General Football Nonsense

[Mac76]

We agree that many of the current crop of English coaches are poor, the difference is you think it’s because they are English that they are poor.


That's not what I have been saying, I have been saying that perhaps there are certain cultural characteristics prevalent in (cue sigh as I once again have to put the following word in bold italics in the hope the point will finally sink through) football which prevent good english coaches coming through - your pathetic endless attempts to mean that makes me some kind of anti-Emglish person is as tiresome as it is nonsensical - you often accuse me and others of 'reaching' but that's a bigger reach than any assertion I've made

It proves you're just looking for facile ways of undermining my comments rather than addressing the point, which is that you are STILL not explaining WHY English coaches are not coming through.

In fact when you stop your ridiculous ranting about patriotism you almost start to give a reason here but fall short:



Now you’ve noted that I said more English players should be prepared to play abroad and I still say this, and I say the same about English coaches…in order to get the experience they are not getting here. But I think also more needs to be done to encourage them from a young age. For a lot of working class kids in this country to become a footballer is an aspiration, why not becoming a coach as well?.

so how about answering your own question? why isn't it an aspiration?

what are you afraid of? is it that your theory is that it's because of the lizard people and you think we'll laugh at you?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t have to attempt anything, that you are an Anti-English snob who has a false sense of superiority is just a fact. I’m sorry that it frustrates you me pointing that out. The assumption that England is culturally inferior even within the confines of football is a reflexively Anti English attitude.

To put it bluntly if you don’t want to be shot at, you should maybe stop giving me ammunition


The decline in English coaches at the top level is a far more recent phenomenon, so unless you’re attributing it to some cultural revolution that’s taken place on the continent that has left England behind (there hasn’t been) in fact what’s happened is that because of money we’ve just taken far more of their coaches and players because it’s easier to bring in a finished product from someone else than something you’ve shown the patience to develop yourself.

Also when you say why not you aren’t always saying “why isn’t this the case” you’re saying “why shouldn’t this be the case?” You get that right?. I don’t know why kids don’t have aspirations to become coaches, if I had to guess it’s because footballers have a bigger profile than football coaches and kids love the idea of being famous.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Will you two just fuck already?

Sent from my CPH2663 using Tapatalk

[HCZ_Reborn]

Will you two just fuck already?

Sent from my CPH2663 using Tapatalk

You must have had some very interesting dating experiences is all I can say :lol:

[Mac76]

I don’t have to attempt anything, that you are an Anti-English snob who has a false sense of superiority is just a fact.

no it's clearly not a fact and as someone who likes to pretend to make reasonable evidence-based arguments (even though most of them aren't, and in fact often are contradictory) it's utterly pathetic of you to say any different

It is in fact a made-up attitude you're projecting onto me because it seems to make you happy, though I really don't know why


The decline in English coaches at the top level is a far more recent phenomenon, so unless you’re attributing it to some cultural revolution that’s taken place on the continent that has left England behind (there hasn’t been) in fact what’s happened is that because of money we’ve just taken far more of their coaches and players because it’s easier to bring in a finished product from someone else than something you’ve shown the patience to develop yourself.


That 'phenomenon' is the fact that, with a certain Arsene Wenger (former manager of Arsenal - look him up) being an early example, when coaches came in from abroad they demonstrated a far more sophisticated knowledge and attitude on everything from fitness to diet to tactics etc, whcih is why they have become more and more prevalent in the English game.

As to why English managers have simply failed to show themselves capable of taking on exactly the same widely-available knowledge and techniques and applying them successfully at a high level, if it isn't some kind of cultural resistance or backwardness, is it not then that they're not intelligent enough?

And if they're not intelligent enough is it because of some kind of anti-intellectualism in English football?

The kind of 'I like burgers and a pint with the lads' mentailiy a neanderthal like Sean Dyche is always talking about?

or something else?

Again we await your alternative theory

[Mac76]

Will you two just fuck already?

Sent from my CPH2663 using Tapatalk

:sick: (and I'm not referring to the Tapatalk bit :lol:)

[HCZ_Reborn]

no it's clearly not a fact and as someone who likes to pretend to make reasonable evidence-based arguments (even though most of them aren't, and in fact often are contradictory) it's utterly pathetic of you to say any different

It is in fact a made-up attitude you're projecting onto me because it seems to make you happy, though I really don't know why



That 'phenomenon' is the fact that, with a certain Arsene Wenger (former manager of Arsenal - look him up) being an early example, when coaches came in from abroad they demonstrated a far more sophisticated knowledge and attitude on everything from fitness to diet to tactics etc, whcih is why they have become more and more prevalent in the English game.

As to why English managers have simply failed to show themselves capable of taking on exactly the same widely-available knowledge and techniques and applying them successfully at a high level, if it isn't some kind of cultural resistance or backwardness, is it not then that they're not intelligent enough?

And if they're not intelligent enough is it because of some kind of anti-intellectualism in English football?

The kind of 'I like burgers and a pint with the lads' mentailiy a neanderthal like Sean Dyche is always talking about?

or something else?

Again we await your alternative theory

I’m going to have to insist that you either stop using we or get yourself checked for dissociative personality disorder

You reject my assertion because you don’t believe your almost pathological tendency to make Anti-English comments makes you Anti-English. If someone made racist comments all the time you wouldn’t think it unreasonable to call the person racist?

English coaches were common in the league long after Wenger came to us, and for intrinsically primitive coaches the whole premier league was very quick to adapt to the fitness and diet regimen that coaches like he brought in (so where exactly was the cultural resistance?). This was largely more about how football was changing and players becoming more like athletes. Plus you’ll get a different account of dietary regimen from Englishmen who played abroad based on where they went, the Mediterranean diet in Italy and Spain was not as prominent in places like France and Germany. And your argument is predicated on England being the primitive man of Europe in footballing terms, as compared to the rest of the continent (the fact that is your base assumption is why I call you Anti English but yeah keep complaining that I’m being unfair)

Plus given how dogmatic Wenger was tactically, he’s probably not the best example of adaptive tactics and style anyhow.

The Throat Cancer boy comment about going out for a Burger with his players was an example about building relationships, if you think stodgy carbs are part of the ordinary diet for Everton players whilst he was there, you’re even more stupid than I took you for.

Ranieri took Leicester players out for Pizza (fatty carbs) not long after he was made Leicester coach as a team bonding exercise. Similarly I doubt pizza was a common staple diet for the players nutritional intake.

I’ve given you my theory. Pretty much every time I reply to you I restate my theory. You act as though I haven’t and whinge when I point out your theory is based on you being an effete snob who doesn’t even realise that they are in fact no more sophisticated than the people they sneer at and deride.

[Letters]

Will you two just fuck already?
I can't believe HCZ is cheating on me, tbh :(

[Niall_Quinn]

Here we go: https://www.squawka.com/en/features/premier-league-var-errors-2024-25/

Now we need somebody to add in the red card bollocks.

So now we know why they introduced VAR, so they could refine their cheating. I'm sure they now have the capabilities to provide data to those Asian bookies weeks in advance.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I can't believe HCZ is cheating on me, tbh :(

Sometimes I just feel like your heart isn’t in it anymore

Like you can only be bothered to row with me when you think I’m being stubborn. Like how you think I was being ridiculous when I claimed Liverpool have been lucky. A narrative that actually is gaining a lot more traction (in terms of referee leniency at any rate) and of course it helped when you tried to assert that I’d claimed that it was only because they were lucky that they were ahead of us.

Plus ultimately it has less legs on it than sneering middle class stereotype virtue signaller resents being labelled as such

[Niall_Quinn]

And it's not just the reds we have picked up, but also the reds our opponents got away with. That nailed on red for the nasty tackle from behind on Martinelli, which is what probably injured him, is just the latest example. That Liverpool defender not being sent off for a string of offences our players have been carded for time and again, and they get the luxury of subbing him off so he gets maximum benefit from his cheating.

What makes it all finally worth complaining about with a view to getting something done about it, previously when the officials had to decide in the moment there was always the reasonable defence (except in the case of Riley and Bennett of course) the ref or the lino just didn't see it, or had a bad angle or just fucked up. But now, with cameras and other technology all over the place the only reason to get a decision wrong is cheating. And we shouldn't have cheating, not from the clubs (like City's blatant flouting of FFP), the players (with all their rolling around and screaming) and certainly not the officials who are the worst culprits of the lot it seems.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Anyway for the TLDR crowd

Mac “Claiming that all English coaches are unsophisticated troglodytes because of a primitive attitude that permeates in English football isn’t Anti English and it isn’t at all a paradigm example of how I think English culture is inherently also unsophisticated”

[HCZ_Reborn]

:sick: (and I'm not referring to the Tapatalk bit :lol:)

Homophobe! :sulk:

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

I can't believe HCZ is cheating on me, tbh :(

He'll always be your number 1.

It wouldn't hurt if you showed him some love every so often though.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'd forgotten what an irritating little shit Owen is. (https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/13311978/myles-lewis-skelly-red-card-howard-webb-believes-arsenal-defenders-sending-off-at-wolves-was-wrong-but-defends-referee-michael-oliver)

[HCZ_Reborn]

I find him too dull to be irritating. A complete absence of a person

[Mac76]

your almost pathological tendency

still waiting for all those examples ;)




I’ve given you my theory. Pretty much every time I reply to you I restate my theory.


but it isn’t it a theory - it stops at 'young English people don’t go into coaching' - you fail to try to explain why

for all that you don’t like or perhaps don’t understand my own theory - and most likely wantonly misinterpret it to try to blacken me (your own pathological obsession perhaps? ;)) – it is at least a theory


The Throat Cancer boy comment about going out for a Burger with his players was an example about building relationships, if you think stodgy carbs are part of the ordinary diet for Everton players whilst he was there, you’re even more stupid than I took you for.


He said it when at Burnley :haha:

[Letters]

Sigh.

[HCZ_Reborn]

still waiting for all those examples ;)




but it isn’t it a theory - it stops at 'young English people don’t go into coaching' - you fail to try to explain why

for all that you don’t like or perhaps don’t understand my own theory - and most likely wantonly misinterpret it to try to blacken me (your own pathological obsession perhaps? ;)) – it is at least a theory



He said it when at Burnley :haha:


Yes, there are fewer English coaches at top level because there are fewer English players going into coaching after their playing career has finished. Maybe because if I borrow what IBK stated about minorities, there is the innate belief that they don’t really belong there. You don’t have to agree with the theory, but it’s a theory all the same.

Maybe because they see getting into punditry as easier given the expansion of media forms from the traditional to podcast forums etc, maybe they don’t really need the money. Maybe they don’t want the scrutiny.


I seem to recall Luis Felipe Scolari turning down the England role because he thought the English media were too intrusive. The difference is I’m not hitting at a definite conclusion unlike yourself who somehow believes that there was a tactical revolution 20-30 years ago that somehow English coaches didn’t get the memo for and when they did they refused to get on board.

Ultimately the coaches you consider troglodytes end up at mid-lower table teams (as is befitting I guess) but what I often notice is that the same kind of football is practiced no matter what the nationality of the coach is. In England we might call it pub football, on the continent it might be considered a variant of catennacio (maybe you’re one of these people who believes that anything with a foreign sounding name is more sophisticated, but it just means door lock)

I’m only trying to blacken you if you consider my opinion of what kind of person you are as a negative. I think there are a subset of people to which you belong who consider themselves superior and sneer at what you see as lowbrow culture that represents at least a plurality of white working class people in this country. The kind of people you think are guilty of both false consciousness if they vote for right wing parties, and equally have some notion of their own innate superiority and I believe this view bleeds into your attitude concerning English coaches.


I observe from experience that people who think like this are usually no smarter than the people that they look down upon, and that they often substitute political views for moral worth. In your case, the need to tell people you don’t read the sun or pay money to Murdoch as if anyone actually gives a fuck.

I remember going on a date with a woman who delighted in telling me how she’d harangued a guy she went on a date with because he voted leave and saying “he couldn’t answer why he’d voted that way”. Now I could have turned that around on her and quite easily deduced that the reason she voted Remain was vibes (I think Vibes is the main reason people vote the way they do, a feeling or association people make). But I didn’t, she wanted to meet again but I ghosted her because I can’t be doing with undue sanctimony.

As for Sean Dyche, does it really matter whether he said that at Everton or Burnley…the same standard still applies. Burnley didn’t manage to stay up for several seasons on a diet of burger and chips. Even shithousing requires more than the quick energy release you’d get from carbs and fat. In many cases his tactics are the cynical consideration that with the players at his disposal that trying to play a more open and expansive game would ultimately be futile. And if you look at Vincent Kompany and how he did with Burnley, I’d argue that this was probably a reasonable consideration.

But you seem to want to make him a paradigm for base English thuggery.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sigh.

Yes I know, I know

In reality I’m working on my day off because I came back yesterday to a tsunami (because apparently covering for colleagues during sickness or leave is a one way street) so I don’t particularly have time for this (even though I clearly started this particular row…I need to go back to just posting images of Salacious Crumb) yet somehow I’ll still find myself wasting time doing this….ah well that’s cognitive dissonance for you


Don’t pretend you’re any better though :lol:

[IBK]

And it's not just the reds we have picked up, but also the reds our opponents got away with. That nailed on red for the nasty tackle from behind on Martinelli, which is what probably injured him, is just the latest example. That Liverpool defender not being sent off for a string of offences our players have been carded for time and again, and they get the luxury of subbing him off so he gets maximum benefit from his cheating.

What makes it all finally worth complaining about with a view to getting something done about it, previously when the officials had to decide in the moment there was always the reasonable defence (except in the case of Riley and Bennett of course) the ref or the lino just didn't see it, or had a bad angle or just fucked up. But now, with cameras and other technology all over the place the only reason to get a decision wrong is cheating. And we shouldn't have cheating, not from the clubs (like City's blatant flouting of FFP), the players (with all their rolling around and screaming) and certainly not the officials who are the worst culprits of the lot it seems.

I try to be as objective as I can when it comes to seeing things too much in red and white, and am perhaps naturally inclined not to moan too much about decisions that we can't do anything about. But even so, there does seem to be an anti Arsenal agenda when it comes to PGML and many of the top 'pundits'. Maybe its not even the decisions against us in themselves, but certainly the lack of equivalence when it comes to other teams, including the fact that the basis of decisions against us - eg preventing free kicks; taking too long at throw ins etc seems to disappear once we have fallen foul of them. The latest FA decision - the fine for the players' reaction to MLS's red is an example of this. I did not see our players going over the top (by reference to what is commonplace in the EPL), and at the time I don't think anyone saw anything very different to behaviour from other players towards the ref during the season. Add in the fact that the decision itself was patently wrong, and that that PGML refused to admit this (instead hiding behind - admittedly worng - online abuse of Oliver that my gut says is commonplace, but something used as a PR tactic in our case to deflect from the lamentable refereeing), and it does seem that it is always Arsenal singled out.

I am also pretty disgusted by the reaction to (and even the statement from the Premier League's chief football officer about) the MLS celebration. I mean WTF. It seems like its fine to single out an 18 year old Arsenal player celebrating his first senior goal...:blink:

If our judicial system reflected the lack of consistency shown to our club by PGML and the FA then it would be rightly considered unfit for purpose and even corrupt.

[Letters]

Don’t pretend you’re any better though :lol:
What are you saying?
That I also engage in pointless bickering which goes round and round in circles until it bores both participants and everyone watching?
How dare you!


:run:

[Mac76]

What are you saying?
That I also engage in pointless bickering which goes round and round in circles until it bores both participants and everyone watching?
How dare you!


:run:

:) although I would venture to suggest that in this particular case, one person (clue: not me) is pointlessly bickering, the other is simply trying to make sense of what they are saying (which admittedly is pointless because they're arguing for the sake of arguing...)

[HCZ_Reborn]

What are you saying?
That I also engage in pointless bickering which goes round and round in circles until it bores both participants and everyone watching?
How dare you!


:run:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-23-2024/R2x9F4.gif

[Niall_Quinn]

ITKs (or so they claim) like Ornstein predicting major news about city coming in the next month. Some bloke on Radio 5 was saying a points deduction is most likely if they are found guilty of some or all of the charges - somewhere in the region of 60-100 points which will drop them down to the lower reaches of the EFP Championship. Also claims the city board will have to resign given they have lied to authorities. Some also saying they will be stripped of titles, if that happened I'm guessing we'll be champs after the fact.

If it happens it will trigger relegation clauses in some of the senior players contracts and they'll be able to walk away. Others will be loaned out with city retaining a basic squad good enough to get them back into the PL.

All sounds a bit far fetched to me. When was the last time anyone super rich was held to account? Juventus I suppose, and Milan. But arabs who probably own half of the UK? Not so certain justice would be blind in this case. They'd also appeal, no doubt, so it could be months or years more before any resolution is reached.

[Letters]

Sounds like wishful thinking, but here's hoping.

[Letters]

Everywhere they go


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2tFFib2IOw

[Letters]

What do you mean "some"?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c7571gng06wo

[Marc Overmars]

As a non-United fan I thought it was quite an engaging interview. Surprised at how honest and candid he was but then again they’ve been so shit it’s probably impossible to even try and put a positive spin on it.

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cvgprplz94yo

Utd plan 100,000 seater stadium.
Best stadium in mid-table :unsure:

[Marc Overmars]

That’s an expensive looking mosque…

[Letters]

That’s an expensive looking mosque…

:haha:

[dazthegooner]

Train company will be pleased 20000 more passengers to and from London.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Train company will be pleased 20000 more passengers to and from London.

Or they could build a high speed line that bypasses london and travels direct to Manchester from Surrey

[Mac76]

Kind of good news maybe, as if they follow the Arsenal model and I think the spuds one of investing in the stadium instead of the team, we can look forward of them hanging around 15th for a decent time to come :good:

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

It seems Maccy has locked the Champions League thread for himself.

And nobody said Just Eat.

Sent from my CPH2663 using Tapatalk

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yep. Liverpool wasteful imo, Diaz especially guilty…PSG look leggy

[Mac76]

It seems Maccy has locked the Champions League thread for himself.


He's channeling his inner Trump I suspect

[HCZ_Reborn]

Liverpool out :lol:

Strange tie. PSG lost first leg despite being better team, Liverpool lose tonight despite being better team

I thought they were wasteful though, Diaz overplayed, Salah sat too deep at times.


Nunez pel just about sums him up

[HCZ_Reborn]

Also I think it’s a mistake to have your top goalscorer and penalty taker as your first pel taker in a shootout . You want him as your insurance policy further down the line.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Also I think it’s a mistake to have your top goalscorer and penalty taker as your first pel taker in a shootout . You want him as your insurance policy further down the line.

That's a dicey one, I mean what if you never get the chance to get down the line? i.e. miss the first 2 or so penalties or your best man never gets a chance because of what others did before him?

Personally I think a team's best bet is to have your best 2 penalty takers be no1 and no5 and if you've got a lot of weak penalty takers in the team, like our lot, then you bring it forward and your best 2 should be no 1 and no 3, or something like that to inspire some confidence in the lesser lot.

Didn't watch the game but I'd never bet on Liverpool losing a penalty shootout, it really surprised me especially since they were at home.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Way I see it, if one of your players misses you’d rather it be earlier in the shoot out to give you time to come back. Though of course you don’t put the proverbial Gareth Southgate in at no1.
But if you look at PSG last night, Dembele was the third pel taker. Before him was Vitinha and Ramos their sub striker who was brought on for pels.
Statistically you’re always massively favoured if you take your pels first, so the main advantage you can give yourself is to win the coin toss :lol:

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Ah well.

I fell asleep early in extra time :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ah well.

I fell asleep early in extra time :lol:

In all honesty, it felt like it was just going to be that kind of night for Liverpool. The overall play was decent (although as I said above Salah sat too deep, wanting to be a chance maker more than a goalscorer). I thought PSG defended really well with a lot of last ditch tackles but I think Liverpool’s decision making in and around the box was wanting even though they always looked dangerous coming forward.

I think over the two legs the contest was reasonably even

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Atleti disrupting again, leading against Barca this time. :lol:

And not really looking in danger.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-0 now. Fantastic goal.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-1 Lewandowski

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-2 Torres now. :rose:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-3 Yamal. Wow

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-4 Torres now. What a collapse.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Been a bit of a day for high scoring, high drama games

Leverkusen came from 3-1 down to win 4-3 at Stuttgart

Rangers had blown a 2 goal lead away at Celtic only to get a late winner 3-2

Dundee won 4-2 at Dundee United (when it’s said that the two grounds are a stones throw from each other you can take that quite literally, as you could probably spit from outside Tannardyce and hit Dens Park)

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

To get us all through another international break.

What is everyone's favourite game? Or goal? Or whatever?

Obviously discounting the obvious. So for yours Anfield 89 is obvious. Maybe wtlawhl. For myself, Istanbul 2005 or Barca/Final 2019.

A game I always go back to more for sheer enjoyment is the game against yourselves in 2008. 4-2. The Babel penalty. A really good game, up and down. Diaby was a man possessed for the first half. Hyypia's header, Torres' goal. Babel's penalty :ninja: Just a proper back and forth game. One of the few games I was sat there with my Dad just utterly engrossed.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I was 5 on May 26th 1989 so whilst it’s an important game in our history, I certainly don’t remember it at the time (yet oddly I do have some memory of the Euro 88 tournament…miserable as that was from an England perspective).


I can never pick a favourite game anymore than I can pick a favourite song or favourite film.


Winning at Anfield in 2001 (our first time in nine years…though we’ve managed almost 13 now) despite playing most of the game with ten men was memorable although it was a backs to the wall nail biter especially when Litmanen pulled a goal back. One of my favourite games I’ve been to was at Anfield, FA cup third round 2007 - Rosicky scored two from outside the box, Dirk Kuyt got one back and then Henry mugged Carragher right in front of the Anfield Road end…..and ran over and celebrated pretty much right in front of where I was (well six rows or so.)


The title win at Old Trafford was a bigger deal for me than winning the title at White Hart Lane, and I say that mainly because we won the title but not the match…thanks Jens Lehmann


European matches ? The first big win at PSV (breaking this record of 7 losses from 8 on the road in Europe), Inter 5-1, Becoming the first English team to win in the San Siro against AC Milan, Real Madrid and the 2-1 win over Barca.


Favourite goal ? Again can’t pick just one


Bergkamp against Bayer Leverkusen and then three days later the Dabizas spin against Newcastle

Sorry to pick on Liverpool again but the Pires curler at Anfield in 2003

Ray Parlour’s fa cup goal against Chelsea

Favourite goal where I was at the game was probably Alexis Sanchez against Borussia Dortmund

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://youtube.com/shorts/B8oHkEWhP5A?si=-At2-hDGyrTb6aNb

And this is probably one of my favourite non Arsenal goals in the premier league

[IBK]

Winning the league 0-1 and securing the double at Old Trafford in May 2002 - hands down. Watched the game with my sister at Shoeless Joes on Embankment and we headed up to Highbury immediately after. It was madness - Upper Street and Lower Holloway gridlocked. 1000's of fand outside Highbury - one of the best nights of my life!

[IBK]

For goals - obviously Bergkamp's marvel against Newcastle...

But a close second Kanu's third in his hattrick against the Chavs in 1999


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eJlBsw_QcM

Unbelievable!

[Letters]

To get us all through another international break.
What is everyone's favourite game? Or goal? Or whatever?
I guess Anfield '89 is the most significant for me in that it kinda changed my interests and therefore life. I was an Arsenal fan before that but at arms length (like now, I guess).
But that was the moment when I thought "holy shit, football is incredible!". I remember daydreaming about that goal for years afterwards - it still gives me chills.
And looking back, it wasn't a great game. But that moment... Only sport can produce things like that.
Inspired by that, the season after I started going to games and in 90-91 dad and me had season tickets and we saw all the Wenger glory years. It was a big part of our father/son relationship so I guess that was quite an important moment personally.

There was a ridiculous 4-3 vs Norwich in my first couple of seasons. We were 2-0 down and 3-2 down. Two Dixon penalties amongst our goals. In Fever Pitch Hornby cites it as the perfect game - his criteria being a comeback win, some handbags, a sending off and I can't remember the others. But it had all of them.

Then there's the FA Cup Semi-Final in 1993 and the Final replay.
Both awful games - the semi-final was both literally and metaphorically 1-0 to the Arsenal. But donkey won the derby and it excised the demons of 1991 (shudder).
The final...first FA Cup Final I'd been to and remember the FA Cup was a much bigger deal then. And bear in mind it was the first one since 1979, when I was alive but too young to care or remember.
So to be there when we won the Cup and with a late goal while penalties loomed. Brilliant!

1998 the 1-0 against Man Utd at OT. I think that was the moment I started to believe. And yes, the Wiltoooord in 2002. Winning it in their back yard. Lovely!

IBK mentioned the 3-2 win at Chelsea. Went to Highbury to watch it on the big screens and at 2-0 wondered why I bothered. Everyone went mental when Kanu scored that 3rd goal!

There was the ridiculous 5-4 against Spurs. Stressful and crazy.

Non-Arsenal, the England 5-1 in Munich. A real "pinch me" moment. And before that the Holland game in Euro 1996.


Goals. Obviously the Bergkamp thing.
A few from Henry - when he ran the length of the field to score against Spurs and then back to the Clock End to slide in front of them :haha:
The goal vs Liverpool - we'd just gone out of both cups and 2-1 down vs Liverpool it felt like it was all slipping away. And then...
And his back heel against...Charlton, I think? Looked impossible to score from there.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The goal vs Liverpool - we'd just gone out of both cups and 2-1 down vs Liverpool it felt like it was all slipping away. And then..

Hate to be that guy (I totally don’t :lol:)

But the goal you’re referring to, it was 2-2 at the time. We were 2-1 down at half time but Pires had already levelled things again.

Of course it was only like a minute after Pires had scored though

[HCZ_Reborn]

You could pick your favourite Henry goals just from that season alone

Henry goal against United at Highbury
Henry’s second goal against Inter in the 5-1 game
Henry’s curler against Man City


I was at the game at Villa park with the quickly taken free kick

Also the game at Ewood Park with the goal that never was where he managed to get the ball off Friedel after he’d released it (be fascinating if we had VAR back then, whether that would have been given…I mean there’s literally no reason for it not to be given)

[Letters]

Hate to be that guy (I totally don’t :lol:)

But the goal you’re referring to, it was 2-2 at the time. We were 2-1 down at half time but Pires had already levelled things again.

Of course it was only like a minute after Pires had scored though

Fair enough :lol:
But yeah, I remember it was 2-1 at half time and it felt like it was all going to slip away. Very important win to get us back on trap and that goal was obviously the pick of the bunch.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fair enough :lol:
But yeah, I remember it was 2-1 at half time and it felt like it was all going to slip away. Very important win to get us back on trap and that goal was obviously the pick of the bunch.

Friday lunchtime game on Good Friday (three days after the Champions League exit)

I don’t think the league was in doubt by that point (pretty much as secure as Liverpool are now) but I think the unbeaten record was something commentators had started to take as a serious possibility and of course for the media the fact that we’d lost two games back to back (in a season where we lost only six in all competitions) it was a sign of our impending collapse.

Apart from the fact Liverpool have lost albeit only once in the league, actually the parallels between us in 2004 and them now in terms of hype and being brought back to earth are noticeable

[HCZ_Reborn]

I still remember United fans claiming that they would have won the league if not for Rio Ferdinand “forgetting” to provide a sample of piss.

4 of the six games they lost in the league after his suspension were games that they lost 1-0 (Portsmouth, Blackburn, Liverpool, Wolves) so I’m struggling to see how their best centre back being unavailable caused that

[Letters]

I don’t think the league was in doubt by that point (pretty much as secure as Liverpool are now)
Nothing like Liverpool now. I had a check and we were 4 points ahead of Chelsea. We did have a game in hand, the Liverpool game was the game in hand - or we certainly played before them. Had we lost. 4 points with 7 games to go. Certainly fuckupable. After the week we'd had we needed a result to calm nerves and get us back on track.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Nothing like Liverpool now. I had a check and we were 4 points ahead of Chelsea. We did have a game in hand, the Liverpool game was the game in hand - or we certainly played before them. Had we lost. 4 points with 7 games to go. Certainly fuckupable. After the week we'd had we needed a result to calm nerves and get us back on track.

Huh:doh:

For some reason I thought we were much further ahead than we were (we finished 11 points ahead of Chelsea by end of season) then again they lost on Easter Monday I think it was against Villa three days after this game

And then they ballsed up the semi finals of the champions league against Monaco :lol:

[Letters]

Utterly insane than Henry never won the Ballon D'or in that period. I guess because of our failings in Europe, but still. I maintain he was the best player on the planet at the time.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

I guess Anfield '89 is the most significant for me in that it kinda changed my interests and therefore life. I was an Arsenal fan before that but at arms length (like now, I guess).
But that was the moment when I thought "holy shit, football is incredible!". I remember daydreaming about that goal for years afterwards - it still gives me chills.
And looking back, it wasn't a great game. But that moment... Only sport can produce things like that.
Inspired by that, the season after I started going to games and in 90-91 dad and me had season tickets and we saw all the Wenger glory years. It was a big part of our father/son relationship so I guess that was quite an important moment personally.

I think I quite clearly said Anfield 89 doesn't count :ninja:

Funnily enough though, and no doubt a reason I am on here now, I grew up idolising the Arsenal team of the late 90s/early 2000s. So obviously separate to Liverpool, it was Henry's flick goal against United, Bergkamp vs.. everyone, Henry's goal against us when he drifted past Carragher after beating half our team, but then equally when we rarely got one over on you so say the 2001 FA Cup which was an utter robbery, or Mellor's winner in 2004. As much as that I think partly you were the only rivals to beating United. And that made you ok in my book.

[Letters]

I think I quite clearly said Anfield 89 doesn't count :ninja:
You did.
But it was a significant moment in my life - not because of the game itself, but that moment and the effect it had on me. One of those effects being that I was that the final in 2001 <_<
It was robbery, but if you don't put the ball in the net enough times... :shrug:

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

You did.
But it was a significant moment in my life - not because of the game itself, but that moment and the effect it had on me. One of those effects being that I was that the final in 2001 <_<
It was robbery, but if you don't put the ball in the net enough times... :shrug:

Still doesn't count :lol:
Tbh as I wasn't born in 89 it doesn't really have much of an impact on me. Still never seen the goal though. Actually I feel like that isn't true, wouldn't be able to picture it in my mind though.

[Mac76]

This doc is thoroughly recommended for anyone who hasn't seen it... (maybe not SIB :lol:)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPwtLQInK6g

[HCZ_Reborn]

This doc is thoroughly recommended for anyone who hasn't seen it... (maybe not SIB :lol:)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPwtLQInK6g

I watched this just before Xmas I think and it was interesting to get the players perspective, the only other time I’ve read about the players feelings about the game was Tony Adams’ “Addicted” book. Which from what I can remember, George Graham had done his best to play down the significance of the game to the players (in order presumably to take the weight off their shoulders) but yet apparently told the players in the dressing room at Anfield that he thought that they would win 3-0.
This was despite the fact that we hadn’t won at Anfield at all since 1974.

Would have been interesting how things might have gone down if Hillsborough hadn’t happened, it caused the pause of the league season for two weeks. I’m not even sure if it was meant to be the last fixture of the season to be honest or whether it had been re-scheduled.

Had we beaten Wimbledon and Derby we would have gone there only needing a draw. But you wonder how much the Liverpool players were affected by Hillsborough, the expectation to win the title for the dead fans.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Still doesn't count :lol:
Tbh as I wasn't born in 89 it doesn't really have much of an impact on me. Still never seen the goal though. Actually I feel like that isn't true, wouldn't be able to picture it in my mind though.

I just assume everyone in this place is older than me :lol:

There is the emotional significance of Hillsborough and what it would surely have meant for fans to cement the title on the last day for the dead fans and to stick it in the eye of a largely unsympathetic establishment. I do find it depressing that some of the narrative about Liverpool fans being responsible for their own deaths still lingers despite the evidence pointing the blame where it firmly belongs, South Yorkshire Police.

But what Liverpool had won before hand and have won since, probably relegates this day into having less significance to them than it has for Arsenal fans

[Letters]

I do find it depressing that some of the narrative about Liverpool fans being responsible for their own deaths still lingers despite the evidence pointing the blame where it firmly belongs, South Yorkshire Police.
I'll be honest, I bought in to that narrative for too long. Not in a "The Sun" way of basically saying they were asking for it.
But football fans are bloody idiots, on average, so I couldn't help feel that their idiocy was a contributing factor. It seems increasingly clear that wasn't actually the case.


But what Liverpool had won before hand and have won since, probably relegates this day into having less significance to them than it has for Arsenal fans
It has to be remembered that for Arsenal fans it was the first title since 1971, and it seemed like a young side had crumbled under the pressure and fallen short.
And it being the last game of the season, and it being a winner takes all, and given Liverpool's record at Anfield. And to nick it in the dying seconds.
You can still all that up your "Aguerooo". That one doesn't even compare.

I actually think had we just needed a draw we might not have got one. Liverpool would have gone for it more and would probably have steamrolled us.
Impossible to know of course. But as it was it was a cagey, boring first half. Liverpool knowing a draw was good enough, us knowing we couldn't afford to fall behind.
It ramped up in the second half, particularly after Smith's goal.
My one slight regret is I wasn't more in to football and I didn't go up to Highbury after the result. But it was late and I was 15 and quite a young 15.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Talking about the Smith goal, that documentary that Mac posted basically suggests that the Liverpool players had no reason to protest the goal and didn’t seem to offer one, I think originally they’d suggested Smith hadn’t made contact and the ball had gone straight in from an indirect free kick (which I’ve always found to be a strange rule anyway) and largely they were just hoping to pressure the ref and the linesman into not giving it (cheating bastards)

The whole game was pretty unspectacular barring the two goals. In the days where back passes to the keeper were legitimate it was a lot of shadow boxing. We played like a team playing with five defenders and Liverpool played like a team that as you rightly state didn’t need to win.

Even at 1-0 down they never tried to put significant pressure on us and played more like they were defending a 1-0 lead (which I suppose in a roundabout way they were).


Well I think Hillsborough happening only four years after Heysel probably didn’t help Liverpool fans much (in terms of public perception). But frankly UEFA never took its share of blame for giving the match to a stadium that wasn’t fit for purpose to begin with (I think both Liverpool and Juventus fans were chucking bits of the stadium at each other).

Similarly Hillsborough wasn’t fit for purpose, a non fatal crush had happened in the same semi final fixture the year before. The main problem was the police wanted Liverpool fans penned in to one area where they could control them so despite the fact that they had far more travelling support than Forest they were kept in the Leppings lane end where as the Forest fans were spread out.

Putting a matchday commander in charge who had never been a matchday commander before, and had only visited Hillsborough the morning of the match certainly didn’t help. The irony is Duckenfeld caused the crush in order to prevent a crush outside the ground where fans were caught in a bottleneck. But if he knew the ground well enough, he would have closed off one gate and forced the fans to go down the side pen into the less populated areas of the ground.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

I just assume everyone in this place is older than me :lol:

There is the emotional significance of Hillsborough and what it would surely have meant for fans to cement the title on the last day for the dead fans and to stick it in the eye of a largely unsympathetic establishment. I do find it depressing that some of the narrative about Liverpool fans being responsible for their own deaths still lingers despite the evidence pointing the blame where it firmly belongs, South Yorkshire Police.

But what Liverpool had won before hand and have won since, probably relegates this day into having less significance to them than it has for Arsenal fans

I just assume everyone is Letters tbh. Me as well.

I think obviously we were gutted not to win it, but I think us having the cup final against Everton was such a cathartic event it somewhat softened the blow.

I do find it interesting that Thomas went on to have an equally-long career with us (and even scored in a cup final win) that he is still actually held in very high regard with us. Even more interesting is finding out who scored the opening goal in 89 :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It's World Cup Qualifiers so I'll start a thread for this I think.

[Letters]

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/15xfKfV8MD/?mibextid=wwXIfr

:haha:

[Mac76]

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/15xfKfV8MD/?mibextid=wwXIfr

:haha:

Sorta, though i fucking hate mcdonalds - shit company, shit food - haven't been there in over forty years

Also that woman laughing... calm DOWN dear... :rolleyes:

[Letters]

Sigh.
They’re both terrible imo, but the joke is the trolling, not the accuracy of the chant :rolleyes:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sigh.
They’re both terrible imo, but the joke is the trolling, not the accuracy of the chant :rolleyes:

My mate swears blind he went into a KFC and they’d literally run out of chicken. The one thing you’d actually go there for.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://youtu.be/kI6ioPSKUgQ?si=WKxU7-s_nViCeFgY

[dazthegooner]

WHAT!!! They were trolling? seriously what is the world coming to? :)

[Letters]

My mate swears blind he went into a KFC and they’d literally run out of chicken. The one thing you’d actually go there for.

There was this whole thing

https://www.aboutresilience.com/humor-and-humility-saved-the-chicken-the-kfc-logistics-blunder/

[HCZ_Reborn]

There was this whole thing

https://www.aboutresilience.com/humor-and-humility-saved-the-chicken-the-kfc-logistics-blunder/

Yes I recall seperate incident that was a breakdown with the supplier. They mainly closed shops

This was many years before this apparently, just one chain kept open despite running out of chicken. Similar EPOS failure one expects

[Mac76]

Sigh.
They’re both terrible imo, but the joke is the trolling, not the accuracy of the chant :rolleyes:

yeah sure, I get that, but you know me I can't switch off the moral outrage that easily :lol: just wish it was the other way round as I'm occasionally spotted in KFC ;)

[Letters]

While we are here, I don’t really understand the fuss about Nando’s.
It’s fine, and better than either of the above, but it’s nothing special

[HCZ_Reborn]

While we are here, I don’t really understand the fuss about Nando’s.
It’s fine, and better than either of the above, but it’s nothing special

The chicken is dry as shit, the sides are mediocre at best

[dazthegooner]

Prefer Morleys myself.

[Mac76]

While we are here, I don’t really understand the fuss about Nando’s.
It’s fine, and better than either of the above, but it’s nothing special

I've only been once, years ago, can't remember the food but the main thing that puts me off is that it's got some kind of weird ordering system I don't understand :shrug:

[Letters]

I've only been once, years ago, can't remember the food but the main thing that puts me off is that it's got some kind of weird ordering system I don't understand :shrug:
Now it’s one of those ones where you have* to scan a QR code and order online. While you’re in the restaurant. I’m not a fan of that sort of thing. It must be rubbish for the waiters - why would I tip when I’ve had to do most of the work?

*I think you can go up and order but it’s not that clear now. It’s never been waitress service

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

I've never had Nandos :unsure:

I've only ever had KFC once, as a kid, and thought it was vile.

I am partial to a Leon though, waiting at Euston/London Bridge.

[Mac76]

Now it’s one of those ones where you have* to scan a QR code and order online. While you’re in the restaurant. I’m not a fan of that sort of thing. It must be rubbish for the waiters - why would I tip when I’ve had to do most of the work?

*I think you can go up and order but it’s not that clear now. It’s never been waitress service

Hmmm, ok, not keen on QR codes/online, though we have a local food place (not nandos) where you order on a screen at the table but there's still a waitress who brings the food etc, it works ok and they've no excuse for forgetting anything, I wouldn't want everyone to do it though

[Mac76]

I've never had Nandos :unsure:

I've only ever had KFC once, as a kid, and thought it was vile.

I am partial to a Leon though, waiting at Euston/London Bridge.

Leon gets a bit messy though doesn't it (or maybe I'm eating it wrong) :lol:

[dazthegooner]

Had KFC when I was a kid I wouldn't say the chicken was under cooked but you coud still see the blood.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Leon gets a bit messy though doesn't it (or maybe I'm eating it wrong) :lol:

That is true, though the rice boxes are decent. And a good filler for a few pints in the Doric Arch/Tap.

Thankfully I don't do the London trips as much as I used to. £7.50 a pint was costing me a fortune.

[Letters]

Hmmm, ok, not keen on QR codes/online, though we have a local food place (not nandos) where you order on a screen at the table but there's still a waitress who brings the food etc, it works ok and they've no excuse for forgetting anything, I wouldn't want everyone to do it though

I went to a place one time where you had an iPad on the table which you used to order. There was a "call waiter" button on it.
I quite liked that actually. It's when you have to fiddle round with your phone and QR codes and creating an account and entering your card details and...it's putting too much burden on the customer IMO.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

So after asking everyone favourites, does anyone have a game or goal they still wince at or actively try to avoid?

For me it's definitely 2014 and the Gerrard slip. Palace was all well and good; Chelsea was where we lost it. Last year's FA Cup game against United was also fucking annoying, since it marked (though I don't think caused) a pretty rubbish end to the season for us. I also actively avoid watching anything of the 2019 CL final as well. I was at the final in 2022 and even that doesn't have the same :sick: feeling for me.

I'm guessing "that" United game ranks quite highly.

[Marc Overmars]

1995 Cup Winners Cup Final. Probably my first real memory of being gutted after football. Losing in the last min to a once in a lifetime hit was rotten.

1999 FA Cup Semi. Could and should have stopped the treble.

2001 FA Cup Final. Still can’t believe we lost that game. It was on my birthday too which was shit.

2004 CL Quarter Final. Incredible opportunity to win the CL in a year where all the elite clubs were nowhere to be seen and we were so good. We beat Chelsea all the time so to contrive to lose that game was especially heartbreaking.

2006 CL final. Despite playing most of the game with 10 we played well enough to win it but Henry fluffed a couple of decent chances. Then Larsson came on and just took advantage of some tired legs. Horrible, horrible night.

[Mac76]

For me it's definitely 2014 and the Gerrard slip

:haha:

sorry :getcoat: but that really was funny, it ranks alongside that John Terry one :lol:

I'm still trying to get over that Havertz miss a few weeks back, just a league game but it was right in front of me, it was SO bad, couldn't believe it...

[Letters]

I'm guessing "that" United game ranks quite highly.
Do you mean the 8-2? That was embarrassing but I don’t think enough was at stake for it to be something which has scarred me. Unlike…

The semi-final in 1991. Gazza etc. It was the first really big game I’d been to. I remember looking through the teams before the game and thinking “we are so much better than this lot”. And then…
I still remember the cheer that went up as I walked into the 6th form common room on the Monday morning :(

1995 CWC Final. Nayim from the half way like. Ugh :sick:

1999 FA Cup semi-final replay. Bergkamp missed the penalty, then that fucking Giggs goal which gets shown endlessly. And they win the fucking treble while we end up with nothing.

Those are the big ones although I remember being incredibly angry when we contrived to draw 4-4 with Spurs at The Emirates having been 4-2 up with a couple of minutes left. :fury:

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Tbh no I actually meant that Mike Reilly game...

I do remember that 8-2 game though. I was working an extremely slow shift at a petrol station. More bemusement than anything, like our 7-2 Vs Villa. Sometimes those results just happen.

[Mac76]

Do you mean the 8-2? That was embarrassing but I don’t think enough was at stake for it to be something which has scarred me. Unlike…

The semi-final in 1991. Gazza etc. It was the first really big game I’d been to. I remember looking through the teams before the game and thinking “we are so much better than this lot”. And then…
I still remember the cheer that went up as I walked into the 6th form common room on the Monday morning :(

1995 CWC Final. Nayim from the half way like. Ugh :sick:

1999 FA Cup semi-final replay. Bergkamp missed the penalty, then that fucking Giggs goal which gets shown endlessly. And they win the fucking treble while we end up with nothing.

Those are the big ones although I remember being incredibly angry when we contrived to draw 4-4 with Spurs at The Emirates having been 4-2 up with a couple of minutes left. :fury:

I hate that Giggs goal, I always describe it as a 'tap-in' to wind up Man Ure fans :lol:

After all, it basically was because none of our defenders really tried to tackle the f****r at all so he was just running at our goal unimpeded

[IBK]

Do you mean the 8-2? That was embarrassing but I don’t think enough was at stake for it to be something which has scarred me. Unlike…

The semi-final in 1991. Gazza etc. It was the first really big game I’d been to. I remember looking through the teams before the game and thinking “we are so much better than this lot”. And then…
I still remember the cheer that went up as I walked into the 6th form common room on the Monday morning :(

1995 CWC Final. Nayim from the half way like. Ugh :sick:

1999 FA Cup semi-final replay. Bergkamp missed the penalty, then that fucking Giggs goal which gets shown endlessly. And they win the fucking treble while we end up with nothing.

Those are the big ones although I remember being incredibly angry when we contrived to draw 4-4 with Spurs at The Emirates having been 4-2 up with a couple of minutes left. :fury:

Good calls all. Can I propose the 2011 League Cup final...losing to Birmingham City :sick:

[IBK]

...and of course the CL final...that saw me in tears at Highbury and Islington tube...with people asking me whether I was OK (a drink or two had been taken) :upset:

[Letters]

...and of course the CL final...that saw me in tears at Highbury and Islington tube...with people asking me whether I was OK (a drink or two had been taken) :upset:

:hug:

I was lucky enough to be there in 2006, so while yes the result was disappointing I think the excitement of being at a CL Final mitigated somewhat.
Good call about the 2011 League Cup Final. I was at that one too but having been so long since we'd won anything, and facing an opposition who we were clearly big favourites against, that was massively frustrating. I felt then (wrongly, thankfully) that Wenger would never win us a trophy again.
2000 UEFA Cup Final was pretty frustrating too. I was at that one too. Absolutely battered them and then lost on penalties. Sort of the reverse of the Cup Final against Man Utd!

[Marc Overmars]

2011 final was painful because of how we lost it with a calamity at the end but it doesn’t quite register the same as other notable defeats for me. I think my view on where we were heading as a club was dramatically changing at the time, win or lose I don’t think that cup win would have done anything for us. Plus it was the League Cup which is shite anyway, so it’s easily forgotten about.

[Letters]

2011 final was painful because of how we lost it with a calamity at the end but it doesn’t quite register the same as other notable defeats for me. I think my view on where we were heading as a club was dramatically changing at the time, win or lose I don’t think that cup win would have done anything for us. Plus it was the League Cup which is shite anyway, so it’s easily forgotten about.

All true, but it had been so long since a trophy - not by Spursian standards of course, but after the glory years under Wenger it seemed like a very long time.
Then finally, finally we had one put on a plate for us and we just didn't turn up. All hugely frustrating.

[IBK]

Yes of course it was a lesser cup, but in the moment I was angry and gutted by losing to 'inferior' opposition when as Letters says it was there on a plate for us and our fall from grace having been so successful in the first part of the previous decade still hurt...

[Mac76]

Not that he's bitter or anything :lol:

Fat bung-taking c***

I love the “‘Go over and ruin that team” bit - has he not been watching how bad it was during the Southgate era? Oh, soz, of course not, he's still too sour at not getting the job, especially when even Big Sam did :haha:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/mar/27/harry-redknapp-appears-to-make-nazi-salute-after-calling-thomas-tuchel-german-spy

[Letters]

He's a dinosaur.

[HCZ_Reborn]

He's a dinosaur.

Of course he is, he’s 78. He’s part of the post war boomer generation that would have associated the Germans with the Nazis . Something we did in this country for some considerable time (Fawlty Towers, Two world wars and one World Cup chant etc) even in the 1990s we had Harry Enfield doing Jurgen the German.

The problem with comments like these from Redknapp, is that in demonising Ze Germans….we lose sight of who has always been the historical enemy of England and that is France.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t avoid reading the Daily Mail but I’ll be honest i had far more problems with its invectives against Tuchel which were done in earnest when he was first appointed, then I do with a few off colour jokes made by an old fart like Redknapp

[WMUG]

Redknapp's the kind of guy who thinks that the problem with the Nazis is that they were foreign.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Redknapp's the kind of guy who thinks that the problem with the Nazis is that they were foreign.

Signed a lot of African players for someone who didn’t like foreigners

It’s as I said about changing attitudes, German baiting was quite mainstream at one time and given they’d been the primary antagonists in the two biggest conflicts in global history…I don’t think entirely unfairly. But then again if you take Fawlty Towers episode, the subject of mockery is not the German guests but Basil himself having lost his inhibitions due to concussion and spouting off his prejudices.

There’s always been a bit of jealousy towards the Germans, our footballing rivalry has been pretty one sided in many respects. For our single World Cup, West Germany and then the reunified country has four. We’ve never won the European championships but they’ve won it three times.

Then there is the fact that Germany became an economic powerhouse. Where as post war we tended to see decline, loss of Empire having to see Europe as partners rather than competitors etc.

Thatcher was opposed to reunification because she was worried about Germany leaving us for dust economically (although the re-integration of the east actually had a negative impact on Germany because of the vast disparity between west and east that’s never really been bridged, and has been the foothold for AFD to establish itself)

But anyway getting vastly off topic here (that’s something I do)….but the thing is different generations have different attitudes and the whole German/Nazi thing is considered insensitive in this day and age.

[Letters]

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32vco5

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32vco5

Brilliant :lol:

[Mac76]

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32vco5

TLDW, what's the best bit? :lol:

[Letters]

TLDW, what's the best bit? :lol:

The first minute is the most relevant to this conversation.

[Mac76]

The first minute is the most relevant to this conversation.

ah ok, I watched at least 30 seconds so i'll take that :good:

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Signed a lot of African players for someone who didn’t like foreigners

It’s as I said about changing attitudes, German baiting was quite mainstream at one time and given they’d been the primary antagonists in the two biggest conflicts in global history…I don’t think entirely unfairly. But then again if you take Fawlty Towers episode, the subject of mockery is not the German guests but Basil himself having lost his inhibitions due to concussion and spouting off his prejudices.

There’s always been a bit of jealousy towards the Germans, our footballing rivalry has been pretty one sided in many respects. For our single World Cup, West Germany and then the reunified country has four. We’ve never won the European championships but they’ve won it three times.

Then there is the fact that Germany became an economic powerhouse. Where as post war we tended to see decline, loss of Empire having to see Europe as partners rather than competitors etc.

Thatcher was opposed to reunification because she was worried about Germany leaving us for dust economically (although the re-integration of the east actually had a negative impact on Germany because of the vast disparity between west and east that’s never really been bridged, and has been the foothold for AFD to establish itself)

But anyway getting vastly off topic here (that’s something I do)….but the thing is different generations have different attitudes and the whole German/Nazi thing is considered insensitive in this day and age.

Tbf ignoring most of the post, Germany don't even really consider England as footballing rivals. Their big rivalry is the Netherlands and nothing else really comes close. To them 66 is a footnote, to England fans obviously it's everything.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Tbf ignoring most of the post, Germany don't even really consider England as footballing rivals. Their big rivalry is the Netherlands and nothing else really comes close. To them 66 is a footnote, to England fans obviously it's everything.

I would tend to agree. But then it’s far from the only one-sided rivalry in football.

der mannschaft:
https://media.tenor.com/BcbJSegK1RsAAAAe/don-draper-madmen.png

[Marc Overmars]

Salah signs a new contract.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I have mixed feelings on that, without doubt he’s been their best player this season to the point that without him they’d be in a dogfight for top 4/5 and not on the way to their first title in five years.

But he’s not getting younger and him staying means they won’t be bringing many new players through the door

Doubly so if Van Dijk (who has got away with murder this season) signs on as well.

I honestly believe that without injuries/squad mismanagement call it what you will we’d be champions and not them, that’s even taking into consideration the shocking refereeing we’ve endured

If I’m being generous, I think Hungarian copy and paste has been very good this season as well and whilst it’s too soon to say if he’s better than Odegaard he certainly has been this season.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

I have mixed feelings on that, without doubt he’s been their best player this season to the point that without him they’d be in a dogfight for top 4/5 and not on the way to their first title in five years.

But he’s not getting younger and him staying means they won’t be bringing many new players through the door

Doubly so if Van Dijk (who has got away with murder this season) signs on as well.

I honestly believe that without injuries/squad mismanagement call it what you will we’d be champions and not them, that’s even taking into consideration the shocking refereeing we’ve endured

If I’m being generous, I think Hungarian copy and paste has been very good this season as well and whilst it’s too soon to say if he’s better than Odegaard he certainly has been this season.

:lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Used to call Wojciech Szczesny copy and paste so it’s all done in that spirit :lol:

And in keeping with that spirit I did copy and paste the name from Google

[Mac76]

Salah signs a new contract.

This is a real positive in the sense he's not one of the greedy ones taking the Saudi cash and wants to play real football - he obviously feels he's got another season or two in him, however I wouldn't be surprised to see him slowing down a bit, I can't believe (famous last words here) he can be as good again next season but he only has to be half as good to earn his place, especially when they'll likely have other rebuilding to do

[IBK]

I'm sure Liverpool fans will be pleased about Salah. The rest of us have to hope that this season was his high water mark and that he won't destroy our domestic season again. His second half of this season wasn't like his first. Will age catch up with him? :pray:.

[Letters]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IyWmyR30RM

I thought this was interesting.
He really knows what he’s talking about!

[Mac76]

When I saw Watkins wasn't starting vs Citeh I wondereed if it was another example of Emery's inability to handle top players and this is more proof

https://metro.co.uk/2025/04/22/ollie-watkins-handed-arsenal-transfer-advice-dropped-aston-villa-22954995/

[HCZ_Reborn]

Bit of a stretch to be calling Ollie Watkins a top player, not even the best player at Villa

Although yes when it comes to actual top players, Emery can struggle. He struggled with Neymar at PSG and Ozil

Ozil was a cunt though, a player so immensely talented (him and Bergkamp were the most naturally gifted players to play for us in terms of technical ability) but appalling attitude. Wenger let him get away with what he wanted but invariably that will lead to bad feeling in the dressing room.


Don’t get me wrong I can understand where Watkins is coming from, he’s approaching 30 and it’s now or never in terms of a move to a big club. I hope we don’t revisit things with him in the summer, there’s only one Villa player I want and it’s not him

[Marc Overmars]

I think Watkins movement and off the ball work would make him a suitable player for us however that ship sailed in January. Villa are probably regretting not taking our 60m and we will now sign a younger striker with a higher ceiling in the summer.

[HCZ_Reborn]

We will now sign a younger striker with a higher ceiling in the summer.

Fucking hope so. Don’t get me wrong Watkins is a good player, but really would have been a sticking plaster solution

[Mac76]

I think Watkins movement and off the ball work would make him a suitable player for us however that ship sailed in January. Villa are probably regretting not taking our 60m and we will now sign a younger striker with a higher ceiling in the summer.

yes agree, something tells me Watkins wouldn't be a good fit with this squad anyway

[Mac76]

Looks like a good game and glad RM lost :good:

If we get that far it looks like Barca are vulnerable to a good free kick anyway ;)


https://youtu.be/7SYkyQpvAWI?feature=shared

[HCZ_Reborn]

Estadio Cartuja has pretty much become the de-facto National stadium in Spain

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cz01z4rdx4no


:ninja:

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cz01z4rdx4no


:ninja:


Men are banned from playing in women’s sport non story

[HCZ_Reborn]

Xabi Alonso has announced he is leaving Leverkusen and is expected to take the job at Real Madrid

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Worst kept secret in football.

[Niall_Quinn]

Men are banned from playing in women’s sport non story

It's fucking ridiculous. I go and look at the latest results and see Arsenal just spanked Man City 5-0, and I'm jumping around going, what? Didn't even know they were playing!

Then I realise it's not even the football results, it's the WOMENS "football" results! Mixed in with the real results!

How confusing is that?

Why don't they stick the tennis results in there too? Or the log-rolling Highland games latest?

[Niall_Quinn]

Looks like a good game and glad RM lost :good:

If we get that far it looks like Barca are vulnerable to a good free kick anyway ;)


https://youtu.be/7SYkyQpvAWI?feature=shared

Madrid's defending is hilarious. Makes me wonder now if 5-1 was us underperforming.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's some industrial grade cheating by that Barca diver. Wow. That's low. Rare that justice is done, but well done VAR. There seems to be some decent VAR lurking in Europe. Not 100% but certainly better than the 0% over here.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Barcelona 0-1 Real Madrid, Mbappe pelanty. After 5 minutes.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Barcelona 0-2 Real Madrid, Mbappe again!

Barca. :doh:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Barcelona 3-2 Real Madrid now. Garcia, Yamal and Raphinha.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Barcelona 3-2 Real Madrid now. Garcia, Yamal and Raphinha.

Barca seem to like coming from behind in La Liga

[McNamara That Ghost...]

4-2 now, Raphinha again.

Losing to the same team 4 times in a season. :doh:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Barcelona 4-3 Real Madrid, FT Mbappe hat-trick in the end.

[Niall_Quinn]

Barcelona 4-3 Real Madrid, FT Mbappe hat-trick in the end.

Well they are both back to playing in the B-league. Defences haven't improved despite that, I see.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Didn’t know anything about the injury to Awonyi till yesterday, the fact that he is now in an induced coma post surgery shows the Forest medical team really fucked up by keeping him on the pitch after the impact.

Fortunately the induced coma is there to keep him immobile whilst he heals post surgery, but that could have been fatal potentially

[Mac76]

Didn’t know anything about the injury to Awonyi till yesterday, the fact that he is now in an induced coma post surgery shows the Forest medical team really fucked up by keeping him on the pitch after the impact.

Fortunately the induced coma is there to keep him immobile whilst he heals post surgery, but that could have been fatal potentially

Apparently Neville said something dumb about it but i couldn't quickly find out what, no surprise though

[HCZ_Reborn]

Apparently Neville said something dumb about it but i couldn't quickly find out what, no surprise though

Ruptured intestines apparently. Non zero chance that he could have died or spent the rest of his life shitting into a bag

[Letters]

Pff. In the 80s he'd have had the magic sponge and finished the game. Modern players are such fannies #NQ.

I hadn't heard about this till this morning when I was reading about it but sounds like it could have been grim.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Tuchel set to name his England squad today

Be interesting to see if White or Nwaneri are in contention

Would expect MLS, Saka and Rice to get call ups (although Saka and Rice could well do without it)

Need to really think about a first choice defence for the World Cup

I think MLS and James should be our full backs, Konza would be one of the centre backs I’d pick. Not a fan of Guehi, Burn has a lot of the attributes Harry Maguire has without being massively incompetent so I’d consider him as well

I think Kane despite what certain people on this site think of him has one tournament left in him

Foden can fuck off, really rated him highly at one time but he was a petulant bell end all throughout Euro 2024 and he’s hardly been impressive for City this season

Left midfield, I’d give Eze maybe another go based on some of his recent Palace performances but needs to show more than the Gervinho tribute act that he’s given so far in an England shirt.

I think Palmer is better through the middle even though he can play wide, so him and Bellingham should be fighting for that position

We need a settled XI within the next six months that is used to playing with each other. I think too often under Southgate (and that was partly tactical) the team played like a bunch of strangers

I want us to go into the tournament believing we will win, not just hopeful that we can win

In terms of talent I don’t think there’s a nation that player for player is better than ours, for me we lost to Spain because they played like a team and we played like a bunch of individuals

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Sheffield United winning against Sunderland.

FFS don't want these bums up again.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sheffield United winning against Sunderland.

FFS don't want these bums up again.

Let’s be fair it doesn’t really matter. Both of these clubs would go straight back down

[McNamara That Ghost...]

They would.

At least Sunderland brings the Tyne-Wear derby though.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It was 2-0, but chalked off for offside

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-1!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-2 Sunderland!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Sunderland promoted!!!

Sheffield United. :haha:

[HCZ_Reborn]

FT. Sunderland back in the premier league for first time in eight years

[Letters]

So now we know the 3rd team to be relegated next season

[Niall_Quinn]

FT. Sunderland back in the premier league for first time in eight years

Haven't they had a huge bunch of arab cash dumped in too? Or maybe it was somebody else in div2, or whatever they call it these days.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Haven't they had a huge bunch of arab cash dumped in too? Or maybe it was somebody else in div2, or whatever they call it these days.

No they are owned by one of the younger members of Lewis-Dreyfus family

[HCZ_Reborn]

So the BBC finally gives Gary Lineker the elbow and his Swansong was yesterday

Haven’t watched Match of the Day in years, but ultimately whilst everyone is entitled to their opinion (no matter how vapid, hypocritical and ill informed) when you are paid mega bucks by the national broadcaster which is meant at least to have the appearance of impartiality…..his social media activity wasn’t really conducive to that end.

There’s a lot of moist obituaries from the cluster of liberal progressives (who are quite illiberal and regressive in reality) about what a thoroughly decent chap Lineker is. I don’t think he’s a bad guy, but he is a nitwit (he’s far from alone in that though).

[Letters]

I quite like him. I saw some documentary years ago in which he said that when he was a player he was thinking about what would come next and when he was giving interviews after games he would take an interest in what the presenter was doing and the more technical aspects of making TV. He's that rare beast, an intelligent footballer. When he went abroad he actually learned the lingo, for example. You may disagree with his views, and I agree that as a BBC employee he should have kept some of those to himself. But I don't have a particular issue with him.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It’s not even a question of disagreement, to constantly retweet the stuff he does…he either has to be stupid or malign and pretending to be stupid.

You can be pro Palestinian without amplifying things that compare Zionists (let’s be fair Jews, given the vast majority of the diaspora is Zionist) to rats or stuff with links to extremists. And yet he has the gall to chide other people for making comments redolent of 1930s Germany.

So either he’s not very bright at all or he’s an arsehole deliberately baiting others.

[Niall_Quinn]

I quite like him. I saw some documentary years ago in which he said that when he was a player he was thinking about what would come next and when he was giving interviews after games he would take an interest in what the presenter was doing and the more technical aspects of making TV. He's that rare beast, an intelligent footballer. When he went abroad he actually learned the lingo, for example. You may disagree with his views, and I agree that as a BBC employee he should have kept some of those to himself. But I don't have a particular issue with him.

Course you do. He's an epic cunt.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fabregas has reportedly agreed to take over from Simone Inzaghi at Inter

[Marc Overmars]

Massive job for him that. Good luck to him though, best young player I’ve ever seen play for us.

Wenger not signing him in 2014 when he left Barca was a huge mistake.

[dazthegooner]

[QUOTE=Marc Overmars;4610518]Massive job for him that. Good luck to him though, best young player I’ve ever seen play for us.

Ah but he wasn't a Jamie O'Hara...:haha:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Spain 2-0 France in the Nations League semi-final.


Williams and Merino. :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

4-0 now. Yamal pelanty and Pedri

[McNamara That Ghost...]

4-1 Mbappe pelanty.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

5-3 now. :blink:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ended 5-4 in the end. What an absolutely batshit game

It’s an interesting snapshot into what European sides will be in contention for the World Cup next year

I think when you look at some of the players in that PSG team, you’d argue France should be contenders but as much as Gareth Southgate was a drag factor for England, I think Deschamps is a massive drag factor for France. I honestly think the French would have cleaned up if they had a better coach.

Spain as Euro winners are contenders of course but not overly impressed. Yamal is a star for them for sure, but they don’t really have a top striker….and they have a squad of good players but not many really great.

Less Bullish about England than I was a year ago, I think Bellingham has massively dropped off, and we don’t have a settled back four…and I think Tuchel needs to really get his strongest XI sorted by six months out.


Those are the only three I could see from Europe.


Outside of that? Brazil can never be discounted….theyve won the World Cup in North America before and the last time they struggled in qualifying they went on to win the tournament….and by their standards they are overdue a win.


Argentina have overtaken Brazil somewhat as the top team in South America but only once has a team retained the trophy (Brazil 1958 and 1962)


But yeah would be amazed if the winner came from outside those five

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cm2309dlepno

:partytime:

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cm2309dlepno

:partytime:

I’m trying to avoid doing work, but I really couldn’t have less of an opinion on this if I tried

[Letters]

:lol:

I don't mind him. The whole honours system is silly, I neither think he deserves it nor do I begrudge him it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

:lol:

I don't mind him. The whole honours system is silly, I neither think he deserves it nor do I begrudge him it.

Yep

[Marc Overmars]

Spurs have sacked Ange. :haha:

[dazthegooner]

Ange Postecoglou has been sacked.

[Mac76]

Spurs have sacked Ange. :haha:

:lol:

It really takes the shine off that 'trophy' for the spuds fans - the club are basically acknowledging it's meaningless :good:

hate to say it but that's the sort of ruthlessness I've talked about us needing, they could see through winning a pub cup and knew spuds were shite - pity though, i was hoping the Europa would've saved him for another season

[Letters]

Yeah. Ten Hag is the cautionary tale there.
Utd kept him because of the FA Cup win and that didn’t end well.
Spurs continue to entertain though

[HCZ_Reborn]

That’s gratitude for you :haha:

Obviously Spurs hierarchy have decided which one of us or them have had the better season :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

:lol:

It really takes the shine off that 'trophy' for the spuds fans - the club are basically acknowledging it's meaningless :good:

hate to say it but that's the sort of ruthlessness I've talked about us needing, they could see through winning a pub cup and knew spuds were shite - pity though, i was hoping the Europa would've saved him for another season

They were pretty ruthless when it came to Emery, even though he was in a tailspin of results there was never really any danger of relegation or anything. Arteta? Well we may see how ruthless they are or indeed aren’t, depending on what happens next season.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It's just who we are mate.

Levy was never going to accept league performance such as this - probably shit scared it'd get worse next season.

[Mac76]

They were pretty ruthless when it came to Emery, even though he was in a tailspin of results there was never really any danger of relegation or anything. Arteta? Well we may see how ruthless they are or indeed aren’t, depending on what happens next season.

They were actually a bit slow with Emery - I recall there was an international (or maybe winter) break before he went and a lot of people thought that would be the opportune time for someone else to take over and have a week or two to work with the squad, but the club waited until a bit later - Emery was a dead man walking for a few months, everyone knew it was just a matter of time

[HCZ_Reborn]

They were actually a bit slow with Emery - I recall there was an international (or maybe winter) break before he went and a lot of people thought that would be the opportune time for someone else to take over and have a week or two to work with the squad, but the club waited until a bit later - Emery was a dead man walking for a few months, everyone knew it was just a matter of time

Possibly, I think the assumption was amongst a lot of Arsenal fans that he’d be given to the end of the season (that’s not what they wanted, it’s just what they assumed would happen). But with Emery I don’t think it was just results, it was the fact that there wasn’t really any respect for him in the dressing room (it was reported players would make fun of his accent behind his back etc)

Plus it’s interesting that Arteta’s run a year later was far far worse than the one Emery was on (I don’t know whether they were more confident of Arteta turning things around or whether they didn’t want the big payout they’d have to make to get rid of him and his back room staff after only having done so a year earlier)


Then perhaps it’s possibly why if there is a lack of ruthlessness, a reason for it. Expensive business sacking managers…that’s certainly for me why United have been quite cautious with dismissing failing managers

[Marc Overmars]

I think Emery was seen as a more instant impact guy by the guys that appointed him.

For a while it was going well but the end of the season finished him. Missed out on top 4 despite being in pole position for while and then the absolute disaster that was the Europa League final. That finished him and a lot of those players really.

The whole regime changed with Arteta and they collectively went for the “project” way of doing things.

[HCZ_Reborn]

All Iberian Nations league final kicks off soon.

Ronaldo and his mammoth ego still captaining the Portuguese team at 40

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Portugal 1-1 Spain, Zubimendi and Nuno Mendes.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Portugal 1-2 Spain, Oyarzabal

[HCZ_Reborn]

Where as the Spanish team that won the World Cup was very much a Barcelona style team….this current Spain side has a much more Basque identity.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-2 Ronaldo.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Uriah Rennie, the former premier league referee has died

RIP (although he was a shit referee, sorry but he was)

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Penalties now!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Merino. :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Portugal win it. :wacko:

[Mac76]

Only saw the end of the second half plus all the ET but from that Portugal were the better team

[Letters]

Rennie :rose:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c0mr7xlmkxyo

Many years ago he was refereeing a game at Highbury.
A bloke behind me, who I used to call “The North Bank Loudmouth” as he used to shout out a lot - thought he was much funnier than he actually was. Anyway, Rennie gave some (in the crowd’s opinion) bad decision against us and the loudmouth shouted “You’re the only Rennie who gives me heartburn”, which was one of his better efforts

[Mac76]

Tierney got injured in a Scotland friendly...

[HCZ_Reborn]

Tierney got injured in a Scotland friendly...

Must have been quite a stiff breeze

[Letters]

:lol:

[Mac76]

I was reluctant to sell him but I guess this shows he is just too vulnerable, plus gets no let off from Scotland - Celtic are furious apparently

[HCZ_Reborn]

Why the ever loving fuck is Kyle Walker still in that England team

[HCZ_Reborn]

Jaysus 2-1 down to Senegal, just as well it’s only a friendly. But we really don’t have many chances to unfuck things and Tuchel I don’t really feel appreciates the pressing urgency

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-3 now. :lol:

[Mac76]

Just read a report of how England fans were booing, I suspect an English manager *might* have got a bit more tolerance, but whatever, as long as the racists are unhappy it's good for me :good:

[Letters]

Maybe Southgate wasn’t the problem

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cx27z1l5pdzo

If people are asking if we’ve regressed since Southgate, that performance last night must have been diabolical. I’d have to ask even if it’s possible to regress from the dire depressing football that was on display last year. In the back of my mind I was hoping at times England went out because I just couldn’t take how bad the football was at times.

Things change in a short period of time, 12 months ago I put us as the favourites for the World Cup in 2026 and why it was important to get the coach appointment right. But I think we don’t have a settled back four, we still massively over rely on Kane who clearly goes missing in at least half the games and some of Tuchel’s squad selection has been eccentric to say the least.

I don’t think there’s any particularly great national side out there truth be told, it should be the French as the talent they’ve been churning out over the last five-ten years has been phenomenal but for some reason they’ve stuck with Didier Deschamps who should be considered a national embarrassment (they got to the semi finals off the back of their defensive solidity, and despite scoring through two own goals and a penalty)

I’m prepared to put this down as a free hit, an error in judgement by both the coach in some of his team selection and the FA in having this utterly unnecessary and ridiculous fixture to begin with.

[Mac76]

I didn't watch it but you're not going to convince me the players aren't tired, on the beach and probably asking themselves how long Tuchel will last

TBH I think the Tuchel project has a heavy chance of failure, not necessarily because he couldn't in theory do a good job, but there will be zero goodwill there from the team, crowd or media

The only way he could succeed was by not caring about that and being a radical new broom - playing Hendo and Kane shows he's a coward so the whole thing's pointless

[Letters]

I’m prepared to put this down as a free hit, an error in judgement by both the coach in some of his team selection and the FA in having this utterly unnecessary and ridiculous fixture to begin with.
Yeah.
I don't really care about results outside of the finals in major tournaments.
Even the qualifiers, so long as we blunder through - and we pretty much always do - I don't really care about results or performances.

But spoiler: we aren't going to win the World Cup next year and I never understood why you thought we were. I've seen this shit for decades now, we believe we should be contenders but we never really are. It's why I don't understand the uber-criticism of Southgate. He got us to 2 finals, one of those being the first one on foreign soil in our history. OK, we didn't win them but it's more than anyone else has done in my lifetime. The criticism stems from a (in my view misguided) belief that we have the best squad around, or one of them, and under a different manager we'd... But again, I've been hearing that shit for decades too.

We are the Spurs of International football. We're not terrible, but we're not good enough to go and win the biggest trophies.
(That analogy worked better than it does now of course, but even the Europa League isn't what it was - they hardly swept aside the cream of Europe)

[HCZ_Reborn]

I didn't watch it but you're not going to convince me the players aren't tired, on the beach and probably asking themselves how long Tuchel will last

TBH I think the Tuchel project has a heavy chance of failure, not necessarily because he couldn't in theory do a good job, but there will be zero goodwill there from the team, crowd or media

The only way he could succeed was by not caring about that and being a radical new broom - playing Hendo and Kane shows he's a coward so the whole thing's pointless

Yeah I don’t disagree with most of that. I think a friendly two weeks after the season has ended and there’s no international tournament or anything like that is just pointless.


The problem with ditching Kane is that there really isn’t anyone who is getting the sheer volume of goals he gets at club level who looks like they are a ready made replacement, overlooking the fact that for one reason or another that it’s fair to say you’re not a fan of his. Ollie Watkins ? Inconsistent and inconsistently played. Solanke? Not a top striker. Toney? Well he’d have to come back to Europe for us to even gauge his worth.

The only viable option would be to do an Arteta and try and turn Cole Palmer into a striker. But difference is Havertz can hold up the ball, and Cole Palmer isn’t so great at that, nor is he especially blessed with pace to compensate for that.

[Letters]

The only way he could succeed was by not caring about that and being a radical new broom - playing Hendo and Kane shows he's a coward so the whole thing's pointless
I know you have this weird thing about Kane, I think based purely on the fact he played for Spurs, but you know he's been the Bundasliga's top scorer for the past two seasons, by a fair distance too. Who is better? He's obviously getting to the age where we need to transition away from him but I reckon he's gone one more World Cup in him.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://x.com/roynemer/status/1932613465178583533?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw

One should not be convulsing on the floor like that, unless one is having a genuine seizure and unless the guy pissed himself I think this was monumental play acting. Now Fernandez is sent off for a high boot, and whilst he’s going for the ball one can argue it’s dangerous play, but it doesn’t seem like he even catches this guy.

[Letters]

Without wishing to go all NQ, can you imagine a footballer back in the day doing that?
They are a load of fannies these days.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yeah.
I don't really care about results outside of the finals in major tournaments.
Even the qualifiers, so long as we blunder through - and we pretty much always do - I don't really care about results or performances.

But spoiler: we aren't going to win the World Cup next year and I never understood why you thought we were. I've seen this shit for decades now, we believe we should be contenders but we never really are. It's why I don't understand the uber-criticism of Southgate. He got us to 2 finals, one of those being the first one on foreign soil in our history. OK, we didn't win them but it's more than anyone else has done in my lifetime. The criticism stems from a (in my view misguided) belief that we have the best squad around, or one of them, and under a different manager we'd... But again, I've been hearing that shit for decades too.

We are the Spurs of International football. We're not terrible, but we're not good enough to go and win the biggest trophies.
(That analogy worked better than it does now of course, but even the Europa League isn't what it was - they hardly swept aside the cream of Europe)

No I know you don’t understand.

We got to two finals largely off the back of having favourable draws. And we got there because we have for the last few years been in the top three of national sides by quality in the squad.

Your mentality comes from thinking everyone who claims England can or should win a tournament is just projecting empty jingoism. Euro 2024 I knew we had no chance of winning because of Southgate. I think given the awful job Deschamps was doing with France, that tournament was very winnable and the Spain side was better on the day but in terms of comparison in terms of quality of players in almost every area we were superior to them. So no I’m not going to be pathetically grateful for Southgate doing the bare minimum with the talent he had at his disposal.

Now a year on? So many players have regressed. The defence showed that it needed upgrading in Euro 2024 (and arguably the World Cup before that) and yet Tuchel is still fannying about with Kyle Walker and trying out Nathaniel Chalobah…it’s a joke.

Bellingham has gone backwards, Saka and Rice have come back from major injury and played too much football respectively.

Palmer, Lewis-Skelly and even Eze could be assets to this team if they are played properly

As I said apart from France where they seem to be churning out prodigious talent at an alarming rate, there isn’t any national side that looks especially great. Argentina? Not great defensively, also lack a creative player in the mould of Riquelme. Brazil? No top striker, inconsistent attacking players…still playing fucking Casemiro in midfield

So yes I had every confidence to think that a settled England team playing positive tactics could win the World Cup and even should win the World Cup

Even now I don’t think outright the players are lacking to achieve this, I think the structure and set up of the FA, the fact that it lacked ruthlessness and held onto Southgate far too long and now we are expecting this guy to hit the ground running doesn’t give me the confidence that we will do what’s necessary

[Mac76]

the Spain side was better on the day but in terms of comparison in terms of quality of players in almost every area we were superior to them.

completely disagree

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ok so will break down how I see it


Pickford or Simon - Neither are great, if Spain picked Raya I’d go for him but as they don’t I’m going for Pickford

Cucurella/Shaw - Both equally shite

Guehi/Laporte - Laporte

Stones/Le Normand - As of 2024, Stones

Walker/Carvajal - Both old, Walker is lazy, Carvajal not a full back. Carvajal just edges it

Rodri/Rice - Rodri

Mainoo/Ruiz - Not really fair comparison as different players but probably Ruiz


Olmo/Foden - Foden (had a shit season but is a better player)


Bellingham/Williams - Bellingham


Saka/Yamal - Saka when they played, now not as sure


Kane/Morata - Kane


So maybe not as close as I stated originally but still overall better in my view

Southgate’s failure to get the attacking talent at his disposal working was a monumental failure

[Marc Overmars]

Honestly couldn’t care less about these fixtures especially the ones at the end of the season. Pretty sure everyone in this squad is ready for the beach right now. Didn’t we lose to Iceland last year before the Euros and got battered by Hungary the year before?

As ever with England, what happens at the tournaments will determine where this squad is at.

[Mac76]

Ok so will break down how I see it


Pickford or Simon - Neither are great, if Spain picked Raya I’d go for him but as they don’t I’m going for Pickford

Cucurella/Shaw - Both equally shite

Guehi/Laporte - Laporte

Stones/Le Normand - As of 2024, Stones

Walker/Carvajal - Both old, Walker is lazy, Carvajal not a full back. Carvajal just edges it

Rodri/Rice - Rodri

Mainoo/Ruiz - Not really fair comparison as different players but probably Ruiz


Olmo/Foden - Foden (had a shit season but is a better player)


Bellingham/Williams - Bellingham


Saka/Yamal - Saka when they played, now not as sure


Kane/Morata - Kane


So maybe not as close as I stated originally but still overall better in my view

Southgate’s failure to get the attacking talent at his disposal working was a monumental failure

Cucurella is actually a good player, don't let the stupid haircut fool you - and even if he's just average he's still a million miles better than Shaw

Stones is no better than Le Normand

Olmo is better than Foden and anyway if you have a 'shit season' you're clearly not that good - being consistent is part of being 'good'

Yamal totally owns Saka

[Mac76]

I know you have this weird thing about Kane, I think based purely on the fact he played for Spurs, but you know he's been the Bundasliga's top scorer for the past two seasons, by a fair distance too. Who is better? He's obviously getting to the age where we need to transition away from him but I reckon he's gone one more World Cup in him.

The point about Kane, as Hcz said he goes missing, he is also slow, plus has a propensity to drop deep, therefore leaving us headless

OK, he makes sure he pops up for the obligatory pel, tap-in, or rebound off his backside, but that's doesn't help the team overall to be more dynamic in attack

He's not playing for the team he's playing for himself

[Letters]

Honestly couldn’t care less about these fixtures especially the ones at the end of the season. Pretty sure everyone in this squad is ready for the beach right now. Didn’t we lose to Iceland last year before the Euros and got battered by Hungary the year before?

As ever with England, what happens at the tournaments will determine where this squad is at.

:gp:

Exactly this. I didn't even know we were playing.

[Mac76]

:gp:

Exactly this. I didn't even know we were playing.

nor did I tbf, but now I do I'm wading in :lol:

[Letters]

We got to two finals largely off the back of having favourable draws. And we got there because we have for the last few years been in the top three of national sides by quality in the squad.
We've had favourable draws other times and not got anywhere. As for quality of squad...I'm a little sceptical about that claim. I think generally it's hard comparing. It's not just about player quality, sometimes you get teams which are more than the sum of their parts, sometimes it's the reverse.
We do have a pretty good squad but it's not some world-beating golden generation which should be sweeping the board as you seem to think.


Your mentality comes from thinking everyone who claims England can or should win a tournament is just projecting empty jingoism
My mentality comes from decades of people saying "it's coming home" and it...not coming home.
The blame is always given to the manager, and you could say the buck stops with them but it's different from club football. You can only work with what you have, you can't make signings. So after decades of this - some certainly fuelled by empty jingoism although not always - I tend to believe that its failure to come home is more to do with our players not actually being good enough.


Euro 2024 I knew we had no chance of winning because of Southgate.
And yet there we were in the final. We only got beaten by a side who pretty much everyone but you regards as superior to our own.
You don't have to be pathetically grateful but nor would I be overly scathing of the only manager in our lifetimes to get us to the finals of major competitions. The only one in history to get us to two finals and one on foreign soil.

If you dumped Arsenal in the Europa League then they should win it - we are clearly a level above the sides in those competition. England are not a level above the other credible winners of the World Cup. I'd say we have a chance but in no world are we as clear favourites as you seem to think.

All that said - I don't care about recent results or performances. It's all about next summer, nothing before that really matters.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Cucurella is actually a good player, don't let the stupid haircut fool you - and even if he's just average he's still a million miles better than Shaw

Stones is no better than Le Normand

Olmo is better than Foden and anyway if you have a 'shit season' you're clearly not that good - being consistent is part of being 'good'

Yamal totally owns Saka

Stones is no better than Le Normand now, I think he’s dropped off considerably


But as I said I was assessing these players as we were in July 2024. And no Yamal wasn’t better than Saka then, Yamal has had an exceptional season and Saka has not (mainly through injury) in terms of potential I think Yamal probably has a higher ceiling in that he could become one of the best players of a generation. But back then? He was a raw youngster


Foden had just had an amazing season with City, and I think his ability level is far higher than that of Dani Olmo. I don’t disagree with you that consistency is key to how a player should be rated and to that end the players let themselves down as much as Southgate’s negative tactics did, but in terms of natural ability I think Foden is vastly superior and it will be up to him to show it


And no Cucurella isn’t a good defender in my view, I think a lot of the criticism you apply to Calafiori could be applied to him. He’s often positionally indisciplined and he’s a thug. Shaw like Trippier has no business in that England team, and I’d say Lewis Skelly is superior to Cucurella

[HCZ_Reborn]

We've had favourable draws other times and not got anywhere. As for quality of squad...I'm a little sceptical about that claim. I think generally it's hard comparing. It's not just about player quality, sometimes you get teams which are more than the sum of their parts, sometimes it's the reverse.
We do have a pretty good squad but it's not some world-beating golden generation which should be sweeping the board as you seem to think.


My mentality comes from decades of people saying "it's coming home" and it...not coming home.
The blame is always given to the manager, and you could say the buck stops with them but it's different from club football. You can only work with what you have, you can't make signings. So after decades of this - some certainly fuelled by empty jingoism although not always - I tend to believe that its failure to come home is more to do with our players not actually being good enough.


And yet there we were in the final. We only got beaten by a side who pretty much everyone but you regards as superior to our own.
You don't have to be pathetically grateful but nor would I be overly scathing of the only manager in our lifetimes to get us to the finals of major competitions. The only one in history to get us to two finals and one on foreign soil.

If you dumped Arsenal in the Europa League then they should win it - we are clearly a level above the sides in those competition. England are not a level above the other credible winners of the World Cup. I'd say we have a chance but in no world are we as clear favourites as you seem to think.

All that said - I don't care about recent results or performances. It's all about next summer, nothing before that really matters.

You’re doing that thing that Mac does which is to transpose your own opinion and make it a universal one. It’s a very silly thing to do. He’s motivated by being self-hating English, and yours comes from a form of “it’s the hope that kills you”.



Spain were only favourites for that final because of how shit we’d played. Now I accept that you can have lots of good individual players but if they don’t play like a team it’s not going to work, and to that end as a team Spain functioned better. But in terms of individual talent, yes I think we were superior and I don’t think it’s controversial.

I’m not a jingoist, nor for the most part do I care that much about the national side, it always has and always will be a distant second place to Arsenal. I don’t do any of this “it’s coming home” shit, it’s beneath me.

And there’s never been a time previous before the last two years or so where I’ve remotely thought England can or should be competing for tournaments. So you’re welcome to disagree all you like, but don’t mistake my opinion for misplaced parochialism.

[Mac76]

He’s motivated by being self-hating English”.


Oh do please fuck off, that's highly offensive bullshit, I'm just not that nationalistic and biizarrely in the same post you say you're not particularly nationalistic either so does that make you self-hating English too?

And don't bother replying you fuckwit, I'm not interested

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh do please fuck off, that's highly offensive bullshit, I'm just not that nationalistic and biizarrely in the same post you say you're not particularly nationalistic either so does that make you self-hating English too?

And don't bother replying you fuckwit, I'm not interested

I think someone who suggests without evidence that England fans were being racist for booing last night as if somehow they didn’t boo Gareth Southgate is probably self hating English yes

And if the accusation upsets you and you find it highly offensive, maybe consider how wise it was essentially accusing me of being a sex offender because I used an expression you disapproved of. Or your snotty post last night (which you seem to have taken down now).

[Mac76]

I think someone who suggests without evidence that England fans were being racist for booing last night as if somehow they didn’t boo Gareth Southgate is probably self hating English yes

And if the accusation upsets you and you find it highly offensive, maybe consider how wise it was essentially accusing me of being a sex offender because I used an expression you disapproved of. Or your snotty post last night (which you seem to have taken down now).

I didn't say that England fans booing was racist (in fact if you're talking about last night's game I didn't even know they had booed until you just wrote it), all I said is that he will face early antagonism from some fans and media because he is German (which is a nationalist, not racist, thing btw) - if you don't think that's true you're living on another planet

I never accused you of being a sex offender i simply pointed out you had a habit of using metaphors relating to sexual deviance on a very regular basis and it's not a wild assertion to say that perhaps meant you had (and i quote) an "unhealthy interest" in such matters - which isn't the same as saying you practice them

And yes I took the post down because it was a bit over the top and I couldn't be bothered with it

[Letters]

You’re doing that thing that Mac does which is to transpose your own opinion and make it a universal one.
Not really - we had this conversation before. I don't remember many serious people saying that England have such a strong squad that we should be sweeping all before us. There was something about us being pre-tournament favourites but that was probably based on excitable England fans betting. I think most people believed us to be contenders, but not strong favourites.


yours comes from a form of “it’s the hope that kills you
Not really, it comes from a disagreement about the strength of England compared with other nations in terms of our squad.
Again, you put Arsenal in the Europa League and we should be winning it, given the quality of opposition.
England aren't head and shoulders above the other sides, we're one of the better ones so a contender, but it's not a complete disgrace that we didn't win it.


But in terms of individual talent, yes I think we were superior and I don’t think it’s controversial.
Cool. Then you should be able to provide lots of articles from the time in which people were saying that - and by "people" I don't mean Barry from FB.


I’m not a jingoist
I know you aren't, but there has definitely been a lot of it about. The whole notion of "it's coming home" - basically saying we own football so of course we should be winning things. Flies in the face of all the available evidence.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You admitted yourself back last year that you don’t really know much about the international scene, so with respect I’m wondering what your basis of comparison is.

I also don’t recall saying that England was so far above everyone else that it should sweep all before it. There’s only one national side I know of capable of that, and it was around before I was born (the Brazil side of 1970)

A reasonable expectation would be that it wouldn’t limp lamely into the final and put on a display you might expect from a mid or lower half table team in a cup final (which actually is an insult to palace who showed far more guile and determination than England did against Spain). Spain of 2008-2012 would be superior to this England team, Germany of 2014, France of 2018 would be as well.

But England was producing some excellent young players in a way that other national sides weren’t so much to the point where a coach with his head screwed on could have won us that tournament.

It’s a bit like seeding in Tennis, Andy Murray was world no 1 8-9 years ago, this was reflective of the funk Nadal and Djokovic were in and that Federer was at the end of his career. He had a narrow window to pick up more than the three grand slams that he did, but ultimately pressure and a recurrent hip injury meant he didn’t take that opportunity.

That I would say is the best comparison I can make in terms of how I viewed and to a degree still do view England

[Letters]

You admitted yourself back last year that you don’t really know much about the international scene, so with respect I’m wondering what your basis of comparison is.
I just don't remember a prevailing mood at the time that we were the best side and therefore should win it.
As I said I think we were made favourites by the bookies but that's like Arsenal being made favourites for the CL after we beat Real Madrid. It's largely based on excited fans betting. If anything the fact we were "favourites" was met with some raised eyebrows.
Most people thought we had a chance - I did - but I never thought we were favourites.
Some of that may be based on "30 years of hurt", admittedly.


A reasonable expectation would be that it wouldn’t limp lamely into the final and put on a display you might expect from a mid or lower half table team in a cup final
I actually think we grew in the tournament. In the group we were admittedly bloody awful but we got better as we went on. The final was disappointing but in my mind - and in most people's mind, I think - we were just beaten by the better side there.

The Andy Murray comparison is interesting and it's plausible these last few tournaments were our best chance in a while. I guess the fact we got to 2 finals and lost to eventual finalists in the World Cup shows we were contenders. I'm just don't by that with a better coach we'd... I've been hearing that shit for decades.

[HCZ_Reborn]

No the prevailing mood was that Southgate was too much of a drag factor, I said France because of the talent they have which I think did exceed ours but Deschamps is awful as head coach…that French side could have cleaned up at every international tournament since 2016.

There was improvement in the Switzerland and Netherlands games but it was from abysmal to poor, and it fluctuated from poor to abysmal throughout the final.

We weren’t much better in Euro 2020, the group stage was painful, the way we were hanging on in the semis against Denmark and the way we completely went in our shells against the Italians in the final. Just overly cautious football.

The only time the team showed a glimpse of its true potential was for a fifteen minute period after Kane’s penalty against the French in the last quarter final, Bellingham and Saka absolutely bamboozled them and they couldn’t cope.

Southgate should have gone after that World Cup. He had got us out of the doldrums which was to be admired but he was incapable of taking us that further step forward. Would we have won Euro 2024 if he had, well a) depends who we brought in and b) nothing is guaranteed but I think we wouldn’t have stunk out the place or been so passive in the final

[Letters]

No the prevailing mood was that Southgate was too much of a drag factor
That was your mood. Can you evidence is was the prevailing one?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think even before the World Cup, there was genuine concern that we weren’t moving forward …especially when we were relegated from the nations league A section.

The results before Euro 2024 were not great either. The papers were cautiously optimistic in keeping with the bookmakers (who certainly don’t base their considerations of odds, on sentiment) but much of the online fan base reflected the view I had that Southgate didn’t know how to get the best out of these players, and in terms of performances Euro 2024 was awful beyond my expectations…the sheer ineptitude of the football.

[Letters]

much of the online fan base reflected the view I had that Southgate didn’t know how to get the best out of these players
I think that's probably true. My point is...twas ever thus.
Every England manager in my lifetime has been hammered by the press after an initial honeymoon period.
Wasn't Robson nearly hounded out after failure in '88 only to oversee a fairly heroic run in Italian '90 (which also contained some blundering through, we needed 2 penalties to beat Cameroon and only beat Belgium with a last gasp Platt goal).

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think that's probably true. My point is...twas ever thus.
Every England manager in my lifetime has been hammered by the press after an initial honeymoon period.
Wasn't Robson nearly hounded out after failure in '88 only to oversee a fairly heroic run in Italian '90 (which also contained some blundering through, we needed 2 penalties to beat Cameroon and only beat Belgium with a last gasp Platt goal).

The difference is the bookies didn’t make us favourites in Italia 90, in fact largely the only parallel was how the media were panning the manager and team during the group stage

The only previous tournament where there was genuine opinion that England could win beyond empty optimism was Euro 96

As I said Euro 2024 odds, weren’t a reflection of what a great side we were, but that we were probably the best overall amongst a lot of other good but not great teams

[McNamara That Ghost...]

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/2025/june/thomas-frank-joins-as-head-coach/

Thomas Frank :lol:

Always knew he was a cunt.

[Marc Overmars]

The moment things don’t go their way their fans are bound to make it toxic.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Have to admit that’s probably a good choice. Frank done an excellent job with Brentford

The fact that it’s happened quite quickly makes me think they had already unofficially met with him a while ago and then pushed Ange out when they got a verbal agreement from him to join

[Mac76]

The moment things don’t go their way their fans are bound to make it toxic.

I remember being worried wwhen Conte went there but he soon discovered how bad it was

Their winning the EL really is a disaster, not only can we not joke about their never winning anything anymore, but they've CL football which means they can recruit a decent manager and better players

the decision not to have CL teams dropping down into the EL really was a bad bad bad mistake

[Marc Overmars]

To be honest any Premier League entrant into the Europa and Conference Leagues will be considered favourites.

[Letters]

I remember being worried wwhen Conte went there but he soon discovered how bad it was

Their winning the EL really is a disaster, not only can we not joke about their never winning anything anymore, but they've CL football which means they can recruit a decent manager and better players

the decision not to have CL teams dropping down into the EL really was a bad bad bad mistake

They've been in the CL before :shrug:
They had their moment but now the dust has settled I think most of them realise what a shitty season it was for them.
They won a trophy for 2nd rate teams. That may be sour grapes but it is also true. Fuck 'em.

[Mac76]

They've been in the CL before :shrug:


...and made the final, that was a horrible time and I really don't want to see it again

and anyway that doesn't negate the point that being in the CL helps with recruitment

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’m totally committed to not worrying what spurs do or don’t do

I think champions league will help with recruitment but they really need help, the problem is their recruitment model has largely been with the priority of keeping the wage bill down. We complain about KSE (and with justification of course) but that club absolutely are penny pinchers. They really do just want champions league for the money rather than as a springboard to something bigger

Also I’m old enough to remember when they spent a fuck ton of money bringing in loads of new players and how well that season worked out for them.

[Letters]

and anyway that doesn't negate the point that being in the CL helps with recruitment
Well that is true, but I think any player would consider the league season they just had and their general Spursyness.
I'm not worried about them.

[Mac76]

Well that is true, but I think any player would consider the league season they just had and their general Spursyness.
I'm not worried about them.

Some people, maybe even you, said that before the EL final

[Letters]

Some people, maybe even you, said that before the EL final

Not me.
They won a Mickey Mouse competition in European terms.
Any of the CL quarter finalists would (or certainly should) have won it.