Arsenal vs Manchester United Player ratings and match reaction

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ramsdale 7 - you could argue that given he got a touch to Rashford shot he could have done better but I think the pace and curl was too much. Did well second half to deny Martial and Rashford


White 6.5 - What I feared would happen did happen, Rashford did him for pace, but even when he got back he stood off him. Did a bit better against him second half when Rashford held onto the ball too long


Saliba 7 - I think gets caught out too often by being forced to push up too much, but he did well with Gabriel to outmuscle United players when they got more bold attacking wise


Gabriel 7.5 - Stepped up enough to keep Garnarcho offside, arguably fouled United defender in build up to Rice goal but it was 50/50


Zinchenko 4 - Maybe even Arteta is starting to think, why do I play him?


Rice 7.5 - Did well being part of the early press but faded, his goal showed high levels of self belief and confidence


Havertz 6 - Actually don’t think he was terrible, the miss was terrible and he got dispossessed for their first goal but the effort was there. It was right to substitute him and as far as I’m concerned if he has any future with us, it’s not as a central midfielder.


Martinelli 6.5 - Good assist for the equaliser but often just lacked belief, very low on confidence


Saka 6 - Same as Martinelli, that miss near the end….crikey


Odegaard 7 - A player who seems to be frustrated with his own form, he’s trying hard but it’s not coming off for him…still nice a nice fuck you goal hit in anger


Nketiah 6.5 - Made himself available but often wasn’t found and tried to feed on scraps



Subs :


Vieira 6.5 - Not quite the dynamic cameo as last week but perfectly fine


Tomoyasu 6.5 - Not really time to make much of an impression


Jesus 7.5 - Can’t say much about overall performance but that was a finish of genuine class


Jorginho - Wasn’t on long enough to give him a ratin


Nelson - Same as Jorginho



The performance wasn’t great, it wasn’t terrible but it wasn’t great. Just feels like the engine isn’t quite fully running. Today it feels like it goes beyond Arteta’s quixotic systems and it feels like we are carrying a bit of a hangover from last season’s fizzle out. I don’t think it’s even that the effort isn’t there, it’s the spark and conviction that isn’t there.

But that said, riding our luck the way we did, combined with living in hope that Arteta will realise that simply thinking he’s the smartest man in football won’t cut it…..he needs to know when to keep it simple. Stop acting like we are Manchester City lite, because no one wants the tribute act when they can get the real thing. That might just get things going

[Mac76]

Nketiah was a 7.25 for me, Havertz a 4.5 at best

[mandela8]

Great win. Very fortunate that's one of the worst Utd performances I can remember against us. They were pitiful.

Ramsdale 6. Done what was expected of him.

Zinchenko 5.5. Never really noticed him, tbh. Which is great for him.

Saliba 6. Solid enough but a bit sloppy at times.

Gabriel 6.5. Thought he was decent enough.

Shite 2. Yet again this guy falls to pieces in a big game. Absolutely woeful performance. Completely his fault for their goal. The space he afforded Rashford then and throughout was ridiculous. Just a very weak player in the team due to his price tag.

Rice 6. Other than the goal he done the bare minimum. Couldn't help thinking Elneny could've done the same job.

Havertz 2. Deary me. I really want him to do well but fuck sake. Everything just looks nervy and why the fuck did he dive when he was clean through on goal?

Odegaard 7. Just a classy player.

Saka 3. Standard stuff. Absolutely pitiful performance. His constant cutting in is the biggest problem the attack faces. He needs to be dropped for Trossard. Man of the match.

Martinelli 7.5. Only player who tried to force the issue today. Looks dangerous throughout.

Nketiah 6.5. I like a lot of what he done. Had a couple of very good touches in and around the box and would've had summin for the stat mongs if his teammates could finish.

Viera surely had to have played himself into the team.

Jesus was good. Always happy to take the ball in difficult positions.

Nelson was nice and direct again when he came on. Should get more time than he does.

Tommyiasu. Better than Ben Shite.

[Chippy]

Nketiah was a 7.25 for me, Havertz a 4.5 at best

Generous score for Havertz, 1.5 for me. We will be trying to offload him in two years, just like the current Pepe scenario.
Thank god that Arteta's hand was forced by Party's injury so that Gabriel had to be included in the squad. 8.5 for Gabby.

[Mac76]

Generous score for Havertz, 1.5 for me. We will be trying to offload him in two years, just like the current Pepe scenario.
Thank god that Arteta's hand was forced by Party's injury so that Gabriel had to be included in the squad. 8.5 for Gabby.

Yes i think i was trying to be reasonable but you're right it is generous and 1.5 is probably more like it :lol:

[Letters]

The chance he fluffed when he miskicked it :lol:

:doh:

[Mac76]

The chance he fluffed when he miskicked it :lol:

:doh:

Yes it was woeful, also he had another incident like last week where he coudl have taken the ball on his chest but miscontrolled it and it went out of play - a lot of the time he acts like he's never seen a football before and doesn't know what to do with it

While people can say Rice's goal had a deflection, at least he chested it down well, got it under and control and took a firm shot - if you do that you can get lucky, as was the case

[Marc Overmars]

The lazy pass for the first goal, the air shot and choosing to go down when through. Just a woeful day for Havertz.

I have no doubt he’ll be starting every game though, I don’t see Arteta reshuffling so early.

[Mac76]

The lazy pass for the first goal, the air shot and choosing to go down when through. Just a woeful day for Havertz.

I have no doubt he’ll be starting every game though, I don’t see Arteta reshuffling so early.

sadly I agree, though Vieira's making a very strong case for inclusion

we're stuck with both Havertz and Zinchenko atm, it really hobbles the team

[Mac76]

Meanwhile I've just discovered our next transfer target... :lol:

https://twitter.com/SundayChants/status/1698267079525163194

[HCZ_Reborn]

Meanwhile I've just discovered our next transfer target... :lol:

https://twitter.com/SundayChants/status/1698267079525163194

:sulk: scuffed it

[IBK]

Obviously very happy with the result.

We are not quite clicking though. It's very noticeable that (for me) we looked much more solid with big Gabbby back and therefore a much more familiar back 5.

Last week I was going to post that Arteta is over complicating our approach. I recall him saying that we adopted an absurdly high number of formations in the Fulham game, and the telepathy that we saw a lot in the first 2 thirds of last season is lacking as a result. Its one thing trying to be unpredictable and have pland B C and D against a low block. It's another trying to be too clever and taking the instinctiveness that seemed to free our players and made them look as though they are enjoying playing away from the team.

So it was good to see us looking more like this in the final 10/15 mins of this game, and I hope that this is a sign that we are finding our groove again.

It's funny how a fairytale ending shifts perceptions. For most of the game I was cursing Havertz - not just for his own defeiciency in looking like he is on a different wavelength to everyone else, but for the manager's stubbornnness in playing him, and taking away from our team's cohesion in the process. Now I am more inclined to tolerate his inclusion and try to be patient - but only on the condition that he Arteta does not also tinker further with what is otherwise our strongest satring 11 - give or take Jesus/Nketiah.

It seems churlish to mention this - but we have to do something about our tendency to concede on on an opponent's first goalscoring opportunity. We know that (an albeit poor) Manure team plays counterattacking football, but by consistently pressing so high we gift players like Eriksen and Rashford precisely what they are waiting for - and we keep getting punished for it. If we are going to persist with this (and we are), then we HAVE to be more clinical in front of goal ourselves. To this end, Saka's form worries me. Its seems obvious that he has been overplayed, and we need to find a way to give him a rest. I would try playing Reiss Nelson in his position, but replace Havertz with Trossard (or Vieira) when an opportunity presents itself.

Anyways - a very important result that means we go into the international break with our tails up rather than navel gazing - which is the last thing that we need at the moment.

[Chippy]

Yes i think i was trying to be reasonable but you're right it is generous and 1.5 is probably more like it :lol:

;)

[HCZ_Reborn]

Obviously very happy with the result.

We are not quite clicking though. It's very noticeable that (for me) we looked much more solid with big Gabbby back and therefore a much more familiar back 5.

Last week I was going to post that Arteta is over complicating our approach. I recall him saying that we adopted an absurdly high number of formations in the Fulham game, and the telepathy that we saw a lot in the first 2 thirds of last season is lacking as a result. Its one thing trying to be unpredictable and have pland B C and D against a low block. It's another trying to be too clever and taking the instinctiveness that seemed to free our players and made them look as though they are enjoying playing away from the team.

So it was good to see us looking more like this in the final 10/15 mins of this game, and I hope that this is a sign that we are finding our groove again.

It's funny how a fairytale ending shifts perceptions. For most of the game I was cursing Havertz - not just for his own defeiciency in looking like he is on a different wavelength to everyone else, but for the manager's stubbornnness in playing him, and taking away from our team's cohesion in the process. Now I am more inclined to tolerate his inclusion and try to be patient - but only on the condition that he Arteta does not also tinker further with what is otherwise our strongest satring 11 - give or take Jesus/Nketiah.

It seems churlish to mention this - but we have to do something about our tendency to concede on on an opponent's first goalscoring opportunity. We know that (an albeit poor) Manure team plays counterattacking football, but by consistently pressing so high we gift players like Eriksen and Rashford precisely what they are waiting for - and we keep getting punished for it. If we are going to persist with this (and we are), then we HAVE to be more clinical in front of goal ourselves. To this end, Saka's form worries me. Its seems obvious that he has been overplayed, and we need to find a way to give him a rest. I would try playing Reiss Nelson in his position, but replace Havertz with Trossard (or Vieira) when an opportunity presents itself.

Anyways - a very important result that means we go into the international break with our tails up rather than navel gazing - which is the last thing that we need at the moment.


I’m glad it’s not just me who sees the obvious drawback in holding a high line. Ultimately I think it plays to the strengths of teams that come here for two reasons a) because as you note we aren’t clinical enough in front of goal to profit from pushing up so much and b) the fullback system we employ leaves us vulnerable to pace attacks, now Ben White is no slouch but he’s also no full back although I will say he did start off shakily with Marcus Rashford but he dealt much better with him as the game went on…I suspect he felt more comfortable sliding in to try and win the ball later on where as risking a yellow early on changes the game for you.

But either way Rashford is an excellent footballer imo, so to get a handle on him is to his credit.


I kind of feel though we are pissing into the wind expecting our attacking players to be clinical, Saka and Martinelli for instance their footballing instincts are to lay on chances for others rather than take them on themselves….and tend to only take shots on when there’s no other option.

In a way the problem is the same is true for Trossard, Nketiah, Jesus etc…I would say Odegaard but actually for me I think he’s taking too many shots on where sometimes he’d be better laying it on for others. But there is a hesitancy to take on the shot and it gives defenders time to readjust themselves and block.

My solution is to play more on the counter attack where you have the space to operate and passing to others takes entire defences out of the game. I’m not quite sure we have the midfield currently to play that way (certainly don’t have the fullbacks) but I think we need to appreciate that we were lucky that Saka, Martinelli and Odegaard were in such a purple patch for goals last season and we simply shouldn’t have assumed that would carry on to this. This is why not buying a striker was idiotic, but we are where we are.

[Letters]

Meanwhile I've just discovered our next transfer target... :lol:

https://twitter.com/SundayChants/status/1698267079525163194

The shot was a bit of a hit and hope but that first touch was *chef's kiss*

[Mac76]

The shot was a bit of a hit and hope but that first touch was *chef's kiss*

and the way he beat the two players immediately after receiving the ball :bow:

also I'm not a fan of people writing things off as 'hit and hope' it was a well-taken shot which found the top corner, - ok if he tried it again ten times he might not place it there once, but you could say that about a lot of pro footballers

[selassie]

Obviously very happy with the result.

We are not quite clicking though. It's very noticeable that (for me) we looked much more solid with big Gabbby back and therefore a much more familiar back 5.

Last week I was going to post that Arteta is over complicating our approach. I recall him saying that we adopted an absurdly high number of formations in the Fulham game, and the telepathy that we saw a lot in the first 2 thirds of last season is lacking as a result. Its one thing trying to be unpredictable and have pland B C and D against a low block. It's another trying to be too clever and taking the instinctiveness that seemed to free our players and made them look as though they are enjoying playing away from the team.

So it was good to see us looking more like this in the final 10/15 mins of this game, and I hope that this is a sign that we are finding our groove again.

It's funny how a fairytale ending shifts perceptions. For most of the game I was cursing Havertz - not just for his own defeiciency in looking like he is on a different wavelength to everyone else, but for the manager's stubbornnness in playing him, and taking away from our team's cohesion in the process. Now I am more inclined to tolerate his inclusion and try to be patient - but only on the condition that he Arteta does not also tinker further with what is otherwise our strongest satring 11 - give or take Jesus/Nketiah.

It seems churlish to mention this - but we have to do something about our tendency to concede on on an opponent's first goalscoring opportunity. We know that (an albeit poor) Manure team plays counterattacking football, but by consistently pressing so high we gift players like Eriksen and Rashford precisely what they are waiting for - and we keep getting punished for it. If we are going to persist with this (and we are), then we HAVE to be more clinical in front of goal ourselves. To this end, Saka's form worries me. Its seems obvious that he has been overplayed, and we need to find a way to give him a rest. I would try playing Reiss Nelson in his position, but replace Havertz with Trossard (or Vieira) when an opportunity presents itself.

Anyways - a very important result that means we go into the international break with our tails up rather than navel gazing - which is the last thing that we need at the moment.

Yesterday was a really important result, it would not have been good if we dropped points in back to back home games. I agree with a lot of what you are saying here and did think we look a bit more stable at the back with the inclusion of Gabriel.

We were pressing really high last season but I think the security of Partey and Xhaka and the chemistry in the team meant we did not get punished as obviously or as much. Central Midfield at the moment is the issue and that's largely down to 2/3rd's of it being different in personnel (Rice and Havertz). Rice has bedded in fairly well and is giving us 7 out of 10 performances most weeks, Havertz up until now has been a passenger, he isn't adding much to the team offensively or defensively. Havertz was a high risk, but potentially high reward signing, I am prepared to give him time to bed into his new role but it should not to the detriment of the teams performances and results. If he continues to add nothing then he should be dropped and forced to play himself back into contention, I don't care how much he earns or what he costs. I do however agree with you and think Arteta will persist with him until I guess the chemistry is formed. It's not just an issue with just Havertz, the chemistry between all 3 of the Midfielders has not yet been formed and it's why IMO we are seeing these disjointed perfromances. Regardless we are winning and that's not a bad thing even if at times it's a struggle to watch.

[IBK]

I’m glad it’s not just me who sees the obvious drawback in holding a high line. Ultimately I think it plays to the strengths of teams that come here for two reasons a) because as you note we aren’t clinical enough in front of goal to profit from pushing up so much and b) the fullback system we employ leaves us vulnerable to pace attacks, now Ben White is no slouch but he’s also no full back although I will say he did start off shakily with Marcus Rashford but he dealt much better with him as the game went on…I suspect he felt more comfortable sliding in to try and win the ball later on where as risking a yellow early on changes the game for you.

But either way Rashford is an excellent footballer imo, so to get a handle on him is to his credit.


I kind of feel though we are pissing into the wind expecting our attacking players to be clinical, Saka and Martinelli for instance their footballing instincts are to lay on chances for others rather than take them on themselves….and tend to only take shots on when there’s no other option.

In a way the problem is the same is true for Trossard, Nketiah, Jesus etc…I would say Odegaard but actually for me I think he’s taking too many shots on where sometimes he’d be better laying it on for others. But there is a hesitancy to take on the shot and it gives defenders time to readjust themselves and block.

My solution is to play more on the counter attack where you have the space to operate and passing to others takes entire defences out of the game. I’m not quite sure we have the midfield currently to play that way (certainly don’t have the fullbacks) but I think we need to appreciate that we were lucky that Saka, Martinelli and Odegaard were in such a purple patch for goals last season and we simply shouldn’t have assumed that would carry on to this. This is why not buying a striker was idiotic, but we are where we are.

Yes - alas I think you are right about our existing players becoming more clinical. But I am not sure that this issue would be solved simply by buying a striker. Arteta's system demands that a 'finisher' is not enough. Our No 9 needs to be a technical playmaker as well as an out and out striker. He needs to have the technical ability to play in tight spaces and with his back to goal. I think that our 'verticality' is not quick enough - and neither do we put in sufficiently good crosses to suit a target man who can knock the ball down for others or finish himself. There is no space and the opposition defenders are generally already set by the time we get the ball central. We are often caught in the 'horseshoe'. We have recently tried to stretch the opposition by getting the ball wide quickly - but while this worked in the first 10 mins yesterday - many teams have worked this out and do not commit too many players wide.

I think that your concern about our MF not being able to re-produce their goal tally of last season. My fear is that the manager does not share this view.

FWIW Eddie is more of a 'finisher' as a striker, but his game suffers from the above situation. Maybe a Haaland would solve it - but he is a freak, and I'm not sure there are too many options available to us of his type of quality.

It's clear that Arteta sees Havertz as a striking solution - providing goals from the left - but the problem is that he is fluffing his lines so far.

In theory, of course playing counter-attacking football would provide better opportunities, but firstly Arteta is not that guy at all. Possession seems to be everything with him. Secondly our technical excellence is a problem as well as a virtue. Like it or not the majority of teams (including Manure) fear this, and are not simply going to come on to us - affording space behind is not something that we can dictate and to a degree we are stuck having to cope habitually with low block. So we are caught between 2 stools. Teams sense that we are vulnerable because of our high line and it only takes one misplaced pass to open us up. So we seek solutions to that lack of space by having a playmaker in goal.

Given what we have, I think our best hope is that our players develop that telepathy that reduces astray passes - because I don't see much changing otherwise. I also fear that we may be found out in the CL.

I will be very interested in seeing how we deal with Spurs in 3 weeks' time. It seems that they know no other game under Postecoglou than pressing forward, so this may give us a look at what we are like when given more space to operate...

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yes - alas I think you are right about our existing players becoming more clinical. But I am not sure that this issue would be solved simply by buying a striker. Arteta's system demands that a 'finisher' is not enough. Our No 9 needs to be a technical playmaker as well as an out and out striker. He needs to have the technical ability to play in tight spaces and with his back to goal. I think that our 'verticality' is not quick enough - and neither do we put in sufficiently good crosses to suit a target man who can knock the ball down for others or finish himself. There is no space and the opposition defenders are generally already set by the time we get the ball central. We are often caught in the 'horseshoe'. We have recently tried to stretch the opposition by getting the ball wide quickly - but while this worked in the first 10 mins yesterday - many teams have worked this out and do not commit too many players wide.

I think that your concern about our MF not being able to re-produce their goal tally of last season. My fear is that the manager does not share this view.

FWIW Eddie is more of a 'finisher' as a striker, but his game suffers from the above situation. Maybe a Haaland would solve it - but he is a freak, and I'm not sure there are too many options available to us of his type of quality.

It's clear that Arteta sees Havertz as a striking solution - providing goals from the left - but the problem is that he is fluffing his lines so far.

In theory, of course playing counter-attacking football would provide better opportunities, but firstly Arteta is not that guy at all. Possession seems to be everything with him. Secondly our technical excellence is a problem as well as a virtue. Like it or not the majority of teams (including Manure) fear this, and are not simply going to come on to us - affording space behind is not something that we can dictate and to a degree we are stuck having to cope habitually with low block. So we are caught between 2 stools. Teams sense that we are vulnerable because of our high line and it only takes one misplaced pass to open us up. So we seek solutions to that lack of space by having a playmaker in goal.

Given what we have, I think our best hope is that our players develop that telepathy that reduces astray passes - because I don't see much changing otherwise. I also fear that we may be found out in the CL.

I will be very interested in seeing how we deal with Spurs in 3 weeks' time. It seems that they know no other game under Postecoglou than pressing forward, so this may give us a look at what we are like when given more space to operate...

To précis what you’ve said it feels like the biggest barrier for us is the coach and when I suggested that last season I was shot down, because perception is often what carries more than reality and perception is that Arteta is a genius and he isn’t. I’m not saying he’s stupid, I’m saying he’s stubborn and full of hubris and is the kind of person who takes unconventional and goes down a rabbit hole with it.

Yes you need to change things up, but sometimes the path of least resistance is there for a reason.

[IBK]

I think where we differ is that while I can observe issues with the approach that Arteta is adopting with our team, I don't want a change of manager (I don't know whether this is your view, but I know that some on here do). He is stubborn and seems to have a blind spot with certain players, but there is not a manager out there who is without flaws. Even Guardiola is IMO guilty of playing a rather uninspiring brand of smothering football, and we will never know whether he would be able to achieve the success he has had without the unlimited financial resources at his disposal - not to mention his club breaking financial ules 100+ times. While we are at it, if people see Arteta as cold and obsessive (I don't personally agree with the former), Guardiola is this x 100. I don't like him at all.

I think regarding Arteta as a 'genius' is overblown. He is clearly a clever tactician (seems too much at times), but is a manager still learning in his first big role. But I struggle to see the antipathy to him. He is one of our own, and clearly loves our club. And he has given us an identity and some pride back in our team after too many broken years. In a sense I feel that he is a victim of his own success, because expectations are so high at Arsenal now - and as a result there is angst amongst some suppoters every time we fall below 'perfect'.

Arteta has built a young team that is the envy of most that has not reached its ceiling yet. He and his team have given us moments over the last season or so that we have not witnessed since Wenger's glory years. I think that his achievements need to be seen in the context of the travails affecting a number of our traditional rivals - and he compares very favourably in this regard. It seems a little absurd to me that the fact he was unable to beat what is the best team in the world to the title last season seems to be held against him.

I have always been of the view that its unfair to judge the manager we do have against a theoretically perfect manager we don't - when such a manager does not exist.

Arteta's (real or percieved) flaws are interesting to debate. But things are going pretty well notwithstanding, IMO.

[Letters]

I have always been of the view that its unfair to judge the manager we do have against a theoretically perfect manager we don't - when such a manager does not exist.
:gp:

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think with Arteta the annoyance is in picking favourites regardless of form or even to be honest ability, being Galaxy brained and needless overcomplicated on one hand but not changing things when it matters on the other hand. I attribute where we are more on the money we’ve spent rather than any particular ability on Arteta’s part to bring the best out of players or being revolutionary tactically.

For what it’s worth I don’t disagree with you regarding Guardiola, it’s hard to judge his success because he’s always had plenty of money to spend. But a lot of the things I don’t like about Arteta are for me clearly evident with him at City as well.

The thing is a coach is only as good as their last result, you’ll get a lot of Liverpool fans criticising Klopp despite what he has achieved with them.

I feel a lot has been spent on defenders and we are now in a situation where we lack really anything approaching a traditional fullback which I think is madness, it also means we’ve struggled to recruit in crucial areas such as a striker and a box to box midfielder.

As for this, giving us our identity back. I’m not even sure what that means. Do I personally want Arteta gone? Yes I think too often he is singularly responsible for us dropping points. Do I see much justification in getting rid of him currently? No. Although I’m still very hyper alert that with a difficult run of fixtures that could change.

[HCZ_Reborn]

But I suppose as much as Arteta himself, what annoys me is the apologists for him. And I don’t really mean anyone on here, I don’t think anyone on here is of the opinion that he can do no wrong. But there’s this weird online atmosphere that often permeates in a cult like regard. People talk about having total and complete faith in him? They support him without question and the reason players like Havertz have been poor is because of fan negativity about him.

Get behind the team is for me an injunction not to criticise, you get behind the team…don’t tell me what I should or shouldn’t do. I’ve long since grown out of the idea of these players being heroes, they are employees/functionaries and like the coach are eminently expendable.

I feel slightly sorry for Havertz because all the time in the world won’t turn him into a central midfielder. It’s not what he is

But if his inclusion in the team is a net negative for our play and our results, I’m not going to feel too badly if he gets stick about it online.

[IBK]

I think with Arteta the annoyance is in picking favourites regardless of form or even to be honest ability, being Galaxy brained and needless overcomplicated on one hand but not changing things when it matters on the other hand. I attribute where we are more on the money we’ve spent rather than any particular ability on Arteta’s part to bring the best out of players or being revolutionary tactically.

For what it’s worth I don’t disagree with you regarding Guardiola, it’s hard to judge his success because he’s always had plenty of money to spend. But a lot of the things I don’t like about Arteta are for me clearly evident with him at City as well.

The thing is a coach is only as good as their last result, you’ll get a lot of Liverpool fans criticising Klopp despite what he has achieved with them.

I feel a lot has been spent on defenders and we are now in a situation where we lack really anything approaching a traditional fullback which I think is madness, it also means we’ve struggled to recruit in crucial areas such as a striker and a box to box midfielder.

As for this, giving us our identity back. I’m not even sure what that means. Do I personally want Arteta gone? Yes I think too often he is singularly responsible for us dropping points. Do I see much justification in getting rid of him currently? No. Although I’m still very hyper alert that with a difficult run of fixtures that could change.

A fair post. Personally while I have my frustrations with Arteta's team set up, I do feel that football is evolving, and many teams are now playing with inverted rather than traditional full backs. I think this point is also illustrated by the fact that we couldn't offload Tierney - still one of the best in the business at the traditional full back role - to an EPL club. I think I would rather have a coach in the vanguard of these tactical developments rather than one behind the curve. Where I do think that arteta has got things right is the recognition that a high level of technical ability is a must in all areas of the pitch - and that bigger, more physical players are generally in demand. That said, I feel as i've said before that you can take 'Swiss army knifing' too far, and that specialist players are still needed along the spine of the team. It was obvious for me on Saturday that the return of big Gabby improved us a lot.

I agree with you that our recent success correlates to a large degree with money spent - but by this measure we were 4th biggest spenders in the EPl last season, so the manager exceeded expectations...We were 3rd biggest spenders in the transfer window just closed but if you discount the Timber fee (reasonable to do if correlating spend with success) then we were only 4th again - almost level with Sp*rs in 5th. We also need to remember that the value of Citeh's team is already astronomical. The manager is clearly doing something right by this metric.

As for our identity. Under the best Wenger years we were regarded as a young; dynamic and technically excellent team. We lost our lustre for years after this, and now we have it back again. Plus we are again competing for the league having had years where 4th was our 'trophy'. We are back in the CL and the Emirates is once again almost impossible to get tickets for - plus being more vibrant than it has ever been. Not sure how much more this point can be illustrated.

[IBK]

But I suppose as much as Arteta himself, what annoys me is the apologists for him. And I don’t really mean anyone on here, I don’t think anyone on here is of the opinion that he can do no wrong. But there’s this weird online atmosphere that often permeates in a cult like regard. People talk about having total and complete faith in him? They support him without question and the reason players like Havertz have been poor is because of fan negativity about him.

Get behind the team is for me an injunction not to criticise, you get behind the team…don’t tell me what I should or shouldn’t do. I’ve long since grown out of the idea of these players being heroes, they are employees/functionaries and like the coach are eminently expendable.

I feel slightly sorry for Havertz because all the time in the world won’t turn him into a central midfielder. It’s not what he is

But if his inclusion in the team is a net negative for our play and our results, I’m not going to feel too badly if he gets stick about it online.

The question needs to be asked what is he, then? Don't think he is a striker...

[Marc Overmars]

The question needs to be asked what is he, then? Don't think he is a striker...

He definitely isn’t a striker, I think his time at Chelsea proved that. I also don’t think he’s a CM either, he’s not robust enough nor does he have the engine.

I think he’s an Ozil type, with perhaps more inclination to get on the end of an attack. So an attacking mid essentially who plays off the strikers. A role that is pretty much non-existent in our team.

A luxury player as far as I’m concerned, I don’t think he’s a bad footballer, technically he’s decent but I think he’s a passenger at the moment. Hopefully he proves us all wrong but I’m struggling to see it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The question needs to be asked what is he, then? Don't think he is a striker...

I think if we were to play two up front, he could well operate as a striker, perhaps a more deep lying one…but as I say repeatedly he’s the only player in the team who can hold up the ball and has aerial ability. He doesn’t match the current system but actually could see him functioning reasonably well in a two up front partnership with Edward and genuinely think this would be worth trying out in either the league cup or champions league.

[HCZ_Reborn]

A fair post. Personally while I have my frustrations with Arteta's team set up, I do feel that football is evolving, and many teams are now playing with inverted rather than traditional full backs. I think this point is also illustrated by the fact that we couldn't offload Tierney - still one of the best in the business at the traditional full back role - to an EPL club. I think I would rather have a coach in the vanguard of these tactical developments rather than one behind the curve. Where I do think that arteta has got things right is the recognition that a high level of technical ability is a must in all areas of the pitch - and that bigger, more physical players are generally in demand. That said, I feel as i've said before that you can take 'Swiss army knifing' too far, and that specialist players are still needed along the spine of the team. It was obvious for me on Saturday that the return of big Gabby improved us a lot.

I agree with you that our recent success correlates to a large degree with money spent - but by this measure we were 4th biggest spenders in the EPl last season, so the manager exceeded expectations...We were 3rd biggest spenders in the transfer window just closed but if you discount the Timber fee (reasonable to do if correlating spend with success) then we were only 4th again - almost level with Sp*rs in 5th. We also need to remember that the value of Citeh's team is already astronomical. The manager is clearly doing something right by this metric.

As for our identity. Under the best Wenger years we were regarded as a young; dynamic and technically excellent team. We lost our lustre for years after this, and now we have it back again. Plus we are again competing for the league having had years where 4th was our 'trophy'. We are back in the CL and the Emirates is once again almost impossible to get tickets for - plus being more vibrant than it has ever been. Not sure how much more this point can be illustrated.



So to break down each point


Tactical evolution - I’m not at all convinced that the inverted full back is more than just a luxury fad, if there is any measurable benefit to it I can’t see it. What it gives you in extra midfield coverage it takes away with the assumption that you can force wingers to cut inside rather than get a cross in or get in behind the defence. But if that fails to happen the winger is left with a hell of a lot more space. The traditional fullback role has already changed to incorporate an attacking overlap with the wingers, this is nullified with inverted fullbacks and often means players like Martinelli who don’t drop deep to win the ball are often taken out of the game for periods.

I absolutely agree that a high degree of technical ability is required in all positions but then this is what makes me question us signing Declan Rice who is not very technical at all in terms of passing or ball control.

I don’t think under any reasonable metric we should discount the Timber transfer, it’s like discounting the Havertz transfer because he’s proved to be useless.

As for Identity, yeah I still don’t get it. First of all if he has given us an identity as an attacking team it’s a very recent turnaround, as until the last year our goals to games ratio was exceptionally poor under Arteta (and I’d say in no small way contributory to this, is the fact that we’ve not bought a single out and out striker since he joined us)

The only identity that matters to me personally is one of winning. I tend to favour younger players over older players on the whole because the pace and athleticism is there, and in terms of useful lifespan at the club they have much more of their career in front of them than behind them. But ultimately I’m not especially interested in the players nor can I identify with them. I look at them as little more than tools.

[WMUG]

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/12955574/listen-to-var-reverse-kai-havertz-penalty-decision

Now I've calmed down I think this is an interesting watch.

Clearly Taylor thought AWB tripped Havertz on the first lunge, but the VAR told him that wasn't the case which is why he's overturned it.

[IBK]

So to break down each point


Tactical evolution - I’m not at all convinced that the inverted full back is more than just a luxury fad, if there is any measurable benefit to it I can’t see it. What it gives you in extra midfield coverage it takes away with the assumption that you can force wingers to cut inside rather than get a cross in or get in behind the defence. But if that fails to happen the winger is left with a hell of a lot more space. The traditional fullback role has already changed to incorporate an attacking overlap with the wingers, this is nullified with inverted fullbacks and often means players like Martinelli who don’t drop deep to win the ball are often taken out of the game for periods.

I absolutely agree that a high degree of technical ability is required in all positions but then this is what makes me question us signing Declan Rice who is not very technical at all in terms of passing or ball control.

I don’t think under any reasonable metric we should discount the Timber transfer, it’s like discounting the Havertz transfer because he’s proved to be useless.

As for Identity, yeah I still don’t get it. First of all if he has given us an identity as an attacking team it’s a very recent turnaround, as until the last year our goals to games ratio was exceptionally poor under Arteta (and I’d say in no small way contributory to this, is the fact that we’ve not bought a single out and out striker since he joined us)

The only identity that matters to me personally is one of winning. I tend to favour younger players over older players on the whole because the pace and athleticism is there, and in terms of useful lifespan at the club they have much more of their career in front of them than behind them. But ultimately I’m not especially interested in the players nor can I identify with them. I look at them as little more than tools.

OK (because I'm bored). This is an excellent explanation of the evolution of the inverted fullback role https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DkIL1OWXkM

As for your opinion, this is valid. The point I was making is that personally I am cool with a manager who is progressive tactically. I think that the video explains well how an inverted FB system is intended to create overloads in MF - alternatively a route for quick balls to wingers - as a means to counter opposition teams packing the central final third area - that we tend now to decsribe as a low block. As I said before, the majority of teams will play this way against us, so it is going to be much harder for our wingers (or FB's) to 'get in behind the defence', and the low block is also more effective against crosses into the box. We saw this against Manure - who effectively played a low block - and it's interesting to note that in this game, Martinelli was actually one of our more effective players - he tends to combine well with Zinchenko - the epitome of an inverted FB.

I have no problem at all with using Rice - whose principal role as No 6 is to break up and intercept play; provide security for our back line, but make forays into the opposition box when possible. I dispute that he lacks the requisite technical ability for this role.

Discounting the Timber transfer is not at all like discounting a player who is available but not yet effective. If we are collating league positions with money spent (and judging the manager's performance by this metric) then it is IMO perfectly reasonable to factor in the fact that a big signing is out for the whole season. As I said, we were 4th biggest spenders last season so Arteta out performed his expenditure.

A team's identity is not governed by its striker. Neither is winning an identity. If it was, then only 1 team per season has any identity at all. All I can say to add to what I have said before is that 60K plus fans at the Emirates - and countless more who cannot get tickets clearly think that we have our mojo back...

[Letters]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3Go78p2qo4

Chuckle

[Chippy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3Go78p2qo4

Chuckle
Saeed TV :haha: