Where has Wenger gone wrong?

[IBK]

It's become obvious that Wenger is - to all real intents and purposes - over. There has been plenty of disappointment, anger and bile about where he has led the club - most stemming, I think from the seemingly endless groundhog days where the same mistakes are played out endlessly - and our drift away from being a competetive team.

Now that the disappointment of Sunday, and the last few weeks is subsiding, however, I am interested in peoples' serious analysis of why things have reached this point under AW. I think that 'he is shit'; 'complacent' or 'cares more about the money than winning trophies' are, on serious reflection, over simplistic and inaccurate summaries of a once great manager. I think even that pointing to lack of funds after building the stadium; not being able to compete with the new powers in English football or deficiencies of individual players do not tell an accurate story.

Instead, being a glutton for Arsenal related punishment and listening to Arsecast Extra on Arseblog today, I think that Andrew and James have nailed it. I think I agree with them that Wenger's problem is that football has simply moved past the era where his methods worked. I don't think the manager is doing anything different or trying any less. I think that the reason is - as most effective explanations are - a simple one. Footballers these days - owing to the way in which they are developed and the sheer attention to detail that they are exposed to both tactically and technically - need constant direction and guidance in how to approach, and play games. The demands of the game; the riches available and the technological advances that have been made mean that every angle, every tiny potential for an edge have been exploited. This means that players' individual abilities are not enough. They need to be put in a position where their abilities are maximised - and this means that coaches and managers must micro manage them - both in terms of the players' own skill sets and the stregths and weaknesses of the opposition. Sure, there are still individuals - usually those experienced players at the very top - who have the vision to do this themselves to an extent - our own Sanchez was an example - but even they do not generally have the ability to manage those around them on the pitch.

Now contrast this reality with Wenger's approach to football management. We don't really know that much for certain about how managers and coaches operate, but what we DO know about wenger is that a) he does not 'micro manage' in this way; b) he does not pay huge attention to the way the opposition sets up and plays; and c) his strenths are not tactical. I am not that convinced that the reason his early teams worked so well was because the players were so much more talented than those he has today. In fact, today's players may be even more gifted technically. I think that it was becuse spotting talent, and then getting players to go out and express themselves on the pitch worked in a different era - where other teams and managers were not so proficient in micro management and tactical awareness and analysis.

We have been debating the strenghts and weaknesses of players on other threads. Mustafi and Xhaka being the most recent. What many of our players have in common is that they operated more effetively in other teams and seem to regress after some time at Arsenal. Other players improve after leaving our team. I think that the reason that our players look naive and clueless, and seemingly unable to correct mistakes made on the pitch is not down to their lack of individual ability - it is because (in common with most other players) they are not getting the assistance and instruction that they need to flourish.

So I am not sure that Wenger necessarily deserves the opprobrium that he is receiving for his (lack of) coaching/managerial skills. I think that his skill set is simply not sufficient to achieve consistent success in today's game. I don't think he has 'gone wrong' in his management. Where he has gone wrong is that the same dogged self belief that saw him as such a successful innovator in his early years has blinded him to the methods necessary to succeed today, and his misplaced 'loyalty' to his club and his contract is now dragging us back.

What are your thoughts?

[Dein-machine]

I agree with most of what you say - none of it is in doubt now as the fraud that Wenger has become is clear to see to the whole footballing world apart from our board of directors.

I disagree with you on the quality of our players. The Invincibles were a team of "footballing" brains, especially as an attacking force where this is most needed. We never replaced the likes of Henry, Bergkamp, Pires & Llundberg in a clever footablling sense. Who do we have now who makes the right decision in the final 3rd of the pitch 70-80% of the time - possibly only Ozil. These guys made the right decisions most of the time. How did we ever think that wide players without a clue what to do when in the final 3rd like Walcott & Chamberlain were ever going to deliver what we had with Pires & Freddy.

In my opinion, Wenger's fall from grace was down to 2 things - Barcelona & Abamovich.
Due to his ego, he wasnt happy with the plaudits that Barca had worldwide for their wonderful football. He tried to emulate this by replacing the power & drive needed in the Premier League ( like what we had with Viera & Petite ) with the likes of Fabregas & Denilson. He bought small defenders who supposedly could pass well but unfortunately were far too weak for the combative premier league. He tried to be Barca but naive to the climate we play in & very naive with the type of player he bought in to do so - we never unfortunately bought anyone with the class of a Messi, Xavi or Iniesta, so it was never going to work.
On top of this, at roughly the same time, Mr Abramovich decided to get of of Russia with his ill gained billions & then subsequently ruin the game of football. The thought of buying your way to glory was something Wenger despised & I totally agree with him but unfortunately, if you want to compete you cannot hide behind the "poor us" story & be content instead to be a top 4 team that returns large profits to your owners.
With all the money they had - they could only have 11 players on the pitch. When you think of the Chelsea legends of these times, you probably come up with Terry, Lampard & Drogba - not really top world class players in my opinion. With the finances we had available we could & should have bought players to compete. The pressure that Abramovich created on other teams meant that they had to find better managers, better players etc - this is where we got left behind because we had a manager still basking in former glories & hell bent of proving that his way was the best way. It certainly is for share holders but not for us fans.

[Cripps]

Do we really need another thread on this? It's been discussed hundreds of times.

[IBK]

Do we really need another thread on this? It's been discussed hundreds of times.

As have most of the things discussed on here.

[HCZ]

This doesn’t really warrant much discussion

It’s a very rare thing a manager can last a long time at a club and be consistently successful. Ferguson was an outlier and a lot of his success was invested in knowing what he didn’t know as well as what he did know, and deferring those things to other people

In many respects I think Wenger used to be the same, he knew he wasn’t a tactical genius, he knew defensive coaching wasn’t his strong suit. He knew he wasn’t a great vociferous leader....so to a degree he delegates to those who were. Whenever there was shouting in the dressing room it was done by Pat Rice or Tony Adams. Or the players were themselves able to lead between each other. It is claimed that Patrick Vieira as captain used to tell Sol Campbell to shout at him and give him both barrels when the defence wasn’t getting enough protection.

And whilst I’m not singling out Fabregas, he was really where it started to go wrong. More because Wenger chased that type of technically gifted passer at the expense of everything else, because he wanted to emulate the Barcelona style.

And that’s why for years we had teams that were good on the ball but couldn’t deal with physical opponents

And now there’s just nothing, no philosophy no nothing. We have a duct taped patchwork team without any style or substance or character.

[Özim]

IMO it was a case of right place, right time for Wenger, his record before he arrived was nothing to ride home about.

When he arrived, he had knowledge of the French market, in a period the golden generation of French players were coming through, so he could cherry pick the best players, couple that with inherting arguably the best defence to ever come out of English football in Dixon, Winterburn, Adams, Keown, Bould and Seaman and one of the best players ever Bergkamp as well as players like Parlour and of course right.

He built a team using his knowledge of French football and those top class players who with drive, hunger and an incredible desire to succeed, yes he did change diets and extend their careers but essentially he inherited those qualities, adding to that players of the class of Overmars (someone people knew was top class). He then set about bringing in a 2nd group of players who very much learnt that winning mentality from the likes of Adams and co, he picked up Campbell on a free which also helped and again used his knowledge of the French market to pick up players such as Lauren and Henry (and of course Pires though his quality was well known as Real were also after him).

His limitations as a manager were always there, but the leaders on the field compensated for those glaring weaknesses, essentially making AW seem a better manager than he was.

It was all going perfectly until he overestimated his own management ability by trying to turn us into a mini Barcelona, at the same time abandoning all the principles that made the team successful, desire, leadership, power, pace, what's worse is the clearout was completed so quickly none of the younger players were able to learn from the experienced players, who could teach them so much, including giving them a drive to succeed.

The rest is history, without the leadership and quality on the field to do his job for him, the collapses began, every season we watched as his teams collapsed like a house of cards in a hurricane, yet he continued with his fantasy about building a team from some youth project he was obssessed with, at no point returning to the principles that brought success, luckily for him he had a loyal fanbase which believed he could do no wrong and thought he Arsenal was nothng without him.

In that time he became untouchable and started to believe the hype, in a way the fans created the monster that is Arsenal today with blind support for a guy with clearly limited management ability and that's the truth IMO, he's not changed, it's just that his team don't have the qualities to mask his limitations anymore and he doesn't see that, which is exactly what leads me to think the his successes were more about right place right time than anything else.

[IBK]

I agree with most of what you say - none of it is in doubt now as the fraud that Wenger has become is clear to see to the whole footballing world apart from our board of directors.

I disagree with you on the quality of our players. The Invincibles were a team of "footballing" brains, especially as an attacking force where this is most needed. We never replaced the likes of Henry, Bergkamp, Pires & Llundberg in a clever footablling sense. Who do we have now who makes the right decision in the final 3rd of the pitch 70-80% of the time - possibly only Ozil. These guys made the right decisions most of the time. How did we ever think that wide players without a clue what to do when in the final 3rd like Walcott & Chamberlain were ever going to deliver what we had with Pires & Freddy.

In my opinion, Wenger's fall from grace was down to 2 things - Barcelona & Abamovich.
Due to his ego, he wasnt happy with the plaudits that Barca had worldwide for their wonderful football. He tried to emulate this by replacing the power & drive needed in the Premier League ( like what we had with Viera & Petite ) with the likes of Fabregas & Denilson. He bought small defenders who supposedly could pass well but unfortunately were far too weak for the combative premier league. He tried to be Barca but naive to the climate we play in & very naive with the type of player he bought in to do so - we never unfortunately bought anyone with the class of a Messi, Xavi or Iniesta, so it was never going to work.
On top of this, at roughly the same time, Mr Abramovich decided to get of of Russia with his ill gained billions & then subsequently ruin the game of football. The thought of buying your way to glory was something Wenger despised & I totally agree with him but unfortunately, if you want to compete you cannot hide behind the "poor us" story & be content instead to be a top 4 team that returns large profits to your owners.
With all the money they had - they could only have 11 players on the pitch. When you think of the Chelsea legends of these times, you probably come up with Terry, Lampard & Drogba - not really top world class players in my opinion. With the finances we had available we could & should have bought players to compete. The pressure that Abramovich created on other teams meant that they had to find better managers, better players etc - this is where we got left behind because we had a manager still basking in former glories & hell bent of proving that his way was the best way. It certainly is for share holders but not for us fans.

Re the quality of our players - I get what you say in terms of footballing brains but there are a few points to make here. Pires himself has said that Wenger's current squad are more technically gifted than the one he played in. I agree that they do not seem to have the footballing brains of the Invincibles. And this is the subtle point that I think is getting lost. The likes of Bergkamp, Pires and Ljungberg were all part of a different era when players in general tended to learn responsibility for managing a game on the pitch. Wenger in a sense started the technical, analytical approach to elements of the game, and most of the top managers these days have extended this into detailed tactics and gameplans that leave less room for individual player decisions. I think that generally speaking, all players have lost the ability to manage themselves on the pitch, Not just ours.

Put another way - would the current Citeh team be performing in the same way after a year under Wenger? I think not. They would benefit from what they have been taught by Guardiola - but as I say, we have had many players who have arrived with the benefit of former instruction, then tailed off under Wenger. On the other hand - I think Guardiola or Pochettino would make half our team into genuine top class performers.

IMO you could take any of the top 6 teams, leave them without detailed managerial input and see much the same as we are seeing under Wenger. Sure- there will be exceptions with some of the top players who do have footballing brains and vision. But as we saw with Sanchez this doesn't mean that they can affect the overall decision making of the team.

I do agree that our demise is not a question of money, though. It is our manager being left behind as football moves on.

[IBK]

IMO it was a case of right place, right time for Wenger, his record before he arrived was nothing to ride home about.

When he arrived, he had knowledge of the French market, in a period the golden generation of French players were coming through, so he could cherry pick the best players, couple that with inherting arguably the best defence to ever come out of English football in Dixon, Winterburn, Adams, Keown, Bould and Seaman and one of the best players ever Bergkamp as well as players like Parlour and of course right.

He built a team using his knowledge of French football and those top class players who with drive, hunger and an incredible desire to succeed, yes he did change diets and extend their careers but essentially he inherited those qualities, adding to that players of the class of Overmars (someone people knew was top class). He then set about bringing in a 2nd group of players who very much learnt that winning mentality from the likes of Adams and co, he picked up Campbell on a free which also helped and again used his knowledge of the French market to pick up players such as Lauren and Henry (and of course Pires though his quality was well known as Real were also after him).

His limitations as a manager were always there, but the
leaders on the field compensated for those glaring weaknesses, essentially making AW seem a better manager than he was.

It was all going perfectly until he overestimated his own management ability by trying to turn us into a mini Barcelona, at the same time abandoning all the principles that made the team successful, desire, leadership, power, pace, what's worse is the clearout was completed so quickly none of the younger players were able to learn from the experienced players, who could teach them so much, including giving them a drive to succeed.

The rest is history, without the leadership and quality on the field to do his job for him, the collapses began, every season we watched as his teams collapsed like a house of cards in a hurricane, yet he continued with his fantasy about building a team from some youth project he was obssessed with, at no point returning to the principles that brought success, luckily for him he had a loyal fanbase which believed he could do no wrong and thought he Arsenal was nothng without him.

In that time he became untouchable and started to believe the hype, in a way the fans created the monster that is Arsenal today with blind support for a guy with clearly limited management ability and that's the truth IMO, he's not changed, it's just that his team don't have the qualities to mask his limitations anymore and he doesn't see that, which is exactly what leads me to think the his successes were more about right place right time than anything else.

Agreed re leaders on the field compensating for AW's 'laissez faire' approach. But are there really any old school leaders at the top of our game these days? Who amongst the top 6 teams is the type of vocal on field general that used to exist? I've come to believe that we could have pretty much any player you like playing for AW and it wouldn't make much difference to the cohesion of our team.

[Marc Overmars]

Agreed re leaders on the field compensating for AW's 'laissez faire' approach. But are there really any old school leaders at the top of our game these days? Who amongst the top 6 teams is the type of vocal on field general that used to exist? I've come to believe that we could have pretty much any player you like playing for AW and it wouldn't make much difference to the cohesion of our team.

No you don’t really get those types anymore. The game has moved on and the player it breeds now is different. They’re overpaid, pampered and frankly completely removed from reality. They need specific coaching, if you just let them play off their own back you’ll never get anywhere because they haven’t been brought up to work for what they’ve got.

[HCZ]

The problem I have and the fear I have is, you see lots of ex players who are now journalists and pundits telling you what’s going on. The laxity, the casual and relaxed atmosphere....yes this is part of Wengers style. But the club that has allowed this will still be there when he’s gone.

We have to hope that we have a self motivated manager will just won’t allow this kind of atmosphere anymore or that the structure being put in place by Gazidis will deal with it

I fear the club is infected with complacency from top to bottom

[Globalgunner]

This doesn’t really warrant much discussion

It’s a very rare thing a manager can last a long time at a club and be consistently successful. Ferguson was an outlier and a lot of his success was invested in knowing what he didn’t know as well as what he did know, and deferring those things to other people

In many respects I think Wenger used to be the same, he knew he wasn’t a tactical genius, he knew defensive coaching wasn’t his strong suit. He knew he wasn’t a great vociferous leader....so to a degree he delegates to those who were. Whenever there was shouting in the dressing room it was done by Pat Rice or Tony Adams. Or the players were themselves able to lead between each other. It is claimed that Patrick Vieira as captain used to tell Sol Campbell to shout at him and give him both barrels when the defence wasn’t getting enough protection.

And whilst I’m not singling out Fabregas, he was really where it started to go wrong. More because Wenger chased that type of technically gifted passer at the expense of everything else, because he wanted to emulate the Barcelona style.

And that’s why for years we had teams that were good on the ball but couldn’t deal with physical opponents

And now there’s just nothing, no philosophy no nothing. We have a duct taped patchwork team without any style or substance or character.

Nothing about Wengers current state of megalomania shows that he knows anything of the sort. His delusion is in thinking the success of the invincibles was mainly down to him. He thinks he taught Bergkamp how to pick a pass from midfield. How Henry and Pires could dovetail between each other. How Vieira instinctively knew when to stay and when to march imperiously forward to join the attack. How Keown, Campbell and Adams knew to kill an attack when it was still building up outside the box rather than start panicking when the striker was 3 yards from goal.

These things were not taught by him. The players knew what to do and did it from a decade of experience. Adams said they used to laugh at Wengers pep talks. Same with his lackadaisical back room staff. Boro Primorac telling Adams how to defend?. His great mistake is and always was ego. He needs the adulation, even from just looking in a mirror. Once that squad which he couldnt browbeat was disbanded. He bought a new set of players, subject to his authority. players who wouldnt question his methods. Maybe because they too bought into the mystic illusion of Wenger the great. They soon found however that his methods didnt work. If you followed them you were bound to fail...and fail they did. the good ones left and Wenger built again...and again..and again. Still Wenger believes.

Shit manager. Always was.

[Niall_Quinn]

Do we really need another thread on this? It's been discussed hundreds of times.

It's a discussion forum. And Arsenal fans are all at different stages of the relationship with Wenger. So these things might, legitimately, come up a million times.

As for me, I'm not as keen on Wenger as I used to be.

[Niall_Quinn]

This doesn’t really warrant much discussion

It’s a very rare thing a manager can last a long time at a club and be consistently successful. Ferguson was an outlier and a lot of his success was invested in knowing what he didn’t know as well as what he did know, and deferring those things to other people

In many respects I think Wenger used to be the same, he knew he wasn’t a tactical genius, he knew defensive coaching wasn’t his strong suit. He knew he wasn’t a great vociferous leader....so to a degree he delegates to those who were. Whenever there was shouting in the dressing room it was done by Pat Rice or Tony Adams. Or the players were themselves able to lead between each other. It is claimed that Patrick Vieira as captain used to tell Sol Campbell to shout at him and give him both barrels when the defence wasn’t getting enough protection.

And whilst I’m not singling out Fabregas, he was really where it started to go wrong. More because Wenger chased that type of technically gifted passer at the expense of everything else, because he wanted to emulate the Barcelona style.

And that’s why for years we had teams that were good on the ball but couldn’t deal with physical opponents

And now there’s just nothing, no philosophy no nothing. We have a duct taped patchwork team without any style or substance or character.

I think that's about it. When Fabregas was elevated to de facto leader of the team our game went to shit. Relatively speaking. We could still play some decent football at that point. And Fabregas was a good player, with Santi coming after him. Wenger relied heavily on these guys to pull off his utterly fucked up vision of what the PL should be, rather than what it actually is.

[Power n Glory]

Where things went wrong for Wenger.... the Premier League got better. The games quicker, teams are fitter, player quality has gone up, coaching levels have home up and now we have managers in the league with experience of winning league titles and European trophies with other European teams. We moved over to project youth and started looking for a different style of player, profile wise, but we did better in Europe with those kids that we ever could with the Invincible squad.

If you look at our CL record when we had Henry and Co, it was appalling. I can't defend it. They were never mentally or tactically prepared and we'd always struggle to break teams down in the same way we struggle now.

Too stubborn to adapt and definitely the wrong sort of manager to coach kids in this era.

[Cripps]

David Dein left.

[Niall_Quinn]

Where things went wrong for Wenger.... the Premier League got better. The games quicker, teams are fitter, player quality has gone up, coaching levels have home up and now we have managers in the league with experience of winning league titles and European trophies with other European teams. We moved over to project youth and started looking for a different style of player, profile wise, but we did better in Europe with those kids that we ever could with the Invincible squad.

If you look at our CL record when we had Henry and Co, it was appalling. I can't defend it. They were never mentally or tactically prepared and we'd always struggle to break teams down in the same way we struggle now.

Too stubborn to adapt and definitely the wrong sort of manager to coach kids in this era.

So, like a con man, he found an angle and milked it until the edge died away and everyone was in on the game? Then he realised he had no other talents. So he turned his attention to the fans, found they had this unshakable loyalty, and exploited that for all he was worth?

A scumbag, in other words? A (not so) cheap, lousy, charlatan hustler?

[Power n Glory]

So, like a con man, he found an angle and milked it until the edge died away and everyone was in on the game? Then he realised he had no other talents. So he turned his attention to the fans, found they had this unshakable loyalty, and exploited that for all he was worth?

A scumbag, in other words? A (not so) cheap, lousy, charlatan hustler?

That's the real problem here. Not being up to the task is one thing, every explanation for why he can't deliver the results he used to has some truth in it. But that's not where it has gone horribly wrong for him. The talking point should be around how he his turning the fans off from football and how we've lost our passion for the club and game. I fear there will be a strong divide between Arsenal fans for years to come and that's if they're still following the game. That's not a legacy to be proud of.

I once said that once he's gone we'll remember him more fondly but I don't think that way anymore. The funk we have been in has gone on for too long and the sheer arrogance on display and his selfish behaviour will be a hard memory to shake. I've seen players lose their legendary status and service to the club forgotten by fans for a lot less.

[HCZ]

Interesting how in all the responses to this question I’ve read it all pretty much seems like everyone has found slightly different way of saying the same thing

[HCZ]

That's the real problem here. Not being up to the task is one thing, every explanation for why he can't deliver the results he used to has some truth in it. But that's not where it has gone horribly wrong for him. The talking point should be around how he his turning the fans off from football and how we've lost our passion for the club and game. I fear there will be a strong divide between Arsenal fans for years to come and that's if they're still following the game. That's not a legacy to be proud of.

I once said that once he's gone we'll remember him more fondly but I don't think that way anymore. The funk we have been in has gone on for too long and the sheer arrogance on display and his selfish behaviour will be a hard memory to shake. I've seen players lose their legendary status and service to the club forgotten by fans for a lot less.

I guess it depends how long we are talking

In the immediate future, I think it will be difficult for many of us to think of him too fondly

And at best even in the fullness of time it will be once great manager stayed with us far too long

If the writing is on the wall for him, and he jumps before he’s pushed he will probably get his soapy tit wank farewell.

[Marc Overmars]

That's the real problem here. Not being up to the task is one thing, every explanation for why he can't deliver the results he used to has some truth in it. But that's not where it has gone horribly wrong for him. The talking point should be around how he his turning the fans off from football and how we've lost our passion for the club and game. I fear there will be a strong divide between Arsenal fans for years to come and that's if they're still following the game. That's not a legacy to be proud of.

I once said that once he's gone we'll remember him more fondly but I don't think that way anymore. The funk we have been in has gone on for too long and the sheer arrogance on display and his selfish behaviour will be a hard memory to shake. I've seen players lose their legendary status and service to the club forgotten by fans for a lot less.

Unfortuantley now there have been arguably more years of disharmony and frustration as there have been success. His legacy now includes a deeply mind fucked and divided fanbase. What you alluded to about the divided fanbase will rumble on after he’s gone. If the next manager were to get off to a poor start or struggle at any point, you just know those fans who still hold a candle for Wenger will cause a problem and the cycle will repeat itself, only this time with the in and out roles will be reversed.

[Cripps]

I guess it depends how long we are talking

In the immediate future, I think it will be difficult for many of us to think of him too fondly

And at best even in the fullness of time it will be once great manager stayed with us far too long

If the writing is on the wall for him, and he jumps before he’s pushed he will probably get his soapy tit wank farewell.

He's completely destroyed his legacy.

If he left after the first or second FA cup he would have been viewed as an untouchable legend. If he left after the third he would still have been respected and viewed as an icon in years to come.

Now? He's the biggest laughing stock in the world. There's people taking Wenger out signs to protests in Africa FFS.

[IBK]

Unfortuantley now there have been arguably more years of disharmony and frustration as there have been success. His legacy now includes a deeply mind fucked and divided fanbase. What you alluded to about the divided fanbase will rumble on after he’s gone. If the next manager were to get off to a poor start or struggle at any point, you just know those fans who still hold a candle for Wenger will cause a problem and the cycle will repeat itself, only this time with the in and out roles will be reversed.

A good angle. It's become fashionable to regard Arsenal fans as spoilt and thinking that they are entitled to success, but this isn't true at all. For years we were promised that the club was preparing to compete at the highest level, and up until about 5 years ago I think that we were patient in a way that, say, Manure fans would not have put up with. Since then, with the deliberate orchestration of AW we have been invited to inhabit a parallel universe where any excuse under the sun has been offered to explain under performance and lack of ambition on and off the pitch. If it were simply that we were cash-strapped, or that the players seemed to be giving their all but were losing to better sides, it would be one thing, but the unberable frustration has been caused by the manager's utter refusal to see, or admit where he is going wrong - or to do anything about it. Wenger has effectively traded on his legacy to garner support - and this is what has set fans so implacably against each other and eroded any vestige of patience.

[Goonermerree]

A good angle. It's become fashionable to regard Arsenal fans as spoilt and thinking that they are entitled to success, but this isn't true at all. For years we were promised that the club was preparing to compete at the highest level, and up until about 5 years ago I think that we were patient in a way that, say, Manure fans would not have put up with. Since then, with the deliberate orchestration of AW we have been invited to inhabit a parallel universe where any excuse under the sun has been offered to explain under performance and lack of ambition on and off the pitch. If it were simply that we were cash-strapped, or that the players seemed to be giving their all but were losing to better sides, it would be one thing, but the unberable frustration has been caused by the manager's utter refusal to see, or admit where he is going wrong - or to do anything about it. Wenger has effectively traded on his legacy to garner support - and this is what has set fans so implacably against each other and eroded any vestige of patience.

Agreed, when you think that we had a stadium move to compete with the best in Europe when we can't now beat mediocre teams in our own league, added to that the the fans pay the highest ticket prices for dross, I think the fans have a right to complain. Nobody thinks we have a god-given right to win everything, we just want to be a bit more competitive.

[IBK]

Agreed, when you think that we had a stadium move to compete with the best in Europe when we can't now beat mediocre teams in our own league, added to that the the fans pay the highest ticket prices for dross, I think the fans have a right to complain. Nobody thinks we have a god-given right to win everything, we just want to be a bit more competitive.

...and not to be regarded as a laughing stock....

[Marc Overmars]

A good angle. It's become fashionable to regard Arsenal fans as spoilt and thinking that they are entitled to success, but this isn't true at all. For years we were promised that the club was preparing to compete at the highest level, and up until about 5 years ago I think that we were patient in a way that, say, Manure fans would not have put up with. Since then, with the deliberate orchestration of AW we have been invited to inhabit a parallel universe where any excuse under the sun has been offered to explain under performance and lack of ambition on and off the pitch. If it were simply that we were cash-strapped, or that the players seemed to be giving their all but were losing to better sides, it would be one thing, but the unberable frustration has been caused by the manager's utter refusal to see, or admit where he is going wrong - or to do anything about it. Wenger has effectively traded on his legacy to garner support - and this is what has set fans so implacably against each other and eroded any vestige of patience.

I agree. I take huge exception to the notion of others thinking Arsenal fans are entitled. We've been the most patient, sentimental and understanding fans going. We watched on for years as our best players were stripped away and replaced with cheap imitations, all while thinking this was the price to pay for a smart, long term strategy that would see us pay off the stadium and enable us to challenge somewhere down the line. Most even believed the board were responsible for withholding money and throwing Wenger under a bus. He got away with it for years but it's only within the last 2-3 seasons he's really been exposed and he knows it.

We've had to endure more humiliating results than I care to remember, a decline in quality of football, sliding out of the CL (Wenger's last redeeming feature) and all while hearing excuse after excuse from a manager who won't accept he might be the problem because he's selfishly using Arsenal to prolong his involvement in football as he's not ready to retire, he even had the cheek to blame the fans for his and his teams humiliations and underachievement. Every single club in the world hires and fires managers on performance based merits, why do we have to be any different? Because Wenger achieved greatness 15 years ago? How is that still relevant today?

Make no mistake about it, Wenger is definitely the reason why there's so much apathy not only for the club but football in general. The obscene amounts of money in the game now is tiresome but lets not pretend we wouldn't be enjoying ourselves if we had a quality, competitive team. Which with our resources, is what we should have.

