This Weekend's Fixtures & Midwek Fixtures (29/30 Nov/01/03/04/05 Dec)

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Friday, 29th November 2024
Brighton & Hove Albion v Southampton, 20:00 https://i.imgur.com/htwHZ0c.jpg

Saturday, 30th November 2024
Brentford v Leicester City, 15:00
Crystal Palace v Newcastle United, 15:00
Nottingham Forest v Ipswich Town, 15:00
Wolverhampton Wanderers v Bournemouth, 15:00
West Ham United v Arsenal, 17:30 https://i.imgur.com/htwHZ0c.jpg

Sunday, 1st December 2024
Chelsea v Aston Villa, 13:30 https://i.imgur.com/htwHZ0c.jpg
Manchester United v Everton, 13:30
Tottenham Hotspur v Fulham, 13:30
Liverpool v Manchester City, 16:00 https://i.imgur.com/htwHZ0c.jpg

Tuesday, 3rd December 2024
Ipswich Town v Crystal Palace, 19:30
Leicester City v West Ham United, 20:15

Wednesday, 4th December 2024
Everton v Wolverhampton Wanderers, 19:30
Manchester City v Nottingham Forest, 19:30
Newcastle United v Liverpool, 19:30
Southampton v Chelsea, 19:30
Arsenal v Manchester United, 20:15
Aston Villa v Brentford, 20:15

Thursday, 5th December 2024
Fulham v Brighton & Hove Albion, 19:30
Bournemouth v Tottenham Hotspur, 20:15

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All the midweek games are on Prime Video.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Brighton 1-0 Southampton, Mitoma!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Downes made it 1-1.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Looks like Southampton should not have had a second ruled out.

[Mac76]

Spuds v Arsenal B tomorrow, let's hope our lads can do them

[Mac76]

Wolves 1 Bournemouth 2 after eight minutes :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Wolves 1 Bournemouth 2 after eight minutes :lol:

Strange old side Bournemouth, don’t know really what to expect from them from one match to the next. On one hand they’ve scored enough goals so far to suggest that they haven’t really suffered from selling Solanke. On the other hand their defence is a little bit suspect.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Also just realised Der Klassiker is on this evening, although it’s not really a competitive fixture for the title the way it has been. I do have a bit of a long standing soft spot for Borussia Dortmund….i keep meaning to get a match ticket for a game there as usually their home games are highly entertaining

[Mac76]

Now it's 1-3 to Bournemouth, pelanty

[HCZ_Reborn]

Buonanotte gives Leicester lead at Brentford

A player I rate very highly, currently on loan from Brighton

[HCZ_Reborn]

Wissa equalises 1-1

[HCZ_Reborn]

And Schade puts Brentford ahead :lol: quick turnaround

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Brentford 3-1 Leicester, Schade with his second.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Wood pel for Forest against Ipswich

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palace 0-1 Newcastle, Guehi OG

[HCZ_Reborn]

Palace 0-1 Newcastle, Guehi OG

:lol: the player they spent the whole summer trying to buy inadvertently gives them the lead

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Brentford 4-1 Leicester, Schade hat-trick

[HCZ_Reborn]

Wolves get to within a goal of Bournemouth 2-3, Larsen with his second

[HCZ_Reborn]

But Bournemouth get their third pel of the match

[McNamara That Ghost...]

What are Wolves doing in their box.

[HCZ_Reborn]

What are Wolves doing in their box.

Sa went studs up into Evanilson apparently

[McNamara That Ghost...]

A pelanty hat-trick. :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

A pelanty hat-trick. :lol:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/3771951.stm

That’s the last time I can think of such a thing happening

[dazthegooner]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/3771951.stm

That’s the last time I can think of such a thing happening

Must have happened with Harry Kane at some point:unsure:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Must have happened with Harry Kane at some point:unsure:

Not sure you know, I think he’s probably scored three or four goals where two of them were pels

Which is actually what he did with Bayern last weekend

[dazthegooner]

First time in the premiership apparently.

[Marc Overmars]

Hopefully City sort themselves out today but it’s hard to see anything but a home win.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

I'll continue with the pessimism and say City are due for a reaction etc etc.

We win and the narrative goes into overdrive of how it's ours to lose, bottling it. We lose and you can never count City out. Draw and..... It's bloody December. Long long way to go yet.

3-0 Haaland hat trick

Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Chelsea: Sanchez; Caicedo, Fofana, Colwill, Cucurella; Fernandez, Lavia; Neto, Palmer, Sancho; Jackson.
Subs: Jorgensen, Tosin, Badiashile, Veiga, Gusto, Madueke, Mudryk, Felix, Nkunku

Aston Villa: Martinez; Cash, Torres, Konsa, Digne; Kamara, Tielemans, McGinn; Philogene, Watkins, Rogers
Subs: Diego Carlos, Mings, Barkley, Duran, Buendía, Maatsen, Olsen, Bogarde, Bailey.

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Emery on trademark winless run. Sort it out FFS.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Spuds: Forster; Porro, Dragusin, Davies, Udogie; Sarr, Bissouma, Maddison; Werner, Son, Johnson
Subs: Austin, Reguilon, Gray, Bergvall, Kulusevski, Spence, Lankshear, Olusesi, Williams

Fulham: Leno; Tete, Diop, Bassey, Robinson; Berge, Lukic; Smith Rowe, Iwobi, Nelson; Jimenez
Subs: Benda, Wilson, Muniz, Cairney, Traore, Castagne, King, Sessegnon, Amissah

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Full mini-Arsenal line-up for Fulham. :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Man Utd: Onana, Mazraoui, De Ligt, Martinez, Fernandes, Rashford, Zirkzee, Amad, Casemiro, Dalot; Mainoo.
Subs: Bayindir, Maguire, Malacia, Shaw, Mount, Ugarte, Antony, Garnacho; Hojlund.

Everton: Pickford, Young, Tarkowski, Branthwaite, Mykolenko, Gana, Doucoure, Lindstrom, McNeil, Ndiaye; Beto.
Subs: Virginia, Begovic, Patterson, Mangala, Calvert-Lewin, Harrison, O'Brien, Coleman; Armstrong.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Spuds: Forster; Porro, Dragusin, Davies, Udogie; Sarr, Bissouma, Maddison; Werner, Son, Johnson
Subs: Austin, Reguilon, Gray, Bergvall, Kulusevski, Spence, Lankshear, Olusesi, Williams

Fulham: Leno; Tete, Diop, Bassey, Robinson; Berge, Lukic; Smith Rowe, Iwobi, Nelson; Jimenez
Subs: Benda, Wilson, Muniz, Cairney, Traore, Castagne, King, Sessegnon, Amissah

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Full mini-Arsenal line-up for Fulham. :bow:

They should sign Holding, Mavropanos and Willock in the transfer window. Take Nketiah on loan as well

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Sky audio has died. :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

They should sign Holding, Mavropanos and Willock in the transfer window. Take Nketiah on loan as well

Tavares too.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Chelsea 1-0 Villa, Jackson.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oh what a miss from Watkins!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Backpass!

Oh indirect freekick time.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Villa defend it.

So chaotic. :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Is there any particular reason why all the Sunday games are on 30 minutes earlier today?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I can only assume for policing reasons in relation to Liverpool v Man City, it being a night game, essentially.

Villa nearly fuck it up.

[HCZ_Reborn]

United in front through Rashford

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Man Utd 1-0 Everton, Rashford.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Is there any particular reason why all the Sunday games are on 30 minutes earlier today?

I was about to say I’m sure Liverpool-Man City has been played at 16:30 before, but you know what I’m not sure it has. Last two times this fixture has been played earlier on a Sunday afternoon so you could well be right

[HCZ_Reborn]

Chelsea 2-0 Enzo Fernandez

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-0 Fernandez.

Very good goal.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Emery must be veering to sack territory soon.

[HCZ_Reborn]

2-0 United Zirkzee

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Neverton. :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Emery must be veering to sack territory soon.

Crikey I didn’t realise how long this poor run of form had been going. With us it was 1 win in 9 that caused us to give him the push, and he’s won none of his last eight. I think because Villa have invested heavily in both him and the team he will be given more time, but needs to start getting results for sure

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Watkins fucks another one up.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Crikey I didn’t realise how long this poor run of form had been going. With us it was 1 win in 9 that caused us to give him the push, and he’s won none of his last eight. I think because Villa have invested heavily in both him and the team he will be given more time, but needs to start getting results for sure

Like anywhere else, if they keep going without winning, they'll get agitated.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Like anywhere else, if they keep going without winning, they'll get agitated.

Next two games are home to Brentford and Southampton. Think he will be expected to win both of those

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Man Utd 3-0 Everton, Rashford with his second.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Spurs 1-0 Fulham Johnson

Have Fulham not read the script? The away team is always meant to score first at Spurs :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

4-0 Man Utd, Zirkzee

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-1 Cairney. :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Cairney sent off too. :doh:

[HCZ_Reborn]

1-1 Cairney. :lol:

Cairney now sent off, after being brought on to replace Lukic who was on a yellow

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Chelsea 3-0 Villa, Palmer.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I think we're above Chelsea now on alphabetical order. :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

How is it not 4-0.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

3-0 FT at Stamford Bridge.

Alphabetical Order. :bow:

Clearlake to announce a club name change to AC Helsea tomorrow so they go up to second.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Tottenham 1-1 Fulham, FT. Oh Spurs.

So Spursy. :haha:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Liverpool: Kelleher, Alexander-Arnold, Gomez, Van Dijk, Robertson, Gravenberch, Szoboszlai, Mac Allister, Salah, Nunez, Gakpo.
Subs: Jaros, Davies, Endo, Nunez, Jones, Elliott, Quansah, Morton, Nyoni.

Manchester City: Ortega, Walker, Akanji, Dias, Ake, Lewis, Gundogan, Nunes, Silva, Foden, Haaland.
Subs: Ederson, Carson, Grealish, Doku, De Bruyne, Gvardiol, Savinho, O'Reilly, McAtee

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Ortega saves from Gakpo.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Shots galore from Liverpool.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Van Dijk header on to the post!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Liverpool 1-0 Man City, Gakpo.

[Marc Overmars]

:rose:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Van Dijk header, wide.

Wow, should be 2-0.

[Mac76]

Liverpool all over Citeh

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

:rose:

If only we'd approached the summer transfer window right....we'd be the ones celebrating this collapse.....instead we're struggling to keep a CL spot!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Alexander-Arnold shot, just wide.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Of course they are all over City, this is a side that couldn’t hold onto a 3 goal advantage at home to Feyenoord

[HCZ_Reborn]

If only we'd approached the summer transfer window right....we'd be the ones celebrating this collapse.....instead we're struggling to keep a CL spot!

