Match Reaction v Liverpool (away)

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Klopp finally gets one over Verdasco.

I don't really care to be honest.

On we go, Anfield next up. :haha:

[Mac76]

it was a fair scoreline and Liverpool weren't even that good

pretty bad team selection from Arteta tbh, gave us no chance - we only looked dangerous when Ceballos came on

[Xhaka Can’t]

I disagree.

I thought we looked dangerous all game.

Just not in a good way.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's our millionth away game against the top 6 without a win. Something like that.

[Master Splinter]

All four goals came from mistakes and poor defending. Not a high-quality match, despite the commentators trying to convince you otherwise.

I also think Saka, being one of our best players, should probably be involved in most of our matches. He was cutting through Liverppol at Wembley but now has to settle for a place on the bench behind a blunt Willian and a hopeless Pepe.

Lacazette also showed once again that he's not reliable in terms of his general play or his finishing if we want to be a top team. Give Nketiah a consistent run or play Auba there.

The ref was a massive cheat again even though Liverpool didn't need his help.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Moral victory for us as our midfield didn't have Aouar and Partey in it.

:bow:

[Marc Overmars]

Even with 1 goal in it for most of the game we barely plucked up the courage to have a go. We can’t keep approaching these games with tactics that are more befitting of a team at the bottom of the league.

Liverpool are streets ahead of us and that was evident but we’ve got to be braver if we want to ever hope of winning at one of these big grounds again.

[Letters]

Only saw the second half and thought we did ok.
Let’s face it, Liverpool are a level above us.
They’re a level above everyone right now.
They won every home league game last season before they fluffed their lines on their last game.
They haven’t lost at home for over 3 years in the league.
In the bit I saw we didn’t embarrass ourselves. Had Laca not shat his pants we could even have equalised.
So...meh.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Klopp and Keane having a tear up.

It was overly defensive, Arteta has found a way of keeping us in these games but you can't rely on it forever.

Citeh away as our next away league game, would hope we are far more positive in attacking there.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It is sickening how we have approached these games like a smalltime club.

We may now be small time, but we shouldn't approach games in that manner.

[Letters]

It is sickening how we have approached these games like a smalltime club.

We may now be small time, but we shouldn't approach games in that manner.
We aren’t small time, but we aren’t at Liverpool’s level either.
I’d rather see a performance like I did tonight in the second half than us go there, try and attack them and get completely spanked.
Laca should have equalised, after that...well, we’d probably have still lost but I thought the performance, or the part I saw, was pretty decent.

[Mac76]

Only saw the second half and thought we did ok.
.

it was better than the first half but that's really not saying much - actually it's not saying anything at all...

[Xhaka Can’t]

We aren’t small time, but we aren’t at Liverpool’s level either.
I’d rather see a performance like I did tonight in the second half than us go there, try and attack them and get completely spanked.
Laca should have equalised, after that...well, we’d probably have still lost but I thought the performance, or the part I saw, was pretty decent.

The first half was record breaking on how impotent we were. It literally was.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It is sickening how we have approached these games like a smalltime club.

We may now be small time, but we shouldn't approach games in that manner.

Better that than this nonsense.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46656883

[Xhaka Can’t]

We could have saved all this nonsense by forfeiting the match.

There is no point turning up and approaching the game in the way we did today.

[Master Splinter]

We are still one of the worst teams for conceding straight after we've taken the lead.

Poor concentration, mentality and most of all poor technique, which is the biggest offender in most of our mistakes. Better players and trusting some of the younger players would make a big difference. It's early in the season obviously, but these have been our biggest issues in recent years. Despite improved performances, the costy mistakes are still coming from the experienced players. I hope Arteta doesn't continue to fall into the trap of being conservative in his team selection and eventually gives the younger players with more dynamism and upside to their game a proper chance. Otherwise, we're just stuck in an eternal mediocre loop.

[Marc Overmars]

It’s a balancing act in terms of how these games should be approached as you don’t want to go gung ho and get spanked. However what we saw tonight is pretty much now our only tactic in these games because we’ve seen it multiple times. We created one chance in the entire match, the rest was just hopeful rubbish which as I said is what you see from teams at the bottom of the league who play to avoid defeat, rather than win. In fact some of them cause more problems for the top sides than we ever do because they’re not as afraid to have a go as we are.

Maybe Partey or Aouar could change that. We’ll see but I hope this isn’t going to be Arteta’s identity as a coach going forward and he’s just waiting on more players who fit his mould.

[Chippy]

Klopp finally gets one over Verdasco.

I don't really care to be honest.

On we go, Anfield next up. :haha:
Arteta out TBH :sarcy:

[selassie]

Liverpool are a much better team than us, I think only Auba would get in their starting XI from our current team, the rest wouldn’t have a hope, many of them wouldn’t even make Liverpool’s bench.

There is no shame in losing to them, they are the best team in the country by a distance, we aren’t even in the top 6 at the minute. Arteta is doing good work and IF we secure Aouar & Partey then we should improve significantly as a team but there is still plenty of work to do.

We are still very early in our rebuild phase, achieving top 4 even this season would be huge for us because right now we are not a CL level team.

[hobson's choice]

Weird game, as neither team was really that sharp. We weren't horrible, terrible, or any off that really. This game just highlighted our weaknesses.

Central Midfield(Xhaka), and until that gets fixed, we are going to have games like this.

Our defending, which has improved, but today shows they still need some work. Like 3 players don't need to track 1 player over and over again, leaving gaps throughout the back

Goalie, Leno has now decided to be crap

And lastly Willian was at fault for the 2nd goal, completely lost sight off Robertson

[Chippy]

Weird game, as neither team was really that sharp. We weren't horrible, terrible, or any off that really. This game just highlighted our weaknesses.

Central Midfield(Xhaka), and until that gets fixed, we are going to have games like this.

Our defending, which has improved, but today shows they still need some work. Like 3 players don't need to track 1 player over and over again, leaving gaps throughout the back

Goalie, Leno has now decided to be crap

And lastly Willian was at fault for the 2nd goal, completely lost sight off Robertson
True about Leno. Another clean sheet tonight for Martinez :rolleyes:

[Niall_Quinn]

Leno has been pretty average all along tbf. Good shot stopper, but that's about all. We tend to get excited at Arsenal if the keeper isn't Almunia.

[selassie]

Leno has been pretty average all along tbf. Good shot stopper, but that's about all. We tend to get excited at Arsenal if the keeper isn't Almunia.

Leno literally refuses to come off his line for crosses, his command of the box is the complete opposite of Martinez. Sad considering the best keepers in PL are all great at commanding their box.

Leno is a decent enough shot shopper, but his performance last night was poor.

[Globalgunner]

I dont know who is going to come in and teach out knuckleheads not to disintegrate like wet biscuits when under pressure. Soon as the pressure is on we panic, start heading or passing the ball to the very attackers putting us under pressure. It would be hilarious if not so pathetic. Nothing really has changed in 2006.
Ok on we go. So who do we have next.......Who?......Ah shit!

[Bumble]

considering we normally take a right hammering at anfield. At least we stayed organised and hung in there. Even had a chance to equalise. But thought liverpool were very good. But they provide a model to aim at no point people moaning about financial doping as good recruitment and training can win out.

October looks tricky though liverpool again sheff u city Leicester and united

[Mac76]

Leno literally refuses to come off his line for crosses, his command of the box is the complete opposite of Martinez. Sad considering the best keepers in PL are all great at commanding their box.

Leno is a decent enough shot shopper, but his performance last night was poor.

it was a real mistake to let go of Martinez and keep Leno as number 1, also a terrible mistake to bring Sideshow Bob back in instead of Gabriel

and a third terrible mistake to have xhaka alongside elneny - when he came on, ceballos immediately showed why he should have started

arteta got this one wrong - very wrong

if we'd given Liverpool more to worry about going forward it wouldn't have been anywhere near as one-sided as it turned out - i'll say again, Liverpool didn't even play very well

[Ollie the Optimist]

I suspect Liverpool would probably still have won, but you do wonder how different the game would have been if Mane had been sent off in the second minute as he should have been.


so glad that VAR is there to give some nonsense penalty decisions but ignore a clear elbow to the face. What’s the fucking point of it?

[Marc Overmars]

The annoying thing for me is that it’s not even just away at the top sides we see this kind of performance. It was the same against West Ham and there have been plenty of other occasions where it’s very much safety first. Maybe this is what we needed to improve structurally but it’s certainly not football I get any joy from watching, for years Arsenal have always been about creativity but that seems to be a thing of the past now.

[Mac76]

i thought we'd play more positively after winning the FA Cup and also Community shield, as Arteta now has enough goodwill in the bank to be bolder, but am disappointed in how conservative he's being

he's not giving attacking players like Saka and Ceballos enough time on the pitch

[Gooner23]

I suspect Liverpool would probably still have won, but you do wonder how different the game would have been if Mane had been sent off in the second minute as he should have been.


so glad that VAR is there to give some nonsense penalty decisions but ignore a clear elbow to the face. What’s the fucking point of it?

The more replays I have seen the worse it looks. Think it was quite deliberate and should have been a red.

[selassie]

The more replays I have seen the worse it looks. Think it was quite deliberate and should have been a red.

If it was one of our lot it would have been a Red, there I said it!

[selassie]

it was a real mistake to let go of Martinez and keep Leno as number 1, also a terrible mistake to bring Sideshow Bob back in instead of Gabriel

and a third terrible mistake to have xhaka alongside elneny - when he came on, ceballos immediately showed why he should have started

arteta got this one wrong - very wrong

if we'd given Liverpool more to worry about going forward it wouldn't have been anywhere near as one-sided as it turned out - i'll say again, Liverpool didn't even play very well

Yeah agree with all of this. Especially the bit about Ceballos, why on earth did he not start?

[Niall_Quinn]

i thought we'd play more positively after winning the FA Cup and also Community shield, as Arteta now has enough goodwill in the bank to be bolder, but am disappointed in how conservative he's being

he's not giving attacking players like Saka and Ceballos enough time on the pitch

He may be having to un-train them before he can get down to training them. A lot of bad habits and bad attitudes picked up over the years. This could be our wax-on, wax-off period, maybe? Then paint a few fences, clean a car and suddenly we'll spring into action and beat the shit out of everyone. Maybe.

It might not be that though. Because we aren't even all that with wax.

[selassie]

I suspect Liverpool would probably still have won, but you do wonder how different the game would have been if Mane had been sent off in the second minute as he should have been.


so glad that VAR is there to give some nonsense penalty decisions but ignore a clear elbow to the face. What’s the fucking point of it?

They would have still beaten us even with 10 men IMO.

[Ollie the Optimist]

They would have still beaten us even with 10 men IMO.

I’m inclined to agree but then again, 88 minutes with 10 men and not able to produce an effective press up front may have changed the game.

Liverpool were very good at putting pressure on our defence when they had the ball with Mane, Salah & Firmino all pressing. Take Mane out and maybe not so effective

[Letters]

it was a real mistake to let go of Martinez and keep Leno as number 1
Agreed. Leno doesn't look that commanding.

[I am invisible]

Yeah, we'd better do something impressive with that £20m because at the moment it looks like we let the better keeper go.

[hobson's choice]

The annoying thing for me is that it’s not even just away at the top sides we see this kind of performance. It was the same against West Ham and there have been plenty of other occasions where it’s very much safety first. Maybe this is what we needed to improve structurally but it’s certainly not football I get any joy from watching, for years Arsenal have always been about creativity but that seems to be a thing of the past now.

Its the midfield and more importantly Xhaka, we come up against any competent midfield we are going to struggle getting hold off the ball or have any consistent passage of play through our midfield if Xhaka is playing.

Dude must be the best practice player ever. Cause i can't understand how he's manage to fool 3 managers like this. He's not good anything, I can't comprehend how he starts every game.

How has he managed to be this shit for this long and get away with it?

[Marc Overmars]

I don’t mind Xhaka as a sitter that much but you can’t pair him with someone like Elneny who does essentially the same thing. We desperately need 1 or 2 players in there who can play in tight areas and beat the press, there’s just a complete lack of guile at the moment. I was looking at the squad list earlier and the CM options have never been this bad.

[hobson's choice]

Xhaka playing means that we are saying just forget about midfield and hope our Wing backs can create and keep possession.

I truly don't understand players like Xhaka, and the need for them in this game. They offer nothing, other then just a body.

[Globalgunner]

Also.AMN with another of those Meh performances. That kid is going g to sneak.another 10 year career on us doi g essentially nothing but flattering to deceive

[I am invisible]

He may be having to un-train them before he can get down to training them. A lot of bad habits and bad attitudes picked up over the years. This could be our wax-on, wax-off period, maybe? Then paint a few fences, clean a car and suddenly we'll spring into action and beat the shit out of everyone. Maybe.

It might not be that though. Because we aren't even all that with wax.

:good:

There was a good interview with Joe Montemurro (manager of the women's team) earlier this year where he made the point that, before any coach can get players to buy into new ideas, you first have to give them an insurance policy: a safety net of sorts that they can comfortably fall back on if they start losing control of a game.

If you ask me it looks like something like this has been going on since the start - the team was structurally weak and it was mentally weak when Arteta picked it up, and priority #1 has been to (re)learn how to set ourselves up so we don't get pounded on with every break. Through that we restore the confidence we need to start working on more complex attacking plays, but first we need to work on not falling to pieces any time we lose possession, or someone ups the tempo.

Whatever 'Artetaball' looks like, I'm not sure we've actually seen it in any serious way yet - he's got us looking more solid against most opponents, and he's given us a few plays that we can keep rolling out to score goals, but I don't think the real attacking work will start until he's added a middle to his team.

[Marc Overmars]

I hope there is more to come and evolve that’s for sure. Right now I can’t help but think this is who Mikel is as a coach, I mean he was very much a safety first player too, not that it automatically means that’s who he’ll be as a coach but I can’t say I’ve watched many games under him and felt like we saw a well balanced performance.

Happy to give the benefit of the doubt until he can get some new midfield options in at least though.

[selassie]

I hope there is more to come and evolve that’s for sure. Right now I can’t help but think this is who Mikel is as a coach, I mean he was very much a safety first player too, not that it automatically means that’s who he’ll be as a coach but I can’t say I’ve watched many games under him and felt like we saw a well balanced performance.

Happy to give the benefit of the doubt until he can get some new midfield options in at least though.

I think Mikel is just working with what he has and trying to put some sort of system in place, safety first approach. We basically have a bunch of midfielders who are slow and unable to beat the press, these midfielders were getting dominated by pretty much every other teams midfield last season. IF Aouar and Partey come in then I think we will see a big difference in our approach, I mean look at the gap in quality between those and the likes of Xhaka and Elneny, our Midfield is an absolute mess, how we even got to this state i do not know.

[Niall_Quinn]

Whereas Wenger was off somewhere in la-la land, and Emery still thought he was managing a big club with big players and a big club mentality, seems like Arteta gets the reality and isn't trying for too much beyond the bog standard basics for now. And it might be like that for several seasons, we aren't there yet. Football's a tough game when you're up against a determined and organised opponent, even if individually they are all a bit pants. Maybe it's the necessary work that has to happen before anything else and a real team will emerge, maybe it's all these wasters can manage in return for their six figure a week payoff. Either way, so dull to watch.

[Mac76]

None of that's any excuse to simply wave the white flag to Liverpool like we did on Monday, Auba muat really regretting signing that new deal now he's seen the limit of Arteta's ambition in a game like that is simply to keep the size of the defeat down...

[GP]

None of that's any excuse to simply wave the white flag to Liverpool like we did on Monday, Auba muat really regretting signing that new deal now he's seen the limit of Arteta's ambition in a game like that is simply to keep the size of the defeat down...

I don't think that's true at all.

[Mac76]

I don't think that's true at all.

I do, that's why i wrote it...

We had such a defensive lineup that defeat was inevitable simply because there was very little threat going forward, Ceballos showed the difference one more attacking player could make but it was too late by then....

[Globalgunner]

Any coach that thinks Xhaka and El Neny is a winning combo needs to lay off the drugs

[McNamara That Ghost...]

None of that's any excuse to simply wave the white flag to Liverpool like we did on Monday, Auba muat really regretting signing that new deal now he's seen the limit of Arteta's ambition in a game like that is simply to keep the size of the defeat down...

Yeah Auba must really be kicking himself getting £300k+ this week.

[selassie]

I don't think that's true at all.

I don’t but I do, I genuinely see both sides of the argument but I’m leaning towards Mikel making do with the garbage he has, that’s why he sets us up like that in these games? I dunno...

[I am invisible]

It’s pretty much the same shape, line up and tactics that we used in the two previous games against a Liverpool: twice it worked and we got a result; this time we lost. Them’s the breaks.

There was no great difference in how the 3 games played out from what I saw - Liverpool dominated all 3 in much the same way, we looked to counter and attack down the flanks, and this time it went their way. Tbh they could have easily won all 3 games, but then equally we might also have snatched another unlikely draw, or maybe even a cheeky win, In this one, if Lacazette had buried those two chances in the second half.

Personally speaking, I think the fact that we’re all this disappointed that we didn’t get something from an away game against one of the two best teams in Europe is Itself a sign (or symptom) of progress. Don’t forget this is still 95% Wenger and Emery’s unbalanced squad with all of the same weaknesses, flaws and limited players - this time last year my ambitions wouldn’t have extended any further than trying to keep the score down to 5! I certainly wouldn’t have ever thought there was a chance we could nick a tactical win.

[Letters]

I do, that's why i wrote it...

We had such a defensive lineup that defeat was inevitable simply because there was very little threat going forward
And yet, had Laca not shat himself we'd have equalised and maybe got something.
Liverpool are a level above us - they're a level above everyone. You go there and attack them and you're going to get walloped.
Arteta was pragmatic and rightly so, on another night it might have worked.

[Mac76]

And yet, had Laca not shat himself we'd have equalised and maybe got something.
Liverpool are a level above us - they're a level above everyone. You go there and attack them and you're going to get walloped.
Arteta was pragmatic and rightly so, on another night it might have worked.

but as i've said i don't think Liverpool played that well - we need to be less supine - sure iu'm not talking abotu leaving ourselves wide open to counter attacks but such a defensive lineup was alays going to make it hard - it's all very well talking about the Laca chance, but LIverpool messed up a few chances but they created so many in general that victory was inevitable - we hardly created any

you said you missed the first half, if you'd seen it i don't think you;d be saying what you're saying tbh - we were truly awful

[Niall_Quinn]

And yet, had Laca not shat himself we'd have equalised and maybe got something.
Liverpool are a level above us - they're a level above everyone. You go there and attack them and you're going to get walloped.
Arteta was pragmatic and rightly so, on another night it might have worked.

Rubbish. If you have a 100 mile journey to make by car, and put 50 miles worth of petrol in the tank, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you go because you aren't getting there. That was a fearful performance. It lacked the slightest ambition. If Laca had scored another hoof and fluke Liverpool would have exited training mode, scored, then gone back to training mode. They were so totally in control of the game it was an embarrassment to Arsenal Football Club and everyone involved with it.

I haven't seen an Arsenal team this uninventive or uninspiring since the darkest days of the 80s.

[Letters]

you said you missed the first half, if you'd seen it i don't think you;d be saying what you're saying tbh - we were truly awful
That's fair comment, only saw the second and was happy enough with our performance in that half.
Klopp was pretty happy with Liverpool's performance.
I don't think we should draw too many conclusions from losing at Anfield, no-one will get much there this year.
The manner of it you can debate I guess but in the part I saw we restricted them to a few change, had a couple on the break ourselves. We're just not at their level so I'm fine with a bit of pragmatism.
Arteta is at least going into games with a plan which is progress.

[Mac76]

That's fair comment, only saw the second and was happy enough with our performance in that half.
Klopp was pretty happy with Liverpool's performance.
I don't think we should draw too many conclusions from losing at Anfield, no-one will get much there this year.
The manner of it you can debate I guess but in the part I saw we restricted them to a few change, had a couple on the break ourselves. We're just not at their level so I'm fine with a bit of pragmatism.
Arteta is at least going into games with a plan which is progress.

it's not whether we lost, it's how we lost and the inevitability of it

i'm tired of all this lazy "well, it was Liverpool at Anfield" - so what? we're The Arsenal and we should go there to do more than just incessantly pass the ball sideways until we fuck up and concede another goal

[Marc Overmars]

This is just how we play now, even against weaker opposition. It’s pretty shit and unimaginative football but I’ll hold on to the hope that Arteta has stripped everything back to the basics so that he can build something worth paying to see as time goes on.

Hopefully the younger players are brave enough to have a go there tonight.

[Letters]

Rubbish. If you have a 100 mile journey to make by car, and put 50 miles worth of petrol in the tank, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you go because you aren't getting there. That was a fearful performance. It lacked the slightest ambition. If Laca had scored another hoof and fluke Liverpool would have exited training mode, scored, then gone back to training mode. They were so totally in control of the game it was an embarrassment to Arsenal Football Club and everyone involved with it.

I haven't seen an Arsenal team this uninventive or uninspiring since the darkest days of the 80s.

So you weren't happy when we went into these games with no plan and got thumped.
Now you're not happy when we do go into these games with a more pragmatic approach. Sure, we still lost but we made a game of it. Entirely possible that had Laca equalised Liverpool would have gone up a gear but...well, they're better than us.

What do you want? I mean, we all want us to go into these games feeling we can take the game to them and have a good chance of winning, but we're not at that level yet.

[Mac76]

So you weren't happy when we went into these games with no plan and got thumped.
Now you're not happy when we do go into these games with a more pragmatic approach. Sure, we still lost but we made a game of it. Entirely possible that had Laca equalised Liverpool would have gone up a gear but...well, they're better than us.

What do you want? I mean, we all want us to go into these games feeling we can take the game to them and have a good chance of winning, but we're not at that level yet.

aren't we? - we beat them in the Community shield, we beat Man City and Chelsea in the FA cup

he's gone backwards since then

[Letters]

i'm tired of all this lazy "well, it was Liverpool at Anfield" - so what? we're The Arsenal
So what? :lol:
There's nothing magic about being "the Arsenal". Yes, we're a big club but we've been pretty awful at plenty of times in our history. The best Wenger years were the blip, we have no divine right to be up there challenging for the title.
I think we need to be realistic about where we are right now - and where Liverpool are, The Invincibles probably wouldn't have won the league last year.
At least there was a plan. It didn't come off, it won't always, but I was far happier with that performance than the complete shit show against West Ham.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think that's the key. He has to work with the youngsters while systematically getting rid of the seniors who have had long enough now to prove they are worth it. In a hit or miss manner, that's what he seems to be doing. I guess he still has to rely on the experience of some of the dross so it's not a total experiment from week to week, but I'd like to see some of the younger players get a more consistent run, rather than jumping on and off the bench all the time. Why Saka isn't the first name on the team sheet every week is a bit of a mystery. Why can't supposedly fitter than ever players not play weekly any more, especially given the pace we play at. Hardly tiring, it's a miracle if anyone stays awake.

We're not winning anything of note in the next few years, so there's time to rebuild with players who haven't absorbed every bad habit in the book.

[Letters]

aren't we? - we beat them in the Community shield, we beat Man City and Chelsea in the FA cup

he's gone backwards since then

We beat City playing much the same way as we did against Liverpool. Sometimes there are fine lines in games and they can go the other way.
We contained City well, we contained Liverpool well - they only got the killer goal late on.
We haven't gone backwards, it's just there are fine lines in football. We're too early in the season to really know where we are - so far we've won the games we "should" win and lost one I expected us to lose.
We have touch run of games coming up so let's see where we are after that.

[Niall_Quinn]

So what? :lol:
There's nothing magic about being "the Arsenal". Yes, we're a big club but we've been pretty awful at plenty of times in our history. The best Wenger years were the blip, we have no divine right to be up there challenging for the title.
I think we need to be realistic about where we are right now - and where Liverpool are, The Invincibles probably wouldn't have won the league last year.
At least there was a plan. It didn't come off, it won't always, but I was far happier with that performance than the complete shit show against West Ham.

You say we are a big club and then say we need to be realistic?

We WERE a big club and we have the history of a big club behind us. But we have shit players, bar a couple, and we don't spend anywhere near the money required to compete up at the top of the game. So how are we a big club?

What was the plan? For Laca to fluke a goal? For us to get 2 touches of the ball in the Liverpool penalty are in 45 minutes of football? To cower behind the halfway line and beg Liverpool not to hurt us? That's not a big club. It's about as small time as you can get.

I realise we're bumping along the bottom of longstanding decline - thanks Kroenke, thanks Wenger - but there's no cause for celebration because the decline has been halted. We're still at the bottom. There needs to be some indication we are heading back up. Slowly is fine. Gradually is fine. But always up. There have been too many false dawns at this club over the past decade. The jury is still out as to whether this is another one because setbacks like the performance at Liverpool - when the results counted, as opposed to the previous two triumphs, is a clear indication we are still capable of going backwards.

Nobody is asking for the team to go out and thump Liverpool at Anfield. That's a long distant dream, and nothing more than a dream at this stage. But that's not an excuse for a lack of ambition. We should still be trying to do the things a competitive football team does, even though we are outmatched. It's not as if we are non-league opponents, turning up for the day out. We're still a PL club. Didn't Watford (IIRC) find a way to beat Liverpool when it mattered? They could maybe do that 1 in 100 attempts, but in order to do it at all there's no way they took to that pitch hoping to keep the score down.

No way you can call yourself a big club if that's the mentality.

[Globalgunner]

It's the mentality that kills me with this team and this club. That's why I was so unenthusiastic about Arteta. He was exactly that kind of player too. How can you win any game with sidewinders like Xhaka and El neny in your midfield. They both offer neither protection nor offence. I dont want to hear any crap about moving in the right direction if at the end of the season we are behind Leicester and Wolves and maybe Everton with no better results against the top.4. Wolves would never go to Anfield and put in such a supine performance.

[Letters]

You say we are a big club and then say we need to be realistic?
We need to be realistic about where we are, but we are a big club and need to be ambitious about where we can get to.

And yeah, the plan was to contain them and try and get a goal on the break. Wasn't a million miles off working, Laca was one on one with the 'keeper - it wouldn't have been a fluke had he scored, he's a striker, that's his job.
I'm not defending the first half performance, I didn't see it and by all accounts it was awful. Second half though, we did OK. We contained them well, we nearly caught them on the break. Fine, they got the killer goal near the end but we weren't hammered.

As you say, small steps. Few indications we're heading in the right direction but...you know when I'll judge Arteta ;)

[Niall_Quinn]

I was okay with Arteta when he was suggested first time around. We'd already missed out on Klopp - again, a lack of ambition, we had no serious chance of getting a chequebook manager, and the younger managers being mentioned didn't bring any more in the way of guarantees than a complete rookie, considering the problems already baked into this club which they would never have faced or even imagined existed. So I saw Arteta as fine, because the absolute priority was to get rid of Wenger. I figured Arteta would be booted if he was a complete mess, or else he'd maybe surprise us and at least bring a semblance of competitive football back to the club. Which he's sort of doing, albeit a bit random.

The way the pundits are going on about him now is just crazy though. As if he's transformed the team. I don't see it at all. He's made us more secure across the pitch, but that's the very minimum I would expect given Wenger and then Emery's suicidal attitude towards defence. But I can't see any indication we're doing more than that right now, just being a bit more secure. A bit more organised. More resilient. It's good, we needed it, it's something to build on. But games like the last one show what a mountain still needs to be climbed. If he's the guy who will help us climb it I don't know. A cup win, it's something. But cups and the challenge of the league are incomparable. So far, in terms of the big competition, it looks like he can stabilise us as a mid-table team. Maybe scrape a 4th in a Leicester style manner, every now and then? But that just represents an also-ran day out in the CL. And more money I guess. Even then - they buy Pepe.

It'll be a while before there's anything significant to get excited about, I'd guess. Took Utd and Liverpool decades to get back.

[Letters]

Don't disagree with any of that. Personally I'm more concerned about the West Ham performance than the Liverpool one.
I can live with us being cautious against one of the best sides in Europe, but 2nd half performance was pretty decent, I reckon.
I only saw the second half against West Ham and it was really awful, we were lucky to win that one. That was concerning. I guess Christmas will be a reasonable point to take stock.

[Mac76]

I'd like to see some of the younger players get a more consistent run, rather than jumping on and off the bench all the time. Why Saka isn't the first name on the team sheet every week is a bit of a mystery.

We're not winning anything of note in the next few years, so there's time to rebuild with players who haven't absorbed every bad habit in the book.

agreed, what the club did with Saka was a big con, playing him every week until he signed a new contract then barely playing him again - he'd have every right to feel very pissed off right now

i don't get why we don't play younger players consistently - they're not going to fall apart at the seams if they play more games ffs, why not use them when they're untainted by cynicism and full of positivity?