This Weekend's Fixtures & Midweek Fixtures (20/21/23/24/25 Apr)

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Saturday 20th April 2024
Luton v Brentford, 15:00
Sheffield United v Burney, 15:00
Wolverhampton Wanderers v Arsenal, 19:30 https://i.imgur.com/htwHZ0c.jpg

Sunday, 21st April 2024
Everton v Nottingham Forest, 13:30 https://i.imgur.com/htwHZ0c.jpg
Aston Villa v Bournemouth, 15:00
Crystal Palace v West Ham United, 15:00
Fulham v Liverpool, 16:30 https://i.imgur.com/htwHZ0c.jpg

Tuesday, 23rd April 2024
Arsenal v Chelsea, 20:00 https://i.imgur.com/tM2pRxb.png

Wednesday, 24th April 2024
Wolverhampton Wanderers v Bournemouth, 19:45
Crystal Palace v Newcastle United, 20:00
Everton v Liverpool, 20:00 https://i.imgur.com/htwHZ0c.jpg
Manchester United v Sheffield United, 20:00

Thursday, 25th April 2024
Brighton & Hove Albion v Manchester City, 20:00 https://i.imgur.com/htwHZ0c.jpg

[HCZ_Reborn]

So in the two 3 o clock games

Brentford 4-0 up against Luton. I think we are about to see all three promoted sides go straight back down again for the first time in 26 years


Burnley 4-1 up away at Sheffield United

[Marc Overmars]

Burnley are only 3 points from safety now which I didn’t realise. Though having checked their remaining fixtures they’ll do well to stay up.

They have Forest on the final day though which could be spicy if it’s not settled by then.

[Letters]

Sheffield Utd :lol:

Utterly hopeless

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Luton 1-5 Brentford

Sheffield United 1-4 Burnley are the results from earlier.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Everton 1-0 Forest, Gueye!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-0 from earlier, McNeil with it.

Crystal Palace 3-0 West Ham, Olise, Eze and Emerson OG.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Beto isn't in a good way at the moment.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palace 4-0 West Ham, Mateta.

Moyes. :haha:

Villa 0-1 Bournemouth, Solanke pelanty.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Villa 1-1 Bournemouth, Rogers.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Forest: Three extremely poor decisions - three penalties not given - which we simply cannot accept. We warned the PGMOL that the VAR is a Luton fan before the game but they didn’t change him. Our patience has been tested multiple times. NFFC will now consider its options.

:haha:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Forest. :haha:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fulham: Leno, Castagne, Adarabioyo, Bassey, Robinson; Palhinha, Lukic; Iwobi, Pereira, De Cordova-Reid; Muniz
Subs: Rodak, Tete, Reed, Jimenez, Wilson, Broja, Cairney, Traore, Ream

Liverpool: Alisson; Alexander-Arnold, Quansah, Van Dijk, Robertson; Endo, Elliott, Gravenberch, Jota, Gakpo, Diaz
Subs: Kelleher, Gomez, Mac Allister, Nunez, Szoboszlai Jones, Salah, Tsimikas, Konate

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palace 4-1 West Ham, Antonio.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Villa 2-1 Bournemouth, Diaby.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palace 5-1 West Ham, Mateta with his second.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Diaz headed wide. Poor miss.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Villa 3-1 Bournemouth, Bailey.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fulham 0-1 Liverpool, Alexander-Arnold

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palace 5-2 West Ham in the end, Henderson OG with the other.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fulham 1-1 Liverpool, Castagne! Bad defending.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fulham 1-2 Liverpool, Gravenberch.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-3 Jota, Leno chucks it in.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fulham 1-3 Liverpool, FT.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Manchester United : Onana, Dalot, Maguire, Casemiro, Wan-Bissaka, Mainoo, Eriksen, Antony, Fernandes, Garnacho, Hojlund.
Subs: Bayindir, Amrabat, McTominay, Diallo, Forson, Amass, Ogunneye, Jackson, Wheatley.

Sheffield United: Foderingham, Trusty, Ahmedhodzic, Holgate, Brooks, Osborn, Arblaster, Hamer, Bogle, Archer, Brereton.
Subs: Grbic, Norwood, Vini Souza, Ben Slimane, Larouci, Curtis, Osula, Hampson.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Crystal Palace: Henderson, Munoz, Clyne, Andersen, Richards, Mitchell, Hughes, Wharton, Eze, Ayew, Mateta.
Subs: Matthews, Ward, Tomkins, Olise, Schlupp, Edouard, Ahamada, Riedewald, Ozoh

Newcasle United: Dubravka, Murphy, Krath, Schar, Burn, Longstaff, Guimaraes, Anderson, Gordon, Isak, Barnes
Subs: Karius, Dummet, Wilson, Ritchie, Hall, Livramento, White, Murphy, Parkinson.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Wolves: Sa, S. Bueno, Kilman, T. Gomes, Semedo, Ait-Nouri, Lemina, J. Gomes, Sarabia, Doyle, Hwang.
Subs: Bentley, Doherty, Traore, Chirewa, Cunha, H. Bueno, Holman, Okoduwa, Fraser.

Bournemouth: Travers, Smith, Zabarnyi, Senesi, Kerkez, Cook, Scott, Christie, Semenyo, Kluivert, Solanke.
Subs: Neto, Kelly, Ouattara, Hill, Unal Billing, Aarons, Sadi, Gonzalez.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Pelanty to Neverton!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Everton: Pickford, Godfrey, Tarkowski, Branthwaite, Mykolenko, Harrison, Gueye, Garner, McNeil, Doucoure, Calvert-Lewin. Subs: Keane, Onana, Danjuma, Virginia, Young, Andre Gomes, Chermiti, Warrington, Hunt.

Liverpool: Alisson, Alexander-Arnold, Konate, van Dijk, Robertson, Jones, Szoboszlai, Mac Allister, Salah, Nunez, Diaz. Subs: Gomez, Endo, Elliott, Tsimikas, Gravenberch, Clark, Kelleher, Danns, Quansah.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Offside so no pelanty for Everton.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

What a pass from TAA.

Great clearance from Godfrey.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Wolves 0-1 Bournemouth, Semenyo.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Everton 1-0 Liverpool, Calvert-Lewin!! Branthwaite?! I am not sure

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It's Branthwaite's goal!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Pickford saves from Nunez, what a chance!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Bogle scores for Sheffield United at Old Trafford

Lolz

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Man Utd 0-1 Sheffield United, Bogle!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Nasty one for Mykolenko

[HCZ_Reborn]

Maguire equalises for United

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Looked like his foot twisted back so it was on his tippy toes. He's back on somehow.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Pickford saves from Diaz.

[Letters]

Everton 1-0 Liverpool, Calvert-Lewin!! Branthwaite?! I am not sure

Just seen Neverton's goal :haha:

What a hilarious mess. Hard to see Everton winning this though, the bit I've seen has been all Liverpool.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sheffield United back in front, Brereton-Diaz

Double Lolz

[HCZ_Reborn]

Just seen Neverton's goal :haha:

What a hilarious mess. Hard to see Everton winning this though, the bit I've seen has been all Liverpool.

I think Liverpool had at least two chances to clear the ball

[HCZ_Reborn]

Hwang equalises for Wolves against Bournemouth

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Ten Hag is never going to be in post when we play them.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Mateta scores for Palace, 1-0 up against Newcastle

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Glasner is doing well.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Hwang equalises for Wolves against Bournemouth

VAR scrubbed this

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Robertson. :lol:

[Letters]

2-0 NEVERTON!!! :haha:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fernandes scores a pel to bring United level

[Marc Overmars]

Klopp. :rose:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-2 Fernandes pelanty.

Go on Ten Hag!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-0 Calvert-Lewin!!!!

[Letters]

Could have been 3. Liverpool look so shaky at the back on the rare occasions Everton do break.

[Letters]

Liverpool smack the post!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Everton have been doing well denying Liverpool long range shots.

Usually their avenue back in to games.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Man Utd 3-2 Sheffield United, Fernandes again!

[Marc Overmars]

Crazy how often he saves them.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

4-2 Hojlund.

Ten Hag still stays on somehow. :bow:

Palace 2-0 Newcastle, Mateta!

[Letters]

Man Utd 3-2 Sheffield United, Fernandes again!

Boo.

Ten Hag. Always doing the absolute bare minimum to stay in a job.

[Letters]

Everton thump it in to Row Z

Which was odd, given it was their free kick on the edge of the box :doh:

[Letters]

Save for the cameras by the Everton 'keeper!

[Letters]

Liverpool :wave:

Now THIS, HCZ, this is a collapse!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Everton 2-0 Liverpool, FT!!!!

[Mac76]

'kin excellent result - u gotta love local derbies :)

Good thing we don't have one coming up - oh.... :(

[Marc Overmars]

Great result. Hoping the same doesn’t happen to us in our derby this weekend. :sick:

Don’t have much hope over a Brighton result tomorrow but let’s see.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Brighton: Steele; Veltman, Van Hecke, Dunk, Barco; Gross, Baleba; Lallana, Moder, Joao Pedro; Welbeck.
Subs: Verbruggen, Julio, Webster, Enciso, Adingra, Fati, Buonanotte , Offiah, O'Mah.

Manchester City: Ederson; Walker, Akanji, Ake, Gvardiol; Rodri, Kovacic; Bernado Silva, De Bruyne, Foden; Alvarez.
Subs: Ortega, Dias, Stones, Grealish, Doku, Gomez, Nunes, Bobb, Lewis.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Agent Welbz. :pray:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-1 De Bruyne, what a header. RVP like.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Foden slips and they give a foul for it. 0-2 from it also.

[Niall_Quinn]

The gypos got their ref again. The entirely believable and expected corruption that has occurred this season, right out in the open. And Neville and Carragher and the whole rat pack are right onboard. Smithy says, soft free kick that one, as the unspeakable Foden dives again. Let's gloss over it. 2-0 instead of 1-0, game over and 3 points "won". Yeah, sure, they are the better team tonight, but why the extra assistance? Would love to see the cashflow chains.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-3 Foden.

Crazy from Brighton.

[Niall_Quinn]

Okay, so it was never going to be Brighton. Transparent cheating aside, the Romanies were always going to crush them.

[Marc Overmars]

*Sigh*

On to the next one then.

[Niall_Quinn]

In some ways it was a bad idea to lose to Villa. We had these skanky bitches in our pocket and we let them out to spread what they spread.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Brighton are on the beach, which in their case could be literal.

[Mac76]

:(

[Mac76]

Brighton are on the beach, which in their case could be literal.

:lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-4 Alvarez.

[Letters]

In some ways it was a bad idea to lose to Villa. We had these skanky bitches in our pocket and we let them out to spread what they spread.

We’ve won every game apart from an away draw at City and then that Villa loss.
I mean, obviously the latter was disappointing but Villa are not some cloggers and you can’t win every game.
The fact we’ve lost one game and in doing so City basically became hot favourites tells you a lot more about City than us. You have to be perfect to get the better of them. I can’t really fault our efforts

[HCZ_Reborn]

We’ve won every game apart from an away draw at City and then that Villa loss.
I mean, obviously the latter was disappointing but Villa are not some cloggers and you can’t win every game.
The fact we’ve lost one game and in doing so City basically became hot favourites tells you a lot more about City than us. You have to be perfect to get the better of them. I can’t really fault our efforts

If that transpires as our last dropped points of the season you may have an argument, unless I just think it’s an excuse.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

And 0-4 FT. That was awful.

[Mac76]

If Spuds don't stop them no-one will

The good news is Spuds will really try to win that game to make the CL

[Letters]

If that transpires as our last dropped points of the season you may have an argument, unless I just think it’s an excuse.

So you think the only acceptable outcome is Arsenal win every single league game this calendar year but two - one slip and one pretty creditable away win against our title rivals. Anything else and you don't regard that as good enough? :blink:
Wow.
We were never favourites in this race. Never. We always knew we had the harder run in. My one hope is Spurs getting a result against them, they have previous. But in the context of a title run in I can see City mowing them down.