Liverpool have scored 25 goals to our 26 currently, so unless you’re suggesting that we spaffed even more money on defenders

Honestly it’s like an online support group for incontinence

[Mac76]

Honestly it’s like an online support group for incontinence

Says the person who can't stop posting, just like a... [insert bad taste/suspect metaphor of your choice here]

[HCZ_Reborn]

Says the person who can't stop posting

I’m not really sure what point you think you’re making

It’s unlikely you are either

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Whilst it's one nil...

Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I don't think Man City can do much here unless Old Man De Bruyne comes on.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Barca went six games without a win when they won the treble. :wacko:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-0 HT.

Man City are probably quite happy with that given the start.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Only just seen city’s lineup now. Weird that they’ve gone with having zero width.

[Mac76]

A draw is still possible, my bet is he brings on a couple of players, e.g. Gvardiol and KDB, at HT

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I don't think Man City can do much here unless Old Man De Bruyne comes on.

Not sure De Bruyne is up to it either.

I mean with the last 2 seasons, it was a bit clear that Citeh needed something new this summer themselves, but Pep got complacent (which makes sense unlike us).

Like he says, he'll start the rebuilding this January. I just hope its way too late for him by then.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

How has Salah missed?!

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Can't believe Salah missed that.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Not sure De Bruyne is up to it either.

I mean with the last 2 seasons, it was a bit clear that Citeh needed something new this summer themselves, but Pep got complacent (which makes sense unlike us).

Like he says, he'll start the rebuilding this January. I just hope its way too late for him by then.

I just think he's the only hope of getting anything to Haaland.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I just think he's the only hope of getting anything to Haaland.

When Haalaand meets top CBs, he's easily tamed.

Their over reliance on him scoring has been their most obvious weakness (usually exposed in big games) and thats one of the main reasons they are struggling now.

Once the goals from KDB and Foden started drying up, Pep should have considered bringing in more direct goal threats.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Liverpool should be like 4 clear by now...

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Pelanty for Liverpool.

[Marc Overmars]

Game over :rose:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-0 Salah pelanty.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

This is the rightful end to this game, only one team has deserved this.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

De Bruyne on now. :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

4 league defeats in a row. Reign of terror well and truly at an end.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Did you see that Mac.....mannnnn KDB's best days are past him.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Did you see that Mac.....mannnnn KDB's best days are past him.

Didn't get it to Haaland, that's why.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Didn't get it to Haaland, that's why.
Not disputing their partnership has been crazy but in the good old days, he'd be confident enough to go it all alone himself.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-0 FT. Citeh. :lol:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Liverpool look pretty hungry under Slot.

Still not sure they'll win the league, but at least for neutral football fans, they can sleep well knowing it definitely won't be 5 in a row.

[Marc Overmars]

They need to drop points in at least 2 games this month otherwise I don’t see how we or anyone will be catching them.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Relying on Newcastle, Everton and Tottenham this month. :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

And us needing to win every game. :lol:

[Mac76]

It's a good thing everyone's been saying Liverpool are going to totally flunk the second half of the season or I'd be worried right now ;)

[Letters]

It's a good thing everyone's been saying Liverpool are going to totally flunk the second half of the season or I'd be worried right now ;)

It’s getting harder to discount them. But we’ve got our tails up and they can’t keep ON winning every game…can they?! I haven’t given up but let see where we are at the turn of the year

[Mac76]

Seriously if Citeh keep stumbling amd we can keep our run going, it could be quite an exciting season, be we need to start closing the gap on Liverpool pretty soon...

[HCZ_Reborn]

It’s getting harder to discount them. But we’ve got our tails up and they can’t keep ON winning every game…can they?! I haven’t given up but let see where we are at the turn of the year

Yet nothing has changed really for me. They are winning games I’d expect them to win

I’ll take them seriously if they come through Xmas unscathed. Hoping a completely useless Southampton and a completely demoralised City could help us out is one thing. Now I think the pressure is on them to put a sustained run together. City were completely hopeless and for all people going on about how hungry Liverpool were, they seemed to get more food down themselves rather than in their mouth.


As I said last week, the surprise has been about the extent of city’s collapse (I think today was more than just Rodri and lack of confidence, Guardiola completely botched it tactically) and to a lesser extent our own. Some very unforgivable results, number 1 in my view was the failure to beat Liverpool back in October (to my mind far more painful and infuriating than the losses to Bournemouth and Newcastle which we deserved nothing from)

[Letters]

Yet nothing has changed really for me
I’d expect nothing less.
But your excuses about them getting lucky or playing teams they should win or the opposition being no good are looking increasingly desperate and ridiculous with every game.
Spurs should beat Ipswich. And Fulham, while we are here. Teams don’t win every game they should win - except Liverpool have so far. Nottingham at home being the one and somewhat bizarre outlier.

They’re not just contenders, they have to be favourites right now.
I didn’t expect that at the start of the season, but here we are.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’d expect nothing less.
But your excuses about them getting lucky or playing teams they should win or the opposition being no good are looking increasingly desperate and ridiculous with every game.
Spurs should beat Ipswich. And Fulham, while we are here. Teams don’t win every game they should win - except Liverpool have so far. Nottingham at home being the one and somewhat bizarre outlier.

They’re not just contenders, they have to be favourites right now.
I didn’t expect that at the start of the season, but here we are.

I don’t know what to tell you, as I’ve said we could be looking at another Leicester City style season where the shoe doesn’t drop, or more accurately the usual sides fail to get it together. But actually I think it’s far more ridiculous to suggest 13 games in that it’s been anything other than easy fixtures and luck (well a mixture of luck and favourable decisions)


As I said here earlier, I think a lot of people are panicking prematurely. As if nine point gap to Liverpool means anything the way it would if it was a nine point gap to City

[Letters]

I don’t know what to tell you, as I’ve said we could be looking at another Leicester City style season where the shoe doesn’t drop, or more accurately the usual sides fail to get it together.
This is absolutely nothing like Leicester. They were completely out of the blue challengers, literally no-one would have tipped them pre-season. Now I wouldn't have tipped Liverpool - well, I didn't - but I'd have backed them for Top 4, they only finished 7 points off us last year and they were 14 points above Villa in 4th. They're not completely out of left field. Leicester won the league with 81 points in a season when no-one else got much more than 70. They won about 60% of their league games. That would only have been good enough for 4th last season.


But actually I think it’s far more ridiculous to suggest 13 games in that it’s been anything other than easy fixtures and luck (well a mixture of luck and favourable decisions)

That opinion is looking more and more like stubbornness with every game that goes by and they keep winning. But OK, let's look at their fixtures up till the turn of the year - a milestone we both agree is important:

Newcastle (A) - currently in 11th, just lost to West Ham at home.
Everton (A) - Yes it's a derby but they're currently 15th, having won 2 games all season.
Fulham (H) - Mid-table, in 10th. Should be a routine home win/
Spurs (A) - Well OK, that could be a difficult one. Spurs blow hot and cold a bit, they're certainly capable of getting something but equally capable of getting thumped.
Leicester (H) - Currently hovering just above the relegation zone.
West Ham (A) - You saw what we did to them, how are they going to stop Liverpool?

So by your own metric these are all games they "should" win, with the exception of Spurs and they're so random I don't know what to expect in that one.
So where are we making up those points?


As I said here earlier, I think a lot of people are panicking prematurely. As if nine point gap to Liverpool means anything the way it would if it was a nine point gap to City
I wouldn't say I was panicking, but dismissing it as luck and easy fixtures is looking increasingly idiotic. I haven't thrown in the towel yet but looking at their fixtures I don't see where they're going to drop many points this year other than surely they have to at some point - but I keep thinking that and they keep winning.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

They need to drop points in at least 2 games this month otherwise I don’t see how we or anyone will be catching them.

Yup, I think the math here works.

If by January, they've still got a lead of 9 points, its probably best to look towards next season.

Funnily I had earlier tipped Villa to be the dark horse this season.I had visions that Lord Emery would spring a surprise, cause enough chaos and maybe even rescue us from the dark reign of Pep singlehandedly :lol: ... but now it looks like it will definitely be one of the usual names.

Also I am beginning to think the dark Sorcerer played a fast one on all of us and trained another bald clone to keep his throne warm...if its not clear, I am talking about Maresca and the Chavs here.

Currently this is the outcome that would unsettle me more than any other.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It’s very much like Leicester, the potential for an unlikely title charge that came about because the expected contenders have gone off the boil. In fact you even have the parallel of City going completely the way Chelsea did nine years ago the season after winning the title.
I get that Liverpool were the last team that wasn’t Man City to win the title, but this just isn’t the same Liverpool team as that one not by any stretch of the imagination.

With the exception of Salah there really isn’t any player in that Liverpool team id take over their opposite number in our squad.

And Newcastle, Tottenham, West Ham and Everton are tougher away games than they’ve faced so far. Not the relegation fodder and teams desperately low on confidence that they’ve largely faced up until now. If they come through unscathed from a Merseyside derby, a physical midweek game at St James Park, a tussle with the current top scorers in the league and a West Ham side that for all its frailties against us was able to spring a smash and grab (they basically got two smash and grab goals against us)

[Letters]

It’s very much like Leicester, the potential for an unlikely title charge that came about because the expected contenders have gone off the boil.
City have fallen off a cliff. We are only 5 points down on this stage last season having had harder games. We should be closer to Liverpool but we haven't been as off the boil as it has seemed at times.
And we might not have tipped Liverpool at the start but they were certainly in the conversation having finished 3rd last year, well clear of the rest. To compare a Liverpool title this year to what Leicester did is ludicrous. To say that Leicester's title charge was "unlikely" is to massively understate how mind-boggling what they did was. It was, to all intents and purposes, impossible in the modern game.


I get that Liverpool were the last team that wasn’t Man City to win the title, but this just isn’t the same Liverpool team as that one not by any stretch of the imagination.
With the exception of Salah there really isn’t any player in that Liverpool team id take over their opposite number in our squad.
You'll have to tell the league table that. The more games they play the sillier your stance of "they're just getting lucky and playing easy games" becomes.


And Newcastle, Tottenham, West Ham and Everton are tougher away games than they’ve faced so far. Not the relegation fodder and teams desperately low on confidence that they’ve largely faced up until now.

They beat Utd away and while they've been in hilariously patchy form, we certainly saw it as a banana skin in our run-in last season.
They've won away at Brighton, who are 4th, and drawn away at our place.
This is just pointless stubbornness at this point.
I hope if they get through the games you mention you won't just find more excuses.

[HCZ_Reborn]

They won away at Brighton in the league cup, they played them in the league at Anfield. Tottenham won away at United

We went four games without a win that’s a big thing, two years ago we had the same points as Liverpool do now after arguably playing far tougher fixtures. We also scored more goals and conceded fewer. If I wasn’t necessarily convinced we were contenders after 13 games, why should I be anymore convinced that an inferior Liverpool side are

I don’t expect them to lose to both Newcastle and Everton but it certainly isn’t inconceivable that they do and then either for us or for Chelsea they look very catchable indeed.

I set very specific criteria for whether they should be taken seriously, just like I did last season for whether Arteta should keep his job, football is decided on fine margins.

And as I say if they navigate this month, I will be more inclined to believe that a Leicester City season is in the offing.

And by that I mean in no normal circumstance would this particular Liverpool side be expected to finish above both City and Arsenal

[Letters]

They won away at Brighton in the league cup
Ah, fair enough.
The issue for me is we don't just need Liverpool to drop points - which I agree they surely have to soon - they have to drop MORE points than us. Quite a lot more. And I don't see their run in December as that difficult. Everton beat them last year but that was when Liverpool were in their real slump and played their way out of the title race. This year Liverpool are flying, Everton...aren't. Spurs I have some hope for but you can never tell what they're going to do. They lost to Palace then thumped Villa, lost to Ipswich then hammered City and then drew to Fulham :lol:. They are capable of getting something vs Liverpool but you can never tell with them.

I just think you've underestimated Liverpool but I of course accept there is a long way to go and 13 games doth not a season make.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ah, fair enough.
The issue for me is we don't just need Liverpool to drop points - which I agree they surely have to soon - they have to drop MORE points than us. Quite a lot more. And I don't see their run in December as that difficult. Everton beat them last year but that was when Liverpool were in their real slump and played their way out of the title race. This year Liverpool are flying, Everton...aren't. Spurs I have some hope for but you can never tell what they're going to do. They lost to Palace then thumped Villa, lost to Ipswich then hammered City and then drew to Fulham :lol:. They are capable of getting something vs Liverpool but you can never tell with them.

I just think you've underestimated Liverpool but I of course accept there is a long way to go and 13 games doth not a season make.

You make assertions about Liverpool without having watched them play which is what I find peculiar. Of course the term “flying” is subjective, but it would to me suggest a team that looks unbeatable and I think you need to do more than look at the league table to examine the strength of that opinion. And this is perhaps why you appeared anyway somewhat blinded by City’s collapse.
Now of course Liverpool are not treading water even when winning games the way City were, but I don’t think flying is that adequate a description either. They looked all over the shop against Southampton for example, and they’ve been helped by two home games against teams that are struggling to find form.

I also think Newcastle, Everton, Tottenham and West Ham away represents collectively far harder opposition than Liverpool hitherto have had to face away from home this season. Could they win all four? Indeed. Just like City could have beaten Bournemouth, Brighton, Spurs and Liverpool.

[Letters]

You make assertions about Liverpool without having watched them play which is what I find peculiar.
P13 W11 D1 L1
They've scored more than anyone (apart from Spurs, weirdly), conceded fewer goals than anyone - by a mile.
I don't need to watch games to know that with a 3rd of the season gone this can no longer be dismissed as luck or easy fixtures.
But I do also talk to other football fans who watch games more than I do, I haven't heard anyone else claim Liverpool are just getting lucky.

[HCZ_Reborn]

P13 W11 D1 L1
They've scored more than anyone (apart from Spurs, weirdly), conceded fewer goals than anyone - by a mile.
I don't need to watch games to know that with a 3rd of the season gone this can no longer be dismissed as luck or easy fixtures.
But I do also talk to other football fans who watch games more than I do, I haven't heard anyone else claim Liverpool are just getting lucky.

I don’t think you can know any such thing, plus they’ve scored the same amount of goals as us after 13 games. A team that managed three goals in four games prior to the last two games. Four of those goals have been penalties, two of which to say the least fortuitously awarded, and there have been three games where they’ve needed the award of a penalty in order to win.

So yes the situation is clear, either watch Liverpool’s games and dispute my argument on that basis or don’t.

[Mac76]

Comparing Liverpool, a team with some of the same players that won the league a few seasons ago and have consistently been top four, with Leicester is absurd.

Yes Citeh have stumbled and created a big gap but Liverpool would be right up with them in any case.

And as for us, a mixture of ridiculous refereeing and Artateta's own caution haev left us further behind than we needed to be but I wouldn't rule us out altogether.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Comparing Liverpool, a team with some of the same players that won the league a few seasons ago and have consistently been top four, with Leicester is absurd.

Yes Citeh have stumbled and created a big gap but Liverpool would be right up with them in any case.

And as for us, a mixture of ridiculous refereeing and Artateta's own caution haev left us further behind than we needed to be but I wouldn't rule us out altogether.

Far more of the team that won them the league four/five years ago have moved on than still remain at the club


Van Dijk and Salah are world class players for sure, but aging world class players. Van Dijk is simply not the defender he was four-five years ago (and that’s to be expected).


The rest of that team? A mixture of good and ok players. And if City and Arsenal were firing on full cylinders they would certainly not be nine points clear or in my view leading the way at all.

So yes the last time where there a team that won the league when they were at least two or three teams with a better squad than them was Leicester City in 2016.


We know how the tv and print media fellates Liverpool because of the ex Liverpool players that are employed by it.

They looked at least to me a far better team in terms of performance a year ago, like then they have only lost one game…

I understand why people are nervous, city’s collapse should have made it our year and a nine point gap can appear daunting. But after 13 games treating it as even particularly significant seems foolhardy to me.


As I say, will see if Liverpool do a Leicester City (and I do not care if people don’t like the comparison, for me it is totally apt)

[Letters]

So yes the situation is clear, either watch Liverpool’s games and dispute my argument on that basis or don’t.
Again, you are not the only person who watches their games.
You are the only person I know of who does so and is dismissing this all as luck and easy fixtures.
It seems increasingly clear you're just doing this because of your pre-season predictions. Rather than admitting you under-rated them you are finding increasingly ridiculous excuses as to why you were right all along. But you've set out your criteria for evaluating them at the turn of the year so I guess let's resume this then.

[HCZ_Reborn]

If they are nine points clear on January 1st, then some reassessment will have to occur. Though i imagine that will more take the form of re-examining how I’ve overestimated the quality of our players.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Again, you are not the only person who watches their games.
You are the only person I know of who does so and is dismissing this all as luck and easy fixtures.
It seems increasingly clear you're just doing this because of your pre-season predictions. Rather than admitting you under-rated them you are finding increasingly ridiculous excuses as to why you were right all along. But you've set out your criteria for evaluating them at the turn of the year so I guess let's resume this then.

Do you remember two years ago where you scoffed at me for claiming I was able to make claims about Arteta as a person from his body language, how is this any different from what you’re doing here.

I know loads of people who think X, is the specious way that Mac makes arguments. For me it’s unfalsifiable because I have no idea whether these people exist and what their views actually are.

Personally I cannot see how it cannot be attributed massively to luck, but I don’t assert that…that’s an opinion.

I’m not impressed at all by this Liverpool side, that we are nine points behind them represents for me how fortunate they’ve been both in terms of favourable decisions by match officials and the failure of other teams to take their chances, and on our side a mixture of incredibly harsh unfavourable decision making by match officials and pig headed stubbornness on the part of our coach.

These discussions are pointless, I know what I think and why. But I’m not going to persuade you to think other than what you do about my motivations.

But I would remark that it’s funny how you rely on the majority opinion must be the correct one (if I allow for your statement that you know loads of other people who have watched Liverpool to be a factual claim) and yet seemingly can’t make that say connection when it comes to voting rights. Using your logic, you should go away and watch Liverpool play before coming to any firm opinion.

[Letters]

Do you remember two years ago where you scoffed at me for claiming I was able to make claims about Arteta as a person from his body language
I do! I continue to scoff at that.


how is this any different from what you’re doing here.
The difference is I have years of interaction with you on here, I'm not just looking at a few minutes of a highly edited "reality" show and making pontifications about the state of someone's marriage based on it.
You have a need to be very very right about things. A need I would concede I also have. But I like to think I'm a bit more willing to change my opinions based on new data and that's what I'm doing with Liverpool. The new data being they've dropped 5 points from 39 and, while we're here, they're top of the CL "table" too, having won every game there and just beaten Real Madrid (who are admittedly stuttering in the CL so far, but they're only a point off the top of La Liga having only lost one game domestically, they're not suddenly a bad side).

OK, fine, I don't watch football much these days. So I'll concede your opinion has more merit than mine in some ways. But as I've said you're not unique in watching football. You are unique - in terms of people I've spoken to and seen analysing how things are going - in dismissing Liverpool as this mediocre team who are just getting lucky.


Personally I cannot see how it cannot be attributed massively to luck, but I don’t assert that…that’s an opinion.
It just seems an increasingly silly opinion the longer the season goes on. You can get lucky in one off games maybe but from 13 league games and 5 CL games, they've won 16 drawn 1 and lost 1. And the loss was a bizarre outlier. To dismiss all that as just easy games and luck is perverse.

I certainly agree that we shouldn't be 9 points behind them. We have dropped points we shouldn't have. But this is about where Liverpool are, not us.


These discussions are pointless
Are you new here?


But I would remark that it’s funny how you rely on the majority opinion must be the correct one (if I allow for your statement that you know loads of other people who have watched Liverpool to be a factual claim) and yet seemingly can’t make that say connection when it comes to voting rights.
The difference being your opinion is not just the minority one, you are literally the only person I've heard make this argument.
I just Googled "are Liverpool just getting lucky" to see if I could find anyone else in any other corner of the internet and couldn't find much.


Using your logic, you should go away and watch Liverpool play before coming to any firm opinion.
That would obviously help, but while one off results don't tell you much I think a long enough run of them does. We've had enough results now for me to re-evaluate my pre-season opinion of Liverpool. They do have a lot of away games coming up in December but, honestly, I can't see that many fixtures which I think they'll struggle in. And as I said we have to be perfect to capitalise if they do slip. It's starting to feel a long way back. Not an impossible task and there's long enough left it can be chipped away at, but right now it's looking like Liverpool who will capitalise on City's demise, not us.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I do! I continue to scoff at that.


The difference is I have years of interaction with you on here, I'm not just looking at a few minutes of a highly edited "reality" show and making pontifications about the state of someone's marriage based on it.
You have a need to be very very right about things. A need I would concede I also have. But I like to think I'm a bit more willing to change my opinions based on new data and that's what I'm doing with Liverpool. The new data being they've dropped 5 points from 39 and, while we're here, they're top of the CL "table" too, having won every game there and just beaten Real Madrid (who are admittedly stuttering in the CL so far, but they're only a point off the top of La Liga having only lost one game domestically, they're not suddenly a bad side).

OK, fine, I don't watch football much these days. So I'll concede your opinion has more merit than mine in some ways. But as I've said you're not unique in watching football. You are unique - in terms of people I've spoken to and seen analysing how things are going - in dismissing Liverpool as this mediocre team who are just getting lucky.


It just seems an increasingly silly opinion the longer the season goes on. You can get lucky in one off games maybe but from 13 league games and 5 CL games, they've won 16 drawn 1 and lost 1. And the loss was a bizarre outlier. To dismiss all that as just easy games and luck is perverse.

I certainly agree that we shouldn't be 9 points behind them. We have dropped points we shouldn't have. But this is about where Liverpool are, not us.


Are you new here?


The difference being your opinion is not just the minority one, you are literally the only person I've heard make this argument.
I just Googled "are Liverpool just getting lucky" to see if I could find anyone else in any other corner of the internet and couldn't find much.


That would obviously help, but while one off results don't tell you much I think a long enough run of them does. We've had enough results now for me to re-evaluate my pre-season opinion of Liverpool. They do have a lot of away games coming up in December but, honestly, I can't see that many fixtures which I think they'll struggle in. And as I said we have to be perfect to capitalise if they do slip. It's starting to feel a long way back. Not an impossible task and there's long enough left it can be chipped away at, but right now it's looking like Liverpool who will capitalise on City's demise, not us.


But you accept presumably that you have zero basis to make that claim that you don’t think they’ll struggle in those games anymore than you have for the fact that they are flying. “I can’t see them struggling” is about as laudable as it would be if it was made by David Blunkett


I’m basing it on the fact that they simply have not collectively had such hard fixtures away from home. Of the six away games they’ve played so far, four have been against sides battling relegation, one against a side that due to poor results sacked its coach and barely scraped a draw against us in the poorest form we’ve had in almost a year.


Could there be a level they can reach that I’ve previously not seen where they aren’t relying almost singularly on Salah nearly every game, or the referee being generous with penalty awards.


Of course.


But I genuinely dont get the suggestion that this is not a far more significant test for them in the form of a mid week game at a physical Newcastle side, an away fixture at Goodison park where they’ve won only twice in the past eight seasons, spurs who though inconsistent have the ability to take big scalps and despite our win there West Ham will be no picnic either (though it’s probably the most winnable fixture for them out of the four). As you’ve spoken about form, it’s definitely not inconceivable to see dropped points in any of these games bleed through to their home games, because when you’ve been used to having it your own way and suddenly you don’t….uncertainty creeps in

[HCZ_Reborn]

My contention is that if they retain their current lead over us to the beginning of January it will more likely be because we’ve dropped points as well than them winning every game. We should be beating United but theres always the chance of dropped points in such a fixture as there are in away games against Fulham and Palace. If we don’t win those games we have no business winning the title anyway, and Liverpool will emerge as the best out of a very poor bunch of teams.

If we are five points or fewer behind them after having played Brentford and Brighton back to back at the beginning of next month, I think we should be considered favourites for the league on the basis of respective remaining games


That and I think at our best we would beat them at Anfield

[Letters]

But you accept presumably that you have zero basis to make that claim that you don’t think they’ll struggle in those games
No I don't. I have explained my basis.


But to suggest this is not a far more significant test for them in the form of a mid week game at a physical Newcastle side, an away fixture at Goodison park where they’ve won only twice in the past eight seasons, spurs who though inconsistent have the ability to take big scalps and despite our win there West Ham will be no picnic either (though it’s probably the most winnable fixture for them out of the four). As you’ve spoken about form, it’s definitely not inconceivable to see dropped points in any of these games bleed through to their home games, because when you’ve been used to having it your own way and suddenly you don’t….uncertainty creeps in
I hope you're right, obviously.


My contention is that if they retain their current lead over us to the beginning of January it will more likely be because we’ve dropped points as well than them winning every game.
That may be true but there's the issue in being 9 points off the top, every game becomes a must win.

[HCZ_Reborn]

No I don't. I have explained my basis.


I hope you're right, obviously.


That may be true but there's the issue in being 9 points off the top, every game becomes a must win.


Ok your basis is a league table, a league table will tell you what has happened but nothing about the how or why.


Or indeed your basis is people who might or might not exist (for the purpose of fairness I’ll presume they do) who unlike me have not suggested Liverpool’s fortune is largely attributable to fortune, favourable decisions and favourable fixtures.


And on that basis despite knowing anything else about how Liverpool is performing you feel confident to predict that you don’t see how they’ll struggle in the games they have to play this month.
Despite how they were second best for at least half of the game against Southampton, how the game before that against Villa…Villa also being in terrible form missed a great number of chances to equalise before the game was put to bed.

That Brighton knocked the living daylights out of them first half at Anfield and it would not have flattered them at all to be two or three nil up.

The dubious penalty decisions against Chelsea and against Southampton without which they probably wouldn’t have won either game.

The failure of awarding us a penalty against them, along with the numerous glaring chances we missed despite sitting back in the second half.

And you will invariably revert back to your “but they must be good, they’ve won 11 out of 13”


The free flowing team that has scored more than two goals in a game on fewer occasions than even we’ve managed

That struggle to put their own chances away and are grateful that their opponents are profligate

Like i say, will see how good they are when they aren’t playing relegation fodder and teams in the doldrums.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Also every game between now and the end of the year should be a must win, regardless of whether we have a 9 point deficit or a 9 point lead. Because they are games we should be winning.

If I appear irritable, it’s because of how ostensibly intelligent people are parroting a media that is utterly in the tank for Liverpool and treating them winning the title as a fait accomplit.

Very silly. Very precipitous

It’s like they are comparing this team to the one under Klopp, which was utterly relentless in the way it forced opponents into mistakes, had boundless energy and could just wear you down and put four or five past you. Compared to that Liverpool team, I state again this is more like a Leicester city

[Letters]

Ok your basis is a league table, a league table will tell you what has happened but nothing about the how or why.
The league table, the overall form they've been in, other conversations I've had with people and things I've read.
They've played 20 games this season in all competitions, won 18, drawn 1, lost 1. I don't need to have watched the games to know that's a team worth taking seriously. You can cherry pick incidents here and there in games where you feel they've got a bit lucky, but over 20 games I call bullshit on those results just being luck or easy games.


And on that basis despite knowing anything else about how Liverpool is performing you feel confident to predict that you don’t see how they’ll struggle in the games they have to play this month.
I wouldn't say I'm very confident - I don't think one should ever be too confident about predictions in football. It is, famously, a "funny old game". But on paper yeah, I think those are mostly games they should win. But they do have a lot of away games coming up so I am of course hopeful they'll slip up here and there and that we can capitalise.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The league table, the overall form they've been in, other conversations I've had with people and things I've read.
They've played 20 games this season in all competitions, won 18, drawn 1, lost 1. I don't need to have watched the games to know that's a team worth taking seriously. You can cherry pick incidents here and there in games where you feel they've got a bit lucky, but over 20 games I call bullshit on those results just being luck or easy games.


I wouldn't say I'm very confident - I don't think one should ever be too confident about predictions in football. It is, famously, a "funny old game". But on paper yeah, I think those are mostly games they should win. But they do have a lot of away games coming up so I am of course hopeful they'll slip up here and there and that we can capitalise.


They have won 11 games out of 13 and a lot of it is down to luck, yet you’re responding as if I’m saying that every game they’ve won is down to luck.

No but they have had great fortune in playing us when they did, and playing city when they did. They got massive get out of jail card against Brighton and Southampton. And the fortune of the four times league winner falling apart at the seams.


Without that luck would they be leading the table at all let alone 9 points clear….its possible but as I keep banging my head on the desk figuratively to make clear, they are no better than last season in my view actually not as good and they have benefited heavily from fortune in their own games, fortune with city’s collapse and fortune with us not winning a single game in four.

I struggle with the fact that, that’s even controversial. I am confounded by their nine point gap only in so far that we should have beaten Bournemouth and Liverpool and that without referee intervention we’d have beaten Brighton and Man City (in my view, there’s no certainty)

Even in the champions league a competition they have rich historical prestige in, I watched their game against AC Milan and I wasn’t especially impressed at all….it was more of an indicator of how poor European teams have become (that’s not a dig at Liverpool either, I think when we won there in 2018 it was more a reflection on how poor they were rather than how good we were as well)


So to paraphrase Mrs Thatcher, you be impressed if you want to….but I’m going to have to see a lot more before I’m especially impressed and not just annoyed at the position we’ve put ourselves in

[HCZ_Reborn]

If you like I can break it down for you

Ipswich (a) - on balance deserved to win but they were distinctly ruffled first half

Brentford (h) - equally deserved to win but also had moments where but for Brentford being poor finishers could have dropped points

United (a) - United were terrible start to finish, 3-0 reasonable reflection of the game

Forest (h) - Liverpool were utterly blunted by Forest, once they scored they never looked like getting back into it


Bournemouth (h) - Comfortable win


Wolves (a) - Made it more difficult for themselves than needed


Palace (a) - Despite dominating early on were holding on at the end and grateful for palace being unable to make anything of their chances


Chelsea (h) - Dubious penalty settled game, when draw would have been fair result


Arsenal (a) - Should have had a penalty given to us, and again missed chances to kill the game off at 2-1, distinctly second best to us


Brighton (h) - Whether this was luck or character depends who you ask but they were played off the park by Brighton first half


Villa (h) - Bit like Brentford, Liverpool had most of the chances but Villa missed a couple of sitters


Southampton (a) - Benefited from a harsh penalty and Southampton committing self harm in defence


City (h) - Definitely deserved win albeit against a Shellshocked City team who decided to put out a questionable lineup



In my opinion, there are probably eight points Liverpool can attribute to good fortune. And unlike us they’ve had no bad fortune to balance it out

[Letters]

I struggle with the fact that, that’s even controversial.
I alluded to other people I talk to about football. You must do the same.
Is your thesis accepted by them or do they all think you're nuts too?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I alluded to other people I talk to about football. You must do the same.
Is your thesis accepted by them or do they all think you're nuts too?

Fuck me I’m suggesting a team has been lucky to get 20-25% of the points it has, it’s not claiming in discredited research that there’s a causal link between the MMR jab and autism.

Most friends I don’t discuss football with full stop because they aren’t interested. My brother doesn’t take issue with my claim about how fortunate they’ve been, but thinks we are more likely to drop points than them (but his mind has been poisoned by living in Liverpool so he cannot be trusted as an impartial individual). Another friend conversely is rabidly anti Liverpool to the point where he claims that due to Covid the season should have been scrapped and that they shouldn’t have been allowed to win the title then (now that is objectively a ridiculous opinion)

I think you talk about my need to be right when this whole futile argument seems to me to be predicated on your need to be right. It’s there in writing that I will have to reassess my view of them as both title contenders or likely title winners if they get past this hurdle. But it’s not enough, I need in your view to state something I don’t believe in the first place that there has been anything exceptional about them this season, I will concede that the Dutchman has been smart…I think the defeat at Nottingham Forest means that he reverted to the blueprint laid down for him by Klopp rather than try to model this Liverpool team in his own image and forcing a relatively more languid style on them.


But again it’s not a giant crazed conspiracy theory that they’ve been exceptionally lucky in a way we haven’t. And that a 9 point gap is not as daunting when you consider their remaining fixtures relative to ours, where I do agree is that a 9 point gap would be undesirable if it’s not eaten away sooner rather than later (when we have much easier fixtures to navigate than them).

[Letters]

Fuck me I’m suggesting a team has been lucky to get 20-25% of the points it has, it’s not claiming in discredited research that there’s a causal link between the MMR jab and autism.
:lol: So you haven't gone full NQ then. That's reassuring. One should never go full NQ.
That just feels an improbably high percentage this far into the season is all.


Another friend conversely is rabidly anti Liverpool to the point where he claims that due to Covid the season should have been scrapped and that they shouldn’t have been allowed to win the title then (now that is objectively a ridiculous opinion)
I'd have laughed my moobs off had they declared that season null and void with Liverpool so far ahead but yes that would have been ridiculous.


I think you talk about my need to be right when this whole futile argument seems to me to be predicated on your need to be right.
I'm the one saying I was wrong, pre-season :shrug:


It’s there in writing that I will have to reassess my view of them as both title contenders or likely title winners if they get past this hurdle.
Well OK. Let's talk again in January. Of course, I hope you're right. I also don't think it's an insurmountable gap but my worry is we can't really afford any slips and we need Liverpool to do so quite a lot relative to how they've started. I don't think they will keep going at this rate, but winning becomes a habit so we need someone to dent that soon to stop their momentum. We are starting to build up some ourselves and we should be able to beat Utd but they're in a bit of a new manager halo so that's a banana skin.

[HCZ_Reborn]

:lol: So you haven't gone full NQ then. That's reassuring. One should never go full NQ.
That just feels an improbably high percentage this far into the season is all.


I'd have laughed my moobs off had they declared that season null and void with Liverpool so far ahead but yes that would have been ridiculous.


I'm the one saying I was wrong, pre-season :shrug:


Well OK. Let's talk again in January. Of course, I hope you're right. I also don't think it's an insurmountable gap but my worry is we can't really afford any slips and we need Liverpool to do so quite a lot relative to how they've started. I don't think they will keep going at this rate, but winning becomes a habit so we need someone to dent that soon to stop their momentum. We are starting to build up some ourselves and we should be able to beat Utd but they're in a bit of a new manager halo so that's a banana skin.


Well it’s not a high percentage in terms of games, it’s saying there are four games from the 13 where they’ve been lucky to get either something or all three points from.


Chelsea, Us, Brighton and Southampton

I think Chelsea deserved a draw, they deserved to lose to us and Brighton and I think Southampton deserved a draw. There are games in the past where we’ve got more points than we deserve to
And I’ve explained why, you can either agree or disagree with the reasons I’ve given for it but, it’s weird to think of it as out there when there’s been an equally similar amount of games we’ve been unlucky with.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Ah piss flaps. I had an entire post written out and clicked Discard instead of Save.

Crack on, lads.

Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk

[HCZ_Reborn]

When Haalaand meets top CBs, he's easily tamed.

Their over reliance on him scoring has been their most obvious weakness (usually exposed in big games) and thats one of the main reasons they are struggling now.

Once the goals from KDB and Foden started drying up, Pep should have considered bringing in more direct goal threats.

I’ve only just seen this now

Do you honestly think City just decided not to bring in another goalscorer just to even the odds maybe?

Or maybe that especially given that they are under investigation for having historically posted false accounting in regard to financial sustainability compliance, it probably wouldn’t be the smartest thing in the world to push the boat out?. Similarly do you think Newcastle are just being frugal despite being owned to all intents and purposes by MBS of Saudi Arabia for the fun of it as well?

[Letters]

Ah piss flaps. I had an entire post written out and clicked Discard instead of Save.

Crack on, lads.

Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk

:lol:

I was hoping you might join it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

SIB doesn’t strike me as a typical Liverpool fan, not full of hubris and weird sense of entitlement based on achievements made back when the Berlin Wall was still up.

[Letters]

SIB doesn’t strike me as a typical Liverpool fan, not full of hubris and weird sense of entitlement based on achievements made back when the Berlin Wall was still up.

Agreed. That’s why I’d be interested in his opinion. The other Liverpool fan I know is very much a “don’t count your chickens” kind of guy so I doubt he’s planning the open top bus route just yet but I’d be interested to know what he thinks about your thesis.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Agreed. That’s why I’d be interested in his opinion. The other Liverpool fan I know is very much a “don’t count your chickens” kind of guy so I doubt he’s planning the open top bus route just yet but I’d be interested to know what he thinks about your thesis.

I don’t know why you call it a thesis, it’s an opinion

Teams get lucky in games and win games or get draws where they might otherwise not really be deserving of it

Shock horror it’s happened to us, even two years ago when we had the same amount of points as Liverpool do now after 13 games there was one game I can highlight where I think we were extremely fortunate to get anything at all from the game let alone the win, and that was away at Leeds.

Leeds dominated the game from the time Saka put us ahead to the final whistle, and not only that but we had some big decisions go our way courtesy of VAR.

I’d also argue that in the first game of the season we got lucky when beating Crystal Palace, they pushed us back and it took a wicked deflection own goal to secure the points

[Letters]

I don’t know why you call it a thesis, it’s an opinion
Oh holy shit, let’s not get into a bloody argument about semantics, you know what I mean!


Teams get lucky in games and win games or get draws where they might otherwise not really be deserving of it
Of course. But the reverse happens too. You can thump a side but the ‘keeper has one of those “none shall pass” days or you get a dodgy VAR call against you which disallows a goal. Then it goes in your net off someone’s arse and suddenly you lose a game and aren’t sure how. Of course those things happen but you seem to think that Liverpool have only had the kind of luck where things go their way. As we’ve discussed I haven’t watched the games but it’s far enough in to the season where that’s starting to feel statistically unlikely.

But I’d be interested to hear what Sibbles thinks.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh holy shit, let’s not get into a bloody argument about semantics, you know what I mean!


Of course. But the reverse happens too. You can thump a side but the ‘keeper has one of those “none shall pass” days or you get a dodgy VAR call against you which disallows a goal. Then it goes in your net off someone’s arse and suddenly you lose a game and aren’t sure how. Of course those things happen but you seem to think that Liverpool have only had the kind of luck where things go their way. As we’ve discussed I haven’t watched the games but it’s far enough in to the season where that’s starting to feel statistically unlikely.

But I’d be interested to hear what Sibbles thinks.

Honestly this is getting ridiculous now

What the fuck has statistical probability got to do with anything. Football games are often decided on fine margins, if Liverpool have had bad luck in that they could have won a game by five goals in which they only won by two it has had no material difference on their points total.

I’ve said that I believe they’ve been fortunate to get eight of the 34 points they’ve amassed. Either because they’ve been awarded soft penalties or not had penalties given against them or a side that outplayed them were noticeably missing glaring chances. We aren’t scientifically breaking every down instance now to a probability equation for fuck sake.

This debate is completely about your stubbornness not mine. I’m telling you there are games that in my view they got more points from than I thought they deserved and you’re tapping away at an imaginary calculator

Jesus, maybe spend some time with this missus because this is getting more interminable than reading your endless and ultimately pointless back and forths with NQ. If you’ve got time to debate to this, you’ve certainly got time to go back and watch extended highlights of the game and then come back to me and state whether you think it’s fair to say there are four games that on balance they probably didn’t deserve to win

[HCZ_Reborn]

Honestly if it was just about holding onto a position from the beginning of the season, I’d have just made a remark about “oh that opinion panned out well” and left it at that. Or I’d just prefer to avoid the whole debate.

What you are essentially accusing me of is arguing dishonestly.

No, I’m saying what I honestly believe. Which is that Liverpool have had the rub of the green, they’ve had us fail to win in four, city the wheels fall off, they’ve had Salah and Van Dijk come into form in a way they hadn’t as much last season and the fortune on the pitch has in my view outweighed the misfortune.

There is a chasm of difference between agreeing with my opinion and treating it like I’m talking about chemtrails

[Mac76]

Other teams' bad luck is only good luck for Liverpool if they take advantage of it - which they have

I think this season is becoming much more interesting than us trying to beat a robotically good Citeh and I just hope Liverpool do stutter and all our bad luck is behind us, but it will be difficult v Man Ure tomorrow - the new manager's already got them playing better and Rashford always gets a worldy at our ground, so we're basically starting 0-1 in that game already

[HCZ_Reborn]

Other teams' bad luck is only good luck for Liverpool if they take advantage of it - which they have


Whilst this is of course true. It’s only one aspect of where I think Liverpool have been Fortunate

As i said last week about United, you’re not going to get tangible improvement (as in getting back to the point where they are competing for things) without significant squad overhaul. Beating Everton in a one off game suggests nothing. Maybe Rashford will get his obligatory goal against us, but if we actually turn up and play I expect three points

[Mac76]

Maybe they do need a squad overhaul but if Leicester did prove one thing it's that the sides with the best players don't always win against a side with belief and momentum

I believe someone once said you can't win the league with kids, they were wrong too...

[HCZ_Reborn]

Maybe they do need a squad overhaul but if Leicester did prove one thing it's that the sides with the best players don't always win against a side with belief and momentum

I believe someone once said you can't win the league with kids, they were wrong too...

The kids in question were Ryan Giggs, David Beckham and Paul Scholes

I think some of their current youngsters are decent, but they aren’t at that level. Certainly not without bolstering

Youngsters also need to learn from older players, our youngsters like Fabregas, Reyes etc had plenty of people in the team they could learn from. Some of the senior members of that United squad are largely responsible for its malaise, overpaid prima donnas.

[Letters]

What you are essentially accusing me of is arguing dishonestly.
No, I'm accusing you of stubbornness.
Statistical probability is relevant because you can't just fluke a title. I'd argue Utd were lucky to win the Cup last year. They were a VAR decision away from humiliation vs Coventry, they were admittedly good in the final. But in cups you can get a bit of luck here and there which sees you through. In a league...not so much. The season isn't over of course, but I'm looking at their season as a whole so far. 20 games, won 18, drawn 1, lost 1. I'm not disputing they've been lucky in some games, that of course happens. But those stats aren't just luck, there's something about a team that can achieve that. Something which makes me believe I underestimated them.
Whether they can do it over the course of a whole season remains to be seen, and I'd agree they have overall had easier fixtures. But you've set out your criteria for how you're going to evaluate them so one thing we are aligned on is the importance of the Christmas milestone. If they're still this far above us at the turn of the year it's going to be tricky to haul them in.

[HCZ_Reborn]

No, I'm accusing you of stubbornness.
Statistical probability is relevant because you can't just fluke a title. I'd argue Utd were lucky to win the Cup last year. They were a VAR decision away from humiliation vs Coventry, they were admittedly good in the final. But in cups you can get a bit of luck here and there which sees you through. In a league...not so much. The season isn't over of course, but I'm looking at their season as a whole so far. 20 games, won 18, drawn 1, lost 1. I'm not disputing they've been lucky in some games, that of course happens. But those stats aren't just luck, there's something about a team that can achieve that. Something which makes me believe I underestimated them.
Whether they can do it over the course of a whole season remains to be seen, and I'd agree they have overall had easier fixtures. But you've set out your criteria for how you're going to evaluate them so one thing we are aligned on is the importance of the Christmas milestone. If they're still this far above us at the turn of the year it's going to be tricky to haul them in.

No it’s not me being stubborn at all, it’s you. No one has said anything about fluking a title (apart from anything else because they’ve won nothing yet). What I’ve said is that in four games out of the 13 they’ve played…they got more points than perhaps they deserved to. And without even watching the games you’re showing the unmitigated arrogance of saying “well that’s statistically unlikely” as if there’s an objective measurement to be made. It’s an opinion, it’s not an out there one…it’s more out there that you’re dismissing what essentially comes down to a subjective point of view without even looking at the games in question.

Not only that but you’ve made assertions about how you believe they will perform in games coming up when you have little idea of how they’ve performed in games previously, apart from anecdotal evidence and looking at a league table.


Honestly it’s fucking ridiculous, and I think I’m going to have to draw a line under it now. I will not engage with you on this subject further until you actually make the effort to actually watch the games. Because then I could respect your opinion if you said “well I watched this game and whilst you’re right that X happened, I think it’s too simplistic an assessment because the overall play was better than Y”

[HCZ_Reborn]

Apart from anything else you look at it in such a binary way. Apart from anything else after 13 games it’s not actually all that impressive….been there done that comes to mind. We won 12 out of our first 14 in 2022/2023, and were only five points ahead of Man City and the main thing to impress upon you…..we didn’t win the title that year.

Now if we were only five points clear of City and Liverpool are nine clear of us, by definition it says more about us being nine points behind than it does them.


As I also said, in that 14 game spell there were 2-3 games we were lucky to win (we won 3-2 against Liverpool at the Emirates, they could easily have been awarded a penalty against us) and actually if anything played far better than they did in the game two years later where they did get a draw.

Saying I think being 9 points clear flatters them a bit, I think they are being overhyped for winning games that largely in the course of a season they’d be expected to win and that they haven’t properly been tested yet and we will see where they are when they are. Isn’t even miles removed from how I’d have assessed Arsenal two years ago and yet I’m being stubborn and harsh.

No…I’m just not prepared to jump the gun like everyone else is. And you read it like I’m saying “oh they are shit, they are Only where they are because they’ve fluked it”

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I’ve only just seen this now

Do you honestly think City just decided not to bring in another goalscorer just to even the odds maybe?

Or maybe that especially given that they are under investigation for having historically posted false accounting in regard to financial sustainability compliance, it probably wouldn’t be the smartest thing in the world to push the boat out?. Similarly do you think Newcastle are just being frugal despite being owned to all intents and purposes by MBS of Saudi Arabia for the fun of it as well?

I am struggling to see how the post you quoted ( or the previous exchange that led to it) directly advocates that Pep should have brought in another striker during the game or before the season started (not a bad idea though, but clearly not what we were discussing at that time).

Anyway its clear you've got your hands full nowadays with doubling down on this ridiculous (there is no kinder way of putting this) comparison of Liverpool doing a Leicester....so I won't take up anymore of your time which should allow you to get back to digging that hole deeper and deeper.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I am struggling to see how the post you quoted ( or the previous exchange that led to it) directly advocates that Pep should have brought in another striker during the game or before the season started (not a bad idea though, but clearly not what we were discussing at that time).

Anyway its clear you've got your hands full nowadays with doubling down on this ridiculous (there is no kinder way of putting this) comparison of Liverpool doing a Leicester....so I won't take up anymore of your time which should allow you to get back to digging that hole deeper and deeper.

Could be worse, could be arguing that Chelsea is a good model for running a club. Then I’d have all my work ahead of me

But on this I will concede, it did sound like you were talking in general rather than presumably what you did mean about bringing players onto the field from the bench during the match.


But given how you’ve promoted the heedless Chelsea approach, I think I can be forgiven for this misunderstanding

And for you to claim any argument is ridiculous only proves to me it’s value so thank you :tiphat:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Could be worse, could be arguing that Chelsea is a good model for running a club. Then I’d have all my work ahead of me

But on this I will concede, it did sound like you were talking in general rather than presumably what you did mean about bringing players onto the field from the bench during the match.


But given how you’ve promoted the heedless Chelsea approach, I think I can be forgiven for this misunderstanding

And for you to claim any argument is ridiculous only proves to me it’s value so thank you :tiphat:

Since you asked nicely, IIRC what me and Maccy discussed was Pep changing the game by bringing a KDB or so off the bench.

Maccy felt Haaland could be unchained if that occured. But my argument was that giving him better service necessarily would not make difference because he was being marshalled out and that was the problem.

When we discussed "goal threats" we were talking about the supporting acts. Saka is a goal threat. Trossard use to be one till he got a bit pompous and broke himself.

In the good old days, before they got over reliant on Haaland's monster contributions, KDB and Foden were potent goal threats. KDB seems to be succumbing to age (though I think age shouldn't stop something that's instinctive) and IMO Foden has been on a downward spiral since his old bunkmate Palmer started burning the charts.

Pep's version of tippy tappy excels when the supporting act is actually the main act if you ask me. The last 2 years that he has struggled to win the league was when he changed the mode to suit Haaland. Note there are a lot of parallels with the way Arteta sets us up too.

Anyway, back to our childish squabbles. Its funny you choose to mention Chelsea. I noticed in an earlier post you also gave them a shout out for a tittle challenge (probably more to suit your Anti-Liverpool rhetoric). If they did win it, would they be doing a Leicester too? Would you eat your words on how badly run a club they are and how there model can only lead to failure? BTW it seems you are digging a new whole for yourself with United too, but don't let me stop you underating everyone except Citeh.

It's been a pretty interesting season so far. If we had adequately prepared ourselves and were doing better I would have rated it as the best season in ages. Anyway I do hope the surprises, which are actually not surprises, continue.

[Mac76]

The kids in question were Ryan Giggs, David Beckham and Paul Scholes

I think some of their current youngsters are decent, but they aren’t at that level.


Scholes was an overrated ****, and the others fine though not sure actually how old they were or whether 'kids' was an exageration anyway but the point was they were youngish and relatively unproven and surprised everyone with their ability to see out a whole season and win - while I hate him to the core i guess that's where you have to give the manager some credit, although of course his bullying of refs and the FA also was worth ten points or so

[HCZ_Reborn]

Scholes was an overrated ****, and the others fine though not sure actually how old they were or whether 'kids' was an exageration anyway but the point was they were youngish and relatively unproven and surprised everyone with their ability to see out a whole season and win - while I hate him to the core i guess that's where you have to give the manager some credit, although of course his bullying of refs and the FA also was worth ten points or so

Scholes was overrated is certainly an opinion I guess

Not for nothing, I will concede he never really did much at international level. But he was a top player for Man United in my view. The only thing he couldn’t do was tackle….:haha: fuck me he could not do that for shit

[HCZ_Reborn]

Since you asked nicely, IIRC what me and Maccy discussed was Pep changing the game by bringing a KDB or so off the bench.

Maccy felt Haaland could be unchained if that occured. But my argument was that giving him better service necessarily would not make difference because he was being marshalled out and that was the problem.

When we discussed "goal threats" we were talking about the supporting acts. Saka is a goal threat. Trossard use to be one till he got a bit pompous and broke himself.

In the good old days, before they got over reliant on Haaland's monster contributions, KDB and Foden were potent goal threats. KDB seems to be succumbing to age (though I think age shouldn't stop something that's instinctive) and IMO Foden has been on a downward spiral since his old bunkmate Palmer started burning the charts.

Pep's version of tippy tappy excels when the supporting act is actually the main act if you ask me. The last 2 years that he has struggled to win the league was when he changed the mode to suit Haaland. Note there are a lot of parallels with the way Arteta sets us up too.

Anyway, back to our childish squabbles. Its funny you choose to mention Chelsea. I noticed in an earlier post you also gave them a shout out for a tittle challenge (probably more to suit your Anti-Liverpool rhetoric). If they did win it, would they be doing a Leicester too? Would you eat your words on how badly run a club they are and how there model can only lead to failure? BTW it seems you are digging a new whole for yourself with United too, but don't let me stop you underating everyone except Citeh.

It's been a pretty interesting season so far. If we had adequately prepared ourselves and were doing better I would have rated it as the best season in ages. Anyway I do hope the surprises, which are actually not surprises, continue.

Oh if Chelsea won the title it absolutely would be a Leicester City event, far more than Liverpool in the sense that they were basically mid table last season

And No given that my argument about Chelsea is that unlike Man City they’ve never attempted to build a consistent winning team since Mourinho went, winning the title and then disappearing back to mid table obscurity because of the chaotic way they run the club and are asking for massive trouble with their wage bill….i don’t think them winning the title (as unlikely as that is).


Now the one thing I will say for Liverpool is I think they are a very well run club, despite you espousing the merits of hiring and firing. They brought in the bald Dutchman because Klopp chose to go not because they fired him for finishing third.


If Liverpool win the title (and I think where we probably agree is that it should be curtains for Arteta if they do) is that it actually promotes a settled and long term approach, because I think if they do (and I still think 9 points is not the insurmountable lead that people assume it is) then they are far more likely to be stable enough to gradually build on that success rather than a revolving door hiring policy for coaches and players

[Mac76]

If Liverpool win the title (and I think where we probably agree is that it should be curtains for Arteta if they do)

depends - I think he was a bit defensive when we went to 10 men, especially against Brighton when I think we could still have got three points, and failing to sign another attacker as an obvious error

But the rediculous red cards we've had, plus Citeh getting as much extra time as they needed to equalise at their place, are not on Arteta

Nor are the injuries, most of which have been caused by these ridiculous no-one-gives-a-fcuk internationals they have to keep jetting off to play in

If we play well from now on and give Liverpool a run for their money to finish a good second I think he has enough mitigating circs on his side

[HCZ_Reborn]

I disagree, mainly because I think if Liverpool win the title it won’t be because they’ve done a Man City monster run (even now I don’t think they’ve won more than four games in a row). It will be because we’ve dropped silly points despite having relatively easier fixtures (as in our remaining fixtures are easier than their remaining fixtures)

Unforgivable failure

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

depends - I think he was a bit defensive when we went to 10 men, especially against Brighton when I think we could still have got three points, and failing to sign another attacker as an obvious error

But the rediculous red cards we've had, plus Citeh getting as much extra time as they needed to equalise at their place, are not on Arteta

Nor are the injuries, most of which have been caused by these ridiculous no-one-gives-a-fcuk internationals they have to keep jetting off to play in

If we play well from now on and give Liverpool a run for their money to finish a good second I think he has enough mitigating circs on his side

Sorry Mac, I can't agree with you less, especially on him using the unfair red cards as a get out of jail card.

Let me make it clear, IMO all our red cards were unfair. However, there is a culture that Arteta has instilled in the team of wasting time when we are ahead. Even on Saturday, our players were still delaying freekicks and doing the same things that "apparently" got Rice and Trossard sent off. However, every other team does this, but I would have expected Arteta to have coached it out of his players by now, since we've been targeted as the designated fall guy for this unsportsmanlike behaviour. Mark my words, we will still get someone else sent off for this...and that will be totally Arteta's fault for being a poor leader.

Anyway, like you also mentioned, playing with 10 men is not a death sentence and like you have all preached to HCZ, injuries and luck usually go round in a 38 game season, thus at least with the injuries part, you should have made adequate preparations.

I can't even imagine what would happen if Saka got injured for the rest of the season or where we would finish. That stupid over reliance on a single player (like what happened with Odegaard) is bad management. He had the Saliba season to learn from that mistake and has clearly over fortified the defence in response to that. Why he wouldn't have attempted to even try something similar for the attack beats my imagination.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Oh if Chelsea won the title it absolutely would be a Leicester City event, far more than Liverpool in the sense that they were basically mid table last season

And No given that my argument about Chelsea is that unlike Man City they’ve never attempted to build a consistent winning team since Mourinho went, winning the title and then disappearing back to mid table obscurity because of the chaotic way they run the club and are asking for massive trouble with their wage bill….i don’t think them winning the title (as unlikely as that is).


Now the one thing I will say for Liverpool is I think they are a very well run club, despite you espousing the merits of hiring and firing. They brought in the bald Dutchman because Klopp chose to go not because they fired him for finishing third.


If Liverpool win the title (and I think where we probably agree is that it should be curtains for Arteta if they do) is that it actually promotes a settled and long term approach, because I think if they do (and I still think 9 points is not the insurmountable lead that people assume it is) then they are far more likely to be stable enough to gradually build on that success rather than a revolving door hiring policy for coaches and players

You are usually a "good" student of history but it's like you just want to pretend that Leicester winning the league wasn't something out of this world.

Anyway, at the beginning of this season, Liverpool were 3rd favourites by the bookies with odds of 13/2. Chelsea, joint 5th with Spurs with odds of 25/1.

The year Leicester won the league most bookies didn't even have odds for them when the book opened as they barley escaped relegation the previous season. In fact they were odds on at 1/20 to get relegated. Finally when the season started the bookies relented and they were 5000/1 (the highest the bookies could nominally put) to win the league.

Any comparison of a traditional big 6 side chances with Leicester's achievement that year will remain ridiculous for so many glaring reasons.

As for Liverpool winning the league this year being a triumph for stability and keeping things the same.....you are clearly clutching at straws and singing a different tune to what you said about them at the start of the season.

[HCZ_Reborn]

My argument back then was that it seemed silly to me to assume that Liverpool would finish above us especially given how they’d finished comfortably below us the two proceeding seasons, that they had not significantly strengthened and to top it all they had a new coach which invariably when a new coach replaces a coach that has been there sometime it doesn’t lend itself well to immediate success.

My comparison with Leicester City is that Liverpool find themselves in a position that no one really predicted that they would be in, now I get that there are differences in that the standard wisdom would be that Leicester would be more likely battling relegation than battling for the title, but the similarity is that Liverpool are where they are (9 points clear) as a result of Arsenal’s indifferent form and City’s collapse.

In 2015/2016 if you look at the table, neither City, Chelsea or us got any higher than 71 points. Now whilst not as extreme as that, I do think if Liverpool win the title it will be more likely that they do so with a lower points total than what other clubs have achieved in recent seasons. I don’t think for example that they will better the 84 points we got in 2022/2023.

I say that because despite winning the same amount of points after 13 games two years ago, Arsenal were only two points clear of Man City.


I agree with you in so far that Leicester’s title win is hard to compare with anything else because of how unprecedented it was. I suppose from my perspective it’s about them potentially winning a title that hitherto no one thought they were realistically capable of and unlike other people, I’m still yet to be convinced that they are, whilst I did not expect them to be 9 points clear I did say that because they had much easier fixtures (especially compared to ours) that it was possible that that for some time their league position might seem deceptive.

I of course accept the argument Letters makes that you still have to win the games you’re expected to.


Also I don’t really think what I said about Liverpool contradicts what I’ve said now which is that they are a well run club. That I dismissed them as title contenders for this season doesn’t really diminish that, because when running a club sustainably you do to a degree need to look at the bigger picture. With the exception of the odd season here or there they have been a model of consistency, and they have been taking a much more gradual approach to phasing out ageing players with newer ones.

I don’t think Gakpo, Nunez are as good as Firminho and Mane, but who knows if both will significantly improve

[HCZ_Reborn]

If I was to compare Arsenal to any other sporting entity at the moment, it would be Nigel Mansell in the mid-late 1980s. A lot of wins but ultimately little to show for it. My ambition certainly runs higher than the single title he won at the last

And using the same parallel with Liverpool, if they do win the title they will be more in the Alan Jones or Keke Rosberg bracket than Prost or Senna.

[Mac76]

Sorry Mac, I can't agree with you less, especially on him using the unfair red cards as a get out of jail card.

Let me make it clear, IMO all our red cards were unfair. However, there is a culture that Arteta has instilled in the team of wasting time when we are ahead. Even on Saturday, our players were still delaying freekicks and doing the same things that "apparently" got Rice and Trossard sent off. However, every other team does this, but I would have expected Arteta to have coached it out of his players by now, since we've been targeted as the designated fall guy for this unsportsmanlike behaviour. Mark my words, we will still get someone else sent off for this...and that will be totally Arteta's fault for being a poor leader.

Anyway, like you also mentioned, playing with 10 men is not a death sentence and like you have all preached to HCZ, injuries and luck usually go round in a 38 game season, thus at least with the injuries part, you should have made adequate preparations.

I can't even imagine what would happen if Saka got injured for the rest of the season or where we would finish. That stupid over reliance on a single player (like what happened with Odegaard) is bad management. He had the Saliba season to learn from that mistake and has clearly over fortified the defence in response to that. Why he wouldn't have attempted to even try something similar for the attack beats my imagination.

Sure the preparations point is valid, we did need another forward/winger if we were going to lose all of ESR, Vieira and Nelson and while I'm not as down on Sterling as some, he clearly wasn't the answer and Jesus can't score for toffee

That said there are sometimes almost irreplaceable players - think Rodri, Salah or in the past KDB - but you do need to have a better Plan B than we had without Odegaard, again especially without ESR, if nothing else Nwaneri could have been used a bit more

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

My argument back then was that it seemed silly to me to assume that Liverpool would finish above us especially given how they’d finished comfortably below us the two proceeding seasons, that they had not significantly strengthened and to top it all they had a new coach which invariably when a new coach replaces a coach that has been there sometime it doesn’t lend itself well to immediate success..........

I don’t think Gakpo, Nunez are as good as Firminho and Mane, but who knows if both will significantly improve

The parts above are probably true and hard to disagree with.

Like you, I don't think they've got a better squad than us ( maybe a more balanced one though) but if it was solely about the squads, the Citehs and Chelseas would have won every league title for the last 20 years.

Anyway, the team I saw on Saturday looks determined and fearless.....the hunger in their eyes is something I did not see coming at the beginning of the season, especially with the supposed demise of "heavy metal' football with Klopp going.


I always felt the players saw him as some sort of great leader, their X factor, but its beginning to look like in his latter years he was holding some players back, e.g. Sallah.

In short, I believe their success has been down to being managed properly, and Slott, at the moment, squeezing out the best from what he's got. I do not think their early fixtures is the main reason they are at the top, they've played well and been in good form.

But I still think, or should I say hope, something will happen and they don't end up with the tittle.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Sure the preparations point is valid, we did need another forward/winger if we were going to lose all of ESR, Vieira and Nelson and while I'm not as down on Sterling as some, he clearly wasn't the answer and Jesus can't score for toffee

That said there are sometimes almost irreplaceable players - think Rodri, Salah or in the past KDB - but you do need to have a better Plan B than we had without Odegaard, again especially without ESR, if nothing else Nwaneri could have been used a bit more

I actually think how we played without Odegaard cost us more than the red cards....

[Mac76]

The parts above are probably true and hard to disagree with.

Like you, I don't think they've got a better squad than us ( maybe a more balanced one though) but if it was solely about the squads, the Citehs and Chelseas would have won every league title for the last 20 years.

Anyway, the team I saw on Saturday looks determined and fearless.....the hunger in their eyes is something I did not see coming at the beginning of the season, especially with the supposed demise of "heavy metal' football with Klopp going.


I always felt the players saw him as some sort of great leader, their X factor, but its beginning to look like in his latter years he was holding some players back, e.g. Sallah.

In short, I believe there success has been down to being managed properly, and Slott, at the moment, squeezing out the best from what he's got. I do not think their early fixtures is the main reason they are at the top, they've played well and been in good form.

But I still think, or should I say hope, something will happen and they don't end up with the tittle.

Sallah, Slott and tittle :lol:

You need to cut down on your double letters

But I think Slot has taken the relentlessness out of Klopp's approach to allow the players to keep up the pace and that could well be an advantage even if they don't look as exciting and some of the results are closer

Imagine what this guy will do when he can shape the team a bit more

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sallah, Slott and tittle :lol:

You need to cut down on your double letters

But I think Slot has taken the relentlessness out of Klopp's approach to allow the players to keep up the pace and that could well be an advantage even if they don't look as exciting and some of the results are closer

Imagine what this guy will do when he can shape the team a bit more

See this is where I completely disagree.

I think he tried that approach in the first few games and then they looked lethargic and ultimately toothless against Forest. I think since then he’s reverted to type with the high intensity game. Basically been smart enough not to try and massively change what has been for Liverpool a winning formula.

I think every now and again the languid style of the Dutchman creeps in (first half against Southampton) but the high pressing, high intensity style that’s been inculcated in these players by Klopp reasserts itself


Hard to know why Klopp stepped down, could be family issues could have been that he was tired of getting ridiculous points totals yet still finishing behind City. If the latter he should have shown patience.

As much as i think we should have beaten Liverpool back in October, I think Klopp would have smelt blood and taken us to school. But he’s a top, top coach (in my view probably the best coach the premier league has seen in years)

And if Klopp was still in charge, I think I’d have given up on the title with nine point gap

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Sallah, Slott and tittle :lol:

You need to cut down on your double letters

But I think Slot has taken the relentlessness out of Klopp's approach to allow the players to keep up the pace and that could well be an advantage even if they don't look as exciting and some of the results are closer

Imagine what this guy will do when he can shape the team a bit more

:lol: I've obviously not done my usual Haalaand thing for a while....

Though I think Slot has done remarkably well with Klopp's team, Maresca has done the same with mainly Poochs players. Though its early days, we might see the same from Amorim.

So going back to the earlier debate on keeping managers and building with them for like 3-4 years, I am beginning to think that kind of "Stability" is vastly overrated and the Real Madrid model seems to be the way to deal with the modern superstars.

[Letters]

Apart from anything else after 13 games it’s not actually all that impressive…
I am also looking at the wider context of them winning every game in the CL too. Winning 18 games out of 20 isn't to be dismissed lightly.


Saying I think being 9 points clear flatters them a bit
There's two things about that. Firstly you're claiming they've been a bit fortunate in some games. I can believe that, but I don't believe that winning 18 out of 20 games in all competitions at the start of a season can just be luck - I know that's not what you're claiming but even if they have got a bit lucky on occasions, there does seem to be more about Liverpool than I expected pre-season. And secondly I do think it's fair to say that the size of the gap is in part because of us dropping some silly points. Had we not done so we'd be closer.


I think they are being overhyped for winning games that largely in the course of a season they’d be expected to win and that they haven’t properly been tested yet and we will see where they are when they are. Isn’t even miles removed from how I’d have assessed Arsenal two years ago and yet I’m being stubborn and harsh.
No…I’m just not prepared to jump the gun like everyone else is. And you read it like I’m saying “oh they are shit, they are Only where they are because they’ve fluked it”
The thing I'm surprised about is you don't seem to have changed your pre-season stance an inch, before the season started you said:


Liverpool aren’t going to do anything. They only challenged last season because Klopp was by some way the best manager in the league. This Dutch guy won the league with Feyenoord season before last, I’d be surprised if they finish top four to be honest. Unless we fuck up badly, it’s going to be us and City making up the top two

You surely can't stand by that, even if you think Liverpool have got a bit fortunate here and there and are in a false position because of their easier fixtures. And regarding the second point, I did a bit of fairly crude analysis and I think objectively we have had the harder start. I had a look at the average league position of the teams we've played - I used last season's finishing positions and put in 21 for a promoted side.

At home the average league position of the teams Liverpool have played is 9.57, ours is 14.5 - we have played two of the promoted sides, so at home I'd say they've had harder games, but they have had home advantage of course. Away though the average for them is 12.67 and ours is 6.29 - they've travelled to two of the promoted sides and other than Arsenal they've not played anyone in last season's top 6. We've already had to go away to 4 of the teams in last season's top 6 and we've also played Newcastle who finished 7th. So there is clearly hope if we can go on a run.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Guess what? I don’t care what Liverpool is doing in any other competition right now, because it has no direct impact on us. And more so it has no relevance to the discussion. We are talking about Liverpool and their current league position in the Premier League, not how they are doing in the Champions League and not how they are doing in the league cup.


As for my prediction involving the three clubs Liverpool, City and Us earlier, that’s clearly been endangered to Panda levels by City’s drop off. I wouldn’t rule it out entirely but yeah that particular prediction probably doesn’t stand up.


But I’d say to you what I said in reply to Mac earlier, if Klopp was still in charge of this team and nine points clear I’d be no where near as bullish. I don’t think the football is as good as it was under Klopp, and I think when Klopp’s teams went on a run the pace and power meant that they could intimidate sides and you would think where is the next dropped points coming from. I don’t feel the same with this bald guy, I think whilst he’s sensibly trying largely to keep to the Klopp formula, his languid style creeps in

[HCZ_Reborn]

Also don’t be stubborn, if you have time to look up statistics you have time to watch matches. Match of the Day is on IPlayer…watch the four games I have cited and tell me if you still think I’m being uncharitable.

[Letters]

Guess what? I don’t care what Liverpool is doing in any other competition right now, because it has no direct impact on us. And more so it has no relevance to the discussion. We are talking about Liverpool and their current league position in the Premier League, not how they are doing in the Champions League and not how they are doing in the league cup.
I think it's relevant as it speaks to their level and whether it's where I expected it to be pre-season. I scoffed at the thought that they'd either seriously challenge us or City but here we are, clear at the top of the table and top of the CL "table" too. It's certainly possible they won't sustain this run - probable, even. We agree they have tougher tests to come. Whether we can go on a run good enough to capitalise remains to be seen. A game we should be winning tomorrow but with the new manager effect it's a definite banana skin.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think it's relevant as it speaks to their level and whether it's where I expected it to be pre-season. I scoffed at the thought that they'd either seriously challenge us or City but here we are, clear at the top of the table and top of the CL "table" too. It's certainly possible they won't sustain this run - probable, even. We agree they have tougher tests to come. Whether we can go on a run good enough to capitalise remains to be seen. A game we should be winning tomorrow but with the new manager effect it's a definite banana skin.


But it’s not that relevant at all, because the two things don’t always correspond. Teams can do well in Europe but terrible in the league (like us in 2005-2006 and of course Liverpool the previous season) and also Liverpool have historical pedigree in Europe. I don’t think one informs the other.

I can see how it’s relevant to you, because you don’t want to let go and you need it to bolster whatever you think your argument is now.

Anyway basically we have easier games than Liverpool between now and December 31st, and at our best we are better than them….so I’m relatively hopeful of eating into that lead….and to be clear in a way I wouldn’t be if a) we were chasing Man City at their apex and b) I wouldn’t be if Klopp was managing Liverpool still

[HCZ_Reborn]

Vardy has put Van Thoroughbred’s Leicester City ahead against the Ammers

[HCZ_Reborn]

3-1 in the end. Fullkrug gets his first league goal for West Ham. Assuming he’s been out injured ?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Southampton 0-1 Chelsea, Disasi.

Man City 1-0 Forest, Bernardo Silva.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Southampton 1-1 Chelsea, Aribo!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Mac Allister hits the post!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Everton 1-0 Wolves, Ashley Young.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Everton 1-0 Wolves, Ashley Young.

No one whose career start when I was at university should still be playing professional football

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Southampton 1-2 Chelsea, Nkunku.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Newcastle 1-0 Liverpool, Isak!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Man City 2-0 Forest, De Bruyne.

What a chance for Gordon.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Van Dijk looking for a red.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Everton 2-0 Wolves, Mangala.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Villa 1-0 Brentford, Rogers.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Newcastle 1-1 Liverpool, Jones.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Villa 2-0 Brentford, Watkins pelanty.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Man City 3-0 Forest, Doku

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Villa 3-0 Brentford, Cash

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Newcastle 2-1 Liverpool, Gordon!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Newcastle 2-2 Liverpool, Salah.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Newcastle 2-3 Liverpool, Salah again.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Southampton 1-4 Chelsea, Palmer.

Everton 4-0 Wolves, Dawson with two OGs

[HCZ_Reborn]

Newcastle 2-3 Liverpool, Salah again.

The one man show continues

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Newcastle 3-3 Liverpool, Schar! Wow.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Newcastle 3-3 Liverpool, Schar! Wow.

Such a pity, when Sky sports commentary were having such a wonderful time on their knees fellating Liverpool

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-5 Chelsea, Sancho.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Villa 3-1 Brentford, Damsgaard

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Tottenham v Chelsea on the weekend.

Set up for pure Spursy

[Letters]

Tottenham v Chelsea on the weekend.

Set up for pure Spursy

I don’t know what Spursy is in this instance.
Winning to do Arsenal a favour?

[WMUG]

Wish they could've been a bit more Spursy last year if so <_<

[Letters]

They're impossible to predict. They're certainly capable of getting something.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I will certainly be supporting them to get all three points against both Chelsea and Liverpool

Speaking of Liverpool. At the risk of sounding magnanimous, in respect of talking about them being lucky. If anything they were probably unlucky last night, they probably as much as I hate to say it deserved the win.

I could say that without Salah they’d be nowhere, but fact is they do have Salah and he is on fire currently


What I’d say though is that the lack of goals they’ve conceded up until now has been in my mind a bit deceptive as I certainly don’t think they are defensively better than us. We haven’t conceded more than two goals in a league game since May 2023 or at all in over a year

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I will certainly be supporting them to get all three points against both Chelsea and Liverpool

Speaking of Liverpool. At the risk of sounding magnanimous, in respect of talking about them being lucky. If anything they were probably unlucky last night, they probably as much as I hate to say it deserved the win.

I could say that without Salah they’d be nowhere, but fact is they do have Salah and he is on fire currently


What I’d say though is that the lack of goals they’ve conceded up until now has been in my mind a bit deceptive as I certainly don’t think they are defensively better than us. We haven’t conceded more than two goals in a league game since May 2023 or at all in over a year

Konate being out does help weaken their defence though.... still struggling to believe Pep wasn't smart enough to take advantage of that.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fulham 1-0 Brighton, Iwobi.

GOAT. :bow:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Bournemouth 1-0 Tottenham

Huijsen

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Bournemouth 1-0 Spuds. :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I was a bit behind on seeing that, not watching it.

Worth mentioning again though.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fulham 1-1 Brighton, Baleba.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fulham 2-1 Brighton, Bassey!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fulham 2-1 Brighton, Bassey!

Brighton have not beaten Fulham in the premier league in 8 previous attempts

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fulham 3-1 Brighton, O'Riley OG.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fulham 3-1 Brighton, O'Riley OG.

The O’Riley OG was the Bassey goal

This one is Iwobi’s second

[HCZ_Reborn]

1-0 FT Bournemouth-Spurs

Will Crocodile Greeky last the season?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Spuds. :haha:

[HCZ_Reborn]

26 8 18 under Ange Postecoglou

The model of consistent inconsistency

[Letters]

Spuds. :haha:

:gp:

They really are a random results generator.