Women's World Cup

[Letters]

:tumbleweed:

I hope we win. I suppose.

[Mac76]

Good Kiwi win over Norway

[HCZ_Reborn]

:tumbleweed:

I hope we win. I suppose.


I could be content in not caring about women’s football and leaving it at that. But it won’t upset the usual suspects if I don’t. I am curious at how the level of lesbianism in the sport relative to society is exponentially higher (and that’s without factoring in countries like Zambia, Nigeria and China where you simply can’t be open about your sexuality). Of course it’s not just football, it’s other sports like Hockey as well so probably less about women taking on more masculine roles.

No where near as high in Tennis, so could be a difference between individual and team sports

[Letters]

Well. I didn't think this thread was going to go in that direction :lol:

I care up to a point. And that point is "I hope England win". And I'd go so far to say I'll probably watch England in the later stages if we get there. But I don't really care. And I find it tiresome how it's increasingly wrongthink if you don't care about it as much as the men's game and believe them to be equivalent.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well. I didn't think this thread was going to go in that direction :lol:

I care up to a point. And that point is "I hope England win". And I'd go so far to say I'll probably watch England in the later stages if we get there. But I don't really care. And I find it tiresome how it's increasingly wrongthink if you don't care about it as much as the men's game and believe them to be equivalent.


Ultimately other people’s attitudes don’t bother me, I just like getting a reaction out of them. My attitude is clearly the women’s game has evolved from where it was twenty years ago. And in that England-Germany final a year ago or whenever it was, obviously wanted England to win but at 39 I’m not interested in watching new sports. And in my mind womens football feels like one day cricket or 20/20…just an inferior form of the game

[GP]

It's come on a fair bit but the standards are still really low. Goalkeeping is particularly poor. Not sure why.
I just don't care about it much, really.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It's come on a fair bit but the standards are still really low. Goalkeeping is particularly poor. Not sure why.
I just don't care about it much, really.

If I had to guess, apparently there is not just a difference in strength and speed on average between men and women but hand-eye coordination as well…which might well account for poor goalkeeping unless the issue is that they aren’t good at ball to feet (don’t watch so don’t know)

[Letters]

I actually think the standard is pretty good, and the interest level has certainly increased a lot since the Euros, the women's NLD got a very big attendance at The Emirates.
But yeah, I don't really care that much. I'll be pleased if we win of course.

[Mac76]

Internationally the women's game is probably getting towards Championship level or certainly League 1

I actually quite lile watching it, there's less cheating, it's a little slower so can be easier to follow and there are sometimes good skills on show and some good goals.

Not that I'll be watching it much because of timings but hope the Lionesses do well

[WMUG]

https://youtu.be/jewBN4XDqjA?t=215

:yikes:

[Mac76]

https://youtu.be/jewBN4XDqjA?t=215

:yikes:

not sure what your point is but that was a horrendous foul for the sending off - btw i didn't know they had the refs directly announcing their decision to the crowd - i wonder if that might improve things if the ref had to actually say in front of 60,000 fans that they'd denied us yet another blindingly obvious pel ?

[Letters]

https://youtu.be/jewBN4XDqjA?t=215

:yikes:

Ooft! :sick:

Interesting the refs are miked up. I approve.

[Letters]

Not that I'll be watching it much because of timings but hope the Lionesses do well

Aye. Timings a big issue with this WC for us in Europe.

[WMUG]

not sure what your point is but that was a horrendous foul for the sending off - btw i didn't know they had the refs directly announcing their decision to the crowd - i wonder if that might improve things if the ref had to actually say in front of 60,000 fans that they'd denied us yet another blindingly obvious pel ?

That was my point :lol:

I'm not sure about the announcements, honestly. Might help to have the refs mic'd up like in rugby so we can hear them talking the decision over with the VAR but I'm not sure what this achieves, other than maybe accessibility (blind/visually impaired fans).

[Mac76]

That was my point :lol:

I'm not sure about the announcements, honestly. Might help to have the refs mic'd up like in rugby so we can hear them talking the decision over with the VAR but I'm not sure what this achieves, other than maybe accessibility (blind/visually impaired fans).

Well the rugby thing only works for people watching on TV whereas the announcements are for people at the game too

[WMUG]

Well the rugby thing only works for people watching on TV whereas the announcements are for people at the game too

I think at rugby you can buy a set of headphones that gives you access to the ref's mic, though I don't know how widespread that is.

Honestly even if it's just for TV, it would help to know what the decision making process is.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

USA beat Vietnam.

Took a few years but they finally got it done.

[The Wengerbabies]

If it's not pole vaulting I have no interest in women's sport

[Mac76]

USA beat Vietnam.

Took a few years but they finally got it done.

:lol:

[Letters]

USA beat Vietnam.

Took a few years but they finally got it done.

:haha:

England 1-0 at HT vs Haiti. Pel. Had to be retaken after the first one was saved but the ‘keeper was off her lane.

[HCZ_Reborn]

USA beat Vietnam.

Took a few years but they finally got it done.


https://youtu.be/S06nIz4scvI

[Letters]

1-0 FT. Watched the 2nd half. Pretty poor quality.

[Mac76]

If we can only scrape past Haiti that doesn't sound good - unless Haiti are some kind of mega-force in womens' football?

[Letters]

I don’t think they are. But teams can play their way in to tournaments.
We’ll get out of the group, after that who knows.

Add joke about a “semi” here.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t think they are. But teams can play their way in to tournaments.
We’ll get out of the group, after that who knows.

Add joke about a “semi” here.


If you go by the men’s tournament (which probably shouldn’t) rarely is the side that starts the strongest the side that wins. Germany beating Portugal 4-0 in Brazil and France beating South Africa was the last time I remember an eventual World Cup winner starting with a real hammering.

Argentina and Spain lost their opening game before they won the tournament. France in 2018, Brazil in 2002 and Italy in 2006 all recorded rather modest opening wins.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think England will win either, no idea who…other than potentially defaulting to the USA

[Letters]

USA does seem likely.
I thought we had a decent chance but I heard that some of the ladies who won the Euros have since retired so maybe not.

[Mac76]

USA does seem likely.
I thought we had a decent chance but I heard that some of the ladies who won the Euros have since retired so maybe not.

retired or with bad injuries

[HCZ_Reborn]

USA does seem likely.
I thought we had a decent chance but I heard that some of the ladies who won the Euros have since retired so maybe not.

Friend of mine who is into the sport said something about the goalkeeper being one of the only players left from the starting XI at the Euros.

She knows the names of the Arsenal ladies players better than I do, even corrected me on the Pronounciation of Miedema (which sounds like a medical term for a brain injury)

[WMUG]

Katie McCabe straight from a corner! :lol:

[GP]

Katie McCabe straight from a corner! :lol:

https://streamin.me/v/8de37eff

Someone was saying something about women's goalkeeping...

[Mac76]

https://streamin.me/v/8de37eff

Someone was saying something about women's goalkeeping...

:lol: that's a real howler

[Letters]

A mate has opined that the goals should be smaller in the women's game. Not entirely sure I agree but while there are tall women, the average is clearly different.
That woman looks tiny in that goal, compare and contrast with people like Seaman who always looked massive and like it would be damn near impossible to score past.

[Mac76]

A mate has opined that the goals should be smaller in the women's game. Not entirely sure I agree but while there are tall women, the average is clearly different.
That woman looks tiny in that goal, compare and contrast with people like Seaman who always looked massive and like it would be damn near impossible to score past.

interesting point, hadn't thought of that - though i guess you could argue the current siuation means you're likely to get more goals

[WMUG]

A mate has opined that the goals should be smaller in the women's game. Not entirely sure I agree but while there are tall women, the average is clearly different.
That woman looks tiny in that goal, compare and contrast with people like Seaman who always looked massive and like it would be damn near impossible to score past.

That's something that gets bandied around every now and then and the arguments that always come up against it are:

a) Accessibility - at grassroots level you'd need two sets of goals or pitches with goals of different sizes which would take shitloads of time and money to implement, and at pro-level you'd need to keep switching the goals out which, for teams that share their grounds with lower-level clubs (us with Borehamwood, Spurs with Orient etc) that's an expense they could do without.

b) Men are much, much taller now on average than they were when the current goal size was standardised, and it obviously wasn't considered it a problem then or they'd have made them smaller. Sure, there's a difference between the men's game and the women's game in how big the keeper is compared to the goal, but does that really matter? The women's game is its own thing, it doesn't have to be defined in comparison to anything else.

[Letters]

You know, those are two very good arguments.
I think we probably should just accept that the women’s game is different to the men’s.
Which is pretty much what I’ve been saying all along anyway.

[The Wengerbabies]

You know, those are two very good arguments.
I think we probably should just accept that the women’s game is different to the men’s.
Which is pretty much what I’ve been saying all along anyway.

That's a pretty sexist thing to say.

[Mac76]

That's something that gets bandied around every now and then and the arguments that always come up against it are:

a) Accessibility - at grassroots level you'd need two sets of goals or pitches with goals of different sizes which would take shitloads of time and money to implement, and at pro-level you'd need to keep switching the goals out which, for teams that share their grounds with lower-level clubs (us with Borehamwood, Spurs with Orient etc) that's an expense they could do without.

b) Men are much, much taller now on average than they were when the current goal size was standardised, and it obviously wasn't considered it a problem then or they'd have made them smaller. Sure, there's a difference between the men's game and the women's game in how big the keeper is compared to the goal, but does that really matter? The women's game is its own thing, it doesn't have to be defined in comparison to anything else.

yeah i thought about the practical issues of switching goalposts too and as you say they don't have to be exactly comparable

[HCZ_Reborn]

Saw a clip of Nigerian equaliser against Australia. Jesus people aren’t kidding when they say the goalkeepers are rubbish are they

[HCZ_Reborn]

:haha:

Literally….anyone who says women should be on equivalent wages to men should be shown the “highlights” of the Aussie keeper

[Letters]

:haha:

Literally….anyone who says women should be on equivalent wages to men should be shown the “highlights” of the Aussie keeper

Yes. Embarrassing.