[HCZ_Reborn]

So you think the only acceptable outcome is Arsenal win every single league game this calendar year but two - one slip and one pretty creditable away win against our title rivals. Anything else and you don't regard that as good enough? :blink:
Wow.
We were never favourites in this race. Never. We always knew we had the harder run in. My one hope is Spurs getting a result against them, they have previous. But in the context of a title run in I can see City mowing them down.

I’ve been pretty consistent in saying my basis for whether Arsenal should continue under Arteta is whether we can challenge for things. If we win every game from now until the end of the season (and are you really saying that’s an unreasonable expectation) and still don’t win the league we have accrued 89 points and won 28 games in a season which is more than we’ve done in a single season so I can say we are at least doing our part to win the title (as I said to you the other week, a team winning the title with less than 85 points has happened twice in the last twenty years)

Plus why shouldn’t we expect to win games like away at Spurs and away at United?

No point bitching about City if we don’t do our part.

[Niall_Quinn]

So you think the only acceptable outcome is Arsenal win every single league game this calendar year but two - one slip and one pretty creditable away win against our title rivals. Anything else and you don't regard that as good enough? :blink:
Wow.
We were never favourites in this race. Never. We always knew we had the harder run in. My one hope is Spurs getting a result against them, they have previous. But in the context of a title run in I can see City mowing them down.

It was in our hands, so we were favourites at one point. And then we weren't. Some people claimed we weren't favourites even when it was in our hands. Why would that be? Given, as you point out, we've won so many games, and also scored the most goals and have an almost fully fit squad, why would a club that had to rely on us dropping points be the favourite? Couldn't they drop points too? And haven't they? To us, in fact.

Anyone saying we weren't favourites when we were in command is basically admitting to the mentality problem I have talked about many times. When you have a markedly superior record against your main two rivals, yet people still say your rivals will beat you in the end, what is really being said? You can boil it down to City knowing what it takes to win while we don't. Or you can go on about more difficult run-ins and all that stuff, but it's invalid because we already beat the closest two rivals so who does that leave in the run-in that's more difficult?

If anything, Liverpool's recent performances have shown it's not the opponent that matters most, it's your own effort, mentality and application. That's why people thought all along the gypos would win it, because they know they'll nail all of those required attributes. And they doubt we will, because we've provided plenty of evidence in the past to support that view.

We can fall back on saying, good season lads, almost won it but... add excuses accordingly. In the end though, not good enough. That's not even a criticism, it's just a statement of fact.

But I do think Arteta is making major gains in repairing the damage that was done over many years. For instance, anyone talking about a top four trophy today would be laughed out of the room. And righly so. The top four trophy was the epitome of a loser mentality, and I think it has almost been dispelled at this point. That's definitely progress. It has taken so long because it was so pernicious and such a destructive way of approaching competitive sport at the top level.

Next step will be learning how to disrespect the gypos and treat them like a bitch, which we used to do to Utd even before we got on the pitch. No more of this grovelling and blind acceptance, the gypos aren't all that. They couldn't even beat Madrid. So much for the best club in the best league in the world.

[Letters]

I’ve been pretty consistent in saying my basis for whether Arsenal should continue under Arteta is whether we can challenge for things.
You said you wanted us to be in with a chance by May. If we lose tomorrow then obviously it's pretty unlikely we'll win the title. Although City also have to go to Spurs who have a good record against City. But we are at worst very close to achieving your requirement,


If we win every game from now until the end of the season (and are you really saying that’s an unreasonable expectation)
It's a reasonable ambition but yes it's an unreasonable expectation.
The latter makes you sound like the irritated customer in a fancy restaurant again.


and still don’t win the league we have accrued 89 points and won 28 games in a season which is more than we’ve done in a single season so I can say we are at least doing our part to win the title (as I said to you the other week, a team winning the title with less than 85 points has happened twice in the last twenty years)
You did say that and I did look in to that a bit. In a fair number of seasons there's been one outstanding side who blew everyone away, a tight 3 horse title race hasn't happened for a while. A few years ago City won it with 86 points but the second team, Utd, only got 74. Point being you could argue you only really needed 75 to win it. 89 would be an outstanding outcome for us, but given the games we have left to play and our run this calendar year to get us in contention, I think over-criticism of a lower final points tally would be unwarranted.


Plus why shouldn’t we expect to win games like away at Spurs and away at United?
No point bitching about City if we don’t do our part.
We have done our part.

The reason it's an unreasonable expectation is we have 2 tough fixtures coming up. Utd have been pretty patchy this season but they'll raise it against us. Spurs is a local derby - even at our best under Wenger when Spurs were a very mid-table side we never lost there but draws were pretty common.
Liverpool lost away at Spurs (thanks in part to that VAR farce, but that was early enough they could still have won it), and they drew away at Man Utd
City beat Utd home and away, but they drew at home to Spurs.
Why would you expect us to win both of those games? They're certainly games we could win, but "expect"?

[Letters]

Damn and blast. I wrote most of a reply to this and then my browser restarted :doh:
Anyway...


It was in our hands, so we were favourites at one point. And then we weren't. Some people claimed we weren't favourites even when it was in our hands. Why would that be?
It being in your hands doesn't necessarily make you favourites. Anfield '89 was in our hands and of course we prevailed but we certainly weren't favourites.
Obviously a factor is your remaining fixtures and the gap you have over the rest. That's why at no point were we considered favourites because our run in was objectively more difficult than the other two and we've never had any significant gap over them.
I don't see how it's a mentality issue and the difficulty of the run in is not irrelevant. Two of your last 4 games being Spurs and Utd away is objectively more difficult than, say, those fixtures being Sheffield Utd and Luton at home. Obviously we are capable of winning all our remaining fixtures, but those two away games are not the nailed on certainties that the alternatives should be.


If anything, Liverpool's recent performances have shown it's not the opponent that matters most, it's your own effort, mentality and application. That's why people thought all along the gypos would win it, because they know they'll nail all of those required attributes. And they doubt we will, because we've provided plenty of evidence in the past to support that view.
There's something in that, but I can't really fault our efforts so far.


We can fall back on saying, good season lads, almost won it but... add excuses accordingly. In the end though, not good enough. That's not even a criticism, it's just a statement of fact.
Not good enough to win the league. It's an exercise for the reader to determine whether they think it's good enough overall.
For me there's been pretty clear progression this year. We've stood up in the big games this season. We've been near perfect in the the run in, just one slip and that wasn't to some cloggers who we should be sweeping aside.


But I do think Arteta is making major gains in repairing the damage that was done over many years. For instance, anyone talking about a top four trophy today would be laughed out of the room. And righly so. The top four trophy was the epitome of a loser mentality, and I think it has almost been dispelled at this point. That's definitely progress. It has taken so long because it was so pernicious and such a destructive way of approaching competitive sport at the top level.

Next step will be learning how to disrespect the gypos and treat them like a bitch, which we used to do to Utd even before we got on the pitch. No more of this grovelling and blind acceptance, the gypos aren't all that. They couldn't even beat Madrid. So much for the best club in the best league in the world.

Agree with most of this. I mean, City only lost to Real on pens, they weren't swept aside by them. But we've stood up to City this season. Maybe we showed them a bit too much respect at their place, but after previous experiences I can understand that. They haven't lost a league home game all season so a draw was a creditable result, and we stopped them scoring which is more than anyone else has done for about 3 years. Next step is to go there and beat them.

If we fall short again this year then so be it. We sign a proper striker in the summer and build on the progress we've made. At times HCZ seems to be saying we should sack Arteta, rip it all up and start again. I think that would be a step backwards.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You said you wanted us to be in with a chance by May. If we lose tomorrow then obviously it's pretty unlikely we'll win the title. Although City also have to go to Spurs who have a good record against City. But we are at worst very close to achieving your requirement,


It's a reasonable ambition but yes it's an unreasonable expectation.
The latter makes you sound like the irritated customer in a fancy restaurant again.


You did say that and I did look in to that a bit. In a fair number of seasons there's been one outstanding side who blew everyone away, a tight 3 horse title race hasn't happened for a while. A few years ago City won it with 86 points but the second team, Utd, only got 74. Point being you could argue you only really needed 75 to win it. 89 would be an outstanding outcome for us, but given the games we have left to play and our run this calendar year to get us in contention, I think over-criticism of a lower final points tally would be unwarranted.


We have done our part.

The reason it's an unreasonable expectation is we have 2 tough fixtures coming up. Utd have been pretty patchy this season but they'll raise it against us. Spurs is a local derby - even at our best under Wenger when Spurs were a very mid-table side we never lost there but draws were pretty common.
Liverpool lost away at Spurs (thanks in part to that VAR farce, but that was early enough they could still have won it), and they drew away at Man Utd
City beat Utd home and away, but they drew at home to Spurs.
Why would you expect us to win both of those games? They're certainly games we could win, but "expect"?

Yes expect

That’s what happens when you want to compete for the top prizes

[HCZ_Reborn]

Damn and blast. I wrote most of a reply to this and then my browser restarted :doh:
Anyway...


It being in your hands doesn't necessarily make you favourites. Anfield '89 was in our hands and of course we prevailed but we certainly weren't favourites.
Obviously a factor is your remaining fixtures and the gap you have over the rest. That's why at no point were we considered favourites because our run in was objectively more difficult than the other two and we've never had any significant gap over them.
I don't see how it's a mentality issue and the difficulty of the run in is not irrelevant. Two of your last 4 games being Spurs and Utd away is objectively more difficult than, say, those fixtures being Sheffield Utd and Luton at home. Obviously we are capable of winning all our remaining fixtures, but those two away games are not the nailed on certainties that the alternatives should be.


There's something in that, but I can't really fault our efforts so far.


Not good enough to win the league. It's an exercise for the reader to determine whether they think it's good enough overall.
For me there's been pretty clear progression this year. We've stood up in the big games this season. We've been near perfect in the the run in, just one slip and that wasn't to some cloggers who we should be sweeping aside.



Agree with most of this. I mean, City only lost to Real on pens, they weren't swept aside by them. But we've stood up to City this season. Maybe we showed them a bit too much respect at their place, but after previous experiences I can understand that. They haven't lost a league home game all season so a draw was a creditable result, and we stopped them scoring which is more than anyone else has done for about 3 years. Next step is to go there and beat them.

If we fall short again this year then so be it. We sign a proper striker in the summer and build on the progress we've made. At times HCZ seems to be saying we should sack Arteta, rip it all up and start again. I think that would be a step backwards.

Why does sacking Arteta involve ripping it all up and starting again?

[Mac76]

Yes expect

That’s what happens when you want to compete for the top prizes

I would expect us to beat Fulham at home (which we failed to do thanks to Zin) but not Man U and Spuds away

[HCZ_Reborn]

I would expect us to beat Fulham at home (which we failed to do thanks to Zin) but not Man U and Spuds away

If you’re trying to win the league and you’re at the business end, you would expect to win every game apart from city and Liverpool away

[Letters]

If you’re trying to win the league and you’re at the business end, you would expect to win every game apart from city and Liverpool away

When is the last time we beat Spurs and Utd away in the same season?
I don’t know the answer to that, but it must be a while. Certainly can’t have happened often over the last 20 years. So “expecting” us to do that, even in the context of a title challenge, seems a bit weird

[Letters]

Why does sacking Arteta involve ripping it all up and starting again?

Maybe overstating things a little but this is very much Arteta’s team now. Sacking him would surely be a disruptive thing. It’s possible it could push us on but we’ve clearly made progress this season, therefore I feel Arteta should stay. If that progress doesn’t continue next year then ok, we need to consider this more seriously, but not yet in my view.

I would remind you that you were sceptical early season of us being able to challenge at all. And when we had a wobble I think you were one of the people worrying whether we could stay top 4. We’ve exceeded or at least met most people’s expectations this season. Sacking the manager in that context seems like a pretty big overreaction

[Mac76]

When is the last time we beat Spurs and Utd away in the same season?
I don’t know the answer to that, but it must be a while. Certainly can’t have happened often over the last 20 years. So “expecting” us to do that, even in the context of a title challenge, seems a bit weird

Agreed, I was saying to someone the other day that before Citeh came along, even that Villa result wouldn't have been seen as such a disaster, it's all down to what teams are faced with when competing with Citeh, but to say we should expect to win two very tricky and baggage-laden away games is daft

[HCZ_Reborn]

Maybe overstating things a little but this is very much Arteta’s team now. Sacking him would surely be a disruptive thing. It’s possible it could push us on but we’ve clearly made progress this season, therefore I feel Arteta should stay. If that progress doesn’t continue next year then ok, we need to consider this more seriously, but not yet in my view.

I would remind you that you were sceptical early season of us being able to challenge at all. And when we had a wobble I think you were one of the people worrying whether we could stay top 4. We’ve exceeded or at least met most people’s expectations this season. Sacking the manager in that context seems like a pretty big overreaction

I’m of the opinion that if this so-called process is worth seeing through it will survive a managerial change or should I say more specifically a change of coach. Never forget that is what Arteta was appointed as head coach, in a power grab he made himself manager.
In my view the head coach is a transient figure or should be, and if success is not forthcoming should be moved on. Frankly for that reason I’m not keen on keeping Arteta on whatever happens between now and May, I think he has too much power at the club and we learnt the folly of that with Wenger.

But either way, for Arteta to meet my minimum expectations we have to win tomorrow simple as that. That was the situation we put ourselves in by losing to Villa unnecessarily

[Letters]

Just checked the three title winning years under Wenger. Didn't win at WHL in any of them. And we were a much better side relative to them than we are now.
1998 they finished 14th ( :lol: ), 2002 they finished 9th, 14th again in 2004. Now they're on the verge of Top 4 although look likely to miss out with their run in.

[Letters]

But either way, for Arteta to meet my minimum expectations we have to win tomorrow simple as that. That was the situation we put ourselves in by losing to Villa unnecessarily
Unnecessarily :lol:

Dude, this is football. It's a competitive sport. You know the other team are trying to win too, right? Sometimes you're just not going to win a game. We really weren't that bad against Villa. Arteta clearly set us up to blitz them early and win it by half time. We had our chances but it didn't quite happen. There are very fine lines in football. Second half we were poor, but Villa aren't some cloggers we should be thumping. After the top 3 they're probably next best.

Your "minimum expectations" are virtual perfection. And, again. Early season you were saying we wouldn't be in a title race. The first wobble we had I'm pretty sure you were saying Top 4 wasn't assured. You massively overreact to the slightest setback. I arguably underreact, but my main thing this year is I've seen progress. That is surely not in dispute. We've passed plenty of tests this season which we failed last year. If that progress isn't enough to win the title then I can live with that, but changing manager while we are heading in the right direction under them is a crazy thing to do.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Unnecessarily :lol:

Dude, this is football. It's a competitive sport. You know the other team are trying to win too, right? Sometimes you're just not going to win a game. We really weren't that bad against Villa. Arteta clearly set us up to blitz them early and win it by half time. We had our chances but it didn't quite happen. There are very fine lines in football. Second half we were poor, but Villa aren't some cloggers we should be thumping. After the top 3 they're probably next best.

Your "minimum expectations" are virtual perfection. And, again. Early season you were saying we wouldn't be in a title race. The first wobble we had I'm pretty sure you were saying Top 4 wasn't assured. You massively overreact to the slightest setback. I arguably underreact, but my main thing this year is I've seen progress. That is surely not in dispute. We've passed plenty of tests this season which we failed last year. If that progress isn't enough to win the title then I can live with that, but changing manager while we are heading in the right direction under them is a crazy thing to do.

No not virtual perfection at all. They were the expectation that we would be still in the title race or in the champions league by 1st May.

It was unnecessary because it was self inflicted with a poorly chosen line up, I choose my words carefully.


As I’ve said only twice in the last twenty years has a team won the title with less than 85 points. We got 84 last season, so I don’t believe this whole Man City cheat code applies to us.

We didn’t deserve the title last season because of the collapse in the last ten games. Minus the Villa game our form in 2024 has been near on title winning form but it’s not unreasonable to expect that we keep it going till the end of the season.

We need to do our part, to get the amount of points a team would on average get if it wins the title…if that’s not enough to beat City so be it but it’s a reasonable expectation of progress

[Letters]

No not virtual perfection at all.
You lost your shit after the first PL loss of 2024, prior to which we'd won every game but 1 - the one being a creditable result away at City.


They were the expectation that we would be still in the title race or in the champions league by 1st May.
Well, we certainly will be mathematically although if we lose tomorrow and City win then it will be hard to make a case for us.


It was unnecessary because it was self inflicted with a poorly chosen line up, I choose my words carefully.
In your opinion. But you've criticised Arteta for line ups in plenty of games we've won this year. What I'm mostly looking for is progression. I've seen that this year. Had we properly collapsed again then I'd probably be with you, but we really haven't. Dropping points tomorrow would be disappointing but "expecting" a win at a ground we rarely win at is unreasonable.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You lost your shit after the first PL loss of 2024, prior to which we'd won every game but 1 - the one being a creditable result away at City.


Well, we certainly will be mathematically although if we lose tomorrow and City win then it will be hard to make a case for us.


In your opinion. But you've criticised Arteta for line ups in plenty of games we've won this year. What I'm mostly looking for is progression. I've seen that this year. Had we properly collapsed again then I'd probably be with you, but we really haven't. Dropping points tomorrow would be disappointing but "expecting" a win at a ground we rarely win at is unreasonable.

What I’m expecting is for us to make City have to win every single one of their remaining games. We didn’t do that last season, and if we don’t do it this season I cannot see how that’s progress.


Yes we’ve done well in 2024 but that’s after a lot of poor results in the first half of the season. But let’s point out a few things…in 97/98 we were unbeaten from December 1997 until when we secured the title against Everton, and we then lost the next two dead rubber games. 2001/2002 we won 12 games in a row and again were unbeaten from just before Xmas.

These are the standards set by title winning teams of over 20 years so don’t give me this shit that I’m expecting too much. It’s unfortunate that Spurs and United are the last two away games of the season but even though it’s not in our hands there is no excuse not to win both games because we are better than both teams and when it comes to the crunch there are no excuses.

No fan of NQ but I think he has a point when he talks about the fanbase being infected with mediocrity. His Wenger hatred means that most of what he says is bollocks. Liverpool have dropped away, it’s remarkable that they were leading for as long as they were…testament to what a great manager Klopp is that a team with so much average led the way for so long

[Letters]

What I’m expecting is for us to make City have to win every single one of their remaining games. We didn’t do that last season, and if we don’t do it this season I cannot see how that’s progress.
So we either do push them to the last day or we don't, and that's your only measurement of progress?
That's such a weird and binary way of looking at things. You're not even comparing like for like. Last year we had an outstanding run up till the World Cup which in many people's minds made us favourites. I personally never quite saw it that way, it was still pretty early in the season, but we were certainly well clear at the time. We then had one of our wobbles - including a loss to City - but then went on a good run and we were still in charge of the title race at the start of April. We were 8 points clear of City although they had a game in hand.

We then went on a pretty disastrous run of 3 points in 12, including losing the away game at City. And that put us a point behind them with 5 games to go and they had a game in hand. Then went on to lose 2 of the last 3 games - and they were Brighton at home and Forest away, games I do think it's more reasonable to expect us to win.
It wasn't just that we didn't take them to the last day, we went on an awful run which took us from a commanding position to underdogs, and then we downed tools and just handed it to them.

That was pretty poor, but I guess given a title challenge was so unexpected I could forgive them somewhat, as disappointing as it was. But we needed to show progress this year. And we clearly have. It's been a completely different title race. One, which I'll remind you again, you expressed scepticism early season we'd even be in. So this level of expectation you now have is a little baffling. There has been 3 contenders and I don't think at any point anyone has really been far enough ahead that you could install them as clear favourites. But we've stood our ground. And we've stood up in the big games. 4 points from Liverpool, 4 points from City. This time last season we'd collapsed to the point that City were ahead with a game in hand. This year we're ahead - City still have a game in hand and that makes them favourites but there's been no collapse from us this year. We've pushed them as hard as we reasonably could. There's been one slip this calendar year, which given we're close to May is hardly something to lose our shit about. I don't even agree there were a "lot" of poor results before the turn of the 2023. The big wobble we had was the West Ham at home and Fulham away double header. We then followed it up with losing to Liverpool in the Cup although actually we were good in that game. It was wastefulness up front which cost us in that one - that has been an emerging theme this season, although we have scored more than anyone else so that's a bit of a conundrum.


These are the standards set by title winning teams of over 20 years so don’t give me this shit that I’m expecting too much.
You're cherry picking. There are plenty of other seasons where the title winning side didn't go on a run like that.
I picked an arbitrary season - before City started going on these mental runs, and I didn't count Leicester which was a bit of a weird season all round. The season after that Chelsea won it. They admittedly had a long winning run in the first half of the season but that only put them 6 points clear. After that they dropped more than enough points for another team to overhaul them, but there wasn't "a City" around to punish them.
[EDIT: I checked 2014-15 too. Chelsea champions that year too. Never won more than 4 in a row]


It’s unfortunate that Spurs and United are the last two away games of the season but even though it’s not in our hands there is no excuse not to win both games because we are better than both teams and when it comes to the crunch there are no excuses.
None of the title winning sides you're ejaculating over won at Spurs. And this Spurs side are significantly better than the one which the best Wenger side failed to beat. I'm not saying we can't win tomorrow, but "expecting" us to is you being the annoyed customer in a fine dining restaurant. You know that Spurs will be trying to win too, right? And they're not actually a bad side this year. Beatable, certainly, but they're not going to want to lose a NLD which could push us towards a title. They will be very up for it tomorrow.


No fan of NQ but I think he has a point when he talks about the fanbase being infected with mediocrity.
There's a massive gap between mediocrity and your expectation of perfection.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’m not expecting perfection, I’m expecting the number of points that sides who have won the title have on average won

Anyway 2005 and 2006 - Chelsea won at Spurs, 2007 United won at Spurs, City won at Spurs when they won the title in 2012, 2014, 2018 and 2019 and Leicester won at Spurs when they won the title in 2016

The Arsenal winning title sides - won at United in 98 and 2002, won at Liverpool in 2002 and 2004 title wins, and Chelsea in 1998 and 2004 title wins.


But none of this is relevant. We put ourselves in the situation where we have to win at Spurs and United by our failure to win easier fixtures earlier on in the season. It is what it is, if we can’t challenge right to the end then there’s absolutely nothing substantive to your claim that we’ve built on last season and haven’t just hit the ceiling.

I’m responding to your claim that because of City steamroller we are left with impossible task, but if we aren’t getting the points that would usually win us the title that claim is completely empty

[Letters]

I’m not expecting perfection
:blink:

Literally earlier in this thread you said we should be expecting to win all 4 games. Games which include 2 tricky away games. Games we haven't won in title winning seasons.


I’m expecting the number of points that sides who have won the title have on average won
That average is a bit skewed by a few exceptional seasons of late. The average over the last 7 seasons is 94 points, thanks to a City side who are surely the best in PL history and Klopp taking Liverpool to a pretty ridiculous level - and he only got the better of them once. I'm not convinced that's the new normal. We're likely to get a points total which would have seen us there or thereabouts in most seasons before that.

I'm confused about your level of expectation and what it's based on. Early season you were complaining about how rubbish we were - even though we were winning the games - and predicting doom. After the Fulham game - the first points we dropped - you said that:

"I think people here will have to concede that Rice shouldn’t be playing for us"
https://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=5264
#agedlikemilk

Then after the West Ham game you said:


[if we don't bring in a target man in January] I don’t think it’s just the title that won’t happen (I think we can kiss goodbye to that now, that’s between Liverpool and Man City) but top four as well
https://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=5325

When I picked you up on over-reacting to a bad result and said we'd finish top 3 you were bigging up Spurs and Villa - who never seemed credible contenders to me.

And then after the recent Villa game you declared it a "collapse". The first game we'd lost in the calendar year! :lol:
Your basis for that was it was sandwiched between the two Bayern games - a team you have declared one we should have beaten despite tipping them for the CL at the start of the season.

