Man U reaction and player ratings

[mandela8]

How fuckin predictable. Everything from the ridiculous VAR decision to them just sitting off and picking off on the counter.


Ramsdale 4 - almost as slow as Xhaka on the ball. Will get caught out again and again.

Zinchenko 5 - looked good in the first half. Got caught far too narrow for their goal. That's about it.

Gabriel 4 - looks nervous now.

Saliba 4 - starting to play to their level.

White 4 - Not sure how Arteta can continue to play someone at RB who offers literally nothing going forward.

Lokonga 5 - was fine. The CM was just so open but I'm not sure they know what they're doing with this system sometimes.

Xhaka 3 - offers nothing going forward, nothing going back, terrible off the ball, terrible on. Just a terrible football player.

Odegaard 5 - pretty quiet. Tried a few things but surrounded with dross. Great pass for the goal.

Martinelli 5 - busy but poor end product.

Jesus 6 - actually like a lot of what he done. Occupied their 2 defenders with some good old fashioned no.9 play.

Saka 4 - only ever looks dangerous when he tries to get to the line but almost always cuts in. The number of moves that break down when the ball gets to him is incredible.


Maybe now they've lost Arteta will make some changes.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I can’t remember another game where the coach so directly influenced the result in a negative way.
I’m guilty of a failure of imagination because I knew the midfield we had would cost us but I just wasn’t sure how. I thought United would do what a lot of teams do when they play us, high pressing force us into mistakes. But no they just capitalised on the Space Xhaka left in the middle of the park.
A failure to make our central midfield top 4 standard wasn’t enough for Arteta, he had to compound this by not addressing that we could easily be caught out a second time by removing Xhaka and moving Zinchenko centrally. And no one needs me to tell them the absolute depth charge turd he dropped two minutes before their third.
We do have some decent players we really do, but we are being sandbagged by this coach

I can’t stand Arteta not as a coach, not as a human being. He’s anathema to everything positive this club is trying to achieve

[selassie]

I agree that Arteta played a massive part in todays loss but I thought we defended poorly all game and were naive in terms of game management.

I wasn’t surprised we lost though.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I agree that Arteta played a massive part in todays loss but I thought we defended poorly all game and were naive in terms of game management.

I wasn’t surprised we lost though.

The defence were completely exposed they didn’t have any chance to do anything.

It was 100% on Arteta it wasn’t individual errors, it was disastrous in game management

I don’t think you can even call it naive. I could with another coach but Arteta is such a nasty piece of work, so utterly toxic as a human being I have to put my hands up and say I can’t rule out that it wasn’t deliberate to teach the players some kind of sick lesson.

He needs to go ASAP, he will start setting fire to shit soon

[Chippy]

I agree that Arteta played a massive part in todays loss but I thought we defended poorly all game and were naive in terms of game management.

I wasn’t surprised we lost though.

At least we have coached the best out of Saliba already :rolleyes:

Not surprised either.

[mandela8]

I agree that Arteta played a massive part in todays loss but I thought we defended poorly all game and were naive in terms of game management.

I wasn’t surprised we lost though.

Yep, definitely fair. Thought they all looked a bit nervous fat the back for some reason. Defended very very high against a counter attacking team too...that's maybe instructional but more experienced players would/should adapt.

[HCZ_Reborn]

At least we have coached the best out of Saliba already :rolleyes:

Not surprised either.

Don’t think much needs to be said about Saliba the space in front of him, he never stood a chance.

[HCZ_Reborn]

As I suspected that psychopath Arteta has blamed the players

[Marc Overmars]

Yeah hard to defend Arteta today. At 2-1 the result was still salvageable but I have no idea why he made such drastic changes at that point. We were playing well enough that we would have kept probing (whilst keeping some kind of shape) and may have scored a 2nd with a bit of luck. The third goal was just a complete mess.

Just annoying as fuck. A game we never should have lost.

[Marc Overmars]

At least Fabio Vieira looked ok given the circumstance he was thrown into. Hopefully see a lot more of him now.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’m currently looking at the Hare checklist, to see how many character traits Arteta embodies

- Glibness
- Grandiose sense of self worth
- Lack of Sincerity
- Lack of affect/emotional depth
- Lack of remorse
- Lack of empathy
- Poor behavioural control
- Failure to take responsibility for own Actions
- Impulsivity
- Lack of realistic long term goals


He scores 32 out of 44. Hard to know if he’s an outright psychopath but he has far too many of the traits

[selassie]

The defence were completely exposed they didn’t have any chance to do anything.

It was 100% on Arteta it wasn’t individual errors, it was disastrous in game management

I don’t think you can even call it naive. I could with another coach but Arteta is such a nasty piece of work, so utterly toxic as a human being I have to put my hands up and say I can’t rule out that it wasn’t deliberate to teach the players some kind of sick lesson.

He needs to go ASAP, he will start setting fire to shit soon

Arteta is not responsible for Gabriel and Saliba being miles apart, watch their 2nd and 3rd goals. We pushed up far too high IMO and basically got suckered on the counter. United have done this to us for years regardless of who is in charge of us.

We have the makings of a very good team, but they are still young and IMO naive, as is Arteta. Sure with a Pep, Conte or Klopp in charge we may well have got something from the game but this team is not quite there yet IMO, though we are not far either, we basically went up there today and for large parts of the game dominated them.

[selassie]

At least we have coached the best out of Saliba already :rolleyes:

Not surprised either.

He is still young, as is Gabriel to a degree. Today should be a lesson for them. They were neat and tidy in posession but got the basics of defending wrong IMO, the whole team did. We looked very vulnerable when being attacked, not for the first time this season either.

[selassie]

Yep, definitely fair. Thought they all looked a bit nervous fat the back for some reason. Defended very very high against a counter attacking team too...that's maybe instructional but more experienced players would/should adapt.

We don't normally agree but this I agree with. Defending so high against them was sucidal IMO. I thought both Gabriel and Saliba looked really shaky today, as did the fullbacks.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Arteta is not responsible for Gabriel and Saliba being miles apart, watch their 2nd and 3rd goals. We pushed up far too high IMO and basically got suckered on the counter. United have done this to us for years regardless of who is in charge of us.

We have the makings of a very good team, but they are still young and IMO naive, as is Arteta. Sure with a Pep, Conte or Klopp in charge we may well have got something from the game but this team is not quite there yet IMO, though we are not far either, we basically went up there today and for large parts of the game dominated them.

They were pushed up high because they had no protection from the midfield so they had to do that and risk getting picked off. Plus they were set up tactically to do that

Listen to Arteta’s post match analysis. He’s absolutely encouraging this


I can accept us losing because we weren’t good enough, I can’t accept or tolerate us losing because the coach isn’t right in the head. These were errors in the way we set up that a non league coach could have identified. He sandbagged the players and I honestly can’t rule out that he did it deliberately.

At 1-1 we could have got a point, at 2-1 we could have got a point. At 1-1 Arteta had the option to slow the game down we had zero need to chase the game, we could have taken Xhaka off put Tierney on and moved Zinchenko to the centre. Why not play it safe, a draw at old Trafford isn’t the end of the world.

As average as our midfield was, I was utterly taken aback by how shit United were….they weren’t even premier league level. This was like being beaten away at Coventry.

[selassie]

They were pushed up high because they had no protection from the midfield so they had to do that and risk getting picked off. Plus they were set up tactically to do that

Listen to Arteta’s post match analysis. He’s absolutely encouraging this


I can accept us losing because we weren’t good enough, I can’t accept or tolerate us losing because the coach isn’t right in the head. These were errors in the way we set up that a non league coach could have identified. He sandbagged the players and I honestly can’t rule out that he did it deliberately.

At 1-1 we could have got a point, at 2-1 we could have got a point. At 1-1 Arteta had the option to slow the game down we had zero need to chase the game, we could have taken Xhaka off put Tierney on and moved Zinchenko to the centre. Why not play it safe, a draw at old Trafford isn’t the end of the world.

As average as our midfield was, I was utterly taken aback by how shit United were….they weren’t even premier league level. This was like being beaten away at Coventry.

What are you talking about? We controlled pretty much the entire game!!! Sambi and Xhaka had complete control of the Midfield for large parts of the game. I agree that Arteta cost us the game with those 3 subs but defensively I saw things today that at times were alarming. What we should have done which is probably where we are in agreement is managed the game at 1-1. We should have slowed the game down, dropped a bit deeper and dicatated posession in a more controlled manner. A point today would have been a very good considering we have gone their and comprehensively outplayed them.

[HCZ_Reborn]

What are you talking about? We controlled pretty much the entire game!!! Sambi and Xhaka had complete control of the Midfield for large parts of the game. I agree that Arteta cost us the game with those 3 subs but defensively I saw things today that at times were alarming. What we should have done which is probably where we are in agreement is managed the game at 1-1. We should have slowed the game down, dropped a bit deeper and dicatated posession in a more controlled manner. A point today would have been a very good considering we have gone their and comprehensively outplayed them.

No they didn’t Xhaka left Lokonga exposed time and time again. And every single goal we conceded came about because Eriksen or Fernandes were allowed to waltz through midfield unchallenged. It’s fine to look ok when you’ve got the ball against a championship level team and you’ve got all the space in the world, but it takes a bit more when you don’t have the ball and you’re dealing with players that have a bit of pace. It was embarrassing and totally on Arteta.

These players are enacting a game plan, the guy on the touchline had the opportunity to slow the game down. Take Ben White off it was embarrassing having him as a full back, take Xhaka off it’s embarrassing having him as an Arsenal player and getting Zinchenko and Lokonga to drop back deeper.

[selassie]

No they didn’t Xhaka left Lokonga exposed time and time again.

These players are enacting a game plan, the guy on the touchline had the opportunity to slow the game down. Take Ben White off it was embarrassing having him as a full back, take Xhaka off it’s embarrassing having him as an Arsenal player and getting Zinchenko and Lokonga to drop back deeper.

Or just buy a Proper DM, a reliable one that doesn't miss half of his games to date in his Arsenal career. This team is handicapped when Partey is out. Sambi isn't a DM, Xhaka isn't a DM. Elneny is an OK DM, Partey is a crock, always injured and I'm sick of him TBH.

I actually quite like Sambi, I think he is a decent option at 8, the way he moves the ball is really impressive TBH.

[mandela8]

We don't normally agree but this I agree with. Defending so high against them was sucidal IMO. I thought both Gabriel and Saliba looked really shaky today, as did the fullbacks.

Must be nice for you to be right for once, mate.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Or just buy a Proper DM, a reliable one that doesn't miss half of the games to date in his Arsenal career. This team is handicapped when Partey is out.

I agree but given we didn’t, it was probably not very bright to allow that Albanian moron a free role to meander around the pitch and leaving a 23 year old who has barely played totally exposed. The defenders were too high up and too far apart but if they hadn’t they would have spent most of the game with players bearing down on them because next to no interceptions were being made.
We got to 1-1 the players had managed to get us back into the game despite Arteta’s awful tactical setup. But because he’s more concerned about his ego and being right than getting results. At 2-1, I don’t think anyone can convince me that wasn’t an act of arson by a coach throwing the game in an act of petulance

[Niall_Quinn]

At least we have coached the best out of Saliba already :rolleyes:

Not surprised either.

That goal was just as much Gabriel's fault, and Arteta's by extension. When your partner is so out of position and desperately exposed, as Saliba was, the other CB needs to be aware and provide the cover, or a fullback needs to do the job. But all of them were caught just as they have been caught so regularly for over a decade. The same basics being beyond the reach of the coach and the players.

It's sadder to see how utterly inept Martinelli and Saka are now. Two young and previously unpredictable, attacking minded players who have become just more of the same garbage processed through the Arsenal training regime. Tip, tap, extra touch, extra extra touch, fucking up the final ball with 100% efficiency. Seems like every time a player gats a contract their talent is diminished by 50%

[HCZ_Reborn]

That goal was just as much Gabriel's fault, and Arteta's by extension. When your partner is so out of position and desperately exposed, as Saliba was, the other CB needs to be aware and provide the cover, or a fullback needs to do the job. But all of them were caught just as they have been caught so regularly for over a decade. The same basics being beyond the reach of the coach and the players.

It's sadder to see how utterly inept Martinelli and Saka are now. Two young and previously unpredictable, attacking minded players who have become just more of the same garbage processed through the Arsenal training regime. Tip, tap, extra touch, extra extra touch, fucking up the final ball with 100% efficiency. Seems like every time a player gats a contract their talent is diminished by 50%

Do I assume correctly that you didn’t watch the game?

[selassie]

Must be nice for you to be right for once, mate.

Talking to yourself again ;)

[mandela8]

Or just buy a Proper DM, a reliable one that doesn't miss half of his games to date in his Arsenal career. This team is handicapped when Partey is out. Sambi isn't a DM, Xhaka isn't a DM. Elneny is an OK DM, Partey is a crock, always injured and I'm sick of him TBH.

I actually quite like Sambi, I think he is a decent option at 8, the way he moves the ball is really impressive TBH.

Well, the simple fact of the matter is that this team are mid table without him. No one else comes even close to making the difference to the team he does. He's that good.

He'd have been there in the monumental gap in CM for the first and second goal of theirs. Would've controlled the pace of the game much better too when a tempo change was required.

He's, by far, the single most important player at club.

Anyone who doesn't see this loved being molested by their dad as a child.

[Niall_Quinn]

Do I assume correctly that you didn’t watch the game?

Watched the last 30 minutes. Same old shite. Both teams way below the standard I'd expect for a so-called "premier" league. Players can't pass, have no composure, almost always choose the easy option. Boring and uninspiring.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well, the simple fact of the matter is that this team are mid table without him. No one else comes even close to making the difference to the team he does. He's that good.

He'd have been there in the monumental gap in CM for the first and second goal of theirs. Would've controlled the pace of the game much better too when a tempo change was required.

He's, by far, the single most important player at club.

Anyone who doesn't see this loved being molested by their dad as a child.


I’m convinced social services have a file on you longer than my arm and you slipped away to the states under an assumed identity

[selassie]

Well, the simple fact of the matter is that this team are mid table without him. No one else comes even close to making the difference to the team he does. He's that good.

He'd have been there in the monumental gap in CM for the first and second goal of theirs. Would've controlled the pace of the game much better too when a tempo change was required.

He's, by far, the single most important player at club.

Anyone who doesn't see this loved being molested by their dad as a child.

Yes he is, but he is always injured too. I read a stat the other day he has only played 58% of Arsenal's games since he has been here. He is unreliable, constantly crocked. If Arteta thinks Tierney needs competition with the Zinchenko signing then our priority purchase should be a new DM and we should blow our budget on one. Partey can be a rotation option. We can't build the team around a crocked player.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Watched the last 30 minutes. Same old shite. Both teams way below the standard I'd expect for a so-called "premier" league. Players can't pass, have no composure, almost always choose the easy option. Boring and uninspiring.

I half agree. United definitely weren’t premier league level and with the midfield we have we are at best mid table quality

But Brighton are awful and still managed to win at Old Trafford but because we have a coach that seems to be employing the same tactical set up as Mourinho when he was daring the Chelsea board to fire him in 2015 (the only difference is Arteta is deluded enough to think he will be successful)

For me this felt far more like losing to Forest last year in the fa cup, at least they outplayed us

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yes he is, but he is always injured too. I read a stat the other day he has only played 58% of Arsenal's games since he has been here. He is unreliable, constantly crocked. If Arteta thinks Tierney needs competition with the Zinchenko signing then our priority purchase should be a new DM and we should blow our budget on one. Partey can be a rotation option. We can't build the team around a crocked player.

I don’t even buy into the idea that he’s that good. He stank the place out for months this time last year. Honestly if you don’t believe me watch the game away at Brighton and look how easy it was for them to dispossess him. Similar story a year earlier at Tottenham. Even before he overexerted himself and got injured they were going through him like Sidney Cook’s gang went through Jason Swift.
If he’s our best player we are well and truly fucked.

He’s definitely our best central midfielder but that’s a low bar to hurdle over.

[selassie]

I don’t even buy into the idea that he’s that good. He stank the place out for months this time last year. Honestly if you don’t believe me watch the game away at Brighton and look how easy it was for them to dispossess him. Similar story a year earlier at Tottenham. Even before he overexerted himself and got injured they were going through him like Sidney Cook’s gang went through Jason Swift.
If he’s our best player we are well and truly fucked.

He’s definitely our best central midfielder but that’s a low bar to hurdle over.

He's kind of the most important player in the sense that when he is out the team we really suffer in that area of the pitch. I can't think of one other player in the team who if is out really weakens it, probably Jesus....though Eddie is fast improving. The issue is more to do with a Squad building problem that needs to be addressed in the next window or next summer.

[HCZ_Reborn]

He's kind of the most important player in the sense that when he is out the team we really suffer in that area of the pitch. I can't think of one other player in the team who if is out really weakens it, probably Jesus....though Eddie is fast improving. The issue is more to do with a Squad building problem that needs to be addressed in the next window or next summer.

The point is that’s less about how good Partey is and how shit the other central midfielders are

Why do you think I keep banging on and on and on about this. It’s embarrassing having Xhaka in our midfield…to a degree Partey can cover for his inadequacies and his total lack of discipline but that we’ve spent 300 million since Arteta joined us and that central midfield is the state it is makes me wonder about Arteta’s mental stability.

We have three defenders who cost a combined total of 120 million pound and yet by playing this shite in front of them
We are making them look like amateurs. This is what I mean when I say Arteta is sandbagging his own team.

[selassie]

The point is that’s less about how good Partey is and how shit the other central midfielders are

Why do you think I keep banging on and on and on about this. It’s embarrassing having Xhaka in our midfield…to a degree Partey can cover for his inadequacies and his total lack of discipline but that we’ve spent 300 million since Arteta joined us and that central midfield is the state it is makes me wonder about Arteta’s mental stability.

We have three defenders who cost a combined total of 120 million pound and yet by playing this shite in front of them
We are making them look like amateurs. This is what I mean when I say Arteta is sandbagging his own team.

Cool, lets buy a whole new midfield.

I personally think with an experienced reliable DM this team wouldn't be that far away from being a geniune top 4 team. Despite our good start top 4 is by no means guaranteed this year. City, Spurs and Liverpool will all finish above us, I would be shocked if they don't. We are in a battle with Chelsea and Man Utd for 4th place and I am not confident.

[mandela8]

Yes he is, but he is always injured too. I read a stat the other day he has only played 58% of Arsenal's games since he has been here. He is unreliable, constantly crocked. If Arteta thinks Tierney needs competition with the Zinchenko signing then our priority purchase should be a new DM and we should blow our budget on one. Partey can be a rotation option. We can't build the team around a crocked player.

Ideally, maybe.

But it's really not that straightforward, is it? There's a reason Partey was 50m player and is on 200k per week. Replacing that takes the same again, thereabouts, and clubs like arsenal can't "rotate" that level of expendicture. You know this, so not really sure why you're posting this, tbh.

Apparently he was pretty resilient at Madrid. Weird he's had these issues. Someone like Tierney was predictable, given his history. They must think Partey has just been unlucky, but I'm speculating, clearly.

[selassie]

Ideally, maybe.

But it's really not that straightforward, is it? There's a reason Partey was 50m player and is on 200k per week. Replacing that takes the same again, thereabouts, and clubs like arsenal can't "rotate" that level of expendicture. You know this, so not really sure why you're posting this, tbh.

Apparently he was pretty resilient at Madrid. Weird he's had these issues. Someone like Tierney was predictable, given his history. They must think Partey has just been unlucky, but I'm speculating, clearly.

We were prepared to spend 50m on Raphinha with presumably the same kind of wage per week as say Partey. The money was available for that kind of signing this summer and it should have been made in Central Midfield.

As it stands Partey is only of half use to us, he spends far too much time out injured, he is not reliable and not a solid option, that is a fact. Whether he was resilient at Madrid means nothing now because he is unreliable at Arsenal.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Cool, lets buy a whole new midfield.

I personally think with an experienced reliable DM this team wouldn't be that far away from being a geniune top 4 team. Despite our good start top 4 is by no means guaranteed this year. City, Spurs and Liverpool will all finish above us, I would be shocked if they don't. We are in a battle with Chelsea and Man Utd for 4th place and I am not confident.

You say it flippantly I say it with uptmost sincerity

We don’t need a whole new midfield we just need a better one than we have. Which means dumping Xhaka and Elneny. I’m ok with Lokonga as a squad player, and using Partey rotationally. Douglas Luiz and Tielemans as replacements for those two would exponentially improve the squad

Also we should have sold Tierney to Man City before bringing in Zinchenko.

The money wasted on Ben White we are playing him as a right back because Arteta sunk 50million on him rather than trust Saliba.

The recruitment policy has been a joke for every decent signing we’ve made, we’ve made a totally illogical and unnecessary one.

Thirty million on Skeet Ulrich? I don’t know how any fan with any brains would trust Arteta ever again. He’s a car crash of a manager. The process of building a young side through transfers and academy players is sound, no arguments there. But it can’t be left to a deranged and deluded individual like Arteta to control that process.

I won’t lie I fucking hate the guy, he’s destroying this club. At least Emery was easy to get rid of

[mandela8]

We were prepared to spend 50m on Raphinha with presumably the same kind of wage per week as say Partey. The money was available for that kind of signing this summer and it should have been made in Central Midfield.

As it stands Partey is only of half use to us, he spends far too much time out injured, he is not reliable and not a solid option, that is a fact. Whether he was relisilient at Madrid means nothing now because he is unreliable at Arsenal.

They could justify the outlay out wide given the abject paucity of senior options in that position. That's just not the case for Partey's actual fuckin position :haha:

WTF?

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

So we all agree that we need quality defensive midfielders.....wow, who would have thought??

[Niall_Quinn]

WTF? That White bloke cost £50mill? Wow, that's hilarious.

[selassie]

You say it flippantly I say it with uptmost sincerity

We don’t need a whole new midfield we just need a better one than we have. Which means dumping Xhaka and Elneny. I’m ok with Lokonga as a squad player, and using Partey rotationally. Douglas Luiz and Tielemans as replacements for those two would exponentially improve the squad

Also we should have sold Tierney to Man City before bringing in Zinchenko.

The money wasted on Ben White we are playing him as a right back because Arteta sunk 50million on him rather than trust Saliba.

The recruitment policy has been a joke for every decent signing we’ve made, we’ve made a totally illogical and unnecessary one.

Thirty million on Skeet Ulrich? I don’t know how any fan with any brains would trust Arteta ever again. He’s a car crash of a manager. The process of building a young side through transfers and academy players is sound, no arguments there. But it can’t be left to a deranged and deluded individual like Arteta to control that process.

I won’t lie I fucking hate the guy, he’s destroying this club. At least Emery was easy to get rid of

Look I do kind of agree with you but....you are essentially talking about replacing some squad players here. Sure Xhaka starts but I don't think he will be first choice this time next year if we start to freshen up the Midfield, i mean he is pretty much being shoe-horned into the team at the moment.

I do agree with you on our recruitment, it has been good...but we have made a few unnecessary purchases IMO, good players they are, the team has immediate needs that for one reason or another have been ignored.

I do kind of see what Arteta is doing here though, we are essentially developing into a "Man City lite" in terms of playing style. We move the ball around really well at times and are basically dominating most games. Progress is being made, we look a level above last season IMO, but this team does still have flaws and it's young and naive, as is Arteta.

[selassie]

They could justify the outlay out wide given the abject paucity of senior options in that position. That's just not the case for Partey's actual fuckin position :haha:

WTF?


There is nothing wrong with our wide options compared to Midfield! You have admitted we only have one decent Central Midfielder at the club and he is a complete crock! :lol:

Spend on wide players when you have fixed Central Midfield!!!

[selassie]

At least Fabio Vieira looked ok given the circumstance he was thrown into. Hopefully see a lot more of him now.

I thought he looked really promising TBH. Very tidy on the ball aside from one misplaced pass. I like that he gets stuck in too.

[mandela8]

There is nothing wrong with our wide options compared to Midfield! You have admitted we only have one decent Central Midfielder at the club and he is a complete crock! :lol:

Spend on wide players when you have fixed Central Midfield!!!

wot

I think Partey partnered with Zinchenko is a good midfield. With Lokongo deputizing and possibly Viera an option too. I think Xhaka and Elnonentity are fuckin atrocious but there are other good options in CM.

Not the case for out wide. Sakashit is clearly not good enough, Martinelli is raw...is ESR even a wide player? I'm not sure but I'm sure he's overweight and also injury prone, since that term is out there. Viera possibly?
Wide options are awful and there's zero killer instinct out there. THAT is the biggest issue with this team.

[mandela8]

Just read ESR injured himself in the warm down, ffs.

Nothing wrong with the wide options though...

[KSE Comedy Club]

Our main priority at the end of last season was - make sure we get a decent CM / CDM - pretty much everyone outside of the club knew and could see that was a major area of weakness for us.

But as usual, it didn't happen. Then we spent deadline day low balling Villa, hoping they would roll over, for a crucial area of the squad. :doh:

I don't blame us entirely for that as Villa were being twats, but maybe we should have offered £30m instead, might have got the job done, rather than £20M with £2-3m increments. This isn't the 1990's ffs.

Also, Sambi was pretty solid tbf, Xhaka was a fucking disaster and yet somehow was kept on the pitch for the entire game.

How the fuck Arteta thinks he is good enough is fucking incredible!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Our main priority at the end of last season was - make sure we get a decent CM / CDM - pretty much everyone outside of the club knew and could see that was a major area of weakness for us.

But as usual, it didn't happen. Then we spent deadline day low balling Villa, hoping they would roll over, for a crucial area of the squad. :doh:

I don't blame us entirely for that as Villa were being twats, but maybe we should have offered £30m instead, might have got the job done, rather than £20M with £2-3m increments. This isn't the 1990's ffs.

Also, Sambi was pretty solid tbf, Xhaka was a fucking disaster and yet somehow was kept on the pitch for the entire game.

How the fuck Arteta thinks he is good enough is fucking incredible!

100% agree with that, I honestly think we should have taken the scoreline at 1-1…played Zinchenko in midfield taken Xhaka off and put Tierney on and taken Ben White off for Tomoyasu. Slowed the game down…see if we could draw them in and hit them on the break. Disastrous in game management from Arteta to compound the error made in not buying a central midfielder (arguably two)

Normally 12 hours after a defeat I’ve calmed down a bit, but I’m still fucking livid with Arteta.

[selassie]

Just read ESR injured himself in the warm down, ffs.

Nothing wrong with the wide options though...

Yeah he is injury prone.

I said compared to Central Midfield our Wide options are not that bad. Sure we need to add in this position, just like I believe we need to add another forward. My opinion is Central Midfield should have been a priority position in the Market.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yeah he is injury prone.

I said compared to Central Midfield our Wide options are not that bad. Sure we need to add in this position, just like I believe we need to add another forward. My opinion is Central Midfield should have been a priority position in the Market.

Ah but you’re forgetting that Saka is the shittest player in the team and we all refuse to accept that because we want him to be decent because he’s young and English

I wouldn’t mind if he’d just said Saka is overrated. I am on board with that, I think he overthinks situations and overplays the ball far too much…none of the cover we speak about having for him are natural wide players.

I’m admittedly obsessed with the central midfield almost to the exclusion of other areas. I do think we need more options in attack, but to be honest I’d have a striker that gives us aerial presence before buying a winger.

[Marc Overmars]

I think we’ve reached a stage now with Arteta that we know how to press and move the ball effectively, which is good, however I do worry if there’s some killer instinct missing. Turning games into a rollercoaster isn’t exactly ideal and although we’ve come out on top most of time so far it’s going to level out a lot during the season.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think we’ve reached the stage with Arteta that we can gleam that unlike Klopp there isn’t going to be a turning point that turns us into contenders. We are dealing with someone who whilst they have greater tactical understanding has too many glaring negatives.
This summer and last summer were a disaster in the transfer market. 50 million wasted on Ben White when we didn’t need him, almost 70 million wasted this summer on Zinchenko and Vieira. If we were going to bring in Zinchenko at all which should be dubious as he’s too slow and not good enough defensively or technically it should have been after selling Tierney. Vieira the same unless we were going to sell Smith Rowe

Then we’ve got the right back situation, where two centre backs are playing at right back

This is even before you get to the disaster of central midfield and the clear mismanagement of giving Elneny and Xhaka new contracts.

With the money we’ve spent I actually think a top coach could have identified the kind of players to make us title contenders, as it stands after yesterday I think our chances of top four are zero.

So with a combination of shocking transfer policy and in game management that tanks the team the only question that is left for me is when do the club cut its losses with both Arteta and Edu.

Fans of course will obsess over VAR and other decisions they don’t think went our way, rather than identify correctly that it’s unsustainable to carry on with Arteta. We don’t have the money as a club to waste money the way he does and set us up to fail.

[selassie]

Ah but you’re forgetting that Saka is the shittest player in the team and we all refuse to accept that because we want him to be decent because he’s young and English

I wouldn’t mind if he’d just said Saka is overrated. I am on board with that, I think he overthinks situations and overplays the ball far too much…none of the cover we speak about having for him are natural wide players.

I’m admittedly obsessed with the central midfield almost to the exclusion of other areas. I do think we need more options in attack, but to be honest I’d have a striker that gives us aerial presence before buying a winger.

Yeah I hear you on Saka. I thought he was pretty good yesterday though, starting to come back into form.

Yeah I am the same regarding Central Midfield, I think we are one or maybe two players away from being a great team with the right signings in Central Midfield. I think even players such as Sambi and Vieira are more than capable backups for the number 8 position. Even having a player like Xhaka or Partey as rotation options along with everybody else suddenly makes our Midfield look very strong.

I agree regarding a striker with aerial presence, however I have high hopes for Balogun, he is doing really well out in French this season, I think he is the leading scorer in Ligue One.

[selassie]

I think we’ve reached the stage with Arteta that we can gleam that unlike Klopp there isn’t going to be a turning point that turns us into contenders. We are dealing with someone who whilst they have greater tactical understanding has too many glaring negatives.
This summer and last summer were a disaster in the transfer market. 50 million wasted on Ben White when we didn’t need him, almost 70 million wasted this summer on Zinchenko and Vieira. If we were going to bring in Zinchenko at all which should be dubious as he’s too slow and not good enough defensively or technically it should have been after selling Tierney. Vieira the same unless we were going to sell Smith Rowe

Then we’ve got the right back situation, where two centre backs are playing at right back

This is even before you get to the disaster of central midfield and the clear mismanagement of giving Elneny and Xhaka new contracts.

With the money we’ve spent I actually think a top coach could have identified the kind of players to make us title contenders, as it stands after yesterday I think our chances of top four are zero.

So with a combination of shocking transfer policy and in game management that tanks the team the only question that is left for me is when do the club cut its losses with both Arteta and Edu.

Fans of course will obsess over VAR and other decisions they don’t think went our way, rather than identify correctly that it’s unsustainable to carry on with Arteta. We don’t have the money as a club to waste money the way he does and set us up to fail.

I think you are being a little harsh, yes our transfer priorities have been questionable but we need to give Zinchenko and Vieira time. Zinchenko has been decent so far and Vieira looked good in his cameo yesterday. Yes we have other pressing issues to deal with in the team but I trust they can sort them out, they have to as it's obvious what this team needs.

I am not fully sold on Arteta yet but the team is making big progress now, that is undeniable.

Ben White is a decent option to have covering RB or CB, yes we have overpaid for him but he's a decent option TBH, a reliable performer.

[Globalgunner]

Solution is to drop White to the bench and play Tomi in his natural position. White offers nothing special at RB even though he is giving it a go to please the manager who wants to fit him in by all means. We have 3 decent CB`s, rotate them and make them infinitely flexible and compatible as a back 2. drop Xhaka for all the bove reasons too. He tries but is not of the resuired quality. Vieira was bought for a reason. He should play when Partey is unavailable which will be a lot, make him compatible with Lokonga and Zinchenko or whoever is available to partner Partey

our forward options are good. We need a new striker option as well though. Jesus alone cant score all the goals we need

Arteta is a bust. long winded experiment that has already plateaued in my opinion, especially given the competition we are up against.

We keep playing the football while the opposing team scores the goals

We will see this kind of result against the top 6...and others if Arteta doesnt get his head out of his own ass.

[HCZ_Reborn]

No I’m not being a little harsh, I’m being very harsh. But I’m still fucking furious, I can’t remember the last time a defeat made me so cross….it was so unnecessary.

But in fairness I do have question marks over the transfers, Saliba, Gabriel and White are all very good central defenders I think we’ve honestly got better centre backs than any team in the league currently. But three top centre backs is surplus to requirements….and in fact it’s counter productive because all three are going to insist on playing week in, week out (makes sense) so Ben White is playing at right back because Arteta can’t drop him. Therefore of course with the benefit of hindsight you have to ask was it wise spending fifty million on him?

But at right back we’ve got Tomoyasu (who ain’t a right back and lacks the skill set to be one) and Cedric who is slow and weak


Then we turn to left back, if we need established cover for Tierney because he’s an injury liability why are we keeping him especially when City have shown interest. We could have saved money on what we spent on Zinchenko (still not convinced by him) and kept Tavares as a back up


If anything Arteta has made the central midfield weaker. We had when he came here Torreira and Guendouzi now neither player in my view is great but both better than Xhaka and Elneny. Those two are gone and Xhaka and Elneny are given new contracts why?
Partey yes he’s a good midfielder but it’s shocking that you pointed out that he’s only played 58% of our league games (shocking but not sadly surprising). And Lokonga is ok but still inferior to Torreira and Guendouzi

Odegaard? I mean I hate to say it but when has he been anything but anonymous in games like the ones yesterday. Vieira makes sense as a purchase only if we hadn’t bought Odegaard to begin with

The main issue with our squad is that it’s not balanced well, and I think the quixotic nature of our summer spending if anything only adds to it

[selassie]

No I’m not being a little harsh, I’m being very harsh. But I’m still fucking furious, I can’t remember the last time a defeat made me so cross….it was so unnecessary.

But in fairness I do have question marks over the transfers, Saliba, Gabriel and White are all very good central defenders I think we’ve honestly got better centre backs than any team in the league currently. But three top centre backs is surplus to requirements….and in fact it’s counter productive because all three are going to insist on playing week in, week out (makes sense) so Ben White is playing at right back because Arteta can’t drop him. Therefore of course with the benefit of hindsight you have to ask was it wise spending fifty million on him?

But at right back we’ve got Tomoyasu (who ain’t a right back and lacks the skill set to be one) and Cedric who is slow and weak


Then we turn to left back, if we need established cover for Tierney because he’s an injury liability why are we keeping him especially when City have shown interest. We could have saved money on what we spent on Zinchenko (still not convinced by him) and kept Tavares as a back up


If anything Arteta has made the central midfield weaker. We had when he came here Torreira and Guendouzi now neither player in my view is great but both better than Xhaka and Elneny. Those two are gone and Xhaka and Elneny are given new contracts why?
Partey yes he’s a good midfielder but it’s shocking that you pointed out that he’s only played 58% of our league games (shocking but not sadly surprising). And Lokonga is ok but still inferior to Torreira and Guendouzi

Odegaard? I mean I hate to say it but when has he been anything but anonymous in games like the ones yesterday. Vieira makes sense as a purchase only if we hadn’t bought Odegaard to begin with

The main issue with our squad is that it’s not balanced well, and I think the quixotic nature of our summer spending if anything only adds to it

I feel your pain. I am angry too hence why I have been actively posting since the game. It's a difficult to defeat to take especially against those lot who are talking up their victory like it was a walk in the park.

What has pissed me off more than anything is that even a draw yesterday would have sent out a big statement considering we controlled pretty much the entire game.

It is what it is, let's hope we recover from that and go on another mini winning run, this team is clearly capable of that.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It was a walk in the park for them. I don’t believe they will score three easier goals

[selassie]

It was a walk in the park for them. I don’t believe they will score three easier goals

It wasn't a walk in the park. We were not clinical and defended poorly. Aside from the first 15 minutes, they had no control over the game whatsoever, it's not like we just dominated possession, we created plenty of chances too.

What we need to learn from yesterday is to not go to places such as Spurs or Chelsea and defend like that, even say a West Ham or Newcastle. We need to be going to these grounds dominating the ball like we did yesterday but being streetwise too, slowing the game down, doing the dark arts stuff.

Up until this season, we would go to Old Trafford and places like that and actually get outplayed, yesterday was different as is the development of this team. I think we can take a lot of positives from yesterday, the issues we saw can be fixed.

I know some people can view this as an excuse but it is a young team with a young manager. We are not going to get perfect performances against our rivals away from home. Now we are at the stage where we look like a team with high technical potential and the ability to dominate the ball, refining the other sides of our game should be something that can be worked on. That performance yesterday would have got us 3 points against most teams outside of the top 6 IMO.

[Letters]

I think we’ve reached the stage with Arteta that we can gleam that unlike Klopp there isn’t going to be a turning point that turns us into contenders.
I don't think that's a revelation, no one of here really thought he could do that. Personally though I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt while we are making progress under him, which I'd suggest we clearly have.
I don't know if that will continue this year, there have been some good signs and some signs of old frailties. But the season is still quite young. It's going to be tough out there this year.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't think that's a revelation, no one of here really thought he could do that. Personally though I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt while we are making progress under him, which I'd suggest we clearly have.
I don't know if that will continue this year, there have been some good signs and some signs of old frailties. But the season is still quite young. It's going to be tough out there this year.

The fact is if you spend 300million you would expect that to have occurred by now. Already qualified for 4th, already making inroads towards a title challenge

[HCZ_Reborn]

It wasn't a walk in the park. We were not clinical and defended poorly. Aside from the first 15 minutes, they had no control over the game whatsoever, it's not like we just dominated possession, we created plenty of chances too.

What we need to learn from yesterday is to not go to places such as Spurs or Chelsea and defend like that, even say a West Ham or Newcastle. We need to be going to these grounds dominating the ball like we did yesterday but being streetwise too, slowing the game down, doing the dark arts stuff.

Up until this season, we would go to Old Trafford and places like that and actually get outplayed, yesterday was different as is the development of this team. I think we can take a lot of positives from yesterday, the issues we saw can be fixed.

I know some people can view this as an excuse but it is a young team with a young manager. We are not going to get perfect performances against our rivals away from home. Now we are at the stage where we look like a team with high technical potential and the ability to dominate the ball, refining the other sides of our game should be something that can be worked on. That performance yesterday would have got us 3 points against most teams outside of the top 6 IMO.

But that’s why it was a walk in the park, they didn’t have to excel. In defence they couldn’t excel and in attack they didn’t need to it was alarmingly easy for them. I can’t imagine many of them broke a sweat.

It wasn’t possible for them to play any worse than they did

But we will leave it to the end of the season to judge, if they score any goal that was any more gift wrapped to them between now and the end of the season than the three they got yesterday were I’ll take it back and say it wasn’t a stroll in the park.

[Letters]

The fact is if you spend 300million you would expect that to have occurred by now. Already qualified for 4th, already making inroads towards a title challenge

Well. I kinda agree progress has been slow given the level of investment. I think we'd have finished top 4 last year had Auba not flounced out. I don't think you can entirely blame Arteta for that.
They're a young squad, they should in theory get better. They seem to be buying in to "the process". I'm content to give them this season. If we don't progress then fine, #ArtetaOut. But changing a manager can set you back too so we'd need to be careful about who we get in.

[selassie]

The fact is if you spend 300million you would expect that to have occurred by now. Already qualified for 4th, already making inroads towards a title challenge

The team needed 300 million pounds worth of investment at a minimum. The squad was a complete mess a few years ago, ageing players on big contracts who were stinking up the place with their performances and their attitude.

I expect Top 4 this season, but it won't be easy. We are up against other teams that have spent well in excess of 300 million over the past few seasons too so it's not like we are the only team spending.

Do I think our progress would have been further with a more experienced manager? Most likely yes....do I think Arteta is the right man to lead us to a title challenge? No... However I do think that competition is fierce now, look at what all our rivals spent this summer, it's not like we are the only team spending vast amounts on recruitment. Also, look at the Managers in the place at all our rivals, they are all seasoned winners, all of them have won domestic titles with the exception of Arteta. If we really want to improve then we should be targeting an elite Manager or one close to the level of our rivals.

[Marc Overmars]

He inherited a mess. A squad full of overpaid players past their best, coasting on contracts because no one else would be dumb enough to offer what we did. The investment was needed and so was the entire restructuring of the wage bill and profile of player we signed. He pulled them together to win the FA Cup which rightly earned him some credit to play with, then he systematically flogged almost everyone over the course of the last few transfer windows and now has a first team of players who are almost all his signings.

3 years is a fair amount of time for any coach, especially a rookie. If he doesn’t get us into the top 4 this year then you have to seriously consider whether it will ever happen with him. I’m ok with where we are at the moment and for once looking forward to seeing how things transpire this season.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t think things were that bad. Apart from the fact that for reasons I couldn’t fathom we were starting Joe Willock in games, the squad wasn’t terrible. We had functional strike force in Auba and Lacazette.

I don’t rate Pepe but actually could have been used better

The midfield is actually worse now than it was then. Defence was pretty rubbish admittedly.

Arteta it feels to me fell out with too many of these players because he didn’t have the personality to manage them properly. Someone who isn’t so thin skinned and can actually interact with people on a one on one basis maybe wouldn’t have found themselves needing to junk most of the team for next to nothing.

It feels that the club have persevered with Arteta in a way it didn’t with Emery despite nothing Arteta has done has shown he deserves that patience.

I am utterly convinced that we will look back on his tenure as coach as being an utterly dismal failure (as we should)

[Marc Overmars]

I don’t think things were that bad. Apart from the fact that for reasons I couldn’t fathom we were starting Joe Willock in games, the squad wasn’t terrible. We had functional strike force in Auba and Lacazette.

I don’t rate Pepe but actually could have been used better

The midfield is actually worse now than it was then. Defence was pretty rubbish admittedly.

Arteta it feels to me fell out with too many of these players because he didn’t have the personality to manage them properly. Someone who isn’t so thin skinned and can actually interact with people on a one on one basis maybe wouldn’t have found themselves needing to junk most of the team for next to nothing.

It feels that the club have persevered with Arteta in a way it didn’t with Emery despite nothing Arteta has done has shown he deserves that patience.

I am utterly convinced that we will look back on his tenure as coach as being an utterly dismal failure (as we should)

Emery is a good coach but wasn’t the right fit for us. He also worked with Sanllehi and Mislintat who bombed really as far as recruitment goes, all 3 of them were sent packing within months of each other. Persevering with Emery was never really an option with such a mess at executive level too. Plus as far as I’m concerned those players completely downed tools at the back end of that season, the league form fell off a cliff and that culminated in the Europa League final disaster. The hangover from that continued and led to his sacking the following season.

Anyway as for Arteta that’s fine if you think this is going to end in tears, a part of me thinks it will too mainly because Arsenal have conditioned me to think that way due to recent history, however I feel like we’re still some way off pressing the panic button. He’s been given the time Emery wasn’t because the club actively pushed the self-destruct button and started again, rather than just try to repair something that was long broken. Also, you have to give a rookie time otherwise what’s the point? The club had to have some courage of its convictions with him.

As I said though, 3 years is fair and he’s been backed enormously. We must be playing CL next season.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Small part of me hopes we don’t get top four so we can be rid of him, as far as I’m concerned he should have been binned off two years ago. I still haven’t forgiven him for that run between October and December of 2020 (losing seven games in eleven). We’ve lost too many games under him - 32 in 102…utterly disgraceful, we don’t score enough goals and to be honest I don’t even find the football we play enjoyable to watch.
Fortunately it doesn’t exist here but I think there’s a weird cult of Arteta on the internet, I think imbecile fans like that we are spending money so they put the doubts to one side.

I simply can’t see it not ending in tears, I’m just worried that the club won’t pull the plug when the time comes and won’t show Edu the door with him.

I never hated Wenger I just got frustrated with him, I hate Arteta with a passion…I think he’s an utter conman and a narcissist like Mourinho but without even the charisma to go with it.
I feel sorry for any club that he ends up going to after us, if there’s any justice it will be the end of his managerial career as no club deserves the absolute shit he’s inflicted on us.

32 fucking defeats….makes me dry heave

[Marc Overmars]

Yeah I’d agree that we lose too many games. For some reason we don’t seem to draw anymore. :wacko:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yeah I’d agree that we lose too many games. For some reason we don’t seem to draw anymore. :wacko:

Made Amazon’s ubiquitous All or Nothing title especially fitting

[Letters]

Holy shit. I was just reminded that when Arteta took over we were in the middle of a horrible league run

After 25 games we were:

P25 W6 D13 L6 F32 A34 GD-2 Pts31

For comparison West Ham were third from bottom on 24 points.

[Letters]

Yeah I’d agree that we lose too many games. For some reason we don’t seem to draw anymore. :wacko:

13 games lost in the league in each of the last 2 seasons. We mitigated that last year by winning a lot too, but yeah, nowhere near good enough. Have to cut that out this season.

[Mac76]

Arteta it feels to me fell out with too many of these players because he didn’t have the personality to manage them properly. Someone who isn’t so thin skinned and can actually interact with people on a one on one basis maybe wouldn’t have found themselves needing to junk most of the team for next to nothing.



This

It's absolutely what's at the core of his problem and why he puts a sycophantic arse like Xhaka first on the team sheet

He's also failed to correct basic failings in players like Saka which shows he's not a good coach either

[selassie]

I'm basically giving Arteta this season. If he delivers Champions League Football then he should be given next season. I want to see progress too, more wins, less losses.

Arteta has plenty of faults and he probably isn't the man to take us back to the top, but he should be given this season to see how things pan out.

If he does not deliver Champions League football then he should be fired.

[Letters]

:gp:

That’s where I am. There has been progress, we can debate whether it’s been quick enough but it’s been there. He’s now got a young squad who seem to buy in to his methods, so we need to see more progress this year. If we don’t then I won’t bear him any ill will. I basically like him and he was always a bit of a punt.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm basically giving Arteta this season. If he delivers Champions League Football then he should be given next season. I want to see progress too, more wins, less losses.

Arteta has plenty of faults and he probably isn't the man to take us back to the top, but he should be given this season to see how things pan out.

If he does not deliver Champions League football then he should be fired.

I'm giving the next guy 3 wins in a row and a 98 million quid transfer coup - at the VERY least. Before I cream my pants again.

Around and around.

[selassie]

I'm giving the next guy 3 wins in a row and a 98 million quid transfer coup - at the VERY least. Before I cream my pants again.

Around and around.

Good for you.

[IBK]

Decided to wait a couple of days before commenting. Selassie - good to see you on form mate. Agree with much of what you have said.

I still feel gutted at the loss to those wankers, and the manner of it, but I want to try to be balanced here.

First the bad. We were undone by a team that was more effective and efficient than we were. Domminating possessions and controlling the game for long periods is all weel and good. But if we want to beat top teams - and in terms of the players at their disposal and recent upswing in form, Manure are a top team - we cannot afford to squander gilt-edged goal chances. We have to be more ruthless. For me, this is a team responsibility, and looking at individual errors as the reason for our loss is IMO misleading. Every team makes individual errors in every game.

The other issue I have been thinking about is emotional game state. The players need cooler heads in the big moments. If anything, they tried too hard once we were 2-1 down. In a sense this not unexpected given their average age. However the same goes for Arteta. I think the triple substitution was partly down to Arteta getting carried away with the occasion. This tendency was also on show memorably at the Liverpool Arsenal EPL game last season, with similar detrimental consequences for his team. But we have to remember that our manager is also relatively inexperienced.

Now the balance. Anyone expecting us to go to OT against a newly confident team full of talent and not find it difficult was naive. In the mood they were in and with a home crowd influencing the referee I think that all of our 'competitors' bar Citeh would have come unstuck. I was hoping for a draw, and our performance deserved this. Martinelli's goal should have stuck - it was a nonsense to have this chalked off when the ref saw Odegard's foul and waved play on. Had it done so it was a totally different game as Manure's counter-attacking plan would have been scuppered and they would have had to play higher up the pitch. The triple sub aside, IMO it was right for us to keep attacking for another goal after going 2-1 down. Yes we were keeping a high line that made us vulnerable but their 3rd goal is what can happen when you are chasing a game - not much more than that. I'm not going to stress about the eventual scoreline for thsi reason.

Finally - and yes we can debate transfer issues, but I don't think these are really part of a post game analysis - we went into this game missing our first choice and back up DM's, and against United this was always going to hurt. Would Manure have won without Fernandes or Eriksson? People are entitled to go to town on the manager, but I thought we performed well playing our 3rd choice CM (Lokonga), and ultimately, I don't even think that this is why we lost the match.

So small margins really, and while of course its top 4 or bust this season, I'm not going to ignore our great start to the season and write off the rest of it after a bum result - however much the pundits' narrative is otherwise.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Decided to wait a couple of days before commenting. Selassie - good to see you on form mate. Agree with much of what you have said.

I still feel gutted at the loss to those wankers, and the manner of it, but I want to try to be balanced here.

First the bad. We were undone by a team that was more effective and efficient than we were. Domminating possessions and controlling the game for long periods is all weel and good. But if we want to beat top teams - and in terms of the players at their disposal and recent upswing in form, Manure are a top team - we cannot afford to squander gilt-edged goal chances. We have to be more ruthless. For me, this is a team responsibility, and looking at individual errors as the reason for our loss is IMO misleading. Every team makes individual errors in every game.

The other issue I have been thinking about is emotional game state. The players need cooler heads in the big moments. If anything, they tried too hard once we were 2-1 down. In a sense this not unexpected given their average age. However the same goes for Arteta. I think the triple substitution was partly down to Arteta getting carried away with the occasion. This tendency was also on show memorably at the Liverpool Arsenal EPL game last season, with similar detrimental consequences for his team. But we have to remember that our manager is also relatively inexperienced.

Now the balance. Anyone expecting us to go to OT against a newly confident team full of talent and not find it difficult was naive. In the mood they were in and with a home crowd influencing the referee I think that all of our 'competitors' bar Citeh would have come unstuck. I was hoping for a draw, and our performance deserved this. Martinelli's goal should have stuck - it was a nonsense to have this chalked off when the ref saw Odegard's foul and waved play on. Had it done so it was a totally different game as Manure's counter-attacking plan would have been scuppered and they would have had to play higher up the pitch. The triple sub aside, IMO it was right for us to keep attacking for another goal after going 2-1 down. Yes we were keeping a high line that made us vulnerable but their 3rd goal is what can happen when you are chasing a game - not much more than that. I'm not going to stress about the eventual scoreline for thsi reason.

Finally - and yes we can debate transfer issues, but I don't think these are really part of a post game analysis - we went into this game missing our first choice and back up DM's, and against United this was always going to hurt. Would Manure have won without Fernandes or Eriksson? People are entitled to go to town on the manager, but I thought we performed well playing our 3rd choice CM (Lokonga), and ultimately, I don't even think that this is why we lost the match.

So small margins really, and while of course its top 4 or bust this season, I'm not going to ignore our great start to the season and write off the rest of it after a bum result - however much the pundits' narrative is otherwise.

I’m kind of 95% in agreement with what you’ve said

There are a couple of slight variances on my part. One the game wasn’t difficult, United were utterly pathetic not a single one of their players deserved more than a 5 with the exception of maybe Antony. But the game proved beyond any doubt what an utter liability Granit Xhaka is. They scored three goals as a result of having the freedom of Old Trafford. Other than that I actually genuinely think Bournemouth gave us a harder time than United. We naively pushed up too high because Arteta was incensed by the VAR decision (sorry it was a foul) and his arrogance refused to let us slow thing downs when we’d got ourselves back into the game.
We are as we know very wasteful in front of goal and we don’t counter attack well, United were able to score three goals under zero pressure.

[mandela8]

Decided to wait a couple of days before commenting. Selassie - good to see you on form mate. Agree with much of what you have said.

I still feel gutted at the loss to those wankers, and the manner of it, but I want to try to be balanced here.

First the bad. We were undone by a team that was more effective and efficient than we were. Domminating possessions and controlling the game for long periods is all weel and good. But if we want to beat top teams - and in terms of the players at their disposal and recent upswing in form, Manure are a top team - we cannot afford to squander gilt-edged goal chances. We have to be more ruthless. For me, this is a team responsibility, and looking at individual errors as the reason for our loss is IMO misleading. Every team makes individual errors in every game.

The other issue I have been thinking about is emotional game state. The players need cooler heads in the big moments. If anything, they tried too hard once we were 2-1 down. In a sense this not unexpected given their average age. However the same goes for Arteta. I think the triple substitution was partly down to Arteta getting carried away with the occasion. This tendency was also on show memorably at the Liverpool Arsenal EPL game last season, with similar detrimental consequences for his team. But we have to remember that our manager is also relatively inexperienced.

Now the balance. Anyone expecting us to go to OT against a newly confident team full of talent and not find it difficult was naive. In the mood they were in and with a home crowd influencing the referee I think that all of our 'competitors' bar Citeh would have come unstuck. I was hoping for a draw, and our performance deserved this. Martinelli's goal should have stuck - it was a nonsense to have this chalked off when the ref saw Odegard's foul and waved play on. Had it done so it was a totally different game as Manure's counter-attacking plan would have been scuppered and they would have had to play higher up the pitch. The triple sub aside, IMO it was right for us to keep attacking for another goal after going 2-1 down. Yes we were keeping a high line that made us vulnerable but their 3rd goal is what can happen when you are chasing a game - not much more than that. I'm not going to stress about the eventual scoreline for thsi reason.

Finally - and yes we can debate transfer issues, but I don't think these are really part of a post game analysis - we went into this game missing our first choice and back up DM's, and against United this was always going to hurt. Would Manure have won without Fernandes or Eriksson? People are entitled to go to town on the manager, but I thought we performed well playing our 3rd choice CM (Lokonga), and ultimately, I don't even think that this is why we lost the match.

So small margins really, and while of course its top 4 or bust this season, I'm not going to ignore our great start to the season and write off the rest of it after a bum result - however much the pundits' narrative is otherwise.

Nice and balanced.

I think the simple reality is that if Arsenal had just one more player who had a real cutting edge to them in front of goal they'd have probably won this game and many other games they lose points in.

It's a pretty huge problem for them.

[selassie]

Decided to wait a couple of days before commenting. Selassie - good to see you on form mate. Agree with much of what you have said.

I still feel gutted at the loss to those wankers, and the manner of it, but I want to try to be balanced here.

First the bad. We were undone by a team that was more effective and efficient than we were. Domminating possessions and controlling the game for long periods is all weel and good. But if we want to beat top teams - and in terms of the players at their disposal and recent upswing in form, Manure are a top team - we cannot afford to squander gilt-edged goal chances. We have to be more ruthless. For me, this is a team responsibility, and looking at individual errors as the reason for our loss is IMO misleading. Every team makes individual errors in every game.

The other issue I have been thinking about is emotional game state. The players need cooler heads in the big moments. If anything, they tried too hard once we were 2-1 down. In a sense this not unexpected given their average age. However the same goes for Arteta. I think the triple substitution was partly down to Arteta getting carried away with the occasion. This tendency was also on show memorably at the Liverpool Arsenal EPL game last season, with similar detrimental consequences for his team. But we have to remember that our manager is also relatively inexperienced.