But you know what. I don't care how shit they are. The players in the men's game get the big bucks because of the insane amount of money which goes into the game, not because they're so much better than previous generations - mostly they're not.

When the women's game is getting multi-billion pound TV deals, huge sponsorship deals and getting 60,000 people paying £50-100 to watch, plus all the corporate stuff, then I don't care how crap they are, the women can get paid the big bucks too. But none of that is happening.

[Letters]

England's second game today against...dunno, someone :shrug:


:tumbleweed:

[Letters]

Oh, it's Denmark apparently and we're 1-0 up :partytime:

[Letters]

1-0 HT. Pretty good goal tbf, although I think a male better 'keeper would have saved it.
It wasn't as much in the corner as I thought on first viewing.

[HCZ_Reborn]

1-0 HT. Pretty good goal tbf, although I think a male better 'keeper would have saved it.
It wasn't as much in the corner as I thought on first viewing.

I’d say it was a height issue. Which most female goalkeepers unless they have some kind of pituitary gland defect will encounter. Didn’t have the arm length reach to stretch and save it

[Letters]

England just brought a player called England on :unsure:

[Letters]

Denmark hit the post! Good header. Got away with that

[Letters]

1-0 FT :patrice:

[Niall_Quinn]

Haven't watched any of it. Which teams should I be watching for the best tits?

[Niall_Quinn]

:haha:

Literally….anyone who says women should be on equivalent wages to men should be shown the “highlights” of the Aussie keeper

Absolutely. Give them equal pay. The sooner this farce bankrupts itself the better.

[IBK]

England's second game today against...dunno, someone :shrug:


:tumbleweed:

:lol:

[Letters]

We're playing again today. I think I do know the answer this time, pretty sure it's China.

[IBK]

Only 4 days to the Community Shield :lol:

[Letters]

England 1-0 up vs China :partytime:

[Letters]

2-0.

[Letters]

3-1 now.

[Letters]

6-1 :lol:


*taps mic, is this thing on?*

:tumbleweed:

[Mac76]

:lol:

I see a lady named Lauren James got two goals and three assists in that match - decent day's work

[WMUG]

Jamaica through, Brazil out!

[Letters]

Jamaica through, Brazil out!

No, she wanted to go :unsure:

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/66381691

:lol:

[Mac76]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/66381691

:lol:

sorry, the commentator is blaming Orsi but they should be looking at the keeper IMO, a keeper needs to be ready to get the ball under all circumstances when it's near their own goal and her attempt to collect it was really lame

[Letters]

It was a bit of a heavy back-pass but I agree that the 'keeper was slow.

[HCZ_Reborn]

USA are out. Beaten 5-4 on pels

[Letters]

It’s coming home tbh

[HCZ_Reborn]

England going to Pels

See if the women are any better than the men at them :haha:

[dazthegooner]

Well so far both teams are shite 1 miss each.
Seems they're worse than us :yikes:

And we're though :good:

[HCZ_Reborn]

England win 4-2 on pels. Bit of a let off. Reece James’ sister will be breathing a sigh of relief

[HCZ_Reborn]

As much as not interested in the ladies game, I do love me a pelanty shootout (well if Arsenal or England aren’t involved, though was strangely zen about yesterdays shoot out was mainly relieved that we’d tied the game)

One of the best things in football in my view, just for the sheer drama.

[Letters]

Nigeria have a player called Kanu :d

And agreed about penalities. Love them. Less so if Arsenal or England are involved although i too was more relaxed yesterday. I guess because of the occasion.

[Letters]

It’s coming home tbh

:gp:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Bit of drama with pels. Australia win 7-6 but that doesn’t do it justice. Aussies missed three penalties and France missed four. One penalty France missed was re-taken due to VAR only for it to be saved

[Letters]

1-0 to Colombia. More hilariously inept goalkeeping.

[Letters]

1-1 :haha:

Holy shit, their ‘keeper is worse than ours.

[GP]

Told you.

Terribly goalkeeping is a feature of the women's game.

[Letters]

Not as bad as your terribly English :p
And I don’t think that’s ever been in dispute, it’s always been the weak spot of the women’s game.

[GP]

Arsenal legend Russo gives England the lead.

[Letters]

2-1 FT. Not great quality by either side.

[Letters]

2-1 to England. First two goals excellent. The last one was hilariously inept defence

EDIT: So far. 75 minutes in

[HCZ_Reborn]

3-1 to England wimmin now.

Not seen any of the goals. But instinctively dislike the antepodeans when it comes to sport

[HCZ_Reborn]

Actually not true, I quite like the kiwi cricket team and at their best the All blacks are the RU equivalent of Barcelona

[WMUG]

It's coming home :partytime:

[WMUG]

It's coming home :party:

:lol:

[Letters]

It is.
Good game. Excellent third from Russo of England and Arsenal to seal it.

Aussies :pal:

[WMUG]

Annoyingly I'll be playing at the same time as them so won't be able to watch it :lol:

Apparently the Spanish manager's a bit of a wrong'un as well, so that adds to it.

[Letters]

Obviously you mean you’ll be at church :angry:
As will I.
Might persuade the powers that be to put it on the TV to watch the second half.

[WMUG]

Can't you just watch the first half at a Synagogue on Saturday?

[Letters]

Well…it’s on Sunday. So no.
Isn’t it?

[WMUG]

Well…it’s on Sunday. So no.
Isn’t it?

It was an Old Testament joke.

Not a very good one, admittedly.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Obviously you mean you’ll be at church :angry:
As will I.
Might persuade the powers that be to put it on the TV to watch the second half.

Trying to think the last time I stepped into a Church. I’m going to say it was Sherborne Abbey about six years ago. Was looking around with some girl I was porking who lived there (in Sherborne not the Abbey)

[Marc Overmars]

Apparently The FA are going to consider Sarina Wiegman for the mens job if Southgate leaves as expected after Euro 2024.

Struggle to see that ending in anything other than horrific failure but it would be quite intriguing to watch it play out.

[Niall_Quinn]

LOL - is this still happening?

I suppose we just ride it out until the fad goes bankrupt.

I was reading about the purple haired yank bitch. She certainly showed the true intention behind this "sport", although I don't rope any of the genuine sports"people" into her realm. Good luck to the girls who are there for the competition, but let's not pretend any of it is in any way significant. The balance sheets will tell the story. Just as they do in Hollywood and in Bud's boardroom.

[Mac76]

Absorbing first half, Spain definitely the better side and could be 3-0 up, although England did hit the bar early on

England need to be more patient and try to keep possession for longer, they're just booting it upfield at the moment

[HCZ_Reborn]

Just watched last few minutes, England can barely put a pass together, Spain pressing them all over the pitch.

[Mac76]

1-0 Spain FT, they were the much better team, England resorted to trying to kick them out of the game but the ref was having none of it

[Globalgunner]

Guess the lady wont be taking over the England Men's job then....or maybe she still will?

[Globalgunner]

1-0 Spain FT, they were the much better team, England resorted to trying to kick them out of the game but the ref was having none of it

14 mins extra time? How did that happen. ?

[Mac76]

14 mins extra time? How did that happen. ?

One of our players was down for a few minutea with a blow to the head, also a lot of the Spanish players were down at various times after we kicked them about

[Globalgunner]

One of our players was down for a few minutea with a blow to the head, also a lot of the Spanish players were down at various times after we kicked them about

Tx. I saw it on the BBC web ticker and was wondering WTF?

[Letters]

1-0 Spain FT, they were the much better team, England resorted to trying to kick them out of the game but the ref was having none of it
I actually didn’t think there was that much in it but Spain definitely deserved it.
I was disappointed that after the penalty save it didn’t seem to galvanise us. We didn’t make a meaningful chance after that. Disappointing. Our ‘keeper was excellent and kept us in it but we didn’t do enough up front. Ah well. Good tournament overall for us.

[Mac76]

Spain looked much more comfortable on the ball and ought to have won more comfortably, their (deserved) pel was badly taken and they miased one or two other very good chances

Taking Russo off was a mistake I think, she was one of the people most likely to score for England

[Niall_Quinn]

14 mins extra time? How did that happen. ?

Seriously? You have to ask? It's women, init? They tell you they are in a rush and 2 days later they are ready to go and hurrying you along.

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66581263

Political correctness gone mad, I tells you. Now you're not even allowed to kiss the players hard on the lips :sulk:

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66581263

Political correctness gone mad, I tells you. Now you're not even allowed to kiss the players hard on the lips :sulk:

To be fair the way it’s been gone about, you’d think he’d put his tongue in her mouth and goosed her

It’s a bit over the top what he does, and if she said she didn’t like it he should apologise and not do it again, but after that it’s kind of case closed surely?

[Niall_Quinn]

To be fair the way it’s been gone about, you’d think he’d put his tongue in her mouth and goosed her

Is that happening?

I might watch.

[Niall_Quinn]

Any fucking, or at least flashing?

Tell me there's something worth watching?

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/28508/12950286/jorge-vilda-sacked-by-spain-women-controversial-coach-leaves-post-amid-rfef-president-luis-rubiales-fallout-reports-reuters


This has become utterly ridiculous

[Mac76]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/28508/12950286/jorge-vilda-sacked-by-spain-women-controversial-coach-leaves-post-amid-rfef-president-luis-rubiales-fallout-reports-reuters


This has become utterly ridiculous

it's a start but it's Rubiales who needs sacking

[HCZ_Reborn]

it's a start but it's Rubiales who needs sacking


Why though? Actually I know why because the media furore over the whole situation has made his position untenable. What I like is that the only person who has taken a moderate stance on this is Jenni Hermoso herself. She isn’t the one that’s formed the Lynch mob, she simply said she didn’t like it (principally because it seems like her preference is for women, but irregardless it’s not something you want unsolicited from someone you’re not in a relationship with). He was stupid, he got caught up in the moment, he was wrong, he apologised….im really not seeing much else needs to happen.
Sacking Jorge Vilda because of the perception that he applauded the kiss, is monstrous and I hope he takes the Spanish FA to arbitration over it.

This is what is meant by cancel culture by those who play ignorant to it, an instance where the consequences of poor behaviour is far more egregious than the behaviour itself.

[Mac76]

Why though? Actually I know why because the media furore over the whole situation has made his position untenable.

The furore is because he committed a sexual assault


Why though? Actually I know why because the media furore over the whole situation has made his position untenable. What I like is that the only person who has taken a moderate stance on this is Jenni Hermoso herself. She isn’t the one that’s formed the Lynch mob, she simply said she didn’t like it (principally because it seems like her preference is for women, but irregardless it’s not something you want unsolicited from someone you’re not in a relationship with)

it's enough for her to say she didn't like it - tihs isn't some guy off the street it's the president of the football association, with all the money and status comes a high level of responsibility to lead by example


This is what is meant by cancel culture by those who play ignorant to it, an instance where the consequences of poor behaviour is far more egregious than the behaviour itself.

'Cancel culture' is just bullshit made up by the right for no other reason than they actually agree, or at the very least want to turn a blind eye to, societal wrongs like misogyny, sexism, etc etc

no-one pays any attention unless firm examples are made of people who transgreess things like a women's right to her personal space - again, to finish where i started, it was a sexual assualt in public and therefore given his position he must be sacked

[Letters]

The furore is because he committed a sexual assault
Did he, though?
He hardly tore her clothes off or groped her in naughty places. He wasn't aggressive, he didn't shove his tongue down her throat.
I'm not saying that what he did was OK. He got caught up in the moment, he shouldn't have done it...the end.
The level of furore about this is way out of proportion to what he actually did.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The furore is because he committed a sexual assault



it's enough for her to say she didn't like it - tihs isn't some guy off the street it's the president of the football association, with all the money and status comes a high level of responsibility to lead by example



'Cancel culture' is just bullshit made up by the right for no other reason than they actually agree, or at the very least want to turn a blind eye to, societal wrongs like misogyny, sexism, etc etc

no-one pays any attention unless firm examples are made of people who transgreess things like a women's right to her personal space - again, to finish where i started, it was a sexual assualt in public and therefore given his position he must be sacked


Yeah I thought you’d take that attitude to cancel culture you seem the type, too preoccupied with political tribalism to actually take an open view on something. You used the term mutually exclusive the other week (I’m fucked if I can remember what the context was) well the right wing making hay out of cancel culture and calling everything an example of it does not mean it doesn’t exist. Maybe tell that to a lot of academics especially in the US who have lost their livelihoods because the latest iteration of tarring and feathering, is a bunch of social media pissants contacting someone’s employer and demanding they be sacked for what it is in most instances an innocuous comment

Sexual Assault? Fuck off…he didn’t slip his tongue in her mouth….if he’d kissed her on the cheek no one would have said anything. Calling it sexual assault is a travesty which actually diminishes the seriousness of actual sexual assault. It was inappropriate behaviour, and I’ll bet my boots that Hermoso when reflecting back on this incident in years to come will conclude that the coverage of the incident (which has forced her and her family to go into hiding) is worse than the incident itself.

No this kind of attitude doesn’t bring about change in attitudes, it actually is more likely to cause pushback. Cunts like Andrew Tate didn’t emerge in a vaccum

[Marc Overmars]

The reaction is over the top but it was a pretty weird move from him. I can’t imagine a female president would have congratulated the men’s team by kissing a player on the lips.

It’s all a bit weird but I guess as a bloke I’m not going to pretend to understand how women feel about this kind of thing.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The reaction is over the top but it was a pretty weird move from him. I can’t imagine a female president would have congratulated the men’s team by kissing a player on the lips.

It’s all a bit weird but I guess as a bloke I’m not going to pretend to understand how women feel about this kind of thing.


I agree with what you’ve said, I think it was weird behaviour and he absolutely shouldn’t have done it. But it’s almost like you can accept that and think the reaction was over the top. And the reaction seems to have little to do with how Hermoso herself feels about it, and more about an outrage movement.

[Letters]

it's a start but it's Rubiales who needs sacking

It’s a start?
You’re not even talking about the person who did the bad thing.
It’s just someone who didn’t join the baying mob.
So now you can be sacked not for actually doing anything wrong yourself but not thinking the right thing about the person who did, or not expressing that feeling strongly enough.
You’re ok with that, are you?

[HCZ_Reborn]

It’s a start?
You’re not even talking about the person who did the bad thing.
It’s just someone who didn’t join the baying mob.
So now you can be sacked not for actually doing anything wrong yourself but not thinking the right thing about the person who did, or not expressing that feeling strongly enough.
You’re ok with that, are you?

And he thinks cancel culture is purely a right wing phantom

For right wing commentators is it the new “political correctness gone mad” yes of course, these people have always got something or someone to demonise.

But to say it doesn’t exist is counter factual. You can argue some people deserve it, but ultimately it’s not the rich and famous who fall afoul of it. It’s the ordinary bugger who might have unwisely said something on social media and then ends up losing his job and finding it difficult to get another job. I take it personally because it almost happened to me, and for something that I consider a perfectly legitimate point of view (no not me using the W word…even Im not bone headed enough to risk saying that in a more popularly visited forum than this).

However I don’t want to go off the deep end, because this is about behaviour and not words. And for the umpteenth time I do repeat that I don’t consider the behaviour ok, but neither do I think it was malign. You can argue that he deserves to go because once your reputation has been tarnished like that you can’t ever get it back, kissing Jenni Hermoso is all he will be remembered for.

I just think there needs to be a sense of proportion

[Mac76]

It’s a start?
You’re not even talking about the person who did the bad thing.
It’s just someone who didn’t join the baying mob.
So now you can be sacked not for actually doing anything wrong yourself but not thinking the right thing about the person who did, or not expressing that feeling strongly enough.
You’re ok with that, are you?

Sure, I was being a bit provocative perhaps, I don't care about the manager, he obviously did something right given they won the world cup, though on talent alone they were head and shoulders above England

[Mac76]

However I don’t want to go off the deep end, because this is about behaviour and not words. And for the umpteenth time I do repeat that I don’t consider the behaviour ok, but neither do I think it was malign. You can argue that he deserves to go because once your reputation has been tarnished like that you can’t ever get it back, kissing Jenni Hermoso is all he will be remembered for.

I just think there needs to be a sense of proportion

Well you've just explained how it's proportionate, he forced himself on a woman in public and that will follow him everywhere he goes - rightly IMO

So he needs to go

You can throw all the labels and stereotypes at me you like, that's an easy way to sidestep what's important here, which is that women should be allowed to go about their job without some dirty old man taking an opportinity to take things to far, thinking he can get away with it because of the occasion

I suspect what will happen is that in 6 months he'll 'decide to retire' with a fat payoff and nice pension, so everyone saves face

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well you've just explained how it's proportionate, he forced himself on a woman in public and that will follow him everywhere he goes - rightly IMO

So he needs to go

You can throw all the labels and stereotypes at me you like, that's an easy way to sidestep what's important here, which is that women should be allowed to go about their job without some dirty old man taking an opportinity to take things to far, thinking he can get away with it because of the occasion

I suspect what will happen is that in 6 months he'll 'decide to retire' with a fat payoff and nice pension, so everyone saves face


No I don’t think it’s proportionate, I just think it’s a sad reality of our times. I think using charged phrasing like “forcing himself on her” doesn't make the offence any more serious, it just serves to trivialise actual sexual assault. But to be honest apart from thinking the whole thing a circus anyway, that’s not what has got me animated

What has is the thing that I note you have curiously dodged and that is the sacking of Vilda. Anyone who supports this in my view has gone well beyond the confines of supporting women and just has the bloodlust.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh my apologies you did comment on it to say “I don’t care”

Redolent of the current liberal/lefty attitude, as long as I get my sense of righteous indignation rewarded I don’t care who the shards dice in the crossfire.

Then again the right are massive hypocrites on the issue, because they don’t care if the person targeted is seen as a political opponent.

Or some of the idiots on here who don’t like the fact that I came down hard on Mason Greenwood….

[WMUG]

Just to add some context, the manager has previously been at the centre of controversy, being accused of bullying to the point where 15 players refused to play for the national team until he left.

Quite how that intersects with the Rubiales thing I'm not sure, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Just to add some context, the manager has previously been at the centre of controversy, being accused of bullying to the point where 15 players refused to play for the national team until he left.

Quite how that intersects with the Rubiales thing I'm not sure, but I thought it was worth mentioning.


Unless by bullying you mean he was sending them unsolicited dick pics I’m not sure how it does, evidently they didn’t see the bullying as serious enough for him to be given the push

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ok so I’ve read a bit more about this whole debacle now

Rubiales is a Moron, I don’t know who is advising him in a public relations sense, but they need sacking…coming out and calling people “fake feminists” for wanting him gone, is the Trump school of diplomacy and in some quarters it may work but in women’s football after kissing someone on the lips…it’s pretty tone deaf. Still calling bullshit on it being sexual assault, but I think it’s the kind of thing you just don’t do.

Vilda looks like he’s been caught up in this storm because he’s about as popular with his own players as a bout of cystitis anyway, not just the ones who penned the letter to the FA but the current squad seems to have no confidence. Which I think is a bit ridiculous and political but if you’ve lost the dressing room what can you do?. I think lumping it in with him clapping at the press conference is pathetic, and if they’ve used that as an excuse because they wanted rid of him anyway that’s pretty underhand and like I say he’d be within his rights to take it to arbitration.


The whole thing seems to shone a spotlight on what is clearly a situation full of big egos, both in terms of the players, the coach and the administrators.

[Mac76]

Unless by bullying you mean he was sending them unsolicited dick pics I’m not sure how it does, evidently they didn’t see the bullying as serious enough for him to be given the push

Well the impression given during the WC was he was fairly unpopular with the players

[The Wengerbabies]

Women just can't help themselves can they, they always have to be the victim. Can't even celebrate winning the WC without somehow making it about how men=bad.

He kissed her in a moment of jubilation, men kiss other men all the time in the same situation yet you never here a man saying he's been homosexually assaulted.

Besides I've seen the woman in question, she's no looker she should be so lucky tbh.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Women just can't help themselves can they, they always have to be the victim. Can't even celebrate winning the WC without somehow making it about how men=bad.

He kissed her in a moment of jubilation, men kiss other men all the time in the same situation yet you never here a man saying he's been homosexually assaulted.

Besides I've seen the woman in question, she's no looker she should be so lucky tbh.


Ah from one extreme to the other


I don’t know if you’re trolling, or if you’re actually the kind of person to flash a woman and when she gets upset say “I don’t know why you’re complaining, better than anything you’re likely to get”

Do men lip kiss each other in celebration? Can’t say it’s something I’ve noticed

[Mac76]

Ah from one extreme to the other


I don’t know if you’re trolling, or if you’re actually the kind of person to flash a woman and when she gets upset say “I don’t know why you’re complaining, better than anything you’re likely to get”

Do men lip kiss each other in celebration? Can’t say it’s something I’ve noticed

you obviously don't go to the same bars as LDG... :ladynana: ;)

[HCZ_Reborn]

you obviously don't go to the same bars as LDG... :ladynana: ;)

I should certainly hope not, and not just because I don’t like the guy


Although it is mainly that

[Mac76]

Rubiales quits, about time too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66637879

Oh and for those on here who said the player wasn't that bothered: "Hermoso, 33, said the kiss after Spain beat England was not consensual and she filed a legal complaint last Tuesday."

[Letters]

Oh and for those on here who said the player wasn't that bothered
Who said that? I don't think anyone on here did. :shrug:
I think we all agree that he shouldn't have done it. But calling it "sexual assault", saying he "forced himself on her". This language isn't helpful.
There's a case for him to be sacked, although personally I think that's a bit of an over-reaction - he got caught up in the moment, he didn't grope her or worse.
The level of furore was been ridiculous, it's actually become "the story" and somewhat overshadowed the fact they actually won the World Cup.
Sacking the manager is ridiculous - although it sounds like he should have been sacked anyway for other reasons, they just used this as an excuse to boot him out the door.

[Mac76]

Who said that? I don't think anyone on here did. :shrug:

HCZ said it for one

in his post on p11 he says:

"What I like is that the only person who has taken a moderate stance on this is Jenni Hermoso herself."

:haha:

[IBK]

Who said that? I don't think anyone on here did. :shrug:
I think we all agree that he shouldn't have done it. But calling it "sexual assault", saying he "forced himself on her". This language isn't helpful.
There's a case for him to be sacked, although personally I think that's a bit of an over-reaction - he got caught up in the moment, he didn't grope her or worse.
The level of furore was been ridiculous, it's actually become "the story" and somewhat overshadowed the fact they actually won the World Cup.
Sacking the manager is ridiculous - although it sounds like he should have been sacked anyway for other reasons, they just used this as an excuse to boot him out the door.

Personally, this seems like a mountain out of a molehill for me - although I understand that it speaks to a bigger issue of mysogyny.

Rubiales' stupidity was doubling down. Had he made a full and sincere apology - 'I got caught up in the moment etc and I accept that my actions were inappropriate and unwanted' then I think he would probably still be in a job.

[HCZ_Reborn]

HCZ said it for one

in his post on p11 he says:

"What I like is that the only person who has taken a moderate stance on this is Jenni Hermoso herself."

:haha:


She had previously taken a moderate view in that she didn’t get involved in the fray just stated that she didn’t like it.

I suspect (although can’t prove) that she came under pressure to become more activist about it

Because ultimately these incidents are never solely about the person who has done something and the person they’ve done it too, they become a paradigm case for sexual assault (which this absolutely wasn’t) which is unfair both on the aggrieved and the person guilty of malfeasance.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Personally, this seems like a mountain out of a molehill for me - although I understand that it speaks to a bigger issue of mysogyny.

Rubiales' stupidity was doubling down. Had he made a full and sincere apology - 'I got caught up in the moment etc and I accept that my actions were inappropriate and unwanted' then I think he would probably still be in a job.



100% agree with this

I think the other factor is politics, there was clearly a long running issue between the players, the coach and the football association. But yes as I previously said Rubiales is a moron

[Letters]

"What I like is that the only person who has taken a moderate stance on this is Jenni Hermoso herself."
HCZ has covered this, but those two statements are not equivalent.

[Mac76]

She had previously taken a moderate view in that she didn’t get involved in the fray just stated that she didn’t like it.

I suspect (although can’t prove) that she came under pressure to become more activist about it

Because ultimately these incidents are never solely about the person who has done something and the person they’ve done it too, they become a paradigm case for sexual assault (which this absolutely wasn’t) which is unfair both on the aggrieved and the person guilty of malfeasance.

It's hardly moderate for the entire Spanish women's football team (including Hermoso) to refuse to play again while he is in post - which they announced not long after the incident.

And in any case she said shortly afterwards - see article below from, err, 24 August - that "‘I felt the victim of aggression, a sexist act’"

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/25/i-felt-the-victim-of-aggression-a-sexist-act-jenni-hermosos-statement-in-full

Give it up mate

[HCZ_Reborn]

It's hardly moderate for the entire Spanish women's football team (including Hermoso) to refuse to play again while he is in post - which they announced not long after the incident.

And in any case she said shortly afterwards - see article below from, err, 24 August - that "‘I felt the victim of aggression, a sexist act’"

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/25/i-felt-the-victim-of-aggression-a-sexist-act-jenni-hermosos-statement-in-full

Give it up mate


Give what up? The idea that I don’t think a sexual assault has taken place. Even in her own words she’s described it as sexist (misogynist) which given his follow up remarks probably isn’t that inaccurate. But it is a storm in a teacup and far more indicative of an ongoing feud between the players and the organisation than anything else.

And again I’ll say that most of what I’ve said on the subject regards the coach Jorge Vilda, who again appears to have been dragged into this row in order to justify what they wanted to do anyway. And I think that’s not on. You disagree, you seem to think that if something upsets your preconceived notions of right and wrong that it doesn’t matter who gets caught up in the whirlwind

I know you’ve used it as throwaway remark but also I’m not your mate just something to keep in mind :)

[Mac76]

Give what up? The idea that I don’t think a sexual assault has taken place. Even in her own words she’s described it as sexist (misogynist) which given his follow up remarks probably isn’t that inaccurate. But it is a storm in a teacup and far more indicative of an ongoing feud between the players and the organisation than anything else.

And again I’ll say that most of what I’ve said on the subject regards the coach Jorge Vilda, who again appears to have been dragged into this row in order to justify what they wanted to do anyway. And I think that’s not on. You disagree, you seem to think that if something upsets your preconceived notions of right and wrong that it doesn’t matter who gets caught up in the whirlwind

I know you’ve used it as throwaway remark but also I’m not your mate just something to keep in mind :)

You conveniently leave out the word 'aggression' and in general are exhibiting NQ-level denial

"I feel the need to denounce this as I feel that no one, in no work space, sporting or social, should be a victim to this time of unconsensual behaviour. I felt vulnerable and a victim of aggression, an impulsive act, sexist, out of place and without any type of consent from my part."

That's pretty strong in anyone's book and hardly sounds like someone who wasn't that bothered, as you desperately try to maintain just because you'd rather talk about cancel culture, rather than accept the harm the actions of people like Rubiales do and why it's important for people to call it out

PS don't worry i wasn't under any illusions on that :)

[HCZ_Reborn]

You conveniently leave out the word 'aggression' and in general are exhibiting NQ-level denial

"I feel the need to denounce this as I feel that no one, in no work space, sporting or social, should be a victim to this time of unconsensual behaviour. I felt vulnerable and a victim of aggression, an impulsive act, sexist, out of place and without any type of consent from my part."

That's pretty strong in anyone's book and hardly sounds like someone who wasn't that bothered, as you desperately try to maintain just because you'd rather talk about cancel culture, rather than accept the harm the actions of people like Rubiales do and why it's important for people to call it out

PS don't worry i wasn't under any illusions on that :)


And what I’m saying is these remarks come across as contrived and coached especially when words like harm are used. It’s the type of PR washed statement that you can recognise a mile away. As I said my mistaken impression was that she’d taken a low key approach to things, but evidently even if she was inclined to do so that could not have happened.

And it’s utterly disingenuous of you to again ignore the context of where I inserted cancel culture into the conversation, it was in respect of Jorge Vilda. On its own I don’t believe what Rubiales did was a sackable offence but the way he then doubled down in a press conference means I have no sympathy for him….I said this already. But even if he hadn’t made those remarks I feel he’d have been forced out partly for political reasons and partly because of this puritanical censorious mood going about where people who do stupid things need to be subject to the modern equivalent of charivardi.

Me in my simple naive innocence believe a punishment should be proportional to the offence. The offence I took to be an inappropriate action made in a moment of high drama and jubilation, rather than the sexual assault you wish to portray it as.

If he had a history of such behaviour? Fine gone, He’s made silly remarks since then? Fine gone. And I don’t think this spectacle in anyway serves to help women against actual abusers…and yes I’ve come across them in the work place and I’ve had to persuade female friends who have been assaulted to go to the police so I don’t exactly take the issue lightly

[Mac76]

Me in my simple naive innocence believe a punishment should be proportional to the offence. The offence I took to be an inappropriate action made in a moment of high drama and jubilation, rather than the sexual assault you wish to portray it as.


well it is naive to think an old fart like Rubiales wouldn't simply be grabbing the opportunity to snog a young women in the knowledge (or so he thought) that he could get away with it.

people like him have traded off that 'caught up in the moment' BS for years

and again, sacking him's completely proportionate given his position as the head of women's football in Spain and the example he needs to set

oh and by the way if you want to talk about pressure being put on Hermoso, she says the pressure was all from the other side: "I have to state that I have been under constant pressure to come out with some sort of statement that would justify the acts of Mr Luis Rubiales."

[Letters]

people like him have traded off that 'caught up in the moment' BS for years
Have they, though? When you hear accounts of women who have suffered at the hands of genuine predators, the acts are almost always in private or subtle. They're always telling the victim that it's a secret and or threatening them with consequences if they tell - or telling them they won't be believed because of the power or status imbalance between the victim and perpetrator.
This really wasn't like that. Although I do take the point about the example he should be setting, and his failure to immediately show contrition and decision to double down strengthened the case for his sacking.

[Mac76]

Have they, though? When you hear accounts of women who have suffered at the hands of genuine predators, the acts are almost always in private or subtle. They're always telling the victim that it's a secret and or threatening them with consequences if they tell - or telling them they won't be believed because of the power or status imbalance between the victim and perpetrator.
This really wasn't like that. Although I do take the point about the example he should be setting, and his failure to immediately show contrition and decision to double down strengthened the case for his sacking.

Sure, it's not usually in public, but even when they do it out of people's sight I wouldn't be surprised if they, as well as doing what you suggest, saying it was just in the heat of the moment

But yes, it really is all about the example it sets, if he doesn't get punished then it's basically a green light for any guy who wants to grab a girl and kiss her in public

[HCZ_Reborn]

well it is naive to think an old fart like Rubiales wouldn't simply be grabbing the opportunity to snog a young women in the knowledge (or so he thought) that he could get away with it.

people like him have traded off that 'caught up in the moment' BS for years

and again, sacking him's completely proportionate given his position as the head of women's football in Spain and the example he needs to set

oh and by the way if you want to talk about pressure being put on Hermoso, she says the pressure was all from the other side: "I have to state that I have been under constant pressure to come out with some sort of statement that would justify the acts of Mr Luis Rubiales."


How many people do you think were watching that match and the after award globally? The suggestion that it could have been premeditated makes absolutely no sense unless Rubiales has some kind of personality disorder that overrides any sense of good judgement. The whole point of unwanted sexual behaviour is that it tends to be surreptitious.


I’m going to call bollocks on that last statement, the amount of pressure from a media with the bit between its teeth meant that even if she had made a statement like that it would have made no difference. The baying mob wanted his head.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sure, it's not usually in public, but even when they do it out of people's sight I wouldn't be surprised if they, as well as doing what you suggest, saying it was just in the heat of the moment

But yes, it really is all about the example it sets, if he doesn't get punished then it's basically a green light for any guy who wants to grab a girl and kiss her in public


So I agree partially, where I don’t agree is what the punishment. Change the scenario and a drunken office party and a guy kisses a girl because he’s misread the signs and she immediately pulls away and tells him “don’t ever do that again”. The bloke apologises and immediately feels guilt, shame and all the rest.

She complains to HR and they consider it a disciplinary offence because it happened on their premises, should that be a sacking offence?

There’s never been any prior inappropriate behaviour, these two colleagues have previously been on good terms, both are single and he’s just misunderstood.

Because from what you’re saying, it seems to be that context doesn’t matter because the easiest thing to do is to assume the worst motivation

[Niall_Quinn]

OMG, WTF is this all about? What the hell are you all going on about? What a surprise that the "drama" in women's football has nothing to do with football. Pages of bullshit. It's hilarious. How pussy whipped do you need to be before you get a prize?

Women's football. A contradiction.

Besides, the men play women's football now, so why do we need the women? And are we talking actual women, or would that be a micro-aggression against all the other creatures with tits who don't identify as women, or the blokes who want to get pregnant?

Jeez, what a clown world.

[WMUG]

This is not the behaviour of a healthy person.

[Mac76]

This is not the behaviour of a healthy person.

I tend to agree

[Letters]

This is not the behaviour of a healthy person.

Pff. What are you losers doing at 3;09am?
Being sober?
Sleeping?

:sulk:

[Mac76]

Pff. What are you losers doing at 3;09am?
Being sober?
Sleeping?

:sulk:

funnily enough i found myself awake at 3am this morning and while I struggled to immediately get back to sleep, going on GW and ranting in lunatic fashion just didn't occur to me...

[HCZ_Reborn]

funnily enough i found myself awake at 3am this morning and while I struggled to immediately get back to sleep, going on GW and ranting in lunatic fashion just didn't occur to me...

I woke at 4 (I ascribe the fact that I’m not the only one doing so to the heat) I saw NQ’s comments. Frankly I was offended that he couldn’t trouble himself to write more than a sentence :lol: and went back to sleep.

[HCZ_Reborn]

This is not the behaviour of a healthy person.

Look around you, do you see a lot of psychologically healthy people writing here?

We are all (including myself) predisposed to argue ourselves into a corner over a need to be right. There’s a few of us that spend far too much time on here because argument is a form of sport. And I suspect on top of that we are inclined towards online disinhibition…especially me.

[The Wengerbabies]

It's hardly moderate for the entire Spanish women's football team (including Hermoso) to refuse to play again while he is in post - which they announced not long after the incident.



They should have called their bluff. Win-win they'd no longer have to waste money subsidising this nonsense.


well it is naive to think an old fart like Rubiales wouldn't simply be grabbing the opportunity to snog a young women in the knowledge (or so he thought) that he could get away with it.

"


Young woman
33

Pick one

She's a good 10 years past her sell by date tbh

Besides it wasn't a snog it was a peck.

[WMUG]

Yes, that's right :console:

[IBK]

How many people do you think were watching that match and the after award globally? The suggestion that it could have been premeditated makes absolutely no sense unless Rubiales has some kind of personality disorder that overrides any sense of good judgement. The whole point of unwanted sexual behaviour is that it tends to be surreptitious.


I’m going to call bollocks on that last statement, the amount of pressure from a media with the bit between its teeth meant that even if she had made a statement like that it would have made no difference. The baying mob wanted his head.

I tend to agree with your view that this whole thing was the result of public pressure. Like we have both said, it was Rubiales conduct afterwards that was the greater stupidity.

Not saying that Rubiales behaviour was warranted - just that the whole reaction that this was sexual assault seems a bit overblown. The overhype is demonstrated by the subsequent lynch mob that took Vilda's job...for the apparent offence of applauding the Rubiales, during a speech in which he refused to resign - ignoring the fact that Vilda's applause undoutedly had more to do with Rubiales' public support for him (he offered the under fire coach a pay rise). IMO this was simply a pretext for gettign rid of an unpopular manager.

I can actually imagine a scenario in which an overexcited individual kissed a male player - in which case I don't think there would have been any reaction at all...

IMHO this kind of over reaction does very little to assist the supposed cause - in this case mysogyny.

[Mac76]

I tend to agree with your view that this whole thing was the result of public pressure. Like we have both said, it was Rubiales conduct afterwards that was the greater stupidity.

Not saying that Rubiales behaviour was warranted - just that the whole reaction that this was sexual assault seems a bit overblown. The overhype is demonstrated by the subsequent lynch mob that took Vilda's job...for the apparent offence of applauding the Rubiales, during a speech in which he refused to resign - ignoring the fact that Vilda's applause undoutedly had more to do with Rubiales' public support for him (he offered the under fire coach a pay rise). IMO this was simply a pretext for gettign rid of an unpopular manager.

I can actually imagine a scenario in which an overexcited individual kissed a male player - in which case I don't think there would have been any reaction at all...

IMHO this kind of over reaction does very little to assist the supposed cause - in this case mysogyny.

I don't agree and tbh this is another example of people just not understanding the significance

anyway what's wrong with 'public pressure' forcing him to go? the pressure is justified IMO

Rubiales left everyone with two choices - leave him in place with a slap on the wrist and therefore green-light every guy who wants to force themselves on a girl in the name of 'being caught up in the moment' - or come down hard on it to show women are properly respected

The right choice has been made

[Letters]

You really need to stop using language like "force themselves on a girl".

[Mac76]

You really need to stop using language like "force themselves on a girl".

Do I? :shrug: it's a commonly-used phrase to describe that kind of behaviour and that's what he did - he forced himself onto her for the kiss

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't agree and tbh this is another example of people just not understanding the significance

anyway what's wrong with 'public pressure' forcing him to go? the pressure is justified IMO

Rubiales left everyone with two choices - leave him in place with a slap on the wrist and therefore green-light every guy who wants to force themselves on a girl in the name of 'being caught up in the moment' - or come down hard on it to show women are properly respected

The right choice has been made


I’m genuinely interested how far you would apply this belief, so if we assume your belief that Rubiales was motivated by sexual desire rather than overexuberance. If two people go on a date, and they hug goodnight at the end of the date and the guy kisses the woman who isn’t in to him at all and pulls away and says “don’t do that” and the guy immediately apologises and said he misread the signs…do you think he’s committed sexual assault. Does even going into to kiss someone now require explicit consent?

Because if it does you’ve essentially destroyed any sense of spontaneity in human romantic encounters. This is a completely different context of course because I don’t believe Rubiales had any sexual/romantic intent.

[Marc Overmars]

You really need to stop using language like "force themselves on a girl".

Playing devils advocate here but if someone held your wife and planted a kiss on her lips, what else would you call it if it’s not forced?

I’m in full agreement that the reaction has been a little bit disproportionate but I also feel like what he did was totally inappropriate and although it’s obviously at the lower end of the “abuse” scale, I guess it would still have to be considered abuse given the lack of consent.

Where he fucked up most was not immediately showing contrition, accepting he made a mistake and acknowledging why women were outraged.

[Mac76]

I’m genuinely interested how far you would apply this belief, so if we assume your belief that Rubiales was motivated by sexual desire rather than overexuberance. If two people go on a date, and they hug goodnight at the end of the date and the guy kisses the woman who isn’t in to him at all and pulls away and says “don’t do that” and the guy immediately apologises and said he misread the signs…do you think he’s committed sexual assault. Does even going into to kiss someone now require explicit consent?

Because if it does you’ve essentially destroyed any sense of spontaneity in human romantic encounters. This is a completely different context of course because I don’t believe Rubiales had any sexual/romantic intent.

Well that context is entirely different - that's two people in their own personal time who have been on a date so when they go on that date they both know there is a possibility of a physical encounter, but if as you say the guy pulls away immediately then that is fine

we are talking about a man working in his professional capacity, representing the whole of Spanish football on a world stage, taking the opportunity to kiss a young woman while guessing, correctly, she wouldn't pull away and make a scene

I don't buy the exuberance argument at all, he's too old and too experienced and in too senior a professional job to let his guard off like that, IMO it was someone trying to take advantage, we will have to disagree on that because neither of us can prove we're right

Ultimately he let himself down either way and the signal it sends is too great to be ignored

You keep ignoring my point about letting him off being a green-light for any guy who fancies a quick snog in any context when people are celebrating, as they could say "it was just like Rubiales, I just got carried away" and also the woman thinking she has to accept it because Rubiales got away with it

If, in order to prevent many such scenarios, it means having to come down hard on Rubiales then so be it

[The Wengerbabies]

Well that context is entirely different - that's two people in their own personal time who have been on a date so when they go on that date they both know there is a possibility of a physical encounter, but if as you say the guy pulls away immediately then that is fine

we are talking about a man working in his professional capacity, representing the whole of Spanish football on a world stage, taking the opportunity to kiss a young woman while guessing, correctly, she wouldn't pull away and make a scene

I don't buy the exuberance argument at all, he's too old and too experienced and in too senior a professional job to let his guard off like that, IMO it was someone trying to take advantage, we will have to disagree on that because neither of us can prove we're right

Ultimately he let himself down either way and the signal it sends is too great to be ignored

You keep ignoring my point about letting him off being a green-light for any guy who fancies a quick snog in any context when people are celebrating, as they could say "it was just like Rubiales, I just got carried away" and also the woman thinking she has to accept it because Rubiales got away with it

If, in order to prevent many such scenarios, it means having to come down hard on Rubiales then so be it

My God you are pathetic!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well that context is entirely different - that's two people in their own personal time who have been on a date so when they go on that date they both know there is a possibility of a physical encounter, but if as you say the guy pulls away immediately then that is fine

we are talking about a man working in his professional capacity, representing the whole of Spanish football on a world stage, taking the opportunity to kiss a young woman while guessing, correctly, she wouldn't pull away and make a scene

I don't buy the exuberance argument at all, he's too old and too experienced and in too senior a professional job to let his guard off like that, IMO it was someone trying to take advantage, we will have to disagree on that because neither of us can prove we're right

Ultimately he let himself down either way and the signal it sends is too great to be ignored

You keep ignoring my point about letting him off being a green-light for any guy who fancies a quick snog in any context when people are celebrating, as they could say "it was just like Rubiales, I just got carried away" and also the woman thinking she has to accept it because Rubiales got away with it

If, in order to prevent many such scenarios, it means having to come down hard on Rubiales then so be it


The exuberance argument is purely one of Occam’s razor, because the alternative explanation is that someone has conspired to act in a predatory way in front of potentially millions of people globally…you are essentially into the territory of psychopathy…the inability to feel shame.

The Rubiales incident has no features of anything that could at all be easily replicated for the reasons I give above, if a man kisses a woman in a predatory way it’s going to be be in a clandestine setting, most people even if they are willing to engage in such behaviour don’t have it within them to do it brazenly in front of countless people.

[Mac76]

The Rubiales incident has no features of anything that could at all be easily replicated for the reasons I give above, if a man kisses a woman in a predatory way it’s going to be be in a clandestine setting, most people even if they are willing to engage in such behaviour don’t have it within them to do it brazenly in front of countless people.

OK so now you're giving a 'snog in the office stationary cupboard/outside a work drinks' example, but whatever it still gives the woman firmer ground to tell the man he's wrong, knowing there is a high-profile incident of a man begin rightly forced to give up his job because of it, it affirms she is in the right not to accept such bahaviour

[HCZ_Reborn]

OK so now you're giving a 'snog in the office stationary cupboard/outside a work drinks' example, but whatever it still gives the woman firmer ground to tell the man he's wrong, knowing there is a high-profile incident of a man begin rightly forced to give up his job because of it, it affirms she is in the right not to accept such bahaviour

By assuming the worst about someone’s intentions in a completely unrelated incident?

I see

[IBK]

Playing devils advocate here but if someone held your wife and planted a kiss on her lips, what else would you call it if it’s not forced?

I’m in full agreement that the reaction has been a little bit disproportionate but I also feel like what he did was totally inappropriate and although it’s obviously at the lower end of the “abuse” scale, I guess it would still have to be considered abuse given the lack of consent.

Where he fucked up most was not immediately showing contrition, accepting he made a mistake and acknowledging why women were outraged.

Happens all the time - well it's a social norm to kiss someone eg in greeting, and I have known many female friends to have been brushed on the lips in this way, and have had this conversation with some of them. The consensus would undoubtedly be that most women take note of the intent, and unless a more hostile intent is felt, they do not regard it as sexual assault even if they may prefer not to have been kissed. While Rubiales admittedly did more than this - and I accept fully that this was unwanted - my issue is escalating this act to sexual assault. Intent is everything and while we will never know what Rubiales' intent was it is possible in theory that the kiss was over exuberance in the moment rather than anything darker.

I want to emphasise that Hermoso's feelings are of course valid, and I do not regard myself as mysogynistic. Also, my comments relate to the single act itself and not to Rubiales' past history - whatever this is. I do however worry about our societal tendency to escalate matters - which as I say can be unhelful to a justifiable cause. FWIW as an ethnic minority, I felt exactly the same about the furore surrounding Lady Susan Hussey's comments to Ngozi Fulani last year...but that's another debate.

We are on the same page regarding Rubiales' reaction though.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh yeah Rubiales is a tit and his reaction was completely unbecoming, therefore for that reason I don’t have any sympathy for him.

But equally what happened is a storm in a tea cup, though unlike that Wengerbabies Wally who seems just to be a garden variety troll I don’t dismiss Hermoso’s feelings. I think it was wholly inappropriate what happened and I’d be upset about it. Though I’m very mindful about this clamour for people to lose their livelihoods and not because they care about the victim but because as human beings we still have that unfortunate tendency to get catharsis from the public defenestration of others. That’s why even the most well meaning campaigns quickly form into Lynch mobs.
If someone can convince themselves that their lust for mob justice is righteous they will happily enter into a feeding frenzy.

But equally that has to be tempered against things I hear from women about how they are horrendously assaulted and they are deprived any kind of justice. It’s bad enough here with the conviction rate at 2% of all reported rapes/sexual assaults….it’s not even worth getting into how women are treated in other parts of the world

I just don’t think that’s solved by becoming a hammer and looking at everything like it’s a nail.

[HCZ_Reborn]

On the subject of Public Shaming, I advise anyone to read So you’ve been Publicly Shamed? By John Ronson. That really crystallises for me about how the zeal for punishing “transgressors” far overshadows any sense of justice.

[Mac76]

But equally what happened is a storm in a tea cupIt's this that you don't understand, a man forcing a woman into a kiss in front of millions of viewrs is highly significant, not a storm in a teacup

allow me to quote myself in terms of why it is important, namely that not taking firm action would be "a green-light for any guy who fancies a quick snog in any context when people are celebrating, as they could say "it was just like Rubiales, I just got carried away" and also the woman thinking she has to accept it because Rubiales got away with it"

[Letters]

Playing devils advocate here but if someone held your wife and planted a kiss on her lips, what else would you call it if it’s not forced?
Well, firstly I'd question his eyesight and sanity.
But, more seriously, it depends on exactly what they did and the context.

If they walked in the door, pinned her to the wall and stuck his tongue down her throat then I think that would come under the definition of forcing himself on her. If, in the context of a house party to watch England in the World Cup final, which we win, and presupposing MrsL cared about that enough to be joining in with the celebrations. In that context when people are celebrating with each other if he kissed her fairly briefly on the lips then...well yeah, I'd probably think that was a bit odd and not really on, but it's not the same as the first scenario is it?

And that's the problem I have with that language. That sort of language would be used for rape or serious sexual assault, it's not what happened here. Using the same language conflates the two. I'm not convinced I'd call it abuse. But it was certainly inappropriate behaviour. I don't know what "consent" is needed or given in the context of celebrations where people are behaving in a less inhibited manner than they would normally.


Where he fucked up most was not immediately showing contrition, accepting he made a mistake and acknowledging why women were outraged.
Well I certainly agree with that.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It's this that you don't understand, a man forcing a woman into a kiss in front of millions of viewrs is highly significant, not a storm in a teacup

allow me to quote myself in terms of why it is important, namely that not taking firm action would be "a green-light for any guy who fancies a quick snog in any context when people are celebrating, as they could say "it was just like Rubiales, I just got carried away" and also the woman thinking she has to accept it because Rubiales got away with it"


I don’t know how old you are, but clearly it’s impressive that you’ve got through life without being able to grasp that not agreeing with you is not a case of misunderstanding. You can explain it to me as many ways as you like, I don’t buy your argument.

Not only that but I’ve already explained why I don’t buy it. I haven’t said that Rubiales did nothing wrong, but I cannot see how in any possible sense that him issuing a public apology for a lapse of good judgement (which is what he should have done without the tone deaf defensive press conference) is going to have any effect on the predatory mindset. Primarly because this is such an extraordinary stand alone situation.

So rephrase it anyway you wish, it won’t make a blind bit of difference. For what it’s worth you’ve explained your position very clearly….and I reject it

[The Wengerbabies]

It's this that you don't understand, a man forcing a woman into a kiss in front of millions of viewrs is highly significant, not a storm in a teacup

allow me to quote myself in terms of why it is important, namely that not taking firm action would be "a green-light for any guy who fancies a quick snog in any context when people are celebrating, as they could say "it was just like Rubiales, I just got carried away" and also the woman thinking she has to accept it because Rubiales got away with it"

Have you ever touched a woman?

[Mac76]

I don’t know how old you are, but clearly it’s impressive that you’ve got through life without being able to grasp that not agreeing with you is not a case of misunderstanding. You can explain it to me as many ways as you like, I don’t buy your argument.

Not only that but I’ve already explained why I don’t buy it. I haven’t said that Rubiales did nothing wrong, but I cannot see how in any possible sense that him issuing a public apology for a lapse of good judgement (which is what he should have done without the tone deaf defensive press conference) is going to have any effect on the predatory mindset. Primarly because this is such an extraordinary stand alone situation.

So rephrase it anyway you wish, it won’t make a blind bit of difference. For what it’s worth you’ve explained your position very clearly….and I reject it

fair enough, I just think it was too blatant and too high-profile to let him carry on

and btw I'm in no way blind to how these things can in other circumstances get out of hand - there's a play called 'Oleanna' by Daivd Mamet which looks at exactly that, a college professer who puts his arm around a student when she's crying and ends up losing his job - I'm absolutely not in favour of that kind of thing, there has to be some kind of balance

[HCZ_Reborn]

fair enough, I just think it was too blatant and too high-profile to let him carry on

and btw I'm in no way blind to how these things can in other circumstances get out of hand - there's a play called 'Oleanna' by Daivd Mamet which looks at exactly that, a college professer who puts his arm around a student when she's crying and ends up losing his job - I'm absolutely not in favour of that kind of thing, there has to be some kind of balance


See for me whether something is high profile or not is in of itself not a relevant consideration. However it can be helpful in determining whether this was a one off act of idiocy or whether it forms a pattern of behaviour. Now I would expect that if it was a deliberate act, that this would not have been his debut. One simply because of the sheer size of the event and two when considering the pathology of those who prey on women, it’s not something one simply takes up as an activity in their forties…they’d have a history of dodgy behaviour. Something even if it wasn’t known about wouldn’t take a half decent journalist much to uncover, from arse grabbing to unsolicited dick pics to being stalkerish….yet nothing has emerged on Rubiales which is why I feel more inclined to believe that this wasn’t sexually motivated.

In some ways it’s kind of why I think the feminist demand for boys to be better socialised is whilst well meaning essentially pissing into the wind. Not only that but I think it makes the fundamental mistake of believing it’s supported by male peers. I think most offenders know full well that what they are doing is wrong, they just think their own need for gratification outweighs any consideration of right and wrong.

The idea that it’s about power is oversold as well, the idea that women need to be put back in their place. If that was the case you’d find that Middle Aged women more likely to be in high power positions would be targeted for sexual assault, but in the vast majority of cases the victim is young and therefore it is about sexual desire.

Of course there are cultural factors, the attitude towards women in countries like India is derived from it being a society where male children enjoy higher status than their female counterparts. The Ripper case showed how attitudes towards women in this country was pretty poor, yes some of the victims were sex workers but not all of them but it shouldn’t have made their killings any less heinous in any event.

And I do think there’s something to this rise of Neo-Misogyny embodied by scumbags like Andrew Tate, though I think there’s a lot of barking up the wrong tree with Incels and often a lot of violent offenders are wrongly linked with the incel movement (Jake Davidson for instance).

But I think the main problem is that we think we’ve settled the matter of nature vs nurture in favour of the latter and that we can create a society where no man would ever try to rape a woman and I think that’s selling a lie. As long as there are people there will be evil behaviour.

Anyway that’s my miniature thesis on the subject

[Mac76]

See for me whether something is high profile or not is in of itself not a relevant consideration

it's totally relevant because it can set a precedent

if a popular celebrity wears a particularly distinctive hat on TV, the next day the hat sells out online - it's cause and effect

[HCZ_Reborn]

it's totally relevant because it can set a precedent

if a popular celebrity wears a particularly distinctive hat on TV, the next day the hat sells out online - it's cause and effect

But as I’ve said it’s not a situation that immediately lends itself to replication, it’s not the same as playing grab arse in the stationery cupboard.

Though I have been out of touch with the regular office situation, maybe handing out medals is a monthly ceremony in many work places

[Mac76]

But as I’ve said it’s not a situation that immediately lends itself to replication, it’s not the same as playing grab arse in the stationery cupboard.


and i've tried to explain that it would still be relevant to that scenario because it's still someone at work forcing themself on a woman and feeling safer in doing so in the knowledge that someone went unpunished with doing it on international TV - or, as it stands, felling less confident in doing so because they have seen there can be consequences

[HCZ_Reborn]

and i've tried to explain that it would still be relevant to that scenario because it's still someone at work forcing themself on a woman and feeling safer in doing so in the knowledge that someone went unpunished with doing it on international TV - or, as it stands, felling less confident in doing so because they have seen there can be consequences

And as I’ve explained, I find that to be tenuous at best. I’ll explain why. Assuming that people decided that kissing a woman and claiming it was a momentary lapse…what possible scenario could make it akin to that situation. There would have to be a scenario equivalent to celebrating a major trophy win to make it even remotely plausible. “Our monthly sales figures were up and in the moment I lost my head”

I also note you’re using the same “forced himself on her” line, now I put to you a scenario in which two people went on a date and guy kisses a girl who pulls away and says she’s not interested. Now I originally asked if you said that was sexual assault and you said no. But surely using your logic any situation where a man kisses a woman or even embraces a woman without explicit consent counts as forcing himself on her?

Also not to labour the point but even supposing your wildly unfeasible scenario is right and that if Rubiales hadn’t been a tit, had apologised and kept his job would have led to an epidemic of men kissing women and saying “oh I just was caught up in the moment”. Realistically it’s really only something you could get away with once, and as I’ve already explained about sexual predators…once is never enough

[Mac76]

And as I’ve explained, I find that to be tenuous at best. I’ll explain why. Assuming that people decided that kissing a woman and claiming it was a momentary lapse…what possible scenario could make it akin to that situation. There would have to be a scenario equivalent to celebrating a major trophy win to make it even remotely plausible. “Our monthly sales figures were up and in the moment I lost my head”

I also note you’re using the same “forced himself on her” line, now I put to a scenario in which two people went on a date and guy kisses a girl who pulls away and says she’s not interested. Now I originally asked if you said that was sexual assault and you said no. But surely using your logic any situation where a man kisses a woman or even embraces a woman without explicit consent counts as forcing himself on her?

Also not to labour the point but even supposing your wildly unfeasible scenario is right and that if Rubiales hadn’t been a tit, had apologised and kept his job would have led to an epidemic of men kissing women and saying “oh I just was caught up in the moment”. Realistically it’s really only something you could get away with once, and as I’ve already explained about sexual predators…once is never enough

If you're saying what someone does publicly has no effect on others' behaviour, then you are at odds with the entire adverting industry, which spends millions on celebrities because they have countless studies which show that the public will copy their behaviour

no I'm not saying every man will use it to their advantage but some, perhaps subconsciously, would

[HCZ_Reborn]

If you're saying what someone does publicly has no effect on others' behaviour, then you are at odds with the entire adverting industry, which spends millions on celebrities because they have countless studies which show that the public will copy their behaviour

no I'm not saying every man will use it to their advantage but some, perhaps subconsciously, would


Maybe actually read what I’m saying. I’m saying the idea of anyone profiting from trying to repeat the behaviour and the excuse for it is incredibly slim…because it’s not something that can be plausibly emulated on a smaller scale. The conditions governing it are completely unique

[Mac76]

Maybe actually read what I’m saying. I’m saying the idea of anyone profiting from trying to repeat the behaviour and the excuse for it is incredibly slim…because it’s not something that can be plausibly emulated on a smaller scale. The conditions governing it are completely unique

you don't seem to be able to able to grasp it's the principle of the thing

The context can make a difference - e.g. your date example - but not in situations where a man grabs a colleague in the stationary cupboard - whether or not they are in public, the principle is the same - a work colleague acting inappropriately

either we are soft on such behaviour, therefoer perpetuating it, or we make clear it's not acceptable

anyway whatever, you clearly don't get it so i give up :shrug:

[HCZ_Reborn]

you don't seem to be able to able to grasp it's the principle of the thing

The context can make a difference - e.g. your date example - but not in situations where a man grabs a colleague in the stationary cupboard - whether or not they are in public, the principle is the same - a work colleague acting inappropriately

either we are soft on such behaviour, therefoer perpetuating it, or we make clear it's not acceptable

anyway whatever, you clearly don't get it so i give up :shrug:


But for you context is only important when it suits your narrative

And you ignore that the context of winning a World Cup and the jubilation that brings cannot simply be replicated in the work place. I think context is important because what happened bears no resemblance to a work place groping

And I disagree, if you just make examples out of people, it just leads to men thinking they are going to be treated unfairly and the minority of those men who are dick heads just head up this new misogyny movement I referred to. These things don’t arise in a vacuum, it’s usually a response to puritanical campaigns that pay no heed to context, that demand blood.

There’s no principle at stake with what I’ve said. If Rubiales had publicly apologised it wouldn’t have created the impression that men can get away with it. Because in the ordinary work place there’s simply going to be nothing that by comparison recreates the conditions under which Rubiales kissed Hermoso…so it has no function as a get out of jail card.

In fact the only thing at risk is for people like yourself getting that warm instant gratification from retribution

[HCZ_Reborn]

But yes we are at an impasse, i think I’ve been quite reasonable given your persistent in being a patronising arse. But even overlooking that, the matter is academic because Rubiales made his position untenable in my view with the press conference.

But maybe take into consideration that I’m not the only one disagreeing with you and it cuts across the spectrum of different users here. To assume we just don’t get it, is massively pompous.

[The Wengerbabies]

But for you context is only important when it suits your narrative

And you ignore that the context of winning a World Cup and the jubilation that brings cannot simply be replicated in the work place. I think context is important because what happened bears no resemblance to a work place groping


Unless he's questioning the jubilation as genuine because nobody gives a fuck about the women's WC, in which case I agree with him.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Unless he's questioning the jubilation as genuine because nobody gives a fuck about the women's WC, in which case I agree with him.

You’re as much use in this conversation as a hip replacement made from Lego

Maybe we should have a forum thread called the Kiddy’s table for people who can’t act like grownups

[Letters]

You’re as much use in this conversation as a hip replacement made from Lego
:haha:


Maybe we should have a forum thread called the Kiddy’s table for people who can’t act like grownups
No, you're a poo poo head :sulk:

[The Wengerbabies]

You’re as much use in this conversation as a hip replacement made from Lego

Maybe we should have a forum thread called the Kiddy’s table for people who can’t act like grownups

Almost half the thread has been a back and forth about this ridiculous nothing burger.

No one actually cares about the football.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Almost half the thread has been a back and forth about this ridiculous nothing burger.

No one actually cares about the football.


See I wouldn’t mind if you had anything sensible ever to contribute but you don’t do you.


Your attempts to be edgy are just painfully unfunny. You just sound like a 12 year old boy.

[The Wengerbabies]

There is nothing to contribute. The whole thing in nonsense.

I'm not trying to be edgy. I'm not sure why I still visit this dying site tbh, habit, nostalgia maybe been here since 2006 but it's increasingly apparent that the few that remain are low test NPCs happy in their merry little ignorant worlds believing what they are told to believe with no hope. The only intelligent poster here is someone who I used to consider a nut case, I managed to wake up realise he's the only one capable of critical thought and I do hope someday the rest of you will wake up.

[Mac76]

See I wouldn’t mind if you had anything sensible ever to contribute but you don’t do you.


Your attempts to be edgy are just painfully unfunny. You just sound like a 12 year old boy.

I completely agree with you... :faint:

[Mac76]

But yes we are at an impasse, i think I’ve been quite reasonable given your persistent in being a patronising arse..

Well i think your resorting to abuse shows which if us is looking at this more calmly ;)

Just a few things before i really do call it a day on this:

1. to me I think we are looking at this man differently - you are buying his story about being overcome with emotion, forgetting his role and responsibilities entirely and kissing the woman

I don't buy it, sorry, I think it was more cynical than that, or at the very least the act of someone who is out-of-step wiht what's acceptable and is setting a very unfortunate example. For the record I do think if his reaction afterwards had been different maybe there could have been a way through, but everything he did played into the perception that he's not fit to hold his job

2. You just can't see how something like this can feed into everyday society - you can't get past the fact that it was unique because it was a ceremony in front of millions of people and because other incidents aren't the same but actually there is a parallel, people take their cues from what they see 'important' people do in public. You only have to look at how antisocial and racist behaviour grew during the EU referendum - it became ok to be nasty to immigrants because of the Leave campaign's messaging and, crucially, the fact that it wasn't sanctioned in any way

3. lastly i get really bored of how some people can only see people in stereotypes, e.g. anyone who expresses a particular view on something is immediately put into the 'snowflake/lefty/liberal' box, making it easier to dismiss their views as being guided by some kind of rigid ideological standpoint. People on here get me very wrong and I think some of my views on things would genuinely surprise you tbh, but either way you should tackle an argument on its merits not dismiss it because you think it ticks a particular box

[The Wengerbabies]

Now this is something that's inappropriate


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-17P0KP-bc

She's pretty cute though.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well i think your resorting to abuse shows which if us is looking at this more calmly ;)

Just a few things before i really do call it a day on this:

1. to me I think we are looking at this man differently - you are buying his story about being overcome with emotion, forgetting his role and responsibilities entirely and kissing the woman

I don't buy it, sorry, I think it was more cynical than that, or at the very least the act of someone who is out-of-step wiht what's acceptable and is setting a very unfortunate example. For the record I do think if his reaction afterwards had been different maybe there could have been a way through, but everything he did played into the perception that he's not fit to hold his job

2. You just can't see how something like this can feed into everyday society - you can't get past the fact that it was unique because it was a ceremony in front of millions of people and because other incidents aren't the same but actually there is a parallel, people take their cues from what they see 'important' people do in public. You only have to look at how antisocial and racist behaviour grew during the EU referendum - it became ok to be nasty to immigrants because of the Leave campaign's messaging and, crucially, the fact that it wasn't sanctioned in any way

3. lastly i get really bored of how some people can only see people in stereotypes, e.g. anyone who expresses a particular view on something is immediately put into the 'snowflake/lefty/liberal' box, making it easier to dismiss their views as being guided by some kind of rigid ideological standpoint. People on here get me very wrong and I think some of my views on things would genuinely surprise you tbh, but either way you should tackle an argument on its merits not dismiss it because you think it ticks a particular box


No I’m not being insulting/abusive I’m pointing out that you’re being patronising. Because I don’t agree with you doesn’t come down to a lack of understanding. I’m well aware that certain things influence wider behaviours, our conversations give me the impression that I understand human nature better than you. Because I think your opinions on human nature are clouded by your more left leaning worldview (I would have said liberal…but I think so called liberals are anything but….it’s why I’ve divorced myself from the liberal left because of the closed mindedness, and the sense of certainty to the point where they are wilfully blind and deaf to what’s going on in their own grouping).

I’ve explained to you why I don’t think this incident could or would have inspired behaviour in others. I also think there’s a tendency to fall back on propter hoc, ergo hoc assumptions. It’s not that I can’t see or can’t comprehend it’s that I’m not convinced….invoking Brexit is comparing apples to bowling balls. And frankly as someone who voted Remain, I’ve found people who voted the same way as me far more intolerant than any leave voter….because they didn’t like their comfortable world view being challenged. I didn’t like it either, but I at least had the sense to actually consider “you know what I might be wrong, it might be worth considering how people who think differently from me feel”. But the misnomer Liberals won’t do that, refuse to be taken from their perch of smug certainty and ultimately become just as extreme and pious in their attitude as the people they call far right flag shaggers.

But ultimately it comes down to opinion. I find your opinion that Rubiales had poor motives absurd, I think if he’d behaved like this around women before we’d know about it and you sure as shit don’t make your debut at it then. You would build your way up to it….whether you’re a thief, a sex offender or a murderer…you don’t start out big…that’s not how people work on the whole

You think in terms of if we let him go unpunished other people will start doing it? As if somehow there are people waiting for the green light to become predatory. The post EU referendum racists weren’t first time racists nor first time thugs it’s just something that actually was being paid attention to when they referenced Brexit before being a racist cunt.

And please don’t waste my time trying to come back with some version of proving Godwin’s law because I understand far more about that era of history I suspect than you do as well.


But this is boring me now, so I’d prefer to accept the stalemate. I’m not going to convince you that Rubiales didn’t plan to behave the way he did and you’re not going to convince me that allowing him to apologise for his behaviour would create an epidemic of similar incidents….and maybe as I’ve explained above this is one of those times where you might profit from reflecting on why people might disagree with a view you hold beyond (they just don’t get it).

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66818691

:lol: