Match Reaction vs West Ham (away).

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Terrible, lifeless, Arsenal.

Also, we're 7th now so good news all round.

Sort your life out Wenger.

[Niall_Quinn]

GET OUT!

[Letters]

Hmm. Not very good really.

[Marc Overmars]

Deserved to lose if only for that sorry approach to playing football. Got lucky at the end after another horrific moment at the back.

We’re just dreadful. When are we going to get a decent coach? That might help you know.

[Niall_Quinn]

Hmm. Not very good really.

And it could be argued we've seen this over and over and over and over again and we'll see it again and again and again and again, many times to come. 10 years. More than 10 years. Same shit every season. But at least we are above average and have prioritised the title and the CL.

All is well.

[Niall_Quinn]

Deserved to lose if only for that sorry approach to playing football. Got lucky at the end after another horrific moment at the back.

We’re just dreadful. When are we going to get a decent coach? That might help you know.

How many prostitutions have you made :sulk:

[Globalgunner]

Can we concede the title now? Or is it still mathematically possible?

[Letters]

Can we concede the title now? Or is it still mathematically possible?

If City lose the next 7 in a row and we go on a run we'll be right back in it.

[dostoy]

If Wenger cannot see that Arsenal need defenders then he IS blind.

Mert is retiring and Kos and Monreal are both 32.

Arsenal need one in January and one more in the summer, it won't happen of course.

I don't know why people still support Arsenal, they are useless from top to bottom.

Within 18 months Wenger will get a new 2 year deal and it will go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

[Niall_Quinn]

Can we concede the title now? Or is it still mathematically possible?

We concede nothing until it is mathematically cheap.

[Letters]

Maybe this is like Rocky III where we are deliberately allowing ourselves to get punched senseless so we get mad and will suddenly spring into action soon. :unsure:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

If we can't redeem our sorry little lives by giving the Barcodes a good pumping, I may have to rethink my loyalty of having three Arsenal players in my FF team.

[dostoy]

Carlo Ancelotti is out of work and Arsenal keep going with Wenger.

That says it all about Arsenal Football club.

[Ralpheroo72]

I said after the Southampton game that we were now at our level, competing with the likes of Southampton and Watford, and Letters told me to behave. In actual fact, I was doing a dis-service to those teams, we are worse. The Decline has stepped up a gear, and there is no telling how bad we can get. As long as Stan and Wenger are there, we are absolutely fucked.

[Cripps]

Any bit of life and creativity has slowly been extinguished and what we're now seeing is a comatose and lustreless club.

We are slowly morphing into a top 6 team.

The manager thinks changing formations, backroom staff and buying players will solve things.

When will he realise?

[Niall_Quinn]

I said after the Southampton game that we were now at our level, competing with the likes of Southampton and Watford, and Letters told me to behave. In actual fact, I was doing a dis-service to those teams, we are worse. The Decline has stepped up a gear, and there is no telling how bad we can get. As long as Stan and Wenger are there, we are absolutely fucked.

Be careful what you wish for. I looked and there's nobody else out there who could replace him. We are also out-performing our major rivals. And we won tonight on possession and expected goals. We were a little bit tired after playing 36 games in 2 days. We lacked little bit sharpness in final third. Our culture and spirit will bounce back. This is not a joke club and nobody is laughing at us.

[Letters]

I said after the Southampton game that we were now at our level, competing with the likes of Southampton and Watford, and Letters told me to behave. In actual fact, I was doing a dis-service to those teams, we are worse. The Decline has stepped up a gear, and there is no telling how bad we can get. As long as Stan and Wenger are there, we are absolutely fucked.

We have 12 points more than Southampton, 8 points more than Watford.
If we are competing with the likes of Southampton and Watford then so are Spurs and Liverpool who are only a point above us.
So yes, that is a silly statement.
Our home form is fine, our away form is awful. Overall we're a top 6 team now, Southampton and Watford are not. I don't think Burnley are either when push comes to shove.

[Cripps]

I said after the Southampton game that we were now at our level, competing with the likes of Southampton and Watford, and Letters told me to behave. In actual fact, I was doing a dis-service to those teams, we are worse. The Decline has stepped up a gear, and there is no telling how bad we can get. As long as Stan and Wenger are there, we are absolutely fucked.

:lol: he has a habit of doing that.

About 5 years ago we told him Wenger was done. He told us to behave.
About 5 years ago we warned him we'd be uncompetitive. He told us to behave.
About 5 years ago we told him we'd drop out of the top 4. He told us to behave.

Luckily he was right and none of that turned out to be true...

[Niall_Quinn]

Arsenal Fan TV post match show opens up with...

"West Ham have done it again. Another barnstorming performance against one of the biggest and best teams in world football!"

What are they seeing?

How much are they getting paid?

[Marc Overmars]

Has he fucked off yet?

[Cripps]

Has he fucked off yet?

Who Letters? No.

[Cripps]

Arsenal Fan TV post match show opens up with...

"West Ham have done it again. Another barnstorming performance against one of the biggest and best teams in world football!"

What are they seeing?

How much are they getting paid?

They're seeing freebies and access.

[Niall_Quinn]

Has he fucked off yet?

Yes! He has! He's gone!

:woohoo::jumpnana::cheers:
















Don't spoil it for me.

[Power n Glory]

We have 12 points more than Southampton, 8 points more than Watford.
If we are competing with the likes of Southampton and Watford then so are Spurs and Liverpool who are only a point above us.
So yes, that is a silly statement.
Our home form is fine, our away form is awful. Overall we're a top 6 team now, Southampton and Watford are not. I don't think Burnley are either when push comes to shove.

Now wouldn't you say that's a decline and not just stagnation?

[Marc Overmars]

The decline is best measured by the absolutely rubbish brand of football on display. Can anyone honestly say they get a kick out of watching us play anymore? It’s such a chore.

The football is so outdated, no one plays like this anymore, especially in the PL.

[Chippy]

:lol: he has a habit of doing that.

About 5 years ago we told him Wenger was done. He told us to behave.
About 5 years ago we warned him we'd be uncompetitive. He told us to behave.
About 5 years ago we told him we'd drop out of the top 4. He told us to behave.

Luckily he was right and none of that turned out to be true...

Ashburton 2006 told him 10 years ago :unsure:

[Xhaka Can’t]

At the match against Huddersfield, which was my first for about two years, I realised I made the right decision to be done with going to matches.

I was offered free tickets for tonight but had a much better time watching Christmas Vacation.

Fuck Wenger and what he is doing to this Club.

[Power n Glory]

Last game I watched was the Spurs game. I think that's it for me. On a streak and might as well keep it going. Fuck Wenger.

[Niall_Quinn]

Now wouldn't you say that's a decline and not just stagnation?

You have to admit though, we are kicking Southampton's arse - except when we play them.

[Niall_Quinn]

The decline is best measured by the absolutely rubbish brand of football on display. Can anyone honestly say they get a kick out of watching us play anymore? It’s such a chore.

The football is so outdated, no one plays like this anymore, especially in the PL.

Don't like all the sideways and backwards passing? Turn the screen on its side. Problem solved.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoVTA7QEOZY

It's Gazidis and the board, Bellerin and Alexis.

But one man never seems to get a mention.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF5ZJTJvmOU

Ty - "Who are you going to get to replace him? Who are you going to get to replace him? Tell me. Who are you going to get to replace him?"

:haha: :haha: :haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

"We lacked little bit sharpness in final third." :haha: :haha:

A broken record.

We played on Sunday and they played on Saturday, that's the reason, apparently.

We had a lot of possession, btw.

:haha:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXHUqgYxuNI

[selassie]

We are literally at the mercy of Wenger, we’re absolutely screwed until he goes and I don’t think he is in a hurry to leave.

[Gooner23]

I knew the tiredness excuse would be slipped in, despite most of our players having only played 1 game a week this season. He just can't help himself.

[AFC Leveller]

I wonder if we finished 7th or 8th and lost Alexis and Ozil, would Wenger sign a new two year deal or a 3 year one?

[selassie]

I knew the tiredness excuse would be slipped in, despite most of our players having only played 1 game a week this season. He just can't help himself.

He is full of shit. He is the problem, the system is the problem and he is lying to himself, the football club and the fans if he thinks otherwise.

That's me done for now, I can't be bothered to put myself through another 90 minutes of that rubbish until things fundamentally change.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF5ZJTJvmOU

Ty - "Who are you going to get to replace him? Who are you going to get to replace him? Tell me. Who are you going to get to replace him?"

:haha: :haha: :haha:

People like Moh and Ty are entrenched, they are never going to change their minds

Ty at least is honest enough to admit it that there will never be a time when he won’t support Wenger

Moh hides behind oh well if I trusted the board to get in a proper replacement I would back getting rid of him

Knowing there’s no chance of Kroenke going or a significant change up in the running of the club

Be careful what you wish for holds no pull, what exactly are they afraid of happening?

