Brentford vs Arsenal - Match reaction and player rating

[HCZ_Reborn]

Have to say can’t remember the last time I watched an Arsenal game I enjoyed as much as this, and it looked to me like the players enjoyed themselves as well


So let’s do some player ratings


Ramsdale 7 - Had sod all to do but did what was required of him well


White 7 - Did put a shift in defensively and was good at getting us away on the break


Saliba 8 - Someone who plays in a far more mature way than his age would suggest, mopped up everything aerially and set us away for the third goal after tidying up his own error


Gabriel M 7 - Was a bit worried when he was grabbing his hamstring in the first half, but seemed to play off the injury and was solid


Tierney 7 - Best game since he’s come back from injury by far, led the break down the left


Partey 8 - Was the engine in central midfield, prevented Brentford from getting anything going in the centre of the park, intercepted everything


Xhaka 7 - Still worries me the space he leaves in getting forward, but he did track back well at times…make an excellent interception in our box at 3-0 and laid on an inch perfect pass for Jesus to head in for 2-0


Vieira 8 - Slick on the ball and a sublime long range goal taken with nonchalance


Martinelli 6 - Doesn’t seem as confident without Zinchenko behind him and cut inside a bit too often for me, though was fairly decent in possession


Saka 6 - Wasted a good chance to score in the first half because he couldn’t get it on his preferred foot, seemed to link up ok with Vieira


Jesus 9 - Absolute menace, just covered so much ground and was pivotal in all areas of the park. Unfortunate to only score once, but absolutely MOTM



Subs


Lokonga 5 - Took him a while to find his bearings and we could have been punished if we didn’t have a bigger lead


Nketiah 7 - His running and his work rate are top notch and he’s a definite super sub


Tomoyasu 6 - Minimum impact, did what he needed to do



Marquinhos and the other boy - weren’t on long enough to form an impression on

[Mac76]

mostly fair but ridiculous rating for Martinelli, just one slip in front of goal early on, but overall he was brilliant today, did the job of two players and was a key part of how we kept Brentford subdued

8 at least

oh and as for Nwaneri (or the 'other boy' as you call him) i think breaking a PL record constitutes making an impression, also made a good tackle - top marks 10 :)

[HCZ_Reborn]

mostly fair but ridiculous rating for Martinelli, just one slip in front of goal early on, but overall he was brilliant today, did the job of two players and was a key part of how we kept Brentford subdued

8 at least

Disagree, he’s at his best when he skins his full back and takes the ball in behind them, he seemed far more keen to cut inside today. Don’t get me wrong he definitely didn’t have a poor game…no one who started did. But I’ve seen far, far better from him on the pitch this season.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

This was the game I feared and not the Man U game, as I felt how we handle a stable side like Brentford would tell us far more than the yoyo team Man U is.

What I learnt is we have improved considerably, especially the fact that we were able to score the kind of goals that we did and keep the clean sheet in the manner we did. Honestly we could really be competing for the title, if by some sort of miracle, Partey and Jesus never get injured and Xhaka doesn't have his Xhaka moments.....but we all know this is not possible and thats why I am hugely disappointed that we didn't address all these issues in the transfer window.

Citeh will probably win the league this year scoring a gazillion goals but definitely next year Liverpool and Chelsea would have gotten there act together and things would be much tougher.

We are a well oiled machine ,but only when every single cog is functioning...which is impossible as people will breakdown and get tired. In short, we should have forked out for Teilemans and another top striker and we would have had a season to remember this year.

Anyway lets enjoy the blessing of our easy fixtures while we can...top of the table with almost a fifth of the season played...laudable!!

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Disagree, he’s at his best when he skins his full back and takes the ball in behind them, he seemed far more keen to cut inside today. Don’t get me wrong he definitely didn’t have a poor game…no one who started did. But I’ve seen far, far better from him on the pitch this season.

His work rate is easily one of main reasons we are where we are. Klopp would love a player like him and do wonders with him. He being injured for a significant amount of time would affect our attack significantly. Can't say the same for Saka who I generally rate higher. We just have to face it, Martinelli is a key cog in this (Artetra's) Arsenal.

[Marc Overmars]

Superb result. Really, really impressed with that.

[HCZ_Reborn]

His work rate is easily one of main reasons we are where we are. Klopp would love a player like him and do wonders with him. He being injured for a significant amount of time would affect our attack significantly. Can't say the same for Saka who I generally rate higher. We just have to face it, Martinelli is a key cog in this (Artetra's) Arsenal.

Have to face it? I rate Martinelli highly he’s without doubt one of my favourite Arsenal players

At his best he can totally fuck up defences….Chelsea paid over 70million for Fofana and he and Gabriel made him look like a chump.

And again I didn’t say he played badly, I just think in terms of his attacking play it wasn’t as good as other games this season

As for Saka. I think he’s just been coasting this season. Unlike the Scots terrorist lover I don’t have a problem with him, but he’s been complacent. Needs to realise the ball isn’t always going to come to him on his preferred foot.

[selassie]

You can't really ask for much more from this team, we are seeing everything coming together almost flawlessly. We dominate games, we are very good on and off the ball, we are pretty quick all over the pitch, physically strong and the players seem confident. Aside from injuries, I don't have any big worries about this team compared to our rivals. What i mean by that is that if we keep a relatively fit squad throughout the season I expect a challenge for 3rd/4th place and deep runs in one of the domestic cups and the Europa League.

The game next against those lot down the road is huge, we need a statement performance and result.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Interesting post match interview from Thomas Frank, he said his team didn’t play that badly…and actually was very complimentary of us…said we would be title challengers

He’s wrong of course, we won’t be…no one is challenging City for the title this season…it’s theirs. No poor reflection on us, but a player like Haaland is going to make it next to impossible for any side to challenge City for a while….I can see them doing a Bayern Munich and winning multiple titles in a row

But I think in the past with a slightly bigger squad we absolutely could have challenged.


But it’s nice to get that kind of acknowledgement. Especially from the coach of a side that along with Brighton I greatly respect.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Have to face it? I rate Martinelli highly he’s without doubt one of my favourite Arsenal players

At his best he can totally fuck up defences….Chelsea paid over 70million for Fofana and he and Gabriel made him look like a chump.

And again I didn’t say he played badly, I just think in terms of his attacking play it wasn’t as good as other games this season

As for Saka. I think he’s just been coasting this season. Unlike the Scots terrorist lover I don’t have a problem with him, but he’s been complacent. Needs to realise the ball isn’t always going to come to him on his preferred foot.

What I meant was I agreed with your assessment of his game, but not your rating, mainly because his work rate is so important for us, that I think its kind of positively contagious. Also, Arteta's side starts defending from the opposition's half, something I've been screaming about for years that would allow the team to generally defend better and we are all seeing the results of closing down and playing most of the game in their half with and without the ball. Martinelli again is the lynchpin when it comes to that. I have stopped rating him on his goals or assits; his work rate is what I look at, his tackles, his interceptions,his holdup play, he's been really impressive.

[HCZ_Reborn]

What I meant was I agreed with your assessment of his game, but not your rating, mainly because his work rate is so important for us, that I think its kind of positively contagious. Also, Arteta's side starts defending from the opposition's half, something I've been screaming about for years that would allow the team to generally defend better and we are all seeing the results of closing down and playing most of the game in their half with and without the ball. Martinelli again is the lynchpin when it comes to that. I have stopped rating him on his goals or assits; his work rate is what I look at, his tackles, his interceptions,his holdup play, he's been really impressive.


Fair enough, I rate him on his ability to give full backs explosive diarrhoea

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Watching this Arteta side makes me wonder what Torriera did to him that made him dislike him so much. I mean he naturally has all the attributes this side is showing, I really don't understand how any normal footballing mind would choose a Xhaka over a Torriera if this is the kind of way you want to play.

It just makes no sense unless their is something I'm missing.

[GP]

Torriera was a pussy who cried every day.

Xhaka is a warrior who gives 100% every game.

Physical attributes aside, I'm choosing Xhaka every time. He's been phenominal this season. Man of the match for me today.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Torriera was a pussy who cried every day.

Xhaka is a warrior who gives 100% every game.

Physical attributes aside, I'm choosing Xhaka every time. He's been phenominal this season. Man of the match for me today.
Besides the assist and one vital interception, he still showed us he's still the limited player he's always been, with the commentator even making me laugh when he pointed out all he does is sideways passing (when he attempted his balloned shot).

Definitely he's played better this season but clearly he's still our weak link, especially when he doesn't have Partey looking after him (as shown in the Manc game).

I can't really dignify the Torreira comments with much.

[mandela8]

Excellent performance. Best of the season. A genuine 'top team' performance.

Ramsdale 7
Looked far more composed. Done the couple of asks well.

Tierney 6
Much better. Still not back to himself going forward but definitely getting there. Solid.

Gabriel 6.5
Solid again.

Saliba 7
Excellent again. Great goal. Very very rarely looks troubled.

White 6
Fine. Just very limited in that position but really not his fault.

Partey 8
Imperious. Always available. Takes the ball in the tightest of spaces and turns out of them. Brilliant player. Man of the match.

Xhaka 7
Very good performance. Great engine. Great assist. Like White though, can only go so far in that position whereas a natural fit could really progress the team in there.

Viera 7
Very impressed. Neat and tidy. Looks to go forward. Wonderful goal.

Martinelli 7.5
Great prospect. Works so hard. On and off the ball. Always getting involved and is always causing problems...just lacks that final ball/end product but just great to watch.

Jesus 6.5
Another good, if unspectacular, performance. Wonderful goal. There was a LOT to do with that header. Lovely and composed.

Saka 5
Had some neat touches but it really is incredible how someone can hide so effectively in an open field. Best performance of the season.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Excellent performance. Best of the season. A genuine 'top team' performance.

Ramsdale 7
Looked far more composed. Done the couple of asks well.

Tierney 6
Much better. Still not back to himself going forward but definitely getting there. Solid.

Gabriel 6.5
Solid again.

Saliba 7
Excellent again. Great goal. Very very rarely looks troubled.

White 6
Fine. Just very limited in that position but really not his fault.

Partey 8
Imperious. Always available. Takes the ball in the tightest of spaces and turns out of them. Brilliant player. Man of the match.

Xhaka 7
Very good performance. Great engine. Great assist. Like White though, can only go so far in that position whereas a natural fit could really progress the team in there.

Viera 7
Very impressed. Neat and tidy. Looks to go forward. Wonderful goal.

Martinelli 7.5
Great prospect. Works so hard. On and off the ball. Always getting involved and is always causing problems...just lacks that final ball/end product but just great to watch.

Jesus 6.5
Another good, if unspectacular, performance. Wonderful goal. There was a LOT to do with that header. Lovely and composed.

Saka 5
Had some neat touches but it really is incredible how someone can hide so effectively in an open field. Best performance of the season.

His best performance of the season (not true BTW) and you still gave him a 5 :haha:

Agree with the other ratings but you need to add an extra 1-2 point to all the defenders, they were solid. Plus White's overlapping run actually created the space and cleared the way for Viera's goal. The guy deserves a lot more credit.

[selassie]

Besides the assist and one vital interception, he still showed us he's still the limited player he's always been, with the commentator even making me laugh when he pointed out all he does is sideways passing (when he attempted his balloned shot).

Definitely he's played better this season but clearly he's still our weak link, especially when he doesn't have Partey looking after him (as shown in the Manc game).

I can't really dignify the Torreira comments with much.

I am by no means his biggest fan but Xhaka was really good today both offensively and defensively, he has been one of our better players this season and we have been performing at a high level since the opening day.

Xhaka definitely looks better with Partey though, I don't even think Partey looks after him, if anything Partey glues the team together, without him we look a weaker team but the difference this season is how we dominate and control games with or without Partey.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yep no fan of his but Xhaka had a good game today. Everyone looked physically strong and up for it. The only period during the match where they looked even threatening was when the crowd starting clapping for coffin lady.


Really like the black away kit too even though it made its debut in the United debacle (which I still haven’t forgiven Arteta for)

[Xhaka Can’t]

Xhaka is playing the best football of his Arsenal career. That isn’t a particularly high bar to overcome, but it should be acknowledged.

[Mac76]

What I meant was I agreed with your assessment of his game, but not your rating, mainly because his work rate is so important for us, that I think its kind of positively contagious. Also, Arteta's side starts defending from the opposition's half, something I've been screaming about for years that would allow the team to generally defend better and we are all seeing the results of closing down and playing most of the game in their half with and without the ball. Martinelli again is the lynchpin when it comes to that. I have stopped rating him on his goals or assits; his work rate is what I look at, his tackles, his interceptions,his holdup play, he's been really impressive.

Yes, that's what it is for me, he does so much to retain or win back possession and be a constant threat

[Mac76]

Xhaka is playing the best football of his Arsenal career. That isn’t a particularly high bar to overcome, but it should be acknowledged.

Quite he still is slow and gives the ball away but he at least is doing some things to compensate.

Still not good enough though

[mandela8]

His best performance of the season (not true BTW) and you still gave him a 5 :haha:

Agree with the other ratings but you need to add an extra 1-2 point to all the defenders, they were solid. Plus White's overlapping run actually created the space and cleared the way for Viera's goal. The guy deserves a lot more credit.

Was definitely Saka's best performance of the season. He gave the ball away/wasted possession far less than usual. Maybe because he hid from the ball really well today : ��

A fullback making a run off the ball really isn't something I think is deserving of special credit, ffs.

[Marc Overmars]

Spurs and Liverpool at home next. Good opportunity to change this narrative about us not being legit. Hopefully 4 points at least, feel like we’re ready for a statement win.

[mandela8]

Xhaka is playing the best football of his Arsenal career. That isn’t a particularly high bar to overcome, but it should be acknowledged.

:goodpost:

Absolutely.

He's still a huge weak link and has only been usurped as the worst player in the team by an incredible effort from Saka.

[mandela8]

Also meant to add that even in victory Arteta makes some mental decisions. 3 up and doesn't make a sub until the 78th minute, I think? Ridiculous.

People like Partey should've been off and Nketiah on much earlier. Just stupid, simple decisions.

[Mac76]

Also meant to add that even in victory Arteta makes some mental decisions. 3 up and doesn't make a sub until the 78th minute, I think? Ridiculous.

People like Partey should've been off and Nketiah on much earlier. Just stupid, simple decisions.

This is definitely something he needs to improve on, also,playing Jesus for 90 mins in that situation is just not clever

[Xhaka Can’t]

Why are you still here? Shouldn’t you be in a training camp set up by the modern iteration of Al-Muhajiroun

Or wanking yourself off to footage of terrified people covered in dust after 9/11 or the london tube bombings
The question should be, why are you posting this here?

This is a football thread.

Keep the other shit where it belongs.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I’m not a fan of the decision to field Nwaneri. I know it’s only for four minutes, but it raises expectations and pressures at a ridiculously early age as well as the pressure to field him.

He is still a child and the physical demands placed on him to compete at this level could lead to injury that shortens a career before it should even start.

Am I being overly critical here? It just doesn’t sit well with me.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The question should be, why are you posting this here?

This is a football thread.

Keep the other shit where it belongs.


Fuck compartmentalising etiquette

I’m going to remind this piece of shit exactly what he said for some time

Don’t like it? Take it up with a mod

[Letters]

He is a mod :lol:


Well, sort of.

[mandela8]

I’m not a fan of the decision to field Nwaneri. I know it’s only for four minutes, but it raises expectations and pressures at a ridiculously early age as well as the pressure to field him.

He is still a child and the physical demands placed on him to compete at this level could lead to injury that shortens a career before it should even start.

Am I being overly critical here? It just doesn’t sit well with me.

I'm with you. Well probably not hear from him for a few years now. Kinda reeks of self aggrandizing from Arteta, to me. A kinda "look at me, I've started the youngest ever player" thing. It was just pointless. I'm sure the wee boy is delighted though and I doubt it'll Impact his actual development plan.

[Mac76]

I'm with you. Well probably not hear from him for a few years now. Kinda reeks of self aggrandizing from Arteta, to me. A kinda "look at me, I've started the youngest ever player" thing. It was just pointless. I'm sure the wee boy is delighted though and I doubt it'll Impact his actual development plan.

Well as long as Arteta follows it through by giving him more opportunities it's fine.

Was impressed by the boy, imagine how hard his heart must have been thumping prior to coming on but he got stuck in, good for him

[mandela8]

Well as long as Arteta follows it through by giving him more opportunities it's fine.

Was impressed by the boy, imagine how hard his heart must have been thumping prior to coming on but he got stuck in, good for him

He definitely won't, man. I don't think he's even eligible for Europe.

On a similar note, I was reading the reviews of Patino. I wonder if he has anything to do with them not bringing that progressive no.8 type CM in.

[selassie]

Spurs and Liverpool at home next. Good opportunity to change this narrative about us not being legit. Hopefully 4 points at least, feel like we’re ready for a statement win.

These two games in a way will really tell us where we are as a team now. Spurs at home is always a game I look for three points irrespective of both clubs form. Spurs are a decent side again under Conte, not great to watch but very efficient and very difficult to beat, they don't lose many games. If we play well or as well as we have been so far this season then I fancy us to beat them at home. The Liverpool game is more difficult to read, on current form and performance we are a better team than them but it's Liverpool, they have had our number for a while know, since Klopp has been here basically.

[Mac76]

These two games in a way will really tell us where we are as a team now. Spurs at home is always a game I look for three points irrespective of both clubs form. Spurs are a decent side again under Conte, not great to watch but very efficient and very difficult to beat, they don't lose many games. If we play well or as well as we have been so far this season then I fancy us to beat them at home. The Liverpool game is more difficult to read, on current form and performance we are a better team than them but it's Liverpool, they have had our number for a while know, since Klopp has been here basically.

I'm more or less the same on that, though the fact that the league table position counts on it makes me worried as it then makes the stakes even higher. I really think Arteta should leave Xhaka out of that game as emotions will be high, Spuds will be cheating as always and we're bound to have a terrible ref - i know he won't though...

[Marc Overmars]

Always fancy us against Spurs at home, you’d hope they’ll use the disappointment of last season as motivation too. Klopp has had us on toast for pretty much his entire time here, so I’m not sure about that game. Undoubtedly it’s our best chance to beat them in years though. Looking forward to it, just a shame we’ve got a wait a couple weeks until these shitty international games are over.

[Mac76]

Yeah that international break is a real bore, i feel like it's months since i was at a home game, even though it isn't

[Xhaka Can’t]

Fuck compartmentalising etiquette

I’m going to remind this piece of shit exactly what he said for some time

Don’t like it? Take it up with a mod

Good idea.

Thanks

[selassie]

I'm more or less the same on that, though the fact that the league table position counts on it makes me worried as it then makes the stakes even higher. I really think Arteta should leave Xhaka out of that game as emotions will be high, Spuds will be cheating as always and we're bound to have a terrible ref - i know he won't though...

Spurs will come to the Emirates and try and shithouse there way through the game. Conte is ruthless, he'll come to basically not lose but they won't be super defensive either.

I dunno...Xhaka has been good this season in this more advanced role, emotions aside he has to play.

[mandela8]

I'm more or less the same on that, though the fact that the league table position counts on it makes me worried as it then makes the stakes even higher. I really think Arteta should leave Xhaka out of that game as emotions will be high, Spuds will be cheating as always and we're bound to have a terrible ref - i know he won't though...

Who would you play instead, man?

I'm always up for dropping Xhaka but for who?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Henry Winter has written a piece about how more fans have begun to trust the process. For me “Trust the Process” is the bleating of sheep on social media who don’t want to admit that they have placed their faith in a false dawn. I don’t trust Arteta, I don’t trust Edu and I don’t trust KSE…..I still think too many decisions get made unwisely.
However if in the unfolding of this season there are many more games like this one which show work rate and talent in equal measure, It will go some way to alleviating many of the doubts I have. I’m still of the view that Arteta should have been sacked in the autumn period of 2020. But if he is able to produce more results like Sunday, and is able to adapt from his own hubris that resulted in our 3-1 loss to United then there is hope that we can see a movement in the right direction

[IBK]

I’m not a fan of the decision to field Nwaneri. I know it’s only for four minutes, but it raises expectations and pressures at a ridiculously early age as well as the pressure to field him.

He is still a child and the physical demands placed on him to compete at this level could lead to injury that shortens a career before it should even start.

Am I being overly critical here? It just doesn’t sit well with me.

Not sure I agree. I think that the introduction of Nwaneri simply sent a message both to our youth players and more generally that Arsenal is a club that will give opportunities for them to progress their careers. By fielding the youngest average age team in the EPL we are already showing a committment to youth team progression, that both sets us apart from the other top teams and feeds into our more general strategy - to focus on the best young talent rather than trying to compete for the very best established names with clubs for whom finance is not a consideration. While giving Nwaneri some minutes was a 'stunt' to a degree - the coverage that this received was for me a useful PR exercise that cost neither the club nor the player anything.

[IBK]

Who would you play instead, man?

I'm always up for dropping Xhaka but for who?

Why would Arteta drop one of our most consistent best performenrs this season?

[GP]

Why would Arteta drop one of our most consistent best performenrs this season?

He wouldn't. No one would. People just can't admit they were wrong.

[Marc Overmars]

Certainly not a Xhaka fan but he’s definitely playing the best football of his time with us at the moment. I know that bar isn’t particularly high but he’s had a positive impact on our strong start so far.

[HCZ_Reborn]

He wouldn't. No one would. People just can't admit they were wrong.

Wrong about what exactly?

His lack of positional awareness, his lack of pace, his lack of ability to take the ball forward from his own half under any pressure. His being totally one footed in a way that Saka would be embarrassed by.

There’s being overly optimistic and there’s being masochistic

Xhaka playing well is the exception that proves the rule. Just like it was with Aaron Ramsey. But instead you have moronic fans chanting “we’ve got Granit Xhaka” at the game against Brentford. Which to me is like chanting that you’ve got Monkeypox

It’s nice to make people aware of the fact but it’s not really something to boast about

[HCZ_Reborn]

Why would Arteta drop one of our most consistent best performenrs this season?

In fairness to that Alba descended maniac even he is saying you can’t drop Xhaka even though it is to lament our lack of options in central midfield. On this and little else, we are in accord

[Letters]

Henry Winter has written a piece about how more fans have begun to trust the process. For me “Trust the Process” is the bleating of sheep on social media who don’t want to admit that they have placed their faith in a false dawn.
We don't know if it's a false dawn yet. But looking at All or Nothing, it does seem like there is a strategy for the club.
And looking at results, it seems to be working. And it's not just results, although those are of course important in football, I just like the way they're playing right now, there feels to be more fight and purpose in them.
I'm not convinced it'll take us right to the top of the game, but I reckon Arteta's earned the right to try. There have been times when I, too, have thought he should be sacked. But overall I'm glad we have a management structure in the club who isn't as impatient and reactionary as the fans.

Having seen the highlights now, we were really good on Sunday. It was a level of performance I haven't seen from us in a while, and 3-0 flattered Brentford if anything. We have some bigger tests to come of course.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’m not insisting that it is a false dawn, I’m saying that Arteta’s reign has been a myriad of them designed as little more than a trick of light when we are in fact still in the middle of the night.

Sunday was the first and in fact only glimmer of us being a functioning football team in almost ten years…so yes that even by itself should be cause for celebration.

But it cannot and should not be allowed to detract from the fact that a) our transfer policy which some deluded fans seem to think akin to uncovering a trove of Nazi Gold, is more hit and miss than someone with glaucoma on a driving test

B) Anyone with even a passable level of intelligence should have been deeply concerned by what they saw in All or Nothing. A passive aggressive dictatorial figure with all the charisma of John Major making deeply quixotic team talks, failing to demonstrate any personal level of relationship with one single player and blaming players for defeats when it’s abundantly clear his own tactics and set up are responsible


Now it could be that Arteta has either had an epiphany or that he’s started taking psychiatric medication that has dulled his napoleon complex whilst still allowing him to function at a basic level. But despite that we are in an incredibly precarious position, in terms of the potential for injuries and suspensions that could see this unravel very quickly.

The fact is Brentford was nice, really nice to see…but logic suggests we should still be waiting for the other shoe to drop

[Marc Overmars]

I’m not insisting that it is a false dawn, I’m saying that Arteta’s reign has been a myriad of them designed as little more than a trick of light when we are in fact still in the middle of the night.

Sunday was the first and in fact only glimmer of us being a functioning football team in almost ten years…so yes that even by itself should be cause for celebration.

But it cannot and should not be allowed to detract from the fact that a) our transfer policy which some deluded fans seem to think akin to uncovering a trove of Nazi Gold, is more hit and miss than someone with glaucoma on a driving test

B) Anyone with even a passable level of intelligence should have been deeply concerned by what they saw in All or Nothing. A passive aggressive dictatorial figure with all the charisma of John Major making deeply quixotic team talks, failing to demonstrate any personal level of relationship with one single player and blaming players for defeats when it’s abundantly clear his own tactics and set up are responsible


Now it could be that Arteta has either had an epiphany or that he’s started taking psychiatric medication that has dulled his napoleon complex whilst still allowing him to function at a basic level. But despite that we are in an incredibly precarious position, in terms of the potential for injuries and suspensions that could see this unravel very quickly.

The fact is Brentford was nice, really nice to see…but logic suggests we should still be waiting for the other shoe to drop

I think you’re just too shrouded in negativity man. I’m not an optimist by any stretch but I’m happy with what I’m seeing whilst still being acutley aware of how fragile things are. Every single cog needs to be functioning for us to work, we won’t be able to deal with more than a few absentees.

Most fans with a brain cell know this is not likely to end in all encompassing glory but we’ve been out in the wilderness for so long it’s just nice to be be relevant again I guess.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think you’re just too shrouded in negativity man. I’m not an optimist by any stretch but I’m happy with what I’m seeing whilst still being acutley aware of how fragile things are. Every single cog needs to be functioning for us to work, we won’t be able to deal with more than a few absentees.

Most fans with a brain cell know this is not likely to end in all encompassing glory but we’ve been out in the wilderness for so long it’s just nice to be be relevant again I guess.

The goal now is what it was on August 5th, get into the top four

This is I insist still a very precarious endeavour. Our failure in the transfer market has made us hostage to fortune, and especially so in light of the return of European football.

We are not favourites to finish top 4, we are distinct underdogs. Anyone refusing to acknowledge this is setting themselves for a catastrophic fall

[IBK]

In fairness to that Alba descended maniac even he is saying you can’t drop Xhaka even though it is to lament our lack of options in central midfield. On this and little else, we are in accord

I get that. I also understand that some people feel that Xhaka could be upgraded on. But:


He's still a huge weak link and has only been usurped as the worst player in the team by an incredible effort from Saka.

and your criticism of the way Xhaka plays is, IMHO, one-eyed in the extreme. Pretty much every commentator that I have seen acknowledges that Xhaka has been one of our best performers this season, and some had him as MOTM on Sunday. You are entitled to your opinion, but in his new position, the player has been an integral part of our very impressive start to the season - and rather than disparaging the away fans who were singing his name I salute them for (unlike you) setting aside historic antipathy to Xhaka, and recognising the efforts he has made. In terms of how we have played as a team all season, Xhaka has simply not been the weak link that some insist in characterising him as.

[Letters]

We are not favourites to finish top 4, we are distinct underdogs. Anyone refusing to acknowledge this is setting themselves for a catastrophic fall
I wouldn't say we are either.
City are clearly at a different level. Liverpool probably are although they have struggled a bit so far.
After that...I don't see anyone else clearly favourites ahead of us. Chelsea, Spurs and Utd are the next lot, none of them clearly above us IMO.

[Marc Overmars]

The goal now is what it was on August 5th, get into the top four

This is I insist still a very precarious endeavour. Our failure in the transfer market has made us hostage to fortune, and especially so in light of the return of European football.

We are not favourites to finish top 4, we are distinct underdogs. Anyone refusing to acknowledge this is setting themselves for a catastrophic fall

I don’t believe we’re distinct underdogs. Maybe other sides are favoured more (and fairly so) because of recent history of finishing in the top 4, but based on what we’ve seen so far we may have as good a chance as any. We missed out by essentially a win last season so we’re not miles away.

It’s not like it was 10-15 years ago where the top 4 was a lock in. It’s a precarious endeavour now because the competition is stronger and 6 into 4 doesn’t go, 3rd-6th is potentially interchangeable. Maybe even Liverpool could be scrapping this year, which would be good for us.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I get that. I also understand that some people feel that Xhaka could be upgraded on. But:



and your criticism of the way Xhaka plays is, IMHO, one-eyed in the extreme. Pretty much every commentator that I have seen acknowledges that Xhaka has been one of our best performers this season, and some had him as MOTM on Sunday. You are entitled to your opinion, but in his new position, the player has been an integral part of our very impressive start to the season - and rather than disparaging the away fans who were singing his name I salute them for (unlike you) setting aside historic antipathy to Xhaka, and recognising the efforts he has made. In terms of how we have played as a team all season, Xhaka has simply not been the weak link that some insist in characterising him as.


Praise from commentators like with fans is ephemeral, I could understand the point you were making if Xhaka was in his second season with us and that last season was him playing beneath himself whilst he settled in. But he’s one of our veterans….only Elneny has been at the club longer.

All that changing his position has done is make us more dependent on Partey remaining fit, he has done well this season because we’ve had a combination of playing mainly spastic opponents And Partey and to a lesser extent Zinchenko covered for the spaces he leaves in midfield. Xhaka has become in fact the microcosm for Arsenal under Arteta where I’m constantly waiting for it to go disastrously wrong and recent history has proved me right consistently.

My list of Xhaka’s attributes are what makes me afraid every time I see him on the team sheet, because in a league which is won by a mixture of pace and power….persisting with a player that lacks either along with any dribbling ability is tempting fate.

It’s not just that we can upgrade on him, it’s the failure to do so is masochistic. And it’s not because he’s a shit player. His ball into Jesus on Sunday was sublime, as was the one two he played with Jesus to put the latter in on goal.
When under little pressure he has excellent passing range at times. But this isn’t the Bundesliga, it’s not Series A…you don’t get that time and space continually…and he will be exposed for his limitations again as sure as night turns into day.

I struggle with having to explain this to people who are clearly around my age or older and have watched enough football down the years to be able to come to the same conclusion. And the only explanation I can render for it, is the delusional belief that because the laws of science are based on finite probability, that by some miracle there is a chance no matter how small that having Xhaka there won’t fuck us.


Singing about him, is the equivalent to saying having your uncle fondle your Willy as a small child made you the man you are today.

[mandela8]

I get that. I also understand that some people feel that Xhaka could be upgraded on. But:



and your criticism of the way Xhaka plays is, IMHO, one-eyed in the extreme. Pretty much every commentator that I have seen acknowledges that Xhaka has been one of our best performers this season, and some had him as MOTM on Sunday. You are entitled to your opinion, but in his new position, the player has been an integral part of our very impressive start to the season - and rather than disparaging the away fans who were singing his name I salute them for (unlike you) setting aside historic antipathy to Xhaka, and recognising the efforts he has made. In terms of how we have played as a team all season, Xhaka has simply not been the weak link that some insist in characterising him as.

Xhaka is still a huge weak link.

Personally, I think it's the introduction of the position, rather than Xhaka, that has made the difference. The move from 2 DMs to one has been long overdue. It balances the team so much more (when the AMC is very right side biased) and offers that extra option/distraction in attack. That's the difference for me.

It just so happens that Xhaka is occupying that position just now but it's still ripe for improvement with a more natural fit.
That said, I don't think anyone is disagreeing that Xhaka is playing his best fitba for arsenal just now.

However, form is temporary. Lack of class is permanent.

[mandela8]

And, fwiw, I've never really been one for targeting Xhaka either. You won't find a post of mine about him that is personal in anyway. I don't dislike him or hold some weird extreme view of him.

Just a fitba opinion. Even in my ratings, and let's be honest they're the only ratings anyone actually cares aboot, I think I've had him middle to top end most games. I'm actually enjoying his wee purple patch. Good on him. That still doesn't detract from the fact that after Saka he's the player/position that is easiest improved.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yes you’re definitely the person to listen to on player ratings by the same token Sidney Cooke gives brilliant advice on child safeguarding

I get that Letter’s misguided sense of Christian charity allows you to venture an opinion in public when you should be in an institution being studied as to how the human race has gone down such a blind cul de sac, but is the faux Scottishness really necessary. You’re not really even Scottish are you, you gave up on that country when it became apparent that most of your fellow countrymen weren’t insane enough to give the SNP the keys to an independent country.

I don’t know, is it a sign of misplaced guilt…if so Hardly necessary. That country is going down hill but it’s definitely better off without you there.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t believe we’re distinct underdogs. Maybe other sides are favoured more (and fairly so) because of recent history of finishing in the top 4, but based on what we’ve seen so far we may have as good a chance as any. We missed out by essentially a win last season so we’re not miles away.

It’s not like it was 10-15 years ago where the top 4 was a lock in. It’s a precarious endeavour now because the competition is stronger and 6 into 4 doesn’t go, 3rd-6th is potentially interchangeable. Maybe even Liverpool could be scrapping this year, which would be good for us.


Ok I’m really going to have to do this? Blimey

As of the end of the game yesterday we are one yellow card away from losing Jesus through suspension. If that yellow card comes against Spurs we lose him for the Liverpool game. I like Eddie I really do, but then I liked Danny Welbeck as well but neither of them give me particular confidence when playing up front.

We’ve got Granit Xhaka playing in a more advanced role because Arteta has given up on even expecting him to not leave so much space in midfield. It’s like a school who has given up on a pupil and any hope that they might turn up for lessons on time, have the right equipment and actually produce legible homework…you might as well leave them to it and wash your hands off them when it comes to exam time.

Unfortunately for the team it requires the continued presence of Thomas Partey to prevent him from doing too much damage, and Partey is about as reliable in that respect as Batman is to Commissioner Gordon in respect of not disappearing mid conversation.

Lokonga could be a possibility but not at the moment because Arteta refused to play him enough last season to bed him in and when he’s been thrown in at the deep end, he’s looked desperately wanting which in Arteta’s mind is justification for not having played him to begin with….circular logic.

On top of that we have European football which we collapsed last season despite not having and our squad is so thin that we can’t get away without playing first team players even in the group stages.

We have no cover for Saka, we have two centre backs vying for the right back spot. We have one left back who clearly prefers cuddling up on the sofa with his boyfriend and watching Despicable me to playing football and one left back who doesn’t seem to understand what a left back actually does.

We lack any variety up top, just because at all of 5ft 10 Jesus was able to get between two centre backs and head in unmarked on Sunday doesn’t mean most defenders will be so obliging.

Our first choice playmaker has a tendency to go missing in big games (by tendency I mean he always goes missing) the second choice one is Injured, overweight and has one leg shorter than the other and Skeet Ulrich seems decent but still has the upper body strength of my mates Nan after three rounds of aggressive chemotherapy.

Spurs may be playing shit but they have two of the best strikers in the league and they don’t play silly buggers with their midfield for years.

Liverpool could slip but with their best XI available would comfortably nail us to the wall

Chelsea - If Auba is like he was in his last 15 months with us they are fucked, if under a decent coach like Xavi or Graham Potter and not monstrous egotists like Tuchel and Arteta he thrives they will finish above us

So yeah, it’s abundantly clear to me as it should be to anyone else that it’s not in our own hands

[selassie]

I wouldn't say we are either.
City are clearly at a different level. Liverpool probably are although they have struggled a bit so far.
After that...I don't see anyone else clearly favourites ahead of us. Chelsea, Spurs and Utd are the next lot, none of them clearly above us IMO.

Yeah I agree with this. I don't think there is much if anything in it between us, Chelsea, Spurs and Utd. We are the underdogs in the sense that we haven't finished in the top 4 since 2016 but our performances and results for quite a while now place us firmly in the "Challenging for top 4" bracket. We are certainly not worse than any of those teams mentioned above, in fact on performances so far we look pretty much locked for top 4.

[selassie]

Henry Winter has written a piece about how more fans have begun to trust the process. For me “Trust the Process” is the bleating of sheep on social media who don’t want to admit that they have placed their faith in a false dawn. I don’t trust Arteta, I don’t trust Edu and I don’t trust KSE…..I still think too many decisions get made unwisely.
However if in the unfolding of this season there are many more games like this one which show work rate and talent in equal measure, It will go some way to alleviating many of the doubts I have. I’m still of the view that Arteta should have been sacked in the autumn period of 2020. But if he is able to produce more results like Sunday, and is able to adapt from his own hubris that resulted in our 3-1 loss to United then there is hope that we can see a movement in the right direction

There is a middle ground too HCZ! I am somewhere in the middle at the moment, I like what I am seeing and I am relatively happy with our recruitment, Arteta and Edu have got to be commended for that, they have built a very good side in a short space of time. Spending money doesn't guarantee improved performances.

Both Arteta and Edu aren't perfect, they make plenty of mistakes, but they need to be given a bit of time considering they are both quite novice in their roles.

We have started this season very well albeit with a slightly favorable set of fixtures, but you can only beat what is put in front of you, so far so good. I am under no illusion that we won't continue this form and will face blips along the way, it's how we react to that which is important.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t want to invoke the old Einstein said “the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results” because apart from anything else, there’s absolutely no evidence that he ever said this.

But I guess all I’m saying is enjoy Sunday why not, it’s so rare that we ever play that well that it might as well be enjoyed

But like with the Queen’s funeral, the grand pageantry and impressive military regalia is fun to behold but once the finery is put away and things return to normal we can’t pretend that we are not in a frightful state.

This club is not in steady hands, it’s being presided over by a combination of sociopaths (Arteta) and well meaning incompetents (Edu, Josh Kroenke). Just because we have the odd nice day where we our hair isn’t falling out and we aren’t shitting and vomiting blood it’s not to say we aren’t dying slowly of a sustained, progressive sickness.

Almost three years of Arteta has shown me that he, Edu and that simpleton offspring of the owner need to go

But they are the merely the symptoms of a malign disease. The club needs complete and total restructuring of its leadership.

[HCZ_Reborn]

People who don’t like what I say fall back on two things - that I can’t admit when I’m wrong, failing to come to grips with how desperately I want to be wrong and how I’ve wanted to be wrong in the past only to have my predictions come to pass. I get no enjoyment out of panning Xhaka, I have no personal animus towards him but expecting him to suddenly be a decent player for any length of time rather than the liability he has so frequently been is like the alchemist’s dream of base metal into gold.

People say enjoy it whilst it lasts, well I have done I enjoyed it all of Sunday and Monday…but like with returning to work tomorrow after the first time I’ve had more than one day off from a job I despise in weeks…one can’t escape the fact that things return to normal.

Im not trying to be smarter than anyone else, I’m not…what I’m saying is so obvious it’s silly. And I don’t believe that everyone else is too stupid to see it, I just think football fans have an unsurpassed ability at ignoring what they don’t want to see.

[Mac76]

@HCZ some of that is a bit over the top but my own jury is definitely still out on Arteta:

1. the one time we played a top 6 team this season we got well done, no amount of victories against the not-so-good clubs disguises that

2. Arteta is awful at subs and is running our best players into the ground - after getting booked late in the game, Jesus is now on 4 yellow cards, one more and he's suspended for a game, plus he's being overworked - Arteta is completely failing to look after him, he should have come off after we went 3-0 up yesterday

3. we have wasted some good players and been too slow to introduce others - had we used Saliba last season, we would have made top 4 without a doubt

4. as you say Xhaka may be able to do well against smaller teams but he shouldn't be a starter against the bigger clubs, and definitely not captain after throwing the armband on the floor and telling our fans to f**k off

[IBK]

Praise from commentators like with fans is ephemeral, I could understand the point you were making if Xhaka was in his second season with us and that last season was him playing beneath himself whilst he settled in. But he’s one of our veterans….only Elneny has been at the club longer.

All that changing his position has done is make us more dependent on Partey remaining fit, he has done well this season because we’ve had a combination of playing mainly spastic opponents And Partey and to a lesser extent Zinchenko covered for the spaces he leaves in midfield. Xhaka has become in fact the microcosm for Arsenal under Arteta where I’m constantly waiting for it to go disastrously wrong and recent history has proved me right consistently.

My list of Xhaka’s attributes are what makes me afraid every time I see him on the team sheet, because in a league which is won by a mixture of pace and power….persisting with a player that lacks either along with any dribbling ability is tempting fate.

It’s not just that we can upgrade on him, it’s the failure to do so is masochistic. And it’s not because he’s a shit player. His ball into Jesus on Sunday was sublime, as was the one two he played with Jesus to put the latter in on goal.
When under little pressure he has excellent passing range at times. But this isn’t the Bundesliga, it’s not Series A…you don’t get that time and space continually…and he will be exposed for his limitations again as sure as night turns into day.

I struggle with having to explain this to people who are clearly around my age or older and have watched enough football down the years to be able to come to the same conclusion. And the only explanation I can render for it, is the delusional belief that because the laws of science are based on finite probability, that by some miracle there is a chance no matter how small that having Xhaka there won’t fuck us.


Singing about him, is the equivalent to saying having your uncle fondle your Willy as a small child made you the man you are today.

Problem is that you are approaching Xhaka this season with confirmation bias. You are waiting for things to go wrong with him based on what has happened in the past (btw I agree that he is too slow to be a covering MF for us), and your ideal of what his position requires, and therefore (in my view) failing to acknowledge what is actually an impressive adaptation to a new and much more effective role. The debate on the Manure game highlighted this. Xhaka was criticised for not being Partey - ie able to provide the defensive cover in MF that Partey can - and therefore he was blamed by some for Manure's goals happening down the centre - whereas the reality was that Lokonga was the weak link, not Xhaka.

It may be that he is found wanting against better teams (mind you - Brentford are no pushovers - however we made them look), and without Partey there. But the problem here is that Partey is fairly unique - and we ain't going to find a ready made Partey replacement to come straight into the team for less than £50M, and a Partey back up of sufficient quality isn't going to come as back up.

Over the past season or so, the manager has shown that he understands what is needed to put his vision into practice - yet there have been greater priorities than replacing Xhaka. In other words those with far more knowledge and understanding of the game than me or you have not seen him as the weakest link. So what if Xhaka has had to be moved to get him contributing more effectively (and less riskily) for our team? All teams are a blend. Henderson is a limited technical player for Liverpool but he has worked for them in a MF role. Jorginho divides opinion at Chelsea. The fact that Xhaka has been one of our best performers - and his skill set can be utilised effectively - this season in a new role is a good thing. Not all out players (or all players in any team) need to have pace and power - even in today's EPL.

I respect your views to the contrary, but for me Xhaka has earned the right to wait and see whether he will indeed become a weak link in Arsenal 22, rather than automatically assuming he is one.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Problem is that you are approaching Xhaka this season with confirmation bias. You are waiting for things to go wrong with him based on what has happened in the past (btw I agree that he is too slow to be a covering MF for us), and your ideal of what his position requires, and therefore (in my view) failing to acknowledge what is actually an impressive adaptation to a new and much more effective role. The debate on the Manure game highlighted this. Xhaka was criticised for not being Partey - ie able to provide the defensive cover in MF that Partey can - and therefore he was blamed by some for Manure's goals happening down the centre - whereas the reality was that Lokonga was the weak link, not Xhaka.

It may be that he is found wanting against better teams (mind you - Brentford are no pushovers - however we made them look), and without Partey there. But the problem here is that Partey is fairly unique - and we ain't going to find a ready made Partey replacement to come straight into the team for less than £50M, and a Partey back up of sufficient quality isn't going to come as back up.

Over the past season or so, the manager has shown that he understands what is needed to put his vision into practice - yet there have been greater priorities than replacing Xhaka. In other words those with far more knowledge and understanding of the game than me or you have not seen him as the weakest link. So what if Xhaka has had to be moved to get him contributing more effectively (and less riskily) for our team? All teams are a blend. Henderson is a limited technical player for Liverpool but he has worked for them in a MF role. Jorginho divides opinion at Chelsea. The fact that Xhaka has been one of our best performers - and his skill set can be utilised effectively - this season in a new role is a good thing. Not all out players (or all players in any team) need to have pace and power - even in today's EPL.

I respect your views to the contrary, but for me Xhaka has earned the right to wait and see whether he will indeed become a weak link in Arsenal 22, rather than automatically assuming he is one.

Again and with the highest respect to you, you’re talking out of your bum hole

It’s beyond me why I need to make this point again but we are beyond confirmation bias we are taking about Empirical evidence

What you’re asking is that I suspend my belief and have faith that counter to any sound principle of a players footballing progression that a player that has been bilge for the previous six seasons, is going to be useful to us in a seventh at the age of thirty when the legs are starting to go.

As to your argument that I’m waiting for him to make a mistake, not at all…the same mistakes have been on display in every game this season….we are just seeing more of him from an attacking sense because Arteta has given up on asking him to have positional discipline. I’d like to see the stats on which Arsenal player has given the ball away the most because if he’s not leading or in the top three I’d be astonished.

Brentford it didn’t matter because every time he did give the ball away Partey was there to wipe his bum for him…but Partey won’t always be there. Not just City either but a midfield like Spurs, Chelsea, even Liverpool will punish us for this. Even Brighton…Partey is playing and he’s playing well…all it takes is for him to be off form and we are going to have fuck holes carved into us like we are Jason Swift.

So no im not waiting for him to slip up, I'm waiting for us to be punished for his slip ups. We might get extraordinarily lucky and not have it happen to us….but empirical evidence suggests it will.

No one is asking you to agree with me, but if you can’t comprehend of anything but I hate Xhaka because he’s been shit in the past….then really it’s you who are being blinded by your own assumptions

I struggle to see this forward vision that Arteta has shown. His history includes persisting with Willian for half a season resulting in 7 defeats in ten games and a brief flirtation with relegation, persisting with Laca for just as long…not trusting his squad enough to rotate and giving both Eddie and Lokonga more game time. Throwing Nuno Tavares to the wolves.

The catalogue of this man’s personal and tactical failings are to say the least large.

I cannot see therefore how Xhaka’s continued presence at this club amounts to more than galaxy brained obdurateness

[Mac76]

Praise from commentators like with fans is ephemeral, I could understand the point you were making if Xhaka was in his second season with us and that last season was him playing beneath himself whilst he settled in. But he’s one of our veterans….only Elneny has been at the club longer.

All that changing his position has done is make us more dependent on Partey remaining fit, he has done well this season because we’ve had a combination of playing mainly spastic opponents And Partey and to a lesser extent Zinchenko covered for the spaces he leaves in midfield. Xhaka has become in fact the microcosm for Arsenal under Arteta where I’m constantly waiting for it to go disastrously wrong and recent history has proved me right consistently.

My list of Xhaka’s attributes are what makes me afraid every time I see him on the team sheet, because in a league which is won by a mixture of pace and power….persisting with a player that lacks either along with any dribbling ability is tempting fate.

It’s not just that we can upgrade on him, it’s the failure to do so is masochistic. And it’s not because he’s a shit player. His ball into Jesus on Sunday was sublime, as was the one two he played with Jesus to put the latter in on goal.
When under little pressure he has excellent passing range at times. But this isn’t the Bundesliga, it’s not Series A…you don’t get that time and space continually…and he will be exposed for his limitations again as sure as night turns into day.

I struggle with having to explain this to people who are clearly around my age or older and have watched enough football down the years to be able to come to the same conclusion. And the only explanation I can render for it, is the delusional belief that because the laws of science are based on finite probability, that by some miracle there is a chance no matter how small that having Xhaka there won’t fuck us.


Singing about him, is the equivalent to saying having your uncle fondle your Willy as a small child made you the man you are today.

:gp:

(Apart perhaps from the final paragraph :lol:)

[IBK]

Again and with the highest respect to you, you’re talking out of your bum hole

It’s beyond me why I need to make this point again but we are beyond confirmation bias we are taking about Empirical evidence

What you’re asking is that I suspend my belief and have faith that counter to any sound principle of a players footballing progression that a player that has been bilge for the previous six seasons, is going to be useful to us in a seventh at the age of thirty when the legs are starting to go.

As to your argument that I’m waiting for him to make a mistake, not at all…the same mistakes have been on display in every game this season….we are just seeing more of him from an attacking sense because Arteta has given up on asking him to have positional discipline. I’d like to see the stats on which Arsenal player has given the ball away the most because if he’s not leading or in the top three I’d be astonished.

Brentford it didn’t matter because every time he did give the ball away Partey was there to wipe his bum for him…but Partey won’t always be there. Not just City either but a midfield like Spurs, Chelsea, even Liverpool will punish us for this. Even Brighton…Partey is playing and he’s playing well…all it takes is for him to be off form and we are going to have fuck holes carved into us like we are Jason Swift.

So no im not waiting for him to slip up, I'm waiting for us to be punished for his slip ups. We might get extraordinarily lucky and not have it happen to us….but empirical evidence suggests it will.

No one is asking you to agree with me, but if you can’t comprehend of anything but I hate Xhaka because he’s been shit in the past….then really it’s you who are being blinded by your own assumptions

I struggle to see this forward vision that Arteta has shown. His history includes persisting with Willian for half a season resulting in 7 defeats in ten games and a brief flirtation with relegation, persisting with Laca for just as long…not trusting his squad enough to rotate and giving both Eddie and Lokonga more game time. Throwing Nuno Tavares to the wolves.

The catalogue of this man’s personal and tactical failings are to say the least large.

I cannot see therefore how Xhaka’s continued presence at this club amounts to more than galaxy brained obdurateness

I do not think that you 'hate' Xhaka. I understand that you (and others) feel (a) that his skills are not suited for the EPL/our continued progress and (b) that he will revert to type - particularly in the 'big' games. Where I think you are biased in reaching your conclusions is in 3 respects. Firstly - you have (IMO) fallen into the trap of making Xhaka the lightening rod for our team's disappointments over the past few years. There is no other Arsenal player who has suffered as much from this phenomenon - despite plenty of them having far more to answer for in this regard. I have shown on other threads, for example, how his disciplinary record is not as bad as most people would think over his time with us. Yet the accepted truth is that he has cost us many games by being sent off. You also present as 'empirical evidence' the fact that the player has made mistakes - in particular giving the ball away. But this 'evidence' is totally meaningless in any determinative sense. Every player makes mistakes. Every player gives the ball away. You say you'd be astonished if he wasn't the worst, or in the top 3 in the team in this regard. I would be surprised if he was, and even if this is the case, you have to consider where he plays, and the fact that a MF is likely to have far more touches on the ball than other positions. The real reason for your conclusion is that this is pre-determined based on your own preconceptions.

The second 'trap' I think you fall into is equating what are admittedly present 'defects' in Xhaka's game (lack of pace and needing space to do what he does best - delivering passes) with general personal and tactical failings. If you think that Xhaka lacks personal qualities - leadership; committment; team player etc - then it is you, not I who is not looking at the evidence, or at the very least failing to balance the 'bad' with the good. I could list a number of examples of how Xhaka has displayed oustanding professionalism, but I think that the way in which he has turned things round since the nadir of that Crystal Palace game speaks for itself. You point to tactical failings (I get that you are speaking of Arteta here, but it is an important aspeact of Xhaka's game also). There have been no other players in our team who have been asked to play in so many different roles during his time with us - and this alone suggests an ability to understand the game tactically. Ian Wright's analysis of Xhaka last Sunday highlighted an interesting aspect of his game - and that was how he constantly looked around him when receiving the ball to assess what space he had to deliver a pass. This is not an attirbute of a player without tactical awareness - quite the opposite.

Finally, you fail (apparently) to understand that you need to look at the blend of a team rather than focussing on an individual player's stranghts and weaknesses, and fail also to acknowledge the effect that other players' performances has on how any individual plays. Xhaka is not a good DM for us principally because he lacks recovery pace. But he has been oustanding in his role for Switzerland, and this season in his advanced role. In assessing his worth to the team, it is only fair to assess Xhaka in a position/role that maximises his strengths as well as in a position that doesn't. This is the manager's role - and like with other aspects of a team that now looks to be clicking in a way it hasn't previously - Arteta seems so far this season to have got it right.

[Mac76]

you have (IMO) fallen into the trap of making Xhaka the lightening rod for our team's disappointments over the past few years. T

so why do so many people do that? it's not by chance - can it be because he really is the weak link in the team?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I do not think that you 'hate' Xhaka. I understand that you (and others) feel (a) that his skills are not suited for the EPL/our continued progress and (b) that he will revert to type - particularly in the 'big' games. Where I think you are biased in reaching your conclusions is in 3 respects. Firstly - you have (IMO) fallen into the trap of making Xhaka the lightening rod for our team's disappointments over the past few years. There is no other Arsenal player who has suffered as much from this phenomenon - despite plenty of them having far more to answer for in this regard. I have shown on other threads, for example, how his disciplinary record is not as bad as most people would think over his time with us. Yet the accepted truth is that he has cost us many games by being sent off. You also present as 'empirical evidence' the fact that the player has made mistakes - in particular giving the ball away. But this 'evidence' is totally meaningless in any determinative sense. Every player makes mistakes. Every player gives the ball away. You say you'd be astonished if he wasn't the worst, or in the top 3 in the team in this regard. I would be surprised if he was, and even if this is the case, you have to consider where he plays, and the fact that a MF is likely to have far more touches on the ball than other positions. The real reason for your conclusion is that this is pre-determined based on your own preconceptions.

The second 'trap' I think you fall into is equating what are admittedly present 'defects' in Xhaka's game (lack of pace and needing space to do what he does best - delivering passes) with general personal and tactical failings. If you think that Xhaka lacks personal qualities - leadership; committment; team player etc - then it is you, not I who is not looking at the evidence, or at the very least failing to balance the 'bad' with the good. I could list a number of examples of how Xhaka has displayed oustanding professionalism, but I think that the way in which he has turned things round since the nadir of that Crystal Palace game speaks for itself. You point to tactical failings (I get that you are speaking of Arteta here, but it is an important aspeact of Xhaka's game also). There have been no other players in our team who have been asked to play in so many different roles during his time with us - and this alone suggests an ability to understand the game tactically. Ian Wright's analysis of Xhaka last Sunday highlighted an interesting aspect of his game - and that was how he constantly looked around him when receiving the ball to assess what space he had to deliver a pass. This is not an attirbute of a player without tactical awareness - quite the opposite.

Finally, you fail (apparently) to understand that you need to look at the blend of a team rather than focussing on an individual player's stranghts and weaknesses, and fail also to acknowledge the effect that other players' performances has on how any individual plays. Xhaka is not a good DM for us principally because he lacks recovery pace. But he has been oustanding in his role for Switzerland, and this season in his advanced role. In assessing his worth to the team, it is only fair to assess Xhaka in a position/role that maximises his strengths as well as in a position that doesn't. This is the manager's role - and like with other aspects of a team that now looks to be clicking in a way it hasn't previously - Arteta seems so far this season to have got it right.

Again I’m afraid you’re doing that thing again. Words come out of the mouth not the Anus

I haven’t discussed Xhaka as a person, there’s no need to. I’m not talking about any personal or leadership failings. I’m talking about his ability as a footballer pure and simple.

I feel like I will go mad explaining this. Central midfield is the most important area in the pitch, it’s more often than not where games are decided. It’s not because Xhaka is lazy that he gives away the ball it’s because he lacks the ability to retain possession under pressure, it’s not that he was played for too long in the DM role that makes him a liability it’s because he lacks awareness of what’s going on around him when he doesn’t have the ball….he doesn’t have a footballing brain. Which means he cannot read, anticipate where he’s meant to be especially if we lose the ball he can’t anticipate and then as a result is more likely to make rash challenges…it’s not a personal defect, it’s a footballing defect.
As a footballer you either have it or you don’t, Walcott was a good athlete and a decent striker of the ball but he couldn’t even look up on the ball because he didn’t know what his own feet were doing.
I’m not saying this to be insulting, you’re either made that way or you’re not. And to exist in this league without being exposed….Xhaka isn’t built

[IBK]

Again I’m afraid you’re doing that thing again. Words come out of the mouth not the Anus

Unnecessary.


I haven’t discussed Xhaka as a person, there’s no need to. I’m not talking about any personal or leadership failings. I’m talking about his ability as a footballer pure and simple.

And in doing so you ignore a significant part of what a player can bring to a team, and a principal reason why succesive managers have had the player as an ever present in their teams. We have often in recent years lamented the lack of leadership in the team. One can't do this on the one hand and then dismiss the value of a player who shows (mostly) leadership commitment and professionalism.


It’s not because Xhaka is lazy that he gives away the ball it’s because he lacks the ability to retain possession under pressure, it’s not that he was played for too long in the DM role that makes him a liability it’s because he lacks awareness of what’s going on around him when he doesn’t have the ball….he doesn’t have a footballing brain. Which means he cannot read, anticipate where he’s meant to be especially if we lose the ball he can’t anticipate and then as a result is more likely to make rash challenges…it’s not a personal defect, it’s a footballing defect.

Your opinion only. Not a fact. And not supported by the evidence. Xhaka is the most important player in his international team and an ever-present in ours. I have acknowledged that he lacks pace (the reason for many of the rash challenges that he has made at times). But it simply doesn't make any sense that he lacks a footballing brain or can't anticipate what is going to happen on the pitch. I gave you a clear example (Ian Wright's MOTD analysis) that debunks what you are saying.


As a footballer you either have it or you don’t, Walcott was a good athlete and a decent striker of the ball but he couldn’t even look up on the ball because he didn’t know what his own feet were doing.
I’m not saying this to be insulting, you’re either made that way or you’re not. And to exist in this league without being exposed….Xhaka isn’t built

I disagree - and Xhaka's performances this season (and if we are fair and honest) much of last season support my stance. IMO Xhaka is nowhere near as inept as those with confirmation bias suggest.

[HCZ_Reborn]

This is becoming tiresome and I’m sorry but if you keep talking out of your backside it’s not reasonable to point the finger at me for calling attention to it.

I’m sure Xhaka does provide presence in the dressing room, but none of that is relevant when on the pitch he plays in the most important area and he’s not good enough in possession to be trusted there. He isn’t quick enough, he can’t dribble…he can only pass when given the time to get the ball onto his favoured foot.

Nothing else you’re saying negates this.

He has a huge international presence? Tell me this, if a team that comprised of every Switzerland international played in the premier league would it get in the top ten let alone the top four?

You really need to let go with this. Apart from anything else nothing you or I say matters he’s going to continue to be played and my opinion based a) on his lack of footballing attributes and b) what we’ve seen consistently in the past is that it will come back to haunt us.

And you’re evidence that someone doesn’t lack a footballing brain is a clip analysed by someone who doesn’t have a brain full stop? I love Wrighty but expecting coherent analysis from him is like expecting my nephew to understand the factors involved in the collapse of the Soviet Union.

[Mac76]

Apart from anything else nothing you or I say matters he’s going to continue to be played and my opinion based a) on his lack of footballing attributes and b) what we’ve seen consistently in the past is that it will come back to haunt us.

again, it's this for me, the fact he's been no 1 on the team sheet ever since Arteta's arrival (and Emery before him), despite prior to this season being a total liability, says that there is a questionable dynamic there akin to 'teacher's pet' syndrome, where Xhaka's quickly inserting himself into the backside of a new manager has saved him from being demoted or sold numerous times. Arteta would literally have taken out a gun and shot Guendouzi, Pepe or Auba for doing half the things that Xhaka has done, yet he gets away with it

ok, Xhaka playing further up the pitch takes him out of his real danger zone and it works against lesser teams, when as you say he is given the time to play a good pass (which he admittedly can do), but ultimately he is not a player fit for a team which wants to be bona fide top 4 contenders

so totally agree that Arteta's obsession with him is unhealthy and will hold us back