Match reacton - Soton

[Cripps]

Bullied by Charlie Austin :lol:

Be careful what you wish for :lol:

Mertesacker :lol:

Head of academy :lol: Herbert :haha:

Disappointing weekend. Draw for MK Dons too :(

[McNamara That Ghost...]

To be fair, our players were very tired from their midweek exertions in training and no match to prepare for.

[Niall_Quinn]

WHEN?

HOW LONG?

Why is he still here?

It's the same season on auto-repeat.

What's the point of it?

What's the point of this club any more?

GET OUT!

[Cripps]

WHEN?

HOW LONG?

Why is he still here?

It's the same season on auto-repeat.

What's the point of it?

What's the point of this club any more?

GET OUT!

Why do you watch Arsenal games?

[Niall_Quinn]

Why do you watch Arsenal games?

I don't. I watch half the game.

[hobson's choice]

Get a real central midfield old man

[Xhaka Can’t]

I don't. I watch half the game.

NQ - saving Wenger money on the full match fee.

[Niall_Quinn]

NQ - saving Wenger money on the full match fee.

:doh:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Seeing players failing to be coached is really quite sobering.

[Niall_Quinn]

Seeing players failing to be coached is really quite sobering.

They don't learn by themselves if you coach them.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

"Time wasting is a problem in England and referees have not found the solution yet."

I certainly wasted my time today.

Some other words were said.

[Niall_Quinn]

Check this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-TENZG3Wrs

WHY DOESN'T WENGER GET A MENTION?

What's the ploy? Are we just meant to keep saying, week after week, the defence was poor As if it's an isolated thing?

WHY IS THE DEFENCE POOR?

Why has it been poor for so many seasons?

[Niall_Quinn]

I certainly wasted my time today.

Some other words were said.

That's his excuse today is it? I thought we were supposed to be doing the wrong kind of snow excuse today?

[Marc Overmars]

Progress.

[Master Splinter]

Alexis was astoundingly bad today. He was actively looking for herds of Southampton players to run into and was laser-focused in avoiding passing to a teammate.

The assist was a pass-back to Forster which Bif inadverdently diverted in.

[Marc Overmars]

Alexis has been shit the majority of the season. The guy has checked out and shouldn't be starting anymore, just get rid of him next month and move on from this sorry saga.

[Master Splinter]

It will be funny when Citeh buy Aubameyang instead and he's left with Spurs or China as options.

[Cripps]

Check this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-TENZG3Wrs

WHY DOESN'T WENGER GET A MENTION?

What's the ploy? Are we just meant to keep saying, week after week, the defence was poor As if it's an isolated thing?

WHY IS THE DEFENCE POOR?

Why has it been poor for so many seasons?

Why do you keep giving them views? That prick Is another cancer eminating from our club and another reason for us being a laughing stock.

Hopefully when Wenger pisses off that prick also goes out of business and ends up penniless.

[Letters]

He's also fat.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Fair play, his idea was good with real fans getting a voice. However, he went for click bait to follow the money. The result is, we see the same pricks saying the same thing all the time.

[Letters]

Fair play, his idea was good with real fans getting a voice. However, he went for click bait to follow the money. The result is, we see the same pricks saying the same thing all the time.

Glad we didn't do that, otherwise GW would be like that

:d

[Niall_Quinn]

Glad we didn't do that, otherwise GW would be like that

:d

Says he, driving around in his new Rolls Royce.

[Letters]

It's only second hand actually <_<
If you lot posted more... :angry:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Check this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-TENZG3Wrs

WHY DOESN'T WENGER GET A MENTION?

What's the ploy? Are we just meant to keep saying, week after week, the defence was poor As if it's an isolated thing?

WHY IS THE DEFENCE POOR?

Why has it been poor for so many seasons?

Whose house is that?

It has the interior design you’d see in a 70s porn flick

[Niall_Quinn]

Whose house is that?

It has the interior design you’d see in a 70s porn flick

Moh's :haha:

[Letters]

As is traditional, didn't watch it. To be fair, was out and about so not really able to.
Kept an eye on it, saw we'd gone 1-0 down early. I guess if you're going to go one down it's better to do so in the 3rd minute rather than the 83rd.
Better not to at all of course, but if you're going to.
I really expected (and I don't know why, triumph of hope over experience I guess) a response.
Was pleased when I saw we got an equaliser but we had more than enough time to turn it around and all we managed to do is scrape a point.
Not good enough.

[Cripps]

As is traditional, didn't watch it. To be fair, was out and about so not really able to.
Kept an eye on it, saw we'd gone 1-0 down early. I guess if you're going to go one down it's better to do so in the 3rd minute rather than the 83rd.
Better not to at all of course, but if you're going to.
I really expected (and I don't know why, triumph of hope over experience I guess) a response.
Was pleased when I saw we got an equaliser but we had more than enough time to turn it around and all we managed to do is scrape a point.
Not good enough.

What kind of analysis is that:lol:

The most trivial, irrelevant point ever :lol:

[Letters]

:lol:

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/544890072625971200/GlnY1lJS.jpeg

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uAq8kheq-4

What is going on with fans going to the shops today?

[Ralpheroo72]

Only one way this club is going under Kroenke, and that is steadily backwards. Awful club, nothing likeable about it, just taking the fans cash, and giving them an abject product in return. All this shit about challenging for titles is bullshit. They just say the same shit every year, draw the fans in, create some excitement, then bang! Same old same old. We are 17 points off top, and it’s only December!

[Letters]

I'm not sure points off the top is the best metric this year, no one can live with what City are doing this year. The Invincibles would be 8 points off the top at this stage. But you cannot challenge for the title with a defence like ours or an away record like ours. Agree with a lot of what you say about the club. Thus far the last decade has been one of stagnation rather than decline, lose Ozil and Sanchez and things could start to go properly wrong.

[Marc Overmars]

It doesn’t really matter how high or low the bar is set, you can bet your bottom dollar we won’t be anywhere near challenging regardless.

City have made it impossible this year but there have been several seasons where it should have been possible, if we had a decent coach that is.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Whatever is required to challenge, you can be assured we’ll be a couple of levels below it.

Nothing is going to change under this Manager or owner.

[GP]

We used to set the standard. Anyone remember that? It was an awfully long time ago.

[Ralpheroo72]

We are now at our level, trying to keep pace with likes of Southampton and Watford.

[Letters]

We are now at our level, trying to keep pace with likes of Southampton and Watford.

Behave. We're a point above Spurs #powershift, only a point off Liverpool and 3 off Chelsea.
Top 4 is going to be a scramble this year, I reckon it will be a Manchester top 2, after that it's 2 from 4. Very hard to call. For all our failings we're in the mix with the rest in that top 6.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Every single top six side has lost fewer games in 2017 than us

We’ve lost half our away games in 2017

The only reason we are relatively afloat is because united and Spurs aside we haven’t really played tough opposition at the Emirates this season. Yes putting us at Southampton and Watford’s level is ridiculous but if we take this year as a whole we are bottom of the pile of the top six teams

[Letters]

We’ve lost half our away games in 2017
:wacko:

Wow! :lol: Really?

That is pretty pathetic. I'm not sure how relevant calendar year stats are though, weren't we calendar year champions one year recently?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:wacko:

Wow! :lol: Really?

That is pretty pathetic. I'm not sure how relevant calendar year stats are though, weren't we calendar year champions one year recently?

Well we’ve lost half our away games this season as well if it makes you feel any better

[Letters]

Well we’ve lost half our away games this season as well if it makes you feel any better

:lol:



Not really :(

[Niall_Quinn]

Kroenke has no ambition beyond the cash.

Wenger can say whatever he wants but he's shown beyond any reasonable doubt he has no ambition beyond the cash.

These are the scumbags setting the tone for the club. And we expect greedy young egomaniac footballers to come in and fight for the club?

"We don't want his sort here", very true.

Murdoch, Abramovich, Kroenke, the Arabs, the scum at UEFA and FIFA - AND the central bankers and politicians, don't leave them out. Damn right we don't need their sort here, in our game, in our country.

The product (whatever product) is now 50 times more expensive and a tenth of the quality. Price inflation, entertainment deflation. You can't stand up at games. Don't shout the wrong thing, let's call diving "professional", let's pretend the utter gash we saw yesterday when the mancs sent out their two mercenary units is a premium product. Hype, hype and mountains of cash. That's what it's about now.

Of course we've lost our way.

[Cripps]

NQ's back :lol:

Had to work overdrive last week to hit his deadlines after 3 weeks of shirking and is now back to shirking:bow:

[Letters]

Unsurprisingly, I don't agree that Wenger is just interested in cash. If he is then he sure wastes a lot of it on high salaries for mediocre players.
I think he wants to win the biggest prizes but he doesn't have the ability to.

[Niall_Quinn]

Unsurprisingly, I don't agree that Wenger is just interested in cash. If he is then he sure wastes a lot of it on high salaries for mediocre players.
I think he wants to win the biggest prizes but he doesn't have the ability to.

Sure he does. That's why he says no to Mbappe and gets Sanogo instead. That's why he created the Top 4 Trophy. Keep that cash rolling in and he keeps his job, which is his life. He's had HOW MANY chances to mount a challenge? Guess he must have been unlucky every single time. Used to be we'd pretend to mount a challenge for at least part of the season. Now we flounder around in 4th, 5th, 6th and talk about "tough fights" for the Top 4 Trophy.

Not an ounce of ambition anywhere to be seen - beyond the personal and self interested ambition of Arsene Wenger.

[Letters]

He didn't create the top 4 trophy, UEFA did that by expanding the CL so that the top 4 qualify and making the prizes for doing so large enough that it becomes every top half of the table team's ambition.
Wenger didn't create that situation but he does benefit from it as it means failure to land the biggest prizes still carries big financial rewards and that keeps his bosses happy.
The failure to mount serious title challenges is not bad luck, he's just not able to properly compete.
In the current climate we will never be able to outspend City, Utd or Chelsea so I don't believe any manager will have us sweeping all before us on a consistent basis but we should be getting a lot closer in the league and our European record under Wenger is indefensible. Change, we need. But I think that change needs to happen at board level as well as management level ideally.

[Özim]

Sure he does. That's why he says no to Mbappe and gets Sanogo instead. That's why he created the Top 4 Trophy. Keep that cash rolling in and he keeps his job, which is his life. He's had HOW MANY chances to mount a challenge? Guess he must have been unlucky every single time. Used to be we'd pretend to mount a challenge for at least part of the season. Now we flounder around in 4th, 5th, 6th and talk about "tough fights" for the Top 4 Trophy.

Not an ounce of ambition anywhere to be seen - beyond the personal and self interested ambition of Arsene Wenger.

Precisely, 17 points behind the league leaders by December and he doesn't even seem that bothered to be honest, our season has been awful and he's doing his best to deflect away from that.

I think you can see how good top 4 is now, pretty much every team is stuttering losing/drawing games making top 4 very achievable, we've been awful this season and somehow we're still in the hunt, just shows how little an achievement it is other than financially.

[Letters]

Precisely, 17 points behind the league leaders by December and he doesn't even seem that bothered to be honest.
What is your basis for saying that?

[selassie]

What is your basis for saying that?

Wenger's recruitment and lack of planning tells us all we need to know about his ambition or lack of it. The title was conceded before a ball was even kicked because Wenger is doing the absolute bare minimum in attempting to improve us.

We are are in a fair position to be honest, this team is no better than 5th, maybe even 6th place, it's not surprising even though Wenger regularly comes out with his excuses telling the whole world how unlucky we are. It's just hollow platitudes, boring rhetoric.

As others have said, this season is just the same as every single season, boring boring.

[Niall_Quinn]

He didn't create the top 4 trophy, UEFA did that by expanding the CL so that the top 4 qualify and making the prizes for doing so large enough that it becomes every top half of the table team's ambition.
Wenger didn't create that situation but he does benefit from it as it means failure to land the biggest prizes still carries big financial rewards and that keeps his bosses happy.
The failure to mount serious title challenges is not bad luck, he's just not able to properly compete.
In the current climate we will never be able to outspend City, Utd or Chelsea so I don't believe any manager will have us sweeping all before us on a consistent basis but we should be getting a lot closer in the league and our European record under Wenger is indefensible. Change, we need. But I think that change needs to happen at board level as well as management level ideally.

UEFA created the top 4 qualifying spots. Wenger turned qualification into a trophy.

"The first trophy is to finish in the top four, and that's still possible. I believe finishing fourth is vital for us, so let's focus on that."

Of course, if you focus on winning the title then top 4 is a given, rather than a trophy in and of itself. Wenger couldn't be clearer about where his priorities lie. Okay, maybe he does have ambition beyond his own position. His ambition is to be second best, in fact 4th best will do. His ambition is to be a loser. Over the years he's trained the board, the players, the fans to accept and even glorify second best and second rate. That's why players like Sanogo can take to the pitch in our shirt. Second rate in terms of ambition for the club (except the finances where we are always world class), second rate in terms of the team, always short (literally these days), always "nearly" doing shit, always failing when it really matters. Even the FA Cup, sure, that's a trophy. Not THE trophy though. It's the also-rans consolation prize. The pinnacle for the second tier - at least when the genuine contenders don't hoover it up on their way to the main prize.

These are just the facts. We are world class when it comes to raking in the cash. Second rate at everything else. And Wenger is proud of it, he boasts about it. What a loser.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Hard to disagree.

[Marc Overmars]

Lets not forget the 0-0 win over Chelsea and all those shots we had against United. Positivity!

[Niall_Quinn]

Here we are celebrating 4th place in 2013.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/05/20/article-2327380-19E07B03000005DC-175_634x454.jpg

[Letters]

Wenger said: "For me, there are five 'trophies' – the first is to win the Premier League, the second is to win the Champions League, the third is to qualify for the Champions League, the fourth is to win the FA Cup and the fifth is to win the League Cup.
"I say that because if you want to attract the best players, they do not ask 'did you win the League Cup?', they ask you 'do you play in the Champions League?'."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/9633456/Arsenal-manager-Arsene-Wenger-says-qualifying-for-Champions-League-on-a-par-with-winning-a-trophy.html

[Letters]

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/guardiola-wengers-right-top-four-finish-is-like-a-trophy-man/rddvktec9s101txrhx8clfoi4

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger said: "For me, there are five 'trophies' – the first is to win the Premier League, the second is to win the Champions League, the third is to qualify for the Champions League, the fourth is to win the FA Cup and the fifth is to win the League Cup.
"I say that because if you want to attract the best players, they do not ask 'did you win the League Cup?', they ask you 'do you play in the Champions League?'."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/9633456/Arsenal-manager-Arsene-Wenger-says-qualifying-for-Champions-League-on-a-par-with-winning-a-trophy.html

Thank you for pointing out how insignificant the FA Cup has become.

[Niall_Quinn]

Here's Wigan winning the FA Cup

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/05/20/article-2327380-19BB147D000005DC-941_634x428.jpg

[Letters]

Thank you for pointing out how insignificant the FA Cup has become.

And thank you for shirting the goalposts of this discussion which was about Wenger's priorities.

And here's Utd in 2016

https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/sites/sbs.com.au.theworldgame/files/styles/full/public/united.jpg

Look how disappointed they are at such a tin pot trophy.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think even with a better manager we wouldn’t be competitive in the league this season. Dropping only two points from 16 games is unprecedented, as was the 30 league wins Chelsea accumulated last season.

We wouldn’t have lost 5 games already, 11 in 2017. We wouldn’t be starting a player against a side that wanted to join said side. We wouldn’t be so unprepared in games where two games in a row we concede in the opening ten minutes.

We wouldn’t look like a mid table side when we come up against the likes of city and Liverpool.

Who cares if Wenger is in it for the money or not, it’s an irrelevance....even if he was it wouldn’t explain the apalling tactical decisions or allowing the club’s two best players to leave for nothing. Plenty of managers in it for the cash who do more to earn such cash. Plus who does creating massive cash surplus benefit, the value of a club is not determined by the extraneous cash it has lying about because the value of that cash depreciates with time.

Wenger is scared of retiring because he’s done nothing with his life outside of football and paradoxically knows that he’s been dwarved by better managers a long time ago, but his pride and arrogance keeps him plugging away in futility.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/guardiola-wengers-right-top-four-finish-is-like-a-trophy-man/rddvktec9s101txrhx8clfoi4

Looks like I was wrong and Wenger is right.

4th place IS a trophy after all.

Pep says so. Therefore, must be true.

Wenger vindicated. I hope he signs a new 10 year contract.

Of course Pep also does shit like win titles and CLs, and he'd be nowhere near as feted if all he ever did was finish 4th. But these are minor points.

Onwards and upwards to 4th place :trophy:

[selassie]

UEFA created the top 4 qualifying spots. Wenger turned qualification into a trophy.

"The first trophy is to finish in the top four, and that's still possible. I believe finishing fourth is vital for us, so let's focus on that."

Of course, if you focus on winning the title then top 4 is a given, rather than a trophy in and of itself. Wenger couldn't be clearer about where his priorities lie. Okay, maybe he does have ambition beyond his own position. His ambition is to be second best, in fact 4th best will do. His ambition is to be a loser. Over the years he's trained the board, the players, the fans to accept and even glorify second best and second rate. That's why players like Sanogo can take to the pitch in our shirt. Second rate in terms of ambition for the club (except the finances where we are always world class), second rate in terms of the team, always short (literally these days), always "nearly" doing shit, always failing when it really matters. Even the FA Cup, sure, that's a trophy. Not THE trophy though. It's the also-rans consolation prize. The pinnacle for the second tier - at least when the genuine contenders don't hoover it up on their way to the main prize.

These are just the facts. We are world class when it comes to raking in the cash. Second rate at everything else. And Wenger is proud of it, he boasts about it. What a loser.

:gp:

PREACH!!!

[Niall_Quinn]

And thank you for shirting the goalposts of this discussion which was about Wenger's priorities.

And here's Utd in 2016

https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/sites/sbs.com.au.theworldgame/files/styles/full/public/united.jpg

Look how disappointed they are at such a tin pot trophy.

Just thought I'd take the opportunity to show you loading goalposts onto trucks for long distance transit. Because, one minute the Top 4 Trophy is the reason Wenger keeps his job. Next minute it's the FA Cup triumph, when the 4th place Super Trophy slips away. Always some reason to keep this tragic loser and waster nailed into his seat. And alway you, there, supporting him. Defending him at every step, interspersed with the odd post that says Wenger out, as if that's any sort of disguise at all.

Every time he's criticised - up you pop.

[Letters]

Looks like I was wrong and Wenger is right.

4th place IS a trophy after all.

Pep says so. Therefore, must be true.
Well, Pep says so. Therefore, Wenger saying it isn't quite as crazy as you suppose.
And I've also provided quotes to show that 4th place is NOT Wenger's first priority.
It may be the limit of his abilities but I don't think it's the limit of his ambitions. Of course he'd like to be winning titles, what possible reason would he not want that?

[Letters]

Every time he's criticised - up you pop.
Ah, that old lie. Lazy...

[Niall_Quinn]

Well, Pep says so. Therefore, Wenger saying it isn't quite as crazy as you suppose.
And I've also provided quotes to show that 4th place is NOT Wenger's first priority.
It may be the limit of his abilities but I don't think it's the limit of his ambitions. Of course he'd like to be winning titles, what possible reason would he not want that?

For the possible and ACTUAL reason that it would threaten his and Stan's cosy sustainability model, that our owners might have to dig in their own pockets, that the share price might run out of jet fuel, that the cosy situation as it stands might be jeopardised if Wenger was forced out from behind his excuses to actually compete with these top clubs whose managers all beat his arse on a regular basis. COMFORTABLE and very, very LUCRATIVE for the few. A never changing march to mediocrity in return for world leading costs for the rest. WHY would they want to change that? That's the question. Sustainability is a sick euphemism. It's the finely honed formula for extracting the maximum possible in return for the bare minimal input. Wenger is a genius all right, but not in the way any fan should be able to stomach.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ah, that old lie. Lazy...

And yet here you are, as always. And old lie with thousands of individual pieces of evidence that says it's the truth.

[Özim]

Well, Pep says so. Therefore, Wenger saying it isn't quite as crazy as you suppose.
And I've also provided quotes to show that 4th place is NOT Wenger's first priority.
It may be the limit of his abilities but I don't think it's the limit of his ambitions. Of course he'd like to be winning titles, what possible reason would he not want that?

Pep always makes his teams competitive in all fairness, when do you see him settling for 4th place or not trying to improve the team?

I think 4th place is his priority, he doesnt look particularly concerned that he's out of the title race fairly early on every year, if anything he doesn't look too unhappy right now, no real criticism coming out, no mention of needing changing despite being absolute miles behind, he's got a pretty positivie demeanour if anything because his precious 4th place trophy he cares about so much is still up for grabs luckily, this despite a shocking performance by his team for most of the season.

There's absolutley zero indication his priority is anythig but top 4, he doesn't buy the right or enough players, he makes no changes to things that fail regularly, he signs avergae nobodies like Xhaka, plays players out of position when it makes no sense, I just don't see how anyone can say he's in it to win when there's no evidence of that at all, he can say it 100% it doesn't mean it's true, actions speak louder than words and as weve seen over the years his words don't mean an awful lot.

10+ years of being also rans and the guy is still preaching about our quality and spirit, please enough now, you don't come 2dn/3rd/4th/5th for 10+ years and act like you're doing a great job and that it's an amazing achievement.

Remember his comments about qualifying for the CL for x amount of years, what he failed to point out is the numerous humiliating thrashings at the hand of decent teams, or his abysmal record in Europe overall. He's a public speaker a good one, he makes bad things sound good and people buy into it, just like they did at the AGM saying look at Wenger what a great guy he's the only one who comes out of this with any credit.

[Özim]

What is your basis for saying that?

His general demeanour on top of all the facts over the years, it's because 4th place is still up for grabs an that's frankly what he wants, the title and CL is for other clubs.

He has turned this whole club into a losers club, where the players, where many fans and hierarchy are very happy to be 2nd best and 2nd rate, they're proud of it in fact, as someone said a 0-0 with Chelsea and a defeat to Man U at home are pointed out as if they were a trophy on the mantlepiece, 1 point out of 2 games, 5 dropped, a 16.66667% return is somehow something to be proud of.

[Letters]

And yet here you are, as always. And old lie with thousands of individual pieces of evidence that says it's the truth.

I'm not sure you understand how messageboards work. If everyone agreed about everything then there would be nothing to discuss.
I could give a :goodpost: to something I agreed with but otherwise there would be nothing to add.

So, in general, I reply to things I disagree with to debate the issues. And because of the mood on here, that tends to be the excesses of negative opinion about Wenger which I don't agree with.
If there was "a Ty" on here who relentlessly believed that Wenger will soon be delivering us titles again then I would disagree with them too and be debating those issues, but there isn't.
(Arguably a shame, a wider range of opinions can only be a good thing on a messageboard)

So yes, I respond to things I think are incorrect whether that's about Wenger or global warming or whatever. That's what debate is.
I don't think he's just in it for the money. I do think he still wants to deliver the biggest prizes.
I don't think it's a complicated concept that someone can think those things and also believe Wenger should be sacked.

But I don't respond to every criticism and you know I don't.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Just thought I'd take the opportunity to show you loading goalposts onto trucks for long distance transit. Because, one minute the Top 4 Trophy is the reason Wenger keeps his job. Next minute it's the FA Cup triumph, when the 4th place Super Trophy slips away. Always some reason to keep this tragic loser and waster nailed into his seat. And alway you, there, supporting him. Defending him at every step, interspersed with the odd post that says Wenger out, as if that's any sort of disguise at all.

Every time he's criticised - up you pop.

If he didn't, there wouldn't be much to discuss.

The relative merits of qualifying for the CL and ewinning the FA Cup fluctuate with where we are as a Club. If you asked me 5 years ago, what was more important, I'd say the FA Cup in a heartbeat.

Why? Because like others, I though a trophy win was all it was going to take for us to push on to bigger things. Like others, perhaps including yourself, I was wrong.

As wrong as it was possible to be.

The comeback against Hull in that final has done nothing but inflict another 5 years (and counting) banality on this club.

Wenger is right where he positions the relative importance of the FA Cup and CL qualification - for any normal team that is. For us, it is of no conswquence, we won't push on no matter what while Wenger is manager and anyone else managing our club may do better, but they'll be severely handicapped by Kroenke.

[Letters]

His general demeanour on top of all the facts over the years, it's because 4th place is still up for grabs an that's frankly what he wants, the title and CL is for other clubs.
Again, not true. I've already produced a quote where he says the exact opposite. I gave the link above:

"For me, there are five 'trophies' – the first is to win the Premier League, the second is to win the Champions League, the third is to qualify for the Champions League, the fourth is to win the FA Cup and the fifth is to win the League Cup. I say that because if you want to attract the best players, they do not ask 'did you win the League Cup?', they ask you 'do you play in the Champions League?'."


He has turned this whole club into a losers club, where the players, where many fans and hierarchy are very happy to be 2nd best and 2nd rate, they're proud of it in fact, as someone said a 0-0 with Chelsea and a defeat to Man U at home are pointed out as if they were a trophy on the mantlepiece, 1 point out of 2 games, 5 dropped, a 16.66667% return is somehow something to be proud of.

That is a complete straw man argument. Who has said those two results are anything to be proud of? I do think failure is too easily accepted at the club BUT that is because the board define success in a different way to the fans.

[Cripps]

Don't think there's any doubt that Wenger doesn't prioritise trophies. He prioritises top 4 and sees that as a trophy in itself.

He can say that he wants to win real trophies and wants to win the league and european cup but it's baseless fallacy; his actions speak louder than words. I can say I want to leave my job every month for years on end, but if I continue to stay in the same job, do I really want to leave? He sees top 4 as the main objective and if we stumble upon a trophy in the process, then happy days.

He seems to be working on different metrics and his brain is conditioned to different metrics. His words about having to make sure 700 people are paid every month tells you everything you need to know.

That is something the board are guilty of allowing to fester and even catalysing, so they are not blameless, but whilst it seems we have moved onto a different stage in our lifecycle, Wenger is still conditioned in his old ways.

[Niall_Quinn]

If he didn't, there wouldn't be much to discuss.

The relative merits of qualifying for the CL and ewinning the FA Cup fluctuate with where we are as a Club. If you asked me 5 years ago, what was more important, I'd say the FA Cup in a heartbeat.

Why? Because like others, I though a trophy win was all it was going to take for us to push on to bigger things. Like others, perhaps including yourself, I was wrong.

As wrong as it was possible to be.

The comeback against Hull in that final has done nothing but inflict another 5 years (and counting) banality on this club.

Wenger is right where he positions the relative importance of the FA Cup and CL qualification - for any normal team that is. For us, it is of no conswquence, we won't push on no matter what while Wenger is manager and anyone else managing our club may do better, but they'll be severely handicapped by Kroenke.

For sure we were as wrong as it was possible to be. And that's the lesson to be learned, and 10 years is enough time for the lesson to be mastered. When Wenger speaks, he's lying. Either lying to us or lying to himself. Mostly lying to us though. And it's inexcusable. Which is why it's irritating to hear some fans still excusing him.

[Letters]

:blink: You quoted him above to back up a point and now you're saying everything he says is a lie?
And, again, it's possible to think that he should be sacked and also not think a lot of the things you think about him.

[Power n Glory]

For sure we were as wrong as it was possible to be. And that's the lesson to be learned, and 10 years is enough time for the lesson to be mastered. When Wenger speaks, he's lying. Either lying to us or lying to himself. Mostly lying to us though. And it's inexcusable. Which is why it's irritating to hear some fans still excusing him.

What Pep said about the Top 4 was his attempt to deflect attention away from the poor season he had. He knows it and his owners know it too otherwise he’d be fired if he came 3rd or 4th this season. Nothing has been left to chance this season. Man City are flying.

I don’t know if Wenger believes half the crap he says. In most cases I believe he’s just putting up a defence to deflect blame away from his record, but boy oh boy, how he’s managed to convince people of his bullshit is quite remarkable. From fans like Letters, to the Board room. It’s unreal. This is a man that tried to blame Ramsey's injury record on the hairspray Ramsey used!

I really can't understand it either.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Frankly it’s always occurred to me that Wenger aggrandises 4th place to gloss over his numerous failings

There’s no doubt that other clubs would like Wengers consistency in champions league qualification, but eventually they’d have to ask well why has this not propelled us onto anything better.

I don’t believe Wenger actively seeks not to do any better than top four, because that would suggest he has purposely put the kybosh on seasons where it was possible for us to win things. What I think is far more likely is that at times he’s chosen to be more parsimonious than necessary because there would be more expectation to succeed and more questions asked.
But on top of that you have to factor in Wenger is one of the worlds most indecisive individuals but along with that is also a micro manager which is a pretty terrible combination.

Happy with 4th? Perhaps overstated. Not willing to do what it takes in the transfer market to get us to win the title well yeah but who would trust him in the transfer market anyway?.

[Cripps]

What Pep said about the Top 4 was his attempt to deflect attention away from the poor season he had. He knows it and his owners know it too otherwise he’d be fired if he came 3rd or 4th this season. Nothing has been left to chance this season. Man City are flying.

I don’t know if Wenger believes half the crap he says. In most cases I believe he’s just putting up a defence to deflect blame away from his record, but boy oh boy, how he’s managed to convince people of his bullshit is quite remarkable. From fans like Letters, to the Board room. It’s unreal. This is a man that tried to blame Ramsey's injury record on the hairspray Ramsey used!

I really can't understand it either.

I forgot about that:lol:

Up there with the weather excuse :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

I don’t think he believes he can challenge for the main prizes anymore, not at this stage of his career and life where the environment is so much more competitive.

However he finds himself in a unique position where he doesn’t need to challenge yet finds himself absolutely secure in his job. That is down to the owner first and foremost but also a fanbase that just isn’t bothered enough collectively to do something about it, probably due to sentiment.

It’s the perfect place for him to see out his career in relative comfort despite overseeing and accepting a complete drop off in standards. A vanity project, completely selfish and serves no purpose other than to prolong his time in football.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What Pep said about the Top 4 was his attempt to deflect attention away from the poor season he had. He knows it and his owners know it too otherwise he’d be fired if he came 3rd or 4th this season. Nothing has been left to chance this season. Man City are flying.

I don’t know if Wenger believes half the crap he says. In most cases I believe he’s just putting up a defence to deflect blame away from his record, but boy oh boy, how he’s managed to convince people of his bullshit is quite remarkable. From fans like Letters, to the Board room. It’s unreal. This is a man that tried to blame Ramsey's injury record on the hairspray Ramsey used!

I really can't understand it either.

Would you not argue though that this is what Wenger does on a constant basis?. He knows the expectation with the board is not challenging for the title so better to try and ameliorate for his failings with Bullshit. Unless he’s of diminished capacity it’s easy to suggest a lot of what he says is ridiculous spin with the most recent example being the whole “ideal situation” in regards to Sanchez and Ozil.
I think as someone desperately trying to square the ridiculous things both he and the club end up doing through negligence and mismanagement, he’s likely to come out with all kinds of nonsense. The sad and appalling thing is we know that Pep can roll out the BS for a season, Wenger can get away with it as long as he wants

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don’t think he believes he can challenge for the main prizes anymore, not at this stage of his career and life where the environment is so much more competitive.

However he finds himself in a unique position where he doesn’t need to challenge yet finds himself absolutely secure in his job. That is down to the owner first and foremost but also a fanbase that just isn’t bothered enough collectively to do something about it, probably due to sentiment.

It’s the perfect place for him to see out his career in relative comfort despite overseeing and accepting a complete drop off in standards. A vanity project, completely selfish and serves no purpose other than to prolong his time in football.

Pretty much.

[Letters]

I don’t think he believes he can challenge for the main prizes anymore, not at this stage of his career and life where the environment is so much more competitive.

However he finds himself in a unique position where he doesn’t need to challenge yet finds himself absolutely secure in his job. That is down to the owner first and foremost but also a fanbase that just isn’t bothered enough collectively to do something about it, probably due to sentiment.

It’s the perfect place for him to see out his career in relative comfort despite overseeing and accepting a complete drop off in standards. A vanity project, completely selfish and serves no purpose other than to prolong his time in football.

Interesting. I've always thought that he does believe he can and is simple deluded. But what you've suggested is certainly plausible.

[Niall_Quinn]

:blink: You quoted him above to back up a point and now you're saying everything he says is a lie?
And, again, it's possible to think that he should be sacked and also not think a lot of the things you think about him.

Yes. The Top 4 Trophy thing is a blatant lie. Top 4 is not a trophy. Top 4 is money for competing for a trophy we never compete for. So yes. When he tries to paint top 4 as a trophy he's telling a giant sized lie because he knows bloody well he hasn't done nearly enough to get within a mile of that particular trophy. It's like saying not getting relegated is a trophy because you then get to compete for the PL title next season. All about the money, none of it has anything to do with football.

[Niall_Quinn]

What Pep said about the Top 4 was his attempt to deflect attention away from the poor season he had. He knows it and his owners know it too otherwise he’d be fired if he came 3rd or 4th this season. Nothing has been left to chance this season. Man City are flying.

I don’t know if Wenger believes half the crap he says. In most cases I believe he’s just putting up a defence to deflect blame away from his record, but boy oh boy, how he’s managed to convince people of his bullshit is quite remarkable. From fans like Letters, to the Board room. It’s unreal. This is a man that tried to blame Ramsey's injury record on the hairspray Ramsey used!

I really can't understand it either.

And what Letters quoted from Pep was Letters' attempt to deflect as well. Like he did earlier in this match thread when he dismissed another lousy season from Wenger with the excuse that nobody is catching the gypos anyway. Always an excuse in there somewhere. Losing is baked in.

It's a weird sporting form of Stockholm Syndrome.

[Niall_Quinn]

Interesting. I've always thought that he does believe he can and is simple deluded. But what you've suggested is certainly plausible.

???

It has been suggested Wenger is a second rate loser with zero ambition beyond feathering his own nest - ON MANY OCCASIONS.

You're only getting it now?

[Niall_Quinn]

I don’t think he believes he can challenge for the main prizes anymore, not at this stage of his career and life where the environment is so much more competitive.

However he finds himself in a unique position where he doesn’t need to challenge yet finds himself absolutely secure in his job. That is down to the owner first and foremost but also a fanbase that just isn’t bothered enough collectively to do something about it, probably due to sentiment.

It’s the perfect place for him to see out his career in relative comfort despite overseeing and accepting a complete drop off in standards. A vanity project, completely selfish and serves no purpose other than to prolong his time in football.

Yeah. Good post.

Between them, they've stitched up a comfy little gig at the world record expense of the fans. The last lot buggered off with half a billion in their pockets, only one of them ever bothering to have coughed a bit back, and this next lot are perfect for Wenger. Zero ambition beyond building a lucrative asset on the back of more than a century of tradition and a captive audience. Match made in hell.

[Marc Overmars]

Interesting. I've always thought that he does believe he can and is simple deluded. But what you've suggested is certainly plausible.

If he did believe he could compete then I reckon we’d see a very different Wenger.

Instead we’ve wasted money and time on ordinary players, heard lame excuses, had expectations downplayed, and seen anyone who’s anyone pack up and leave because the club is at a dead end. Have you ever heard of a top club having its 2 prized assets walk on a free at the same time? It’s laughable.

Absolutely nothing that’s gone on at this club over the past decade suggests to me there’s any belief we can be something more than a top 4 outfit.

[Niall_Quinn]

Frankly it’s always occurred to me that Wenger aggrandises 4th place to gloss over his numerous failings

There’s no doubt that other clubs would like Wengers consistency in champions league qualification, but eventually they’d have to ask well why has this not propelled us onto anything better.

I don’t believe Wenger actively seeks not to do any better than top four, because that would suggest he has purposely put the kybosh on seasons where it was possible for us to win things. What I think is far more likely is that at times he’s chosen to be more parsimonious than necessary because there would be more expectation to succeed and more questions asked.
But on top of that you have to factor in Wenger is one of the worlds most indecisive individuals but along with that is also a micro manager which is a pretty terrible combination.

Happy with 4th? Perhaps overstated. Not willing to do what it takes in the transfer market to get us to win the title well yeah but who would trust him in the transfer market anyway?.

He's the guy who sets out on a 100 mile journey with EXACTLY 100 miles of fuel in the car, provided he travels at optimum speed all the way. There's no allowance for hitting jams and no capacity to accelerate when the road is clear. Chug, chug, chug, 56mph all the way. There's one petrol station along the way (in January) - if he's fucked the journey to that point he'll buy one extra litre of fuel, just the one. If he's doing okay on consumption he'll sail right past, ignoring the sign that warns of the same roadblock ahead that has been there for 10 years. He's totally fucking incompetent. Happens every year and every year he changes the seat covers and tells us it's the best car he ever had.

[Niall_Quinn]

If he did believe he could compete then I reckon we’d see a very different Wenger.

Instead we’ve wasted money and time on ordinary players, heard lame excuses, had expectations downplayed, and seen anyone who’s anyone pack up and leave because the club is at a dead end. Have you ever heard of a top club having its 2 prized assets walk on a free at the same time? It’s laughable.

Absolutely nothing that’s gone on at this club over the past decade suggests to me there’s any belief we can be something more than a top 4 outfit.

Bit unfair.

I think we're top 5 now.

[Letters]

And what Letters quoted from Pep was Letters' attempt to deflect as well.
What do you mean 'deflect'? Deflect from what?
Do you even understand how debate works? You say something I disagree with so I respond saying why I don't agree and, where relevant, backing up my position with evidence.
You then respond and so on. That is all that is happening.

You stated that Wenger's primary goal is top 4, you backed that up with a quote (which you provided no source for by the way).
I I found an actual source where Wenger said that 4th was his 3rd priority, below the two big competitions and (interestingly) above the FA Cup. And his stated reason for that was that players are more interested in whether we're playing in the CL than whether we won a domestic trophy. The Guardiola quote was an addition to demonstrate that Wenger is not uniquely of the opinion that top 4 is an important benchmark.


Like he did earlier in this match thread when he dismissed another lousy season from Wenger with the excuse that nobody is catching the gypos anyway.
I see you ignored my first post in this thread, or one of the first, where I said that even though City are going mental and no-one is going to catch them, we're not going to be winning titles with this defence or away record.
So no, not dismissing it at all.

Can you really not wrap your head around the idea that someone can think someone should be sacked but not think every criticism of that person is justified? I honestly don't think it's a difficult concept.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He's the guy who sets out on a 100 mile journey with EXACTLY 100 miles of fuel in the car, provided he travels at optimum speed all the way. There's no allowance for hitting jams and no capacity to accelerate when the road is clear. Chug, chug, chug, 56mph all the way. There's one petrol station along the way (in January) - if he's fucked the journey to that point he'll buy one extra litre of fuel, just the one. If he's doing okay on consumption he'll sail right past, ignoring the sign that warns of the same roadblock ahead that has been there for 10 years. He's totally fucking incompetent. Happens every year and every year he changes the seat covers and tells us it's the best car he ever had.

Yes. I think to be honest MO’s assertion that he knows he can’t win the title is on the nose

It’s not so much not wanting to win, but it’s a case of not wanting to change the things that lends itself to winning. And I think that’s mainly because he can’t stand not being in control of every single detail. Which I think is partly to do with his personality and partly because he doesn’t want to admit to himself that he’s wasted his life. 21 years living in London, every moment dedicated to football, does pundit work instead of taking holidays doesn’t have any interests outside of the game....and what’s he got to show for it, a crumbling legacy.
He’s long been a prisoner of his own stubborn intransigence, what’s changed in the last five-ten years is that he’s made us prisoners of it as well. Whilst some still have signs of Stockholm syndrome, most are desperate to break free of it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If he did believe he could compete then I reckon we’d see a very different Wenger.

Instead we’ve wasted money and time on ordinary players, heard lame excuses, had expectations downplayed, and seen anyone who’s anyone pack up and leave because the club is at a dead end. Have you ever heard of a top club having its 2 prized assets walk on a free at the same time? It’s laughable.

Absolutely nothing that’s gone on at this club over the past decade suggests to me there’s any belief we can be something more than a top 4 outfit.

I think when he signed on in 2014 and he signed Alexis I think that was a glimmer that he could spend more and go for things, even in that season he left us woefully exposed in terms of defenders. I think that and the subsequent season have shown to him that he can’t hack the modern game.
I genuinely think he signed on in 2014 because he believed he could take us forward, in 2017 it’s clearly a case of frightened to leave.

[selassie]

He's the guy who sets out on a 100 mile journey with EXACTLY 100 miles of fuel in the car, provided he travels at optimum speed all the way. There's no allowance for hitting jams and no capacity to accelerate when the road is clear. Chug, chug, chug, 56mph all the way. There's one petrol station along the way (in January) - if he's fucked the journey to that point he'll buy one extra litre of fuel, just the one. If he's doing okay on consumption he'll sail right past, ignoring the sign that warns of the same roadblock ahead that has been there for 10 years. He's totally fucking incompetent. Happens every year and every year he changes the seat covers and tells us it's the best car he ever had.

:haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

What do you mean 'deflect'? Deflect from what?
Do you even understand how debate works? You say something I disagree with so I respond saying why I don't agree and, where relevant, backing up my position with evidence.
You then respond and so on. That is all that is happening.

You stated that Wenger's primary goal is top 4, you backed that up with a quote (which you provided no source for by the way).
I I found an actual source where Wenger said that 4th was his 3rd priority, below the two big competitions and (interestingly) above the FA Cup. And his stated reason for that was that players are more interested in whether we're playing in the CL than whether we won a domestic trophy. The Guardiola quote was an addition to demonstrate that Wenger is not uniquely of the opinion that top 4 is an important benchmark.


I see you ignored my first post in this thread, or one of the first, where I said that even though City are going mental and no-one is going to catch them, we're not going to be winning titles with this defence or away record.
So no, not dismissing it at all.

Can you really not wrap your head around the idea that someone can think someone should be sacked but not think every criticism of that person is justified? I honestly don't think it's a difficult concept.

I know very well how debate works.

We argue in turn until one argument prevails and the other is defeated, based preferably on facts and evidence.

But that's not how you "debate". Sure, you do the back and forwards thing. For sure, your argument is defeated. Bu the difference is, you then go back to the start as if the debate never occurred.

And 10 years later...

[Letters]

For sure, your argument is defeated.
Yep. You said that Wenger's top priority is to finish in the top 4 and to back that up you quoted Wenger without providing the source for that quote, so maybe you made it up, who knows?
I responded by finding an actual quote where Wenger clearly put finishing top 4 below winning the league (which is obvious) and the CL and above the FA Cup.
But yes, it's definitely my argument which has been defeated.
You win again.
Clever you.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yep. You said that Wenger's top priority is to finish in the top 4 and to back that up you quoted Wenger without providing the source for that quote, so maybe you made it up, who knows?
I responded by finding an actual quote where Wenger clearly put finishing top 4 below winning the league (which is obvious) and the CL and above the FA Cup.
But yes, it's definitely my argument which has been defeated.
You win again.
Clever you.

Perhaps you could copy and paste the quote into Google? Then you'd know, wouldn't you? It's the infamous quote that the world of football seized on to rip the piss out of the tired old fool.

And your quote is meaningless in the real world. Just words tumbling out of the old goat's lying gob, as usual. So what if he says the title is more important than his Top 4 Trophy? What can we judge by his actions? A stream of Top 4 Trophies and not a sniff of a title. And as for the CL, don't make me laugh. All your quote proves is that you ignore what Wenger does, so busy are you hanging on what he says. I called him a liar and you proved it. Thanks.

The desperation to defend the fool in the face of a decade of sorry evidence, it's the reason why this has-been has lasted so long and somehow lingers on even now. Fans hanging on the ancient past and arguing tooth and nail with those who point to the present.

[Cripps]

He's the guy who sets out on a 100 mile journey with EXACTLY 100 miles of fuel in the car, provided he travels at optimum speed all the way. There's no allowance for hitting jams and no capacity to accelerate when the road is clear. Chug, chug, chug, 56mph all the way. There's one petrol station along the way (in January) - if he's fucked the journey to that point he'll buy one extra litre of fuel, just the one. If he's doing okay on consumption he'll sail right past, ignoring the sign that warns of the same roadblock ahead that has been there for 10 years. He's totally fucking incompetent. Happens every year and every year he changes the seat covers and tells us it's the best car he ever had.

:haha:

NQ :bow:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Perhaps you could copy and paste the quote into Google? Then you'd know, wouldn't you? It's the infamous quote that the world of football seized on to rip the piss out of the tired old fool.

And your quote is meaningless in the real world. Just words tumbling out of the old goat's lying gob, as usual. So what if he says the title is more important than his Top 4 Trophy? What can we judge by his actions? A stream of Top 4 Trophies and not a sniff of a title. And as for the CL, don't make me laugh. All your quote proves is that you ignore what Wenger does, so busy are you hanging on what he says. I called him a liar and you proved it. Thanks.

The desperation to defend the fool in the face of a decade of sorry evidence, it's the reason why this has-been has lasted so long and somehow lingers on even now. Fans hanging on the ancient past and arguing tooth and nail with those who point to the present.

If Letters thinks he should be sacked, which he has claimed in his own words

Does it really matter which conclusions either of you come to in any real sense.

On the other hand I do think the “why do you watch it if you hate it” argument he makes is rather pointless

You may think your son is shit at the guitar and is in fact regressing, he may have a shit music tutor and the school he belongs to refuses to sack said music teacher who is old and living on past glories. But you will still listen to your sons guitar recitals even though you suspect he’s gonna hit loads of bum notes.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

On the other hand because of doing other stuff and not really enjoying watching us play the last premier league match of Arsenal’s that I watched all the way through was the away game at Watford.

[Letters]

Perhaps you could copy and paste the quote into Google? Then you'd know, wouldn't you? It's the infamous quote that the world of football seized on to rip the piss out of the tired old fool.

OK. I did. The full quote I found is this:

"The first trophy is to finish in the top four. And that's still possible. I believe finishing fourth is vital for us, so let's focus on that."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/feb/19/arsene-wenger-arsenal-fourth-place

Which is what you said. So fine. But note the date, Feb 2012. It was just after we'd gone out of the FA Cup, we were in the middle of a two leg tie in the CL and had been soundly beaten 4-0 in the first leg and we were 4th in the PL, miles off the top. And we had Chelsea, Newcastle (!) and Liverpool hot on our heels.

https://www.11v11.com/league-tables/premier-league/19-february-2012/

No actual trophies were possible at that stage of that season. So in that context the prioritisation of finishing top 4 made sense. Calling it a trophy, OK, that's a little silly. But you used that quote to make it sound like finishing top 4 is Wenger's absolute top priority. The quote I found is clearer about how he sees priorities overall. You used a quote out of context to "prove" your point, my quote shows your stance to be nonsense so you dismiss it as "meaningless". Easy to prove yourself right if you ignore or dismiss anything which shows you to be wrong.


The desperation to defend the fool in the face of a decade of sorry evidence, it's the reason why this has-been has lasted so long and somehow lingers on even now. Fans hanging on the ancient past and arguing tooth and nail with those who point to the present.
It is not "defending" Wenger to say that top 4 is not his absolute top priority. It's just correcting an obviously incorrect assertion. I'd correct you if you said he's short. He isn't. That isn't defending him. It isn't laudable that he says his top priority is winning the league, that should be his priority. A more sensible discussion is how he is failing to make the best use of our considerable resources to achieve that.

[Marc Overmars]

I think when he signed on in 2014 and he signed Alexis I think that was a glimmer that he could spend more and go for things, even in that season he left us woefully exposed in terms of defenders. I think that and the subsequent season have shown to him that he can’t hack the modern game.
I genuinely think he signed on in 2014 because he believed he could take us forward, in 2017 it’s clearly a case of frightened to leave.

Yes there was a window of opportunity after the 2014 cup win. The trophy drought was over, we had some new money and our rivals were in a state of flux. That was when our fabled "long term" approach was meant to come good, I certainly didn't expect to sweep all before us but to not even remotely challenge is really galling. Wenger had it easy for so long and conned us all during the process, now he's completely exposed as a bang average coach. I don't think history should be rewritten but it certainly makes me look back and think a bit differently and less dewy-eyed on his time with us.

[Letters]

On the other hand I do think the “why do you watch it if you hate it” argument he makes is rather pointless
That wasn't an argument. I wasn't arguing anything, I was just asking.
And I'm not convinced your analogy stands up, your son may be crap at guitar but you'd still feel a sense of parental pride in him having a go.
You wouldn't watch him play for 90 minutes full of rage, call him and his teacher a **** every 5 minutes and afterwards even if he actually played quite well for once kick the cat and whine about how shit he is and that his teacher should be sacked.

[Power n Glory]

Perhaps you could copy and paste the quote into Google? Then you'd know, wouldn't you? It's the infamous quote that the world of football seized on to rip the piss out of the tired old fool.

And your quote is meaningless in the real world. Just words tumbling out of the old goat's lying gob, as usual. So what if he says the title is more important than his Top 4 Trophy? What can we judge by his actions? A stream of Top 4 Trophies and not a sniff of a title. And as for the CL, don't make me laugh. All your quote proves is that you ignore what Wenger does, so busy are you hanging on what he says. I called him a liar and you proved it. Thanks.

The desperation to defend the fool in the face of a decade of sorry evidence, it's the reason why this has-been has lasted so long and somehow lingers on even now. Fans hanging on the ancient past and arguing tooth and nail with those who point to the present.

:gp:

Wenger is a liar and I have no idea why people continue to defend him. He has no integrity and aligned himself with the agenda of the Board years ago. It’s a con. It’s obvious who he’s delivering results for.

[Letters]

:gp:

Wenger is a liar and I have no idea why people continue to defend him. He has no integrity and aligned himself with the agenda of the Board years ago. It’s a con. It’s obvious who he’s delivering results for.

Ok. Now try reading my post. I suspect you won't but it might help you actually understand my stance.
It really would help if people tried replying to what I actually post, not what they imagine I have...

[Niall_Quinn]

If Letters thinks he should be sacked, which he has claimed in his own words

Does it really matter which conclusions either of you come to in any real sense.

On the other hand I do think the “why do you watch it if you hate it” argument he makes is rather pointless

You may think your son is shit at the guitar and is in fact regressing, he may have a shit music tutor and the school he belongs to refuses to sack said music teacher who is old and living on past glories. But you will still listen to your sons guitar recitals even though you suspect he’s gonna hit loads of bum notes.

He doesn't even play the guitar :doh:

(Sorry, trying my hand at a Letters technique)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:gp:

Wenger is a liar and I have no idea why people continue to defend him. He has no integrity and aligned himself with the agenda of the Board years ago. It’s a con. It’s obvious who he’s delivering results for.

Not really sure this was in any doubt (well for most of us anyway)

If the people who are fans want you to win the title, but the people who run the club and pay your salary don’t care....whose your daddy.

I think he’d like to win the title, but when he’s under no pressure to do so and would only arguably invite pressure on himself by spending where’s the motivation?

We have to whether we like it or not. Make the assumption that the next guy will be Gazidis’ man, and therefore it will be interesting to see what the new guys minimum objectives are. My personal belief would be that a new guy should be given a three year contract that would be terminated within that period if there are a lot of unacceptable results in a short period and the contract won’t be extended if minimum objectives which would include signs of gradual improvement and a sustained title challenge in that time

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He doesn't even play the guitar :doh:

(Sorry, trying my hand at a Letters technique)

Would your son be interested in playing in a jazz band?

If so I have a wonderful tutor to recommend. He’s a bullying psychopath but on the plus side he’s not a nonce

[Niall_Quinn]

OK. I did. The full quote I found is this:

"The first trophy is to finish in the top four. And that's still possible. I believe finishing fourth is vital for us, so let's focus on that."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/feb/19/arsene-wenger-arsenal-fourth-place

Which is what you said. So fine. But note the date, Feb 2012. It was just after we'd gone out of the FA Cup, we were in the middle of a two leg tie in the CL and had been soundly beaten 4-0 in the first leg and we were 4th in the PL, miles off the top. And we had Chelsea, Newcastle (!) and Liverpool hot on our heels.

https://www.11v11.com/league-tables/premier-league/19-february-2012/

No actual trophies were possible at that stage of that season. So in that context the prioritisation of finishing top 4 made sense. Calling it a trophy, OK, that's a little silly. But you used that quote to make it sound like finishing top 4 is Wenger's absolute top priority. The quote I found is clearer about how he sees priorities overall. You used a quote out of context to "prove" your point, my quote shows your stance to be nonsense so you dismiss it as "meaningless". Easy to prove yourself right if you ignore or dismiss anything which shows you to be wrong.


It is not "defending" Wenger to say that top 4 is not his absolute top priority. It's just correcting an obviously incorrect assertion. I'd correct you if you said he's short. He isn't. That isn't defending him. It isn't laudable that he says his top priority is winning the league, that should be his priority. A more sensible discussion is how he is failing to make the best use of our considerable resources to achieve that.

That's why I posted up the image of us celebrating the Top 4 Trophy win - so there could be no doubt about contexts and the actual ambitions of this club.

Wenger has transformed us from a big club with big ambitions into a big club with small time ambitions. His goal is patently obvious and it's quite ridiculous to argue against the evidence. He boasts furiously about his Top 4 triumphs and hasn't taken any of the steps required to press on and achieve his so-called ambition to win titles and CLs. All words, almost no action. He took a couple of faltering steps away from his bullshit when he signed Ozil and Alexis. Of course look at how he handled that - sheer incompetence. Other than that, hot air. Anyone who believes him is as gullible as hell. Fool me once, fool me twice, fool me for fucking 10 years - get a grip! The man's a liar and his actions prove he has no intention of ever competing for the big prizes again. As such, he's unfit to be the manager of a club like Arsenal and, sure as hell, he wouldn't last a minute managing any other top club.

But let's carry on making excuses for him and parsing the finer details of his bullshit to provide him with favourable contexts. It's never Wenger, it's always the malcontent fans. And when we've defended him to the hilt we can casually chuck in, yeah he should be sacked, and we can get splinters up our arseholes from sitting so long on the fence.

[Niall_Quinn]

Would your son be interested in playing in a jazz band?

If so I have a wonderful tutor to recommend. He’s a bullying psychopath but on the plus side he’s not a nonce

The not a nonce thing is huge. I didn't know that was an option. Do you have a number?

[Power n Glory]

Not really sure this was in any doubt (well for most of us anyway)

If the people who are fans want you to win the title, but the people who run the club and pay your salary don’t care....whose your daddy.

I think he’d like to win the title, but when he’s under no pressure to do so and would only arguably invite pressure on himself by spending where’s the motivation?

We have to whether we like it or not. Make the assumption that the next guy will be Gazidis’ man, and therefore it will be interesting to see what the new guys minimum objectives are. My personal belief would be that a new guy should be given a three year contract that would be terminated within that period if there are a lot of unacceptable results in a short period and the contract won’t be extended if minimum objectives which would include signs of gradual improvement and a sustained title challenge in that time

If it's not in any doubt, I have no idea why there is an argument over this Top 4 trophy rubbish. If it's clear he cares more about delivering results for Stan Kroenke over the fans, why the fuck would anyone want to try and defend him? He's worse than Kroenke. He has betrayed the club, fans, his players and a disgrace to football management.

[Niall_Quinn]

That wasn't an argument. I wasn't arguing anything, I was just asking.
And I'm not convinced your analogy stands up, your son may be crap at guitar but you'd still feel a sense of parental pride in him having a go.
You wouldn't watch him play for 90 minutes full of rage, call him and his teacher a **** every 5 minutes and afterwards even if he actually played quite well for once kick the cat and whine about how shit he is and that his teacher should be sacked.

So that's what you are up to is it? Giving Wenger some credit for "having a go"?

Well he can go and manage Sunday league, can't he?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The not a nonce thing is huge. I didn't know that was an option. Do you have a number?

Just a name Terence Fletcher

But also can I ask, when you sent your reply do you think you were Rushing or Dragging?

[Niall_Quinn]

Ok. Now try reading my post. I suspect you won't but it might help you actually understand my stance.
It really would help if people tried replying to what I actually post, not what they imagine I have...

Perhaps they can't believe their eyes when you post stuff? Like you trying to argue that Wenger's goal is not scrabbling into the top 4 and is instead titles and CLs. Can you see why people dismiss that instantly and assume you meant something completely different? It's kindness - they are giving you the benefit of the doubt.

[Niall_Quinn]

Just a name Terence Fletcher

But also can I ask, when you sent your reply do you think you were Rushing or Dragging?

"Granit, now think... rushing... or dragging?" SLAP!

[Özim]

Yes there was a window of opportunity after the 2014 cup win. The trophy drought was over, we had some new money and our rivals were in a state of flux. That was when our fabled "long term" approach was meant to come good, I certainly didn't expect to sweep all before us but to not even remotely challenge is really galling. Wenger had it easy for so long and conned us all during the process, now he's completely exposed as a bang average coach. I don't think history should be rewritten but it certainly makes me look back and think a bit differently and less dewy-eyed on his time with us.

Great post, totally agree with this.

[Özim]

Perhaps you could copy and paste the quote into Google? Then you'd know, wouldn't you? It's the infamous quote that the world of football seized on to rip the piss out of the tired old fool.

And your quote is meaningless in the real world. Just words tumbling out of the old goat's lying gob, as usual. So what if he says the title is more important than his Top 4 Trophy? What can we judge by his actions? A stream of Top 4 Trophies and not a sniff of a title. And as for the CL, don't make me laugh. All your quote proves is that you ignore what Wenger does, so busy are you hanging on what he says. I called him a liar and you proved it. Thanks.

The desperation to defend the fool in the face of a decade of sorry evidence, it's the reason why this has-been has lasted so long and somehow lingers on even now. Fans hanging on the ancient past and arguing tooth and nail with those who point to the present.

Words are cheap so re-hasing quotes of him saying the league and CL are top priorities is pointless, there's no evidence to back up these words at all, they're just words, anyone can say that.

Those should be our priorities of course, but what's clear is they're not, top 4 is, that's really all we're concerned about, yes of course we'd love to win the title and the CL and I'm sure everyone would love to win the lottery too, even those that don't buy a ticket, but they won't because they aren't even buying a ticket.

All I see is a guy who is very happy with getting 4th place, money keeps rolling in, he gets a pat on the back by the hierarchy, gives himself a nice pay rise and marks himself an A* for his performance for the season, a job well done.

[Özim]

That's why I posted up the image of us celebrating the Top 4 Trophy win - so there could be no doubt about contexts and the actual ambitions of this club.

Wenger has transformed us from a big club with big ambitions into a big club with small time ambitions. His goal is patently obvious and it's quite ridiculous to argue against the evidence. He boasts furiously about his Top 4 triumphs and hasn't taken any of the steps required to press on and achieve his so-called ambition to win titles and CLs. All words, almost no action. He took a couple of faltering steps away from his bullshit when he signed Ozil and Alexis. Of course look at how he handled that - sheer incompetence. Other than that, hot air. Anyone who believes him is as gullible as hell. Fool me once, fool me twice, fool me for fucking 10 years - get a grip! The man's a liar and his actions prove he has no intention of ever competing for the big prizes again. As such, he's unfit to be the manager of a club like Arsenal and, sure as hell, he wouldn't last a minute managing any other top club.

But let's carry on making excuses for him and parsing the finer details of his bullshit to provide him with favourable contexts. It's never Wenger, it's always the malcontent fans. And when we've defended him to the hilt we can casually chuck in, yeah he should be sacked, and we can get splinters up our arseholes from sitting so long on the fence.

Celebrating the "top 4 trophy" highlighted what a small time club we've become under Wenger, celebrating 4th as if we'd won the title, how embarrassing, but hey we qualified for the CL 20 million times (even if we did get utter hammered at the first sign of a decent team pretty often, but that was just to bad unfortunate, in reality the game should have ended after the 1st half of the Bayern game last season, we won that half, the 10-2 was just down to bad luck).

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

"Granit, now think... rushing... or dragging?" SLAP!

Why do you suppose I threw that chair at you Aaron?

I first saw Whiplash start of the year and thought I want this guy as coach

[rodders]

Nothing will change until Kroenke goes which probably means never.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If it's not in any doubt, I have no idea why there is an argument over this Top 4 trophy rubbish. If it's clear he cares more about delivering results for Stan Kroenke over the fans, why the fuck would anyone want to try and defend him? He's worse than Kroenke. He has betrayed the club, fans, his players and a disgrace to football management.

Any manager really if you break it down is delivering results for their employers

Plus I suspect you don’t week after week listen to every managers press conference, I’m not saying you should (I don’t listen to Wengers half the time and this goes back long before he started pissing me off). It’s Bullshit and spin, as you and I have and most on here have accepted for a long time he’s been doing a third rate job for some considerable time, the more crap the results, the more inexplicable the decisions the more pungent the manure to defend it.

The debate today is whether Wenger is happy with how things have been going. And I would say there’s no definitive yes or no answer to that. Yes he’s happy in that he’s got his own little fiefdom in which he is free from interference and can embark on whatever vanity project he likes, who wouldn’t be happy ostensibly with that.
Is he happy that he hasn’t and seems incapable of winning the big trophies, I wouldn’t say happy but he’s hardly sufficiently angry about it....at least not any more. I do believe David Dein when he claimed he used to lock himself in his office and throw a paddy when he lost, and actually I don’t think his job was under any more pressure then than it is now arguably even less so because he’d either recently won a title or was at least pushing for it.
In a book written about Wenger, it talks about his time at Grampus Eight and he basically went into a rage at his players for losing, it wasn’t the lack of effort on the pitch it’s that they were indifferent to defeat.
And I think and I’ve said before that’s where Wenger is now, Mourinho is a cunt but one thing we learnt about him on Sunday is that he feels the sting when he loses to someone he considers a nemesis in Pep Guardiola. And Wenger had it as well, he enjoyed getting under the skin of Ferguson and hated losing to United more than any team.
If he hasn’t got that edge anymore why is he still here? Is it for money? Perhaps but one would argue if it was solely about that he still has enough reputation to get a cushy job in China. It’s the power I think that keeps him going, he knows he enjoys more influence over this club than any manager or coach has enjoyed over any club since the days of Jock Stein and Bill Nicholson.
Does he want to win things? I don’t think there is a manager in the game that doesn’t. But the years can whittle away your desire, and because there’s hardly any football people at the club you’d imagine even without the influence he has with Kroenke not too many people with the possible exception of an itchy footed Gazidis are too keen to tell him he’s done.
In terms of his relationship with the club, it’s largely a mutual admiration society....he loves them for the freedom and authority he’s allowed, and they love him because for ages he met their requirements of Top 4 finishes and now it doesn’t really matter either way.
Is he being a selfish prick with his behaviour? Of course but it wouldn’t really matter too much if he weren’t. It’s a results business....he could be the most altruistic and fan loyal manager there was but the fact is results are shit, performances are shit and that’s the bottom line....and that’s why we want him gone.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Nothing will change until Kroenke goes which probably means never.

I don’t necessarily think that’s true

Kroenkes one redeeming feature is that he doesn’t give a fuck about how the club is run. If Wenger goes, there is absolutely no way he will look to have input on who the next guy is. Why would he, doesn’t give a fuck.’

Now I’m not Gazidis’ biggest fan but I suspect he probably has the same reasonable idea any of us do as to who is a decent manager and who isn’t. We know Wenger is on ridiculous wages that would be a pull to big names as would the potential to turn round the fortunes of an under achieving club.

If he appoints A director of football which makes his own role in the football side of things even smaller, even better

It won’t happen overnight, but I’m relatively ok in theory with life post Wenger. It could be a fuck up but it could just as easily be very exciting new chapter

[Niall_Quinn]

Nothing will change until Kroenke goes which probably means never.

It seems to me things are changing - around Wenger. Despite him. Non-Wengerites are being hired. People who don't need to pander. Wenger's only response is to boast the football world knows him better than them. Not surprised. He's infamous.

[Letters]

So that's what you are up to is it? Giving Wenger some credit for "having a go"?
Nope. Please reply to what I'm actually posting, not what you're imagining I'm posting :tiphat:

[Letters]

Perhaps they can't believe their eyes when you post stuff? Like you trying to argue that Wenger's goal is not scrabbling into the top 4 and is instead titles and CLs.
Of course the latter is his goal, the former is all he can achieve which is why he needs to go.
I've provided a quote where he outlines his priorities, you have provided a quote which says something different to back up your view but you deliberately took that out of context and then, amusingly, said that quotes were meaningless which makes me question why you provided one. Or are quotes which back up your point relevant?

[Niall_Quinn]

Nope. Please reply to what I'm actually posting, not what you're imagining I'm posting :tiphat:

You want me to do something you aren't prepared to do yourself?

[Letters]

You want me to do something you aren't prepared to do yourself?

In this thread I have responded to everything you said. If you feel I've distorted your views here then please explain where.
You, on the other hand, have consistently responded to things I haven't said.

[Niall_Quinn]

Of course the latter is his goal, the former is all he can achieve which is why he needs to go.
I've provided a quote where he outlines his priorities, you have provided a quote which says something different to back up your view but you deliberately took that out of context and then, amusingly, said that quotes were meaningless which makes me question why you provided one. Or are quotes which back up your point relevant?

And almost EVERYONE has noted that what Wenger says in relation to winning titles is utter bullshit. I didn't say quotes were meaningless, I said your quote was meaningless because it is. Who the hell is gullible enough to pay heed to Wenger going on about prioritising titles and the CL when we can see with our own eyes his bullshit? If he wants to win titles and the CL then he'd best get on and sign the players to do it. He's had LOADS of opportunities to do that, he even boasts about all the players he almost signed but wouldn't pay for, even though the money was there (remember the 90 MILLION QUID BID FOR LEMAR???? ) He could have sorted out the defence. He could have sorted out the tactics. He could have sorted out the motivational problems in the squad, he could have injected the required ambition to actually compete and not collapse. He's done NONE of it. He's a giant bag of gas, a laughing stock. Treating us to his deep football insights and then sending out his team to get arse-whipped 6-0 or 8-2 or 10-2 when it really matters.

He's a joke. Can't you see everyone laughing?

But, nevertheless, I sincerely apologise for the last 10 years. Me, and fans like me, it's on us. We fucked up. What can I say. Maybe if we made 20,000 substitutions we'd get it right.

There's no argument here. All that's happening is you are defending that which can't be defended, based on the evidence. For some reason you feel the need to do it. Fewer people are listening. This ploy may have worked 5 years ago, but not now. Not one decade plus into this farce.

Of course he's incompetent. Of course he's a joke. Of course he's an unconvincing, shitty liar. Of course he doesn't prioritise the title or the CL. What the fuck are you talking about?

[Letters]

All that's happening is you are defending that which can't be defended, based on the evidence.
There you go again...
Where have I defended him?
Saying I believe he wants to win titles is neither a defence nor a criticism.

[Niall_Quinn]

There you go again...
Where have I defended him?
Saying I believe he wants to win titles is neither a defence nor a criticism.

Look up at my last post. Your bullshit is explained there.

Pretending that Wenger is seriously trying to win a title is so disingenuous it takes the breath away. Only two types of people who would make such an outrageous claim. Fools and con artists.

[Letters]

How is it a defence of Wenger though? He should want to win the title.
This is like you saying he doesn't want us to beat West Ham, me saying I think he does and you shouting at me for "defending" Wenger.
It's not a defence. He's our manager, he's supposed to want us to win games and trophies.

[Niall_Quinn]

How is it a defence of Wenger though? He should want to win the title.
This is like you saying he doesn't want us to beat West Ham, me saying I think he does and you shouting at me for "defending" Wenger.
It's not a defence. He's our manager, he's supposed to want us to win games and trophies.

More bullshit Letters. It's not this one thread in isolation, it's the combination of all of them. You've already, by your own words, appointed yourself the defender of Wenger against the harsh excesses of fans who fail your "reasonableness" test. Seems that provided we are prepared to say Wenger is an above average manager who is trying to win the title and the CL, we get a pass. Otherwise no, and we have to be confronted and corrected.

By your own words.

[Niall_Quinn]

And if you want to know WHY I post relentlessly against Wenger then I'll answer that.

Because that remnant of a man represents to me almost everything that is wrong with this world. An incompetent, deceitful, lying, money grabbing scum bag who has cemented power and is leeching every last atom of benefit from the privilege. While MILLIONS pay the price.

Does this remind you of so much other shit going on in this world?

All I want to do is escape the world for a couple of hours a week and watch some sport.

But we have Wenger.

[Letters]

More bullshit Letters. It's not this one thread in isolation, it's the combination of all of them. You've already, by your own words, appointed yourself the defender of Wenger against the harsh excesses of fans who fail your "reasonableness" test. Seems that provided we are prepared to say Wenger is an above average manager who is trying to win the title and the CL, we get a pass. Otherwise no, and we have to be confronted and corrected.

By your own words.

I've already addressed this but I just respond to what I feel is incorrect to discuss the topic. Isn't that what debate is?
Whether Wenger is too content with top 4 (yes, IMO) or whether it's his primary aim (no, IMO) seems a reasonable topic for debate.

Pretty sure I said this earlier on this very thread, but I would respond if there was a "Ty" on here who was relentlessly pro-Wenger and believed the next title is just around the corner. But there isn't so it just happens that given the mood on here the things I respond to tend to be the more extreme anti-Wenger views which I don't subscribe to.

That does not mean I defend him at every opportunity.
That does not mean I still want him here.

You can say what you like about Wenger or Kronke or the players any other subject in other areas of the forum.
Contrary to some people's belief, your views aren't being censored.
But if I disagree with you and I have the time and the inclination (and, honestly, as we are winding down for Christmas at work I have plenty of both right now) then I'll respond as I see fit.

[Letters]

All I want to do is escape the world for a couple of hours a week and watch some sport.

But we have Wenger.
May I recommend the MK Dons?


:run:

[Niall_Quinn]

I've already addressed this but I just respond to what I feel is incorrect to discuss the topic. Isn't that what debate is?
Whether Wenger is too content with top 4 (yes, IMO) or whether it's his primary aim (no, IMO) seems a reasonable topic for debate.

Pretty sure I said this earlier on this very thread, but I would respond if there was a "Ty" on here who was relentlessly pro-Wenger and believed the next title is just around the corner. But there isn't so it just happens that given the mood on here the things I respond to tend to be the more extreme anti-Wenger views which I don't subscribe to.

That does not mean I defend him at every opportunity.
That does not mean I still want him here.

You can say what you like about Wenger or Kronke or the players any other subject in other areas of the forum.
Contrary to some people's belief, your views aren't being censored.
But if I disagree with you and I have the time and the inclination (and, honestly, as we are winding down for Christmas at work I have plenty of both right now) then I'll respond as I see fit.

Erm... never suggested for a moment my views were being censored. And, btw, congratulating yourself for not being a censor is very much like self applause for not being a rapist.

Gatekeeping is not the same thing as debate. And you seem to underplay the frustration some fans feel when watching this shit show unfold when they KNOW it could be so much different, were it not for one man. Kroenke's a cunt, everyone agrees on that much. But he's not the guy who picks the team, the tactics, makes the subs, handles the transfer window, organises the coaching responsibilities, delegates (or not), etc. That's on Wenger and his fingerprints all over every repetitive failure, it's so painfully obvious. You don't watch the games any more so maybe you don't get it. But for those that do, and it's easily understandable why fans would want to watch the games no matter what, it's explosively irritating to watch this muppet as he wrecks season after season after season. Of course fans are going to blow off steam. And what could be more unwelcome than another fan pitching up and doing the , there, there, it's not as bad as you think, routine.

Well after all these years. Yes. It actually is as bad as we can think, say, see. It really is. It's beyond a joke now.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If Letters thinks he should be sacked, which he has claimed in his own words

Does it really matter which conclusions either of you come to in any real sense.

On the other hand I do think the “why do you watch it if you hate it” argument he makes is rather pointless

You may think your son is shit at the guitar and is in fact regressing, he may have a shit music tutor and the school he belongs to refuses to sack said music teacher who is old and living on past glories. But you will still listen to your sons guitar recitals even though you suspect he’s gonna hit loads of bum notes.

I never knew my son took guitar lessons. I didn’t even know he had a guitar.

[Letters]

Erm... never suggested for a moment my views were being censored. And, btw, congratulating yourself for not being a censor is very much like self applause for not being a rapist.
:lol:

And how do you know I'm not a rapist?
Will you stop putting words in my mouth. :sulk: