Arsenal vs Chelsea Player Ratings and Match Reaction

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ramsdale - 7 Good save from Chilwell, couldn’t do much about the Madueke goal


White - 6 Dwelt on the ball too long at times


Kiwior - 7 Decent debut start, looked a bit shaky at first but settled down well


Gabriel - 6 Looked a bit off the pace after pulling up, should have been brought off earlier


Zinchenko - 4 Just stop playing him


Jorginho - 8 - Shame he came off, just a tidy player


Xhaka - 7 - Not bad, looked to get forward well, unlucky not to get another goal


Odegaard - 8 - Back to near his best


Trossard - 7 - Dangerous on the left, would like a bit more goal contribution from him overall


Jesus - 7 - Takes chances, misses chances….sums him up


Saka - 6 - Wasteful needs to be dropped


Subs

Tierney
Martinelli
Holding
Partey

- 6 - Never really had chance to impose themselves on the game


Can’t complain too much given we’ve scored 81 goals this season, but sometimes it does feel like we take our knee off the throat too early sometimes. We could have buried Chelsea but we didn’t, and whilst they were never for me in any real danger of getting back into the game….it would have been nice to keep a clean sheet.

Changes were brought, and we looked more confident though it’s hard to tell if this was indicative of who we were up against. Expect Brighton to be a tougher match than this.

[Marc Overmars]

Yeah I thought Jorginho was decent too. Bit of a breath of fresh air from watching Partey play himself into trouble like he’s been doing lately.

I agree Saka needs to be dropped. I think his season is done, struggling to really make an impact now and he’s probably only playing in hope of some individual brilliance happening.

I think Newcastle will be the end of the road but hopefully we rally and produce something great, which will force City to be perfect from there on.

[mandela8]

Saka's standard hasn't dropped at all. He's been consistent all season. Eyes are simply, eventually, beginning to open.

I'm absolutely convinced he has leverage on Arteta.

[Mac76]

@HCZ good to see some more realistic scoring and agree with the comments :faint:

I really like Jorginho and Kiwior seemed tidy enough.

But I do hope Gabriel is ok for Sunday, as you say should def have been subbed earlier

I'd start that side again v Newcastle but with Tierney, Martinelli and Nelson for Zin, Jesus and Saka

[IBK]

Nice to have a win - and we played well in the first 60 minutes, but the question has to be asked whether this was partly down to Chelsea's ineptitude. Sunday will be a much sterner test.

I am pleased that Arteta rang the changes, and in particular that Kiwor was OK. He needed a game to be able to be considered for a start on Sunday, and I think he will be. I agree that Saka looks tired, and I would also start Nelson in his position for Sunday - with the option of bringing Saka on. I don't think Saka was as bad as some are making out, however, and I feel that the frustration is more that Arteta is continuing to hope that he will reproduce his earlier season form and refusing to rest him than anything else. Still, replacing both wide forwards last night might have been a change too many and I hope that Martinelli's little rest means that he will bang when we need him in 4 days time.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t think Saka was awful, but if you’re of the view of Mandela this is just par for the course. If like everyone else in existence you think Saka is an immensely talented player who torments his full back and causes all kinds of uncertainty for back lines….but you also think that he’s not living up to those standards. He dropped off last season and didn’t start this season all that well.
I don’t know what that’s about but I certainly don’t think competition in that position would do him any harm. I think personally Martinelli is a more consistent performer and has this season anyway been better than Saka, it may be overall that he’s a better player but they are both excellent players who we are fortunate to have.

But I don’t like the idea of any player being undroppable be it Saka, Xhaka or Zinchenko.

[Mac76]

Just a thought, but while I think Arteta's reluctance to drop Saka is mostly his characteristic intransigence, I was also wondering whether, with some of the world's biggest clubs allegedly having their eye on him, he is worried about annoying Saka at all and lessening his desire to stay at Arsenal?

[Marc Overmars]

Saka just looks a little spent to me. He’s been at the centre of so much good this season, moments that have swung games in our favour but right now he could do with being taken out the firing line.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

If our leader could switch on his thinking bulb, he could easily give Saka a rest by playing Trossard there.... he did it in a particular game and the world did not cave in.

However as much as his form has dropped, I'd rather put Jesus on the bench, play Trossard through the middle and give Saka 45 mins to do his thing. Nelson coming in as a sub for him in the next half is ok. Or even brining in Jesus as an impact sub (Trossard would then move to the Saka position).

He broke Saka mentally and physically by playing him 90 mins over and over again, even when jt was clear he was struggling with the unrelenting limelight and pressure.

Even Messi was managed properly in his early days, hardly playing 90 mins every single match.

Youngsters of nowadays are weaker, few are mentally and physically as tough as Ronaldo was at that age.

[mandela8]

:haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

If our leader could switch on his thinking bulb, he could easily give Saka a rest by playing Trossard there.... he did it in a particular game and the world did not cave in.

However as much as his form has dropped, I'd rather put Jesus on the bench, play Trossard through the middle and give Saka 45 mins to do his thing. Nelson coming in as a sub for him in the next half is ok. Or even brining in Jesus as an impact sub (Trossard would then move to the Saka position).

He broke Saka mentally and physically by playing him 90 mins over and over again, even when jt was clear he was struggling with the unrelenting limelight and pressure.

Even Messi was managed properly in his early days, hardly playing 90 mins every single match.

Youngsters of nowadays are weaker, few are mentally and physically as tough as Ronaldo was at that age.

It has been interesting watching the odd game with large (sometimes months long) gaps in between. I have been able to see the marked difference in individuals as well as the team as a whole from a different perspective to fans that watch week in week out. I didn't watch that farcical world cup either so wasn't caught up in the Saka lovefest.

From what I've seen Saka hasn't really improved that much, if at all. But it's hard to say because he was in such a shitty team last season so he stood out. Now the team has improved (in some key areas) maybe Saka has faded a bit in terms of prominence. I don't know if you were actually comparing him to Ronaldo, but that would not be valid at all. It's night and day. Ronaldo was a freak, Saka isn't on the same planet. But he's a decent enough young prospect that needs to do his time, develop his game and gain the experience necessary to influence games on a consistent basis. He doesn't do that yet. Unfortunately he'll probably do the opposite, buy into the hype, focus on the money and soon enough fuck off to some mega club where he'll become a bit part like so many others. Hope not, but we'll see.

I don't accept excuses about the mental challenges though. He should be up to that already. It's the PL after all, and he's being paid a fortune at a time when many are struggling to eat. If you can't get your shit together with that sort of advantage then it's a fundamental weakness that ought to worry people. I don't think that's the problem anyway. Arsenal isn't the finished article and he needs better players around him. He needs teammates that don't shit their nickers when City pitch up on the schedule.

Martinelli is the player who has stood out for me. Such a big difference between last season and this. And he's had to cope with the same limitations as Saka, but it hasn't hampered him as much, by what I can see from snapshots over time.

Still, these are two players that form the basis of a decent team and eventually squad, if the dealings in the transfer market are managed with at least a degree of competence. Big if.

Shame about ESR. Can't think of what possibly happened there because he looked the best of the three.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It has been interesting watching the odd game with large (sometimes months long) gaps in between. I have been able to see the marked difference in individuals as well as the team as a whole from a different perspective to fans that watch week in week out. I didn't watch that farcical world cup either so wasn't caught up in the Saka lovefest.

From what I've seen Saka hasn't really improved that much, if at all. But it's hard to say because he was in such a shitty team last season so he stood out. Now the team has improved (in some key areas) maybe Saka has faded a bit in terms of prominence. I don't know if you were actually comparing him to Ronaldo, but that would not be valid at all. It's night and day. Ronaldo was a freak, Saka isn't on the same planet. But he's a decent enough young prospect that needs to do his time, develop his game and gain the experience necessary to influence games on a consistent basis. He doesn't do that yet. Unfortunately he'll probably do the opposite, buy into the hype, focus on the money and soon enough fuck off to some mega club where he'll become a bit part like so many others. Hope not, but we'll see.

I don't accept excuses about the mental challenges though. He should be up to that already. It's the PL after all, and he's being paid a fortune at a time when many are struggling to eat. If you can't get your shit together with that sort of advantage then it's a fundamental weakness that ought to worry people. I don't think that's the problem anyway. Arsenal isn't the finished article and he needs better players around him. He needs teammates that don't shit their nickers when City pitch up on the schedule.

Martinelli is the player who has stood out for me. Such a big difference between last season and this. And he's had to cope with the same limitations as Saka, but it hasn't hampered him as much, by what I can see from snapshots over time.

Still, these are two players that form the basis of a decent team and eventually squad, if the dealings in the transfer market are managed with at least a degree of competence. Big if.

Shame about ESR. Can't think of what possibly happened there because he looked the best of the three.


There’s a lot there I agree with. I don’t know who has been comparing Saka to Ronaldo but no you’re right he’s not that level and never will be, players like Ronaldo exist in a class of their own, as you say freak (a word I often attribute to someone like Haaland who is clearly miles better than anyone we have in our team). Saka will not get to that level, he’s not going to be a Thierry Henry for us. In terms of players for this club he’s more in the mould of Michael Thomas/David Rocastle. And that’s no bad thing…I’ve a lot of time for Saka and I think you’re right last season he was the stand out player in a lot of shit and now because as you state Martinelli has improved so much he has faded somewhat.

Saka is still one of our best players, and I would definitely play him more often than I wouldn’t. But I don’t like the fact that he seems to be undroppable.


Martinelli seems to get dropped more and I think this rather unfair because he and Odegaard have been the two best players for us this season

ESR? Not sure if I would agree with you there. Just a poor man’s Jack Wilshere and he never reached his full potential due to injury.

[IBK]

There’s a lot there I agree with. I don’t know who has been comparing Saka to Ronaldo but no you’re right he’s not that level and never will be, players like Ronaldo exist in a class of their own, as you say freak (a word I often attribute to someone like Haaland who is clearly miles better than anyone we have in our team). Saka will not get to that level, he’s not going to be a Thierry Henry for us. In terms of players for this club he’s more in the mould of Michael Thomas/David Rocastle. And that’s no bad thing…I’ve a lot of time for Saka and I think you’re right last season he was the stand out player in a lot of shit and now because as you state Martinelli has improved so much he has faded somewhat.

Saka is still one of our best players, and I would definitely play him more often than I wouldn’t. But I don’t like the fact that he seems to be undroppable.


Martinelli seems to get dropped more and I think this rather unfair because he and Odegaard have been the two best players for us this season

ESR? Not sure if I would agree with you there. Just a poor man’s Jack Wilshere and he never reached his full potential due to injury.

Agree with most of that. Re ESR I'm not sure that we can assess his current form because we have not seen him play for any length of time. Its seems odd that our second highest scorer for 2021/22 - in front of Odegard and Martinelli that season - has suddenly become a player without the potential to improve like they, and Saka have. He was also a good link player - that should have been able to work in Arteta's preferred system - unlike, say Nketiah. I think your 'poor man's JW' comment is harsh simply because he hasn't been given a chance this season. I can remember that he was almost solely responsible for the uptick in our lamentable form before December 2021.

Generally speaking I think some fans (I'm not directing this at you BTW!) seem to think that our players are average simply because they are not at the level of Citeh's best. Citeh are a freak show of a team who can hoover up the best talent in the world. Most of our players would not get into that team, but neither would those from the other teams in the league. Our players have been good enough to run Citeh close for the title. That is not average.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Agree with most of that. Re ESR I'm not sure that we can assess his current form because we have not seen him play for any length of time. Its seems odd that our second highest scorer for 2021/22 - in front of Odegard and Martinelli that season - has suddenly become a player without the potential to improve like they, and Saka have. He was also a good link player - that should have been able to work in Arteta's preferred system - unlike, say Nketiah. I think your 'poor man's JW' comment is harsh simply because he hasn't been given a chance this season. I can remember that he was almost solely responsible for the uptick in our lamentable form before December 2021.

Generally speaking I think some fans (I'm not directing this at you BTW!) seem to think that our players are average simply because they are not at the level of Citeh's best. Citeh are a freak show of a team who can hoover up the best talent in the world. Most of our players would not get into that team, but neither would those from the other teams in the league. Our players have been good enough to run Citeh close for the title. That is not average.


In regards to ESR, I’m not basing my comments based on this season…you’re right that would be unfair

I’m basing it on the fact that I never rated him to begin with

My response to his goal scoring exploits?, well Aaron Ramsey scored a load of goals in one season and I think he was rubbish and I was glad when he left.

ESR was getting goals but his overall contribution on the pitch was limited, he was a hard worker (at times) but he was usually the beneficiary of intricate play elsewhere rather than making it himself. For some bizarre reason Arteta in the second half of last season took to playing Smith Rowe and Odegaard together at times which I thought was nuts. Smith Rowe lacks the raw pace to play on the wing so invariably drifts into the middle

Now not saying ESR is rubbish, I just don’t think he’s that good either. You compared him to Joe Willock and I think that’s a fair comparison. I think when Newcastle invariably improve their squad in the summer Willock will struggle to get a look in and now that we’ve improved our squad the same is true for ESR.

Now what irks me is that we are in for another English midfielder in Mason Mount. Now Mason Mount I do think is utter rubbish. I actually would prefer we persisted with Xhaka than sign him and my feelings about Xhaka are clear.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

It has been interesting watching the odd game with large (sometimes months long) gaps in between. I have been able to see the marked difference in individuals as well as the team as a whole from a different perspective to fans that watch week in week out. I didn't watch that farcical world cup either so wasn't caught up in the Saka lovefest.

From what I've seen Saka hasn't really improved that much, if at all. But it's hard to say because he was in such a shitty team last season so he stood out. Now the team has improved (in some key areas) maybe Saka has faded a bit in terms of prominence. I don't know if you were actually comparing him to Ronaldo, but that would not be valid at all. It's night and day. Ronaldo was a freak, Saka isn't on the same planet. But he's a decent enough young prospect that needs to do his time, develop his game and gain the experience necessary to influence games on a consistent basis. He doesn't do that yet. Unfortunately he'll probably do the opposite, buy into the hype, focus on the money and soon enough fuck off to some mega club where he'll become a bit part like so many others. Hope not, but we'll see.

I don't accept excuses about the mental challenges though. He should be up to that already. It's the PL after all, and he's being paid a fortune at a time when many are struggling to eat. If you can't get your shit together with that sort of advantage then it's a fundamental weakness that ought to worry people. I don't think that's the problem anyway. Arsenal isn't the finished article and he needs better players around him. He needs teammates that don't shit their nickers when City pitch up on the schedule.

Martinelli is the player who has stood out for me. Such a big difference between last season and this. And he's had to cope with the same limitations as Saka, but it hasn't hampered him as much, by what I can see from snapshots over time.

Still, these are two players that form the basis of a decent team and eventually squad, if the dealings in the transfer market are managed with at least a degree of competence. Big if.

Shame about ESR. Can't think of what possibly happened there because he looked the best of the three.

Great post and not much I could disagree with you about, except what I'll point out below

But first, to clarify I wasn't comparing Saka's talent directly with that of Ronaldo or Messi. The comparison I am trying to make is that though both kids were heralded as talents immediately they were teenagers and declared world beaters or game-changers ..they were handled differently, Messi didn't play every single minute for Barca, while as long a Ronaldo was fit, Ferguson was happy to give him all the playing time he needed.

Now clearly the latter is the old school approach which is favoured by most football purist (and Arteta, he has said so several times) it did little harm to old school talents like Pele and Best (this is probably arguable on the mental side in his case) and more modern talents like Owen, Gerard and Rooney....but, if you consider the Gen Z and those born slightly before it, basically born and raised in this era of social media determining morality and self worth, awesome video games , smartphones, "me too", gender debates and all sorts of mental crap that has weighed individuals down...their mental strength is pretty challenged due to all the self inflicted/invented life challenges they are trying to balance and surmount...my opinion anyway.

It was Maradona (or another Argentine coach) who complained bitterly that instead of training young Messi, Aguero and co. would rather be in their rooms on playstation for hours during team meets. Greenwood , who could have been special, has lost 2 or 3 years due to the social media induced rape scandal of his future wife (not taking sides on this debate BTW). We got a similar situation with Mendy and probably dozens of distracted young talents all over the world.

Though the latter examples are extreme, what I am trying to get at is these kids that hit the limelight to early have to many of these "distractions" stopping them from really being great and hiting their potential unlike the previous generations. I mean isn't it funny that despite the fact that we probably have more kids playing football than ever before, the conversation about the best players for the last 15 years is still Messi and Ronaldo? In almost 100 years of the game being popular we have never had a monopoly (or duopoly) like this...and I wonder if the answer could be that the other youngsters that should have challenged them have failed to step up due to these challenges/distractions they face.

So going back to the amount of games and pointing out examples, starting from home, Odegaard was an international by 15 or so, in the Madrid team by 16, yet only in the last 2-3 years under us are people saying he is finally fulfilling his potential. Both De Bruyne and Salah were internationals in their teens too and playing in top clubs in different leagues at Saka's age. We all know when these players started fufilling their potential (so no need to go into it) but all 3 of the players I mentioned played between 75 (Odegaard) to 145 (De Bruyne) top tier games before they clocked 22, Saka has already hit 175 and still counting! If you are trying to do something special (in our case win the League), I don't believe you can count on kids of this generation to stay focused for that long (play so many games) and keep performing.

To summarise my argument (as its getting too long now), I think any coach in the modern age that relies on a 16- 23 year old to be their game changers, there go to guy when the chips are down, any coach who fails to realise that most of these kids are built differently, is just setting himself up for heartbreak and being unfair to whatever poor kid he is fascinated with. If I am being plain, "these youngins are weak" (or more politically correct "overburdened") and that needs to be recognised.

Just how I feel about this brave new world we live in.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Agree with most of that. Re ESR I'm not sure that we can assess his current form because we have not seen him play for any length of time. Its seems odd that our second highest scorer for 2021/22 - in front of Odegard and Martinelli that season - has suddenly become a player without the potential to improve like they, and Saka have. He was also a good link player - that should have been able to work in Arteta's preferred system - unlike, say Nketiah. I think your 'poor man's JW' comment is harsh simply because he hasn't been given a chance this season. I can remember that he was almost solely responsible for the uptick in our lamentable form before December 2021.

Generally speaking I think some fans (I'm not directing this at you BTW!) seem to think that our players are average simply because they are not at the level of Citeh's best. Citeh are a freak show of a team who can hoover up the best talent in the world. Most of our players would not get into that team, but neither would those from the other teams in the league. Our players have been good enough to run Citeh close for the title. That is not average.

Oh and more directly, on the Martinelli vs Saka comparison you made, I disagree.

Martinelli has undoubtedly contributed more than any attacking player since the turn of the year and should be lauded for that. But its funny how his peak and Saka's decline this year has gone hand in hand with our tittle challenge dissipating. So though he's playing well now, he's not been able to carry the team like Saka did earlier this season when we were flying (and so was he).

Also, a lot of other differences. Martinelli is still not a starter for Brazil and has little pressure internationally as he is not rated and liked by their press. Totally different from Saka being the poster boy for a desperate nation.

Also, Martinelli has not been "killed" by Arteta, he's only played top tier footie with us and has 128 appearances. And we all know how he's faced competition and substitutions in his career, something Saka has never faced, even when he started off as a makeshift left back.

We have managed Martinelli's game time ( and the rest ) well if you ask me, but talent wise he is not on the same level as Saka ( at least for now) and I think most of the footballing world agrees on that ( again for now).

[Niall_Quinn]

Xhaka is greatly improved too. He's gone from being a malfunctioning, slow motion tennis machine, where every ball into him came back unless it went to an opponent in a mortally dangerous position, to a competent outlet in the middle with a focus on moving the team towards the opponent's goal. Not always, but more than usual. And with less silliness and carelessness you routinely see in Odegard's and Partey's play.

Arsenal of last season was a joke because the entire emphasis was on pointless possession. I get why that was now. I'd begged the manager to go back to basics because the players couldn't pass, couldn't shoot, couldn't take a corner, couldn't even take a throw-in that wasn't guaranteed to fuck it up. Obviously this wasn't down to a lack of basic skills, but rather a total lack of confidence and belief when they were under the slightest hint of pressure. So Arteta must have worked at that for a full season because now they can take a ball, move it up the field, retain possession and create goal scoring opportunities. The basics. Utilising their talent to control a game rather than survive it. It's not there yet, but it's closer to something worthwhile than at any time in a decade.

Xhaka has played a key role in this, from what I can see from the say 20% of games I've watched. Maybe he was shit in all the other games, doubt it though. Seems he gets dragged every single time he makes a mistake or loses his cool, while other players get a pass. He's a good player. Not great. He's as good as anything I have seen in the league bar the obvious exceptions at the big money clubs. Unless somebody at the club has the same sort of insider data Wenger possessed when he first arrived I don't see who's going to come in and do any better with Odegard and Partey around them.

Buy an experienced and PL hardened replacement for Partey maybe. Now you are talking. Could be cheap too. That would provide a benefit for everyone concerned. That Jorghinio (is it?) looked okay as a stop-gap but somebody was saying he's a hundred years old? Still a step up from Partey though, again because he has discipline, doesn't panic and has his eye focused up the pitch rather than back to the nearest easy target. He might do for another season.

The real money should be going on a 30 goal striker. Can't do anything much without that. I'd put a big bid in for Kane if he's not already tied down to a silly contract. Although I guess Utd would just buy anyone we bid for. Tough. But the striker is what's needed. Our current options are too delicate and would be better utilised in strengthening the bench or rotating through the middle what with a busier season.

