Europa League Final Autopsy

[Marc Overmars]

This club. :haha:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fuck them.

[SMatthews]

Anyone think we need to improve the defence for next season?

[Marc Overmars]

We were outclassed in truth, it wasn't even a contest in the second half. The sad thing is I really had high hopes for tonight but of course this flimsy, sorry excuse of a team once again proves itself to be a joke.

Ozil put in his most definitive performance yet. A performance that defines every reason why he should be sold.

The last 2 months of the season have been bullshit and Emery needs to carry the can for the collapse in the league and now this. Not good at all and his job ought to be on the line next season now.

Fuck the lot of them. I wouldn't be sorry to see any of them go except for an obvious few.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Just stay in Baku.

[Chippy]

Fuck them.
Too right. Fucking useless.
One more season for Dick Emery to see if he can improve the zombies left behind by Wenger.
All we need now is those cunts down the road to win the CL. FFS.

[Özim]

Thought we had a good chance given Emerys' record in the EL, so really disappointed with this, it's just more of the same really another beating when it matters, Chelsea outclassed us.

In truth this team needs to be dismantled entirely, there's probably about 5 -6 players worth keeping, Leno, Torreira, Aubameyang, Lacazette, Bellerin and Guendouzi, the rest can be sold and with them hopefully all that's left of this bottling mentality that came about with the previous administration.

Frankly this season has been poor, we've been rubbish in the league when it mattered and if we're honest average in the EL as well losing games against nobodies.

The manager has to take some blame as well, not enough has changed and the collapse at the end of this season has been unacceptable, personally I'm not impressed with Emery he's got a lot to prove and I'm not sure he's up to the job, his job should definitely be at risk as this season has been a failiure and yet the guys at the top are telling us they're delighted with him, what kind of message does that send out.

Seems to me Emery might get years like his predecessor based on those words, only at Arsenal do you need to achieve nothing to keep your job, incidentally this was Sarris' first ever trophy, another first for us....

Right now this is a sorry excuse for a football club.

[Mac76]

I just hope Rail, Vinai use this to explain to the Kroenkes why we need significant investment, ironically the 4-1 could help us in that way, but it's still a really shit and embarassing result

All that's left is to pray for a Liverpool victory in the CL

[Marc Overmars]

The hierarchy won’t do shit.

This club might be finished on a competitive level for the next decade.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I just hope Rail, Vinai use this to explain to the Kroenkes why we need significant investment, ironically the 4-1 could help us in that way, but it's still a really shit and embarassing result

All that's left is to pray for a Liverpool victory in the CL

We’ve had countless results worse than this embarrassment. I’ve lost count how many times we’ve had a result where someone, myself included has looked for the silver lining of it being a result that could possibly lead to change.

How many times have we been here? Not just beaten, but absolutely bent over and humiliated? What has or will ever be done about it?

If there is any change, I promise you, it will be for the worse for as long as that bloodsucking parasite owns this club.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Frankly, we got what we deserved, another humiliation for the whole world to bear witness to.

To think we waited so many years for another European final just to make ourselves look like muppets. To think I laughed so hard at Watford !

We don't learn lessons at Arsenal, we never do, and anytime people try to point out our frailties we get all defensive and high mighty; just like a lot of us did to Cech for pointing out the obvious this week.

As for the match, Emery started our strongest team (except for maybe Bellerin) and that fact alone should scare all of us.

Tactically he was a bit slow today, he should have responded with changes once we went one down but to be honest, no matter how I play it in my head, I can't see these bunch of players and this manager winning that match and carrying the cup with the CL spot; it would be to great a leap for their fragile minds to fathom. I dont think Chelsea were that much better than us on the day, but hey, big clubs just do enough to win, especially when it matters.

So again we stare at dissappointment like we have been doing since Barca, our last great hurrah... we were like 20 mins away from glory with only 10 men against the best team in the world- compare that to losing 4-1 against a deflated Chelsea with a manager struggling to keep his job despite wrapping up CL football..... wow, these are really dark times at Arsenal FC.

[Marc Overmars]

There are no standards at this club and that comes from a lack of real football men at the top. Chelsea finished 3rd and won this but could well give their manager the boot. If Emery delivered what Sarri has he’d be our lord and saviour. Levels...

Say what you want about the hierarchy at certain other clubs but at least they have people at the top who are driven by footballing excellence and not the clubs business profile.

[Letters]

Thought we had a good chance given Emerys' record in the EL, so really disappointed with this, it's just more of the same really another beating when it matters, Chelsea outclassed us.

In truth this team needs to be dismantled entirely, there's probably about 5 -6 players worth keeping, Leno, Torreira, Aubameyang, Lacazette, Bellerin and Guendouzi, the rest can be sold and with them hopefully all that's left of this bottling mentality that came about with the previous administration.

Frankly this season has been poor, we've been rubbish in the league when it mattered and if we're honest average in the EL as well losing games against nobodies.

The manager has to take some blame as well, not enough has changed and the collapse at the end of this season has been unacceptable, personally I'm not impressed with Emery he's got a lot to prove and I'm not sure he's up to the job, his job should definitely be at risk as this season has been a failiure and yet the guys at the top are telling us they're delighted with him, what kind of message does that send out.

Seems to me Emery might get years like his predecessor based on those words, only at Arsenal do you need to achieve nothing to keep your job, incidentally this was Sarris' first ever trophy, another first for us....

Right now this is a sorry excuse for a football club.

Fuck. See what you've reduced me to, Arsenal? I'm agreeing with Zim!
Zim!

:ilt:

[Letters]

As discussed, I'm in the US and it kicked off at 3pm here.
I was in the office then but wasn't too involved in the meeting going on around me so managed to stream some of it, saw most of the first half and a bit of the second.
Actually thought we started brightly, we bossed the first 30 minutes. After that Chelsea got into it and they had 2 good chances which Cech saved well.
I saw the Giroud goal but then had to leave the office so lost connectivity. By the time I got back to my hotel it was 4-1 :blink:
What the piss happened there?

Actually thought we'd win this one. I don't think Chelsea are a team to fear and given Emery's record thought we had a good chance.

As a season...well, we were marginally better in the league but the collapse at the end was pathetic, top 4 was there for the taking and we buggered that right up.
Tonight...well, one shouldn't judge a season by one game and overall our run in the competition was good but we really shouldn't be getting dicked like that.
I can take a narrow defeat but a thumping like that isn't good enough.

Emery is under pressure next season, he has to deliver more or #EmeryOut.

[LDG]

Says a lot when your best players were your retiring goalkeeper, and two subs.

I used to be gutted when we got beat. Now I’m just angry.

The sport is one I don’t recognise anymore due to the money in the game, but sadly we have the worst of all worlds when it comes to the bigger clubs....a club owned by a billionaire, who is only content with harvesting all of the cash out of the club, and taking it’s soul with it.

Yeah, if the shoe was on the other foot and all that. But seriously? Football? Enjoyable? Fuck off.

[I am invisible]

The worst thing about this for me is that I only checked the news to find out the result before going to bed... and then just shrugged. Angry, ranting fans are one thing - at least it shows they still care - but when it gets to the point where you’re just not that bothered anymore... that can’t be good for the club?

[Xhaka Can’t]

The worst thing about this for me is that I only checked the news to find out the result before going to bed... and then just shrugged. Angry, ranting fans are one thing - at least it shows they still care - but when it gets to the point where you’re just not that bothered anymore... that can’t be good for the club?

It starts and ends with the ownership. If the owner isn’t proactive, doesn’t show leadership or demonstrate passion and a desire to fight for this club, then nobody within it will. Anyone within the club that does show fight and passion will be driven out through frustration whilst surrounded by complacency and disinterest. We’ve seen this for a long time already. We had years of warnings before we approached and subsequently passed the tipping point.

All passion, energy and desire has been driven out of the club and it is now even at the point where a significant part of the fan base are engulfed in this lack of interest.

In my opinion, there is nothing that will, or can be done, until Kroenke is gone.

[Marc Overmars]

Emery is under pressure next season, he has to deliver more or #EmeryOut.

I don't think he's shown anything as a coach that suggests he can get his players to go above and beyond what they're capable of. He's only contracted for another 2 seasons so realistically he needs to earn himself a new deal next year and the only way he will deserve that is CL qualification.

The problem we have though is that no top coach will want to work with the financial restrictions we have. We're snookered for the foreseeable future.

[I am invisible]

It starts and ends with the ownership. If the owner isn’t proactive, doesn’t show leadership or demonstrate passion and a desire to fight for this club, then nobody within it will. Anyone within the club that does show fight and passion will be driven out through frustration whilst surrounded by complacency and disinterest. We’ve seen this for a long time already. We had years of warnings before we approached and subsequently passed the tipping point.

All passion, energy and desire has been driven out of the club and it is now even at the point where a significant part of the fan base are engulfed in this lack of interest.

In my opinion, there is nothing that will, or can be done, until Kroenke is gone.
To be fair, it’s not all on the club - in my case a big part of it is simply down to where my life is right now: I have more responsibility at work than I used to have in my teens and 20s, so I have less time during the day to idly chat football; I commute. I do all the cooking when I get in; and I have 2 little girls who deserve whatever’s left of my attention up until they’re asleep. Basically I end up with maybe half an hour to myself at the end of each day, and I just refuse to gamble that precious half hour on a game of football any more - it has too much potential to ruin my day.

(Oh, and I lost my old man back in 2012, too - being able to follow the club with him was a big part of why I enjoyed being more invested in it.)

Don’t get me wrong, I’m actually quite happy being a casual, armchair fan these days - it’s far less stressful than following what we’re doing 24/7 - but even so, I’d still like to care about our results a little bit more than this!

And you’re right - that apathy starts at the top. It starts at the top and then just keeps going. The owners don’t care. The CEO and MD don’t care. The coach might care a little, but he’s the least permanent member of staff there. And most of the players clearly don’t care. Very hard to muster the energy to care yourself when you get the sense that no one at the club does...

[Xhaka Can’t]

To be fair, it’s not all on the club - in my case a big part of it is simply down to where my life is right now: I have more responsibility at work than I used to have in my teens and 20s, so I have less time during the day to idly chat football; I commute. I do all the cooking when I get in; and I have 2 little girls who deserve whatever’s left of my attention up until they’re asleep. Basically I end up with maybe half an hour to myself at the end of each day, and I just refuse to gamble that precious half hour on a game of football any more - it has too much potential to ruin my day.

(Oh, and I lost my old man back in 2012, too - being able to follow the club with him was a big part of why I enjoyed being more invested in it.)

Don’t get me wrong, I’m actually quite happy being a casual, armchair fan these days - it’s far less stressful than following what we’re doing 24/7 - but even so, I’d still like to care about our results a little bit more than this!

And you’re right - that apathy starts at the top. It starts at the top and then just keeps going. The owners don’t care. The CEO and MD don’t care. The coach might care a little, but he’s the least permanent member of staff there. And most of the players clearly don’t care. Very hard to muster the energy to care yourself when you get the sense that no one at the club does...

You’ve got your priorities completely right. Regardless of how the team is doing.

[Globalgunner]

There is only so much you can do with the team we have, Lots of has been and never have beens in this team. That was the best team we could have put out minus probably Leno, Holding and Bellerin. We have no defence and a weak midfield. a midfield that has Xhaka as the first name in it is going to be bang average ab inito. Without significantly better personnel or a change in the coaching crew, next season will look remarkably just like this one. We recruited the wrong manager to fix the sorry mess that Wenger left behind. We need to get the Wolves manger before he goes to Barca next season. NES is superior to Emery in every way.

This is a team without a single game changer in the entire squad....Not one.

[I am invisible]

I don't think he's shown anything as a coach that suggests he can get his players to go above and beyond what they're capable of. He's only contracted for another 2 seasons so realistically he needs to earn himself a new deal next year and the only way he will deserve that is CL qualification.

The problem we have though is that no top coach will want to work with the financial restrictions we have. We're snookered for the foreseeable future.
I think he’s shown glimpses of interesting ideas, and we have strung some impressive patches together - the problem he has is this millstone of inherited players that he has tied around his neck. Before he can even attempt to coach his own ideas into those players, he first has to coach all of their bad habits out of them, teach them tactical basics (which he really shouldn’t have to at this level), and eradicate the meak acceptance of mediocrity that has become the dominant mindset and culture within the group.

If I thought there was any hope at all of him being able to do any of that, then I’d be happy to ride it out, but at this point, I honestly believe it would be better for us to get rid of as many of the worst offenders as possible, and give Emery the blankest canvas we can to work with. If that means a heavy reliance on our younger players and a couple of years of being well out of the running, then so be it...

[Özim]

Personally for the 1st time in years I'm really disappointed because despite everything this was a European trophy (I know lots of people see it as a tin pot trophy) and a possible sign of change after an indifferent season, I know this is a secondary european trophy but do you know what we haven't won one for so long and it would have got us in the CL, the money from it and a chance to get rid of a lot of these losers.

Sadly we lost, convincingly in the end (could have been even worse) and that ended any hope of change we might have. Unfortunately as someone said it comes from the top, the owner just couldn't care less, the people below him are publicly praising a manager who really hasn't done a lot and the players to be honest probably will go off on their hols and forget about this as they don't have the hunger and aren't winners.

When it comes with the manager, he didn't get a lot of money last summer, I'll give him that, but then he's not really changed that much, if we look at the team can anyone tell me that much has changed in the way we play or perform, if it has it's very hard to see. Emery brought in Suarez in January which was an utterly pointless signing, he wasn't any good and barely played. As for the collapse at the end of the season, no excuses really, he should have been able to affect the players in some way to stop the rut, instead all and sundry were beating us.

Even in the EL we've been average most of the time, it's not exactly been an impressive display. Special mention for AMN as well, 3 errors 3 goals, should have been off way before that to be honest, you can't make 3 errors leading to 3 goals in one game. IMO he's a rubbish defender, if he has to play it has to be in midfield and if he does he needs to perform or be scrapped.

Honestly don't know where we go from here, looks like we'll have no money so we'll probably see a lot of these bottlers again, can we even sell most of these guys and if we do it'll be for peanuts.

Another sad day for AFC.

[Marc Overmars]

Giroud taking the piss.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/30/olivier-giroud-mocks-arsenal-celebrations-chelsea-team-bus-europa-league-final-victory-9735512/

An Arsenal man indeed.

[hobson's choice]

I think he’s shown glimpses of interesting ideas, and we have strung some impressive patches together - the problem he has is this millstone of inherited players that he has tied around his neck. Before he can even attempt to coach his own ideas into those players, he first has to coach all of their bad habits out of them, teach them tactical basics (which he really shouldn’t have to at this level), and eradicate the meak acceptance of mediocrity that has become the dominant mindset and culture within the group.

If I thought there was any hope at all of him being able to do any of that, then I’d be happy to ride it out, but at this point, I honestly believe it would be better for us to get rid of as many of the worst offenders as possible, and give Emery the blankest canvas we can to work with. If that means a heavy reliance on our younger players and a couple of years of being well out of the running, then so be it...

Emery is not the coach to give a blank canvas to. He's never been great and he will never be great. This season is a true reflection on who he is a manager.

He ain't good enough and he never has been. He's a Europa League manager, simple as.

[Bumble]

We were pretty good for 40 minutes. But once they scored in 2nd half we were dross. The fact our glimmer of hope lasted 3 minutes typifies arsenal.

Look at united the problems they have had replacing Ferguson despite the money spent and he left them as champions.

I fear we will go through a fair few managers before being competitive and with a 40m budget we might have to wait for the cyclical nature of football to help us.

[Bumble]

Emery is not the coach to give a blank canvas to. He's never been great and he will never be great. This season is a true reflection on who he is a manager.

He ain't good enough and he never has been. He's a Europa League manager, simple as.

We are an europa league club.

Perhaps we need to use the youth players. Give them a chance. Just need to find a manager who can develop them.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Giroud taking the piss.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/30/olivier-giroud-mocks-arsenal-celebrations-chelsea-team-bus-europa-league-final-victory-9735512/

An Arsenal man indeed.

What is an “Arsenal man” these days?

And, who was the last one you’d call an “Arsenal man”?

Serious questions because I can’t think of a current example.

[Özim]

I think he’s shown glimpses of interesting ideas, and we have strung some impressive patches together - the problem he has is this millstone of inherited players that he has tied around his neck. Before he can even attempt to coach his own ideas into those players, he first has to coach all of their bad habits out of them, teach them tactical basics (which he really shouldn’t have to at this level), and eradicate the meak acceptance of mediocrity that has become the dominant mindset and culture within the group.

