Here's where we are.

[mandela8]

The level of fitba insight on here is abysmal, so ima do you all a favor and tell you what to think. Rather than parrot Sky Sports or The Sun or wherever you're getting your opinions from. You can now just copy mine. Will make you all less of a bed wetter and make your penis approx 1 inch longer. That's a 100% increase for many of you.

GK
Ramsay is the boy. A completely unnecessary buy but he's been brilliant. Arsenal should've spent that money elsewhere but meh. He's no1 for the next decade, hopefully.

Defence
Tierney, Tommy are great. Thought Tierney was a bit shit for much of last season but poor form rather than ability. Tommy is extremely limited going forward. The number of times he had an easy forward pass on but he chose to go inside or back was frustrating as fuck but he's a solid defender.
Gabriel is solid enough. Got a howler in him but should mate out of that. I like him.
White is a bit of a pussy. He isn't terrible but he's not very good either. Waste of money. Saliba should start ahead of him and I've genuinely never seen Saliba play.
Holding is shit but for some reason probably my favorite player at the club. No idea why.

MF
Partey is the best player at the club. By a distance. Elite ability. Just has that bit of class about him. Can take the ball on the turn, and moves the ball forward between the lines. The only MF we have that can. The team needs to be built around. Capable of utterly shit passes though. But if I looked up and saw idiots like Xhaka and Saka it'd put me off too.

Xhaka and Elneny. Just horrific players. Xhaka is abysmal and Elneny a coward, terrified of forward passes.

Lokonga is decent, man. Should've played far more than he did, beside Partey.

AM/Wingers
Odegaard is closest to partey in quality. Clear 2nd best. Should get better too. Great player.
Saka. Fuck me. Never seen anything like it. He's atrocious yet over rated to an extent I've never seen in nearly 40 years of me being right about absolutely everything fitba relayed. I've sat and watched him be pure shite then get man of the match. It's just weird. At least he got a few goals last year but more important were the chances that died when the ball goes to him him.

ESR needs to kick on. Doesn't assert himself enough. Hopefully just young but needs to do summin next season.

Martinelli is an exciting headless chicken with close to zero end product.

Striker
Nketiah has never done enough but I seen summin against West Ham. Just had a little bit about him. Glad he resigned.

Signings
Viera I've been a huge fan of ever since I first heard of him 2 days ago. Another progressive/forward thinking midfielder is an absolute must, man.

Rumors
Jesus - not convinced he's the striker to move is up a level. Going from a Vlahovic to Jesus just makes no sense to me. But I'm not against it, I guess. Just naw excited.

Raphinia - sure, good player and we need at least one proven wide player in the squad, ffs.

Tielemans - sure, why not. Need another CM and he's an improvement.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Welcome to the forum :)


Now down to business, WTF is this shit? :shrug:

[Letters]

Interesting about Partey, I don't think he's that good.
And Saka is brilliant, give your head a wobble.

[Gooner23]

Ramsay in goal, top work.

[Gooner23]

And for calling our best player shit :haha:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Saka is overrated and shit? Crikey even Adrian Durham wouldn’t make such a claim

There are games where Saka has played poorly, but at his best he’s relentless…he’s a menace to defenders with his persistence and skill.

There’s not many ways you can unite the disparate group on this forum, but I imagine the vast majority of us will be confused by your assessment

[Chippy]

The level of fitba insight on here is abysmal, so ima do you all a favor and tell you what to think. Rather than parrot Sky Sports or The Sun or wherever you're getting your opinions from. You can now just copy mine. Will make you all less of a bed wetter and make your penis approx 1 inch longer. That's a 100% increase for many of you.

GK
Ramsay is the boy. A completely unnecessary buy but he's been brilliant. Arsenal should've spent that money elsewhere but meh. He's no1 for the next decade, hopefully.

Defence
Tierney, Tommy are great. Thought Tierney was a bit shit for much of last season but poor form rather than ability. Tommy is extremely limited going forward. The number of times he had an easy forward pass on but he chose to go inside or back was frustrating as fuck but he's a solid defender.
Gabriel is solid enough. Got a howler in him but should mate out of that. I like him.
White is a bit of a pussy. He isn't terrible but he's not very good either. Waste of money. Saliba should start ahead of him and I've genuinely never seen Saliba play.
Holding is shit but for some reason probably my favorite player at the club. No idea why.

MF
Partey is the best player at the club. By a distance. Elite ability. Just has that bit of class about him. Can take the ball on the turn, and moves the ball forward between the lines. The only MF we have that can. The team needs to be built around. Capable of utterly shit passes though. But if I looked up and saw idiots like Xhaka and Saka it'd put me off too.

Xhaka and Elneny. Just horrific players. Xhaka is abysmal and Elneny a coward, terrified of forward passes.

Lokonga is decent, man. Should've played far more than he did, beside Partey.

AM/Wingers
Odegaard is closest to partey in quality. Clear 2nd best. Should get better too. Great player.
Saka. Fuck me. Never seen anything like it. He's atrocious yet over rated to an extent I've never seen in nearly 40 years of me being right about absolutely everything fitba relayed. I've sat and watched him be pure shite then get man of the match. It's just weird. At least he got a few goals last year but more important were the chances that died when the ball goes to him him.

ESR needs to kick on. Doesn't assert himself enough. Hopefully just young but needs to do summin next season.

Martinelli is an exciting headless chicken with close to zero end product.

Striker
Nketiah has never done enough but I seen summin against West Ham. Just had a little bit about him. Glad he resigned.

Signings
Viera I've been a huge fan of ever since I first heard of him 2 days ago. Another progressive/forward thinking midfielder is an absolute must, man.

Rumors
Jesus - not convinced he's the striker to move is up a level. Going from a Vlahovic to Jesus just makes no sense to me. But I'm not against it, I guess. Just naw excited.

Raphinia - sure, good player and we need at least one proven wide player in the squad, ffs.

Tielemans - sure, why not. Need another CM and he's an improvement.

Mate, I would leave the booze and funny fags alone before you write a ridiculous post like this one.

[I am invisible]

Bukayo Saka is all things to all men and to one lucky lady.

[mandela8]

Interesting about Partey, I don't think he's that good.
And Saka is brilliant, give your head a wobble.

Partey is a beautiful player, man. The way he can take a pass and turn past a man is brilliant. He then tries difficult passes that no one else does. He also inexplicably gives the ball away far more than he should buy We're utterly shit without him.

[mandela8]

The Saka stuff is just ridiculous. It's pure mob mentality at this point and there's literally zero objectivity around him.

He's the one constant in a pretty inept attack. That's telling on it's own. Not that I attribute it entirely to him but he's a huge part of it.

His decision making is terrible. Very slow to make a decision and when he does it's usually the wrong one. Laca turned to absolute shit but the service (lack of) was a huge part of it.

His directness is abysmal. The number of great chances that gets to Saka who then takes an age to get the ball out of his feet is staggering. I've never seen a player fail to get a shot away as often as he does. Or a player who has so many blocked shots, because he takes so long to get it off. Can you even post clips on this thread. A great example was the home Wolves game. I think Odegaard played him through on the edge of the box there was no one within 10 yards of him. He lost the ball. One example of dozens.

His shooting is the worst I've ever seen in professional fitba. The number of shots he scuffs is actually mental.

People claim he's great but I challenge anyone to actually give me examples of a few games he's dominated. No one can. Like I said, I've watched him play shockingly only to get man of the match and have everyone fawn over him. Legit bizarre.

I get he's an arsenal boy and seems really nice a likeable but people are just blinded by this. It's quite the phenomenon, really.

Anyway...I'll leave that challenge open for anyone who thinks they can tell me when he's actually been as good as people seem to think he is.

[I am invisible]

Partey is a beautiful player, man. The way he can take a pass and turn past a man is brilliant. He then tries difficult passes that no one else does. He also inexplicably gives the ball away far more than he should buy We're utterly shit without him.

Good summary of his strengths and value to the side :good:

This is one of those changes to the game that I don't think a lot of the football-viewing world has fully caught up to yet. When people think of the guy at the base of the midfield a lot of minds still automatically go to an energetic, terrier-type, like a Makelele or a Kante, but that's not really the job any more - most of that aggressive pressing and harrying and ball-winning is now done by the forwards in a high press, and the DMs are now the ones getting chased down! The job has become more about being able to take the ball under pressure, turn a marker, wriggle out of tight spaces, and break lines, either through ball-carrying or quick distribution. Don't get me wrong, TP is still a very good ball-winner when he has to be, but it's not really his super-power and it's not what makes him so effective in that role - it's actually a fairly minor part of his game.

Whether you could call his time here a success is up for debate - it's taken him a while to find a role that he really owns (probably more of a systemic issue than an individual one) and he's spent as much time out injured as he has available, but when he's on it then he really is immense and does the job of two men.

[mandela8]

Good summary of his strengths and value to the side :good:

This is one of those changes to the game that I don't think a lot of the football-viewing world has fully caught up to yet. When people think of the guy at the base of the midfield a lot of minds still automatically go to an energetic, terrier-type, like a Makelele or a Kante, but that's not really the job any more - most of that aggressive pressing and harrying and ball-winning is now done by the forwards in a high press, and the DMs are now the ones getting chased down! The job has become more about being able to take the ball under pressure, turn a marker, wriggle out of tight spaces, and break lines, either through ball-carrying or quick distribution. Don't get me wrong, TP is still a very good ball-winner when he has to be, but it's not really his super-power and it's not what makes him so effective in that role - it's actually a fairly minor part of his game.