[Özim]

Just embarassing to be honest, another string of poor results in a season already full of them, if the competition wasn't so poor we'd be nowhere near 4th. I guess for a club of our level it's a good achievement though as we know 4th is the ultimate goal.

The way I see it we beat Spurs and drew with Chelsea but that proves nothing about our quality as small teams get results against the big teams as well, these are one offs, we're really not a very good side.

Paying the price for complacency, moved to the stadium and saw a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, that's what it's all about.

[Özim]

"We lacked little bit sharpness in final third." :haha: :haha:

A broken record.

We played on Sunday and they played on Saturday, that's the reason, apparently.

We had a lot of possession, btw.

:haha:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXHUqgYxuNI

Excuses, excuses, excuses :blah:

Top teams don't need excuses, 2nd rate clubs with no ambition do, the amount of points we've dropped this season already is shocking.

[Letters]

Now wouldn't you say that's a decline and not just stagnation?

Ah, the D word. I agree with MO, there has been a clear decline in terms of quality an enjoyability of our play. In terms of end result though. Here are our position, points total and points off the top since 2004

2005 2nd 83 8
2006 4th 67 24
2007 4th 68 21
2008 3rd 83 4
2009 4th 72 18
2010 3rd 75 11
2011 4th 68 12
2012 3rd 70 19
2013 4th 73 16
2014 4th 79 7
2015 3rd 75 12
2016 2nd 71 10
2017 5th 75 18

I defy you to draw a graph of any of that and draw a line which shows a clear decline.. Since 2008 we haven't got over 80 points. Only once have we got within 10 points of the eventual champions. It's 10 years of bumbling around in the top 4, neither progress nor decline, stagnation. Last year was the first time we dropped out of the top 4 and that was only by 2 points. Those high fiving themselves and saying "told you so"...I'd suggest that you can make almost any prediction in a sport where fortunes fluctuate so much and if you keep repeating it you'll be "right" eventually. And will it be a one off slip out of the top 4? Impossible to say right now. We are 7th right now but only a point off 4th.

NQ made the point that we have gone from a "top 2" side to a "top 4" one and now a "top 6" side. My take on that is that there isn't a "top 2" any more. Chelsea and City have bought their way in. Spurs and Liverpool have done better the last couple of years, hence the top 6, but both are only a point above us right now. And actually it's only one year that both finished above us. I'll judge whether they finish above us this year in May ;). I don't believe any manager will come in and we will be regularly top 2, I don't think that's possible any more, none of the other usual suspects have managed it consistently. But I do believe another manager would get us challenging and even if they didn't it would at least be different, and it's getting to the point where that in itself would be a good thing.

Looking at the actual standings, points totals and gap off the top the last 10 years have been one of stagnation, not decline. It's too early to say whether last year's 5th place was a one off or the start of a trend. I'd say we are in real danger of decline if we lose both Ozil and Sanchez and don't find adequate replacements.

[Marc Overmars]

People like Moh and Ty are entrenched, they are never going to change their minds

Ty at least is honest enough to admit it that there will never be a time when he won’t support Wenger

Moh hides behind oh well if I trusted the board to get in a proper replacement I would back getting rid of him

Knowing there’s no chance of Kroenke going or a significant change up in the running of the club

Be careful what you wish for holds no pull, what exactly are they afraid of happening?

Stockholm syndrome, they're just afraid of the unknown. But anything has to be more exciting than knowing exactly what is going to happen every season. Be careful what you wish for? I'm pretty sure no one wished for what we're currently getting.

Thing is, it's not going to get worse than it already has because we're part of the established status quo and have the money to ensure we remain at a certain level. This is why I don't understand anyone telling me to be cautious about life after Wenger because I can't fucking wait!

[Letters]

Stockholm syndrome, they're just afraid of the unknown. But anything has to be more exciting than knowing exactly what is going to happen every season. Be careful what you wish for? I'm pretty sure no one wished for what we're currently getting.

Thing is, it's not going to get worse than it already has because we're part of the established status quo and have the money to ensure we remain at a certain level. This is why I don't understand anyone telling me to be cautious about life after Wenger because I can't fucking wait!

I was once like them...
I think when money was tight (and it was, let's not start all this revisionism) Wenger did reasonably well to keep us "up there". In that era I don't think it was unreasonable to think that we should give Wenger some benefit of the doubt and hope that when the money started flowing again we'd be back up there. The signings of Ozil and Sanchez and the FA Cups seemed like promising signs but we are still woefully short when it he comes to the biggest prizes. We still can't compete financially with Chelsea, City or Utd but we can certainly do a lot more than we are.

[GP]

No title challenges in a decade and barely escaping relegation last season means he needs to go now.

Time for people like Letters to stop defending literally everything he does.

[Letters]

Et tu, GP?

:(

[GP]

I don't speak French unlike your bumchum wenga

[Niall_Quinn]

Ah, the D word. I agree with MO, there has been a clear decline in terms of quality an enjoyability of our play. In terms of end result though. Here are our position, points total and points off the top since 2004

2005 2nd 83 8
2006 4th 67 24
2007 4th 68 21
2008 3rd 83 4
2009 4th 72 18
2010 3rd 75 11
2011 4th 68 12
2012 3rd 70 19
2013 4th 73 16
2014 4th 79 7
2015 3rd 75 12
2016 2nd 71 10
2017 5th 75 18

I defy you to draw a graph of any of that and draw a line which shows a clear decline.. Since 2008 we haven't got over 80 points. Only once have we got within 10 points of the eventual champions. It's 10 years of bumbling around in the top 4, neither progress nor decline, stagnation. Last year was the first time we dropped out of the top 4 and that was only by 2 points. Those high fiving themselves and saying "told you so"...I'd suggest that you can make almost any prediction in a sport where fortunes fluctuate so much and if you keep repeating it you'll be "right" eventually. And will it be a one off slip out of the top 4? Impossible to say right now. We are 7th right now but only a point off 4th.

NQ made the point that we have gone from a "top 2" side to a "top 4" one and now a "top 6" side. My take on that is that there isn't a "top 2" any more. Chelsea and City have bought their way in. Spurs and Liverpool have done better the last couple of years, hence the top 6, but both are only a point above us right now. And actually it's only one year that both finished above us. I'll judge whether they finish above us this year in May ;). I don't believe any manager will come in and we will be regularly top 2, I don't think that's possible any more, none of the other usual suspects have managed it consistently. But I do believe another manager would get us challenging and even if they didn't it would at least be different, and it's getting to the point where that in itself would be a good thing.

Looking at the actual standings, points totals and gap off the top the last 10 years have been one of stagnation, not decline. It's too early to say whether last year's 5th place was a one off or the start of a trend. I'd say we are in real danger of decline if we lose both Ozil and Sanchez and don't find adequate replacements.

My new take on it is there's no "top 2" or "top 4" or "top 6". Leicester proved that. One year they are battling relegation, next they are champions. So what we really have is a Top 20. Now it just so happens this club has never been out of the Top 20 since the PL began! It's hard to know what else the club could do to please some of these fans.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HmpBgDFEpg

[Letters]

:shitpost:

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't know how we can be expected to beat clubs that park the bus at their own stadiums. Not when Utd and the gypos have so much money. If we had FFP, our 50 mill striker who was on the bench might have scored. And look at what the chav money has done to Kos. Look at the mistakes he's making. As for Utd, don't get me started. Money, money, money, and off goes Ramsey running up the field. Pep gets his chequebook out, Bif misses an open goal. We could have signed Lemar for 50 mill, but Oh No, Abramovich has loads of cash!

These are the realities Wenger has had to deal with. And he's done pretty well. All this while he was digging out the foundations for the new stadium and hauling the bricks in. Yet fans complain about his pay rise. They should try building a stadium themselves, rather than moaning when Xhaka passes straight to the opposition causing us to concede a goal.

[Letters]

:shitpost:

[Niall_Quinn]

Arsenal’s utter lack of creativity in midfield...

A standout stat from the first-half was Jack Wilshere’s 100 per cent pass accuracy. While that seems impressive, it spoke for an issue Arsenal had throughout the game.

They decided to field Mesut Ozil in a midfield three from the off. Him and Wilshere played as No 8s while Granit Xhaka had the job of guarding the back four.

The problem was that nobody was playing passes from midfield that offered any penetration. Wilshere seemed happy to play it side to side. Ozil grew frustrated at a lack of movement ahead of him in the second-half, screaming at those in front before playing another pass across the middle.


Giroud has only scored once in eight starts. It might be worth accepting he is best as a super sub.


Arsenal have become so boring... from issues in midfield to anonymous players in attack, Arsene Wenger has problems to solve to finish in top four


When it comes to Wilshere, it’s easy enough to make all of your passes reach a team-mate if you are taking no risks. He only created one chance all match. He was doing Xhaka’s job rather than breaking forward, as was expected of him.

Several years late to the party, but finally the media is catching up with the fans.

[Niall_Quinn]

Meanwhile, back on Fantasy Island in the Bubble Complex...


"There is one very accurate and objective way to assess how well and how consistently clubs perform in this area of transfers over time," Gazidis said. "This method is accurate enough to be the industry standard way to analyse.


"It is very simply to compare team performance by a series of objective metrics, usually league position or points, against expenditure on transfers.


"No club has a perfect record every year under this scrutiny but Arsenal has probably been, of the big clubs certainly, the most consistently over-performing team over time.


"That is, despite the criticism we get and the emotion here in the room, and despite some very loud subjective narratives and a great deal of inaccurate information.


Is that why we won't spend big on transfers? So we can "objectively" be the best performing team in the league? But wait a minute! Didn't we make a profit in the transfer window? That's a negative spend. When you divide our performance by a negative number, isn't the answer negative too? Does this mean we have been less than shit?

Maybe, like somebody else, I'm not very good at maths.

[Power n Glory]

Ah, the D word. I agree with MO, there has been a clear decline in terms of quality an enjoyability of our play. In terms of end result though. Here are our position, points total and points off the top since 2004

2005 2nd 83 8
2006 4th 67 24
2007 4th 68 21
2008 3rd 83 4
2009 4th 72 18
2010 3rd 75 11
2011 4th 68 12
2012 3rd 70 19
2013 4th 73 16
2014 4th 79 7
2015 3rd 75 12
2016 2nd 71 10
2017 5th 75 18

I defy you to draw a graph of any of that and draw a line which shows a clear decline.. Since 2008 we haven't got over 80 points. Only once have we got within 10 points of the eventual champions. It's 10 years of bumbling around in the top 4, neither progress nor decline, stagnation. Last year was the first time we dropped out of the top 4 and that was only by 2 points. Those high fiving themselves and saying "told you so"...I'd suggest that you can make almost any prediction in a sport where fortunes fluctuate so much and if you keep repeating it you'll be "right" eventually. And will it be a one off slip out of the top 4? Impossible to say right now. We are 7th right now but only a point off 4th.

NQ made the point that we have gone from a "top 2" side to a "top 4" one and now a "top 6" side. My take on that is that there isn't a "top 2" any more. Chelsea and City have bought their way in. Spurs and Liverpool have done better the last couple of years, hence the top 6, but both are only a point above us right now. And actually it's only one year that both finished above us. I'll judge whether they finish above us this year in May ;). I don't believe any manager will come in and we will be regularly top 2, I don't think that's possible any more, none of the other usual suspects have managed it consistently. But I do believe another manager would get us challenging and even if they didn't it would at least be different, and it's getting to the point where that in itself would be a good thing.

Looking at the actual standings, points totals and gap off the top the last 10 years have been one of stagnation, not decline. It's too early to say whether last year's 5th place was a one off or the start of a trend. I'd say we are in real danger of decline if we lose both Ozil and Sanchez and don't find adequate replacements.

I defy you to draw a graph based on our league position and not points tally and tell me there has been no decline. We once won the league with 78 points. We’re on the decline. You can’t measure the performance of a team in isolation without looking at the competition and growth in the market. Nobody does that. What was good enough 10 or 20 years ago doesn’t mean it’s enough for today.

[Cripps]

:lol: stats

Stats made Denilson look like Xavi when he was more like Luke Chadwick.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I defy you to draw a graph based on our league position and not points tally and tell me there has been no decline. We once won the league with 78 points. We’re on the decline. You can’t measure the performance of a team in isolation without looking at the competition and growth in the market. Nobody does that. What was good enough 10 or 20 years ago doesn’t mean it’s enough for today.

Current league position or league position at seasons end

I made the point a few months ago that between 1998 and 2005 we finished 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd

Then there was a decline to a lower tier between 2006 and 2016 where we finished 4th, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd

Now arguably we’ve fallen down another step

So Letters is right in the sense that it’s largely been stagnation, and you are right in the sense that eventually fail to push forward has slowly pushed us backwards.

The graph would read a steady line followed by a short drop followed by a steady line

Rio Ferdinand is right in the sense that we are going backwards, in the sense that our points accumulation is much the same as it ever was but we are being pushed out by forward thinking and ambitious clubs.

[Letters]

I defy you to draw a graph based on our league position and not points tally and tell me there has been no decline. We once won the league with 78 points. We’re on the decline. You can’t measure the performance of a team in isolation without looking at the competition and growth in the market. Nobody does that. What was good enough 10 or 20 years ago doesn’t mean it’s enough for today.

I've given the league positions above... :shrug:
This is pretty much what that graph would look like though:

xx
xxxx
xxxx
xxx
xxxx
xxx
xxxx
xxx
xxxx
xxxx
xxx
xx
xxxxx


You could compare these two years

2005 2nd 83 8
2006 4th 67 24

And say there's a clear decline but then 3 years later it was:

2009 4th 72 18

And then last year:

2017 5th 75 18

That's the first year we finished outside the top 4 and it was only by 2 points. We don't know yet whether that marks the start of a period outside the top 4 or was a blip.
There has been a decline in terms of quality of our play, in terms of league position and points total, not so much.

[Letters]

I made the point a few months ago that between 1998 and 2005 we finished 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd

Then there was a decline to a lower tier between 2006 and 2016 where we finished 4th, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd

Agreed, although it has to be acknowledged that that step down to a "top 4" club instead of a "top 2" club happened when Chelsea and City bought their way in. As I said above, there isn't a "top 2" any more.


Now arguably we’ve fallen down another step

Arguably, but one year outside the top 4 and then only by 2 points does not definitively show that. This season will add another data point and right now it's very hard to call where that data point will lie.
We won't finish top 2 but 3rd is arguably and 4th definitely up for grabs. Impossible to tell right now.

[Letters]

106

This isn't very good but I knocked it up quickly. It goes from 1989 to last season.
There's no clear line between the titles in 1989 and 1998.
You could argue that you can draw a line showing decline between 1998 and the current day.
I'd suggest a more accurate analysis is a period of us being a "top 2" club between 1998 and 2005.
Then a fairly rapid descent to a "top 4", and generally towards the bottom of that top 4, from 2006-present.
From 2006 till now there has been no clear decline or progress. We've kinda oscillated between 3rd and 4th, the exceptions being the last 2 years when we finished 2nd then 5th.

[Power n Glory]

I've given the league positions above... :shrug:
This is pretty much what that graph would look like though:

xx
xxxx
xxxx
xxx
xxxx
xxx
xxxx
xxx
xxxx
xxxx
xxx
xx
xxxxx


You could compare these two years

2005 2nd 83 8
2006 4th 67 24

And say there's a clear decline but then 3 years later it was:

2009 4th 72 18

And then last year:

2017 5th 75 18

That's the first year we finished outside the top 4 and it was only by 2 points. We don't know yet whether that marks the start of a period outside the top 4 or was a blip.
There has been a decline in terms of quality of our play, in terms of league position and points total, not so much.

In 1998 we won the league with 78 points. Last season we finished on 75 points. In 2014 we finished on 79 points. Would anyone in their right mind argue that we’re slightly better than the 98 team or just a few points off from them?

[Cripps]

2005 2nd 83 8
2017 5th 75 18



No decline:lol:

#OneArseneWenger

[Letters]

In 1998 we won the league with 78 points. Last season we finished on 75 points. In 2014 we finished on 79 points. Would anyone in their right mind argue that we’re slightly better than the 98 team or just a few points off from them?
What are you looking at now? Points total or league position? I've provided both but the graph you asked for was league position. I've provided it.
No-one would sensibly claim that there has been no decline since 1998. Clearly we are nowhere near at that level.
But people for years have been saying we are "in decline". There has been no steady decline since 1998.
There was a pretty consistent level between 1998 and 2004, if anything an improvement culminating in "The Invincibles" in 2004.
In 2 years we tumbled from that dizzy height to 4th place, 67 points, 24 points off the top in 2006.
Since then we've pretty much stayed at that level. There have been hints at improvement, 2008 the closest we came to a title challenge. But overall we've bumbled around the top 4.
There has been no consistent decline or improvement, just stagnation.

Look at the part of the graph from 2006 till the current day and tell me you can draw anything other than a pretty straight line through it.
Last year we did finally fall out of the top 4 but we don't know yet whether that was the start of more decline or a one off. We won't be able to tell till the end of this season and the next couple of years.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Agreed, although it has to be acknowledged that that step down to a "top 4" club instead of a "top 2" club happened when Chelsea and City bought their way in. As I said above, there isn't a "top 2" any more.



Arguably, but one year outside the top 4 and then only by 2 points does not definitively show that. This season will add another data point and right now it's very hard to call where that data point will lie.
We won't finish top 2 but 3rd is arguably and 4th definitely up for grabs. Impossible to tell right now.

It’s acknowledged by the statement that stagnation in this league is the same as going backwards over a period of time

The facts are clear, since the 08/09 season we have failed to go through a season losing fewer than 7 games

Since 04/05 we have failed to win more than 24 games in a season.

We have failed to ever win more than 15 out of 19 home games and average 12 since the move to the Emirates

We average 8-9 wins away from home since moving to the Emirates.

So our average is essentially 21 wins a season, a total that hasn’t been good enough to win the league ever

[Letters]

So our average is essentially 21 wins a season, a total that hasn’t been good enough to win the league ever
Right. But since the fairly alarming decline from the dizzy heights of the Invincibles in 2004 to 2006 when we got (I think) our lowest points total under Wenger there has been a fairly consistent level.
Consistently not good enough, but the last 10 years have NOT been ones of steady decline.
Whether last season's 5th place was the start of another drop in level remains to be seen. It's certainly possible, if we lose Ozil and Sanchez without replacement then even probably. But it's impossible to know right now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Right. But since the fairly alarming decline from the dizzy heights of the Invincibles in 2004 to 2006 when we got (I think) our lowest points total under Wenger there has been a fairly consistent level.
Consistently not good enough, but the last 10 years have NOT been ones of steady decline.
Whether last season's 5th place was the start of another drop in level remains to be seen. It's certainly possible, if we lose Ozil and Sanchez without replacement then even probably. But it's impossible to know right now.

The point I’m making is that we are standing still but in standing still we are moving backwards

It’s been a very slow decline with peaks and troughs, but as I’ve said for 12 years or more we have lacked the fortitude to even challenge for the title

And now we are entering the realm where we may not be that competitive for top four. The world rotates but we don’t feel it move

[Cripps]

What are you looking at now? Points total or league position? I've provided both but the graph you asked for was league position. I've provided it.
No-one would sensibly claim that there has been no decline since 1998. Clearly we are nowhere near at that level.
But people for years have been saying we are "in decline". There has been no steady decline since 1998.
There was a pretty consistent level between 1998 and 2004, if anything an improvement culminating in "The Invincibles" in 2004.
In 2 years we tumbled from that dizzy height to 4th place, 67 points, 24 points off the top in 2006.
Since then we've pretty much stayed at that level. There have been hints at improvement, 2008 the closest we came to a title challenge. But overall we've bumbled around the top 4.
There has been no consistent decline or improvement, just stagnation.

Look at the part of the graph from 2006 till the current day and tell me you can draw anything other than a pretty straight line through it.
Last year we did finally fall out of the top 4 but we don't know yet whether that was the start of more decline or a one off. We won't be able to tell till the end of this season and the next couple of years.

:lol: starts off by saying there's been no decline then finishes by saying "last year we did finally fall out of the top 4 but we don't know yet whether that was the start of more decline" :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think he’s trying to argue that we haven’t been on a downward spiral..which we haven’t. Just a very slow sustained period of entropy.

[Letters]

I think he’s trying to argue that we haven’t been on a downward spiral..which we haven’t. Just a very slow sustained period of entropy.

It's not even an argument, it's just a fact. Since 2006 there has been no steady decline, no spiral downwards.
That really isn't an opinion, the facts show that clearly.

But I take the point that other teams have improved while we've stood still which makes our top 4 place less assured. That said, there were years back in the day when the more hysterical posters said we would end up in mid-table or worse and that never happened. Quite amusing that those posters now pretend they've been vindicated after one year where we finished 5th by 2 points.
There is a worry if Ozil and Sanchez go though that we will be seriously lacking quality and if we haven't finished top 4 this year it will be hard to attract quality.

[Power n Glory]

I think he’s trying to argue that we haven’t been on a downward spiral..which we haven’t. Just a very slow sustained period of entropy.

Goal post shifting in other words.

[Cripps]

Goal post shifting in other words.

Listen stop feeling vindicated for being right :lol:

[Letters]

Goal post shifting in other words.

:rolleyes: Do try responding to what I'm actually saying, not what you think I am. You asked for a graph, I provided one which shows a complete flat line since 2006.
Where has the decline been since then?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's not even an argument, it's just a fact. Since 2006 there has been no steady decline, no spiral downwards.
That really isn't an opinion, the facts show that clearly.

But I take the point that other teams have improved while we've stood still which makes our top 4 place less assured. That said, there were years back in the day when the more hysterical posters said we would end up in mid-table or worse and that never happened. Quite amusing that those posters now pretend they've been vindicated after one year where we finished 5th by 2 points.
There is a worry if Ozil and Sanchez go though that we will be seriously lacking quality and if we haven't finished top 4 this year it will be hard to attract quality.

The doomsday scenarios aren’t really relevant

The argument is as stagnant as Arsenal’s premier league performances

The extent of the rot is unimportant but a slow dry rot has long set in

And that can be seen beyond points, look at the players we’ve bought in and have just slowly become more and more average. I don’t rate Xhaka or Ramsey but I don’t think they’d stink the place out the way they do under Wenger

You keep going on about losing Sanchez and Özil, well Ozil with the best will in the world is a luxury player for whom he simply cannot be bothered to put in a performance half the time. Sanchez mentally checked out in May, name me one solid performance from him all season?

Lacazette is going to become disillusioned about being underused and about the lack of service he gets from midfield

If it’s not decline, it’s Stephen Hawkins style stagnancy.....by all logic he should be dead by now and we should be more shambolic by league position than we’ve proved to be. We are held together by gaffer tape and gum.

[Marc Overmars]

Stagnation or decline, does it really matter when you're nowhere near being competitive either way? We've debated pretty much everything and now we're left with talking about how high or low we place on the shit scale. It's still shit guys! :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:rolleyes: Do try responding to what I'm actually saying, not what you think I am. You asked for a graph, I provided one which shows a complete flat line since 2006.
Where has the decline been since then?

Like the old rotting oak tree we have somehow managed to stay upright against the breeze. Last year the breeze toppled us over and Wengers beloved pride and joy of the top four finish was spoilt (no that’s not saying that’s all he cares about, but he takes altogether far too much pride in it). Instead of planting a new tree we’ve hoisted up the old tree and placed rusty scaffolding around it.

[Gooner23]

Stagnation or decline, does it really matter when you're nowhere near being competitive either way? We've debated pretty much everything and now we're left with talking about how high or low we place on the shit scale. It's still shit guys! :lol:

Exactly right.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Stagnation or decline, does it really matter when you're nowhere near being competitive either way? We've debated pretty much everything and now we're left with talking about how high or low we place on the shit scale. It's still shit guys! :lol:

Spot on

[Cripps]

Goal post shifting in other words.

Notice how he starts off with:

2005 2nd 83 8
2006 4th 67 24
2007 4th 68 21
2008 3rd 83 4
2009 4th 72 18
2010 3rd 75 11
2011 4th 68 12
2012 3rd 70 19
2013 4th 73 16
2014 4th 79 7
2015 3rd 75 12
2016 2nd 71 10
2017 5th 75 18

Then drops 2005 out of the argument and talks about 2006 when he realises he's losing the argument :lol:

[Letters]

Stagnation or decline, does it really matter when you're nowhere near being competitive either way?
We've debated pretty much everything and now we're left with talking about how high or low we place on the shit scale. It's still shit guys! :lol:

That's a fair point. So what should we talk about? :shrug:

[Letters]

2006 4th 67 24
2017 5th 75 18
In decline :haha:


Am I doing this right? :coffee:

[Marc Overmars]

That's a fair point. So what should we talk about? :shrug:

No idea. There probably won't be anything interesting to talk about until Wenger calls it a day.

[Niall_Quinn]

Stagnation or decline, does it really matter when you're nowhere near being competitive either way? We've debated pretty much everything and now we're left with talking about how high or low we place on the shit scale. It's still shit guys! :lol:

It's only Letters tbf. He's just doing his job.

[Letters]

It's only Letters tbf. He's just doing his job.

Ironically, that's pretty much the opposite of what I'm doing.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's a fair point. So what should we talk about? :shrug:

How about talking about how massive a cunt Wenger is? Seems to be a popular topic with many fans these days. Finally.

[Cripps]

We're just calling Letters out for being wrong as usual. There's no harm in that :shrug:

Lettuce :console:

[Niall_Quinn]

I think he’s trying to argue that we haven’t been on a downward spiral..which we haven’t. Just a very slow sustained period of entropy.

We've been hanging in mid-air over a sheer drop for several seasons now, like Wile E. Coyote. The fall will come. That contract for Wenger in the summer will have lasting and harmful effects. Two more years of his bullshit when we were already flogged to death by his breathtaking complacency and incompetence. We could have sacked the cunt and sent a strong signal to the squad and then brought somebody else to build on that squad. We did the opposite and the price for that folly has yet to be paid.

[selassie]

Stagnation or decline, does it really matter when you're nowhere near being competitive either way? We've debated pretty much everything and now we're left with talking about how high or low we place on the shit scale. It's still shit guys! :lol:

:gp:

Co-Signed!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We've been hanging in mid-air over a sheer drop for several seasons now, like Wile E. Coyote. The fall will come. That contract for Wenger in the summer will have lasting and harmful effects. Two more years of his bullshit when we were already flogged to death by his breathtaking complacency and incompetence. We could have sacked the cunt and sent a strong signal to the squad and then brought somebody else to build on that squad. We did the opposite and the price for that folly has yet to be paid.

I prefer my rotten oak tree reference

Meep Meep!

[Power n Glory]

We have 12 points more than Southampton, 8 points more than Watford.
If we are competing with the likes of Southampton and Watford then so are Spurs and Liverpool who are only a point above us.
So yes, that is a silly statement.
Our home form is fine, our away form is awful. Overall we're a top 6 team now, Southampton and Watford are not. I don't think Burnley are either when push comes to shove.

Based of what you said and what I originally responded to above, wouldn't that mean we're on a decline if we're now a Top 6 team and may finish outside of the top 4 again?

I'm not talking about since 2005, I'm responding to what you said yesterday and based off where we are today and if we finish outside of the top 4. It's very simple.

[Letters]

So, in brief.
Letters is right. There's been no decline since 2006. Letters :bow:
But there's been no progress either despite the money now being available to compete and we are now in danger of decline.
So Wenger is a massive ****.

Shall I just shut the board now till he leaves? Have I won the Internet?

[Letters]

Based of what you said and what I originally responded to above, wouldn't that mean we're on a decline if we're now a Top 6 team and may finish outside of the top 4 again?

I'm not talking about since 2005, I'm responding to what you said yesterday and based off where we are today and if we finish outside of the top 4. It's very simple.

Oh good, a grown up. Hello.
If we finish outside the top 4 again then yes, it would establish more of a pattern of not being a "top 4" side any more which would show decline. But right now that is an "if".
Overall since 2006 we've not declined or progressed with any consistency but there is a danger of us slipping out of the top 4 on a regular basis not just a one off, I think if we lose Ozil and Sanchez we could be properly screwed.

[Özim]

I still think I'm right when I saw awful manager, awful team, I'd also like to add awful club.

Our results this season just shows how average we are, dropping points left right and centre, the odd decent result proves little, any team can do that.

As Lacazette said, CL qualification is our aim, not the title, we've been going backwards for years, the football is poor, the results are poor, the level of success is low, the quality of players in the team is much lower than before everything is substandard compared to what it use to be.

Considering the quality of the PL has been going down in recent years (as highlighted by their struggles in the CL) our points total proves little, what you see with your own eyes is a better gauge and what we've seen is abject performances week in week out.

[Power n Glory]

Notice how he starts off with:

2005 2nd 83 8
2006 4th 67 24
2007 4th 68 21
2008 3rd 83 4
2009 4th 72 18
2010 3rd 75 11
2011 4th 68 12
2012 3rd 70 19
2013 4th 73 16
2014 4th 79 7
2015 3rd 75 12
2016 2nd 71 10
2017 5th 75 18

Then drops 2005 out of the argument and talks about 2006 when he realises he's losing the argument :lol:

Exactly. Disingenuous and shifting goal posts. Doesn't take onto account other teams having bad season either because in 2016 we could have finished outside of the Top 4 with that tally of 71 points.

A senseless argument. We're in a competition and not just competing against ourselves. Point tally at the end of the season isn't an accurate barometer of our decline. It may look steady with us always finishing on a certain amount but with us standing still, we're dropping further down the pecking order.

[Power n Glory]

Oh good, a grown up. Hello.
If we finish outside the top 4 again then yes, it would establish more of a pattern of not being a "top 4" side any more which would show decline. But right now that is an "if".
Overall since 2006 we've not declined or progressed with any consistency but there is a danger of us slipping out of the top 4 on a regular basis not just a one off, I think if we lose Ozil and Sanchez we could be properly screwed.

You introduced this 'since 2006' trope, not me. Why that year? Why not track it over the whole of Wenger's tenure? Also, why are you just looking at end of point tally? What about player quality and areas of our game? Have we improved defensively or gotten worse? What about our midfield and attack? Players we're producing? It's a long list.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Under Wenger at least under the first half of his tenure we experienced highs and the kind of football that we as fans can be eternally grateful for. But those days have been over for a long time and they aren’t coming back under him he has no more corners to turn, nothing more to offer than disappointment.
The guy is 68 and he isn’t and never was Alex Ferguson the likelihood is that we will continue to regress the longer he stays with us. He has tarnished his reputation and he is damaging the club, I don’t believe that damage is anywhere near irreparable but there will come a point sooner rather than later that it will be if he doesn’t fuck off.
He is a selfish old cunt for not going in the summer, anyone who argues that he didn’t put himself before the club needs to perhaps examine why they support Arsenal in the first place.
I don’t hate him, people I hate I wish harm to...I don’t wish him harm I just want him to go.

I would hope at least that for all the microanalysis going on, we do all within reason agree with this.

[Cripps]

I hate him.

[Niall_Quinn]

I hate him too. Well, I hate him when I think about him. I don't want to kill him, but I problably will want to next season - and definitely if he stays beyond that. In fact won't somebody have to kill him just to get rid of him?

Btw - this is a JOKE - for you nasty little brownshirts trawling the Internet, I don't want to kill anyone. Except you.

[Niall_Quinn]

Under Wenger at least under the first half of his tenure we experienced highs and the kind of football that we as fans can be eternally grateful for. But those days have been over for a long time and they aren’t coming back under him he has no more corners to turn, nothing more to offer than disappointment.
The guy is 68 and he isn’t and never was Alex Ferguson the likelihood is that we will continue to regress the longer he stays with us. He has tarnished his reputation and he is damaging the club, I don’t believe that damage is anywhere near irreparable but there will come a point sooner rather than later that it will be if he doesn’t fuck off.
He is a selfish old cunt for not going in the summer, anyone who argues that he didn’t put himself before the club needs to perhaps examine why they support Arsenal in the first place.
I don’t hate him, people I hate I wish harm to...I don’t wish him harm I just want him to go.

I would hope at least that for all the microanalysis going on, we do all within reason agree with this.

Yes, but who is there to replace him?

Agreed, nobody.

/thread

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I hate him too. Well, I hate him when I think about him. I don't want to kill him, but I problably will want to next season - and definitely if he stays beyond that. In fact won't somebody have to kill him just to get rid of him?

Btw - this is a JOKE - for you nasty little brownshirts trawling the Internet, I don't want to kill anyone. Except you.

We all have varying definitions of Hate
When I say I hate someone. I mean I hope they get a malignant tumour that kills them slowly

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yes, but who is there to replace him?

Agreed, nobody.

/thread

I didn’t watch the Ty video. Did anyone actually suggest any names to him?

[Niall_Quinn]

I didn’t watch the Ty video. Did anyone actually suggest any names to him?

Of course not. It's Ty.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Quite embarrassingly the ginger tart Durham on talk sport reminded the listeners the other day that Wenger said 3 years ago that we would win the title by 3 years time. Need anything more be said......

[Letters]

You introduced this 'since 2006' trope, not me. Why that year?
Because that marked the end of 2 years of decline from the brilliance of The Invincibles in 2004 to 2006 where we just barely scraped top 4.
THAT was the decline. Since then we've been bumbling around in the top 4 but mostly towards the bottom of the top 4.
I don't know why you think I'm focusing on points tally. I gave points tally, final league position and points off the top for each season.
All of those give some indication of how we've done and none of those metrics show a consistent decline since 2006.


Why not track it over the whole of Wenger's tenure?
Because no-one would sensibly argue that we are as good as we were at the start of Wenger's time with us. What people have argued for much of the last 10 years is that we are "in decline". That just isn't bourne out by the facts. It was you who asked me "draw a graph based on our league position and not points tally and tell me there has been no decline.". So I did. You could be simplistic about it and draw a line from 1998 when we finished 1st and last season when we finished 5th and say "See? There has been consistent decline". But that doesn't reflect the reality of what has happened. It would be equally dishonest to draw a line between 1998 and 2016 and say "See? We've only slipped from 1st to 2nd"

The reality is this:
From 1998 to 2004 we finished either 1st or 2nd every year. If anything our quality improved over those years.
Then there was 2 years of serious decline.
Since then we've finished either 3rd or 4th every year. The points tally, the league position, the points off the top. There has been no consistent gradual decline in any of those things since then.

If you disagree with that then I'd be interested to hear on what basis.

The quality of football has declined certainly and we are in danger of slipping down another level but it's too early to tell whether last year's 5th place was a blip or the sign of things to come.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Decline. Stagnation. Argue about that all you want. All I know is that what I am watching is shit and progressively getting worse whenever I have the stomach to watch it.

There is no way we are even going to stand still with Wenger in charge. It just gets worse and worse with zero confidence it will ever improve under Wenger.

[Niall_Quinn]

Very silly argument really.

It's like jumping out of a plane without a parachute and celebrating when you sustain terminal velocity.

The football is in decline. Can anybody seriously argue otherwise?

The reputation of the club is in decline, just ask Alexis, Ozil and Ox (or Theo's your man if you want the other side)

The reputation of the manager, he's a joke but it isn't funny at all.

Our reputation in Europe, they must cheer when they draw us.

But in this money first, football last pub league that is the PL, we can bob around the 4th place spot and pull in a few extra quid for the leeches.

In fact the decline is so sharp some of the fans want to look on the bright side by claiming mere stagnation. Whatever.

Looks a lot like decline to me. Especially when I watch videos of our title winning teams.

[Niall_Quinn]

A West Ham fan thanking us for having such a shit manager.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeZn1ZDv1Ks

[Letters]

Decline. Stagnation. Argue about that all you want. All I know is that what I am watching is shit and progressively getting worse whenever I have the stomach to watch it.
No argument there, the quality of football has definitely declined. 10 years ago we might have been hanging on to the coattails of the top 4 but I basically enjoyed the games.
Now, not so much. Watching Arsenal games these days is generally a very frustrating and joyless experience.

[Letters]

Looks a lot like decline to me. Especially when I watch videos of our title winning teams.

Yes, of course. No-one is arguing there has been no decline since the heights of 2004, it was more a sharp decline over 2 years and since then we've bumbled around neither progressing or declining.
But yes, the quality of football has gone off a cliff. It's not enjoyable watching us any more, which is one of the reasons I don't.

[GP]

If we carry on like this there's a small chance we won't win the league this season.

[Letters]

If we carry on like this there's a small chance we won't win the league this season.

Right :angry:

None of this anti-Wenger nonsense. AKB.

That's a banning :threaten:

[Marc Overmars]

No argument there, the quality of football has definitely declined. 10 years ago we might have been hanging on to the coattails of the top 4 but I basically enjoyed the games.
Now, not so much. Watching Arsenal games these days is generally a very frustrating and joyless experience.

The Cesc-led years were equally as frustrating in other ways but thinking back with today’s team as a comparison, the football was actually quite good. We’d create chances for fun in every game, wouldn’t always finish them off but it was edge of your seat stuff. Of course they suffered from the same mentality issues as well but certainly that’s the best football we’ve played since the glory days. We even managed to progress in the CL on a couple of occasions as well.

Now though as you say, it’s mostly joyless with the odd nugget of surprise thrown in. I don’t think the fans have ever felt this disconnected from the team.

[GP]

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Wenger the Wise?

[Letters]

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Wenger the Wise?

Never underestimate the power of the farce...

[Cripps]

All I know is that what I am watching is shit and progressively getting worse whenever I have the stomach to watch it.

There is no way we are even going to stand still with Wenger in charge. It just gets worse and worse with zero confidence it will ever improve under Wenger.

Well said

As you say, it's declining and getting worse and worse :(

Hate being right :(

[Niall_Quinn]

If we carry on like this there's a small chance we won't win the league this season.

No we know who to blame if we get pipped at the post.

[Letters]

No we know who to blame if we get pipped at the post.

Oil money? Right?

[Niall_Quinn]

On a nice brisk Friday morning with me having got my work done yesterday so not having to rush around like a hungover person who didn't get their work done, I don't really care much about him or the club. I'll judge him at the end of the day.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think the problem is that the rot is so slow that it will convince people it’s not happening

Since 2009, not been able to go through a league season losing less than 7 games
Since 2015, despite 15 attempts we haven’t been able to register an away victory at a top six side
Between 2011 and 2017, no matter who we were drawn with we couldn’t get into the 1/4 finals of the champions league
Haven’t won more than 14 out of 19 home games since 2010
Cannot challenge for the league without spectacular collapse February/March time since we last won it

[Power n Glory]

Because that marked the end of 2 years of decline from the brilliance of The Invincibles in 2004 to 2006 where we just barely scraped top 4.
THAT was the decline. Since then we've been bumbling around in the top 4 but mostly towards the bottom of the top 4.
I don't know why you think I'm focusing on points tally. I gave points tally, final league position and points off the top for each season.
All of those give some indication of how we've done and none of those metrics show a consistent decline since 2006.


Because no-one would sensibly argue that we are as good as we were at the start of Wenger's time with us. What people have argued for much of the last 10 years is that we are "in decline". That just isn't bourne out by the facts. It was you who asked me "draw a graph based on our league position and not points tally and tell me there has been no decline.". So I did. You could be simplistic about it and draw a line from 1998 when we finished 1st and last season when we finished 5th and say "See? There has been consistent decline". But that doesn't reflect the reality of what has happened. It would be equally dishonest to draw a line between 1998 and 2016 and say "See? We've only slipped from 1st to 2nd"

The reality is this:
From 1998 to 2004 we finished either 1st or 2nd every year. If anything our quality improved over those years.
Then there was 2 years of serious decline.
Since then we've finished either 3rd or 4th every year. The points tally, the league position, the points off the top. There has been no consistent gradual decline in any of those things since then.

If you disagree with that then I'd be interested to hear on what basis.

The quality of football has declined certainly and we are in danger of slipping down another level but it's too early to tell whether last year's 5th place was a blip or the sign of things to come.

This is where it gets ridiculous. You set the parameters of the argument and choose to focus on a date range I never mentioned or even originally referred to. You say there has been a massive decline compared to our earlier years in the above post but omit that from discussion in previous posts and somehow still conclude there has been no decline because you’re sticking to this well-defined date range that excludes where we have seriously dropped off.

Let me show you what I’m referring to when looking at another decline since we can both can agree that we’ve dropped off from the title challenging days. This is about what we’ve seen in recent seasons and I’ll give some context.

2016 – 2nd - 71 points
2017 – 5th – 75 points
2018 - ??

It’s worth noting that you’re not speaking to someone that has predicted we’d drop out of the top 4 each year. In fact, if you remember correctly, in 2013 when we signed the new sponsorship deals and Fergie retired. I argued with you and few others that this was our window of opportunity to win the title. Remember that debate? All of our rivals around us were unstable and going through transitions themselves whilst we looked the most stable and if we had bought correctly etc., we could have won the title. We could have capitalised off the chaos but we lost our footing . Two seasons later, Leicester showed us how to capitalise off chaos and won the tile whilst our rivals were going through another phase of turmoil.

We’ve gone from 2nd to finishing 5th last season. That’s a decline. Don’t dress it up as a blip. I’d go as far to say our 2nd place finish was a blip because we had a season where our rivals were at their absolute worse and it’s unlikely we’ll ever see a season like that again. With teams around us getting better, what if the usual 70 odd points isn’t enough to get us Top 4? By standing still we get left behind. It’s as simple as that and that’s without me even getting into the whole tactical side of the things and the repeated errors we see from the club and manager.

[GP]

I think the problem is that the rot is so slow that it will convince people it’s not happening

Since 2009, not been able to go through a league season losing less than 7 games
Since 2015, despite 15 attempts we haven’t been able to register an away victory at a top six side
Between 2011 and 2017, no matter who we were drawn with we couldn’t get into the 1/4 finals of the champions league
Haven’t won more than 14 out of 19 home games since 2010
Cannot challenge for the league without spectacular collapse February/March time since we last won it

Le boiled frog

[Cripps]

This is where it gets ridiculous. You set the parameters of the argument and choose to focus on a date range I never mentioned or even originally referred to. You say there has been a massive decline compared to our earlier years in the above post but omit that from discussion in previous posts and somehow still conclude there has been no decline because you’re sticking to this well-defined date range that excludes where we have seriously dropped off.

Let me show you what I’m referring to when looking at another decline since we can both can agree that we’ve dropped off from the title challenging days. This is about what we’ve seen in recent seasons and I’ll give some context.

2016 – 2nd - 71 points
2017 – 5th – 75 points
2018 - ??

It’s worth noting that you’re not speaking to someone that has predicted we’d drop out of the top 4 each year. In fact, if you remember correctly, in 2013 when we signed the new sponsorship deals and Fergie retired. I argued with you and few others that this was our window of opportunity to win the title. Remember that debate? All of our rivals around us were unstable and going through transitions themselves whilst we looked the most stable and if we had bought correctly etc., we could have won the title. We could have capitalised off the chaos but we lost our footing . Two seasons later, Leicester showed us how to capitalise off chaos and won the tile whilst our rivals were going through another phase of turmoil.

We’ve gone from 2nd to finishing 5th last season. That’s a decline. Don’t dress it up as a blip. I’d go as far to say our 2nd place finish was a blip because we had a season where our rivals were at their absolute worse and it’s unlikely we’ll ever see a season like that again. With teams around us getting better, what if the usual 70 odd points isn’t enough to get us Top 4? By standing still we get left behind. It’s as simple as that and that’s without me even getting into the whole tactical side of the things and the repeated errors we see from the club and manager.

:lol: PnG you've really got to stop putting Lettuce in his place like that. Will he be able to come back from this? Doubt it. He'll probably give it a go though in true AKB spirit.

Lettuce :rose:

[Niall_Quinn]

I think the problem is that the rot is so slow that it will convince people it’s not happening

Since 2009, not been able to go through a league season losing less than 7 games
Since 2015, despite 15 attempts we haven’t been able to register an away victory at a top six side
Between 2011 and 2017, no matter who we were drawn with we couldn’t get into the 1/4 finals of the champions league
Haven’t won more than 14 out of 19 home games since 2010
Cannot challenge for the league without spectacular collapse February/March time since we last won it

You're looking at the wrong metrics. We are consistently outperforming our major rivals.

Of course he didn't specify who our major rivals are. I think we are supposed to assume that bit.

[Letters]

This is where it gets ridiculous. You set the parameters of the argument and choose to focus on a date range I never mentioned or even originally referred to.
I've given my analysis of how I see things overall in Wenger's time with us. Roughly 3 phases. 1997-2004 we were in the top 2. And the 2004 side was way better than the 1998 one.
Then there was 2 years of rapid decline to 2006 where from the dizzy heights of 2004's Invincibles we were just barely hanging in the top 4.
Since then it has been pretty stagnant although I do agree with HCZ about slow rot which if we lose Ozil and Sanchez this summer could finally see the whole house fall down.

If you're arguing that we've declined since the glory years then, well, duh! No-one would dispute that, I certainly never have.


Let me show you what I’m referring to when looking at another decline since we can both can agree that we’ve dropped off from the title challenging days. This is about what we’ve seen in recent seasons and I’ll give some context.

2016 – 2nd - 71 points
2017 – 5th – 75 points
2018 - ??
If your argument is that we are in another period of decline then my stance on that is "maybe". But the '??' means it's impossible to tell right now. No-one would sensibly claim that the years from 2014-2016 where we 'charged' from 4th to 3rd to 2nd were ones of progress. A drop from 2nd-5th could be the start of a decline and we're not exactly setting the world alight this year but we're well in touch with the top 4 so it remains to be seen how this season will pan out.


It’s worth noting that you’re not speaking to someone that has predicted we’d drop out of the top 4 each year.

Then I don't know what our quarrel is. My argument is against those people who have been saying that we've been in decline for the last 10 years. The facts don't bear that out.
Whether we're in decline now...that is certainly plausible but I'd suggest the data isn't there to state that definitively yet.
I'm not "dressing it up" as a blip, we simply can't tell whether it was a blip until this season finishes and we know where we ended up. This season so far is not exactly encouraging though.


By standing still we get left behind. It’s as simple as that and that’s without me even getting into the whole tactical side of the things and the repeated errors we see from the club and manager.

Well, I agree with that. And the real decline has been in terms of how enjoyable it is watching our games. Which is part of why I don't.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Durability is another factor

In the last two title winning seasons, we conceded the first goal in a game 15 times from 76 games and of those 15 games we only went on to lose one of those (home to Leeds 2-1)

And in fact went on to win 9 of those fifteen games - which is a 60% turnaround rate

And compare that to the last five years where if we concede the first goal in a game there is only a 20% chance of a turn around.

[Niall_Quinn]

My argument is against those people who have been saying that we've been in decline for the last 10 years. The facts don't bear that out.

Your interpretation of the facts doesn't bear it out, whereas everyone else's does. If GW was a democracy there would be no dispute, the decline would be established. However, it's a fascist dictatorship run by abusive tyrants. Therefore, the stagnation propaganda survives despite the evidence. Instead of this injustice being overturned and the truth unchained, we get Christmas smilies. How people can tolerate this is a complete mystery to me.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Your interpretation of the facts doesn't bear it out, whereas everyone else's does. If GW was a democracy there would be no dispute, the decline would be established. However, it's a fascist dictatorship run by abusive tyrants. Therefore, the stagnation propaganda survives despite the evidence. Instead of this injustice being overturned and the truth unchained, we get Christmas smilies. How people can tolerate this is a complete mystery to me.

Do you feel ever that you can’t express your views on here?

You don’t particularly seem constrained

The only objection I take to the moderators is when they’ve deleted the personal abuse I sent to Vieira and vice versa. I enjoyed that.

[Niall_Quinn]

Durability is another factor

In the last two title winning seasons, we conceded the first goal in a game 15 times from 76 games and of those 15 games we only went on to lose one of those (home to Leeds 2-1)

And in fact went on to win 9 of those fifteen games - which is a 60% turnaround rate

And compare that to the last five years where if we concede the first goal in a game there is only a 20% chance of a turn around.

Tbf, we only start playing in the last 10 minutes. If we extrapolate to the whole 90 it shows the true turnaround rate to be 180%, which is considerably better than anyone else in the league. More evidence to suggest we our outperforming our rivals.

[Niall_Quinn]

Do you feel ever that you can’t express your views on here?

You don’t particularly seem constrained

The only objection I take to the moderators is when they’ve deleted the personal abuse I sent to Vieira and vice versa. I enjoyed that.

They've banned most of my accounts now.

[Cripps]

My favourite part is where he uses the term 'slow rot' because he knows he can't use the word decline :lol:

[Power n Glory]

I've given my analysis of how I see things overall in Wenger's time with us. Roughly 3 phases. 1997-2004 we were in the top 2. And the 2004 side was way better than the 1998 one.
Then there was 2 years of rapid decline to 2006 where from the dizzy heights of 2004's Invincibles we were just barely hanging in the top 4.
Since then it has been pretty stagnant although I do agree with HCZ about slow rot which if we lose Ozil and Sanchez this summer could finally see the whole house fall down.

If you're arguing that we've declined since the glory years then, well, duh! No-one would dispute that, I certainly never have.


If your argument is that we are in another period of decline then my stance on that is "maybe". But the '??' means it's impossible to tell right now. No-one would sensibly claim that the years from 2014-2016 where we 'charged' from 4th to 3rd to 2nd were ones of progress. A drop from 2nd-5th could be the start of a decline and we're not exactly setting the world alight this year but we're well in touch with the top 4 so it remains to be seen how this season will pan out.



Then I don't know what our quarrel is. My argument is against those people who have been saying that we've been in decline for the last 10 years. The facts don't bear that out.
Whether we're in decline now...that is certainly plausible but I'd suggest the data isn't there to state that definitively yet.
I'm not "dressing it up" as a blip, we simply can't tell whether it was a blip until this season finishes and we know where we ended up. This season so far is not exactly encouraging though.



Well, I agree with that. And the real decline has been in terms of how enjoyable it is watching our games. Which is part of why I don't.

Hey, numbers man - how can last season be a blip if we finished 5th but on 75 points? Isn't that a sign that the tide is rising and the season prior to that was a blip because we finished 2nd with 71 points?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

My favourite part is where he uses the term 'slow rot' because he knows he can't use the word decline :lol:

That’s me who used the term slow rot, because I think it’s more an appropriate description than decline

It’s not that we aren’t declining.

[Cripps]

That’s me who used the term slow rot

Yes and he agrees with it.

Which essentially means he agrees we've declined.

:rose:

[Power n Glory]

That’s me who used the term slow rot, because I think it’s more an appropriate description than decline

It’s not that we aren’t declining.

Typical of Letters. The car has to hit the wall for him to notice something is wrong despite being told on numerous occasions the driver has fell asleep.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The whole argument is quibbling over terms anyway.

You’d have to ask him yourself but I doubt he’d deny that regardless of how it’s labelled fans are being forced to eat a giant shit sandwich.

The whole club seems to be a self aware Truman show, set up for the sole benefit of one person who unlike Truman is aware of the truth but fights to escape reality from inside the bubble.

I think at one time he did care about the fans, but just thinks they are ungrateful and thinks his service to the club gives him the lifetime pass of self indulgence and no one at the club has the clout or inclination to divest him of this notion

[Niall_Quinn]

Typical of Letters. The car has to hit the wall for him to notice something is wrong despite being told on numerous occasions the driver has fell asleep.

If only he would fall asleep. If he started sleeping in on weekdays and took the weekends off we'd see an instant improvement.

Meanwhile, another debate on our "progress." No doubt GW is years ahead, fans and pundits are starting to talk about what was obvious here years ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th1Ek9MN1cs

[Letters]

Hey, numbers man - how can last season be a blip if we finished 5th but on 75 points? Isn't that a sign that the tide is rising and the season prior to that was a blip because we finished 2nd with 71 points?

I don't know if it was a blip because I don't know what will be required to finish top 4 this year or where we will finish. That changes from year to year too. The last 4 years it's been:

76 (75)
66 (66)
70 (64)
79 (72)

Number in brackets the team who finished 5th. There's no clear pattern there.
There are indications we could be in another period of decline right now but comparing one season to the next is not enough in itself to know for sure, you need a more sustained period to determine that.

[Letters]

The whole argument is quibbling over terms anyway.
Pretty much all we have left tbf.

[Letters]

However, it's a fascist dictatorship run by abusive tyrants.

:cool:


I think that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me :hug:

[Cripps]

If only he would fall asleep. If he started sleeping in on weekdays and took the weekends off we'd see an instant improvement.

Meanwhile, another debate on our "progress." No doubt GW is years ahead, fans and pundits are starting to talk about what was obvious here years ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th1Ek9MN1cs

We did warn them :(

Hate being right :(

[Cripps]

The whole argument is quibbling over terms anyway.

You’d have to ask him yourself but I doubt he’d deny that regardless of how it’s labelled fans are being forced to eat a giant shit sandwich.

The whole club seems to be a self aware Truman show, set up for the sole benefit of one person who unlike Truman is aware of the truth but fights to escape reality from inside the bubble.

I think at one time he did care about the fans, but just thinks they are ungrateful and thinks his service to the club gives him the lifetime pass of self indulgence and no one at the club has the clout or inclination to divest him of this notion

Or maybe it's because he can't admit defeat and trying to save face?

:rose:

[Power n Glory]

If only he would fall asleep. If he started sleeping in on weekdays and took the weekends off we'd see an instant improvement.

Meanwhile, another debate on our "progress." No doubt GW is years ahead, fans and pundits are starting to talk about what was obvious here years ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th1Ek9MN1cs

Just listening to it. I'm shocked really. They discuss these issues like it's the first time they've seen this problem. We've been struggling to breakdown teams for years. Our wingers have never taken it wide, all of our players play it safe and refuse to take a man on (Alexis excluded). The story of Bellerin is all too familiar. Ox and Theo had the same problem when trying to attack the wing.

Not surprised that fans have grown tired of it all and just accepting it. First time I've listened to Arsenal Fan TV in months. I've stopped listening to the podcasts...god knows why I still post on GW.

[Letters]

god knows why I still post on GW.
I thought it was because you enjoyed the sense of balance and reason I bring to debates? No? :unsure:

More seriously though, there isn't much to talk about right now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It tends to to and fro

Last season we scored 37 goals away from home, which is pretty much in line with how many goals we scored away from home in league winning seasons. After 9 games this season we’ve already failed to find the net in more games than we did the whole of last season.

Don’t get me wrong the 37 goals stat is quite misleading in the sense that its padded by four goals scored against Hull, Sunderland and Stoke and 5 goals against West Ham.

In terms of our inability to break teams down its far more like the 05/06 season where we ended up scoring 20 away from home all season.

And in fact our away form in 2017, is in fact completely the same as our away form for that season won 6 Drawn 4 and Lost 9 (that was called a transitional season :haha:)

It’s not so much saying things haven’t been shit for a long time, it’s more that at times it can be shit in different ways. We either can score goals but can’t defend, can defend but can’t score goals or at the moment can’t do either.

[Cripps]

First time I've listened to Arsenal Fan TV in months. I've stopped listening to the podcasts...god knows why I still post on GW.

Because I brought it back to life

Me :bow:

[Niall_Quinn]

Just listening to it. I'm shocked really. They discuss these issues like it's the first time they've seen this problem. We've been struggling to breakdown teams for years. Our wingers have never taken it wide, all of our players play it safe and refuse to take a man on (Alexis excluded). The story of Bellerin is all too familiar. Ox and Theo had the same problem when trying to attack the wing.

Not surprised that fans have grown tired of it all and just accepting it. First time I've listened to Arsenal Fan TV in months. I've stopped listening to the podcasts...god knows why I still post on GW.

For the same reason real fans (EDIT: as opposed to the tourists) still go to the games, I suppose. A longstanding sense of belonging and a deep nostalgia. Wenger has locked everything to do with Arsenal in an endless shit loop. The club, the team, the transfer windows, the TV and radio shows, twatter, forums, GW. Destined to circle in time for all eternity, or until Wenger leaves. Whichever happens sooner.

[Niall_Quinn]

It tends to to and fro

Last season we scored 37 goals away from home, which is pretty much in line with how many goals we scored away from home in league winning seasons. After 9 games this season we’ve already failed to find the net in more games than we did the whole of last season.

Don’t get me wrong the 37 goals stat is quite misleading in the sense that its padded by four goals scored against Hull, Sunderland and Stoke and 5 goals against West Ham.

In terms of our inability to break teams down its far more like the 05/06 season where we ended up scoring 20 away from home all season.

And in fact our away form in 2017, is in fact completely the same as our away form for that season won 6 Drawn 4 and Lost 9 (that was called a transitional season :haha:)

It’s not so much saying things haven’t been shit for a long time, it’s more that at times it can be shit in different ways. We either can score goals but can’t defend, can defend but can’t score goals or at the moment can’t do either.

Sounds like whackamole. The coaches sort out the defence and move on to the midfield. Wenger nips in behind and fucks the defence again. Whackawenker.

[Power n Glory]

If only he would fall asleep. If he started sleeping in on weekdays and took the weekends off we'd see an instant improvement.

Meanwhile, another debate on our "progress." No doubt GW is years ahead, fans and pundits are starting to talk about what was obvious here years ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th1Ek9MN1cs

:lol: The Xhaka and Ozil debates reminds me of what we've had on here.

[Cripps]

For the same reason real fans (EDIT: as opposed to the tourists) still go to the games, I suppose. A longstanding sense of belonging and a deep nostalgia. Wenger has locked everything to do with Arsenal in an endless shit loop. The club, the team, the transfer windows, the TV and radio shows, twatter, forums, GW. Destined to circle in time for all eternity, or until Wenger leaves. Whichever happens sooner.

Can't wait until we discuss all of this again in Newcastle's post match thread.

[Niall_Quinn]

Can't wait until we discuss all of this again in Newcastle's post match thread.

I think we had a - Match Reaction, All Remaining Games - thread by about game 20 last season.

[Cripps]

I had a burrito for lunch today :sick: what horrible things they are. Bread, rice and beans mixed together... Weird textures and flavours :sick:

[Letters]

I had Thai food.
Thai food :bow:

[Cripps]

Thai massages :bow:

[Letters]

I like happy finishes.
To our season

:rimshot:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Sounds like whackamole. The coaches sort out the defence and move on to the midfield. Wenger nips in behind and fucks the defence again. Whackawenker.

Absolutely spot on

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I had a burrito for lunch today :sick: what horrible things they are. Bread, rice and beans mixed together... Weird textures and flavours :sick:

I’m confused. Did you Not know what was in a burrito before you ate it?

[Niall_Quinn]

I’m confused. Did you Not know what was in a burrito before you ate it?

Wait until he tries a shit sandwich.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wait until he tries a shit sandwich.

Well we all know what that tastes like

[Letters]

Well we all know what that tastes like

Today's shit sandwiches are just as good/bad as those in 2006 :sulk:

[Cripps]

I’m confused. Did you Not know what was in a burrito before you ate it?

I did but the way everyone bangs on about it I expected something scintillating. It was shite. Bit like your face lolz.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I did but the way everyone bangs on about it I expected something scintillating. It was shite. Bit like your face lolz.

Listen just because you’re probably going to spend most of tomorrow clutching onto the toilet seat like the lawyer in Jurassic Park, there’s no need for lazy insults

[Cripps]

:lol:

[Cripps]

Shyla stylez and August Ames both dead :rose:

Two that never put in a bad performance:bow:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Shyla stylez and August Ames both dead :rose:

Two that never put in a bad performance:bow:

The second one was partly over a social media Spat. Someone accused her of being a bigot because she didn’t want to bang a dude who did gay porn.....Not exactly unreasonable to say “sorry just don’t want AIDS thanks”. But she was accused of being a homophobe and rumours are that one of them told her to kill herself. I doubt this is all there is to it, but probably sent her over the edge.

[Cripps]

I read a quote from one of her friends: "we get called all sorts of names. People should show us respect" :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

I haven't even started drinking yet.

What are we talking about again?

[Cripps]

Porn.

[Niall_Quinn]

I see.

So we've given up talking about footie?

About time.

[Cripps]

Brazzersweb :bow:

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

You are right Vieira....Bread, rice and beans really is an unholy perverse union.

Almost as bad as the Northerners mixing chips, rice and gravy.

[Globalgunner]

I read a quote from one of her friends: "we get called all sorts of names. People should show us respect" :lol:

People should: Humans arent supposed to be able to do, some of the stuff those ladies can. BTW: I dont watch porn, its just what ive heard. Ahem!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don’t know why people make a big deal out of porn

In fact I think if anyone on this group says they’ve never watched porn they are a liar.

[Globalgunner]

I don’t know why people make a big deal out of porn

In fact I think if anyone on this group says they’ve never watched porn they are a liar..

No1 searched item on the internet, but I refuse to watch.Ahem!

Can we go back to the footie now pls.