hear him talk like this, he's bricking it because he knows that he's under pressure and is trying to get his excuses in. Not that i'm comparing him to Ferguson ability wise, but this is exactly the kind of Ferguson deflection tactic.

The media might have an inquest into how teams with nothing to play for perform near the end of the season, though i doubt it.

[Özim]

Zim, this is where the argument falls flat.



You can't form an overall opinion of the fans stance on Wenger from AFTV people being happy with results.

That's debateable, after a defeat they are all over it criticising him, saying he needs to go etc, but after a win they talk about how great it was and don't generally still maintain that it's a good result but it's still time for him to leave.

[Özim]

Do you think people kicking up a fuss in any way increases the chance of him going? You always say how he doesn't care what the fans think, are you now arguing that kicking up a fuss will make a difference? IMO the only thing that makes a difference is to just stop going. We are collectively the source of the money the club have, if we agree the board are only motivated by money then we have the power to remove that source but it can only work if it's a collective action, which it won't be.


Like the 'thoroughly enjoyable' 92/93 season then? :d

Always amusing to hear you talk about logic by the way.

It can't hurt, it certainly puts him under pressure, noone like to have their name banded about as the villain and people wanting them out, he might not care but you can't help but feel pressure and unhappy about that when it's directed at you, whatever you say in public. I agree stopping going it the best method, but let's be real, that's not going to happen, people just don't feel strongly enough to do that, and if you've paid your money I understand.

I enjoyed football more then yes and even in 92/93 it was unpredictable, we weren't the best side but we still upset the odds and won two trophies through sheer determination and yes I know you'll talk about the league, fact is though we played weakened sides for much of that season as we were progressing in the cups, we sacrificed the league for the cups hence the reason we had poor results.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It can't hurt, it certainly puts him under pressure, noone like to have their name banded about as the villain and people wanting them out, he might not care but you can't help but feel pressure and unhappy about that when it's directed at you, whatever you say in public. I agree stopping going it the best method, but let's be real, that's not going to happen, people just don't feel strongly enough to do that, and if you've paid your money I understand.

I enjoyed football more then yes and even in 92/93 it was unpredictable, we weren't the best side but we still upset the odds and won two trophies through sheer determination and yes I know you'll talk about the league, fact is though we played weakened sides for much of that season as we were progressing in the cups, we sacrificed the league for the cups hence the reason we had poor results.

It's swings and roundabouts

There were good games in some of the cup runs (Ipswich in the quarter final for instance)

But largely the football was turgid, not to say it's not now but my point is consistently that when you are seeing turgid football so often, it's a refreshing change and for you to insist they have to constantly say they want wenger out is like an insecure boyfriend who needs to be told by his girlfriend every hour that she still loves him otherwise his mind is wracked with doubt that her affections have gone elsewhere.

[Özim]

I honestly think if fans start whinging despite what the results and performances are, it's easier for the club and the media to pin them as being difficult, entitled and unreasonable.

But still comes back to the point, what are you personally doing to get Wenger out of the club?. You point the fingers at other people but what are you doing rather than sitting back and being critical.....which seems a rather comfortable position to take.

And again the arrogance to tell people what they should or shouldn't enjoy. People being happy with a one off result doesn't mean they are happy with the season and this preoccupation with yours that fans have to be miserable and testy at all times in case Wenger is able to use it to embolden himself is frankly bizarre.

What i'm hearing from you is your own sense of insecurity, that in fact you are deflecting your own sense of nervousness and unhappiness with us winning because it makes Wenger more likely to stay. If you were honest enough to admit that i would have more sympathy, I don't think there is a single person on this site who wasn't concerned that finishing top four would confirm Wenger staying and without any checks and balances on his excesses.....and that includes myself.

But if you are going to every single game because you are a dedicated fan, and you find the constant bad atmosphere and toxicity draining, why on earth would you seek to look for it. People don't revel in it, it's exhausting and depressing so like I say if they want to just have some enjoyment from a result and a performance that wasn't terrible.....I find it bizarre that you resent this so much.

Or actually I don't, I would expect someone who feels that way to be more prepared to take matters into their own hands but you won't will you. You will be content sitting back and blaming other people.

We've seen it before with other clubs and it's not how it's painted at all, the media love a bit of news your scenario would not happen IMO.

I don't put money into their coffers for a start, if everyone did that they'd soon change, however this isn't about me, clearly people will still turn up, so if they want to their entitled to, but at the same time if they want Wenger out (which you say they do) then what just sit there and accept whats going on...is that what you're saying? No wonder Wenger is comfortable, match fans from other clubs kick up a fuss when they're not happy with something but at Arsenal it's all swept under the carpet....and you wonder why we're in a position we are?

Yes I do think winning makes him more likely to stay, it like is has in previous years papers over the cracks, yes we have picked up a few wins, but lets logic at it objectively, what do these wins actually mean in the grand scheme of things, what relevance do they have?

So as a fan who gos to matches and wants change, it's better to sit there and do nothing because it becomes toxic if you do and you don't enjoy it? That must mean they are happy with what they are seeing in that case, or at the very least not that unhappy. I don't get how you can get enjoyment out of see this club in such a mess to be honest and watching a few matches paper over the cracks, the manager himself has been getting more smug with every game, is that a pleasurable scenario, he's even now said we don't need to change much.

My understanding of your argument is, let's get Wenger out but let's not say or do anything during match days and let's keep going to games, ok fine but that guarantees he'll stay and if that's the case then people clearly can't want him out enough if they know that.

I'm not blaming others btw, I'm just saying that if people do want him out (which you and many others say they do) then surely acting in the same way they have in the last 10+ years isn't going to achieve that. IMO the respect for Wenger is way over the top, at any other club he would have been houdned out by now (by the fans), but it seems at Arsenal it's not the done thing for some reason.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We've seen it before with other clubs and it's not how it's painted at all, the media love a bit of news your scenario would not happen IMO.

I don't put money into their coffers for a start, if everyone did that they'd soon change, however this isn't about me, clearly people will still turn up, so if they want to their entitled to, but at the same time if they want Wenger out (which you say they do) then what just sit there and accept whats going on...is that what you're saying? No wonder Wenger is comfortable, match fans from other clubs kick up a fuss when they're not happy with something but at Arsenal it's all swept under the carpet....and you wonder why we're in a position we are?

Yes I do think winning makes him more likely to stay, it like is has in previous years papers over the cracks, yes we have picked up a few wins, but lets logic at it objectively, what do these wins actually mean in the grand scheme of things, what relevance do they have?

So as a fan who gos to matches and wants change, it's better to sit there and do nothing because it becomes toxic if you do and you don't enjoy it? That must mean they are happy with what they are seeing in that case, or at the very least not that unhappy. I don't get how you can get enjoyment out of see this club in such a mess to be honest and watching a few matches paper over the cracks, the manager himself has been getting more smug with every game, is that a pleasurable scenario, he's even now said we don't need to change much.

My understanding of your argument is, let's get Wenger out but let's not say or do anything during match days and let's keep going to games, ok fine but that guarantees he'll stay and if that's the case then people clearly can't want him out enough if they know that.

I'm not blaming others btw, I'm just saying that if people do want him out (which you and many others say they do) then surely acting in the same way they have in the last 10+ years isn't going to achieve that. IMO the respect for Wenger is way over the top, at any other club he would have been houdned out by now (by the fans), but it seems at Arsenal it's not the done thing for some reason.

He was not hounded out because whether you want to accept it or not as frustrating as it is he kept us stable for a long period. Did he make a power grab and become totally unaccountable? Did he make it harder to recruit better players because of sticking with players that weren't good enough again yes for sure.

Top Four doesn't mean much in itself, but it means we are now in a position where our long term future is secure. The clubs that would have hounded out Wenger are the clubs that were already big enough to begin with, if you are telling me Liverpool or Tottenham would have dispensed with the services of a manager who was consistently getting them top four revenue with little transfer outlay you are out of your mind.....his wage seems ridiculous in that in terms of getting us big trophies he is nowhere near, but from the club's point of view he was worth every penny.

Now we are in a situation where the manager is massively past his sell by date has bought into his own hype in an unbelievable way and acts as if he has a tangible record to cling to when the last three seasons at least have seen increased transfer outlay but absolutely no progression on the field.

And we are in fact going backward because other clubs have the ruthless ambition our board has not shown when it comes to football

At the end of the day now is the right time to demand change, because he has been given three years to prove he's not past it and he's failed. It's ridiculous to say that Wenger would have been less smug if there had been more mardy fans after the Stoke game (there was a big aerial protest during the game which you have casually dismissed). You act as if he's Donald Trump who feverishly watches Arsenal Fan TV to take the pulse of Arsenal fans.

End of the day we know that it's where we finish in the league more than anything which will determine his fate, plus Wenger last year acknowledged that he was only ever a few bad results from a fan revolt (and this was during a long unbeaten spell). So again what i'm telling you is that you are talking nonsense, and you are projecting your own insecurity onto other people.

[Özim]

He was not hounded out because whether you want to accept it or not as frustrating as it is he kept us stable for a long period. Did he make a power grab and become totally unaccountable? Did he make it harder to recruit better players because of sticking with players that weren't good enough again yes for sure.

Top Four doesn't mean much in itself, but it means we are now in a position where our long term future is secure. The clubs that would have hounded out Wenger are the clubs that were already big enough to begin with, if you are telling me Liverpool or Tottenham would have dispensed with the services of a manager who was consistently getting them top four revenue with little transfer outlay you are out of your mind.....his wage seems ridiculous in that in terms of getting us big trophies he is nowhere near, but from the club's point of view he was worth every penny.

Now we are in a situation where the manager is massively past his sell by date has bought into his own hype in an unbelievable way and acts as if he has a tangible record to cling to when the last three seasons at least have seen increased transfer outlay but absolutely no progression on the field.

And we are in fact going backward because other clubs have the ruthless ambition our board has not shown when it comes to football

At the end of the day now is the right time to demand change, because he has been given three years to prove he's not past it and he's failed. It's ridiculous to say that Wenger would have been less smug if there had been more mardy fans after the Stoke game (there was a big aerial protest during the game which you have casually dismissed). You act as if he's Donald Trump who feverishly watches Arsenal Fan TV to take the pulse of Arsenal fans.

End of the day we know that it's where we finish in the league more than anything which will determine his fate, plus Wenger last year acknowledged that he was only ever a few bad results from a fan revolt (and this was during a long unbeaten spell). So again what i'm telling you is that you are talking nonsense, and you are projecting your own insecurity onto other people.

Stable non achievers yes, which is what the board want because they only care about money not football, no other big club would have put up with it, including Spurs and Liverpool, 4th place is a stepping stone nothing more and both those clubs would have looked to have progressed, what he's done is only valued at Arsenal because the club have set this as some kind of marker of success, it isn't.

Hes definitely mor smug since we've been winning and demonstrations have calmed down, some of his comments are patronising to the highest degree, so there's no doubt in my mind the wins, the lack of protest and people being happy makes life easier for him, I agree fans don't matter to hi but if you had 60000 fans on your back I'm not sure you'd be content.

Where we finish in the league won't determine whether he stays, IMO he's staying and people don't seem overly bothered by that, it looks like we've signed some freebie as well, if we have we wouldn't be doing so before we got another manager. What I find amazing however is that he's constantly sniping at fans and patronising them and they seem happy to accept this from a man who would be nothing without them.

The guy has been stringing it out waiting for results to improve so he can soften the blow, he's hoping for a cup win, I reckon he's deluded because Chelsea are a better team and will send us packing.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Stable non achievers yes, which is what the board want because they only care about money not football, no other big club would have put up with it, including Spurs and Liverpool, 4th place is a stepping stone nothing more and both those clubs would have looked to have progressed, what he's done is only valued at Arsenal because the club have set this as some kind of marker of success, it isn't.

Hes definitely mor smug since we've been winning and demonstrations have calmed down, some of his comments are patronising to the highest degree, so there's no doubt in my mind the wins, the lack of protest and people being happy makes life easier for him, I agree fans don't matter to hi but if you had 60000 fans on your back I'm not sure you'd be content.

Where we finish in the league won't determine whether he stays, IMO he's staying and people don't seem overly bothered by that, it looks like we've signed some freebie as well, if we have we wouldn't be doing so before we got another manager. What I find amazing however is that he's constantly sniping at fans and patronising them and they seem happy to accept this from a man who would be nothing without them.

The guy has been stringing it out waiting for results to improve so he can soften the blow, he's hoping for a cup win, I reckon he's deluded because Chelsea are a better team and will send us packing.

Both Liverpool and Spurs have won less than us in the last ten years, and yet you are honestly saying they wouldn't have stuck with a manager who consistently got them top four?....especially if they were looking to finance a stadium move (like Liverpool tried to do and Spurs are doing).

So are Pochetino or Klopp going to get sacked if neither wins the premier league in the next few years?

Sorry mate, but you've proved to me that you are totally full of shit.

[Özim]

Both Liverpool and Spurs have won less than us in the last ten years, and yet you are honestly saying they wouldn't have stuck with a manager who consistently got them top four?....especially if they were looking to finance a stadium move (like Liverpool tried to do and Spurs are doing).

So are Pochetino or Klopp going to get sacked if neither wins the premier league in the next few years?

Sorry mate, but you've proved to me that you are totally full of shit.

Yes but it's not for want of trying, 4th place isn't what they are interested in, they want trophies and Wenger doesn't deliver that so would have been shown the door IMO. If they challenge for the title and don't win it they will get more leeway or if they pick up a trophy or two again it will buy them time, but ultimately there will be a time when if they don't win they'll be shown the door, both those clubs have ambitions to be successful at the end of the day.

Prove it? That's right you can't, fact is not every club is lacking ambition like Arsenal, Arsenal fans have been brought up thinking 4th place is the holy grail and thus they think all other clubs think the same way. I'll say it again no other big club would have stuck with Wenger if all he'd done is got a CL place every season without competing properly for big trophies for over a decade. Thing is this wouldn't happen at any other club, other managers would take a chance and gamble a bit more to win big trophies, which in the end could be successful or lead them to be sacked due to poor performances, Wenger is one of the few managers around who lacks any kind of ambition or need to win.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yes but it's not for want of trying, 4th place isn't what they are interested in, they want trophies and Wenger doesn't deliver that so would have been shown the door IMO. If they challenge for the title and don't win it they will get more leeway or if they pick up a trophy or two again it will buy them time, but ultimately there will be a time when if they don't win they'll be shown the door, both those clubs have ambitions to be successful at the end of the day.

Prove it? That's right you can't, fact is not every club is lacking ambition like Arsenal, Arsenal fans have been brought up thinking 4th place is the holy grail and thus they think all other clubs think the same way. I'll say it again no other big club would have stuck with Wenger if all he'd done is got a CL place every season without competing properly for big trophies for over a decade.

You can say it as many times as you like, if a club was trying to finance a stadium move than constant 4th place finishes would be welcome.

When a club is looking to secure it's long term finances, it's going to mean very little to it to challenge for the title and finish a close second only to finish 6th or 7th the next season.

The difference now is the finances are secure and things still aren't getting better, and we have an arrogant trilobyte who thinks the club owes him a living. There is absolutely no reason to give him a contract extension now, but three years ago especially it would not have been unreasonable to say well you had to sell some of your best players in the past and you've still made top four, you can spend now and you have three seasons to take the club on (i didn't think it was a good idea as i thought he had too many deficiencies as a manager).

The damning inditement is that the club has had three years to plan for moving on from Wenger and it's made no attempt to give him less power or get a succession in place (and i agree this is part and parcel of a lack of ambition shown by Stan Kroenke as treating the club as an asset in his property portfolio)

With the exception of Gerard Houllier in 2004, have either liverpool or spurs sacked a manager for finishing in the top four?. And in fact haven't liverpool sacked managers more on the basis of failure to qualify for the competition?

If you were honestly expecting Wenger to be sacked prior to 2014, i would say it's just as well you don't run a large business yourself.

[Niall_Quinn]

Me too.

His latest whinging that some teams are now not giving their all because its the end of the season and they are safe is just another example of when he'd be better off keeping his mouth shut. I am assuming its a dig at West Ham for rolling over against Liverpool, even though Stoke did the same for us just 24 hours previously. Plus it completely misses the point that we fully deserve to be where we are in the league. We were nothing short of pathetic in the months when we were still in touch with the league leaders.

Yeah, it's despicable. If we're relying on West Ham to do the job for us it tells us everything we need to know about our manager. He's become the biggest loser in football. He sets out to lose and his main job has become spinning failure as success. That's why we've been kings of the Top 4 Trophy for so long - failing to compete for the title has become our definition of success. He's also started on his, "Everyone else didn't win the title either...", bullshit that he normally leaves until the end of season excuse-fest. Getting it in early this year. And there was that vague comment about the difficulties the poor team has had to face this season. A dig at the fans for speaking truth to his face.

The man's despicable. He reminds me of a politician - a lying bastard that claims to be a public servant while pursuing the exact opposite agenda.

Double figures behind the champions again - that's all that counts. We can scrape 4th, win a cup, but double figures behind the champions AGAIN means this man is not doing his job and that's the real story of it. He can shove his digs at the fans up his hole. Never has there been a more patient set of fans and he's abused that up, down and sideways.

[Özim]

You can say it as many times as you like, if a club was trying to finance a stadium move than constant 4th place finishes would be welcome.

When a club is looking to secure it's long term finances, it's going to mean very little to it to challenge for the title and finish a close second only to finish 6th or 7th the next season.

The difference now is the finances are secure and things still aren't getting better, and we have an arrogant trilobyte who thinks the club owes him a living. There is absolutely no reason to give him a contract extension now, but three years ago especially it would not have been unreasonable to say well you had to sell some of your best players in the past and you've still made top four, you can spend now and you have three seasons to take the club on (i didn't think it was a good idea as i thought he had too many deficiencies as a manager).

The damning inditement is that the club has had three years to plan for moving on from Wenger and it's made no attempt to give him less power or get a succession in place (and i agree this is part and parcel of a lack of ambition shown by Stan Kroenke as treating the club as an asset in his property portfolio)

With the exception of Gerard Houllier in 2004, have either liverpool or spurs sacked a manager for finishing in the top four?. And in fact haven't liverpool sacked managers more on the basis of failure to qualify for the competition?

If you were honestly expecting Wenger to be sacked prior to 2014, i would say it's just as well you don't run a large business yourself.

What so Spurs are going to settle for 4th now they are financing the stadium, I doubt it very much personally, besides the rubbish we were fed about the stadium was lies, we were told the team wouldn't suffer, that there's no point having a world class stadium without a world class team playing in it...this club is setup to make money and that's al lit cares about, other clubs however see success as a way of growing and thus see success as the goal.

Other managers like Houllier didn't settle for top 4, they want to win trophies, conequently they gambled, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, fact is no other manager would just settle like Wenger has, he's very odd like that, winning doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things to him, he prefers to make money for the club and indulge in pet projects. Liverpool sack managers on the basis they aren't seeing progress no on the fact they don't qualify for the CL, at the end of the day if you qualify every season there comes a time when people will ask where is the improvement, noone settles for being 2nd best, you start somewhere and try to improve, just like Spurs are trying to do.

[Niall_Quinn]

Do you think people kicking up a fuss in any way increases the chance of him going? You always say how he doesn't care what the fans think, are you now arguing that kicking up a fuss will make a difference? IMO the only thing that makes a difference is to just stop going. We are collectively the source of the money the club have, if we agree the board are only motivated by money then we have the power to remove that source but it can only work if it's a collective action, which it won't be.


Like the 'thoroughly enjoyable' 92/93 season then? :d

Always amusing to hear you talk about logic by the way.

Of course it makes a difference. When will it make a difference is the question. It would be interesting to take a look at how normal fans have ousted managers in the past. I don't have that information to hand but, if I looked, I suspect I'd find far less tolerance. Maybe TIB can chime in and relate how the Liverpool fans dealt with that other massive fraud Hodgson. Was there anyone left in that fanbase who thought it was a good idea to patiently wait for that guy to come good?

Anyway, it's pretty damn obvious that if fans sit on their hands through season after season of shite but the owner is happy with each outcome, nothing will ever change. The fact Wenger is even being considered for 2 more years is beyond belief, given his unerring record of failure. This tells us everything we need to know about the owner and the board. So who will change things? Yes, Wenger is an arrogant bastard who discounts the fans out of hand. But it's not him the fans are trying to influence.

[Özim]

Yeah, it's despicable. If we're relying on West Ham to do the job for us it tells us everything we need to know about our manager. He's become the biggest loser in football. He sets out to lose and his main job has become spinning failure as success. That's why we've been kings of the Top 4 Trophy for so long - failing to compete for the title has become our definition of success. He's also started on his, "Everyone else didn't win the title either...", bullshit that he normally leaves until the end of season excuse-fest. Getting it in early this year. And there was that vague comment about the difficulties the poor team has had to face this season. A dig at the fans for speaking truth to his face.

The man's despicable. He reminds me of a politician - a lying bastard that claims to be a public servant while pursuing the exact opposite agenda.

Double figures behind the champions again - that's all that counts. We can scrape 4th, win a cup, but double figures behind the champions AGAIN means this man is not doing his job and that's the real story of it. He can shove his digs at the fans up his hole. Never has there been a more patient set of fans and he's abused that up, down and sideways.

He's also trying to paint this season as progression don't forget by saying he won the title with 78 points, the arrogance of the man is unbelievable, someone ask him some questions that put him under some pressure and question his achievements in the last decade for goodness sake, trouble is if they did he'd react like a petulant child that think he knows it all. Embarassing.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What so Spurs are going to settle for 4th now they are financing the stadium, I doubt it very much personally, besides the rubbish we were fed about the stadium was lies, we were told the team wouldn't suffer, that there's no point having a world class stadium without a world class team playing in it...this club is setup to make money and that's al lit cares about, other clubs however see success as a way of growing and thus see success as the goal.

Other managers like Houllier didn't settle for top 4, they want to win trophies, conequently they gambled, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, fact is no other manager would just settle like Wenger has, he's very odd like that, winning doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things to him, he prefers to make money for the club and indulge in pet projects. Liverpool sack managers on the basis they aren't seeing progress no on the fact they don't qualify for the CL, at the end of the day if you qualify every season there comes a time when people will ask where is the improvement, noone settles for being 2nd best, you start somewhere and try to improve, just like Spurs are trying to do.

Yes without a doubt if Pochetinno didn't finish outside the top four for the next five years, his position would be totally safe.

However the difference is Pochettino would have left long before then for something bigger himself

[Özim]

Of course it makes a difference. When will it make a difference is the question. It would be interesting to take a look at how normal fans have ousted managers in the past. I don't have that information to hand but, if I looked, I suspect I'd find far less tolerance. Maybe TIB can chime in and relate how the Liverpool fans dealt with that other massive fraud Hodgson. Was there anyone left in that fanbase who thought it was a good idea to patiently wait for that guy to come good?

Anyway, it's pretty damn obvious that if fans sit on their hands through season after season of shite but the owner is happy with each outcome, nothing will ever change. The fact Wenger is even being considered for 2 more years is beyond belief, given his unerring record of failure. This tells us everything we need to know about the owner and the board. So who will change things? Yes, Wenger is an arrogant bastard who discounts the fans out of hand. But it's not him the fans are trying to influence.

Totall agree, at the end of the day fans can create problems for the club and become a cause for irritation and pressure which ultimately can lead to change, when things were going wrong you could see the club were sweating a little bit and that was just for a few fans, get a lot more involved who go to matches and they're bound to stand up and take notice eventually.

It's win win for the board really, put as little in as possible and take out as much as you can, all with the fans seemingly content enough not to create a fuss, why change a good thing, keep it going for as long as you can!

[Özim]

Yes without a doubt if Pochetinno didn't finish outside the top four for the next five years, his position would be totally safe.

However the difference is Pochettino would have left long before then for something bigger himself

If all he did is finish top 4 questions would be asked, certainly by fans about which direction the club is going, particularly if they never compete in the CL like us, other clubs work differently and a CL place is a stepping stone to greater things, if there's no progression after that it's not good enough, there's only so long a club will settle for the same thing every season, particularly if what happens on the pitch matters to them.

Qualifying for the CL is pointless if you don't ever compete in it at the end of the day, sure financially it's great but if you're a club who see's footballing success as something important and can look beyong the cash cow of the CL and see that being successful actually brings greater rewards financially as well, you won't settle for just qualifying.

I agree however that he would leave because he has ambition, something Wenger lacks.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If all he did is finish top 4 questions would be asked, certainly by fans about which direction the club is going, particularly if they never compete in the CL like us, other clubs work differently and a CL place is a stepping stone to greater things, if there's no progression after that it's not good enough, there's only so long a club will settle for the same thing every season, particularly if what happens on the pitch matters to them.

I agree however that he would leave because he has ambition, something Wenger lacks.

Club boards think long term, if spurs had five-ten years where they were finishing fourth but nothing else they would take the safe option.....would the fans get a bit fed up? yeah but until it got to the point where we are at now they wouldn't be calling for the manager to be sacked (certainly not the majority anyway).

You would add to that, that Spurs have no recent history of success so consistently finishing in the top four would be a step up for them.

The likelihood is that they will have to sell the likes of Kane etc in the short term, so actually Pochetinno would be performing minor miracles to get the club into the champions league each season.

The difference is now we have expanded and come out the other side with no noticeable difference and that's why there's no justification for Wenger to remain because we don't need that stability anymore, we can afford as a club to make bold moves.

Oh and by the way I have a liverpool fan sitting opposite of me, and he laughed when i told him your suggestion that his club would have sacked a manager who constantly finished in the top 4 no matter what else he achieved.

[selassie]

Yeah, it's despicable. If we're relying on West Ham to do the job for us it tells us everything we need to know about our manager. He's become the biggest loser in football. He sets out to lose and his main job has become spinning failure as success. That's why we've been kings of the Top 4 Trophy for so long - failing to compete for the title has become our definition of success. He's also started on his, "Everyone else didn't win the title either...", bullshit that he normally leaves until the end of season excuse-fest. Getting it in early this year. And there was that vague comment about the difficulties the poor team has had to face this season. A dig at the fans for speaking truth to his face.

The man's despicable. He reminds me of a politician - a lying bastard that claims to be a public servant while pursuing the exact opposite agenda.

Double figures behind the champions again - that's all that counts. We can scrape 4th, win a cup, but double figures behind the champions AGAIN means this man is not doing his job and that's the real story of it. He can shove his digs at the fans up his hole. Never has there been a more patient set of fans and he's abused that up, down and sideways.

Classic Wenger deflection tactics.

He did the same thing last season when he had the nerve to say Arsenal had done their bit in the title race by beating Leicester twice, apparently it was up to the other teams to defeat Leicester too in order for Arsenal to win the title, yeah...that's not quite how it works :rolleyes:

He is boring and transparent...