If I thought there was any hope at all of him being able to do any of that, then I’d be happy to ride it out, but at this point, I honestly believe it would be better for us to get rid of as many of the worst offenders as possible, and give Emery the blankest canvas we can to work with. If that means a heavy reliance on our younger players and a couple of years of being well out of the running, then so be it...

I'm not too sure what Emery has shown if I'm being honest, we started the season unable to perform in the 1st half (this went on for months) despite winning games, we ended the season losing game after game and not knowing where our next win would come from, even against 10 man Watford we got completely dominated and were lucky to scrape a win.

He's not improved the defence at all, the style of play isn't that great to watch, off the ball we're no better than we were and the same players get away with error after error (AMN last night) with few repercussions.

I'm starting to feel like he's just not having enough of an impact, he's not enough of a disciplinarian, IMO we needed someone tougher, someone who wouldn't accept some of the performances, he's not covered himself in glory this season, I understand the players are average but still we should be seeing more of a system and more of an obvious impact.

Even last night he wasn't particularly angry, he seemed to say we're a work in progress, which is true bu 4-1 in a final isn't acceptable.

Based on what we've seen this season and his career, he doesn't on the face of it appear to be a top manager, he's got another season but he really needs to show something more concrete, the team needs to have a clearer identity brought in by him, right now it's not that different to what was there before and that's just not good enough.

[Marc Overmars]

What is an “Arsenal man” these days?

And, who was the last one you’d call an “Arsenal man”?

Serious questions because I can’t think of a current example.

No idea, the club has no identity anymore and the team is very hard to like.

The whole thing needs to be demolished and levelled before we can even think about moving forward. Losing is firmly embedded in the DNA of this club now.

[Özim]

Always was worried about Hazard, he's a world class player who affects games and makes things happen, we should have our own in Ozil but to be honest mentally the guy seems to have signed off, he seems to lack any real hunger to win or perform these days, he's a shadow of the player he once was.

When Hazard was available we decided to sign Gervinho, granted Hazard cost more, but Gervinho has come and gone without doing anything whilst Hazard has proven his quality.

We just need some other billionaire to buy us to save us from this mess, unfortunately noone seems interested in buying us, can't blame them though the club is overvalued, how is a club that wins nothing and fails so often worth over 2 billion?

[Globalgunner]

The only reason we are worth more than $2.5billion is because there are plenty of Billionaires out there who would gladly cough out even 4 billion to buy this club. Sadly Kroenke aint selling. Now if only Mackenzie Bezos would make Wiggy an offer he couldnt refuse

[Özim]

The only reason we are worth more than $2.5billion is because there are plenty of Billionaires out there who would gladly cough out even 4 billion to buy this club. Sadly Kroenke aint selling. Now if only Mackenzie Bezos would make Wiggy an offer he couldnt refuse

That's the point, they won't, Usmanov was the only one but he own a big chunk, noone else has shown the slightest interest. Kroenke would sell if he got enough he's a businessman after all, he never will though so we're stuck.

The likes of Newcastle are getting bought out now, won't be long before we slide behind them with their millions.

[Marc Overmars]

Let’s face it, Kroenke isn’t going anywhere and will remain here for a very long time. He knows he’s hit the jackpot with us.

We’re a real sad state of a “top” club and the downward spiral is only going to continue unless someone at the top suddenly gains an interest on sporting matters rather than business.

[Ralpheroo72]

No idea, the club has no identity anymore and the team is very hard to like.

The whole thing needs to be demolished and levelled before we can even think about moving forward. Losing is firmly embedded in the DNA of this club now.
:gp:

[Munchies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl19eb6HFbk&t=232s

DT raging at the fan in the back :haha:

[Özim]

DT raging at the fan in the back :haha:

Yes it was this guy.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiaRsnw8oXI

[Özim]

This club has made to many mistakes, bearing in mind Kroenke was never going to invest and we were set on a sustainable model we absolutely should have got rid of Wenger years before, by allowing him (and Gazidis) to stay on our cash reserves basically disappeared due to really poor transfer deals and contracts meaning that now the new manager has no money and no real assets to raise any.

The decision to bring in a new manager was done at the worst time for us really, had we let Wenger go a few years ago we could now have rebuilt, as it stands now though we've barely got any money too and have a squad of average players we need to replace.

The club has rewarded failure for too long, giving new contracts to players, pay rises and big money to people who didn't deserve it, we're paying the price now and the only ones who really seem to care are the fans.

[dostoy]

Yes I agree Zim.

Wenger should never have signed Ozil in the first place, never let his and Alexis's contract run down and then paid Ozil 350k a week to stay.

I'm sure Emery wants Ramsey to stay but we cannot have this situation where players run their contracts down and expect 300k a week to stay.

Wenger has so much to answer for.He signed moderate players for big money and let too many contracts run down.

WTF was he thinking ?

A lot of players now need to be kicked out and replaced with younger, hungrier players who are not big stars yet.

I live in Norfolk and my local team which is Norwich, sold at least 2 of their best players in 2018 and replaced them with lots of very cheap, young, hungry players.

They won the Championship and are now in the PL and will be getting at least 170 million now.

That is what needs to be done but on a much larger scale, as Arsenal need to get rid of maybe 8 players.

[SMatthews]

Auba has two years left on his contract. Do we sell if he doesn’t sign an extension? That’s the promise from the suits up above apparently.

[selassie]

Even I didn't think this team could stoop to such low levels. Last night and the end of season has been nothing short of a "Car Crash".

I honestly don't know what else to say.

[Letters]

Even I didn't think this team could stoop to such low levels.

Really? Have you not been watching over the last few years?

[fakeyank]

The worst part of this defeat or about following Arsenal these days for me is the fact that I just dont care..

[dazthegooner]

Wouldn't go as far as not caring tis just that knowing there is nothing we can do about we have to reply on the parasites that now run (used the term run loosely) the club. I think it's going to take a few years before we can even start thinking about the champions league again unless something drastic happens in the near future.

[Mac76]

Auba has two years left on his contract. Do we sell if he doesn’t sign an extension? That’s the promise from the suits up above apparently.

Everyone will be after him and Laca now - and if the club doesn't shiw greater ambition why should they stay?

[SMatthews]

Everyone will be after him and Laca now - and if the club doesn't shiw greater ambition why should they stay?

Ultimately the club is the one in control of what happens next and if they tell them to stay, they stay. I’m not interested in defending the personal interests of players until they really earn that right.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I think he should have another year....but I wouldn't be distraught if we parted ways with Mr Ebeeneezer Ebeening Emery.

[I am invisible]

Same. He’s inherited a right mess, no questions, so he should probably get another year... but he also hasn’t shown us much to suggest that there’s an elite coach in there either, yet.

[Marc Overmars]

Yes it would be churlish to dump him at this point, however you'd be hard pressed to find fans who genuinely believe from what we've seen this season, that he is the man to transform our team.

I think our style of play is worse than it was under Wenger, we concede too many chances and also don't create enough. Our conversion rate has been above average all season so we've managed to get by, however it isn't sustainable and we ran out of ideas too many times and it eventually cost us.

Emery should get this summer to make a few changes but a decision on his contract will need to be made next year and if we haven't qualified for the CL then it will be time to look elsewhere.

[selassie]

Really? Have you not been watching over the last few years?

Well I have seen improvements in the team this season in the big games, quite big improvements. Don’t get me wrong, this team still has lots of problems, but our end of season performances were totally unacceptable. Emery needs to be questioned on it, he won’t be though.

[Özim]

I think this is the problem with Emery, I can appreciate he had a rubbish squad to start off and didn't get anywhere near enough money so he gets a bye on that score, problem is I can't really see much of a positive change since Wenger left, he could at least get the team to work harder off the ball and maybe adjust our style to something more effective, instead he seems to be shifting between a back 5 and a back 4 all the time, is constantly chopping and changing and there's been some really odd Wengeresque team selections as well. The start of the season was odd as well, our inability to be in the lead for games for months.

On top of that we had the Suarez thing in January, a player he knew and yet he signed him and barely played him (was an odd signing in the 1st place). Then there's the collapse at the end of the season which he has to take responsibility for, it wasn't like we were playing the top clubs, a lot of those were smaller clubs we should beat, especially at home.

As I said haven't been impressed with his words since the final either, when you can beaten 4-1 you don't come out and praise the team, you recognise it was a poor performance, result and unacceptable to play at that level in a final.

There's definite question marks over this guy, Neymar walked all over him at PSG and it seems to me here the players are getting away with way too much, not convinced he's tough enough to handle the players, it shouldn't be hard to chase the ball like Klopp managed to introduce at Liverpool, that's the parallel here, Klopp maybe didn't get them to the top immediately, but the changes he made were very apparent and in 3-4 seasons every season his team developed.

[SMatthews]

Yes it would be churlish to dump him at this point, however you'd be hard pressed to find fans who genuinely believe from what we've seen this season, that he is the man to transform our team.

I think our style of play is worse than it was under Wenger, we concede too many chances and also don't create enough. Our conversion rate has been above average all season so we've managed to get by, however it isn't sustainable and we ran out of ideas too many times and it eventually cost us.

Emery should get this summer to make a few changes but a decision on his contract will need to be made next year and if we haven't qualified for the CL then it will be time to look elsewhere.

Definitely another year and if we're not back in the CL, then it's time for a change.

The way I look at is in 2017 we finished a point off the top four. Then we fell away from even challenging in Wenger's last year. Emery has got us back to within a point and now has to take the next step forward of getting us back into the top four. He's done it with mostly Wenger's squad and into the Europa final - one step further than Wenger managed. He won't have much to work with over the summer, but if he can get this current team only one win away from the CL (on two counts), then there are no excuses for not doing so with more of his own men in his squad. The first season buffer is over and it's all on him now to take the club forward.

[Mac76]

I think this is the problem with Emery, I can appreciate he had a rubbish squad to start off and didn't get anywhere near enough money so he gets a bye on that score, problem is I can't really see much of a positive change since Wenger left, he could at least get the team to work harder off the ball and maybe adjust our style to something more effective, instead he seems to be shifting between a back 5 and a back 4 all the time, is constantly chopping and changing and there's been some really odd Wengeresque team selections as well. The start of the season was odd as well, our inability to be in the lead for games for months.

On top of that we had the Suarez thing in January, a player he knew and yet he signed him and barely played him (was an odd signing in the 1st place). Then there's the collapse at the end of the season which he has to take responsibility for, it wasn't like we were playing the top clubs, a lot of those were smaller clubs we should beat, especially at home.

As I said haven't been impressed with his words since the final either, when you can beaten 4-1 you don't come out and praise the team, you recognise it was a poor performance, result and unacceptable to play at that level in a final.

There's definite question marks over this guy, Neymar walked all over him at PSG and it seems to me here the players are getting away with way too much, not convinced he's tough enough to handle the players, it shouldn't be hard to chase the ball like Klopp managed to introduce at Liverpool, that's the parallel here, Klopp maybe didn't get them to the top immediately, but the changes he made were very apparent and in 3-4 seasons every season his team developed.

yes to all of that - good posting

i think the team have got used to him now and see him as a pushover - he tried to assert his authority over Ozil but i think Ozil's basically won, playing when he wants and still on his big contract.

Emery's lineup against Palace costs us top four alone, plus there was the overly-caution approach over the Christmas period which definiely costus a few points here and there

[Mac76]

Definitely another year and if we're not back in the CL, then it's time for a change.

The way I look at is in 2017 we finished a point off the top four. Then we fell away from even challenging in Wenger's last year. Emery has got us back to within a point and now has to take the next step forward of getting us back into the top four. He's done it with mostly Wenger's squad and into the Europa final - one step further than Wenger managed. He won't have much to work with over the summer, but if he can get this current team only one win away from the CL (on two counts), then there are no excuses for not doing so with more of his own men in his squad. The first season buffer is over and it's all on him now to take the club forward.

Wenger didn't have Laca and Auba or Leno - Emery has had them and not done it - though he needs allowances due to the injuries to Bellerin and Holding which exposed our total lack of any depth in the squad - but his signing Suarez as the solution wasn't exactly encouraging...

[SMatthews]

Wenger didn't have Laca and Auba or Leno - Emery has had them and not done it - though he needs allowances due to the injuries to Bellerin and Holding which exposed our total lack of any depth in the squad - but his signing Suarez as the solution wasn't exactly encouraging...

Didn’t Wenger buy Laca and Auba? The former has played much better this season than he did under Wenger. And while Leno looks promising, let’s not pretend he is a standout player in our team. He’s had his issues this year. The Suarez thing is minor. He was never hailed as ‘the solution’, only as backup. Emery will be judged on what he does during the summer in terms of recruitment - every manager brings in duff players

[dostoy]

Its not just about recruitment, its also about how many of these useless players he gets rid of.

I presume Cech, Kos and Leichsteiner are out for certain.

Ramsey's gone which is a shame but I understand it.

He must get rid of Monreal, Mustafi, Ozil, Elneney and Jenkinson.

The loan players will return and he must see what he's got.

A new left back is a must.

[KSE Comedy Club]

My main concern is that we had plenty of reports and plenty of articles from people, before the season started, telling us how much of a tactician Emery is and how long he spends analysing every minute detail of every player and opposition he comes up against - and yet he fucks up the lineup and tactics in our most important final to date.

Ozil should never have started. 3 at the back and a 5 man midfield was never going to work against chavs 4-3-3. Iwobi and Willock should have started the game on the wings to give us some pace. The bold subs he made at half time during some games at the start of the season completely dried up and in the final he made them all too late.

Overall for someone who is so particular about every detail, I am astonished how badly he failed when it counted.

It's happened in the PL as well too many times as others have already said.

[SMatthews]

I think that's revisionism at its best.

No one considered using Willock as a starting player for the entire season. And Iwobi has been hammered for much of the season for his lack of contribution.

Emery had subs lined up at 2-0, which was too late, but then AMN thought it would've been a good idea to give them a third, which further delayed the subs. Granted, a sub should've been made a 1-0 as Ozil was not in the game at all, rather than waiting for us to go two behind.

But let's not pretend that Willock or Iwobi have ever been thought of as a solution for the team by any fan.

[Marc Overmars]

To be fair Iwobi was a legitimate option, mainly because Ozil is such a ghost in these games. You have to think a more direct option would have served us better.

Willock is definitely revisionism, he's played 6 or 7 games this season. :lol:

The player we missed most was Ramsey. Sadly.

[Özim]

On top of that AMN should never have still be on the pitch after 2 errors leading to 2 goals. Think Emery was too slow with the subs, we conceded not long after the 2nd half started and when Chelsea were dominating he should have made a chance, there's a lot parallels between Emery and Wenger, subs too late, defending the team after getting thrashed, sticking with players who are rubbish, bit worrying for me.

AMN should never been played as a full back ever again, the guy has shown he is incapapble of playing there, he's a midfielder play him there or sell him.

Chelsea though came out fired up in the 2nd half and outclassed us, question is why couldn't Emery get the same reaction from the players, we didn't get a shot on goal for a long time, despite a half decent half an hour in the 1st half.

You look at Emery and how we had that horrendous collapse in the league where we could barely pick up a point, how we struggled for so long in the 1st half of games in the 1st part of the season and how we could barely win away and have to question if he knows how to affect games and can get a reaction from his team, because the repetitive nature of some of these issues suggests he can't.

[Özim]

To be fair Iwobi was a legitimate option, mainly because Ozil is such a ghost in these games. You have to think a more direct option would have served us better.

Willock is definitely revisionism, he's played 6 or 7 games this season. :lol:

The player we missed most was Ramsey. Sadly.

The subs bench highlighted how rubbish our squad is to be honest. ESM should have never gone on load however, he'd been decent when he'd been given a chance and given our squad he would have been an option, instead we got lumbered with Kim Källström mark II (Suarez) which again is Emerys' fault.

[Marc Overmars]

I think for the first time in as long as I can remember, Arsenal fans are pretty much unanimous with their opinion on the state of the club. The squad needs gutting, it probably won't happen because it's not practical but it's definitely time to say goodbye to at least half of the squad.

[selassie]

I think for the first time in as long as I can remember, Arsenal fans are pretty much unanimous with their opinion on the state of the club. The squad needs gutting, it probably won't happen because it's not practical but it's definitely time to say goodbye to at least half of the squad.

I think it's time to blood youth, we clearly don't have a budget to rebuild and take the team to the next level. Emery is going to have to earn his corn and promote from within.

[SMatthews]

I think it's time to blood youth, we clearly don't have a budget to rebuild and take the team to the next level. Emery is going to have to earn his corn and promote from within.

I think the idea sounds good in principle but it wasn’t too long ago the kids were being savaged under Wenger. It would need a complete reset from the fans to deal with the frustration of relying on kids. Does our fan base (online at least) have that in them?

[SMatthews]

To be fair Iwobi was a legitimate option, mainly because Ozil is such a ghost in these games. You have to think a more direct option would have served us better.

Willock is definitely revisionism, he's played 6 or 7 games this season. :lol:

The player we missed most was Ramsey. Sadly.

He was - but probably not as a starter. He’s barely started a game in recent months and I don’t think many fans had a case to argue he should’ve started more recently as he’s been poor. Then again, so was everyone else recently. What he did when he came on was a surprise to everyone - he even scored for once.

But yes, Ramsey was the big miss in the game as he was key when we beat them earlier in the season. But his injury was symbolic of his whole career here to be honest

[fakeyank]

Allegri is available... as much as I want to give Emery one more season, we cant be behind the 8 ball when a top manager becomes available. We made that mistake when Klopp was available but we decided to stick with Le Dinosaur. I wouldnt sweat it if he gets another season, but like many posters have pointed, I dont see anything in Emery that suggests he is going to be the next Pochettino or Klopp.

[Özim]

I think it's time to blood youth, we clearly don't have a budget to rebuild and take the team to the next level. Emery is going to have to earn his corn and promote from within.

I actually wouldn't mind us signing some younger players, not the dross Wenger use to sign all the time, nobodies from unknown clubs who'd never played a game, but youngsters like the guy we were after from PSG or young players who have played a bit and performed well and shown ability.

The reason Wengers' youth policy never worked is because he continuously signed players who were 15-16 who had never shown they were up to the job and as we know when it comes to spotting talent he was way off, he missed out on all the decent kids and signed the duds.

We've got 1 or 2 decent young players ourselves, but not enough to build a team with, that 10 year youth team plan went totally pearshaped as well, it's years since we've produced anybody half decent, the likes of Chelsea and Man City sign up the best youngsters early and they seem to turn out pretty good so maybe we should follow their lead.

[Mac76]

I dont see anything in Emery that suggests he is going to be the next Pochettino or Klopp.

As much as Flopp up to now has been a loser, he's got a lot more to show for himself than Poncetino, who frankly is living off some players which as far as i know he didn't sign, who happen to have some good cohesion in some games but when it counts so far (and we all pray beyond tomorrow) have won jack shit and actually thrown away good positiona.

He's just lucky people like K**t and Dire don't have the imagination to go abroad and actually learn something

If Pep hadn't been stupid enough to overcommit the first team spuds wouldn't even have been there tomorrow.

Ponce is a fake and while on one level i'd like him to leave spuds, on another i hope he stays and continues to lead them to failure

I think he is an overrated tosser tbh

[Marc Overmars]

They’re in the CL final having not signed a player for 2 years and have half the wage bill of most clubs they’re competing with.

Tosser I guess. Overrated, I’m not sure.

[Marc Overmars]

Sarri is leaving Chelsea. :rolleyes:

[Mac76]

They’re in the CL final having not signed a player for 2 years and have half the wage bill of most clubs they’re competing with.

Tosser I guess. Overrated, I’m not sure.

You agree then that it wasn't down to his signings, i think their presence in the final is similar to Leicester in the PL when they won it (though hopefully it won't take them that far) there's been a lot of underperforming and big teams cancelling each other out this year in the CL

Or it's like Ingerspuds fluking their way to the semis in the WC (an appropriate acronym given spuds' stadium)

Let's just hope Flopp gets it right for once, and we have to hope the officials have a good game and don't let spuds get away with murder like they normally do

[SMatthews]

As much as Flopp up to now has been a loser, he's got a lot more to show for himself than Poncetino, who frankly is living off some players which as far as i know he didn't sign, who happen to have some good cohesion in some games but when it counts so far (and we all pray beyond tomorrow) have won jack shit and actually thrown away good positiona.

He's just lucky people like K**t and Dire don't have the imagination to go abroad and actually learn something

If Pep hadn't been stupid enough to overcommit the first team spuds wouldn't even have been there tomorrow.

Ponce is a fake and while on one level i'd like him to leave spuds, on another i hope he stays and continues to lead them to failure

I think he is an overrated tosser tbh

As much as I hate everything to do with Spurs that is one of most daft analysis of their improvement I’ve seen.

[SMatthews]

Sarri is leaving Chelsea. :rolleyes:

That’s brilliant and can’t blame him really. Especially with Juve calling. They must see something in him.

I think after the game he dedicated the win to Napoli fans :lol:

And given their history that’s the best way to deal with Chelsea. Win something then fuck off before the knives are drawn.

There’s every chance Allegri will take his place now - although the transfer ban could mess that up. If Chavs fans hated Sarriball, they’re not gonna love what he has to offer.

[Marc Overmars]

You agree then that it wasn't down to his signings, i think their presence in the final is similar to Leicester in the PL when they won it (though hopefully it won't take them that far) there's been a lot of underperforming and big teams cancelling each other out this year in the CL

Or it's like Ingerspuds fluking their way to the semis in the WC (an appropriate acronym given spuds' stadium)

Let's just hope Flopp gets it right for once, and we have to hope the officials have a good game and don't let spuds get away with murder like they normally do

I don’t think it’s quite the freak occurrence like Leicester winning the league was but I get your point. So if it can’t be down to his signings what is it then? Maybe that he is a good coach?

I hope Liverpool tear them apart but Spurs are a good side and frankly right now as Arsenal fan I’m in no mood to pass judgment on clubs with far more going for them than us.

[I am invisible]

They’re in the CL final having not signed a player for 2 years and have half the wage bill of most clubs they’re competing with.

Tosser I guess. Overrated, I’m not sure.
They also had arguably more players at the World Cup who played late into the competition than the rest of us - a lot of us thought they’d hit a wall in the new year, but they’ve managed to hold it together and keep going.

Pains me to say it, but there’s a lot to admire about what they’re doing right now.

[I am invisible]

I actually wouldn't mind us signing some younger players, not the dross Wenger use to sign all the time, nobodies from unknown clubs who'd never played a game, but youngsters like the guy we were after from PSG or young players who have played a bit and performed well and shown ability.

The reason Wengers' youth policy never worked is because he continuously signed players who were 15-16 who had never shown they were up to the job and as we know when it comes to spotting talent he was way off, he missed out on all the decent kids and signed the duds.

We've got 1 or 2 decent young players ourselves, but not enough to build a team with, that 10 year youth team plan went totally pearshaped as well, it's years since we've produced anybody half decent, the likes of Chelsea and Man City sign up the best youngsters early and they seem to turn out pretty good so maybe we should follow their lead.
The noises are starting to sound a little more positive there - Saliba and Claude Maurice would cost respectable sums, but both look like they have big futures ahead of them, and it sounds like Edu is keen to immediately bring in that Martinelli kid, if he joins as TD (although I suspect that one might spend a year with the u23s) - hope he has a few more up his sleeve from South America.

Internally, players like Nelson, Willock, Smith Rowe and Nketiah look ready to be in and around the first team squad. Saka and Amaechi also look promising.

Emi Martinez has had a good season at Reading - that sounds like an easy win in goal.

And, as previously mentioned, I’d give Bielik a chance to impress. Maybe Chambers too in CM (although would depend on whether any offers we receive for him, and any subsequent midfielders we invest in work out better or worse than keeping him).

Not really sure we have too much else coming through in terms of CMs, LBs and RBs though, so we might be forced to invest there?

Obviously I’m not expecting all of the above to happen or work out, but there’s options there - anywhere we can save ourselves a buck, we should.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

And Emery sold them the guy that kept them in it!

[I am invisible]

I’ve also heard talk that Ljungberg might be replacing Bouldy next season - given that he’s the current coach of the u23s, maybe that’s a hint about the direction we might be taking?

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Pochettino is a superb coach.

[Mac76]

As much as I hate everything to do with Spurs that is one of most daft analysis of their improvement I’ve seen.

An 'improvement' that saw them finish only just above what we all agree is an Arsenal side needing a lot of work, and below an out-of-sorts Chelsea side with an under-fire manager...?

[hobson's choice]

I actually wouldn't mind us signing some younger players, not the dross Wenger use to sign all the time, nobodies from unknown clubs who'd never played a game, but youngsters like the guy we were after from PSG or young players who have played a bit and performed well and shown ability.

The reason Wengers' youth policy never worked is because he continuously signed players who were 15-16 who had never shown they were up to the job and as we know when it comes to spotting talent he was way off, he missed out on all the decent kids and signed the duds.

We've got 1 or 2 decent young players ourselves, but not enough to build a team with, that 10 year youth team plan went totally pearshaped as well, it's years since we've produced anybody half decent, the likes of Chelsea and Man City sign up the best youngsters early and they seem to turn out pretty good so maybe we should follow their lead.

Wenger actually had a very good young core. Just didn't develop em. Most of the youth players he signed were very highly rated

[I am invisible]

Working on the premise that we’ll be able to stretch to maybe 3 or 4 modest signings this summer, this is where I think we *might* be able to find internal solutions and where I think we’ll probably have to invest out limited funds...

Cech —> Martinez
Ospina —> no one needed
Lichsteiner —> Osei-tutu
Mustafi —> Bielik / Chambers
Elneny —> Bielik / Chambers / no one!
Mkhitaryan —> Nelson
Özil —> Smith Rowe / Willock
Welbeck —> Nketiah

Koscielny —> ££££
Kolasinac / Monreal —> ££££
Ramsey —> ££££
New winger —> ££££

(Bonus wingers if we need backups —> Saka / Amaechi)

In terms of numbers, 11-14 players sounds like a ridiculous number to lose and gain in the same summer - however, when you actually look at the names on those ‘out’ lists, how many of them would we really miss? Ramsey, and the Koscielny and Monreal from a couple of seasons ago perhaps. The rest? I don’t see what any of them are currently adding in terms of performance, leadership, fitness, organisation, discipline or morale. Far better for morale, imo, to show the younger players that they’ll get a chance if they work hard, and for the better performers to not have to watch failure and mediocrity being rewarded so lavishly while they carry the whole team.

I should stress that *this is absolutely not* a recipe for instant success - far from it! It’s a recipe for emergency restructuring with a view to trimming £50-70m a year off of our wage bill (and maybe bringing in a modest amount in fees) that can then be put towards rebuilding the side over the next 2-3 years...

[Chippy]

I don’t think it’s quite the freak occurrence like Leicester winning the league was but I get your point. So if it can’t be down to his signings what is it then? Maybe that he is a good coach?

I hope Liverpool tear them apart but Spurs are a good side and frankly right now as Arsenal fan I’m in no mood to pass judgment on clubs with far more going for them than us.

Please god do not let the Spuds win the CL.

[Marc Overmars]

Indeed. :pray:

[Mac76]

Please god do not let the Spuds win the CL.

I've already had a bad weekend, that would just finish me off :ilt:

[Chippy]

I've already had a bad weekend, that would just finish me off :ilt:
Mac76. Put your "S#urs trophy piss take" sign off back on! We are safe for another year :clap:

[I am invisible]

Wenger actually had a very good young core. Just didn't develop em. Most of the youth players he signed were very highly rated
His biggest failure was not building out his coaching team properly - developing players himself was fine when we were talking about just 1 or 2 at a time, like an Anelka or Henry, while the rest of the squad knew their business, but trying to take on half a team without help was never going to work.

That being said, looking at what we’ve been getting out of our current group of expensive, “experienced” flops, I’m starting to get a whole new appreciation for what those previous groups of kids actually achieved!

[Marc Overmars]

That being said, looking at what we’ve been getting out of our current group of expensive, “experienced” flops, I’m starting to get a whole new appreciation for what those previous groups of kids actually achieved!

Me too. They had their flaws but top 4 every year and even made the latter stages of the CL on a couple of occasions. It's a shame we didn't have money to spend then because they weren't too far off from being a really competitive team.

It did help though that Spurs and City were not at the level they're currently at. Not sure how the early Emirates-era team would fare now given the competition.

[Bumble]

Me too. They had their flaws but top 4 every year and even made the latter stages of the CL on a couple of occasions. It's a shame we didn't have money to spend then because they weren't too far off from being a really competitive team.

It did help though that Spurs and City were not at the level they're currently at. Not sure how the early Emirates-era team would fare now given the competition.

think that is the point the competition has stepped up.

[Letters]

Spurs finished 1 point ahead of us :lol:.
One!
Yes, they got to the CL Final but let's face it they rode their luck a bit. They nearly went out in the group stages. You need a bit of luck in a cup competition and they got it.
If they are better than us then there really isn't much in it.
I don't understand why people think there's this huge gulf in class. There is between us and the top 2, we're at the same level as the next tier of clubs and way above everyone else.

[SMatthews]

Unless you are competing for the league title in your respective country, like any cup competiton, the CL is never a marker for how good a team you are. Look at Real Madrid. No one calls that a ‘great’ team but they turned up when it mattered for years in the CL. I mean, Spurs lost 13 times in the league - a third of their total games.

Similar to the way going on a domestic cup run doesn’t show how good a team you are in the league. We’ve certainly seen that enough in recent years

[Letters]

Pretty much how I see it.
We wouldn't have been a great side had we won the Europa League, we're not a terrible side because we lost the final. The league is a better measure of where we are and where they are.

We're a tier below the top 2 who are miles above us and everyone else. After those two we are as good as anyone and better than most.

People act like our squad is a complete disaster and that Spurs have it all sorted out. Not really. As you say they lost 13 league games. 13! :lol:
They pretty much won all the rest which is why they were in the top 4 at the end, but there's hardly this gulf in class between the sides. It boiled down to a point in the end.
Our ineptitude stopped us finishing top 4, theirs opened the door which meant we should have.

Tighten up in defence and we've got a good chance of top 4 next year. That's been our problem for years. Wenger could never sort it out. Can Emery?

[Penguin]

Tighten up in defence and we've got a good chance of top 4 next year. That's been our problem for years. Wenger could never sort it out. Can Emery?

Not with these players, going by last season. He had the whole season to work with them and I was hoping to see some improvement by the end, but frankly I didn't. Our defense, our away form... none of it improved. Even our home form went to shit at the end. Jury's still out on Emery.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the transfer window. Now that he's seen the squad he should have a good idea of what it needs.

[SMatthews]

Not with these players, going by last season. He had the whole season to work with them and I was hoping to see some improvement by the end, but frankly I didn't. Our defense, our away form... none of it improved. Even our home form went to shit at the end.

Our away form did improve last season - it's probably the main reason why we were back in the chase for the top four, as our home form remained in great shape as per the previous season. The main problem is the away form didn't improve enough.

Although, as we were only two points off third - which is really our limit at the moment - I still think it's hard to see how much we can improve given the resources available to us. The points needed to secure top four have remained pretty much the same for the past 3/4 seasons and we aren't far off that.

The next challenge is to get back into the top four, but with third our limit, I'm not sure how different our performance levels will be - especially when you consider many of us thought third was there for the taking this season.

It's strange to think how a single win in either the league or the Europa could've put a completely different spin on things for many.

[I am invisible]

Me too. They had their flaws but top 4 every year and even made the latter stages of the CL on a couple of occasions. It's a shame we didn't have money to spend then because they weren't too far off from being a really competitive team.

It did help though that Spurs and City were not at the level they're currently at. Not sure how the early Emirates-era team would fare now given the competition.
The real shame for me is that the players all peaked at slightly different times and moved on before they all got to play together at their best. No one had the patience to see it through in the end, but I guess you can’t blame them really - it was quite a leap of faith we were asking them to take in the project, and players only have finite careers. Only natural that the best of them would want to make the most of their best years...

[Özim]

Real Madrid not a great team after winning the CL 3 times in a row :lol: I've heard it all now, they were widely accepted to be the greatest club side due to their achievements, no other club has ever defended it their achievement was amazing and the quality of players they had unreal.

CL generally tells you who the best sides are, the top teams usually get through to the latter stages more often than not, Liverpool have been in the last 2 finals and are a fantastic team.

[Özim]

Pretty much how I see it.
We wouldn't have been a great side had we won the Europa League, we're not a terrible side because we lost the final. The league is a better measure of where we are and where they are.

We're a tier below the top 2 who are miles above us and everyone else. After those two we are as good as anyone and better than most.

People act like our squad is a complete disaster and that Spurs have it all sorted out. Not really. As you say they lost 13 league games. 13! :lol:
They pretty much won all the rest which is why they were in the top 4 at the end, but there's hardly this gulf in class between the sides. It boiled down to a point in the end.
Our ineptitude stopped us finishing top 4, theirs opened the door which meant we should have.

Tighten up in defence and we've got a good chance of top 4 next year. That's been our problem for years. Wenger could never sort it out. Can Emery?

Our side is average (even Keown called them average recently), look at the personnel, who is actually a decent player, we have 4-5 decent players, other than that they're trash they really are, the defence is awful, the midfield is average, it's only up front and in goal we're decent. Even in a season where clubs have been handing a top 4 place to us on a plate we ended up 5th and frankly overall from the way we've played this season, average sums us up, Watford who got hammered 6-0 by City in the final outplayed us with 10 men for goodness sake. Chelsea wiped the floor with us in the Europa League final and they're hardly anything special, if they'd won 6 or 7-1 it wouldn't have been unjust, they outclassed us in the 2nd half.

I agree with most on here, this team needs to be dsmantled and we need to start again, the longer we keep this team together the longer we'll be seeing the team collapse like a house of cards. You're not going to like this but it's widely accepted that Wenger assembled a very average group players here and left the new manager with very little to work with, granted he didn't do a great job of that either, but he certainly has been helped by the rubbish left behind for him.

[Letters]

Our side is average

Compared to who?
Compared to the top 2, no. We are far below their level.
Compared to the sides who finished 3rd-6th? Yes, I guess so.
Compared to the PL as a whole? No, clearly we are significantly way above the average.

You really need to stop using that word or, if you’re going to, define your context. The word alone is meaningless.


Do you regard Spurs as average? The media sucked their cocks all season, they finished above us by a point.
There are only 2 sides who are better than us by any meaningful measure in the country. Hardly average.

You can cherry pick results from last season if you like, so can I.
We beat Chelsea, Spurs and Man Utd at home. We were unlucky to only draw away at Spurs and Utd.
See? It’s easy to cherry pick.

End of the day the top 2 finished miles above us and everyone else.
There’s virtually nothing between us and the next tier of teams.

[Özim]

Compared to who?
Compared to the top 2, no. We are far below their level.
Compared to the sides who finished 3rd-6th? Yes, I guess so.
Compared to the PL as a whole? No, clearly we are significantly way above the average.

You really need to stop using that word or, if you’re going to, define your context. The word alone is meaningless.


Do you regard Spurs as average? The media sucked their cocks all season, they finished above us by a point.
There are only 2 sides who are better than us by any meaningful measure in the country. Hardly average.

You can cherry pick results from last season if you like, so can I.
We beat Chelsea, Spurs and Man Utd at home. We were unlucky to only draw away at Spurs and Utd.
See? It’s easy to cherry pick.

End of the day the top 2 finished miles above us and everyone else.
There’s virtually nothing between us and the next tier of teams.

Average in a general sense, I don't think we were impressive last season, if you analyse the season we had the 1st part where we started with 2 defeats and then went on a bit of a run, but in truth during that run we laboured to a number of wins and couldn't come in at half time leading for a long time, our away form was frankly embarassing as well. Then you have the collapse at the end which was let's face it a disaster, we couldn't buy a win and even struggled against 10 man Watford and were lucky to come out with the win as their 10 men dominated the game. Ending up 5th was more due to how poor the league was than how good we were, so yes the teams below us are also very average.

In the cups we obviously were knocked out, but even in the Europa we were lacklustre for large parts, there were some awful results along the way it has to be said.

Chelsea had a poor season by their standards and Spurs finished the season badly, despite that we still couldn't beat them to 4th place, they literally handed it to us on a late and we turned it down. Spurs finished poorly I grant you, but player for player they're superior to us, this despite not buying a player since 2018! I think the reason the press like Spurs is because they play good football and the manager has done a decent job with them given he's spent no money, they're far from the finished article of course but with a bit of money they are far closer than we are, they need a bit of tinkering wherease we almost need a new team.

Any club on a given day can put in a decent performance and win, but what matters is where you are at the end of the season, how you've done in the major competitions and how you perform when there is pressure, not one off results. Spurs got into the CL and into the CL final, sure it's a cup competition but how many times did we try to reach the latter stages and get hammered? You haveto give them credit for beating, in form Dortmund, Man City (no mean feat) and then the peoples' favourites Ajax.

Anyway I'm not too interested in other clubs, I'm more interested in Arsenal and when I look at the players, aside from Leno, Aubameyang, Lacazette and Torreira (I'll give Guendouzi a bye as well as he's shown potential and is young, you could also argue Bellerin, but he's still unproven IMO, started well enough thn go inured but was awful the season before so the jury is out on him), what decent players do we actually have who you wouldn't say were not average last season?

[Letters]

Average in a general sense
There isn't really a general sense of the word. Average can only be understood in a context.

No, we weren't that impressive last season. Only 2 clubs in the country were consistently impressive.
After that we were as good as anyone and better than most. We were a 1 point off Spurs and 2 off Chelsea.
You think a team who finished 1 point above us are better player for player?!
They lost 13 league games! They were in the top 4 because, inexplicably, they won most of the rest but it's so bizarre you think that a team who finished on 71 points need a "bit of tinkering" and a team who finished on 70 need a "new team". How are they "far closer" than we are? They finished 27 points off the top, we finished 28. We're both miles away from the level of the top 2 and as you say we really should have finished above them.

What matters is where you are at the end of the season, you say. Well, Spurs finished with 0 trophies to our 0, and they finished 1 place higher in the table and 1 point better off. Their CL run was admittedly impressive but let's not forget they (I think) lost their first 3 group games. They only got through the group because of a late equaliser against Barca and I think they had to rely on the other result going their way too. They do (as much as it hurts to admit it) deserve some credit for their CL run but they rode their luck a bit at times and end of the day they came away potless again.

You say Chelsea had a poor season by "their standards". They actually got 2 points more than the previous season. Since they won the title a couple of years ago they've not been great. I'm not sure what "their standards" are, the season before they won the title they finished with 50 points in 10th.

Our main problem, as always, is defence. We scored more than anyone other than the top two but we conceded 51 goals, significantly more than any of the top 4 (it was more than City and Liverpool combined, embarrassingly!). And there's a mentality issue as well. Those are the biggest issues I see. I think they're perfectly sort-outable without going nuclear and starting again. We don't have the budget to anyway. A couple of additions and we could be better. Not at Liverpool or City's level but we are miles away. Let's be realistic and start by targetting the top 4. We were close this year (we weren't last year). The points total to get into the top 4 was admittedly a little lower this year but not by that much, it's certainly doable next year. There was some improvement from the previous season. We got 7 more points, we got to the final of the Europa instead of the semi-final. But winning it wouldn't have made it a great season any more than losing it makes it a terrible one.

I'm giving Emery a C for this season. Maybe a C+ as we got to the Europa final. He has work to do and there will be pressure on him next year if we don't improve. We're not going to make the leap from where we are to Champions in one season. I question with our owner whether we can anyway. But we don't need to rebuild the entire team to improve. Let's get into the top 4 first, then we can try and push on.

[Özim]

There isn't really a general sense of the word. Average can only be understood in a context.

No, we weren't that impressive last season. Only 2 clubs in the country were consistently impressive.
After that we were as good as anyone and better than most. We were a 1 point off Spurs and 2 off Chelsea.
You think a team who finished 1 point above us are better player for player?!
They lost 13 league games! They were in the top 4 because, inexplicably, they won most of the rest but it's so bizarre you think that a team who finished on 71 points need a "bit of tinkering" and a team who finished on 70 need a "new team". How are they "far closer" than we are? They finished 27 points off the top, we finished 28. We're both miles away from the level of the top 2 and as you say we really should have finished above them.

What matters is where you are at the end of the season, you say. Well, Spurs finished with 0 trophies to our 0, and they finished 1 place higher in the table and 1 point better off. Their CL run was admittedly impressive but let's not forget they (I think) lost their first 3 group games. They only got through the group because of a late equaliser against Barca and I think they had to rely on the other result going their way too. They do (as much as it hurts to admit it) deserve some credit for their CL run but they rode their luck a bit at times and end of the day they came away potless again.

You say Chelsea had a poor season by "their standards". They actually got 2 points more than the previous season. Since they won the title a couple of years ago they've not been great. I'm not sure what "their standards" are, the season before they won the title they finished with 50 points in 10th.

Our main problem, as always, is defence. We scored more than anyone other than the top two but we conceded 51 goals, significantly more than any of the top 4 (it was more than City and Liverpool combined, embarrassingly!). And there's a mentality issue as well. Those are the biggest issues I see. I think they're perfectly sort-outable without going nuclear and starting again. We don't have the budget to anyway. A couple of additions and we could be better. Not at Liverpool or City's level but we are miles away. Let's be realistic and start by targetting the top 4. We were close this year (we weren't last year). The points total to get into the top 4 was admittedly a little lower this year but not by that much, it's certainly doable next year. There was some improvement from the previous season. We got 7 more points, we got to the final of the Europa instead of the semi-final. But winning it wouldn't have made it a great season any more than losing it makes it a terrible one.

I'm giving Emery a C for this season. Maybe a C+ as we got to the Europa final. He has work to do and there will be pressure on him next year if we don't improve. We're not going to make the leap from where we are to Champions in one season. I question with our owner whether we can anyway. But we don't need to rebuild the entire team to improve. Let's get into the top 4 first, then we can try and push on.

Spurs alos collapsed at the end of the season, but overall they were certainly more impressive than us, I think they probably need 2-3 new additions wherease I reckon we need more like 7 or 8.

Just look at the squad the defence is awful, Monreal, Koscielny, Mustafi all have to go due to age in the case of the 1st two and quality in the case of the latter, that's 3 players right there, Lichsteiner is also gone already so we need a new player to replace him, that's 4 now.

Then we have the average midfield, Xhaka has to go I'm sorry but he's a liabilty, it's been shown the guy has made the most mistakes leading to goals than any other PL player, he's slow ponderous and offers nothing, that's 5. Mhkitaryan is on too much money and hasn't turned up since he moved here there's 6. Then we have Ozil, it's widely accepted he's finished at the top level and needs to be disposed of, that's 7. Elneny again not really good enough, 8 if you replace him oh and don't forget we've lost Ramsey probably the pick of our midfielders this season.

Cech is gone so we probably need a new keeper is Martinez isn't promotoed, that's 9. Welbeck is also gone so we need a 3rd forward, that's 10. Even if you brought in a couple kids ESR and Nelson and Even Chambers being the obvious choices you'd still need around 7 players if you want a decent side because all of those listed aren't up to the job, but realistically that goes back up to 8 as we'd need a more experienced winger than those guys.

You keep saying we need 2-3 players, but that's just not right, 2-3 barely fixes the defence. Granted we probably won't do a fraction of that because let's face it we have little money and the owner won't put any in, so next season we'll probably be also rans again and because Emery is not a top coach looking at him, we may well miss out on top 4 again as well, as I expect Spurs and Man U will spend big and Chelsea also will if they aren't under a transfer ban.

To be honest, if Wolves can add a bit more quality to their squad I can see them coming above us as well if we keep hold of many of the current lot, we've had a lot of these guys for years and they've shown they just aren't up to the job and nothing you can do will ever make them up to it.

I agree our defence is a problem, but so is out midfield to be honest, we're losing Ramsey as well so it's already weaker, there's very little quality in there now, very little creativity and not enough battling quality either, I haven't even mentioned Iwobi in this who IMO is at best a squad player who time and time again can't deliver a cross and of course Kolasinac a player who can't defend and wasn't very good last season, what will Emery suddenly change in this lot that he couldn't do last season exactly, I can't see any of those guys getting better or being up to the job, they've had long enough to show they are after all.

If we do indeed get jut 40 million then we're in real trouble and we'll have to pray some of the kids come good, but statistically (and given our poor youth record over the years) it's unlikely to be the answer, we may find one decent player who makes it out of a dozen but we'd be bery very lucky to find more, our youth academy isn't exactly outstanding and the only one who's done anything of note (in another country however) is Nelson.

I know a lot of people talk about this guy and that guy being good, but in the end 99% of these guys don't make it, it's just fans wanting to have some outstanding youngster come through, truth is we haven't found anyone world class coming through the ranks in years, we're not like Southampton, Ajax or even Man City and Chelsea who seem to find quality young players (the latter two seem to buy the right ones).

[SMatthews]

I question with our owner whether we can anyway.

I was thinking about this yesterday and considering if he's just the easy one to blame for our fall from grace.

Looking at the amount we've spent (please let's not get into net spend as you know what I think about that!) over the past few years in pure expenditure, we're looking at around £270m - that's a lot of fucking money! That's around £90m per season, which is far from terrible, given the model we're trying to work with. Which I don't personally have a problem with.

Is the owner really to blame, or Gazidis for mismanagement of funds, and Wenger, for being to selfish and not going sooner?

In particular, Wenger was backed with money for Laca, Auba, wages for Ozil and Mikhi in a short space of time (6 months I think). It was a team built to get us back into the top four after falling out of it, but it never happened. And now we're paying for it.

Wenger waited years to have more money to spend, and by the time he was given it, way too much was wasted. If it was better spent, we could still be in the top four and perhaps even higher.

I mentioned this earlier in this thread or another, I'm not quite sure. But giving the limitation on our funds, which will always be smaller than others unless we sell big and reinvest, how much more can we improve points wise, seeing as we are already 2 points off third?

[Letters]

Spurs alos collapsed at the end of the season, but overall they were certainly more impressive than us.
Again, I have no idea how you conclude that a side that finished on 70 points need 7 or 8 new players and a side that finished on 71 need only 2 or 3.
In the head to heads we beat them easily at home and were unlucky not to do so away. They're not all that.

Ramsey is the main loss for us. At the time his departure was announced I wasn't too worried, but have to say he was outstanding last season and will be a big loss for us.
Other than that, you spend a lot of time in your post ripping apart our squad, saying how terrible it is.
But you still need to explain how you figure that our squad is so inferior to Spurs' when they finished 1 points above us.
You're imagining a gulf in class which just isn't borne out by the games between the teams or the final league table.

[Özim]

Again, I have no idea how you conclude that a side that finished on 70 points need 7 or 8 new players and a side that finished on 71 need only 2 or 3.
In the head to heads we beat them easily at home and were unlucky not to do so away. They're not all that.

Ramsey is the main loss for us. At the time his departure was announced I wasn't too worried, but have to say he was outstanding last season and will be a big loss for us.
Other than that, you spend a lot of time in your post ripping apart our squad, saying how terrible it is.
But you still need to explain how you figure that our squad is so inferior to Spurs' when they finished 1 points above us.
You're imagining a gulf in class which just isn't borne out by the games between the teams or the final league table.

I think Spurs had the distraction of the CL which we didn't have, your could argue we had the Europa league but as we know the CL is a different level. The other reason is their squad needs beefing up a bit, since they haven't signed anyone since 2018 they are a bit short on numbers.

Player for player though they are superior and they certainly don't need the same level of surgery as we do, again most people will tell you that. Chelsea were a few points above us, yet they outclassed us in the EL final and looked a level above in reality,, I know this was only one game bu the gulf in class looked pretty big on the day, it wasn't like it was a close game, they could have easily scored 7, you wouldn't expect that in a final after 3 weeks of rest.

Not sure the league is always that indicative of quality as every team plays the teams at a different time and form and injuries (and luck sometimes) play a part in results, there's the other competitions factor as well which could mean more games than another team which can stretch smaller squads more. I don't think it's as clear cut as you like to think, but watching Spurs and watching us, they look a better side to most.

Personally I would prefer to win the CL than the league, being Champions of Europe means more than Champions of one country and there's a lot more prestige attached to it.

[Letters]

I think Spurs had the distraction of the CL which we didn't have, your could argue we had the Europa league
I would argue that. And while yes, of course the CL is a higher level of opposition we were still - towards the end - playing pretty decent sides and it's still games which take their toll and Thursday is close to the weekend so there's less gap before the next league game.


Player for player though they are superior and they certainly don't need the same level of surgery as we do, again most people will tell you that.
Then all those people also need to explain how they only managed to finish a point ahead of us...
My explanation is this:
I'd say their first choice 11 is better than our first choice 11, I'd concede that. But these days it's a squad game and we have more depth than Spurs.
Overall it adds up to there not being much between the clubs right now.

The Europa League final was disappointing, to say the least. We shouldn't have been swatted aside like that. But for the first 30 minutes we dominated, we weren't clinical enough.
We crumbled too easily but the league table shows there's not much between the sides overall. In the league games we both won our home ties but the league table is the real test of where you are.
Where we are is a mile below the top 2 but within the next group of teams we're holding our own. We don't need 7 new players to push for top 4 next year, we did that this year with the squad we have.
Replace Ramsey, sort out the defence and we have a change of improving. Right now that's all I'm looking for, so long as we're heading in the right direction and we push on next season I'll be content enough.
Whether Emery is the man to help us do that remains to be seen.


Not sure the league is always that indicative of quality
:haha: