Arsenal vs Fulham, Emirates Stadium, 26.08.2023 KO 15:00

[HCZ_Reborn]

Toyed with the idea of predicting a draw, given my result predictions have been a bit off the mark and we have previously for dropping points at home to Fulham. 7 wins and 4 draws at the Emirates against them.

If they had Mitrovic available I’d have probably have backed them to get a point, but think will be a narrow 2-1 win (certainly cannot see us scoring more than two goals in a game currently)


Clean sheets are a rarity under Arteta at home, 28% of our games we’ve kept a clean sheet in under him in the league. Which is actually less than the 41% of clean sheets we’ve kept away from home since he’s been coach.

And it’s of course a lot less than the average 45% of clean sheets we kept under previous coaches at the Emirates.


We average over a goal a game conceded - 73 goals in 68 games. The percentage of league defeats has also increased from 12% (30 in 256) to 21% (14 in 68) under Arteta.


But of course people who want to believe he’s doing a good job, will choose to believe so no matter what I say

[Marc Overmars]

Would like to see a couple of changes but he’ll probably go for the weird line up we’ve seen thus far.

I’ll say 2-1 as well.

Jesus is back in training but more likely to be available for the United game.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Lineup I’d go for


Ramsdale, Kiwior, Gabriel, Saliba, Tomoyasu, Partey, Zinchenko, Havertz, Martinelli, Trossard, Saka


Don’t like Zinchenko but can’t do a worse job in midfield than Havertz. Would potentially consider Jorginho in there but think that’s too defensive for Fulham at home. Odegaard once again would drop, along with Rice and White.


Actually scratch that Tomoyasu is suspended, so again my better judgement put Partey at right back and Jorginho next to Zinchenko in midfield

[Mac76]

0-3 Jimenez hatter

[HCZ_Reborn]

0-3 Jimenez hatter

Didn’t he get brain damage the last time he scored against us

[Mac76]

Lineup I’d go for


Ramsdale, Kiwior, Gabriel, Saliba, Tomoyasu, Partey, Zinchenko, Havertz, Martinelli, Trossard, Saka


Don’t like Zinchenko but can’t do a worse job in midfield than Havertz. Would potentially consider Jorginho in there but think that’s too defensive for Fulham at home. Odegaard once again would drop, along with Rice and White.


Actually scratch that Tomoyasu is suspended, so again my better judgement put Partey at right back and Jorginho next to Zinchenko in midfield

your hatred of White, to the point where you'd rather play Partey at RB, is characteristically absurd - not only is he a reasonable defender he his lineup play with Saka and Odegaard is very important to us last season and tbh i think we've been less effective on that side without it so far this season

[Mac76]

The lineup should of course be:

Ram

White Saliba Gabriel Tierney

Partey

Odegaard Rice

Saka Trossard Martinelli

[HCZ_Reborn]

your hatred of White, to the point where you'd rather play Partey at RB, is characteristically absurd - not only is he a reasonable defender he his lineup play with Saka and Odegaard is very important to us last season and tbh i think we've been less effective on that side without it so far this season


I don’t hate White, I just can’t bare him playing full back anymore and since we don’t have viable full back options, it’s easier to just play three centre backs


I wouldn’t be playing partey at full back, I’d play three at the back and three in midfield

[Mac76]

But why play Zin and not Rice? whatever you think of Rice, he's at least not the disaster area that Zin is

[HCZ_Reborn]

The lineup should of course be:

Ram

White Saliba Gabriel Tierney

Partey

Odegaard Rice

Saka Trossard Martinelli


So essentially you don’t like the fact that we are not creating enough chances but you don’t want to do anything by way of addressing that. Rice and Partey shouldn’t be playing together in a home game against Fulham, and Rice shouldn’t be playing at all without Partey as he’s too limited so there’s no need to play him full stop.

Tierney is going to Spain, so if you can wish him into the lineup you can by that logic wish a 30 year old Nigel Winterburn into the lineup.

I’ll be fascinated to know if the training ground chef goes out there with him to San Sebastián


Odegaard? I love how you lambast Arteta for playing his favourites yet don’t think he should be dropped. He’s been horrible since the back end of last season. For a captain, he takes on responsibility about as well as Boris Johnson

[HCZ_Reborn]

But why play Zin and not Rice? whatever you think of Rice, he's at least not the disaster area that Zin is

Because Zinchenko is technically better than Rice, Zinchenko like Xhaka is an infuriating player but has the ability to be creative when not idling about. Rice is surplus to requirements in a game like this…Zinchenko as awful as he is more likely to get the game to open up. And the statistics bare out that Martinelli sees more of the ball when Zinchenko plays.

There’s no sense in worrying about defending because we will concede no matter what we do. But we need to be able to hold onto the ball and bring it forward

[Mac76]

Zinchenko as awful as he is more likely to get the game to open up.

unfortunately the way he usually opens it up is for the opposition to attack us when he frequently gives the ball away

[HCZ_Reborn]

unfortunately the way he usually opens it up is for the opposition to attack us when he frequently gives the ball away

He does give the ball away a lot but so does Partey so there it is. I’m not comparing him with Partey, but he has successful passing stats especially with the give and go on the left.

It’s not ideal I admit, but as I say…not playing Havertz there, not playing Trossard there because he needs to be up front and playing Rice well we might as well call ourselves hypocrites for chiding Arteta for putting out a team that limits its attacking options

[Mac76]

I'll say it again, I'd genuinely rather we turned out with ten men than have Zin, it might actualy encourage us to be a lot more direct instead of messing around outside the opposition area all the time

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'll say it again, I'd genuinely rather we turned out with ten men than have Zin, it might actualy encourage us to be a lot more direct instead of messing around outside the opposition area all the time

You can say it as many times as you like, you can pay for an airplane to fly the message over the Emirates on match day…doesn’t compel me to give a fuck. As far as I’m concerned your view on football means as much to me as that of my brother who is defending the lineup Arteta has put out the last couple of weeks. The fact that you go to games and think that gives you greater authority on what works is actually amusing to me. And for me it’s more sign of your sense of fragile ego that you need to be taken seriously.

[HCZ_Reborn]

That’s a bit caustic even for me, but the Gypos are over the field with their shitty funfair and it’s going to be here for a week. And even closing the window doesn’t drown them out. Wretched itinerant fuckers

[Mac76]

Thanks for the (sort of) apology :) 'funfairs' drive me nuts too

Tbh am not bothered by what you said, maybe it does sound a bit arrogant to say i can see more at the game, I do just think some things can be more evident when you're able to see the whole field all the time, I'm in the upper tier so can see how it's all set out

And i could knock the fragile ego/need to be taken seriously argument right back over the net if I felt like it ;)

This is an Arsenal messageboard, we're supposed to debate the best player/lineup etc, I'm just surprised you think Zin has any merit whatsover, especially compared to Rice who's only played two games and has looked reasonably good if not spectacular (though I admit his passing has gone astray a bit more than I woild expect for £100m, I think he has generally shown much greater usefulneness both in defence and attack than Zin

[HCZ_Reborn]

Thanks for the (sort of) apology :) 'funfairs' drive me nuts too

Tbh am not bothered by what you said, maybe it does sound a bit arrogant to say i can see more at the game, I do just think some things can be more evident when you're able to see the whole field all the time, I'm in the upper tier so can see how it's all set out

And i could knock the fragile ego/need to be taken seriously argument right back over the net if I felt like it ;)

This is an Arsenal messageboard, we're supposed to debate the best player/lineup etc, I'm just surprised you think Zin has any merit whatsover, especially compared to Rice who's only played two games and has looked reasonably good if not spectacular (though I admit his passing has gone astray a bit more than I woild expect for £100m, I think he has generally shown much greater usefulneness both in defence and attack than Zin


As I said Rice is Frank Lampard, bit better in defence, not likely to score many more goals but he’s a roll your sleeves up player in the absence of any talent. Zinchenko is infuriating because he is casual and can take too long to pick out a pass but I disagree that he’s inferior to Rice offensively. He’s a better passer of the ball, a much wider passing range and a much better idea of how to see the game to get it to open up. Rice is a harder worker, a tidier player and has a lot of positional discipline and does seem to have good leadership skills. But he’s average, pace, strength, passing…all average. Playing him and Partey together will only serve to make things more defensive.

Oh I’ve got a massive ego issue, that’s why against my better judgement I respond to NQ on politics, even though it’s completely pointless.

I can understand the egos of people like Mourinho and even Trump, I share all their worst tendencies of going ad hominem…I think I enjoy it. And I don’t recognise that in Arteta, generally think he’s unbothered by peoples opinions of him. It’s quite possible he prefers players that won’t answer back, but I think because in his mind that’s the path of least resistance when it comes to implementing his plans, not to have a player say “this is not a good idea”. He’s not bothered by contrary opinions but he has no interest in them. Younger players are more pliable and more likely to buy in, where as older players more likely to want to stick to what they know.

How well he sells his vision I don’t know, but I do think he’s genuinely confused and frustrated that this new system he’s implemented hasn’t yielded more goals.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Kiwior in for Tomoyasu and Trossard for Nketiah, but ultimately any semblance of a sensible team is put to one side. By benching Gabriel and by playing White and Rice and by playing Havertz as LCM

[Mac76]

Kiwior in for Tomoyasu and Trossard for Nketiah, but ultimately any semblance of a sensible team is put to one side. By benching Gabriel and by playing White and Rice and by playing Havertz as LCM

Benching Gabriel is mind-bendingly dumb, his partnership with Saliba was massive for us last year

He's clearly run up against Arteta's character defects and is out of favour, there can't be another reason

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Arsenal: Ramsdale, Partey, White, Saliba, Kiwior, Rice, Odegaard, Havertz, Saka, Martinelli, Trossard.
Subs: Raya, Zinchenko, Gabriel, Jorginho, Vieira, Smith Rowe, Nelson, Nketiah, Jesus.

Fulham: Leno, Tete, Diop, Bassey, Robinson, Palhinha, Lukic, Pereira, Wilson, Jimenez, De Cordova-Reid.
Subs: Rodak, Tosin, Reed, Cairney, Adama, Muniz, Mbabu, Vinícius, Harris.

[Mac76]

Trossard is starting :faint:

I really hope he gets a couple of goals and makes himself undroppable (by any sane manager at least...)

[HCZ_Reborn]

Benching Gabriel is mind-bendingly dumb, his partnership with Saliba was massive for us last year

He's clearly run up against Arteta's character defects and is out of favour, there can't be another reason


Well there’s plenty of reasons. Arteta is a Galaxy Brain, always has been, always will be. No one else would play Havertz in central midfield, no one else would play Zinchenko a man who understands the role of left back as well as a houseplant understands applied Economics over Tierney.

It always comes down to that with Arteta, the ordinary and conventional way of setting up a team has never been to his tastes. Either that or Gabriel isn’t fully fit but who knows. Given the Saudis came sniffing and he’s still with us, maybe don’t want to read too much into it

[HCZ_Reborn]

Trossard is starting :faint:

I really hope he gets a couple of goals and makes himself undroppable (by any sane manager at least...)


Not going to happen is it? The whole team will struggle to get a couple of goals.

[Mac76]

Not going to happen is it? The whole team will struggle to get a couple of goals.

A man can still dream... :(

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fulham score - Perreira

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Pereira.

Oh Saka.

[Letters]

:doh:

[Marc Overmars]

Incredible how fucking sloppy we are at home.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Might be a blessing in disguise, might cause us to junk this ridiculous system

[HCZ_Reborn]

Odegaard scores but flag goes up for Havertz being offside

[HCZ_Reborn]

Trossard was our best player first half, so Arteta takes him off for Nketiah :blink:

Too much of a goal threat obviously

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Arteta deserves a special place in hell for inflicting Havertz on us!!!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Zinchenko on for Partey

Vieira on for Havertz


Presumably the second is a straight swap and Zinchenko will go to left back whilst White goes to right back

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Havertz is looking every inch the totally bizarre signing we thought it was.

[dostoy]

Why is Gabriel not starting? Does anyone know?

[HCZ_Reborn]

We have a penalty :haha: about the only way we get goals at the moment

[McNamara That Ghost...]

PELANTY!

[Globalgunner]

Why is Gabriel not starting? Does anyone know?

Because Arteta is loathe to leave White out of any starting 11. The man is an animated robot with faulty programming ab initio

[Marc Overmars]

1-1 Saka

[Letters]

We have a penalty :haha: about the only way we get goals at the moment

Obviously I’m not watching but this is worrying me.
Even if we do turn it round it’s lending credibility to the #HCZWozRight thesis
The lack of a striker does concern me but scoring goals wasn’t actually that big a problem last year. So far this year we are labouring

[McNamara That Ghost...]

SAKA!!!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Obviously I’m not watching but this is worrying me.
Even if we do turn it round it’s lending credibility to the #HCZWozRight thesis
The lack of a striker does concern me but scoring goals wasn’t actually that big a problem last year. So far this year we are labouring

I don’t think we recognise how much pressure we are putting on players like Saka, Martinelli and Odegaard by not having a striker. That plus we are playing a system where in we are creating less chances.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Edward scores 2-1

[McNamara That Ghost...]

NKETIAH!!

[Marc Overmars]

Xhaka made a lot of difference in these kind of games last season in that role he had.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Xhaka made a lot of difference in these kind of games last season in that role he had.

Yes he did, and he was rubbish. If we’d got an upgrade on him we’d be laughing

Though give Vieira credit, he won the penalty and got an assist for Edward

That said bit shitty of us not to put the ball out of play, do I care? No

[Marc Overmars]

Yes he did, and he was rubbish. If we’d got an upgrade on him we’d be laughing

Though give Vieira credit, he won the penalty and got an assist for Edward

That said bit shitty of us not to put the ball out of play, do I care? No

Yeah fuck them. Not like we’d be afforded any sympathy if it were the other way around.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Arteta booked. :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Bassey sent off for Fulham. :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Bassey who was down for our second goal…is sent off for second yellow

[HCZ_Reborn]

And in response to that Arteta brings on Jorginho for Odegaard

The guy really is the enemy of football isn’t he

[Marc Overmars]

2-2 :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ten man Fulham get a second 2-2

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-2. :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Comes from a corner which was won by them robbing Zinchenko

[HCZ_Reborn]

Have to say we don’t deserve to win today, been totally awful again.

[Marc Overmars]

You can’t outplay bad habits and unfortunately this team is riddled with them. Eventually they’ll catch up with you.

[Marc Overmars]

Oh now he brings on Jesus. :haha:

[HCZ_Reborn]

You can’t outplay bad habits and unfortunately this team is riddled with them. Eventually they’ll catch up with you.

I don’t blame the team, I blame the coach. We wouldn’t be in this situation if he stopped trying to be a clever dick and we were playing a system that suits us

[HCZ_Reborn]

This guy is turning supporting Arsenal into torture, please can we be rid of him

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fulham with ten men, almost get a third on the break

[Letters]

This guy is turning supporting Arsenal into torture, please can we be rid of him
The one game you predicted we’d win.
Stop getting everything wrong! :angry:

[HCZ_Reborn]

The one game you predicted we’d win.
Stop getting everything wrong! :angry:

Well in fairness we finally got a result our performances deserved

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-2 FT.

Us. :lol:

[dostoy]

From what I saw, Fabio Vieira looked pretty good. He gets a lot of shit on here but he was good today.

[HCZ_Reborn]

From what I saw, Fabio Vieira looked pretty good. He gets a lot of shit on here but he was good today.

Who cares? We managed to throw away two points against a side with ten men. We are an utter joke

[HCZ_Reborn]

Seriously though we need to look at what’s going on with this team, I simply refuse to accept that not having Xhaka in the side takes away our attacking potency.


Even Arteta had to give up and concede that playing Havertz in central midfield isn’t working so he’s not completely immune to reason.


But Saka was poor today, Odegaard was abysmal, Martinelli not at the races. We actually had the squad depth to drop all three.


Defence? Well it’s not defence that’s the problem it’s giving away the ball in midfield and being broken on…at home


Yes we need proper full backs but the real problem is attack. We’ve struggled to make chances and score goals, once we do that and we settle down and take the sting out of the game we won’t concede as many goals.

[Marc Overmars]

We are deceptively bad at home and that is a concern. The results won’t always bare it out but it is so inviting for teams to play at the Emirates, it’s not a fortress.

Early evidence suggests we’ve taken a step back and this team needs to play itself into form if we’re going to have any chance of doing something meaningful this year.

First of all I would just revert to last seasons back four to get Gabriel back in the team.

Maybe Jesus will help make things more effective up front now he’s back so let’s see what happens there. The biggest issue is not having Partey in the middle who was so important in moving us up the pitch and stopping breaks. Fuck knows why he’s playing right back but there you go.

Havertz has muddied the waters and him having no defined role is a major flaw. At least we knew what we were getting with Xhaka.

[Mac76]

One word: Zinchenko

I hate to say I told you so (well actually I don't ;) ) but like I've said repeatrdly he gives the ball away in dangerous situations and prrsents the opposition with chances, that's why I can't stand the guy

He did it again today and undid all the hard work we did to take the lead

But of course he'll continue to be first on the teamsheet

Havertz was beyond awful and should be dropped

Vieira was excellent and Eddie is starting to genuinely impress me

Everyone else was bad to average, although they weren't helped by the team being set up wrong at the start

[HCZ_Reborn]

One word: Zinchenko

I hate to say I told you so (well actually I don't ;) ) but like I've said repeatrdly he gives the ball away in dangerous situations and prrsents the opposition with chances, that's why I can't stand the guy

He did it again today and undid all the hard work we did to take the lead

But of course he'll continue to be first on the teamsheet

Havertz was beyond awful and should be dropped

Vieira was excellent and Eddie is starting to genuinely impress me

Everyone else was bad to average, although they weren't helped by the team being set up wrong at the start


One, there’s no way we deserved to win today you can’t stink up the place as badly as we did and deserve all three points. Two we are all aware of what Zinchenko does, but I’d still have rather him played in midfield than played Havertz there.

Plus let’s be fair it’s the kind of goal we were likely to concede anyway, we need to really address how easy it is to counter against us at the Emirates.

I agree with you RE: Vieira…if we got do overs in football I’d have started him. Nketiah? Not so much…I think what summed him up for me was squaring the ball for Martinelli rather than taking a shot on himself at 0-1. Too many of our players pass the Buck of responsibility, Trossard as good as he was especially guilty of this.

On one hand I’d maybe buy a left back before the transfer window closes, but to be honest I simply can’t stomach the idea of Arteta buying new defenders. If he can’t get the full back position right by now, he never will