Anyone who thinks we should be sweeping all before us, they are worthy of ridicule but I have honestly never spoken to an Arsenal fan who wants anything more than just to be hopeful of competing. I don't care about Wenger, I care about Arsenal but that line is now blurred within the fanbase as some have taken it upon themselves to be offended on his behalf.

[IBK]

I agree. I take huge exception to the notion of others thinking Arsenal fans are entitled. We've been the most patient, sentimental and understanding fans going. We watched on for years as our best players were stripped away and replaced with cheap imitations, all while thinking this was the price to pay for a smart, long term strategy that would see us pay off the stadium and enable us to challenge somewhere down the line. Most even believed the board were responsible for withholding money and throwing Wenger under a bus. He got away with it for years but it's only within the last 2-3 seasons he's really been exposed and he knows it.

We've had to endure more humiliating results than I care to remember, a decline in quality of football, sliding out of the CL (Wenger's last redeeming feature) and all while hearing excuse after excuse from a manager who won't accept he might be the problem because he's selfishly using Arsenal to prolong his involvement in football as he's not ready to retire, he even had the cheek to blame the fans for his and his teams humiliations and underachievement. Every single club in the world hires and fires managers on performance based merits, why do we have to be any different? Because Wenger achieved greatness 15 years ago? How is that still relevant today?

Make no mistake about it, Wenger is definitely the reason why there's so much apathy not only for the club but football in general. The obscene amounts of money in the game now is tiresome but lets not pretend we wouldn't be enjoying ourselves if we had a quality, competitive team. Which with our resources, is what we should have.

Anyone who thinks we should be sweeping all before us, they are worthy of ridicule but I have honestly never spoken to an Arsenal fan who wants anything more than just to be hopeful of competing. I don't care about Wenger, I care about Arsenal but that line is now blurred within the fanbase as some have taken it upon themselves to be offended on his behalf.

:gp:

Until a few years ago, I was one of the people who still thought that AW might be able to compete if he was able to spend money on players. It's noticable and somewhat ironic that the manager has been exposed now, just at the time that he has done. One can't escape the feeling that the manager only resigned himself to paying top money for players in a desperate attempt to prove otherwise, rather than this demonstrating a real change in his mentality. And i may be stubborn here, but the players that he has spent big on - including those who are now being written off - were not valued highly for nothing. Like I said originally, Wenger is yesterday's man in terms of coaching and management. I don't blame him for this. I do blame him for being the only person at our football club with the power to do something about it and bow out gracefully - like SAF did - but refusing to do so.

[Özim]

I agree. I take huge exception to the notion of others thinking Arsenal fans are entitled. We've been the most patient, sentimental and understanding fans going. We watched on for years as our best players were stripped away and replaced with cheap imitations, all while thinking this was the price to pay for a smart, long term strategy that would see us pay off the stadium and enable us to challenge somewhere down the line. Most even believed the board were responsible for withholding money and throwing Wenger under a bus. He got away with it for years but it's only within the last 2-3 seasons he's really been exposed and he knows it.

We've had to endure more humiliating results than I care to remember, a decline in quality of football, sliding out of the CL (Wenger's last redeeming feature) and all while hearing excuse after excuse from a manager who won't accept he might be the problem because he's selfishly using Arsenal to prolong his involvement in football as he's not ready to retire, he even had the cheek to blame the fans for his and his teams humiliations and underachievement. Every single club in the world hires and fires managers on performance based merits, why do we have to be any different? Because Wenger achieved greatness 15 years ago? How is that still relevant today?

Make no mistake about it, Wenger is definitely the reason why there's so much apathy not only for the club but football in general. The obscene amounts of money in the game now is tiresome but lets not pretend we wouldn't be enjoying ourselves if we had a quality, competitive team. Which with our resources, is what we should have.

Anyone who thinks we should be sweeping all before us, they are worthy of ridicule but I have honestly never spoken to an Arsenal fan who wants anything more than just to be hopeful of competing. I don't care about Wenger, I care about Arsenal but that line is now blurred within the fanbase as some have taken it upon themselves to be offended on his behalf.

Completely agree with this, some people will say we have Wenger to thank for this and that, personally I don't think we've got anything to thank him for, this club is in a worse state than when he arrived, what's worse is the ticket prices are sky high and he supports this, on top of that the football is rubbish, we can't keep hold of players and our transfers have generally been rubbish.

I agree, it's Wenger that has ruined football for the fans, not the money in football, like you say we wouldn't care if we had a quality team competing, the guy thinks he's Arsenals messiah and the reason we exist, to be honest he's had it easy, easy from the club and easy from the fans, he had blind support from many for years, many more years than he would have had at any other club.

If anything Arsenal fans are the opposite of spoilt, they've been loyal beyond belief to a man who doesn't give them anything back and blames them a lot of the time.

I'm not being funny but how much do people now remember of the the great teams, Ill be honest and say those times are a distant memory, it's becoming hard to remember the champagne football and successes as they're so long ago now,for me I'll remember him as the guy who turned this club into this thing that I no longer really like and a manager who was in reality overrated by many.

[Niall_Quinn]

Arsenal fans may not be entitled, but they are definitely mugs. All of us. This guy should have walked 10 years ago and even now he's still given a very easy ride with fans too afraid to pull out a protest banner because they get attacked by Wenger cultists. Can you imagine Hammers or Geordies or Mancs putting up with this for so long? They'd have long hounded the guy out.

[KSE Comedy Club]

No other club would put up with what we've had to. Fuck me, some managers only have to lose 10 games to be sacked these days.

[HCZ]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/what-arsene-wenger-before-cup-12107420.amp

If this is true IF

Than the players are as much cunts as Wenger is.

They are professional athletes being paid obscene money, they shouldn’t be complaining about feeling shattered. We know that Spurs players are drilled rigorously. If you’re exhausted because you are pushed too hard in training the fault lies as much with them as their idiotic manager

[Marc Overmars]

Pampered cunts.

The majority of them have had sufficient rest throughout the season given we’ve mostly used second string teams in the cups.

[Özim]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/what-arsene-wenger-before-cup-12107420.amp

If this is true IF

Than the players are as much cunts as Wenger is.

They are professional athletes being paid obscene money, they shouldn’t be complaining about feeling shattered. We know that Spurs players are drilled rigorously. If you’re exhausted because you are pushed too hard in training the fault lies as much with them as their idiotic manager

If I had to listen to the guy drone on about his 5 yard passing I'd probably be shattered too, to be honest

[Niall_Quinn]

Pampered cunts.

The majority of them have had sufficient rest throughout the season given we’ve mostly used second string teams in the cups.

There is great spirit and togetherness but we lacked little bit sharpness. The culture is ideal. We must ignore this game and focus on the next one. We must bounce back in the game after this one. It is vital to the culture.

[Cripps]

Can you imagine players phoning in sick under Simeone :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Can you imagine players phoning in sick under Simeone :lol:

Can you imagine any club keeping Wenger as a manger for over 20 years? Ridiculous plot. This film would never be made.

[Power n Glory]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/what-arsene-wenger-before-cup-12107420.amp

If this is true IF

Than the players are as much cunts as Wenger is.

They are professional athletes being paid obscene money, they shouldn’t be complaining about feeling shattered. We know that Spurs players are drilled rigorously. If you’re exhausted because you are pushed too hard in training the fault lies as much with them as their idiotic manager

Not sure I agree with that. If they are over training and being left drained it may explain the flat performances on top of the poor mental preparation. It may also explain the amount of injuries we pick up. I can't understand why the players would put up such a poor effort for a cup final so maybe it's more than just a mental thing and has something to do with physical conditioning.

[selassie]

Last nights game pretty much summed up where it’s all gone wrong for Wenger, a half empty stadium, a team that lacks an identity and direction.

I watched Wenger’s post match interview and he is a beaten and broken man, he wasn’t even defiant or blaming it on the referee or whatever.

For his own sake I truly hope he steps down at the end of the season. Is it really worth him sticking around? I mean honestly? He has nothing to give.

[IBK]

Last nights game pretty much summed up where it’s all gone wrong for Wenger, a half empty stadium, a team that lacks an identity and direction.

I watched Wenger’s post match interview and he is a beaten and broken man, he wasn’t even defiant or blaming it on the referee or whatever.

For his own sake I truly hope he steps down at the end of the season. Is it really worth him sticking around? I mean honestly? He has nothing to give.

Its a bit sad that for there to be any chance of AW realising this, he needs to be taken to humiliation and the shredding of his legacy.

[selassie]

Its a bit sad that for there to be any chance of AW realising this, he needs to be taken to humiliation and the shredding of his legacy.

Yep, very sad. I don’t know what the powers of be are saying to him but it must be clear to him now that the fan base have just given up. Honestly, I actually feel sorry for him, I mean it’s clear he has completely lost his way. It’s not like a couple of seasons ago where we were playing attractive football and capable of beating anyone or going on a long unbeaten run, it’s far from that now. We genuinely are a very average team, we can’t even pass the ball FFS.

[Letters]

IMO it was a case of right place, right time for Wenger, his record before he arrived was nothing to ride home about.

Is that actually how you think that phrase goes? :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Yep, very sad. I don’t know what the powers of be are saying to him but it must be clear to him now that the fan base have just given up. Honestly, I actually feel sorry for him, I mean it’s clear he has completely lost his way. It’s not like a couple of seasons ago where we were playing attractive football and capable of beating anyone or going on a long unbeaten run, it’s far from that now. We genuinely are a very average team, we can’t even pass the ball FFS.

Why?

He's not a stupid man in terms of intelligence. So either he's had a mental breakdown (as I have suggested) or he's deliberately put his own interests over those of the club, something he said he would never do. I don't think you can feel sympathy for such a selfish individual. You can pity him, despise him, hold him in contempt, but have sympathy for a guy who must surely have known the risks and took them anyway so the needs of the one could take precedence over the needs of the many?

If he's had a breakdown then it's Kroenke that deserves our contempt for allowing a sick man to continue in this position and be battered from all sides. Well, Kroenke deserves our contempt anyway so nothing new there.

But I won't be joining in the Wenger love-in that will inevitably occur when he leaves. That bridge was burned the minute he signed the last contract. Blown up in fact given the way he bypassed his own (alleged) boss and ran to Stan. And how can you have sympathy for a man who is so arrogant he simply refuses to listen to the tidal wave of opinion that is pointing out the obvious?

Like any dictator, he craves power and he's done whatever it took to hold onto it. I don't respect that and I don't sympathise with it and no matter what the guy has done in the past he won't be forgiven for what he's done in the present - not by me anyway. Which I know will come as a severe blow to him because he respects me just as much as I respect him, in fact he "respects" all the fans in the same way. He's blamed us enough times for his failings after all.

[Niall_Quinn]

Is that actually how you think that phrase goes? :lol:

I do the typo thing as a joke, "You said..."

You do it for real :doh:

[Goonermerree]

I used t feel sorry for him, but he just won't listen. Even Wrighty and Keown are questioning him - hell everyone is. The commentator and pundit on the Sunday match were saying the only change will come is when the manager goes, the media never used to do that, we had to be 'careful what we wished for' and how we as Arsenal fans were ungrateful. Not any more.

[Marc Overmars]

I don't feel sorry for him, I don't really feel anything now. I said last night I'm even sure what the point is in talking about what's going wrong anymore.

This sums it up perfectly:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcZzlPGnKdU

[Letters]

I do the typo thing as a joke, "You said..."

You do it for real :doh:

It just amused me. As Zim's a Frenchy, he might genuinely think that's what the phrase is.

[Niall_Quinn]

It just amused me. As Zim's a Frenchy, he might genuinely think that's what the phrase is.

French!

When did that happen? Why hasn't he been banned?

[HCZ]

French!

When did that happen? Why hasn't he been banned?

It’s worse than you think

I’m pretty sure there are blacks and Asians on here too

[Özim]

Is that actually how you think that phrase goes? :lol:

No obviously it's write home about!

I wrote it in a hurry without thinking.

[Letters]

No obviously it's write home about!

I wrote it in a hurry without thinking.

:lol: Fair enough :hug:

Controversially, I do actually agree with much of your post. I do intend to respond properly.

[Letters]

French!

When did that happen? Why hasn't he been banned?

Only anti-Wenger people get banned on here. Zim's cheery pro-Wenger stance (I guess because of their shared nationality) means he's safe from my infamous ban hammer.

[selassie]

Why?

He's not a stupid man in terms of intelligence. So either he's had a mental breakdown (as I have suggested) or he's deliberately put his own interests over those of the club, something he said he would never do. I don't think you can feel sympathy for such a selfish individual. You can pity him, despise him, hold him in contempt, but have sympathy for a guy who must surely have known the risks and took them anyway so the needs of the one could take precedence over the needs of the many?

If he's had a breakdown then it's Kroenke that deserves our contempt for allowing a sick man to continue in this position and be battered from all sides. Well, Kroenke deserves our contempt anyway so nothing new there.

But I won't be joining in the Wenger love-in that will inevitably occur when he leaves. That bridge was burned the minute he signed the last contract. Blown up in fact given the way he bypassed his own (alleged) boss and ran to Stan. And how can you have sympathy for a man who is so arrogant he simply refuses to listen to the tidal wave of opinion that is pointing out the obvious?

Like any dictator, he craves power and he's done whatever it took to hold onto it. I don't respect that and I don't sympathise with it and no matter what the guy has done in the past he won't be forgiven for what he's done in the present - not by me anyway. Which I know will come as a severe blow to him because he respects me just as much as I respect him, in fact he "respects" all the fans in the same way. He's blamed us enough times for his failings after all.

Sure NQ, I hear you. I mean don't get me wrong I still think he is a defiant, deluded, selfish, arrogant and stubborn man, of course he is a dictator, but I also think he's kidding himself if he feels he is doing a good job and that everybody is over-reacting, that is the gist of what he was saying the other day in his press conference. I feel sorry for him if he truly believes this. His only defence these days is what he did 10 years ago and what clubs he turned down 10 years ago, nobody really cares anymore....that was then, this is now.

If he clings onto his job this summer then he is a fool. He is destroying the club right before our eyes and I don't think I am over-reacting in saying this. He was 100% responsible for the half empty stadium last night, he is 100% responsible for the team and the mess it is currently in and has been in for a couple of years. He is 100% responsible for years of underachievement, poor recruitment etc.

I don't respect him at all, that respect went a long time ago. I respect what he did over 10 years ago...but not now.

FFIW, I do actually think he's just putting his interests over those of the club, I have thought that for a while now, especially after last summer and his grovelling act to Kroenke.

[IBK]

Why?

He's not a stupid man in terms of intelligence. So either he's had a mental breakdown (as I have suggested) or he's deliberately put his own interests over those of the club, something he said he would never do. I don't think you can feel sympathy for such a selfish individual. You can pity him, despise him, hold him in contempt, but have sympathy for a guy who must surely have known the risks and took them anyway so the needs of the one could take precedence over the needs of the many?

If he's had a breakdown then it's Kroenke that deserves our contempt for allowing a sick man to continue in this position and be battered from all sides. Well, Kroenke deserves our contempt anyway so nothing new there.

But I won't be joining in the Wenger love-in that will inevitably occur when he leaves. That bridge was burned the minute he signed the last contract. Blown up in fact given the way he bypassed his own (alleged) boss and ran to Stan. And how can you have sympathy for a man who is so arrogant he simply refuses to listen to the tidal wave of opinion that is pointing out the obvious?

Like any dictator, he craves power and he's done whatever it took to hold onto it. I don't respect that and I don't sympathise with it and no matter what the guy has done in the past he won't be forgiven for what he's done in the present - not by me anyway. Which I know will come as a severe blow to him because he respects me just as much as I respect him, in fact he "respects" all the fans in the same way. He's blamed us enough times for his failings after all.

Hmmm - I think the reality is that it will take a long time...but eventually he will be recognised for what he achieved - even if this is tempered by the fact that he will be held up as an object lesson in outstaying his welcome...a kind of footballing Robert Mugabe if you will.

:edit: although the only slaughtering AW has done (to the best of my knowledge) is to his football team.

[Niall_Quinn]

It’s worse than you think

I’m pretty sure there are blacks and Asians on here too

Scaremongering at it's finest.

[Niall_Quinn]

Sure NQ, I hear you. I mean don't get me wrong I still think he is a defiant, deluded, selfish, arrogant and stubborn man, of course he is a dictator, but I also think he's kidding himself if he feels he is doing a good job and that everybody is over-reacting, that is the gist of what he was saying the other day in his press conference. I feel sorry for him if he truly believes this. His only defence these days is what he did 10 years ago and what clubs he turned down 10 years ago, nobody really cares anymore....that was then, this is now.

If he clings onto his job this summer then he is a fool. He is destroying the club right before our eyes and I don't think I am over-reacting in saying this. He was 100% responsible for the half empty stadium last night, he is 100% responsible for the team and the mess it is currently in and has been in for a couple of years. He is 100% responsible for years of underachievement, poor recruitment etc.

I don't respect him at all, that respect went a long time ago. I respect what he did over 10 years ago...but not now.

FFIW, I do actually think he's just putting his interests over those of the club, I have thought that for a while now, especially after last summer and his grovelling act to Kroenke.

He probably didn't turn down any of those job offers anyway. He probably turned up to negotiate and after 6 months they just said, Oh forget it FFS! Fuck off!

[Power n Glory]

Why?

He's not a stupid man in terms of intelligence. So either he's had a mental breakdown (as I have suggested) or he's deliberately put his own interests over those of the club, something he said he would never do. I don't think you can feel sympathy for such a selfish individual. You can pity him, despise him, hold him in contempt, but have sympathy for a guy who must surely have known the risks and took them anyway so the needs of the one could take precedence over the needs of the many?

If he's had a breakdown then it's Kroenke that deserves our contempt for allowing a sick man to continue in this position and be battered from all sides. Well, Kroenke deserves our contempt anyway so nothing new there.

But I won't be joining in the Wenger love-in that will inevitably occur when he leaves. That bridge was burned the minute he signed the last contract. Blown up in fact given the way he bypassed his own (alleged) boss and ran to Stan. And how can you have sympathy for a man who is so arrogant he simply refuses to listen to the tidal wave of opinion that is pointing out the obvious?

Like any dictator, he craves power and he's done whatever it took to hold onto it. I don't respect that and I don't sympathise with it and no matter what the guy has done in the past he won't be forgiven for what he's done in the present - not by me anyway. Which I know will come as a severe blow to him because he respects me just as much as I respect him, in fact he "respects" all the fans in the same way. He's blamed us enough times for his failings after all.