[Marc Overmars]

Would agree with signing a top striker. There aren’t many around but we should be putting all our efforts into finding one.

IMO one of the biggest contributors to our drop off has been Jesus’ reintroduction. I thought pre-World Cup he was pressing like an animal up front, but now he seems to be dropping deeper and deeper to pick up the ball and doesn’t appear to press at all. You want your striker to be anticipating how he’s going to score rather than going in search of the ball in areas of the pitch he doesn’t need to be. I don’t know whether that’s a system thing or just how he’s trying to play post injury, but I don’t think it’s helped at all.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Generally speaking I think some fans (I'm not directing this at you BTW!) seem to think that our players are average simply because they are not at the level of Citeh's best. Citeh are a freak show of a team who can hoover up the best talent in the world. Most of our players would not get into that team, but neither would those from the other teams in the league. Our players have been good enough to run Citeh close for the title. That is not average.

I find this paragraph interesting, probably because I am one of the fans who thinks Arteta's system makes a lot of our players look better than they are and not the other way around.

But let me ask, looking at the Chelsea team we beat convincingly, how many of those players would you take over our players? Lets be honest, if given the chance and you were building your own team, would you choose:

Ramsdale over both Kepa and Mendy?

White over Azipilicueta as RB

Zin over Chilwell

Kiwior over Silva & Fofana

Gabriel over Silva & Fofana

Xhaka over Enzo or Kante

Jorginho over Enzo or Kante ( I think Chelsea have answered this already)

Trossard over Sterling & Ziyech


I have left Odegaard out as their was no like for like player playing.

And Saka and Jesus win their toss for now if you aks me.

We've not even started talking about their bench with Felix and Mudryk and co.

But interested in how people rate our players, not on form (as clearly we win, but that has shown to be temporary) but on class and talent.

[Marc Overmars]

I find this paragraph interesting, probably because I am one of the fans who thinks Arteta's system makes a lot of our players look better than they are and not the other way around.

But let me ask, looking at the Chelsea team we beat convincingly, how many of those players would you take over our players? Lets be honest, if given the chance and you were building your own team, would you choose:

Ramsdale over both Kepa and Mendy?

White over Azipilicueta as RB

Zin over Chilwell

Kiwior over Silva & Fofana

Gabriel over Silva & Fofana

Xhaka over Enzo or Kante

Jorginho over Enzo or Kante ( I think Chelsea have answered this already)

Trossard over Sterling & Ziyech


I have left Odegaard out as their was no like for like player playing.

And Saka and Jesus win their toss for now if you aks me.

We've not even started talking about their bench with Felix and Mudryk and co.

But interested in how people rate our players, not on form (as clearly we win, but that has shown to be temporary) but on class and talent.

I actually had this convo with my mate while we watched us get systematically destroyed by City.

It’s not just an Arteta thing either, it’s always been about the system pretty much since the Invincibles disbanded. Wenger kept us in the top 4 for years with plenty of players who most fans were never fond of.

We haven’t had truly great individuals for a long time, players who would be deemed amongst the best in class. I think this is borne out by the fact not many leave Arsenal and go on to have stellar careers.

A great system will get you close but it’s probably the great players that actually get you over the line.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I find this paragraph interesting, probably because I am one of the fans who thinks Arteta's system makes a lot of our players look better than they are and not the other way around.

But let me ask, looking at the Chelsea team we beat convincingly, how many of those players would you take over our players? Lets be honest, if given the chance and you were building your own team, would you choose:

Ramsdale over both Kepa and Mendy?

White over Azipilicueta as RB

Zin over Chilwell

Kiwior over Silva & Fofana

Gabriel over Silva & Fofana

Xhaka over Enzo or Kante

Jorginho over Enzo or Kante ( I think Chelsea have answered this already)

Trossard over Sterling & Ziyech


I have left Odegaard out as their was no like for like player playing.

And Saka and Jesus win their toss for now if you aks me.

We've not even started talking about their bench with Felix and Mudryk and co.

But interested in how people rate our players, not on form (as clearly we win, but that has shown to be temporary) but on class and talent.

With the exception of Chilwell and Enzo Fernandes I’d take almost all of our players over Chelseas

Kante is old, Silva is ridiculously old, Azpilicueta is old, Sterling is a busted flush. Their goalkeepers are average. This Chelsea side if properly managed should be top six, but better than us player for player? Not for me.

Our central midfield is shit but even then I’d take Partey over Kante

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

With the exception of Chilwell and Enzo Fernandes I’d take almost all of our players over Chelseas

Kante is old, Silva is ridiculously old, Azpilicueta is old, Sterling is a busted flush. Their goalkeepers are average. This Chelsea side if properly managed should be top six, but better than us player for player? Not for me.

Our central midfield is shit but even then I’d take Partey over Kante

Silva is so ridiculously old that he made a calm classy goal line clearance that any lover of defending would have knocked one out to.

Anyway, wouldn't want to get into the forever youth project debate and say, because we have young talent they can only improve...we had more than two decades of doing that under AW and we all saw how great the Jeffers, Denilsons, Senderoses and Lord Bendtners improved under our careful tutelage.

Its better this is kept as a would you take me "as I am" debate to keep it practical and less discriminatory (at least for the ageist among us anyway).

And as a side comment....with the way experienced hands transformed this team this season ( i e. Jesus, Zin, Jorginho and Trossard) I would have thought most of us would have gotten over our fascination for all things young.

[The Wengerbabies]

It was only a matter of time before Saka went the way of all our other "wonderkids" like Walcott or Wilshere or countless other so much promise ultimately fading to nothing.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Silva is so ridiculously old that he made a calm classy goal line clearance that any lover of defending would have knocked one out to.

Anyway, wouldn't want to get into the forever youth project debate and say, because we have young talent they can only improve...we had more than two decades of doing that under AW and we all saw how great the Jeffers, Denilsons, Senderoses and Lord Bendtners improved under our careful tutelage.

Its better this is kept as a would you take me "as I am" debate to keep it practical and less discriminatory (at least for the ageist among us anyway).

And as a side comment....with the way experienced hands transformed this team this season ( i e. Jesus, Zin, Jorginho and Trossard) I would have thought most of us would have gotten over our fascination for all things young.

Zinchenko has transformed our season alright

Plus we aren’t talking about players in their mid to late twenties we are talking about players well in their thirties.

Plus Fofana is young and is a rubbish defender

With the greatest of respect you’ve gone from blaming Arteta to the players not being great. We’ve got a good squad of players, it’s not City’s level but it’s better than most of the other teams around us.

[Niall_Quinn]

Oh and more directly, on the Martinelli vs Saka comparison you made, I disagree.

Martinelli has undoubtedly contributed more than any attacking player since the turn of the year and should be lauded for that. But its funny how his peak and Saka's decline this year has gone hand in hand with our tittle challenge dissipating. So though he's playing well now, he's not been able to carry the team like Saka did earlier this season when we were flying (and so was he).

Also, a lot of other differences. Martinelli is still not a starter for Brazil and has little pressure internationally as he is not rated and liked by their press. Totally different from Saka being the poster boy for a desperate nation.

Also, Martinelli has not been "killed" by Arteta, he's only played top tier footie with us and has 128 appearances. And we all know how he's faced competition and substitutions in his career, something Saka has never faced, even when he started off as a makeshift left back.

We have managed Martinelli's game time ( and the rest ) well if you ask me, but talent wise he is not on the same level as Saka ( at least for now) and I think most of the footballing world agrees on that ( again for now).

TBH I've given up trying to second guess Arteta, though I'm not sure I ever started because I was kind of getting out of football around the time he came in. I wanted him in before Dick wasted everyones time. But wasn't much bothered after that. What I'm mainly focused on is the difference between Arsenal last yer and this year. And it has dawned on me - fuck, I wouldn't have had the first clue where to begin to get last year's absolute shit-kickers to where they are now. I suppose Arteta could have been lucky, or the players stepped up after decades of not being arsed. But it's more likely Arteta has been getting a lot right, even if he hasn't nailed everything yet.

Let's just say I'd rather he was in charge than me. He's delivered something I couldn't hope to so I defer to his results. And results are the only thing that matter to me, not speculation, or excuses, or whatever.

That preface is to explain why I see more in Martinelli than Saka. There was a moment in that chav match where Martinelli picked up the ball, controlled it without thought (while simultaneously assessing his options) and then dipped a shoulder and set off towards the opposition goal. Really reminded me of a young Giggs. I hate Giggs but he was a hell of a player. Martinelli has that same ambition now backed with the talent to deliver - the one thing he couldn't do to save his life last season. I don't see the same believe in Saka, yet. He seems more conservative on the ball which often robs him of the opportunity to express his talent.

I found myself urging, "Come on, give it a go!", when watching Saka, while it was, "Unlucky lad, good effort!" when watching Martinelli. What I mean is Saka often doesn't get into the places where Martinelli goes so a like for like comparison can be made.

It's a purely observational thing and related to enjoyment of watching the two players, rather than a coaches analysis which is becoming increasingly clear I'm not qualified to make. I have my opinions for sure, like any fan should. But beyond that I actually find myself enjoying watching Saka and Martinelli play and (I didn't believe it could happen) intrigued as to whether Arteta can take this further. I hope the fans don't jump on the latter too hard if we have a few dips along the way. This really is the first progress I've seen in almost 2 decades.

So I think we are talking different things. And, like I said, I've watched around 20% of the games, if that. Based on what I have seen Martinelli is the player who might become the next thing. He has the attributes. Of course we'll sell him on the cheap but that's another issue.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

With the greatest of respect you’ve gone from blaming Arteta to the players not being great. We’ve got a good squad of players, it’s not City’s level but it’s better than most of the other teams around us.

To think you are the first person to respond to posters by complaining they are thinking to binary.

I have been consistent, never really rating our players as the best in the League. Saka and Partey are the only standouts that I know every team will be willing to give a contract and I have been consistent on that.

As for Arteta, I criticise him for not doing more, panicking (or staying frozen), and making obvious mistakes that IMO a more experienced hand would not make. However I have always lauded a system that overnight turns a bunch of decent players into League challengers and initially fixed nagging problems we'd carried for decades

I believe I have been watching sport for too long to discern that the team with the best players doesn't necessarily win a competition.. PSG have had the best squad for the past 4 years or so and are yet to win the CL , same could be said for Citeh under Pep. When Barca were at their pomp with the trinity of Xavi, Iniesta and Messi they only had like 2 CLs or so. Leicester won the league without the best group of players and both Liverpool and Man U have managed to snatch a league title from City and Chelsea who usually have the best players.

Its a team sport, and if I don't include Real Madrid, most teams win competitions on how effective the team is as a unit. Cohesion is the key word here. You could ask Bayern what they are going through in the bundesliga right now.

Could we win the league with this set of players who gave such brilliant early performances and showed the kind of cohesion and fight ingspirit needed? Of course. If we get better players next season will that give us a better chance? Well maybe, it all depends if he can get the cohesion right again and other teams don't improve that drastically (something we cannot control so should not really be considered if you ask me).

Finally, I am not sure any gooner is old enough to say there was a time where Arsena undoubtedlyl had better players than the teams we competed against. People forget that even the Invincibles had a naive Kolo Toure (who had achieved nothing, was only in his 2nd season and was a makeshift CB that AW created), an average player called Freddie who played his heart out and gave scintillating performance week in and out. We also had at that time probably the dullest and most unBrazillian like player ever, Gilberto, who would later be heralded as genius as more people came to understand the "disruptor" role better and it benefits. This kind of role would soon be replicated and coveted in almost every top team. And Bergkamp, well he had passed his prime but class remained solid. In short, our players were not the best set of players that year and that's my opinion.

Even if you don't agree about the Invincibles, would you say all the other times we won the league and other competitions in the past 50 years we had the best set of players?

Coney or Letters, could you help us settle this last part.

IMO, if Man Citeh win the treble this year, its not because they had the best players, they've had that for ages. It will be because of the cohesion that Pep created in the squad that allows them to play their brand of football on all fronts while still being able to deal with setbacks adequately.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

TBH I've given up trying to second guess Arteta, though I'm not sure I ever started because I was kind of getting out of football around the time he came in. I wanted him in before Dick wasted everyones time. But wasn't much bothered after that. What I'm mainly focused on is the difference between Arsenal last yer and this year. And it has dawned on me - fuck, I wouldn't have had the first clue where to begin to get last year's absolute shit-kickers to where they are now. I suppose Arteta could have been lucky, or the players stepped up after decades of not being arsed. But it's more likely Arteta has been getting a lot right, even if he hasn't nailed everything yet.

Let's just say I'd rather he was in charge than me. He's delivered something I couldn't hope to so I defer to his results. And results are the only thing that matter to me, not speculation, or excuses, or whatever.

That preface is to explain why I see more in Martinelli than Saka. There was a moment in that chav match where Martinelli picked up the ball, controlled it without thought (while simultaneously assessing his options) and then dipped a shoulder and set off towards the opposition goal. Really reminded me of a young Giggs. I hate Giggs but he was a hell of a player. Martinelli has that same ambition now backed with the talent to deliver - the one thing he couldn't do to save his life last season. I don't see the same believe in Saka, yet. He seems more conservative on the ball which often robs him of the opportunity to express his talent.

I found myself urging, "Come on, give it a go!", when watching Saka, while it was, "Unlucky lad, good effort!" when watching Martinelli. What I mean is Saka often doesn't get into the places where Martinelli goes so a like for like comparison can be made.

It's a purely observational thing and related to enjoyment of watching the two players, rather than a coaches analysis which is becoming increasingly clear I'm not qualified to make. I have my opinions for sure, like any fan should. But beyond that I actually find myself enjoying watching Saka and Martinelli play and (I didn't believe it could happen) intrigued as to whether Arteta can take this further. I hope the fans don't jump on the latter too hard if we have a few dips along the way. This really is the first progress I've seen in almost 2 decades.

So I think we are talking different things. And, like I said, I've watched around 20% of the games, if that. Based on what I have seen Martinelli is the player who might become the next thing. He has the attributes. Of course we'll sell him on the cheap but that's another issue.

Yeah, another post of yours I can't argue much with.

If i was rating players mentally, Martinelli is easily the winner among all our young players. I've felt like that for ages, he sometimes reminds me of Bendtner who I mentioned earlier but without the arrogance, thank God, and the will to graft. But on pure talent, I must say I've seen little things Saka does that astound me. Its very probable that he might not reach his best, but I am pretty certain that only a career threatening injury could stop Martinelli from trying and trying to improve.

But just like people argue about Messi and Ronaldo, having that talent is a plus for any player and makes things easier. Wilshere still remains the best young talent I think we've ever had but look how it went when he couldn't get over the injuries and focus on his game anymore. He just stopped improving and kept relying the same God given talent...if anyone could follow that path, it'll be more likely Saka than Martinelli.

Another thing is when I watch Martinelli get the ball, its like he has something to prove every single time, its kind of admirable trait for young lad nowadays, but it also cuts both ways....at a point, you just need to trust your talent, its a bit difficult to explain, but it like you either got it or not.

And I know I am going back and forward, but I just remembered a game we played with Barca in the CL, as usual they were beating us and our whole team was panicking and playing crap, but Jack came in and played the most natural game I have ever seen an Arsenal player play against Barca. No crazy flicks, no crazy tricks, just plain old Jack playing Barca like he was having a kickabout with Leyton Orient....he just let his class show and even the Barca players were shocked to see someone not overawed by the occasion and playing so brilliantly in what was one of our pathetic teams.

Man their is just something about talent.

[HCZ_Reborn]

To think you are the first person to respond to posters by complaining they are thinking to binary.

I have been consistent, never really rating our players as the best in the League. Saka and Partey are the only standouts that I know every team will be willing to give a contract and I have been consistent on that.

As for Arteta, I criticise him for not doing more, panicking (or staying frozen), and making obvious mistakes that IMO a more experienced hand would not make. However I have always lauded a system that overnight turns a bunch of decent players into League challengers and initially fixed nagging problems we'd carried for decades

I believe I have been watching sport for too long to discern that the team with the best players doesn't necessarily win a competition.. PSG have had the best squad for the past 4 years or so and are yet to win the CL , same could be said for Citeh under Pep. When Barca were at their pomp with the trinity of Xavi, Iniesta and Messi they only had like 2 CLs or so. Leicester won the league without the best group of players and both Liverpool and Man U have managed to snatch a league title from City and Chelsea who usually have the best players.

Its a team sport, and if I don't include Real Madrid, most teams win competitions on how effective the team is as a unit. Cohesion is the key word here. You could ask Bayern what they are going through in the bundesliga right now.

Could we win the league with this set of players who gave such brilliant early performances and showed the kind of cohesion and fight ingspirit needed? Of course. If we get better players next season will that give us a better chance? Well maybe, it all depends if he can get the cohesion right again and other teams don't improve that drastically (something we cannot control so should not really be considered if you ask me).

Finally, I am not sure any gooner is old enough to say there was a time where Arsena undoubtedlyl had better players than the teams we competed against. People forget that even the Invincibles had a naive Kolo Toure (who had achieved nothing, was only in his 2nd season and was a makeshift CB that AW created), an average player called Freddie who played his heart out and gave scintillating performance week in and out. We also had at that time probably the dullest and most unBrazillian like player ever, Gilberto, who would later be heralded as genius as more people came to understand the "disruptor" role better and it benefits. This kind of role would soon be replicated and coveted in almost every top team. And Bergkamp, well he had passed his prime but class remained solid. In short, our players were not the best set of players that year and that's my opinion.

Even if you don't agree about the Invincibles, would you say all the other times we won the league and other competitions in the past 50 years we had the best set of players?

Coney or Letters, could you help us settle this last part.

IMO, if Man Citeh win the treble this year, its not because they had the best players, they've had that for ages. It will be because of the cohesion that Pep created in the squad that allows them to play their brand of football on all fronts while still being able to deal with setbacks adequately.


PSG don’t have the best squad not even close


And yes I generally believe the club with the best at the very least first XI win the prizes in the league, in a knockout competition that’s less of a certainty because you can win every game up to the semi final but if you have one off game you’re out all the same.

Arsenal are 2nd in my view as a result of having a better squad than the 18 teams below us yes. Chelsea have a squad full of decent players but mainly ageing players who aren’t performing….the situation the club is in is down to a mixture of Boehly and players who are just not performing (I believe Chelsea should be top six with their squad)

I think the power we ascribe to managers/coaches to affect results is vastly overstated. It’s hard to guage how good a manager Pep is because he’s throughout his managerial career always had the best material to work with. You could argue he’s underperformed with Bayern and in Europe with City.

Obviously a club like Man City will want a coach like Guardiola over say Frank Lampard, but when you have the squad they have it’s still 5-10% at most of the difference.

They have top quality in every position and depth. We have good quality in almost every position and less quality in depth


Sometimes you do get a manager that can get more out of a team than they appear capable of, and in that regard you’d have to look to Eddie Howe…they have a good spine of Isak, Guimares, Botman and Pope as well as players like Almiron. But they have been set up to be compact and devastating on the break. Most pundits make them favourites to beat us on Sunday but I absolutely do not believe they have a better team/squad than us and that will be borne out by the fact that we will finish above them at the end of the season.

Despite the fact that I think recruitment in central midfield has been lacking, we have very good players. Yes I think Saliba, Partey, Martinelli, Saka and Odegaard would get into almost any other side….the system helps but it doesn’t change the fact that these are good, capable players better than most others in the premier league currently (with the exception of Man City)

[mandela8]

I'll ask again...

Can anyone actually tell me these games Saka has been anything special?

Just 3 or 4 games, man.

I can tell you the games he got a couple of goals in but his general contribution was shite. I have next to no time for the nonsense that the 'assist' stat has become, so the games in which his general play has been "great".

Just a few games, man.

I'll wait.

Again.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

PSG don’t have the best squad not even close


And yes I generally believe the club with the best at the very least first XI win the prizes in the league, in a knockout competition that’s less of a certainty because you can win every game up to the semi final but if you have one off game you’re out all the same.

Arsenal are 2nd in my view as a result of having a better squad than the 18 teams below us yes. Chelsea have a squad full of decent players but mainly ageing players who aren’t performing….the situation the club is in is down to a mixture of Boehly and players who are just not performing (I believe Chelsea should be top six with their squad)

I think the power we ascribe to managers/coaches to affect results is vastly overstated. It’s hard to guage how good a manager Pep is because he’s throughout his managerial career always had the best material to work with. You could argue he’s underperformed with Bayern and in Europe with City.

Obviously a club like Man City will want a coach like Guardiola over say Frank Lampard, but when you have the squad they have it’s still 5-10% at most of the difference.

They have top quality in every position and depth. We have good quality in almost every position and less quality in depth


Sometimes you do get a manager that can get more out of a team than they appear capable of, and in that regard you’d have to look to Eddie Howe…they have a good spine of Isak, Guimares, Botman and Pope as well as players like Almiron. But they have been set up to be compact and devastating on the break. Most pundits make them favourites to beat us on Sunday but I absolutely do not believe they have a better team/squad than us and that will be borne out by the fact that we will finish above them at the end of the season.

Despite the fact that I think recruitment in central midfield has been lacking, we have very good players. Yes I think Saliba, Partey, Martinelli, Saka and Odegaard would get into almost any other side….the system helps but it doesn’t change the fact that these are good, capable players better than most others in the premier league currently (with the exception of Man City)

Yeah, PSG are probably not close to having the best players in the world. I mean how can they when they only have the most expensive player in the world playing for them. Or what about the 2nd most expensive player in the world, oh he plays for them too. Eff it, maybe we need to find out who the best player at the last World Cup was, darn it, he plays for them too. What about their last game, I mean their last starting lineup....no, again it only contained 3 WC semi finalist and 2 QF, surley some team on this earth must have fielded only WC winners last week? No?

Alright lets get serious, to closely equate where you finish in the league to the quality of players you have available in a squad is a bit lazy if you ask me. I mean lets use us an example; we added Jesus, Zin, Viera, Saliba , Jorginho, Trossard and recently Kiwor to our 1st team this season. According to you, none of them are among the truly exceptional players that are better than most of what the opposition have except Saliba. So largely our success this season has been achieved with the same set of players we had last season who finished an uncompetitive 5th. So are we saying our league position last season misrepresented the quality of our players seeing as the same set of players are suddenly better than everyone else except Man City?

Its confusing and gets more confusing considering the fact that Chelsea spent an extra £600m+ to ensure their team remained better than us, who they finished ahead of last season. Yes you point out that they have ageing players, but they stayed and £600m worth of EXTRA talent was added.... should that probably not to a neutral person suggest they have a better squad of players than they did last season when they finished ahead of us?

And then we have the "anomaly" of the same Chelsea, a top six side according to you, being considerably below the likes of Fulham, Brentford, Villa and Brighton (non top 6 side)... surely if the quality of players is so closely linked to League position, the variance should not be this much?

I mean is not safer and probably more accurate to err on the side of history that shows a teams performance can fluctuate even with the same set of players. Can't we simply say players can under/over perfom in a particular season without that necessarily affecting their quality. Xhaka is playing great now, but any poll of Gooners would definitely still sell him off and get someone else doing his job. Maybe it because we've watched him for 10 years, so we recognise an anomaly when we see it. Or it could just be prejudice, though I still feel its the former.

Now getting back to the power we ascribe to managers, I could not disagree with you more. I could use Chelsea again as an example but lets look at Villa . Gerard left this season with almost a 1/3 of their games played and only a point above the relegation zone. With just over 20 games under Emery they are already chasing Europe. Gerard's Villa played 12 games and only had 2 wins....Emery, using the same team has played 21 games and mastered 13 wins ( his 1st win was his first game against Man U BTW). Gerrard used a year to get 13 wins in 40 games, Emery has matched it in 5 months! He has used the same set of players only adding 2 players this January at the combined cost of less than 20m. Villa are scoring in every game and defending better than they ever had. (showing that be learnt from his mistakes with us). Coaches make significant differences and they don't need the best players to do this, or are we really going to say the Villa players given to Emery are better than what Lampard was given with Chelsea?

It all matters, and I am certain if you give Lampard :cough: sorry, I mean a poor manager the Citeh team, he would not come close to winning the league this year, even if he had Messi on the bench.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Having Neymar, Mbappe and Messi in your squad doesn’t mean you have the best team it means you have an expensive forward line

They don’t have any particular quality in midfield. And they dominate in the French league anyway


The two strongest teams in Europe by squad are Manchester City and Bayern Munich. Bayern have dominated the Bundesliga for years not because they’ve always had the best coach but because they have the strongest team.


A good coach can make s difference and a bad coach can be a drag factor of course. I’ve already accepted that it’s possible for a good coach to get players who shouldn’t be in the top 4 in there with Eddie Howe, but this is more of an outlier than the best teams winning things.

The argument I’ve made this season is that if Guardiola was coaching Arsenal we’d be where we are now, and if Arteta was coaching city they would be where they are now. Guardiola isn’t a tactical genius, he’s capable of the same mistakes and over reliance on one way of playing that Arteta is.

[Mac76]

The argument I’ve made this season is that if Guardiola was coaching Arsenal we’d be where we are now, and if Arteta was coaching city they would be where they are now. Guardiola isn’t a tactical genius, he’s capable of the same mistakes and over reliance on one way of playing that Arteta is.

Rubbish, Guardiola understands how to rotate, how to set your team up for a particular opposition and how to use subs

Arteta can't - or won't - do any of those things

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Having Neymar, Mbappe and Messi in your squad doesn’t mean you have the best team it means you have an expensive forward line

They don’t have any particular quality in midfield. And they dominate in the French league anyway


The two strongest teams in Europe by squad are Manchester City and Bayern Munich. Bayern have dominated the Bundesliga for years not because they’ve always had the best coach but because they have the strongest team.


A good coach can make s difference and a bad coach can be a drag factor of course. I’ve already accepted that it’s possible for a good coach to get players who shouldn’t be in the top 4 in there with Eddie Howe, but this is more of an outlier than the best teams winning things.

The argument I’ve made this season is that if Guardiola was coaching Arsenal we’d be where we are now, and if Arteta was coaching city they would be where they are now. Guardiola isn’t a tactical genius, he’s capable of the same mistakes and over reliance on one way of playing that Arteta is.

I'm not sure you watch PSG from the assertions you keep making about them, because quite often its the supporting acts that catch the eye, and people have recognised it, thats why players like Hakimi and Donnaruma ( who did not even make the WC) have both gotten into the FIFA pro 11(voted by 65k professionals evey year) and Neymar hasn't. In the last 2 years, no team has been represented more than PSG in that lineup ....but hey, lets not take awards, achievements and accolades for it, lets go with our opinions!

Anyway lets get back to these shores. You say Pep isn't a tactical genius (mootable) and over relies on sticking to the same system like Arteta...but surely their must be evidence to show that the latter is actually true?

We've played Citeh 3 times this year, twice in quick succession and recently. We setup the same way against City in both games in the league, though it could be argued he slightly tweaked it in our first meeting in the FA cup where he pulled a surprise and started Tierney instead of Zin (we all know how that affects our shape). Besides that, it's been like for like in all 3 games with pretty much the same players and his signature shape.

However Citeh did not use the same shape against us in any of the 3 games we played them. If you don't believe me please read it on the web as its just a search button away.

The closest Pep came to keeping his signature shape was in the first game, that was the only game he started and played his preferred 3 at the back. Funnily that was the only game on paper we stayed competitive (1-0 ), despite fielding a weakened side

Now, here are some links to show you how Pep specifically altered his shape to face us in the subsequent 2 games.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2023/feb/15/pep-guardiola-i-had-to-ditch-horrible-tactics-to-beat-arsenal

https://www.sportbible.com/football/pep-guardiola-man-city-arsenal-tactics-fan-reaction-763048-20230426

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12867335/manuel-akanji-at-left-back-pep-guardiolas-masterstroke-against-arsenal-turns-the-title-race-man-citys-way

If you still don't believe he altered his team to face us, just look at the sides he played immediately after 2 league games (Forest and Fulham), he immediately reverts to type (and the usual personnel) plays his favoured 3-2-4-1 ( or 3-2-5 if you prefer).

Logically anyone would think its the guy with the second best squad (according to you anyway) that would be adapting to play the head honcho, but the overwhelming evidence shows its been the other way round.

And in case you are wondering why Arteta behaves this way, it seems he's of the same school of thought as you, as he clearly doesn't believe that changing tactics within a game does much, he prefers to put the onus on the players. I can't find it now, but there is a direct quote where he says he knew Citeh was going to try something different but he didn't see the need to change things around or respond as he just has to "trust in the players". A pathetic kop out IMO.

I'll edit my post once I find the quote

So in short, no, I don't believe the two managers are the same (or similar) and would achieve the same results if switched around. If I am being honest, it could go either way for anyone of them.....but if you've seen my post history, you'll know I prefer managers who aren't rigid and immediately respond to changes within a match. My preference.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'm not sure you watch PSG from the assertions you keep making about them, because quite often its the supporting acts that catch the eye, and people have recognised it, thats why players like Hakimi and Donnaruma ( who did not even make the WC) have both gotten into the FIFA pro 11(voted by 65k professionals evey year) and Neymar hasn't. In the last 2 years, no team has been represented more than PSG in that lineup ....but hey, lets not take awards, achievements and accolades for it, lets go with our opinions!

Anyway lets get back to these shores. You say Pep isn't a tactical genius (mootable) and over relies on sticking to the same system like Arteta...but surely their must be evidence to show that the latter is actually true?

We've played Citeh 3 times this year, twice in quick succession and recently. We setup the same way against City in both games in the league, though it could be argued he slightly tweaked it in our first meeting in the FA cup where he pulled a surprise and started Tierney instead of Zin (we all know how that affects our shape). Besides that, it's been like for like in all 3 games with pretty much the same players and his signature shape.

However Citeh did not use the same shape against us in any of the 3 games we played them. If you don't believe me please read it on the web as its just a search button away.

The closest Pep came to keeping his signature shape was in the first game, that was the only game he started and played his preferred 3 at the back. Funnily that was the only game on paper we stayed competitive (1-0 ), despite fielding a weakened side

Now, here are some links to show you how Pep specifically altered his shape to face us in the subsequent 2 games.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2023/feb/15/pep-guardiola-i-had-to-ditch-horrible-tactics-to-beat-arsenal

https://www.sportbible.com/football/pep-guardiola-man-city-arsenal-tactics-fan-reaction-763048-20230426

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12867335/manuel-akanji-at-left-back-pep-guardiolas-masterstroke-against-arsenal-turns-the-title-race-man-citys-way

If you still don't believe he altered his team to face us, just look at the sides he played immediately after 2 league games (Forest and Fulham), he immediately reverts to type (and the usual personnel) plays his favoured 3-2-4-1 ( or 3-2-5 if you prefer).

Logically anyone would think its the guy with the second best squad (according to you anyway) that would be adapting to play the head honcho, but the overwhelming evidence shows its been the other way round.

And in case you are wondering why Arteta behaves this way, it seems he's of the same school of thought as you, as he clearly doesn't believe that changing tactics within a game does much, he prefers to put the onus on the players. I can't find it now, but there is a direct quote where he says he knew Citeh was going to try something different but he didn't see the need to change things around or respond as he just has to "trust in the players". A pathetic kop out IMO.

I'll edit my post once I find the quote

So in short, no, I don't believe the two managers are the same (or similar) and would achieve the same results if switched around. If I am being honest, it could go either way for anyone of them.....but if you've seen my post history, you'll know I prefer managers who aren't rigid and immediately respond to changes within a match. My preference.

No I just happen to disagree that PSG have anywhere near the strongest team in Europe, the two teams I’ve mentioned Man City and Bayern Munich are far stronger. A team is also far more about balance and they have a better balance team when Unai coached them…now they’ve sacrificed that to have Neymar and Messi up front.

Yes City changed it up when they played us, but again that’s far more about their ability to rotate given the depth in their squad.

That’s not the reason they beat us. The reason they beat us is that for all our strengths we don’t deal well with intense pressing, even Partey who is lauded for his ability to play through the press can’t deal with it from players of the quality of City. Until we sufficiently improve our central midfield to combat this, all the tactical cleverness you think makes every bit of difference in games…won’t make a sod of difference.

I don’t disagree that being flexible is preferable to being inflexible, but where we differ is on the margin of difference it makes when you have the strongest squad in Europe (by a mile, it’s not even close).

I think you seem to be getting the impression that im defending Arteta, im not…I can’t stand the guy….no personality, totally unlikable…all the warmth of a corpse and yes galaxy brained and too sure of his own genius and plays favourites too often.

I think he’s been incredibly lucky to have players like Saka, Odegaard, Martinelli all come good at the same time. Whilst we can say Odegaard is his signing…I don’t really credit him with their development. I think they came good inspite of him because they are naturally talented players.


Having a good coach if you’re a mega wealthy team gives you the advantage because unlike with Chelsea of late you won’t spend hundreds of millions on players not up to snuff, Guardiola obviously knows the difference between a good player and a shit one….and he’s built a team with balance and quality. But you simply cannot produce that quality if the tools at your disposal are limited.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

No I just happen to disagree that PSG have anywhere near the strongest team in Europe, the two teams I’ve mentioned Man City and Bayern Munich are far stronger. A team is also far more about balance and they have a better balance team when Unai coached them…now they’ve sacrificed that to have Neymar and Messi up front.

Yes City changed it up when they played us, but again that’s far more about their ability to rotate given the depth in their squad.

That’s not the reason they beat us. The reason they beat us is that for all our strengths we don’t deal well with intense pressing, even Partey who is lauded for his ability to play through the press can’t deal with it from players of the quality of City. Until we sufficiently improve our central midfield to combat this, all the tactical cleverness you think makes every bit of difference in games…won’t make a sod of difference.

I don’t disagree that being flexible is preferable to being inflexible, but where we differ is on the margin of difference it makes when you have the strongest squad in Europe (by a mile, it’s not even close).

I think you seem to be getting the impression that im defending Arteta, im not…I can’t stand the guy….no personality, totally unlikable…all the warmth of a corpse and yes galaxy brained and too sure of his own genius and plays favourites too often.

I think he’s been incredibly lucky to have players like Saka, Odegaard, Martinelli all come good at the same time. Whilst we can say Odegaard is his signing…I don’t really credit him with their development. I think they came good inspite of him because they are naturally talented players.


Having a good coach if you’re a mega wealthy team gives you the advantage because unlike with Chelsea of late you won’t spend hundreds of millions on players not up to snuff, Guardiola obviously knows the difference between a good player and a shit one….and he’s built a team with balance and quality. But you simply cannot produce that quality if the tools at your disposal are limited.

Fair enough. Not much I can debate with here as its clear we see things differently, which means we could probably be seeing the same thing but insisting its a certain way (eg. is the glass half full or half empty).

A bit like what I posted earlier on how to view the season, a success or failure. I think whatever helps you to healthily deal with whatever challenge you have (Citeh's dominance in this case) is probably the best way to go.

Lets see what we do against Newcastle, seeing as the Citeh have already wrapped it up against Leeds in the 1st half as usual.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fair enough. Not much I can debate with here as its clear we see things differently, which means we could probably be seeing the same thing but insisting its a certain way (eg. is the glass half full or half empty).

A bit like what I posted earlier on how to view the season, a success or failure. I think whatever helps you to healthily deal with whatever challenge you have (Citeh's dominance in this case) is probably the best way to go.

Lets see what we do against Newcastle, seeing as the Citeh have already wrapped it up against Leeds in the 1st half as usual.

Yep equally I don’t see this impasse being broken