Arsenal 2-2 Fulham Player ratings and Match reaction

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ramsdale 6 - Didn’t do a lot wrong for either goal was a virtual spectator


White 5 - Needs to be dropped


Saliba 6 - Needs to be playing alongside Gabriel


Kiwior 5 - Not his fault, he shouldn’t be playing at left back


Partey 5 - Vacates the space because he’s a midfielder not a right back


Rice 5 - How many times did I say we shouldn’t be starting with him


Havertz - 3 - We’ve got to stop playing him as a central midfielder he isn’t one


Martinelli - 6 - Got what were a few tame shots away but hasn’t looked right all season


Odegaard - 5 - Trying hard but it’s not coming off for him


Saka - 5 Careless in giving the ball away for their first goal


Trossard - 7 - Our best player first half, why he was brought off I don’t know



Subs -


Jorginho 5 - Anonymous

Zinchenko 3 - We can’t play him at left back all season, it’d be suicide

Vieira 7.5 - Won a pen, got an assist and was unlucky not to score himself


Nketiah 6.5 - Yes he scored but too timid, and passed up other opportunities to score

Jesus 5 - Did nothing




From back to front this was an utter disaster, it’s been waiting to happen since the start of the season. In some ways if it ends the Havertz playing central midfield experiment, Partey playing at right back experiment….then in some ways it’s a blessing in disguise. Holding on to the lead today would have been a travesty in a game we deserved to lose. There are goals in this side, but we need to play in a way conducive to getting those goals from us and we look massively unbalanced. There’s only one man to blame for that, you know how I feel….every game this man continues to coach this football club is an affront to us. But I have to accept he’s not getting the boot and hope against hope that today is a blasting alarm clock wake up call for him.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Your ratings are pretty much spot on today (except for Rice who had another good game).

I'm not going to bother anyone with a long post, because I'm still seething and its pretty obvious who/what our problems are.

The only thing I'll say is if Kai Havertz starts the next game we really need to investigate and find out if the rookie is on the take.

A pathetic signing that had neon lights all over it!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Your ratings are pretty much spot on today (except for Rice who had another good game).

I'm not going to bother anyone with a long post, because I'm still seething and its pretty obvious who/what our problems are.

The only thing I'll say is if Kai Havertz starts the next game we really need to investigate and find out if the rookie is on the take.

A pathetic signing that had neon lights all over it!


I have no problem with Havertz playing, in fact I’d start him over Odegaard…just not in central midfield


I think people here will have to concede that Rice shouldn’t be playing for us, doesn’t suit the way we play and isn’t quick enough to neutralise Fulham counter attacks

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I have no problem with Havertz playing, in fact I’d start him over Odegaard…just not in central midfield


I think people here will have to concede that Rice shouldn’t be playing for us, doesn’t suit the way we play and isn’t quick enough to neutralise Fulham counter attacks

Did you not watch the 1st half....I mean even I missed their goal but I did see all the half chances where Kai pretended he'd never been a striker before! Yes, I understand Trossard was suppose to be the forward, but he clearly wasn't getting anything from being there and being the smart player he is he drifted deeper and more to the left (where Martinelli was struggling) giving the simpleton that is Kai all the space he needed to operate.

Yes, he has no business playing the Xhaka role, even the blind can see that now, but even as a striker, he is and has always been utterly toothless in the EPL and their was bags of empirical evidence that supported this already.

Say what you like about Eddie's quality, but he got the job done in a few minutes.

Havertz was a £65m gift to Chelsea which they used to get players we had already identified. Simple.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Did you not watch the 1st half....I mean even I missed their goal but I did see all the half chances where Kai pretended he'd never been a striker before! Yes, I understand Trossard was suppose to be the forward, but he clearly wasn't getting anything from being there and being the smart player he is he drifted deeper and more to the left (where Martinelli was struggling) giving the simpleton that is Kai all the space he needed to operate.

Yes, he has no business playing the Xhaka role, even the blind can see that now, but even as a striker, he is and has always been utterly toothless in the EPL and their was bags of empirical evidence that supported this already.

Say what you like about Eddie's quality, but he got the job done in a few minutes.

Havertz was a £65m gift to Chelsea which they used to get players we had already identified. Simple.


Disagree, don’t get me wrong I wouldn’t have bought him either but when you look at how bad Odegaard has been lately I’d play Havertz there simply because he can hold up the ball. He was horrible today, when even Arteta decided to sub him that was painfully obvious. But whilst I’d have never signed him in a million years, we don’t have a player who can hold up the ball and if you played him in the hole where he could switch between that and a front two with Eddie, I actually think you’d see the best out of him.

Eddie scored but still too indecisive and panics when put through.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Honestly if it wasn’t for the fact that we were playing United next week I’d drop Saka, Martinelli and Odegaard for next week


Play a front four of Havertz, Nelson, Trossard and Edward…Nelson on the left, Trossard on the right


Our defence is always horrible at home, but scoring 5 goals in 3 games (two of them penalties) is offensive to me

[HCZ_Reborn]

In fact you know what fuck it, don’t care that it’s United


Ramsdale, Kiwior, Gabriel, Saliba, Tomoyasu, Jorginho, Vieira, Havertz, Trossard, Nelson, Nketiah


No more Rice, White, Odegaard.


Bench Saka, Martinelli and Partey

[Chippy]

Ramsdale 6 - Didn’t do a lot wrong for either goal was a virtual spectator


White 5 - Needs to be dropped


Saliba 6 - Needs to be playing alongside Gabriel


Kiwior 5 - Not his fault, he shouldn’t be playing at left back


Partey 5 - Vacates the space because he’s a midfielder not a right back


Rice 5 - How many times did I say we shouldn’t be starting with him


Havertz - 3 - We’ve got to stop playing him as a central midfielder he isn’t one


Martinelli - 6 - Got what were a few tame shots away but hasn’t looked right all season


Odegaard - 5 - Trying hard but it’s not coming off for him


Saka - 5 Careless in giving the ball away for their first goal


Trossard - 7 - Our best player first half, why he was brought off I don’t know



Subs -


Jorginho 5 - Anonymous

Zinchenko 3 - We can’t play him at left back all season, it’d be suicide

Vieira 7.5 - Won a pen, got an assist and was unlucky not to score himself


Nketiah 6.5 - Yes he scored but too timid, and passed up other opportunities to score

Jesus 5 - Did nothing




From back to front this was an utter disaster, it’s been waiting to happen since the start of the season. In some ways if it ends the Havertz playing central midfield experiment, Partey playing at right back experiment….then in some ways it’s a blessing in disguise. Holding on to the lead today would have been a travesty in a game we deserved to lose. There are goals in this side, but we need to play in a way conducive to getting those goals from us and we look massively unbalanced. There’s only one man to blame for that, you know how I feel….every game this man continues to coach this football club is an affront to us. But I have to accept he’s not getting the boot and hope against hope that today is a blasting alarm clock wake up call for him.

To make things worse, West Ham and scum in the top two. FFS.

[HCZ_Reborn]

To make things worse, West Ham and scum in the top two. FFS.

Both been better than us this season, what do you expect?

[Marc Overmars]

I would get Gabriel back in with Saliba and move White to RB again.

Partey needs to be in the middle.

Arteta has dismantled elements of the team that actually worked last season. We’ve got a tricky run of games now and I sense a lot of unrest if this mess hasn’t sorted itself out by the end of it.

[Marc Overmars]

Above all else though, the stupid fucking errors. No matter what system you’re playing you can’t account for dimwitted things like that Saka error so early.

If you’re not switched on from the start then you’re always facing an uphill battle. Conceding early goals and chances is a common theme at home.

[mandela8]

Fuckin woeful.

Mind when I came back here I said the team was improving despite Arteta and would've progressed further with a proper manager???

<sips tea>

Anyway...

Today was pathetic. Two DMs, one cover RB, and no striker at home to Fulham is ridiculous.

The favoritism in the squad is toxic and it will inevitably tell. We've already seen it with Pepe, now Balagun and Tierney and I suspect Trossard will shortly be next.

There's just summin off about the set up. Arsenal were fairly close to competing last season and there were 2 very obvious areas to improve, CM and Striker. Our best and only world class players were a DM and and AMC, in Partey and Odegaard and what do Arteta bring in, for the best part of 200m? A DM and an AMC. That's not how you improve a team.

Everyone, including the incels on here who have never kicked a ball knew Havertz was a strange buy and lo and behold, he's looked every bit as out of place as everyone thought he would...except the 2 people actually responsible for identifying and agreeing fees for players.

They've now spent more than half a billion and there's not a single reliable forward in the entire squad. It's a baffling situation that seems to have avoided any real scrutiny.

That's it to even mention the decisions taken when in the lead in games. Trying to shut up shop on 78 minutes when refs are now regularly playing double digit injury time just smacks of amateur hour.

As for ratings, Partey and Odegaard were good again. Viera was MOM despite only coming on later. Everyone else were shite

[Chippy]

Ramsdale 6 - Didn’t do a lot wrong for either goal was a virtual spectator


White 5 - Needs to be dropped


Saliba 6 - Needs to be playing alongside Gabriel


Kiwior 5 - Not his fault, he shouldn’t be playing at left back


Partey 5 - Vacates the space because he’s a midfielder not a right back


Rice 5 - How many times did I say we shouldn’t be starting with him


Havertz - 3 - We’ve got to stop playing him as a central midfielder he isn’t one


Martinelli - 6 - Got what were a few tame shots away but hasn’t looked right all season


Odegaard - 5 - Trying hard but it’s not coming off for him


Saka - 5 Careless in giving the ball away for their first goal


Trossard - 7 - Our best player first half, why he was brought off I don’t know



Subs -


Jorginho 5 - Anonymous

Zinchenko 3 - We can’t play him at left back all season, it’d be suicide

Vieira 7.5 - Won a pen, got an assist and was unlucky not to score himself


Nketiah 6.5 - Yes he scored but too timid, and passed up other opportunities to score

Jesus 5 - Did nothing




From back to front this was an utter disaster, it’s been waiting to happen since the start of the season. In some ways if it ends the Havertz playing central midfield experiment, Partey playing at right back experiment….then in some ways it’s a blessing in disguise. Holding on to the lead today would have been a travesty in a game we deserved to lose. There are goals in this side, but we need to play in a way conducive to getting those goals from us and we look massively unbalanced. There’s only one man to blame for that, you know how I feel….every game this man continues to coach this football club is an affront to us. But I have to accept he’s not getting the boot and hope against hope that today is a blasting alarm clock wake up call for him.

40 points race is on :popcorn:

[Mac76]

I have no problem with Havertz playing, in fact I’d start him over Odegaard…just not in central midfield


I think people here will have to concede that Rice shouldn’t be playing for us, doesn’t suit the way we play and isn’t quick enough to neutralise Fulham counter attacks

Completely wrong, how anyone can want to see Havertz in an Arsenal shirt again is beyond me, you.literally can't have actually been watching the game

He's slow, both physically and mentally and serves no useful purpose wherever you put him, while Odegaard is a bit out of sorts that is where I blame the system and in particular not playing White at RB given how well he links up with Odegasrd and Saka when he is played there

And you really do need to get over the Rice hate, I thought he was one of our better players, as did everyone else I spoke to at, and after, the game

[HCZ_Reborn]

Completely wrong, how anyone can want to see Havertz in an Arsenal shirt again is beyond me, you.literally can't have actually been watching the game

He's slow, both physically and mentally and serves no useful purpose wherever you put him, while Odegaard is a bit out of sorts that is where I blame the system and in particular not playing White at RB given how well he links up with Odegasrd and Saka when he is played there

And you really do need to get over the Rice hate, I thought he was one of our better players, as did everyone else I spoke to at, and after, the game


I saw the game, you need to get over this peculiar tendency you have of being unable to understand the perspective of people who don’t agree with you. I don’t think that anyone who has ever watched a game would ever risk playing White at right back ever again, because of his inability to deal with pace or prevent crosses from coming in. But that’s just a different opinion.
I get it, Havertz was terrible but I don’t agree that he serves no useful purpose. I have stated until I was blue in the face that we need someone who can hold up the ball and provide aerial threat. Now Havertz absolutely would not have been my preferred option to do this, but the fact is he does offer those things.

It’s funny how you criticise Arteta for not wanting to rotate, but yet you’re so certain this player or that player must never play for us as if somehow we have a bottomless pit of squad depth.

Also please stop using silly emotional words like Hate, I don’t hate Rice but he’s not the right player for us, if we played a more defensive minded game it would make sense but actually playing him is a hinderance in games like Fulham because the space we leave to be attacked with pace completely makes him a pointless addition.

[Mac76]

It's not about someone disagreeing, it's when they can't see what's right in front of them that bemuses me

Havertz is patently awful, if a player is awful we shouldn't play him, it's that simple

White is a better defender than some people give him credit for, plua what he offers as an attacking option, linking up witb Saka and Odegaard, is a real benefit

I don't see how you think Rice isn't needed, we need a good DM and that's essentially the role he's playing, plus he plays some good intelligent passes forward

Vieira showed what can be done in that 8 role when you can actually play to a good level

The lineup against Moan U should be as follows:

Ram
White
Saliba
Gabriel
Tierney
Rice
Vieira
Saka
Trossard
Martinelli
Eddie (in leiu of buying a better striker)

We all know it won't happen, not least because Arteta has favourites in Zin and Havertz, plus he doesn't like Tierney and, it increasingly seems, Gabriel - another very good player Arteta is putting on the scrap heap, presumably for some petty reason or other

[Marc Overmars]

The most simple thing to do is to put White at RB, bring back Gabriel and move Partey into the middle.

It’s obvious to me that Arteta is trying to accommodate Havertz in an attempt to justify the ridiculous outlay on him.

[Mac76]

The most simple thing to do is to put White at RB, bring back Gabriel and move Partey into the middle.

It’s obvious to me that Arteta is trying to accommodate Havertz in an attempt to justify the ridiculous outlay on him.

Do we need to play Partey if we have Rice though?

And yes, completely agree re Havertz, Arteta's partly tied his reputation to that signing

[HCZ_Reborn]

It's not about someone disagreeing, it's when they can't see what's right in front of them that bemuses me

Havertz is patently awful, if a player is awful we shouldn't play him, it's that simple

White is a better defender than some people give him credit for, plua what he offers as an attacking option, linking up witb Saka and Odegaard, is a real benefit

I don't see how you think Rice isn't needed, we need a good DM and that's essentially the role he's playing, plus he plays some good intelligent passes forward

Vieira showed what can be done in that 8 role when you can actually play to a good level

The lineup against Moan U should be as follows:

Ram
White
Saliba
Gabriel
Tierney
Rice
Vieira
Saka
Trossard
Martinelli
Eddie (in leiu of buying a better striker)

We all know it won't happen, not least because Arteta has favourites in Zin and Havertz, plus he doesn't like Tierney and, it increasingly seems, Gabriel - another very good player Arteta is putting on the scrap heap, presumably for some petty reason or other

Doubling down I see, difference between has been awful and is awful is a subtlety that escapes you. Has been awful I grant you is pretty clear cut…is awful I disagree with.

White is a good defender but he’s a good centre back so unless you’re suggesting he should start instead of Gabriel or Saliba

Not really sure what the issue is

And although I’m horrified by Arteta’s team selection, the fact that you’d play a plodder like Rice over Partey reassures me that it could always be worse

[Marc Overmars]

Do we need to play Partey if we have Rice though?

And yes, completely agree re Havertz, Arteta's partly tied his reputation to that signing

I think Rice could potentially do Xhaka’s role if he had Partey next to him. He’s got enough energy to play box to box and isn’t afraid of shooting and linking up with the forwards. That’s just my gut feeling.

Partey at right back is just stupid, a total waste of a very good player who was quite instrumental in the good we showed last year. White isn’t perfect but it’s much better for the team if he’s there than Partey.

I don’t know if something has gone on with Gabriel but there’s no reason why he shouldn’t be Saliba’s partner.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think Rice could potentially do Xhaka’s role if he had Partey next to him. He’s got enough energy to play box to box and isn’t afraid of shooting and linking up with the forwards. That’s just my gut feeling.

Partey at right back is just stupid, a total waste of a very good player who was quite instrumental in the good we showed last year. White isn’t perfect but it’s much better for the team if he’s there than Partey.

I don’t know if something has gone on with Gabriel but there’s no reason why he shouldn’t be Saliba’s partner.


I don’t think Rice could play there, he hasn’t got the range of passing and he’s no quicker than Xhaka. Maybe for games like Man United where it’s safety first but I don’t think Arteta understands the concept of putting different teams out depending on what opponent you’re playing.

The problem is he’s trying to get us to play like City, and neither Partey, Rice or Odegaard are good enough in possession to make that laudable. That’s why we concede so many goals at home, we get dispossessed and teams can run at us.

I think the players we have are better off at playing on the counter attack. We’ve got very good defenders, we just need to be able to tweak things so that we can soak up pressure and break on other teams

[Mac76]

I think Rice could potentially do Xhaka’s role if he had Partey next to him. He’s got enough energy to play box to box and isn’t afraid of shooting and linking up with the forwards. That’s just my gut feeling.

Partey at right back is just stupid, a total waste of a very good player who was quite instrumental in the good we showed last year. White isn’t perfect but it’s much better for the team if he’s there than Partey.

I don’t know if something has gone on with Gabriel but there’s no reason why he shouldn’t be Saliba’s partner.

Fair enough, though certainly for aome games I might prefer Vieira at 8

The Gabriel thing is strange but it has the look of his having fallen out with Arteta

The test will be the Utd game, now Zin is back I suspect White will go back to RB, so if Gabriel isn't slotted back in beside Saliba we'll know something's definitely up

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Just realised the Man U game is at home, not looking good as Arteta's brain seems to skip when in front of us.

Against Man U its simple, no need to force the play, just play our best players and the team that got us where we were last season. Basically what he did against Citeh, but make sure Havertz doesn't even make the bench this time.

Eddie is our best striker currently, end off. Jesus is still rusty and shouldn't start.

Saka nailed on, though he had a poor game yesterday... but we have to accept that he's the best attacking player we have.

IMO, Trossard should start ahead of Martinelli. He's been making bizzare last min decisions for the past few games and is low on confidence. You get that with babes. Trossard on the other hand has bags of experience, he either plays well or doesn't . Also he's the only forward player I trust to put the ball in the net when given a good chance instead of hiting it directly at the keeper over and over again.

As for the guys behind them, Odegaard has been extremely poor this season, but wakes up in patches. Unfortunately I can't think of someone else for now. Who knows, if we had tried to get Kudus like I screamed all summer we would have had able deputies.

Partey and Rice to start. Stable midfield, we win the midfield battle, dictate a slow game and help out the defence.

Like everyone is saying, 4 defenders at the back. Gabriel brought back in, though likely to get a red or give away a penalty now that he is rusty. White on the right and whoever he wants to play on the left, though Zin might be an overkill in a already crowded midfield.

With the team I stated, it might end up being a boring slow game, but we are less likely to lose.

We had the easiest start to the season of all the big boys and we've wasted it already. Its a big shame our manager doesn't know his strongest lineup after 3 games (and a summer where everyone knew his transfer targets 4 months back!) but now he'll have to find out the hard way with the next couple of difficult games we have.

We largely failed and were taken advantage of in this summer transfer window, something I got chastised for screaming about, but we need to get over it. The most important thing is we kept all the players that kept us ticking. We as fans probably need to get involved and let Arteta know clearly, that we won't allow him to dismantle what we've waited years for, just to prove he knows everything and is not a poor man's version of Pep. I hate booing players, but we need to let him know none of us wants favourites and passengers in this team.

Its stupid we start moving backwards when we have everything to actually advance. Really really stupid.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

https://www.metro.co.uk/2023/08/26/martin-keown-slams-aaron-ramsdale-for-fulham-goal-vs-arsenal-19400754/amp/

I missed their goal, but when I did see the replay the main person I blamed was actually Ramsdale. I wonder why everyone else was so quiet on it here. His habit of losing concentration in the first few minutes is firmly a thing now.

Anyway he did make an unbelievable save from Traore later on in the game, but of our last few keepers in the EPL (Leno and Martinez), Ramsdale is getting shown up more and more and its clear why Southgate doesn't rate him.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.metro.co.uk/2023/08/26/martin-keown-slams-aaron-ramsdale-for-fulham-goal-vs-arsenal-19400754/amp/

I missed their goal, but when I did see the replay the main person I blamed was actually Ramsdale. I wonder why everyone else was so quiet on it here. His habit of losing concentration in the first few minutes is a firmly a thing now.

Anyway he did make an unbelievable save from Traore later on in the game, but of our last few keepers in the EPL (Leno and Martinez), Ramsdale is getting shown up more and more and its clear why Southgate doesn't rate him.


You also have to factor in that Southgate is a moron, and when you look at players he does rate like Harry Maguire (cough and Declan Rice) we’ve got someone who exceeds Arteta in squandering the opportunities that a promising young England side might otherwise have

Ramsdale came out to close down the space, being lobbed from there felt like a fluke to me. And I’m sorry but it was Saka responsible, these casual passes that attacking players and midfielders are constantly making…do our back five no favours


It’s also incidental, the problem yesterday was struggling to score against a rubbish Fulham side. Half because Havertz playing in central midfield means Martinelli is isolated (though granted he’s not playing well anyway) and leaving Saka as our only attacking outlet.

[Letters]

Mind when I came back here I said the team was improving despite Arteta and would've progressed further with a proper manager???

No.
But I’m interested what events lead you to declare yourself very very right.

[Mac76]

https://www.metro.co.uk/2023/08/26/martin-keown-slams-aaron-ramsdale-for-fulham-goal-vs-arsenal-19400754/amp/

I missed their goal, but when I did see the replay the main person I blamed was actually Ramsdale. I wonder why everyone else was so quiet on it here. His habit of losing concentration in the first few minutes is a firmly a thing now.

Anyway he did make an unbelievable save from Traore later on in the game, but of our last few keepers in the EPL (Leno and Martinez), Ramsdale is getting shown up more and more and its clear why Southgate doesn't rate him.

The original mistake was obviously Saka's but I do think Ramsdale was in a bad position and allowed himself to be wrong-footed

[HCZ_Reborn]

No.
But I’m interested what events lead you to declare yourself very very right.

First three games of this season?

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

The original mistake was obviously Saka's but I do think Ramsdale was in a bad position and allowed himself to be wrong-footed

Obviously Saka's misplaced pass was the cause, but with the way we play those passes happen often. We had Havertz, Saliba and even Trossard who made those same silly passes later on in the game, luckily he was on his line at those moments. The point is, like you have already said, he had no business being that far off his line at that point and made it so easy for the goal. I'm not saying they shouldn't have scored I'm just saying they shouldn't have scored that way.

Just think of how many times we robbed Fulham defenders of the ball, did we even get a chance to see Leno doing unnatural backwards runs? It was ridiculous that happening so early on and his game is replete with errors like that.

[Letters]

First three games of this season?

So 3 games out of a 50 game season? :lol:
After the first one or two he was saying that early season it’s all about the result and we needed to give it a bit of time. The first dropped points of the season and it’s this?

[HCZ_Reborn]

So 3 games out of a 50 game season? :lol:
After the first one or two he was saying that early season it’s all about the result and we needed to give it a bit of time. The first dropped points of the season and it’s this?

Well you obviously pay more attention to what he says than I do, I was only going by the single post

Whilst I’ve been consistently wrong in picking results (be positive that I think we will lose to United next week) I’ve also been consistently downbeat about this season.

[Letters]

Well you obviously pay more attention to what he says than I do, I was only going by the single post

Whilst I’ve been consistently wrong in picking results (be positive that I think we will lose to United next week) I’ve also been consistently downbeat about this season.
You are nothing if not consistent.
I’m generally a glass half full kind of guy but I’m pissed off about yesterday. It’s a bit early to be writing the whole season off but the lack of a really clinical striker is a concern

[HCZ_Reborn]

You are nothing if not consistent.
I’m generally a glass half full kind of guy but I’m pissed off about yesterday. It’s a bit early to be writing the whole season off but the lack of a really clinical striker is a concern

The lack of a clinical striker is a concern in terms of a sustained title challenge

The big concern is how we have an expensive and competent squad that is being played out of position, not being utilised to the best of its abilities and in many cases not being played at all

Even though his finishing is wayward I tend to agree with some people here that Edward has been one of the few positives this season because of his work rate and the way he makes himself available, he could possibly benefit from having a second striker to play with, but I think that second striker would be Kai Havertz who plays in the hole and changes position.

I’m not happy with the summer transfers, I’m not happy that we’ve left ourselves without proper fullbacks despite buying so many bloody defenders but I do think there’s a way to properly utilise every player in this squad if Captain Black wasn’t so bloody stubborn

[Chippy]

First three games of this season?

I have to agree. We pubbed two wins against two pub teams and a draw with a semi-pub team (maybe a cheap bistro). Arteta seems to be hell bent on playing players out of position.

[Letters]

I don’t really care about pubbing wins. No team cruises through every game. City got a scare today before the grim inevitability of their winner. But I do agree with the concerns about playing players out of position. It seems like Artera is trying a new system this season and it’s not working right now. Maybe it will click, maybe not. But I would note that feelings change quickly in football. Was it 2 years ago we were rock bottom after 3 games, a start which spawned a thousand memes. Especially as Spurs started with 3 wins to go top. 3 games later we won the NLD to go above them.
I’m not quite as willing to concede that this season is going to be a disaster yet, it’s too early.

[Marc Overmars]

Next 6 games involves United, Spurs, City and Chelsea. Also our annual defeat at Neverton to try and avoid too.

No real time to breathe here, this system needs to sort itself out ASAP or we will be fucked by November.

[mandela8]

No.
But I’m interested what events lead you to declare yourself very very right.

The consistency in the reasons for failure and dropped points. Nothing has changed during his tenure, in that regard. I only watch arsenal closely but I struggle to think of another manager who is so directly responsible for losing his team points and games.

His arrogance and inclination to thinking he's smarter than everyone else. I don't even mind him trying weird formations but playing people out of position a d not even playing a striker at home to Fulham is typical of him and he's done similar before and not learned from it.

The team just lacks a ruthlessness and this is instilled by Arteta. The outrageous favoritism shown so certain players who now know they're undroppable. There's just no hunger in some of them. We suffered from this in the '21 run in, when we just lacked attacking threat and the only player who consistently offered it, Pepe, couldn't get near the team.
The negativity whenever we take the lead. Just subbing all attacking players for defensive ones. What kinda message does this send to the players? Liverpool was the classic one and yesterday is fresh but he's done this numerous times. Against ten men at home to a poor side and he's making defensive subs at 80 minutes with fuck knows how much injury time to play nowadays.

Could go on all day but you don't even watch the games so I dunno why I'm bothering. This is all obvious to everyone.

[selassie]

I have kept quiet up until now but can anyone explain to me what Arteta is trying to do with this team? We look way flatter than last season and are playing as if we are getting to know each other again, I don't see the cohesion in the team that I saw last season.

I get that it takes time to bed new players in (Rice & Havertz), but what I don't get and don't like is the mass changes in positions to accomodate them. It has weakened the team. I know it's early days and these things take time, but if I was Arteta I would go back to basics and bed in some of the new players (Havertz) over time. All these mass changes to the team seem way too drastic to me and whilst we have played some nice stuff in short phases in all of the games so far, in the main we are struggling to control games and impose our style in games or at least our style of last season. This new approach seems like a 1 step forward with the signings and then 2 steps back with the team and tactics.

[Mac76]

The consistency in the reasons for failure and dropped points. Nothing has changed during his tenure, in that regard. I only watch arsenal closely but I struggle to think of another manager who is so directly responsible for losing his team points and games.

His arrogance and inclination to thinking he's smarter than everyone else. I don't even mind him trying weird formations but playing people out of position a d not even playing a striker at home to Fulham is typical of him and he's done similar before and not learned from it.

The team just lacks a ruthlessness and this is instilled by Arteta. The outrageous favoritism shown so certain players who now know they're undroppable. There's just no hunger in some of them. We suffered from this in the '21 run in, when we just lacked attacking threat and the only player who consistently offered it, Pepe, couldn't get near the team.
The negativity whenever we take the lead. Just subbing all attacking players for defensive ones. What kinda message does this send to the players? Liverpool was the classic one and yesterday is fresh but he's done this numerous times. Against ten men at home to a poor side and he's making defensive subs at 80 minutes with fuck knows how much injury time to play nowadays.



This

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

The consistency in the reasons for failure and dropped points. Nothing has changed during his tenure, in that regard. I only watch arsenal closely but I struggle to think of another manager who is so directly responsible for losing his team points and games.

His arrogance and inclination to thinking he's smarter than everyone else. I don't even mind him trying weird formations but playing people out of position a d not even playing a striker at home to Fulham is typical of him and he's done similar before and not learned from it.

The team just lacks a ruthlessness and this is instilled by Arteta. The outrageous favoritism shown so certain players who now know they're undroppable. There's just no hunger in some of them. We suffered from this in the '21 run in, when we just lacked attacking threat and the only player who consistently offered it, Pepe, couldn't get near the team.
The negativity whenever we take the lead. Just subbing all attacking players for defensive ones. What kinda message does this send to the players? Liverpool was the classic one and yesterday is fresh but he's done this numerous times. Against ten men at home to a poor side and he's making defensive subs at 80 minutes with fuck knows how much injury time to play nowadays.

Could go on all day but you don't even watch the games so I dunno why I'm bothering. This is all obvious to everyone.

:gp:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Unusually for him an insightful post although I’m a bit confused as to the Pepe point. If he’s talking about the 21/22 season he has a point, less so for the 20/21 season where Pepe did play a lot of games and there were games where he was effective and scored goals and games where he was utterly shite.

Now I think that Arteta plays favourites is beyond doubt, where I disagree with other posters on here is why that is, but suffice to say I think it still is to our detriment. With Pepe ultimately i think he saw a player that didn’t put in the work. There’s a bit of hypocrisy there because Martinelli is also as lazy as Pepe in that he won’t drop deep to win the ball himself and expects our midfielders to find him in space. Although the difference is Martinelli is 50 times the player Pepe is (although he’s not showing it this season)

But the Scotsman is absolutely right that Arteta thinks he’s the smartest guy in coaching but even if that’s true he’s obviously not a great communicator as the players often look confused. I also agree with him that the players and performances especially last season improved despite Arteta not because of him. What is the hall mark of Arteta is patchy form, bungled line ups with experimental systems that only seem to make sense to him.

I genuinely feel sorry for Kai Havertz as I have for a few years thought him a talented player…more of a luxury player than anything but still very talented (he was for me exceptionally good in the 2021 champions league final) but I think the way Chelsea were run as a club didn’t help him, and a hair brained coach at Arsenal is not helping him. Fans will turn on him quickly and I think that’s unfair because the effort is there even if the execution isn’t. I will say again for the avoidance of doubt, I’m not defending us signing him it makes no more sense to me than any of you, where I differ is that I think ostensibly he is a player we could get something from…however with this coach he’s more likely to end up being a Willian.

