The Arsenal v Man Ure, Sunday 3 September 2023, 16.30

[Mac76]

0-3 Fernandes hatter

We might as well get this going, as it seems to me like this is not just another Arsenal v Man Ure match, but a real weather vane for the season.

Arteta has to change things drastically - by which I mean just play a sensible team and formation - his follies so far have meant we've been a hard watch, scraped a couple of wins but then failed to beat a side down to ten men at home. I should be looking forward to this game - last season I was - but not this time

While ETH's Moan U are not perfect you only have to look at how they came back from 2-0 down last week to understand the threat - I don't think we could ever do that with the current lineup and formation and tactics Arteta is employing

If we carry on how we are we will at best draw though my money would probably be on a defeat

Now Arteta has offloaded all our LBs we are in a right pickle in that position as i simply refuse to accept it makes any sense whatsoever to play Zin there - he cannot defend and caused the draw in the Fulham game - so I guess it has to still be Kiwior who isn't perfect but at least not a suicide bomb like Zin

Eddie has done enough to merit a start with Jesus on the bench to be a chaos player later on if needed

So maybe this:

Ram

White Saliba Gabriel Kiwior

Rice

Odegaard Vieira Trossard

Saka Eddie Martinelli

[HCZ_Reborn]

Team I’d play


Ramsdale, Kiwior, Gabriel, Saliba, Tomoyasu, Jorginho, Partey, Vieira (I’d rather play Havertz but think too big a risk), Trossard, Saka, Nketiah


Drop Martinelli, Drop Odegaard, Drop Rice, Drop White (especially given how badly he did when he came up against Rashford in this game in January)



Given I don’t expect Arteta to do any of the above, I think United will break their can’t win away at a top six issue that bedevilled us for so long and get a 2-0 win here. Don’t think there is enough variety or conviction in our attack to get goals and we will set up to concede on the break.

[Marc Overmars]

United are not very good away from home so we should be confident of getting a result.

I feel like the dull opponents we’ve had to start has also contributed to the insipid displays but I expect to see a much better showing here given the step up in calibre.

If we lose this then I would be very concerned at the trajectory we’re going to be heading in over the next few games which aren’t favourable fixtures.

[Letters]

weather vain
"vane", tbh


:run:

[Mac76]

"vane", tbh


:run:

I had a feeling that wasn't right :lol:

[Mac76]

Team I’d play


Ramsdale, Kiwior, Gabriel, Saliba, Tomoyasu, Jorginho, Partey, Vieira (I’d rather play Havertz but think too big a risk), Trossard, Saka, Nketiah


Drop Martinelli, Drop Odegaard, Drop Rice, Drop White (especially given how badly he did when he came up against Rashford in this game in January)



Given I don’t expect Arteta to do any of the above, I think United will break their can’t win away at a top six issue that bedevilled us for so long and get a 2-0 win here. Don’t think there is enough variety or conviction in our attack to get goals and we will set up to concede on the break.

I agree some of the players you mention dropping need to up their game (though not Rice) but you can see the difference Vieira made when he came on and i think Trossard, if played not as a striker but in support will have a similar effect and they should be able to get better performances out of people - I suspect Havertz' presence was at least part of the reason Martinelli struggled tbh

[HCZ_Reborn]

I agree some of the players you mention dropping need to up their game (though not Rice) but you can see the difference Vieira made when he came on and i think Trossard, if played not as a striker but in support will have a similar effect and they should be able to get better performances out of people - I suspect Havertz' presence was at least part of the reason Martinelli struggled tbh


It’s not about whether Rice plays well or not, it’s about how much he’s contributing and he’s not. It’s not his fault, we just absolutely don’t need him. We as I said somewhere else needed cover for Partey and Rice is just too inferior for that and it’s sadly not even close …If we play most teams away from home we sit deep enough that we don’t concede much so don’t need him, and at home he hasn’t got the pace to break up play on the counter.

I don’t know if I agree about Havertz bringing down the play of those around him, Odegaard it’s just not coming off for him…he’s trying too hard almost and then he gets frustrated and goes hiding. Martinelli is not doing enough when he does get the ball.

There has to be some reckoning for that and not just scapegoating one single player who is being played hideously out of position.

[Mac76]

It’s not about whether Rice plays well or not, it’s about how much he’s contributing and he’s not. It’s not his fault, we just absolutely don’t need him. We as I said somewhere else needed cover for Partey and Rice is just too inferior for that and it’s sadly not even close …If we play most teams away from home we sit deep enough that we don’t concede much so don’t need him, and at home he hasn’t got the pace to break up play on the counter.

I don’t know if I agree about Havertz bringing down the play of those around him, Odegaard it’s just not coming off for him…he’s trying too hard almost and then he gets frustrated and goes hiding. Martinelli is not doing enough when he does get the ball.

There has to be some reckoning for that and not just scapegoating one single player who is being played hideously out of position.

Your views on Rice continue to defy those of pretty much everyone else who watches him and yes I'm going to talk again about people who go to the game

Partey can be good but is unreliable and injury-prone

as for the comments on Odegaard / Martinelli yes I agree, but I think Havertz was getting in Martinelli's way a bit

As I've said before, it's not just about Havertz' position, overall he is slow to get to the ball and slow to react when he receives it, he looks like he's lost whatever pace he had, it happens sometimes

As for Odegaard, he looks really pissed off these days, it's pure conjecture on my part but I wonder whether, now Arteta's got his new toys in Havertz and Rice, maybe Odegaard feels sidelined, I don't know, we've already seen him and Rice arguing on the pitch and I wonder whether Rice as former West Ham captain is throwing his weight around on the training ground also

[mandela8]

So maybe this:

Ram

White Saliba Gabriel Kiwior

Rice

Odegaard Vieira Trossard

Saka Eddie Martinelli
12 men is a great idea, tbf.

Not sure why we've not tried it before.

[Mac76]

12 men is a great idea, tbf.

Not sure why we've not tried it before.

i was waiting for someone to spot my deliberate mistake :whistle:

[Mac76]

I've taken Martinelli out as maybe he does need a rest and I'd like to see Trossard on the left wing

[mandela8]

If we're picking line ups I'd like to see...


Raya

Tommyiasu Saliba Gabriel

Partey

Odegaard Viera

Jesus Nketiah Trossard


I'm going with 10 men as I think it's a better option than our left back offerings. But I guess if forced zinchenko gets the undeserved nod.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Your views on Rice continue to defy those of pretty much everyone else who watches him and yes I'm going to talk again about people who go to the game

Partey can be good but is unreliable and injury-prone

as for the comments on Odegaard / Martinelli yes I agree, but I think Havertz was getting in Martinelli's way a bit

As I've said before, it's not just about Havertz' position, overall he is slow to get to the ball and slow to react when he receives it, he looks like he's lost whatever pace he had, it happens sometimes

As for Odegaard, he looks really pissed off these days, it's pure conjecture on my part but I wonder whether, now Arteta's got his new toys in Havertz and Rice, maybe Odegaard feels sidelined, I don't know, we've already seen him and Rice arguing on the pitch and I wonder whether Rice as former West Ham captain is throwing his weight around on the training ground also


And I’ve said most football fans are morons, they see a player running around a lot like he’s Frank Lampard and therefore they make the mistaken assumption that they are seeing someone who is actually contributing. What they are failing to see is how Rice slows down our attacks because the ball is coming to him and he lacks either the pace or the range of passing to set things up quickly, so instead he does these little Hollywood bursts and shoots on goal for a keeper to make an equally Hollywood save, it’s all very impressive but it doesn’t actually achieve anything.

Odegaard is unhappy because Rice despite his footballing limitations is a better leader on the pitch than him. No one who isnt suffering from blunt force trauma or psychosis would ever think to have made him captain to begin with. As for Havertz, If you were playing central midfield despite being an attacker you’d be slow as well because your brain is trying to orientate you on whether you need to pass the ball or move forward with it. Like I say it’s easy to blame one player for the feeble performances of others.

Partey can be unreliable and injury prone. But in terms of raw ability, it’s not just that he’s better than Rice…it’s that they aren’t even in the same league. Rice is Elneny with a bit more athleticism, but not enough or anywhere enough technical ability to be useful to us.
He hasn’t had a bad game for us, because he’s a hard worker. But hard work on its own will not bridge the gap when there’s a yawning chasm of talent between him and Jorginho let alone him and Partey. Simpleton fans see the price tag and the Hollywood cameos and they probably think he’s world class

[Mac76]

And I’ve said most football fans are morons, they see a player running around a lot like he’s Frank Lampard and therefore they make the mistaken assumption that they are seeing someone who is actually contributing.

Sounds like what I say about people who like Zin :lol:

I love Jorg and would happily see him start in any game tbh but I think Rice joins up the team well and some of his cross-field and forward passing is in a very high class

I thing people are a bit myopic on Partey, it sounds like i dislike him but i don't at all, I just see inconsistency and inury-proness. He's had some awful games for us

[HCZ_Reborn]

Actually maybe comparing him to Elneny is harsh, but at absolute best he’s Gilberto(and I think that’s massively harsh on Gilberto) and Gilberto didn’t work without Vieira and we don’t have a Vieira (correction we have a Vieira, it’s just he’s a malnourished waste of space), I like Partey but he’s no Vieira different type of player.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sounds like what I say about people who like Zin :lol:

I love Jorg and would happily see him start in any game tbh but I think Rice joins up the team well and some of his cross-field and forward passing is in a very high class

I thing people are a bit myopic on Partey, it sounds like i dislike him but i don't at all, I just see inconsistency and inury-proness. He's had some awful games for us


It’s not at all, because I don’t think Rice is shit but I’m just being realistic of his ability level. Partey is inconsistent because he’s playing out of position but he was the midfield engine room last season…he was the conduit through which everything flowed and to do that you need to be able to have some technical ability. Rice is ok at short passing, or short bursts of acceleration…he’s also a good tackler on the ball but we don’t need that….certainly not if that player can’t do anything to prevent counter attacks. Rice clearly has a decent footballing brain, but when his legs are not capable of the level of acceleration or physical coordination required it’s all for nothing.

You can’t play for Arsenal being as limited as Rice is as a player and expect anything good to come from it. His attitude and work rate are unimpeachable. I wish everyone starting for Arsenal had his level of professionalism. But he will never be more than bang average, that’s not been good enough for England and it sure as hell won’t be good enough for us

[Mac76]

If you think Rice is slow, just take a look at Havertz and yet you think he should keep his place in the side

Rice can - and does - also play longer passes it's not just short passing

[HCZ_Reborn]

If you think Rice is slow, just take a look at Havertz and yet you think he should keep his place in the side

Rice can - and does - also play longer passes it's not just short passing



Jorginho is slow, but he’s technically good

Havertz I wouldn’t agree is slow, he has been slow because he’s playing out of position and it’s going to take half a second longer to process what he needs to do. I’m not saying he was a good purchase, but no sense in totally writing him off until he actually gets a chance to play in a position where he can be of use to us


Being able to play one 40 yard pass every other game does not make you an accomplished passer. As I’ve said repeatedly of Rice, he’s got a quick brain so he will always come up trumps statistically because he can do the absolute basics very well.

But I keep stressing this, we don’t need someone to do the basics well…we have that covered. What we need is someone who is able to intercept when the game is stretched, can win the ball deep and carry it forward under high pressing, can find players with an excellent range of passing or have the acceleration to carry it forward himself. We identified that player in January, it was Moises Caicedo. That we allowed him to go to Chelsea pursuing Rice is in my view a sackable offence in of itself. It’s squandering our potential through misallocation of funds. On a player we didn’t need, doesn’t in anyway improve us and lacks what we need to be of any real value to us

[HCZ_Reborn]

To be honest I think people are only lying to themselves when they refute what I’m saying, they know what I’m saying is true but because of the money spent and the likelihood that it’s completely fucked us in the short term…they’ll pretend it’s not.

Havertz also a large amount of money spent to no good purchase but there hasn’t been the hype around him there was around signing Rice and people don’t want to accept that it can never be matched…then they are going to be stuck.


If Havertz is played up front or in the hole for a run of a few games and continues to be poor, I’ll at least pony up and say he’s hopeless.

[Mac76]

to answer both your posts:

I agree we should have got Caicedo instead but I'm not allowing Rice's price tag to prejudice me agianst him and whether he adds something or not and i think he does.

As for doing the basics, we need someone other than Zin to try to connect play up in the middle, as Zin blatantly can't do the basics and keeps giving the ball away - over time I was hoping Timber and Rice between them would convince Arteta to give up his Zin obsession ut with Timber injured i guess that's not happening

Havertz is the one who adds nothing except in terms of being another player that Arteta will now persist with because he's tied his reputation to him - how many of these do we need?

Havertz was kind of playing up front at times on Saturday and completely messed up every opportunity.

I too am a fan of Jorg and I think we will see him play a bit in various competitions

[HCZ_Reborn]

to answer both your posts:

I agree we should have got Caicedo instead but I'm not allowing Rice's price tag to prejudice me agianst him and whether he adds something or not and i think he does.

As for doing the basics, we need someone other than Zin to try to connect play up in the middle, as Zin blatantly can't do the basics and keeps giving the ball away - over time I was hoping Timber and Rice between them would convince Arteta to give up his Zin obsession ut with Timber injured i guess that's not happening

Havertz is the one who adds nothing except in terms of being another player that Arteta will now persist with because he's tied his reputation to him - how many of these do we need?

Havertz was kind of playing up front at times on Saturday and completely messed up every opportunity.

I too am a fan of Jorg and I think we will see him play a bit in various competitions


I think this is going to go round and round. I honestly don’t know what you’re seeing with Rice. I could just debase this conversation by going on about how you saw Xhaka being a teachers pet but I don’t think that’s necessary.

Connect play up in the middle? He can’t do that. He’s not quick enough or technical enough. I’m not saying that to be spiteful but it’s just the case. Jorginho has the range of passing and Partey can potentially carry the ball forward so in reality you want Partey playing at no 8 Sunday.

You would then bring on Rice if we were leading and need someone to tidy things up


I don’t know with Havertz, he hasn’t admittedly offered anything so far but although there were better and cheaper options for this, what he offers that no one else does is he can hold up the ball (and he did so against city) and he can offer more aerial threat than Jesus or Edward.


I think Chelsea was always a mess of a club even when he joined it first of all. And it’s possible you won’t ever see the player he was at Bayer Leverkusen. But I do know there’s clearly a player of great skill and potential in there, it’s possible Arteta lacks the ability to bring it out of him.

Rice WYSIWYG….and yeah it’s tidy and efficient. But we need more than tidy and efficient. And because of that, playing him amounts to a waste of a position

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

United are not very good away from home so we should be confident of getting a result.

I feel like the dull opponents we’ve had to start has also contributed to the insipid displays but I expect to see a much better showing here given the step up in calibre.

If we lose this then I would be very concerned at the trajectory we’re going to be heading in over the next few games which aren’t favourable fixtures.

I also think we'll play better.

I just hope we will not waste our chances.

If Arteta had started us of the way he should have, I could see us giving them a real hiding, like Liverpool did to them last season

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I also think we'll play better.

I just hope we will not waste our chances.

If Arteta had started us of the way he should have, I could see us giving them a real hiding, like Liverpool did to them last season


I’ve seen some terrible defending in my time. But United’s defending against Liverpool is probably the worst defending I’ve seen in the top flight, worse than Derby County, worse than us when we lost 8-2 to United. It’s the kind of defending that should have been investigated for match fixing. Confident we’d have scored at least 7 if they defended like that against us

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

My lineup against united:


.................... Rams (until we see Raya).......

White.......Saliba.......Gabriel................ Zin

......Odegaard.........Partey............Rice

.......Saka,...........Eddie.........Trosaard

I would have loved to start Viera, and probably still could, if i went for 3 defenders like Arteta might still do, but I feel these are our best players and though some like Odegaard have not done enough to deserve to start, I'd still persist.

Viera definitely comes in as the 1st sub once we have the advantage or if its still looking like a draw.

[Mac76]

My lineup against united:


.................... Rams (until we see Raya).......

White.......Saliba.......Gabriel................ Zin

......Odegaard.........Partey............Rice

.......Saka,...........Eddie.........Trosaard

I would have loved to start Viera, and probably still could, if i went for 3 defenders like Arteta might still do, but I feel these are our best players and though some like Odegaard have not done enough to deserve to start, I'd still persist.

Viera definitely comes in as the 1st sub once we have the advantage or if its still looking like a draw.

Well you've left Havertz out which is a good start, but the trouble with the rest is that Rice will have to spend all his time trying to clean up after Zin when he makes a mess

And I'm not sold on the whole Rice+Partey idea, I don't get why we would play two DMs especially in a home match, we need more creativity there

I think if you take Partey out and have Vieira in left 8, plus of course swap Zin for Kiwior, it's a better balance

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well you've left Havertz out which is a good start, but the trouble with the rest is that Rice will have to spend all his time trying to clean up after Zin when he makes a mess

And I'm not sold on the whole Rice+Partey idea, I don't get why we would play two DMs especially in a home match, we need more creativity there

I think if you take Partey out and have Vieira in left 8, plus of course swap Zin for Kiwior, it's a better balance


In some ways I’d like to see Rice start without Partey just so people can see how terrible this would be. No chance of getting the ball forward quickly, and no alternative outlet without playing White which leaves us massively exposed on our right flank. It would be an absolute nightmare. But then I don’t want us to lose games just to prove a point

I also love this idea that on the back of a half decent cameo against Fulham, that suddenly Vieira isn’t a malnourished waste of a position. Shows you how people are quick to judge. I’m not judging Rice on three league games with us, I’m judging him on four-five years with West Ham and England.

[Mac76]

In some ways I’d like to see Rice start without Partey just so people can see how terrible this would be. No chance of getting the ball forward quickly, and no alternative outlet without playing White which leaves us massively exposed on our right flank. It would be an absolute nightmare. But then I don’t want us to lose games just to prove a point

I also love this idea that on the back of a half decent cameo against Fulham, that suddenly Vieira isn’t a malnourished waste of a position. Shows you how people are quick to judge. I’m not judging Rice on three league games with us, I’m judging him on four-five years with West Ham and England.

I'm judging Vieira on what he'a done since he got here - the flashes of quality he's shown ever since he's arrived, characteristically under-used by Arteta he's now had a chance to settle in the side and was good in pre-season, especially against Monaco and yes a great performance v Fulham

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

In some ways I’d like to see Rice start without Partey just so people can see how terrible this would be. No chance of getting the ball forward quickly, and no alternative outlet without playing White which leaves us massively exposed on our right flank. It would be an absolute nightmare. But then I don’t want us to lose games just to prove a point

I also love this idea that on the back of a half decent cameo against Fulham, that suddenly Vieira isn’t a malnourished waste of a position. Shows you how people are quick to judge. I’m not judging Rice on three league games with us, I’m judging him on four-five years with West Ham and England.

I'm definitely not saying Viera is the next coming. I've been one of his biggest critics on here and I still feel in general he's not the right kind of player for us.

However his brief cameo was far better than what we've been forced to endure since Kai Havertz sullied our doorstep, and TBH almost at par with all of Odegaard's contribution this season.

However Viera is not a player I think I'm going to change my mind on to much, unless he perfects his shooting, then maybe he'd become an undroppable starter in my mind. As for now, he's a much needed squad player in an unbalanced team.

[mandela8]

Apparently Partey is injured for 3 months.

Huge loss, but in a way it might solve a problem Arteta didn't otherwise seem capable of.

[mandela8]

I'm judging Vieira on what he'a done since he got here - the flashes of quality he's shown ever since he's arrived, characteristically under-used by Arteta he's now had a chance to settle in the side and was good in pre-season, especially against Monaco and yes a great performance v Fulham

If this is a meritocracy, Viera deserves a start after his sub appearance. Probably the best performance of the season.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Apparently Partey is injured for 3 months.

Huge loss, but in a way it might solve a problem Arteta didn't otherwise seem capable of.
It's all over the blogs, however their are also pictures of him in training today!

The thing with Partey is that this will eventually happen, and just like you, I think it will be a plus for a confused Arteta.

[mandela8]

It all over the blogs, however their are also pictures of him in training today!

The thing with Partey is that this will eventually happen, and just like you, I think it will be a plus for a confused Arteta.

Probably better if it was Rice who got injured, tbh.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

How would they know he's out for three months already when he was in training today?

I am taking the view of doubting this.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It's all over the blogs, however their are also pictures of him in training today!

The thing with Partey is that this will eventually happen, and just like you, I think it will be a plus for a confused Arteta.

It won’t be

If Partey is injured we are utterly screwed.

[Mac76]

It won’t be

If Partey is injured we are utterly screwed.

I don't agree, he can be a good player but he's not that fundamental

Btw I'm trying to remember who on here keeps reminding everyone that Partey is injury prone...? :shrug:

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't agree, he can be a good player but he's not that fundamental

Btw I'm trying to remember who on here keeps reminding everyone that Partey is injury prone...? :shrug:

He is incredibly injury prone, why do you think I’ve been spitting blood for the better part of two months over us signing Rice

Without partey we lack someone who can competently carry the ball forward from defensive third to attacking third.

So as I say, completely screwed

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

It's confirmed, he's injured.

Viera needs to start tomorrow, or he plays Trossard in that role and starts Martinelli..... just please Mikel, don't test the Fates by starting Havertz.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Groin injury, very unlikely to be the three months cited before. But it does mean of course, that there’s no possibility of winning tomorrow or the next game away at Everton or the NLD.

Top 4 looking very dicey

[Letters]

Groin injury, very unlikely to be the three months cited before. But it does mean of course, that there’s no possibility of winning tomorrow or the next game away at Everton or the NLD.

Top 4 looking very dicey
Literally got every prediction wrong so far this season :p

[HCZ_Reborn]

Literally got every prediction wrong so far this season :p

Pray to your all powerful, merciful God that Ive got this wrong as well :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

Apparently Partey has been unavailable for 45 games in his career with us while only missing 7 for Atleti in the same amount of time.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Apparently Partey has been unavailable for 45 games in his career with us while only missing 7 for Atleti in the same amount of time.

Difference in physical demand between the premier league and la liga innit, for Atletico he was a lump sitting in front of the defence. Lot more exertion playing for Arsenal

[Letters]

Pray to your all powerful, merciful God that Ive got this wrong as well :lol:

I would, but my personal belief, based on nothing more than "this is what I reckon" is that God pretty much stays out of football and lets us get on with it!

[Niall_Quinn]

It's sad this parody still poses as a significant match-up and a continuation of the great battles of the past. When you look back at the Arsenal and Utd teams when we had football, and then compare to what we have now. Dear God. I'm guessing nobody actually cares what this result will be? Except the newbie sandwich fans who can't remember back to the real thing?

[mandela8]

Apparently Partey has been unavailable for 45 games in his career with us while only missing 7 for Atleti in the same amount of time.

Has has this team on his back. He didn't need to do that in Madrid.

[Mac76]

Literally got every prediction wrong so far this season :p

This is my one shred of hope :lol:

[Mac76]

It's sad this parody still poses as a significant match-up and a continuation of the great battles of the past. When you look back at the Arsenal and Utd teams when we had football, and then compare to what we have now. Dear God. I'm guessing nobody actually cares what this result will be? Except the newbie sandwich fans who can't remember back to the real thing?

Well if you're an Arsenal fan of course you care, but yes I agree otherwise, 'parody' is pretty much it

[Letters]

It’s my parody and I’ll cry if I want to :sulk:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Rice and Havertz in central midfield :haha:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Arsenal: Ramsdale, White, Saliba, Gabriel, Zinchenko, Rice, Havertz, Odegaard, Saka, Martinelli, Nketiah.
Subs: Raya, Tomiyasu, Kiwior, Jorginho, Smith Rowe, Nelson, Vieira, Trossard, Jesus.

Manchester United: Onana, Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, Martinez, Dalot, Casemiro, Eriksen, Antony, Bruno Fernandes, Rashford, Martial.
Subs: Bayindir, Maguire, Hojlund, Reguilon, Garnacho, Pellistri, Evans, Gore, Hannibal.

[Marc Overmars]

Glad he’s reverted to last seasons back four and allowed Eddie to continue up front.

Hoping Saka and Martinelli play themselves into form here. Need them to arrive this season.

[Mac76]

Really happy to see Gabriel back, need a good performance today

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think he’s got everything wrong

Well at least five players in the starting line up who shouldn’t be there

White, Rice, Zinchenko, Havertz and Odegaard


If they’d been swapped out for

Kiwior, Tomoyasu, Jorginho, Malnutrition boy and Trossard

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Rice and Havertz in central midfield :haha:

And Zinchenko, obviously.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Glad he’s reverted to last seasons back four and allowed Eddie to continue up front.

Hoping Saka and Martinelli play themselves into form here. Need them to arrive this season.

Well he's decided to play with 10 men, so we'll need those front 3 to be at their best.

Honestly, Arteta pisses me off.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://x.com/legrove/status/1698336509659656194?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw


Arteta’s minister of propaganda opens his pie hole again


Though that said, I’m surprised he’s being that thin skinned, he usually just ignores critics. Maybe deep down he’s realised he’s fucking it all up, but his stubborn personality means he can’t reverse course

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Come on Arsenal. :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Mike Dean on commentary too. Fuck off.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Decent start.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Havertz :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Havertz. :haha:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Poor touch from Saka.

[Marc Overmars]

0-1 Rashford

Absolutely textbook

Dominate, do fuck all, concede from the first attack

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-1 Rashford. FFS.

[Letters]

1-1?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

ODEGAARD!!!

[Letters]

Ah. I heard my Gooner neighbour yelling so guessed we’d scored :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Conceding on the counter attack, who would have suspected.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Saka has been really bad.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

The quality is appalling. :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-1 HT. :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

I think we’re going to get picked off. No quality up front despite the bluster.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Skybot stealing Theo's joke 10 seconds after he said it.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Havertz reminds me of a Tallboy in Dishonored, just without the accuracy.

[Munchies]

Havertz is one of the worst players I've seen for us in a long, long time.

Get rid and cut our losses now.

[Marc Overmars]

Get Jesus on.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oof well done Ramsdale.

[Marc Overmars]

Saka needs to come off

[McNamara That Ghost...]

PELANTY!!!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Think it might be overturned

[McNamara That Ghost...]

No pel.

[dazthegooner]

Nope overturned

[Letters]

Ah. I thought we’d missed it. Quite hard to judge what’s going on from my neighbour’s strangled cries :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

We need to make a change if we want to win this.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Nketiah, Havertz, Zinchenko off, Jesus, Vieira and Tomiyasu on.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oh Saka.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-2 Garnacho. Dammit.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Offside?

[Marc Overmars]

Offside

Not particularly encouraging though

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oh it's offside!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Eight added. :lol:

[Letters]

2-1?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

RICE!!!!!

[Letters]

My neighbour :bow:

[WMUG]

HCZ :pal:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I love rice. Really stodgy rice.

[Letters]

3-1?! :haha:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

JESUS COME ON!!!!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Arsenal 3-1 Man Utd, FT!!!!

We've beaten them again at the Emirates. :haha:

[HCZ_Reborn]

HCZ :pal:

:lol: me

[HCZ_Reborn]

So there’s a thing….I love when we score on the break…wish we’d do it more often…nothing like rubbing salt into someone else’s open wounds

Did not expect that. I don’t think in all honesty we deserved to win, but who gives a fuck…we did win.

Not one to praise VAR but I think both big decisions, the pel and their second goal were right calls

Nothing like scoring late goals against that mob

https://www.arsenalpics.com/p/5/henry-2nd-goal-4-011125afc-2733.jpg.webp

[Letters]

HCZ :pal:

Can he please just predict a loss or a draw every game from now on kthxpls

[Marc Overmars]

Absolutely delighted with the win but the margins were so fine. It’s obviously not quite gelled for us up front and I think that needs to be resolved before we’re caught out.

But for now…get the fuck in, doesn’t get much sweeter than winning games like that.

[dostoy]

Havertz needs some love from the fans to give him some confidence.

If he doesn't get it, things will not change.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

This was easily one of the worst performances I've seen from us in a "big match" game. I was actually far more entertained in the loss against them last season at old trafford.

I am happy we won, but thanks to the result, Arteta will learn nothing and continue with his stupidity.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Havertz needs some love from the fans to give him some confidence.

If he doesn't get it, things will not change.

F*ck that!!

He is a professional and more annoyingly the highest paid employee we have currently. In 4 games he's managed to make me miss Xhaka, who got no love for 3-4 years and at least played to the best of his ability unlike this mong.

[Letters]

F*ck that!!

He is a professional and more annoyingly the highest paid employee we have currently. In 4 games he's managed to make me miss Xhaka, who got no love for 3-4 years and at least played to the best of his ability unlike this mong.

:lol: You do have a point.
We should get behind our players but they’re incredibly well paid and need to deliver.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I heard it as Arteta saying we're always on the clit.

Explains the performances really.

[HCZ_Reborn]

This was easily one of the worst performances I've seen from us in a "big match" game. I was actually far more entertained in the loss against them last season at old trafford.

I am happy we won, but thanks to the result, Arteta will learn nothing and continue with his stupidity.


To be honest, Havertz coming off didn’t change much…we were as flat as we were whilst he was playing.

Tactically I think hurt us because we are trying to step up and play the offside trap, and we marginally got away with it for Garnacho’s own goal.


But in reality the set up was as near to what we had last season as you’re likely to get. The substitutions happened too late but they were the right substitutions. It feels to me the players are not at the races. Odegaard is trying too hard, Saka just one of those games where it’s not working for him…Martinelli well he played better than the last few games but still a lot of half hearted efforts.

I’m still not a fan of Rice, for me he’s not the player we need, but his goal was a player with high self belief….not so much the finish which was penalty box pinball but the way he chests the ball down.


Loved the Jesus counter attacking goal, skill to allow the defender to commit pivots past him and lovely finish.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Vieira has to start against Everton, especially as they'll pack it up in the wide positions.

Contributed coming off twice in a row now. Havertz, it's just so awkward.

Hopefully he can pub something in the League Cup.

[Mac76]

Vieira has to start against Everton, especially as they'll pack it up in the wide positions.

Contributed coming off twice in a row now. Havertz, it's just so awkward.

Hopefully he can pub something in the League Cup.

Agreed, Vieira is a must to start, Arteta needs to man up and admit he's bought a turkey

So-so game but a great ending, the Emirates was REALLY loud at the end

The way Jesus fooled the defender and keeper was a joy to watch and great to see Rice get off the mark with such an important goal

[Marc Overmars]

I actually thought Rice was really good, barely put a foot wrong and was quite instrumental in trying to push us forward to find a winner. He takes responsibility and I love that about him.

Havertz I just have no idea what his role is. He’s not a bad player but it’s a square peg in a round hole. His confidence is probably shot too as I’m sure he’s aware of the negativity around him.

Overall that was a brilliant win but we need to back that up with a commanding performance and win at Neverton. We must make a change or 2 because it’s not really happening for Saka and Martinelli either.

[Mac76]

I actually thought Rice was really good, barely put a foot wrong and was quite instrumental in trying to push us forward to find a winner. He takes responsibility and I love that about him.

Havertz I just have no idea what his role is. He’s not a bad player but it’s a square peg in a round hole. His confidence is probably shot too as I’m sure he’s aware of the negativity around him.

Overall that was a brilliant win but we need to back that up with a commanding performance and win at Neverton. We must make a change or 2 because it’s not really happening for Saka and Martinelli either.

Agree with that, I definitely think Trossard should start ahead of Martinelli in the next game as well as Vieira in for Havertz

[HCZ_Reborn]

Agree with that, I definitely think Trossard should start ahead of Martinelli in the next game as well as Vieira in for Havertz

I’m getting to the point where I’m tired of stating who should play, Arteta will carry on regardless of common sense. It’s hard to know with Martinelli how much of it is him underperforming and how much of it is not getting the ball from Havertz.

As far as I’m concerned the system as well as the starting line up is wrong. The fact that we have conceded four goals in three home games, three goals direct from counter attacks and one from a corner that resulted from a counter attack suggests that the high line isn’t working….and that we are not doing well enough in possession to avoid giving the ball away and setting ourselves up to be countered.

Away from home we aren’t so adventurous but perhaps with that you can see that the goals aren’t coming either, which means we need to approach play in a different way. I do think players like Saka, Martinelli and Jesus are the type of players who would benefit from us being able to soak up pressure and play on the break. The defence works better if we sit deeper and the only thing missing would be the conduit linking defence and attack.

[Marc Overmars]

I thought we weren’t as hap hazard with the high line yesterday. Their goal was just a good goal, granted White should have been more proactive but it’s not a straightforward task stopping Rashford when he’s running directly at you with space to cut in. It was the lazy pass from Havertz which fucked that up for us to begin with. The margins were so fine with the Garnacho goal but I guess you have to give credit to Gabriel there because his body shape looked very deliberate in making him offside.

I actually felt like we let United have a lot more of the ball than they anticipated. They’re a counter attacking team and didn’t really have much guile at all to break us down when they had high possession periods.

It’s a strange one because even though we concede more goals than we should I actually think we’re quite good defensively, which to be fair is probably more down to the individuals rather than the system.

For me once again it is up front where we come up short and without the slice of luck for Rice’s goal we would be talking about another disappointing afternoon.

[Letters]

I was disappointed with their goal. We had 2 defenders on Rashford and for both of them to let him cut inside like that was a bit poor. Good finish though.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I thought we weren’t as hap hazard with the high line yesterday. Their goal was just a good goal, granted White should have been more proactive but it’s not a straightforward task stopping Rashford when he’s running directly at you with space to cut in. It was the lazy pass from Havertz which fucked that up for us to begin with. The margins were so fine with the Garnacho goal but I guess you have to give credit to Gabriel there because his body shape looked very deliberate in making him offside.

I actually felt like we let United have a lot more of the ball than they anticipated. They’re a counter attacking team and didn’t really have much guile at all to break us down when they had high possession periods.

It’s a strange one because even though we concede more goals than we should I actually think we’re quite good defensively, which to be fair is probably more down to the individuals rather than the system.

For me once again it is up front where we come up short and without the slice of luck for Rice’s goal we would be talking about another disappointing afternoon.

I don’t disagree but still the facts speak for themselves that we make ourselves vulnerable to the counter attack. I don’t think we are good enough in possession nor does playing inverted fullbacks help, White forced Rashford to cut inside but when he had Saliba covering he should have been more proactive.

The defence in terms of individuals is fine. Gabriel and Saliba are good defenders, I think White is good as well he’s just not a fullback. I think United’s main attacks came down the left and White got better as the game went on but evidently none of their players are passing much to Anthony as I think Zinchenko would have been roasted.

It’s fine pushing up if you’ve got two midfielders comfortable on the ball. For all my criticism of Rice (which I don’t see as criticism, he hasn’t done anything wrong I just don’t think he’s the right midfielder for us) he doesn’t give the ball away much, but someone like Havertz will. It’s not even a case of being dispossessed it’s a case of being too casual with passing, he’s guilty of it, Odegaard is guilty of it and Saka is guilty of it.

You swap out Havertz for Vieira and I don’t think that problem goes away. United are defensively turd, and Ten Haag decided to make things even easier for us by bringing Maguire and Evans on. But the reason I suggest going to a more counter attacking style isn’t just to avoid conceding goals but I think the players we have will thrive attacking wise if they are operating in more space. It’s too easy to crowd us out. Of course the limitations are that you have to rely on teams like Fulham who come looking for a point to be a bit more adventurous, but I just don’t think we have the attacking players to play in front of teams…..Havertz aside we don’t have players good in the air or are good at holding up the ball and playing him in central midfield tends to negate that anyway.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I was disappointed with their goal. We had 2 defenders on Rashford and for both of them to let him cut inside like that was a bit poor. Good finish though.

Him cutting inside was I think a feature not a bug, the point of the inverted full back is to keep players narrow rather than letting them cross or get in behind the defence. But when he had Saliba covering him, White should have pushed up to stop Rashford getting away the shot

[Mac76]

I do think players like Saka, Martinelli and Jesus are the type of players who would benefit from us being able to soak up pressure and play on the break.

I think this sometimes, we're so slow and ponderous in attack, Martinelli and Saka are always up against 2 or 3 defenders when trying to get the ball in - it was also partly why Pepe never got to shine, he's very much a counter-attacking player

But Arteta wants to play a different way

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I think this sometimes, we're so slow and ponderous in attack, Martinelli and Saka are always up against 2 or 3 defenders when trying to get the ball in - it was also partly why Pepe never got to shine, he's very much a counter-attacking player

But Arteta wants to play a different way

That's why Jesus' s goal is the talk of the town here, we hardly score goals like that under Arteta ball.

A real shame, because under AW and Emery those kind of goals were a dime a dozen