You're all over the shop, dude, and you massively overreact to every setback. No that there's anything to over-react to right now, we picked ourselves up after the Villa loss and CL exit and have continued to win.


We put ourselves in the situation where we have to win at Spurs and United by our failure to win easier fixtures earlier on in the season.
That's one way of looking at it. An alternative way of doing so is we've put ourselves in the situation where with 4 games to go we could win the title despite City only dropping 6 points this calendar year.


It is what it is, if we can’t challenge right to the end then there’s absolutely nothing substantive to your claim that we’ve built on last season and haven’t just hit the ceiling.
I guess that's true if you ignore all the things I mentioned in some detail which demonstrate progress. To summarise:

Last year we blew a pretty substantial lead and with 4 games to go we were all but out of it.
This year we have never had any cushion but we've stuck with a City side who are surely the best and most consistent in PL history.
Last year we lost the 6 pointers, this year we've stood up in them.
And first year back in the CL and we got through to the quarter finals for the first time in 14 years.

We've passed a load of tests we failed last year.
The difference is pretty clear.

If we lose tomorrow then we'll be all but out of the title race but I won't be losing my shit about that. You will, I imagine.
We always knew that the harder run in was a factor against us. We were never favourites because of that. The glimmer of hope would be City also have to go to Spurs where they have a poor record, but that would be clutching at straws.


I’m responding to your claim that because of City steamroller we are left with impossible task, but if we aren’t getting the points that would usually win us the title that claim is completely empty
Not impossible, but the City juggernaut have only been stopped once and that was by a team who did pretty much achieve the perfection you claim not to expect but your reaction to every setback suggests otherwise.

Overall, I can't really fault their efforts this season however things end up. We could exceed last year's points total and goals scored. We'll definitely have a much better defence and therefore goal difference. I feel I've seen progress from last year and I've evidenced that. If you don't feel that, or don't feel it's enough given the money spent then OK, I guess we agree to disagree.

[Marc Overmars]

We’re significantly better than United and Spurs so I guess there should be an element of expectation to win but these are grounds we’ve rarely won at throughout PL history, regardless of form and what state we’ve been in. Don’t recall ever winning at both in the same season but we simply have to this year to have any chance of the title.

[Letters]

We’re significantly better than United and Spurs so I guess there should be an element of expectation to win but these are grounds we’ve rarely won at throughout PL history, regardless of form and what state we’ve been in. Don’t recall ever winning at both in the same season but we simply have to this year to have any chance of the title.

Just watching the Utd highlights.
Us if we don’t win there :lol:, they are a hilarious mess.
More worried about today.

[HCZ_Reborn]

:blink:

Literally earlier in this thread you said we should be expecting to win all 4 games. Games which include 2 tricky away games. Games we haven't won in title winning seasons.


That average is a bit skewed by a few exceptional seasons of late. The average over the last 7 seasons is 94 points, thanks to a City side who are surely the best in PL history and Klopp taking Liverpool to a pretty ridiculous level - and he only got the better of them once. I'm not convinced that's the new normal. We're likely to get a points total which would have seen us there or thereabouts in most seasons before that.

I'm confused about your level of expectation and what it's based on. Early season you were complaining about how rubbish we were - even though we were winning the games - and predicting doom. After the Fulham game - the first points we dropped - you said that:

"I think people here will have to concede that Rice shouldn’t be playing for us"
https://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=5264
#agedlikemilk

Then after the West Ham game you said:


https://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=5325

When I picked you up on over-reacting to a bad result and said we'd finish top 3 you were bigging up Spurs and Villa - who never seemed credible contenders to me.

And then after the recent Villa game you declared it a "collapse". The first game we'd lost in the calendar year! :lol:
Your basis for that was it was sandwiched between the two Bayern games - a team you have declared one we should have beaten despite tipping them for the CL at the start of the season.

You're all over the shop, dude, and you massively overreact to every setback. No that there's anything to over-react to right now, we picked ourselves up after the Villa loss and CL exit and have continued to win.


That's one way of looking at it. An alternative way of doing so is we've put ourselves in the situation where with 4 games to go we could win the title despite City only dropping 6 points this calendar year.


I guess that's true if you ignore all the things I mentioned in some detail which demonstrate progress. To summarise:

Last year we blew a pretty substantial lead and with 4 games to go we were all but out of it.
This year we have never had any cushion but we've stuck with a City side who are surely the best and most consistent in PL history.
Last year we lost the 6 pointers, this year we've stood up in them.
And first year back in the CL and we got through to the quarter finals for the first time in 14 years.

We've passed a load of tests we failed last year.
The difference is pretty clear.

If we lose tomorrow then we'll be all but out of the title race but I won't be losing my shit about that. You will, I imagine.
We always knew that the harder run in was a factor against us. We were never favourites because of that. The glimmer of hope would be City also have to go to Spurs where they have a poor record, but that would be clutching at straws.


Not impossible, but the City juggernaut have only been stopped once and that was by a team who did pretty much achieve the perfection you claim not to expect but your reaction to every setback suggests otherwise.

Overall, I can't really fault their efforts this season however things end up. We could exceed last year's points total and goals scored. We'll definitely have a much better defence and therefore goal difference. I feel I've seen progress from last year and I've evidenced that. If you don't feel that, or don't feel it's enough given the money spent then OK, I guess we agree to disagree.

Expectation is based on the money we’ve spent I’ve consistently stated this

The concern of struggling was based on the first few games of the season which were diabolical, by your own admission you weren’t watching those games to see how atrocious we were.

The simple point I’ve been making over and over again is that if we can’t get the average points total that teams have won over the past twenty years to win the league than we have nothing to say about City…nothing.

Spurs and United are not easy fixtures, the expectation that we should win them is based on the position we are in now where we have to win them…played at different times of the season a draw might have been acceptable in one of those games.

Success or failure is determined by fine margins, not just in football but in all sport. If we can’t push city right to the end now when they haven’t particularly had their best season what makes you think we can do it next season.


It was a collapse. We lost control of the title race and went out of the champions league. It’s weird to look at it in any other way.

[Mac76]

Just watching the Utd highlights.
Us if we don’t win there :lol:, they are a hilarious mess.
More worried about today.

Yes I must admit, while I still wouldn't use the word 'expect' I probably would use the word 'should' in terms of our winning, although even then it's a game Utd will be up for and want to show off in, probably one of the few times they'll put in a decent shift

Plus they're bound to get a dodgy pel

[Letters]

Expectation is based on the money we’ve spent I’ve consistently stated this
The way we’ve spent money certainly raises expectation, as did last season. Last year’s title challenge was unexpected, this year we do expect more. I guess where we differ is I believe we’ve met our expectations and you don’t. But your metric seems to be “still in with a chance on the last day” which is very specific. Especially as you previously set the 1st May so it feels like a bit of a goalpost shift. There are plenty of indications of the progress we’ve made this season.


The simple point I’ve been making over and over again is that if we can’t get the average points total that teams have won over the past twenty years to win the league than we have nothing to say about City…nothing.
Which I dealt with in my previous post. That average is skewed by the last 7 years where City have been at an insane level. And Klopp raised Liverpool to a high enough level to push them. And there were a couple of other exceptional seasons too. I don’t accept that’s the new normal.


Success or failure is determined by fine margins, not just in football but in all sport. If we can’t push city right to the end now when they haven’t particularly had their best season what makes you think we can do it next season.
I keep hearing that City have been below par. They’ve had a few injuries. And yet they’re looking like they could do the double again. And they were a penalty shootout away from being back in the CL semi-finals. If that’s them being not at their best then yes, it is difficult to see how we can ever beat them. Liverpool only did it once and that was when they went completely mental and basically achieved the level of perfection you claim not to expect but your words tell a different story.



It was a collapse. We lost control of the title race and went out of the champions league. It’s weird to look at it in any other way.
:lol: That’s a ridiculous definition of a collapse and you have a very glass half empty view.
We were never in control of the title race. At no point did anyone make us favourites because of our harder run in. It was very briefly in our hands but as I outlined to NQ, that doesn’t make you favourites. We lost one game - having won every single league game in 2024 bar City away. And we went out of the CL to a side you predicted would win the thing. It was a very narrow defeat over two legs too. By your definition we collapse every year, as does every team unless they win the treble. And we picked ourselves up and kept winning. To compare that to last season where we got 3 points from 12 to go from being in control of the title race to as good as out of it is ludicrous.

There’s been clear progress this year. It may not be enough to win the title in which case we try and strengthen further and go again.

[HCZ_Reborn]

By definition if you are top of the table you are in control of the title

Because if you win your games it doesn’t matter what anyone else does

It’s not shifting goalposts at all, it’s saying if we are still in contention in May, there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be fighting to the last game of the season, if we are still in contention after today those minimum expectations have just about been met.


I’m not really seeing your argument about the average point accumulation over the last seven years. If we can’t even get the point total that would win us the title on average over the past twenty years then there is simply no argument that City’s spending has affected us.

It’s not really complicated, if we get say 87 points we can maybe argue that we’ve done enough but just been undone by the city machine but that will require a minimum of 4 points against spurs and United, and that we need that again reflects on the points we threw away earlier in the season.

I don’t want Arteta here full stop whatever happens. But that’s completely different from my objective appraisal that if we are still in the title race on May 1st…he’s done just about enough.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Clear progress?

We need to get seven points from the last four games just to match what we did last season

We have got more clean sheets and possibly may get more goals


But from my point of view, if we win all our games and still don’t win the title that’s slight very slight progress


And arguably for 200 million spent last summer that’s not great at all.

[Letters]

By definition if you are top of the table you are in control of the title
Well, sure. It was briefly in our hands. But that doesn't make us favourites. We were never favourites. I've explained why.


It’s not shifting goalposts at all, it’s saying if we are still in contention in May, there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be fighting to the last game of the season, if we are still in contention after today those minimum expectations have just about been met.
Cool. So we good then?


I’m not really seeing your argument about the average point accumulation over the last seven years. If we can’t even get the point total that would win us the title on average over the past twenty years then there is simply no argument that City’s spending has affected us.
My point is the average over the last 20 years has been skewed upwards by the last 7 when City's spending pushed them to a level I don't think we've ever seen before in the PL. That's why it's affected us.
The average over the last 7 years is 94 points. That's ridiculous and I don't accept that's the "new normal". It's an unusual period because of City's spending - and to an extent the level Klopp took Liverpool to them which pushed City to get high points totals. The 13 years before that the average was just under 88 points. A total we weren't a million miles away from last season - despite our wobbles - and one we could yet achieve this season.


It’s not really complicated, if we get say 87 points we can maybe argue that we’ve done enough but just been undone by the city machine but that will require a minimum of 4 points against spurs and United, and that we need that again reflects on the points we threw away earlier in the season.
That seems pretty likely now.


I don’t want Arteta here full stop whatever happens. But that’s completely different from my objective appraisal that if we are still in the title race on May 1st…he’s done just about enough.
Yay then? Your objection to Arteta seems a bit personal in a way I've always found a bit weird.
I think the progress is pretty clear. Didn't you elsewhere argue that comparing points across seasons is not valid (I don't really agree, but someone said that).
I think points is a reasonable metric and if we don't exceed last season's then we'll be close. It's the other tests we've passed in the 6 pointers and keeping winning in the run in which makes me think there's more about us this season. If it's not enough then so be it, but we're pushing City a lot harder than we did last year and we've had a pretty decent run in Europe too. There's a reasonable debate I guess about whether it's been enough progress given the money we've spent, but we look a lot more solid this year, more able to handle the pressure. We did nearly shit ourselves today of course but that was in large part due to Raya's error, but for that I don't think Spurs would have got a foothold.

[Niall_Quinn]

Clear progress?

We need to get seven points from the last four games just to match what we did last season

We have got more clean sheets and possibly may get more goals


But from my point of view, if we win all our games and still don’t win the title that’s slight very slight progress


And arguably for 200 million spent last summer that’s not great at all.

It's massive progress if we do that, given the habitual collapse routine.