Whether you could call his time here a success is up for debate - it's taken him a while to find a role that he really owns (probably more of a systemic issue than an individual one) and he's spent as much time out injured as he has available, but when he's on it then he really is immense and does the job of two men.

Exactly this.

I've been careful not to say he's been a success here, despite rating him extremely highly, I don't think he has yet.

Between injuries and a dysfunctional system I think he's struggled at times but when we moved to the single pivot (fuck me that sounds noncey as fuck) he really came into his own and the whole team worked through him. It meant pushing Xhaka up a little, which he's fuckin shite at, but he's fuckin shite at everything, but I think this is the way Arteta wants to play. He's alluded to it before. So, hopefully, Partey as the single DM receiving from the defence then having options like Vieira and Odegaard ahead of him giving us far more options/sets/patterns to progress the ball up the field.

Someone like Tielemans also fits into this too...he might even be the Xhaka replacement and Vieira is apparently pretty versatile so could fill in there, for Odegaard or even wide. Purely guessing here, obvs.

[Marc Overmars]

The Saka stuff is just ridiculous. It's pure mob mentality at this point and there's literally zero objectivity around him.

He's the one constant in a pretty inept attack. That's telling on it's own. Not that I attribute it entirely to him but he's a huge part of it.

His decision making is terrible. Very slow to make a decision and when he does it's usually the wrong one. Laca turned to absolute shit but the service (lack of) was a huge part of it.

His directness is abysmal. The number of great chances that gets to Saka who then takes an age to get the ball out of his feet is staggering. I've never seen a player fail to get a shot away as often as he does. Or a player who has so many blocked shots, because he takes so long to get it off. Can you even post clips on this thread. A great example was the home Wolves game. I think Odegaard played him through on the edge of the box there was no one within 10 yards of him. He lost the ball. One example of dozens.

His shooting is the worst I've ever seen in professional fitba. The number of shots he scuffs is actually mental.

People claim he's great but I challenge anyone to actually give me examples of a few games he's dominated. No one can. Like I said, I've watched him play shockingly only to get man of the match and have everyone fawn over him. Legit bizarre.

I get he's an arsenal boy and seems really nice a likeable but people are just blinded by this. It's quite the phenomenon, really.

Anyway...I'll leave that challenge open for anyone who thinks they can tell me when he's actually been as good as people seem to think he is.

I think you’re right to some extent given the nature to overrate and deify young home grown talent. The kid is only 20 though and playing in the most blunt Arsenal team in modern history, the reliance on him to deliver consistently is ridiculous when he’s got so much to learn. Hopefully with 2 or 3 polished signings this summer to reshape the attack we will see a more functional front line.

[mandela8]

I think you’re to some extent given the nature to overrate and deify young home grown talent. The kid is only 20 though and playing in the most blunt Arsenal team in modern history, the reliance on him to deliver consistently is ridiculous when he’s got so much to learn. Hopefully with 2 or 3 polished signings this summer to reshape the attack we will see a more functional front line.

That's actually pretty fair, man. And, despite my criticism of him I clearly want him to make me look stupid as fuck. Getting better players around him, particularly a better striker could help him a lot. I'm not sure how that helps his lack of directness or woeful shooting but it could certainly help with his decision making. Here's hoping.

You've said yourself though, it's the most blunt arsenal team in modern history, which it clearly is, but he's been the one constant in it. People don't seem to reconcile these two facts at all, man. Blows my mind.

His effort going back the way is pathetic anaw. I've naw even mentioned that.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The Saka stuff is just ridiculous. It's pure mob mentality at this point and there's literally zero objectivity around him.

He's the one constant in a pretty inept attack. That's telling on it's own. Not that I attribute it entirely to him but he's a huge part of it.

His decision making is terrible. Very slow to make a decision and when he does it's usually the wrong one. Laca turned to absolute shit but the service (lack of) was a huge part of it.

His directness is abysmal. The number of great chances that gets to Saka who then takes an age to get the ball out of his feet is staggering. I've never seen a player fail to get a shot away as often as he does. Or a player who has so many blocked shots, because he takes so long to get it off. Can you even post clips on this thread. A great example was the home Wolves game. I think Odegaard played him through on the edge of the box there was no one within 10 yards of him. He lost the ball. One example of dozens.

His shooting is the worst I've ever seen in professional fitba. The number of shots he scuffs is actually mental.

People claim he's great but I challenge anyone to actually give me examples of a few games he's dominated. No one can. Like I said, I've watched him play shockingly only to get man of the match and have everyone fawn over him. Legit bizarre.

I get he's an arsenal boy and seems really nice a likeable but people are just blinded by this. It's quite the phenomenon, really.

Anyway...I'll leave that challenge open for anyone who thinks they can tell me when he's actually been as good as people seem to think he is.

You’re entitled to whatever opinion you like, just as everyone else is entitled to think you’re a bit silly

The fact that you are attributing us being blunt in attack to Saka is daft imo. There are two key factors, one we’ve been playing without a consistent goal scorer and two we don’t have any creativity in central midfield (Smith Rowe and Odegaard are not central midfielders they play behind the striker) and this is why I will be up in arms if we don’t sign either Tielemans or an equivalent player…someone who is comfortable taking the ball from defensive positions into offensive position.
Xhaka is too one footed and too often doesn’t show for the ball, Partey has tried this but not comfortable playing through the press…Lokonga I think given time will develop into a player who can do this but we need a finished article.
Saka’s finishing isn’t brilliant at times he’s been known to scuff efforts or guilty of indecision, but there’s a world of difference between that and being shit….if Odegaard provides an assist it’s a result of linkup play with Saka. It’s not Saka that goes missing in games it’s Odegaard, if you want to point fingers at a player for amount of missed chances it would be Martinelli.
For a twenty year old player he’s done remarkably well, we clearly need more up front but to suggest he individually he’s not good enough or is overrated because he’s not single handedly carrying us like Atlas is ridiculous.

[mandela8]

You’re entitled to whatever opinion you like, just as everyone else is entitled to think you’re a bit silly

The fact that you are attributing us being blunt in attack to Saka is daft imo. There are two key factors, one we’ve been playing without a consistent goal scorer and two we don’t have any creativity in central midfield (Smith Rowe and Odegaard are not central midfielders they play behind the striker) and this is why I will be up in arms if we don’t sign either Tielemans or an equivalent player…someone who is comfortable taking the ball from defensive positions into offensive position.
Xhaka is too one footed and too often doesn’t show for the ball, Partey has tried this but not comfortable playing through the press…Lokonga I think given time will develop into a player who can do this but we need a finished article.
Saka’s finishing isn’t brilliant at times he’s been known to scuff efforts or guilty of indecision, but there’s a world of difference between that and being shit….if Odegaard provides an assist it’s a result of linkup play with Saka. It’s not Saka that goes missing in games it’s Odegaard, if you want to point fingers at a player for amount of missed chances it would be Martinelli.
For a twenty year old player he’s done remarkably well, we clearly need more up front but to suggest he individually he’s not good enough or is overrated because he’s not single handedly carrying us like Atlas is ridiculous.

Quite the straw man you've built there. Can tell you have a really small penis.

The key factors in Saka's abysmal shooting, shocking decisions and absence of directness is actually the fact he's shit at shooting, crap at decision making and just lacks fuckin gumption, man. I also strongly suspect that, due to idiotic fitba fans hyping him up beyond all belief, that he thinks he's already made it.

That said, at no point have I attributed all blame to him for our lack of potency. I've clearly said that Laca turned to absolute shit, Martinelli has no end product and ESR just didn't kick on at all after Xmas.

But throughout it all, when Auba was playing and we were shit, when Laca was playing and we were shit and when Martinelli and ESR we're rotating and we were shit Saka was the constant. And he was shit.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Quite the straw man you've built there. Can tell you have a really small penis.

The key factors in Saka's abysmal shooting, shocking decisions and absence of directness is actually the fact he's shit at shooting, crap at decision making and just lacks fuckin gumption, man. I also strongly suspect that, due to idiotic fitba fans hyping him up beyond all belief, that he thinks he's already made it.

That said, at no point have I attributed all blame to him for our lack of potency. I've clearly said that Laca turned to absolute shit, Martinelli has no end product and ESR just didn't kick on at all after Xmas.

But throughout it all, when Auba was playing and we were shit, when Laca was playing and we were shit and when Martinelli and ESR we're rotating and we were shit Saka was the constant. And he was shit.

Ah classic projection with the small knob comment. I’m sorry you can’t satisfy your boyfriend

No I’m disputing the fact that he is shit at shooting, and even if it was his goal tally is good enough at the moment that it wouldn’t really matter. His shots on target percentage is on par with everyone else in the team, and actually has taken on more shots on goal than anyone else around him, has three times as many direct assists as Odegaard.

Again it depends what level you think he should be at, is he at the level of the top players in the premier league? No, will he definitely become one of the top players in the premier league? Again no, at the moment he’s still very much in the potential stage.

And when you keep saying he’s shit? Compared to who, who has consistently performed better than him this season?

No he’s not a player who is going to single handedly win us game week in week out, but he’s the best homegrown talent we’ve produced in a long time, is easily good enough for the England set up and for me the only time he was shit was because he was overused.

But please if you want to keep making empty assertions to make up for your own microcephalic penis feel welcome

[mandela8]

Ah classic projection with the small knob comment. I’m sorry you can’t satisfy your boyfriend

No I’m disputing the fact that he is shit at shooting, and even if it was his goal tally is good enough at the moment that it wouldn’t really matter. His shots on target percentage is on par with everyone else in the team, and actually has taken on more shots on goal than anyone else around him, has three times as many direct assists as Odegaard.

Again it depends what level you think he should be at, is he at the level of the top players in the premier league? No, will he definitely become one of the top players in the premier league? Again no, at the moment he’s still very much in the potential stage.

And when you keep saying he’s shit? Compared to who, who has consistently performed better than him this season?

No he’s not a player who is going to single handedly win us game week in week out, but he’s the best homegrown talent we’ve produced in a long time, is easily good enough for the England set up and for me the only time he was shit was because he was overused.

But please if you want to keep making empty assertions to make up for your own microcephalic penis feel welcome

Struck a nerve with your wee tadger here, eh?

Anyway, glad we agree on him being shite at shooting. Difficult not to though, even for blinkered arsenal fans.

As for comparing him...I'm not. I'm judging him on his merits and how he impacts games. I put a challenge out there to anyone to name a couple of games he's dominated but no one has responded. Weird that, eh?

Regardless, it's others who are comparing him against the rest of the squad. Multiple people stating that "he is our best player", ffs. Anyone who thinks Saka is a better footballer than Ramsdale, Tierney, Tommy, Gabriel, Partey or Odegaard has absolutely no fuckin business commenting on fitba, ffs. Beyond ridiculous. That's objective fact anaw. Naw even a matter of opinion.

I'd actually have Saka behind Martinelli and ESR too, in terms of both current ability and potential, fwiw.

But Saka is the Golden Boy and objectivity be damned.

[IBK]

I think you’re right to some extent given the nature to overrate and deify young home grown talent. The kid is only 20 though and playing in the most blunt Arsenal team in modern history, the reliance on him to deliver consistently is ridiculous when he’s got so much to learn. Hopefully with 2 or 3 polished signings this summer to reshape the attack we will see a more functional front line.

Yep - good comments. My tuppence worth - Saka is popular because he plays eye-catching football - and we all like that 'electric' high-octane stuff. Often the very best footballers are those who might not necessarily do play at 100 miles an hour or do the tricks and flicks - but those who see the game better than anyone else, and understand exactly what they need to do before other players - executing with maximum efficiency. As you say - Saka is also the victim of the idolisation culture you have identified.

But he is a very good player IMO nonetheless - more so when you consider his tender age/inexperience and our lack of senior players (Partey aside) able to dominate the opposition and provide a proper platform around him. We should not be relying on him as much as we do. It's no accident that the likes of Klopp admire him (and reportedly sees Saka as a future replacement for Salah/Mane). I think that Saka would have progressed more had he not been lamentably overplayed and given no protection from the rough housing he receives in every game.

Other players highlighted in the OP:

ESR - I love him but he hasn't progressed since he first made it into the first team. I'm hoping that this is due to injuries/knocks that can be ironed out longer term but he is a worry for me.

Xhaka - everyone on here knows my controversial view that he is better than his reputation amongst many Arsenal fans, a great professional and will normally give you a 7/10. I think its unfair that he has become a lightening rod for those frustrated by our years outside the top 4 and castigated for what he is not rather than what he is...but we have done this to death.

Ben White had a better season than many think...IMO he is burdened by a price tag that has been measured by the standards of 3 years ago, not the current transfer market for British players.

Odegard is a genius - and one of the types of players whose reading of the game is just better than almost anyone else. Can't wait to see him working with a top class striker.

Martinelli is one of those eye-catchers mentioned above, but badly needs to find consistent end product.

Saliba - I worry about him being seen as the next messiah. I really do. We cannot and should not ignore how good our defence was last season when we had our first choice back 5 available.

...and my final comment (again) despite the criticism we finished 2 points off top 4 with the most callow team in the league. My wish is that our team could be evaluated as against reality, not perfection or projection as to what the competition will do.

[I am invisible]

Saka is exceptional for a 20 year old - an absolute dream player for any coach.

It's not just about his output in terms of goals and assists - it's the amount of tactical flex he gives you in a single player without having to make any changes. You need someone to create, he can do that. You need goals, he can do that. You need someone to dribble, he can do that. You need someone to drop into midfield and transition the play, he can do that. You need someone on the left / right / centre - he's got it covered. You need someone to fill in as an 8 in midfield - Saka. You need an emergency LB - Saka. He attacks and defends and does any and every job he's asked to do equally well, and he does it with a fantastic attitude.

Again, this kid is 20 - 20 years old! Give him another 2 or 3 years and, as others have said, put the right support around him (some strong, direct competition so he can occasionally have a rest, a decent striker to finish the chances he creates, a squad with more depth so he doesn't have to keep filling in everywhere, etc) and he'll develop into one of the strongest players in the league.

[IBK]

Saka is exceptional for a 20 year old - an absolute dream player for any coach.

It's not just about his output in terms of goals and assists - it's the amount of tactical flex he gives you in a single player without having to make any changes. You need someone to create, he can do that. You need goals, he can do that. You need someone to dribble, he can do that. You need someone to drop into midfield and transition the play, he can do that. You need someone on the left / right / centre - he's got it covered. You need someone to fill in as an 8 in midfield - Saka. You need an emergency LB - Saka. He attacks and defends and does any and every job he's asked to do equally well, and he does it with a fantastic attitude.

Again, this kid is 20 - 20 years old! Give him another 2 or 3 years and, as others have said, put the right support around him (some strong, direct competition so he can occasionally have a rest, a decent striker to finish the chances he creates, a squad with more depth so he doesn't have to keep filling in everywhere, etc) and he'll develop into one of the strongest players in the league.

Yep - agree with all that :good:

[mandela8]

Saka is exceptional for a 20 year old - an absolute dream player for any coach.

It's not just about his output in terms of goals and assists - it's the amount of tactical flex he gives you in a single player without having to make any changes. You need someone to create, he can do that. You need goals, he can do that. You need someone to dribble, he can do that. You need someone to drop into midfield and transition the play, he can do that. You need someone on the left / right / centre - he's got it covered. You need someone to fill in as an 8 in midfield - Saka. You need an emergency LB - Saka. He attacks and defends and does any and every job he's asked to do equally well, and he does it with a fantastic attitude.

Again, this kid is 20 - 20 years old! Give him another 2 or 3 years and, as others have said, put the right support around him (some strong, direct competition so he can occasionally have a rest, a decent striker to finish the chances he creates, a squad with more depth so he doesn't have to keep filling in everywhere, etc) and he'll develop into one of the strongest players in the league.

An absolutely woeful post.

The worst I've seen since I came back.

What I will say is this though, Saka's best, and only consistent, performances came at LB. He's much better suited to that position, where the game can be far more linear.

[mandela8]

Yep - good comments. My tuppence worth - Saka is popular because he plays eye-catching football - and we all like that 'electric' high-octane stuff. Often the very best footballers are those who might not necessarily do play at 100 miles an hour or do the tricks and flicks - but those who see the game better than anyone else, and understand exactly what they need to do before other players - executing with maximum efficiency. As you say - Saka is also the victim of the idolisation culture you have identified.

But he is a very good player IMO nonetheless - more so when you consider his tender age/inexperience and our lack of senior players (Partey aside) able to dominate the opposition and provide a proper platform around him. We should not be relying on him as much as we do. It's no accident that the likes of Klopp admire him (and reportedly sees Saka as a future replacement for Salah/Mane). I think that Saka would have progressed more had he not been lamentably overplayed and given no protection from the rough housing he receives in every game.

Other players highlighted in the OP:

ESR - I love him but he hasn't progressed since he first made it into the first team. I'm hoping that this is due to injuries/knocks that can be ironed out longer term but he is a worry for me.

Xhaka - everyone on here knows my controversial view that he is better than his reputation amongst many Arsenal fans, a great professional and will normally give you a 7/10. I think its unfair that he has become a lightening rod for those frustrated by our years outside the top 4 and castigated for what he is not rather than what he is...but we have done this to death.

Ben White had a better season than many think...IMO he is burdened by a price tag that has been measured by the standards of 3 years ago, not the current transfer market for British players.

Odegard is a genius - and one of the types of players whose reading of the game is just better than almost anyone else. Can't wait to see him working with a top class striker.

Martinelli is one of those eye-catchers mentioned above, but badly needs to find consistent end product.

Saliba - I worry about him being seen as the next messiah. I really do. We cannot and should not ignore how good our defence was last season when we had our first choice back 5 available.

...and my final comment (again) despite the criticism we finished 2 points off top 4 with the most callow team in the league. My wish is that our team could be evaluated as against reality, not perfection or projection as to what the competition will do.

Some...intradesting opinions there.

Xhaka being the strangest one. 7/10??? We clearly rate the game entirely differently. Even when Xhaka does nothing wrong (which is always a fear with him, which says it all) he does very little right/well.

He's one of these insignificant players. Everything he does is junk. Takes the balls plays it short to the side or backwards. Almost all of his involvements could be bypassed by the player who gives the ball to Xhaka simply giving it to the player Xhaka then gives it to. That's how easy it would be to replicate Xhaka's contribution to the team.

He's also woeful defensively, letting players run off him more than any other CM I've ever seen.

Elneny is exactly the same with his cowardly possession of the ball, but he's slightly more disciplined defensively.

[mandela8]

Saka is exceptional for a 20 year old - an absolute dream player for any coach.

It's not just about his output in terms of goals and assists - it's the amount of tactical flex he gives you in a single player without having to make any changes. You need someone to create, he can do that. You need goals, he can do that. You need someone to dribble, he can do that. You need someone to drop into midfield and transition the play, he can do that. You need someone on the left / right / centre - he's got it covered. You need someone to fill in as an 8 in midfield - Saka. You need an emergency LB - Saka. He attacks and defends and does any and every job he's asked to do equally well, and he does it with a fantastic attitude.

Again, this kid is 20 - 20 years old! Give him another 2 or 3 years and, as others have said, put the right support around him (some strong, direct competition so he can occasionally have a rest, a decent striker to finish the chances he creates, a squad with more depth so he doesn't have to keep filling in everywhere, etc) and he'll develop into one of the strongest players in the league.

Fuck me, I have to come back to this post, it's THAT fuckin bad, man.

Pure fanboyism at it's absolute worst. I've no idea who you are but if I'm told you're 11 years old I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest, tbh.

I'd still give you a slap though, for your own good.

[KSE Comedy Club]

intradesting

Interesting spelling.

If I'm told you are 11 years old, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest, tbh.

[I am invisible]

Fuck me, I have to come back to this post, it's THAT fuckin bad, man.

Pure fanboyism at it's absolute worst. I've no idea who you are but if I'm told you're 11 years old I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest, tbh.

I'd still give you a slap though, for your own good.

Pepe... is that you?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Struck a nerve with your wee tadger here, eh?

Anyway, glad we agree on him being shite at shooting. Difficult not to though, even for blinkered arsenal fans.

As for comparing him...I'm not. I'm judging him on his merits and how he impacts games. I put a challenge out there to anyone to name a couple of games he's dominated but no one has responded. Weird that, eh?

Regardless, it's others who are comparing him against the rest of the squad. Multiple people stating that "he is our best player", ffs. Anyone who thinks Saka is a better footballer than Ramsdale, Tierney, Tommy, Gabriel, Partey or Odegaard has absolutely no fuckin business commenting on fitba, ffs. Beyond ridiculous. That's objective fact anaw. Naw even a matter of opinion.

I'd actually have Saka behind Martinelli and ESR too, in terms of both current ability and potential, fwiw.

But Saka is the Golden Boy and objectivity be damned.

I think there are players who get overhyped by the fan base. Ramsey for example was the bane of my existence because he summed up a midfield that lacked dynamism, no pace, poor first touch….passing not brilliant.

Yes I do think Saka is our best player and is better than the players you mentioned, but again it feels odd saying that because not comparing like for like. I don’t think there is a single player that has individually won us a game in the way a Henry or Van Persie did. But unlike you I would take Saka over Pepe in the position they play.

Pepe is the closest player I’ve ever seen to Laurent Robert in his application, and believe me that’s not a positive comparison. Robert was capable of excellent football but he was capable of being an utter prick and doing nothing. Pepe has an awful first touch, he doesn’t track back and it’s a 50/50 as to whether he shows for the ball at all. He’s a luxury player, but not one who’s grit and determination wins you games.

I think Arteta has made a lot of mistakes with not rotating the squad last season but Pepe just simply does not give a fuck

Saka pesters defenders, he’s always there to receive a pass and frankly I think he actually makes Odegaard look better than he is.

I agree with you about there being a tendency towards orthodoxy amongst the fan base I just think you’re utterly wrong on this.

I like Martinelli and Smith Rowe, I think Martinelli has especially been frustrated by putting in service to Lacazette with him no where to be seen. Smith Rowe frankly looks like he needs to lose a bit of weight, I think he’s got a good footballing brain but he has looked unfit for a while, plus not helped by Arteta playing him and Odegaard in the same team.

[mandela8]

Interesting spelling.

If I'm told you are 11 years old, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest, tbh.

Nice comeback.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Nice comeback.

:tiphat:

[mandela8]

I think there are players who get overhyped by the fan base. Ramsey for example was the bane of my existence because he summed up a midfield that lacked dynamism, no pace, poor first touch….passing not brilliant.

Yes I do think Saka is our best player and is better than the players you mentioned, but again it feels odd saying that because not comparing like for like. I don’t think there is a single player that has individually won us a game in the way a Henry or Van Persie did. But unlike you I would take Saka over Pepe in the position they play.

Pepe is the closest player I’ve ever seen to Laurent Robert in his application, and believe me that’s not a positive comparison. Robert was capable of excellent football but he was capable of being an utter prick and doing nothing. Pepe has an awful first touch, he doesn’t track back and it’s a 50/50 as to whether he shows for the ball at all. He’s a luxury player, but not one who’s grit and determination wins you games.

I think Arteta has made a lot of mistakes with not rotating the squad last season but Pepe just simply does not give a fuck

Saka pesters defenders, he’s always there to receive a pass and frankly I think he actually makes Odegaard look better than he is.

I agree with you about there being a tendency towards orthodoxy amongst the fan base I just think you’re utterly wrong on this.

I like Martinelli and Smith Rowe, I think Martinelli has especially been frustrated by putting in service to Lacazette with him no where to be seen. Smith Rowe frankly looks like he needs to lose a bit of weight, I think he’s got a good footballing brain but he has looked unfit for a while, plus not helped by Arteta playing him and Odegaard in the same team.

We actually have a lot of common ground, tbh. Ramsey was another fan favorite but he couldn't play a single position.

Also agree on Martinelli and ESR.

On Pepe I think he stopped giving a fuck when Arteta started messing him about...not that I think he stopped caring, as such, but I know exactly what you mean and how it could be perceived as such.

On Saka you're just plain wrong though, man. I don't think you actually think he's our best player either. That's just too ridiculous. He's your favorite player, not the best player. Comments like he always shows for the ball are mind blowing to me because that's one of my biggest gripes with him. He can and does disappear from games constantly and is happy just hanging out on the line, behind an opposition player. As for his impact on Odegaard...it's the opposite way about. If Odegaard had someone other than Saka there he'd have double the assists he had. Sala doesn't pres well and his defensive efforts are often lamentable, ffs. I'm not even sure who you're watching, man. Just utterly blinded by bias/favoritism, maybe? I'd have thought even his biggest, objective, fans would sees the glaring issues in his game.

Can you even tell me a couple of games you thought he was really good in?

[mandela8]

I think there are players who get overhyped by the fan base. Ramsey for example was the bane of my existence because he summed up a midfield that lacked dynamism, no pace, poor first touch….passing not brilliant.

Yes I do think Saka is our best player and is better than the players you mentioned, but again it feels odd saying that because not comparing like for like. I don’t think there is a single player that has individually won us a game in the way a Henry or Van Persie did. But unlike you I would take Saka over Pepe in the position they play.

Pepe is the closest player I’ve ever seen to Laurent Robert in his application, and believe me that’s not a positive comparison. Robert was capable of excellent football but he was capable of being an utter prick and doing nothing. Pepe has an awful first touch, he doesn’t track back and it’s a 50/50 as to whether he shows for the ball at all. He’s a luxury player, but not one who’s grit and determination wins you games.

I think Arteta has made a lot of mistakes with not rotating the squad last season but Pepe just simply does not give a fuck

Saka pesters defenders, he’s always there to receive a pass and frankly I think he actually makes Odegaard look better than he is.

I agree with you about there being a tendency towards orthodoxy amongst the fan base I just think you’re utterly wrong on this.

I like Martinelli and Smith Rowe, I think Martinelli has especially been frustrated by putting in service to Lacazette with him no where to be seen. Smith Rowe frankly looks like he needs to lose a bit of weight, I think he’s got a good footballing brain but he has looked unfit for a while, plus not helped by Arteta playing him and Odegaard in the same team.

We actually have a lot of common ground, tbh. Ramsey was another fan favorite but he couldn't play a single position.

Also agree on Martinelli and ESR.

On Pepe I think he stopped giving a fuck when Arteta started messing him about...not that I think he stopped caring, as such, but I know exactly what you mean and how it could be perceived as such.

On Saka you're just plain wrong though, man. I don't think you actually think he's our best player either. That's just too ridiculous. He's your favorite player, not the best player. Comments like he always shows for the ball are mind blowing to me because that's one of my biggest gripes with him. He can and does disappear from games constantly and is happy just hanging out on the line, behind an opposition player. As for his impact on Odegaard...it's the opposite way about. If Odegaard had someone other than Saka there he'd have double the assists he had. Sala doesn't pres well and his defensive efforts are often lamentable, ffs. I'm not even sure who you're watching, man. Just utterly blinded by bias/favoritism, maybe? I'd have thought even his biggest, objective, fans would sees the glaring issues in his game.

Can you even tell me a couple of games you thought he was really good in?

[HCZ_Reborn]

We actually have a lot of common ground, tbh. Ramsey was another fan favorite but he couldn't play a single position.

Also agree on Martinelli and ESR.

On Pepe I think he stopped giving a fuck when Arteta started messing him about...not that I think he stopped caring, as such, but I know exactly what you mean and how it could be perceived as such.

On Saka you're just plain wrong though, man. I don't think you actually think he's our best player either. That's just too ridiculous. He's your favorite player, not the best player. Comments like he always shows for the ball are mind blowing to me because that's one of my biggest gripes with him. He can and does disappear from games constantly and is happy just hanging out on the line, behind an opposition player. As for his impact on Odegaard...it's the opposite way about. If Odegaard had someone other than Saka there he'd have double the assists he had. Sala doesn't pres well and his defensive efforts are often lamentable, ffs. I'm not even sure who you're watching, man. Just utterly blinded by bias/favoritism, maybe? I'd have thought even his biggest, objective, fans would sees the glaring issues in his game.

Can you even tell me a couple of games you thought he was really good in?

I don’t have favourite players, I’m not a 12 year old collecting panini stickers

Yes I do think he’s our best player. It’s got nothing to do with whether I think he’s a nice lad (because I have absolutely no idea if he is….I know he’s a bit of a bible basher but that’s it)

So it’s nothing to do with favouritism. To be honest it would easier to name games where he was poor and I think he wasn’t great towards the end of the season as he looked like he needed to be rested

But I think he absolutely tormented Spurs and City in the games at the Emirates

Leeds away, first half against Leicester away, Villa away also particularly stand out for me

I think it’s lazy to blame Pepe on Arteta. With the exception of his cameo against Wolves, the guy has done nothing when brought on. Why on earth would you not just put on a performance just to prove Arteta wrong, but he looks disinterested. Lazy passes, heavy first touches, doesn’t show for the ball and often just gives the ball away.

This was a player that we all had high expectations from because of how much we paid Lille for him, and I’ve seen nothing that makes me think Arteta was wrong to drop him.

He can dribble better than others in the team (when he feels like it) but given that three years ago Iwobi was the only player we had that could dribble it’s a low bar to get over.

Saka can dribble, he is technically good, decent first touch, excellent work rate and has come good in terms of goal scoring. And I think he has been the most consistent performer for us this season gone

[mandela8]

I don’t have favourite players, I’m not a 12 year old collecting panini stickers

Yes I do think he’s our best player. It’s got nothing to do with whether I think he’s a nice lad (because I have absolutely no idea if he is….I know he’s a bit of a bible basher but that’s it)

So it’s nothing to do with favouritism. To be honest it would easier to name games where he was poor and I think he wasn’t great towards the end of the season as he looked like he needed to be rested

But I think he absolutely tormented Spurs and City in the games at the Emirates

Leeds away, first half against Leicester away, Villa away also particularly stand out for me

I think it’s lazy to blame Pepe on Arteta. With the exception of his cameo against Wolves, the guy has done nothing when brought on. Why on earth would you not just put on a performance just to prove Arteta wrong, but he looks disinterested. Lazy passes, heavy first touches, doesn’t show for the ball and often just gives the ball away.

This was a player that we all had high expectations from because of how much we paid Lille for him, and I’ve seen nothing that makes me think Arteta was wrong to drop him.

He can dribble better than others in the team (when he feels like it) but given that three years ago Iwobi was the only player we had that could dribble it’s a low bar to get over.

Saka can dribble, he is technically good, decent first touch, excellent work rate and has come good in terms of goal scoring. And I think he has been the most consistent performer for us this season gone

Favouritism.

Exactly as I suspected.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Favouritism.

Exactly as I suspected.

Bit of a silly arse aren’t you?

Nah the last player there was at Arsenal who even vaguely approached being my favourite was Flamini. Not because he was any good, it was just he seemed to take perverse pride in felling people, would put in a clumsy tackle to halt an attack and then pump his fist at the crowd like he’d scored a goal. It wasn’t Stoke level thuggery, but he took genuine enjoyment in introducing people to the turf.
I had a soft spot for Rosicky even though arguably he was crocked and a more ruthless club would have moved him on years ago but I’d been at the game when he scored those two long range howitzers at Liverpool in the fa cup.

I just think Saka is a genuinely good performer who menaces defences

The other players you’ve mentioned with the exception of Ramsdale have been distinctly hit and miss at times

Ben White was a decent signing because he’s the only centre back we have who is comfortable on the ball but his positional play in defence can be suspect and he’s too easily beaten in the air

Partey by his own admission has been shit at times. I wish he’d stopped going for goal constantly seems determined to score a screamer but his two goals for us have come from corners. I think this partly comes down to the lack of protection he gets from Xhaka but he’s not great at dealing with the high press either.

Odegaard goes missing far more often than Saka, like Ozil he’s no interest in dropping deep to receive the ball and a lot of his best attacking moves comes from link up play with Saka.

I don’t think Saka is head and shoulders better than everyone around him because we don’t have that stand out player in the team anymore. But I think he’s by far our most consistent performer

[mandela8]

Bit of a silly arse aren’t you?

Nah the last player there was at Arsenal who even vaguely approached being my favourite was Flamini. Not because he was any good, it was just he seemed to take perverse pride in felling people, would put in a clumsy tackle to halt an attack and then pump his fist at the crowd like he’d scored a goal. It wasn’t Stoke level thuggery, but he took genuine enjoyment in introducing people to the turf.
I had a soft spot for Rosicky even though arguably he was crocked and a more ruthless club would have moved him on years ago but I’d been at the game when he scored those two long range howitzers at Liverpool in the fa cup.

I just think Saka is a genuinely good performer who menaces defences

The other players you’ve mentioned with the exception of Ramsdale have been distinctly hit and miss at times

Ben White was a decent signing because he’s the only centre back we have who is comfortable on the ball but his positional play in defence can be suspect and he’s too easily beaten in the air

Partey by his own admission has been shit at times. I wish he’d stopped going for goal constantly seems determined to score a screamer but his two goals for us have come from corners. I think this partly comes down to the lack of protection he gets from Xhaka but he’s not great at dealing with the high press either.

Odegaard goes missing far more often than Saka, like Ozil he’s no interest in dropping deep to receive the ball and a lot of his best attacking moves comes from link up play with Saka.

I don’t think Saka is head and shoulders better than everyone around him because we don’t have that stand out player in the team anymore. But I think he’s by far our most consistent performer

Wilshire was my last real favorite, but as I said earlier, I have an unexplainable soft spot for Holding.

I think Ramsdale and Gabriel were consistently good. They both had a couple of dodgy moments but that's expected from players of their age and position. They were the best players, by a distance for me. Then Odegaard. Tierney, Tommy and Partey we're out too often to be considered, unfortunately. And on Partey, I actually agree he hasn't been as good as he can be. He's still a class apart from anyone in the squad though and he was demonstrating that pretty consistently before his last injury...for a few months he was showing what he was really about. Strange that a player so robust at Atletico hasnt been able to stay fit at Arsenal.

Saka is consistent. I'll give you that. Consistently shit though. Odegaard plays on the right hand side so it's obvious he'll engage more with Saka. That's also partly why we're imbalanced and ESR and Martinelli are often exposed as they rarely have CM support. If anything this is another black mark against Saka. He has Odegaard in there occupying space and opposition for him and he fails to exploit it.

White just seems too lightweight for me but more than that, the frequency I which he puts his foot on top of the ball to look for a pass drives me fuckin mental. The pace and momentum of the team (which is shit as it is) grinds to a complete halt when he has the ball.

[IBK]

Some...intradesting opinions there.

Xhaka being the strangest one. 7/10??? We clearly rate the game entirely differently. Even when Xhaka does nothing wrong (which is always a fear with him, which says it all) he does very little right/well.

He's one of these insignificant players. Everything he does is junk. Takes the balls plays it short to the side or backwards. Almost all of his involvements could be bypassed by the player who gives the ball to Xhaka simply giving it to the player Xhaka then gives it to. That's how easy it would be to replicate Xhaka's contribution to the team.

He's also woeful defensively, letting players run off him more than any other CM I've ever seen.

Elneny is exactly the same with his cowardly possession of the ball, but he's slightly more disciplined defensively.

Props to you for trying to stimulate debate. Alls I'll say is that we are all entitled to our opinions, and I'm not afraid to swim against the tide.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Props to you for trying to stimulate debate. Alls I'll say is that we are all entitled to our opinions, and I'm not afraid to swim against the tide.

I have to say I disagree with him completely about Saka but I 100% agree with him about Xhaka

Defensively he’s a total liability. Plus
He’s slow, one footed and is incredibly casual in possession.

Tielemans would have been an upgrade on him, not the quickest but a good passer of the ball and a good dribbler

I fear Arteta is being galaxy brained by overlooking this. Saw a newspaper article today that said he was going to rely on Lokonga being the next yaya Toure…well first off good luck with that I don’t think he’s got the upper body strength for that.

And also if you felt that way about him, why did you hardly play him after autumn.

I watched him at the Emirates against Brighton, he started off dreadfully (though I think he was chucked in at the deep end) but actually grew into the game and was making runs from deep and drawing fouls from Brighton. I’m not sure how good he is, I’ve seen worse technically but also seen better. But whilst he’s a youngster he’s not a kid, he’s 23 in October and if he’s going to make it he needs to start playing regularly.

[mandela8]

Props to you for trying to stimulate debate. Alls I'll say is that we are all entitled to our opinions, and I'm not afraid to swim against the tide.

For sure, man.

I'm clearly in the minority about Saka, man.

I came back cos I love taking about fitba and arsenal but if we all agreed it'd be shit so I'm always glad of dissenting views, man.

[IBK]

For sure, man.

I'm clearly in the minority about Saka, man.

I came back cos I love taking about fitba and arsenal but if we all agreed it'd be shit so I'm always glad of dissenting views, man.

:good:

[mandela8]

What's the consensus on Jesus then?

I just can't get excited about it, man.

Man City went an entire season as the team without a center forward now we're signing the guy who couldn't even get recognized as their striker as our number 9.

Probably doesn't matter really but the bigger concern I have is we bid for Vlahovic and and now in for Jesus. Two very different players...just doesn't strike me as much of a strategy here.

I do think Jesus is a good player, don't get me wrong...I just don't see the sense in it. Him, Nketiah and Balagun are all similar stature and mould/style.

[HCZ_Reborn]

What's the consensus on Jesus then?

I just can't get excited about it, man.

Man City went an entire season as the team without a center forward now we're signing the guy who couldn't even get recognized as their striker as our number 9.

Probably doesn't matter really but the bigger concern I have is we bid for Vlahovic and and now in for Jesus. Two very different players...just doesn't strike me as much of a strategy here.

I do think Jesus is a good player, don't get me wrong...I just don't see the sense in it. Him, Nketiah and Balagun are all similar stature and mould/style.

Don’t disagree, hard to get too excited by a player who had some of the worlds best midfielders laying opportunities on a plate for him but still a very meagre return bolstered by one game against Watford

Like you say he’s decent but it wouldn’t be a bad idea to have a striker who carries some aerial threat.

Fuck knows who that would be

[Marc Overmars]

Maybe he suffered from never being considered the main man? Would be interesting to see what he’d do if playing 90mins every week.

But yeah agree with the sentiment that it isn’t exactly the stellar striker in the mould we had hoped for, but you never know, change of scenery might help him. Especially with the World Cup approaching.

[I am invisible]

I’ve seen a few of his heat maps for the season and he actually spent the vast majority of his minutes glued to the right, so he was probably one of the players doing the providing in that city side. And he would have been in and out of the side, the way Pep likes to rotate.

I don’t know… I think I’m excited about this, but I’m not really sure why? Maybe it’s because so many of our best strikers in the past, like Henry and van Persie, we’re in-obvious options? Or maybe it’s just the thought of having a striker who actually, you know… runs and moves and gets anywhere near the box!

There’s not a lot in his raw numbers to suggest that he’ll definitely be the elite goal-scorer we need - that’s going to require a bit of a leap of faith - but he’s certainly a very strong creator and dribbler, and he’s an elite presser, so I think he’ll fit right in with what we’ve been building. At the very least I think the surrounding attackers will see a lot of benefit from playing with him.

That Watford game was a weird one - on the one hand it padded his stats, and without those goals his tally would have been poor, but on the other I think that any player who can score 4 goals in a single game must have some killer instinct in them somewhere?

I guess the fact that he’s PL-ready and Arteta-ready is something else he has going for him.

[WMUG]

Like you say he’s decent but it wouldn’t be a bad idea to have a striker who carries some aerial threat.

Fuck knows who that would be

Na, na, na, nana nana!

[cricketsi]

Just to weight in on Saka...

He is clearly a high quality player. What really makes him stand out is his consistency at such a young age. It's not coincidence he became not only a key player for Arsenal, but also for England in the Euros last year. In international tournament football, Southgate clearly valued having somebody he knew would not let him down. Again, that's very rare for such a young player. I'd say 90% of his games are a 7/10 or above, and he never really drops a clanger. Year on year he appears to be adding more productivity. Now, that's not to say there isn't a tendency to overrate him somewhat, because we're buying into not only what he is right now, but what we think he can become. On top of that he seems a really nice young man and has come through our own academy, so it's inevitable there will be some extra fondness for him. When we're scratching around looking for positives at times with it being relatively lean times as an Arsenal fan, then of course it might not take as much to get us excited, but nonetheless, he's a very good player in his own right.

I looked up for comparison the stats for some of the more productive wide forwards from the past 20 years (just a random selection of ones that came to mind, not trying to cherry pick). Here's their numbers in the season in which they turned 20, as Saka did this past season (Appearances, Goals, Assists)


Bukayo Saka - Apps: 43, G: 12, A: 7
Cristiano Ronaldo - Apps: 50, G: 9, A: 9
Arjen Robben - Apps: 34, G: 8, A: 14 (in Eredivisie)
Franck Ribery - not yet playing senior football
Sadio Mané - Apps: 19, G: 1, A: 1 (in Ligue 2)
Mohamed Salah: Apps: 15, G: 7, A: 3 (in Egyptian PL)
Raheem Sterling: Apps: 52, G: 11, A: 10
Serge Gnabry - not yet playing senior football
Kingsley Coman: Apps 37, G: 6, A: 12
Heung-Min Son: Apps: 34, G: 12, A:2

Basically, he compares well there with some very useful players. I think possibly the only wingers who blow him out of the water in terms of numbers at the same age are Neymar and Messi. Every player's development curve varies, and the hope is that he continues on his current trajectory. If it turned out he peaked aged 20, then sure, he'd definitely be viewed as overhyped in hindsight.

Really, the biggest worry is that he's being overburdened too soon, and whether that will take a toll on his body in the longer term. Some competition for him will be beneficial for this as well as encouraging him to raise his game further to get to that next level.

[mandela8]

Just to weight in on Saka...

He is clearly a high quality player. What really makes him stand out is his consistency at such a young age. It's not coincidence he became not only a key player for Arsenal, but also for England in the Euros last year. In international tournament football, Southgate clearly valued having somebody he knew would not let him down. Again, that's very rare for such a young player. I'd say 90% of his games are a 7/10 or above, and he never really drops a clanger. Year on year he appears to be adding more productivity. Now, that's not to say there isn't a tendency to overrate him somewhat, because we're buying into not only what he is right now, but what we think he can become. On top of that he seems a really nice young man and has come through our own academy, so it's inevitable there will be some extra fondness for him. When we're scratching around looking for positives at times with it being relatively lean times as an Arsenal fan, then of course it might not take as much to get us excited, but nonetheless, he's a very good player in his own right.

I looked up for comparison the stats for some of the more productive wide forwards from the past 20 years (just a random selection of ones that came to mind, not trying to cherry pick). Here's their numbers in the season in which they turned 20, as Saka did this past season (Appearances, Goals, Assists)


Bukayo Saka - Apps: 43, G: 12, A: 7
Cristiano Ronaldo - Apps: 50, G: 9, A: 9
Arjen Robben - Apps: 34, G: 8, A: 14 (in Eredivisie)
Franck Ribery - not yet playing senior football
Sadio Mané - Apps: 19, G: 1, A: 1 (in Ligue 2)
Mohamed Salah: Apps: 15, G: 7, A: 3 (in Egyptian PL)
Raheem Sterling: Apps: 52, G: 11, A: 10
Serge Gnabry - not yet playing senior football
Kingsley Coman: Apps 37, G: 6, A: 12
Heung-Min Son: Apps: 34, G: 12, A:2

Basically, he compares well there with some very useful players. I think possibly the only wingers who blow him out of the water in terms of numbers at the same age are Neymar and Messi. Every player's development curve varies, and the hope is that he continues on his current trajectory. If it turned out he peaked aged 20, then sure, he'd definitely be viewed as overhyped in hindsight.

Really, the biggest worry is that he's being overburdened too soon, and whether that will take a toll on his body in the longer term. Some competition for him will be beneficial for this as well as encouraging him to raise his game further to get to that next level.

Laughable.

Suggesting he averages a 7 or over is so utterly fuckin ridiculous I'm not even sure how to respond. He usually starts a game brightest then disappears for most of it.
If that's a 7 then we're absolutely fucked, ffs.

I'll agree that him also fooling an idiot like Southgate is amazing.

I genuinely hope he plays every minute for England.

[mandela8]

I’ve seen a few of his heat maps for the season and he actually spent the vast majority of his minutes glued to the right, so he was probably one of the players doing the providing in that city side. And he would have been in and out of the side, the way Pep likes to rotate.

I don’t know… I think I’m excited about this, but I’m not really sure why? Maybe it’s because so many of our best strikers in the past, like Henry and van Persie, we’re in-obvious options? Or maybe it’s just the thought of having a striker who actually, you know… runs and moves and gets anywhere near the box!

There’s not a lot in his raw numbers to suggest that he’ll definitely be the elite goal-scorer we need - that’s going to require a bit of a leap of faith - but he’s certainly a very strong creator and dribbler, and he’s an elite presser, so I think he’ll fit right in with what we’ve been building. At the very least I think the surrounding attackers will see a lot of benefit from playing with him.

That Watford game was a weird one - on the one hand it padded his stats, and without those goals his tally would have been poor, but on the other I think that any player who can score 4 goals in a single game must have some killer instinct in them somewhere?

I guess the fact that he’s PL-ready and Arteta-ready is something else he has going for him.

Interesting post, man.

I think that's the optimistic angle we're all clinging to here, tbh.
Maybe all he needs is to be 'the man' and he'll rise to that. He also seems to have a lot of those intangible and mental characteristics that top players have too.

It's the move from Vlahovic to him that's throwing me. They're so different I just can't understand the strategy, at all.

[mandela8]

What I will say, in the intradest of fairness, on Saka is that if he could shoot or was able to be more direct/decisive then he could/should have had a 20+ goal season last year. He certainly had the opportunities. And these are the types of skills that do develop towards the end of the development cycle for most attacking players.

Hopefully he can kick on but we really need to stop the ridiculousness around him, man. If anything it's probably detrimental to him because if he thinks he's putting in 7/10s every weeks he's thinking he's made it, which we've seen evidence of with some of his effort at times, particularly defensively, when he has a long, long way to go.

[cricketsi]

Laughable.

Suggesting he averages a 7 or over is so utterly fuckin ridiculous I'm not even sure how to respond. He usually starts a game brightest then disappears for most of it.
If that's a 7 then we're absolutely fucked, ffs.

I'll agree that him also fooling an idiot like Southgate is amazing.

I genuinely hope he plays every minute for England.

It might be ridiculous in your opinion, but your hyperbolic response is clearly that.

Saka started 3 games for England at Euro 2020. His average scores on the BBC player ratings, i.e. mostly not from Arsenal fans, were 7.74, 7.04 and 6.53. Sky Sports gave him 8/10 for the tournament, The Independent gave him 7.5/10, Evening Standard 8/10, Mirror 8/10, etc.

There might be calibration differences - some people might think a rating of 4/10 is a baseline average, others a 6/10, so maybe your own personal quantitative measure of performance may vary.

I think the majority of Arsenal fans would agree he looked as though he was suffering from burn out by the end of last season. It would be foolish not to take that into account, and your observation that he fades as games go on probably reflect the fact he's overplayed - hence the club clearly looking at a RW addition in the transfer market. If he's allowed a decent rest and used appropriately, then hopefully you'll end up seeing him in the same light as most of the rest of us.

[mandela8]

It might be ridiculous in your opinion, but your hyperbolic response is clearly that.

Saka started 3 games for England at Euro 2020. His average scores on the BBC player ratings, i.e. mostly not from Arsenal fans, were 7.74, 7.04 and 6.53. Sky Sports gave him 8/10 for the tournament, The Independent gave him 7.5/10, Evening Standard 8/10, Mirror 8/10, etc.

There might be calibration differences - some people might think a rating of 4/10 is a baseline average, others a 6/10, so maybe your own personal quantitative measure of performance may vary.

I think the majority of Arsenal fans would agree he looked as though he was suffering from burn out by the end of last season. It would be foolish not to take that into account, and your observation that he fades as games go on probably reflect the fact he's overplayed - hence the club clearly looking at a RW addition in the transfer market. If he's allowed a decent rest and used appropriately, then hopefully you'll end up seeing him in the same light as most of the rest of us.

As I said, I've watched him play utter shit only to get MOM and an 8/10. There's some mental hype/agenda around him that most seems to have just bought into. It's fuckin weird and, frankly, doesn't do him any favors long term, imo (= fact).

As for him burning out towards the end of the season. I didn't notice that at all. I think people were actually just starting to realize that he is a total hype job at this point and rather than admit they were wrong/bought into the nonsense used fatigue as the excuse.

He was consistently poor for the entire season.

[Gooner23]

As I said, I've watched him play utter shit only to get MOM and an 8/10. There's some mental hype/agenda around him that most seems to have just bought into. It's fuckin weird and, frankly, doesn't do him any favors long term, imo (= fact).

As for him burning out towards the end of the season. I didn't notice that at all. I think people were actually just starting to realize that he is a total hype job at this point and rather than admit they were wrong/bought into the nonsense used fatigue as the excuse.

He was consistently poor for the entire season.

Consistently poor for the entire season? Don't be ridiculous.

[mandela8]

Consistently poor for the entire season? Don't be ridiculous.

I opened a challenge for anyone to tell me the games he was good in.

One person attempted but I stopped reading when they said summin like "terrorized Man City..." :haha:

[I am invisible]

Interesting post, man.

I think that's the optimistic angle we're all clinging to here, tbh.
Maybe all he needs is to be 'the man' and he'll rise to that. He also seems to have a lot of those intangible and mental characteristics that top players have too...
It’s absolutely the optimistic angle, but that’s all part of the fun of this time of year! You get a couple of brief months where you get to live in fantasy and pretend that we’re going to be amazing before stinking reality kicks in again - enjoy it while you can!



…It's the move from Vlahovic to him that's throwing me. They're so different I just can't understand the strategy, at all.

Yeah, I’ve mentioned the same thing several times since January - we bid for Abraham last summer, then Vlahovic in Jan, then enquired about Isak when that failed so it looked very much like there was a clear physical profile we were after. Maybe it was never anything but coincidence, though, and those three targets had more to do with availability than the fact that they’re all 6’3 / 6’4?

[I am invisible]

Just out of interest, who are the alternatives to Jesus that everyone is thinking of? Feels like there’s a bit of shortage of quality CFs out there at the moment.

[IBK]

Just out of interest, who are the alternatives to Jesus that everyone is thinking of? Feels like there’s a bit of shortage of quality CFs out there at the moment.

I'd agree with you there. There is also the supply and demand angle. Percieved top strikers are unbelievably expensive, and like it or not, AFC has to think about all round team strength. We have been burnt by making marquee signings who have not moved the dial for us, and I am pleased that we seem to be trying to be smart, and buy good talent at prices that allow us to still invest in other areas. I have no doubt that this is a big factor directing our pursuit of Jesus.

[mandela8]

All good points, You Are Invisible and IBS.

I'm struggling to think of alternatives. Other than Isak (never seen play) and Osinheim who looks absolutely legit but would no doubt cost more than Arsenal would pay. Nkunko has just renewed his contract...Lewa probably wouldn't be intradested either.

Striker isn't the kinda position you get a Vieira type signing either, tbh.

[I am invisible]

All good points, You Are Invisible and IBS.

I'm struggling to think of alternatives. Other than Isak (never seen play) and Osinheim who looks absolutely legit but would no doubt cost more than Arsenal would pay. Nkunko has just renewed his contract...Lewa probably wouldn't be intradested either.

Striker isn't the kinda position you get a Vieira type signing either, tbh.
There might be a part-x deal to be done with Roma for Abraham, if they still want Xhaka and Bellerin? Chuck in Torreira too if wants to stay in Italy! I have a feeling they’ll want an obscene amount of cash on top of that too, though.

Beyond that and the guys you mention I’m drawing a blank.

[IBK]

There's also the minimisation of risk element here. Jesus may not tick all of the boxes - particularly given what appears to be the latest trend to big physical strikers who can go toe to toe with defenders playing the low block (could Nketiah adapt here? https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/18669834/eddie-nketiah-arsenal-body-transformation-transfer/) - he would come with the massive advantage that Arteta knows him so well and has worked with him before. However good the scouting or player analysis this is not true for other potential targets.

Dusan Vlahovic has not replicated his form for Fiorentina at Juve since his move in January, and there is no guarantee that he would have been an immediate success for us in a more difficult league had we managed to sign him. £70 odd mil represented a massive risk in these circumstances not only because of this but because it would have meant at least one less other top signing this Summer.

Jesus is EPL ready and tested, and our manager can have greater certainty re his plans and expectations for the player. For me this trumps signing an unknown with a more 'ideal' physical profile...

[mandela8]

Again, fair points...but unless Arteta thinks they can play the same way with Jesus as they could have with Vlahovic it speaks to either a lack of strategy or change in strategy...as you have to assume there a significant element of 'getting the right player for the system'...unless I'm giving Arteta too much credit which is possible as he deserves little credit in my anyway.

[I am invisible]

He might? Again, we’re just assuming that he wanted Vlahovic because of his physical profile, but it might have always been purely about his ability to do the job we need: pressing, hold-up play, movement and goals. His size might have been nothing more than a bonus?

And tbf Arteta does have a track record of adapting and changing strategy depending on what he has to work with. When he first took over he regularly played a back 3 and wingbacks, then moved to a 4231 and more recently to 433. 433 looks like what he’s been building towards, but even now he’ll slip back to 4231 when he needs to, or chuck Holding on to make a back 3.

Looking at the core of trusted players we already have and the players we’ve been chasing this summer I wouldn’t be surprised if tactical flexibility and in-game adaptability is what we’re aiming for? A hell of a lot of those guys are comfortable in 2 or 3 different roles.

[IBK]

He might? Again, we’re just assuming that he wanted Vlahovic because of his physical profile, but it might have always been purely about his ability to do the job we need: pressing, hold-up play, movement and goals. His size might have been nothing more than a bonus?

And tbf Arteta does have a track record of adapting and changing strategy depending on what he has to work with. When he first took over he regularly played a back 3 and wingbacks, then moved to a 4231 and more recently to 433. 433 looks like what he’s been building towards, but even now he’ll slip back to 4231 when he needs to, or chuck Holding on to make a back 3.

Looking at the core of trusted players we already have and the players we’ve been chasing this summer I wouldn’t be surprised if tactical flexibility and in-game adaptability is what we’re aiming for? A hell of a lot of those guys are comfortable in 2 or 3 different roles.

Aye - flexibility both in tactics and personnel who can cover multiple positions is IMO where we need to be going. The state run clubs can afford more than we can to have specialist single position players. We need to find another way. Also - re Arteta's strategy its quite possible that this has evolved since January, and in fairness Jesus has been regarded as our No. 1 target forward for some time now. Ornestin reporting that the fee is agreed. if we land this it will be quite impressive - securing our primary target in the face of interest from Chelsea, Spurs. Reports saying Rapinha closer too - with the player keen to join us. Says a lot for the confidence in our project that these top targets want to come on board.

[mandela8]

Same with this Martinez. LB, CB and apparently DM (actually his primary position in FM22).

Just signing him as a LB or a CB doesn't make much sense given we have Gabriel and Tierney (assuming this'd be the end of Taveres) so you'd assume Arteta sees him playing a lot to spend that much, suggesting it'd be more than one position.

[IBK]

Same with this Martinez. LB, CB and apparently DM (actually his primary position in FM22).

Just signing him as a LB or a CB doesn't make much sense given we have Gabriel and Tierney (assuming this'd be the end of Taveres) so you'd assume Arteta sees him playing a lot to spend that much, suggesting it'd be more than one position.

I wouldn't be surprised if Arteta sees him as sucessor to Xhaka...and a deputy in the meantime...

[I am invisible]

Yeah, you guys might be onto something there. I can’t remember where I heard it exactly, but I’m sure someone on one of the Arsenal podcasts said that out of all the players in the City squad the one who Martinez most closely matches up to in terms of his stats is Fernandinho.

If I had to guess, I would say we’re looking at him as one of those inverted fullbacks that Pep and Arteta seem to love - a LB when we defend and a CM partner for Partey when we attack.

[I am invisible]

Aye - flexibility both in tactics and personnel who can cover multiple positions is IMO where we need to be going. The state run clubs can afford more than we can to have specialist single position players. We need to find another way. Also - re Arteta's strategy its quite possible that this has evolved since January, and in fairness Jesus has been regarded as our No. 1 target forward for some time now. Ornestin reporting that the fee is agreed. if we land this it will be quite impressive - securing our primary target in the face of interest from Chelsea, Spurs. Reports saying Rapinha closer too - with the player keen to join us. Says a lot for the confidence in our project that these top targets want to come on board.
Tbf City may have spent a fortune on players, but they actually have quite a lean squad all things considered. Their model is very much what we’re aiming for - away from bloated squads of specialists and towards a smaller number of higher quality, adaptable generalists. Easier to manage and easier to keep everyone happy and engaged with regular minutes.

[cricketsi]

With the striker situation and the seeming deviation from looking at more physical types, I wonder if they may have assessed the market and decided there is nobody of sufficient quality who is obtainable for us right now, so would rather have Jesus as CF now, and keep a spot in the squad free for a big signing next summer, when Jesus can rotate in 2 positions, at CF and RW. Smarter than going down to 6th choice option and having a striker we don't really want for 4/5 years. Tried that option and it failed miserably!

[IBK]

Yep - would make sense :good:

[mandela8]

So far so good with the improvements to the team.

New number 9 and Nketiah extended. I'm a lot happier with Jesus now than I was at the initial intradest, tbh. The more I read, I guess. Fan confirmation bias/optimism maybe...
I wasn't quite ready to give up on Nketiah either...just summin in the West Ham game for me...I think with Martinelli and Balagun there too it's probably enough. Not a title challenging cohort for me but decent enough to challenge for top 4.

Vieira still a bit of an unknown, obvs, but clearly an attempt to fill the creative void (other than Odegaard) in the squad. Hopefully he's already started his steroid cycle.

A wide player is still the priority for me. Then another CM. Really don't get the LB or tiny CB intradest but I'm unjustifiably all in on Saliba.

Two more signings would be huge. If it's Tielemans and someone even close to Raphinha's stature then I reckon it's a brilliant window.

[WMUG]

Just had a look at the fixture list and it's already clear where our season's going to fall apart.

Liverpool A, 8 Apr
West Ham A, 15 Apr
Southamton H, 22 Apr
Man City A, 26 Apr
Chelsea H, 29 Apr
Newcastle A, 6 May

There is absolutely zero chance that this run of fixtures doesn't destroy our season, whatever we may be in the running for at that stage.

[Letters]

18 points tbh.

[I am invisible]

18 points tbh.

Anything less is a sackable offence tbf.

[mandela8]

Just had a look at the fixture list and it's already clear where our season's going to fall apart.

Liverpool A, 8 Apr
West Ham A, 15 Apr
Southamton H, 22 Apr
Man City A, 26 Apr
Chelsea H, 29 Apr
Newcastle A, 6 May

There is absolutely zero chance that this run of fixtures doesn't destroy our season, whatever we may be in the running for at that stage.

We need around 75 points. Play the same games as everyone else. If we only get 3 of those 75 points from that run it doesn't matter if we get the other 72 over the rest of the season.

We have a decent start so I'd really like to see the signings finalized asap to maximize those games. Fuckin infuriates me when teams leave signings to the last day of the window when they've already missed 5 games or whatever. Pure stupid.

[WMUG]

We need around 75 points. Play the same games as everyone else. If we only get 3 of those 75 points from that run it doesn't matter if we get the other 72 over the rest of the season.

We have a decent start so I'd really like to see the signings finalized asap to maximize those games. Fuckin infuriates me when teams leave signings to the last day of the window when they've already missed 5 games or whatever. Pure stupid.

If we get 75 points from the season, we'll be challenging for the title before those games :lol:

[I am invisible]

The world cup should make things a little bit spicy in the run in - I wouldn't be surprised if all the games in the last 6 weeks are utter chaos.

[IBK]

So far so good with the improvements to the team.

New number 9 and Nketiah extended. I'm a lot happier with Jesus now than I was at the initial intradest, tbh. The more I read, I guess. Fan confirmation bias/optimism maybe...
I wasn't quite ready to give up on Nketiah either...just summin in the West Ham game for me...I think with Martinelli and Balagun there too it's probably enough. Not a title challenging cohort for me but decent enough to challenge for top 4.

Vieira still a bit of an unknown, obvs, but clearly an attempt to fill the creative void (other than Odegaard) in the squad. Hopefully he's already started his steroid cycle.

A wide player is still the priority for me. Then another CM. Really don't get the LB or tiny CB intradest but I'm unjustifiably all in on Saliba.

Two more signings would be huge. If it's Tielemans and someone even close to Raphinha's stature then I reckon it's a brilliant window.

An post that is both optimistic and realistic (if that's possible :unsure:) :good:

[Mac76]

the signings have been positive so far, but there's also the departures to consider and they too will make a statement about our ambitions

In particular, as far as i'm concerned no club with serious ambition should be starting next season with a banter player like Xhaka in the squad

his departure has to be a priority, so we can truly reset and move on from the time when players like him were considered to be good enough to be starting matches for Arsenal

[GP]

Xhaka's going nowhere, not now that his midfield partner is going to prison.

[Xhaka Can’t]

There’ll be no prison movies where he’s going.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Xhaka's going nowhere, not now that his midfield partner is going to prison.


That’s where you go if you Rape people (or go to Rape people)

Well actually 95% of the time that isn’t the case

[mandela8]

Seen ESRs injury isn't serious but he'll miss the Brentford game. As will Zinchenko.

Hopefully Partey is back but haven't seen... He is in the Ghana squad though.

[Mac76]

Seen ESRs injury isn't serious but he'll miss the Brentford game. As will Zinchenko.

Hopefully Partey is back but haven't seen... He is in the Ghana squad though.

ESR's become almost inconsequential, he needs to get his fitness together, lose some weight and show some motivation - in his last appearance i saw him, the Villa home game, he came on as a sub, walked around aimlessly and offered nothing

[mandela8]

ESR's become almost inconsequential, he needs to get his fitness together, lose some weight and show some motivation - in his last appearance i saw him, the Villa home game, he came on as a sub, walked around aimlessly and offered nothing

Yep, definitely agree with that.

Concerning. Apparently he's had issues with his diet/lifestyle but it was said he had improved...doesn't look like it though. He's fat (for a footballer)

[Marc Overmars]

ESR has been out of the picture all year really. Scored loads of goals pre Christmas last year but has barely featured since. Martinelli has done well enough to keep him out of the side but I’ve got a feeling he’s also fallen out of favour with Arteta.

[mandela8]

ESR has been out of the picture all year really. Scored loads of goals pre Christmas last year but has barely featured since. Martinelli has done well enough to keep him out of the side but I’ve got a feeling he’s also fallen out of favour with Arteta.

Naw sure about that, man.

I reckon he's naw been consistently fit enough to even challenge a return to the starting line up. We all know Arteta doesn't gie a single fuck about about form though, he plays his favorites regardless...so you may be on to something.

[fakeyank]

I think we as a club need to start thinking of life without ESR, Partey and KT... these guys are made of the same injury prone Rosicky/Diaby genes. We need to move these guys on at this point.

[WMUG]

Just had a look at the fixture list and it's already clear where our season's going to fall apart.

Liverpool A, 8 Apr
West Ham A, 15 Apr
Southamton H, 22 Apr
Man City A, 26 Apr
Chelsea H, 29 Apr
Newcastle A, 6 May

There is absolutely zero chance that this run of fixtures doesn't destroy our season, whatever we may be in the running for at that stage.

:gp:

[Marc Overmars]

The worst part is that we fucked it in the 2 fixtures from the list you would have thought we were most likely to win.

[Letters]

We did that earlier in the season, sort of the other way around.
Beat Utd and Spurs and then lost to Everton and drew against Brentford :doh:
But for every slip we could point to several games we won well or won having been behind.
We could yet get 90 points and before City assembled this squad that was more than enough to win the title. We have to get something out of the head to heads next year if we’re going to have a chance.

[Mac76]

The Brentford draw was courtesy of VAR remember...

[Niall_Quinn]

The worst part is that we fucked it in the 2 fixtures from the list you would have thought we were most likely to win.

That's approaching 2 decades of fighting like fuck to gain an advantage and, just when the killer blow can be struck, choking hard. Recurring theme. Every since Paddy left the midfield. It has always been the position we most desperately needed to fill but never did. We never had the money to afford the luxury of building a team around Cesc. Catastrophic and vain mistake by Wenger which he's since acknowledged, sort of.

From the bits I have seen this season it remains the last repair job. Even sticking Jorginho in there, a little bit of experience and guile, gives something. Not a long term solution. That still has to be found. And you push it over the top by getting that 30 goal striker. Would probably need 250 mill over 5 years. But I'm guessing we already wasted more than that in the last few years. So why not?