All I can say is if yesterday is a sign of things to come this season, i hope it spells the end for Arteta…I always hated this trust the process crap and i think that this project that we are going for certainly doesn’t depend on him or Edu for that matter. I’m not for throwing the baby out with the bath water. I wouldn’t have signed Rice, I wouldn’t have signed Havertz but I absolutely think both of them can be used to good effect despite their obvious limitations.

However what frustrates me is that with the money we’ve spent, that preserving with this idiot means we are going to have to take a step back to make the necessary adjustments to become title challengers, and I don’t even know if we will have the money to spend to do that…things like signing proper full backs, a proper box to box midfielder and a proper striker.


A decent coach could come in now, stabilise things and easily get us into top four and then use that as a platform to challenge for the title next season and i fear the longer we leave it to make the change, the more we will have to contend with other teams that have got their act together. I said I thought it was fair and reasonable that Arteta got this full season to expand upon the unexpected title challenge last season, but fairness as a concept strikes me as one for losers the older I get. Doing what’s necessary is more important than doing what’s fair.

[Mac76]

It's annoying to look at the league table right now, we'd be a clear second and level on points with Citeh if we only had a manager who made sensible decisions

Tbf I didn't think we'd be challenging this season, more trying to hold on to top four, but if we keep dropping silly points like this then given Chelsea, Liverpool and even dammit Spuds are starting fairly well I think we've a fight on our hands even for that.

I'm not looking forward to the CL at all, I think we'll be out at the first opportunity

The really depressing thing is the damage Arteta is doing, discarding players and dismantling the parts of the team and formation that worked.

Got to say, I think Arteta might be surprised by how quickly people become impatient, I could feel in the ground that expectations are really high

if he sticks with his bizarre lineups and with players like Havertz (which he's pretty much stuck with doing given it was his own big-money signing) and Zin, plus ostracising other players who could be making a real contribution, he might find the temperature going up more than he expected - maybe wishful thinking on my part but people aren't buying into what he's doing atm

I noticed Danny Murphy (not that I think he talks much sense) saying on MoTD that he thought Gabriel was on the way out, if that happens Arteta will habe a lot of explaining to do, while people could accept him driving out people lile Auba, Guendouzi etc, this one will be a lot harder to explain away, other than it being a result of his own managerial/personality defects

[HCZ_Reborn]

What’s more relevant is not how quickly idiot fans with more teeth than brain cells react negatively to Arteta, it’s how quickly Stanley and his idiot son do. Will they be influenced by a bad atmosphere at the Emirates? Possibly but less so than you’d imagine. It’s the results that will matter, Kroenke won’t like having spent out a lot of money for Arteta to be playing about like this.
I’d also strongly urge caution when it comes to Vieira, saying that he should be a starter because of one decent cameo against a side that will be battling relegation, at home…does not suddenly make him a decent player. Certainly not enough to risk starting him against United….too much underwhelming shit in the past to make that anything other than an absurd risk.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Gabriel going would be an absolute outrage, however I suspect he won’t be going. I think Galaxy brain is just trying to play some kind of “genius” line up rather than having fallen out with Gabriel M.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4iVugkW4AAC-kE?format=jpg&name=large



This appears to be the lineup people want us to play, and although for me it makes infinitely more sense than the one Arteta is choosing…it’s definitely for me not the right one


In the absence of Timber I think you have to have Tomoyasu there, in the absence of Tierney you play Kiwior at left back.


Rice and Partey must NOT play at the same time unless we are looking to defend first and foremost, it prevents the ball from getting forward quickly enough


Odegaard needs to be dropped for the foreseeable, and frankly at the moment I’d rather have Edward starting games than Jesus

[Mac76]

Vieira also had a very good game v Monaco, ok you will say 'only a friendly' but the point is he's contributing in a signoficant way, i e. his thinking and quality of play are very good

I guess if you drop Odegaard and Havertz, you can accomodate Vieira, Rice and Partey all in midfield, plus drop Zin and have Tomi at LB, given Tierney's been shipped out

[HCZ_Reborn]

Vieira also had a very good game v Monaco, ok you will say 'only a friendly' but the point is he's contributing in a signoficant way, i e. his thinking and quality of play are very good

I guess if you drop Odegaard and Havertz, you can accomodate Vieira, Rice and Partey all in midfield, plus drop Zin and have Tomi at LB, given Tierney's been shipped out

Tomoyasu is right footed, absolutely no way he should be playing left back and who does that leave at right back Ben White? That’s something I’m not prepared to compromise on. Ben White must never be allowed to play at right back ever again.

Tomoyasu is bad enough, another completely useless signing but he won’t get forward as much so he won’t leave space in behind.

As I say need to see far more from Vieira before I’d allow him to start games. Needs to go to the gym or start incorporating fish into his diet as well, as he has the upper body strength of a concentration camp inmate. Would have sold smith Rowe and had him as Odegaards back up option as don’t trust him in central midfield

Ultimately if we’d done the right business in the transfer window, we’d have bought Caicedo, and a box to box midfielder like Kessie or Fofana from Monaco (who we could have done a swap with over Balogun) and had more than enough money to buy a striker. Timber injury was unfortunate given he is far superior to White or Tomoyasu in the right back role and we could have sold the latter.

Not wasting money on overrated English players who strut around like they are Frank Lampard. But it is what it is.

I’d have signed an upgrade on Tierney as well potentially but I think ultimately that’s a luxury rather than a necessity

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://x.com/now_arsenai/status/1696091470241931709?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw


This is what we are dealing with at the moment, Kool Aid drinking morons. And it’s very fortunate that it’s not they who will ultimately decide Arteta’s fate. I’d like to say when he goes, he never gets a chance at coaching ever again. But I don’t know…would be hilarious if he ended up somewhere like Everton which is more his level and made things even worse for them. Four years ago, if I knew what I knew now…I’d have been very strongly opposed to us sacking Good Ebening and he was completely wrong for this club.

[Mac76]

https://x.com/now_arsenai/status/1696091470241931709?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw


This is what we are dealing with at the moment, Kool Aid drinking morons. And it’s very fortunate that it’s not they who will ultimately decide Arteta’s fate. I’d like to say when he goes, he never gets a chance at coaching ever again. But I don’t know…would be hilarious if he ended up somewhere like Everton which is more his level and made things even worse for them. Four years ago, if I knew what I knew now…I’d have been very strongly opposed to us sacking Good Ebening and he was completely wrong for this club.

Try reading the comments not just the main post, there's a lot of scepticism there

As for the Kroenkes, i think you're a bit behind the curve there, they are more hands on than they used to be and if Arteta's not delivering and there is a lot of disquiet they will notice it

Havertz has the potential to quickly become the next Willian, only this one's more firmly in his court, he wanted him, he overpaid for him, meaning he has to play him, he's built a real rod for his back because the fans are already getting on Havertz' case

[Letters]

It's annoying to look at the league table right now
By annoying do you mean “meaningless”?
You may remember back in the day they never even used to publish league tables till a reasonable number of games had been played as this early it doesn’t really mean much.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Try reading the comments not just the main post, there's a lot of scepticism there

As for the Kroenkes, i think you're a bit behind the curve there, they are more hands on than they used to be and if Arteta's not delivering and there is a lot of disquiet they will notice it

Havertz has the potential to quickly become the next Willian, only this one's more firmly in his court, he wanted him, he overpaid for him, meaning he has to play him, he's built a real rod for his back because the fans are already getting on Havertz' case


I did read the comments and yes there was some skepticism, but there were also a ridiculous load of stuff like “nothing will ever cause me to lose faith in this man”. I get the impression you don’t want to accept it, but your average Arsenal fan is a total retard…as Terence Fletcher put it “you give them a calculator and they’d try and change the tv channel with it”

Literally the only thing I said about the Kroenkes is that it is they and not the imbecile fanbase that will decide Arteta’s fate and it will be based on what money they think they stands to be wasted rather than the atmosphere at the ground. Though I’m not sure I’d necessarily agree about them being hands on, yes Josh Kroenke is there oh his fathers behalf most of the time but the guy has the intellectual capacity of Donald Trump Jnr….who even his own father acknowledges is a cretin. It’s Stan who takes the decisions and at most he will come out here once or twice a year. So things will have to be getting pretty ugly for him to act

[Mac76]

By annoying do you mean “meaningless”?
You may remember back in the day they never even used to publish league tables till a reasonable number of games had been played as this early it doesn’t really mean much.

I do remember but I think the tables tell us more than they used to, while I don't think we were ever going to challenge Citeh, to even get close you need to get all the points you'd be expected to and be right up at the top of the table - giving away a lead while the opposition are down to ten men isn't the type of form needed

[Mac76]

Elsewhere I still think we're too soft as a club and some of the attempts to build a winning mentality are embarrassing

If I took over at Arsenal I'd get rid of the anthem, get rid of the Ashburton tossers, pick a side that made sense (starting with players who are actually in-form) and tell them to go out and win the fucking game or they don't play next week

That would sort it :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Elsewhere I still think we're too soft as a club and some of the attempts to build a winning mentality are embarrassing

If I took over at Arsenal I'd get rid of the anthem, get rid of the Ashburton tossers, pick a side that made sense (starting with players who are actually in-form) and tell them to go out and win the fucking game or they don't play next week

That would sort it :lol:


Problem is it’s hard to create an intimidating atmosphere a) because so many fans have been priced out of games and b) it’s all about creating a family environment which isn’t conducive to scaring the shit out of travelling fans and away teams.

You keep bleating on about ultras as if they are the SA, but ultimately if you can’t even refer to an opposition player as a “rent boy” without risking criminal penalty, this idea of the club needing to toughen up becomes futile.

I don’t want actual thugs throwing lighters and bottles on the pitch…but you do want fans trying to get under opposition players skin. But football has become too sanitised for that.

[Letters]

I do remember but I think the tables tell us more than they used to, while I don't think we were ever going to challenge Citeh, to even get close you need to get all the points you'd be expected to and be right up at the top of the table - giving away a lead while the opposition are down to ten men isn't the type of form needed

I don’t really think think the table tells you much right now, but one thing which is true - you can’t win the league in August/September but you can lose it these days. You just can’t afford to lose 3 of the first 10 games these days. We’re in an era where champions barely lose that many all season. The run we’ve got coming up worries me. If we don’t get it together and get decent results we could be out of it before we’ve got going.

[mandela8]

I don’t really think think the table tells you much right now, but...

Actually watching the games does.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t really think think the table tells you much right now, but one thing which is true - you can’t win the league in August/September but you can lose it these days. You just can’t afford to lose 3 of the first 10 games these days. We’re in an era where champions barely lose that many all season. The run we’ve got coming up worries me. If we don’t get it together and get decent results we could be out of it before we’ve got going.


The number of defeats a team which finishes as champion suffers is give or take largely about the same as it always was, it’s the amount of drawn games that have decreased. Liverpool missed out on the title twice in five years because of too many draws for example, city on both occasions lost more games

[Mac76]

I don’t really think think the table tells you much right now, but one thing which is true - you can’t win the league in August/September but you can lose it these days. You just can’t afford to lose 3 of the first 10 games these days. We’re in an era where champions barely lose that many all season. The run we’ve got coming up worries me. If we don’t get it together and get decent results we could be out of it before we’ve got going.

Which is why i found it so disappointing - we had to win those first three games ot then be in the right place to take on Utd etc - but now Utd will come to the Emirates knowing we can't even hold onto a lead when we hve a man advantage

[Mac76]

Problem is it’s hard to create an intimidating atmosphere a) because so many fans have been priced out of games and b) it’s all about creating a family environment which isn’t conducive to scaring the shit out of travelling fans and away teams.

You keep bleating on about ultras as if they are the SA, but ultimately if you can’t even refer to an opposition player as a “rent boy” without risking criminal penalty, this idea of the club needing to toughen up becomes futile.

I don’t want actual thugs throwing lighters and bottles on the pitch…but you do want fans trying to get under opposition players skin. But football has become too sanitised for that.

you miss my point about the Ashburton lot - i don't a bunch of losers to tell me what to sing or when - i can decide that myself thanks - all this BS with anthems and 'ultras' and loud music just takes it away from the actual fans to create an atmosphere - i get your point about the changing fan base but how is a bunch of losers plus a cheesy anthem supposed to present an image of a club that means business?

all this stuff with pre-match huddles etc is BS too - personally i think the players should walk on in silence, don't say a word to each other, take up their positions and stare at the opposition - that's how to get the opposition unnerved

[HCZ_Reborn]

you miss my point about the Ashburton lot - i don't a bunch of losers to tell me what to sing or when - i can decide that myself thanks - all this BS with anthems and 'ultras' and loud music just takes it away from the actual fans to create an atmosphere - i get your point about the changing fan base but how is a bunch of losers plus a cheesy anthem supposed to present an image of a club that means business?

all this stuff with pre-match huddles etc is BS too - personally i think the players should walk on in silence, don't say a word to each other, take up their positions and stare at the opposition - that's how to get the opposition unnerved


I think you misunderstand me, I think all of the above equates to what Battery Sgt Major Williams would have called “blatant poofery”. Bollocks to the anthem, bollocks to certain singing areas, bollocks to this Mes Que un club Fabricated Barcelona bollocks.
If it were me I’d ban children from the ground (to be honest if I could get away with it, would ban women as well). No North London forever, just a loud wall of noise from inadequate sweary blokes…chucking vitriol at the opposition, making a racquet every time the referee gives a decision to the opposition.

We aren’t New Zealand so bollocks to any haka ritual, but no handshakes, no spirit of a nice and friendly game and instruct the defenders to kick the centre forwards at the earliest opportunity.

[Mac76]

I think you misunderstand me, I think all of the above equates to what Battery Sgt Major Williams would have called “blatant poofery”. Bollocks to the anthem, bollocks to certain singing areas, bollocks to this Mes Que un club Fabricated Barcelona bollocks.
If it were me I’d ban children from the ground (to be honest if I could get away with it, would ban women as well). No North London forever, just a loud wall of noise from inadequate sweary blokes…chucking vitriol at the opposition, making a racquet every time the referee gives a decision to the opposition.

We aren’t New Zealand so bollocks to any haka ritual, but no handshakes, no spirit of a nice and friendly game and instruct the defenders to kick the centre forwards at the earliest opportunity.

pretty much, except every time one of our defenders goes within a metre of an opposition player they're likely to get a booking, it's the refs' code when in charge of an Arsenal game

[Letters]

Which is why i found it so disappointing - we had to win those first three games ot then be in the right place to take on Utd etc - but now Utd will come to the Emirates knowing we can't even hold onto a lead when we hve a man advantage

If I’ve learned one thing about football it’s that every game is different. I don’t think throwing 2 points away on Saturday is any indication of how we will do in the next game. But it’s certainly true that teams will come to the Emirates knowing they can get goals, we have to do better with home clean sheets.

[Mac76]

If I’ve learned one thing about football it’s that every game is different. I don’t think throwing 2 points away on Saturday is any indication of how we will do in the next game. But it’s certainly true that teams will come to the Emirates knowing they can get goals, we have to do better with home clean sheets.

Let's not go round in circles, but there are underlying trends which, yes, are observable after three games and which can indicate the likelihood of our doing well going forward - and the underlying trend is that Arteta is picking the wrong lineup and in Havertz has signed a flop who we know he will have to keep playing becasue he splashed out so much on him

that's why I'm not at all confident about how well we will do against Man Ure next Sunday

[HCZ_Reborn]

If I’ve learned one thing about football it’s that every game is different. I don’t think throwing 2 points away on Saturday is any indication of how we will do in the next game. But it’s certainly true that teams will come to the Emirates knowing they can get goals, we have to do better with home clean sheets.

Lack of clean sheets is baked in to how we play at home. There’s no coincidence to six clean sheets in last thirty home league games.

We push up more in order to score more goals and we are giving up a load of space on the counter, that’s why it happens

[mandela8]

If I’ve learned one thing about football it’s that every game is different. I don’t think throwing 2 points away on Saturday is any indication of how we will do in the next game. But it’s certainly true that teams will come to the Emirates knowing they can get goals, we have to do better with home clean sheets.

Well, that's the thing...good managers do tend to lose games for different reasons, as teams try different things against them.

Weak managers tend to lose games for the same reasons, as they're too arrogant/ignorant/stubborn to change.

[Letters]

Well, that's the thing...good managers do tend to lose games for different reasons, as teams try different things against them.

Weak managers tend to lose games for the same reasons, as they're too arrogant/ignorant/stubborn to change.
I’m confused about your stance.
You are saying that Arteta is a net negative for us, right?
But we got was it our second or third highest PL points total last season.
We missed out on the title only to a side who basically won every game from the World Cup onwards.
Are you suggesting that our team was actually better than City’s and without Arteta we’d have won the PL? Given pre-season expectations that seems pretty unlikely to me.

I’m sure some of your criticisms of Arteta are valid. I’d also suggest that repeating mistakes is a pretty common mistake. God knows Wenger did.

TL;DR, Arteta has his flaws as do all managers. But last season has bought him some good will, despite the disappointing end we massively exceeded expectations. But given last season and the summer spending he’s going to have to deliver this year. I’m concerned about some of the things I’m seeing and hearing about, but ultimately he’s judged on results and so far they’ve been ok. Saturday was an obvious disappointment but 3 games is a bit early to be panicking. I don’t know what Arteta is doing changing our system when last year’s was working pretty well. But on his head be it I guess.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I’m confused about your stance.
You are saying that Arteta is a net negative for us, right?
But we got was it our second or third highest PL points total last season.
We missed out on the title only to a side who basically won every game from the World Cup onwards.
Are you suggesting that our team was actually better than City’s and without Arteta we’d have won the PL? Given pre-season expectations that seems pretty unlikely to me.

I’m sure some of your criticisms of Arteta are valid. I’d also suggest that repeating mistakes is a pretty common mistake. God knows Wenger did.

TL;DR, Arteta has his flaws as do all managers. But last season has bought him some good will, despite the disappointing end we massively exceeded expectations. But given last season and the summer spending he’s going to have to deliver this year. I’m concerned about some of the things I’m seeing and hearing about, but ultimately he’s judged on results and so far they’ve been ok. Saturday was an obvious disappointment but 3 games is a bit early to be panicking. I don’t know what Arteta is doing changing our system when last year’s was working pretty well. But on his head be it I guess.

The thing is Letters, even when we had the results earlier this season, everyone was complaining. Its been so different to last season when we started off with the results and the universal praise on the obvious progress made.

Anyway I really hope we get the result against Man U, which can only be a win now, but even then, if we notice the team still remains unbalanced, you're likely to see more complaints.

Its just a shame because this didn't need to be, in fact we still have our destiny in our own hands (as I keep repeating) seeing as we still have all the players that made us tick, so its just insane we find ourselves in this poorly scripted melodrama.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’m confused about your stance.
You are saying that Arteta is a net negative for us, right?
But we got was it our second or third highest PL points total last season.
We missed out on the title only to a side who basically won every game from the World Cup onwards.
Are you suggesting that our team was actually better than City’s and without Arteta we’d have won the PL? Given pre-season expectations that seems pretty unlikely to me.

I’m sure some of your criticisms of Arteta are valid. I’d also suggest that repeating mistakes is a pretty common mistake. God knows Wenger did.

TL;DR, Arteta has his flaws as do all managers. But last season has bought him some good will, despite the disappointing end we massively exceeded expectations. But given last season and the summer spending he’s going to have to deliver this year. I’m concerned about some of the things I’m seeing and hearing about, but ultimately he’s judged on results and so far they’ve been ok. Saturday was an obvious disappointment but 3 games is a bit early to be panicking. I don’t know what Arteta is doing changing our system when last year’s was working pretty well. But on his head be it I guess.


The problem is you’re starting from a flawed assumption. Why should last season have bought him a measure of goodwill. It’s not like we won anything, The points total means nothing. Brendan Rodgers finished 2nd with a high points total for Liverpool but the following season he was nowhere. And it took him being sacked and another four-five years before Liverpool challenged again.

We’ve got to stop thinking of last season as some great achievement, it was bought off the back of a lot of spending and whilst it exceeded what most of us expected from Arteta that’s got more to do with the fact that few of us rate him that highly.

But we and the club owe him nothing, as you know id happily sack him now but that’s more based on what I can see happening rather than what has happened (I still think he should have been sacked less than a year into the job)


I’m fairly confident, that this time next year he won’t be here but ultimately we will see how much of a mess there is to clean up. I’m hoping he gets given his p45 before it gets too bad

[Letters]

Why should last season have bought him a measure of goodwill.
Because of the clear improvement from the previous season. The previous season we'd thrown away a Top 4 finish. Last season for me it was Top 4 or bust. I didn't expect a title challenge, nor did you, nor did anyone.