Zero sympathy for Wenger. He'll dish it out when he wants so I don't really care what comes his way. A few difficult questions won't make me feel sorry for the guy. He's taking the aboslute piss and I don't care how he leaves.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

None of those big clubs have been anything close to the scrupulous, ethical, football is a sport first utopians ideals of a football club Wenger has always aligned himself with anyway.

I've often struggled to imagine what kind of club other than Arsenal he can currently operate in having the principles he has and having been in something of a bubble for over 20 years where things operate in a very particular way where he has a lot of control.

A bubble that's virtually in a time capsule!

In many ways he is more suited to a small to medium lower profile club than one of the biggest in the world. I would love to ask him about that.

[Globalgunner]

Does anyone have a guess how much Wenger has stashed away these days. Would it be enough to buy Kroenke out?. Imagine if Wenger could buy Arsenal, then he would be here for 50 years. Where is Flamini these days?. He has money, if those two were to team up. Perish the thought. A 90 year old manager and a 55 year old midfielder running our team. Im putting out an APB for Flamini, right now.

[Cripps]

Zim's French :lol:

That explains a lot.

[Cripps]

https://twitter.com/DarrenArsenal1/status/969514628056264705?s=19

DarrenArsenal:bow:

[HCZ]

Pretty damning but fair assessment I’d say

[selassie]

https://twitter.com/DarrenArsenal1/status/969514628056264705?s=19

DarrenArsenal:bow:

Decent article that.

[Goonermerree]

A bit of a p*ss take on 5 Live fighting talk of Arsene and Arsenal TV. Oh we are a laughing stock!

[Letters]

I think it's as simple as he was a man ahead of his time...but that time was over 20 years ago.

It seems obvious now that footballers are athletes and should behave as such. When Wenger came in it was in the era when clubs still had "drinking schools", players would start the day with fried breakfasts.
Wenger's diet and fitness methods made us fitter than other teams. Players from that era have credited Wenger for extending their careers.

He also had a knowledge of the European and worldwide game which allowed him to cherry-pick some great players before they were on other team's radars.
It was perhaps a happy co-incidence that it was at a time when French players had a golden generation.

He did inherit a good defence and captain but just crediting his success to that is too simplistic - The Invincibles was pretty much entirely Wenger's squad, Vieira was Wenger's captain.

So where did it all go wrong? Wenger has always had weaknesses.
He was never a good motivator - but you don't need to be when you've got Adams or Vieira out there.
He was never a good tactician - but when you've got players like Vieira, Henry, Bergkamp et al, you don't need to be a master tactician.

Wenger's weaknesses were always apparent, looking back. It's hard to notice when you're winning a sack of trophies, but thinking back - we never retained the title, that squad really should have.
We failed in Europe - that squad really should have won a CL or two.
But in the early days his strengths outweighed his weaknesses.

Then other clubs started to improve their fitness methods.
Other clubs started to build global scouting networks.
Then the billionaires stuck their oars in.

Wenger no longer has the edge he once had. He's like a man who had a 128k Spectrum when everyone else had 48k ones, but then everyone else bought and Atari ST and Wenger didn't upgrade.
I still think he did pretty well in an era when the billionaires were starting to have a big impact and our finances were restricted by the stadium move to keep us relatively competitive.
For all the failures the 3 FA Cups have been nice.
But he's just not up to competing for the biggest prizes any more.

IMO the issue is more than Wenger hasn't changed, football has changed around him and he's been unable to keep up.
To be fair, not managers can. Clough did amazing things but couldn't sustain it and ended up taking Forest down in the end.
We haven't fallen anywhere near that far and I don't think we will. I just wish Wenger had gone at the end of last season, it was probably his last chance to get out with some dignity.

[Power n Glory]

I think it's as simple as he was a man ahead of his time...but that time was over 20 years ago.

It seems obvious now that footballers are athletes and should behave as such. When Wenger came in it was in the era when clubs still had "drinking schools", players would start the day with fried breakfasts.
Wenger's diet and fitness methods made us fitter than other teams. Players from that era have credited Wenger for extending their careers.

He also had a knowledge of the European and worldwide game which allowed him to cherry-pick some great players before they were on other team's radars.
It was perhaps a happy co-incidence that it was at a time when French players had a golden generation.

He did inherit a good defence and captain but just crediting his success to that is too simplistic - The Invincibles was pretty much entirely Wenger's squad, Vieira was Wenger's captain.

So where did it all go wrong? Wenger has always had weaknesses.
He was never a good motivator - but you don't need to be when you've got Adams or Vieira out there.
He was never a good tactician - but when you've got players like Vieira, Henry, Bergkamp et al, you don't need to be a master tactician.

Wenger's weaknesses were always apparent, looking back. It's hard to notice when you're winning a sack of trophies, but thinking back - we never retained the title, that squad really should have.
We failed in Europe - that squad really should have won a CL or two.
But in the early days his strengths outweighed his weaknesses.

Then other clubs started to improve their fitness methods.
Other clubs started to build global scouting networks.
Then the billionaires stuck their oars in.

Wenger no longer has the edge he once had. He's like a man who had a 128k Spectrum when everyone else had 48k ones, but then everyone else bought and Atari ST and Wenger didn't upgrade.
I still think he did pretty well in an era when the billionaires were starting to have a big impact and our finances were restricted by the stadium move to keep us relatively competitive.
For all the failures the 3 FA Cups have been nice.
But he's just not up to competing for the biggest prizes any more.

IMO the issue is more than Wenger hasn't changed, football has changed around him and he's been unable to keep up.
To be fair, not managers can. Clough did amazing things but couldn't sustain it and ended up taking Forest down in the end.
We haven't fallen anywhere near that far and I don't think we will. I just wish Wenger had gone at the end of last season, it was probably his last chance to get out with some dignity.

You're right about him always having these weaknesses and I'm glad it can be discussed without people saying it's revisionism. The rose tints have now come off.

[Goonermerree]

I think Wenger also stubbornly resisted the money coming in to football.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think Wenger also stubbornly resisted the money coming in to football.

There's the morality of a thing and then there's the reality of it. If Wenger's role these past 20 years had been to philosophise about the state of modern football then he's made some good points and done a great job, maybe too good a job as he never shuts up. But his actual job, in the real world, has been football manager of Arsenal Football Club. And the goal of a competitive sports team is to win. That's what he's resisted.

[Letters]

You're right about him always having these weaknesses and I'm glad it can be discussed without people saying it's revisionism. The rose tints have now come off.

I've been arguing this for years, that the problem isn't how much he's change but how much he hasn't while football has changed around him.
But it is revisionism to claim silly things like he was never any good in the first place and he just got lucky and inherited a good squad.

[Marc Overmars]

The game has certainly moved on without him but recently I actually think he’s developed new weaknesses.

He was never that bad a coach, he always managed to deliver a high standard of football even when the squad was perceived to be a lot weaker than it is now. Getting his team to be the sum of their parts was always something you could rely on but now the team is so dysfunctional, he’s really lost his grasp on them. He’s developed a blind spot for how his teams have always played and now we’re left with this broken mess we see today. He could elevate the game of any player but individuals are actually becoming worse under his guidance now.

[IBK]

I think it's as simple as he was a man ahead of his time...but that time was over 20 years ago.

It seems obvious now that footballers are athletes and should behave as such. When Wenger came in it was in the era when clubs still had "drinking schools", players would start the day with fried breakfasts.
Wenger's diet and fitness methods made us fitter than other teams. Players from that era have credited Wenger for extending their careers.

He also had a knowledge of the European and worldwide game which allowed him to cherry-pick some great players before they were on other team's radars.
It was perhaps a happy co-incidence that it was at a time when French players had a golden generation.

He did inherit a good defence and captain but just crediting his success to that is too simplistic - The Invincibles was pretty much entirely Wenger's squad, Vieira was Wenger's captain.

So where did it all go wrong? Wenger has always had weaknesses.
He was never a good motivator - but you don't need to be when you've got Adams or Vieira out there.
He was never a good tactician - but when you've got players like Vieira, Henry, Bergkamp et al, you don't need to be a master tactician.

Wenger's weaknesses were always apparent, looking back. It's hard to notice when you're winning a sack of trophies, but thinking back - we never retained the title, that squad really should have.
We failed in Europe - that squad really should have won a CL or two.
But in the early days his strengths outweighed his weaknesses.

Then other clubs started to improve their fitness methods.
Other clubs started to build global scouting networks.
Then the billionaires stuck their oars in.

Wenger no longer has the edge he once had. He's like a man who had a 128k Spectrum when everyone else had 48k ones, but then everyone else bought and Atari ST and Wenger didn't upgrade.
I still think he did pretty well in an era when the billionaires were starting to have a big impact and our finances were restricted by the stadium move to keep us relatively competitive.
For all the failures the 3 FA Cups have been nice.
But he's just not up to competing for the biggest prizes any more.

IMO the issue is more than Wenger hasn't changed, football has changed around him and he's been unable to keep up.
To be fair, not managers can. Clough did amazing things but couldn't sustain it and ended up taking Forest down in the end.
We haven't fallen anywhere near that far and I don't think we will. I just wish Wenger had gone at the end of last season, it was probably his last chance to get out with some dignity.

Agree with all that. Where 'blame' has to be apportioned however is that because of his unprecedented position of power at our club, AW also has an unprecedented duty to take responsibility for what has now been obvious for some time. He has steadfastly resisted the opportunity to bring fresh personnel and ideas into the club - assistant managers with real power to help him, and has been opposed even to the changes in scouting and directorship that have happened lately. For someone with his intelligence and pedigree, it his his lack of understanding and oversight that has to a large degree led to this mess. For years he has been the only person who can in reality orchestrate some change - yes of course the owner and board have connived in this but if the manager had had any real sense of altruism for AFC he should have recognised what was happening and taken steps to address this. What is looks like is that our club's, and his own reputation have paid the price for the manager's megalomania, and that has led to the bitterness and resentment.

[Letters]

The game has certainly moved on without him but recently I actually think he’s developed new weaknesses.

He was never that bad a coach, he always managed to deliver a high standard of football even when the squad was perceived to be a lot weaker than it is now. Getting his team to be the sum of their parts was always something you could rely on but now the team is so dysfunctional, he’s really lost his grasp on them. He’s developed a blind spot for how his teams have always played and now we’re left with this broken mess we see today. He could elevate the game of any player but individuals are actually becoming worse under his guidance now.

A few times over the last decade I've thought he's "lost the dressing room", but every other time we've pulled it together and gone on one of our runs, latterly we've even managed to win some trophies, so it seemed he'd never completely lost them.
Now though, it really does seem that the players have lost faith in him and maybe each other. It's quite the mess. BUT, I do believe we have a good squad and I don't think a new manager would find it that hard to get this lot in the top 4 and challenging anyone (well, apart from this season's City who are doing pretty crazy, unprecedented things)

[IBK]

Agree with all that. Where 'blame' has to be apportioned however is that because of his unprecedented position of power at our club, AW also has an unprecedented duty to take responsibility for what has now been obvious for some time. He has steadfastly resisted the opportunity to bring fresh personnel and ideas into the club - assistant managers with real power to help him, and has been opposed even to the changes in scouting and directorship that have happened lately. For someone with his intelligence and pedigree, it his his lack of understanding and oversight that has to a large degree led to this mess. For years he has been the only person who can in reality orchestrate some change - yes of course the owner and board have connived in this but if the manager had had any real sense of altruism for AFC he should have recognised what was happening and taken steps to address this. What is looks like is that our club's, and his own reputation have paid the price for the manager's megalomania, and that has led to the bitterness and resentment.

Just saw this article in a link over on ANR. Interesting angle that reflects what i am trying to say...

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/arsenals-problem-french-bureaucracy/

[HCZ]

Has someone got David Deins number

[selassie]

Agree with all that. Where 'blame' has to be apportioned however is that because of his unprecedented position of power at our club, AW also has an unprecedented duty to take responsibility for what has now been obvious for some time. He has steadfastly resisted the opportunity to bring fresh personnel and ideas into the club - assistant managers with real power to help him, and has been opposed even to the changes in scouting and directorship that have happened lately. For someone with his intelligence and pedigree, it his his lack of understanding and oversight that has to a large degree led to this mess. For years he has been the only person who can in reality orchestrate some change - yes of course the owner and board have connived in this but if the manager had had any real sense of altruism for AFC he should have recognised what was happening and taken steps to address this. What is looks like is that our club's, and his own reputation have paid the price for the manager's megalomania, and that has led to the bitterness and resentment.

:gp:

Agree with all of this, every single word! Good to have you back too IBK. :)

[Marc Overmars]

A few times over the last decade I've thought he's "lost the dressing room", but every other time we've pulled it together and gone on one of our runs, latterly we've even managed to win some trophies, so it seemed he'd never completely lost them.
Now though, it really does seem that the players have lost faith in him and maybe each other. It's quite the mess. BUT, I do believe we have a good squad and I don't think a new manager would find it that hard to get this lot in the top 4 and challenging anyone (well, apart from this season's City who are doing pretty crazy, unprecedented things)

Wenger's teams always had an identity but not anymore. Which I think is a relatively new weakness that's only manifested itself over the past few seasons only, he doesn't really know how to implement the style of play he wants anymore. For a coach to lose his identity, I believe that's the death knell.

[IBK]

:gp:

Agree with all of this, every single word! Good to have you back too IBK. :)

Thanks mate :good:

[Niall_Quinn]

The other factors are the insane greed of the previous board. Nobody should forget the vicious knife fights that took place back then as the pigs jostled for their cut of Kroenke's wife's cash.

And Kronke himself. Has never put a penny in, spun his tales about lack of money during the stadium project, and then got caught taking money out for "consultancy" when the bloke can't even talk. What a scumbag.

Greed. Power. Nest feathering. That's the story of Arsenal Football Club and the Emirates.

[selassie]

Wenger's teams always had an identity but not anymore. Which I think is a relatively new weakness that's only manifested itself over the past few seasons only, he doesn't really know how to implement the style of play he wants anymore. For a coach to lose his identity, I believe that's the death knell.

Aye, HCZ brought this up the other week too regarding Wenger's current team having a lack of identity and I totally agree with the both of you.

These days it's just a collection of players and IMO Wenger is literally just hoping for the best. There is no defined style, no defined roles, just nothing but 10 outfield players and a keeper who has seen better days.

Wenger's recruitment has become increasingly sketchy too..I'm not against buying the likes of Auba and Mkhi per se, but we are going to get what a maximum of 3 high level seasons out of either of them if we are lucky as they are both what 29?

Why aren't we in the market for young/talented players? City were able to buy the likes of Sane, Bernardo Silva, Gabriel Jesus & De Bruyne for fairly reasonable prices...like 40-60million bracket, why aren't we in the market for players of this kind of profile?

[IBK]

Aye, HCZ brought this up the other week too regarding Wenger's current team having a lack of identity and I totally agree with the both of you.

These days it's just a collection of players and IMO Wenger is literally just hoping for the best. There is no defined style, no defined roles, just nothing but 10 outfield players and a keeper who has seen better days.

Wenger's recruitment has become increasingly sketchy too..I'm not against buying the likes of Auba and Mkhi per se, but we are going to get what a maximum of 3 high level seasons out of either of them if we are lucky as they are both what 29?

Why aren't we in the market for young/talented players? City were able to buy the likes of Sane, Bernardo Silva, Gabriel Jesus & De Bruyne for fairly reasonable prices...like 40-60million bracket, why aren't we in the market for players of this kind of profile?

Its consistent with the idea of AW no longer having any clear understanding of what his team needs. if we are honest, his apparent change of attitude over recent years when it comes to spending has the distinct feeling of desperation - a last roll of the dice - than any proper plan. He looks like a manager doing what a fan would try to do - bringing in players who look good as individuals without any thought being given to how they actually fit in to an effective team. Our latest acquisitions are a case in point. Any team needs first to have solidity - and the priority should have been to bring in top quality defensive/GK/defensive MF cover to stop the rot, not the kind of attacking players who seem more like vanity signings than ones that stabilise the team. Bif and even Walcott would IMO have done as much in a stabilised team than Mikataryan and Aubameyang...

[Goonermerree]

Its consistent with the idea of AW no longer having any clear understanding of what his team needs. if we are honest, his apparent change of attitude over recent years when it comes to spending has the distinct feeling of desperation - a last roll of the dice - than any proper plan. He looks like a manager doing what a fan would try to do - bringing in players who look good as individuals without any thought being given to how they actually fit in to an effective team. Our latest acquisitions are a case in point. Any team needs first to have solidity - and the priority should have been to bring in top quality defensive/GK/defensive MF cover to stop the rot, not the kind of attacking players who seem more like vanity signings than ones that stabilise the team. Bif and even Walcott would IMO have done as much in a stabilised team than Mikataryan and Aubameyang...
I agree with that. At lest they scored the odd goal. We have similar players to the two who were brought in. We have a glut of midfielders not of them are much good,as you say, that is one of the positions that needed to be addressed.

[Niall_Quinn]

I agree with that. At lest they scored the odd goal. We have similar players to the two who were brought in. We have a glut of midfielders not of them are much good,as you say, that is one of the positions that needed to be addressed.

They scored ALL our recent goals tbf, along with Alexis. Wenger sold off all our goals in the January window. His plan to replace them was to bring in an expensive striker and then isolate him at the top of a tippy tap, sideways, backwards, no pace, no energy ballet of triangles. Wenger has developed Total Non-Football.

[Goonermerree]

They scored ALL our recent goals tbf, along with Alexis. Wenger sold off all our goals in the January window. His plan to replace them was to bring in an expensive striker and then isolate him at the top of a tippy tap, sideways, backwards, no pace, no energy ballet of triangles. Wenger has developed Total Non-Football.

Pretty sure Monreal contributed one or two.

[Niall_Quinn]

Pretty sure Monreal contributed one or two.

Did you watch our DM against Brighton? He was on the left, he was on the right, he was behind the CM, ahead of the CM, everywhere. Charging around like a headless chicken. I felt sorry for him. It's plain he was trying. But he was making it up as he went along, absent any sort of predefined role or system in which to play that role. That's Wenger's cheap and ridiculous impersonation of Cryuff, or Pep at Barca. Just let them do their own thing and see what happens. The freedom but without the painstaking training that retains the integrity of the team and keeps it operating as a single unit with interchangeable parts. I'd much rather see Monreal nowhere near the opposition goal and solid in defence for a while, along with his colleagues at the back. Instead we have Mustafi and Koscielny doing the Xhaka. It's an utter shambles. The opposition must laugh when they see what's going on.

[Goonermerree]

Did you watch our DM against Brighton? He was on the left, he was on the right, he was behind the CM, ahead of the CM, everywhere. Charging around like a headless chicken. I felt sorry for him. It's plain he was trying. But he was making it up as he went along, absent any sort of predefined role or system in which to play that role. That's Wenger's cheap and ridiculous impersonation of Cryuff, or Pep at Barca. Just let them do their own thing and see what happens. The freedom but without the painstaking training that retains the integrity of the team and keeps it operating as a single unit with interchangeable parts. I'd much rather see Monreal nowhere near the opposition goal and solid in defence for a while, along with his colleagues at the back. Instead we have Mustafi and Koscielny doing the Xhaka. It's an utter shambles. The opposition must laugh when they see what's going on.

Don't disagree, but he did score a few goals recently!

[IBK]

Did you watch our DM against Brighton? He was on the left, he was on the right, he was behind the CM, ahead of the CM, everywhere. Charging around like a headless chicken. I felt sorry for him. It's plain he was trying. But he was making it up as he went along, absent any sort of predefined role or system in which to play that role. That's Wenger's cheap and ridiculous impersonation of Cryuff, or Pep at Barca. Just let them do their own thing and see what happens. The freedom but without the painstaking training that retains the integrity of the team and keeps it operating as a single unit with interchangeable parts. I'd much rather see Monreal nowhere near the opposition goal and solid in defence for a while, along with his colleagues at the back. Instead we have Mustafi and Koscielny doing the Xhaka. It's an utter shambles. The opposition must laugh when they see what's going on.

:gp: Spot on.

[IBK]

:gp: Spot on.

PS maybe we could call it 'doing the Xhakarena'? :lol:

[LDG]

What made me laugh yesterday, was the passage of play for our goal.

Get it forward quickly, get it wide, stretch the play, load the box. Goal.

Did we do that again for the rest of the match? Did we fuck. We had the blueprint, yet we still had Jack running down blind alleys, Kacka passing it backwards, and Iwobi....Iwobi-ing.

[Niall_Quinn]

What made me laugh yesterday, was the passage of play for our goal.

Get it forward quickly, get it wide, stretch the play, load the box. Goal.

Did we do that again for the rest of the match? Did we fuck. We had the blueprint, yet we still had Jack running down blind alleys, Kacka passing it backwards, and Iwobi....Iwobi-ing.

And that's how we beat the handful of top teams we've managed to get the better of in recent seasons. Those rare, rare occasions.

Direct, incisive football. We've often had low possession (38% once IIRC) when we've achieved our better results. But every time Wenger saw that (if he saw it) he reinforced the tip tap bullshit.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger has united the world :bow:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFbtEuE-bZ0

[Goonermerree]

Wenger has united the world :bow:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFbtEuE-bZ0

He was the new Messiah after all!!!

[Niall_Quinn]

He was the new Messiah after all!!!

And just like Jesus, we ungrateful twats are trying to crucify him :doh:

(I think Ty might actually believe this)

[HCZ]

Jesus was a cunt

Just saying

[Niall_Quinn]

The ultimate expression of Wengerball.

http://video.dailymail.co.uk/preview/mol/2018/03/05/7886294792290060970/636x382_MP4_7886294792290060970.mp4

[Cripps]

The ultimate expression of Wengerball.

http://video.dailymail.co.uk/preview/mol/2018/03/05/7886294792290060970/636x382_MP4_7886294792290060970.mp4

Everyone's making a big deal out of that but teams do that regularly, put 10 men behind the ball and sit back :unsure:

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger almost issues an instruction from the sideline, but stops himself in the nick of time.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/03/05/12/49D54B6800000578-5463523-image-a-61_1520253432738.jpg

[Cripps]

Steve Bould :doh:

Had so much expectation when he was appointed, utterly disappointed :rose:

[Chippy]

I think it's as simple as he was a man ahead of his time...but that time was over 20 years ago.

It seems obvious now that footballers are athletes and should behave as such. When Wenger came in it was in the era when clubs still had "drinking schools", players would start the day with fried breakfasts.
Wenger's diet and fitness methods made us fitter than other teams. Players from that era have credited Wenger for extending their careers.

He also had a knowledge of the European and worldwide game which allowed him to cherry-pick some great players before they were on other team's radars.
It was perhaps a happy co-incidence that it was at a time when French players had a golden generation.

He did inherit a good defence and captain but just crediting his success to that is too simplistic - The Invincibles was pretty much entirely Wenger's squad, Vieira was Wenger's captain.

So where did it all go wrong? Wenger has always had weaknesses.
He was never a good motivator - but you don't need to be when you've got Adams or Vieira out there.
He was never a good tactician - but when you've got players like Vieira, Henry, Bergkamp et al, you don't need to be a master tactician.

Wenger's weaknesses were always apparent, looking back. It's hard to notice when you're winning a sack of trophies, but thinking back - we never retained the title, that squad really should have.
We failed in Europe - that squad really should have won a CL or two.
But in the early days his strengths outweighed his weaknesses.

Then other clubs started to improve their fitness methods.
Other clubs started to build global scouting networks.
Then the billionaires stuck their oars in.

Wenger no longer has the edge he once had. He's like a man who had a 128k Spectrum when everyone else had 48k ones, but then everyone else bought and Atari ST and Wenger didn't upgrade.
I still think he did pretty well in an era when the billionaires were starting to have a big impact and our finances were restricted by the stadium move to keep us relatively competitive.
For all the failures the 3 FA Cups have been nice.
But he's just not up to competing for the biggest prizes any more.

IMO the issue is more than Wenger hasn't changed, football has changed around him and he's been unable to keep up.
To be fair, not managers can. Clough did amazing things but couldn't sustain it and ended up taking Forest down in the end.
We haven't fallen anywhere near that far and I don't think we will. I just wish Wenger had gone at the end of last season, it was probably his last chance to get out with some dignity.
If he stays another season, he could actually emulate Clough. We are very poor and it will take several years to recover. He is a greedy cunt who has put himself first. Fuck off Wenger and all the "Wenger in" fucktards.

[Mac76]

If he stays another season, he could actually emulate Clough.

only if he hits the bottle - Clough's face was held together by red blotches at the end

Ferguc**t was going the same way at one point but unfortunately he reigned it in :sarcy: ;)

[Niall_Quinn]

only if he hits the bottle - Clough's face was held together by red blotches at the end

Ferguc**t was going the same way at one point but unfortunately he reigned it in :sarcy: ;)

At least Clough had an excuse. He was a drunk.

What's Wenger's excuse for staggering around the place spouting bullshit and outstaying his welcome?

[Mac76]

At least Clough had an excuse. He was a drunk.

What's Wenger's excuse for staggering around the place spouting bullshit and outstaying his welcome?

Hmm... maybe he does have a bottle of something strong in his desk after all...

"come on zen - 'ow many orf you - i weel take you all on..."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/football/2017/05/27/TELEMMGLPICT000130228989_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqutIaqbt dgycbjoKap7Ft8ynnLGsnps7ZOlcGe7fVzXM.jpeg?imwidth= 450

[Letters]

If he stays another season, he could actually emulate Clough.

Behave. This is by far our worst team (I don't think our worst squad) under Wenger and we'll probably finish 6th.

[selassie]

Behave. This is by far our worst team (I don't think our worst squad) under Wenger and we'll probably finish 6th.

The actual quality of the individuals within our team is very high IMO. I honestly believe this team could be a certified top 4 side if it was organised and we actually had defined roles / tactics etc.

I agree the that it is the worst performing team but I truly believe this team has a few more levels if managed correctly.

[Penguin]

Our squad isn't that bad. I wont pretend this lot are great but they would be doing a LOT better if they weren't being managed by a moron. They look ten times worse than they actually are.

[IBK]

The actual quality of the individuals within our team is very high IMO. I honestly believe this team could be a certified top 4 side if it was organised and we actually had defined roles / tactics etc.

I agree the that it is the worst performing team but I truly believe this team has a few more levels if managed correctly.

Definitely with you there.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Behave. This is by far our worst team (I don't think our worst squad) under Wenger and we'll probably finish 6th.

Don't be ridiculous Letters.

We regularly finished top four with filth like Almunia, Denilson, Song, Squillachi, Vermealan, Chamakh, Bapitisa, Eboue etc etc all regularly featuring for us.


The current squad's actually really talented and has better all round quality than the squads during the early Emirates period, but it's heavily unbalanced and lacks any direction or purpose. It's just Wenger's completely lost it and Spurs & Liverpool have got their shit together so we no longer can somehow weasel our way into the top four despite being crap.

[Letters]

Don't be ridiculous Letters.

We regularly finished top four with filth like Almunia, Denilson, Song, Squillachi, Vermealan, Chamakh, Bapitisa, Eboue etc etc all regularly featuring for us.


The current squad's actually really talented and has better all round quality than the squads during the early Emirates period, but it's heavily unbalanced and lacks any direction or purpose. It's just Wenger's completely lost it and Spurs & Liverpool have got their shit together so we no longer can somehow weasel our way into the top four despite being crap.

...I literally said it's our worst team, not our worst squad :blink:
What are you even arguing against?

[KSE Comedy Club]

...I literally said it's our worst team, not our worst squad :blink:
What are you even arguing against?

TEG: 'Letters, you Bastard!!'

Letters: 'Why?'

TEG: 'just because'

:haha: :haha:

[The Emirates Gallactico]

...I literally said it's our worst team, not our worst squad :blink:
What are you even arguing against?

What do you think makes up a team? Players from our squad. This isn't the worst set of players that Wenger has had .... far from it.

All the aforementioned regularly started for when they were around and when we were consistently finishing fourth.