The Arsenal v Liverpool, Emirates stadium, 4.30pm Sunday 7 Januaey

[Mac76]

No Salah, so a bit of luck there, as without Tomi I guess Zin might be back if fit.

Suffice to say we need to have somehow got our act together in the last week to stand a good chance

Still, 0-3 Nunez hatter

PS can someone correct the typo in 'January' pls :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

My team for today

Ramsdale, White, Saliba, Kiwior, Gabriel, Rice, Jorginho, Havertz, Nelson, Smith Rowe, Trossard (as Jesus is injured)

[Marc Overmars]

Big performance and result needed here.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Arsenal: Ramsdale, White, Saliba, Gabriel, Kiwior, Rice, Jorginho, Odegaard, Saka, Nelson, Havertz.
Subs: Raya, Cedric, Walters, Sousa, Smith Rowe, Nwaneri, Trossard, Martinelli, Nketiah.

Liverpool: Alisson, Alexander-Arnold, Konate, Quansah, Gomez, Mac Allister, Elliott, Jones, Gakpo, Nunez, Diaz
Subs: Kelleher, Clark, Chambers, Gordon, McConnell, Bradley, Nyoni, Gravenberch, Jota,

[HCZ_Reborn]

Arsenal: Ramsdale, White, Saliba, Gabriel, Kiwior, Rice, Jorginho, Odegaard, Saka, Nelson, Havertz.
Subs: Raya, Cedric, Walters, Sousa, Smith Rowe, Nwaneri, Trossard, Martinelli, Nketiah.


Oh well I picked 9 of the first 11 correctly

[Mac76]

Nice to see Ram in there, hope he has a good one, likewise Nelson

[HCZ_Reborn]

First time we played Liverpool in the FA cup was 1st February 1913 where we lost 4-1 at Highbury

Then after the Great War we played them again on Saturday 13th January 1923 where we drew 0-0 at Anfield, followed by another 4-1 defeat at Highbury four years later

Then we played again at Highbury 4 years later on the 19th Feb 1927 where we won 2-0

We didn’t play again until 1936 where we won 2-0 at Anfield on the 25th January

Our first of three FA cup final meetings was at Wembley on 29th April 1950 (8 days after my Dad was born) we won again 2-0

Then back to back defeats in the 1962/1963 season and 1963/1964 season going down 2-1 at Highbury and 5-0 at Anfield the following season respectively

Shouldn’t need to explain what happened in the 1971 FA cup final to anyone

Took a marathon four matches to settle things in the semi finals of 1979/1980 and we finally came out ahead only to lose to West Ham in the final

Wouldn’t play each other in the cup again until that infamous 2001 FA cup final. The last time we lost to Liverpool in the fa cup


Played a year later and won 1-0 at Highbury due to a Dennis Bergkamp goal


Then in 2007 we won 3-1 at Anfield on the 6th January (a game I went to see) it was three days before we went back to Anfield for the league cup game where we won 6-3


Then most recently in 2014 we won 2-1 at the Emirates on the way to our first trophy in nine years

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Come on Arsenal. :bow:

[Letters]

Utter shit from…someone

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oh Nelson, what a chance.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Nelson :doh:

[Letters]

Oh Nelson, what a chance.

Ah yes. Him.
Another example of the lack of quality up front.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Haven't got going at all, you're well on top.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Alisson saves from Havertz

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

How the hell did you not score?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Alisson saves from Havertz

Yeah decent shot which keeper pushed out, shame we didn’t have more players closing in

[Letters]

Holy SHIT we are poor up front.
Smacked the bar and had about 5 other chances in the space of 10 seconds and bolloxed them all up

[HCZ_Reborn]

How the hell did you not score?

I don’t know

[McNamara That Ghost...]

How the fuck have we not scored.

[Letters]

How the hell did you not score?

We don’t have anyone of quality up front.
It’s pathetic

[HCZ_Reborn]

We don’t have anyone of quality up front.
It’s pathetic

I think we were unlucky to be honest, Havertz was right to pass to Odegaard who couldn’t just place it because there were Liverpool players on the line so had to smash it. Then they had numbers to block any follow up

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Havertz needed to hit that first time.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's hard to believe what I'm watching here. An all white kit with white numbers? WTF? How little respect does this club have for any and every aspect of the game? And "Liverpool" in purple?

Despicable bastards, the lot of them.

[Letters]

I think we were unlucky to be honest, Havertz was right to pass to Odegaard who couldn’t just place it because there were Liverpool players on the line so had to smash it. Then they had numbers to block any follow up

There’s something in it. But just look at the way we’re trying to pass through them. We have no idea how to apply the killer blow and put the ball in the net. This is the sort of game we end up losing the first time Liverpool have a decent chance.

[Niall_Quinn]

This again. "Arsenal have swapped their traditional red shirts for a totally white strip in their opening game of this year's FA Cup campaign.

The Gunners travel to Oxford United for a third round tie on Monday evening, using the occasion to publicise the club's No More Red campaign. The initiative aims to help tackle knife crime, with more than 11,500 such offences being committed in London last year."

So there you have it. More bollocks politics. If they invested as much time learning the basics of the game they'd be favourites for the CL.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It's hard to believe what I'm watching here. An all white kit with white numbers? WTF? How little respect does this club have for any and every aspect of the game? And "Liverpool" in purple?

Despicable bastards, the lot of them.

Do you know the worst thing about you? It’s your utter predictability

[Letters]

Havertz

Wanker Wanker, more like.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Some strike from White.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oh Havertz.

[Niall_Quinn]

That chav can't even head a ball. It's crazy how poor he is.

[Letters]

Honestly. Watching us flailing around with no idea how to actually score a goal is painful.

[Letters]

:lol: Saka’s free kick.

[Niall_Quinn]

Do you know the worst thing about you? It’s your utter predictability

Or your's and your kind maybe? Doesn't matter how much shit gets shovelled under your nose, it's all to be swallowed without a whimper.

[Letters]

This is honestly unwatchable

[Niall_Quinn]

I hear that chav cost 65 mill and is the highest paid player at the club? Fake news or true?

[Letters]

Havertz hits it right at the keeper :lol:
We are so ponderous

[Letters]

They smack the bar. First decent chance they’ve had and we could be 1-0 down.
I think we know how this ends.

[Niall_Quinn]

Must be a piss take or some money laundering scheme. Nobody would shell out on a player like that for footballing reasons.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Havertz hits it right at the keeper :lol:
We are so ponderous

Ok this is getting silly now. If Lego hair still claims we don’t need a striker, he needs to be sectioned

[Marc Overmars]

A half that pretty much sums us up right now.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ok this is getting silly now. If Lego hair still claims we don’t need a striker, he needs to be sectioned

Yeah, because he's telling these players to go out and be shit. Why do you always blame the manager for the very self-evident inability of these highly paid posers to deliver the basics of the game? Arteta's tactics are obviously right, in relation to this incredibly shitty Liverpool shower. All the players had to do was to be able to kick a ball, or head one or figure out where the goal is. But they can't. Arteta in his prime would be embarrassingly superior to all of them, combined.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Or your's and your kind maybe? Doesn't matter how much shit gets shovelled under your nose, it's all to be swallowed without a whimper.

Firstly swallow what? An anti knife crime campaign…yeah that really boils my blood. Plus what exactly do you do when shit supposedly gets shovelled under your nose..you come on here and inanely bitch about everything like an embarassing uncle that people have long since stopped inviting to Christmas dinner.

I wouldn’t even object to half of your bullshit if you hadn’t spent so much time being a paper tiger.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yeah, because he's telling these players to go out and be shit. Why do you always blame the manager for the very self-evident inability of these highly paid posers to deliver the basics of the game? Arteta's tactics are obviously right, in relation to this incredibly shitty Liverpool shower. All the players had to do was to be able to kick a ball, or head one or figure out where the goal is. But they can't. Arteta in his prime would be embarrassingly superior to all of them, combined.

I didn’t say anything about the tactics, but when the finishing is poor and you don’t have a recognised striker on the pitch and even you yourself have bemoaned the signing of Havertz…I don’t exactly know what you’re taking exception to. Perhaps because I called you predictable, well you know the solution there don’t you?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Us. :lol:

[Letters]

Ok this is getting silly now. If Lego hair still claims we don’t need a striker, he needs to be sectioned
I guess when you’ve just spent £65m on one you have to back them.
Honestly, the amount we’ve spent and we have no one of quality up front.
BBC pretending we’ve been good :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Firstly swallow what? An anti knife crime campaign…yeah that really boils my blood. Plus what exactly do you do when shit supposedly gets shovelled under your nose..you come on here and inanely bitch about everything like an embarassing uncle that people have long since stopped inviting to Christmas dinner.

I wouldn’t even object to half of your bullshit if you hadn’t spent so much time being a paper tiger.

You're the bloke constantly on here matey, not me. At least I don't outstay my welcome, eh? But if you think the club should be plastering the stadium with BLM bullshit - long after that scam was figured out, or bending the knee to berate a league that is filled with black players, playing in a city where the majority is now non-white, or making other such political statements when they can't even kick a ball then tell me how distracted I am and remind me what the priorities of a football team should be.

[Niall_Quinn]

I didn’t say anything about the tactics, but when the finishing is poor and you don’t have a recognised striker on the pitch and even you yourself have bemoaned the signing of Havertz…I don’t exactly know what you’re taking exception to. Perhaps because I called you predictable, well you know the solution there don’t you?

I'm laughing at you calling me predictable. LOL.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I guess when you’ve just spent £65m on one you have to back them.
Honestly, the amount we’ve spent and we have no one of quality up front.
BBC pretending we’ve been good :lol:

Well we have been good, this wasn’t like the West Ham game where we just passed ourselves into a cul de sac we have played well, pressed them high up the pitch and created tons of space and opportunities just been awful at putting the ball in the net. Apart from dickhead Alexander Arnold smashing against the bar, we’ve penned them in and they’ve created fuck all.

I think Nelson looks out of his depth at this level, but we have everything right bar the cum shot

[Letters]

I'm laughing at you calling me predictable. LOL.

I knew you were going to say that.


:ninja:

[HCZ_Reborn]

I knew you were going to say that.


:ninja:


See I knew you were only joking but….

[Letters]

Well we have been good, this wasn’t like the West Ham game where we just passed ourselves into a cul de sac we have played well, pressed them high up the pitch and created tons of space and opportunities just been awful at putting the ball in the net. Apart from dickhead Alexander Arnold smashing against the bar, we’ve penned them in and they’ve created fuck all.

