Are we getting carried away with the doom and gloom?

[IBK]

Ok - came on here for some catharsis after yesterday, but (even though I am used to the mood here) I was surprised by the extent to which Arteta is being written off - even Letters thinks he may need to go :yikes:

Don't get me wrong - things are looking pretty shite. IMO the team looks over- managed and over cautious, and the players look like they are neutered in the system - particularly going forwards. But...

Most agreed that Arteta's first (part) season was a success - and up to July his record compared favourably with Klopp's first 18 games https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/comparing-artetas-first-18-pl-games-at-arsenal-to-klopps-first-18-at-liverpool/.

EPL results: W4 L4 D1 - narrow losses to City and Leicester and 1-3 loss to Liverpool
Europa results: P3 won 3
EFL Cup: P2 won 2

and while yesterday was bit of a horror show, the spirit of the team to save the point after going down to 10 against a rampant Leeds surely gives some indication that the manager has not lost the dressing room?

I'm not happy with how we are playing, and while clearly the manager has sorted the defensive structure, we are playing like underdogs too often. But we were up in arms when we were humiliated defensively in every other game, and is defence not the right place to start? Are we really saying that we have already seen evidence that Arteta is not going to cut it, and should Klopp have been sacked after finishing 8th in his first 'full' season with Liverpool (I know he joined in October but that was way longer than Arteta had last seasnon and our team had way more problems), which based purely on results to date we might achieve this season.

Is it not a bit OTT to be calling for the manager's head already?

[Marc Overmars]

He hasn’t lost the dressing room, quite the opposite actually. They’re following his instructions right down to the last letter and they kick and scrap for everything now. Which is why him going is a non-starter.

Yes it is OTT to suggest he should be gone this second, it’s still early days and a lot can change. However I believe I’ve seen enough to know what kind of a coach he is and what sort of system he favours. I have no issue with being a defensive team but not if it means sabotaging the attack. We have a striker who is capable of scoring 30 goals but has been a statue so far. If he’s going to turn us into a slick attacking unit as well then great but I haven’t seen any evidence of seeds being planted for that. Even the games we do win are often narrow affairs that could go either way, there just isn’t anything convincing about what I’ve seen from Arteta’s Arsenal.

I appreciate that he’s given us more of a shape and made us more robust however in reality, our fortunes haven’t changed at all.

[Letters]

I've been trying really hard not to leap on the "Arteta Out" bandwagon.
I mean, he did win us the FA Cup and there's definitely a lot more organisation in the team and we're more solid at the back.
But it's come at the expense of any creativity up front. We've scored 1 goal in the last 5 games and that was a penalty. With the players we have up front it's pretty pathetic. It's not helped by Spurs looking so good :(
My head says he needs more time. At least one full season. You can find plenty of examples of managers who didn't have instant success but came good.
The worrying thing is Arteta has no pedigree.
But...I do like him and he talks a good game, so...

Overall I think "Arteta Out" is a bit premature, but we are looking worryingly mid-table right now.

[Niall_Quinn]

For me the gloom comes from the club's habit of persistently accepting a lower standard and then labelling that success or progress. If you move out of a palace and live in a sewer and then move upmarket to a cardboard box under a bridge, that is progress. It still looks silly for a "big" club to be living under a bridge though. Even sillier when the club boasts about it.

[IBK]

He hasn’t lost the dressing room, quite the opposite actually. They’re following his instructions right down to the last letter and they kick and scrap for everything now. Which is why him going is a non-starter.

Yes it is OTT to suggest he should be gone this second, it’s still early days and a lot can change. However I believe I’ve seen enough to know what kind of a coach he is and what sort of system he favours. I have no issue with being a defensive team but not if it means sabotaging the attack. We have a striker who is capable of scoring 30 goals but has been a statue so far. If he’s going to turn us into a slick attacking unit as well then great but I haven’t seen any evidence of seeds being planted for that. Even the games we do win are often narrow affairs that could go either way, there just isn’t anything convincing about what I’ve seen from Arteta’s Arsenal.

All fair points. I suppose it comes down to whether the current unhappy situation is a base from which we can build, as the manager works out how the systenm is bluntin our attack, or a more permanent state of affairs. It is a worry that against Leeds he did what we all wanted and played Auba in the middle but we still looked toothless. My take is that Willian did not help and Pepe's head was clearly not on, and things looked better in this regard when Saka came on. But I guess I don't think the experiment has failed altogether. Yet.

[IBK]

I've been trying really hard not to leap on the "Arteta Out" bandwagon.
I mean, he did win us the FA Cup and there's definitely a lot more organisation in the team and we're more solid at the back.
But it's come at the expense of any creativity up front. We've scored 1 goal in the last 5 games and that was a penalty. With the players we have up front it's pretty pathetic. It's not helped by Spurs looking so good :(
My head says he needs more time. At least one full season. You can find plenty of examples of managers who didn't have instant success but came good.
The worrying thing is Arteta has no pedigree.
But...I do like him and he talks a good game, so...

Overall I think "Arteta Out" is a bit premature, but we are looking worryingly mid-table right now.

That's more like the Letters I know. But I reckon we could be expected to be mid table-ish this season simply as a result of where we started. The Mourinho thing is horrible, but I think we do need to remember that he is a vastly experienced and (mostly) successful manager, and Arteta is a rookie. Is it not a bit naive not to expect some teething problems with him?

[IBK]

For me the gloom comes from the club's habit of persistently accepting a lower standard and then labelling that success or progress. If you move out of a palace and live in a sewer and then move upmarket to a cardboard box under a bridge, that is progress. It still looks silly for a "big" club to be living under a bridge though. Even sillier when the club boasts about it.

I kind of get whet you are saying, but let's face it, the owners have spent money. I'm not sure that its 100% fair to label the ownership as not prepared to invest. Most people saw the case for bringing in a young manager and giving him some time to build sustained success, non?

[Letters]

Is it not a bit naive not to expect some teething problems with him?
Well, sure.
But it's also reasonable to think that a club of Arsenal's stature shouldn't be where a rookie manager cuts their teeth.

[Marc Overmars]

All fair points. I suppose it comes down to whether the current unhappy situation is a base from which we can build, as the manager works out how the systenm is bluntin our attack, or a more permanent state of affairs. It is a worry that against Leeds he did what we all wanted and played Auba in the middle but we still looked toothless. My take is that Willian did not help and Pepe's head was clearly not on, and things looked better in this regard when Saka came on. But I guess I don't think the experiment has failed altogether. Yet.

Nah it hasn’t failed, yet. One could argue it has been successful given the cup win.

Maybe we need better players but my gut feeling is I don’t see us moving away from this type of football any time soon. I’d feel the same frustration if we were scoring loads but conceding them as well. Improvement has to be all encompassing and I look at the football some of these sides with less resources than us play and I’m scratching my head as to why we shouldn’t expect to play in the same vibrant way?

I can’t be positive or patient when the end result is still the same, only we’ve gone about getting there in a different way now.

Hell, right now I wouldn’t really mind drawing our next game 3-3 or something if it meant showing we’re still capable of doing some damage up front. Whatever we do at the back without goals from Auba and the supporting cast we will be firmly rooted in mid table for the season, that is for sure. So getting them going again should be the priority, rather than overly regimenting the defence and neutering the team in the process.

[Mac76]

i just saw a really good tweet:

@TheFalseNein., 2h

I back Arteta, but he really buried himself by saying Özil wasn't playing for football reasons when the football is shite.

For me, Arteta's been so concerned with being the big man and having everyone prostrate themselves at his feet, he's ended up giving too much time to yes-men like Xhaka and not giving someone who is still a very talented player any kind of chance simply because he won't run around enough traffic cones.

if you're going to try to be the big boss you need the results to back it up, otherewise you're just an airbag

[Niall_Quinn]

I kind of get whet you are saying, but let's face it, the owners have spent money. I'm not sure that its 100% fair to label the ownership as not prepared to invest. Most people saw the case for bringing in a young manager and giving him some time to build sustained success, non?

The fans and the sponsors have provided money that has been misspent, that much I'd agree with. I'm not even suggesting we waste more money, not at this stage. It's the attitude that has to change. People are saying it's great that Arteta has pulled the team together into a more cohesive unit. True, he has. But what the hell? Isn't that what a team is supposed to be all about anyway? We're giving him a thumbs up for doing the absolute bare minimum, just because we had managers before that couldn't even achieve that much? I'm not criticising Arteta for doing his job, and I haven't been calling for his head. But I'm not getting excited about square one either.

I don't think it would make a blind bit of difference who we brought in while the attitude at every level of this club is so rancid. I think we might need a priest rather than a manager to solve the problems. Cast out all thoughts about scraping into a CL competition we don't stand a chance of competing in as some form of success. That's what got us into this decline in the first place, Wenger's Top 4 Trophy as we slid into this inevitable mid-table status, which people were warning about (myself included) for years, and being laughed out of the room for saying it.

With the current attitude remaining in place (second best is 1% from glory, don't lose rather than strive to win), a rookie manager that seems to appreciate the basics but shows no sign of taking it beyond that, so far, and owners that treat the whole affair as an exercise in balancing the books - we're getting the expected outcome. How could it be any different? If the manager is not going to change (because there's no point) and the owners aren't going to change then the attitude has to change. It has to become realistic rather than purely optimistic. It has to be about what must happen and how it will happen rather than what we hope could happen.

If I could hear Arteta essentially saying, fuck, we play shit, boring, pointless, soulless garbage and that needs to change pronto because that's not going to get us anywhere, then I might have some enthusiasm. Instead I'm hearing about the great spirit again, and I've heard all that shit before. And I'm hearing about the CL being the goal, not the title. It's unrealistic for us to win a title in short order, that's fair, but what's the PLAN for doing that, step by step? And is that plan being executed? I don't see it. The only realism I can see here is a "big" club settling down to be also-rans for the long term, maybe scraping a seat at the CL draw on a random basis. And people calling that progress.

[Mac76]

I kind of get whet you are saying, but let's face it, the owners have spent money. I'm not sure that its 100% fair to label the ownership as not prepared to invest. Most people saw the case for bringing in a young manager and giving him some time to build sustained success, non?

i think 99% of criticism of the Kroenkes is rubbish, they have financially backed the club

their biggest mistake is trusting people they thought were experts to get it right - instead Raul was a total crook just filling his agent mates' pockets

Josh in particular is apparently taking more of an interest and I think was the force behind gettign Raul out of the club, then they put that guy Lewis in to steady the ship

admittedly we still bought Willian which was a really bad move but that's still the club management getting things wrong, not the owners.

it doesn't matter how much money you put in, if the management waste it all on duds like Pepe and Willian and probably Arteta himself, then what's the point?

[Niall_Quinn]

The sell Pepe wagon is gathering speed. Personally I was on the don't buy him in the first place, especially for 70 million quid, wagon. But that horse bolted, leaving the wagon stranded. If we sell Pepe, what difference will it make? Are we buying Messi to replace him? It will take a player of that calibre to single-handedly raise the attacking profile of the team. We could go after Dwayne Dibley again, I suppose. Or some other past target like we usually do. But what difference would it make? Might as well keep Pepe and hope Arteta twigs that the shitball we are playing isn't going to bring out the best in any player, including Auba as it turns out.

[Bumble]

What is the objective of arteta. If he is to blood academy players as a main goal then thats fair enough and think the fans can buy into it if the club are open and honest about. With guys like saka nelson amn willock nkieteh etc then mid table for a season isnt so bid. The football is dull, i wouldnt say we are cohesive but organised. Arteta was brought to organise the team. That has happened. But beyond that we are relying on a bit of magic for a goal and we dont have those players.

If the aim is blooding youngsters then stick with arteta as any more experienced manager wouldnt want to do that.

[Mac76]

Apparently he only subbed Willian at HT because he had a muscular problem, it wasn't even tactical...

[IBK]

Well, sure.
But it's also reasonable to think that a club of Arsenal's stature shouldn't be where a rookie manager cuts their teeth.

Perhaps - but that was the decision made, and what's more (1) he has had to cope with upheaval on many fronts that would have been difficult for even an experienced manager to cope with; (2) he was clearly bought with a long term vision in hand; (3) whatever we think about the current malaise of the team, a u-turn before he has had sufficient time for his project to bear fruit would only be disruptive. My view is that Arsenal will never get to where it wants to be by being short termist and we do need to see through the decision made...

[IBK]

The fans and the sponsors have provided money that has been misspent, that much I'd agree with. I'm not even suggesting we waste more money, not at this stage. It's the attitude that has to change. People are saying it's great that Arteta has pulled the team together into a more cohesive unit. True, he has. But what the hell? Isn't that what a team is supposed to be all about anyway? We're giving him a thumbs up for doing the absolute bare minimum, just because we had managers before that couldn't even achieve that much? I'm not criticising Arteta for doing his job, and I haven't been calling for his head. But I'm not getting excited about square one either.

I don't think it would make a blind bit of difference who we brought in while the attitude at every level of this club is so rancid. I think we might need a priest rather than a manager to solve the problems. Cast out all thoughts about scraping into a CL competition we don't stand a chance of competing in as some form of success. That's what got us into this decline in the first place, Wenger's Top 4 Trophy as we slid into this inevitable mid-table status, which people were warning about (myself included) for years, and being laughed out of the room for saying it.

With the current attitude remaining in place (second best is 1% from glory, don't lose rather than strive to win), a rookie manager that seems to appreciate the basics but shows no sign of taking it beyond that, so far, and owners that treat the whole affair as an exercise in balancing the books - we're getting the expected outcome. How could it be any different? If the manager is not going to change (because there's no point) and the owners aren't going to change then the attitude has to change. It has to become realistic rather than purely optimistic. It has to be about what must happen and how it will happen rather than what we hope could happen.

If I could hear Arteta essentially saying, fuck, we play shit, boring, pointless, soulless garbage and that needs to change pronto because that's not going to get us anywhere, then I might have some enthusiasm. Instead I'm hearing about the great spirit again, and I've heard all that shit before. And I'm hearing about the CL being the goal, not the title. It's unrealistic for us to win a title in short order, that's fair, but what's the PLAN for doing that, step by step? And is that plan being executed? I don't see it. The only realism I can see here is a "big" club settling down to be also-rans for the long term, maybe scraping a seat at the CL draw on a random basis. And people calling that progress.

Lots to unpick there mate.

TBF I am not sure that the owners can really be criticised for being small time in their aspirations. There was a period where they seemed disinterested and unwilling to put their hands in their pockets but I don't think we can say that now. We have spent pretty big (by reasonable, not Oligargh/Emirate state standards). The choice of management personnel has ranged from questionable to disastrous, and the churn has been astonishing since Wenger, but making mistakes at executive level is not the same as lack of ambition. I may be in a minority here, but I still feel that trying to go toe to toe with Chelsea; Manure and Citeh in spending terms would be unwise, and we have seen with our own record signings that this does not necessarily equate to success.

So where does the 'small time' attitude come from? Well I would take the view that part of this has to be realism. We won't simply spend our way to the top. There is another way of looking at our project, and that is that it is supposed to be a long term strategy for sustained success. I agree that currently the pathway to this seems unconvincing, but I maintain that we need to see how it plays out, rather than tearing it up now.

I'm not sure that Arteta is a manager who is happy to accept mediocrity. The fact that we look mediocre at present is not the same thing. Neither is having realistic short term aspirations of getting back into the top 6, following the shit show of the past few years. Is Arteta the man for the job? I don't know, but to a degree he has shown that he will not put up with players being less than committed to the cause. I am concerned about his apparent favouritism for under-performing players but I am not sure that I would put this down to lack of ambition.

As you say, there are few current signs so far of the manager being able to take it beyond the basics, but the basics were what we needed when we came in, and IMO we have not given Arteta long enough to see whether his team can evolve. If he does not have what it takes, I would not put this down to complacency.

For me there have been sufficient signs of most of our players being committed to the cause, which was not the case under Emery. I don't think you can look at Gabriel; Tierney; Bellerin; Saka; Partey; Holding and see players who are content with being second best. Auba is going through a poor patch but noone doubted his ambition last season. Same goes for Ceballos. The rest of the players - well they may well not be good enough but I am not sure that their performances indicate an attitude problem.

For me the main problem is that we have done poor transfer business and this is partly down to the churn at director of football level, and partly due simply to stupid decisions - Willian being the most stupid of all.

I think that we need to try to tease out what the issue is here, and I donlt think it is one of aspiration.

[Özim]

The guy had zero experience when we appointed him, it was a weird choice for a top club, we should at least have picked someone who had cut their teeth before joining us. For me he's proving to be hype, yes he's improved the defence but 100% at the expense of the attack which is non existent, we barely create any chances and have a very good forward line who are having less shots than Harry Maguire.

We've gone from a manager in Wenger who didn't know how to defend now to a manager who doesn't know how to attack.

On top of that there's the double standards, Ozil, Guendouzi, Martinelli and Saliba just get cut out of the team/squad but the likes of Xhaka, Mustafi, Willian can get away with whatever they want with no repercussions, it's a joke.

Last season we were largely awful, at least the performances were, Ok we finished the season well enough with this 11 men behind the ball thing and we had the rub of the green somewhat, one tactic against everyone and now we've been found out.

This guy is in way over his head and IMO doesn't have a clue what he's doing, now not only are the performances dreadful, so are the results.

But then when you employ someone with zero experience maybe it's not a great surprise when they flop spectacularly when they've never demonstrated they are capable of managing in the 1st place which should be the one of the primary requirements when employing a manager for us.

Let's face it though, this club just employed the guy they wanted all along, they wanted him before we took Emery on but it didn't happen for one reason or another, then they dubiously claimed to have done an extensive search for the right candidate only to employ a guy they'd interviewed 18 months before. Arteta didn't really earn the chance of the job as he'd never done anything to make him qualified for it.

[Mac76]

The guy had zero experience when we appointed him, it was a weird choice for a top club, we should at least have picked someone who had cut their teeth before joining us. For me he's proving to be hype, yes he's improved the defence but 100% at the expense of the attack which is non existent, we barely create any chances and have a very good forward line who are having less shots than Harry Maguire.

We've gone from a manager in Wenger who didn't know how to defend now to a manager who doesn't know how to attack.

On top of that there's the double standards, Ozil, Guendouzi, Martinelli and Saliba just get cut out of the team/squad but the likes of Xhaka, Mustafi, Willian can get away with whatever they want with no repercussions, it's a joke.

Last season we were largely awful, at least the performances were, Ok we finished the season well enough with this 11 men behind the ball thing and we had the rub of the green somewhat, one tactic against everyone and now we've been found out.

This guy is in way over his head and IMO doesn't have a clue what he's doing, now not only are the performances dreadful, so are the results.

But then when you employ someone with zero experience maybe it's not a great surprise when they flop spectacularly when they've never demonstrated they are capable of managing in the 1st place which should be the one of the primary requirements when employing a manager for us.

:gp:

[selassie]

I think the biggest problem with Arsenal as it stands right now is that we do make changes, but the changes by in large are either easy choices or not doing quite enough.

To come out of two extensive searches for managers with Emery & Arteta to show for leaves a lot to be desired. We are a big club apparently and should be aiming for the very best irrespective of what it costs.

Arteta is learning on the job, that much is a fact. We just have to ride it out with him. I have seen good and bad things from Arteta, that is understandable given that he is learning on the job.

Do I think he needs to go? Not if we don't have a top class replacement lined up, do I think he should go regardless? Not really...I don't think we are that bad but we certainly need to improve and fast.

Do I think we are capable of top 4 this season? No...we are not good enough. The squad is in a mess and quite frankly we need to rebuild but we need to get it right. We already seem to be making a pigs ear out of developing some of the great young talent we have in the squad...why is Saliba being frozen out? Why is Pepe not given a sustained run in the team? What the hell has happened to Ceballos?

[selassie]

Caught bits and pieces of todays game and same as it ever was.

We have major problems now IMO, 3 home defeats on the trot against sides around our level. Sad stuff....

Nothing more to say really...apart from this season is worse than last season.

[Mac76]

To answer the question in the thread title: no, we're not...

.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Caught bits and pieces of todays game and same as it ever was.

We have major problems now IMO, 3 home defeats on the trot against sides around our level. Sad stuff....

Nothing more to say really...apart from this season is worse than last season.

Cheer up.

It’s not as bad as next season.

[Marc Overmars]

Caught bits and pieces of todays game and same as it ever was.

We have major problems now IMO, 3 home defeats on the trot against sides around our level. Sad stuff....

Nothing more to say really...apart from this season is worse than last season.

3 sides around our level and we're talking about Leicester, Aston Villa and Wolves. :lol:

Sign of the times.

[Bumble]

3 sides around our level and we're talking about Leicester, Aston Villa and Wolves. :lol:

Sign of the times.

Think leicester and wolves might be insulted by that.

[Mac76]

Cheer up.

It’s not as bad as next season.

:lol:


:(

[Marc Overmars]

Had a browse on Twitter to gauge the general consensus and it seems like Arteta does still have support. Most people are asking for patience which I can appreciate, however I’d say exchange for that patience there has to be some sign of progress but we’re quite clearly moving backwards with no plan to stop the slide.

People also like to point at Klopps early months at Liverpool but he was a seasoned coach with titles to his name and had a pretty defined way of playing. I have no idea what Arteta has done other than organise us a little better, which is surely the absolute bare minimum for any coach? Even then I’d question how organised we actually are given the latest evidence.

I don’t really believe Arteta knows the strengths and weaknesses of his players and that has contributed to producing the most disjointed Arsenal team I’ve ever seen. No chemistry, guile or any kind of skill out there. The players look like strangers to one another.

Only hope I have left is that Partey turns out to be a worldie that transforms us, other than that I don’t see anything in this team that makes me believe we can even finish in the top half let alone top 6.

[dazthegooner]

The bookies have us as one of the favourite's for promotion next year so maybe not that bad :unsure:

[Mac76]

Had a browse on Twitter to gauge the general consensus and it seems like Arteta does still have support. Most people are asking for patience which I can appreciate, however I’d say exchange for that patience there has to be some sign of progress but we’re quite clearly moving backwards with no plan to stop the slide.

People also like to point at Klopps early months at Liverpool but he was a seasoned coach with titles to his name and had a pretty defined way of playing. I have no idea what Arteta has done other than organise us a little better, which is surely the absolute bare minimum for any coach? Even then I’d question how organised we actually are given the latest evidence.

I don’t really believe Arteta knows the strengths and weaknesses of his players and that has contributed to producing the most disjointed Arsenal team I’ve ever seen. No chemistry, guile or any kind of skill out there. The players look like strangers to one another.

Only hope I have left is that Partey turns out to be a worldie that transforms us, other than that I don’t see anything in this team that makes be believe we can even finish in the top half let alone top 6.

i agree, when you look at other PL teams (apart from Fulham and Bumley obvs) they have a plan and the team know what they are doing - they see us floundering about and know we're there for the taking

Arteta's messed about a lot with certain players (normally the better ones) and also formations but then stuck to morons like Xhaka

I hate Xhaka so much - it's obvious he sucks up to the boss in training and likes to play captain and it works with a new weak manager - you've got to hope an experienced successful manager would say "whatever, you're sh*t, go away"

Auba must feel like a prize fool right now - personally I wanted him to stay but if I was him I would definitely have gone to a CHampions League club - he's been suckered into staying

[Letters]

Part of me is still trying to cling to "he needs some time".
I mean, he talks a good game and he did win us the Cup. But right now he is managing to make a group of mostly good players look very ordinary.
The sides we face don't have better players, but they are a better team.
It'll be a miracle if Spurs don't wipe the floor with us next weekend :crying:

[Mac76]

The NLD is going to be a horror show - I think i might 'forget' to tune in... ;)

[Letters]

Absolutely no chance I'll be watching. Why put yourself through it?
I'll check the score afterwards, tut and then get on with my day.

[IBK]

So like Letters I am trying quite hard this morning to cling to the hope that Arteta needs more time. I still believe that we committed to this project so have little choice but to do so. I think also that further disruption at our club is the last thing that we need - and this alone means that we cannot change again now.

But the lack of a response in this team is worryng me now. As is the fact that every team in the league fancies itself against us, and most seem to have managers that can easily work Arteta out. As is the fact that our players are not looking like they believe in what they are being asked to do (the most worrying thing of all, for me - is this what happens when you are a rookie manager - that players lose faith incrediblyy quickly when they are not winning).

Definitely shades of Emery's decline ATM.

Against this, I cannot understand why Arteta seems suddenly so tactically bereft when he has not so long ago mixed it with the best managers on the league and come out on top. Or why we looked so inept defensively yesterday when we had looked solid at the back in the main.

The obvious issue for me is the fact that our MF is not linking with the forwards. This was supposed to be addressed in part by Partey, and it's not Arteta's fault that he is injured (worryingly for the medium term too), but it is admittedly a concern that we cannot compensate tactically for this.

My head still says that we have to ride this out, but patience is very short - particularly at AFC, and it is difficult not to feel despondent...

[Marc Overmars]

Tactically it’s been the same all year long, he hasn’t done anything different. The statistics are similar win, lose or draw. We don’t play football, we set up to shut out the opponent and then maybe spring something on the counter. This happens even against so called lesser teams. He’s been found out, that’s why we we’re not scoring goals or winning games now.

I don’t see him being sacked because I think the club have gone all in on him. However if things continue to go as they are they’ll need to make a decision. We’ve spent a lot of money and have some decent players, there’s no way we should be floating around in the bottom half of the table.

Maybe the fans being allowed back now will shake them up into finding their mojo again, however I struggle to see how they can find it again with such a huge disconnect in the team. They don’t know how to make each other tick anymore because the tactics have beaten that out of them. Wolves started to panic after 70 mins or so last night but we couldn’t even lay a glove on them. That summed up everything for me.

Everything Arteta has shown so far has been learned from a book. Coaching for dummies. He’s no visionary or pioneer that is for sure.

[Letters]

I can't remember the last time I've seen us really dominate a side.
Basically anyone feels they can have a go at us and get a result. Given the money we've spent and the resources we have it's pretty pathetic.

[Bumble]

I can't remember the last time I've seen us really dominate a side.
Basically anyone feels they can have a go at us and get a result. Given the money we've spent and the resources we have it's pretty pathetic.

Dundalk? didnt we dominate them. maybe the plan is to win the Europa league as relegation wont happen as the bottom 4 are truly dreadful and will be a while before they pick up points just to catch us up with what we have now.

[Bumble]

if we are going to lose games we might as well lose by playing exciting football. bring back the 4-4 5-4s.

[Chippy]

The bookies have us as one of the favourite's for promotion next year so maybe not that bad :unsure:

You can see the headlines in May 2021;

"Gunners slip to first ever relegation, whilst Spurs snatch their first PL Title"
:ilt: :ilt::ilt:

[Letters]

"Gunners slip to first ever relegation

People who don’t know their Arsenal history :pal:

[Niall_Quinn]

if we are going to lose games we might as well lose by playing exciting football. bring back the 4-4 5-4s.

We do okay when we play at a higher tempo. If you remember back to the days when we used to score goals from open play (youngsters will just have to take my word for it), once we start moving the ball at a higher pace it plays to the strengths of Auba, Pepe, Ceballos, Saka, and anyone who has a technical bone in their body. That's how we unlock the extra cash we have spent on these players and gain the advantage over less affluent opponents. Up the tempo. Move the ball faster.

Instead the priority is to keep it tight, keep it organised, at the expense of all else. That way we don't suffer from those blowouts against the bigger teams, but we also lose out on the flat track bully status we had going for us and allowed us to mingle in the top six. And it's boring. Even the canned audience groans at it.

Arteta is afraid to fail which in turn means he's afraid to win. His better players will get bored, and you could see that with Auba last night. He just was't interested.

Arteta is also stubborn. He's going to need Ozil if he wants to pick the pace of the play up. But I'm not sure he does, he shows no signs of changing anything.

[IBK]

We do okay when we play at a higher tempo. If you remember back to the days when we used to score goals from open play (youngsters will just have to take my word for it), once we start moving the ball at a higher pace it plays to the strengths of Auba, Pepe, Ceballos, Saka, and anyone who has a technical bone in their body. That's how we unlock the extra cash we have spent on these players and gain the advantage over less affluent opponents. Up the tempo. Move the ball faster.

Instead the priority is to keep it tight, keep it organised, at the expense of all else. That way we don't suffer from those blowouts against the bigger teams, but we also lose out on the flat track bully status we had going for us and allowed us to mingle in the top six. And it's boring. Even the canned audience groans at it.

Arteta is afraid to fail which in turn means he's afraid to win. His better players will get bored, and you could see that with Auba last night. He just was't interested.

Arteta is also stubborn. He's going to need Ozil if he wants to pick the pace of the play up. But I'm not sure he does, he shows no signs of changing anything.

That's a really good post - especially the summary of how Arteta appears to be...

[IBK]

Tactically it’s been the same all year long, he hasn’t done anything different. The statistics are similar win, lose or draw. We don’t play football, we set up to shut out the opponent and then maybe spring something on the counter. This happens even against so called lesser teams. He’s been found out, that’s why we we’re not scoring goals or winning games now.

I don’t see him being sacked because I think the club have gone all in on him. However if things continue to go as they are they’ll need to make a decision. We’ve spent a lot of money and have some decent players, there’s no way we should be floating around in the bottom half of the table.

Maybe the fans being allowed back now will shake them up into finding their mojo again, however I struggle to see how they can find it again with such a huge disconnect in the team. They don’t know how to make each other tick anymore because the tactics have beaten that out of them. Wolves started to panic after 70 mins or so last night but we couldn’t even lay a glove on them. That summed up everything for me.

Everything Arteta has shown so far has been learned from a book. Coaching for dummies. He’s no visionary or pioneer that is for sure.

Yet he learnt under a manager that is widely regarded as being the best there is. I'm beginning to wonder whether, as NQ says, Arteta's real naivety is trying too hard to lay down his own will, even as the goodwill that he built up with the players last season dissipates...

[Mac76]

People who don’t know their Arsenal history :pal:

well of course I expect he's talking about since the PL began ;) after all there wasn't any football worth talking about before then was there... :rolleyes:

[Letters]

We haven't gone back down since we were promoted in 1919 (Spurs :pal:) tbf.

[Chippy]

well of course I expect he's talking about since the PL began ;) after all there wasn't any football worth talking about before then was there... :rolleyes:

Thank you, Mac76. Yes I was :whistle:

[Mac76]

Thank you, Mac76. Yes I was :whistle:

Anytime :cool:

[WGC Goon]

One of our main issues is if Aubameyang doesn't score then we're in big trouble. It wasn't so long ago that we would point the finger at Spurs being a one man team (Kane) and here we are in the exact same position. Apart from the odd set piece goal no one consistently contributes to our goal tally. A lack of creativity has made us boringly predictable and pretty easy to set up against from the oppositions point of view. Aubameyang needs help and maybe it's time to give Ozil a chance again, though I'm not sure Arteta wouldn't see that as some sort of stand down on his behalf.

[Letters]

Spurs aren't even a one man team now. Son is quality and now they've added Bale.
They're going to tear us apart this weekend, I reckon.
:ilt:

Welcome to the board, by the way :tiphat:

[Mac76]

maybe it's time to give Ozil a chance again, though I'm not sure Arteta wouldn't see that as some sort of stand down on his behalf.

that will be fascinating if things don't pick up by January - he will surely have to consider putting Ozil in the PL squad but it will be a huge climbdown - all of his own making of course

someone - and given the hollowing-out of the club management i don't even know who it would be - will have to tell him it needs to happen

i'd absolutely love it if Ozil started appearing and playing well - Arteta would look like a prize prawn - no doubt he'd come out with some BS about how Ozil's 'attitude had changed' though ...

[Letters]

i'd absolutely love it if Ozil started appearing and playing well - Arteta would look like a prize prawn - no doubt he'd come out with some BS about how Ozil's 'attitude had changed' though ...
If that happened then I don't think anyone would lose out.
We'd presumably pick up better results. Ozil would be playing again. Arteta could say that his tough love worked. Everyone wins.

[Mac76]

Welcome to the board, by the way :tiphat:

yes :clap:

[WGC Goon]

Spurs aren't even a one man team now. Son is quality and now they've added Bale.
They're going to tear us apart this weekend, I reckon.
:ilt:

Welcome to the board, by the way :tiphat:

Why thank you :wave: I used to frequent AWIMB up to a couple of years ago and felt it was time to integrate with fellow forum Gooners once again. I suspect there are some old AWIMBers lurking on here somewhere :good:

[Bumble]

Vieira has been sacked by Nice....

[GP]

Well that's not very Nice

[dazthegooner]

From Skysports
The 44-year-old, whose contract was due to expire at the end of the season, had come in for increasing criticism over a downturn in results amid accusations the team lacked a discernible style of play.

Hmmmm sounds familiar

[Gooner23]

I know the Europa League oppo are toilet but we play with so much more dynamism.

I would like to see more of the youngsters given a go in the league. The experienced players have really let Arteta down recently and don't deserve to be rewarded.

Maitland-Niles had a great game in centre mid yesterday and surely has to offer more than Xhaka. Likewise Nelson deserves a start over Willian.

[Marc Overmars]

I think these dreadful European teams still hold a certain level of respect for Arsenal and what we used to stand for.

That has long gone for most Premier League teams who know how easy it is to get a result against us.

[Mac76]

I think these dreadful European teams still hold a certain level of respect for Arsenal and what we used to stand for.

That has long gone for most Premier League teams who know how easy it is to get a result against us.

This

[Letters]

I think these dreadful European teams still hold a certain level of respect for Arsenal and what we used to stand for.

That has long gone for most Premier League teams who know how easy it is to get a result against us.

Dunno about that.
All you have to do is watch our games to know how rancid we are. They are surely doing that before they face us.
I’d say it’s more that the teams we are playing are just not up to PL standard.

[Marc Overmars]

Sure but for most of these teams the group stage is as good as it gets. They rarely get to play clubs of any standing in the game, so to face a club like us is probably the highlight of their season.

[selassie]

OUR CURRENT TEAM

1. Can't Pass

2. Can't Tackle

3. Can't Create

4. Can't Shoot

5. Can't Take Set-Pieces Properly

6. Lose every week.

Make that of what you will?

P.S. Since October, Arsenal have more foul throws (5) than goals (4). How is that even possible? Arteta is doing what exactly on the training ground?!?!

[Marc Overmars]

We all accepted there would be ups and downs and Arteta needed time, however its safe to say no one expected things to go this bad. The team is dreadful and has no redeeming features, Artetaball is sunday league football and if we persist with it there's a good chance we'll be finishing in the bottom half.

The signs were there last season, the play hasn't changed, it is still the same basic rubbish we've been watching for a year. The only difference now is that Auba isn't scoring from the scraps sent his way. Without him, no one else is fit for purpose to make up for that shortfall. Also another difference is that other coaches have sussed Arteta out so the unknown factor has gone.

It's the worst Arsenal team I've ever seen. A team who cannot play football through the centre anymore, everything must be sent wide and the hope is one of the million crosses we make is on the money. Arteta said we dominated the game yesteday, what planet is he living on? It was the easiest 3 points Spurs will take all season.

[IBK]

When I started this thread, we had just drawn with Leeds, and I genuinely wondered whether Arteta had made some wrong turns, but needed a bit of patience while he worked through our problems. I accepted the appointment of an inexperienced manager as a fait accompli, and was still of the opinion that short term pain might be worth it for long term gain.

It's astonishing how quickly the manager's shortcomings have since been laid bare; and how profound they seem to be.

I admit to believing that Arteta had, and was working to a long term plan. I thought also that he had good tactical skills and an understanding of what was needed on the pitch - albeit that he had sacrificed attacking endeavour for good defensive structure.

What has me really worried though is

- That fact that he has abandoned whatever plan he once had and is now clearly in Emery territory, apparently employing random 'tactics' on a trial and error basis while the players neither seem to understand or believe in what they are being asked to do
- His total inconsistency in his treatement of players, and seeming abandonment of any kind of meritocracy
- The fact that he seems to have lost his 'bottle' and looks to me like he is being dictated to by senior players
- The glaring absence of man- management skills

There seemed to be a consensus on here 3 weeks ago that Arteta had not lost the dressing room. How many people believe that now, I wonder?

This situation is now officially every bit as bad as it got under Emery, and frankly I can't see how the rot stops. We are indeed looking every bit as bad an Arsenal team as I have seen, and way under-performing given the ability of most of our players.

[Marc Overmars]

The more I think about it and the more you read about how he's dealt with certain players, I can't imagine it has gone down well within the squad. I would bet my house they feel like Ozil still is their best player but he's been bullied out of the club. No creativity in the team and they're all scratching their head as to why he's not available to help them.

It's all well and good ruling with an iron fist but you live and die by those decisions and I don't see any player that has flourished under him. He got a bit of a tune out of them at the start but whatever goodwill he had built up has gone.

Now we're hearing about a falling out with Luiz. Doesn't sound great for him to be honest, you can't keep on ostracizing players and not expect some kind of backlash. End of the day he is a rookie and the players know that and will inevitably band together if they feel he isn't worthy of their respect anymore.

[IBK]

The more I think about it and the more you read about how he's dealt with certain players, I can't imagine it has gone down well within the squad. I would bet my house they feel like Ozil still is their best player but he's been bullied out of the club. No creativity in the team and they're all scratching their head as to why he's not available to help them.

It's all well and good ruling with an iron fist but you live and die by those decisions and I don't see any player that has flourished under him. He got a bit of a tune out of them at the start but whatever goodwill he had built up has gone.

Hmmm. The general point I agree with. He has tried to establish his authority by freezing out certain players and while this is fine while you are getting results, Arteta has unnecessarily made a rod for his own back and when you take such a stance against your highest paid player it will inevitably come back to bite you.

But while Ozil is the obvious point of reference, I would wager that his refusal to pick on form players; his perseverance with the likes of the excrable Willian and Xhaka; and his public shaming of Pepe and Partey, when he was astonishingly lenient on Xhaka yesterday is having as great an effect on team morale. His seeming inability to arrest our current form even more so.

IMO there must be more to the Ozil situation than meets the eye. IIRC 3 managers - Emery; Ljungberg and Arteta have now dropped Ozil, and Emery's later U turn on him was damaging. Even Wenger was under pressure to drop Ozil due to him under performing on the pitch. This cannot be coincidence. The smart money says that despite his carefully cultivated public face, Ozil is a corrosive influence on this team.

The mistake the manager has made, in my opinion, is not necessarily dropping Ozil; its the contrast between this and his treatment of others. Its easy to see Ozil as the solution to our problems when he is not playing. Whether this would be borne out in practice we will probably never know.

[Marc Overmars]

Ozil is far from a solution but I don’t doubt he his a popular and influential member of the squad. So sending him packing probably hasn’t gone down well, on a human level.

Agree with his favouritism and public shaming of players. It’s all conducive of a unhappy squad.

I feel like he’s tried to lay down the law but is failing miserably now to connect with these players. Once you stop getting a tune out of them then the writing is on the wall I’m afraid.

He isn’t someone who commands a great deal of respect in the game, so coming in wielding his iron fist wouldn’t have gone down well, in hindsight.

[IBK]

Ozil is far from a solution but I don’t doubt he his a popular and influential member of the squad. So sending him packing probably hasn’t gone down well, on a human level.

Agree with his favouritism and public shaming of players. It’s all conducive of a unhappy squad.

I feel like he’s tried to lay down the law but is failing miserably now to connect with these players. Once you stop getting a tune out of them then the writing is on the wall I’m afraid.

He isn’t someone who commands a great deal of respect in the game, so coming in wielding his iron fist wouldn’t have gone down well, in hindsight.

Pretty much, yes. The pity is that Arteta talked a good game, so we all thought that despite his inexperience, he possessed the intelligence to learn on the job, having had a good grounding as Guardiola's understudy. Attributes such as inter-personal skills; man management and clarity of vision are as much innate as they can be learned, and the early indications were that Arteta had these. He brought players such as AMN and Xhaka in from the cold; brought on Saka, and seemed to be getting places with Pepe, as well as arresting our defensive decline and building team shape. Until this season he was getting a tune out of his players.

But lately, it is becoming apparent that he lacks either the personality or the maturity to deal with certain players, and our awful form has put pressure on aspects of his personality that appear lacking. He has shot himself in the foot by recruiting Willian who is clearly only here to pick up his pay cheque, and is IMO showing a streak of egotism in trying to justify this decision by continuing to start him, and Xhaka when it is clear to all concerned that they are not up to it. He has shown Guendouzi the door, and frozen out Ozil - seemingly blind to the fact that both players are in areas of the pitch where we are most lacking. He appears to ignore good performances by the likes of Elneny; AMN and Emile Smith Rowe displaying a blind and misplaced trust in more senior players. he gambled stupidly on Partey.

All these decisions suggest a mixture of naivity and high-handedness, and I'll grant you that this combination will be seen and affect his squad.

[Niall_Quinn]

Arteta still has the opportunity to bench all the overpaid trash and try to build a team with the younger players who still seem to give a damn. But that option will recede if this shite is allowed to carry on much longer. At this point I can't see what there is to lose, considering he'll lose his job anyway of he loses a few more games. At least he'd buy some time if he put the youngsters in. And if he really does have anything in his locker that he's failed to get through to the overpaid trash, maybe he'll have better luck with the kids.

Or, he could just keep doing the same thing over and over and hope for a different outcome.

[IBK]

Arteta still has the opportunity to bench all the overpaid trash and try to build a team with the younger players who still seem to give a damn. But that option will recede if this shite is allowed to carry on much longer. At this point I can't see what there is to lose, considering he'll lose his job anyway of he loses a few more games. At least he'd buy some time if he put the youngsters in. And if he really does have anything in his locker that he's failed to get through to the overpaid trash, maybe he'll have better luck with the kids.

Or, he could just keep doing the same thing over and over and hope for a different outcome.

Pretty much agree with that. Wholesale changes aren't really an option, IMO, but for sure I think he needs to shake things up with some younger players who have shown promise rather than stinking the place up. My fear is, however, that Arteta is now in Emery territory and has lost whatever plan he had in place. Personnel, tactics and vision are in a total mess, and I think the manager's lost his bottle and is now afraid of losing...he seesm to be wedded to the idea that only experience will get him out of this when the opposite is probably true..

[Bumble]

Pretty much agree with that. Wholesale changes aren't really an option, IMO, but for sure I think he needs to shake things up with some younger players who have shown promise rather than stinking the place up. My fear is, however, that Arteta is now in Emery territory and has lost whatever plan he had in place. Personnel, tactics and vision are in a total mess, and I think the manager's lost his bottle and is now afraid of losing...he seesm to be wedded to the idea that only experience will get him out of this when the opposite is probably true..

If he could give the younger players a go. Smith rowe. Neilson amn etc then perhaps the fans could see there is a plan. Give the kids a go. Its the only way to save his job.

The problem as mentioned before is that we have been so poor that its got to must not lose territory.

[Niall_Quinn]

If he could give the younger players a go. Smith rowe. Neilson amn etc then perhaps the fans could see there is a plan. Give the kids a go. Its the only way to save his job.

The problem as mentioned before is that we have been so poor that its got to must not lose territory.

We're losing anyway. I can't imagine he went into any recent game thinking we could afford to lose. But if he has a plan at all, the team he has shown faith in has spat back in his face. I've seen it, the lazy bastards (with a couple of exceptions) strolling around, second to every ball, picking the easy option every time. If he now goes back to them and says, help me out here, he deserves everything he gets. Which will be nothing. Drop the big name, do nothing losers and tell the kids this is it, a chance to win the hearts and minds of the club, the fans and each other - if they choose to accept the mission. We have some good kids at this club. Let them play. They might lose, but we're doing that anyway. But if they do lose, I bet it's with 100% more effort than the bunch of losers who have spent more time negotiating their wheelbarrow loads then performing on the pitch.

Instead of an over 30's policy, let's have an under 23's policy. We have absolutely nothing to lose and at least a chance of gaining something.

[Niall_Quinn]

Plus, we are now living the dangers of relying on a few big names. I think everyone agreed Auba had to stay. So he stayed. Got paid big. And now he's delivering nothing. Hasn't Eddie scored more goals than him? Haven't checked because I no longer care that much. Big names, big transfer fees mean shit. We need a cohesive team that plays for each other. One that hasn't had time to get comfortable in the Arsenal Way.

The youngsters are the only realistic option. Roll of the dice, but at least we get a roll. With the current crowd we might as well pack it in before a ball is kicked. They had their chance and failed every time.

[IBK]

I heard somewhere that Arsenal's huge problem with our huge contract renewals for existing players is that while other clubs pay big because of what they expect players to bring in future, we pay big because of what players have done in the past - when they have already been paid for those performances. It is symptomatic of the club's lack of direction. Arteta sold us a 3 year project. What he should be doing is looking at which players fit into his vision of how he wants his team to play. Instead, like all of our managers over the past few years - he seems desperately to be trying to find a system to make a bust flush of players work. It won't.

The reason Klopp has been so successful (along with being a genius manager) is that he arrived at Liverpool with a clear vision of how he wanted to play; recruited players to suit this, and got rid of those who didn't, or didn't buy into what he wanted to do. Noone expected Arteta do do all of this in a single year, but in many respects he has done the opposite to Klopp at Arsenal. I was happy about Auba's contract renewal, but the bottom line is that he is 31 and been given a 3 year contract. You would have thought that we would have learnt from Ozil. Willian - 32 and massive 3 year contract....despite us having Pepe who while flawed is a much better bet to take us forward. AMN - performs superbly and is praised for it yet doesn't play. Luis - 33 years old and often a liability yet an ever present when fit despite us being hugely over stocked at CB. Lacazette - 29 and fading before our eyes...

...and let's not forget that if, as it would appear, there is trouble in the ranks - it is precisely the above senior players who will be stoking it.

Arteta has done precisely the opposite of what he has told us he wanted to do, and in trying for short term results has also gone the opposite way. Its stupid and spineless - lacking vision and conviction which are precisely the attributes that we thought he was bringing. That's why its feels so disillusioning.

[Gooner23]

I heard somewhere that Arsenal's huge problem with our huge contract renewals for existing players is that while other clubs pay big because of what they expect players to bring in future, we pay big because of what players have done in the past - when they have already been paid for those performances. It is symptomatic of the club's lack of direction. Arteta sold us a 3 year project. What he should be doing is looking at which players fit into his vision of how he wants his team to play. Instead, like all of our managers over the past few years - he seems desperately to be trying to find a system to make a bust flush of players work. It won't.

The reason Klopp has been so successful (along with being a genius manager) is that he arrived at Liverpool with a clear vision of how he wanted to play; recruited players to suit this, and got rid of those who didn't, or didn't buy into what he wanted to do. Noone expected Arteta do do all of this in a single year, but in many respects he has done the opposite to Klopp at Arsenal. I was happy about Auba's contract renewal, but the bottom line is that he is 31 and been given a 3 year contract. You would have thought that we would have learnt from Ozil. Willian - 32 and massive 3 year contract....despite us having Pepe who while flawed is a much better bet to take us forward. AMN - performs superbly and is praised for it yet doesn't play. Luis - 33 years old and often a liability yet an ever present when fit despite us being hugely over stocked at CB. Lacazette - 29 and fading before our eyes...

...and let's not forget that if, as it would appear, there is trouble in the ranks - it is precisely the above senior players who will be stoking it.

Arteta has done precisely the opposite of what he has told us he wanted to do, and in trying for short term results has also gone the opposite way. Its stupid and spineless - lacking vision and conviction which are precisely the attributes that we thought he was bringing. That's why its feels so disillusioning.

I was hopeful Arteta would be more ruthless with the squad than he has been. I don't have any issues with binning off Ozil and Guendouzi, but the fact some players (like Xhaka) appear to be completely immune is not a good look. It's certainly not the youth letting him down right now.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Wenger, Emery, Ljungberg, Arteta.....

Doesn't seem to matter who is at the helm.

They all do the same things and make the same mistakes.

How are some of the same old, shite dross we have, still starting games each week - with the hope of them suddenly coming good and turning into top club players?

It's genuinely baffling.
Arteta convinced Xhaka to stay for example - what the fuck?!?

[Marc Overmars]

I can imagine a player like Xhaka must be quality in training. Having all the time in the world to spray passes around and look world class. All the managers have fallen for it.

Edu has said they're all training well. Which means absolutely fuck all considering we can't score and we're losing every game. :doh:

[Letters]

I don't think they're actually bad players.
But something isn't clicking right now and we're much less than the sum of their parts.

[Globalgunner]

I don't think they're actually bad players.
But something isn't clicking right now and we're much less than the sum of their parts.

Sorry, a lot of them are actually bad. Xhaka, Mustafi, Kolasinac. These are genuinely bad players and too old to be coached to the required level. Ozil is retired and deadweight. Bellerin has stagnated badly, so badly it still beggars belief that he plays for Spain at all or is picked regularly when fit. The problem in my mind is that we train these players but they are not coached. they are physically fit but tactically illiterate. There is no discernible strategy in the way we play. What this team longed for after Wenger left was a tactical coach who would force our mentally weak bunch of players to UNlearn everything they had been taught by Wengers dysfunctional methods. We needed a strong manager not a myth with absolutely no track record. I would take Benitez till the end of the season, though my first pick would be Allegri

[Letters]

They're all international players :shrug:
I mean, none of them are superstars but they're not actually bad players.
Initially Arteta did seem to have got them playing better, there was more shape and organisation. We stopped shipping so many goals and were actually getting decent results.
Now we're a complete shambles. We're not getting hammered but we're not able to score goals which means any mistake at the back and it's a loss.
It's very worrying, you can't see where the next goal let alone win is coming from.

[Niall_Quinn]

I can imagine a player like Xhaka must be quality in training. Having all the time in the world to spray passes around and look world class. All the managers have fallen for it.

Edu has said they're all training well. Which means absolutely fuck all considering we can't score and we're losing every game. :doh:

These managers buy into their own bullshit. Statistical analysis of every single aspect of the game that goes flying out the window on the first random ricochet or dodgy reffing decision. It looked, for a short while, Arteta had managed to get them playing the basics proficiently. Keep the shape, cover the space, play as a unit, keep up the effort for the full 90. Absolute basics. Which, sad to say, was a sign of progress for us. He's tried to progress to stage 2 of the rebuild, actually do something with the ball, and everyone has been found lacking. He missed a step where the players should have been taught how to take throw-ins. You can't take anything for granted with this lot. He probably had to show them how to lace their boots too.

[Mac76]

Sorry, a lot of them are actually bad. Xhaka, Mustafi, Kolasinac. These are genuinely bad players and too old to be coached to the required level. Ozil is retired and deadweight. Bellerin has stagnated badly, so badly it still beggars belief that he plays for Spain at all or is picked regularly when fit. The problem in my mind is that we train these players but they are not coached. they are physically fit but tactically illiterate. There is no discernible strategy in the way we play. What this team longed for after Wenger left was a tactical coach who would force our mentally weak bunch of players to UNlearn everything they had been taught by Wengers dysfunctional methods. We needed a strong manager not a myth with absolutely no track record. I would take Benitez till the end of the season, though my first pick would be Allegri

This

[selassie]

I heard somewhere that Arsenal's huge problem with our huge contract renewals for existing players is that while other clubs pay big because of what they expect players to bring in future, we pay big because of what players have done in the past - when they have already been paid for those performances. It is symptomatic of the club's lack of direction. Arteta sold us a 3 year project. What he should be doing is looking at which players fit into his vision of how he wants his team to play. Instead, like all of our managers over the past few years - he seems desperately to be trying to find a system to make a bust flush of players work. It won't.

The reason Klopp has been so successful (along with being a genius manager) is that he arrived at Liverpool with a clear vision of how he wanted to play; recruited players to suit this, and got rid of those who didn't, or didn't buy into what he wanted to do. Noone expected Arteta do do all of this in a single year, but in many respects he has done the opposite to Klopp at Arsenal. I was happy about Auba's contract renewal, but the bottom line is that he is 31 and been given a 3 year contract. You would have thought that we would have learnt from Ozil. Willian - 32 and massive 3 year contract....despite us having Pepe who while flawed is a much better bet to take us forward. AMN - performs superbly and is praised for it yet doesn't play. Luis - 33 years old and often a liability yet an ever present when fit despite us being hugely over stocked at CB. Lacazette - 29 and fading before our eyes...

...and let's not forget that if, as it would appear, there is trouble in the ranks - it is precisely the above senior players who will be stoking it.

Arteta has done precisely the opposite of what he has told us he wanted to do, and in trying for short term results has also gone the opposite way. Its stupid and spineless - lacking vision and conviction which are precisely the attributes that we thought he was bringing. That's why its feels so disillusioning.

:gp:

Superb post bro, hope all is well with you.

[Letters]

It's genuinely baffling to me that players at this level can't do basic things like take set pieces.
And I know I've just said they're not bad players but I don't think that's unique to our lot.
Lot of ineptitude and Emperor's New Clothes in the modern game.

[Niall_Quinn]

Sorry, a lot of them are actually bad. Xhaka, Mustafi, Kolasinac. These are genuinely bad players and too old to be coached to the required level. Ozil is retired and deadweight. Bellerin has stagnated badly, so badly it still beggars belief that he plays for Spain at all or is picked regularly when fit. The problem in my mind is that we train these players but they are not coached. they are physically fit but tactically illiterate. There is no discernible strategy in the way we play. What this team longed for after Wenger left was a tactical coach who would force our mentally weak bunch of players to UNlearn everything they had been taught by Wengers dysfunctional methods. We needed a strong manager not a myth with absolutely no track record. I would take Benitez till the end of the season, though my first pick would be Allegri

You know what would happen if we took on a stop-gap manager. He'd get a bump, save us from the drop zone and everyone would be saying his reward is to stay on. Risky strategy that one. Better to dump the deadweight, which is most of our senior squad, and stick AMN in the middle, and build a team around him from the youngsters (including Saka and Tierney)

[selassie]

It's genuinely baffling to me that players at this level can't do basic things like take set pieces.
And I know I've just said they're not bad players but I don't think that's unique to our lot.
Lot of ineptitude and Emperor's New Clothes in the modern game.

Can't or wont? I.E. They have simply given up playing for Arteta?

I think the latter, they have downed tools...nothing Arteta says is getting through to them. Arteta's position is now untenable for me, he must go first and I think Edu should go with him.

[Chippy]

You know what would happen if we took on a stop-gap manager. He'd get a bump, save us from the drop zone and everyone would be saying his reward is to stay on. Risky strategy that one. Better to dump the deadweight, which is most of our senior squad, and stick AMN in the middle, and build a team around him from the youngsters (including Saka and Tierney)

Spot on!
We so need a bump to get us away from the bottom. I have said it before, can you see any of this lot rolling up their sleeves if we are in a relegation dog fight? I am truly worried.

[IBK]

:gp:

Superb post bro, hope all is well with you.

Likelwise, my man. Despite the shit show we have at the moment, its good to be back on here!

[IBK]

Wenger, Emery, Ljungberg, Arteta.....

Doesn't seem to matter who is at the helm.

They all do the same things and make the same mistakes.

How are some of the same old, shite dross we have, still starting games each week - with the hope of them suddenly coming good and turning into top club players?

It's genuinely baffling.
Arteta convinced Xhaka to stay for example - what the fuck?!?

IMO - the fact that the same thing has happened with different managers speaks to a deeper problem than just bad players. Like Letters, I don't think that we have bad players (Willian and Xhaka excepted - they are clearly past it). Like for like on an individual basis they are better than the players in at least 2/3 of EPL teams. I think our problem is systemic. We don't have the right players for the way the managers are trying to play, and successive managers are trying to find a system that suits them rather than deciding on a system and finding players to suit it. There are layers on top of this also. Wenger persisted with players that weren't performing, but in a way I am going to cut him a little slack as he had ben at the club so long that he had lost long term focus. Emery started with some sort of plan, and it worked - insofar as he was probably getting results for a while that reflected the level of talent he had. But then he bottled it and totally lost his way. Arteta has made stupid and baffling decisions and as I've said there is no evidence whatsoever of a coordinated strategy. he should never have been made manager.

Teams need players in key positions that make a team tick. Ramsey was the last player we had of this ilk. What happened with him is illistrative of a glaring problem at Arsenal - player recruitment and retention. We put our faith in, and hold onto the wrong players because we are not bold enough to work to a proper long term vision of the future. Recruitment was taken out of Emery's hands - remember when he wanted Zaha? He got Pepe, but those making the decisions had not a clue.

I had no problem with Arteta convincing certain players to stay when he arrived. After all, he needed to try to use what he had to get a tune out of them. His recruitment of Partey made sense, and he was clearly earmarked to anchor the MF going forwards. The manager also seemed to recognise that further recruitment was needed - hence our interest in Aouar. What is far less excusable, IMO is his persistence with Xhaka when he has stunk the place up. If he had a vision, then he should have had the balls to use our younger players - who at least have some prospect of improving.

[IBK]

Spot on!
We so need a bump to get us away from the bottom. I have said it before, can you see any of this lot rolling up their sleeves if we are in a relegation dog fight? I am truly worried.

Isn't NQ arguing against a stop gap manager?

[IBK]

Can't or wont? I.E. They have simply given up playing for Arteta?

I think the latter, they have downed tools...nothing Arteta says is getting through to them. Arteta's position is now untenable for me, he must go first and I think Edu should go with him.

Aye - I think that they have lost faith in his methods. The surprising thing is how quicklythis has happened, and I think that it speaks to a deeper malaise at Arsenal than simply having a rookie manager. This is the one area where I have some sympathy for Arteta. What he did see was the problems with the prevailing attitudes amongst our players - who are not prepared to roll up their sleeves and fight when the going is hard. This has dogged us for years, and can be traced back to Wenger's mollycoddling. The only way to root out this mental issue is to start with young/new players. I strongly suspect that Arteta's perseverence with Xhaka stems from the fact that he appears to the manager to have the right attitude when others do not. It's just a shame that he is the wek link playing wise.

Arteta's main problem with trying to address the mental fraility at our club is that having identified the problem, he then persists with old has-beens like Luis and Willian - who have form in agitating against managers at Chelsea, and fails properly to bring in his youngsters who have shown some fight. Poor management.

[Mac76]

three stories i've seen this morning showing what a mess Arteta is making:

- Torreira doesn't want to come back from loan

- Ozil wants to honour his contract and doesn't want to be paid off - his agent says "Mesut was the player who reached 50 Premier League assists, faster than anyone else, in 141 appearances and Arsenal need exactly this kind of creativity. They say he was sidelined for 'football reasons' but that's not something I can comment on. I think the fans want him back on the pitch and at the last match they also chanted his name."

- Saliba is probably going out on loan in January

[IBK]

three stories i've seen this morning showing what a mess Arteta is making:

- Torreira doesn't want to come back from loan

- Ozil wants to honour his contract and doesn't want to be paid off - his agent says "Mesut was the player who reached 50 Premier League assists, faster than anyone else, in 141 appearances and Arsenal need exactly this kind of creativity. They say he was sidelined for 'football reasons' but that's not something I can comment on. I think the fans want him back on the pitch and at the last match they also chanted his name."

- Saliba is probably going out on loan in January

I think we need to be a bit cautious before blaming Arteta for everything - albeit that he is failing pretty badly. Torreira was not pulling up any trees when he last played and the Athletico experiment hasn't worked. The stories I am seeing is that he may come back to Arsenal early. Not the player's decision anyway.

Ozil has been picked over ad nauseam. As I posted elsewhere, he and his agent are doing a good PR job, but (1) sucessive managers have had issue with him and this can't be coincidence, and (2) you have to wonder about a player who has no need for money staying at a club where he is not playing. What kind of football ambition is that?

Saliba is a head-scratcher for sure but his position is not one where we are lacking personnel.

[Mac76]

Someone's posted comments by Vinai and Edu from a fan forum the club held last night - basically lots of stuff about difficulties, but the club is holding it together and having faith in Mikel - oh and none of the players are unhappy :haha:

https://twitter.com/Peterhoest/status/1338949269173243912

[Niall_Quinn]

Excellent! This unity and happiness should translate onto the pitch then. Looking forward to the new reality tonight.

[dazthegooner]

Even if we were to win the next 3 games (don't laugh) though concede too may goals in the process Arteta would probably bring Zhaka back anyway.

[Bumble]

Looks like we are going to miss out on Big Sam. As Bilic has been sacked.

[GP]

Even if we were to win the next 3 games (don't laugh) though concede too may goals in the process Arteta would probably bring Zhaka back anyway.

Who?

[Ollie the Optimist]

Someone's posted comments by Vinai and Edu from a fan forum the club held last night - basically lots of stuff about difficulties, but the club is holding it together and having faith in Mikel - oh and none of the players are unhappy :haha:

https://twitter.com/Peterhoest/status/1338949269173243912


I think this is the most revealing comment:

Edu: It’s quite clear what we need. (about transfers)
We need a player with creativity in the middle, we don’t have that in the squad right now.


It’s complete bullshit. I have no issue if they want to sell Ozil but dont come out and say we dont have any creative players when there is one right there. Plus Pepe, Smith-Rowe etc.

its comments like that that just cause fans not to trust anyone at the club

[Özim]

Arteta has come out to support Xhaka, it's an absolute joke considering how this guy criticised Pepe, it's double standards again as it was with Willian, the sooner this chump is sacked the better, he's an absolute joke of a manager!




But Arteta says the 28-year-old warrants his support. "He has had tough times here and he's not the only one, there's a lot of players that have had rocky moments," he said.

"But what I can say about Granit is that his professionalism and his commitment with the club and with his team-mates is maximal.

"He knows - and we all know - that he had a moment where he's lost it and I know the reason why. But what I cannot do is just throw everything that he has done away because he's made a mistake.

"We all make mistakes and I am here as well to protect the players when I see that they deserve that.

"And, for sure, Granit is one of them - for the way that he approaches every training session, for the way he wants to do things in the right way all the time and for the professional that he is."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55316020

[Ollie the Optimist]

Fully agree that is comments on Xhaka were out of order given what he said about Pepe.

It’s not like Xhaka hasn’t had a history of rash red cards etc whereas that was Pepes first one for us i think.

[IBK]

Arteta has come out to support Xhaka, it's an absolute joke considering how this guy criticised Pepe, it's double standards again as it was with Willian, the sooner this chump is sacked the better, he's an absolute joke of a manager!



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55316020

Spot on. Its laugable really - and the Arteta regime was supposed to be a meritocricy :rolleyes:

My theory is that Arteta is in thrall to his senior players because he thinks he needs them to help manage the team - when they are the very ones most stinking the place up.

[selassie]

Arteta has come out to support Xhaka, it's an absolute joke considering how this guy criticised Pepe, it's double standards again as it was with Willian, the sooner this chump is sacked the better, he's an absolute joke of a manager!



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55316020

It wouldn't be so bad if Xhaka actually contributed to the team but he has been absolute dogshit from day one. Arteta not only sucks as a coach, he can't even manage the players fairly.

[IBK]

It wouldn't be so bad if Xhaka actually contributed to the team but he has been absolute dogshit from day one. Arteta not only sucks as a coach, he can't even manage the players fairly.

Arseblog has pointed out today that while the likes of Gabriel and Pepe apologised for red cards that weren't anything like as unforgivable as Xhaka's behaviour, there has been a deafening silence from him; and that this points to disparity in the team. He makes the point that Xhaka is the cornerstone of the culture we need to move away from if the club is going to progress, and he is right. I never want to see this prick in an Arsenal shirt again, and the fact that Arteta will undoubtedly pick him again once he has served his ban sums up my disillusionment with our manager.

[Mac76]

Arseblog has pointed out today that while the likes of Gabriel and Pepe apologised for red cards that weren't anything like as unforgivable as Xhaka's behaviour, there has been a deafening silence from him; and that this points to disparity in the team. He makes the point that Xhaka is the cornerstone of the culture we need to move away from if the club is going to progress, and he is right. I never want to see this prick in an Arsenal shirt again, and the fact that Arteta will undoubtedly pick him again once he has served his ban sums up my disillusionment with our manager.

I've felt that way about Xhaka from about six months in from his starting with us - he showed some promise at the start but quickly was exposed as a slow clumsy f****r with a bad attitude on the pitch, but what's become ever clearer since is that his one talent appears to be sucking up to the manager and being the teachers' pet.

the contrast between the way he's treated and the way players like Guen, Oxil and Pepe have been treated is unbelieveable

i'd love to see a proper manager with balls come in and tell him to do one

[Gooner23]

Spot on. Its laugable really - and the Arteta regime was supposed to be a meritocricy :rolleyes:

My theory is that Arteta is in thrall to his senior players because he thinks he needs them to help manage the team - when they are the very ones most stinking the place up.

The irony is some of the senior players he has backed to the hilt (Luiz & Willian) are now allegedly conspiring against him.

[Mac76]

The irony is some of the senior players he has backed to the hilt (Luiz & Willian) are now allegedly conspiring against him.

Chelsea players are masters at getting managers ousted - it would be ironic if those useless has-beens Luiz and Willian help us get rid of him

[selassie]

Arseblog has pointed out today that while the likes of Gabriel and Pepe apologised for red cards that weren't anything like as unforgivable as Xhaka's behaviour, there has been a deafening silence from him; and that this points to disparity in the team. He makes the point that Xhaka is the cornerstone of the culture we need to move away from if the club is going to progress, and he is right. I never want to see this prick in an Arsenal shirt again, and the fact that Arteta will undoubtedly pick him again once he has served his ban sums up my disillusionment with our manager.

Yep, we are on the same page IBK, totally agree.

[Gooner23]

Rumours that Martinelli could be in the squad tomorrow as not involved with the U23s tonight. That would be a big boost to have him back.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Possibly but it is 9 on the bench now, so it might be just for the numbers. :lol:

Arteta was speaking enthusiastically about him though so hopefully he'll be involved very soon.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It seems we were underplaying it.

[Gooner23]

Whoever the manager is next summer, half these players need to fuck the fuck off.

[Mac76]

Arteta's got to go, it's that simple, I'm sure i read somewhere that he'd been given the last three games to turn it around, but it's not happened

Time to get Allegri or Ralf Rangnick in

[selassie]

Arteta's got to go, it's that simple, I'm sure i read somewhere that he'd been given the last three games to turn it around, but it's not happened

Time to get Allegri or Ralf Rangnick in

Aye, Arteta definitely needs to go, not just for the unacceptable performances, number of back to back defeats and current position in the table, but also for his man management of some of the players in the Squad.

We are to a certain extent at crossroads now, do we get someone experienced in to just steady the ship and see out the season? I personally think that is the best thing to do given the current state of the squad. There are so many question marks over so many players, the Ozil situation, Guendouzi situation, Torreira situation, the likes of Mustafi, Luiz, Sokratis, Lacazette, Balogun etc. Most of those lot will probably go which is fine by me, but we are going to need to do further restructuring and rebuilding of the squad.

Regarding the rebuild, if Edu is to stay he is going to need an experienced DOF to work with him to rebuild the squad, rebuilding is difficult enough as is when you have an experienced team, rebuilding when we have the likes of Edu and Arteta (if he manages to stay in the job) will simply be beyond them IMO, it is a huge task and one that is very easy to get wrong as we are seeing now.

I am hoping those above look at this current situation as a two part process, priority being to sort us out short term and actually finish the season in a semi-respectable position. Then the summer rebuild where a number of players will most likely be departing.

Also, given the upheavel of last season, the car crash that is unfolding this season, unless we improve drastically, we are going to need to humble ourselves come the summer and rebuild by picking up under the radar players. We simply will not be a catch for any half decent player without any European football next season.

[Niall_Quinn]

We've had Dick, Freddie and Mick. Nothing changed. None of them were able to take the Arsene out of Arsenal. And the next guy won't have any success either unless all these senior players are dumped. Talk about virus - these guys are infected and beyond recovery. We have three, maybe four, senior players who are salvageable or too new to be beyond hope. If we do get a new manager in and we don't see him selling virtually the whole first team then you can be sure he's just another name on a growing list.

[selassie]

We've had Dick, Freddie and Mick. Nothing changed. None of them were able to take the Arsene out of Arsenal. And the next guy won't have any success either unless all these senior players are dumped. Talk about virus - these guys are infected and beyond recovery. We have three, maybe four, senior players who are salvageable or too new to be beyond hope. If we do get a new manager in and we don't see him selling virtually the whole first team then you can be sure he's just another name on a growing list.

I pretty much agree, but with a half decent manager, this squad of players should be finishing around 6th in this league.

With pretty much the same squad last season, Arteta had us finishing the season relatively strongly last season coupled with the Cup Win and beating City and Chelsea along the way.

We do need to ship out pretty much all of the experienced senior players, but they are better than what they are serving up right now, we are 15th for FFS, it's totally unacceptable.

[Niall_Quinn]

I hadn't heard it before, but the word is going around Freddie was absolutely scathing of these senior players before he handed over the management. Not Arsenal material, he supposedly said. And, if true, (and we should find out if it's true), this is potentially an Invincible telling a truth that the fans already know. If not true - then why not? Somebody at the club has to speak up and call these lazy, big bucks bastards out. You can't be taking all that money and just strolling around. Those days need to be gone. And if you are going to sulk and undermine every manager who tries to get a fair day's work out of you, then don't be wearing the shirt. Wear civvies if you are going to be a cunt.

[Niall_Quinn]

I pretty much agree, but with a half decent manager, this squad of players should be finishing around 6th in this league.

With pretty much the same squad last season, Arteta had us finishing the season relatively strongly last season coupled with the Cup Win and beating City and Chelsea along the way.

We do need to ship out pretty much all of the experienced senior players, but they are better than what they are serving up right now, we are 15th for FFS, it's totally unacceptable.

I don't think any manager coming in now would drop 90% of the first team. And I don't think any manager would get the financial support he needs from the Kroenke leeches (who have somehow convinced the fans that gate money and sponsorship money came out of their pockets). The cancer is at the top and it seeps down. These players can win, as you point out, but they can also coast, because the whole culture at Arsenal is not about winning and competing, it's about making ends meet and they boast about it. Sustainable club, blah, blah. Well you can be sustainable by overspending and winning trophies, like Liverpool and the gypos have demonstrated. It's he who dares wins, not he who budgets survives.

The club is rotten to the core. It was made rotten by Kroenke and Wenger and now we are seeing their handiwork come home to roost. Everyone looks for results in the span of a season. But a club fails over many seasons, and it takes just as long or even longer to reverse the course. When did Wenger leave? We've probably got another 3 years pain in order to wash away his poison and start again.

[Ollie the Optimist]

There is an article in the daily mirror today (or might have been from yesterday) saying that the reason Arteta didn’t want Ozil in his squad is because of his inability to play on the flanks.


Why not use Ozil in the middle where his strengths are and sign a winger rather then trying to put a round peg in a square hole.

[Marc Overmars]

That’s because he’s a coach cut from the cloth of David Moyes.

[Mac76]

That’s because he’s a coach cut from the cloth of David Moyes.

I'd probably take Moyes right now, the 'ammers are doing better than us

[Mac76]

Adams calls Arsenal out on Willian :clap:

https://amp.sportsmole.co.uk/football/arsenal/transfer-talk/news/tony-adams-questions-arsenals-willian-signing_427396.html

[Letters]

I pretty much agree, but with a half decent manager, this squad of players should be finishing around 6th in this league.

With pretty much the same squad last season, Arteta had us finishing the season relatively strongly last season coupled with the Cup Win and beating City and Chelsea along the way.

We do need to ship out pretty much all of the experienced senior players, but they are better than what they are serving up right now, we are 15th for FFS, it's totally unacceptable.

We finished 5th - 2 points off 3rd - the season after Wenger left. And we got to the Europa Cup Final.
The idea that Wenger left us with a terrible squad is nonsense. The end result of the season after he left was a perfectly reasonable base to build on.
It's all gone to shit since then

[selassie]

We finished 5th - 2 points off 3rd - the season after Wenger left. And we got to the Europa Cup Final.
The idea that Wenger left us with a terrible squad is nonsense. The end result of the season after he left was a perfectly reasonable base to build on.
It's all gone to shit since then

Aye, sorry when I meant pretty much all the experienced players, I was talking about the likes of Luiz, Sokratis, Mustafi, Chambers (?), Xhaka, Elneny, Ceballos, Ozil, Lacazette, Guendouzi (?), Torreira & Willian (?)

Question marks behind the players who are 50/50, could be salvaged under a decent coach.

[selassie]

I don't think any manager coming in now would drop 90% of the first team. And I don't think any manager would get the financial support he needs from the Kroenke leeches (who have somehow convinced the fans that gate money and sponsorship money came out of their pockets). The cancer is at the top and it seeps down. These players can win, as you point out, but they can also coast, because the whole culture at Arsenal is not about winning and competing, it's about making ends meet and they boast about it. Sustainable club, blah, blah. Well you can be sustainable by overspending and winning trophies, like Liverpool and the gypos have demonstrated. It's he who dares wins, not he who budgets survives.

The club is rotten to the core. It was made rotten by Kroenke and Wenger and now we are seeing their handiwork come home to roost. Everyone looks for results in the span of a season. But a club fails over many seasons, and it takes just as long or even longer to reverse the course. When did Wenger leave? We've probably got another 3 years pain in order to wash away his poison and start again.

Aye, sorry when I meant pretty much all the experienced players, I was talking about the likes of Luiz, Sokratis, Mustafi, Chambers (?), Xhaka, Elneny, Ceballos, Ozil, Lacazette, Guendouzi (?), Torreira & Willian (?)

Question marks behind the players who are 50/50, could be salvaged under a decent coach.

[IBK]

Aye, Arteta definitely needs to go, not just for the unacceptable performances, number of back to back defeats and current position in the table, but also for his man management of some of the players in the Squad.

We are to a certain extent at crossroads now, do we get someone experienced in to just steady the ship and see out the season? I personally think that is the best thing to do given the current state of the squad. There are so many question marks over so many players, the Ozil situation, Guendouzi situation, Torreira situation, the likes of Mustafi, Luiz, Sokratis, Lacazette, Balogun etc. Most of those lot will probably go which is fine by me, but we are going to need to do further restructuring and rebuilding of the squad.

Regarding the rebuild, if Edu is to stay he is going to need an experienced DOF to work with him to rebuild the squad, rebuilding is difficult enough as is when you have an experienced team, rebuilding when we have the likes of Edu and Arteta (if he manages to stay in the job) will simply be beyond them IMO, it is a huge task and one that is very easy to get wrong as we are seeing now.

I am hoping those above look at this current situation as a two part process, priority being to sort us out short term and actually finish the season in a semi-respectable position. Then the summer rebuild where a number of players will most likely be departing.

Also, given the upheavel of last season, the car crash that is unfolding this season, unless we improve drastically, we are going to need to humble ourselves come the summer and rebuild by picking up under the radar players. We simply will not be a catch for any half decent player without any European football next season.

My view is that Arteta's man management and decisions are the reason he needs to go, more than the league position and performances. If it were just the latter, and we could see some kind of a plan and competent analysis of what the team needs, I would back him to stay - mostly because the last thing we need is yet more instability. Our performances have been poor - particularly going forwards, but there have been some fine losing margins too.

But I am totally disillusioned by Arteta's reality over the 'vision' that he set out. This is not Ozil. That ship has long sailed. It's Willian and Xhaka, and his indulgence of shit attitudes and performances from senior players while failing to reward, or try younger, more deserving players. We needed Arsenal to forget any top 4 delusions and go for long term - but what has the manager done to follow a long term plan? For me, Arteta is firmly in Emery territory - he seems to have lost all semblance of a plan.

Arteta either doesn't have the bottle, or the wish/ability to deliver what this team needs - which is a total change in attitude. I despise Willian and Xhaka, but to a lesser extent also Auba and Luiz for playing like indulged prima donnas who get paid to carry the club but go missing when we most need them. At least the likes of Laca and Bellerin try. They are not good enough but talent s not our primary issue IMO. It's culture and attitude and Arteta is indulging this just as much if not more than those before him.

I do have grave doubts about being able to get the manager we need though. Maybe I'll do a new thread on this...

[Mac76]

Agree with all of that IBK