Match Reaction v Brighton (away).

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Lost home and away to Brighton.

Some fucking ridiculous subs and again absolute bobbins to watch.

Pepe did something good then got hooked soon after.

[Marc Overmars]

Same old shit.

There isn’t a single team in this league we can be confident of beating. Arteta is getting nothing from these players, not a good sign at all.

Can this joke of a season end now please.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Why we still have Aubameyang out on the left is beyond me, then again why Martinelli is getting the shoulder is too bewildering also.

Bringing on Nketiah, Nelson and Willock with sod all time left to do anything.

A total mess. Three months to think of this. :lol:

[Letters]

Come on, Pandemic :scarf:

Fuck off, Arsenal.

[Xhaka Can’t]

We got a goal, so that is progress.

[Marc Overmars]

I thought new coaches were meant to provide a bit of a bounce. Even Emery managed to make the team click for a short while at least.

Arteta, as far as I can see doesn’t have a fucking clue thus far.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oh yeah I forgot, no Ozil again. :lol:

[rodders]

The club is falling apart at every level.

[selassie]

I didn't watch it, I was geniunely surprised we didn't lose though, thought this one was going to be a defeat.

[Globalgunner]

i dont understand the obsession with Auba`s position. He isnt chained to the left. Saka switched positions with him several times. Auba is no Henry. He is not even Alexis Sanchez. He will not be the game changer at Arsenal and he never was at any team before Arsenal. We need him and all the other wasters out of here and let Martinelli play there. We are shit with or without Auba so why spend another 300kpw on a player who cant win a game single handedly for us. We need to move on with this obsession with a players starting position.

[Marc Overmars]

Looking at the remaining fixtures, we will do well to reach 50 points.

[Globalgunner]

I didn't watch it, I was geniunely surprised we didn't lose though, thought this one was going to be a defeat.

Are you trolling us now?

[selassie]

i dont understand the obsession with Aub`s position. He isnt chained to the left. Saka switched positions with him several times. Auba is no Henry. He will not be the game changer at Arsenal and he never was at any team before Arsenal. We need him and all the other wasters out of here and let Martinelli play there. We are shit with or without Auba so why spend another 300kpw on a player who cant win a game single handedly for us. We need to move on with this obsession with a players starting position.

If Auba has any sense he will leave.

Ozil gets paid just under 1.5 million a month to either sit at home or sit on the bench. It's absolutely crazy.

[selassie]

Are you trolling us now?

Honestly thought it ended 1-1, looool

I went on bbc site a few mins from the end it seems. Oh well, draw or loss....neither here nor there, season was done months ago.

[Letters]

I didn't watch it, I was geniunely surprised we didn't lose though, thought this one was going to be a defeat.

Denial :bow:

[selassie]

Denial :bow:

:haha:

[Letters]

I thought new coaches were meant to provide a bit of a bounce. Even Emery managed to make the team click for a short while at least.

Arteta, as far as I can see doesn’t have a fucking clue thus far.
Results were ok before the enforced break, but he is getting increasingly hard to defend.
We are a properly mid-table side now and I’m not quite sure how that has happened.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I didn't watch it, I was geniunely surprised we didn't lose though, thought this one was going to be a defeat.

Selassie is in a time warp. :rose:

[Letters]

Selassie is in a time warp. :rose:

It does sound better there tbf.

An alternate timeline where Arsenal don’t lose every game they play :cloud9:

[Marc Overmars]

Results were ok before the enforced break, but he is getting increasingly hard to defend.
We are a properly mid-table side now and I’m not quite sure how that has happened.

There isn’t a single ounce of chemistry or guile in this team at all. It’s a compete ramshackle outfit.

The worst Arsenal team for a generation without a doubt. I can’t identify with anything I see on the pitch anymore because it’s so far removed from everything Arsenal has stood for in the past.

I couldn’t tell you with any confidence where our next win is coming from.

[selassie]

Yeah Wenger Out!

[rodders]

I wanted him out but now wish he had never gone. Please Please somebody who cares but out Kroenke.

[Letters]

Yeah Wenger Out!

“Anyone would be better than Wenger.”


:whistle:

[Globalgunner]

“Anyone would be better than Wenger.”


:whistle:

We are yet to employ Mr Anyone. He would certainly be better than that has-been who couldnt find another job in real football.

[Letters]

There isn’t a single ounce of chemistry or guile in this team at all. It’s a compete ramshackle outfit.

The worst Arsenal team for a generation without a doubt. I can’t identify with anything I see on the pitch anymore because it’s so far removed from everything Arsenal has stood for in the past.

I couldn’t tell you with any confidence where our next win is coming from.
Basically agree with all that. What I don’t understand is how we got here.
Some will inevitably blame Wenger and while this is still largely his squad, in his last season we finished 6th.
Not sparkling but that was Wenger’s worst season (not bad for a manager who had been with us that long, IMO) and it was generally felt that a new manager would get more out of them.
Emery didn’t hugely improve things but we still got 70 points and got to the Europa League final so I call bullshit on Wenger leaving us with this terrible squad. This year has been a complete car crash. We are now a proper mid table side in a way we never were under Wenger and we weren’t in Emery’s first season.
How did we get here?
This is the worst Arsenal side since the mid-90s and even then they had a bit of fight about them and could raise it enough for the odd cup game to win a few trophies.
Cannot see how we dig ourselves out of this hole, Auba would be mad to stay and without him we are mid table through and through. We had to move on from Wenger and I never bought into the idea that any idiot would be an improvement but I’m somewhat baffled at how we’ve ended up this much worse. We haven’t exactly been frugal in the transfer market.

[Letters]

We are yet to employ Mr Anyone. He would certainly be better than that has-been who couldnt find another job in real football.

Last I heard he had a pretty senior job at FIFA.
But yeah, it’s odd how a 70 year old isn’t top of the list for clubs seeking a manager.

[Mac76]

I wanted him out but now wish he had never gone. Please Please somebody who cares but out Kroenke.

If he'd gone sooner i think we'd have got a better manager

And i'll say it again I blame Raul more than the Kroenkes, though they are at fault for letting a c**t like him destroy the club, they don't get it yet, but i hope they wake up soon

[Mac76]

i dont understand the obsession with Auba`s position. He isnt chained to the left. Saka switched positions with him several times. Auba is no Henry. He is not even Alexis Sanchez. He will not be the game changer at Arsenal and he never was at any team before Arsenal. We need him and all the other wasters out of here and let Martinelli play there. We are shit with or without Auba so why spend another 300kpw on a player who cant win a game single handedly for us. We need to move on with this obsession with a players starting position.

Auba's not a 'waster' - he's scored 17 goals this season. Without him we'd be in the bottom three probably. He did ok today but there's no strategy to make the best of him, each player just runs around doing their own thing, that's Arteta's fault

[Marc Overmars]

Auba would score 40 goals a season if he played for City or Liverpool. The fact he’s managed to score the amount he has in our dysfunctional team shows what a gem he is.

He’ll leave on a free, we’ll miss out on millions as usual and once again struggle to rebuild.

Ozil will still be here though, gracing us with an appearance once in a while.

[Letters]

If he'd gone sooner i think we'd have got a better manager
Do you mean that in the sense that other managers (like Klopp, say) were available but we missed the boat?
Or do you mean that had we still been in the CL we’d have been able to attract a better class of manager?
Disagree with the latter if that’s what you mean. Throw enough money at someone and I don’t think that would have been much of a factor.

[selassie]

“Anyone would be better than Wenger.”


:whistle:

Emery was better than him ;) :haha:

[Letters]

Emery was better than him ;) :haha:

Well. His first season was marginally better.
But then this season it all went to shit :(

[Niall_Quinn]

Same shit players we had before the break, so it's not a surprise nothing has changed after it.

[Letters]

Right, but these “shit players” finished 5th last season with 70 points and got to the Europa League final. Not a patch on the top 2 but pretty much as good as anyone else.

How has it all gone quite so wrong this year?

[Marc Overmars]

Performances were still a bit duff last year but Auba and Laca bailed us out a lot. It’s the attack that’s gone to shit this year. Auba has no support, if he doesn’t score we’re hugely unlikely to win a match. Points to how dysfunctional the set up of the team is.

Only 41 goals from 30 games so far.

Last year we scored 73. So 32 goals shy of that with 8 games to play. :lol:

Lacazette has sadly been a complete waste of space this season. He has no business in the team and certainly should not be keeping Martinelli out.

[Mac76]

Do you mean that in the sense that other managers (like Klopp, say) were available but we missed the boat?
Or do you mean that had we still been in the CL we’d have been able to attract a better class of manager?
Disagree with the latter if that’s what you mean. Throw enough money at someone and I don’t think that would have been much of a factor.

Yes, more the first reason than the second but i don't entirely discount the second either

[selassie]

Well. His first season was marginally better.
But then this season it all went to shit :(

I do agree with you Letters, I know its rare!

Wenger had past his sell by date with us and should have gone no matter what, but i agree we have regressed since he has gone.

[selassie]

Yes, more the first reason than the second but i don't entirely discount the second either

Yep totally agree Mac, a few seasons before Wenger left there was a lot of top quality managers available. We made a real mess of the Wenger out situation, but it's what we do, we are Arsenal!

[Niall_Quinn]

Right, but these “shit players” finished 5th last season with 70 points and got to the Europa League final. Not a patch on the top 2 but pretty much as good as anyone else.

How has it all gone quite so wrong this year?

The football has been getting worse, year on year. Slow, plodding, sideways, backwards. Don't know what the last 2 games have been like, but I'd lay money on it being the same old story. The players always take the easy option. When they can move the play on, they instead reset and slow everything down. Constant prodding and probing but at 1mph so no threat is actually posed. It's a boring style and an ineffective one that Wenger perfected and first Emery, now Arteta can't shake.

We went from playing like Arsenal, dynamic, fast, ambitious, to trying to play like Barca. But without the hundreds of millions of investment required to pull that off. So instead we just became this one paced, tip tap shit machine that's pretty much unwatchable and utterly ineffective.

We're also playing in a shit league brimming with mediocre players. The modern PL is packed with turds who can't pass, can't cross, can't shoot, with the few notable exceptions. So depending on how shit everyone is around us dictates where we'll finish. We're a million miles behind Liverpool and the gypos, but in the vicinity of shit heaps like the spuds and Utd. This season, maybe a little worse, unbelievably trying to hang on to absolute pub outfits like Wolves and Sheff Utd. But at least teams like that will fight with the limited resources they have. Our lot won't. Too pampered. Let away with it in a terrible culture that rewards mediocrity with stupid money.

We've settled for second best in every aspect for well over a decade now and that causes rot. As I have said for years, I wouldn't mind so much if the football was worth watching. But it's unbearably awful. There's no enjoyment, just pure frustration.

Football in general is swirling around the rim, but we're pulling the flush at Arsenal.

[selassie]

Performances were still a bit duff last year but Auba and Laca bailed us out a lot. It’s the attack that’s gone to shit this year. Auba has no support, if he doesn’t score we’re hugely unlikely to win a match. Points to how dysfunctional the set up of the team is.

Only 41 goals from 30 games so far.

Last year we scored 73. So 32 goals shy of that with 8 games to play. :lol:

Lacazette has sadly been a complete waste of space this season. He has no business in the team and certainly should not be keeping Martinelli out.

Yep agree with this.

Sad thing is, Emery could have been a hero last season, he absolutely blew it and that was IMO the start of this sad downward spiral we find ourselves in. IIRC, we were 3rd and a couple of points clear of 5th place last season with 5 games to go and que the COLLAPSE.

We now find ourselves in arguably a much worse position than we were prior to Wenger leaving.

We have a squad full of players with little to no resale value, we have no spine outside of Leno & Auba, we by the sounds of it don't have the budget required to rebuild in the way we need to. TBH, whilst Kroenke is a leech, he has actually invested a fair bit of money into the football side over the past few years, problem is Wenger and then Emery have both made bad moves in the market. In the case of Emery, he managed to actually make our defence worse and that is some feat, still scratching my head on how he managed this. He spent money in the process too, it's actually quite funny! :haha:

Midfield is a complete mess too, I wouldn't batter an eyelid if everyone of our midfielders was sold, same with the defence too with the exception of Tierney & Saliba.

[Mac76]

One positive thing, i thought Martinez did well when he came on

[Chippy]

Right, but these “shit players” finished 5th last season with 70 points and got to the Europa League final. Not a patch on the top 2 but pretty much as good as anyone else.

How has it all gone quite so wrong this year?
A.R.T.E.T.A

[Globalgunner]

Arteta is like hiring the football equivalent of Gordon Ramsay's assistant to revive your failing restaurant. At least he will have the swearing down pat

[Letters]

A.R.T.E.T.A

Dude, we were very shit this season before Arteta took over, that’s why Emery was sacked.
You can argue that Arteta isn’t the right person to turn things around and that is getting harder to argue against, but you can’t blame Arteta for this awful season when he’s been in charge for less than half of it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wouldn't really matter who managed the club. The core problems would still be there. The squad has been allowed to go to ruin over many seasons. Sub-standard players who will always fall down when the major challenges arrive. Guaranteed. We've seen it for years, under 3 managers now.

[Mac76]

Dude, we were very shit this season before Arteta took over, that’s why Emery was sacked.
You can argue that Arteta isn’t the right person to turn things around and that is getting harder to argue against, but you can’t blame Arteta for this awful season when he’s been in charge for less than half of it.

*sigh*

but you CAN blame him for all the mistakes I listed elsewhere, about playing the wrong players in the wrong positions

the Auba on the left thing is just the biggest example but there are others

and WHY do people like Ozil and Pepe get cold-shouldered? Ozil would have done a much better job of keeping the ball against Citeh

i'm convinced the reasons is this pathetic 'doesn't work hard in training' bullshit which small-dicked managers like Emery and Arteta obssess about because they know they're incompetent and so have to throw their weight around extra hard to compensate

[Marc Overmars]

Ozil has the ability we need but lets not pretend he wasn't rubbish when he was last playing regularly. Which seems like an age ago now.

We will not be able to even start thinking about moving forward as a club with him hemorrhaging us money with no return.

[Letters]

*sigh*

but you CAN blame him for all the mistakes I listed elsewhere, about playing the wrong players in the wrong positions

the Auba on the left thing is just the biggest example but there are others
Yes, you can. No dispute there. But my original question was how did we manage to go from a squad which just last season got to the Europa League Final and finished 5th with 70 points - we were only 2 points off 3rd, the top 2 aside we were as good as anyone (or bad as anyone as the top 2 aside no-one looked much good). How did we go from that to the utter shit we are seeing this season? And the answer to that is not "Arteta". He took over a shit show and hasn't turned it into anything much better, admittedly, but he didn't cause this. MO alluded to this above but last season maybe our final position flattered us somewhat. They say the table never lies but if you remember we had that good run of wins at the start of the season and in many of those games we really weren't that good, a lot of those results could have been different. And Auba and Laca bailed us out a lot, Auba has continued to, mostly. Laca not so much.

I don't think our squad is that good but I don't think it's that bad either. We seem to be significantly less than the sum of our parts.

[Marc Overmars]

There are more extreme examples of teams dropping off a cliff the following year, like United in 2014 and Chelsea in 2016, after previously winning the title, it can happen for any number of reasons. Obviously we were never that good to begin with so it stands to reason that we probably hit our ceiling last season and our position now is more reflective of where we are as a team. We were also a distant 6th in Wenger’s last season so there’s more evidence of us being shit than there is any good over a 3 year span.

[Mac76]

Yes, you can. No dispute there. But my original question was how did we manage to go from a squad which just last season got to the Europa League Final and finished 5th with 70 points - we were only 2 points off 3rd, the top 2 aside we were as good as anyone (or bad as anyone as the top 2 aside no-one looked much good). How did we go from that to the utter shit we are seeing this season? And the answer to that is not "Arteta". He took over a shit show and hasn't turned it into anything much better, admittedly, but he didn't cause this. MO alluded to this above but last season maybe our final position flattered us somewhat. They say the table never lies but if you remember we had that good run of wins at the start of the season and in many of those games we really weren't that good, a lot of those results could have been different. And Auba and Laca bailed us out a lot, Auba has continued to, mostly. Laca not so much.

I don't think our squad is that good but I don't think it's that bad either. We seem to be significantly less than the sum of our parts.

i think Laca losing the plot has been a big factor but it's only accentuated the folly of not playing the one remaining in-form striker through the middle - it might sound like one small detail but to me it speaks volumes about Emery, then Freddie and now Arteta's ability to see what's going on in front of them and do something about it. It would have been such a quick win for him as manager but he's not done it

as for the wider picture, i've said elsewhere our transfer 'policy' is at least part-run by Raul's agent friends filling their pockets but for all that we are getting some good players - Teirney, Mari looks good and hopefully Saliba - plus Pepe showed on Saturday what he can do given the opportunity

I still think even now Arsenal has the standing, facilities and history to get good players, but every season we underperform it's pushing us further back and that's why Arteta was too big a gamble against getting an Ancelotti or similar

[Xhaka Can’t]

The last para in your post nails it.

This Club was in no position to take a punt on an untested Manager. We needed someone with the proven ability and respect of players to sort this mess out.

At best it is looking like another 2-3 years wasted, by which time we won’t be a draw to any top manager without paying well over the odds. And the longer this goes on, the less able we will be to finance something like that.

[Mac76]

Auba through the middle is a myth we all seem so obsessed with. In none of his previous teams has he played as a central striker. In Dortmund as well as with Gabon. Besides there are no chains on him. He is a good striker no doubt but he is not a terrier in say the mould of jamie vardy. He wont fight to get goals. Its either perfectly placed for him to score or no dice. Dortmund got on fine without him. We do not play an effective system and we have a really really bad midfield. The centre mids are supposed to provide a bulwark against opposition attacks and generate potent offence. Do you think even this shit team would not be 3 levels better with peak Vieira and Petit?. We can rant and rave as much as we like but this team is structurally deficient. It is easier to coach defenders because the scenarios they have to deal with are more predictable so journeymen as we see in many teams like Sheff Utd and Burnley and the like can defend quite competently. But how are you going to coach competent midfielders who do not have it in their innate being to be both spatially aware and capable of feeding the front strikers.

Our delusion that Auba will save us is grossly misplaced. He is ot van Persie, he is not even Alexis Sanchez. He is not that guy. We need badly to ditch our midfield pairing and get players that can do a proper job there. we have the wing play sorted I think and Martinelli can deliver enough in place of Auba. There is absolutely no need to spend 300k to keep him while keeping Xhaka and Ozil to feed him. This is a club now in obvious financial peril. We need to be wiser both on the pitch and off it.

I agree our midfield is weak, not everyone will agree but i still think Ozil can play a role but you need a high-class well-organised enforcer in there to counter him roving around.

We've missed Torreira in these two games - Ceballos isn't substantial enough and Guendouzi is a very raw talent, and i can't stand Xhaka and won't be happy until he and Mustafi are gone

i can see it both ways on whether we keep Auba (although i think it's academic as he will surely leave) but in the very short-term, i.e. this season we should be making the best of him - whether he's played through the middle elsewhere or not, are you seriously saying Nketiah or Laca are a better shout than having Saka on the left and Auba in the middle? - that's the point, if Auba's on the left then Saka is not in what seems like his best position

Martinelli should definitely be getting more game time too but I'm not sure how you fit him, Pepe, Auba and Saka in - as you say if Auba goes then that will be solved for next season, i'd be perfectly happy to see Saka, Martinelli and Pepe line up

[Globalgunner]

Auba through the middle is a myth we all seem so obsessed with. In none of his previous teams has he played as a central striker. In Dortmund as well as with Gabon. Besides there are no chains on him. He is a good striker no doubt but he is not a terrier in say the mould of jamie vardy. He wont fight to get goals. Its either perfectly placed for him to score or no dice. Dortmund got on fine without him. We do not play an effective system and we have a really really bad midfield. The centre mids are supposed to provide a bulwark against opposition attacks and generate potent offence. Do you think even this shit team would not be 3 levels better with peak Vieira and Petit?. We can rant and rave as much as we like but this team is structurally deficient. It is easier to coach defenders because the scenarios they have to deal with are more predictable so journeymen as we see in many teams like Sheff Utd and Burnley and the like can defend quite competently. But how are you going to coach competent midfielders who do not have it in their innate being to be both spatially aware and capable of feeding the front strikers.

Our delusion that Auba will save us is grossly misplaced. He is not van Persie, he is not even Alexis Sanchez. He is not that guy. We need badly to ditch our midfield pairing and get players that can do a proper job there. Look at Leicester's midfield. Head and shoulders above ours. Do you think Vardy would be that good with Xhaka and Ozil in his team?. We have the wing play sorted I think and Martinelli can deliver enough in place of Auba. There is absolutely no need to spend 300k to keep him while keeping Xhaka and Ozil to feed him. This is a club now in obvious financial peril. We need to be wiser both on the pitch and off it.

[Globalgunner]

Sorry i had to repost because i didnt want it to seem like a reply to your post with which i mostly agree

You are right, but Ozil is yesterdays news. If we had been strategic and wanted to keep him then we should have got an experienced manager like Ancelotti who may have found a better use for him albeit it was Ancelloti who dumped him at Madrid....because he has no character, no personality. Ozil is Ozil. i dont think anything can change him. He is a player in whose mind has soared above criticism. He wont stress himself in any game

We are a dumpster fire and we hire a kid down the road to put it out. crazy crazy management at the highest level

to my mind if we are going to play Auba central then we either have 5 at the back with overlapping wingbacks or 5 in midfield. Either way both Saka and Tierney must play together and both Bellerin and Pepe. Auba through the middle but i bet you ha and saka will be exchanging position simply because Auba always drifts to the wing

[Mac76]

to my mind if we are going to play Auba central then we either have 5 at the back with overlapping wingbacks or 5 in midfield. Either way both Saka and Tierney must play together and both Bellerin and Pepe. Auba through the middle but i bet you ha and saka will be exchanging position simply because Auba always drifts to the wing

maybe he might, but if that's something which goes back and forth through a match then that could be a good thing to confuse the opposition.

couldn't agree more with those combinations on the left and right, that should always be our starting point - we need Bellerin and Pepe to build an understanding, that hasn't happened yet but they can develop that

[Letters]

The last para in your post nails it.

This Club was in no position to take a punt on an untested Manager. We needed someone with the proven ability and respect of players to sort this mess out.

At best it is looking like another 2-3 years wasted, by which time we won’t be a draw to any top manager without paying well over the odds. And the longer this goes on, the less able we will be to finance something like that.

Right, but wasn't Emery the more established manager? And last season showed some promise. A Wengeresque collapse at the end and we capitulated in the Europa League final, but overall not a bad season and a base to build on. This season it's all gone to shit and maybe MO is right that last season was the blip but even in Wenger's last season we were nowhere near this hopeless.

[Niall_Quinn]

Right, but wasn't Emery the more established manager? And last season showed some promise. A Wengeresque collapse at the end and we capitulated in the Europa League final, but overall not a bad season and a base to build on. This season it's all gone to shit and maybe MO is right that last season was the blip but even in Wenger's last season we were nowhere near this hopeless.

Yes we were, in many respects. As soon as a major challenge arrived we would fold, guaranteed. All the danger signs were well established. The increasingly awful football. The chaos at the back. But at least we still had enough to carry off flat track bully status. Now we can't manage that either, but it's more down to the failure to arrest the steady decline. Kroenke is about the only person who can actually change this. He won't.

[Globalgunner]

Letters completely forgets the comedy in catastrophe that marked Wengers later years. Wengers team would also routinely go through 45 even 90 mins without a shot on target. Would play the same strategy for 90 mins wether we were losing or winning. Enabling the opposition manager to change tactics while we remained static and predictable. This was a team that could NEVER hold on to a goal lead with only 90 seconds left on the clock but would fold like cardboard in the rain.

The bottom line is he saddled us with dumb players like Xhaka and Mustafi, strollers like Ozil. They are still the leadweight holding this team down both on the pitch and in the accounts department.

But I digress. Who in their right mind really thought that Arteta would solve this problem. Ancelotti would have signed on in a 6 month capacity...He did same with Chelsea. we needed experience instead we went full night out in Las Vegas. We bet it all on black....black shiny hair.

[Letters]

I can't agree we were this bad.
We won exactly half our league games that season, so far we have won under a third (30% exactly right now)
We scored goals at a rate of 1.95/game in 2017/18, this year it's been 1.37.
We are even shipping goals at a slightly higher rate this year although that is close.
We have got worse by any metric you pick.

[Letters]

Letters completely forgets the comedy in catastrophe that marked Wengers later years. Wengers team would also routinely go through 45 even 90 mins without a shot on target. Would play the same strategy for 90 mins wether we were losing or winning. Enabling the opposition manager to change tactics while we remained static and predictable. This was a team that could NEVER hold on to a goal lead with only 90 seconds left on the clock but would fold like cardboard in the rain.
Letters isn't forgetting any of those things. But for all those failings we were never anywhere near this bad under Wenger. Literally never.
We've spent heavily since he left and got worse.

[Niall_Quinn]

At the time, many fans were saying that if Wenger didn't go, and go quickly, he'd do structural damage that would reduce us to mid-table status. Many other fans laughed at that notion. But it was pretty obvious. Anyone who watched us going from dominating games to barely being able to compete in them, while Wenger sang the praises of mediocre players who were "doing their own thing" and training themselves, could see the writing on the wall that Wenger was oblivious to. And he instilled the culture of second best upwards as well and down, and it was gratefully accepted no doubt.

The virus spread everywhere, infected everything and had the worst effect on the squad who gradually transformed from warriors who fought from the tunnel to the final whistle (and often afterwards), to pigmies who couldn't go five minutes without an injury and were simply brushed aside by more robust opponents. The football fell apart and Wenger encouraged it. "We lacked a little bit sharpness." Code for we were outfought on every level.

That's what Emery inherited and, unfortunately, he wasn't nearly strong enough to whip this spoiled squad into shape. The players ate him up. Now, I suppose, they'll try to do the same with Arteta and the only way he's really going to win this is by putting his foot down and getting rid of half of them. But where will the replacements come from? Wenger sold Stan on sustainability (and probably lost half his arm during the pitch). Wenger's culture of failure is cemented into the club, every player he touched carries the concrete boots of his legacy (or have already run a million miles in the opposite direction). Emery was a big name but not big enough. The biggest flaw with hiring Arteta was the hope the squad would respect a rookie. Plainly they don't. Once the honeymoon was over (2 games was it?) it was a rapid return to the old ways. I reckon Pep or Klopp would struggle here. Players who have lost the will to win? No money from Kroenke?

Wenger lit the fires and watched them burn while he fiddled here and fiddled there. But it'll take a while for the whole thing to burn down. It's burning from the inside out, so it still looks intact from a distance and it might be a few seasons yet before we face our first serious relegation battle. I can't see it going the other way, unless Kroenke can be shifted. Why would he want to go though?

[Niall_Quinn]

As for spending - it's not spending like you'll see at Liverpool or City, is it? Or Utd. When we spend, the money has to come back from somewhere, or the following season needs to be sacrificed. And even when we do spend, we end up with Pepe. Pepe might be a decent player is a free-flowing, attacking team. But who thought he'd tear it up in a team that plays at 1mph, with back to the opponent's goal and tapping sideways and backwards? Kante was the player we needed, not Pepe. Next time we spend it will be on the back of Auba heading out. And with inflation rampant, what are you going to get for a replacement? We've spent, but we haven't spend well. Which is pretty much the same as under Wenger. There were exceptions, there are exceptions now. But much of the business we have done is inexplicable in a football sense. Not much has changed. Still a shitshow.

[Letters]

At the time, many fans were saying that if Wenger didn't go, and go quickly, he'd do structural damage that would reduce us to mid-table status.

Actually, what many fans were saying was that if Wenger stayed we would end up in mid-table under him - never happened, people were saying it for years and we were never a mid-table side under him, not even in his last season which was by far his worst. And many fans also said that he was so incompetent than anyone would come in and we would do better - nope again, after one season where there was a tiny bit of improvement we have crashed and burned.

This apparently terrible squad Wenger left us with finished 5th last year, a couple of points off 3rd. We were as good (or bad, let's face it, the top 2 aside this is not a good league) as anyone. And we got to the Europa League final. That's what the squad Wenger left us with was capable of. It was a decent platform to build on.

Things went to shit this year, under Emery. Now, it's still largely Wenger's squad of course so fine, he doesn't get off scott free. But even in his last season he got them to finish 6th. How did he do that if he was so awful? And how did Emery get them to finish 5th if the squad is so awful?

You and others were for years were saying that Wenger was so bad that anyone would do better.
You were wrong, you have been proven wrong no matter how much you try and reframe the evidence and retrospectively try and amend your claims.

[Niall_Quinn]

Actually, what many fans were saying was that if Wenger stayed we would end up in mid-table under him - never happened, people were saying it for years and we were never a mid-table side under him, not even in his last season which was by far his worst. And many fans also said that he was so incompetent than anyone would come in and we would do better - nope again, after one season where there was a tiny bit of improvement we have crashed and burned.

This apparently terrible squad Wenger left us with finished 5th last year, a couple of points off 3rd. We were as good (or bad, let's face it, the top 2 aside this is not a good league) as anyone. And we got to the Europa League final. That's what the squad Wenger left us with was capable of. It was a decent platform to build on.

Things went to shit this year, under Emery. Now, it's still largely Wenger's squad of course so fine, he doesn't get off scott free. But even in his last season he got them to finish 6th. How did he do that if he was so awful? And how did Emery get them to finish 5th if the squad is so awful?

You and others were for years were saying that Wenger was so bad that anyone would do better.
You were wrong, you have been proven wrong no matter how much you try and reframe the evidence and retrospectively try and amend your claims.

You know that when a car goes off a cliff you don't die until you hit the bottom? I just explained how Wenger baked failure into every aspect of the club. A club that had been competing right at the top of the game. It takes time to go from hero to zero, doesn't happen overnight. Our players aren't individually terrible. Some of them are, but some are competent enough. But when you have a catastrophic culture, prehistoric methods and a complete inability to recognise developing problems (which were Wenger's chief achievements and attributes in his final years) it's going to make it harder for anyone or everyone to turn things around. So far nobody has been able to repair the damage. Emery came closest until he ran into Wenger's love affair with collapse and capitulation he'd shared with every player. Those players are nowhere near good enough to do it on their own. The last manager was nowhere near strong enough to do it on his own. Arteta is ambitious, eager, probably thinks he can do a job. But I doubt anyone can. Wenger comprehensively Wrecked it from top to bottom. No stone was left untuned. We'll be paying the price for a long time. Look how long Liverpool were in the dark, and Utd before them.

[Letters]

Right. Except...that's not what you were saying when Wenger was here.
Back then it was "he's so incompetent that anyone could do better". Lots of people were saying it was him dragging us down and when he'd left we'd do better.
Now when that has been quite clearly shown to be wrong you're changing your stance.
Which I guess is fine, we have more data now. But be a good chap and admit it.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I remember many saying, I was one of them, the longer he stayed the more likely it would be that we’d pass the tipping point.

And some years before that I was saying if we kept selling off our best players we’d do the same.

Arsenal kept Wenger too long and we sold off far too much talent - and on the cheap.

The result is the shambles of a structure we see now.

[Globalgunner]

Letters will never accept that Wenger was to blame.....and even if he was to blame. He was really wasn't to blame

[Niall_Quinn]

Right. Except...that's not what you were saying when Wenger was here.
Back then it was "he's so incompetent that anyone could do better". Lots of people were saying it was him dragging us down and when he'd left we'd do better.
Now when that has been quite clearly shown to be wrong you're changing your stance.
Which I guess is fine, we have more data now. But be a good chap and admit it.

Except I'm not changing anything. I said Wenger would destroy the club. And he did. We can see the results with our own eyes. I'm not sure why this is even a debate any more.

I'm not trying to take away his earlier achievements. Some of the high points in my life revolve around his early achievements. I won't swap those and I won't have a word said against Wenger in those days. But he was a one-trick pony and as soon as everyone else copied him (and you get extra credit when everyone else copies you) he had nothing else. It's just a fact. And for a decade, he lived on past reputation while delivering - nothing else. And every fucker bought right into it, especially our board. And so we became the most mediocre club on the planet. A club rich in culture, tradition, and even money - that has zero ambition. Wenger served that up on a plate to the nothings that own this club now. Wenger demanded nothing, everyone delivered nothing. And that became the culture of the club. He thought his vision was enough to overturn the cynicism and cold, calculating methods of his rivals was the right way to proceed. That was foolish. He was routed. I admire his principle, but I hate that spirit he always claimed we possessed. Because we didn't. It was that lack of spirit that killed the whole club. We became victims instead of winners. Everyone cheated us, we were so unlucky, we gloriously failed - but the one thing you could be sure of - we failed. Wenger's legacy. Because he stayed too long.

[Mac76]

He was really wasn't to blame

Was that a deliberately self-contradictory statement? :wacko:

[Niall_Quinn]

Was that a deliberately self-contradictory statement?

He's predicting what Letters is going to say next.

[Letters]

Except I'm not changing anything. I said Wenger would destroy the club. And he did. We can see the results with our own eyes. I'm not sure why this is even a debate any more.
Cognitive dissonance :bow:

Dude, for someone who is well aware of these psychological effects, you sure are prone to them.
You said loudly and repeatedly that Wenger was so inept that anyone would do better. Every time I told you that you were being ridiculous you doubled down.
And now you're completely changing that to "well of course no-one can do better because of the damage Wenger did, it doesn't matter who our manager is".

:shrug:

As I've said, Wenger doesn't get off scott free for the mess we are seeing right now, but the fact is the squad he left us with finished 5th last season on 70 points and got to the Europa League final. It was a solid enough base to work on and I don't believe for one minute that we'd be this bad this season under Wenger (which doesn't mean I want him back). So Wenger isn't solely to blame either.

I wouldn't say Wenger was a one trick pony but his ideas, once revolutionary, were soon copied and other clubs started doing things better.
The billionaires bowling in was a factor too. Looking back he always had certain tactical weaknesses, but when your squad is better and fitter than the rest you can cope with that. When they're not those failings become all too evident. That said, he did well keeping us in the top 4 when we didn't have much money to spend and I'm pleased he won the FA Cups, he deserved something to mark the latter part of his time with us and I wish he'd gone after the last one rather than staying that extra season. Some people were acting like Wenger was THE problem and as soon as he left all would be well, I never bought that although I did think a different manager would improve things and am baffled by just how bloody awful we are this season, we were never this bad under Wenger and we were much better than this last season.

[Marc Overmars]

Wenger no doubt oversaw the start of the decline but since he left it’s all down to the duds we hired off the pitch, the continued poor recruitment and lack of any real strategy being the biggest factors.

[Niall_Quinn]

Not sure you know what that term means tbf.

What you're trying to do here is defuse the original premise by referring back to something I said in relation to the issue, but not related to the premise. Once the false equivalency is drawn you can then say, look, you were wrong about that latter, so you must be wrong about the former too (even though that doesn't work logically either).

I can go and watch the worst team on the planet (or I used to be able to) and loudly sing, "We're by FAR the greatest team...!" That has not made the team better in any way.

I said literally anyone could do a better job than Wenger. Believe it or not, I had not hired a supercomputer and run all possible permutations and projections prior to making that statement. I think we all secretly knew there might be somebody out there who could do a worse job, like a spud loving arsonist or Gary Neville, for example. So it's a little desperate to be using this benchmark as a last ditch defence for Wenger.

You then say Wenger was 5th, Arteta is 10th and so, Wenger is better than Arteta. Simple.

I wonder, if a hopelessly inexperienced Arteta could have done any worse than Wenger in those last few years? The residue talent of the declining squad could have propped Arteta up, as it propped Wenger, maybe. Maybe Arteta wouldn't have been so complacent with the defence. Impossible to say. Just as we can only predict what it would be like if Wenger had been appointed now, to rejuvenate a club in decline. For me, Wenger did far more harm than he ever did good in his last years. Deep damage that will have a long knock-on effect. If you'd put a complete rookie in his place at the time, could that rookie have done even more damage? I say that's open for legitimate debate.

That's why I said, at the time, we should have stuck with Emery. I think it will take several years for any one manager to genuinely repair and reverse Wenger's legacy. I didn't think Emery was all that, didn't think so when he was hired. But I knew he had a hell of a job on his hands, thanks to Wenger's negligence. In the end Emery couldn't change anything much so it's back to the starting line with Arteta. He'll have to be given at least 3 years, maybe more, to clear out the squad and build a new one, untouched by Wenger, that has the required character to compete at this level. He probably won't get those 3 years. I can already see fans suggesting he should be gone so a magician can be brought in to magic away Wenger's mess.

[Letters]

Not sure you know what that term means tbf.
Such a lazy tactic, you do this sort of thing so often. If you haven't read Black Box Thinking by Matthew Syed then I'd recommend it, he talks about Cognitive Dissonance at length.

The original premise was the claim that anyone would be better than Wenger. Couple of quotes:
"We know we aren't hiring Allardyce or anyone from that bunch - although they would do a much better job than Wenger, btw"
"Mark Hughes would be an improvement on Wenger, so if we ended up with a manager like Tuchel that would leaping fifty levels up from the rancid shit bastard we have in charge of wrecking the place right now."


You then say Wenger was 5th, Arteta is 10th and so, Wenger is better than Arteta. Simple.

No, I didn't say that. I simply said that we are now doing demonstrably worse than under Wenger. Ergo, the original premise was incorrect.

I'm not blaming Arteta for that as he's only just walked in the door, relatively speaking. Neither am I absolving Wenger of blame as this is still largely his squad.
But the squad he left us with did OK last year, it was an improvement on Wenger's last season. Something to build on. It's all gone on to shit this season.
Some people on here were acting like it was Wenger dragging us down - not playing the right team, playing people out of position and so on, poor tactics, not motivating the players, etc. I didn't entirely disagree, he was doing some of those things. So it followed that a new manager would improve things. Another quote:

"my solution to the problem is to sack him now, today. And get absolutely anyone in for the remainder of the season. It would energise the whole club and add a whole new dimension to the European challenge. I believe it would energise the squad too."

But that hasn't happened. We can't know how Arteta would have done had he been in charge for Wenger's last few seasons. Neither can we know how we'd be doing now if Wenger was in charge. My gut feel is not this badly, but it's impossible to know. The only evidence for thinking it would have been this bad is the last few seasons under Wenger. The points in each season were:
75, 71, 75, 63

Big drop in that last season and Wenger's worst season by a distance. So you could extrapolate. But it's hard to argue that it was start of a terminal decline when Emery got 70 in his first season, comparable with the previous 3 seasons before Wenger's last. It's only this year that the wheels have really fallen off in a way which they never did under Wenger.

Before Wenger left people were claiming that he was so inept that anyone would do better.
Now that has shown to be false the claim is that no-one could have done better because of the damage Wenger did.
You can't have it both ways :shrug:

[KSE Comedy Club]

Auba needs to be benched, bring Martinelli in.

The guy clearly looks as if he is off at the end of the season and if he hasn't signed a new deal by now, then he should not be playing.

It's time we toughened up as a club instead of just talking about it.

Other than that, subs were shit, team was spineless, Arteta looks clueless.

Football is back - yay.

[Niall_Quinn]

The original premise was the claim that anyone would be better than Wenger.

LOL :haha:

That's what YOU inserted to distract from the actual discussion. I wasn't originally talking about anyone being better than Wenger, I was talking about the fundamental damage he did that has left the club in the shit it finds itself in today. YOU interjected with what you now claim to be the premise. Such a lazy tactic, you do this sort of thing so often.

[Letters]

I wasn't originally talking about anyone being better than Wenger,

You might want to tell that to the quotes from your posts...

[Niall_Quinn]

Btw, I'll stand right behind that Allardyce quote. If we'd have sacked Wenger 5 years earlier and hired Allardyce, I have no doubt the squad would be a lot closer to a coherent, competitive team than it currently is. Same with Hughes, or Coyle or any of the joke suggestions. None of them are good enough for the top level, but at least they aren't blind to the fundamentals as Wenger ended up being.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Right. Except...that's not what you were saying when Wenger was here.
Back then it was "he's so incompetent that anyone could do better". Lots of people were saying it was him dragging us down and when he'd left we'd do better.
Now when that has been quite clearly shown to be wrong you're changing your stance.
Which I guess is fine, we have more data now. But be a good chap and admit it.

Why do you still keep bringing this up?

I get your point, but it's over and done with and we are where we are.

Literally, no-one else cares about this except for you.

It's quite bizarre, like an incessant infatuation kind of thing:shrug:

[Niall_Quinn]

You might want to tell that to the quotes from your posts...

Which quotes, the ones from years ago that you have used to avoid the point I was actually making?

"I said Wenger would destroy the club. And he did. We can see the results with our own eyes."

And he did. And I blame Emery for not being able to do anything about it, and unless Arteta can somehow find a way then I'll blame him for failing too. But the CAUSE of the massive decline is Wenger, the man who changed our game entirely, made our defence on ongoing joke, let the quality of the squad slip into the gutter and refused to change as the humiliating blows from serious clubs rained down one after the other. Emery and Arteta haven't come close to making such a show of themselves.

[I am invisible]

I loved Wenger as much as anyone - still do - but he really has tucked us up with the sky high player wages and the communal wage structure that he pushed so hard for. IMO, it's far more problematic than the general decline in standards and culture (both of which can be fixed with new personnel), because it completely hamstrings our ability to change anything. It's saddled us with a collection of bang-average players, on astronomical CL wages, who are basically unsellable because no one else wants them or can afford them.

And the worst thing is the players know it! If they hadn't already worked it out before, then the disastrous attempts to oust Özil and Mustafi last summer would have proven it beyond doubt - not only did both moves utterly fail, but within a few weeks we'd had to recall both players to the side because we had no other choice! What a shocking message that sent out.

If this absolute shower of a season has proven anything it's that you can't really trust or work with players who know that they are untouchable, and unfortunately that's pretty much all of our senior players these days. Auba at least seemed to have enough professional pride left in him to at least play for his move away, but the rest of them are so obviously just milking their fat Arsenal contracts for everything they can it's painful. Not one of them, Auba included, is really committed to this club, IMO, and it shows every time we face any kind of adversity. No one ever steps up - far easier to just throw a strop and get yourself dropped while you continue to get paid.

Seriously, this season is done. We're not getting anything else out of our senior players now - they've already mentally checked-out and are now in full self-preservation mode, looking for moves. Whatever little bit of unity and pride we'd managed to restore when Arteta first took over has been completely wiped out by Covid-19. When most of your players only care about their salary and their contracts, and those contracts are then threatened, then that's it! You've lost them. There's nothing else commanding their loyalty or their professionalism.

The one good thing that might come out of this mess, if we can somehow limp through these last few games, is that it might accelerate a few departures. If club revenue all across Europe has nose-dived, then maybe the days of fat signing-on fees from free transfers are over (at least for the foreseeable), and that might make a few of our players question whether it's worth hanging around for another year, or whether they might be better off pushing for a move now, while they still have an extra year of youth to offer?

[Letters]

Why do you still keep bringing this up?

I get your point, but it's over and done with and we are where we are.
It's part of an ongoing conversation, the start of which was me being somewhat baffled about how we are contriving to be quite this terrible this season.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's part of an ongoing conversation, the start of which was me being somewhat baffled about how we are contriving to be quite this terrible this season.

And then going into one when you were reminded all of this was easily predicted long ago.

[Bumble]

are things so bad, positionally yes but we lost 10 last year and we have lost 8 this year. only 3 teams have lost fewer than us. So its fine margins between drawing and winning. The Wenger v the next managers, obviously we cant prove had we stuck with Wenger where we would be, it was right for him to go as I doubt had he stayed we would be any better off than we are now. The atmosphere (pre Covid) would have been even more toxic.

I do think a Benitez manager might have been better, not in quality of football but with organisation and structure. the players would know what sort of manager he was and understand that. With Arteta what sort of manager is he, its a huge job for your first managerial role. I do think you give him to the end of next season unless we are relegation candidates and take stock then.

Maybe without European football might help, we wont be playing catch up by playing Thursday then Sunday.

[Marc Overmars]

Mari is out for 3 months. What is it with our loan signings? They're always bloody useless in one way or another.

Sounds like he will be made a permanent signing though.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Martinelli has injured his knee and is out for months as well.

If it's any consolation, it looks like Luiz is signing a new deal...

[Marc Overmars]

Yep, Martinelli is fucked too.

This season could not be more of a pile of steaming hot garbage if it tried.

[Letters]

And then going into one when you were reminded all of this was easily predicted long ago.

:lol: You literally predicted the opposite and now are just pretending you didn't, even though I found the quotes where you did

[Letters]

are things so bad, positionally yes but we lost 10 last year and we have lost 8 this year. only 3 teams have lost fewer than us. So its fine margins between drawing and winning.
Yeah, the issue is all the draws. We lost a lot of games in Wenger's last season but we won a fair number too and it all added up to a bad season but not this bad. Personally, I don't think we'd be this bad under Wenger simply because we never were and while it's tempting to compare his last 2 seasons and draw a line which continues downwards it should be remembered that you could do that between 2004-6, that line didn't continue downwards, I don't think this one would have either, we will never know.
But I think we can all agree he wasn't going to improve things and he stayed too long. If nothing else we now have a manager who doesn't have Wenger's legacy and therefore is easier to get rid off if things don't get better.
Personally, I don't think this squad is as bad as the result suggest, we seem to be significantly less than the sum of our parts. I'm not convinced Arteta is the right person to fix that but I'd give him another season to find out.


Maybe without European football might help, we wont be playing catch up by playing Thursday then Sunday.

Agreed. I think we maybe need a season out of Europe, other big clubs have managed it.