Now the balance. Anyone expecting us to go to OT against a newly confident team full of talent and not find it difficult was naive. In the mood they were in and with a home crowd influencing the referee I think that all of our 'competitors' bar Citeh would have come unstuck. I was hoping for a draw, and our performance deserved this. Martinelli's goal should have stuck - it was a nonsense to have this chalked off when the ref saw Odegard's foul and waved play on. Had it done so it was a totally different game as Manure's counter-attacking plan would have been scuppered and they would have had to play higher up the pitch. The triple sub aside, IMO it was right for us to keep attacking for another goal after going 2-1 down. Yes we were keeping a high line that made us vulnerable but their 3rd goal is what can happen when you are chasing a game - not much more than that. I'm not going to stress about the eventual scoreline for thsi reason.

Finally - and yes we can debate transfer issues, but I don't think these are really part of a post game analysis - we went into this game missing our first choice and back up DM's, and against United this was always going to hurt. Would Manure have won without Fernandes or Eriksson? People are entitled to go to town on the manager, but I thought we performed well playing our 3rd choice CM (Lokonga), and ultimately, I don't even think that this is why we lost the match.

So small margins really, and while of course its top 4 or bust this season, I'm not going to ignore our great start to the season and write off the rest of it after a bum result - however much the pundits' narrative is otherwise.

:gp:

Great analysis as always IBK, nice seeing you on here.

[Letters]

Only seen a few highlights. Bit annoyed by their 3rd goal. You can't play a line that high, it's too easy to spring as people can't be offside in their own half. That was pretty naive.

[Mac76]

Only seen a few highlights. Bit annoyed by their 3rd goal. You can't play a line that high, it's too easy to spring as people can't be offside in their own half. That was pretty naive.

it's like people say, we got over excited and were pressing forward including the defence - Arteta needs to have them playing more sensibly there - as i said before the game I could take a defeat by the odd goal, as the game then still looks close, but they were allowed to make it a really convincing win

[HCZ_Reborn]

I accepted the possibility/likelihood of defeat before the game. After the game I’m utterly incensed, as bad as our midfield options were that we allowed ourselves to be sucker punched by a clearly pathetic United side was unacceptable and as I still maintain 100% Arteta’s fault

[Letters]

I don’t think you can 100% blame a manager for a result, particularly when we dominate as we did.
I only saw brief highlights but obviously there was the disallowed goal (correctly in my view, but you see things like that given). And Odergard missed a pretty easy chance, you can’t blame the manager for that. There are fine lines in football, particularly in games like this.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t think you can 100% blame a manager for a result, particularly when we dominate as we did.
I only saw brief highlights but obviously there was the disallowed goal (correctly in my view, but you see things like that given). And Odergard missed a pretty easy chance, you can’t blame the manager for that. There are fine lines in football, particularly in games like this.

In most instances you can’t but here you absolutely can. We got back into the game at 1-1. In a game we didn’t need to win and most fans would have totally taken a draw from…he had the opportunity to settle things down and his arrogant hubris prevented him from doing so.

[Chippy]

In most instances you can’t but here you absolutely can. We got back into the game at 1-1. In a game we didn’t need to win and most fans would have totally taken a draw from…he had the opportunity to settle things down and his arrogant hubris prevented him from doing so.

This.

[Xhaka Can’t]

We didn’t lose this game when we went 2-1 down. At that point we had the run of play but were less effective than United at putting our chances away. There was still the opportunity to equalise and I didn’t feel this was done as a contest.

Then comes the triple substitution. At that point we lost our shape, impetus and composure. At that point we had thrown the game and went on to immediately concede the goal that ended the game as a contest. We went from having balance of play to damage limitation.

The team he put out there for the final twenty minutes mirrored Arteta’s public display of loss of composure. There is no way anyone who watched that can’t come to the conclusion that the loss and the manner of it wasn’t down to Arteta.

[IBK]

I’m kind of 95% in agreement with what you’ve said

There are a couple of slight variances on my part. One the game wasn’t difficult, United were utterly pathetic not a single one of their players deserved more than a 5 with the exception of maybe Antony. But the game proved beyond any doubt what an utter liability Granit Xhaka is. They scored three goals as a result of having the freedom of Old Trafford. Other than that I actually genuinely think Bournemouth gave us a harder time than United. We naively pushed up too high because Arteta was incensed by the VAR decision (sorry it was a foul) and his arrogance refused to let us slow thing downs when we’d got ourselves back into the game.
We are as we know very wasteful in front of goal and we don’t counter attack well, United were able to score three goals under zero pressure.

It's an interesting concept as to whether Manure were 'diffcult' to play against. In a sense I agree that they were 'pathetic' for all bar the first 10 minutes in terms of playing football. We controlled the game and they were forced into getting everyone back and defending - but they did that well, and were disciplined in this. What they were however was really smart. They adapted well to our tactics (their manager would have anticipated our high line from the outset), and realising that they could not go toe to toe with us in terms of general game control, they quickly realised that we were vulnerable to a long ball down the middle. You can be generally effective as you want in terms of stopping the delivery route in this regard, but even Citeh cannot do this 100% (as their result at Villa showed), and we certainly failed to do this in the key moments. 'Pathetic' as they might have been for long periods, they have the likes of Erikson; Fernandes and Rashford who can kill you in this regard if given half a chance. Disagree with you re their player ratings BTW - Rashford and Erikson were good in this game. You only need to win the key moments, not the 90 minutes, and we need to up our game in this regard against the top teams.

Re 'the' foul - I agree that ths was probably one (albeit soft). I do take issue with whether VAR should have revisited this when it was not blown for at the time - and like so many others, for me the maddening thing is both the reversal of these types of real time marginal decisions well away from the goalmouth (that VAR was never intended to do), and the huge inconsistency that has seen other goals stand in similar circumstances. Make no mistake - Ten Hag realised that their best bet was to give us the freedom of the pitch and hit us on the counter - and had our goal stood this tactic would have been shredded to our advantage. Manure got the breaks as they always seem to do against us.

Was it naive to play so far up the pitch? Perhaps, but for me not as egregious as it might immediately seem. This is how Arteta wants to play, and it will leave counter attacking opportunities. Again, the answer for me is not to alter our game plan and therefore invite the opposition onto a defence that can often be less than perfect - but to ensure that our tactic is effective by not having to have 5 clear chances to score one goal. Arteta seems to understand this - hence his wish for more firepower. It is unfortunate that this aim appears to have been scuppered by our CM injuries that changed the emphasis to chasing a midfielder at the last minute - which was unsuccessful. What was naive was to get carried away both by the game state where we were dominating the opposition, and by the desire to get back into the game (the triple sub encapsulated this).

Now the contentious point. Their goals were not, IMO principally due to Granit Xhaka. IMO these were generally down to team issues, not individuals. But if you want to single out individuals, Martinelli regularly failed to track his man and this was the starting issue for one of their goals; Lokonga was average off the ball and the same could be said of him for another; and Gabriel M did not have a great game and the Central Defenders (and Zinchenko) were too loose. Xhaka suffers from confirmation bias too much for me - but that's another story and I know we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It's an interesting concept as to whether Manure were 'diffcult' to play against. In a sense I agree that they were 'pathetic' for all bar the first 10 minutes in terms of playing football. We controlled the game and they were forced into getting everyone back and defending - but they did that well, and were disciplined in this. What they were however was really smart. They adapted well to our tactics (their manager would have anticipated our high line from the outset), and realising that they could not go toe to toe with us in terms of general game control, they quickly realised that we were vulnerable to a long ball down the middle. You can be generally effective as you want in terms of stopping the delivery route in this regard, but even Citeh cannot do this 100% (as their result at Villa showed), and we certainly failed to do this in the key moments. 'Pathetic' as they might have been for long periods, they have the likes of Erikson; Fernandes and Rashford who can kill you in this regard if given half a chance. Disagree with you re their player ratings BTW - Rashford and Erikson were good in this game. You only need to win the key moments, not the 90 minutes, and we need to up our game in this regard against the top teams.

Re 'the' foul - I agree that ths was probably one (albeit soft). I do take issue with whether VAR should have revisited this when it was not blown for at the time - and like so many others, for me the maddening thing is both the reversal of these types of real time marginal decisions well away from the goalmouth (that VAR was never intended to do), and the huge inconsistency that has seen other goals stand in similar circumstances. Make no mistake - Ten Hag realised that their best bet was to give us the freedom of the pitch and hit us on the counter - and had our goal stood this tactic would have been shredded to our advantage. Manure got the breaks as they always seem to do against us.

Was it naive to play so far up the pitch? Perhaps, but for me not as egregious as it might immediately seem. This is how Arteta wants to play, and it will leave counter attacking opportunities. Again, the answer for me is not to alter our game plan and therefore invite the opposition onto a defence that can often be less than perfect - but to ensure that our tactic is effective by not having to have 5 clear chances to score one goal. Arteta seems to understand this - hence his wish for more firepower. It is unfortunate that this aim appears to have been scuppered by our CM injuries that changed the emphasis to chasing a midfielder at the last minute - which was unsuccessful. What was naive was to get carried away both by the game state where we were dominating the opposition, and by the desire to get back into the game (the triple sub encapsulated this).

Now the contentious point. Their goals were not, IMO principally due to Granit Xhaka. IMO these were generally down to team issues, not individuals. But if you want to single out individuals, Martinelli regularly failed to track his man and this was the starting issue for one of their goals; Lokonga was average off the ball and the same could be said of him for another; and Gabriel M did not have a great game and the Central Defenders (and Zinchenko) were too loose. Xhaka suffers from confirmation bias too much for me - but that's another story and I know we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


We have spent far more on defence than we have in any other position since Arteta took over. If we are regarding holding a high line a necessary gamble because it can’t be relied upon to hold onto a scoreline (in this case a 1-1) it’s fair to ask questions of how wisely that money was spent.

And yes I’m afraid Xhaka was responsible, most of United’s attacks came in the centre of midfield where Xhaka had completely vacated the space and left Lokonga alone to deal with it.

Yes in a line up that was unnecessarily pushed forward, players will often be out of position and neglect tracking back but I can forgive that more than I can giving up any kind of positional discipline.

If we’d sat back a bit at 1-1 and then conceded I could have accepted that more than chasing a win we didn’t need

[IBK]

We have spent far more on defence than we have in any other position since Arteta took over. If we are regarding holding a high line a necessary gamble because it can’t be relied upon to hold onto a scoreline (in this case a 1-1) it’s fair to ask questions of how wisely that money was spent.

And yes I’m afraid Xhaka was responsible, most of United’s attacks came in the centre of midfield where Xhaka had completely vacated the space and left Lokonga alone to deal with it.

Yes in a line up that was unnecessarily pushed forward, players will often be out of position and neglect tracking back but I can forgive that more than I can giving up any kind of positional discipline.

If we’d sat back a bit at 1-1 and then conceded I could have accepted that more than chasing a win we didn’t need

You see, your position is precisely where I find confirmation bias rather than accurate analysis.

If you have to pick a player out for Manure's first goal, it is Gabriel M, not Zhaka. Gabriel needlessly jumped into a tackle with Fernandes (who had drawn Lokonga - not Xhaka - out of position) and failed to come away with the ball. And our left side was vacated by both Martinelli higher up the pitch - who failed to block the passing lane - and Zinchenko, leaving Anthony with acres of space.

For their second, again it was Lokonga who was caught out of position, allowing Fernandes to drop between the lines and deliver the pass to Rashford.

Their third goal was a team mess, caused by the triple sub, and we were all over the place. Our wing backs again failed to track their runners.

I felt that of our CM's Lokonga was dragged wide more regularly than Xhaka who often tried to move central when this happened. Xhaka moved wide in attack, but this was (I think) more to create an overload so I suspect that this was instructed.

As I said earlier, though, it was team frailties throughout that exposed us to Manure's more organised structure.

While I respect that you are entitled to your view - blaming Xhaka for Sunday's defeat represents scapegoating of a player that you have pre-decided is a problem, and so will look to blame rather than more favoured players.

[selassie]

We didn’t lose this game when we went 2-1 down. At that point we had the run of play but were less effective than United at putting our chances away. There was still the opportunity to equalise and I didn’t feel this was done as a contest.

Then comes the triple substitution. At that point we lost our shape, impetus and composure. At that point we had thrown the game and went on to immediately concede the goal that ended the game as a contest. We went from having balance of play to damage limitation.

The team he put out there for the final twenty minutes mirrored Arteta’s public display of loss of composure. There is no way anyone who watched that can’t come to the conclusion that the loss and the manner of it wasn’t down to Arteta.

Yeah this.

The triple substitution killed us, Arteta panicked and the team basically lost complete focus.

However as others have stated, we had plenty of chances both at 1-1 and 2-1, any of those go in and we are probably having a totally different conversation.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You see, your position is precisely where I find confirmation bias rather than accurate analysis.

If you have to pick a player out for Manure's first goal, it is Gabriel M, not Zhaka. Gabriel needlessly jumped into a tackle with Fernandes (who had drawn Lokonga - not Xhaka - out of position) and failed to come away with the ball. And our left side was vacated by both Martinelli higher up the pitch - who failed to block the passing lane - and Zinchenko, leaving Anthony with acres of space.

For their second, again it was Lokonga who was caught out of position, allowing Fernandes to drop between the lines and deliver the pass to Rashford.

Their third goal was a team mess, caused by the triple sub, and we were all over the place. Our wing backs again failed to track their runners.

I felt that of our CM's Lokonga was dragged wide more regularly than Xhaka who often tried to move central when this happened. Xhaka moved wide in attack, but this was (I think) more to create an overload so I suspect that this was instructed.

As I said earlier, though, it was team frailties throughout that exposed us to Manure's more organised structure.

While I respect that you are entitled to your view - blaming Xhaka for Sunday's defeat represents scapegoating of a player that you have pre-decided is a problem, and so will look to blame rather than more favoured players.

Again I think you’re missing the point, the point is not that other players didn’t make errors weren’t out of position. It’s that the space that United players had in central midfield was down to Xhaka vacating it completely. The whole team was pushed up too high and it was too easy to be caught out, my point is that defenders are more prone to mistake when the midfield in front of them is inadequate.
Zinchenko for example worries me as a left back because he doesn’t even understand how to perform the role. But the problem always begins in midfield.
Lokonga was caught out of position multiple times but again he’s trying to do the job of two people.
But overall I think the issue was less individual errors and more the system that made those errors more likely

[IBK]

Again I think you’re missing the point, the point is not that other players didn’t make errors weren’t out of position. It’s that the space that United players had in central midfield was down to Xhaka vacating it completely. The whole team was pushed up too high and it was too easy to be caught out, my point is that defenders are more prone to mistake when the midfield in front of them is inadequate.
Zinchenko for example worries me as a left back because he doesn’t even understand how to perform the role. But the problem always begins in midfield.
Lokonga was caught out of position multiple times but again he’s trying to do the job of two people.
But overall I think the issue was less individual errors and more the system that made those errors more likely

Agreed with you last point. But I think it was Xhaka, not Lokonga, trying to do the job of 2 people in defensive MF, and I am not trying to focus on other players making mistakes (we agree it was a team thing) just giving you examples of how the player in your sights was not responsible for their goals...

[Mac76]

Agreed with you last point. But I think it was Xhaka, not Lokonga, trying to do the job of 2 people in defensive MF, and I am not trying to focus on other players making mistakes (we agree it was a team thing) just giving you examples of how the player in your sights was not responsible for their goals...

Xhaka can't do the job of one person yet alone two

[IBK]

Xhaka can't do the job of one person yet alone two

...and yet he has been an integral part of the engine room of a team sitting on top of the league; playing without his first choice MF pairing for half our matches to date, with Arsenal having the best goal difference bar Citeh and Liverpool (Pool skewed by their freak 9-0 vs Bournemouth), and having conceded only 1 more goal than Citeh and 2 more than Spurs (and fewer than all our other top 6 competitors). 3 of our conceded goals being down to clear individual defender/GK mistakes. You haters will never alter your stance, but the stats simply don't support you.

[Mac76]

...and yet he has been an integral part of the engine room of a team sitting on top of the league; playing without his first choice MF pairing for half our matches to date, with Arsenal having the best goal difference bar Citeh and Liverpool (Pool skewed by their freak 9-0 vs Bournemouth), and having conceded only 1 more goal than Citeh and 2 more than Spurs (and fewer than all our other top 6 competitors). 3 of our conceded goals being down to clear individual defender/GK mistakes. You haters will never alter your stance, but the stats simply don't support you.

our last performance does support it - i think a lot of people are underestimating now the minute we come up against the kind of team we need to beat if we're genuine top four, we allow them three goals, partly due to the fact that he's too slow to do defensive work against quality players and can 't keep the ball well enough

i'm not a Xhaka 'hater' - what i hate is that Arteta and some deluded fans think he should be in our first choice 11 when he's not good enough for a top four team

our top of the table position is only temporarily - we will only be even fourth if Arteta starts learing quickly and also some of the other teams slip up, plus we but one or two better CMs in january and ship Xhaka out

[IBK]

our last performance does support it - i think a lot of people are underestimating now the minute we come up against the kind of team we need to beat if we're genuine top four, we allow them three goals, partly due to the fact that he's too slow to do defensive work against quality players and can 't keep the ball well enough

i'm not a Xhaka 'hater' - what i hate is that Arteta and some deluded fans think he should be in our first choice 11 when he's not good enough for a top four team

our top of the table position is only temporarily - we will only be even fourth if Arteta starts learing quickly and also some of the other teams slip up, plus we but one or two better CMs in january and ship Xhaka out

OK - so provide the counter-analysis to my observations regarding how Manure scored their goals to support this. I've done a trawl of several player ratings for the game - by journalists who understand the game better than I do. These have Xhaka as a 6/7 - and only Martinelli Saka and Jesus consistently rate (1 point) higher. This simply does not support the suggestion that he was the problem - or even that he was any worse than the other Arsenal players on the pitch. Most commentators are of the view that Xhaka has performed well for us this season - in a more advanced role where he is not the principal DM.

I've said it before. I'm not particularly a Xhaka fan boy. And I agree that we could (and inevitably will) upgrade on him - albeit that clearly the manager does not consider this to be a pressing priority. But I don't like the fact that the player remains a scapegoat, and (for me) is criticised unfairly for measuring (in some people's minds) unfavourably against a perfect ideal of what we might have.

As for your final sentence - we have generally performed as well as we could ever expected to have done at this stage (the performance rather than the result against Manure - the one game we have lost - still justifies optimism). I perfer to comment on what happens - not speculate pessimistically. And top 4 is our aim this season - anyone who expects us to finish higher is a bit delusional, IMO.