Bournemouth reaction and player ratings

[mandela8]

Very professional performance. Winning games they should win the way they should win them. Been a long time since we could go into those games feeling confident and never really having it shaken.

Ramsdale - 6. Couple of nervy moments but was fine overall.

Zinchenko - 7. Solid, tucked in well, was a good option.

Gabriel - 7. Never really challenged but very good.

Saliba - 8. Never really challenged but very good and a beautiful strike.

White - 7. Nevery really challenged but very good. Looked his most comfortable at RB for me.

Partey - 8.5. Immense again. Always available. Kept the ball moving forward. So far above anyone else on the pitch I thought there was 2 of them at times.

Partey - 8.5. Immense again. Always available. Kept the ball moving forward. So far above anyone else on the pitch I thought there was 2 of them at times.

Xhaka - 6.5. Solid again. Done a decent enough job but against poor opposition you really want your CM to be more impactful or have more of a presence than he did.

Odegaard - 8. Very nice. 2 goals and very good in possession. Tried a couple of low percentage passes which was good to see...even if they didn't come off.

Martinelli - 6. Not much end product and absolutely should've played a completely free Xhaka in.

Jesus - 8. Very good again. Majestic contribution for the first that won't hit any stat sheets and was unlucky to have a goal chopped off.



Excellent performance.

[LDG]

Very professional performance. Winning games they should win the way they should win them. Been a long time since we could go into those games feeling confident and never really having it shaken.

Ramsdale - 6. Couple of nervy moments but was fine overall.

Zinchenko - 7. Solid, tucked in well, was a good option.

Gabriel - 7. Never really challenged but very good.

Saliba - 8. Never really challenged but very good and a beautiful strike.

White - 7. Nevery really challenged but very good. Looked his most comfortable at RB for me.

Partey - 8.5. Immense again. Always available. Kept the ball moving forward. So far above anyone else on the pitch I thought there was 2 of them at times.

Partey - 8.5. Immense again. Always available. Kept the ball moving forward. So far above anyone else on the pitch I thought there was 2 of them at times.

Xhaka - 6.5. Solid again. Done a decent enough job but against poor opposition you really want your CM to be more impactful or have more of a presence than he did.

Odegaard - 8. Very nice. 2 goals and very good in possession. Tried a couple of low percentage passes which was good to see...even if they didn't come off.

Martinelli - 6. Not much end product and absolutely should've played a completely free Xhaka in.

Jesus - 8. Very good again. Majestic contribution for the first that won't hit any stat sheets and was unlucky to have a goal chopped off.



Excellent performance.

Hey! You did Partey twice!!!!!!!! Omgzzz

[HCZ_Reborn]

:haha: :haha: have you now just decided Saka doesn’t exist? and Partey so good you put him in twice

Seriously though, bit concerning how anonymous he’s been of late.

Of the players you have mentioned I would give Martinelli higher because of how instrumental he was in our attack but he does need to stop missing sitters.

But overall pretty much agree

[mandela8]

:haha: :haha: have you now just decided Saka doesn’t exist? and Partey so good you put him in twice

Seriously though, bit concerning how anonymous he’s been of late.

Of the players you have mentioned I would give Martinelli higher because of how instrumental he was in our attack but he does need to stop missing sitters

Wait...Saka was playing???????

[mandela8]

Hey! You did Partey twice!!!!!!!! Omgzzz

Fuckin right I did. What a baller.

[mandela8]

Wait...Saka was playing???????

Actually, I gave him this review on Thursday.

Saka 3/10: Lazy, no effort, lost the ball constantly with no end product. Thinks he's made it.

< sips tea >

[Chippy]

Actually, I gave him this review on Thursday.

Saka 3/10: Lazy, no effort, lost the ball constantly with no end product. Thinks he's made it.

< sips tea >

Saka out tbh ;)

[Letters]

Sak-a shit, amirite?

[Chippy]

Sak-a shit, amirite?

Indeed :lol:

[mandela8]

Sak-a shit, amirite?

Pretty much.

Thing is, this was a fairly standard performance by him.

If not for me opening eyes on here he'd still have got man of the match on here. I've zero doubt about that.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Too obvious do better :coffee:

On a side note Arsenal twitter cuck Tim Stillman getting salty because some people been critiquing the use of Tequilla by The Champs for the Saliba chant

I don’t think cringing so hard that you crack a few ribs is an Ernest criticism…you do you mate. Just don’t get all offended when especially when the players themselves adopt the chants as a weird act of solipsism that some people roll their eyes.

Football chants are meant to be cringe, so you’re getting the right reaction

[Ollie the Optimist]

Islington council might as well start planning for a trophy parade in May :lol:

On a serious note, we actually look like a football team. Jesus & Zinchenko have made an immediate impact. Their presence is helping others raise their game. Sure, the first three games really shouldnt be that hard but in previous years, we have lost or drawn those and looked timid. This year seems different. Sterner tests to come but signs are positive so far.

On a separate note, they really need to sort out VAR & offsides. The system is there for the clear & obvious ones not ones where you are zooming in so much the picture goes blurry to see if Jesus big toe is offside. That is not a clear or obvious error. They need a system like cricket has with umpires call. In a situation like the Jesus goal or ben white one yesterday, the linesman before any check starts says off or on and when its tight, they go with the linesman.

[Marc Overmars]

Think it’s been many moons since we’ve had a squad as likeable as this. Hard working, energetic players with the skill to match. Slow starts have killed us in the past so to come out of the traps like this has been very refreshing to see.

Fulham and Villa at home next, so you’d be disappointed if we didn’t have 15/15 points. I am looking forward to seeing how we fare against the better sides though and of course things will become trickier with Europa League games sandwiched in there too.

[I am invisible]

Didn’t we used to use that Tequila chant for Eboue?

[I am invisible]

It’s great to win a game so comfortably again and still feel like we had another couple of gears to move through if we needed them - I’ve missed that.

That’s the biggest positive for me right now - we’re already playing well and it feels like there’s still extra levels to be found. Atm we’re still trying to find our balance. Our attack has been very left-focussed so far, but I expect that will swing to the right for a little while once teams wise up to that threat, before eventually settling into an unpredictable mix of the two. Likewise I felt we went a little overly defensive in the second half against Palace and then were a little too care-free against Leicester - I expect we’ll eventually find the right balance there too, and when we do I think this could be some team.

[I am invisible]

Pretty much.

Thing is, this was a fairly standard performance by him.

If not for me opening eyes on here he'd still have got man of the match on here. I've zero doubt about that.
Sorry m8, I just don’t see this big issue with Saka that you’re seeing? He might not be doing a glamorous, headline-grabbing job for us right now, but for me he’s still doing the job that the team needs.

We’re the classic kid-with-a-new-toy atm, now our left side is functional again - most of our plan is going down that side and Martinelli, Xhaka and Zinchenko (supported by Jesus) are getting to be the stars. Saka has been fairly uninvolved so far, but then he doesn’t really have to do anything at the moment other than hold his position, maintain the team’s width and draw attention away from those left-sided guys - that’s his part right now. Things will swing his way again at some point - teams will start doubling-up on our left as they wise up to that threat, Jesus will start to link more with the right as he settles (hardly surprising he’s leaning more to the left in these early stages with his old team mate Zinchenko and his fellow Brazilian Martinelli over there) and Martinelli will then have to do the thankless job of holding the width on the other side. And eventually we’ll start switching between both sides without preference or bias.

Personally, I think it’s great that Saka is now able to step out of the spotlight and let someone else carry the load - he needs the break. Everyone had a reduced preseason in the summer of 2020 because of lockdown and the late finish to the previous season, but then he had another reduced preseason in 2021 because of the Euros (where he literally kicked the last ball of the tournament!), and he’s had another reduced preseason again this summer because of the ridiculous 2 weeks of internationals as soon as the season finished. Chuck in the fact that he very rarely misses a game, and how teams often double-up on him and rotationally foul him all game long and I’m amazed he hasn’t broken down yet!

Everyone is full of cautionary warnings about heaping too much pressure and expectation on Saliba at 21, and how mistakes and dips in form will inevitably happen etc, but I think people forget that Saka is even younger than Saliba because he’s been around so long. He’s arguably been shouldering the weight of expectation for this team for the last 2 seasons, while all the cowardly senior players around him sat back and let him, and he’s also had to cope with the emotional baggage of that penalty miss against Italy. It’s a lot for 20 year old to deal with and I really don’t begrudge him a quiet patch - give the kid a break and let him catch his breath.

[mandela8]

Sorry m8, I just don’t see this big issue with Saka that you’re seeing? He might not be doing a glamorous, headline-grabbing job for us right now, but for me he’s still doing the job that the team needs.

We’re the classic kid-with-a-new-toy atm, now our left side is functional again - most of our plan is going down that side and Martinelli, Xhaka and Zinchenko (supported by Jesus) are getting to be the stars. Saka has been fairly uninvolved so far, but then he doesn’t really have to do anything at the moment other than hold his position, maintain the team’s width and draw attention away from those left-sided guys - that’s his part right now. Things will swing his way again at some point - teams will start doubling-up on our left as they wise up to that threat, Jesus will start to link more with the right as he settles (hardly surprising he’s leaning more to the left in these early stages with his old team mate Zinchenko and his fellow Brazilian Martinelli over there) and Martinelli will then have to do the thankless job of holding the width on the other side. And eventually we’ll start switching between both sides without preference or bias.

Personally, I think it’s great that Saka is now able to step out of the spotlight and let someone else carry the load - he needs the break. Everyone had a reduced preseason in the summer of 2020 because of lockdown and the late finish to the previous season, but then he had another reduced preseason in 2021 because of the Euros (where he literally kicked the last ball of the tournament!), and he’s had another reduced preseason again this summer because of the ridiculous 2 weeks of internationals as soon as the season finished. Chuck in the fact that he very rarely misses a game, and how teams often double-up on him and rotationally foul him all game long and I’m amazed he hasn’t broken down yet!

Everyone is full of cautionary warnings about heaping too much pressure and expectation on Saliba at 21, and how mistakes and dips in form will inevitably happen etc, but I think people forget that Saka is even younger than Saliba because he’s been around so long. He’s arguably been shouldering the weight of expectation for this team for the last 2 seasons, while all the cowardly senior players around him sat back and let him, and he’s also had to cope with the emotional baggage of that penalty miss against Italy. It’s a lot for 20 year old to deal with and I really don’t begrudge him a quiet patch - give the kid a break and let him catch his breath.

Or...orrrrr...imagine we had a functioning left AND right side. They're not mutually exclusive, man.

The excuses you, and others make for him are laughable, mate. Sorry, but they are. I'm not trying to be hostile there either, man. At what point do people just accept he is t as good as people thought/think? What does he do well?

He was the top scorer and assister last season, which seemed to be the proof of his ability but all it proved was how shite the rest of the team was. When was the last time he actually directly contributed to a goal from open play? I remember 2 penalties against Chelsea and Man U(?) but when other than that? This is supposed to be one of the brightest prospects in world fitba, ffs...just a label he has simply never, ever been able to justify. It's just the bizarreness of it all that sticks in my craw and it's detrimental to the team. He should've been dropped multiple times last year...he's clearly nowhere near the level of the rest of the team this season yet he's still the first name of the team sheet. There are people on this board who actually said Saka is Arsenal's best player. It's fuckin insane, man. A sheep mentality like I've never ever seen in fitba.

[mandela8]

Read that absolute retard, Arseblog, this morning and he gave Saka 7/10. :haha:

Same as Partey, for reference.

He also banned me because I said Saka was shit.

That's what I'm talking about. The protection he gets is 100% detrimental to the team.

Imagine we had 11 players on yesterday?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Or...orrrrr...imagine we had a functioning left AND right side. They're not mutually exclusive, man.

The excuses you, and others make for him are laughable, mate. Sorry, but they are. I'm not trying to be hostile there either, man. At what point do people just accept he is t as good as people thought/think? What does he do well?

He was the top scorer and assister last season, which seemed to be the proof of his ability but all it proved was how shite the rest of the team was. When was the last time he actually directly contributed to a goal from open play? I remember 2 penalties against Chelsea and Man U(?) but when other than that? This is supposed to be one of the brightest prospects in world fitba, ffs...just a label he has simply never, ever been able to justify. It's just the bizarreness of it all that sticks in my craw and it's detrimental to the team. He should've been dropped multiple times last year...he's clearly nowhere near the level of the rest of the team this season yet he's still the first name of the team sheet. There are people on this board who actually said Saka is Arsenal's best player. It's fuckin insane, man. A sheep mentality like I've never ever seen in fitba.


So is this Rab C Nesbitt affectation you adopt a genuine thing or are you just playing a character that is horrendously stereotypically Scottish?

[I am invisible]

Or...orrrrr...imagine we had a functioning left AND right side. They're not mutually exclusive, man.

The excuses you, and others make for him are laughable, mate. Sorry, but they are. I'm not trying to be hostile there either, man. At what point do people just accept he is t as good as people thought/think? What does he do well?

He was the top scorer and assister last season, which seemed to be the proof of his ability but all it proved was how shite the rest of the team was. When was the last time he actually directly contributed to a goal from open play? I remember 2 penalties against Chelsea and Man U(?) but when other than that? This is supposed to be one of the brightest prospects in world fitba, ffs...just a label he has simply never, ever been able to justify. It's just the bizarreness of it all that sticks in my craw and it's detrimental to the team. He should've been dropped multiple times last year...he's clearly nowhere near the level of the rest of the team this season yet he's still the first name of the team sheet. There are people on this board who actually said Saka is Arsenal's best player. It's fuckin insane, man. A sheep mentality like I've never ever seen in fitba.
That’s ok mate - I can handle people having a different opinion to me. Doesn’t bother me.

Imo we already have a functioning left and right side. We know the right side works fine because we were heavily right-focussed last year. We know the left side works because we’re seeing it in action now. Just like we know we can defend and soak pressure because we saw it at Palace, and we know we can go all-out attack for a full 90 because we saw it against Leicester - like I said in my other post, it’s just a question of finding our balance. Right now it’s all a bit ‘one or the other’, but give it 5-10 games and I’m sure we’ll start working out how to knit it all together and switch between all these things in-game. I don’t think we’re far off already, tbh.

Saka’s last direct goal contribution was the cross that forced the OG against Palace. He also took the corner than Zinchenko headed back across goal for Martinelli’s opener - straight off the training ground - and he also played White in on the overlap to tee up our second yesterday (not a direct contribution that, but he was a key part of that move within the final 2 or 3 passes).

Also worth pointing out that aside from direct goals and assists, he was the 7th highest chance creator in the league last season, only 2 behind KDB - if we’d had a functional striker for the whole of last season then those direct goal contribution stats would have been higher.

[mandela8]

That’s ok mate - I can handle people having a different opinion to me. Doesn’t bother me.

Imo we already have a functioning left and right side. We know the right side works fine because we were heavily right-focussed last year. We know the left side works because we’re seeing it in action now. Just like we know we can defend and soak pressure because we saw it at Palace, and we know we can go all-out attack for a full 90 because we saw it against Leicester - like I said in my other post, it’s just a question of finding our balance. Right now it’s all a bit ‘one or the other’, but give it 5-10 games and I’m sure we’ll start working out how to knit it all together and switch between all these things in-game. I don’t think we’re far off already, tbh.

Saka’s last direct goal contribution was the cross that forced the OG against Palace. He also took the corner than Zinchenko headed back across goal for Martinelli’s opener - straight off the training ground - and he also played White in on the overlap to tee up our second yesterday (not a direct contribution that, but he was a key part of that move within the final 2 or 3 passes).

Also worth pointing out that aside from direct goals and assists, he was the 7th highest chance creator in the league last season, only 2 behind KDB - if we’d had a functional striker for the whole of last season then those direct goal contribution stats would have been higher.

:good post:

Disagree with every word, but still.

I just think everyone wants him to be this young superstar and everyone says he is...so no one challenges it.

Hopefully I'm proven wrong

[I am invisible]

:good post:

Disagree with every word, but still.

I just think everyone wants him to be this young superstar and everyone says he is...so no one challenges it.

Hopefully I'm proven wrong
I think part of the problem is where he plays - people naturally expect all wingers to look more like Martinelli, all relentless running and chaos. Someone who gets you out of your seat whenever they’re anywhere near the oppo’s area.

Saka, for me, is a new breed of player - someone who does a little bit of everything to high degree of competence and is available as an extra man everywhere down the pitch, creating overloads wherever he goes. He’ll get back, almost doubling up as an extra fullback at times. He’ll drop into midfield to get moves started and carry the ball out of trouble. He’ll come central as an extra 8 or 10, stay wide as a traditional winger, slip in overlapping fullbacks, make diagonsl runs into the box as an extra forward - whatever’s needed.

LW, RW, LB, either 8, 10… you can literally play him in half the outfield positions in the team and he just gets on with it and links well with everyone around him. It’s not always flashy what he does, and not always what people are expecting to see in their “winger”, but he’s an absolute dream of a player for any coach. The kid just gives you so many options and so much tactical flex in one player, and that ability for coaches to spontaneously adapt and change game plans feels like it’s becoming an increasingly valuable commodity in the modern game.

That’s what I see in him anyway - whether you agree or not, take solace in the fact that Pep wants him at City, Klopp wants him at ‘pool, he’s a key member of the national team at 20, and he’s been nominated for the young player equivalent of the Ballon D’or 2 years in a row now. He must be doing something right.

[Mac76]

Saka's main issue ia hanging onto the ball too long on the edge of the box instead of either shooting or, more often, playing the timely pass before the defenders close him down

Get him to play the ball earlier in those positions and he'll be the top player we want him to be

[mandela8]

I think part of the problem is where he plays - people naturally expect all wingers to look more like Martinelli, all relentless running and chaos. Someone who gets you out of your seat whenever they’re anywhere near the oppo’s area.

Saka, for me, is a new breed of player - someone who does a little bit of everything to high degree of competence and is available as an extra man everywhere down the pitch, creating overloads wherever he goes. He’ll get back, almost doubling up as an extra fullback at times. He’ll drop into midfield to get moves started and carry the ball out of trouble. He’ll come central as an extra 8 or 10, stay wide as a traditional winger, slip in overlapping fullbacks, make diagonsl runs into the box as an extra forward - whatever’s needed.

LW, RW, LB, either 8, 10… you can literally play him in half the outfield positions in the team and he just gets on with it and links well with everyone around him. It’s not always flashy what he does, and not always what people are expecting to see in their “winger”, but he’s an absolute dream of a player for any coach. The kid just gives you so many options and so much tactical flex in one player, and that ability for coaches to spontaneously adapt and change game plans feels like it’s becoming an increasingly valuable commodity in the modern game.

That’s what I see in him anyway - whether you agree or not, take solace in the fact that Pep wants him at City, Klopp wants him at ‘pool, he’s a key member of the national team at 20, and he’s been nominated for the young player equivalent of the Ballon D’or 2 years in a row now. He must be doing something right.

I think you're absolutely deluded and desperate here, tbh. A new breed of player?

Aye, he's this new breed that's naw very good yet is thought to be brilliant. I've certainly never seen anything like it.

Most of your post is just utter, utter nonsense.

[mandela8]

Saka's main issue ia hanging onto the ball too long on the edge of the box instead of either shooting or, more often, playing the timely pass before the defenders close him down

Get him to play the ball earlier in those positions and he'll be the top player we want him to be

Being so one footed is a huge contributor to that. He almost always cuts back and everything is slowed down.

His only 'good' consecutive performances came at LB when his job was to get to the by line and get it in the box. He just doesn't have the intelligence to play in one of the attacking positions. Zero killer instinct. Terrible passer. Woeful striker of a ball.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Pretty much.

Thing is, this was a fairly standard performance by him.

If not for me opening eyes on here he'd still have got man of the match on here. I've zero doubt about that.

I very much doubt it. If you hadn’t resurrected the player rating thread, no one would get MOTM.

[Letters]

Saw the highlights.
Holy shit that touch and run and then lay off from Jesus for the first goal.

Jesus :bow:

[KSE Comedy Club]

He has well and truly resurrected this club!

[Letters]

Something, something, good on crosses, something.

[HCZ_Reborn]

He has well and truly resurrected this club!

Problem is we are after a promising young Brazillian starlet

Jorgiu David Alexandre Santos also known colloquially as Judas

[WMUG]

They say he walks on water
And turns it into wine
Oh I believe in Jesus!
The Arsenal number nine!

:d

[selassie]

Saka's main issue ia hanging onto the ball too long on the edge of the box instead of either shooting or, more often, playing the timely pass before the defenders close him down

Get him to play the ball earlier in those positions and he'll be the top player we want him to be

Aye, I watched him quite closely on Saturday and he did struggle at times with his decision making. Saka is a quality player and has proven that over the past few seasons both for us and England, I am not particularly worried about him and his current drop in form.

I also think bringing in competition, I.E a new winger will help in stepping up his game, we are starting to build a quality squad now, if you are not playing to the level required then we are starting to see decent options in the squad to come in and replace out of form players.

[selassie]

Saw the highlights.
Holy shit that touch and run and then lay off from Jesus for the first goal.

Jesus :bow:

Jesus is having a "Sanchez" like effect on the team, very similar to when Sanchez came in and improved our offensive play. I knew Jesus was a good player but he has surprised me with how good he is, literally looks like an elite forward!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Aye, I watched him quite closely on Saturday and he did struggle at times with his decision making. Saka is a quality player and has proven that over the past few seasons both for us and England, I am not particularly worried about him and his current drop in form.

I also think bringing in competition, I.E a new winger will help in stepping up his game, we are starting to build a quality squad now, if you are not playing to the level required then we are starting to see decent options in the squad to come in and replace out of form players.

Oh I think unquestionably bringing in a winger to challenge him would be good both for the club and for the player

But, if we are dealing with limited resources that isn’t the priority

Anymore than bringing in a second choice left back was the priority (don’t give a fuck about MOTD creaming it’s pants over Zinchenko….it’s easy to look good when you have space and time to look good and your playing against retards….but I think the Palace game where he was made to look like a complete turd by Jordan Ayew shows more what he’s about)

[Letters]

They say he walks on water
And turns it into wine
Oh I believe in Jesus!
The Arsenal number nine!

:d

To the tune of...?

[KSE Comedy Club]

They say he walks on water
And turns it into wine
Oh I believe in Jesus!
The Arsenal number nine!

:d

YES! :)

I love that we are starting to feel the love for these guys and making new chants again.

[mandela8]

Aye, I watched him quite closely on Saturday and he did struggle at times with his decision making. Saka is a quality player and has proven that over the past few seasons both for us and England, I am not particularly worried about him and his current drop in form.

I also think bringing in competition, I.E a new winger will help in stepping up his game, we are starting to build a quality squad now, if you are not playing to the level required then we are starting to see decent options in the squad to come in and replace out of form players.

Unfortunately I reckon Saka crumbles at the first sign of competition. Just doesn't strike me as the type of person with a set of balls on him. He's just never had to face adversity and has had everything too easy...which is a huge part of the problem.

And, again, Saka hasn't suffered a loss of form here. You, and others, are now just having your eyes opened, man. You, and others, won't like to admit that but Saka is playing no better or worse than he ever has.

[Mac76]

Unfortunately I reckon Saka crumbles at the first sign of competition. Just doesn't strike me as the type of person with a set of balls on him. He's just never had to face adversity and has had everything too easy...which is a huge part of the problem.

.

You missed the bit when he failed to score a pel in a home Euros final and got pelted with racist abuse right?

Also do you have any idea what young players go through in the football machine where so few make it?

Ok, he can play better and needs to work on releasing the ball quicker but he's a very dangerous player who makes defenders
nervous which if nothing else creates opportinities for others

[mandela8]

You missed the bit when he failed to score a pel in a home Euros final and got pelted with racist abuse right?

Also do you have any idea what young players go through in the football machine where so few make it?

Ok, he can play better and needs to work on releasing the ball quicker but he's a very dangerous player who makes defenders
nervous which if nothing else creates opportinities for others

Honestly, I think if anything the whole England experience has made him even more excusable/untouchable in a purely football context, which is what I meant.

Obviously being subject to racism must be horrific but that's not really what I meant. He's came into the team and is the first player on the team sheet despite being utterly fuckin appalling most games. There has been absolutely zero consequences for his shocking performances and when/if those consequences come I think he crumbles, man.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The interesting thing is there are clear blind spots in your analysis of players

I think your critique of Martinelli is (largely) fair even though Martinelli is one of my favourite players and if I had to venture an opinion of the player Id least like to see dropped between Martinelli and Saka is Martinelli and I’d have said that six months ago too.

But the interesting thing is a lot of your criticism of Saka is attributable to another attacking player Martin Odegaard…who for me is still Aaron Ramsey with a slightly better first touch. If not for the fact that Smith Rowe moves like he has one leg shorter than the other, looks overweight and plays like he’s overweight I’d have seen good cause for Odegaard to be dropped last season. Completely anonymous in certain games, never bothers to track back and is often indecisive or just makes the wrong decision in front of goal.
Yet never heard a peep from you about him. If it wasn’t for the fact that a) for some reason better known to himself Arteta has made him captain and b) Vieira looks like a skaghead with the upper body strength of Bobby Sands I’d have been wanting to see him start instead of Odegaard this season.
Of course equally I don’t blame Odegaard entirely, when you’ve got that Albanian cretin doing nothing behind you, you’re going to go long periods without seeing the ball.

[selassie]

Unfortunately I reckon Saka crumbles at the first sign of competition. Just doesn't strike me as the type of person with a set of balls on him. He's just never had to face adversity and has had everything too easy...which is a huge part of the problem.

And, again, Saka hasn't suffered a loss of form here. You, and others, are now just having your eyes opened, man. You, and others, won't like to admit that but Saka is playing no better or worse than he ever has.

This is a kid who was roundly jeered by fans from a majority of PL clubs last season after his Euros penalties miss. He produced last season under pressure so I have no idea what you mean by he has had it too easy and is not that type of person. Competition should breed an upturn in performances for all of those in the current starting XI.

Saka is definitely not playing at the level we know he is capable of, I have seen him turn out top class performances on a semi-regular basis last season, my eyes were open then and are open now! :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

This is a kid who was roundly jeered by fans from a majority of PL clubs last season after his Euros penalties miss. He produced last season under pressure so I have no idea what you mean by he has had it too easy and is not that type of person. Competition should breed an upturn in performances for all of those in the current starting XI.

Saka is definitely not playing at the level we know he is capable of, I have seen him turn out top class performances on a semi-regular basis last season, my eyes were open then and are open now! :lol:

It might be nice if you had a more objective analysis of how much of a liability Xhaka is but oh well

[mandela8]

This is a kid who was roundly jeered by fans from a majority of PL clubs last season after his Euros penalties miss. He produced last season under pressure so I have no idea what you mean by he has had it too easy and is not that type of person. Competition should breed an upturn in performances for all of those in the current starting XI.

Saka is definitely not playing at the level we know he is capable of, I have seen him turn out top class performances on a semi-regular basis last season, my eyes were open then and are open now! :lol:

Well, he wasn't jeered...in fact, he was cheered wherever he went. Naw really sure where you're getting that from, tbh.

As for these so called 'top class' performance, as I've asked multiple times, perhaps you could name a few. His only 'good' performances have come at left back, imo/fact.

[selassie]

Well, he wasn't jeered...in fact, he was cheered wherever he went. Naw really sure where you're getting that from, tbh.

As for these so called 'top class' performance, as I've asked multiple times, perhaps you could name a few. His only 'good' performances have come at left back, imo/fact.

He was jeered at quite a few grounds, the "You let your country down chant" was sung at a few grounds, Leeds being one that really springs to mind.

Off the top of my head, Saka was superb at home to the Spuds, United at home, Watford away and Chelsea away. His stats in PL last season were 11 goals and 7 assists which is not a bad return at all. If he improves his output on both goals and assists by say 5 then we are talking about superb numbers for a wide player.

Who do you think should replace him from the squad? Who will put up those kind of numbers? Because that is the bare minimum we require if we harbour any ambitions of finishing in top 4 this season.

[selassie]

It might be nice if you had a more objective analysis of how much of a liability Xhaka is but oh well

Regarding Xhaka, I just didn't think he is as much as a liability as you guys do. He was a liability when playing the Deep lying Playmaker role and clearly at times cost the team points. I think he can be upgraded on and I question his position in the team long term, especially now he is playing further forward. However I think Arteta moving him further up the pitch masks his deficiencies. I am somewhere in the middle with him. I don't think he is a liability but I am also not sold on what he offers the team (even though he is playing well at the moment).

[HCZ_Reborn]

Regarding Xhaka, I just didn't think he is as much as a liability as you guys do. He was a liability when playing the Deep lying Playmaker role and clearly at times cost the team points. I think he can be upgraded on and I question his position in the team long term, especially now he is playing further forward. However I think Arteta moving him further up the pitch masks his deficiencies. I am somewhere in the middle with him. I don't think he is a liability but I am also not sold on what he offers the team (even though he is playing well at the moment).

I understand why you say that but you are of course completely wrong. The fact that Xhaka has been allowed that free role is an admission by Arteta that he simply can’t be trusted in a deeper role. Its in fact a sign of the hubris Arteta has whereby in my view he should have been relieved of his job by now.

This isn’t the Bundesliga or Serie A, you simply cannot have a player who has no anticipation or reading of the game, takes too long to get the ball on his preferred foot and lacks positional awareness in central midfield at all. You can get away with it when playing championship level teams like Bournemouth or teams experiencing a crisis of confidence like Leicester.
But otherwise you’re ceding the middle of the park to the opposition, you cannot have a player who gives the ball away as frequently as Xhaka near the team. You might think I’m worried when we play teams like Man City or Liverpool, no I’m worried when we play Fulham. Fulham will not allow us to play the way we did against Bournemouth…a slow player like Zinchenko won’t be allowed to look better than he is and Xhaka giving the ball away like he does could even be fatal.

It’s not hyperbole. Central midfield is the most important part of the pitch….it’s where games are won and lost and if we don’t improve that position before the window closes…we will certainly lose at home to city, home to Liverpool and other games too.

[mandela8]

He was jeered at quite a few grounds, the "You let your country down chant" was sung at a few grounds, Leeds being one that really springs to mind.

Off the top of my head, Saka was superb at home to the Spuds, United at home, Watford away and Chelsea away. His stats in PL last season were 11 goals and 7 assists which is not a bad return at all. If he improves his output on both goals and assists by say 5 then we are talking about superb numbers for a wide player.

Who do you think should replace him from the squad? Who will put up those kind of numbers? Because that is the bare minimum we require if we harbour any ambitions of finishing in top 4 this season.

So a couple of numpties at Leeds? Hardly "roundly jeered" then, eh? He was cheered everywhere, basically.

As for those performances being "superb", I really don't know what to say about that. As hyperbolic as your "roundly jeered" claim, is about the best I can do..

As for his stats, remove the set piece padding and for the single mainstay in the 3 attackers it flatters to deceive a little. Regardless, I'm naw really one for these stats anyway. I'm more of an eye test guy and the chances that were lost when the ball went to Saka last season was shocking.

As for who from the current squad I'd play before Saka...Pepe, ESR, Viera (who I've never seen play) and Riess Nelson, tbh.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You’re naw really one for the Stats (except when you were conveniently in favour of them for defending Nicolas Pepe)

You’re naw really one for speaking proper English either are you ?

[mandela8]

Regarding Xhaka, I just didn't think he is as much as a liability as you guys do. He was a liability when playing the Deep lying Playmaker role and clearly at times cost the team points. I think he can be upgraded on and I question his position in the team long term, especially now he is playing further forward. However I think Arteta moving him further up the pitch masks his deficiencies. I am somewhere in the middle with him. I don't think he is a liability but I am also not sold on what he offers the team (even though he is playing well at the moment).

I think this is pretty fair, man. I don't necessarily agree with it but it's reasonable. Moving Xhaka up the pitch does mitigate one of his biggest liabilities, at least. He also seems to have a good engine on him, which is what Wenger said about him years ago. I think he's an obvious candidate for improvement but with Lokonga there and possibly Viera the goalscoring void, behind Jesus, is clearly the number 1 priority for the squad right now.

[Mac76]

I understand why you say that but you are of course completely wrong. The fact that Xhaka has been allowed that free role is an admission by Arteta that he simply can’t be trusted in a deeper role. Its in fact a sign of the hubris Arteta has whereby in my view he should have been relieved of his job by now.

This isn’t the Bundesliga or Serie A, you simply cannot have a player who has no anticipation or reading of the game, takes too long to get the ball on his preferred foot and lacks positional awareness in central midfield at all. You can get away with it when playing championship level teams like Bournemouth or teams experiencing a crisis of confidence like Leicester.
But otherwise you’re ceding the middle of the park to the opposition, you cannot have a player who gives the ball away as frequently as Xhaka near the team. You might think I’m worried when we play teams like Man City or Liverpool, no I’m worried when we play Fulham. Fulham will not allow us to play the way we did against Bournemouth…a slow player like Zinchenko won’t be allowed to look better than he is and Xhaka giving the ball away like he does could even be fatal.

It’s not hyperbole. Central midfield is the most important part of the pitch….it’s where games are won and lost and if we don’t improve that position before the window closes…we will certainly lose at home to city, home to Liverpool and other games too.

Was thinking that myself earlier, Xhaka's got away with it so far, but it won't last and the disturbing thing is that Arteta is as ever blind to Xhaka's failings

[selassie]

I understand why you say that but you are of course completely wrong. The fact that Xhaka has been allowed that free role is an admission by Arteta that he simply can’t be trusted in a deeper role. Its in fact a sign of the hubris Arteta has whereby in my view he should have been relieved of his job by now.

This isn’t the Bundesliga or Serie A, you simply cannot have a player who has no anticipation or reading of the game, takes too long to get the ball on his preferred foot and lacks positional awareness in central midfield at all. You can get away with it when playing championship level teams like Bournemouth or teams experiencing a crisis of confidence like Leicester.
But otherwise you’re ceding the middle of the park to the opposition, you cannot have a player who gives the ball away as frequently as Xhaka near the team. You might think I’m worried when we play teams like Man City or Liverpool, no I’m worried when we play Fulham. Fulham will not allow us to play the way we did against Bournemouth…a slow player like Zinchenko won’t be allowed to look better than he is and Xhaka giving the ball away like he does could even be fatal.

It’s not hyperbole. Central midfield is the most important part of the pitch….it’s where games are won and lost and if we don’t improve that position before the window closes…we will certainly lose at home to city, home to Liverpool and other games too.

I don't entirely disagree, but you can't say for sure that this will be the outcome with Xhaka without the game taking place. I am not sure exactly where you are taking this conversation now. I have admitted Xhaka has weaknesses and was moved into a position to mask them to an extent...I have said we can upgrade on him...he is not the only player we can upgrade on if we really want to cement ourselves as a top 4 team / challenging team.

[selassie]

So a couple of numpties at Leeds? Hardly "roundly jeered" then, eh? He was cheered everywhere, basically.

As for those performances being "superb", I really don't know what to say about that. As hyperbolic as your "roundly jeered" claim, is about the best I can do..

As for his stats, remove the set piece padding and for the single mainstay in the 3 attackers it flatters to deceive a little. Regardless, I'm naw really one for these stats anyway. I'm more of an eye test guy and the chances that were lost when the ball went to Saka last season was shocking.

As for who from the current squad I'd play before Saka...Pepe, ESR, Viera (who I've never seen play) and Riess Nelson, tbh.

Hyperbole you said?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't entirely disagree, but you can't say for sure that this will be the outcome with Xhaka without the game taking place. I am not sure exactly where you are taking this conversation now. I have admitted Xhaka has weaknesses and was moved into a position to mask them to an extent...I have said we can upgrade on him...he is not the only player we can upgrade on if we really want to cement ourselves as a top 4 team / challenging team.


It’s not we can upgrade on, it’s their presence in the side is detrimental to that progress. There’s a difference between we can do better than that player, and that player is harming us. We laugh at United for getting done over by Brentford….that would have comfortably happened to us (not necessarily conceding the amount of goals) but we would be under constant threat with the amount Xhaka gives away the ball.

[Globalgunner]

We can do better than Xhaka for sure and he is now getting to the stage where he has almost no resale value. Typically Arsenal we will keep him and give him a testimonial for doing nothing in a decade except accumulate red cards. Lets hope he has a great world cup and we can offload at Xmas.

He has been ok so far this season, but we havent really had a hard game yet,

[selassie]

It’s not we can upgrade on, it’s their presence in the side is detrimental to that progress. There’s a difference between we can do better than that player, and that player is harming us. We laugh at United for getting done over by Brentford….that would have comfortably happened to us (not necessarily conceding the amount of goals) but we would be under constant threat with the amount Xhaka gives away the ball.

So Xhaka's presence in the team right now is detrimental to our progress? He is harming us right now?

[IBK]

I don't really get this Xhaka hate. I understand that he has been a lightening rod for fans' disaffection with the club over the past few years, and that he has had his disciplinary issues. I appreciate also that people feel he should be upgraded on. But he has been a first team regular under successive Arsenal managers, and his committment to the club has been really solid - despite his near departure to Roma, and being played in several positions. He has 1 goal and 2 assists so far this season. If he was lacking in effort or disparaging of the club, I could understand it more, but all this hate and opprobrium basically because fans feel he could be upgraded upon makes no sense to me.

[HCZ_Reborn]

So Xhaka's presence in the team right now is detrimental to our progress? He is harming us right now?

Yes because you’re watching him against teams that are giving us the time and space we want on the ball and it’s making certain people believe there is a problem. And Xhaka gave the ball away in dangerous positions against Leicester and Bournemouth and that could have been costly

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't really get this Xhaka hate. I understand that he has been a lightening rod for fans' disaffection with the club over the past few years, and that he has had his disciplinary issues. I appreciate also that people feel he should be upgraded on. But he has been a first team regular under successive Arsenal managers, and his committment to the club has been really solid - despite his near departure to Roma, and being played in several positions. He has 1 goal and 2 assists so far this season. If he was lacking in effort or disparaging of the club, I could understand it more, but all this hate and opprobrium basically because fans feel he could be upgraded upon makes no sense to me.

It’s not hate ffs, it’s recognition that it’s madness to have a player like that in your central midfield. Ticking time bomb in the same way Mustafi was. That transitional area between defence and attack is so important in the game, and you need someone who you can rely on to get the ball into the opponents half without being dispossessed, closed down. So far Zinchenko has been able to bail him out but Zinchenko is not quick or technical enough to do that against better and quicker teams

[selassie]

Yes because you’re watching him against teams that are giving us the time and space we want on the ball and it’s making certain people believe there is a problem. And Xhaka gave the ball away in dangerous positions against Leicester and Bournemouth and that could have been costly

Right so essentially you are saying Xhaka is detrimental to the progress of our team and harms our teams based on what might happen when we face a better side? OK......

[HCZ_Reborn]

Right so essentially you are saying Xhaka is detrimental to the progress of our team and harms our teams based on what might happen when we face a better side? OK......

What time and time again has happened and that we’ve dodged a bullet even a few times this season because of him

[IBK]

It’s not hate ffs, it’s recognition that it’s madness to have a player like that in your central midfield. Ticking time bomb in the same way Mustafi was. That transitional area between defence and attack is so important in the game, and you need someone who you can rely on to get the ball into the opponents half without being dispossessed, closed down. So far Zinchenko has been able to bail him out but Zinchenko is not quick or technical enough to do that against better and quicker teams

Looking at some of the comments from people on here, it certainly is hate. Xhaka got a single red card in the EPL last season (as did 4 other Arsenal players) - and the fact that he did not get 2 yellows in any game (I think) suggests that he is trying at least to address this aspect of his game. He got a single red card in the 2020/21 season (all comps) and none in the previous 3 seasons (all comps). Plus he is certainly a marked man amongst referees. Equating him to Mustafi who was, frankly, cowardly in many games is IMO an unfair comparison. He has played really well this season with 1 goal and 2 assists in the EPL to date. I have heard many Arsenal fans and pundits acknowledge that he often has really good games. Could we improve on him - yes. Does he have flaws - yes. But his reputation as a complete liablility just isn't bourne out by the facts.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Xhaka is playing alongside better players this season, and he seems to benefit from that. It’s working now, hopefully it continues to do so because no matter how much he plays, he never gets injured.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Looking at some of the comments from people on here, it certainly is hate. Xhaka got a single red card in the EPL last season (as did 4 other Arsenal players) - and the fact that he did not get 2 yellows in any game (I think) suggests that he is trying at least to address this aspect of his game. He got a single red card in the 2020/21 season (all comps) and none in the previous 3 seasons (all comps). Plus he is certainly a marked man amongst referees. Equating him to Mustafi who was, frankly, cowardly in many games is IMO an unfair comparison. He has played really well this season with 1 goal and 2 assists in the EPL to date. I have heard many Arsenal fans and pundits acknowledge that he often has really good games. Could we improve on him - yes. Does he have flaws - yes. But his reputation as a complete liablility just isn't bourne out by the facts.

There are some very simple factors in play, this league is full of teams that have adopted a high press strategy and when the key to winning games is controlling the midfield and factor in that Xhaka often gives the ball away when not under pressure by dallying on it too long or playing blind passes when he hasn’t even bothered looking to see if there is a pass on…that makes him a liability. As an aspiring top four side we shouldn’t countenance having him in the team, the problem is that the replacement options seem to be even worse between Lokonga who Arteta seems to have no faith in and Elneny.

I’ve said constantly if Xhaka played in Germany or Italy he’d be a very good player, because he’d have the time to actually play the type of game that best suits his style, in the premier league however you won’t get that time and thus he’s a liability. And I’m really really perturbed that we are even having this conversation when it’s so fucking obvious

[selassie]

Looking at some of the comments from people on here, it certainly is hate. Xhaka got a single red card in the EPL last season (as did 4 other Arsenal players) - and the fact that he did not get 2 yellows in any game (I think) suggests that he is trying at least to address this aspect of his game. He got a single red card in the 2020/21 season (all comps) and none in the previous 3 seasons (all comps). Plus he is certainly a marked man amongst referees. Equating him to Mustafi who was, frankly, cowardly in many games is IMO an unfair comparison. He has played really well this season with 1 goal and 2 assists in the EPL to date. I have heard many Arsenal fans and pundits acknowledge that he often has really good games. Could we improve on him - yes. Does he have flaws - yes. But his reputation as a complete liablility just isn't bourne out by the facts.

:gp:

[Mac76]

The other annoying thing about Xhaka is how he gets a free pass from Arteta every time he messes up, whereas someone like Pepe is treated really harshly

He's obviously a real teacher's pet and i wonder whether he's as popular with the others as it's made out, or they're just too scared of getting on the wrong side of Arteta to have a go at him whenever he creates yet another goal-scoring opportunity for the opposition

[Letters]

The other annoying thing about Xhaka is how he gets a free pass from Arteta every time he messes up, whereas someone like Pepe is treated really harshly

He's obviously a real teacher's pet and i wonder whether he's as popular with the others as it's made out, or they're just too scared of getting on the wrong side of Arteta to have a go at him whenever he creates yet another goal-scoring opportunity for the opposition

There is something is that, and I certainly don't think we're going to be sweeping all before us in the PL or CL with Xhaka in midfield.
But he's not as bad as some people make out and doesn't deserve all the vitriol his presence in our team seems to generate.

[IBK]

The other annoying thing about Xhaka is how he gets a free pass from Arteta every time he messes up, whereas someone like Pepe is treated really harshly

He's obviously a real teacher's pet and i wonder whether he's as popular with the others as it's made out, or they're just too scared of getting on the wrong side of Arteta to have a go at him whenever he creates yet another goal-scoring opportunity for the opposition

I agree that Arteta's apparent inconsistency with players can be infuriating, but it does speak to Xhaka's application that not only Arteta, but every manager since AW has had him as a starter. Again, not to say that the player is not flawed, but these successive managers are not total fools, and if Xhaka was the utter liability that some people make him out to be, it doesn't make any sense that he would be an ever present over such a long period of time.

[Mac76]

I agree that Arteta's apparent inconsistency with players can be infuriating, but it does speak to Xhaka's application that not only Arteta, but every manager since AW has had him as a starter. Again, not to say that the player is not flawed, but these successive managers are not total fools, and if Xhaka was the utter liability that some people make him out to be, it doesn't make any sense that he would be an ever present over such a long period of time.

Don't agree, Emery was weak and needed support so jumped at the chance of having a sycophant like Xhaka there, Freddie likewise and Arteta's been learning on the job and like Emery had a problem with talented players who didn't see the point in running around traffic cones all day

Xhaka's just a talentless creep, any well-established manager with balls would tell him to do one

[Letters]

Xhaka's just a talentless creep

Sigh.

Yes, this is the sort of bullshit we are talking about

:rolleyes:

[I am invisible]

I agree that Arteta's apparent inconsistency with players can be infuriating, but it does speak to Xhaka's application that not only Arteta, but every manager since AW has had him as a starter. Again, not to say that the player is not flawed, but these successive managers are not total fools, and if Xhaka was the utter liability that some people make him out to be, it doesn't make any sense that he would be an ever present over such a long period of time.
:good:

I actually think Arteta is incredibly consistent with the players he picks. For me it has nothing at all to do with subjectivity and fairness - there are just players who understand and fit the way he wants to play and players who don’t: the ones who fit get picked regularly and the ones who don’t sit on the bench and are mostly used in an emergency. I really don’t think it’s any more complicated than that.

We’re all making the assumption here that Pepe would have been in for an extended run in the side if he hadn’t made mistakes, but I don’t think he was ever coming into the side for more than a single game here and there. He’s just not a JdP footballer who’s game is all about possession and positioning and control - he’s a pure counter-attacker - so he’s never going to be a starter in a Mikel Arteta team. It’s nothing personal - his skill set just doesn’t match the plan that the coach is trying execute.

Xhaka, on the other hand, does fit his system - he comes with a cost, and you have to be prepared to pay that cost if you’re going to play him, but overall he does the job the coach asks him to do so he gets picked.

I do think Xhaka has been incredibly lucky in his Arsenal career so far in that stars always seem to align for him every summer to somehow create a bigger emergency than CM that eats up most of our budget, but I think he’s going to have to be a lot more careful this year? Arteta is starting to fill the squad out with his own men now, and the way we’ve rearranged to midfield with two 8s and a lone 6 means there’s a lot more players we can turn to who could play his role - if he does something stupid again, and one of those guys makes a case for himself while he’s out, then he could find he has a wait before he gets back into the side.

[I am invisible]

I also think we’re making a lot of incorrect inferences about Pepe and Arteta’s relationship because of what happened with the likes of Özil, Guendouzi and Auba.

Those guys weren’t bombed out because of heat-of-the-moment, in-game mistakes - they went because they were disruptive influences who lacked professionalism and continually breached the code of conduct. As far as I know, Arteta has no personal issue with Pepe whatsoever - he seems like a good guy and a hard worker and decent professional - he’s just not cut out for how Arteta wants to play.

I really feel for him tbh - he was sold on a move that was never right for him, by a couple of dodgy DoFs and agents who were looking for a pay day, and it’s wrecked his career. The coach he was bought for didn’t want him, the coach who has inherited him doesn’t want him, and the deal he was signed on (and the pandemic) has made it almost impossible to move him on - he really is stuck in purgatory,

[HCZ_Reborn]

I also think we’re making a lot of incorrect inferences about Pepe and Arteta’s relationship because of what happened with the likes of Özil, Guendouzi and Auba.

Those guys weren’t bombed out because of heat-of-the-moment, in-game mistakes - they went because they were disruptive influences who lacked professionalism and continually breached the code of conduct. As far as I know, Arteta has no personal issue with Pepe whatsoever - he seems like a good guy and a hard worker and decent professional - he’s just not cut out for how Arteta wants to play.

I really feel for him tbh - he was sold on a move that was never right for him, by a couple of dodgy DoFs and agents who were looking for a pay day, and it’s wrecked his career. The coach he was bought for didn’t want him, the coach who has inherited him doesn’t want him, and the deal he was signed on (and the pandemic) has made it almost impossible to move him on - he really is stuck in purgatory,

But Arteta has handled the situation badly because he has little or no personal skills. Just like he handled the Auba situational dreadfully. It’s like if you cross some invisible line, you can forget playing again and half the time you won’t even know what you’ve done wrong.

[Marc Overmars]

I think Arteta could have given Pepe a fairer crack of the whip but he wasn’t wanted and obviously didn’t do enough in training or the minutes he was given to impress. Simply put, Arteta pushed the reset button. Look at the squad he inherited and the squad now, the only player who is still involved to the same extent is Xhaka.

We all said our squad had too much deadweight and needed a cull and that’s exactly what’s happened. Not going to knock a new coach for doing things his way and with players of his choosing.

[Mac76]

the only player who is still involved to the same extent is Xhaka.



Which is why i still don't trust Arteta's judgement

[Mac76]

if he does something stupid again, and one of those guys makes a case for himself while he’s out, then he could find he has a wait before he gets back into the side.

We can only hope

[Mac76]

But Arteta has handled the situation badly because he has little or no personal skills. Just like he handled the Auba situational dreadfully. It’s like if you cross some invisible line, you can forget playing again and half the time you won’t even know what you’ve done wrong.

Agree, you need to handle expensive investmemts better than that, he's wiped out Pepe's value for example when he could have given him more game time when it suited

Last season the only times he brought him on were defensive situations which weren't the best time

If Pepe had been on the bench last weekend he could have come on, got a goal and his value would have shot up

[I am invisible]

But Arteta has handled the situation badly because he has little or no personal skills. Just like he handled the Auba situational dreadfully. It’s like if you cross some invisible line, you can forget playing again and half the time you won’t even know what you’ve done wrong.
I don’t think he handled the Auba situation badly at all - quite the opposite. That invisible line you talk about was perfectly visible to me - Arteta very clearly outlined his ‘non-negotiables’ when he took over and made it abundantly clear that his first job was to reset the broken culture at the club. That’s exactly what a working culture is: a set of clear standards and behaviours that you all agree to so everyone knows what is expected of them and everyone understands what falls short. No grey areas. We’re not talking about cutting Auba’s throat after one mistake here - a misunderstanding because the rules weren’t clear - we’re talking about persistent breaches of discipline and a lack of professionalism by our club captain and highest earner. He nearly missed a NLD derby ffs! Arteta fought for him to get that big new contract and he gave him the armband so you can’t tell me it was just a random personal dislike - Auba just took the piss, persistently and over a prolonged period, and it eventually got him removed from the group.

Totally disagree about Arteta lacking personal skills - listen to the younger players, the newer players, the guys at City, etc - basically all the players with high professional standards - and they all love him. The only players I know of who have had a problem with him are all the bums and piss-takers who had incredibly low professional standards - players with terminal bad attitudes or who had been coddled and babied for too many years under Wenger and didn’t like their comfortable social club being turned into a serious place of work again. Who are we talking about here anyway? Auba? Özil? Guendouzi? Kolasinac? Mustafi? Is there anyone on this list of mistreated, misunderstood players who weren’t warned numerous times about their effort, professionalism and/or conduct and who didn’t bring it in themselves, many, many times over?

Again, for me Pepe is something completely different - he’s just a signing who unfortunately hasn’t worked out, but I don’t see any issues between coach and player there around professionalism. The biggest problem for Pepe isn’t the coach - it’s that the market in Europe has collapsed since the pandemic and it’s trapped him here.

[I am invisible]

I think Arteta could have given Pepe a fairer crack of the whip but he wasn’t wanted and obviously didn’t do enough in training or the minutes he was given to impress. Simply put, Arteta pushed the reset button. Look at the squad he inherited and the squad now, the only player who is still involved to the same extent is Xhaka.

We all said our squad had too much deadweight and needed a cull and that’s exactly what’s happened. Not going to knock a new coach for doing things his way and with players of his choosing.
Yup - it hadn’t been pretty to watch at times, but, as the saying goes, this is how the sausage is made.

Tbh, I think the idea that Pepe hasn’t been given a fair go is something that only really exists from the fans’ POV. What we’re really saying here is that we, as fans, haven’t seen enough of him to make our minds up yet - that we would have liked him to have more minutes to satisfy our own curiosity because games are the only time we get to see him. Arteta has seen him every day in training for nearly 3 years - he’s probably seen everything he needs to by now, and I don’t think a few more starts would have revealed anything new to him.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t think he handled the Auba situation badly at all - quite the opposite. That invisible line you talk about was perfectly visible to me - Arteta very clearly outlined his ‘non-negotiables’ when he took over and made it abundantly clear that his first job was to reset the broken culture at the club. That’s exactly what a working culture is: a set of clear standards and behaviours that you all agree to so everyone knows what is expected of them and everyone understands what falls short. No grey areas. We’re not talking about cutting Auba’s throat after one mistake here - a misunderstanding because the rules weren’t clear - we’re talking about persistent breaches of discipline and a lack of professionalism by our club captain and highest earner. He nearly missed a NLD derby ffs! Arteta fought for him to get that big new contract and he gave him the armband so you can’t tell me it was just a random personal dislike - Auba just took the piss, persistently and over a prolonged period, and it eventually got him removed from the group.

Totally disagree about Arteta lacking personal skills - listen to the younger players, the newer players, the guys at City, etc - basically all the players with high professional standards - and they all love him. The only players I know of who have had a problem with him are all the bums and piss-takers who had incredibly low professional standards - players with terminal bad attitudes or who had been coddled and babied for too many years under Wenger and didn’t like their comfortable social club being turned into a serious place of work again. Who are we talking about here anyway? Auba? Özil? Guendouzi? Kolasinac? Mustafi? Is there anyone on this list of mistreated, misunderstood players who weren’t warned numerous times about their effort, professionalism and/or conduct and who didn’t bring it in themselves, many, many times over?

Again, for me Pepe is something completely different - he’s just a signing who unfortunately hasn’t worked out, but I don’t see any issues between coach and player there around professionalism. The biggest problem for Pepe isn’t the coach - it’s that the market in Europe has collapsed since the pandemic and it’s trapped him here.

So you think the best way to deal with someone is to use passive aggressive tactics to humiliate them by making them train by themselves?. What would have happened if we couldn’t have got the Barcelona deal over the line

And he doesn’t have personal skills. When you hear the players talk they talk about how impressed they are with him tactically and his understanding of the game. There’s almost no personal interaction with the players one on one throughout the entire eight episodes. He’s clearly someone who is so introverted he cannot handle that kind of interaction.

[Letters]

Confirmation bias :bow:

[Marc Overmars]

So you think the best way to deal with someone is to use passive aggressive tactics to humiliate them by making them train by themselves?. What would have happened if we couldn’t have got the Barcelona deal over the line

And he doesn’t have personal skills. When you hear the players talk they talk about how impressed they are with him tactically and his understanding of the game. There’s almost no personal interaction with the players one on one throughout the entire eight episodes. He’s clearly someone who is so introverted he cannot handle that kind of interaction.

All players are different though with how they react to coaches. Some enjoy having an arm on their shoulder while others just like being driven by what’s happening on the pitch. He’s their coach not their dad, so I don’t see it as big deal if he doesn’t quite have a personal relationship with them.

I remember Carragher and Gerrard saying Benitez was cold as shit but it didn’t stop them performing for him. Wenger was a dad to his players especially in the second half of his tenure and ended up with the most mentally fragile team I’ve ever seen.

Morale has been decent for a while now even despite the collapse last season, so you have to think whatever his personal skills are he’s still getting a tune out of them. Plus I wouldn’t use All or Nothing to draw conclusions from, there’s hours and hours of footage we’ll never see, footage that probably includes plenty of player interaction that was too dull to make the edit.

[HCZ_Reborn]

All players are different though with how they react to coaches. Some enjoy having an arm on their shoulder while others just like being driven by what’s happening on the pitch. He’s their coach not their dad, so I don’t see it as big deal if he doesn’t quite have a personal relationship with them.

I remember Carragher and Gerrard saying Benitez was cold as shit but it didn’t stop them performing for him. Wenger was a dad to his players especially in the second half of his tenure and ended up with the most mentally fragile team I’ve ever seen.

Morale has been decent for a while now even despite the collapse last season, so you have to think whatever his personal skills are he’s still getting a tune out of them. Plus I wouldn’t use All or Nothing to draw conclusions from, there’s hours and hours of footage we’ll never see, footage that probably includes plenty of player interaction that was too dull to make the edit.

And Benitez was ultimately a failure at Liverpool

I don’t care what business you’re in, you need to be able to interact with your staff one on one. And whilst I accept that you only saw certain things with All or Nothing….how likely is it in your view that a documentary that’s almost entirely centered on Mikel Arteta wouldn’t have shown him speaking to one of his players one on one if that actually happened.

It’s not about being a father figure it’s about understanding players on an individual basis, you’re less likely to end up freezing them out that way. It’s not different styles it’s inability to deal with people.

[IBK]

I don’t think he handled the Auba situation badly at all - quite the opposite. That invisible line you talk about was perfectly visible to me - Arteta very clearly outlined his ‘non-negotiables’ when he took over and made it abundantly clear that his first job was to reset the broken culture at the club. That’s exactly what a working culture is: a set of clear standards and behaviours that you all agree to so everyone knows what is expected of them and everyone understands what falls short. No grey areas. We’re not talking about cutting Auba’s throat after one mistake here - a misunderstanding because the rules weren’t clear - we’re talking about persistent breaches of discipline and a lack of professionalism by our club captain and highest earner. He nearly missed a NLD derby ffs! Arteta fought for him to get that big new contract and he gave him the armband so you can’t tell me it was just a random personal dislike - Auba just took the piss, persistently and over a prolonged period, and it eventually got him removed from the group.

Totally disagree about Arteta lacking personal skills - listen to the younger players, the newer players, the guys at City, etc - basically all the players with high professional standards - and they all love him. The only players I know of who have had a problem with him are all the bums and piss-takers who had incredibly low professional standards - players with terminal bad attitudes or who had been coddled and babied for too many years under Wenger and didn’t like their comfortable social club being turned into a serious place of work again. Who are we talking about here anyway? Auba? Özil? Guendouzi? Kolasinac? Mustafi? Is there anyone on this list of mistreated, misunderstood players who weren’t warned numerous times about their effort, professionalism and/or conduct and who didn’t bring it in themselves, many, many times over?

Again, for me Pepe is something completely different - he’s just a signing who unfortunately hasn’t worked out, but I don’t see any issues between coach and player there around professionalism. The biggest problem for Pepe isn’t the coach - it’s that the market in Europe has collapsed since the pandemic and it’s trapped him here.

:gp:

[IBK]

So you think the best way to deal with someone is to use passive aggressive tactics to humiliate them by making them train by themselves?. What would have happened if we couldn’t have got the Barcelona deal over the line

And he doesn’t have personal skills. When you hear the players talk they talk about how impressed they are with him tactically and his understanding of the game. There’s almost no personal interaction with the players one on one throughout the entire eight episodes. He’s clearly someone who is so introverted he cannot handle that kind of interaction.

What do you regard as personal skills? In a football manager context these have to be skills that get your players playing for you; trusting you; working as a team and believing in the project. It is self-evident that this is happening at our club. What All or Nothing does show is that the collective is everything for Arteta, and there has been a profound culture change in terms of the players seeing themselves as part of a unit. You don't have to be the warmest personality to get the best out of most people - you just need to show that you care. AW in his later years created a Colney creche where players were far too comfortable, and where did that get us? Look at the age profile of our squad. Plenty of young players who generally require more nurturing than more seasoned profesionals, and they look happy. What more do you want?

As for Aubameyang, IMO Arteta did the rigth thing. If the player felt humiliated, then he shouldn't have taken the piss by thinking he was outside the rules that apply to everyone else. Particularly as club captain and someone the other players looked up to. By all accounts he was a serial offender. What was the manager supposed to do if he refused to fall into line?

[IBK]

Don't agree, Emery was weak and needed support so jumped at the chance of having a sycophant like Xhaka there, Freddie likewise and Arteta's been learning on the job and like Emery had a problem with talented players who didn't see the point in running around traffic cones all day

Xhaka's just a talentless creep, any well-established manager with balls would tell him to do one

So much misdirected hyperbole in your post that I don't really know where to start. Wenger signed Xhaka and every one of our managers since has had him as a 'first on the teamsheet' player. For all that he dropped off, Wenger's pedigree and experience is undoubted; Emery didn't flourish at Arsenal, but is hardly unproven or unsuccessful; Arteta came without managerial experience, but has shown that he is not afraid to ditch senior players, and is extremely progressive in how he wants to play the game, and has shown that he has a very clear vision for this. He worked with some of the best players in the worls under Guardiola and should be able to spot a dud one when he sees it. To dismiss the opinions of all these managers in favour of your own shows clear and unjustified bias. But then your description of Xhaka as a talentless creep actually makes my argument for me.

[HCZ_Reborn]

What do you regard as personal skills? In a football manager context these have to be skills that get your players playing for you; trusting you; working as a team and believing in the project. It is self-evident that this is happening at our club. What All or Nothing does show is that the collective is everything for Arteta, and there has been a profound culture change in terms of the players seeing themselves as part of a unit. You don't have to be the warmest personality to get the best out of most people - you just need to show that you care. AW in his later years created a Colney creche where players were far too comfortable, and where did that get us? Look at the age profile of our squad. Plenty of young players who generally require more nurturing than more seasoned profesionals, and they look happy. What more do you want?

As for Aubameyang, IMO Arteta did the rigth thing. If the player felt humiliated, then he shouldn't have taken the piss by thinking he was outside the rules that apply to everyone else. Particularly as club captain and someone the other players looked up to. By all accounts he was a serial offender. What was the manager supposed to do if he refused to fall into line?

I can tell you from personal experience what it’s like to be treated like that, the thing is you have absolutely no idea what the reasons were for him coming back a day later than agreed. We know already that Auba’s mum has been ill, and it doesn’t matter how much you earn you still have human feelings. Arteta doesn’t confront the situation head on he’s going on about all these notes he’s kept of when Auba has been late for training and to me it gives every impression of trying to justify his treatment of a player who is out of form.
Arteta cannot seem to handle players who have big reputations and cannot handle anyone who might question his dictatorial bull suit and passive aggressive personality. But isolating someone and making them come in for pointless training by himself was simply an attempt to humiliate a player he had no interest in using anymore. It forms a pattern of behaviour and it suggests that it will happen again to other players. Arteta is simply hoping that if he continues building a team of players who won’t think for themselves he won’t eventually lose the dressing room.
It’s utterly toxic behaviour and three wins against teams we should be beating doesn’t change that. I went into All or Nothing with an open mind but it utterly cemented to me how Arteta should not be in this job and his inability to deal with people on a human level is why. This goes beyond the hubris of this tactical set up and his transfer philosophy.
I genuinely don’t think the guy is in his right mind, and I hope the board intervenes to relieve him of his post when invariably things go bad (and I just cannot see how they won’t….you’ve got all the ingredients for disaster there)

[Mac76]

So much misdirected hyperbole in your post that I don't really know where to start. Wenger signed Xhaka and every one of our managers since has had him as a 'first on the teamsheet' player. For all that he dropped off, Wenger's pedigree and experience is undoubted; Emery didn't flourish at Arsenal, but is hardly unproven or unsuccessful; Arteta came without managerial experience, but has shown that he is not afraid to ditch senior players, and is extremely progressive in how he wants to play the game, and has shown that he has a very clear vision for this. He worked with some of the best players in the worls under Guardiola and should be able to spot a dud one when he sees it. To dismiss the opinions of all these managers in favour of your own shows clear and unjustified bias. But then your description of Xhaka as a talentless creep actually makes my argument for me.

you're ignoring the core of what i said which is that managers like Arteta and Emery for different reasons feel a need to prove themselves and belittle players who don't do the teachers' pet act.


yes there needs to be discipline but a manager with genuine gravitas is bigger than to put the captain out of the matchday squad because he was late, or criticise Pepe in public for being sent off then turn a blind eye when Xhaka gets a red - it's inconsistent and shows he is biased

you guys can carry on putting pictures of Arteta and Xhaka on your walls if you want but there's plenty of people on here and in the wider fan base who can see Arteta and Xhaka's relationship for the unhealthy arrangement that it is

[I am invisible]

So you think the best way to deal with someone is to use passive aggressive tactics to humiliate them by making them train by themselves?. What would have happened if we couldn’t have got the Barcelona deal over the line

And he doesn’t have personal skills. When you hear the players talk they talk about how impressed they are with him tactically and his understanding of the game. There’s almost no personal interaction with the players one on one throughout the entire eight episodes. He’s clearly someone who is so introverted he cannot handle that kind of interaction.
It wasn’t passive, though - everything was straight-up, to his face, and 100% fair. The rules were made very clear, everyone was given plenty of warning, and Auba breached those rules, over and over again. He was given plenty of second and third chances - this wasn’t a brutal example made after his first offence. We even made him our highest earner and gave him the armband! I’m not sure how much more we could have tried before it came to taking a hard line with him? He really has no one to blame but himself.

I’m with MO on this - Arteta is their manager, not their Dad, and these are grown men at a place of work. If they don’t like how the consequences of stepping out of line feel then they need to grow up and stop pushing boundaries like a bunch of children. I expect the manager to have his players’ backs on a lot of things, particularly external criticisms -fuck anyone not at the club! - but he still has to enforce some basic professional standards otherwise everyone just does what they want, when they want, and it all falls apart.

We tried managing certain players differently for years under Wenger, stepping lightly around them, stroking egos and giving them special treatment, and all it got us was a squad full of pampered, lazy, weak-minded babies who crumbled under any kind of adversity or pressure. None of them deserved the special treatment they got and none of them even responded to it - all we ended up doing was ruining them and the club. We all wanted to see and end to those days - we wanted the culture reset and our standards back - well this is what standards look like.

[I am invisible]

Confirmation bias :bow:
:lol:

Tbf, we all do it. I’m sure my opinion is very much being influenced by one of the guys I have working on my team right now. In terms of his output he’s one of my best designers - we’d really struggle without him - and on a personal level I love him, but he literally never wants to come into the office. We’re only in on Mondays and Wednesdays anyway, but every week I get a messages from him - “Mate, I need to work from home next Monday because…” and “I need to work from home this Wednesday because…” It’s always something… childcare, trains, illness, the weather, he hadn’t read the wfh policy properly, he hadn’t read the extreme weather policy properly (even though he acknowledged that he had), he’s got a delivery coming or a dentist appointment or his front door won’t shut, etc, etc… always on a Monday or a Wednesday. Never anything on its own that sounds unreasonable, but when you look back at the HR records for the year he’s worked from home almost every Monday and Wednesday for nearly 9 months!

I’m not unsympathetic - I’ve sat down with him numerous times now to try to get to the bottom of it, to see if there’s anything we can do to help, because there’s obviously something not right there (his story changes every time, but reading between the lines I think he’s got himself in a lot of debt and is desperately trying to save money where he can on travel and childcare). I approve what I can and fight his corner every time the owner starts asking what’s going on with attendance, but there’s also no getting around the fact that it’s causing problems.

We’ve had to rewrite our wfh policies several times now because of him, my other designers are starting to ask where he is and if they can also wfh to save some money, he’s not around to help mentor the graduates and the juniors, and we’re just spending more and more time having to manage his situation instead of getting on with work. There’s no animosity there between any of us, but there’s no denying that it’s not working for anyone either.

We’re all looking at this thing with Arteta and Auba and assuming there must be some animosity or conflict there, but maybe we’ve all got this completely wrong, myself included? Maybe something has changed in Auba’s personal life that’s changed his behaviour and demeanour, Arteta has noticed and arranged a sit-down to get to the bottom of it, and they’ve come to the conclusion that this isn’t the right project or club (or maybe even the right country) for him right now? Or maybe they’ve agreed that the direction that Arteta wants to take the club in isn’t how Auba wants to work or what he signed up for, that it’s causing him a lot of stress, and it’s best for both parties if they go their separate ways? Again, their doesn’t necessarily have to be any animosity there - we’re all just assuming there is.

[IBK]

I can tell you from personal experience what it’s like to be treated like that, the thing is you have absolutely no idea what the reasons were for him coming back a day later than agreed. We know already that Auba’s mum has been ill, and it doesn’t matter how much you earn you still have human feelings. Arteta doesn’t confront the situation head on he’s going on about all these notes he’s kept of when Auba has been late for training and to me it gives every impression of trying to justify his treatment of a player who is out of form.
Arteta cannot seem to handle players who have big reputations and cannot handle anyone who might question his dictatorial bull suit and passive aggressive personality. But isolating someone and making them come in for pointless training by himself was simply an attempt to humiliate a player he had no interest in using anymore. It forms a pattern of behaviour and it suggests that it will happen again to other players. Arteta is simply hoping that if he continues building a team of players who won’t think for themselves he won’t eventually lose the dressing room.
It’s utterly toxic behaviour and three wins against teams we should be beating doesn’t change that. I went into All or Nothing with an open mind but it utterly cemented to me how Arteta should not be in this job and his inability to deal with people on a human level is why. This goes beyond the hubris of this tactical set up and his transfer philosophy.
I genuinely don’t think the guy is in his right mind, and I hope the board intervenes to relieve him of his post when invariably things go bad (and I just cannot see how they won’t….you’ve got all the ingredients for disaster there)

Funny how you rely on the fact that I don't know the full background behind Aubameyang's departure, yet you draw a number of conclusions about the situation and Arteta when you are in precisely the same position. As a number of people have said on here, relying on All or Nothing to make conclusions as to the manager's relationship with his players is clearly flawed as the vast majority of these interactions do not form part of what is an entertainment show. If you think that we saw the whole story between Arteta and Aubameyang on this series, then you are being rather naive.

Instead, we need to look at the evidence that is available to us as fans and draw conclusions from this. It is obvious that there was no pre-existing issue between Arteta and Aubameyang. Arteta re-signed him on a massive contract - the biggest at the club, and made him captain. He would not have done so if he didn't value Auba and intend the player to be the focal point of the team. You say that Arteta cannot handle big reputations - well he seemed to do so just fine for 2 years - for most of which time Auba performed well, so that rather gives the lie to this general statement. Also - he has signed Jesus and Zinchenko, and worked with superstars at Citeh - so again this conclusion does not stand up.

Also, Aubameyang scored only 4 EPL goals for us in the 2021/22 season before leaving, yet until the fall out was a near ever-present in the team, despite some fans calling for him to be dropped. This suggests strongly that Arteta did not ditch him because he was out of form. Finally, given our dearth of strikers, it was patently obvious that not playing Auba would potentially be detrimental not only to the team but to Arteta as manager. It is unrealistic in these circumstances to suggest that the manager was merely pursuing some personal vendetta against him.

Next - look at Aubameyang's history with his club before Arsenal. He was dropped 3 times for disciplinary reasons when he layed for Dortmund - apperantly for unauthorised trips and failing to turn up to team meetings, and ultimately they got rid of him for repeat offending in this regard. Was Dortmund in on the conspiracy as well? I recall that some people warned of Auba's behaviour before he joined us, and while it is a credit to him that he spent a few years with us without serious issues, it is clear that this pattern ultimately emerged again at Arsenal.

At Arsenal last season, he was late reporting for the NLD - our captain late for the most important fixture in our calendar - yet was only dropped for this game, and not at that stage made to train alone.

I'm afraid that the available evidence points to the player being at fault, not the manager. When faced with repeated breaches of club rules/discipline, what sanctions were available to Arteta? If you are trying to change the culture at a club, why should a 'superstar' be given lassitude that other players are not? Again for me it is obvious that the issue from the manager's pespective was that any player should not be bigger thn the club. You say that being requested to train alone is 'humiliating'. Well failing to turn up on time repeatedly is humiliating for a magager in front of his players, and in these circumstances the player only has himself to blame for the consequences. His evident refusal to repent speaks to a player who has outgrown his club in his own mind, and his departure was the right thing for all concerned.

I think it's difficult to argue that Arsenal has not emerged stronger and more united for the whole sorry episode - and if this continues then for me the pain of last season will be justified.

[IBK]

you're ignoring the core of what i said which is that managers like Arteta and Emery for different reasons feel a need to prove themselves and belittle players who don't do the teachers' pet act.


yes there needs to be discipline but a manager with genuine gravitas is bigger than to put the captain out of the matchday squad because he was late, or criticise Pepe in public for being sent off then turn a blind eye when Xhaka gets a red - it's inconsistent and shows he is biased

you guys can carry on putting pictures of Arteta and Xhaka on your walls if you want but there's plenty of people on here and in the wider fan base who can see Arteta and Xhaka's relationship for the unhealthy arrangement that it is

Again, hyperbole. I am not particularly a Xhaka fanboy, but it does frustrate me that he is regarded as a fundamental problem, when the evidence suggests otherwise.

Every manager needs to prove themself. You are making a massive assumption that Arteta and Emery have sought to do so by backing 'teachers' pets' irrespective of their performances on the pitch, but this makes no sense. Sure, every manager will have a playing style that suits some players more than others - for instance I have sympathy with Pepe whom I think has real talent going forwards but has never looked a fit for Arteta's teams - but this doesn't speak to personal bias.

You talk about managerial gravitas, and by implication criticise Arteta for not having this. There have been planty of managers with so-called 'gravitas' who have not done particularly well in the EPL. What is more important IMO is that a manager gets his team playing well - and whatever your criticism of Arteta he is achieving this. Even more importantly at Arsenal there was a crying need to change the club's culture. Dropping a player who was consistently late or flouted club rules is key to this, and persevering with a player who has been sent off fewer times than his rep would have it (as I point out above) is not inconsistent with this. It depends on what other qualities make up the whole, and for all your criticism of our successive managers it is far more likely that Xhaka has qualities that are regarded as valuable to the team than that they have all kept faith with him simply for being a sychophant.

[Mac76]

I agree the team is playing well - who wouldn't - but that doesn't make me blind to the fact that Xhaka is our weakest link and at some point will cost us again, as others here point out - it's in his DNA and to ignore it is foolish

[Globalgunner]

Being played all the time by different successive managers doesn't mean youre a good player. Harry Maguire has seen about 4 managers. He is crap and now at last a manager has the clarity of vision to see it. If Xhaka reinvents himself this season I will start to believe in Angels and Pixies. He has a lot of work to do for me. He will be 30 this season?, time may be what rids us of him.

[Niall_Quinn]

Watched this game. Was the wrong place at the right time I guess.

Two shit teams who can't play football. Neither could string a pass. Dire stuff, apart from the few moments when Jesus got the ball - he at least demonstrated some degree of skill exists in the game, or the other City bloke touched it, he was man of the insult to football match by a mile, he demonstrated a basic understanding of the purpose of football still exists in some players. Apart from these two, WTF? What's up with that White guy? Has anyone seen a less capable player when it comes to an inability to pass a football even when there's no pressure whatsoever? And that Odegard bloke, or whatever his name is. Yeah, two goals don't cover for. cowardly performance where he did absolutely everything within his power to be out of position and unavailable for the ball. That dick on the wing, that Martinelli bloke. Fuck, now there's a player that has gone downhill. Along with Saka who now takes 5 years to make the simplest and most obvious decision.

Damn, it was hard work watching that shite. I couldn't believe how slow the clock was ticking. But I stuck it out because I promised somebody I'd watch it with them. I want a medal now, for enduring it.

The other team, lol, fuck? Seriously? Premier League? Has to be a joke, right?

[Niall_Quinn]

I agree the team is playing well - who wouldn't - but that doesn't make me blind to the fact that Xhaka is our weakest link and at some point will cost us again, as others here point out - it's in his DNA and to ignore it is foolish

Xhaka? LOL. You must have missed White's entire performance then? Or Martinelli.

[Globalgunner]

White is another teachers pet. Arteta wants to put him in the team by all means. He is not a RB yet Arteta plays him there just to include him. He needs to rotate his 3 CBs and make them all flexible and interchangeable and put Tomi in at RB. Thats what a smart manager would do. Let every player know he is valuable and integrated. Tomi needs the game time as he is our best RB, occasionally let Cedric play against weaker opponents.

Arteta is yet to convince me of actual credentials

[mandela8]

Aye, hopefully Arteta does some rotation tomorrow. He's an absolute melon when it comes to this "stick with a winning team" nonsense. It's entirely self defeating.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Aye, hopefully Arteta does some rotation tomorrow. He's an absolute melon when it comes to this "stick with a winning team" nonsense. It's entirely self defeating.

I actually agree with you

Not clean….not clean

[I am invisible]

Aye, hopefully Arteta does some rotation tomorrow. He's an absolute melon when it comes to this "stick with a winning team" nonsense. It's entirely self defeating.
Yes, this is the next big thing he has to learn as a manager - how to trust his squad and get a tune out of different options (esp. now all the options ones he’s chosen).

[IBK]

Aye, hopefully Arteta does some rotation tomorrow. He's an absolute melon when it comes to this "stick with a winning team" nonsense. It's entirely self defeating.

Good point. This was a real weakness last season, and has to be addressed if we are to sustain our improvement.

[IBK]

I agree the team is playing well - who wouldn't - but that doesn't make me blind to the fact my opinion that Xhaka is our weakest link and at some point will cost us again, as others here point out - it's in his DNA and to ignore it is foolish

I've corrected this for you. Listen you and others are entitled to your opinion, and to respond to GG also I would actually agree that Xhaka is probably a player whom we will and should probably upgrade at some point if we want to push on. But his use by successive managers does speak to the fact that Xhaka is not the fundamental problem that he is painted to be. The past 12 months have shown us if nothing else that players who do not work, or fit into how Arteta wishes to play have been winnowed out. That Xhaka has not been included in this - despite an obvious suitor in Roma - is either because there is no-one else available (doubtful), or that there is a useful role for him in our team. As for 're-invention' - maybe of all our players, Xhaka has shown himself to be the most adaptable, as his role/position has changed a few times. I think that his current re-invention as a more advanced 'box-to-box' role does reflect his frailties as a defensive MF, but if this works then the player and the manager should be acknowledged for achieving this.

Will Xhaka work for us this season? Who knows. But IMO its a reflection of the anti Xhaka bias to attack him on the basis of something that has not happened yet.