I think Nelson looks out of his depth at this level, but we have everything right bar the cum shot
Our pressing has been good but when we get in and around the box we’re no better than we were against West Ham. We have no idea how to put the ball into the net, they all looked scared to shoot. It’s honestly ridiculous

[Marc Overmars]

Is that Ken Shamrock’s music? :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I couldn't work out whose theme that was playing. A wrestler obviously.

[Letters]

Yeah, because he's telling these players to go out and be shit. Why do you always blame the manager for the very self-evident inability of these highly paid posers to deliver the basics of the game?
The buck always stops with the manager.
He trains these players every day, picks the team and has spent a lot of money on some of these players. He has to bear responsibility for them not being able to do basic things.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Is that Ken Shamrock’s music? :lol:

Oh fuck you're right!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Our pressing has been good but when we get in and around the box we’re no better than we were against West Ham. We have no idea how to put the ball into the net, they all looked scared to shoot. It’s honestly ridiculous

Didn’t create anywhere near the amount of chances against West Ham. No player had the amount of space Havertz had to put away a chance, of course the difference is Liverpool aren’t playing a deep block….but also we have mixed it up, played it in behind the full backs, played long ball…shot from outside the box.

[Marc Overmars]

Oh fuck you're right!

A crossover I never expected. :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

The buck always stops with the manager.
He trains these players every day, picks the team and has spent a lot of money on some of these players. He has to bear responsibility for them not being able to do basic things.

Fine. But the knee-jerks calling for his head might explain how any manager is going to deal with the basic lack of proficiency in the players. If I had to guess I'm going to say Arteta is probably not on the training pitch demanding players head wide from point blank range. These are just very poor players, but also some of the best in the league. And there's the main problem. Get whichever manager you want, but it won't make any difference.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fine. But the knee-jerks calling for his head might explain how any manager is going to deal with the basic lack of proficiency in the players. If I had to guess I'm going to say Arteta is probably not on the training pitch demanding players head wide from point blank range. These are just very poor players, but also some of the best in the league. And there's the main problem. Get whichever manager you want, but it won't make any difference.

Speaking of predictable arguments. Maybe I should be generous and say consistent. Plus didn’t call for Arteta’s head in the post you replied to, I said we clearly need a striker and he’s denied it. Plus if these players are shit, who bought them

[Niall_Quinn]

Liverpool are absolutely shocking. Second time I've seen them and they are embarrassing.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oh jesus wept.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's pathetic. Open goal.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Jota on to destroy us.

[Letters]

Saliba is quality.

Most of the rest…not so much.
I just can’t get excited when we break forward, it just seems so unlikely it will ever lead anywhere.
That free kick routine was actually good. But of course it didn’t lead to even a meaningful chance. Liverpool are starting to show more promise, they’ll surely score at some point.

Embarrassing from Saka just now. :rolleyes:

[Niall_Quinn]

Saka is Liverpool's best defender, by a mile.

[Letters]

Oh good. Martinelli on. He’s actually pretty good.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It has surely been proven we're not getting a goal with how we are at the top end of the pitch right now.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Nelson off, Martinelli on.

[Niall_Quinn]

What sport does Odegard play?

[Marc Overmars]

Hopefully the Martinelli from last season turns up.

[Niall_Quinn]

First bit of decent play I've seen, by Martinelli. But nobody in there.

[Niall_Quinn]

Can you imagine what Shearer would do to either of this lot? And he'd probably kick somebody in the head as a bonus.

[Letters]

Hopefully the Martinelli from last season turns up.

Bloody awful corner from him but overall he’s looked like an upgrade in that position

[Niall_Quinn]

Not sure corners like that can be forgiven. It's beyond the pale.

[Marc Overmars]

Committing a lot forward now and you wouldn’t be surprised if we concede from a counter.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well done ref.

[Niall_Quinn]

Elliot rightly booked for his ridiculous haircut.

[Letters]

Saka :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

Saka. :lol:

So bad.

[Niall_Quinn]

They're saying it - it's not just me, even the paid blind men can see it. Barnes, Rush. LOL. Dream on.

[Niall_Quinn]

All it will take is for Saka to get a goal and it'll be "England's brightest star...!"

[Marc Overmars]

Some kids on for Liverpool now.

Bit embarrassing if we don’t get the win now.

[Niall_Quinn]

That Odegard bloke. It's comical, and sad. Nice controlled football from Saliba though. He's got the markings of s decent player.

[Letters]

Great save by Ramsdale.

[Niall_Quinn]

Thank fuck it was Ramsdale there, right?

[Marc Overmars]

Jota hits the bar :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Nunez is fucking hilarious. I'm actually enjoying this now - it is THAT bad.

[Marc Overmars]

Diaz scores :lol:

Pathetic.

[Letters]

:lol: 1-0 Liverpool

And that’s the end of that.

[Marc Overmars]

Kiwior own goal :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oh dear.

[Niall_Quinn]

Bound to be some random goal at some point. At least one of our lads eventually hit the net.

[Letters]

See? We can put the ball in the net.
Not the right net, admittedly, but it’s a start

[Marc Overmars]

I suspect there may be some boos at full time and to be honest it’s warranted.

[Niall_Quinn]

I hope somebody reminded Eddie where the opposition goal is. Because he forgets between matches. If he gets his arse up there, competes for the ball (without breaking his fingernails) and competes then this Liverpool "defence" should be an easy bitch.

[Letters]

Oh this is good. Now we’re passing it around in midfield.
Very nicely.
Well done us!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh this is good. Now we’re passing it around in midfield.
Very nicely.
Well done us!

Liverpool are going to sit deep and defend the lead, they aren’t going to give us any space.

[Niall_Quinn]

A few minutes back, Ramsdale had the ball, he was looking around for an option, EVERY player had his back to him, trotting up the field to get back into their no-variation, nailed on positions. So he hoofed it and the ball was lost. If you can't figure simple tuff out like that (I'm looking at YOU Rice, and you Captain Odegard) then you don't have much hope.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Why are we waiting so long to bring on Smith Rowe and Trossard

[Letters]

Chance to put a quality ball in.
I think we know how this ends

[Letters]

Chance to put a quality ball in.
I think we know how this ends

Alright. Fair enough, that actually was a decent ball

[Niall_Quinn]

What a pathetic free kick.

[Niall_Quinn]

Hold on - what happened to the usual 62 mins extra time?

[Niall_Quinn]

Martinelli now taking 4 touches when his first touch should be to kick the ball on and use his pace. Very silly.

[Marc Overmars]

0-2 Diaz :haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

Well, to be fair, first bit of skill from Liverpool today. Although it could have been a statistical anomaly.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Really grim.

[Globalgunner]

Stick a fork in it. This season is done.

[Marc Overmars]

Quite pathetic really. Can’t make excuses about low blocks and whatever else today.

[Letters]

Off you fuck, Arteta :wave:

[Niall_Quinn]

Lost to a very poor team today. But they'll all still get paid big money. And there may even be fans who buy the white kit. So it's actually a win for the only people who count in modern football.

[Marc Overmars]

Saka needs some proper competition for his place.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Off you fuck, Arteta :wave:

Sorry has someone hacked into your account, or are you just being a teensy bit hypocritical ?

Even NQ is consistent in his argument

[HCZ_Reborn]

Saka needs some proper competition for his place.

From who?

[Marc Overmars]

From who?

Don’t know but he’s absolutely shit at the moment and knowing his position is safe every week has probably contributed to that.

[Niall_Quinn]

And now the fantasy analysis that tries to create a professional match out of the shitshow that occurred today. LOL. It's like one scratch card winner taunting the guy who bought the prior ticket. Two shit-kicking waste of space teams who have no clue how to play the game. BUT - there's a lot of money riding on it, so let's all pretend.

[Niall_Quinn]

From who?

Exactly.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Don’t know but he’s absolutely shit at the moment and knowing his position is safe every week has probably contributed to that.

As IBK noted the other week, the problem is less Saka than it is Martinelli. You look at how many teams have doubled up on Saka and that Argentine thug McAllister smashed him in the ribs today. But Martinelli has more space but he isn’t using his pace to good effect. I don’t think Arteta started Nelson today simply to give him game time, it’s abundantly clear Martinelli is bang out of form.

We did have an option with Pepe, but ultimately I think the priority was to get him off the wage bill.

[Letters]

Sorry has someone hacked into your account, or are you just being a teensy bit hypocritical ?

Even NQ is consistent in his argument

Maintaining the same position as evidence mounts up against that position isn’t consistency, it’s madness or cognitive dissonance. I get annoyed when politicians endlessly double down on their positions as it’s shown more and more clearly they’re wrong, I’d have far more time for them if they admitted they got things wrong and changed tack.
I may be overreacting in the heat of the moment but I’ve seen a few games recently and it’s bloody painful. How can we spend this much money and be this shit? I called it at half time, it was obvious we were never going to score and Liverpool would probably do so at some point when they got their act together.

[Niall_Quinn]

Maintaining the same position as evidence mounts up against that position isn’t consistency, it’s madness or cognitive dissonance. I get annoyed when politicians endlessly double down on their positions as it’s shown more and more clearly they’re wrong, I’d have far more time for them if they admitted they got things wrong and changed tack.
I may be overreacting in the heat of the moment but I’ve seen a few games recently and it’s bloody painful. How can we spend this much money and be this shit? I called it at half time, it was obvious we were never going to score and Liverpool would probably do so at some point when they got their act together.

Priceless.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Maintaining the same position as evidence mounts up against that position isn’t consistency, it’s madness or cognitive dissonance. I get annoyed when politicians endlessly double down on their positions as it’s shown more and more clearly they’re wrong, I’d have far more time for them if they admitted they got things wrong and changed tack.
I may be overreacting in the heat of the moment but I’ve seen a few games recently and it’s bloody painful. How can we spend this much money and be this shit? I called it at half time, it was obvious we were never going to score and Liverpool would probably do so at some point when they got their act together.

No im simply pointing out that you finger wagged at other people who called this problem a few games ago


Now did I panic at the beginning of the season? For sure but somehow as autumn came we were getting results that belied our performance.

The irony today is that this was the best we’ve played in months. But after the West Ham game and the Fulham game those of us who could see the writing on the wall were belittled by you.

I’m not even angry about today. Take away the fact that Arteta should have been more proactive with his substitutions the performance was improved from the last two games.


But we’ve all cried out for the need for a striker, not just for going for the title but simply because we knew it could not be assumed that Martinelli, Saka and Odegaard would repeat their feats from last season. We’ve scored five goals in the last seven games….and this is not a recent thing…both in 20/21 and 21/22 we had these same goal droughts. And despite this we have never bought an out and out striker. Jesus? Trossard? Haven’t (that was predictive text but thought that seems appropriate) none of them are strikers.

[Marc Overmars]

As IBK noted the other week, the problem is less Saka than it is Martinelli. You look at how many teams have doubled up on Saka and that Argentine thug McAllister smashed him in the ribs today. But Martinelli has more space but he isn’t using his pace to good effect. I don’t think Arteta started Nelson today simply to give him game time, it’s abundantly clear Martinelli is bang out of form.

We did have an option with Pepe, but ultimately I think the priority was to get him off the wage bill.

Martinelli even from the start with Arteta has had to earn his place. Saka is untouchable and quite frankly I don’t really care that he’s given special attention by opponents because on his day he’s more than capable of winning games for us. So if you stop him you’ll stop us more often than not.

I’m just sick of the front line at the moment, it’s excruciating to watch how feeble they’ve become.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Martinelli even from the start with Arteta has had to earn his place. Saka is untouchable and quite frankly I don’t really care that he’s given special attention by opponents because on his day he’s more than capable of winning games for us.

I’m just sick of the front line at the moment, it’s just excruciating to watch how feeble they’ve become.

It’s really nothing new is it, we have gone through these spells under Arteta constantly because he hasn’t prioritised signing Attacking players/strikers. Don’t get me wrong I’d have dropped Saka for today, but we’ve also been crying out for a striker and a winger on the right side.

[Marc Overmars]

It’s really nothing new is it, we have gone through these spells under Arteta constantly because he hasn’t prioritised signing Attacking players/strikers. Don’t get me wrong I’d have dropped Saka for today, but we’ve also been crying out for a striker and a winger on the right side.

It’s not new but after last season I felt we had developed a sharper edge that these guys would carry on with. Guess that’s looking like a bit of an anomaly now.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I'd rather have Martinelli up front than on the wing right now.

Not really a long term option I think but I seriously doubt we'll do anything significant in January, transfers in.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'd rather have Martinelli up front than on the wing right now.

Not really a long term option I think but I seriously doubt we'll do anything significant in January, transfers in.

We can’t, we don’t have the money and unlike city or Chelsea we aren’t going to cheat our way around FFP

[Marc Overmars]

Brentford will pull our pants down for Toney so I’d rather we just kept the powder dry until the summer. Though of course we run the risk of missing out on the top 4 if the form continues to spiral but I don’t think Toney is necessarily going to be a game changer for us. We’ve suspected all season that we don’t have enough up front to win the league and now that’s become quite obvious.

Osimhen would represent a real departure to what we’ve been used to signing up front so if there’s a possibility that could happen I would like us to push the boat out for him.

As for the remainder of this season, Arteta needs to find some way to make it work again because although they’re horribly out of form, majority of our forwards are capable of much better.

[Mac76]

I guess when you’ve just spent £65m on one you have to back them.
Honestly, the amount we’ve spent and we have no one of quality up front.
BBC pretending we’ve been good :lol:

The money we spent on him is exactly the problem, if he'd been £20m it wouldn't have been a big deal

Me and others actually at the game thought we were good in the first half apart obvs from failing to score, Nelaon , Ram and Jorg were all good to see

But we need to buy a striker, it's glaring now

[Mac76]

Brentford will pull our pants down for Toney so I’d rather we just kept the powder dry until the summer. Though of course we run the risk of missing out on the top 4 if the form continues to spiral but I don’t think Toney is necessarily going to be a game changer for us. We’ve suspected all season that we don’t have enough up front to win the league and now that’s become quite obvious.

Osimhen would represent a real departure to what we’ve been used to signing up front so if there’s a possibility that could happen I would like us to push the boat out for him.

As for the remainder of this season, Arteta needs to find some way to make it work again because although they’re horribly out of form, majority of our forwards are capable of much better.

I think we ahould break the bank for Toney, he'd bring us more goals immediqtely I think, Jesus isn't a striker, Havertz is poor and Eddie is shit

If we can shift some crap like Suaraz we could maybe do it

[Letters]

No im simply pointing out that you finger wagged at other people who called this problem a few games ago
Well, yes. We were top at Christmas, thanks to an excellent performance at Anfield. A well deserved point away at a team who are widely tipped to be title contenders. So the West Ham result, while very disappointing, was no reason to lose our collective shit and push the panic button. Early in that game we were spanking them, the somewhat controversial goal allowed them to sit back and our lack of quality up front showed. It was a bad day in the office for sure, but it was but one game. If we over-reacted to every individual result or performance, good or bad, and we'd be all over the shop every season. I even said to you in the ensuing conversation that if we dropped points at Fulham I would probably take a different view. I didn't see that one but it was a poor result and by all accounts an awful performance. So the alarm bells starting ringing. And then there was today. With the players they had out they were there for the taking. And as we discussed earlier in this thread we were actually playing quite well. It was a better performance than West Ham. But the end result was the same, for the same reason. We had so many chances today - much better chances than we did against West Ham. And we just couldn't score. It's bloody awful. There have been ongoing concerns this season about the lack of quality up front but we seemed to be getting away with it. As I said, we were top at Christmas so we were doing something right. So I continue to believe that the reaction to the West Ham result were premature. Sure, you can pat yourself on the back if you like that I'm coming round to your way of thinking but you've got a shit-ton of predictions wrong this season. And it's not hypocrisy because I'm reacting to a run of results, not a single one. I may still be over-reacting, but we were so painful to watch today and against West Ham. Confidence seems to have been completely drained from the team.

We all knew we needed a striker. Arteta put a lot of eggs in the Havertz basket and now he has football pie all over his shirt. #partridge
Overall I like where Arteta has brought us. He made us into proper title contenders which we haven't been for a long time. But he's spent a lot of money and we've gone backwards since last season.

[Letters]

Me and others actually at the game thought we were good in the first half apart obvs from failing to score.
I mean, we were good in the first half, but the failing to score thing is quite a big thing in football.
I'd almost prefer to see Angeball - you score 3, we'll score 4. It's not going to win Spurs the title but at least it's good to watch. It's just painful to watch us right now...and it's still not going to win us the title.

:ilt:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well, yes. We were top at Christmas, thanks to an excellent performance at Anfield. A well deserved point away at a team who are widely tipped to be title contenders. So the West Ham result, while very disappointing, was no reason to lose our collective shit and push the panic button. Early in that game we were spanking them, the somewhat controversial goal allowed them to sit back and our lack of quality up front showed. It was a bad day in the office for sure, but it was but one game. If we over-reacted to every individual result or performance, good or bad, and we'd be all over the shop every season. I even said to you in the ensuing conversation that if we dropped points at Fulham I would probably take a different view. I didn't see that one but it was a poor result and by all accounts an awful performance. So the alarm bells starting ringing. And then there was today. With the players they had out they were there for the taking. And as we discussed earlier in this thread we were actually playing quite well. It was a better performance than West Ham. But the end result was the same, for the same reason. We had so many chances today - much better chances than we did against West Ham. And we just couldn't score. It's bloody awful. There have been ongoing concerns this season about the lack of quality up front but we seemed to be getting away with it. As I said, we were top at Christmas so we were doing something right. So I continue to believe that the reaction to the West Ham result were premature. Sure, you can pat yourself on the back if you like that I'm coming round to your way of thinking but you've got a shit-ton of predictions wrong this season. And it's not hypocrisy because I'm reacting to a run of results, not a single one. I may still be over-reacting, but we were so painful to watch today and against West Ham. Confidence seems to have been completely drained from the team.

We all knew we needed a striker. Arteta put a lot of eggs in the Havertz basket and now he has football pie all over his shirt. #partridge
Overall I like where Arteta has brought us. He made us into proper title contenders which we haven't been for a long time. But he's spent a lot of money and we've gone backwards since last season.

No im not being smug at all, I get no pleasure over having my concerns confirmed. Im saying I just resent it a wee bit when the same person who acts like I am being hysterical a week ago (when I simply stated that failure to sign a striker could fatally damage our top four hopes) was far more vitriolic today than i was against either West Ham or Fulham.

This is a club that takes up a great deal of time in the lives of all of us on here (well with the exception of the Shaqiri is Boss fella but he’s honest about where his loyalties lie) there’s no doubt we all have the propensity to become emotional, irrational at times but equally I know when I’m being irrational (like the start of the season) and when I’m soberly voicing my concerns.

[Letters]

I never disagreed with your concerns but up till Christmas we were largely getting away with it. Like I said, we were top.
So reactions to West Ham seemed like over-reactions. It was a one off game and while the concerns about the lack of a proper striker were laid bare in that game, it was but one game. We'd been doing OK before that, there was no immediate reason to think we wouldn't pick ourselves up in the next game. But we didn't, it's been a complete shit show since. I think a run of 3 games where we've failed to score is a little more reasonable a basis to react than one game. But as I've said, I may still be overreacting.

[Mac76]

I never disagreed with your concerns but up till Christmas we were largely getting away with it. Like I said, we were top.
So reactions to West Ham seemed like over-reactions. It was a one off game and while the concerns about the lack of a proper striker were laid bare in that game, it was but one game. We'd been doing OK before that, there was no immediate reason to think we wouldn't pick ourselves up in the next game. But we didn't, it's been a complete shit show since. I think a run of 3 games where we've failed to score is a little more reasonable a basis to react than one game. But as I've said, I may still be overreacting.

No, you're essentially admitting that you underreact - some of us can see the direction of travel more clearly and call for change, by your own admission you don't watch games so often, so fair enough if it's not as clear. But to me and many others it's clear that we're winning nothing unless an improvement of some kind is made in the management team - one example, our corners were all cack again today, how can any manager not see that's a problem? :shrug:

[Marc Overmars]

We haven’t passed the eye test for most of the season and now the results are baring that out. I don’t believe we’re a bad team but the forwards are horribly out of form and the new look midfield has not worked. Rice is a fantastic player but it’s a one man show, he can’t do it all. I actually felt Jorginho played well yesterday and I would like to see him in the middle because he has the vision that Rice perhaps lacks. On paper they could work well together.

The season is far from over but it’s obvious there needs to be a monumental improvement for us to have a conversation about a successful season.

[Mac76]

Rice was really dissappointing yesterday, with Jorg there he should have been prepared to take the ball further upfield and be more enterprising in his passing but he was very conservative and defensive

[Letters]

No, you're essentially admitting that you underreact
I think that's fair, but neither over-reaction or under-reaction are sensible. I admit I err a little to the latter, but not as much as some err to the former.
Individual games tell you very little.
The Luton game was a good example - was that "the stuff of champions", winning late in a game where we'd been behind, a never say die spirit? Or was it a worrying sign that we'll win nothing with a 'keeper who throws 2 goals in, and worrying that we struggled to beat a team like Luton.
At the time it was impossible to tell.

Sure, there have been indications that there are weaknesses which would prevent us from winning the league, we've been discussing how blunt we are up front all season. But we were top at Christmas - having beaten City at home and getting a very creditable draw at Anfield. So we seemed to be managing to get goals despite the lack of a really top striker, and our defence was looking solid. Overall it looked like a side who would challenge, even if doubts about us actually being able to win the title remained.

To claim there were doubts about a top 4 finish one game after that performance and result at Anfield seemed - and still seems - like an over-reaction.
From the first half of the season it looked like us, City and Liverpool would be title contenders. Villa and Spurs are doing well but my view was (and remains) that they don't have the legs to sustain a challenge. It wasn't just me saying that, most people I spoke to felt that way.


some of us can see the direction of travel more clearly and call for change
You thought we'd be top at Christmas and then fall away? I'm struggling to believe your foresight as as 20:20 as you're claiming.
I think we all agreed we'd struggle to win the league without a top striker, I don't believe anyone foresaw the utter shitshow we've seen since Christmas.


our corners were all cack again today, how can any manager not see that's a problem? :shrug:
Don't we have the best set piece record in the league? They gave that stat out yesterday and I've heard it before.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Rice was really dissappointing yesterday, with Jorg there he should have been prepared to take the ball further upfield and be more enterprising in his passing but he was very conservative and defensive

IMO the only thing Arteta got right was starting Jorg & Rice together. We looked solid and controlled and won back most balls as our midfield was petty balanced. This was similar to when we started of this season and he played this combo and at other times putting Partey in the mix.

The thing about Rice is he is definitely a quality player and makes the team harder to beat...but like some of us noticed from day ONE, he adds little when it comes to creativity or adding bite to our attacking moves. Its so clear that he is trying to learn that part of the game with the team but this should have been noticed before we bought him as its no bolt from the blue.

If Arteta's aim was to harden our midfield, Rice was a good way to go. But not pairing him with someone like a Kudus (who was available) or anyone else who could cover up for his deficiencies and give him on the game tutoring was stupid. Thinking a player like Havertz who was tried and tested and proven to excel in no important stat, would be a good pairing...was just effing crazy!!

I hope in the coming games we see more of Jorginho till Partey recovers. I'm not saying he should play 90mins, but I like what he offers, he's definitely a more all round player, even though he is coming to end of his career.

[Letters]

Rice wasn't the problem yesterday. We created plenty of chances, we just don't have anyone who can reliably put the ball into the net.
In the second half I couldn't even be bothered to get remotely excited when we went forward, it seemed unlikely we'd be able to apply the finishing touch and it became increasingly clear that Liverpool would just pick us off the first chance they got. Didn't quite work out that way, Ramsdale actually saved it, the first goal when it came was somewhat unfortunate. But the end result was the same.

[IBK]

IMO the only thing Arteta got right was starting Jorg & Rice together. We looked solid and controlled and won back most balls as our midfield was petty balanced. This was similar to when we started of this season and he played this combo and at other times putting Partey in the mix.

The thing about Rice is he is definitely a quality player and makes the team harder to beat...but like some of us noticed from day ONE, he adds little when it comes to creativity or adding bite to our attacking moves. Its so clear that he is trying to learn that part of the game with the team but this should have been noticed before we bought him as its no bolt from the blue.

If Arteta's aim was to harden our midfield, Rice was a good way to go. But not pairing him with someone like a Kudus (who was available) or anyone else who could cover up for his deficiencies and give him on the game tutoring was stupid. Thinking a player like Havertz who was tried and tested and proven to excel in no important stat, would be a good pairing...was just effing crazy!!

I hope in the coming games we see more of Jorginho till Partey recovers. I'm not saying he should play 90mins, but I like what he offers, he's definitely a more all round player, even though he is coming to end of his career.

Our front line is an embarrassing shambles and Arteta's lack of investment in forward areas of the pitch and lack of options there is coming back to bite us. That coupled with the fact that this 'control' obsession that sees us constantly too high up the pitch and begs for the opposition to counter on us has made a former impregnable defence look like a sieve.

We were schooled by Liverpool's ball delivery and scoring ability yesterday - all with them playing a weakened side.

I am at a loss to understand why players - Martinelli; Odegard, Saka - who were the reasons why we were so effective for 2/3rds of last season have regressed so much in terms of finishing. A collective lack of confidence? fatigue? There seemed to be more space at times for us yesterday than there has in previous games but no composure at all. Its sickening to have to concede that the majority of pundits had it right all along - we remain the flaky team that doesn't have what it takes to challenge for trophies despite the money we have spent.

[Mac76]

Our front line is an embarrassing shambles and Arteta's lack of investment in forward areas of the pitch and lack of options there is coming back to bite us. That coupled with the fact that this 'control' obsession that sees us constantly too high up the pitch and begs for the opposition to counter on us has made a former impregnable defence look like a sieve.

We were schooled by Liverpool's ball delivery and scoring ability yesterday - all with them playing a weakened side.

I am at a loss to understand why players - Martinelli; Odegard, Saka - who were the reasons why we were so effective for 2/3rds of last season have regressed so much in terms of finishing. A collective lack of confidence? fatigue? There seemed to be more space at times for us yesterday than there has in previous games but no composure at all. Its sickening to have to concede that the majority of pundits had it right all along - we remain the flaky team that doesn't have what it takes to challenge for trophies despite the money we have spent.

yeah that's pretty much on the money, though I think Nelson played well, it's not his fault if Havertz isn't up to it and he had Kiwior behind him

[Letters]

yeah that's pretty much on the money, though I think Nelson played well, it's not his fault if Havertz isn't up to it and he had Kiwior behind him

He might have overall played well (not sure I have much of a view about that tbh), but that early chance with that great ball from Ramsdale. The lack of composure is embarrassing from all of them.

[HCZ_Reborn]

yeah that's pretty much on the money, though I think Nelson played well, it's not his fault if Havertz isn't up to it and he had Kiwior behind him

He didn’t though…constant first touch of a rapist

He didn’t look up to it at this level. I like Nelson because of his work ethic and he brings a bit direct dimension to our game but technically he looks every inch the ex academy boy who hasn’t really got it

[Marc Overmars]

He didn’t though…constant first touch of a rapist

He didn’t look up to it at this level. I like Nelson because of his work ethic and he brings a bit direct dimension to our game but technically he looks every inch the ex academy boy who hasn’t really got it

It’s like his brain is doing one thing while his legs are doing another. Dribbles like an amateur and doesn’t look after the ball very well at all. I’m absolutely certain he’s only here for the homegrown quota and FFP reasons because he’s so far away from being considered as a first team regular.

He needs to be sold in the summer and we need to find ourselves a better wide technician.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

He didn’t though…constant first touch of a rapist

He didn’t look up to it at this level. I like Nelson because of his work ethic and he brings a bit direct dimension to our game but technically he looks every inch the ex academy boy who hasn’t really got it

Unfortunately I've got to agree with this.

Always wanted Nelson to excel but he's not taking the chances he's getting from Arteta.

Even comparing him to other academy products like Iwobi and Wilock looks silly now.

I think we need to close his chapter with us.

[Mac76]

He didn’t though…constant first touch of a rapist

He didn’t look up to it at this level. I like Nelson because of his work ethic and he brings a bit direct dimension to our game but technically he looks every inch the ex academy boy who hasn’t really got it

Totally disagree I'm afraid, he was one of our better players on the day and did enough to gain further starts

As for your constant references to sexual deviance, have you ever thought of getting psychiatric help before your disturbing obsession gets out of hand (assuming it hasn't already)...?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Totally disagree I'm afraid, he was one of our better players on the day and did enough to gain further starts

As for your constant references to sexual deviance, have you ever thought of getting psychiatric help before your disturbing obsession gets out of hand (assuming it hasn't already)...?

I’m going to assume from this that you don’t really have anything substantive to add to your point. Though in my experience people who feel the need to lecture others on misogynistic or intemperate language are usually the dark horses

It also appears that I wasn’t the only one less than impressed by Nelson. I have no problem in him coming on in games to add a bit of energy but given the opposition we were playing he did im afraid look out of his depth, and Alexander Arnold was clearly far more troubled by Martinelli when he came on.

I thought it was only fair to give him a start especially as Martinelli is massively out of form, but the gulf in quality was quite evident

[Mac76]

He isn't the same player as Martinelli, I'm not saying he's the best ever but he showed he can do a good job as a squad player and deserves more starts IMO Martinelli had a couple of decent moments when he cMe om but again showed the flaws he's had recently

Nelson was better on the ball than people here are saying and what you probably didn't see was that he also took up some good positions off the ball but the others didn't get him the pass often enough, again Rice was particularly guilty of this

As for your 'not the only one' point, people i spoke to during and after the match all said he did well - and these were the people at the game

On the sexual deviance thing I'm not talking about whether or not it's offensive, I'm just saying you may not realise what it says about you or the rather disturbing way in which you appear to think

[HCZ_Reborn]

On the sexual deviance thing I'm not talking about whether or not it's offensive, I'm just saying you may not realise what it says about you or the rather disturbing way in which you appear to think

Or could be that you don’t know what you’re talking about. I used to work with someone who lost his job because of sexual harassment (and although I don’t know whether the particular allegations were true…but there was enough I did know that would suggest to me that they absolutely were) and this was someone who pretended to be all nice and friendly yet couple of times tried to say things to me sotto voice that were a bit dodgy about people we knew and I told him it wasn’t on.

Using rapist as a pejorative to describe a horrible first touch (which he consistently showed and I’m sorry but he did) is not a particularly pleasant analogy, but it speaks more to your over sensitivity than it does to sexual deviancy on my part. But as we’ve established many times when it comes to understanding people you’re not especially very good at it.

Now as to his movement off the ball, well there I can concede that I’m more dependent on the whims of the camera than you were. But I’m equally dependent on you as being reliable and honest in telling me that people around you said how well he played.

They might well have done, but equally in my mind it’s just as likely you would claim this had that not been the case. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume for the sake of argument they did say it. Nelson as I’ve already stated there’s nothing wrong with his industry, he will work hard he will make himself available and he will run…no question this is commendable but technically severely lacking.

[Niall_Quinn]

Our front line is an embarrassing shambles and Arteta's lack of investment in forward areas of the pitch and lack of options there is coming back to bite us. That coupled with the fact that this 'control' obsession that sees us constantly too high up the pitch and begs for the opposition to counter on us has made a former impregnable defence look like a sieve.

We were schooled by Liverpool's ball delivery and scoring ability yesterday - all with them playing a weakened side.

I am at a loss to understand why players - Martinelli; Odegard, Saka - who were the reasons why we were so effective for 2/3rds of last season have regressed so much in terms of finishing. A collective lack of confidence? fatigue? There seemed to be more space at times for us yesterday than there has in previous games but no composure at all. Its sickening to have to concede that the majority of pundits had it right all along - we remain the flaky team that doesn't have what it takes to challenge for trophies despite the money we have spent.

Do you know anything about professional rowing? I've only been getting into it for the last 3 years but in that time I've come to appreciate what teamwork actually is, as opposed to the increasingly individual focus in football. But getting into it, I mean observing of course. I'd be dead after 2 minutes if I tried to actually do it, such is the excellence, selflessness and supreme conditioning required at the top level. When I watch Odegard take the ball, look up and then misplace a pass (for the 20th time) I laugh at how unprofessional and how selfish and uncommitted he quite obviously is. We could say that's Arteta's failure to motivate him, but if he can't motivate himself to respect the shirt and his teammates as a base, minimum standard then how will a manager get anything useful out of him. People were rolling their eyes when I mentioned the appalling kit. We'll you'd never see Oxford or Cambridge out on the river on race day in anything other than their traditional kit, because that's a small piece of a thousand pieces of tradition and respect and identity that makes those boats and crews excellent before a blade is dropped. You don't get anything like that coming from this Arsenal cash machine brimming with mercenaries. So maybe they fancy playing one day, maybe they don't another. The rowing crews do it for the sport, the footballers do it for the cash. It couldn't be more obvious and it's the explanation for why a player like Saka can be unplayable one day and distracted the next. He's not a real professional and he doesn't have sufficient respect for his team. I'm not just picking on him - every modern player is the same. 65 million for that chav who strolled around the park and can't even kick a ball straight (I bet he could if he had an ounce of respect for his team or a speck of pride in himself). And then 200K+ in his pocket as a reward? So why's he going to burst his blood vessels and collapse from exhaustion?

[Niall_Quinn]

I’m going to assume from this that you don’t really have anything substantive to add to your point. Though in my experience people who feel the need to lecture others on misogynistic or intemperate language are usually the dark horses

It also appears that I wasn’t the only one less than impressed by Nelson. I have no problem in him coming on in games to add a bit of energy but given the opposition we were playing he did im afraid look out of his depth, and Alexander Arnold was clearly far more troubled by Martinelli when he came on.

I thought it was only fair to give him a start especially as Martinelli is massively out of form, but the gulf in quality was quite evident

Nelson was fucking terrible. If that's the standard coming through the ranks then get the chequebook out pronto. I think some people get carried away just because a player will occasionally move at more than 1 mph or push a ball on and try to beat a defender. Well 10/10 for ambition, but when you have no talent it's just quicker to pass to the opposition and get it over and done with. And yes, I did watch him in particular because I haven't seen much of him and was interested to see if he could provide more than the slumbering millionaires who snuggle in the regular first team. Nothing at all. I would say more of the same, but it's actually less.

[IBK]

Do you know anything about professional rowing? I've only been getting into it for the last 3 years but in that time I've come to appreciate what teamwork actually is, as opposed to the increasingly individual focus in football. But getting into it, I mean observing of course. I'd be dead after 2 minutes if I tried to actually do it, such is the excellence, selflessness and supreme conditioning required at the top level. When I watch Odegard take the ball, look up and then misplace a pass (for the 20th time) I laugh at how unprofessional and how selfish and uncommitted he quite obviously is. We could say that's Arteta's failure to motivate him, but if he can't motivate himself to respect the shirt and his teammates as a base, minimum standard then how will a manager get anything useful out of him. People were rolling their eyes when I mentioned the appalling kit. We'll you'd never see Oxford or Cambridge out on the river on race day in anything other than their traditional kit, because that's a small piece of a thousand pieces of tradition and respect and identity that makes those boats and crews excellent before a blade is dropped. You don't get anything like that coming from this Arsenal cash machine brimming with mercenaries. So maybe they fancy playing one day, maybe they don't another. The rowing crews do it for the sport, the footballers do it for the cash. It couldn't be more obvious and it's the explanation for why a player like Saka can be unplayable one day and distracted the next. He's not a real professional and he doesn't have sufficient respect for his team. I'm not just picking on him - every modern player is the same. 65 million for that chav who strolled around the park and can't even kick a ball straight (I bet he could if he had an ounce of respect for his team or a speck of pride in himself). And then 200K+ in his pocket as a reward? So why's he going to burst his blood vessels and collapse from exhaustion?

I know a bit about rowing - as I did it myself at Uni.


Your comments re mentality in other sports are fine to a point, but I have to disagree that the players you have highlighted - and indeed many of the other players in our team lack professionalism/committment. For me, Odegard is perhaps our most professional player and I don't see his lack of goals (the other parts of his game have been generally of a high standard) as selfishness or lack of committment. Similarly, I cannnot look at Saka - bearing in mind his meteoric rise over the past couple of seasons - and see anything other than a model professional young man. By all accounts he is one of the most disciplined and committed players in the squad in terms of his off field preparation for games. Put simply few people acsend to elite professional sport without having massive committment and professionalism as part of their DNA.


You can say that footballers are over-rewarded for their talents compared to other sports and I agree with this. But its also the case that a minute fraction of the young people who aspire to be professional footballers ever get anywhere near the riches of the higher leagues.


I don't buy the idea that Arteta picks any player who has not shown up in training - if anything its the opposite. His persistence with Eddie; Reiss Nelson; Havertz a below par Ben White; speak to an over emphasis on effort and an under appreciation of individualism/independent spark. Similarly, I feel that our current malaise is due partly to over coaching - both in terms of physical and mental fatigue, and suppression of independent thought/instinctiveness. To me, Saka looks like he is trying to follow instructions whenever he receives the ball rather than doing what comes naturally to him. It has cost him a second of reaction time and its not difficult to imagine that he has been drilled into playing it safe and not surrendering possession unless there's a high chance of scoring. The same goes for other members of our front line. Trossard in particular looks a shadow of the lethal finisher we saw at times last season and Martinelli is not getting shots off. This conservatism means that scoring opportunities are fewer and further between, as we allow time for opposition defences to set. We are so scared of turnovers that we ignore our ability to recover possession and thereby create space and unpredictability - yet ironically we inevitably give the ball away anyway having to play in such cramped spaces.


As for our collective lack of finishing - my personal theory is that the players who do have scoring opportunities often feel the weight of pressure caused by (1) the effort that has gone into making the opportunity - feeling that they might let the collective down; or (2) the knowledge that there is so much riding on often scant scoring opportunities. This might be regarded as 'unprofessional' - you could say that a forward should know where the goal is and have the technique to finish - but in the real world there is a mental element to executing properly. We see this in every single sport, where talented players lack the mindset or composure at key moments - however many thousands of hours they have spent in training.


We are still a young team, and it is arguable that the Citeh juggernaut and the pressure of expectation this season have racked up the pressure levels that are finding us out in the key moments. This to me is why Liverpool - with far more experience - and Villa/Spurs - with the freedom of no expectations at all - are doing so well. I think that Arteta would do well to try to take the pressure off his players and allow them to express themselves a bit more - playing a system that does not introduce such high jeopardy for counter attacks when it breaks down.


Our problems are IMHO in the head; not the heart, or the graft.

[IBK]

Nelson was fucking terrible. If that's the standard coming through the ranks then get the chequebook out pronto. I think some people get carried away just because a player will occasionally move at more than 1 mph or push a ball on and try to beat a defender. Well 10/10 for ambition, but when you have no talent it's just quicker to pass to the opposition and get it over and done with. And yes, I did watch him in particular because I haven't seen much of him and was interested to see if he could provide more than the slumbering millionaires who snuggle in the regular first team. Nothing at all. I would say more of the same, but it's actually less.

Agreed with you that Nelson has been praised because of his dynamism rather than any end product. However that speaks volumes for our sluggish ball progression generally, and lets face it lack of end product is universl ATM. If we think about it - those moments that quicken the pulse are diminishing generally this season. Sterile possession is pointless.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Agreed with you that Nelson has been praised because of his dynamism rather than any end product. However that speaks volumes for our sluggish ball progression generally, and lets face it lack of end product is universl ATM. If we think about it - those moments that quicken the pulse are diminishing generally this season. Sterile possession is pointless.

I would argue that the Liverpool game presented us with more than just sterile possession. I think ultimately we ran out of ideas and reverted to type but actually was quite impressed with how we mixed up the play a bit. But of course, casting a wider net I would argue that our play has been sterile…never remotely looked like getting back into the game against Fulham . Not that I’m comparing us to Guardiola’s Barcelona, but there was the same familiar bluntness when things weren’t going for them. You look at the 2012 semi final against Chelsea and Barcelona for all their possession play had about as much penetration as a marshmallow Willy.

[Mac76]

Using rapist as a pejorative to describe a horrible first touch (which he consistently showed and I’m sorry but he did) is not a particularly pleasant analogy, but it speaks more to your over sensitivity than it does to sexual deviancy on my part. But as we’ve established many times when it comes to understanding people you’re not especially very good at it.



there's a million different ways you could describe a poor touch but you chose that one - something which i suspect wouldn't even occur to most people, yet alone be the first example they chose - that's what's disturbing, not the actual content per se - perhaps you can understand that now?

[Niall_Quinn]

I know a bit about rowing - as I did it myself at Uni.


Your comments re mentality in other sports are fine to a point, but I have to disagree that the players you have highlighted - and indeed many of the other players in our team lack professionalism/committment. For me, Odegard is perhaps our most professional player and I don't see his lack of goals (the other parts of his game have been generally of a high standard) as selfishness or lack of committment. Similarly, I cannnot look at Saka - bearing in mind his meteoric rise over the past couple of seasons - and see anything other than a model professional young man. By all accounts he is one of the most disciplined and committed players in the squad in terms of his off field preparation for games. Put simply few people acsend to elite professional sport without having massive committment and professionalism as part of their DNA.


You can say that footballers are over-rewarded for their talents compared to other sports and I agree with this. But its also the case that a minute fraction of the young people who aspire to be professional footballers ever get anywhere near the riches of the higher leagues.


I don't buy the idea that Arteta picks any player who has not shown up in training - if anything its the opposite. His persistence with Eddie; Reiss Nelson; Havertz a below par Ben White; speak to an over emphasis on effort and an under appreciation of individualism/independent spark. Similarly, I feel that our current malaise is due partly to over coaching - both in terms of physical and mental fatigue, and suppression of independent thought/instinctiveness. To me, Saka looks like he is trying to follow instructions whenever he receives the ball rather than doing what comes naturally to him. It has cost him a second of reaction time and its not difficult to imagine that he has been drilled into playing it safe and not surrendering possession unless there's a high chance of scoring. The same goes for other members of our front line. Trossard in particular looks a shadow of the lethal finisher we saw at times last season and Martinelli is not getting shots off. This conservatism means that scoring opportunities are fewer and further between, as we allow time for opposition defences to set. We are so scared of turnovers that we ignore our ability to recover possession and thereby create space and unpredictability - yet ironically we inevitably give the ball away anyway having to play in such cramped spaces.


As for our collective lack of finishing - my personal theory is that the players who do have scoring opportunities often feel the weight of pressure caused by (1) the effort that has gone into making the opportunity - feeling that they might let the collective down; or (2) the knowledge that there is so much riding on often scant scoring opportunities. This might be regarded as 'unprofessional' - you could say that a forward should know where the goal is and have the technique to finish - but in the real world there is a mental element to executing properly. We see this in every single sport, where talented players lack the mindset or composure at key moments - however many thousands of hours they have spent in training.


We are still a young team, and it is arguable that the Citeh juggernaut and the pressure of expectation this season have racked up the pressure levels that are finding us out in the key moments. This to me is why Liverpool - with far more experience - and Villa/Spurs - with the freedom of no expectations at all - are doing so well. I think that Arteta would do well to try to take the pressure off his players and allow them to express themselves a bit more - playing a system that does not introduce such high jeopardy for counter attacks when it breaks down.


Our problems are IMHO in the head; not the heart, or the graft.

Okay, good response. But I think I probably didn't get my point across properly. You are talking about the professionalism and commitment the individuals possess and I'm talking about the team, in fact the whole club, and how that professionalism and commitment must be aligned and focused from top to bottom, in every aspect. And I'm not highlighting Odegard for his lack of goals, even Henry couldn't score every time he touched the ball. I'm talking about the small stuff, the basics. It's astounding to see a professional, committed, highly paid, supremely privileged sportsman misplace a simple pass for the nth time, especially when execution of the simple pass could provide the opportunity to score some of those goals we are currently lacking. I find such lack of application to be unacceptable at this level. I don't expect him to take the ball from box to box, beating every opponent on the way. I expect him to execute the basics with machine like regularity because he's supposed to be the best. If you applied this lack of performance in a boat you could soon open a seafood restaurant. And the club is no better. If you can't step onto the pitch with the task at hand laser focused in your mind, your flags, banners and armour proudly on display - if you instead turn up dressed as Leeds Utd and worry about which knee you should take at the critical moment when battle is about to begin, well, start as you mean to go on.

Which Uni, btw, if you don't mind me asking? Which you probably do. Because that's what I'm following right now, university rowing.

[HCZ_Reborn]

there's a million different ways you could describe a poor touch but you chose that one - something which i suspect wouldn't even occur to most people, yet alone be the first example they chose - that's what's disturbing, not the actual content per se - perhaps you can understand that now?

Ok cards on the table, I don’t believe for a second you are genuinely disturbed by the comment. And if you genuinely believe that it denotes a prediliction for sexual violence then I have to say you’re even less of a serious person than I took you to be.

The other reason it carries no weight is because it’s not even a metaphor I came up with, and metaphors like that were common currency before it was decided by disingenuous hand wringers that they shouldn’t be.

Actual Rape is bad, off hand comments that use the word outside of the earshot of actual Rape victims is anodyne.

But you can continue down this pathway as an alternative to a footballing argument if you like. But as for saying almost no one else would think of it? Well clearly they did, and if you weren’t convinced by my using the Ad Populum argument there’s no reason why I should be compelled when you use it

[Mac76]

But as for saying almost no one else would think of it? Well clearly they did

did they? when?

i've only seen you use such examples on here, with the possible exception of NQ i can't think of anyone who would jump to using such a comparison as opposed to something more everyday

and what does it even mean anyway? how do you know how a rapist touches as opposed to anyone else?

[Niall_Quinn]

there's a million different ways you could describe a poor touch but you chose that one - something which i suspect wouldn't even occur to most people, yet alone be the first example they chose - that's what's disturbing, not the actual content per se - perhaps you can understand that now?

Why don't you address his argument instead of trying to assassinate his character in the most sinister manner? Obviously you've led a sheltered life. 10 minutes on the trading floors where I worked as a kid and you'd have been a jelly. This new drive to control language by assuming fake virtue is boring but also far more dangerous than any rapist.

[Niall_Quinn]

did they? when?

i've only seen you use such examples on here, with the possible exception of NQ i can't think of anyone who would jump to using such a comparison as opposed to something more everyday

and what does it even mean anyway? how do you know how a rapist touches as opposed to anyone else?

Yeah, I tumbled your fee-fees when I was mean to Nicola Sturgeon, that fine example of a woman you were defending. How did that one go? I was being venemous towards her not because I hate women, as you claimed, but because I had knowledge and all you have is Pavlov's bell.

[Mac76]

10 minutes on the trading floors where I worked as a kid

so you're one of those parasites who's made money off the backs of people who actually work for a living - no wonder you're such a moral vacuum

[HCZ_Reborn]

did they? when?

i've only seen you use such examples on here, with the possible exception of NQ i can't think of anyone who would jump to using such a comparison as opposed to something more everyday

and what does it even mean anyway? how do you know how a rapist touches as opposed to anyone else?


The fact that it’s a stolen metaphor for one

Just like another metaphor I used recently “the penetration of a marshmallow Willy”

You are asking me to explain idioms to you?. Honest question…are you on the spectrum?

[Niall_Quinn]

so you're one of those parasites who's made money off the backs of people who actually work for a living - no wonder you're such a moral vacuum

There you go again. I shouldn't really be disturbing you while you prove my point.

No, I was providing low pay IT support for those parasites who's[sic] made money off the backs of people who actually work for a living. The only vacuum around here is intellectual.

[IBK]

Okay, good response. But I think I probably didn't get my point across properly. You are talking about the professionalism and commitment the individuals possess and I'm talking about the team, in fact the whole club, and how that professionalism and commitment must be aligned and focused from top to bottom, in every aspect. And I'm not highlighting Odegard for his lack of goals, even Henry couldn't score every time he touched the ball. I'm talking about the small stuff, the basics. It's astounding to see a professional, committed, highly paid, supremely privileged sportsman misplace a simple pass for the nth time, especially when execution of the simple pass could provide the opportunity to score some of those goals we are currently lacking. I find such lack of application to be unacceptable at this level. I don't expect him to take the ball from box to box, beating every opponent on the way. I expect him to execute the basics with machine like regularity because he's supposed to be the best. If you applied this lack of performance in a boat you could soon open a seafood restaurant. And the club is no better. If you can't step onto the pitch with the task at hand laser focused in your mind, your flags, banners and armour proudly on display - if you instead turn up dressed as Leeds Utd and worry about which knee you should take at the critical moment when battle is about to begin, well, start as you mean to go on.

Which Uni, btw, if you don't mind me asking? Which you probably do. Because that's what I'm following right now, university rowing.

Oxford.

...as for professionalism i'm not sure you could describe Arsenal 2024 version as unprofessional. Surely as a club we are the epitome of professionalism? And are misplaced passes or wayward shots the result of a lack of application? I'd say that Arteta demands 110% application on the training pitch. In matches - I don't see our players not trying - if anything they are trying too hard and over tense/snatching at chances. At this level, minute percentages can make all the difference and as I say my money's on the mental side rather than effort/application...

[Letters]

Check out the big brains on IBK!

[Niall_Quinn]

Oxford.

...as for professionalism i'm not sure you could describe Arsenal 2024 version as unprofessional. Surely as a club we are the epitome of professionalism? And are misplaced passes or wayward shots the result of a lack of application? I'd say that Arteta demands 110% application on the training pitch. In matches - I don't see our players not trying - if anything they are trying too hard and over tense/snatching at chances. At this level, minute percentages can make all the difference and as I say my money's on the mental side rather than effort/application...

Ah, the wrong blue? Just kidding.

A wayward pass, understandable. A missed shot, understandable. Nobody is looking for perfection. But consistency is a must, I'd say. The number of times these players can't deliver very simple outcomes, even from a standing ball, a corner, a free kick, is unacceptable to me. There aren't any fine margins involved in beating the first defender with a cross or a corner. These lapses are anything but the epitome of professionalism. And this is all happening at a lower tempo than historically, and under less pressure. What would happen to these players if you let a Billy Bremner loose in the middle of the pitch? They'd disintegrate into screams and tumbles and blind panic. Yes, this is a mental problem, but that's part of the professionalism isn't it, the mind and the body? Why do they have mental problems performing the basics with proficiency? I've already said I doubt very much Arteta sends them out there to make so many simple errors. And if he's seeing proficiency on the training ground which then falls to pieces on match day then there's a serious problem with these professionals. Half of the minimum requirement is absent. Which would explain the predictable collapses you can set your watch to, and which also answers your original question, how can these players be performing like this?

[Mac76]

Yeah, I tumbled your fee-fees when I was mean to Nicola Sturgeon, that fine example of a woman you were defending. How did that one go? I was being venemous towards her not because I hate women, as you claimed, but because I had knowledge and all you have is Pavlov's bell.

I can't remember exactly what you said, I think that was a while ago, but I've a feeling I wasn't objecting to your criticising her per se, but the way you did it which i've a feeling involved making offensive remarks about her anatomy

you and HCZ love to ignore the fact I'm not objecting to you choosing to criticise someone, it's the language you use which indicates a wider hatred or obsession with particular sections of society

[Mac76]

The fact that it’s a stolen metaphor for one

Just like another metaphor I used recently “the penetration of a marshmallow Willy”

You are asking me to explain idioms to you?. Honest question…are you on the spectrum?

so you know about metaphors and idioms but not grammar it seems - 'willy' in this context isn't a proper noun and should therefore have a lower-case 'w'

and whether or not you are borrowing someone elses's phrases, that says more about the kind of people you tune into more than anything else - you're regularly referring to rapists, child molestors etc which to me shows unheathly obsession - where you got it from is your problem

as for calling me autistic, i think most people are tbh

[Niall_Quinn]

I can't remember exactly what you said, I think that was a while ago, but I've a feeling I wasn't objecting to your criticising her per se, but the way you did it which i've a feeling involved making offensive remarks about her anatomy

you and HCZ love to ignore the fact I'm not objecting to you choosing to criticise someone, it's the language you use which indicates a wider hatred or obsession with particular sections of society

You have a feeling? And another feeling? Your fee-fees? Followed by a firm conclusion, no doubt based on the prior strident methodology revealing my moral iniquity?

Well it ain't Science Jim - not as we know it.

[Niall_Quinn]

so you know about metaphors and idioms but not grammar it seems - 'willy' in this context isn't a proper noun and should therefore have a lower-case 'w'

and whether or not you are borrowing someone elses's phrases, that says more about the kind of people you tune into more than anything else - you're regularly referring to rapists, child molestors etc which to me shows unheathly obsession - where you got it from is your problem

as for calling me autistic, i think most people are tbh

Not if he got it from you. I've always had suspicions about that.

Just a feeling, but conclusive proof nonetheless.

[HCZ_Reborn]

so you know about metaphors and idioms but not grammar it seems - 'willy' in this context isn't a proper noun and should therefore have a lower-case 'w'

and whether or not you are borrowing someone elses's phrases, that says more about the kind of people you tune into more than anything else - you're regularly referring to rapists, child molestors etc which to me shows unheathly obsession - where you got it from is your problem

as for calling me autistic, i think most people are tbh

One is technical English and one is about phraseology not exactly the same things. And no most people aren’t autistic even though it is a spectrum disorder, you just appear to be higher on the spectrum than most.

So by your argument any stand up comedian who constantly makes dark jokes is more likely to participate in deviant behaviour? I don’t think for a second you believe that, I’m simply pointing out how absurd the point you’re making is.

[Mac76]

You have a feeling? And another feeling? Your fee-fees? Followed by a firm conclusion, no doubt based on the prior strident methodology revealing my moral iniquity?

Well it ain't Science Jim - not as we know it.

yes fair enough, i repeated the same phrase in one post - a heinous crime i agree

so instead let me say that as far as i can remember, that's what you said - and you're not actually denying it either...

[Mac76]

One is technical English and one is about phraseology not exactly the same things. And no most people aren’t autistic even though it is a spectrum disorder, you just appear to be higher on the spectrum than most.

So by your argument any stand up comedian who constantly makes dark jokes is more likely to participate in deviant behaviour? I don’t think for a second you believe that, I’m simply pointing out how absurd the point you’re making is.

I'm not particularly autistic but so what if i was? I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily, I think except in more extreme cases, the whole autism thing is largely overblown as it's a simple fact that each individual person thinks and acts differently from another

as for your stand up comedian i don't care, I'm talking about a guy on a messageboard who is aparrently obsessed with child-molesting and rape - I haven't actually said you do those things (although it's 'interesting' that you take it that way) but just that you seem unhealthily obsessed by it

[Niall_Quinn]

yes fair enough, i repeated the same phrase in one post - a heinous crime i agree

so instead let me say that as far as i can remember, that's what you said - and you're not actually denying it either...

So grammar school is out? We've done language, we've done science and now we're onto law. I like it! And, let me guess, if I protest too much it would confirm my guilt?

I'm going with silence is violence.

[Mac76]

So grammar school is out? We've done language, we've done science and now we're onto law. I like it! And, let me guess, if I protest too much it would confirm my guilt?

I'm going with silence is violence.

OK, let's try and pin this down with a straight question - did you choose, as i recall you did, to insult Nicola Sturgeon by way of making derogatory comments about her anatomy? yes or no?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'm not particularly autistic but so what if i was? I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily, I think except in more extreme cases, the whole autism thing is largely overblown as it's a simple fact that each individual person thinks and acts differently from another

as for your stand up comedian i don't care, I'm talking about a guy on a messageboard who is aparrently obsessed with child-molesting and rape - I haven't actually said you do those things (although it's 'interesting' that you take it that way) but just that you seem unhealthily obsessed by it

People on the spectrum often lack social cues and can’t make the delineation between hyperbole, metaphor and literal meaning

At the moment because I can’t divine text from its intended tone. I can’t tell whether you are simply too unable to give up on this line of enquiry because of stubbornness and a transparent hope that I will get annoyed by an attempt to bait me or you genuinely lack the capacity to understand edgy/dark comments and humour.

Maybe that’s the intention but going by past arguments you do seem to lack the sophistication and intellectual depth to do that.


Let me make it easy for you. Putting aside your dimestore Freudian analysis, if you’re genuinely disturbed by things I say then I submit you probably should stay off Reddit (and I’m not just being condescending….some of the stuff written on there even makes me shudder)

[Mac76]

People on the spectrum often lack social cues and can’t make the delineation between hyperbole, metaphor and literal meaning

At the moment because I can’t divine text from its intended tone. I can’t tell whether you are simply too unable to give up on this line of enquiry because of stubbornness and a transparent hope that I will get annoyed by an attempt to bait me or you genuinely lack the capacity to understand edgy/dark comments and humour.

Maybe that’s the intention but going by past arguments you do seem to lack the sophistication and intellectual depth to do that.

i understand edgy/dark comments when there's a point to them but when they're just a chosen form of words when many others would do just as well, it seems to indicate an unhealthy interest in the subject by the person using them

if your metaphors always involved motor racing, we'd assume you were really into motor racing, but they involve sexual deviance so why shouldn't we assume you're really into that?

[HCZ_Reborn]

OK, let's try and pin this down with a straight question - did you choose, as i recall you did, to insult Nicola Sturgeon by way of making derogatory comments about her anatomy? yes or no?

Who gives a fuck if he did

Yes it’s a bit lowbrow to play the man (or ugly woman) rather than the ball. Yes you could argue that people are far less likely to comment on a man’s look than a woman’s but that’s life…it’s not fair, people can be cruel at times. If you can’t deal with it maybe you need to retire to one of those sensory rooms where you’re not overstimulated by anything.

[Mac76]

Who gives a fuck if he did

Yes it’s a bit lowbrow to play the man (or ugly woman) rather than the ball. Yes you could argue that people are far less likely to comment on a man’s look than a woman’s but that’s life…it’s not fair, people can be cruel at times. If you can’t deal with it maybe you need to retire to one of those sensory rooms where you’re not overstimulated by anything.

This is what you and he fail to understand, partly or mainly because you're both desperate to dismiss my remarks - i can 'deal with it' perfectly well, it doesn't affect me emotinally, but it's still not the right thing to do and if i feel like pointing it out then i will ;)

[Niall_Quinn]

OK, let's try and pin this down with a straight question - did you choose, as i recall you did, to insult Nicola Sturgeon by way of making derogatory comments about her anatomy? yes or no?

That stinky cunt Nichola Sturgeon? Yeah, sounds exactly like something I would say. And what a fishy twat she turned out to be.

Still don't see how this makes Herbert a rapist. Maybe my mind can't operate at your level?

[HCZ_Reborn]

i understand edgy/dark comments when there's a point to them but when they're just a chosen form of words when many others would do just as well, it seems to indicate an unhealthy interest in the subject by the person using them

if your metaphors always involved motor racing, we'd assume you were really into motor racing, but they involve sexual deviance so why shouldn't we assume you're really into that?

For the last time I get that you don’t understand. And a lot of your responses give me a strong indication of why you don’t understand

[Mac76]

That stinky cunt Nichola Sturgeon? Yeah, sounds exactly like something I would say. And what a fishy twat she turned out to be.



finally...

[Niall_Quinn]

This is what you and he fail to understand, partly or mainly because you're both desperate to dismiss my remarks - i can 'deal with it' perfectly well, it doesn't affect me emotinally, but it's still not the right thing to do and if i feel like pointing it out then i will ;)

With or without the cape?

[HCZ_Reborn]

This is what you and he fail to understand, partly or mainly because you're both desperate to dismiss my remarks - i can 'deal with it' perfectly well, it doesn't affect me emotinally, but it's still not the right thing to do and if i feel like pointing it out then i will ;)

Right or Wrong are in this context moral designations, morality is largely informed by emotional reaction. I would therefore submit that you can’t deal with it.

I can only speak for myself here but ultimately with any expression on here I will fall back onto the harm principle. And so if you assert that it is wrong, you’d have to provide evidence as to why.

[Mac76]

For the last time I get that you don’t understand. And a lot of your responses give me a strong indication of why you don’t understand

If you're going to repeatedly avoid the point, why bother responding at all?

[Mac76]

Right or Wrong are moral designations, morality is largely informed by emotional reaction. I would therefore submit that you can’t deal with it.

I can only speak for myself here but ultimately with any expression on here I will fall back onto the harm principle. And so if you assert that it is wrong, you’d have to provide evidence as to why.

well for example the harm with NQ's comment on Sturgeon is that any woman reading that might well feel insulted by association

[Niall_Quinn]

If you're going to repeatedly avoid the point, why bother responding at all?

And there was me thinking the point was Arsenal vs Liverpool, before you initiated this continent spanning diversion.

[HCZ_Reborn]

well for example the harm with NQ's comment on Sturgeon is that any woman reading that might well feel insulted by association

A) As has been explained to you before, offence is subjective. I find many of your arguments insulting to my intelligence but that’s a me problem. You don’t I’m sure intend to be banal. And NQ has only intended to be insulting to one woman.

B) As you well know, there are about as many women to be found on this forum as are to be found in a Benedictine monastery.

[Mac76]

Right or Wrong are in this context moral designations, morality is largely informed by emotional reaction. I would therefore submit that you can’t deal with it.

I can only speak for myself here but ultimately with any expression on here I will fall back onto the harm principle. And so if you assert that it is wrong, you’d have to provide evidence as to why.

and as for your own comments i'm not saying you are 'harming' anybody by making them per se, again you're deliberately misunderstanding me - I simply mean it's disturbing to think about what kind of person has such things at the top of their mind seemingly all the time

[Niall_Quinn]

well for example the harm with NQ's comment on Sturgeon is that any woman reading that might well feel insulted by association

You asked them, did you? So far not even Nicola has complained or falsely accused me of rape.

[Mac76]

A) As has been explained to you before, offence is subjective. I find many of your arguments insulting to my intelligence but that’s a me problem. You don’t I’m sure intend to be banal. And NQ has only intended to be insulting to one woman.

B) As you well know, there are about as many women to be found on this forum as are to be found in a Benedictine monastery.

A) if you actually knew any women you'd know that many are harmed (there you go) by generically insulting references to the female anatomy, it's a tool misogynists use to 'keep women in their place' - it's a form of linguistic violence

B) I wonder why...?

[Niall_Quinn]

and as for your own comments i'm not saying you are 'harming' anybody by making them per se, again you're deliberately misunderstanding me - I simply mean it's disturbing to think about what kind of person has such things at the top of their mind seemingly all the time

Doesn't disturb me. In fact I'll be using it as wank material.

[Mac76]

You asked them, did you? So far not even Nicola has complained or falsely accused me of rape.

I think you've run out of road here...

[Niall_Quinn]

I think you've run out of road here...

Or you've reached the end of the playbook - one or the other.

[HCZ_Reborn]

and as for your own comments i'm not saying you are 'harming' anybody by making them per se, again you're deliberately misunderstanding me - I simply mean it's disturbing to think about what kind of person has such things at the top of their mind seemingly all the time

This again suggests that you have very little idea about how the brain works in terms of semantic and linguistic processing

You are for example constantly talking about Zinchenko even when literally no one has brought up the dozy cunt, am I to infer from your facile reasoning that he’s forever on your mind. Do thoughts and images of him etch into your conscious brain.

[Niall_Quinn]

This again suggests that you have very little idea about how the brain works in terms of semantic and linguistic processing

You are for example constantly talking about Zinchenko even when literally no one has brought up the dozy cunt, am I to infer from your facile reasoning that he’s forever on your mind. Do thoughts and images of him etch into your conscious brain.

Keep going, don't stop...

[HCZ_Reborn]

A) if you actually knew any women you'd know that many are harmed (there you go) by generically insulting references to the female anatomy, it's a tool misogynists use to 'keep women in their place' - it's a form of linguistic violence

B) I wonder why...?


A) If you can’t tell the difference between offended and harmed, I can’t help you. In my experience, it’s those who take it upon themselves to be white knights who are the most untrustworthy. For all your sanctimony, I imagine the words “you can trust me I’m not like all those other guys” has escaped your lips when you’ve made a clumsy and totally unwarranted advance.

B) Because a message board is a primitive out of date format, and because women on the whole are less interested in football than men.

[Mac76]

This again suggests that you have very little idea about how the brain works in terms of semantic and linguistic processing

You are for example constantly talking about Zinchenko even when literally no one has brought up the dozy cunt, am I to infer from your facile reasoning that he’s forever on your mind. Do thoughts and images of him etch into your conscious brain.

I generally only talk about him when he has played in a game for Arsenal - or most recently when i listed a few players which i think the club should sell - that seems a reasonably good context to me - this is after all a messageboard about Arsenal

What's your excuse?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I generally only talk about him when he has played in a game for Arsenal - or most recently when i listed a few players which i think the club should sell - that seems a reasonably good context to me - this is after all a messageboard about Arsenal

What's your excuse?

You bring up Zinchenko almost all the time at the drop of a hat, by the parameters of your argument that counts as unhealthy obsession.

And the one thing we would agree on is that Rape and child abuse are bad things, viscerally bad…and to make it as simplistic as I can for you, they are then used as metaphors (albeit hyperbolically) for things that are also extremely bad. Nelson’s first touch for instance.

As I’ve stated, this puritanical twinge of yours makes me incredibly suspicious of deflection on your part.

[Niall_Quinn]

Mac, you dirty boy! Newfound respect for you, must admit.

[Mac76]

Mac, you dirty boy! Newfound respect for you, must admit.

:lol:

[Mac76]

You bring up Zinchenko almost all the time at the drop of a hat, by the parameters of your argument that counts as unhealthy obsession.

And the one thing we would agree on is that Rape and child abuse are bad things, viscerally bad…and to make it as simplistic as I can for you, they are then used as metaphors (albeit hyperbolically) for things that are also extremely bad. Nelson’s first touch for instance.

As I’ve stated, this puritanical twinge of yours makes me incredibly suspicious of deflection on your part.

nice try but why don't we turn the spotlight back on the person actually making these commets in the first place and why the choice is made to use those metaphors when you could choose any other

the regularity of your remarks which contain such subjects just seems a little suspect - anyway you're not prepared to face up to it, so let's leave it there shall we ;)

[HCZ_Reborn]

But to be honest with you, no I agree with you I don’t think you are bothered by these things. I think there’s a small part of you that objects to such comments because you need to be thought of as a good or moral person. My view is that for a group like this, that’s a feebly misguided approach. I say things here I would not say elsewhere because apart from you most people here don’t get out the fainting couch.

But my sense of humour is mat black and I make far worse comments than this on every conceivable societal taboo in private messages with friends. It’s not instructive of any desire to do such things.

However, what if I were to tell you that I suffer from what’s known as Pure O (a form of OCD that’s about intrusive thoughts that cause immense distress) and through no choice of my own I am plagued by dark and disturbing thoughts that rather than making me want to act on such thoughts, would rather make me take my own life than act on them.

Haven’t you by your superficial moral preening caused me immense harm by intimating that I might be a sexual deviant, a predatory rapist?. That I might now internalise your accusations and spend ages agonising over whether I am this terrible thing (even if in thought if not deed).

Now of course you haven’t caused me any harm because I’d have to be in a very bad place indeed mentally for anything you say to cause me even the slightest concern or worry, and even if you had I maintain that it’s my brain that’s made that leap rather than your words.

But again just to be clear, I’m using your logic here

[HCZ_Reborn]

nice try but why don't we turn the spotlight back on the person actually making these commets in the first place and why the choice is made to use those metaphors when you could choose any other

the regularity of your remarks which contain such subjects just seems a little suspect - anyway you're not prepared to face up to it, so let's leave it there shall we ;)

You realise of course that all you’ve achieved is to open up a pathway where at the back of your mind you’re going to have that seconds self doubt every time you think about bringing up Zinchenko in conversation. And of course if you don’t a little bit of less than subtle operant conditioning on my part won’t go amiss :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

You realise of course that all you’ve achieved is to open up a pathway where at the back of your mind you’re going to have that seconds self doubt every time you think about bringing up Zinchenko in conversation. And of course if you don’t a little bit of less than subtle operant conditioning on my part won’t go amiss :lol:

Certainly wouldn't put it past me to mention it every 5 minutes.

[Mac76]

You realise of course that all you’ve achieved is to open up a pathway where at the back of your mind you’re going to have that seconds self doubt every time you think about bringing up Zinchenko in conversation.

I absolutely won't, i can assure you

[Mac76]

But to be honest with you, no I agree with you I don’t think you are bothered by these things. I think there’s a small part of you that objects to such comments because you need to be thought of as a good or moral person. My view is that for a group like this, that’s a feebly misguided approach. I say things here I would not say elsewhere because apart from you most people here don’t get out the fainting couch.

But my sense of humour is mat black and I make far worse comments than this on every conceivable societal taboo in private messages with friends. It’s not instructive of any desire to do such things.

However, what if I were to tell you that I suffer from what’s known as Pure O (a form of OCD that’s about intrusive thoughts that cause immense distress) and through no choice of my own I am plagued by dark and disturbing thoughts that rather than making me want to act on such thoughts, would rather make me take my own life than act on them.

Haven’t you by your superficial moral preening caused me immense harm by intimating that I might be a sexual deviant, a predatory rapist?. That I might now internalise your accusations and spend ages agonising over whether I am this terrible thing (even if in thought if not deed).

Now of course you haven’t caused me any harm because I’d have to be in a very bad place indeed mentally for anything you say to cause me even the slightest concern or worry, and even if you had I maintain that it’s my brain that’s made that leap rather than your words.

But again just to be clear, I’m using your logic here

I recognise the 'Pure O' type of person you mean and tbh i think a lot of teenagers suffer from that, i think i did a bit when young

but i don't think such a person would therefore invite such commetns by using metaphors like that - surely they'd play safe and avoid such an invitation to bring that kind of comment on themselves?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I recognise the 'Pure O' type of person you mean and tbh i think a lot of teenagers suffer from that, i think i did a bit when young

but i don't think such a person would therefore invite such commetns by using metaphors like that - surely they'd play safe and avoid such an invitation to bring that kind of comment on themselves?


:haha: you’re literally trying to tell me you understand this better than I do. I have to admit I got you wrong, I knew you were conceited but I didn’t realise quite how much.

First off apart from being slightly irksome, your assertions are not likely to make me believe I am capable of hurting someone, and even if they were…acting as though thoughts have power over you is essentially making yourself a slave to a condition like Pure O.

In relation to most recent comment Google it, and you’ll find it’s a common expression. And as I’ve tried patiently to explain to you, there’s a difference between words and deeds, just as much as there’s a difference between thoughts and deeds. All I can say to you now is that if you’re still convinced that there’s a connection between saying things and behaviour, that’s a you problem.


Morality is judged by actions not words, I’ve had female friends come to me to disclose sexual abuse…one of them I spent a lot of time trying to persuade her to go to the police where it turned out her abuser had form for this kind of thing.

Would I use such an expression around these people? No. But you tailor your language to an appropriate audience

I wouldn’t share the type of jokes I read in Viz with my dad for instance

[HCZ_Reborn]

I absolutely won't, i can assure you

Oh you will. Consciously you think you won’t, but you don’t really fully have control over your thoughts.

If I told you not to think of white elephants it’ll be the first thing you think of

[Mac76]

:haha: you’re literally trying to tell me you understand this better than I do. I have to admit I got you wrong, I knew you were conceited but I didn’t realise quite how much.

First off apart from being slightly irksome, your assertions are not likely to make me believe I am capable of hurting someone, and even if they were…acting as though thoughts have power over you is essentially making yourself a slave to a condition like Pure O.

In relation to most recent comment Google it, and you’ll find it’s a common expression. And as I’ve tried patiently to explain to you, there’s a difference between words and deeds, just as much as there’s a difference between thoughts and deeds. All I can say to you now is that if you’re still convinced that there’s a connection between saying things and behaviour, that’s a you problem.


Morality is judged by actions not words, I’ve had female friends come to me to disclose sexual abuse…one of them I spent a lot of time trying to persuade her to go to the police where it turned out her abuser had form for this kind of thing.

Would I use such an expression around these people? No. But you tailor your language to an appropriate audience

I wouldn’t share the type of jokes I read in Viz with my dad for instance

again i've never said you do these things, just that you have an unhealthy obsession

[HCZ_Reborn]

again i've never said you do these things, just that you have an unhealthy obsession

Well actually you did or implied I was on the cusp of doing so, your exact words were “before it gets out of hand, if it hasn’t already done so”

Just like it’s your contention that it’s an unhealthy obsession rather than simply using crass language and comparisons in a throwaway manner which doesn’t require the depth of thought you insist on attributing to it