It’s not like we won anything
That is a not the only measure of a successful season. I mean, ultimately we want to be winning trophies, obviously. But you also want to be seeing a clear direction of travel in terms of improvement.
If we'd won the league cup and finished mid-table no-one would have attended the open top bus parade.


The points total means nothing.
Well of course it does. It's a pretty good metric of where you are as a team.


Brendan Rodgers finished 2nd with a high points total for Liverpool but the following season he was nowhere. And it took him being sacked and another four-five years before Liverpool challenged again.

Well sure, and if we tank under Arteta this season then he should be sacked. I just think it's a bit early to be calling it yet, although I agree with some of your concerns.
I think a difference between us is you think he should be sacked because of the mess that you believe will unfold this season, I think we should at least wait to see as 3 games isn't really sufficient to know.
The board have backed him, he has to deliver. I hope you're wrong about how this season will go. I guess you hope you're wrong too?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Because of the clear improvement from the previous season. The previous season we'd thrown away a Top 4 finish. Last season for me it was Top 4 or bust. I didn't expect a title challenge, nor did you, nor did anyone.


That is a not the only measure of a successful season. I mean, ultimately we want to be winning trophies, obviously. But you also want to be seeing a clear direction of travel in terms of improvement.
If we'd won the league cup and finished mid-table no-one would have attended the open top bus parade.


Well of course it does. It's a pretty good metric of where you are as a team.



Well sure, and if we tank under Arteta this season then he should be sacked. I just think it's a bit early to be calling it yet, although I agree with some of your concerns.
I think a difference between us is you think he should be sacked because of the mess that you believe will unfold this season, I think we should at least wait to see as 3 games isn't really sufficient to know.
The board have backed him, he has to deliver. I hope you're wrong about how this season will go. I guess you hope you're wrong too?


Again you fail to make a distinction between good will and given the season. As I say last season entitled him to no goodwill, nor does it entitle him to see out this season if he makes a bodge of it.

I want him gone come what May, and I say come what may because no one who isn’t delusional thinks we will be champions and I think short of finishing a couple of points behind City after a sustained title challenge…a title or pushing all the way should be what we should be expecting given what he’s spent. That no one expects it, is a) down to the fact that he hasn’t especially spent well and b) no one who should be taken seriously actually rates him that highly.

Do I want us losing games to get rid of him? No, and I hope he’s gone long before it gets to me having to make such a consideration. But it will take us winning the title for me to want him to stay, and it’s not going to happen.

I did concede that last season exceeded our expectations from the start of the season, even though the ending was a total burn out fuckface. But I think that’s as much to do with not expecting Liverpool and Spurs to drop off as much as they did.

The goals we scored and games we won were enjoyable, but that should be where we are continually, not as a one off.

[Letters]

Again you fail to make a distinction between good will and given the season.
I do not understand this sentence.


As I say last season entitled him to no goodwill
Well, you can keep saying that if you like but
a) It's subjective and
b) There was such clear improvement from the previous season, to sack a manager after such a season would be madness.
He certainly earned the right to try again this year.


nor does it entitle him to see out this season if he makes a bodge of it.
Well of course. Managers live or die by results and you're only as good as your last season. Last year showed clear progress, we've invested heavily in the summer so the board have backed him. He has to deliver.


I want him gone come what May, and I say come what may because no one who isn’t delusional thinks we will be champions and I think short of finishing a couple of points behind City after a sustained title challenge…a title or pushing all the way should be what we should be expecting given what he’s spent. That no one expects it, is a) down to the fact that he hasn’t especially spent well and b) no one who should be taken seriously actually rates him that highly.
I think on balance of probabilities you are most likely correct. But to be definitive after 3 games is premature.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I do not understand this sentence.


Well, you can keep saying that if you like but
a) It's subjective and
b) There was such clear improvement from the previous season, to sack a manager after such a season would be madness.
He certainly earned the right to try again this year.


Well of course. Managers live or die by results and you're only as good as your last season. Last year showed clear progress, we've invested heavily in the summer so the board have backed him. He has to deliver.


I think on balance of probabilities you are most likely correct. But to be definitive after 3 games is premature.


Being allowed to start this season as coach is different from having good will. Good will suggests that the manager is in good standing and is given time. If we’d won the league last season I’d be far less concerned with his experimenting because he’d earned himself the time to change things about even if I didn’t agree with those changes. Where as what last season earnt him was a chance to build on last season but it was predicated on him doing the right things in the transfer window which he clearly didn’t do.

My personal preference would be to sack him now, and have a new guy in charge ready for the January transfer window, im not suggesting for a second that’s a realistic aspiration…however if things go as badly as I think they could…he may be gone before the next window.

[IBK]

My tuppence worth...

First, its obvious that too many changes to the team are impacting our cohesion. We stuttered in pre-season, and this is carrying over. Our main issue is conceding goals, and its undoubtedly the case that disrupting our back four - and in particular playing Partey at RB; chopping and changing LBs and leaving Big Gabby on the bench has exacerbated a trend that was well in evidence at the end of last season. Gabby is a real worry - IMO we win Saturday's game if he was on the pitch.

Everyone knows that I am an Arteta defender, but it seems to me that he is sacrificing the team on the altar of Havertz. I would like to see Rice at 8 and Partey back anchoring the MF. I think that the manager has approached our home games so far thinking that they would be easy, and believeing that he can experiment and still take the 3 points. I think that this has transmitted itself to the players and there is no excuse for us conceding within a minute for the third time this year.

We have criticised Arteta for being too galaxy brained in the past - and it seems that this is happening so far this season.

But...in the interests of balance as we saw last season, it's a marathon not a sprint. But for 2 individual errors we would have maximum points so far and I am not going to complain about 'pubbing' teams. The great Citeh did this on the weekend against arguably the weakest team in the league, and the likes of Maunure and Liverpool have done the same. While our manager is stubborn and we can't see what he sees in Havertz, I am not going to write the player off after 3 games.

I do have concerns about the level of angst that Gooners are showing. I haven't been to any home games yet, but I am told that the Emirates is jittery and this is not going to help our team. I respect others' opinions but we exceded expectations last season, and being beaten to the title by probably the best team in world football is not a reason to want shot of Arteta. The teams stats - particularly Xg - are very good this season, and I do not subsrcibe to the view that we are lacking going forwards. We are not as efficient in front of goal as I would like, but we are making chances. The clamour for Trossard to start last weekend looked misplaced given the team's first half performance and shows that we fans can get it wrong.

If we still look this disorganised at Xmas then my opinion will change but for now I will remember that I anticipated some teething problems as this team beds in and will try to remain balanced rather than throwing my toys out of the pram. Early days...

[HCZ_Reborn]

My tuppence worth...

First, its obvious that too many changes to the team are impacting our cohesion. We stuttered in pre-season, and this is carrying over. Our main issue is conceding goals, and its undoubtedly the case that disrupting our back four - and in particular playing Partey at RB; chopping and changing LBs and leaving Big Gabby on the bench has exacerbated a trend that was well in evidence at the end of last season. Gabby is a real worry - IMO we win Saturday's game if he was on the pitch.

Everyone knows that I am an Arteta defender, but it seems to me that he is sacrificing the team on the altar of Havertz. I would like to see Rice at 8 and Partey back anchoring the MF. I think that the manager has approached our home games so far thinking that they would be easy, and believeing that he can experiment and still take the 3 points. I think that this has transmitted itself to the players and there is no excuse for us conceding within a minute for the third time this year.

We have criticised Arteta for being too galaxy brained in the past - and it seems that this is happening so far this season.

But...in the interests of balance as we saw last season, it's a marathon not a sprint. But for 2 individual errors we would have maximum points so far and I am not going to complain about 'pubbing' teams. The great Citeh did this on the weekend against arguably the weakest team in the league, and the likes of Maunure and Liverpool have done the same. While our manager is stubborn and we can't see what he sees in Havertz, I am not going to write the player off after 3 games.

I do have concerns about the level of angst that Gooners are showing. I haven't been to any home games yet, but I am told that the Emirates is jittery and this is not going to help our team. I respect others' opinions but we exceded expectations last season, and being beaten to the title by probably the best team in world football is not a reason to want shot of Arteta. The teams stats - particularly Xg - are very good this season, and I do not subsrcibe to the view that we are lacking going forwards. We are not as efficient in front of goal as I would like, but we are making chances. The clamour for Trossard to start last weekend looked misplaced given the team's first half performance and shows that we fans can get it wrong.

If we still look this disorganised at Xmas then my opinion will change but for now I will remember that I anticipated some teething problems as this team beds in and will try to remain balanced rather than throwing my toys out of the pram. Early days...


I have to say I disagree that defending is our main problem, it’s goal scoring. I think it shows what a completely pointless stat XG is if our XG is higher than the first three games of last season (which it apparently is) but when you have nine goals scored last season, and five scored this season (two of them penalties) then it shows that XG is not a particularly great indicator, it’s based on how attacking moves have led to goals based on past instances but the problem is a) if the players themselves aren’t taken the shots on which they aren’t and b) if our attacking moves have become predictable…then our high XG gives a misleading indicator of our attacking potency.

Defence is a concern but I think the goals we concede are a mixture of systemic issues….we concede goals at home because of the tendency to push up, and Gabriel who though a great defender isn’t as comfortable on the ball to push forward is being dropped in favour of white and Saliba and individual errors…there is a high tendency for teams to break on us with pace where under pressing we have a tendency to play casual passes that are seized upon. Partey as much as I rate him is often guilty of this, but the two offenders on Saturday were Saka for the first goal, and Zinchenko for the second.

In terms of winning aerial battles, interceptions etc…the defending is decent. But the problem is we either have defensive midfielders or attacking midfielders and we don’t have the player that links this up. As much as he gave me a headache, Xhaka was this player last season but now we are putting Havertz in that role and despite his claim that central midfield is his preferred position (I even understand he did play there for Bayer Leverkusen) it’s clear that it’s not a role he can play in the premier league where you are not given the time or space that he seems to need.

His hold up play and his aerial ability means that I would play him as alternating between in the hole and as a second striker especially given Odegaard has not had the most auspicious start to the season. Havertz clearly played better in a more offensive role against Manchester City.

My fervour for wanting Arteta gone is because this season and the pre season before it reminds me of all his worst habbits as a coach - namely being Galaxy brained and playing systems the players cannot adapt to, that and signing players who don’t fit well with us…a few years ago it was Willian and this season Havertz. And I feel we’ve spent too much money (something I think is going to bite us very hard, very soon) for us to humour a coach who seems to take far too long to acknowledge what he’s getting wrong.

[Mac76]

Being allowed to start this season as coach is different from having good will. Good will suggests that the manager is in good standing and is given time. If we’d won the league last season I’d be far less concerned with his experimenting because he’d earned himself the time to change things about even if I didn’t agree with those changes. Where as what last season earnt him was a chance to build on last season but it was predicated on him doing the right things in the transfer window which he clearly didn’t do.

My personal preference would be to sack him now, and have a new guy in charge ready for the January transfer window, im not suggesting for a second that’s a realistic aspiration…however if things go as badly as I think they could…he may be gone before the next window.

Ok, so I agree but feel obliged to throw your own question back at you, aimed at me when I said he should go at the end of last season: with whom would you replace him?

[Mac76]

My tuppence worth...

First, its obvious that too many changes to the team are impacting our cohesion. We stuttered in pre-season, and this is carrying over. Our main issue is conceding goals, and its undoubtedly the case that disrupting our back four - and in particular playing Partey at RB; chopping and changing LBs and leaving Big Gabby on the bench has exacerbated a trend that was well in evidence at the end of last season. Gabby is a real worry - IMO we win Saturday's game if he was on the pitch.

Everyone knows that I am an Arteta defender, but it seems to me that he is sacrificing the team on the altar of Havertz. I would like to see Rice at 8 and Partey back anchoring the MF. I think that the manager has approached our home games so far thinking that they would be easy, and believeing that he can experiment and still take the 3 points. I think that this has transmitted itself to the players and there is no excuse for us conceding within a minute for the third time this year.

We have criticised Arteta for being too galaxy brained in the past - and it seems that this is happening so far this season.

But...in the interests of balance as we saw last season, it's a marathon not a sprint. But for 2 individual errors we would have maximum points so far and I am not going to complain about 'pubbing' teams. The great Citeh did this on the weekend against arguably the weakest team in the league, and the likes of Maunure and Liverpool have done the same. While our manager is stubborn and we can't see what he sees in Havertz, I am not going to write the player off after 3 games.

I do have concerns about the level of angst that Gooners are showing. I haven't been to any home games yet, but I am told that the Emirates is jittery and this is not going to help our team. I respect others' opinions but we exceded expectations last season, and being beaten to the title by probably the best team in world football is not a reason to want shot of Arteta. The teams stats - particularly Xg - are very good this season, and I do not subsrcibe to the view that we are lacking going forwards. We are not as efficient in front of goal as I would like, but we are making chances. The clamour for Trossard to start last weekend looked misplaced given the team's first half performance and shows that we fans can get it wrong.

If we still look this disorganised at Xmas then my opinion will change but for now I will remember that I anticipated some teething problems as this team beds in and will try to remain balanced rather than throwing my toys out of the pram. Early days...

Where you say "The clamour for Trossard to start last weekend looked misplaced given the team's first half performance and shows that we fans can get it wrong"

We wanted him to play but not as a striker, he's better playing around a central striker, so removing Eddie, who is actually showing some good form, is exactly what Arteta shouldn't have done, Trossard should have been in for Havertz - and it should certainly have been Havertz who was subbed ahead of Trossard at HT

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ok, so I agree but feel obliged to throw your own question back at you, aimed at me when I said he should go at the end of last season: with whom would you replace him?

It’s a valid question, as to whether there is someone better out there who can say. But I think it’s not so much that we need a better coach, it’s a coach who will just go back to basics, stop trying to be too clever and do what needs to be done.

We could bring Emery back for that, or the Wop at Brighton.

When I asked you the question I foolishly assumed that where we were that season meant that Arteta had moved beyond silly behaviour that was costing us. So a better coach now becomes anyone who a) isn’t putting square pegs in round holes and b) identifies signings in positions where we need them

[mandela8]

My tuppence worth...

First, its obvious that too many changes to the team are impacting our cohesion. We stuttered in pre-season, and this is carrying over. Our main issue is conceding goals, and its undoubtedly the case that disrupting our back four - and in particular playing Partey at RB; chopping and changing LBs and leaving Big Gabby on the bench has exacerbated a trend that was well in evidence at the end of last season. Gabby is a real worry - IMO we win Saturday's game if he was on the pitch.

Everyone knows that I am an Arteta defender, but it seems to me that he is sacrificing the team on the altar of Havertz. I would like to see Rice at 8 and Partey back anchoring the MF. I think that the manager has approached our home games so far thinking that they would be easy, and believeing that he can experiment and still take the 3 points. I think that this has transmitted itself to the players and there is no excuse for us conceding within a minute for the third time this year.

We have criticised Arteta for being too galaxy brained in the past - and it seems that this is happening so far this season.

But...in the interests of balance as we saw last season, it's a marathon not a sprint. But for 2 individual errors we would have maximum points so far and I am not going to complain about 'pubbing' teams. The great Citeh did this on the weekend against arguably the weakest team in the league, and the likes of Maunure and Liverpool have done the same. While our manager is stubborn and we can't see what he sees in Havertz, I am not going to write the player off after 3 games.

I do have concerns about the level of angst that Gooners are showing. I haven't been to any home games yet, but I am told that the Emirates is jittery and this is not going to help our team. I respect others' opinions but we exceded expectations last season, and being beaten to the title by probably the best team in world football is not a reason to want shot of Arteta. The teams stats - particularly Xg - are very good this season, and I do not subsrcibe to the view that we are lacking going forwards. We are not as efficient in front of goal as I would like, but we are making chances. The clamour for Trossard to start last weekend looked misplaced given the team's first half performance and shows that we fans can get it wrong.

If we still look this disorganised at Xmas then my opinion will change but for now I will remember that I anticipated some teething problems as this team beds in and will try to remain balanced rather than throwing my toys out of the pram. Early days...

Nice reasoned post, mate.

Couple of issues...which kinda tie into one.

I wanted Trossard to play. I think he's comfortably the best winger we have at the club and can offer a consistency that the younger players demonstrably can't. I didn't for one second want him playing as a striker though ha that's just typical of Arteta, playing someone out of position.

This kinda plays into the wider issue of us scoring goals. It's quite the paradox that we actually score a lot of goals without ever really looking like we're going to score.

There's just issues up there for me. Saka cutting inside almost Everytime, slowing the play down (he's actually quite successful when he gets to the byeline anaw). Martinelli just being isolated completely and the lack of a clinical striker.

I think defending is largely fine...although there's a high prevalence of individual errors.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Where you say "The clamour for Trossard to start last weekend looked misplaced given the team's first half performance and shows that we fans can get it wrong"

We wanted him to play but not as a striker, he's better playing around a central striker, so removing Eddie, who is actually showing some good form, is exactly what Arteta shouldn't have done, Trossard should have been in for Havertz - and it should certainly have been Havertz who was subbed ahead of Trossard at HT

Spot on.

I was about to reply to that part of his post, but thankfully your response assures me that I wasn't watching a different game.

Also, despite actively sabotaging Trossard by playing him out of position, we could still see his impact as the pace of the 1st half is the fastest we've played all season and he did manage to create some of the best chances in the whole game from the wing (have we forgotten Saka's pitiful header, though if I remember correctly Agent Kai was jumping infront of him like some newly plucked chicken!).

[mandela8]

Spot on.

I was about to reply to that part of his post, but thankfully your response assures me that I wasn't watching a different game.

Also, despite actively sabotaging Trossard by playing him out of position, we could still see his impact as the pace of the 1st half is the fastest we've played all season and he did manage to create some of the best chances in the whole game from the wing (have we forgotten Saka's pitiful header, though if I remember correctly Agent Kai was jumping infront of him like some newly plucked chicken!).
People really wanting trossard in CM??

Nah, not sure about that, man.

Get him out wide for one of Martinelli or Saka. I don't even care which one, at this point. It's not working for either and they need to know they're not undroppable.

Viera must've played himself into a start. That's as good a sub appearneces as you'll see all season. Not just his output but I really liked how assertive he was, taking set pieces off people. You can tell the other players, who see him in training every day hold him in high regard, even if he hasn't consistently shown it. Plus, what kind of message does it send to the fringe players that when your chance comes you can take it then still be on the bench??

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I have to say I disagree that defending is our main problem, it’s goal scoring. I think it shows what a completely pointless stat XG is if our XG is higher than the first three games of last season (which it apparently is) but when you have nine goals scored last season, and five scored this season (two of them penalties) then it shows that XG is not a particularly great indicator, it’s based on how attacking moves have led to goals based on past instances but the problem is a) if the players themselves aren’t taken the shots on which they aren’t and b) if our attacking moves have become predictable…then our high XG gives a misleading indicator of our attacking potency.



I think you are interpreting the XG concept wrong. Its more about efficiency, and if our XG in the last few games was higher than last season then it is clear that we are on a serious downward spiral, since we scored less goals compared to the same period last season.

Lets look at Saturday's game for example, XG suggests we should have at least scored 3 goals, the penalty is almost an XG score of 1, the next best chance would probably be the Saka header I mentioned earlier, Nketiah's goal and Havertz defensive Karate Kick were probably 0.4ish x 2. So already we practically have 3.

Fulham had an XG of 0.55, and lets face it, they had no business scoring their first goal and even their second goal had all our defenders in place. So, they outperformed their XG which is what all decent teams do.

In fact if you are a betting man like me you'll know that most decent teams outperform their XG by *2. Athletico recently beat Vallecano 7-0 away, and their XG was just a bit higher than us on Saturday @ 3.6, so even without watching the highlights I know I should expect some long range shots and pretty good goals; or some horrendous defensive errors.

In short, our current XG (for and against us) just shows we are underperforming by not utilising easy chances, and also allowing defensive errors to cost us.

I think this defines what we are currently witnessing.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

It’s a valid question, as to whether there is someone better out there who can say. But I think it’s not so much that we need a better coach, it’s a coach who will just go back to basics, stop trying to be too clever and do what needs to be done.

We could bring Emery back for that, or the Wop at Brighton.

When I asked you the question I foolishly assumed that where we were that season meant that Arteta had moved beyond silly behaviour that was costing us. So a better coach now becomes anyone who a) isn’t putting square pegs in round holes and b) identifies signings in positions where we need them

On a lighter note, good to see you making some personal progress.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

People really wanting trossard in CM??

Nah, not sure about that, man.

Get him out wide for one of Martinelli or Saka. I don't even care which one, at this point. It's not working for either and they need to know they're not undroppable.

Viera must've played himself into a start. That's as good a sub appearneces as you'll see all season. Not just his output but I really liked how assertive he was, taking set pieces off people. You can tell the other players, who see him in training every day hold him in high regard, even if he hasn't consistently shown it. Plus, what kind of message does it send to the fringe players that when your chance comes you can take it then still be on the bench??

My bad, it was the first part of his post I'm fully behind. In my mind their is little doubt that his best position is the left wing. At a time I did think we could play him in the Xhaka role, but with the way we play under Arteta I am not that sure anymore.

Anyway I believe on current form he should be starting over Martinelli.

[Mac76]

My bad, it was the first part of his post I'm fully behind. In my mind their is little doubt that his best position is the left wing. At a time I did think we could play him in the Xhaka role, but with the way we play under Arteta I am not that sure anymore.

Anyway I believe on current form he should be starting over Martinelli.

Fair enough i think Trossard can do a better job than Havertz in the 8 position (though i get that's not hard, so could a lamppost) but agree ideally he's on the wing - I remain a big fan of Martinelli and still think he doesn't get given the ball enough but sure I've no objection to Trossard being started instead of Martinelli sometimes, but on no account should Havertz be starting

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fair enough i think Trossard can do a better job than Havertz in the 8 position (though i get that's not hard, so could a lamppost) but agree ideally he's on the wing - I remain a big fan of Martinelli and still think he doesn't get given the ball enough but sure I've no objection to Trossard being started instead of Martinelli sometimes, but on no account should Havertz be starting

That’s where I disagree, for sure I wouldn’t have him in the no8 role but neither Nketiah or Jesus can play in the lone striker role and they can’t play together. So my feeling is to drop Odegaard and play Havertz as a roaming second striker.

No 8 role for United? Vieira not good enough defensively so thinking Partey in that role and Jorginho in the no6 role

[Mac76]

That’s where I disagree, for sure I wouldn’t have him in the no8 role but neither Nketiah or Jesus can play in the lone striker role and they can’t play together. So my feeling is to drop Odegaard and play Havertz as a roaming second striker.

No 8 role for United? Vieira not good enough defensively so thinking Partey in that role and Jorginho in the no6 role

You clearly didn't see Havertz' performance on Saturday - it was beyond awful and that includes when he had opportunities to score - he's no good to us in any position - Eddie is doing better than Havertz would and while I've been a big critic of his think he deserves to start - Havertz cannot justify a further start in midfield when we have players like Trossard, Vieira etc

[HCZ_Reborn]

You clearly didn't see Havertz' performance on Saturday - it was beyond awful and that includes when he had opportunities to score - he's no good to us in any position - Eddie is doing better than Havertz would and while I've been a big critic of his think he deserves to start - Havertz cannot justify a further start in midfield when we have players like Trossard, Vieira etc


Are you my brother in disguise?. He doesn’t like the fact that Ive stated Caicedo is miles better than Rice, so has decided to write Caicedo off based on his awful debut in the West Ham game. As I’ve said Havertz has been awful, I don’t think he is…well he is as a number 8

Yes I saw him on Saturday and he was awful. How many times do I have to explain to you, I still think he could be a very useful player for us played in the correct position…you don’t.

He’s not playing in midfield he’d be playing in the hole, behind the striker. I don’t see that as a midfield position.

I’ve explained why I think we’d be better off playing him, you don’t have to agree but I think given the unbelievable decision not to sign a striker, it’s best to play him alongside (or more importantly behind) Nketiah.

[IBK]

Nice reasoned post, mate.

Couple of issues...which kinda tie into one.

I wanted Trossard to play. I think he's comfortably the best winger we have at the club and can offer a consistency that the younger players demonstrably can't. I didn't for one second want him playing as a striker though ha that's just typical of Arteta, playing someone out of position.

This kinda plays into the wider issue of us scoring goals. It's quite the paradox that we actually score a lot of goals without ever really looking like we're going to score.

There's just issues up there for me. Saka cutting inside almost Everytime, slowing the play down (he's actually quite successful when he gets to the byeline anaw). Martinelli just being isolated completely and the lack of a clinical striker.

I think defending is largely fine...although there's a high prevalence of individual errors.

Yes - I get what you and HCZ are saying about scoring, but at the end of the day we have scored 5 in 3 games which is no disaster going forwards. 2 pels yes - but they all count. Last season was (I think) our best ever for goals scored in the EPL - and that was without our first striker for half the season. We have the same attacking personnel (almost) as we had, and that is why I am not greatly concerned about our play going forwards. It's our profligacy in front of goal that I have more of an issue with - we are creating the chances - as the stats bear out.

But in defence - we have now had many months of shooting ourselves in the foot, and particulary at home we are far too easy to score against. Arteta has exacerbated this by disrupting our back 4. I'm all for being unpredictable but hs experimentation so far this season has affected the defensive stability that is key to any success. For me, the sheer number of individual errors we make are worrying because they point to systemic or mentality failings - and my concern is that by his insistence on having Swiss army knife players the manager is neglecting key building blocks such as having at least some specialist players in certain positions along the spine of the team.

As to all the comments regarding Trossard - fair enough - and on reflection I agree that it was contrary to play arguably our best player in pre season out of the position he had performed so well in.

I guess that the debate re Arteta depends upon how long we are prepared to give him using unconventional methods. As I say I predicted some turbulence so I am prepared to wait to see if things click. One thing I am encouraged about is that his subs have largely been spot on this season - that suggests he is aware of the issues that are frustrating fans and can see how to solve them in game. I think that for all of us - Citeh is messing with our heads - as utter perfection is required in every game if we are to compete. Our other rivals are hardly showing huge consistency in their approaches - late goals notwithstanding.

[IBK]

You clearly didn't see Havertz' performance on Saturday - it was beyond awful and that includes when he had opportunities to score - he's no good to us in any position - Eddie is doing better than Havertz would and while I've been a big critic of his think he deserves to start - Havertz cannot justify a further start in midfield when we have players like Trossard, Vieira etc

Havertz may come good - I don't think its fair to write him off just yet. But starting him against Manure would be a big mistake IMO.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Havertz may come good - I don't think its fair to write him off just yet. But starting him against Manure would be a big mistake IMO.

Fair enough. I just happen to think given we lack a striker with the ability to play up front by themselves…it helps to have someone like Havertz there (like Giroud he holds up the ball well)

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Fair enough i think Trossard can do a better job than Havertz in the 8 position (though i get that's not hard, so could a lamppost) but agree ideally he's on the wing - I remain a big fan of Martinelli and still think he doesn't get given the ball enough but sure I've no objection to Trossard being started instead of Martinelli sometimes, but on no account should Havertz be starting

Fully agree with this post.

No one is saying Havertz should never play for the club again, but from what we have witnessed he has no business starting ahead of any of our squad players for now ( this includes the likes of Smith-Rowe and Nelson).

He can come in as a sub when we are winning a game with a 3-0 lead (that's if those days ever occur again).

[Mac76]

my concern is that by his insistence on having Swiss army knife players the manager is neglecting key building blocks such as having at least some specialist players in certain positions along the spine of the team.


This, though I'd go further and say his dislike of specialist fullbacks is also really hurting us

[HCZ_Reborn]

This, though I'd go further and say his dislike of specialist fullbacks is also really hurting us

Kind of academic at this point, as we have no specialist fullbacks left.

[Mac76]

Kind of academic at this point, as we have no specialist fullbacks left.

Wrong (episode #34,545,767)

If he hadn't decided to freeze out Tierney we would be patently better off as a team

[HCZ_Reborn]

Wrong (episode #34,545,767)

If he hadn't decided to freeze out Tierney we would be patently better off as a team

Imagine not understanding what the word Academic means in this context. But we know from the currents btw page that understanding the meaning of words is not your speciality

It’s saying yes you’re right, but it doesn’t change anything because we don’t have the ability to field specialist full backs even if Arteta acknowledged their usefulness

[Mac76]

Imagine not understanding what the word Academic means in this context. But we know from the currents btw page that understanding the meaning of words is not your speciality

It’s saying yes you’re right, but it doesn’t change anything because we don’t have the ability to field specialist full backs even if Arteta acknowledged their usefulness

yes we do because Tierney is a specialist fullback and the only reason we sent him on loan is because Arteta doesn't like fullbacks, therefore Arteta's dislike of FBs has made us worse off and is hurting us, which is what i said

do you get it now?

[HCZ_Reborn]

yes we do because Tierney is a specialist fullback and the only reason we sent him on loan is because Arteta doesn't like fullbacks, therefore Arteta's dislike of FBs has made us worse off and is hurting us, which is what i said

do you get it now?


Do you get how it’s academic in that it’s happened now and even if Arteta suddenly had a lightbulb moment it wouldn’t make a sod of difference.

You chose to make an argument about it, where all I said is yes you’re right but it’s academic now. But because your poorly wired brain has an overactive threat sensor when it comes to people not agreeing with you, you chose to make an issue of it.

So you tell me, Is it lack of comprehension or amygdala issues. Given that you’ve tended to jump on my responses without having taken the time to properly read them a few times of late I’ll go with the latter.

[Mac76]

Do you get how it’s academic in that it’s happened now and even if Arteta suddenly had a lightbulb moment it wouldn’t make a sod of difference.

You chose to make an argument about it, where all I said is yes you’re right but it’s academic now. But because your poorly wired brain has an overactive threat sensor when it comes to people not agreeing with you, you chose to make an issue of it.

So you tell me, Is it lack of comprehension or amygdala issues. Given that you’ve tended to jump on my responses without having taken the time to properly read them a few times of late I’ll go with the latter.

I'm not questioning your use of the word academic as such, what i am saying is that you are incorrect to say we don't have any FBs - we do have one but he has just been sent out on loan - loan deals can be cancelled

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'm not questioning your use of the word academic as such, what i am saying is that you are incorrect to say we don't have any FBs - we do have one but he has just been sent out on loan - loan deals can be cancelled

Erm you realise loan agreements tend to have contracts governing them so that we can’t just recall a player from loan on a whim. I don’t think “I suddenly rediscovered my faith in the traditional fullback role” counts

We have Tavares but ultimately we really need to be getting in money for him

[IBK]

I like Tierney, but I feel that he doesn't have the technical ability to do what the manager wants, so it is best that he leaves. It's a valid question to ask whether Arteta's wishes for this team are the best way to go, but as matters stand Tierney did not suit our way of playing and I am happy for him that he has gone to a CL team.

More generally, I think that the loss of Timber has been a hammer blow to our prospects. Aretta is clearly trying to work around this, but my concern is that rather than altering his approach to get the best out of certain players, he is stubbornly sticking to a plan that only really worked with a player now out for the season.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well there goes 2 of the 6 points required.